How Screens Are Rewiring Attention | Dr. Becky, Jonathan Haidt & Catherine Price (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) screens, phones, kids. Okay, look, I (00:00:03) know what you're thinking. What can I (00:00:05) possibly hear that I don't already know? (00:00:07) And maybe you're thinking, "Dr. Becky, (00:00:09) if you say one thing that makes me feel (00:00:11) guilty about these topics, I mean, I am (00:00:13) just trying to survive. Parenting is so (00:00:15) hard." I hear you. And I hear that (00:00:18) thought also, knowing I'm about to dive (00:00:21) into a conversation about these topics. (00:00:23) But here's the other thing. I'm hardly (00:00:26) ever talking to a parent when screens (00:00:29) and phones aren't on their mind. On some (00:00:32) level, they know I feel like it's (00:00:34) affecting my kids behavior and our (00:00:35) connection. It affects my own mood. I (00:00:37) just feel so stuck. It feels like so (00:00:40) much of my life is on the phone. So, (00:00:43) here's the framing of what I want to (00:00:44) talk about today. And I promise you, no (00:00:46) judgment, no shame, no morality. And let (00:00:49) me start by taking myself off a phone (00:00:51) pedestal. I'm on my phone too much. I (00:00:53) sometimes give my kids too much time on (00:00:55) their iPads. I end up yelling in random (00:00:57) moments, everyone off their screens just (00:00:59) because I feel guilty. So, I am right (00:01:01) there with you. (00:01:03) What I have done is brought here two (00:01:07) incredible minds about this topic. (00:01:11) Jonathan Hate and Catherine Price. You (00:01:15) probably know Jonathan from his book, (00:01:17) The Anxious Generation, which I don't (00:01:19) know, took the world by storm. What you (00:01:22) might not know is Jonathan teamed up (00:01:25) with Katherine Price who wrote How to (00:01:27) Break Up with Your Phone and they (00:01:30) created a book for kids. It's called The (00:01:32) Amazing Generation: Your Guide to Fun (00:01:35) and Freedom in a Screenfilled World. And (00:01:38) it came out on December 30th, 2025. And (00:01:41) what I have in store for you is (00:01:42) something amazing, a real conversation (00:01:45) where you're also going to hear about (00:01:47) the struggles we all have in our home in (00:01:49) a very honest way. no pedestal here and (00:01:52) you're going to leave feeling more (00:01:54) empowered, more equipped to make maybe (00:01:57) one or two small shifts and you're going (00:02:01) to have a way to get your kid involved (00:02:03) in the process so you're on the same (00:02:05) team. (00:02:06) I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. (00:02:09) We'll be back right after this and you (00:02:11) do not want to miss this episode. (00:02:16) All right, John. The anxious generation (00:02:18) has been out in the world a little bit (00:02:20) now and I feel like parents know the (00:02:22) headline which is also just a testament (00:02:24) to the power of your message and the way (00:02:27) you tell the story and how much it (00:02:28) resonates with people. Just incredible. (00:02:31) A couple questions following up kind of (00:02:33) the anxious generation since publishing (00:02:37) the book. What is something you've (00:02:39) learned or see differently or maybe want (00:02:42) to put a magnifying glass on cuz you (00:02:44) realize it was even more important than (00:02:46) you realized? (00:02:47) >> Yeah. So, I'll say uh one good, one bad. (00:02:50) Um the good one, the good thing I've (00:02:52) realized is that is that the world (00:02:56) already saw the problems, wanted to do (00:02:58) something, but didn't know what to do. (00:03:00) And this especially was clear with (00:03:01) mothers. What amazed me was the degree (00:03:04) to which mothers around the world as (00:03:06) soon as they got the book, they jumped (00:03:08) into action. They, you know, in the book (00:03:10) we we call for collective action, but (00:03:12) the mothers, you know, I mean, dads read (00:03:14) it and said, "Yeah, I agree with this, (00:03:15) but they didn't they're not like to do (00:03:17) something." The mothers, I mean, it was (00:03:18) instant. Like in Brazil, um mothers got (00:03:21) together, they they worked with a female (00:03:23) legislator, they got legislation (00:03:24) introduced to ban phones in schools, (00:03:26) they got it through the legislature in (00:03:28) 10 months. Um so so that was the the (00:03:31) thing I didn't expect was the speed with (00:03:33) which people would take action around (00:03:35) the world. Um with Australia last week (00:03:38) they raised the age to 16. So that's the (00:03:41) good thing which makes me really (00:03:42) optimistic that we actually can change (00:03:45) this. We can get our kids back from the (00:03:47) technology. (00:03:48) The bad thing that I've realized is that (00:03:51) the problems I described in the anxious (00:03:53) generation I really understated it. that (00:03:56) is I focused on mental illness and I (00:03:58) think I got that right. Like the levels (00:04:00) are horrible and they're and they're (00:04:02) rising. Um but I didn't fully appreciate (00:04:05) the degree to which it's changed the (00:04:07) human ability to pay attention to read a (00:04:10) book to focus to accomplish anything (00:04:14) over a period of time. Um this I think (00:04:17) ultimately might be the biggest damage (00:04:19) that has happened. And so the we have to (00:04:21) look much more broadly when we look at (00:04:23) the effects of this on our kids. Could (00:04:25) you ground that in a story in a moment (00:04:26) just to like bring that to life? (00:04:29) Um so um my students I teach a course at (00:04:33) NYU and so I have my undergrad class is (00:04:36) 31 19 year olds roughly and about a (00:04:40) quarter of them spend 4 hours a day on (00:04:43) social media or more and they the degree (00:04:47) to which it prevents them it from living (00:04:51) it's like it's like it's all they do (00:04:53) other than class is is is watch short (00:04:56) videos and when over the course of the (00:04:59) semester the assignment is you have to (00:05:01) pick something change about yourself (00:05:03) that will make you happier in the long (00:05:04) run and those that are on heavy social (00:05:07) media I say you have to work on this (00:05:08) there's no point in you doing anything (00:05:10) else unless you work on this and when (00:05:12) they do they get their lives back they (00:05:14) say oh I have so much time to do my (00:05:16) homework now so I'm not stressed about (00:05:18) it anymore and I have so much time that (00:05:20) now I go out with my friends like you (00:05:22) come to New York City you're in college (00:05:24) in New York City and all you do is (00:05:26) scroll through Tik Tok like know they're (00:05:28) getting out there. They're going to (00:05:29) Broadway plays. They're exploring parks. (00:05:31) So, um it's amazing to see the way they (00:05:34) come alive when they get their attention (00:05:36) back. (00:05:36) >> Yeah. I have a followup to that because (00:05:38) one of the things I've been talking to (00:05:39) parents a lot about and and it has to do (00:05:42) with how you start your day, but that's (00:05:44) just one manifestation of it. I feel (00:05:46) strongly that if you have young kids, (00:05:48) and look, nothing has to be rigid, but (00:05:50) if every Saturday and Sunday they have x (00:05:52) number of hours of time on the iPad as (00:05:54) the start of their day, the idea that (00:05:56) starting your day with what I call no (00:05:58) effort, high dopamine. (00:06:00) >> Yeah. (00:06:00) >> Mhm. and the idea that later they're (00:06:02) going to like do a puzzle or listen to (00:06:04) you when you want to leave the house or (00:06:07) be able to manage frustration with their (00:06:08) sibling, which requires a lot of effort (00:06:11) and basically no dopamine cuz the best (00:06:13) you get is being like, "Well, I guess (00:06:14) I'm not going to get the blue cup." (00:06:15) Like, you know, okay. Um, right. Um, I (00:06:20) keep saying to parents, we've been (00:06:21) talking about this a lot in our (00:06:22) membership, like I have a million (00:06:24) psychological interventions, but let's (00:06:26) put them all on the shelf. Let's just (00:06:27) look at the rhythm of how you're (00:06:29) spending time. And it's been a really (00:06:31) powerful shift or at least something to (00:06:33) add on. And I think that's kind of in (00:06:35) line with what you're saying. If you're (00:06:36) spending four hours on social media, (00:06:38) forget time, but also how an assignment (00:06:41) from your class is going to feel like (00:06:43) they can't swipe you away. They can't be (00:06:46) like, "Dr. Hey, nope. Nope. Next one." I (00:06:48) don't know if they tried. Do you ever (00:06:49) get that in class? They're like, "No, I (00:06:51) don't I want the next next professor out (00:06:54) >> and you're like, I'm not swipable. I'm (00:06:56) I'm here. This is a class. (00:06:58) >> You paid money for this. (00:07:00) >> But is that in line with kind of also (00:07:02) just the attention, the tolerance of (00:07:04) frustration? (00:07:05) >> Yes. Because the other thing that I do (00:07:08) with the entire class on day one is I (00:07:11) ask them to fill out what are the five (00:07:14) first things you do when you wake up in (00:07:15) the morning. (00:07:16) >> At what point do you go to the bathroom, (00:07:18) drink water, get out of bed, pick up (00:07:21) your phone, and scroll? M and almost (00:07:24) everybody the first thing they do is (00:07:26) look at notifications and catch up. Then (00:07:28) I say now count down at the end of the (00:07:30) day from 5 down to one zero. Zero is you (00:07:33) close your eyes. And again the last (00:07:35) thing they do most of them is check (00:07:37) their phone. And what do they do in (00:07:38) between? Mostly check their phone. So (00:07:40) when I put it to them that way and I say (00:07:42) okay you've got to carve out a time for (00:07:44) yourself to recharge. Uh and so yes. So (00:07:47) like, so how do you end your day to get (00:07:50) a good night's sleep, but you're not (00:07:51) stressed? And how do you begin your day (00:07:54) to develop focus so that you can do the (00:07:56) things that you choose to do? Because (00:07:57) what they're doing is they're handing (00:07:59) over the decisions about their (00:08:01) consciousness to these algorithms. And (00:08:02) the algorithms are going to control them (00:08:03) from the moment they open their eyes to (00:08:05) the moment they close their eyes. So, (00:08:06) just to mirror some of that back, one of (00:08:08) the things it sounds like that's become (00:08:10) even clearer to you since the book is (00:08:12) yes, anxiety, things like that, but (00:08:15) focus, ability to take on hard things, (00:08:18) how people are even spending their time, (00:08:19) and then what comes into their life (00:08:21) because they're spending on their time, (00:08:22) those are even bigger umbrellas for the (00:08:25) impact around phones than maybe even you (00:08:27) realized when you wrote the book. Is (00:08:28) that right? (00:08:28) >> That's right. That's right. (00:08:30) >> Okay, Katherine, speaking about focus, (00:08:33) time, attention, right? I know you've (00:08:36) spoken about how attention is like our (00:08:38) most precious resource, right? Um, and (00:08:41) that in some ways this isn't just some (00:08:43) small topic like there's an existential (00:08:46) nature to giving our attention away or (00:08:50) to not having control over it. Can you (00:08:51) just talk about attention and how phone (00:08:53) use relates to that? (00:08:55) >> Sure. So, my previous book or one of my (00:08:57) previous books was called How to Break (00:08:58) Up with Your Phone, which is for adults. (00:09:00) And so just to piggyback on what you (00:09:02) were just saying, I hear from adults all (00:09:03) the time about how fragmented their (00:09:05) attention feels. Also, how useful it is (00:09:07) to get your phone out of the bedroom and (00:09:08) get a standalone alarm clock because the (00:09:11) reason people check their phone first (00:09:12) thing in the morning is they're (00:09:13) silencing the alarm. (00:09:14) >> Yeah. (00:09:14) >> And when you silence the alarm, you (00:09:16) touch the alarm. And if the alarm's the (00:09:17) phone and it has all these (00:09:18) notifications, well, now you just (00:09:19) allowed someone else to take over your (00:09:21) day. (00:09:22) >> 100%. So, but in terms of the idea of (00:09:24) our attention being our most valuable (00:09:26) resource, that was my biggest personal (00:09:27) takeaway from my previous work, which is (00:09:29) the idea that ultimately we only (00:09:31) remember what we pay attention to (00:09:33) because we only experience what we pay (00:09:34) attention to. And one of my biggest (00:09:36) personal takeaways that I try to remind (00:09:40) myself of as much as I can is that our (00:09:43) lives are what we pay attention to. And (00:09:45) so, every time I or any one of us is (00:09:47) making a decision in the moment about (00:09:48) what to pay attention to, we're making (00:09:50) this much broader decision about how we (00:09:51) want to live our lives. Yeah, (00:09:53) >> but the good news there cuz that sounds (00:09:54) very heavy is that we do have the (00:09:57) ability to decide what to pay attention (00:09:59) to. So if you have that realization and (00:10:01) you say, you know what, I don't want to (00:10:02) spend all my attention on my phone. I (00:10:03) don't want to allow my attention to be (00:10:05) fragmented and lose my ability to focus. (00:10:07) You actually, we as adults and then (00:10:09) doing this for our kids, we have the (00:10:10) ability to take that control there. And (00:10:12) it's actually very inspirational to hear (00:10:13) from people who started trying to build (00:10:15) up their attention span and how quickly (00:10:17) it comes back. Oh, I love anything (00:10:19) around hope, but is this I do I'm I'm a (00:10:22) sucker for hope. What can I say? Um (00:10:25) >> is this more of a systems issue than a (00:10:26) willpower issue? Because one of the (00:10:28) things I say to parents a lot, they're (00:10:29) like, "My kid takes their iPad when it's (00:10:32) not iPad time." My first question, they (00:10:34) always expect me to come down on the (00:10:35) kid. And I'm like, "Where's the iPad (00:10:37) when it's not on iPad time?" They're (00:10:38) like, "It's on the kitchen counter." And (00:10:40) I was like, "Look, I'm just going to (00:10:41) speak for myself. When my phone is on (00:10:43) the kitchen counter and I'm an adult and (00:10:45) I tell myself, don't take my phone. (00:10:46) Don't take my phone. I'm successful.1% (00:10:50) of the time. I mean, I joke my phone has (00:10:52) to be behind two closed doors. I've (00:10:54) tried one. (00:10:55) >> It's just not enough for me. It has to (00:10:56) be two. It's my bedroom door and my (00:10:58) bathroom door, literally. And so, when I (00:11:01) think about a 5-year-old who sees the (00:11:03) most enticing, dopamine-filled, (00:11:05) loweffort, easy, you know, pleasure (00:11:08) device, I feel like it's asking a kid a (00:11:12) lot, which makes me think, is this (00:11:13) willpower? Are there system changes (00:11:16) adults and kids need in your environment (00:11:19) to help get your attention back? (00:11:21) >> Yeah, it' be ridiculous to try to talk (00:11:23) about this this in terms of willpower. (00:11:25) The people who are in charge of (00:11:26) designing the most problematic apps and (00:11:28) devices, hire thousands of engineers (00:11:31) whose job it is to hack our brains and (00:11:34) to get us hooked on their devices in the (00:11:36) same way that slot machines are designed (00:11:38) to hijack our time. And when I say in (00:11:40) the same way, I mean literally they (00:11:43) studied slot machines. It's worth noting (00:11:45) that slot machines are considered to be (00:11:47) so addictive that states don't allow (00:11:49) people under 18 to play them. Yes. And (00:11:52) these tech companies hire people who (00:11:54) copied those techniques, put all of (00:11:56) these dopamine triggers into their apps (00:11:58) that are the same dopamine triggers, (00:12:00) bright colors, variable rewards, you (00:12:03) know, sounds, all these things. They're (00:12:04) in slot machines and they are in (00:12:06) smartphones. In fact, many experts refer (00:12:07) to smartphones as slot machines we keep (00:12:09) in our pockets. So, if you're not going (00:12:11) to expect an adult to be able to resist (00:12:13) with willpower the call of a slot (00:12:14) machine, it's absolutely ridiculous to (00:12:16) think that our kids would be able to (00:12:18) resist a device in an app that's been (00:12:20) deliberately designed to addict them. (00:12:21) >> Yeah. (00:12:22) >> I know John has thoughts on this, too. (00:12:24) >> Yeah. Yeah. No, if I could add in (00:12:25) because this is the central challenge (00:12:27) that my students wrestled with. How do (00:12:28) you change your habitual behavior? And (00:12:31) the underlying psychology that that they (00:12:33) find helpful um is that the mind is (00:12:35) divided into parts that sometimes (00:12:36) conflict. And the metaphor that I (00:12:38) developed in my first book, the (00:12:40) happiness hypothesis, which was about (00:12:41) ancient wisdom, what were the ancients (00:12:42) right about? Almost everything when it (00:12:44) comes to psychology, um is that the if (00:12:47) you think of your mind as being like a (00:12:49) small rider on top of a very large (00:12:51) elephant, the elephant is very smart. (00:12:53) The elephant is all of the intuitive (00:12:55) processes, the emotions, the automatic (00:12:57) things that our brains do because our (00:12:58) brains are very, very smart. (00:13:01) The rider is the thing that is our (00:13:03) conscious reasoning. And if you like (00:13:05) close your eyes and you're thinking like (00:13:06) that's the rider, that little thing (00:13:08) that's like got the language and that (00:13:10) little thing says I'm only going to have (00:13:12) one piece of chocolate here. I'm (00:13:14) speaking very very personally. I realize (00:13:16) I know. Yeah. As soon as I take a piece (00:13:19) of chocolate, I'm going to go through (00:13:20) the whole back. I It's very hard for me (00:13:21) to stop myself. (00:13:22) >> You are not alone. (00:13:23) >> So we we see you. So the so the rider is (00:13:28) is like what we're aware of. But the (00:13:30) thing is the rider is not in control of (00:13:32) the elephant. In fact, the rider (00:13:34) evolved, language evolved to make us (00:13:36) more effective at manipulating others, (00:13:39) at dealing with our environment. Which (00:13:40) is why you would say, you know, if (00:13:42) you're going to go for the second piece (00:13:43) or if you're going to go for the iPad, (00:13:45) your reasoning isn't saying, "No, don't (00:13:47) do it." Your reason say, "Well, just (00:13:48) this once. I was good yesterday. Oh, I (00:13:50) deserve this." You know, so our the the (00:13:52) reasoning is in service of the elephant. (00:13:55) And what this means is that if you want (00:13:57) to change your behavior, your habitual (00:13:58) patterns, you must change the elephant. (00:14:01) You have to change the habitual thing. (00:14:03) And that takes time. It takes a few (00:14:04) weeks. So you got to develop habits and (00:14:06) patterns and uh and over time that will (00:14:09) train the elephant. But if you put it (00:14:11) all on willpower (00:14:12) >> and I tell my students, you are not (00:14:14) allowed to do that. That is a guaranteed (00:14:15) fail in this course. If you say, "Well, (00:14:17) I'm going to be nicer to people, and I'm (00:14:19) just going to do it by being nicer to (00:14:20) people." Like, no, that's not going to (00:14:22) work. You have to have a system. (00:14:24) >> Well, well, I think I just I love this (00:14:26) because it takes away so much of the (00:14:27) shame and self-lame, which ironically I (00:14:30) tell parents all the time, like the (00:14:32) >> the best way to let yourself off the (00:14:35) hook for change is to blame and shame (00:14:38) yourself. Like, because it freezes your (00:14:40) body. It's a freeze response from an (00:14:42) animal defense state. When you blame and (00:14:43) shame yourself, you're frozen. You can't (00:14:45) change when you're frozen. So people (00:14:47) somehow got this idea that any type of (00:14:49) more compassionate understanding. The (00:14:52) phone thing I it's just it's not a (00:14:54) willpower thing. It's actually designed (00:14:57) to make me feel like it's never been (00:14:59) enough and like it's the answer to all (00:15:01) my problems forever. So if I tell myself (00:15:04) it's my problem, I should be stronger. (00:15:06) That's the best way to make sure you (00:15:08) never change. It's like so ironic (00:15:10) because when people hear, "Oh, so it's (00:15:12) not really my fault." Well, first of (00:15:13) all, that doesn't mean it's not your (00:15:14) responsibility. It could still be our (00:15:15) responsibility to think of a new system, (00:15:18) but the system has to change. And I tell (00:15:20) parents, cuz parents tell me a lot, "My (00:15:22) kids's going to have to learn how to (00:15:23) deal with this at some point (00:15:24) >> at age, right?" But I say (00:15:26) >> about smoking and everything else. (00:15:29) >> Or I think about someone who wants to (00:15:30) stop drinking, (00:15:32) >> a friend who wants to stop drinking. We (00:15:34) never like, "Hey, meet me at the bar. (00:15:35) You're gonna have to figure this out." (00:15:36) Like, it's a what? Like, you can't put (00:15:38) someone into the fire and expect them (00:15:39) not to have to deal with the fire. They (00:15:41) need a period where their urges are (00:15:43) developing, their brains are developing, (00:15:45) and where they've seen that they can (00:15:47) develop a life outside of a phone to be (00:15:50) able to over time make better decisions. (00:15:52) >> Another analogy I hear people sometimes (00:15:54) make is like, well, kids need to learn (00:15:56) how to swim, so you shouldn't keep them (00:15:57) out of pools, right? And I'm like, okay, (00:15:59) can we just talk about that for a (00:16:00) second? What if that pool was filled (00:16:02) with pedophiles, you know, and there's (00:16:04) someone in the corner who's like, (00:16:06) >> "How do we get there?" (00:16:07) >> Sorry, really quick. It gets dark really (00:16:08) fast. I'm super fun at holiday parties. (00:16:10) Um, but you know, and there's someone in (00:16:13) the corner who's like teaching people (00:16:14) how to harm themselves, right? And then (00:16:16) you've got a violent movie. It's a pool (00:16:18) party with this violent like beheading. (00:16:20) You would never let your kid learn. (00:16:23) That's not where you learn to swim. (00:16:24) >> Don't learn to swim in that pool, (00:16:26) >> right? (00:16:26) >> So, yeah. (00:16:27) >> I like the swimming metaphor, too. And (00:16:28) just to extend it without pedophiles, (00:16:30) just cuz my metaphor doesn't (00:16:33) >> is most people want their kids to be (00:16:34) able to swim in an ocean. (00:16:35) >> Yeah. (00:16:35) >> And nobody starts by teaching your kid (00:16:37) how to swim in an ocean. People start in (00:16:39) a training pool, but no one says that's (00:16:41) so insane. They have to learn how to (00:16:43) swim in an ocean. Like the only way you (00:16:45) can make better choices in more (00:16:48) complicated environments is you actually (00:16:50) have environments that help you learn (00:16:52) skills. So we start in a training pool, (00:16:54) we move to a deeper pool, eventually we (00:16:56) go to an ocean, right? And I think it's (00:16:57) the same thing. There's a period of time (00:16:59) where kids have to be in a training (00:17:01) pool. Like we have to help set up their (00:17:04) environment to learn. (00:17:05) >> Yeah. Yeah. I'd also say though to flip (00:17:07) that a little bit is that we want kids (00:17:09) to be able to swim in the ocean of real (00:17:11) life. (00:17:11) >> Exactly. (00:17:12) >> And that's what's not happening. So we (00:17:14) talk about like where are you teaching (00:17:15) your kids to swim? Where is that kiddie (00:17:17) pool? (00:17:18) >> It should be learning how to have (00:17:20) conversations with people. It should be (00:17:21) learning how to stay your attention, (00:17:23) right? So yeah. And John, I know you've (00:17:25) got a lot to say about that. (00:17:26) >> Yeah. Now just because I was, you know, (00:17:27) I I love metaphors. I think in metaphors (00:17:28) and something was bothering me about the (00:17:30) swimming metaphor. I think I got it. Um, (00:17:33) swimming really is something that (00:17:34) everyone has to do (00:17:36) >> and has to learn to do. And when you (00:17:39) swim, it doesn't damage you. It doesn't (00:17:40) damage your brain. Okay. But what we're (00:17:43) talking about here is much more like (00:17:45) drinking. (00:17:46) >> Okay. Does everyone have to learn how to (00:17:48) drink? Maybe. I mean, in some religions, (00:17:51) maybe not. But, um, in general, you're (00:17:52) going to be exposed to alcohol. But if (00:17:55) we start our kids when they're two on (00:17:57) alcohol, while the brain is developing (00:17:58) very rapidly, you're not preparing them (00:18:01) to be better drinkers. They're not going (00:18:02) to be more effective drinkers because (00:18:04) they started at age two. The brain is (00:18:06) wiring up very very quickly based on (00:18:09) input from the outside (00:18:11) >> and that is happening especially (00:18:13) prenatally. So we you know that's why (00:18:14) mothers have to be very careful about (00:18:16) alcohol. Um so prenatally and in the (00:18:18) first year or two very very rapid and (00:18:21) then at puberty very very rapid and so (00:18:24) the idea that oh well you know they're (00:18:26) going to be on social media when they're (00:18:27) grown-ups so let's let's put them on at (00:18:29) age 11 or 12 which is what we do most (00:18:31) kids are getting actually Tik Tok is (00:18:32) usually before age 10 (00:18:34) >> Instagram Snapchat or 10 11 uh we're (00:18:37) saying how about if before you start (00:18:39) puberty we're going to rewire everything (00:18:41) so that you're not out playing with (00:18:42) you're just you're just doing this all (00:18:43) day long you're getting freaked out by (00:18:45) people So this is rewiring your brain. (00:18:48) So this is not swimming. This is (00:18:50) drinking hard alcohol when you're young. (00:18:52) Don't do it. You know, and that's what (00:18:54) we advocate for is wait till 16 for (00:18:56) social media. There's really they don't (00:18:57) kids don't need it. It hurts them. (00:19:00) >> Yeah. (00:19:00) >> We're talking about kids and phones. And (00:19:02) I think an element of the conversation (00:19:03) that I love that you guys always bring (00:19:05) to it and it's something I think about a (00:19:06) lot too is our kids' relationships with (00:19:09) phones and devices is also really (00:19:11) impacted by our relationship with phones (00:19:14) and devices and what we're doing in the (00:19:16) home and what we're modeling in the (00:19:18) home. And so I'm just curious from your (00:19:21) perspective, how has that impacted (00:19:23) family life, us being on our phones? (00:19:26) >> Yeah. Well, let's start with what we (00:19:27) know about what these devices have done (00:19:29) to all of us. I was just talking with a (00:19:32) marriage therapist the other day and you (00:19:34) can guess what she said. (00:19:36) >> Couples are not having much sex or at (00:19:38) least having a lot less. Everyone's (00:19:40) exhausted. Uh you get into bed and your (00:19:43) spouse is already scrolling and so then (00:19:45) you scroll and then you both just kind (00:19:46) of get you fall asleep. Um so the phone (00:19:50) is an experience blocker and a (00:19:52) relationship blocker. The phone connects (00:19:54) you to thousands of people including (00:19:56) pedophiles sometimes. Let's keep that in (00:19:57) play here. But the thing is as it (00:19:59) connects you to all those people far (00:20:01) away, it necessarily disconnects you (00:20:04) from the people physically around you (00:20:05) necessarily. That has to be the case. (00:20:08) >> So just what it's doing to marriages is (00:20:11) terrible. Okay. Now that's two adults. (00:20:15) Now you've got this infant who's first (00:20:17) struggling just to do the the eye (00:20:19) contact thing, struggling just to get (00:20:21) the reciprocity going in those first (00:20:22) weeks and months. You have to be there (00:20:24) for that. You have to be totally (00:20:26) attentive. And if they see the back of (00:20:27) the phone a lot and if they make a (00:20:29) little bit or when they start smiling (00:20:30) nothing comes back that's really bad for (00:20:33) their development. So um because these (00:20:36) devices are are are relationship (00:20:38) blockers and presence blockers they're (00:20:40) terrible especially in early childhood. (00:20:43) Um so yeah and then it just goes on from (00:20:45) there. (00:20:46) >> Yeah I would add to that cuz then some (00:20:48) people may be like oh my god wait what (00:20:50) did I what have I done? It's really (00:20:51) important to not have self-lame and (00:20:53) shame in this conversation, just as (00:20:55) you're saying, Becky, because then you (00:20:56) end up paralyzed. There's no reason for (00:20:57) that. And I say that to adults I work (00:20:59) with with their own phone relationships. (00:21:01) Best time to change. Maybe it was a (00:21:03) while ago, but it's right now. Like, you (00:21:04) have to start now. Always. (00:21:06) >> And yeah, and to John's point, I (00:21:07) actually had that experience with my own (00:21:09) daughter where I was holding her when (00:21:10) she was a baby and I realized that I was (00:21:11) looking at my phone instead of her. And (00:21:13) that actually inspired How to Break Up (00:21:14) with Your Phone. Um, because babies can (00:21:16) only focus about 10 to 12 inches in (00:21:18) front of their face. But that was uh the (00:21:21) impact of not responding to your kid's (00:21:23) face was shown in this experiment called (00:21:25) the still face experiment. (00:21:26) >> A very well-known experiment that's been (00:21:28) replicated numerous times. And basically (00:21:30) the idea was having a parent interact (00:21:31) with their baby normally for a couple (00:21:33) minutes and then go totally still face (00:21:34) with no no reaction for a couple minutes (00:21:37) and then they monitor what happens to (00:21:38) the babies. They get incredibly (00:21:40) distressed. Their cortisol levels spike. (00:21:43) I bring that up though because one thing (00:21:44) that Trernick says at the end of this (00:21:47) clip that I'm referring to, he says the (00:21:49) good news is that if you reestablish (00:21:51) that connection, you can undo some of (00:21:53) that. So I would say to anyone (00:21:55) listening, this is just a wakeup call (00:21:57) for us and we should just listen to it. (00:22:00) But starting today, right now, you can (00:22:02) start to model habits yourself that will (00:22:04) really bring you closer to your (00:22:06) children, to your partner. You know, we (00:22:09) can open up a conversation. So there's (00:22:11) no reason to feel bad about what's (00:22:12) happened in the past, but let's talk (00:22:13) about how we can move forward. (00:22:15) >> I I I do think any type of learning (00:22:18) around parenting is the most vulnerable (00:22:20) thing we do because as soon as we learn (00:22:22) a new idea that makes you say, oh, I (00:22:25) didn't know that or I hadn't thought (00:22:26) about that before. I think most parents (00:22:28) go right to I up my kid. That's (00:22:30) it. Like I messed up my kid forever and (00:22:32) right. And so even being open to a new (00:22:34) idea, every parent knows like, oh, I'm (00:22:37) I'm kind of bringing myself to the edge (00:22:38) of the worst parent thought ever, right? (00:22:41) Which is I messed everything up. I'm a (00:22:43) failure. And what you're saying is so (00:22:45) true. Learning is so important. It's (00:22:48) just been that parenting has been one (00:22:50) last area where we've made it seem like (00:22:52) we shouldn't learn. Oh, you have (00:22:54) everything you need. You have instinct. (00:22:55) And so it's a new thing in our (00:22:56) generation to be like, we can learn in (00:22:58) parenting. But to watch for that shame. (00:23:01) I think that's exactly right. And I (00:23:03) think just specifically with what you're (00:23:05) saying, I know the experience. I'm sure (00:23:06) you guys do too, unless your marriages (00:23:09) are, you know, just 100% perfect. Tell (00:23:11) me your secrets after is I know the (00:23:13) feeling of trying to talk to my husband (00:23:15) when he's on his phone. And I know what (00:23:17) that feels like. And I'm a fairly well (00:23:19) psychologically resourced 40some year (00:23:22) old, I will say. Okay. Um, and I do (00:23:25) think, you know, one of the things I (00:23:26) think that kids are always asking their (00:23:28) environment, even though they never ask (00:23:30) it, and I honestly think adults are too (00:23:33) is, am I real? (00:23:35) >> I really think that's what a baby's (00:23:36) question is. They don't know. They don't (00:23:38) like, "Am I real?" And I think when I (00:23:40) think about the Tronic experiment from (00:23:41) all my learnings, the reason you want (00:23:43) responsiveness, I'm I'm going to tear up (00:23:46) is because it's a way of saying you're (00:23:48) real. (00:23:48) >> Yeah. (00:23:49) >> You did this thing (00:23:50) >> and you see a reaction. You are a real (00:23:52) person here. And at every age, that (00:23:56) matters. Which also means at any age (00:23:57) that a parent's listening to this, (00:24:00) repair is where everything's at. You can (00:24:02) say to your kid, I was listening to this (00:24:03) podcast. I was thinking beyond my phone (00:24:06) being annoying because I know I'm on it (00:24:08) a lot. I think it gets in the way of us (00:24:11) being closer and I know other people do (00:24:14) that. It help that happens to me. I just (00:24:16) want to name that and own that. And I'm (00:24:19) going to try to do a better job. And if (00:24:21) I don't call me out, give me a give me a (00:24:24) review. Hey, you're doing the phone (00:24:26) thing again. And and if we enlist our (00:24:28) kids to even help us and we look at the (00:24:30) feedback as helping us align with our (00:24:32) values rather than our kids telling us (00:24:34) we're a bad mom or dad, that system can (00:24:37) move things really quickly. (00:24:38) >> Yeah, I would even take that a step (00:24:39) further. I mean, I I see that all the (00:24:41) time. Or I always am encouraging parents (00:24:43) who are concerned about their own phone (00:24:45) habits or their kids. It's like, okay, (00:24:46) let's turn the mirror on ourselves and (00:24:48) ask our kids, "Hey, how do you feel when (00:24:49) I'm around my I'm using my phone in (00:24:51) front of you. And I ask kids that when I (00:24:52) give talks, I say, "Have you ever felt (00:24:54) ignored because your parent was on their (00:24:55) phone?" All the hands go up. But the way (00:24:58) I think we can approach that as adults (00:24:59) to again like not just start beating (00:25:01) ourselves up about it is say exactly (00:25:03) what you're saying. Talk to your kids (00:25:04) about, "Hey, I noticed that this might (00:25:07) be having an effect on you. Totally (00:25:09) blame us. Say that you listen to this (00:25:10) podcast and say, "How do you feel when (00:25:12) I'm on my phone? Is there anything I can (00:25:13) do? And can you call me out on it?" My (00:25:15) husband and I actually did something (00:25:16) where we came up with a code word for (00:25:18) our daughter because I also know in a (00:25:19) lot of marriages this can be a fraught (00:25:21) conversation, right? Where it's like (00:25:22) everyone gets super defensive. So, which (00:25:25) thankfully was not our situation, but we (00:25:27) were like, let's come up with a code (00:25:28) word that our daughter can say when she (00:25:30) feels like one of us has been on the (00:25:31) phone. And I think she chose for some (00:25:32) reason asparagus. (00:25:34) >> It's usually a food banana. (00:25:35) >> Banana, you know, and then it's like (00:25:37) kind of like a gentle gentle reminder (00:25:39) that oh right, I so it doesn't feel (00:25:41) confrontational or like an attack. But (00:25:42) anyway, I think if you can bring a bit (00:25:44) of playfulness and a bit of honestly (00:25:46) vulnerability to the situation, it helps (00:25:48) you connect with your kids and it helps (00:25:50) us all get on the same side. It's not an (00:25:52) us versus them thing. It's us versus (00:25:55) companies that are trying to addict our (00:25:56) children and hack our brains. (00:25:58) >> Yeah. Just like to add on I was thinking (00:26:01) about what you said about, you know, do (00:26:03) am I real? Do I exist? That's very (00:26:05) powerful. (00:26:06) >> I'd like to suggest a slightly different (00:26:08) word. I I think what they're asking (00:26:10) themselves what we're all asking (00:26:11) ourselves is do I matter? And so it's (00:26:14) it's similar. It's like am I real to (00:26:16) this person? Am I a person of worth? Am (00:26:18) I a and the reason what what lit up for (00:26:20) me when you said that was that the the (00:26:22) saddest graph in the anxious generation (00:26:24) is the one about a survey question given (00:26:26) to a lot of high school seniors since (00:26:28) the 1970s. Um um my uh my life often (00:26:33) feels useless. Do you agree or disagree (00:26:35) with that on a fivepoint scale? And what (00:26:37) we see is that in the '90s when they (00:26:39) first added that question um the it was (00:26:42) about uh it was about 17% or so said yes (00:26:46) agree or or strongly disagree and then (00:26:48) that's Gen X and then as the millennials (00:26:50) go through it goes down a little bit (00:26:52) maybe down to 14%. Um and then all of a (00:26:55) sudden in 2012 2013 when Gen Z enters (00:26:59) the data set this is born 1996 and later (00:27:02) it it doubles it goes up very very (00:27:04) quickly and this is before co so (00:27:07) something happens so that our young (00:27:09) people born after 1999 959 96 they just (00:27:14) feel that their lives are useless they (00:27:16) don't matter and of course because if (00:27:18) all you're doing you know 5 hours a day (00:27:19) is the average amount of time that's the (00:27:21) average that kids spend on social media (00:27:23) media and that's mostly scroll. That's (00:27:25) mostly short videos. So, and if that's (00:27:27) what you do all day long, you go to (00:27:28) classes and you scroll, your life is (00:27:30) useless. You're not doing anything. And (00:27:32) so, anything we can do to convey to our (00:27:35) kids, you matter. You matter to me. You (00:27:37) matter because you're doing these things (00:27:39) that help out our family. You're doing (00:27:41) these errands for us later when you're a (00:27:42) little older. So, yeah, we have a (00:27:44) mattering crisis. (00:27:46) >> Yeah. And one of the easiest ways to (00:27:48) Yeah. show your kids that they matter is (00:27:49) to be present with them. And so there's (00:27:51) just some easy changes that everyone can (00:27:52) make, even starting today to help with (00:27:54) that. One is to get the phone away from (00:27:57) meal times. Say, "All right, we're going (00:27:59) to be present with each other. This is a (00:28:00) time when we can spend time together, (00:28:02) and I want to be present with you, and (00:28:04) so we're going to keep our phones away. (00:28:06) You can have a family charging station (00:28:07) for devices that's not in anyone's (00:28:09) bedroom. Really important, you know, and (00:28:11) you can have conversations with your (00:28:13) kids about this. Ask them to call you (00:28:14) out on it." So, I just think there's a (00:28:15) lot of little things, little tweaks, (00:28:16) getting alarm clocks so that, you know, (00:28:18) people are actually not having their (00:28:20) days hijacked, but there's a lot of (00:28:21) little changes we can make starting now (00:28:24) that can make really big differences in (00:28:26) our relationships with the other people (00:28:27) who matter the most to us. (00:28:29) >> I I love those concrete suggestions. (00:28:31) They're so manageable and I want to (00:28:33) bridge the gap a little bit between any (00:28:35) parent being like, "Yes, I want to do (00:28:37) that." And I think the thing that can (00:28:38) stop parents, right, and just to like (00:28:40) bust a couple of them. So, number one, (00:28:42) like, it's kind of too late. like I'll (00:28:44) do that for my next kid or I'll tell my (00:28:46) sister to do that but my kid already has (00:28:48) the device in their room or we already (00:28:50) have a different charging system and I (00:28:52) think I hear a lot from parents like I (00:28:54) don't want I I can't change my mind or I (00:28:56) don't want to go back on something I (00:28:58) said and and I just think this (00:28:59) perspective is important that the only (00:29:02) thing we promise our kids I think is (00:29:04) that we're going to always do the best (00:29:05) we can with the resources we have (00:29:06) available in the name of protecting them (00:29:10) long term. So much of being a good (00:29:11) parent is making decisions that your kid (00:29:14) doesn't like short term because you (00:29:15) think it's good for them long term. And (00:29:17) if you think about that as your job, (00:29:19) well, as you get more information, oh, I (00:29:22) listen to this podcast, you might quote (00:29:25) change your decision on the surface, but (00:29:26) that's a very surface level look. What (00:29:29) you're actually doing is being (00:29:30) remarkably consistent because you're (00:29:32) saying, I'm still making the best (00:29:34) decision I could with the resources I (00:29:36) have, right? And so I do think it's (00:29:39) helpful to compare it to a pilot where (00:29:41) when you get on a flight in New York and (00:29:42) you're going to LA, even if it's (00:29:43) something very important. I'm going to (00:29:45) this meeting. I have a wedding. On some (00:29:48) level, your ticket is promised to get to (00:29:50) LA. But if your pilot says, "Hey, I got (00:29:53) new information. You know, I think we're (00:29:55) going to crash." Whatever it is, right? (00:29:57) I got new information. There's some bad (00:29:58) lights going off. And they say, "We're (00:30:00) gonna have to land in Kansas." (00:30:02) >> And then you say, "But you promised LA." (00:30:05) And your pilot's like, "You know what? (00:30:07) You're right. I did. Forget it. Forget (00:30:10) it. Forget it. You're right. Let's go." (00:30:12) You freak out as a passenger. And in (00:30:15) some ways, even though the pilot changes (00:30:17) the landing spot, they're actually are (00:30:19) being remarkably consistent in their (00:30:21) job, which is to keep passengers safe (00:30:23) with the information they have. And so, (00:30:25) I think when parents look at it that (00:30:27) way, they don't think of it as changing (00:30:29) their mind. They actually think about it (00:30:31) as doing their job consistently. It's (00:30:33) just that the application looks (00:30:35) different. And so I just really want to (00:30:37) make sure parents listening hear that (00:30:39) because it affirms a change in decision (00:30:42) while it also affirms remaining (00:30:44) remarkably consistent to what your job (00:30:47) is in the house. And (00:30:48) >> I really want to underline the the power (00:30:50) of that metaphor. I first heard when you (00:30:51) and I started working together in 2024, (00:30:54) I first heard it and and I was kind of (00:30:57) kicking myself because it was like I if (00:30:59) only I'd known that two years two or (00:31:01) three years earlier because also (00:31:03) emphasizing Katherine's point about (00:31:05) having empathy for how hard it is to be (00:31:07) a parent. (00:31:08) >> I you know I've been studying so like I (00:31:10) did a good job keeping my kids away from (00:31:11) social media. That's what I was (00:31:12) studying. Like I said, no, you're not (00:31:13) having I did a good job of that. where I (00:31:15) fell down was the kids had had uh uh (00:31:19) their computers and often their phones (00:31:22) in their bedrooms and you know during co (00:31:25) >> but even but you know after co like you (00:31:27) know and my wife urged me like you know (00:31:29) make you know make them get it all out (00:31:30) we got the um (00:31:32) >> but I wasn't firm with my son who was (00:31:34) already a junior in high school and (00:31:36) senior you know and (00:31:37) >> and he you know and he argued back and I (00:31:39) gave in. (00:31:39) >> Yeah. And so I just want to first of all (00:31:41) empathize like you know we're not (00:31:42) sitting up here like we're the experts (00:31:44) you should do like (00:31:45) >> off the pedestal. Let's get we can like (00:31:47) get on the floor. (00:31:48) >> Yeah. So we it's hard. I I want to just (00:31:51) acknowledge it's hard. But I really (00:31:52) would like again if I had heard you if I (00:31:54) had heard that metaphor a few years ago (00:31:56) I would have been able to stick to it. (00:31:58) So I really want everybody watching to (00:32:00) really take that seriously. (00:32:01) >> Yeah. And I also been very grateful to (00:32:03) Dr. Becky for some of the scripts that (00:32:05) you give parents. I quote them in my own (00:32:07) talks. But since we're here with you, (00:32:08) can I ask you to like can you remind us (00:32:10) of how you phrase it cuz you literally (00:32:11) have phrasing parents can use when kids (00:32:13) come back to you? (00:32:14) >> Yeah. So, I think the first thing that I (00:32:15) don't always articulate but matters so (00:32:17) much cuz I asked this in a live event we (00:32:19) did in our membership. When you're about (00:32:21) to deliver a decision to your kid that (00:32:23) you kind of know they're going to push (00:32:24) back about, what percent conviction do (00:32:26) you have in your own decision? Guess (00:32:29) what the ranges were that people shared? (00:32:32) >> 0 to 30. 0 to 30. (00:32:34) >> And I was like, you know what? forget (00:32:35) any script. Because if you're going into (00:32:38) telling your kid that you're no longer (00:32:40) going to let them charge the phone in (00:32:43) their room and you say it like this, (00:32:44) which is what it sounds like with 30% (00:32:46) conviction. Hey, there's no more phone (00:32:48) in your room. Okay. Don't you think it (00:32:51) would be a good idea? Like I picture my (00:32:54) kid being like, are you asking me to do (00:32:56) your job? Like I'm a 16-year-old boy. (00:32:59) I'm not (00:33:00) >> It's like the pilot being like, "We're (00:33:01) maybe not going to go to Los Angeles." I (00:33:03) don't know. What do you guys think? Who (00:33:05) thinks an emergency landing is a good (00:33:06) idea? What? Right? If you have a hund (00:33:09) and and that's why the first work and I (00:33:10) think this matters so much. It's not (00:33:12) just clinical psychology jargon. You (00:33:14) have to look in the mirror and say it (00:33:16) over and over until you can look in the (00:33:18) mirror and be like, I believe myself. (00:33:19) And and the best part of being a parent, (00:33:22) I mean this. I don't need my kids (00:33:24) permission to do anything I think is (00:33:25) best. It's actually like empowering when (00:33:27) you realize that. It's scary, but I'm (00:33:29) like I'm not five anymore. It's kind of (00:33:31) powerful. So you have to find that (00:33:33) appropriate. We always say at goods (00:33:35) inside it's authority without (00:33:36) aggression. It's authority without (00:33:38) aggression. Then I can say to my kid and (00:33:41) this is something I also went over (00:33:42) recently. How many of you have started a (00:33:44) sentence like this with your kid? I want (00:33:45) to tell you about a decision I've made. (00:33:47) Everyone's like can I say that? Yes you (00:33:49) can. There are certain times you don't (00:33:51) need to but I want to tell you about a (00:33:52) decision I've made. I've been learning (00:33:54) about the impact and this is just one (00:33:55) example of having your phone in the room (00:33:57) at night. And I know you've had that (00:33:58) from the start. So, trust me, changing (00:34:01) that, I'm not expecting it to be smooth (00:34:03) sailing on your end. But I've learned (00:34:06) how that can affect your sleep and other (00:34:08) things. And I want to tell you about a (00:34:09) decision I've made that starting (00:34:11) tonight, your phone will no longer (00:34:13) charge in your room. Now, to clarify, I (00:34:15) don't expect you to say thank you. I (00:34:17) actually expect you to give me a hard (00:34:18) time for at least 18 days about it. And (00:34:21) even though I've changed my mind in the (00:34:22) past, I won't this time. And if it (00:34:25) matters, I know that my job is making (00:34:28) decisions that I believe are good for (00:34:30) you. Even if you're not happy with me, (00:34:32) that's actually how much I love you. And (00:34:34) this is just going to be one of those (00:34:36) decisions, and I know we'll get through (00:34:37) it. Now, I think people think when I say (00:34:39) these things to my kids on some level, (00:34:41) they're like, "Sturdy leadership. That (00:34:44) was it, Mom." No. No. The way you get (00:34:47) rewarded for making your best decisions (00:34:49) as a parent is whining and like random (00:34:51) words that come out. I hate you. you (00:34:53) okay? You know, but just like a CEO gets (00:34:56) when they make a hard decision. But if (00:34:58) you have the conviction and yes, you (00:35:00) have some starter language just to like (00:35:02) get in there. And if you anticipate your (00:35:04) kid's push back, you can say this weird (00:35:07) thing at the end. (00:35:09) Like kind of that all went according to (00:35:10) plan. Even my kid's argument, I I (00:35:13) predicted the whole thing, which doesn't (00:35:15) make it easy. But to me, with parenting, (00:35:18) often the best we get is bringing (00:35:20) impossible to difficult. It ne (00:35:23) impossible never gets to easy. It just (00:35:25) doesn't. And if you know that, it's (00:35:26) manageable. (00:35:27) >> Although I think if you give your kids, (00:35:28) the amazing generation, it will get a (00:35:30) lot easier. (00:35:31) >> So tell me about that. Yeah. Yeah. So as (00:35:33) soon as the anxious generation came out, (00:35:35) parents, mothers, and quickly began (00:35:37) asking us, (00:35:38) >> is there something I can share with my (00:35:39) child? I'd say, well, I have a video you (00:35:41) could show them. But (00:35:42) >> but there was no there was nothing (00:35:43) written. (00:35:44) >> And so we had the idea to create a a (00:35:46) children's version of the book. And we (00:35:48) looked into hiring a person who could, (00:35:50) you know, write for children. Um, and (00:35:52) Katherine and I had already been working (00:35:53) together a little bit. We'd been talking (00:35:54) about issues about fun and play. Um, and (00:35:58) so, and she heard we were doing this and (00:36:00) she volunteered for it and my team, we (00:36:02) we talked with her about it and she had (00:36:03) all these great ideas for how to make it (00:36:05) not just like rewritten for kids. This (00:36:06) is a totally new book. It has a graphic (00:36:08) novel. It tells sort of the story in a (00:36:10) graphic novel. It tells the story in the (00:36:11) main text. There's all kinds of callout (00:36:13) boxes and a lot of testimonials from (00:36:15) rebels, we call them, from young people (00:36:17) who have said like, "No, like this has (00:36:19) taken my my childhood." Um, so the idea (00:36:23) is, um, if kids see a vision of (00:36:28) childhood that is enticing, this isn't (00:36:30) just I'm taking away the thing that's at (00:36:32) the center of your life. This is, do you (00:36:34) do you want to have the kind of (00:36:35) childhood that that that your parents (00:36:37) and your grandparents had. You've heard (00:36:38) us talk about it. You've seen movies (00:36:39) that took place in the 80s and '90s. You (00:36:41) see that kids used to be out on (00:36:42) bicycles. Do you want that or do you (00:36:44) want to just scroll like your older (00:36:46) siblings or your older cousins and they (00:36:48) say they want this? So uh so Katherine (00:36:51) tell tell the good people more about (00:36:53) this book. (00:36:53) >> Well I thank you Jonathan. Um no we (00:36:55) really wanted to make something that (00:36:57) would take the core messages of the (00:36:58) anxious generation um and the takeaways (00:37:01) from that which are the four norms that (00:37:03) John writes about which the idea that we (00:37:05) should delay our kids access to (00:37:06) smartphones and social media till at (00:37:07) least 14 for smartphones if not later (00:37:10) and at least 16 for social media. We (00:37:12) need to get phones out of schools, which (00:37:13) is happening at an amazing rate, and we (00:37:15) also need to help our kids have more (00:37:16) independence and free play and (00:37:17) responsibility in the real world. So, we (00:37:19) wanted to take those four norms and (00:37:21) translate them into a form that would (00:37:23) make kids excited about adopting those (00:37:25) for themselves. And the way you do that (00:37:26) is not to lecture at kids, it's to get (00:37:28) them excited. So, the subtitle of the (00:37:29) book is your guide to fun and freedom in (00:37:32) a screen-filled world. And what we (00:37:34) realized is that it makes sense that (00:37:36) kids are clamoring for phones and social (00:37:39) media because right now their impression (00:37:41) is that you get more fun and freedom and (00:37:43) friendship was what we call call it in (00:37:45) the book on a screen. That's what the (00:37:48) social media companies have told us, you (00:37:50) know, but in reality as as we all know (00:37:52) and parents know cuz we have experience (00:37:53) lived experience, the best stuff happens (00:37:55) in the real world, real friendship and (00:37:58) real freedom and real fun. And so the (00:38:00) point of this book is to get kids (00:38:01) excited about living that kind of life. (00:38:05) And we actually discovered that there is (00:38:06) this growing youth rebellion of young (00:38:08) people who are standing up and saying, (00:38:10) "I don't want to I don't want to give my (00:38:12) life over to a technology company." Some (00:38:14) of them on our in our are in our target (00:38:16) readership, which is roughly 9 to 12. (00:38:18) It's applicable whether or not your kid (00:38:19) already has a smartphone or social (00:38:20) media, but we're trying to intervene (00:38:22) early. But we also know of a lot of (00:38:24) young people who are older than that, in (00:38:26) their teens, early 20s, who also are (00:38:27) trying to turn things around. And so we (00:38:29) tried to give lots of examples that (00:38:31) would inspire kids to join this (00:38:32) rebellion. And we have what we call the (00:38:34) rebels code which is very simple. It's (00:38:36) to use technology as a tool. Don't let (00:38:38) technology use you cuz we're not lites (00:38:40) but we're saying there's there's good (00:38:41) screens and bad screens. And then also (00:38:43) to fill your life with real friendship, (00:38:45) freedom, and fun. And what's been so (00:38:46) cool so far, I've given some talks with (00:38:50) early readers like at my daughter's (00:38:51) school. I just spoke to a hundred fourth (00:38:53) and fifth graders last week. And the (00:38:55) kids are so excited about becoming (00:38:57) rebels. They don't want their lives to (00:38:59) be taken over by tech companies. And I (00:39:02) have some thank you notes that just (00:39:03) really show this where kids say, "I used (00:39:05) to think I wanted to get Tik Tok and (00:39:07) Instagram, and now I've decided I don't (00:39:08) want to do that. I want to hold on to my (00:39:10) freedom for a little longer." Is what (00:39:11) one of them says. (00:39:12) >> Amazing. Well, I love this continued (00:39:15) partnership around like highlighting the (00:39:17) issues in a really clear way, painting a (00:39:20) vision for a kids. It's not about taking (00:39:21) away. It's actually about a different (00:39:22) pathway to the things you actually want. (00:39:25) And I'm always happy to show up and help (00:39:26) parents create the containers to make (00:39:28) that possible in a very practical way. (00:39:30) So this is just amazing. So I want to (00:39:32) end with a rapid rapid fire because we (00:39:34) don't have a lot of time. Okay. And (00:39:35) you're people with big thoughts. I'm (00:39:36) going to have to limit them to small (00:39:38) bite-sized thoughts. Okay. Jonathan, (00:39:41) >> if you had to draw one hard line, just (00:39:43) one rule that you would tell every (00:39:44) listener to really try to put in place, (00:39:46) but only one, where would you start? (00:39:48) >> No screens in the bedroom ever. If you (00:39:50) start that early, then you can enforce (00:39:53) it uh much more easily and that will cut (00:39:56) off the worst things that happen, which (00:39:58) is often a screen overnight talking with (00:40:00) strangers. (00:40:01) >> Great. Catherine, first change you'd (00:40:03) recommend to someone who says, "I'm on (00:40:04) my phone too much." (00:40:07) >> Get an alarm clock. I'm amazed by how (00:40:09) many adults tell me that's a (00:40:10) life-changing decision. I'm like, "Why (00:40:12) did I bother writing a book? I could (00:40:13) have just bought you an alarm clock." (00:40:14) >> Jonathan, you kind of answered this, but (00:40:15) I want you to crystallize it. Of all the (00:40:17) ideas you put into the world, what is (00:40:18) the hardest one that you find to live by (00:40:20) in your own life? (00:40:21) >> Oh, the hardest one that I find to live (00:40:24) by. Um, it would be to stop and smell (00:40:27) the flowers. It would be to be more (00:40:29) present. Um, and I justify my, you know, (00:40:32) I'm always thinking about work. I'm (00:40:33) always I justify saying, well, but I'm (00:40:35) on a mission to save childhood, so it's (00:40:37) okay that I'm a workaholic. Um, I've (00:40:41) been trying since I heard a a podcast (00:40:43) from Ezra Klein on Shabbat and I and I (00:40:45) read uh the book Hershel Hel. (00:40:48) >> Um, so I've been occasionally trying to (00:40:51) to honor Shabbat. And I really wish to (00:40:54) God I had done that when my kids were (00:40:55) little to just say this is a time I (00:40:57) don't work. We don't use our phones and (00:41:00) we do things. (00:41:01) >> It goes back to changing things from the (00:41:02) level of goals to systems. Containers, (00:41:04) that's what I think about containers. (00:41:05) Like if we have a container for (00:41:06) something, it's much more likely to (00:41:07) happen versus willpower. (00:41:08) >> That's right. Right. All right. What (00:41:10) about you? What's the hardest thing (00:41:11) you've talked about that's like what's (00:41:13) the thing that you've talked about that (00:41:14) if people saw your real life, they'd be (00:41:15) like, "Yeah, this is hard for me (00:41:17) personally." (00:41:17) >> I have trouble with email. You know, I'd (00:41:19) never have had a trouble with social (00:41:21) media, per se, or but it was the news (00:41:23) and email. And so, I got news apps off (00:41:24) my phone. I try to keep email off my (00:41:26) phone, but it's really hard not to (00:41:27) engage (00:41:28) >> around phones, technology, social media, (00:41:31) kids, parents. Jonathan, what's the area (00:41:33) that you have the most hope around right (00:41:34) now? (00:41:36) Well, the most hope is to get all of (00:41:38) this nonsense out of schools. Now, (00:41:39) that's going to include edtech as well. (00:41:41) It looks like putting a computer on kids (00:41:43) desk was a terrible idea because they (00:41:45) mostly just watch short videos, video (00:41:47) games, and porn. So, um, so I'm I'm (00:41:51) really excited that that this whole (00:41:53) movement is going to really help (00:41:55) education. (00:41:56) >> Yeah. (00:41:56) >> Now, then it's a little harder to change (00:41:58) things in the home because you don't (00:42:00) have that centralized control. But I (00:42:02) think as people are seeing how (00:42:03) incredibly successful the phone free (00:42:04) schools are, (00:42:06) >> um how we hear laughter in the hallways (00:42:08) again, students are library book take, (00:42:10) you know, taking out is going way way (00:42:11) up. (00:42:12) >> So I think that's going to give a lot of (00:42:13) parents uh it give us all evidence like (00:42:16) yeah, you know, if we take these things (00:42:18) away and we give them more experience (00:42:20) like they flower, (00:42:21) >> right? What about you? I am very excited (00:42:24) by how excited kids seem to be about (00:42:27) becoming a rebel and living the messages (00:42:29) of the amazing generation. It's so (00:42:32) heartening because if we can get kids to (00:42:33) decide for themselves that they don't (00:42:35) want social media accounts and that they (00:42:36) want to delay the age at which they get (00:42:38) full-on smartphones, we've won. We we've (00:42:41) reclaimed childhood. (00:42:42) >> All right, last rapid fire question. A (00:42:44) little bit adjacent, but I like to ask (00:42:46) everyone this. Years from now for you (00:42:48) when someone says, "What was your dad (00:42:50) like?" and someone and your kids say (00:42:51) some simple sentence. How do you hope (00:42:53) they finish that? (00:42:53) >> Well, I know that they appreciate that (00:42:55) I'm I'm calm and I and I listen to them. (00:43:00) Um I guess, you know, when they're (00:43:03) adults, I hope they they would (00:43:05) appreciate that that I was committed to (00:43:08) a vision and I worked hard for it over (00:43:11) many years. (00:43:12) >> Yeah. Great. Catherine, what about for (00:43:13) you? What do you hope you're like when (00:43:14) they're like, "Oh, my mom, she How are (00:43:16) they going to How do you hope they (00:43:17) finish this?" I hope my daughter feels (00:43:19) that I fully saw her for who she is. (00:43:23) >> Beautiful. (00:43:24) >> Yeah. And that she matters. (00:43:25) >> Thank you. This was incredible. Your new (00:43:27) book is incredible. The Amazing (00:43:28) Generation. Thank you for all the very (00:43:30) important, very impactful work you've (00:43:32) done. And um I I love working alongside (00:43:34) you and I love just looking up at the (00:43:36) work you've done and feeling so (00:43:38) motivated about what can be possible (00:43:40) from just a few minds. So, thank you. (00:43:43) >> Well, thank you to you, Becky. It's been (00:43:45) so helpful to have your consistent (00:43:47) guidance on how to be firm as a parent (00:43:49) because it's something that we both have (00:43:50) trouble with. (00:43:51) >> Love working with you guys. All right, (00:43:52) more soon. (00:43:58) This is a conversation that's leaving me (00:44:00) with so many thoughts. Thoughts that I (00:44:02) want to be honest with you. I haven't (00:44:03) solved, but they're just living in my (00:44:05) head. And I'm going to give myself a (00:44:07) little permission to kind of let them (00:44:09) simmer and figure out exactly what to do (00:44:12) with them. In the meantime, I'll share (00:44:14) them with you. Number one, I was just (00:44:16) struck by the fact that me and Jonathan (00:44:18) and Catherine, we all struggle with the (00:44:21) stuff in our home. If you have some (00:44:22) vision that the three of us have these (00:44:24) perfectly balanced screen worlds, we do (00:44:27) not. I think the best it gets as a (00:44:29) parent is struggling with this. And so, (00:44:31) if you're struggling, you're doing the (00:44:33) same thing I'm doing. (00:44:35) Number two, there is something to (00:44:38) saying, "What is the one guideline I (00:44:41) want to implement where I don't need my (00:44:43) kids' permission?" It's one small shift. (00:44:46) Is it how we start our day? Is it phones (00:44:48) in the room? Is it no phones when you're (00:44:50) sleeping? You know, the place that you (00:44:52) feel strongly about and feels manageable (00:44:56) as a first step. And so, I think that's (00:44:58) really powerful to think about. Number (00:45:01) three, I keep thinking about this idea (00:45:02) that I hear a lot about from parents. My (00:45:05) kids's going to have to learn how to (00:45:06) deal with their phone. They're going to (00:45:08) have to figure it out. And I really love (00:45:10) especially the reframe John gave where (00:45:12) if we think about that with drinking, a (00:45:14) lot of our kids will drink alcohol. But (00:45:17) that doesn't mean we say, "My kids's (00:45:18) going to have to figure it out. So, I'm (00:45:20) opening up the liquor cabinet at age (00:45:22) three or age eight or even at age 14." (00:45:26) There's something to development and (00:45:27) time and there's something to firm (00:45:29) boundaries where kids do have to figure (00:45:32) things out. But we also have to respect (00:45:34) their development, how these products (00:45:36) are designed and we have to embody our (00:45:41) appropriate parental authority in the (00:45:44) name of protecting our kids before (00:45:46) they're in a better developmental place (00:45:48) to even be able to make good decisions. (00:45:51) That's what I'll keep thinking about. (00:45:53) Let's end the way we always do. Place (00:45:55) your feet on the ground. (00:45:58) Place a hand on your heart. (00:46:00) Put any shame or guilt on a shelf. (00:46:04) And let's remind ourselves (00:46:07) even as we struggle on the outside, (00:46:11) we remain good inside. (00:46:15) I'll see you soon. (00:46:21) There is