Ben & Marc: Why Everything Is About to Get 10x Bigger (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) What virtually everybody finds, (00:00:02) including Elon Musk, is the real world (00:00:03) is just really, really big and really, (00:00:06) really messy. (00:00:06) >> The AI thing is so interesting, right? (00:00:08) Because from a technology perspective, (00:00:09) it feels like you can build products (00:00:10) pretty immediately that are going to (00:00:12) win. (00:00:12) >> Our entire way of doing everything as (00:00:14) humans, we think it's going to change. (00:00:16) We reinvented the computer and the new (00:00:18) computer is far better than the one that (00:00:21) we have been building on for the last 50 (00:00:23) or so years. The purpose of building the (00:00:25) dominant venture brand was precisely to (00:00:27) be able to have the companies be able to (00:00:28) borrow that at the most critical points (00:00:30) in their development so that the (00:00:31) companies can kind of use our force in (00:00:32) the world as a slingshot to basically (00:00:34) build their own force. (00:00:35) >> You cannot join the firm unless you (00:00:37) [music] sign the culture document. If (00:00:39) you had to pick a thing, what are you (00:00:40) compounding? (00:00:41) >> Reputation. [music] (00:00:45) >> We have a very special guest, Pachy (00:00:47) McCormack, who just wrote an excellent (00:00:49) profile of AS6 and Z. Py, thanks for (00:00:51) coming on the podcast. (00:00:52) >> Thanks for having me. Kathy, I want to (00:00:53) start by saying thank you for the (00:00:54) amazing piece. Like it's just like (00:00:56) incredible. Like absolutely incredible. (00:00:58) So we we we just like really appreciate (00:00:59) all the all the work that you put into (00:01:01) it because that that was a big one. (00:01:02) >> Thank you. I I mean I I appreciate being (00:01:04) able to tell this story. It's such a (00:01:06) cool one and and uh appreciate you know (00:01:08) getting to work with you guys on it. (00:01:10) >> Everybody welcome to the Ben and Mark (00:01:11) show first of 2026 and we're now getting (00:01:13) into how the media ecosystem has uh has (00:01:15) changed. We we talked about this great (00:01:17) great uh TAD friend profile in the New (00:01:19) Yorker in 2015 that I referenced in the (00:01:21) piece that that I wrote on A16Z uh this (00:01:24) past week saying that that kind of (00:01:26) kicked off or was the last kind of point (00:01:28) in an era where uh journalism cared (00:01:30) about free speech. I think Mark will do (00:01:32) a better job kind of summarizing what (00:01:33) happened over the past decade. Now we're (00:01:35) at the end of that point. And I was (00:01:37) asking, you know, to what extent Mark (00:01:39) thinks that he and kind of a few people (00:01:40) who stood up against this actually kind (00:01:42) of shifted back to this anarchctic or (00:01:45) liberated uh view of of the press or (00:01:49) relationship with the media that we have (00:01:50) now. (00:01:51) >> Yeah. And I was just saying I think you (00:01:52) could describe what's happening kind of (00:01:54) going forward, the information (00:01:55) environment being, you know, you could (00:01:56) use kind of three words. You could say (00:01:57) uncontrolled is maybe the neutral word. (00:01:59) You could say anarchctic is the negative (00:02:00) word. You could say liberated is the (00:02:02) positive word. um you know in terms of (00:02:04) freedom of speech, freedom of thought, (00:02:05) you know, and I say at least in the US, (00:02:07) I think generally on the internet and (00:02:08) then, you know, we can talk about what (00:02:10) what what what other countries are (00:02:11) doing, but at least in the US, you know, (00:02:12) we're clearly entering a much more free (00:02:13) speech world. Um, so I just start by (00:02:16) saying like I don't I don't think I (00:02:17) should claim any moral heroism at all (00:02:18) here at like at all because you know I (00:02:21) you know I mean I can I have my own (00:02:22) version of my own story going all the (00:02:23) way back to [laughter] (00:02:25) I turned one of my claims to I turned (00:02:26) down the opportunity um at the time in (00:02:28) 1993 to implement censorship in the web (00:02:30) browser um you know which would have (00:02:32) been a completely different uh and uh (00:02:34) and and you know very dystopian world. (00:02:35) So I I don't know maybe I get a little (00:02:36) bit of credit for that but you know I (00:02:38) think for the last decade like I was (00:02:40) kind of on the same ride as everybody (00:02:41) else and you know we you know we we you (00:02:42) know I've been on the on the I've been (00:02:43) on this you know Facebook board since (00:02:44) 2007 so I kind of went through the (00:02:46) entire kind of crazy roller coaster that (00:02:48) that company went through uh over the (00:02:49) last decade and then you know we've been (00:02:51) involved in in you know lots of these (00:02:52) companies um you know I was you know I (00:02:54) was an angel investor in Twitter um (00:02:55) angel investor in LinkedIn you know they (00:02:57) they both you know became kind of key (00:02:58) parts of the censorship machine um at (00:03:00) certain points and so I I don't want to (00:03:01) claim like huge moral heroism um I do (00:03:04) think a couple things. One is obviously (00:03:06) Elon's purchase of of Twitter, you know, (00:03:08) obviously was like a a gigantic turning (00:03:10) point. Um I also want to give just like (00:03:12) enormous credit to the Substack guys. Um (00:03:14) you know, and they were very proud (00:03:15) because we were the original investor (00:03:16) and we're the largest outside investor (00:03:18) in Substack and and you know, I think (00:03:19) they they did a really really great job (00:03:21) holding the line of freedom of speech (00:03:22) under and I would tell you under (00:03:24) enormous pressure um uh you know, (00:03:26) especially a very consistent and totally (00:03:29) principled stant on it. (00:03:31) >> Yeah, that's right. And they they got I (00:03:33) if you know I don't know if people (00:03:34) remember this or not but I mean they got (00:03:35) they got really lit up um you know by by (00:03:37) by a lot of the sort of you know anti- (00:03:39) speech forces for you know I mean the (00:03:41) whole litany of you know kind of (00:03:42) standard accusations um of of of just (00:03:45) being absolutely horrible. Um, and yeah, (00:03:46) they they they stuck to their principles (00:03:48) the whole time. And then they, you know, (00:03:50) you know, at least with Elon acts like (00:03:52) he's Elon. And so when when when he (00:03:53) wants to go to war with like, you know, (00:03:55) somebody who's like trying to get him to (00:03:56) censor more, like he does it in a very (00:03:57) kind of force, you know, public, visible (00:03:59) and forceful way. You know, the (00:04:00) Substack, you know, Substack's still, (00:04:01) you know, a younger company. Um, and so (00:04:03) they they don't have that level of kind (00:04:04) of just throw weight in the world yet. (00:04:06) Um, and so they they have the harder (00:04:07) version of the challenge and they they (00:04:08) had to fight, you know, a whole bunch of (00:04:09) fights, including, you know, fights that (00:04:10) aren't even public. um you know to to to (00:04:13) basically keep keep the service with (00:04:14) high integrity. (00:04:15) >> It's a I think a good place to kind of (00:04:17) talk about a bunch of the themes that (00:04:18) that we covered in the in the piece. One (00:04:21) of which is I mean the Substack (00:04:23) investment. I remember at the time I was (00:04:24) on Substack my career was starting (00:04:26) because of Substack and I still at the (00:04:28) time thought it was kind of a crazy (00:04:29) investment. Were you thinking about it (00:04:31) from the perspective of this is going to (00:04:33) be a great returner. This is something (00:04:34) that is good for the future. Is it a mix (00:04:37) of the two of those things? And then to (00:04:39) what extent have you allowed Substack to (00:04:41) fight that fight by being on their side (00:04:43) that they wouldn't have been able to do (00:04:44) if you weren't there? (00:04:46) >> Yeah. So we say we you know we never (00:04:47) make in you know we never make (00:04:48) investments for just purely kind of (00:04:49) social or political reasons like so the (00:04:51) you know the goal the goal obviously (00:04:52) always is as as as sort of fiduciaries (00:04:54) is to to generate returns and so you (00:04:56) know in the in the in in the main (00:04:57) business and so we you know we we we (00:04:59) always invest with the intention that (00:05:00) the company that we invest in you know (00:05:02) has the opportunity to become what we (00:05:03) call kind of a cornerstone franchise you (00:05:05) know in the industry and an important (00:05:06) force in the world. Um and you know I (00:05:08) and I we certainly believe that a (00:05:10) substack of the time and you know we we (00:05:11) believe that more than ever today. So so (00:05:12) I think that's true but but I also think (00:05:14) I you know I you know I think this is (00:05:16) kind of the magic in in a lot of what we (00:05:17) do you know at Silicon Valley which is I (00:05:19) I think the companies in many not in (00:05:21) every case but in many cases the (00:05:22) companies that become the best version (00:05:23) of themselves also become the most (00:05:24) successful businesses. Um and and I (00:05:26) think Substack is a great example of (00:05:28) that and and and Substack is actually a (00:05:30) very very very good example of that (00:05:31) because if Substack is making its writer (00:05:34) successful then it's making itself (00:05:35) successful right and so it's it's got (00:05:37) this just like extremely direct (00:05:38) alignment of interest between it success (00:05:40) and it and its writer success and then (00:05:41) as a consequence of that if its writers (00:05:43) are successful kind of by definition you (00:05:45) know those that you know those writers (00:05:46) reader you know readers are successful (00:05:47) they're getting what they want. Um and (00:05:49) so you know I would say you know there (00:05:51) were sort of a bunch of reasons we (00:05:52) invested in Substack. Um, you know, one (00:05:54) was just, you know, we we we fell in (00:05:56) love with, you know, with the guys. Um, (00:05:57) and, you know, you probably know the (00:05:58) guys, they're easy to fall in love with. (00:05:59) So, that that was the that was the easy (00:06:01) part. Um, and then, you know, look, I (00:06:03) had been around, you know, we we had (00:06:04) been around, you know, you know, the web (00:06:06) going all the way back. And then, you (00:06:07) know, particularly the, you know, the (00:06:08) kind of golden age of blogging, you (00:06:10) know, was kind of this kind of very, you (00:06:11) know, special time. Um and you know you (00:06:14) know and and and blogging really you (00:06:15) know I think you know maybe gets (00:06:16) underestimated because maybe there was (00:06:18) no single company that kind of got full (00:06:19) credit for it or something but you know (00:06:20) it really create the phenomenon of (00:06:22) blogging created an enormous amount of (00:06:24) intellectual content you know uh that (00:06:25) that that basically was not going to (00:06:27) exist otherwise. Um, and then it it (00:06:29) just, you know, blogging kind of just (00:06:30) always h it had a series of problems (00:06:32) because there was no single company (00:06:33) behind it. But, you know, one one of the (00:06:35) problems was bloggers just could it was (00:06:36) just very hard for bloggers to make (00:06:37) money, right? Um, and so, you know, the (00:06:39) substack guys basically said, well, (00:06:41) we're, you know, we're going to do that, (00:06:42) but we're, you know, we solve the (00:06:43) economic model. People are ready to pay (00:06:44) now for content. Um, and this makes (00:06:46) sense. And then, you know, there was (00:06:47) this chicken and egg thing right up (00:06:48) front, which was like, well, you know, (00:06:50) can you really see, you know, the (00:06:51) internet's a wash with content. People (00:06:52) aren't paying for almost any of it. like (00:06:54) are they really gonna you know you have (00:06:55) to kind of squint and kind of say okay (00:06:57) are people actually going to pay for any (00:06:58) of the stuff that they're getting today (00:06:59) and I think the thing that in that case (00:07:01) that we were that we had faith in was (00:07:03) basically this could be what we call a (00:07:04) supply driven market um which is right (00:07:07) if you provide the modernization (00:07:08) capability um then you're going to bring (00:07:10) into existence writers and content that (00:07:12) don't exist today um and that is going (00:07:15) to create new demand that's not visible (00:07:16) today and then that demand is going to (00:07:18) come back around and it's going to (00:07:19) incent (00:07:21) so so it was basically a bet that (00:07:22) there's like an entire generation of (00:07:24) of high quality content that doesn't (00:07:26) exist because the monetization mechanism (00:07:27) doesn't exist. And that's, you know, (00:07:28) that's certainly what what what Chris (00:07:30) and his and his partners believe. And (00:07:32) and I think that's that's absolutely (00:07:33) what's proven out. And so, yeah, I I (00:07:34) think it's it's like a great example of (00:07:36) founders that like really see a future (00:07:37) that doesn't exist yet. And it's it's (00:07:38) obvious to them. And unfortunately, in (00:07:40) that case, they were able to uh you (00:07:42) know, convince us like whenever we (00:07:44) really screw up, it's because there's a (00:07:45) founder who can see the future and they (00:07:47) come and they sit in our office, they (00:07:48) tell us what the future is, and we say, (00:07:49) "Yeah, I don't really buy it." [snorts] (00:07:52) Right? And then for the next 30 years, (00:07:54) you know, we have to read about the, you (00:07:55) know, glorious success of this thing as (00:07:56) that future actually develops. And like (00:07:58) that really sucks. Um, and I and I don't (00:07:59) like to talk about those, but I will (00:08:01) say, you know, Substack is Yeah, maybe (00:08:03) maybe they're just really good at sales, (00:08:04) but they they they fully convinced us. (00:08:05) And I'm I'm really thrilled that that (00:08:06) that's what's happening. they were kind (00:08:07) of ahead of the the kind of change from (00:08:11) old media to new media in that you know (00:08:13) as the brand moved from the New York (00:08:16) Times uh or the Wall Street Journal to (00:08:18) the actual writers themselves um (00:08:21) Substack was like a massive enabler for (00:08:23) that and you know they created this (00:08:26) thing which they call the nonfgeable (00:08:27) writer which is you know like how many (00:08:29) things in the newspaper could anybody (00:08:31) write and including AI by the way um and (00:08:35) you know how much is like truly like (00:08:37) interesting and valuable and they really (00:08:40) wanted all the truly interesting and (00:08:42) valuable things um to be able to build (00:08:44) their people to build their own brands (00:08:45) and their own businesses on Substack and (00:08:48) that that would that that also turned (00:08:50) out to be very true. (00:08:52) >> Yeah. And that was where you know Hish (00:08:53) in particular right turned out to be (00:08:54) really critical on their team you know (00:08:56) and and you know he and I had a (00:08:57) conversation early on this where you (00:08:58) know I was like well you know I don't (00:09:00) know are these people ever going to (00:09:01) leave their publications? are they ever (00:09:02) going to actually write content that's (00:09:03) you know like you know what's Upstack (00:09:05) was gearing up it's when in my view the (00:09:06) press kind of became this kind of (00:09:07) extreme and negative monoculture and so (00:09:10) I was like all right you got you know (00:09:11) because he's like you got all these (00:09:11) writers kind of trapped at these places (00:09:13) and I'm like well are they really (00:09:14) trapped like are they you know are they (00:09:15) in jail or have they built the jail like (00:09:16) what you know like are and if and if (00:09:18) they if they leave are they going to be (00:09:19) any different and he's like look if if (00:09:21) their only option to basically put food (00:09:23) on the table is to work for a (00:09:25) publication that basically you know (00:09:26) requires them to write a certain way (00:09:28) then they're going to write that way you (00:09:30) know because they need to pay the bills (00:09:31) but he that he he basically said, "I (00:09:32) guarantee you that there's a lot of (00:09:33) these folks, you know, where if if they (00:09:35) had an independent path, they would (00:09:36) take, you know, they would be thrilled (00:09:37) to be able to, you know, maybe break (00:09:39) themselves out of jail and they would be (00:09:41) thrilled to, you know, write about (00:09:42) things, you know, from different angles. (00:09:44) Um, and and have different takes on (00:09:45) things and, you know, you'd see this (00:09:46) basically this, you know, this (00:09:47) liberation phenomenon take place, uh, (00:09:49) where you you'd have actually many (00:09:50) different kinds of voices even coming (00:09:52) from people where you wouldn't expect it (00:09:53) based on the work that they did for, you (00:09:54) know, the New York Times or whoever. And (00:09:55) and of course, he was 100% right. You (00:09:58) can see a world where because it (00:10:00) attracts kind of all of the best writers (00:10:01) from all of these different places who (00:10:02) can build their own businesses, Substack (00:10:04) becomes 10 times larger than any of the (00:10:07) media organizations that it replaces. I (00:10:09) I love the the email that you send to to (00:10:11) Ali at at data bricks Ben where you talk (00:10:14) about the fact that you know the (00:10:15) business was underelling itself. He was (00:10:16) under selling the business and it was (00:10:18) going to be 10 times bigger than Oracle. (00:10:19) So $2 trillion. Yeah. (00:10:21) >> I want to understand like the mechanism (00:10:23) of that. Like do you think that happens (00:10:24) every generation that the new companies (00:10:26) are 10 times bigger? Why does that (00:10:28) happen? Is it just software? (00:10:31) >> Um yeah. So on that one it was actually (00:10:33) pretty simple because if you compared (00:10:36) the onremise software companies to the (00:10:38) cloud software companies. So compare uh (00:10:41) people soft to workday or compare uh (00:10:44) seal software to Salesforce. the cloud (00:10:48) version was just 10 times bigger (00:10:50) >> and Oracle was kind of the on-remise (00:10:52) version of data bricks you know kind of (00:10:54) you know rough rough analog you know (00:10:56) things are different um you know data is (00:10:58) bigger uh and so forth but if you look (00:11:02) at like who was going to be the data (00:11:06) kind of provider in the cloud the the (00:11:08) provider of technology to manage your (00:11:10) data in the cloud it was going to I mean (00:11:13) I I was very confident data bricks would (00:11:15) win that and so then if you say well (00:11:16) what's the market size of that. Um, and (00:11:19) and by the way, you know, when I said (00:11:21) that AI wasn't as big as it is, so I (00:11:24) think that uh that's helping my (00:11:26) prediction. Um, but you know, like it (00:11:29) was just clearly going to be 10 times (00:11:30) bigger and I was like, Ali, why are you (00:11:33) trying to convince this candidate that (00:11:35) you're going to be worth 10 billion? (00:11:37) Like that's what are you even talking (00:11:39) about? Uh, but you know, Ali is super (00:11:41) paranoid. [laughter] (00:11:43) Uh, so you know, God bless him. Uh so (00:11:46) you know those are kinds of things and (00:11:48) look you have to know your entrepreneur. (00:11:50) I mean I think this is uh you know one (00:11:53) of the things that I I think Mark does (00:11:55) very well is like you know that advice (00:11:59) isn't advice you give to every (00:12:01) entrepreneur. It's you know it was very (00:12:03) worked well specifically for him. And I (00:12:05) think that um (00:12:09) you know that's always the case like (00:12:11) it's a very psychological game running a (00:12:14) company and so you have to kind of tap (00:12:16) in to that person's particular (00:12:19) psychology to um kind of change the (00:12:22) trajectory of of what the company is (00:12:24) doing into the right direction. (00:12:26) >> Yeah. I'd also add, you know, Pat on the (00:12:27) Substack point, like I think Substack (00:12:29) could be like a thousand times the size (00:12:30) of the of the existing like content (00:12:31) industry, whatever you want to call it, (00:12:33) media news industry. Um, the collective, (00:12:35) you know, kind of value and and the (00:12:37) reason is because um, and you know, (00:12:38) you're an example of this yourself. Um, (00:12:40) so you know, my whole life, so I'm like, (00:12:41) you know, mid mid-50s and so like I I (00:12:44) grew up, you know, when I was a teen, (00:12:45) you know, kid and teenager, you know, (00:12:46) the the the moral panic of the era was (00:12:48) television. And it was just this like (00:12:49) endless litany of sort of social (00:12:50) criticism, you know, from kind of, you (00:12:52) know, fancy people basically saying, you (00:12:53) know, consumers are, you know, basically (00:12:55) normal people are idiots. They just want (00:12:56) to sit in front of the boob tube. They (00:12:58) just want to like be couch potatoes. You (00:12:59) know, the the line everybody used at the (00:13:01) time was Americans watch six hours of TV (00:13:03) a day and then you turned on TV and you (00:13:04) just saw this they they have this term, (00:13:06) the vast wasteland of, you know, game (00:13:08) shows and [ __ ] Yeah. (00:13:09) >> And it's just like this like very (00:13:11) dystopian kind of thing of just like (00:13:12) people are just morons. And then you (00:13:14) know the internet version of that is of (00:13:16) course you know these you know that kind (00:13:18) of moral panic has transferred straight (00:13:19) over onto the internet in the form of (00:13:20) you know of course you know short form (00:13:22) videos. Tik Tok um you know people just (00:13:24) want to watch you know these these these (00:13:25) stupid short form videos and it's just (00:13:27) >> cat playing the piano is the original (00:13:28) one. Right. (00:13:29) >> Yeah. Exactly. Cat cat videos. By by the (00:13:31) way I'm an afficionado of cat videos. I (00:13:33) do not look down on cat videos (00:13:34) whatsoever. AI cat videos are my current (00:13:36) favorite genre of any form of of (00:13:37) entertainment. So I will (00:13:39) >> the AIAT videos are very good. (00:13:41) [laughter] (00:13:41) >> I will I will Yes, Ben can confirm. I (00:13:43) send I send around a lot of AI cat (00:13:44) videos. However, there is an enormous (00:13:46) market for just like mass media just for (00:13:48) like whatever, you know, for whatever (00:13:49) game shows or sitcoms or, you know, soap (00:13:51) operas or there modern versions of those (00:13:52) and there's a giant, you know, mass mass (00:13:54) mass mass media uh market for uh for cat (00:13:57) videos. But um this goes back to these (00:13:59) this idea of supply driven market. There (00:14:00) there's also, I think, just like (00:14:01) enormous latent demand for actual smart (00:14:04) high quality stuff. um and and and (00:14:06) particularly in media and in and in (00:14:08) every kind of media and and I think the (00:14:10) issue the issue is not lack of demand. (00:14:12) And I think the issue is lack of supply. (00:14:14) Um because like this kind of goes back (00:14:16) to, you know, kind of consumer marketing (00:14:17) 101, which is consu people don't know (00:14:19) what they want until it's given to them, (00:14:20) right? You know, nobody ever asked for a (00:14:22) Macintosh. Nobody ever asked for an (00:14:23) iPhone. Like you know, these things had (00:14:24) to be designed and built and provided on (00:14:26) the supply side before the demand (00:14:27) materialized. And then the demand of (00:14:29) course turned out to be, you know, far (00:14:30) higher than anybody anybody expected. (00:14:32) And and I think that that same thing is (00:14:33) is exactly true of media. I think a (00:14:35) great early existence proof of this was (00:14:37) the success of long form podcasting. um (00:14:40) you know which is I remember my early (00:14:41) conversations with some of the early (00:14:42) long form podcasters and they're like (00:14:43) it's the strangest thing we've ever seen (00:14:45) cuz everybody tells us that the (00:14:47) consumers have short attention spans but (00:14:49) you know people are literally watching (00:14:50) three-hour podcast and we get the (00:14:52) analytics and people are watching all (00:14:53) the way to the end of the three-hour (00:14:54) podcast and so I view this very much as (00:14:56) like you know this is one of these (00:14:57) classic markets that's a barbell which (00:14:59) is yeah you have a certain amount of (00:15:00) whatever just you know whatever uh you (00:15:02) know main you know sort of mainstream (00:15:04) whatever uh you know filler whatever on (00:15:06) the one side um but you have this (00:15:07) massive sort of untapped market uh for (00:15:09) high quality content in basically every (00:15:11) domain. Um and they're just had you know (00:15:13) and again you know technological (00:15:15) transformation the the the existing (00:15:16) structure of the media company was a (00:15:18) structure that was designed for a world (00:15:19) of centralized media. Um you need you (00:15:21) need a new structure today and you know (00:15:23) of course that that you know that's why (00:15:24) we're so high on Substack. But yeah when (00:15:25) when we look at Substack it's the exact (00:15:27) same thing that you were just talking (00:15:28) about with data bricks which is like wow (00:15:29) this thing could be orders of magnitude (00:15:32) orders of magnitude multiples um larger (00:15:35) um you know than than anything we've (00:15:37) seen so far. And I and you know, (00:15:38) frankly, I think we're starting to see (00:15:39) that. (00:15:40) >> So implicit in in kind of the fund sizes (00:15:42) that you raise is some kind of view on (00:15:45) how big the future is going to be or how (00:15:47) much of the world technology is going to (00:15:48) eat over the next decade or so. What (00:15:51) does 15 billion say about kind of what (00:15:53) the world looks like in a decade and how (00:15:55) many substacks there are that are much (00:15:57) bigger than whoever they're replacing? (00:15:59) >> Well, I think that uh (00:16:02) we reinvented the computer. Um so and (00:16:06) the new computer is far better than the (00:16:10) one that we have been kind of building (00:16:12) on for the last uh 50 or so years. Um (00:16:16) well really longer than that but 50 in (00:16:18) earnest and (00:16:21) you know so there is not I mean we talk (00:16:23) about this all the time in the firm (00:16:25) there's not a problem that we can think (00:16:26) of that you can't that you won't be able (00:16:30) to solve with AI. So like almost every (00:16:32) problem in the world and you (00:16:34) you know, from uh cancer to transport (00:16:38) transportation to massive fraud in the (00:16:40) US. You just name a problem in the (00:16:42) headlines and we're like, "Oh yeah, we (00:16:45) can solve that." And so, um, it's kind (00:16:49) of the reinvention of everything. So, (00:16:51) like all our our entire way of doing (00:16:53) everything as humans, uh, we think it's (00:16:56) going to change. And so, (00:16:59) you know, I would view it as 15 billion (00:17:01) to start for us because um there's so (00:17:05) much to do and there's so many things (00:17:07) that are going to get built and you (00:17:08) know, like some of it is just timing (00:17:09) with the entrepreneurs, but we think the (00:17:11) number of entrepreneurs is going to (00:17:13) multiply as well. Um because the the e (00:17:16) kind of the the ease of going from an (00:17:19) idea to a really fantastic solution um (00:17:24) and a fantastic product is just going to (00:17:27) be so much simpler because you know one (00:17:29) of the things that AI is best at of (00:17:30) course is um kind of building stuff uh (00:17:34) and uh and so yeah it's just a a very (00:17:37) unique time in kind of the history of (00:17:40) the world. (00:17:41) >> Yeah. Yeah. the the out body experience (00:17:42) I have with AI on a regular basis now is (00:17:44) you know it's just like okay I think (00:17:45) about the way Ben does and then I'm like (00:17:46) all right how might you apply AI to (00:17:47) solve yeah for example the fraud scandal (00:17:49) you know the kind of fraud that we're (00:17:50) seeing play out you know any anything (00:17:53) like that and and it's like oh okay I (00:17:55) need to think and think about how to how (00:17:56) to have AI solve this and I'm like well (00:17:57) wait a minute why don't I ask the AI (00:18:00) [laughter] (00:18:01) right and then I go in there and I'm (00:18:02) like you know da da da how should I do (00:18:04) this and it's like oh well here it's (00:18:05) obvious how you would do it and here's (00:18:06) you know the 18 steps that you would (00:18:08) take um and then I tell it well you know (00:18:10) okay like you know interview me, you (00:18:11) know, interview me on all the open (00:18:13) questions in the topic, you know, to get (00:18:14) my thoughts on them. And then and then (00:18:15) it starts, you know, it starts (00:18:16) interrogating me, right? And then I'm (00:18:17) like, okay, now give me your point, you (00:18:19) know, and so any it's just like, you (00:18:20) know, as you know, like if you had tried (00:18:22) to do that with a normal computer in the (00:18:23) old days, it' just like stare you, (00:18:24) [laughter] right? Like, so like this is (00:18:28) really, really, really different. Um, (00:18:30) and then, you know, Py, I think the (00:18:31) venture lens I would put on this is, um, (00:18:33) you know, in terms of the mechanics of (00:18:34) venture capital, um, you know, the sort (00:18:36) of classic, you know, venture capital (00:18:38) triangle is is team, product, and (00:18:39) market. Um and and you're always trying (00:18:40) to kind of evaluate all three of those (00:18:42) and people have always had, you know, (00:18:43) different theories over the years of (00:18:44) which is more important than the others (00:18:45) and how they how they interact. But the (00:18:48) the the the the thing that basically (00:18:50) every investor, public market investors, (00:18:52) private investors, the thing that we're (00:18:53) all trained to do is basically market (00:18:55) sizing like we're, you know, you know, (00:18:57) for, you know, we're trained to do (00:18:58) technology analysis. We're trained to do (00:18:59) like, you know, background checks on (00:19:00) people. And then we're trained to do (00:19:01) market sizing. Like, you know, okay, how (00:19:03) big is this market? because you know the (00:19:05) the classic adage right is if you if you (00:19:07) put a huge amount of effort into going (00:19:08) after a small market you still get a (00:19:09) small outcome. Um but there's a (00:19:11) presumption in there which is that you (00:19:13) you you can actually predict market (00:19:15) sizes on these things and and the (00:19:17) problem with that again is this sort of (00:19:18) this presumption that you can predict (00:19:20) market sizes based on the dynamics that (00:19:21) exist in the market today. Um, but if (00:19:24) there's a fundamental change on the (00:19:25) supply side, if there's if there's a (00:19:27) fundamental breakthrough, a fundamental (00:19:28) capability that doesn't exist yet, you (00:19:30) you're not going to be able to (00:19:32) accurately model the market size because (00:19:33) you can't you can't see it yet. Like you (00:19:35) you you've changed one of the major (00:19:36) variables and you you you can't do that. (00:19:38) And you know, and then you could call (00:19:39) that the leap of faith or whatever, but (00:19:40) it's like, okay, if you if you make the (00:19:42) change in the supply side, then all of a (00:19:43) sudden the market gets 10 or 100 or (00:19:44) thousand times larger. like you you can (00:19:47) almost never validate that with math at (00:19:49) the time of the investment, but that's (00:19:50) the thing that makes the outperformers, (00:19:52) you know, really go. Um, and and I just (00:19:55) I just think like as as Ben and I kind (00:19:56) of go through our careers, we just see (00:19:58) more and more examples where the mistake (00:19:59) that we or others make is, oh, this must (00:20:01) be, you know, the market for Uber and (00:20:03) Lift must be the market for taxi cabs, (00:20:05) right? Um, or, you know, the market (00:20:06) Yeah. or or the market for cloud (00:20:08) software must be the same as the market (00:20:09) for for for on-prem software, right? um (00:20:12) uh or or the market (00:20:13) >> the market for GPUs must be the market (00:20:15) for people who like to play games. (00:20:17) >> Yes, exactly. And we just keep seeing (00:20:19) example after example after example (00:20:21) where the uh significant enough (00:20:23) technology change, product change on the (00:20:24) supply side unlocks much larger markets (00:20:26) and I and I think that's going to be I I (00:20:28) mean think frankly that's going to be (00:20:29) like the single like dominant trend in (00:20:31) investing for like the next 30 years. I (00:20:32) think that's just going to like (00:20:33) telescope way out. (00:20:34) >> The AI thing is is so interesting, (00:20:36) right? cuz from a technology (00:20:37) perspective, it feels like you can build (00:20:39) products pretty immediately that are (00:20:40) going to win. And then A16Z starts to (00:20:43) make a lot more sense in that context (00:20:44) where it's like all of these other (00:20:45) things. It's how do you do go to market? (00:20:47) How do you do policy? Like how do you (00:20:49) set the conditions for the actual best (00:20:50) technology to win as quickly as (00:20:53) possible? Like how do you think about (00:20:54) all the different things that you do (00:20:55) there? And is that the right way to (00:20:56) think about it that like the best (00:20:57) technology should win and the platform (00:20:59) is there to make sure that that happens? (00:21:02) You know, the way we always thought (00:21:03) about the firm was um what can a partner (00:21:08) do for an entrepreneur that will uh not (00:21:12) only help them ensure their success but (00:21:14) help them kind of build the company they (00:21:16) want to build and the way they want to (00:21:18) build it with the people they want to (00:21:19) build it with um and the culture that (00:21:22) they're proud of. And to do that there (00:21:25) there there's many many pieces and a lot (00:21:27) of it um you know some of it is just (00:21:29) like very fundamental like can you do (00:21:32) your business in the United States of (00:21:34) America? Can you do it in the world? And (00:21:35) so that that that's where the the policy (00:21:37) comes in. It's just like a very basic (00:21:39) question and looks have a huge interest (00:21:42) in technology these days. So like it's a (00:21:44) it's a necessary one. Um, a lot of the (00:21:48) other things come down to, you know, how (00:21:51) do you go from being an inventor to (00:21:52) being a competent CEO and that really uh (00:21:57) is a confidence game for for lack of a (00:22:00) better word. And that you know, it's (00:22:01) very difficult to run an organization (00:22:03) when you don't know what you're doing. (00:22:05) Uh, which nobody does when they're an (00:22:07) inventor. and you get tremendous amount (00:22:09) of advice and advice that's often (00:22:12) extremely bad. Uh and almost the (00:22:15) opposite of what you should be doing. Uh (00:22:17) and there are very few like the people (00:22:19) who have actually built things don't (00:22:21) have time to talk to you. They're often (00:22:23) away building things. So you get these (00:22:25) like advisors and you know Silicon (00:22:27) Valley people uh who tell you how to run (00:22:30) your company, who to hire, this and that (00:22:32) and the other. Um, and then those things (00:22:34) turn out to be wrong and you get into (00:22:35) this confidence spiral. And so we, you (00:22:38) know, the whole firm is built to put you (00:22:40) in a kind of a virtuous confidence cycle (00:22:42) as opposed to a vicious confidence (00:22:43) cycle. And that means like, oh, I need (00:22:47) to call somebody who's hard to get to, (00:22:49) like an important CEO or like, you know, (00:22:52) I've got to recruit a top-end engineer (00:22:55) or I have to um figure out how to market (00:22:58) my product or I have to get to somebody (00:23:00) uh important in the government. the if I (00:23:03) can do that, my confidence builds. If I (00:23:06) can't do that, my confidence sinks. And (00:23:08) so then, you know, once you're (00:23:10) confident, you can make decisions (00:23:11) faster. You can uh, you know, build the (00:23:14) company more effectively. You can go for (00:23:16) what you actually want. You can have (00:23:18) confidence that, okay, what I want is (00:23:20) the right thing as opposed to what (00:23:21) somebody's whispering in my ear, you (00:23:23) know, who is uh whatever a CEO coach or (00:23:26) a VC or this or that or the other. And (00:23:28) so the whole firm is designed to uh kind (00:23:31) of enable that inventor to become a CEO (00:23:35) and and and run their own company and (00:23:37) put their mark not just you know locally (00:23:41) but in the world uh by being able to (00:23:44) kind of network to anyone. And so that's (00:23:46) that's a lot of what we're about. (00:23:50) >> Yeah. And I just add the the sort of (00:23:51) macro, you know, kind of outside inland (00:23:52) on that is it's just like, you know, we (00:23:55) we we we get to work with these, you (00:23:57) know, super geniuses, but they're (00:23:58) specifically they are super geniuses at (00:23:59) building products, building (00:24:00) technologies. Um, you know, to be a (00:24:02) super genius at building technologies. (00:24:04) Generally, it requires you to have been (00:24:05) sitting in a lab, you know, in front of (00:24:06) a screen for, you know, 10 or 20 years. (00:24:08) Um, you know, they they just they they (00:24:10) have they, you know, these folks are (00:24:11) fully capable of understanding (00:24:12) everything about the world at large. (00:24:14) They just haven't they just haven't done (00:24:15) it yet. they just they they just haven't (00:24:16) been out then they haven't met all the (00:24:18) people and they haven't dealt with all (00:24:19) the issues in the real world and and and (00:24:21) so that that leads to this kind of (00:24:22) recurring you know kind of I would say (00:24:24) misimpression sometimes that that the (00:24:25) people have just like well if you just (00:24:26) if you build the right product you know (00:24:28) if you build the breakthrough whatever (00:24:29) XYZ widget like it's just the world is (00:24:31) obviously going to adopt it everybody's (00:24:33) going to use it it's it's just obviously (00:24:34) going to you know kind of sweep things (00:24:35) and you know if and basically if if it (00:24:37) doesn't the answer is the product's not (00:24:39) good enough and you know there's there's (00:24:40) a little bit of truth to that like (00:24:41) obviously the better the more (00:24:42) breakthrough the product you know the (00:24:43) more there will just be organic traction (00:24:45) what virtually everybody finds, you (00:24:47) know, up up to including Elon Musk, (00:24:49) right? What what what everybody finds is (00:24:50) the real world is just like really (00:24:52) really big and really really messy, (00:24:55) right? Um and there are, you know, 8 (00:24:57) billion people out there with like (00:24:58) opinions um that are not necessarily, (00:25:00) you know, your opinions. Um, and you (00:25:02) know, many of them have a real vote as (00:25:04) to what is going to happen with your (00:25:05) product and with your company, you know, (00:25:07) including whether anybody buys, you (00:25:08) know, your thing or, you know, all of (00:25:10) the X factors that kick in, you know, (00:25:12) all the different ways that, you know, (00:25:13) people are going to come and try to, you (00:25:14) know, [ __ ] what you're doing. Um, or (00:25:16) or, you know, or maybe even worse than (00:25:17) that, you know, just ignore you, right? (00:25:20) Um, and so there is this there is this (00:25:23) just there is this really big world out (00:25:24) there. It's really complicated. It's (00:25:25) really messy. It's not necessarily in (00:25:27) favor of new ideas. uh in many cases it (00:25:29) really really doesn't like them and (00:25:30) wants to reject them. Um and there there (00:25:32) are there's real art and science you (00:25:34) know to yeah to to Ben's point to (00:25:36) building the company around the product (00:25:37) and the founder uh to be able to take (00:25:39) the breakthrough and be able to take it (00:25:40) successfully into the world. Um, and and (00:25:42) as far as we can tell, like as far as I (00:25:44) can tell, like that that process is (00:25:46) getting, you know, hairier and more (00:25:48) complicated over time, right? Uh, it's (00:25:50) not getting easier. It's it seems like (00:25:51) it's actually getting significantly (00:25:52) harder. Um, and so, yeah, that's that's (00:25:54) a big part of what the what the firm is (00:25:56) built to do is really help founders, you (00:25:57) know, work through that. (00:25:58) >> And one of the things that that that (00:25:59) Mark said in the past, which is really (00:26:01) true, is like, look, as a as an (00:26:03) inventor, you're looking for power, like (00:26:04) a power boost. Um, so how do I go from (00:26:08) little old me with my invention to like (00:26:11) I'm the important company in the space (00:26:13) in the world. I can build momentum. I (00:26:14) can get the best engineers. I can get (00:26:16) the, you know, customers faster. And (00:26:18) that that turns into a snowball and I'm (00:26:20) rolling downhill. And so the whole firm (00:26:22) is designed as like a very powerful (00:26:25) entity that you can just tap into and (00:26:28) you know take our brand, take our (00:26:31) connections, take our expertise and (00:26:33) become extremely powerful very fast. (00:26:36) >> Yeah. And by the way, this this this you (00:26:38) know this this is the solution of the (00:26:39) puzzle that people have had about us for (00:26:40) a long time which is wow. It seems like (00:26:42) those guys are like you know awfully (00:26:43) promotional. You know they're they're (00:26:44) you know you know they do all this (00:26:46) marketing stuff. They you know they're (00:26:47) doing all this politics stuff. You know (00:26:48) they they must be doing this for ego (00:26:49) reasons. They must be really full (00:26:51) themselves. You know, this must be (00:26:52) about, you know, (00:26:52) >> talk so much [ __ ] (00:26:53) >> They talk so much [ __ ] like the whole (00:26:55) thing. And at least, you know, and maybe (00:26:56) maybe maybe it's possible possible we (00:26:58) talk too much. I'll judge [laughter] (00:27:00) that (00:27:01) >> from time to time maybe. However, (00:27:05) however, from the beginning, the goal (00:27:07) was to build the do the the purpose of (00:27:09) building the dominant venture brand was (00:27:11) precisely to be able to have the (00:27:12) companies be able to borrow that at at (00:27:14) the most critical points in their (00:27:15) development so that the companies could (00:27:16) could can kind of use use our force in (00:27:19) the world as a slingshot to basically (00:27:20) build their own force. Um, and and I (00:27:22) think that's worked really well and (00:27:23) that's why we don't, you know, shrink (00:27:24) back in a lot of these things. (00:27:25) >> Yeah, I I want to like just squeeze (00:27:27) something in and then get right back on (00:27:28) this conversation. Talking too much [ __ ] (00:27:30) is so interesting, but I really love I (00:27:32) think the thing that impressed me the (00:27:33) most when I started working with the (00:27:35) crypto team was seeing never take the (00:27:37) negative in person and like never talk (00:27:39) [ __ ] on a technology, never talk [ __ ] on (00:27:41) a founder, never talk [ __ ] on a company. (00:27:43) Like how do you even train for that? Cuz (00:27:45) that really really impressed me. (00:27:46) >> Well, we train for that. (00:27:48) >> Yeah, we train for that. So uh we have a (00:27:53) culture um that is written culture that (00:27:57) you cannot join the firm unless you sign (00:28:01) uh a document uh the culture document (00:28:03) and says you will adhere to this culture (00:28:05) and uh then you must sit through one (00:28:08) hour with me uh understanding the (00:28:11) culture and fundamentally on that you (00:28:14) know our whole point is if you want to (00:28:18) do something larger than yourselves and (00:28:20) make the world a better place, we are (00:28:21) 100% for it and we do not care. (00:28:24) [laughter] (00:28:25) Uh, you know, like if in the moment we (00:28:28) think you're making a mistake or like (00:28:29) the idea isn't good enough. It doesn't (00:28:31) matter if we invest in you or don't (00:28:32) invest in you. Um, we're for that. We (00:28:35) are dream builders. We're not dream (00:28:36) killers. We're not here to be like the (00:28:40) analytical smarty pants who makes (00:28:43) ourselves look smart by making somebody (00:28:45) else look stupid. And that's just that's (00:28:48) fundamental to how we think about the (00:28:50) world. Um so like anybody who's trying (00:28:54) to push the world forward and make it (00:28:56) better like whether we agree with their (00:28:58) method or not like we're for it. And so (00:29:02) uh you we just ask you to sign up to (00:29:05) that idea before you ever join. (00:29:07) >> Katherine said that that uh you know we (00:29:10) believe in the future and bet the firm (00:29:11) that way was should actually be the (00:29:12) number one uh kind of value in the in (00:29:14) the culture. By the way, that that that (00:29:16) was Mark's um you know, I I did the (00:29:18) wording, so I give myself a little (00:29:20) credit, but that was Mark's idea. (00:29:23) >> Do you think that should be number do (00:29:24) you think that is number one in in (00:29:26) practice? Do you think first class (00:29:27) business in a first class way is like if (00:29:29) you were to rewrite the doc today, what (00:29:31) is the most important thing in the in (00:29:32) the firm? (00:29:34) >> Well, look, I mean the culture document (00:29:36) is seven things that um you know, and (00:29:39) the culture is more than that. every (00:29:41) culture is more than seven seven ideas (00:29:43) and kind of seven sets of behaviors, (00:29:46) but those are the ones that all seven of (00:29:49) them that we really expect everybody to (00:29:51) live to. Um, so I I I don't know if I (00:29:54) rank them in that sense because they all (00:29:56) go together. They're part of a single (00:29:58) thing. So, um, you know, we believe in (00:30:02) the future means that we believe in the (00:30:04) people who build the future, which means (00:30:06) we're not going to criticize them, which (00:30:08) means, you know, we're not going to (00:30:11) we're not going to be on the attack side (00:30:12) of that. We're never going to attack the (00:30:13) future. We're going to try and make, you (00:30:15) know, there are going to be problems (00:30:16) with how we build the future, but we're (00:30:18) going to try and make it the best future (00:30:19) we can. We're not going to try and live (00:30:21) in the past. Uh, and so that you can't (00:30:25) do that if you're attacking (00:30:26) entrepreneurs all the time. You can't do (00:30:28) that if you show up, you know, an hour (00:30:32) late to meet with somebody who's trying (00:30:33) to build a company. You can't do those (00:30:35) kinds of things. And so every part of (00:30:37) the culture, I think, is in support of (00:30:41) we want to build a better future. Like (00:30:43) that is that's why we're here. (00:30:46) >> Haber in his piece firm kind of greater (00:30:49) than fund talks about, you know, a firm (00:30:50) as something that tries to build a (00:30:52) compounding competitive advantage and he (00:30:53) points to one thing for Apollo, one (00:30:55) thing for Goldman. If you had to pick a (00:30:57) thing, what are you compounding? Like (00:30:59) what is the competitive advantage that (00:31:00) you're that you're building over time? (00:31:01) Do you think here? (00:31:03) >> Reputation. (00:31:06) >> We Mark and I talked about that from the (00:31:08) day we started the firm. And and by by (00:31:10) the way, there were times when it was (00:31:12) like, well, we're investing an awful lot (00:31:14) in reputation. Um, [laughter] and you (00:31:16) know, it's take a while. Uh, but it is (00:31:19) that's what we compete on. Like when we (00:31:21) when we talk to an entrepreneur um and (00:31:24) they're comparing us to another firm, we (00:31:26) say find an entrepreneur that's taken (00:31:29) investment from both firms. See what (00:31:31) they say. Like that's our answer to (00:31:32) everything. Uh we we build reputation. (00:31:36) Every relationship matters. Everybody (00:31:38) who we touch, we try and touch as many (00:31:40) people as we can and we try and um (00:31:42) represent in the very very best way (00:31:44) possible to build reputation over time. (00:31:46) And that compounds and compounds and (00:31:48) compounds across uh entrepreneurs, (00:31:51) across industries, across sectors, (00:31:53) across, you know, everybody from you (00:31:55) know people in the government to uh you (00:31:58) know people in uh in companies that that (00:32:01) we don't invest in um anybody who is (00:32:05) anywhere in the world of technology. We (00:32:07) want them to know us and we want them to (00:32:09) uh think of us as the best uh firm to do (00:32:12) business with. (00:32:14) >> Yeah. And then that and then that that (00:32:15) transfers of course that transfers from (00:32:17) us that transfers to the portfolio (00:32:18) companies right so which is the goal of (00:32:20) it which is that then as a consequence (00:32:22) when a when a company takes investment (00:32:23) from us now they they're basically able (00:32:25) to use our reputation to get themselves (00:32:27) through the through those those those (00:32:28) you know kind of key growth phases with (00:32:30) you know with with potential customers (00:32:31) and with recruits and with downstream (00:32:33) investors and with you know regulators (00:32:34) and with you know all all these (00:32:36) different you know forces in the (00:32:37) external society. Um, so the the (00:32:40) reputation pays off not just for us, but (00:32:42) it pays off in the form of uh what our (00:32:44) what our portfolio companies are able to (00:32:45) do as a result. (00:32:46) >> So having done this for 16 17 years, (00:32:48) like are there things about building and (00:32:50) transferring reputation that you've (00:32:51) learned that are nonobvious? Cuz to me, (00:32:53) like it would almost seem that it's a (00:32:54) battery and if you give it to one (00:32:55) company that messes it up, then the (00:32:57) whole thing kind of falls apart, but (00:32:59) actually it maybe it's like love to be (00:33:00) like super cheap, like it just grows the (00:33:02) more you give it. Are there other things (00:33:04) like that that that you've learned? (00:33:06) Well, look, I I I do think that that's a (00:33:09) correct insight in that, you know, one (00:33:13) mistake is much more powerful than, (00:33:16) you know, one good deed. Um, so, you (00:33:20) know, one person being obnoxious uh (00:33:24) who's in the firm or lying to an (00:33:26) entrepreneur or doing something like (00:33:27) that is causes much more damage than you (00:33:30) can do by doing that correctly. Uh, you (00:33:33) know, five or 10 times. Um, which is why (00:33:36) you have to be so v vigilant about it. (00:33:38) Like you you you can't you cannot (00:33:40) tolerate that kind of behavior. [gasps] (00:33:43) Um, (00:33:45) but I I I think that the the thing the (00:33:48) biggest thing that I've learned is it (00:33:50) takes a long time to build a reputation. (00:33:53) Uh, and but once you do it's it's the (00:33:57) most powerful thing. It really does (00:33:58) compound. Um, and just to give you an (00:34:01) example, look, when Mark and I raised (00:34:03) fund one, it was a $300 million fund. (00:34:06) Um, I think it took about six months to (00:34:10) raise. Uh, we had (00:34:15) a lot of meetings. I I can't count how (00:34:17) many meetings. Um, some people did not (00:34:19) treat us very well, as uh Trump might (00:34:21) say. They didn't treat me well at all. (00:34:24) [laughter] (00:34:25) Uh, very badly. Um, and you know, this (00:34:29) raise, which was $15 billion, when we (00:34:31) actually raised the fund, I think Mark (00:34:34) did one AMA and I did one AMA [laughter] (00:34:37) and I don't I don't know that I took (00:34:38) another meeting on this fund raise. Uh, (00:34:41) and it was done on the on the (00:34:43) reputation. And so, um, that's a that's (00:34:48) a heck of a change, you know, and look, (00:34:50) a lot of not that we don't we talk to (00:34:52) our investors all the time. I mean, I've (00:34:54) been all around the world uh building (00:34:56) relationships and so forth, but when we (00:34:58) came to ask for money, uh it was raised (00:35:01) entirely on a reputation. (00:35:03) >> I think PY, I think the um the external (00:35:05) environment has changed, you know, (00:35:06) enormously. Um and so you know we've (00:35:08) we've lived this you know as you have (00:35:10) and many others we you know this (00:35:12) incredible transformation where tech (00:35:13) both is like much much much larger and (00:35:15) more central now than it was in 2009 (00:35:17) when we started but also you know the (00:35:18) the level of let's just say engagement (00:35:21) on the on the part of the world tech is (00:35:23) you know the level of intensity on (00:35:25) everything from you know you know (00:35:26) attacks you know criticism you know by (00:35:28) the way you know completely justifiable (00:35:30) questions you know impact on society you (00:35:32) know the the the intensity level is you (00:35:34) know I don't know it's like a I don't (00:35:35) know it's like a thousandx of what it 16 (00:35:37) years ago. And so I I think you I think (00:35:39) to your question, I think we've we've (00:35:40) really tried to kind of rise to that on (00:35:42) both sides. Like we're really trying to (00:35:43) help these, you know, these companies (00:35:44) get to levels of scale that nobody ever (00:35:46) thought was possible before, but at the (00:35:48) same time, we're trying to help them (00:35:49) deal with pressures that previous (00:35:50) generations of founders, you know, (00:35:51) generally didn't have to deal with. (00:35:52) >> Yeah. (00:35:53) >> You seem like you uniquely maybe with (00:35:55) anybody that I know have fun taking, you (00:35:58) know, like engaging in these (00:35:59) conversations and I wrote about it a (00:36:00) little bit in the piece, but like kind (00:36:01) of stepping outside the situation and (00:36:03) viewing it. I know like what goes on in (00:36:04) your head in these situations like are (00:36:06) you having as much fun as it looks like? (00:36:08) Does it take a toll every kind of like (00:36:09) taking the arrows? What does it feel (00:36:11) like in these? (00:36:13) >> Yeah, Ben. Yeah. Why don't you Yeah, Ben (00:36:15) will give the rational response. I'll (00:36:17) [laughter] (00:36:17) >> Yeah, (00:36:19) I would say it's um I mean it gets (00:36:23) emotional from time to time, right? (00:36:24) because (00:36:26) you you know what goes into building (00:36:27) these things. Um and you know the (00:36:31) intentions of the people building them (00:36:32) and you know like the kind of impact (00:36:34) they have on the world and then to just (00:36:36) get like you know and a lot of them are (00:36:40) the attacks tend to be in the form of (00:36:42) character assassinations and so forth (00:36:43) and now everybody thinks Mark's Jewish (00:36:46) um [laughter] (00:36:48) you know just so they can attack him (00:36:50) more. It turns out people love to attack (00:36:52) Jewish people. Um, so I I welcome into (00:36:55) him into that. Uh, (00:36:57) >> my new name my new name my new name Py (00:36:58) is in certain political circles Andy uh (00:37:00) is as uh is um Andy Horowitz because (00:37:03) people think that people think and and (00:37:06) as French as the internet people think (00:37:07) Andre Horowitz is a Jewish person. (00:37:09) >> Yeah. (00:37:09) >> Um and so [clears throat] I introduced (00:37:11) myself as (00:37:12) >> Yes. (00:37:12) >> I didn't have that in my Twitter bio. I (00:37:14) did have my Twitter bio. My real name is (00:37:15) Andy is Andy Horowitz but and I am (00:37:17) Jewish but I I took it down. (00:37:19) >> Yeah. But I I I would say mostly it's (00:37:22) just like it's an amazing um (00:37:27) it's just like an amazing thing, an (00:37:28) amazing privilege uh to kind of be in (00:37:33) the center of it all. U and you know, (00:37:36) look, and then the responsibility that (00:37:38) goes with it that you you have to kind (00:37:40) of try and help drive the world to the (00:37:42) right answer. Uh, (00:37:45) but like it's (00:37:48) I don't know if fun is the right word, (00:37:50) but like it's special. It's like we've (00:37:53) gotten to a very special position and I (00:37:55) think you know both of us try and take (00:37:58) it as seriously as we can and you look (00:38:00) things happen and we have very very long (00:38:03) discussions about how we should react to (00:38:07) certain things um how we should not (00:38:09) react to certain things um what we can (00:38:11) take a position on what we shouldn't (00:38:12) take a position on (00:38:15) and you know just to have just to be you (00:38:17) know at this stage of life to be able to (00:38:19) be talking about that as opposed to um (00:38:22) the things that we had to talk about (00:38:23) when we were building Netscape or or (00:38:25) Opsswware. Like it's it's amazing. Uh (00:38:28) and uh you know, I definitely wouldn't (00:38:31) trade it. Um and and look, we're (00:38:34) we've been through we've been criticized (00:38:36) so much at this point that like it (00:38:38) really it bothers interestingly, which I (00:38:41) never thought I'd see, is it kind of (00:38:42) bothers people inside the firm much more (00:38:44) than it bothers Mark or me. (00:38:46) >> Sure. (00:38:47) >> And I am just for the record studying (00:38:48) for my bar mitzvah. (00:38:50) >> Yeah. [laughter] (00:38:51) Yeah, the hav Torah. You you need to (00:38:53) learn your your hop to tropes. (00:38:55) >> Yeah. [snorts] (00:38:57) >> How do you avoid at this point becoming (00:38:59) a big company? Like this is becoming a (00:39:01) big organization. How do you avoid being (00:39:03) a big company? Google wanted to avoid (00:39:05) that like everyone wants to avoid that. (00:39:06) How do you actually do that? (00:39:09) >> Yeah. So I think a lot of that is (00:39:11) organizational design. And I mean it. (00:39:15) So if you look at the companies that (00:39:18) didn't feel like big companies for a (00:39:20) long time, they they had very very very (00:39:21) thoughtful designs of the organization. (00:39:23) And if you look at the firm um you know (00:39:27) the crypto group or the infra group or (00:39:29) the um you know the apps group or the (00:39:32) American Dynamism group, they they all (00:39:34) feel like small companies and they're (00:39:37) they're small companies with a kind of (00:39:39) very specific kind of support. (00:39:42) uh you know in terms of the brand in (00:39:44) terms of uh fundraising and other kinds (00:39:46) of things. Um but you know the the (00:39:49) fundraising team is a small group and so (00:39:51) the every and every group is very (00:39:53) autonomous from every other group like (00:39:55) uh there's integration points but (00:39:57) they're they're very simple and so you (00:40:01) know for the most part there's some that (00:40:02) are more complicated than others. Um, (00:40:04) and so, you know, that's what makes it, (00:40:08) you know, the the beauty of a of a small (00:40:10) place is you can just get it done. The (00:40:14) beauty of a big place is you're very (00:40:16) powerful. Um, and so we try and kind of (00:40:18) blend those two. We took a lot. We Mark (00:40:20) and I borrowed a lot. Um, we early on we (00:40:23) really studied Huelet Packard. Uh, which (00:40:26) the the original Huelet Packard before (00:40:29) the computer business kind of swallowed (00:40:31) the the company was very much like this. (00:40:33) they had uh they were like a series of (00:40:36) companies inside a company and and (00:40:38) that's a lot how we are. (00:40:39) >> How do you vet GPS or like it seems like (00:40:42) you have to put a lot of trust in the (00:40:43) people that are running the different (00:40:44) teams if the whole thing is reputation (00:40:46) but you need to be able to scale by (00:40:48) having these kind of decentralized (00:40:49) teams. Is there anything that you do (00:40:51) there that's that's unique or or weird (00:40:54) uh that ensures that kind of like no one (00:40:56) group can infect the whole? (00:40:59) Well, I think look, first of all, in (00:41:00) order to lead one of those groups, you (00:41:03) just have to have been here and (00:41:06) performed for a long time. So, that that (00:41:08) that's kind of the first thing. So, we (00:41:10) just know you extremely well. We're not (00:41:11) we're not interviewing people for that (00:41:13) job from the outside. Like, you can't (00:41:15) get that job from the outside. And then, (00:41:20) you know, I I would say because our (00:41:22) culture is so different than other (00:41:26) venture firms, you know, for for better (00:41:28) or worse, we're just different that we (00:41:31) don't hire a lot of outside GPS anymore. (00:41:34) We generally try to hire people at an (00:41:37) earlier stage of their career and kind (00:41:39) of grow them into what we do. Um, and (00:41:42) that's worked much much better for us, I (00:41:44) would say, in general. Although we have (00:41:46) like all of us came from the outside at (00:41:48) one point of the original cast. (00:41:51) >> That makes sense. Um (00:41:54) kind of winding down here, but Mark, you (00:41:55) said that uh I think you got [ __ ] at one (00:41:57) point for saying the VC was going to be (00:41:59) the last job uh in in the world. Uh you (00:42:02) know, if you if the vision of the future (00:42:04) that you believe is true and this is (00:42:07) going to be an institution that that (00:42:08) lasts for a century, like what does A16Z (00:42:10) look like and do a century from now? (00:42:13) >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I start with I (00:42:15) believe I was misqued. I I believe it (00:42:16) was a it was one of these hypothetical (00:42:18) uh thought experiment things that kind (00:42:20) of got got overly um extrapolated, but I (00:42:23) guess I shouldn't just defend myself. Um (00:42:26) so I the point of what I was trying to (00:42:28) get across in that discussion um which (00:42:30) we you know I think if you pull the (00:42:31) original it's it's a longer form (00:42:32) discussion on it. I is goes back to what (00:42:35) what Ben said early on which is there is (00:42:37) this repeating pattern in history. I (00:42:39) mean we we can find examples of it for (00:42:41) sure going back 500 years. Um uh is this (00:42:44) repeating pattern which is basically a (00:42:46) person with a dream um a person with a (00:42:49) deep level of domain knowledge um and a (00:42:51) dream um operating in a domain with (00:42:53) asymmetric payoff um right with with (00:42:56) risk and reward where you know by the (00:42:58) way the dream may be wrong like they may (00:43:00) not be able to do the thing um but if (00:43:01) they can do the thing it will it will (00:43:03) have disproportionately high returns um (00:43:05) you know the traditional institutional (00:43:08) you know places people go to get support (00:43:10) and funding you know for the dream you (00:43:12) know for for for for new projects just (00:43:14) turn it down because you know a bank (00:43:15) can't finance you know a bank a bank (00:43:17) can't issue a loan against something (00:43:19) with a 50% you know 50% chance of a 10x (00:43:21) and 50% chance of failure like a bank (00:43:23) just can't underwrite that so a bank (00:43:25) won't do that big companies you know for (00:43:26) the most part won't do that um uh you (00:43:28) know almost nobody will do that um but (00:43:31) somebody has a dream and and then you (00:43:32) know when the dream works and especially (00:43:34) if you can construct a portfolio of (00:43:35) those dreams and of those people you (00:43:37) know then the expected you know value on (00:43:38) that is is going to be very high like (00:43:40) like that's a very special thing. Um I (00:43:43) I've had long conversations with Tyler (00:43:44) Cohen who's very in particular is very (00:43:46) thoughtful on this and he has a term (00:43:48) forget the exact term they use but it's (00:43:50) like it's it's like some combination (00:43:51) talent picker project picker um and it's (00:43:55) it's this thing you know it's like we (00:43:56) were talking about earlier about market (00:43:57) size it's this thing where like there is (00:43:58) an analytical scientific component to it (00:44:00) but there's also like an art to it and (00:44:02) there's there there's some intangible (00:44:03) because you're you're dealing with human (00:44:05) beings at a very kind of primordial (00:44:06) level you know kind of you know kind of (00:44:08) very early in the process of doing (00:44:09) something that hasn't been done before. (00:44:11) Um, and you know, quite honestly, like, (00:44:13) you know, an early example of this was, (00:44:15) you know, Queen Isabella with (00:44:16) Christopher Columbus, right? Um, and I I (00:44:18) was just like I was just I was trying to (00:44:19) picture the pitch, right? You know, (00:44:21) Christopher Columbus rolls in, right? (00:44:23) And he's like, you know, all right, you (00:44:25) know, here's, you know, I'm going to (00:44:26) find a new rout, you know, route to (00:44:27) India. By the way, you know, there's (00:44:28) like a I don't know, whatever 50 60% (00:44:30) chance that, you know, you'll never hear (00:44:31) from me again. Um, and you know, you (00:44:34) know, you know, maybe maybe I've, you (00:44:35) know, died 2,000 miles away from Spain. (00:44:37) Maybe I, by the way, maybe I just like (00:44:39) ran away with money. It's not like they (00:44:40) had Interpol in those days. (00:44:41) >> Yeah. (00:44:42) >> Um and I'm going to go do that. And then (00:44:44) and then by the way, the fact that that (00:44:45) bet paid off, but like that that like it (00:44:48) >> the whole idea was wrong. (00:44:49) >> Yeah. (00:44:50) >> But the whole the whole idea was wrong. (00:44:51) I mean, the whole idea was wrong. He (00:44:52) discovered a completely different (00:44:53) continent and he himself did not believe (00:44:55) that he had discovered a completely (00:44:56) different continent. (00:44:57) >> Right. Um and I don't even know that (00:44:59) Spain was the main beneficiary of that (00:45:00) in the long run, right? Like and so like (00:45:02) but like you know like she funded it and (00:45:04) like wow, right? (00:45:06) >> And then there's there's (00:45:09) >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yes, they they did (00:45:10) they did find some gold. They're very (00:45:11) similar story by the way the Puritans (00:45:13) have a you know the Plymouth Rock that (00:45:15) whole thing the Mayflower they have a (00:45:16) very similar story uh to that it took I (00:45:18) think 20 years to raise the financing uh (00:45:20) to be able to make the uh make the (00:45:21) Mayflower expedition um and they needed (00:45:23) they needed you know backers like that (00:45:25) you know we always talk now about in (00:45:26) venture industry you know the whaling (00:45:28) industry 400 years ago um you know (00:45:30) operated in a very similar way the the (00:45:32) movie industry has always worked this (00:45:33) way the book publishing industry has (00:45:34) always worked this way by the way (00:45:35) politics has always you know worked (00:45:37) political campaigns worked this way that (00:45:38) you know any any any new you know future (00:45:40) president starts out as a long shot, (00:45:42) somebody bets on them. And so there (00:45:43) there's there's this intangible that has (00:45:45) to do with making making these longdated (00:45:47) bets with very uncertain outcomes and (00:45:48) with high failure rates. And I mean like (00:45:50) if yes, like I think what I said in the (00:45:52) original interview is like look, if we (00:45:53) can have AI do that, like God bless like (00:45:55) I'm going to like I'm going to hit the (00:45:56) beach and like it's all good. Um but you (00:45:59) know, uh like I guess maybe makes a (00:46:01) falling flame. See, Ben, what you think (00:46:03) of this? The intangibles seem to be (00:46:05) becoming more important, not less (00:46:06) important over time. um it seems to be (00:46:09) becoming more like an art and less like (00:46:10) a science as we go. Would you agree with (00:46:12) that? (00:46:13) >> I I definitely think that's right (00:46:14) because uh history um is a bad guide. Uh (00:46:20) so you can't like the the the (00:46:22) interesting thing about VC for me (00:46:24) probably the biggest lesson is you got (00:46:26) to be very careful about a highly (00:46:27) trained neural net. Um because that's (00:46:30) when you make the mistakes because (00:46:32) things change and I would say things (00:46:34) have changed more rapidly. Like the (00:46:36) thing that we never thought would ever (00:46:37) ever ever go away is a mythical man (00:46:40) month. Um you know nine women can't have (00:46:43) a baby in a month. Well with AI you can (00:46:45) [laughter] (00:46:46) um you know with (00:46:48) >> software (00:46:49) >> it's a metaphor for software. (00:46:51) >> It's a metaphor for software. Yes. (00:46:52) Exactly. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Uh so in (00:46:54) the old days, right, like no matter how (00:46:56) many engineers you put on a team, you (00:46:58) still what you know more engineers would (00:47:00) actually slow down the project as (00:47:02) opposed to speed it up. But now uh so (00:47:04) you couldn't throw money at a problem. (00:47:07) You couldn't throw money at somebody's (00:47:09) technological lead. You'd have to do (00:47:11) something different. Um now you can (00:47:13) throw money at it. Uh you know, Elon did (00:47:15) an amazing job of throwing money um at (00:47:18) the foundation model problem and he (00:47:19) caught up very very fast. And that's (00:47:21) something that in the whole history of (00:47:23) our industry could never have happened (00:47:25) before. So if you had asked an AI if (00:47:28) Elon had any prayer of catching um open (00:47:31) AI or anthropic, they would have said no (00:47:34) way. Uh and so that's where you're (00:47:37) getting into um I mean maybe if the AI (00:47:40) was smart enough, I suppose, but like (00:47:42) the there are these a lot of it has to (00:47:44) do with like how much do you believe in (00:47:46) the person? (00:47:47) >> Yeah. And then and then the other part (00:47:48) is what we talked about already, but (00:47:49) it's it's the long and twisting path, (00:47:51) you know, the investment is just the (00:47:52) beginning, right? And it's the long and (00:47:53) twisting path that that person and that (00:47:54) company take over time and all the (00:47:56) different ways that we you know, we try (00:47:57) to try try to help them succeed. And so (00:47:59) I I think that yeah, I yeah, if yes, I I (00:48:02) don't know how to have AI do all that. (00:48:03) Um but maybe we'll figure it out. (00:48:05) >> Yeah, you could imagine an AI who could (00:48:07) do it all. Of course, if an AI was smart (00:48:09) at a human about every single thing, (00:48:11) including human psychology, then (00:48:13) certainly could be. you're you're you're (00:48:16) tasked with training this AI. Like what (00:48:17) are the things that you've learned on (00:48:18) this art that you can put into words? (00:48:20) Like if it is, and this is the most (00:48:21) optimistic view of the future I can (00:48:23) think of, the tools are getting better, (00:48:24) but the human piece really really (00:48:26) matters. Like what have you learned (00:48:27) about the art that you can that you can (00:48:29) describe? Like what do you look for in (00:48:31) in a Christopher Columbus? (00:48:33) >> Well, I mean, I think that um the first (00:48:35) thing and I you know, I hesitate to to (00:48:38) name things in in some sense because (00:48:39) they're all so different, right? like (00:48:41) Elon is really not at all like uh Mark (00:48:44) Zuckerberg, who's not at all like Ali (00:48:45) Goce, who's not like at all like Brian (00:48:49) Chesky. So like they're all different. (00:48:51) Um and (00:48:54) the but the things that they all do I I (00:48:57) would say is um they all think for (00:49:00) themselves. They're not people who read (00:49:02) the room and try and like figure out (00:49:03) what people want them to do. They they (00:49:05) they have original ideas. So original (00:49:08) idea is probably the thing that every (00:49:10) great entrepreneur has their original (00:49:12) thinkers. Um (00:49:15) and then you know they they all also (00:49:20) have some combination of enough (00:49:25) charisma. They're interesting enough um (00:49:28) that people want to follow them. Um (00:49:30) because you know ultimately you you kind (00:49:33) of need people to go okay that is the (00:49:36) leader and that's somebody who I want to (00:49:38) work with work for and so forth. Uh so (00:49:41) that's those are the things that I would (00:49:43) say almost all of them have and then and (00:49:46) I think all of them have those to be (00:49:47) great. Uh but everything else I know (00:49:51) like Steve Jobs is a very different kind (00:49:53) of guy. Um they're all they're all (00:49:56) different I would say very like Steve Jo (00:49:58) is nothing like Andy Grove like nothing (00:50:00) uh but you know they're both great. (00:50:03) >> To close us out I guess from from each (00:50:05) of you what is the thing that you're (00:50:07) personally most excited about in the (00:50:08) next kind of couple of years of A16Z but (00:50:10) just tech more broadly. Well, I mean I (00:50:13) mean you know you Mark Mark had a great (00:50:16) line like well this is on the order of (00:50:18) like the steam engine or electricity or (00:50:20) like like this is such a big invention (00:50:22) um that we're going to end up in a (00:50:25) different world and the thing that's (00:50:28) most exciting to me about it is (00:50:31) you know I wouldn't want to live in the (00:50:33) pre-electricity world. Um like I like (00:50:35) this world way way way better. And so I (00:50:39) think that like odds are we're going to (00:50:41) get to a world that's just way way (00:50:43) better than we can even like we can't (00:50:45) even get our heads around it, which is (00:50:47) why it freaks people out. Like all these (00:50:50) stuff that we have to do and so forth (00:50:52) that we've just learned to live with (00:50:54) that sucks um isn't going to be required (00:50:57) anymore. And so like you know what does (00:50:59) that mean? What do we think of then? (00:51:01) Like what does life become? It could be (00:51:04) uh you know super exciting. Now the one (00:51:08) thing with humans that's a little messed (00:51:09) up is (00:51:11) you know if that takes us too far away (00:51:13) like one of the you know too far away (00:51:15) from some grounded purpose uh about um (00:51:21) you know and beliefs uh and spirituality (00:51:24) then you know you can attach on to some (00:51:26) dumb stuff. Uh, so you know that that (00:51:29) that would be actually my only worry. (00:51:31) But I think life just the quality of (00:51:33) life for everybody is about to get like (00:51:34) way way better than it's ever been. (00:51:37) >> I'm excited about the Zoomers. (00:51:39) >> I (00:51:42) am psyched for the Zoomers. Um, I was (00:51:44) with a I was with a a founder a founder (00:51:46) team the other day. Um, and I was who (00:51:49) are Zoomers and I was explaining to (00:51:50) them, you know, why the Zoomers are so (00:51:51) much better than the millennials and why (00:51:52) they're going to save us and like the (00:51:53) whole thing is going to be great. This (00:51:54) is so great. And of course they're just (00:51:55) like staring at me like I'm speaking (00:51:57) Greek because like they you know they're (00:51:59) you know they exper you know they just (00:52:00) think like millennials are like old (00:52:01) farts that are like completely out of (00:52:02) touch. (00:52:03) >> Um and of course you know us Ben and I (00:52:06) are geners. We might as well be you know (00:52:07) stone age. Um and I was like but I was (00:52:09) like (00:52:10) >> but I was like this is what's so great (00:52:11) about the zoomers like they just like (00:52:12) they're they're it's the it's the post I (00:52:15) would describe it as 2015 to 2024 was (00:52:18) just it was a very very strange period. (00:52:21) Uh and a lot of just things got really (00:52:23) weird. Um, and the Zoomers are the (00:52:25) generation that basically was on the (00:52:27) receiving end of that. And I they're at (00:52:29) least for the Zoomers we get to deal (00:52:30) with, like they're just not having it. (00:52:32) Um, and they're not walking around (00:52:34) feeling guilty about everything all the (00:52:35) time. They're not feeling like they have (00:52:36) to like deny that they want to be (00:52:38) successful. You know, they don't have (00:52:39) any of the moral, you know, kind of hair (00:52:40) short stuff. Um, they're just like (00:52:42) they're they're if anything is like (00:52:44) that, too. Gen X kind of let go of all (00:52:46) the craziness of the 60s and early 70s. (00:52:50) >> Yeah, that's right. That's right. Gen (00:52:52) Right. Exactly. Gen X was the reaction (00:52:53) of the boomers in the same way the (00:52:54) Zoomers are reaction to the millennials. (00:52:56) Um and so the the the Zoomer founders (00:52:57) that we get to deal with I my view is (00:52:59) like it's the best. It's the best. It's (00:53:01) the best, most competent, most capable. (00:53:03) By the way, they're just like incredibly (00:53:04) well. They come in all just incredibly (00:53:07) well trained and educated because they (00:53:08) grew up online. You know, they've seen, (00:53:09) you know, a thousand hours of YouTube (00:53:11) videos from all the great, you know, (00:53:12) people in tech talking about how to do (00:53:13) everything. You know, they just know so (00:53:15) much more than previous generations of (00:53:16) founders did. Um and you know, they're (00:53:18) by the way, they're now they're all AI (00:53:20) native. um you know they all you know (00:53:21) basically learned AI from scratch and (00:53:22) you know in college and you know they're (00:53:24) coming out and they they totally (00:53:25) understand it. Um and so and they're (00:53:28) just like tremendously fired up and like (00:53:29) completely you know completely you know (00:53:31) they wear their you know they wear their (00:53:33) heart in their sleeve. They're like (00:53:34) they're they're going to build something (00:53:35) they're going to build something great (00:53:36) and they're completely unapologetic (00:53:37) about it. Uh they're very forceful. (00:53:39) They're very determined. Um yeah I I I (00:53:41) just think it's fantastic. I've been (00:53:42) waiting this Eric and Ben will tell you (00:53:44) I've been waiting for this for (00:53:46) >> for a long time. We may have to edit (00:53:49) this out, but one of the things I do (00:53:51) really like about the Zoomers, I haven't (00:53:53) ever heard anybody say anything like, (00:53:55) "I'm going to do well by doing good." (00:53:58) [laughter] Like, you should never (00:53:59) [ __ ] say that [ __ ] (00:54:00) >> No. No. (00:54:02) >> Sense of humor, too. They're funny. (00:54:03) >> Yes. Yes. They're extremely funny. Well, (00:54:05) they're extremely funny. They They get (00:54:06) it. They get They live through They were (00:54:07) on the receiving end of just a (00:54:08) tremendous amount of [ __ ] and and (00:54:10) they're just like they're just not (00:54:11) having it. Um, and so it's just I find (00:54:13) it just like tremendously exciting uh to (00:54:15) be able to work with them. And if if I (00:54:17) if I had total control over my time, it (00:54:19) would be 100% spent with Zoomer. (00:54:21) >> Well, I appreciate you spending an hour (00:54:23) with a millennial. This was a ton of (00:54:24) fun. Thank you for letting me write (00:54:26) about uh about a 16Z and and thanks for (00:54:28) thanks for the conversation. (00:54:30) >> We're we're talking about all your (00:54:31) future guests. (00:54:32) >> Exactly. Becky, this was an excellent (00:54:35) piece. Thank you so much for writing. (00:54:36) >> Yeah. My pleasure. 100%. Okay.