MICHELLE OBAMA: This Is What Scares Me Most In Today’s America! (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) to whom much is given, much is expected. (00:00:03) The guilt comes from am I doing enough? (00:00:05) Me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a (00:00:08) therapist. So, let's unpack that. Former (00:00:10) first lady Michelle Obama and someone (00:00:12) who knows her best, her big brother, (00:00:15) Craig, will be hosting a podcast called (00:00:17) IMO. What have been your personal (00:00:19) journeys with therapy? We need to be (00:00:22) coached throughout our lives. My mom (00:00:25) wanted us to be independent children and (00:00:28) she would always tell me, "Stop worrying (00:00:31) about your sister." Having been the (00:00:33) first lady of the entire country and (00:00:36) representing the country in the world, I (00:00:38) couldn't afford to have that kind of (00:00:40) disdain. What would you say has been the (00:00:42) most hardest recent test of fear? I'm (00:00:46) going to make him start so that I don't (00:00:48) start crying. (00:00:49) [Music] (00:00:53) The number one health and wellness (00:00:55) podcast, J Shetty. J Shetty, the one, (00:00:58) the only J Shetty. (00:01:02) Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose, (00:01:04) the place you come to become happier, (00:01:07) healthier, and more healed. Today's (00:01:09) guests are two of my favorite people. (00:01:12) I'm so grateful and excited to welcome (00:01:14) one of them back and one of them for the (00:01:16) first time ever. I'm speaking about none (00:01:19) other than Michelle Obama and Craig (00:01:21) Robinson. Welcome. (00:01:25) The dynamic duo. I always say it's like (00:01:28) you you're my most favorite interview (00:01:30) ever. Period. Oh my gosh. That's that's (00:01:33) saying a lot. Oh my gosh. Wow. You're (00:01:36) going to make me cry. I'm like that's so (00:01:38) sweet. Oh my gosh. She's the one who (00:01:40) turned me on to you. So This is like old (00:01:42) home week. I know. Thank you both. But (00:01:44) honestly, I'm so grateful. Uh I was just (00:01:46) thinking when I was preparing for this, (00:01:48) I was like, I wish my sister was in town (00:01:51) because then we could have double (00:01:52) interviewed. All right, we we're going (00:01:54) to play next time. We want to do that. (00:01:56) She would have killed me if I did that (00:01:58) to her cuz she's not on camera. (00:02:01) She's an optometrist in London. The (00:02:04) best. Yeah. She could have checked your (00:02:06) eyes for you happily. She's 4 and 1/2 (00:02:08) years younger than me. And and I still (00:02:10) remember the moment. Well, I don't (00:02:12) remember the moment. It's interesting. (00:02:14) I've seen a picture of me holding her (00:02:16) when she was born and I was like 4 and a (00:02:18) half, 5 years old. And so I had this (00:02:20) memory that I held her when she was born (00:02:23) and we've been inseparable ever since. (00:02:25) Jay, you're going to have to when she (00:02:27) comes to town, just don't tell her. Just (00:02:30) tell us and we'll come back and we can (00:02:33) just ambush her. Oh, I love Yeah, she (00:02:36) she will kill me. But we have one of (00:02:37) those pictures, too. my favorite family (00:02:40) picture. Um, uh, I was a newborn. I was (00:02:44) maybe 10 months, but I was one of these (00:02:46) big fat round puppy babies and a bonnet (00:02:50) and a white dress. And my dad was in a (00:02:52) suit and a bow tie. And mom, my mom had (00:02:55) the be most beautiful uh, tunic dress on (00:02:58) and Craig sat on her lap. I was on my (00:03:01) dad's lap. And um I I have this little (00:03:04) fat arm and he's in a little bow tie and (00:03:07) he's holding on to my arm and looking at (00:03:10) the camera like you better not you know (00:03:14) he seems so concerned you know he was (00:03:17) about 2 years old. Can we get the look? (00:03:19) I I was worried. I had this (00:03:23) just going Hold on. Cuz I was worried (00:03:26) that I don't know what they're going to (00:03:28) do to my sister. But that that picture (00:03:30) epitomizes our relationship. He is (00:03:34) always been my quiet protector just and (00:03:38) that sweet little face. Um yeah, he is (00:03:41) the ultimate big brother. Uh and he's (00:03:43) been by my side holding my arm like that (00:03:46) for my entire life. Wow. I love that. (00:03:49) And do you actually remember? Do you (00:03:50) remember the moment or it's the picture (00:03:52) that you remember? It's like yours. It's (00:03:54) the picture. I don't and I remember back (00:03:56) to when I was three and four some (00:03:58) things, but that when I don't, but when (00:04:01) I see the picture, it just warms my (00:04:03) heart every time I see it. Yeah, I love (00:04:05) that. I mean, sibling relationships, as (00:04:07) I said in mine as well, my sister and I (00:04:09) are so close and we haven't lived in the (00:04:11) same country for 9 years now, but we (00:04:15) talk and stay in touch and we're (00:04:16) constantly connected. And I wanted to (00:04:18) start by asking you this question for (00:04:19) both of you that I feel like the first (00:04:22) time me and my sister got close is when (00:04:24) I shared a secret with her. And I was (00:04:26) wondering what was the first secret that (00:04:29) you ever told each other as as early as (00:04:32) it was uh as silly as it was that you (00:04:34) remember sharing something in confidence (00:04:37) in the beginning early days of your (00:04:39) relationship. Okay. Now, you did this to (00:04:41) me when you came on our show. That is a (00:04:44) question I've never been asked. I love (00:04:47) it. I love it. All right. You got me (00:04:49) back. You got me back. Okay. A secret. A (00:04:53) secret. I don't know if it was a secret, (00:04:56) but it was a what felt like a secret (00:04:59) practice of ours. Like we shared a room (00:05:03) um for most of our lives. And there came (00:05:07) a point in time when our parents because (00:05:09) we didn't have a lot of money thought (00:05:11) it's time for them to have their own (00:05:12) room. So they took this one big room and (00:05:15) our grandfather's southside who was a (00:05:18) jackle carpenter built plywood a plywood (00:05:22) tea wall that went down the middle of (00:05:24) the the this one bedroom and broke the (00:05:27) room into two little units that were big (00:05:30) enough for a twin bed and a desk and one (00:05:33) of those accordion doors, right? That (00:05:35) was those were our rooms and it was that (00:05:38) old paneling look. So, it was it was (00:05:41) that fake wood that was like and the and (00:05:43) the ceiling didn't go all the way to the (00:05:45) top of the roof. And there was a little (00:05:46) crack in between the rooms by the window (00:05:49) sill. And when we were supposed to be in (00:05:51) bed, we would spend that whole night (00:05:54) just talking in between the walls, (00:05:56) right? We were supposed to be asleep, (00:05:58) but Craig could go, "Me, Meech, are you (00:06:02) awake?" I'd be like, "No." (00:06:05) And then we'd have some deep (00:06:07) conversation about life and you know (00:06:09) every now and mom mom would yell go to (00:06:13) bed you're supposed to be asleep and we (00:06:15) giggle and we just keep talking. Um so I (00:06:19) think we shared the secret of not going (00:06:20) to bed but having our own little (00:06:23) breakdown of the day. I don't even (00:06:25) remember what we talked about but we (00:06:28) were supposed to be talking but we were (00:06:29) constantly talking. So I can't think of (00:06:31) a secret. So I can think of a secret. (00:06:33) Okay. So this is the discovery of Santa (00:06:37) Claus. Oh yes, that's a good one. So we (00:06:42) Jay, as you know, we lived in a two (00:06:44) family home. We lived on the top floor, (00:06:47) very small apartment. Our great aunt (00:06:50) Robbie and uncle uh Terry lived (00:06:53) downstairs. (00:06:55) And in our basement, which wasn't (00:06:57) finished, it was a concrete basement, (00:06:59) pillars, washing machine, furnace, a (00:07:02) storage room. But then there was a table (00:07:05) that was like a workbench and a (00:07:07) refrigerator that didn't work or it (00:07:09) wasn't plugged in. It was an old (00:07:10) refrigerator. Old time refrigerator. And (00:07:13) we used to go down there and play and (00:07:15) play. We played hockey. We'd ride our (00:07:17) bikes. We'd do all kinds of stuff. And (00:07:19) Meech was down there once by herself and (00:07:23) came running upstairs. Craig, Craig, (00:07:26) come here. Come here. Come here. And she (00:07:28) took me downstairs. She opens up the (00:07:32) refrigerator and (00:07:34) there are two empty boxes for boxing (00:07:38) gloves. (00:07:39) Now, this is June or July. Yeah. Little (00:07:42) kids boxing gloves. We got boxing gloves (00:07:45) for Christmas the year before. Oh, okay. (00:07:48) So, and she deduced the gloves were (00:07:51) here. Santa wouldn't leave gloves. Glove (00:07:55) boxes. Glove boxes. Cuz our our mom (00:07:58) didn't wrap the presents. She set them (00:08:00) under the tree as if Santa had just (00:08:02) brought toys and didn't wrap them. And I (00:08:05) remember Meech saying, "Mom and dad are (00:08:09) Santa Claus." (00:08:11) But then the secret was we weren't going (00:08:13) to tell them that we knew because first (00:08:15) of all, we didn't want to disappoint (00:08:17) them. Oh yeah. You know, cuz it's like (00:08:19) what a blunder, right? So we sort of (00:08:22) kept it to ourselves that for a good (00:08:25) year or two, we knew there wasn't a (00:08:26) Santa Claus and just played along. You (00:08:28) played along. We played along. We played (00:08:30) along. Isn't that just That's so funny. (00:08:32) It's like living a lie. That's really (00:08:35) And And do your parents know that? Like (00:08:38) we finally told They told the story. (00:08:40) Yeah. How did they feel when you told (00:08:41) them? They were mad at our aunt Robbie. (00:08:44) My mom was in particular because she was (00:08:46) like, "I told her not to keep those (00:08:47) glove boxes." She was supposed to throw (00:08:50) those. My My mom was furious because my (00:08:52) mom took Christmas very seriously. I (00:08:55) mean, she decorated the house. She (00:08:57) created a chimney where there wasn't (00:08:58) one. She was very crafty. She She really (00:09:02) took great joy in keeping this Santa (00:09:04) Claus myth alive. And the fact that our (00:09:07) aunt Robbie spoiled it for us sooner (00:09:10) than she was ready to, she was not (00:09:12) happy. It's always (00:09:14) an some aunt the aunt that didn't have (00:09:16) kids and didn't really appreciate it and (00:09:18) she cared more about saving a couple of (00:09:20) boxes than, you know, keeping the magic (00:09:23) of Christmas alive. Oh, that's amazing. (00:09:25) So yeah, that was a good one. That is a (00:09:27) good one. That's why it's good to have (00:09:28) him here cuz I wouldn't have remembered (00:09:29) that at all. That's what's so beautiful (00:09:31) about this this relationship. And it's (00:09:33) interesting you both said cuz we did the (00:09:34) same thing. So me and my sister shared a (00:09:36) room as well. And it's so interesting to (00:09:38) hear about I I talked to a lot of (00:09:40) siblings and some are not close to each (00:09:41) other and some are very close to each (00:09:43) other and you see that pattern in people (00:09:45) who shared a room who talked about (00:09:47) something every night connected and (00:09:50) that's how I think me and my sister got (00:09:51) used to talking to each other because (00:09:53) that's who you dissected the day with. (00:09:56) Exactly. Uh even if it wasn't very deep (00:09:58) and profound at the time, we were stuck (00:10:00) with each other for better or for worse. (00:10:03) I I love that. What was what would you (00:10:05) say was something that you felt a value (00:10:09) that you learned at that early stage in (00:10:11) your life that you both feel you've kept (00:10:13) till today? Like something that's (00:10:15) continued to be a part of who you are (00:10:17) today. My mom wanted us to be (00:10:20) independent children. And she would (00:10:23) always tell (00:10:25) me, "Stop worrying about your sister." (00:10:28) Because whenever I did something, I (00:10:31) wanted to include her. If I was going (00:10:33) outside and she was outside, I felt like (00:10:35) I had to keep an eye on her. I felt like (00:10:38) I had to protect her. And my (00:10:41) mom always said to not do that. (00:10:46) Interesting. First of all, she didn't (00:10:48) want Meech to have to feel like she was (00:10:51) being looked after by her brother. (00:10:54) That's what her parents were for. And (00:10:55) she didn't want me to have to worry (00:10:57) about her. Mhm. But I will say (00:11:00) that I couldn't stop worrying about her. (00:11:04) So, I have been looking after her from (00:11:07) the time she was a little kid and I was (00:11:09) holding her arm. We ended up at in (00:11:12) college together at Princeton. And you (00:11:14) remember when we drove to South (00:11:15) Carolina? Uhhuh. Yeah. We rented a car (00:11:18) for spring break. For spring break and (00:11:20) drove to South Carolina and to visit our (00:11:22) grandparents just moved down there. They (00:11:24) had moved down there from Chicago and we (00:11:27) thought we'd surprise them. And the two (00:11:29) of us were going to drive, but I was so (00:11:32) worried about her driving that I tried (00:11:35) to drive the entire way by myself. And (00:11:38) you know, 6 hours he's starting to (00:11:41) blink. Like I'm like, "Are you okay?" (00:11:43) He's like, "I got I got it. I got it." (00:11:44) And I was like, "You know, I can drive." (00:11:46) She's very capable and a very good (00:11:48) driver, but I was, you know, me and Mr. (00:11:50) Worry. So, finally, I I had to just take (00:11:52) it out. I just I have to go to sleep. I (00:11:55) was like, "Well, pull over. I can do (00:11:57) this." I drove us the rest of the way. (00:11:59) Drove the rest of the way. But at every (00:12:01) 15 minutes after I fall asleep, I'd be (00:12:03) like, "Are you okay? Are you okay? Yeah, (00:12:05) I'm awake." It's like, "Are you okay? (00:12:07) It's fine." (00:12:09) Well, for me, the value it's the value (00:12:12) of family. It's the value of there's no (00:12:15) one you can count on more than, you (00:12:18) know, your your siblings and your mom (00:12:20) and your dad. And I feel for people who (00:12:23) were raised with sibling turmoil, you (00:12:26) know, uh or turmoil in their household (00:12:29) where they didn't feel safe at home. And (00:12:32) that was never the case. We felt poor, (00:12:35) you know, we felt like we didn't always (00:12:38) get the stuff that we wanted, but we (00:12:41) always felt and and it wasn't just our (00:12:43) nuclear family. Our we grew up in a big (00:12:47) community of family. We're fortunate (00:12:49) enough to be uh raised with all four of (00:12:52) our grandparents. Um they all lived (00:12:55) within a couple of mile radius of us. Um (00:12:59) even though our maternal grandparents (00:13:01) were separated, they lived in separate (00:13:03) households around the corner from each (00:13:05) other. Oh wow. Um which was around the (00:13:07) corner from us. Right. Right. Cousins (00:13:09) and uncles and aunts. And when times (00:13:12) were down, people would share homes. I (00:13:15) remember when we were little and (00:13:16) Southside, our our our mother's father (00:13:19) who lived with a couple of her sisters, (00:13:22) their house burned down. Their apartment (00:13:24) did. And I remember being really little (00:13:27) and there was a discussion or how are we (00:13:29) going to help people out until they (00:13:31) found a new place to live. And so two of (00:13:34) our aunts, Carolyn and there was someone (00:13:37) else stayed in our little apartment and (00:13:40) she worked nights but she slept in my (00:13:43) bed and I didn't even really know it (00:13:45) because she would come in and just push (00:13:46) me over and sleep in bed with me which (00:13:49) was next to Craig's bed. Um it was just (00:13:52) this when when family's in trouble, you (00:13:55) step up. Um and I think to this day (00:13:58) throughout uh all our travels, (00:14:02) travailes, being in the White House, we (00:14:04) retained that. No matter what was going (00:14:07) on in his life or mine, we had some (00:14:11) rituals. You know, we did Thanksgiving (00:14:13) together. His family came to the Easter (00:14:15) egg roll. My niece and nephew, his (00:14:18) oldest kids. Whenever we had an (00:14:20) interesting trip in the summer, Avery (00:14:22) and Leslie always came with us. So, it (00:14:25) wasn't just me, Malia, and Sasha on (00:14:27) Brightar, the first lady's plane, seeing (00:14:30) Nelson Mandela or going on Safari or (00:14:34) going to see going to Rome, but Avery (00:14:37) and Leslie came with us. So it just made (00:14:41) the whole experience feel like we (00:14:43) weren't on some island just doing this (00:14:45) really hard thing, but we were still (00:14:47) doing it as a as a family. So family (00:14:50) values I I think is probably one of the (00:14:53) strongest things we took away and and we (00:14:56) made it happen in that little house on (00:14:57) 74th in Ucllet. It was just brimming (00:15:00) with with love and conversation and (00:15:04) trust. I'm 60 years old. I've finished a (00:15:08) really hard thing in my life with my (00:15:10) family intact. I'm an empty neester. And (00:15:13) now for the first time, as I've said (00:15:15) before, every choice that I'm making is (00:15:18) completely mine. My mom always said that (00:15:21) it's not my life. It's not my failure. (00:15:24) It's not my homework. It's not my going (00:15:27) to school. It's yours. I told Barack, I (00:15:30) was like, you know, we either do this (00:15:32) stuff early and deal with it. have these (00:15:34) hard kind of conversations, deal with (00:15:37) these mistakes and failures when they're (00:15:39) 10 and five and 13 rather than having (00:15:42) them live in our basement at 35 for the (00:15:46) rest of their lives. Do you want (00:15:48) healthy, great-looking skin without (00:15:50) spending a ton of time on it? If you (00:15:52) answered yes, and let's be honest, who (00:15:53) wouldn't? Dove Men Plus Care Body and (00:15:56) Face Scrub is your ultimate hack for (00:15:58) effortless skin care. When I say hack, I (00:16:01) mean it. This scrub does it all. (00:16:03) exfoliates, cleanses, and moisturizes (00:16:05) all in one simple step. No extra steps, (00:16:08) no hassle, just better looking skin made (00:16:10) easy. Plus, it's made with natural (00:16:13) essential oils. It's vegan and free from (00:16:15) parabens and sulfates. Designed (00:16:18) specifically for men's skin, so it does (00:16:20) exactly what you need it to. The best (00:16:22) part, it's easy. Your skin will look (00:16:24) better, feel better, and it won't take (00:16:26) up more than a moment of your day. Just (00:16:28) hack your grooming routine and add the (00:16:30) Dove Men Plus Care Scrub into your (00:16:32) shower. Yeah, I love that. I remember (00:16:34) last time we were together, you were (00:16:36) talking about just the kitchen table and (00:16:38) just the gathering of minds and family (00:16:41) and how important that is. And Craig, I (00:16:42) know your birthday is coming up too, (00:16:44) like (00:16:45) it. Thanks for remembering 21st. Yeah, (00:16:48) absolutely. Happy 21st birthday, but (00:16:51) were birthdays a big part of connecting (00:16:53) over the years as well or has that not (00:16:55) been? cuz that for my sister is like the (00:16:57) biggest day. She's like, "My birthday is (00:17:00) really important. Do not miss my (00:17:02) birthday." Like I know. Well, we never (00:17:04) missed birthdays and we always (00:17:07) celebrated birthdays, but they weren't a (00:17:10) big deal like where we had a party. Like (00:17:12) I think you had one or two birthday (00:17:15) parties. And this is the tripped out (00:17:17) thing about this generation. Like kids (00:17:19) have parties every year and multiple (00:17:21) parties. They're blowout, you know? It's (00:17:23) a birthday month now. birthday month and (00:17:25) you're renting something and you're (00:17:27) catering and you know I think like our (00:17:30) generation you had maybe 13 maybe five (00:17:34) years old you had two parties and they (00:17:36) were at your house in the kitchen table (00:17:38) you know with your cousins and you (00:17:39) played pin the tail on the donkey in the (00:17:41) yard or somewhere like that but but as a (00:17:44) family we celebrated everybody's (00:17:46) birthday and it was a big deal and every (00:17:49) now and then that community of relatives (00:17:51) that were around us would come over and (00:17:53) it didn't matter what the day if it was (00:17:55) Thursday and everybody had to go to work (00:17:58) on Friday, they would come over and sing (00:18:00) happy birthday, gift cards out. (00:18:02) Birthdays were always celebrated in our (00:18:04) family. They weren't like big like see (00:18:07) me bring me gifts, but it was a time (00:18:10) together. Yeah. Uh and we're talking (00:18:12) about the extended family. So my mother (00:18:15) uh had seven brothers and sisters and (00:18:19) then the cousins and then our (00:18:21) grandfather. We were always at (00:18:23) Southside's house for these birthdays (00:18:25) cuz that's the side of the family that (00:18:26) did it. Every there was a dinner and (00:18:30) cards for every birthday for all those (00:18:33) people, you know. Wow. It's a lot of (00:18:35) people. So, it's almost like every (00:18:36) weekend we were celebrating somebody's (00:18:39) birthday. That's amazing. What What's (00:18:41) been something that you've an idea that (00:18:43) you've had to unlearn since you were (00:18:46) younger? Something that you've kind of (00:18:47) had to let go of as time has gone on? (00:18:50) something that was important before, but (00:18:53) you're like, "No, it's not so (00:18:55) important." Me talked about our (00:18:58) grandfather's apartment being on fire. (00:19:02) Fire back then in the 70s was a real (00:19:06) thing. Like houses caught on fire. (00:19:09) People didn't have smoke, especially in (00:19:11) working-class poor communities. You (00:19:13) didn't have smoke detectors. Smoke (00:19:14) detectors. So, I think we knew several (00:19:16) kids whose homes caught on fire. (00:19:20) And I had to unlearn worrying about our (00:19:25) house being on fire. I mean, I grew up (00:19:28) completely obsessed with being able (00:19:32) to recognize if the house was going to (00:19:35) be on fire, number one, and then having (00:19:37) the ability to get everyone out. And (00:19:39) you, you know, our dad had MS and so he (00:19:42) he he walked with a limp from the time I (00:19:46) could remember. He then had a cane and (00:19:48) then he had the crutches that went (00:19:50) around his arm and I would (00:19:52) practice dragging him with his should (00:19:56) with my arms under his shoulders around (00:19:58) the house and he would I know it was (00:20:01) humiliating but he'd let me do it and my (00:20:05) mom would be like, "Craig, put Frasier (00:20:08) down. Just stop doing that." And I (00:20:10) wanted to make sure I could drag him (00:20:12) through the house and we had like 14 (00:20:14) stairs down to get out. I didn't drag (00:20:17) him down there, but I knew I could if I (00:20:19) had to. That's something I had to (00:20:21) unlearn because that was a real fear of (00:20:24) mine was a fear of dying in a fire. Wow. (00:20:27) Yeah. What did it take? like what was (00:20:29) the Well, what it took was I realized it (00:20:32) was irrational as I got older because (00:20:34) there were less house fires and and I (00:20:37) guess it wasn't irrational because there (00:20:39) were actually house fires, but the the (00:20:42) advent of smoke detectors and the advent (00:20:45) of sort of inflam noninflammable or what (00:20:49) is it non-inflammable (00:20:51) items around the house. I was always (00:20:53) worried about a fire starting and we had (00:20:55) a fire start in our kitchen. remember we (00:20:58) were cooking Pop-Tarts which were like (00:21:00) Saturday morning to we kind of had the (00:21:03) run of the kitchen uh cuz that was the (00:21:06) day mom would sleep in. Um and we had (00:21:09) this old toaster and we were making (00:21:11) Pop-Tarts and it caught (00:21:13) fire coming and the flame came up and (00:21:17) then sure enough you're like this is it. (00:21:19) This is it. Mom to the rescue. Mom came (00:21:21) in and put it under the sink and it was (00:21:23) over. So save the day. That I mean (00:21:24) that's a real fear. Yeah. That's Yeah. (00:21:27) But as you talk about fear, when I think (00:21:29) about things uh that I think we had to (00:21:34) subconsciously unlearn um was fear (00:21:38) because you know we grew up at a time in (00:21:40) you know just coming out of the the deep (00:21:43) segregation of Chicago. But our parents (00:21:47) and grandparents grew up in it. You know (00:21:50) in a time when being black in the city, (00:21:53) you know, you were isolated. Um there (00:21:55) were areas of the city that you couldn't (00:21:58) go into because you could be literally (00:22:02) harmed, killed as a black person. Um (00:22:05) that was that was the truth of Chicago. (00:22:08) As I noticed in my family, fear the fear (00:22:12) of what could happen to a black man, to (00:22:15) a black person kind of consumed some of (00:22:19) our elders um and stunted their growth. (00:22:22) I mean, Southside, the grandparent that (00:22:24) I talked about, he was kind of a mama's (00:22:27) boy, you know, his mom, our (00:22:29) great-grandmother, mama, uh, (00:22:32) overprotected him. And as a result, he (00:22:35) never really got his own footing because (00:22:37) he had a mom that was going to make sure (00:22:40) you live at home, I'll take care of you. (00:22:42) Um, he also had limits as a black man (00:22:45) because he was a carpenter who wasn't (00:22:47) allowed to join the unions, uh, couldn't (00:22:49) afford to go to college. They were of (00:22:52) the generation where even if you were (00:22:54) smart and talented, the ceiling was (00:22:57) real. Um, and the dangers were real. A (00:23:00) lot of the reason our family was so (00:23:02) close, right, was because the elders (00:23:05) were keeping everybody close and they (00:23:08) were slowly passing those fears on, (00:23:11) don't go down this street, don't go on (00:23:13) this bus, maybe not take that job, don't (00:23:16) try something new because it could kill (00:23:19) you. M I think our parents tried to (00:23:22) actively unhook those those things from (00:23:26) us by pushing us out. I think they knew (00:23:30) that they had the tendency to suffocate (00:23:33) their dreams because of these fears to (00:23:36) not try new things to not draw outside (00:23:38) of the lines and I think they (00:23:41) deliberately pushed us. So there were a (00:23:44) lot of yeses in terms of experiences, (00:23:47) exposures, Craig traveling on his um uh (00:23:51) AAOU basketball league to other parts of (00:23:54) the city even, you know, cuz in a city (00:23:57) like Chicago, because of those fears, we (00:23:59) had cousins that lived on the west side (00:24:01) of the city. We lived on the south side (00:24:03) of the city in a neighborhood that was (00:24:04) right along the lake near downtown (00:24:07) Chicago. If you're a black kid growing (00:24:10) up on the west side of Chicago, we met (00:24:12) kids that had never been downtown. They (00:24:16) had never seen the lake. And if you've (00:24:18) been to Chicago, to be from Chicago and (00:24:21) never see the lake is a herculean (00:24:24) effort. But you understand it when (00:24:27) you're a black kid from the west side (00:24:29) and you're viewed with suspicion when (00:24:31) you come downtown. You don't feel (00:24:33) welcome outside of your neighborhood. So (00:24:35) your world gets smaller and smaller. I (00:24:38) think our parents did not want that (00:24:40) smallalness for us. Uh and we saw how (00:24:43) that smallalness kept some really (00:24:46) intelligent people in our lives in one (00:24:49) spot. You know, they didn't move. They (00:24:51) didn't grow. They didn't try new things. (00:24:53) I had an aunt, my mother's youngest (00:24:55) sister who recently passed this year, (00:24:58) who never came to the White House in all (00:25:00) the years that we were there. She never (00:25:03) came. Why? because she was afraid of (00:25:06) flying. She was afraid of driving too (00:25:09) long. She was afraid of doing anything (00:25:12) but leaving her house and going to work (00:25:13) and coming home. We saw that fear, (00:25:17) right? We saw saw that. And we you you (00:25:21) have to actively tell yourself a (00:25:23) different set of messages about what you (00:25:25) can expect from the world. And and we (00:25:28) also could have been limited by that (00:25:30) because while um it physically limited (00:25:33) some of our our relatives, some of our (00:25:36) grandparents' perspectives like many (00:25:38) people in this country, they were (00:25:40) backwards thinking, you know, their (00:25:42) views of white people and who they could (00:25:45) trust. You know, the same Southside (00:25:47) never went to the doctor because he (00:25:49) didn't trust doctors. So he, you know, (00:25:51) he never went to the dentist. That's (00:25:53) probably why he died in his 70s. He (00:25:55) didn't have a tooth in his head, but he (00:25:57) would never go to the dentist, you know. (00:25:59) And we would talk about these things (00:26:01) around our immediate kitchen table (00:26:03) because our parents wanted us to learn (00:26:05) from the mistakes that they had made and (00:26:07) others. And that was the power of that (00:26:09) household is I our parents talked to us (00:26:12) very openly and honestly about some of (00:26:14) the weird things you'd see at Christmas (00:26:17) dinner or some of the conversations and (00:26:19) you'd come back and go, "Well, why did (00:26:21) why did Dandy, our other grandfather, (00:26:23) say that? Why did he yell about that? (00:26:25) What was he talking about? We were (00:26:27) always allowed to question. And that (00:26:30) fear element and the the limitations on (00:26:33) people's views of the world, we would (00:26:36) see and discuss. And we were told, you (00:26:39) have to do better than that. You have to (00:26:42) live beyond that fear. You have to push (00:26:44) yourself outside of your comfort zone. (00:26:46) And I continue to try to do that, (00:26:48) instill that in my kids and other kids (00:26:50) to this day. I mean, that's such a (00:26:53) profound thing to reflect on when (00:26:56) thinking about what to unlearn because (00:26:57) it's so, as you said, it wasn't both of (00:27:00) yours, but especially this is something (00:27:02) that isn't going to change based on a (00:27:05) mindset because it exists in reality. (00:27:07) Did either of you ever have any close (00:27:10) calls or runins that Oh, yeah. that you (00:27:12) would like to share or feel comfortable (00:27:14) sharing? You were about 10 years old. I (00:27:16) was I was probably more like 12 cuz I (00:27:18) could ride to Rainbow Beach. So you (00:27:21) figure I'm 12 in our neighborhood. (00:27:23) Seventh gradeish, a department store (00:27:26) near our house called Goldlats had a (00:27:28) sale on 10speed bikes, the kind with the (00:27:32) with the uh handlebars that go under it. (00:27:34) That was brand new back then. They were (00:27:37) yellow. And they sold a ton of them. And (00:27:41) you got one as a gift. Your first 10 (00:27:44) speed bike. And it had to I got must (00:27:46) have gotten it for my birthday. So it's (00:27:47) probably around this time of the year. (00:27:50) but it didn't come with the clamps to (00:27:52) hold the cables along the yolk. So, my (00:27:55) mom used these twist ties that she got (00:27:59) from the baggies that you would put (00:28:02) stuff in before you had the zip lock. (00:28:04) You had these bags and then you put (00:28:06) these green and white twist twisty ties (00:28:09) on it. So, she put them on my bike and (00:28:11) and there is a point to this. Yeah, I'm (00:28:13) wondering what it is. Well, so, so, so (00:28:17) I'm riding my bike by myself down 75th (00:28:21) Street, which head, if you head east, (00:28:23) you run right into Lake Michigan. And (00:28:25) I'm almost there and a policeman comes (00:28:28) up to (00:28:29) me while I'm riding and I'm on the (00:28:32) sidewalk and he's in the street, turns (00:28:33) his lights on, tells me to pull over and (00:28:36) I stop and I was like, "Officer, how can (00:28:38) I help?" Because I'm always happy to see (00:28:40) a policeman. My uncle's a a policeman (00:28:42) and um you know officer friendly in (00:28:45) school. And he said, "Uh, where'd you (00:28:47) get that bike?" And I said, "Ah, I got (00:28:50) it for my birthday. I just got it. I (00:28:52) mean, take a look at I was proud of it. (00:28:54) I was like, this is my new 10-speed (00:28:57) bike." He said, "You stole that bike." (00:28:59) Now, this was a black police (00:29:03) officer. And I was like, "No, no." And (00:29:06) and I it was it was so out of the realm (00:29:08) of my mind to be accused of stealing a (00:29:12) bike. I wasn't even worried at first. I (00:29:14) just said, "No, no, listen. You got it (00:29:16) all wrong. This is a brand new bike that (00:29:19) I got." And he was like, "I know you (00:29:21) stole that bike." And he was basing it (00:29:24) on the fact that someone who had bought (00:29:27) a similar bike had it stolen and their (00:29:31) mom used twist ties to put them on the (00:29:34) cables. (00:29:35) So he wouldn't believe me. And so now (00:29:38) I'm getting worried. And he picks up my (00:29:40) bike and puts it in the trunk of the (00:29:41) car, puts me in the back of the car and (00:29:44) says, "Where do you live?" And I said, I (00:29:46) told him where I lived. And he drove I (00:29:49) said, "You'll you'll realize this is my (00:29:51) bike. We can go right to my mom's right (00:29:53) to my house." So we pull up to my house (00:29:57) and by this time I'm in tears. I'm just (00:30:00) beside myself. I ring the doorbell and (00:30:03) my mom was worried cuz she knew I was (00:30:05) gone for a long bike ride. She comes out (00:30:09) and I said, "The policeman is accused me (00:30:12) of stealing this bike and I'm in in (00:30:15) tears." She comes out and she said, (00:30:18) "Wait inside." And I'm on our front (00:30:21) porch looking out or actually I'm (00:30:23) upstairs looking down cuz we lived (00:30:25) upstairs. I'm looking down and I see her (00:30:30) and I can tell she is pissed and she is (00:30:34) talking to him like she would talk to us (00:30:36) if we were in trouble. And all I can see (00:30:40) is the the policeman trying to defend (00:30:43) himself. So after about 20 minutes, she (00:30:48) yells up to the window, "Craig, come (00:30:49) down here." And she said, "This (00:30:52) policeman uh has something to say to (00:30:54) you." And this dude took off his hat and (00:30:58) apologized for accusing me of stealing (00:31:01) his bike. And as it turned out, they (00:31:04) ended up finding the guy, but it was, (00:31:08) you know, that's that's kind of the (00:31:10) collateral damage of being a young black (00:31:13) kid. I just think about all, you know, (00:31:16) what would have happened if my mom (00:31:19) wasn't a stay-at-home mom? What if she (00:31:20) had been in work when that happened? (00:31:22) What if, you know, he didn't have a mom (00:31:26) that, you know, would stand up for him? (00:31:28) What what if what are all the what ifs (00:31:31) that that could have happened? Um, and (00:31:34) that, you know, is you imagine you're (00:31:37) just having a regular day and your son (00:31:39) is pulled up to your house in the back (00:31:42) of a police car at 10 years old. At 10, (00:31:45) 12 years old, it was it was frightening. (00:31:47) It was frightening, you know. And I (00:31:48) think what she was incredulous was about (00:31:51) was that he wasn't even inclined to (00:31:53) believe this little boy who was (00:31:54) obviously articulate, didn't look, you (00:31:57) know, you don't even want to say didn't (00:31:58) look like some little hood rat because (00:32:00) what does that matter, right? But that (00:32:03) was, you know, that was unusual for us (00:32:06) because we were good kids. I mean, and (00:32:08) we lived in a neighborhood where there (00:32:10) kids were getting into trouble all the (00:32:11) time and he knew all the kids cuz he was (00:32:13) a basketball player. He knew the the (00:32:16) gang kids and the drug dealers and the (00:32:18) but everybody also knew him, you know, (00:32:21) and you know, when you grow up in a (00:32:23) neighborhood, people know the kids that (00:32:25) are heading in the wrong direction and (00:32:27) the kids who have promise. Everybody (00:32:30) knew that Craig was a good student. He (00:32:32) was a good guy. And the notion and I (00:32:34) felt the anger, too. It's like, how dare (00:32:37) you do that to my brother? But he, you (00:32:41) know, he had a support system. he could (00:32:44) have wound up in jail for stealing, not (00:32:46) stealing a bike. Um, so yeah, that kind (00:32:49) of stuff happened all the time. Um, you (00:32:53) know, walking into a department store as (00:32:55) a young kid and having the the, you (00:32:58) know, salespeople wonder why you're (00:33:00) there and you're coming, you're an honor (00:33:03) student coming from high school, you (00:33:05) know, having lunch with your friends. I (00:33:07) mean, they don't they didn't see that (00:33:09) part. There were times when that that (00:33:10) part of us couldn't be we couldn't walk (00:33:12) around saying validictorian straight A (00:33:15) student uh you know speaks excellent has (00:33:19) excellent diction if you give them a (00:33:21) chance. You know we knew very early on (00:33:24) that that no one was going to see beyond (00:33:27) the color of our skin at an early age. (00:33:30) Uh and and that could get you in (00:33:32) trouble. Yeah. I mean, when you talk (00:33:35) about that fear, I'm sure that fear has (00:33:37) been tested across your life in so many (00:33:41) different places. And I wonder what (00:33:44) would you say has been the most hardest (00:33:46) recent test of that fear? Because it's (00:33:49) not one of those fears that you kind of (00:33:50) get over and it just goes away. It kind (00:33:53) of shows its head in many different (00:33:55) ways, I imagine. Well, in this current (00:33:57) climate for me, it's, you know, what's (00:34:00) happening to immigrants, you know? So, (00:34:02) it's it's not the fear for myself (00:34:05) anymore. I drive around in a fourc car (00:34:07) motorcade with a police escort. I'm (00:34:10) Michelle Obama. I do still worry about (00:34:13) my daughters in the world, even though (00:34:15) they are somewhat recognizable. So, my (00:34:17) fears are for what I know is happening (00:34:20) out there in streets all over the the (00:34:22) city. And now that we have leadership (00:34:24) that is sort of indiscriminately (00:34:27) determining who belongs and who doesn't (00:34:29) and we know that those decisions aren't (00:34:32) being made with courts and with due (00:34:34) process and you know that that it's (00:34:37) being made like this cop that pulled my (00:34:40) brother over when he was 12. You don't (00:34:43) look like (00:34:44) somebody that belongs. you know, I can (00:34:48) determine just by looking at you that (00:34:50) you're, you know, you're a good person (00:34:52) or you're not a good person. And knowing (00:34:55) that there's so much bias and so much (00:34:57) racism and so much ignorance that fuels (00:35:00) those kind of choices, I worry for (00:35:03) people of color all over this country. (00:35:07) And I don't know that we will have the (00:35:09) advocates to protect everybody. And that (00:35:12) makes me that frightens me. It it keeps (00:35:16) me up at night. Uh and I know that there (00:35:18) are and I and I see that when I'm (00:35:20) driving around LA. I'm I'm just looking (00:35:22) in the faces of folks who could be (00:35:24) victim. And I'm wondering how are you (00:35:26) feeling? How do you feel standing on the (00:35:28) bus stop? How do you how do you feel (00:35:30) comfortable going to work, going to (00:35:32) school when you know that there could be (00:35:35) people out here judging you and who (00:35:38) could upend your life in a second? (00:35:41) um that you know that that that's who I (00:35:45) worry for right now. What do you both do (00:35:48) with that fear because I think that's (00:35:50) very real and a lot of people listening (00:35:51) probably feel very similarly to both of (00:35:54) you as well. What do you do with it? (00:35:56) Because it almost feels (00:35:58) overwhelming and especially for someone (00:36:00) going through it as you were talking (00:36:01) about with your daughters too. It's it's (00:36:04) not something that you rationalize and (00:36:07) you know it's it's not the same as so (00:36:08) many other fears. So, what do you do (00:36:10) with it? See, I still have a couple of (00:36:12) young kids at home. So, I've got a (00:36:15) 15year-old and a 13year-old. So, I'm (00:36:18) still in the education process for those (00:36:22) guys because we, you know, we live in a (00:36:24) suburb and and uh we have a relatively (00:36:28) safe environment. So, our kids aren't (00:36:31) growing up with that kind of fear that (00:36:34) we had, but I have to make them aware of (00:36:37) it because at some point they're going (00:36:39) to be away from us and they're going to (00:36:40) be in a place where they're going to (00:36:43) encounter that. I'm trying to be as (00:36:46) empathetic as I can because that's how (00:36:49) we were taught to deal with this kind of (00:36:52) behavior. Our mom always said, "Just put (00:36:54) yourself in the other guy's shoes. He's (00:36:57) probably had a bad upbringing, an (00:36:59) ignorant upbringing. Uh his folks didn't (00:37:02) know anything. And that's how I always (00:37:05) viewed people who treated me with (00:37:08) disdain because of my race or because of (00:37:10) where I'm from or (00:37:12) or anything. And I'm trying to help my (00:37:16) my even my older kids who are 33 and 29. (00:37:19) They're they're they're pretty much (00:37:21) formed and are are handling things on (00:37:22) their own. But it's a good reminder to (00:37:25) talk about this and and put put some (00:37:28) coping strategies together for (00:37:30) especially our our teenagers because (00:37:33) they're going to um they're going to (00:37:36) encounter this at some point. I have to (00:37:39) re practice reverse, you know, messaging (00:37:43) in my own head about this stuff because (00:37:46) you can get locked in the the the (00:37:49) disappointments of what is happening (00:37:52) right now and you can sit in it and let (00:37:55) that eat you up and it can taint your (00:37:59) view of so much. Having been the first (00:38:02) lady of the entire country and (00:38:05) representing the country in the world, I (00:38:08) couldn't afford to have that kind of (00:38:10) disdain. You know, I had to um remind (00:38:14) myself and put myself in situations that (00:38:17) reminded me the ideals and beliefs that (00:38:20) I disagree with are not pervasive. That, (00:38:23) you know, there are a lot of good people (00:38:25) out there. again employing empathy but (00:38:29) also reminding myself of the truth of (00:38:31) what I've seen and I've experienced (00:38:34) where that we're in a confusing time but (00:38:37) it doesn't help me and it doesn't help (00:38:40) the country for me to grow cynical in (00:38:43) that space. So it I kind of view it as (00:38:45) it's it's a duty as a citizen to not do (00:38:48) the same thing that they're doing and (00:38:50) start making assumptions about people (00:38:53) based on my anger and fear. you know (00:38:55) that I have to assume that most people (00:38:58) are trying to do the right thing. That (00:39:00) deep down inside, the vast majority of (00:39:03) us do not want to see our neighbors and (00:39:06) our friends and relatives live in fear. (00:39:08) They just don't understand what it feels (00:39:10) like to be the target. But if they knew, (00:39:13) they would understand. Which is why (00:39:16) communication and conversation is so (00:39:18) important because maybe if I can tell a (00:39:20) story, you know, if I can if I can help (00:39:24) them be in the shoes of someone and that (00:39:27) it can have that same empathizing effect (00:39:30) that I'd rather use that rather than (00:39:33) than become to become discouraged and (00:39:36) then suspicious and just be the, you (00:39:39) know, just do what they're doing. I (00:39:41) don't want to become that. Uh, so it's a (00:39:44) constant reminder. Do not slip in to (00:39:47) that behavior yourself. I love that. I I (00:39:51) think that's such (00:39:53) uh optimistic, hopeful, powerful (00:39:56) mindset. And you're so right because if (00:39:59) we all become cynical and skeptical and (00:40:02) negative, it only makes it worse for us (00:40:05) and worse for everyone around us. Yeah. (00:40:07) And let let me tell you, I can I can and (00:40:10) I can be cynical and I can be all of (00:40:14) that and I don't want to set myself (00:40:15) because in these times it's hard. No one (00:40:17) is perfect, but I try to keep that to my (00:40:21) kitchen table, you know? I mean, I I (00:40:24) feel like when you when you have a (00:40:26) platform and you have a voice, there is (00:40:28) a responsibility to use that wisely. So (00:40:32) yes, I I yes, even I in going high, (00:40:36) there are times I want to go low and I (00:40:38) need to let that out, but I'm never (00:40:41) gonna let that out in public because (00:40:43) that's not even fully truly how I feel, (00:40:46) you know? Um, so just for our listeners (00:40:50) and viewers, it's like, yes, of course, (00:40:52) we all feel it. It's just a question of (00:40:54) how do we act on it? And you hear this, (00:40:56) this is why we're doing IMO, right? It's (00:41:00) just to be able to take the lessons (00:41:02) we've learned and the experiences that (00:41:06) we've gone through and hers being at the (00:41:09) level of the White House and mine being (00:41:11) what they are sort of I'm I'm the still (00:41:13) the regular guy in the family, (00:41:16) but we're we're hoping that we can share (00:41:19) some of these with folks and learn some (00:41:21) things from the people that we have on (00:41:23) like you just listening to her do that. (00:41:26) This is I this is the most fun I am (00:41:29) having other than hanging with my kids (00:41:32) and my family. I just get goosebumps (00:41:34) when when you hear some some good um (00:41:38) wisdom. Oh yeah. I mean that that that (00:41:40) totally like you know it just it was (00:41:43) just such a refreshing take on what I (00:41:46) was saying was is a valid concern is a (00:41:51) natural feeling that people are having. (00:41:54) M but to flip the script in our own (00:41:56) minds as to how we deal with it and that (00:41:58) constant battle that we have to have (00:42:00) with the thoughts in our head. And I (00:42:02) love what you're doing with IMO. I mean, (00:42:03) I was so grateful to be a guest on the (00:42:06) show and to visit you both uh in (00:42:08) Martha's Vineyard, which was last year, (00:42:10) I think it was. And first of all, I'm (00:42:13) just so grateful when I see doing it (00:42:17) with family is just special because (00:42:18) already you're seeing sides of each (00:42:20) other that you'd never see elsewhere. So (00:42:23) you can tell how authentic and real it (00:42:24) is and and true it is which is so (00:42:26) beautiful. And on top of that, what I (00:42:29) love about it the most is that I feel (00:42:32) the fact that you're doing a podcast, (00:42:35) which is the most accessible platform (00:42:37) where you're giving I mean, you know, (00:42:38) when we were on like questions coming in (00:42:40) from the audience that we were tackling (00:42:42) together, trying to hear from both of (00:42:44) your experiences and by the way, Craig, (00:42:46) you saying that you you know, the normal (00:42:49) regular person in the family, I mean, (00:42:51) like, you know, compared to her, I hope (00:42:54) everyone has the regular, you know, it's (00:42:57) amazing. to hear it from both of your (00:42:58) sides and and the fact that you're (00:43:00) opening up even just the way you did now (00:43:02) about these real life experiences that (00:43:03) you've both had. I I think it's so (00:43:06) needed because I think the challenge is (00:43:08) that when people do have success as both (00:43:10) of you have had and and the incredible (00:43:12) heights of success that you've had, you (00:43:14) forget that someone was once scared that (00:43:17) they were told they were stealing a (00:43:20) bike. Yeah. Or you know that they were (00:43:22) scared about going down a particular (00:43:24) street in their neighborhood. And and (00:43:26) that's where so many people start out. (00:43:29) And it's not saying that everyone has to (00:43:30) go and achieve things externally in the (00:43:33) world to get out of that, but these are (00:43:35) real emotions. And and I think what you (00:43:37) were saying to me that resonated just (00:43:39) now, Michelle, was this idea that you've (00:43:43) had to push yourself out of that comfort (00:43:45) zone and your parents wanted you to not (00:43:47) have that. I mean, what amazing (00:43:49) parenting. M yeah I mean what phenomenal (00:43:51) parenting when you have every reason to (00:43:53) scare your kids into a corner but you (00:43:57) actually use it to expand their vision (00:43:59) up to the whole world. You know what I (00:44:00) mean? That's we were blessed, Jay. And (00:44:03) the older we get, the further down (00:44:05) life's path we go as we parent and (00:44:08) parent young kids and adult kids, it (00:44:10) we've come to appreciate how rare our (00:44:14) parents' perspectives were for anyone, (00:44:17) let alone for people in their (00:44:18) circumstances, which is another thing (00:44:21) reason why it's like, well, let's create (00:44:23) a bigger kitchen table. I and with the (00:44:26) loss of our mom this year, that was also (00:44:28) a big impetus to to do this podcast (00:44:32) because the wisdom that she gave us, it (00:44:35) lives in us. And as people who were (00:44:38) raised to be givers and to be mentors (00:44:41) and to gain joy from that mentorship (00:44:43) truly, that's sort of a shared attribute (00:44:46) in both of us. being able to take that (00:44:49) wisdom and I don't want to say spread it (00:44:52) to the world, but to just let other (00:44:54) people benefit from the little nuggets (00:44:57) of of of wisdom that our parents laid (00:45:00) out in that kitchen table. It's like, (00:45:02) why not share it? You know, the power of (00:45:05) good parenting is too often (00:45:09) underestimated. And I think our parents (00:45:12) came into parenting with a philosophy (00:45:15) like like a basic philosophy. I mean, (00:45:17) when you think of how most people think (00:45:18) of parenting, they just think, I want to (00:45:20) have a baby. And that's where it begins (00:45:22) and ends. I want to have a baby. But the (00:45:26) then the question is, well, why? Why do (00:45:29) you want to have a baby? Do you want to (00:45:32) have a baby because you're (00:45:33) lonely? That that that's not going to (00:45:36) work out well. Uh do you want to have a (00:45:38) baby to create a mini me to continue on (00:45:41) some aspect of yourself that that you (00:45:43) didn't achieve? Ooh, that's going to be (00:45:47) a messy kind of situation. Are are you (00:45:50) lonely and you want a companion? Do you (00:45:52) want a friend? I mean, if we actually (00:45:56) sit down and piece that stuff apart (00:45:59) before we have kids because parenting is (00:46:02) a hard thing. I think our parents or at (00:46:04) least our mother for sure she wanted (00:46:08) parents because she felt the importance (00:46:11) of raising independent, kind, (00:46:14) compassionate people, adults. Like she (00:46:17) always said, "I'm not raising babies, (00:46:19) I'm raising adults." And that that (00:46:22) completely shifts your approach as to (00:46:25) how you parent if you're not like just (00:46:27) trying to raise a friend. Because let me (00:46:29) tell you, if you want a friend, you (00:46:31) never want your friend to be mad at you, (00:46:33) right? You want your friend to like you. (00:46:34) Yeah. And if you're a parent and you're (00:46:36) worried about whether your kid likes (00:46:38) you, I guarantee you, you are screwing (00:46:41) them up, right? Because so much of (00:46:43) parenting means that you have to suffer (00:46:45) through them gritting under their teeth (00:46:48) of, "Oh, I hate you. Oh, mom, you make (00:46:51) me so mad. Why don't you ever, you know, (00:46:53) and it's like you can have those (00:46:54) feelings, you know, but as my girls say (00:46:57) that their favorite phrase of mine is, (00:47:00) I'm not one of your little (00:47:03) friends. It's like I you don't have to (00:47:05) like me. I've got my own friends. So, (00:47:08) you can don't slam your door. You can go (00:47:11) in your room. You can say whatever you (00:47:13) want, but you better not let me hear it. (00:47:15) And in and when you come out, you still (00:47:18) have to do it because I am not raising (00:47:21) you to be my friend. I'm raising you to (00:47:22) be a human, a responsible adult in the (00:47:25) world. And that's how our mother raised (00:47:29) us. And I always say, if everybody took (00:47:32) that to heart before they had kids and (00:47:35) they treated parenting in that way, boy, (00:47:38) that that would solve a lot of the mess (00:47:41) we're trying to deal with right now. (00:47:43) Yes, if parents just approached the job (00:47:47) like this is the biggest most important (00:47:50) thing that I'm doing and it isn't about (00:47:52) me. It is about who this little human is (00:47:55) going to be and how they're going to (00:47:56) enter the world and are they going to be (00:47:59) empathetic? Are they going to be (00:48:00) responsible? Are they going to be an (00:48:02) out here? And you start doing (00:48:05) that when they're two and three and (00:48:07) four. All of that work is is it starts (00:48:10) that early. That's, you know, if I think (00:48:13) of of a mission for myself right now (00:48:15) today, it's really like having us (00:48:19) all rethink the way we are are building (00:48:24) the next generation and what our duties (00:48:26) and our responsibilities are, what we're (00:48:28) getting right and what we haven't been (00:48:30) getting right, and how do we (00:48:32) self-correct. I'm really like on a on (00:48:36) one for just that thing cuz we're we're (00:48:39) not going to be able to count on the (00:48:41) government, you know? I mean, we're not (00:48:43) right now we're not investing in (00:48:44) education, so we can't, you know, we're (00:48:47) not paying teachers enough. We're (00:48:49) leaving this all on us. We're saying we (00:48:51) don't want to pay taxes for any of this (00:48:53) stuff, right? So, we sure as hell better (00:48:57) be good at taking care of our kids cuz (00:49:01) now we're saying, "Well, then it's all (00:49:03) on us and we can't afford to get it (00:49:05) wrong." Mic drop. That was like that (00:49:08) really hits hard. I mean, that resonates (00:49:11) so strongly and I feel as I was (00:49:14) listening to you, it's in one sense, and (00:49:16) I want to ask you this both as parents. (00:49:18) I'm not a parent yet. And partly it's (00:49:19) because me and my wife have these (00:49:21) discussions. We talk a lot about what (00:49:23) our parenting philosophy is and we've (00:49:25) talked about it over the years that (00:49:27) we've been together. We've been together (00:49:28) now for 12 years and married for nine (00:49:31) and it's been a topic of conversation (00:49:33) and there's been things we haven't (00:49:34) agreed on. There's things we agree on (00:49:36) and we want to make sure that we have an (00:49:38) aligned viewpoint even if we have slight (00:49:41) differences, right? We want to have an (00:49:44) aligned viewpoint of because we want the (00:49:45) kids to get a clear message. We don't (00:49:47) want them to get mom and dad have (00:49:49) different viewpoints and they're, you (00:49:50) know, they're arguing about it, trying (00:49:52) to figure it out. And and it's hard. And (00:49:53) I wanted to ask you both as parents, I (00:49:55) think, you know, you've both lived (00:49:57) incredibly successful lives. You went to (00:49:59) the best schools in the country. You (00:50:01) know, you went on to pivot and have an (00:50:03) amazing career and your passion of (00:50:04) basketball, like to even be able to do (00:50:06) that as a coach is incredible, Craig. (00:50:09) Right. Like to be able to pivot, which (00:50:11) I'm sure took sacrifice and stress, and (00:50:13) I want to link it to parenting. And of (00:50:15) course, mashallah, going to the White (00:50:16) House, raising kids while you're at the (00:50:18) White House, leaving then continuing. (00:50:21) How did you put parenting as a (00:50:24) priority despite prioritizing your (00:50:26) passion, prioritizing the country and (00:50:29) service, prioritizing your own (00:50:31) marriages? Like I feel like there's so (00:50:33) much pressure on parents. We just said (00:50:35) we can't rely on school, we can't rely (00:50:36) on the government, can't rely so that (00:50:38) means it's all on this person. How does (00:50:40) a parent take that pressure in a way (00:50:43) that uplifts them and allows them to (00:50:46) pursue their greatness too rather than (00:50:48) feel completely paralyzed by it? The (00:50:51) first thing that comes to my mind is (00:50:55) that as Meech said, we were so blessed (00:50:58) to have such good parents. I feel (00:51:03) obligated to be a great parent as a (00:51:07) tribute to my own parents. Well, you (00:51:09) also know what a great parent looks (00:51:10) like. I do know what a great parent (00:51:12) looks like, but I also am so thankful (00:51:16) for the sacrifices that they made so (00:51:20) that we could thrive and it makes (00:51:25) sense (00:51:26) and irrespective of whatever my passion (00:51:31) is which is co basketball or coaching or (00:51:36) mentoring. The (00:51:38) first responsibility I have are to the (00:51:42) four kids that I brought into this (00:51:44) world. And that's an easy one, Jay, for (00:51:47) me to to do. So, if I had to sacrifice (00:51:50) my passion for my kids, I would have. (00:51:54) Fortunately, coaching is a terrific (00:51:57) environment to raise kids because you're (00:52:00) around other young people and it really (00:52:04) is like having 15 kids instead of just (00:52:07) four. I would say there there is a (00:52:10) discipline that comes with it and you (00:52:14) talked about this being aligned. We call (00:52:17) it united front in our house. No matter (00:52:20) what what we're thinking, we are gonna (00:52:24) come to an agreement when it comes to (00:52:26) all right, let's give some advice to (00:52:27) this kids. This is the advice. Sometimes (00:52:30) it's what Kelly wants and sometimes it's (00:52:33) what I want, my wife Kelly. So there's a (00:52:37) coordinated communication, there's (00:52:40) discipline, and then most of all, and I (00:52:43) think I hear the word me time in par (00:52:47) these young parents, you know, my (00:52:50) parents never talked about me time. (00:52:51) Their their me time was our time. And I (00:52:55) know from a from a mental health (00:52:57) standpoint, we all need to get away and (00:52:59) and be on our own. But I would do that (00:53:02) after I made sure my kids were solidly (00:53:05) on good footing before I was worried (00:53:08) about I need a vacation with my boys to (00:53:10) go to Vegas. And I just saw my dad and (00:53:15) and and you talked about it. He was a (00:53:17) shift worker for the city of Chicago, (00:53:20) but he made time no matter what shift he (00:53:24) was on to attend our events, to play (00:53:27) with us when we when he got home, no (00:53:29) matter how tired he was, he made us the (00:53:33) priority. So, it's not hard work for it (00:53:36) doesn't feel like it's hard work for for (00:53:39) me and for us. We just had really good (00:53:43) role models and we were well coached in (00:53:46) parenting. Well, when you think of talk (00:53:48) about the pressure, I do I do think that (00:53:51) these days parents feel a lot of (00:53:53) pressure, but we're like taking on the (00:53:56) wrong pressure. Like we feel responsible (00:54:00) for our kids' happiness and success, (00:54:03) right? So we put a lot of pressure on (00:54:07) making sure they achieve like making (00:54:11) sure they don't fail, making sure they (00:54:13) don't feel bad or they don't experience (00:54:16) disappointments. So a lot of that (00:54:18) emotional energy we're taking on is in (00:54:21) my view it's misdirected and it takes a (00:54:25) lot of energy if you think that you're (00:54:27) responsible for your kids to happiness. (00:54:31) Right. Wow. And it's it's a whole lot of (00:54:33) energy if you think your kid should (00:54:36) always be happy. I mean, that's a (00:54:39) current parenting generational angst. (00:54:42) Like, no generations before us, you (00:54:46) know, cared about whether their kids (00:54:49) were happy, let alone being responsible (00:54:52) for your happiness or that you should be (00:54:54) happy all the time. I It feels like (00:54:57) that's a new phenomenon, right? You (00:55:00) know, I mean, we just think of all the (00:55:02) work that we do to keep our kids busy (00:55:05) and, you know, engaged and we sign them (00:55:07) up for this and sign them up for that (00:55:09) and, you know, we're taking them here (00:55:10) and we're taking them there instead of (00:55:12) just going, "Bill, maybe you're going to (00:55:14) be bored today." You know, what am I (00:55:17) what are we doing on Saturday, Mom? When (00:55:19) I was growing up, the answer was (00:55:21) nothing. You know, and my mother went on (00:55:24) with her day. You know, we're we're kind (00:55:26) of taking on a lot of that. My mom (00:55:29) always said that I am going to help you (00:55:33) own your life as early as possible. So (00:55:38) great words, you know, so that it's not (00:55:41) my life, it's not my failure, it's not (00:55:44) my homework, it's not my going to (00:55:46) school, it's yours. And when you start (00:55:49) giving your kids their lives early, (00:55:51) which means you got to let go. There's a (00:55:54) worry in that. But if you start letting (00:55:56) go, it's like you got to wake yourself (00:55:58) up. You got to make your bed. You got to (00:56:00) wash your plate. You can get to school. (00:56:02) You can figure it out. You got to figure (00:56:04) it out. And I think these days, parents (00:56:07) don't want to they don't want that (00:56:09) process of watching their kids figure it (00:56:11) out. And I get it. It is hard to watch (00:56:14) the the the person that you love (00:56:16) literally walk into a wall that you (00:56:20) see, you know, because our instinct as (00:56:23) parents is go, "Sweetie, no. No, no. You (00:56:26) were walking right into a wall. Uh, let (00:56:29) me stop you and sit you here and be safe (00:56:31) with me. Now I feel better. Right. And (00:56:35) the truth is is that sometime, at least (00:56:37) I've learned with my kids, they have to (00:56:41) walk into that wall. They have to bump (00:56:43) their head hard. And it's it hurts me to (00:56:46) see it, but I found that they learn (00:56:49) faster that way than me keeping them (00:56:52) from bumping their heads. Um, and (00:56:54) there's a release with that. It's like (00:56:57) it's a different kind of difficult thing (00:56:59) that you're dealing with, right? You're (00:57:01) dealing with your own emotions and (00:57:04) watching somebody that you care about go (00:57:06) through tough stuff. But there's no (00:57:09) other way to get them to be independent (00:57:11) other than dealing with that pain, (00:57:14) right? And I always say, as I told (00:57:17) Barack, I was like, you know, we either (00:57:19) do this stuff (00:57:20) early and deal with it, have these hard (00:57:23) kind of conversations, deal with these (00:57:25) mistakes and failures when they're 10 (00:57:27) and five and 13, then rather than having (00:57:31) them live in our basement at 35 for for (00:57:35) the rest of their lives. It's like I (00:57:37) don't want a kid in my basement. So I've (00:57:40) been my our parents parented us not to (00:57:43) be in their basement. You pay your (00:57:46) bills. You handle your business. That's (00:57:48) our motto. Are you handling your (00:57:50) business? That's a certain kind of (00:57:52) parenting. But if you make that (00:57:53) investment early, you know, if you do (00:57:55) the hard things, if you make your kids (00:57:57) sleep in their bed, if you tell them no (00:57:59) when they're five, if you teach them (00:58:02) boundaries and don't let them talk back (00:58:04) and help them be socialized beings by (00:58:08) setting forth some real hard to manage (00:58:11) boundaries at three and four and five, (00:58:14) you're not even dealing with a lot of (00:58:15) these issues at 16 because they've (00:58:19) practiced something else in your (00:58:21) presence. (00:58:22) And so now 16, 20, our girls, our all of (00:58:26) our kids are joys to be with. They all (00:58:29) live on their own. Our kids have an (00:58:31) Obama tax that we will continue to pay (00:58:33) just to cost on their life that is not (00:58:36) their own. So there are certain places (00:58:37) that they cannot live where they can (00:58:39) afford to live. There's certain things (00:58:41) like that. But all of our kids, they (00:58:44) don't want our help because they're they (00:58:46) get gratification in saying they did (00:58:49) this. And that go comes down to choosing (00:58:52) the college that they're going to go to. (00:58:54) I may not agree with you. It happened. (00:58:56) It's like I don't think you're going to (00:58:58) like that school, but it's got to be (00:59:00) your choice. You know, I don't think you (00:59:03) you're going to like that that (00:59:05) girlfriend. It's got to be your choice. (00:59:07) I got to look the other way. I got to (00:59:09) and then I've got to be there with you (00:59:11) after you make that mistake going, "It's (00:59:14) okay. Let's talk about it. What did you (00:59:16) learn? let's, you know, but I my mother (00:59:20) was staying out of our lives very early (00:59:22) in our lives. Yeah. Um, and I think (00:59:25) that's something that makes parenting (00:59:27) easy in one way, but emotionally (00:59:29) difficult in another way. Yeah. Wow. And (00:59:32) I really really appreciate the (00:59:34) clarification of repprioritizing that (00:59:38) pressure because the pressure we're (00:59:40) placing, as you said, on the winning, (00:59:41) the succeeding, the it's almost (00:59:44) misplaced. There's a distinction that (00:59:47) I'm hearing from both of you in coddling (00:59:50) an individual and cultivating (00:59:53) independence. (00:59:54) And when we think of more love or more (00:59:58) support, we think fix, solve, control. (01:00:01) Yes. Done. Right. That's that's what we (01:00:04) think love is. We think love means you (01:00:06) have no problems. That's right. We took (01:00:08) care of everything and we're here for (01:00:11) everything that you need. That's right. (01:00:12) And actually what we've realized is love (01:00:14) is setting someone up to carry (01:00:18) themselves. Exactly. And fix themselves (01:00:21) and serve themselves and feeling the (01:00:23) confidence in in being able to do that. (01:00:25) They competence is love too. And you (01:00:30) know I always want my kids to know that (01:00:33) I I do trust that you have good sense. I (01:00:37) do. You can do this. Watch you do it. (01:00:40) and just see how kids light up when they (01:00:43) accomplish something on their own. And (01:00:45) when you're if you're the fixer, you're (01:00:47) robbing your kids of that sense of (01:00:51) self-satisfaction. I failed, it hurt, (01:00:53) but it was me, but when I succeed, it's (01:00:56) also me. And sometimes, you know, as (01:00:59) parents, we want that victory. Yeah, (01:01:02) that's what I was going to say. Meech (01:01:04) does a good job talking about how people (01:01:06) don't like friction and sometimes you (01:01:10) need friction as a as a parent (01:01:13) especially those who are doing the (01:01:16) coddling they're doing that for (01:01:18) themselves. You are not helping your kid (01:01:20) by doing it because parenting this way (01:01:25) is hard and you it causes friction in (01:01:28) your inside. When we say, "Okay, you can (01:01:30) take your scooter to the store and go (01:01:33) pick up some stuff and bring it back." (01:01:35) That's hard. It would have been easy for (01:01:37) me to take take you to the store and (01:01:40) make sure you got back in the car. And (01:01:43) nothing made me feel better about doing (01:01:47) this kind of stuff was when I found out (01:01:49) that our parents were deathly afraid of (01:01:52) us traveling on our own. Meech had an (01:01:55) opportunity to go to France. I played (01:01:58) bitty basketball and there was a trip to (01:02:00) Kansas City and to New Orleans and we (01:02:02) came to find out later that our parents (01:02:05) were fearful of us going on these but (01:02:08) they for the reasons we talked about it (01:02:10) the same reasons we talked but they did (01:02:12) it anyway because they knew it was (01:02:14) important for our development and I I (01:02:17) just thinking about the aida in their (01:02:20) stomachs when they're when they're (01:02:22) letting go of a you know your kids are (01:02:25) leaving town without doing things they (01:02:26) never did. They never did. They never (01:02:28) got to travel when they were young. They (01:02:30) didn't have the resources. They didn't (01:02:31) go to college. They didn't go off their (01:02:34) block out of their neighborhoods, you (01:02:36) know. So, imagine the fear of sending (01:02:39) your kids to do something to going to (01:02:41) Princeton. M you know the day they let (01:02:44) him leave to go to some school in some (01:02:46) place where they knew nothing about the (01:02:48) rituals the the prestige you know the (01:02:52) kind of confidence in your parenting (01:02:55) philosophy that it would take to execute (01:02:58) that when we were growing up in a (01:03:00) community where people's parents (01:03:02) wouldn't even fill out their FAFSA forms (01:03:04) because they were afraid of their kids (01:03:06) going to college so they held on to (01:03:08) their kids they said go to go to the (01:03:11) state school down the street because it (01:03:13) will make me deep down it will make me (01:03:14) feel better cuz I don't want to let you (01:03:17) go. Don't go out of state. Don't leave (01:03:20) the home. Don't go out of the (01:03:22) neighborhood. A lot of parents parent (01:03:25) out of fear and it's fear for (01:03:27) themselves. It's real fear for sure. You (01:03:29) know, do not get me wrong. is the (01:03:32) hardest thing to do, which is what makes (01:03:34) parenting so hard. Which is why people (01:03:37) really have to think before they bring (01:03:39) kids into the world. Cuz it's hard. It's (01:03:43) hard in some really obvious reasons. And (01:03:46) it's hard in some ways that you will (01:03:48) never understand until that that little (01:03:51) person is is breathing in this world how (01:03:54) they will make you feel. You will love (01:03:56) nothing more. So I understand it. But (01:04:00) that's why we get a lot of it wrong (01:04:01) because we're operating out of fear (01:04:03) sometimes. We've talked a lot about the (01:04:05) differences in how you were parented, (01:04:08) how things have changed. And I feel like (01:04:10) one of the biggest talking points of (01:04:11) today for parents and children is (01:04:13) therapy. Like therapy seems to be a (01:04:16) conversation that's opened up that a (01:04:18) previous generation either didn't have (01:04:19) access to, didn't believe in, couldn't (01:04:22) afford, didn't value, which some of (01:04:24) those challenges still exist today with (01:04:26) affordability and accessibility. But (01:04:28) what have been your personal journeys (01:04:30) with therapy as as a form of working on (01:04:34) your own self and then of course your (01:04:36) children as well? I would say I was your (01:04:39) typical (01:04:40) guy when it came to therapy and (01:04:44) typical guy of color because I wasn't (01:04:47) exposed to therapy until I got to (01:04:51) college and I found out that kids my age (01:04:55) were going to therapy and I was like (01:04:58) well what what is going on in that that (01:05:01) head because I didn't understand it. Now (01:05:05) you jump ahead to in my first marriage. (01:05:08) That was when it when it hit when it (01:05:09) started to have trouble. We would go to (01:05:12) coup's therapy and then I would go to (01:05:14) therapy on my own. And I realized that (01:05:17) my last statement about not knowing what (01:05:19) therapy was and not doing it. I just did (01:05:23) it in a different way. My therapy was (01:05:26) the barberh shop. It wasn't church for (01:05:29) me cuz I wasn't a churchgoer. But for (01:05:31) some people it's church. But for me, it (01:05:34) is fellowship type with my good friends (01:05:38) that I can tell stuff to. Mhm. But I (01:05:41) wasn't a real therapy guy until I had (01:05:44) trouble in my first (01:05:46) marriage. But I'm happy to say that my (01:05:48) two older children are regular therapy (01:05:52) goers. And it just warms my heart (01:05:54) because it wasn't like I said, you know, (01:05:56) you guys should go to therapy. They just (01:05:58) kind of did it on themselves. So, I I am (01:06:00) a big believer in it. And I'm sure (01:06:03) people have used this analogy before, (01:06:06) but we tune up just about everything in (01:06:09) our lives. You know, we tune up our (01:06:11) cars, we tune up our electronics, but we (01:06:14) don't tune up our minds and our our (01:06:16) emotions. And and we should. And I have (01:06:20) to say that you got into therapy, I (01:06:23) think, before I did. And that kind of (01:06:27) opened my eyes to it, too. even before I (01:06:29) was having trouble in my marriage. So (01:06:32) you you can share share your your (01:06:34) experience. No, I I believe in all the (01:06:36) therapies that Craig just outlined. I (01:06:39) believe in the the friendship therapy. I (01:06:42) believe in the power of sharing your (01:06:46) challenges with other people that you (01:06:48) trust and that can come in many forms (01:06:51) and it has for me. I am a talker and I (01:06:54) think you know our family was you know (01:06:58) our first therapy was the kitchen table. (01:07:01) Right. Right. Um and our first (01:07:04) therapists were our parents and our (01:07:06) family members because you'd have an (01:07:08) experience that you you needed to (01:07:10) something you needed to let off your (01:07:11) chest, something you had to let go of. (01:07:14) And we have parents that created a safe (01:07:17) space to speak openly and honestly. They (01:07:20) didn't treat us like children at that (01:07:22) table. They treated us like thinking (01:07:24) beings. So it was very early on that I (01:07:28) we learned the power of our own thoughts (01:07:31) and to trust our own emotions. And when (01:07:33) something felt off, you know, we were (01:07:35) encouraged. It's like, no, you're not (01:07:37) crazy. You're seeing what you're seeing. (01:07:39) And yeah, your anger, that anger is (01:07:41) real, but you can't show it this way. (01:07:43) You know, we were validated at our (01:07:46) table. And that's what therapy is. It's (01:07:48) it's a validation. And so very early on, (01:07:52) I sought out the company of girlfriends, (01:07:55) friends I could trust and that we could (01:07:56) talk to and we could have that (01:07:59) validation and and present honestly. And (01:08:02) as I said in in in my book, The Light, (01:08:05) you know, I cultivated those tables (01:08:07) throughout my life. You know, I had that (01:08:09) those t table. I needed that table in (01:08:11) college when I was we were one of a few (01:08:14) black kids on on an all-white Ivy League (01:08:17) school campus. We needed a safe place to (01:08:21) go, which might have been the the third (01:08:23) world center, right, where minority (01:08:25) students gathered. I found a mentor uh (01:08:28) in an older administrator who was my (01:08:31) confidant during those days. Um small (01:08:35) mini sessions, right? Then when I got (01:08:37) married and started having kids, I built (01:08:39) this amazing community. We built (01:08:42) together this amazing community of moms (01:08:45) parenting young young kids and babies. (01:08:48) And we started getting together every (01:08:50) Saturday, taking our kids to all the (01:08:52) activities, but sitting around maybe (01:08:54) opening a bottle of champagne and (01:08:57) shedding our feelings and our fears and (01:08:59) exchanging ideas. But I've also, you (01:09:03) know, been to a formal therapist because (01:09:05) I, as Craig said, I think we need to be (01:09:08) coached throughout our lives. And I (01:09:10) think therapy is a form of coaching (01:09:12) where somebody objective can come in and (01:09:14) say, "Have you thought about this this (01:09:17) way?" You're entering a new phase of (01:09:19) life. Um, how are you thinking about it? (01:09:22) Having somebody that has a skill set to (01:09:24) help you shape a paradigm. I fully (01:09:26) believe in that. I believe in couples (01:09:28) therapy. Um, I believe I believe in it (01:09:31) all. Um, whatever works for you. And at (01:09:34) this, you know, phase of my life, I'm (01:09:36) I'm in therapy right now because I'm (01:09:39) transitioning. You know, I'm 60 years (01:09:41) old. I've finished a really hard thing (01:09:44) in my life with my family intact. I'm an (01:09:47) empty neester. My girls are in, you (01:09:50) know, they they've been launched. And (01:09:52) now, for the first time, as I've said (01:09:54) before, every choice that I'm making is (01:09:57) completely mine. I now don't have the (01:10:00) excuse of well my kids need this or my (01:10:02) husband needs that or the country needs (01:10:04) that. So how do I think about this next (01:10:08) phase and let me get some help? Let me (01:10:11) unwind some old habits. Let me sort (01:10:13) through some old guilt that I've been (01:10:16) carrying around. Let me talk about how (01:10:19) my relationship my with my mother has (01:10:21) affected how I think about things. So, (01:10:24) I'm getting that tuneup for this next (01:10:27) phase because I believe this is a whole (01:10:29) another phase in life for me. And I now (01:10:32) have the wisdom to know, let me let me (01:10:34) go get some coaching while I'm doing it (01:10:37) so that I've got other voices other than (01:10:39) pe the people who know me best. I've got (01:10:42) a new person that's getting to know me (01:10:44) and seeing me completely new and hearing (01:10:47) all these emotions. I am an an advocate (01:10:50) of it. Everybody needs to find their (01:10:52) form of it. the best way they can. For (01:10:55) some people, it's podcasts like (01:10:58) ours, you know, that are providing (01:11:01) people with that therapy. And it's one (01:11:03) of the reasons why I'm excited about (01:11:05) doing these things, coming on yours and (01:11:08) developing IMO, because I hope that (01:11:10) maybe for the people who are a little (01:11:12) bit skeptical of it, that these forums (01:11:15) become the place where they start at (01:11:17) least getting some ideas, you know, and (01:11:20) thinking, "Wow, I never thought of it (01:11:22) that way. I never saw it that way. And (01:11:24) maybe they'll never go to therapy, but (01:11:26) they come here for 90 minutes and they, (01:11:28) you know, they find some answers for (01:11:31) themselves. I firmly believe in it. (01:11:33) Yeah. I love what you were saying about (01:11:35) needing them at transitions. When we're (01:11:39) shapeshifting and molding and it's (01:11:42) almost like ever since someone (01:11:44) graduates, if they went to college, it's (01:11:45) like from that point on, you just left (01:11:48) to figure it out. Yeah. And it's almost (01:11:49) like there were these markers like when (01:11:51) you went from elementary school to high (01:11:53) school to college, there were markers (01:11:55) and there were transitions and there (01:11:57) were summers in between where you knew (01:11:59) what was coming next and then you become (01:12:02) an adult and then now there's not really (01:12:05) the well there are the markers of get (01:12:07) married, you have kids, you get to a (01:12:10) career success or whatever it is, the (01:12:11) kids leave as you said, but there's no (01:12:13) real transitionary summers anymore. (01:12:15) there's not not everyone's talking to (01:12:17) you about hey what's going on and and (01:12:19) also there's less there's less formal (01:12:22) training for those transitions that are (01:12:25) so emotionally tough uh because you're (01:12:28) you're almost grieving an identity you (01:12:31) had but then knowing there's a new (01:12:34) version that exists and that push and (01:12:36) pull of do I stay or do I go in in all (01:12:40) of areas of your life and I wonder (01:12:42) Michelle from your perspective and then (01:12:44) of course from yours as well Craig like (01:12:46) and and you mentioned their guilt. Like (01:12:47) I was like what was the what is the (01:12:49) guilt that you feel you've you having to (01:12:51) learn to let go of or in the beautiful (01:12:54) upbringing you had like what were the (01:12:55) things that you're like but these are (01:12:57) certain ideas that aren't serving us (01:12:59) anymore or aren't helping to whom much (01:13:01) is given much is expected (01:13:04) I feel incredibly blessed in this life (01:13:08) you know and it's almost like u knocking (01:13:10) on wood it's like let me never take it (01:13:13) for granted let me always find ways of (01:13:16) giving back. And so the guilt comes from (01:13:19) am I doing enough? You know, which is a (01:13:22) a form of am I enough? Right? That's the (01:13:26) guilt of (01:13:27) feeling should I do this next thing? (01:13:30) Should I say yes when I say no? I mean, (01:13:32) because there's so many requests. (01:13:34) There's so much you can possibly do in (01:13:37) life that you you could never stop. And (01:13:40) I do hold guilt to tell somebody that is (01:13:44) asking for help or needs something to (01:13:46) say I can't or I don't want (01:13:50) to, you know, I mean to even say those (01:13:53) words, it's hard to I don't want to do (01:13:57) that right (01:13:59) now. It's like unpacking that, right? So (01:14:04) to to say that to for me, Michelle (01:14:07) Obama, to say that to a therapist, you (01:14:10) know, I mean, my therapist is like, (01:14:13) "What? You you you still think you (01:14:15) haven't done enough?" And I was like, (01:14:17) "Honestly, yeah." (01:14:19) It's like, "So, let's unpack that." (01:14:23) Um, so yeah, that's, you know, that's (01:14:25) probably what overachievers, we're all (01:14:28) dealing with that in some way, right? (01:14:31) When's enough's enough? What? Where's (01:14:33) the bar? Who sets it? We're setting it (01:14:36) for ourselves. And we keep setting it so (01:14:39) incredibly high, right, at all times. (01:14:43) And then I'm thinking about, well, what (01:14:44) am I modeling for my girls? It's like at (01:14:47) some point, you know, I uh used to say (01:14:50) this to Rosalyn Carter, you know, you (01:14:53) the Carters, they were giving until they (01:14:55) were, you know, they they couldn't walk, (01:14:58) you know, and when I was in the White (01:15:00) House every year, Rosyn Carter would set (01:15:02) up a meeting, you know, cuz she would (01:15:04) want to talk through a set of issues and (01:15:05) things she wanted to do and update me on (01:15:08) everything she was she was just she was (01:15:10) she they were those people constantly (01:15:12) doing and I used to joke with her when (01:15:14) she was in how old must she have been (01:15:17) when I'm in office that requires math. (01:15:19) So let's say she was in her early 80s or (01:15:22) you know she was an older woman who had (01:15:25) done enough and I used to joke it's like (01:15:27) if you don't stop because you're my bar (01:15:32) right and I don't know that I want to be (01:15:34) coming to the White House with an agenda (01:15:37) list when I'm in my 80s right but then I (01:15:41) realized it's like well that's her (01:15:43) bar that doesn't have to be my bar if my (01:15:47) bar is different and So now I'm (01:15:51) practicing out some different bars for (01:15:53) myself, right? Some different limits and (01:15:56) seeing how I really feel in those limits (01:15:59) rather than what I think I'm supposed to (01:16:01) do. So, you know, that's, you know, I it (01:16:05) just makes me sigh just saying it, but (01:16:08) that's how my brain works. And so (01:16:10) sometimes you need help with right (01:16:12) sizing your thinking. Thank you for (01:16:15) sharing that. Thank you for being so (01:16:17) open and vulnerable because I know it (01:16:19) takes a lot to be able to say what (01:16:21) you're saying in therapy to say it out (01:16:23) loud and I can see the emotion on your (01:16:24) face that it's not, you know, something (01:16:26) you're grappling with. It's real. So, (01:16:28) you're working on it right now and and I (01:16:30) hope that gives everyone who's (01:16:31) listening. I know it will give everyone (01:16:33) who's listening and watching courage to (01:16:34) think, yeah, you know, like maybe I'm (01:16:38) setting the bars too high for myself, (01:16:40) you know, whatever that may be or a (01:16:42) different question. But thank you, (01:16:45) Craig. Sorry, I'd love to. No, no, no. I (01:16:47) I that (01:16:48) that's I I I actually thought Mishe was (01:16:51) going to touch on this a little earlier, (01:16:53) but our mom when and and you've been so (01:16:56) gracious to say nice things about us and (01:17:00) our success and all the wonderful things (01:17:02) that that that we've been able to do. (01:17:05) Marian Robinson, our mom, used to say, (01:17:09) "My kids aren't any different from the (01:17:11) kids they grew up with." And she is (01:17:13) absolutely right. She would say, "I was (01:17:17) fortunate enough not to have to go to (01:17:19) work and we encouraged them to work (01:17:22) hard. They they never said you had to (01:17:24) get straight A's. They just said work (01:17:26) hard, have high (01:17:28) self-esteem, you know, treat people (01:17:31) nicely." Uh but she always bragged on (01:17:35) the kids who we grew up with and kids (01:17:38) around the globe. Yeah. She would say (01:17:40) there are a million Michelle Craig and (01:17:43) Baracks, you know. She would say that (01:17:45) would be the first thing. And that's I (01:17:48) take that to heart. Yeah. And that's (01:17:51) where my guilt is. I am fortunate to be (01:17:55) sitting here talking to J. Shetty in his (01:17:58) studio about myself. It just is. It's (01:18:02) almost (01:18:03) embarrassing because I feel like my mom (01:18:06) like I grew up with a ton of guys who (01:18:08) could have been bond traders. Could have (01:18:11) been easy and they just had some (01:18:14) different decisions and different (01:18:16) parenting and different different bumps (01:18:18) in the road bumps in the road that they (01:18:20) couldn't handle. And I do feel guilty (01:18:24) about that which uh sort of like (01:18:26) survivors remorse. Yeah. and and it (01:18:28) explains my sort of wanting to be (01:18:30) philanthropic with my uh time, my (01:18:34) emotions, my stories because they're but (01:18:38) for the grace of God, right? And uh so (01:18:41) she when when she would say that I would (01:18:43) it it'd be like what are you going to (01:18:45) say? She's absolutely right. She is (01:18:47) absolutely right. And she was she led by (01:18:51) example. So, not only did she parent us, (01:18:54) but she was up at the school parenting (01:18:57) other people, helping. I remember when (01:18:59) she taught this kid how to (01:19:02) multiply. And she said, she was like a (01:19:05) room parent. She wasn't the teacher. She (01:19:06) was just coming up to the school to help (01:19:08) before there were room parents. She just (01:19:10) came up and volunteered. And she was (01:19:13) teaching this young kid who was in my (01:19:15) grade, fourth grade, how to multiply. (01:19:18) And he just couldn't figure it out. And (01:19:20) she said, "Multiplication is just adding (01:19:23) multiple times." And and he was like, (01:19:26) "Well, I can't figure this out." And she (01:19:28) said, "Use your fingers." And he said, (01:19:31) "I don't want to use my fingers. I'm in (01:19:33) fourth grade. I'm embarrassed to use my (01:19:34) fingers." And my mom would say, "Well, (01:19:37) then don't show anybody. Just put your (01:19:38) hand on your desk and press down on your (01:19:41) fingers." I was like, "That's ingenious. (01:19:44) That's ingenious." But she was she was (01:19:46) sharing the kind of knowledge with (01:19:48) others that she we we got that every day (01:19:52) every day when we you know so I feel a (01:19:55) little bit of survivors guilt when it (01:19:59) comes to the opportunities that I've had (01:20:03) in my life because I do feel like she (01:20:06) does that it it could have been anybody. (01:20:09) You've both been so gracious and (01:20:11) generous with your time today. I could (01:20:13) truly talk to you for another 3 hours, (01:20:15) but I'm going to end with one last (01:20:18) question for you each. Or maybe two. (01:20:20) Let's two last question. Maybe one one (01:20:23) last question uh for you each and it (01:20:25) would be for you to share with each (01:20:28) other what you believe your mother would (01:20:30) be most proud of, but of each other. (01:20:33) Yeah. All right. I'm going to make him (01:20:34) start so that I don't start crying. If (01:20:37) you could say what your mother would be (01:20:39) most proud about Michelle if she was (01:20:41) here with us today. But if you There's (01:20:43) so many things that my mom would be (01:20:45) proud of. Uh she she would be proud of (01:20:48) her as a parent. Another one of her (01:20:51) greatest compliments was the fact that (01:20:54) she never had to worry about her (01:20:56) grandkids. That that warms both of our (01:20:59) hearts because as Meech said, our you (01:21:01) know, our older kids are off and running (01:21:03) and and not bounced back. And that made (01:21:07) her felt feel (01:21:09) like (01:21:10) she taught us how to be good parents. (01:21:13) And I think and it was the gift of (01:21:16) allowing her to be just grandma. Just a (01:21:20) cool grandma cuz she didn't have to (01:21:22) discipline discipline or raise or yeah (01:21:26) house. She could just come over and (01:21:28) candy for everybody. Jump on the couch (01:21:31) and do whatever you want. and and she (01:21:33) really relished in that role. Uh I think (01:21:37) I think she would be proud of Meech for (01:21:40) that. I think she would be proud of how (01:21:44) Meech has been able to have a colossal (01:21:48) effect on so many people and that (01:21:53) is White House notwithstanding White (01:21:56) House is gone. Look, look at what what (01:21:58) she's doing now. I mean it is it is a (01:22:02) massive (01:22:04) massive lift uplift for so many people (01:22:09) who don't get to to you know be her sis (01:22:13) be her brother or be her husband or or (01:22:16) ch child. So I think those are two (01:22:19) really good (01:22:20) things. But most (01:22:23) importantly, she would be very proud (01:22:25) that she is a terrific wife because we (01:22:31) all revered my father. All of us, my (01:22:35) mom, the kids, all of our relatives, he (01:22:38) was like the the beacon in our family. (01:22:41) And my mom was tough on him, but she (01:22:46) loved him. And Meech reminds me of that (01:22:49) with her relationship with Barack. Just (01:22:52) because you're the president of the (01:22:53) United States doesn't mean you're (01:22:54) getting off easy. My mom would would (01:22:57) like that. But then she would be like, (01:23:00) "He's got a lot of stuff going on. Don't (01:23:01) be so hard on him." You know what I (01:23:04) mean? It's just I think she would (01:23:06) appreciate that. I like that, Craig. (01:23:09) That's a good one. I'm a podcaster now. (01:23:12) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Round this off, (01:23:14) Michelle. Well, um, take it home. What (01:23:16) sums it up is that mom would be so um (01:23:21) proud of the fact that you're a good man (01:23:23) in the world and that you have been a (01:23:27) good fathering for a long long time and (01:23:30) and passing on the the that's a dig cuz (01:23:34) he's an old dad, right? Um still a long (01:23:38) long long time. Um, but passing on the (01:23:42) wisdom, you know, showing up in the (01:23:44) world in a way that would make dad (01:23:46) proud, living out his his his view of (01:23:50) what it means to be a man. Um, and then (01:23:53) sharing that with a lot of other men. I (01:23:56) mean, the fact that you she would be (01:23:58) proud of the fact that you walked away (01:23:59) from a lucrative career in (01:24:02) finance to help other young men figure (01:24:06) out how they can be fast and strong, but (01:24:09) good, too. and build a life for (01:24:11) themselves. That you've taken that same (01:24:13) uh that that same wisdom and you're (01:24:16) finding ways to continue to multiply it. (01:24:18) To whom much is given, she'd be proud of (01:24:21) that. And that you're still here right (01:24:23) by my side. I think that would make her (01:24:27) proud. Thank you both so much. I am so (01:24:31) grateful to welcome you to the world of (01:24:33) podcasting. Uh I hope everyone who's (01:24:35) listening and watching goes and (01:24:36) subscribes to IMO. uh you're gonna get (01:24:40) so much wisdom, so much insight from two (01:24:42) of the smartest, brightest minds, but (01:24:44) two people who have such sweet, soft (01:24:46) hearts. And I love that combination that (01:24:48) you both bring of being absolutely bold (01:24:51) powerhouses. But in the times I've got (01:24:53) to know you both and spend with you (01:24:55) both, you also have the most beautiful (01:24:56) hearts and that combination is (01:24:58) unstoppable. And I am so excited to see (01:25:01) what you both do in this next season of (01:25:04) your life. I'm a friend of family. Yes, (01:25:08) sir. Yes, sir. Yeah. We just have to (01:25:10) meet your sister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We (01:25:15) We're going to drag her up. Hook by hook (01:25:17) her by croak. We're going to drag her up (01:25:19) here. Thank you. Thank you both so much. (01:25:21) Thanks, man. If you enjoyed this (01:25:23) podcast, you're going to love my (01:25:25) conversation with Michelle Obama where (01:25:28) she opens up on how to stay with your (01:25:30) partner when they're changing and the (01:25:33) four check-ins you should be doing in (01:25:35) your relationship. We also talk about (01:25:37) how to deal with relationships when (01:25:39) they're under stress. If you're going (01:25:41) through something right now with your (01:25:43) partner or someone you're seeing, this (01:25:45) is the episode for you. No wonder our (01:25:47) kids are struggling. We have a new (01:25:50) technology and we've just taken it in (01:25:52) hook, line, and sinker. And we have to (01:25:55) be mindful for our kids. They'll just be (01:25:58) thumbming through this stuff. You know, (01:25:59) their their mind's never sleeping.