World Expert on Love: Your Brain Already Picked Your Partner (But They’re Lying About Monogamy) (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) We are not a monogous species. It's a (00:00:03) social construct. And I get attacked for (00:00:05) saying things like this. But sexual (00:00:06) monogamy from an evolution point of view (00:00:08) is not a good idea. That's why we have a (00:00:09) reasonably high rate of people who have (00:00:11) extramarital affairs. So do you think (00:00:13) we're all somewhat pretending to be (00:00:14) monogous? Who do you think struggles (00:00:15) with it more, men or women? And you said (00:00:17) that there's not a difference in (00:00:18) well-being and satisfaction between (00:00:20) polyamory or monogamy. Absolutely not. (00:00:22) How do we know this? Because we've done (00:00:24) studies on it. And I've committed the (00:00:25) last two decades of my life to (00:00:27) understand the neuroscience of love. Dr. (00:00:29) animation is the Oxford trained (00:00:31) evolutionary anthropologist using (00:00:33) science to decode attraction, attachment (00:00:35) styles, love addiction, and now the (00:00:37) crucial roles of the father. So, here's (00:00:40) the thing. When we look for a partner, (00:00:42) we don't know we're doing it, and it (00:00:44) involves two very distinct areas of the (00:00:46) brain. So, there's the unconscious (00:00:47) stage. That's where you take in loads of (00:00:49) sensory information about them. So, for (00:00:51) example, if you're a woman, you can (00:00:53) smell genetic compatibility. Wait, so (00:00:55) men can't smell women, but women can (00:00:57) smell them? You can smell them, but it's (00:00:58) not going to give you any information (00:00:59) about genetic compatibility. So, your (00:01:01) brain is going to help you assess (00:01:02) whether they're any good for you. If you (00:01:04) get a good ping, certain chemicals, the (00:01:06) very core of the brain take away the (00:01:08) fear. It gives you motivation. Now, (00:01:09) human love is so complicated. So, for (00:01:12) example, the chemistry that underpins (00:01:13) love is also involved in (00:01:15) neurodeiversity. So, if I have ADHD or (00:01:17) autism, how am I more likely to struggle (00:01:19) in love? This is really, really (00:01:21) important. First of all, (00:01:23) Dr. Machan, why are you talking about (00:01:25) fatherhood? The way our culture treats (00:01:27) fathers is wrong. The myths we carry (00:01:29) about fathers are wrong. Men have a very (00:01:31) specific role in child development. And (00:01:33) I wasn't expecting to find this when I (00:01:35) first started, but it's fundamental for (00:01:37) a child to thrive and survive and be (00:01:39) successful. So, what we're finding is (00:01:44) this has always blown my mind a little (00:01:45) bit. 53% of you that listen to this show (00:01:48) regularly haven't yet subscribed to the (00:01:50) show. So, could I ask you for a favor (00:01:52) before we start? If you like the show (00:01:53) and you like what we do here and you (00:01:54) want to support us, the free simple way (00:01:56) that you can do just that is by hitting (00:01:57) the subscribe button. And my commitment (00:01:59) to you is if you do that, then I'll do (00:02:01) everything in my power, me and my team, (00:02:03) to make sure that this show is better (00:02:04) for you every single week. We'll listen (00:02:06) to your feedback. We'll find the guests (00:02:08) that you want me to speak to and we'll (00:02:10) continue to do what we do. Thank you so (00:02:11) much. (00:02:15) Dr. Anna Machan, what is the the mission (00:02:19) you've so far committed your life to? (00:02:21) And and I guess adding to that, why I've (00:02:24) committed the last two decades of my (00:02:25) life to understanding human love and (00:02:27) understanding human close relationships. (00:02:30) Because as an anthropologist, I (00:02:33) understand that love sits at the center (00:02:35) of what it is to be human. If you strip (00:02:37) everything else away and you just you've (00:02:39) got your food, you've got your water, (00:02:41) the next thing you need are your (00:02:42) relationships, is your love. And we are (00:02:45) so lucky as a species to experience love (00:02:47) in quite a complex way with many (00:02:49) different types of people and beings. (00:02:51) And we know that it's like the number (00:02:52) one thing in terms of your your health, (00:02:54) mental, physical, your longevity, your (00:02:56) happiness, your well-being. And I think (00:02:58) we need to understand it particularly in (00:03:00) a world where we're starting to get a (00:03:03) lot of input in terms of technology and (00:03:05) AI and the world is getting quicker. We (00:03:08) need to go back to who we are really at (00:03:09) our core and what love really is. is and (00:03:11) and I suppose that's what I've I've (00:03:13) given my life over to is to really (00:03:14) explain to people who are you because (00:03:17) your love is your identity essentially. (00:03:20) And you use the word anthropologist (00:03:21) there. What is an anthropologist? Okay. (00:03:24) So an anthropologist is somebody who (00:03:25) studies the human species. I'm an (00:03:27) evolutionary anthropologist which means (00:03:29) I sit at the scientific end of it. You (00:03:30) consider sort of the cultural end or the (00:03:32) scientific end. And I study how (00:03:34) evolution has shaped us and also why (00:03:37) things evolved. So for example, why did (00:03:38) love evolved? Why did fatherhood evolve? (00:03:41) Um, and I use lots and lots of different (00:03:43) techniques, scanning and genetics and (00:03:44) all these different things to be able to (00:03:46) answer that question. I've got another (00:03:47) book sat in front of me here which is I (00:03:49) guess somewhat linked to love which is (00:03:51) about fathers. Yeah. So, how did how did (00:03:54) these two things come together? We've (00:03:55) got a book here about love and then (00:03:57) we've got a book about fatherhood and (00:03:58) you're you're very well known for (00:04:00) talking on the subject of fatherhood. (00:04:01) What what is the link? How did the link (00:04:03) come to be and why why are you talking (00:04:06) about fatherhood? We have the wrong idea (00:04:08) about fathers. The way our culture deals (00:04:11) with fathers, treats fathers is wrong. (00:04:13) The myths we carry about fathers are (00:04:15) wrong. The influence they have on their (00:04:16) children and ultimately on our society (00:04:19) is fundamental. So the link came because (00:04:21) I had a child and like most couples who (00:04:24) have a baby, you know, we talked about (00:04:26) it. We were like, we're going to going (00:04:27) to start trying to have a baby. Then we (00:04:28) became pregnant, which was great. Did (00:04:29) the pregnancy test together. Went to the (00:04:31) antiatal classes, went to the scans, all (00:04:33) wonderful. went in to have the baby and (00:04:36) it didn't turn out how it was supposed (00:04:38) to. I was very, very ill. I lost a lot (00:04:40) of blood. My daughter was poorly when (00:04:41) she was born. And afterwards, I was (00:04:43) offered loads of counseling. Would you (00:04:45) like a debrief? Would you like? And I (00:04:46) was like, well, to be absolutely honest, (00:04:47) I'm okay cuz I passed out. I literally (00:04:49) don't remember anything. But my husband (00:04:52) witnessed it all. And he basically saw a (00:04:55) car crash in slow motion with two people (00:04:57) in it who he loved very deeply. Um, and (00:05:00) I completely understand why it was a (00:05:01) very stressful information. But nobody (00:05:03) explained to him what was happening. And (00:05:05) so they mopped me up, took my baby, took (00:05:08) her to neonatal care and left him in the (00:05:10) room on his own. And I was breathing (00:05:12) very shallowly and he was scared. And (00:05:14) the cleaner came in and said and was (00:05:17) cleaning away. And he just said um to (00:05:18) the cleaner, do you think she's dead? (00:05:22) Cuz I was breathing so shallowly. And (00:05:24) the cleaner went, no, I don't think so, (00:05:25) mate. I think they would have told you (00:05:26) if she was dead. But after that, he (00:05:29) couldn't talk about the birth. He (00:05:31) couldn't imagine the birth. He couldn't (00:05:32) deal with the emotions from the birth (00:05:34) for a good two years afterwards. And he (00:05:36) was really worried about having another (00:05:37) kid. And this made me really angry (00:05:40) actually cuz I was like, hold on, we (00:05:42) went into this together and he's (00:05:43) literally been discarded like he doesn't (00:05:45) matter. And to me, he's fundamentally (00:05:47) important. And then as our daughter (00:05:49) grew, I saw the amazing bond he built (00:05:50) with her, how integral he was to her (00:05:52) life. And so when I went back to (00:05:53) university at Oxford to study and to do (00:05:56) my work, I thought, well, I'm an (00:05:57) anthropologist. Okay, let's look up what (00:05:59) do we know about fathers in our society. (00:06:01) And there's literally nothing. There was (00:06:04) a lot of work on absent fathers. Uh, and (00:06:07) their impact is is fundamental. We know (00:06:09) that. And there was a lot of quite (00:06:11) stereotypical work on young fathers, (00:06:12) teenage fathers. Nothing on the majority (00:06:15) of dads who whether they co-reside or (00:06:17) not stick around. So I started with some (00:06:19) really simple questions. uh what happens (00:06:21) to a man when he becomes a father? Does (00:06:23) he alter biologically, psychologically? (00:06:25) How does he build his bond with his (00:06:27) child? What's the nature of that bond? (00:06:29) Does he have a role in child development (00:06:31) separate to that to mom? Because when I (00:06:32) started 20 years ago, the mantra was (00:06:35) dads didn't undergo any changes. Uh dads (00:06:38) did not have a bond like mom to their (00:06:40) children. It was not as intense and it (00:06:41) certainly wasn't an attachment (00:06:42) relationship, which we all know are (00:06:44) really intense, important relationships. (00:06:46) And as an evolutionary anthropologist, I (00:06:48) was like that that can't be right (00:06:49) because human fatherhood is rare. We are (00:06:52) one of only 5% of mammals that have (00:06:55) investing fathers and we're the only ape (00:06:56) now. For something that rare to evolve, (00:06:59) it has to have had a purpose because it (00:07:01) led to amazing anatomical social (00:07:04) upheavalss. So that's what I began to do (00:07:06) 20 years ago. I started asking those (00:07:08) questions. I recruited my first group of (00:07:09) 15 firsttime fathers when their partners (00:07:12) were three months pregnant and off we (00:07:13) went. So the question that's front of (00:07:14) mind for me is is what is it upstream (00:07:17) that made us devalue the role of a of a (00:07:20) father? Where did that come from? (00:07:23) Because fathers are somewhat seen as (00:07:24) surplus a requirement I think. Where did (00:07:27) that come from? It's cultural. It's (00:07:29) entirely cultural because there are (00:07:30) cultures in the world who don't think (00:07:32) that and fathers are very very integral. (00:07:34) So in fact one of the most hands-on (00:07:35) fathers in the world is from the aka (00:07:37) tribe in the Congo. They keep physical (00:07:39) contact with their children for 50% of (00:07:40) the day. They carry them around. They (00:07:42) co-sleep. Not the mom. They co-s sleep (00:07:44) with the with the child. They are the (00:07:45) one that that carries the far the child (00:07:47) through the jungle when they're hunting (00:07:48) and gathering. They are the one that (00:07:50) sings to the child, reads stories to the (00:07:51) child. They even and this is the bit (00:07:52) that always gets the headlines. They (00:07:54) even will offer a nipple to soo the (00:07:56) child until the mother is ready to (00:07:57) breastfeed. So, it's cultural. We have (00:08:00) this idea that and it's partly it partly (00:08:03) came very much from the Victorian period (00:08:04) where fathers were seen to be (00:08:06) disciplinarians and and providing the (00:08:09) money and that was the Victorian idea of (00:08:11) being a father. It's also to do with our (00:08:12) with our with our politics in society (00:08:14) for a long time. So women weren't able (00:08:16) to go out to work and that's where we've (00:08:18) remained till very very recently. But (00:08:21) there's no biology behind that. That's (00:08:23) entirely cultural. And I think also it's (00:08:26) very much the case. Yes, women today we (00:08:28) have contraception so we can control our (00:08:30) our production of children. We can earn (00:08:33) our own money. We can protect ourselves. (00:08:35) We can look after ourselves. So actually (00:08:36) in one sense you think well yeah what's (00:08:38) the dad for? because I can do all those (00:08:40) things which historically the father had (00:08:41) to do when women's positions were (00:08:43) different. But and we've sort of carried (00:08:45) on with that and there's become this (00:08:47) mantra of actually then we just we just (00:08:48) don't need them. I mean I've even been (00:08:49) to lectures where they've decided that (00:08:51) the Y chromosome is going to become (00:08:52) obsolete and that we really won't need (00:08:54) dads at all even to conceive children at (00:08:56) some point and which to me sounds (00:08:58) ludicrous and that's where it's come (00:09:00) from and we've embedded that and we (00:09:01) embedded it in our media. So dads were (00:09:04) always bumbling or useless or absent. (00:09:06) you know, Daddy Pig is the ultimate (00:09:07) bumbling, useless father, and we laughed (00:09:09) at it. We think it's funny. Maybe the (00:09:11) way that these these two subjects (00:09:14) initially do sort of dovetail into each (00:09:16) other, is when we think about the state (00:09:18) of love and the role of men and women, (00:09:21) you touched a bit on there when you (00:09:23) talked about how women are earning more (00:09:24) and more, so men are becoming a little (00:09:26) bit more apparently obsolete in what (00:09:29) they can offer to a monogous (00:09:30) relationship. There were some stats that (00:09:32) I was looking at before you arrived, and (00:09:34) I'll read them out to you. The stats say (00:09:36) that only 38% of single women are (00:09:39) actively looking to date versus 61% of (00:09:42) single men. Um, which is a huge gap. (00:09:44) Morgan Stanley projects that 45% of (00:09:47) women aged 25 to 44 will be single by (00:09:50) 2030 (00:09:52) Um, in England and Wales, a record (00:09:54) almost 40% of adults have never married. (00:09:57) For women aged 30 to 34, the figure is (00:09:59) now almost 60%. (00:10:01) Which is the lowest ever. Women initiate (00:10:05) roughly 70% of divorces, showing a (00:10:07) greater willingness to exit marriages (00:10:10) that are unsatisfying than men. And (00:10:12) obviously, I think one of the points you (00:10:14) were sort of touching on there is that (00:10:15) women are now much more educated um as (00:10:18) it relates to things like college (00:10:19) degrees compared to men. There's this (00:10:22) bigger picture around relationships and (00:10:24) love that kind of sits in the background (00:10:26) of this and women's rise in (00:10:28) independence, which I think we could all (00:10:29) agree is is always going to be a (00:10:30) positive thing. But downstream from that (00:10:33) is a clear issue in how we form monogous (00:10:36) heterosexual relationships these days. (00:10:39) And also like (00:10:41) you know part of the reason one of many (00:10:43) reasons I wanted to speak to you is I (00:10:45) was I was thinking about my friendship (00:10:46) group and the women that I know and more (00:10:49) I spoke to a friend of mine a couple of (00:10:51) couple of weeks ago and I I said to her (00:10:53) like what like what are your goals and (00:10:56) she said I currently have about 150 (00:10:58) plants and I want to get to about 250 (00:11:01) plants. I I said to her do you want you (00:11:03) want to get married? You want to have (00:11:04) kids? She went no interest in that. What (00:11:06) I want is I want to get to the point (00:11:07) where I have financial freedom. so I can (00:11:09) buy a house and I want to get over 200 (00:11:10) plants. Yeah. And this is it sounds kind (00:11:13) of funny, but it's an increasingly (00:11:16) familiar story that I'm hearing which is (00:11:19) once upon a time the goal would have (00:11:20) been get married, you know, have kids, (00:11:23) build a life together. Now it's more (00:11:25) individualistic. (00:11:27) What's your thoughts here? What is the (00:11:28) state of love at the moment? Well, it's (00:11:30) definitely more individualistic. We've (00:11:32) become a more individualistic society. (00:11:34) So we are looking more at yes what do I (00:11:36) want rather than what what in a way (00:11:37) contributes to community which is what (00:11:39) collectivist societies do women in the (00:11:41) past had to get married you couldn't (00:11:43) have children out of wedlock that was (00:11:44) definitely not acceptable you had to get (00:11:46) married because uh that's where your (00:11:47) financial security was and that's what (00:11:49) you did quite often those marriages (00:11:51) weren't based on love they were based on (00:11:53) very pragmatic decisions about this is (00:11:54) where I need to be so women have been (00:11:56) freed from that they don't have to do (00:11:57) that anymore the other thing to say is (00:11:59) they've realized that romantic love (00:12:01) isn't the only love in the box what we (00:12:03) call their key survival critical (00:12:05) relationship in many cases. So the (00:12:07) relationship that's going to support (00:12:08) them emotionally, physically, (00:12:09) practically, all those sorts of things (00:12:11) are their female friends, their chosen (00:12:14) families and that's who they're turning (00:12:15) to. And that's why we're seeing less and (00:12:17) less women saying that romantic love is (00:12:18) a priority or parental love is a (00:12:20) priority. And in one sense, that's great (00:12:22) because actually it's showing that all (00:12:24) these loves are equal and I can I can (00:12:26) love in that way. And I think that's (00:12:27) wonderful in one sense, but yes, it does (00:12:29) mean that we're turning away from that (00:12:30) idea of long-term cohabiting (00:12:33) companionship. And so when people say to (00:12:35) me, for example, is marriage going to (00:12:37) die? Are we going to end? No, I don't (00:12:39) think it is. We will always, for (00:12:41) example, have a ritualistic marking of a (00:12:43) romantic relationship, whatever sex you (00:12:45) are and whatever sexuality you are, I (00:12:47) think that will always exist. But we're (00:12:48) going through a bit of a sea change. (00:12:50) We're also seeing it in older women, (00:12:52) post-menopausal women, because it's only (00:12:54) really very recently that we've got to a (00:12:56) point where we have a long (00:12:57) post-menopausal lifespan as women. (00:12:59) Usually, you know, 100 years ago, if you (00:13:01) got to 50, which is the age for (00:13:03) menopause, the standard age, you were (00:13:05) lucky if you were still alive. But now (00:13:07) that period of time could be 20, 30, 40, (00:13:09) even 50 years. So I think women post 50 (00:13:12) and they there's been a massive uptick (00:13:14) in post50 divorces instigated by women (00:13:17) is they look at their partner and they (00:13:19) think you were a great dad. I selected (00:13:22) you when when that's what I wanted to (00:13:23) do. I wanted to have children. I wanted (00:13:24) to build fun. But I look at you now and (00:13:26) I think but is this the person I want to (00:13:28) do the next phase of my life with (00:13:30) because that's a very different set of (00:13:31) needs. And so we're seeing women (00:13:33) actually looking no do you know what I'm (00:13:35) going to start a fresh? I'm going to do (00:13:36) something different. And it might be (00:13:37) they look for a different relationship (00:13:38) or they might be yeah they decide I'm (00:13:40) not going to have another romantic (00:13:41) relationship. What is the difference (00:13:43) that needs just out of curiosity? I want (00:13:44) to make sure that my partner doesn't (00:13:45) dump me when she hits 50. Okay. The (00:13:47) difference is so when we when we are (00:13:49) younger and we look for a partner for a (00:13:51) romantic relationship we don't know (00:13:52) we're doing it. There are two stages of (00:13:54) attraction in romantic love. There's the (00:13:56) unconscious stage which we share with (00:13:57) all the mammals and then there's the the (00:14:00) conscious stage which is very different. (00:14:02) That involves your neoortex which (00:14:03) looking at this is this big wnup bit on (00:14:05) the outside. Human love is special (00:14:07) because it involves two very distinct (00:14:10) areas of the brain. So this is the (00:14:11) limbic area of your brain. This bit in (00:14:13) the center here, that's your unconscious (00:14:14) brain. That's where your emotions sit, (00:14:16) where nurturing behaviors sit, where (00:14:18) attachment behaviors been. It's very (00:14:20) evolutionarily ancient. It's been around (00:14:21) for millions and millions of years. And (00:14:23) this is where initially attraction (00:14:25) starts. And what you do is you lock eyes (00:14:27) with someone across a crowded room and (00:14:29) you take in loads of sensory information (00:14:31) about them. So you take in visual (00:14:33) information. What do they look like? (00:14:34) What does their body shape tell me about (00:14:36) their value? How are they moving? Do (00:14:38) they look healthy? If you're a woman, (00:14:40) you will give them a good sniff. Um, and (00:14:42) you can smell genetic compatibility. (00:14:44) Wait, so men can can't smell women, but (00:14:47) women can smell them. Well, you can (00:14:48) smell them, but it's not going to give (00:14:49) you any information about genetic (00:14:51) compatibility. So, what what happens is (00:14:53) a woman, the major hystocompatibility (00:14:55) complex, what's that? It underpins your (00:14:57) immune system. It's a complex set of (00:14:59) genes. And bizarrely that set of genes (00:15:02) also underpins your smell, your ability (00:15:04) to smell your olfactory system. Okay? (00:15:07) And in women they can smell how (00:15:09) genetically close a male's MHC is major (00:15:12) hystocompatibility complex. How close it (00:15:14) is to theirs because you don't want too (00:15:16) close because you don't want to breed. (00:15:18) Also you want it distant because then (00:15:19) your child gets a really lovely diverse (00:15:22) immune system because they've got a (00:15:23) diverse set of genes underpinning it. So (00:15:25) you smell them. It's not a conscious (00:15:26) thing. So people say to me, "Oh, but you (00:15:28) know what about after shave? What about (00:15:30) perfumes? Or it's not conscious. You do (00:15:32) not know you're doing it. And one of the (00:15:34) things that will be fed into your limbic (00:15:36) area is the result of that little test. (00:15:38) If you're a woman, what what do they (00:15:39) smell like? How do they know this? Have (00:15:41) they tested this? Okay, we've tested (00:15:43) this in several ways. There was the very (00:15:44) famous t-shirt test which tell people (00:15:46) love. Um where you make a load of men (00:15:49) put on a very plain t-shirt. They're not (00:15:51) allowed to wash. They're not allowed to (00:15:52) use deodorant. Not allowed to do (00:15:53) anything. Wear it for 24 hours. Then we (00:15:55) put it in some ziploc bags and we went (00:15:58) get some poor unsuspecting woman to (00:16:00) sniff them all. And the idea is that the (00:16:02) one she finds most attractive to sniff (00:16:04) is the one which is genetically furthest (00:16:06) away from her. And it does work. It (00:16:08) works. When you genotype her, you can (00:16:10) see that they are different. We don't (00:16:11) have to do that anymore. We have very (00:16:13) sophisticated genotyping technology now. (00:16:15) If you really wanted to, there's a (00:16:16) company in Switzerland that will do it (00:16:18) for you. So you can spit on something, (00:16:20) send it off with your partner, and they (00:16:22) will tell you how close your major (00:16:23) hystocompatibility complexes are. I'm (00:16:25) just wondering why men didn't evolve to (00:16:27) be able to do that. We think it's (00:16:29) probably because the cost to a woman of (00:16:31) getting it wrong and having a baby who (00:16:34) is basically too genetically close is (00:16:36) much greater than it is for a man (00:16:38) because she is basically taking herself (00:16:39) out of that opportunity to to reproduce (00:16:42) for nine months plus the bit after to (00:16:44) look after that child. And so that's a (00:16:46) really long period of time. Whereas a (00:16:47) man, it's not that costly. Okay. So (00:16:51) you've taken in all that information (00:16:52) from the sensors. It's all woring around (00:16:54) in here. And what your brain is actually (00:16:55) doing is your brain has got a very (00:16:56) complicated algorithm which is working (00:16:59) out the biological market value of the (00:17:02) person in front of you. Now the (00:17:04) biological market value is how likely (00:17:06) that person is to be reproductively (00:17:08) successful. Because from an evolutionary (00:17:11) point of view, that's the whole point of (00:17:12) your existence. Whether you want kids or (00:17:14) not, guys, that's the point is you have (00:17:16) to reproduce. Have some lovely, healthy (00:17:18) kids, raise them to maturity so they can (00:17:21) reproduce because we just want your (00:17:22) genes from an evolutionary standpoint. (00:17:23) We're not interested in you as a (00:17:24) personality. And so you want somebody (00:17:27) who has got the highest likelihood of (00:17:29) being good at that. And we can tell that (00:17:31) from lots of things to do with how (00:17:32) someone looks, the pitch of their voice, (00:17:34) how they smell. What men actually do is (00:17:36) they look at the waist hip ratio. You (00:17:38) don't know you're doing it, but (00:17:40) eyetracking experiments show that men do (00:17:42) it. They don't know that it's completely (00:17:43) unconscious. Wonderful studies been done (00:17:45) with people walking down the street with (00:17:47) we not mentioning to them what we're (00:17:49) looking for. They're wearing eyetracking (00:17:51) uh technology and what they do is the (00:17:54) first thing they glance at even if they (00:17:55) don't know it is the waist tip ratio (00:17:57) before. For example, they will look at (00:17:58) the face and what they're calculating is (00:18:01) what that ratio is because we know (00:18:02) cross-culturally the most attractive (00:18:04) ratio is a 7. And that is actually a (00:18:07) classic hourglass (00:18:09) cross-culturally. Cross-culturally if we (00:18:11) go and it's nothing to do with weight (00:18:13) because some cultures like bigger (00:18:15) weights than other cultures. Nothing to (00:18:16) do with weight. It's to do with the (00:18:17) ratio. And so if we were show if we show (00:18:19) that ratio to different cultures, they (00:18:21) will go it's that one. And the reason (00:18:24) for that is there is a direct link (00:18:25) between that ratio and for example (00:18:26) fertility. So if a woman has that it (00:18:28) shows she's got high circulating (00:18:29) estrogen. It shows she's not near (00:18:31) menopause because when we go to (00:18:32) menopause we we get more of a male (00:18:34) figure. It goes towards one the ratio (00:18:36) because of the drop in estrogen and the (00:18:37) and the buildup in testosterone. So we (00:18:39) know that there's a link between 7 and a (00:18:42) range of illnesses uh chronic illnesses (00:18:45) such as diabetes, heart disease, certain (00:18:47) forms of cancer. So actually what you're (00:18:49) assessing there is how healthy how (00:18:50) fertile is this woman? So, if I take (00:18:52) myself off the market for a period of (00:18:54) time, am I going to end up with some (00:18:55) kids? And is she healthy to raise them? (00:18:58) In those eyetracking studies, what do (00:19:00) women look at? Women look at slightly (00:19:03) different things. And for women, what's (00:19:04) really interesting is it's not as (00:19:07) visual. So, women look at the at the (00:19:10) shoulder waist ratio. So, that's Yes, (00:19:13) there we go. And what you're looking for (00:19:15) as a woman is a triangle. So, nice broad (00:19:17) shoulders, narrow waist. Okay. Okay. Now (00:19:20) the ideal there is 1.6. (00:19:23) What I will say before men rush off and (00:19:26) measure their weight is really only (00:19:27) Olympic athletes have 1.6. 1.6 meaning (00:19:30) the top half should be 1.6 bigger than (00:19:33) than your waist. Okay. So if my waist is (00:19:36) let's say 100. Yes. That's how bad my (00:19:39) math is. Yes. This needs to be 160. 160. (00:19:42) Okay. So my waist is 100. The top is (00:19:44) 160. Yes. Okay. Okay. But that's (00:19:46) actually really only Olympic athletes. (00:19:48) Please everyone don't rush off and (00:19:50) worry. Um but what that's showing is (00:19:52) that shows certain things which are (00:19:54) desirable in a male. Um so things like (00:19:57) physical strength. So if you have a big (00:19:59) upper body and a narrow waist, first of (00:20:01) all, it shows you're not holding fat (00:20:02) around here, which is a real sign of ill (00:20:04) health for men. It shows you that you're (00:20:06) very fit around here. It shows that (00:20:07) you've got very broad shoulders. You are (00:20:08) muscular. You are able to to protect and (00:20:11) provide. It's a sign of reasonably high (00:20:12) testosterone. Testosterone is linked to (00:20:15) success in men. Okay? So it shows that (00:20:18) I'm I'm a successful person in our (00:20:19) society that's successful socially and (00:20:21) successful financially. Testosterone is (00:20:23) linked to success in men. Yes. Yes. (00:20:24) Because it makes you very competitive. (00:20:26) Okay. So we get all these things. You (00:20:28) take all that in. You take in that (00:20:30) visual information. You do your little (00:20:31) algorithm in your brain which obviously (00:20:33) you don't know is happening. If you get (00:20:34) a good ping as in yes this person has a (00:20:37) good biological market value. I like (00:20:38) that. What happens is in the very core (00:20:40) of the brain in the middle. So this is (00:20:42) this is the very core of the brain here. (00:20:44) There's a a structure in there called (00:20:45) the nucleus cumbent. It's full of (00:20:46) dopamine and oxytocin receptors that (00:20:49) fires off, goes completely mad if we (00:20:52) look at it on the screen. And dopamine (00:20:54) and oxytocin flood that system. And the (00:20:56) reason why they are important is in a (00:20:57) way they are the hormones of attraction. (00:20:59) So oxytocin lowers your inhibitions to (00:21:02) starting new relationships. Okay? So it (00:21:04) takes away the fear. And the way it does (00:21:07) that is it quietens your amydala. So the (00:21:08) amigdula is a tiny little structure down (00:21:10) here at the bottom and it it's where (00:21:13) fear sits and that's the thing that if (00:21:15) you're not feeling confident has that (00:21:16) monologue in the back of your head going (00:21:18) okay you're just you're just not very (00:21:19) good at this. You're going to walk (00:21:20) across the bar. You're going to say (00:21:21) hello and they're going to humiliate (00:21:23) you. So it quietens that area. We see (00:21:25) less activity there. So you've got more (00:21:27) confidence. Also oxtoin makes you feel (00:21:28) quite chilled. It's quite nice. And then (00:21:30) dopamine is also released because (00:21:32) dopamine is your hormone of motivation. (00:21:35) And if you just had oxytocin, you might (00:21:37) be so chilled, you sat on the barcel and (00:21:39) you did not move because you're having a (00:21:41) lovely time. So dopamine is there to go, (00:21:43) no, you actually have to go across the (00:21:44) bar and you have to say hello. And so (00:21:46) they work really, really well together. (00:21:48) And they also work together to make your (00:21:49) brain more plastic. So I have to ask you (00:21:52) then, if I'm a single person, yes, and (00:21:55) with what you've just told me about the (00:21:56) brain, I'm trying to increase the (00:21:58) probability that someone will be (00:22:00) attracted to me and form a relationship (00:22:02) to me. M what kind of behavior do I need (00:22:06) to be embodying to cuz I want to I want (00:22:08) to reduce the fear part of their brain (00:22:10) so that they're they're more comfortable (00:22:11) and I want that oxytocin and dopamine to (00:22:13) be firing. Yes, absolutely. So quite (00:22:15) often people say to me how can I hack my (00:22:17) first date? So the way you can hack your (00:22:19) first date is you can do an activity (00:22:23) which releases betaendorphine and (00:22:24) dopamine and oxytocin. The best one I (00:22:26) have found which I I appreciate is a (00:22:28) niche interest is some form of dancing (00:22:31) in couples. ballroom dancing, you know, (00:22:33) tango, whatever it is, because first of (00:22:36) all, you're touching. So, you get (00:22:38) released oxytocin and betaendorphine. (00:22:40) They're both released by touch. You're (00:22:42) moving around. As any gym bunny knows, (00:22:44) exercise produces betaendorphine. (00:22:47) Hopefully, you're not that great at (00:22:48) this. So, you're going to laugh a lot (00:22:49) because you're actually a little bit (00:22:51) rubbish. Okay? So, you're releasing lots (00:22:53) and lots of lovely oxytocin dopamine and (00:22:54) betendorphine doing that. Then (00:22:56) afterwards, you need to go and have a (00:22:58) curry. Okay? Because betaendorphine (00:23:01) evolved initially as your body's (00:23:03) painkiller. That's stellar role it has. (00:23:05) Over time it's been co-opted into our (00:23:07) social uh sphere. But we know you have (00:23:10) pain receptors in your gut. So if you (00:23:12) have a curry, your gut gets a little bit (00:23:13) irritated because it's a little bit (00:23:15) spicy. So don't have a coma. And it (00:23:18) produces (00:23:19) and and we know that that will also help (00:23:22) you help you feel more euphoric, help (00:23:24) you feel more relaxed and help that (00:23:25) person be more attracted to you because (00:23:27) they will also get a hit of it. So that (00:23:29) that's your ideal date. I appreciate (00:23:31) it's very niche and not everyone will (00:23:32) want to do that, but there are ways and (00:23:34) then I'm going to take her to the comedy (00:23:36) store. Yeah. And have a really good (00:23:38) belly laugh. A proper laugh produces (00:23:40) beta endorphin. Okay. Yeah. Had we (00:23:43) finished with the Well, so what you're (00:23:44) doing, your biological market value (00:23:45) comes out. As I say, you hit dopamine (00:23:47) oxytocin. Your amydala quietens. You (00:23:50) feel much more confident. You feel much (00:23:51) more chilled. Dopamine motivates you to (00:23:53) walk across the bar and off you go and (00:23:54) you strike up conversation. And that is (00:23:57) the way attraction works in all mammals. (00:23:59) It's completely unconscious. So you (00:24:01) don't know any of this is happening. (00:24:03) What's different in humans is very (00:24:05) quickly after that, particularly once (00:24:06) they've opened their mouth, it all (00:24:08) starts kicking off in the outer area of (00:24:10) the brain. So your neoortex. So the (00:24:12) major social area of the brain is here. (00:24:14) This is your prefrontal cortex. And your (00:24:17) prefrontal cortex is where all those (00:24:18) social uh abilities sit, you know. So um (00:24:22) trust uh reciprocity ability to maintain (00:24:25) ability to abstract about your (00:24:27) relationship or ability to daydream (00:24:29) about what it's going to be and that's (00:24:31) where all that sits. So we start seeing (00:24:32) firing off here and what's really what's (00:24:34) really important for human love is there (00:24:36) is a connection between this area of the (00:24:38) brain which is known as the striatum (00:24:40) which is unconscious and this area of (00:24:42) the brain the prefrontal cortex. So your (00:24:44) unconscious brain and your conscious (00:24:45) brain can work together in attraction (00:24:48) and also this area of the brain at the (00:24:50) back which is known as the mentalizing (00:24:53) empathizing area of the brain. So we (00:24:54) need to have empathy in relationships. (00:24:56) It's the basis of love. So understanding (00:24:58) someone's emotional state and being able (00:25:00) to respond to it appropriately and also (00:25:02) mentalizing. So mentalizing is mind (00:25:04) readading. What's their intention? What (00:25:06) are they going to do next? You need it (00:25:07) for conversation. You also need it to (00:25:09) spot a cheat (00:25:12) because you need to check someone's (00:25:13) intention. So the mentalizing area of (00:25:15) the brain is important. The sad bit and (00:25:17) I'll explain this in a minute is is (00:25:18) unfortunately that bit shuts down a (00:25:19) little bit which isn't very helpful but (00:25:21) we'll talk about that. So then as soon (00:25:22) as they open their mouth you start to (00:25:24) contemplate them consciously and what (00:25:26) you contemplate consciously in terms of (00:25:28) your attraction can actually override (00:25:30) the unconscious bit. So you might have (00:25:32) had this amazing feeling of, you know, (00:25:34) lust and chemistry as you walk across (00:25:36) the bar thinking, "Wow, this person's (00:25:37) amazing. I'm feeling astonishing." They (00:25:40) open their mouth and they say something (00:25:42) to you which is just, you know, (00:25:44) unconscionable or awful or they've got (00:25:46) no sense of humor or they're really (00:25:48) unkind or whatever it might be and (00:25:50) suddenly that bit will step in and go, (00:25:51) "Uh-uh, nope, this person is not for (00:25:54) me." And that can override the biology. (00:25:56) But that's why what we say and I always (00:25:58) say the brain is the sexiest organ in (00:25:59) the body because ultimately it's what (00:26:01) you express with your brain that is (00:26:02) going to really determine whether or not (00:26:04) this love is going to go anywhere. And (00:26:06) that's what you say. Because ultimately (00:26:08) as humans the thing that makes us the (00:26:10) most successful species on the planet is (00:26:11) our brain. Not your shoulder waist (00:26:13) ratio, not your waist hip ratio. It's (00:26:16) actually your brain. Because you want (00:26:17) your kid to have the most creative, (00:26:19) flexible, funny, intelligent, (00:26:21) emotionally intelligent brain they can (00:26:23) have. And that's what you're looking for (00:26:24) in a partner in the long term. So based (00:26:26) on what you know about attraction and (00:26:28) falling in love and all those things, (00:26:30) what is like the worst thing one could (00:26:32) say in terms of the themes, the types of (00:26:34) things someone could say that would just (00:26:35) completely put you off. So I think (00:26:37) probably the absolutely worst thing you (00:26:39) can say and this comes from a lot of (00:26:41) data saying what's the most important is (00:26:42) to say something unkind. (00:26:45) So we know regardless of everything (00:26:48) else, the one thing that people want in (00:26:50) a long-term relationship is somebody (00:26:51) kind. (00:26:53) So something critical of somebody else (00:26:54) in the room, particularly something crit (00:26:56) I mean, you don't know what that (00:26:57) person's interests are, but something (00:26:58) critical about something that's very (00:26:59) important to them. Don't be alarmed. The (00:27:02) waiter, waitress. Yeah. Exactly. That's (00:27:03) why how people treat I mean, personally, (00:27:06) I find people who treat waiters (00:27:07) enraging, you know, badly enraging. Um, (00:27:10) that's why because it's a rare (00:27:12) representation of who you are at your (00:27:13) core or they express a value which goes (00:27:16) completely against a value that you have (00:27:18) because we know in terms of long (00:27:19) long-term compatibility, it's things to (00:27:22) do with personality, it's things to do (00:27:24) with long-term values or beliefs that (00:27:26) are the most important things. So, let's (00:27:28) say somebody said something horrendously (00:27:30) homophobic or something like that or (00:27:32) something racist, that's an immediate (00:27:35) right. No, this person is not for me. (00:27:37) What about Ix? Because I see seem to (00:27:39) have emerged as like a it's so it's got (00:27:41) a friend of mine who's she's never been (00:27:44) in a relationship. She's um she's just (00:27:46) 37 years old, 38 years old. And I (00:27:49) remember one day she was like, "Steve, (00:27:50) what am I doing wrong?" And I'm not (00:27:51) listen I was never really a dater. So I (00:27:53) have no right to to tell someone what (00:27:54) they're doing right or wrong. But she (00:27:55) showed me her dating profile. And in a (00:27:57) dating profile she said to me, I said no (00:28:00) to this guy and I looked at this guy (00:28:01) he's like a he's like a stud. (00:28:04) He's beautifully good-looking. was (00:28:06) really really kind in the messages he (00:28:07) had sent. She goes, "But if you look in (00:28:09) the background of his photo, there's (00:28:11) boxes on top of his wardrobe." And she (00:28:14) was like, "So I said no." Right now, (00:28:16) from an evolutionary perspective, you (00:28:18) can go, "Okay, maybe he's living at his (00:28:19) mom's house. Maybe he's just moved in. (00:28:20) Maybe what? Whatever. Maybe he's not a (00:28:22) settled person." But really, there is (00:28:24) become a culture of women and men (00:28:27) excluding each other based on extremely (00:28:29) surface level things. Now I'm like, does (00:28:31) that is that the preffrontal cortex (00:28:33) doing its job or is that something else? (00:28:34) It is the prefrontal cortex doing its (00:28:36) job. I would say it's not doing its job (00:28:39) terribly well. The ick is a really (00:28:40) recent thing that was generated by (00:28:42) social media. And this idea of narrowing (00:28:45) in closer and closer and closer and what (00:28:47) people like to call red flags and you (00:28:50) don't get a lot of information from (00:28:51) online dating because you don't get a (00:28:52) lot of sensory information to help you (00:28:54) make a decision. So people become more (00:28:56) and more obsessive. What's in the image? (00:28:58) What's in the image? What can I get (00:28:59) about this person? And they start to (00:29:01) become obsessed with tiny tiny things. (00:29:03) What ultimately people find attractive (00:29:05) is very very complicated. It's there are (00:29:08) so many different things that feed into (00:29:09) attraction. Whether or not somebody has (00:29:11) boxes on top of their wardrobe is very (00:29:13) unlikely to be even vaguely important in (00:29:15) terms of compatibility. I don't think (00:29:17) they should be called dating apps. I (00:29:18) think they should be called introduction (00:29:19) apps. And that's actually what the great (00:29:20) Helen Fcher said. She said they're (00:29:22) introduction apps. They broaden your (00:29:23) pool. They make more people available to (00:29:25) you. That's it. You're not having a date (00:29:28) on that app. You're not learning about (00:29:29) that person on that app. You're (00:29:31) literally seeing them for the first (00:29:32) time. And as soon as you can get in the (00:29:34) room with them and you can let your (00:29:35) brain do what it's really good at, half (00:29:37) a million years of evolution, that's (00:29:39) what you should do because they handicap (00:29:41) your brain. They give you very little (00:29:43) information to go into that algorithm. (00:29:45) You said something really interesting (00:29:46) there which kind of dubtales into what I (00:29:49) was saying about my friend who's never (00:29:50) dated but is struggling in dating. I (00:29:52) know a growing number of people that are (00:29:54) going on like a hundred dates a year and (00:29:56) having no luck. And just like (00:29:57) mathematically I go surely there must (00:30:00) have been someone suitable in that pool (00:30:02) of 100 people a year that you've met. (00:30:04) Yeah. What is going on here? It's two (00:30:07) things I think. First of all, as I've (00:30:08) said, it's the low cost of dating apps. (00:30:10) So in the old days when I was dating, (00:30:13) going on a date was a real investment of (00:30:15) time and energy. So you would probably (00:30:17) meet someone at work, you'd meet someone (00:30:19) at a bar, you'd meet someone through a (00:30:20) friend, which was a real blind date. And (00:30:22) you'd, you know, spend your time (00:30:23) thinking, what am I going to wear? and (00:30:25) I've got to go somewhere with this (00:30:26) person and spend some time with this (00:30:27) person, probably some financial (00:30:28) investment as well, get myself all (00:30:30) ready, spend an evening with them. And (00:30:31) that was how you were going to meet (00:30:32) somebody. So, you invested time and you (00:30:35) weren't going to do that unless you were (00:30:37) serious, to be honest. Because (00:30:38) otherwise, I'll stay at home. I'll do (00:30:40) something else. I'll go to the pub with (00:30:41) my friends. Whereas now, because we can (00:30:43) do it, we can literally go on a dating (00:30:45) app anywhere on the tube, while we're (00:30:48) cooking dinner, while we're watching (00:30:49) Netflix, anytime we want. It's low cost, (00:30:52) low investment. I read a study that (00:30:54) showed it was in a different context, (00:30:56) but it essentially showed that the (00:30:57) amount you invest in something (00:31:00) correlates to the amount that you (00:31:01) appreciate the thing. Absolutely. They (00:31:03) did this study where they let people (00:31:04) into a boring um forum without having to (00:31:08) pass any entry test and then they asked (00:31:10) them how much they appreciated the (00:31:11) boring forum and people said it's it's (00:31:13) uh it's boring. Yes. And then they got (00:31:15) another group of people, they made them (00:31:16) go through this sort of rigorous test to (00:31:18) get into this boring forum and then they (00:31:19) asked them how much do you appreciate (00:31:20) the forum. They said it's great. Yeah. (00:31:22) I'm obviously paraphrasing there, but it (00:31:23) just showed this link between the amount (00:31:25) you invest in a process is the more you (00:31:26) you appreciate it. And I think back to (00:31:28) being I don't know 14 years old going on (00:31:30) my first date and the the whole process (00:31:32) of getting ready to go to the cinema and (00:31:35) thinking about my outfit for 3 days and (00:31:37) then going there and being nervous and I (00:31:39) didn't have much money so this was like (00:31:40) a big thing and then how much you know I (00:31:41) almost felt like I fell in love with the (00:31:43) person irrespective just because of the (00:31:46) effort I'd put in I feel like I fell in (00:31:47) love with them. So So yeah. So that's so (00:31:49) so it's partly the low cost thing. It's (00:31:51) partly because all those people that (00:31:54) if you were doing it in person, your (00:31:56) brain would filter out. Let's say there (00:31:57) were 100 people in the room, your brain (00:32:00) would quite quickly filter out most of (00:32:02) them as no no no no no no maybe one or (00:32:05) two might because you can't filter in (00:32:07) that way on an app. You kind of take the (00:32:09) punt on all these dates because you're (00:32:11) like otherwise how else am I going to (00:32:12) actually meet this person? you can't (00:32:14) just have a casual chat by the coffee (00:32:15) machine at work or you know meet them (00:32:17) through some friends in the pub where (00:32:18) you would do that assessment without (00:32:20) really making that much effort whereas (00:32:23) because on a dating app the only way you (00:32:25) can meet that person is to actually go (00:32:27) on a date with them and do all that you (00:32:30) will end up going on a hundred to do (00:32:31) that filtering process. So it's partly (00:32:33) that as well and the last thing is the (00:32:35) paradox of choice. Yeah. So, we are (00:32:38) really, really bad at making choices (00:32:40) when there's a lot of options. And the (00:32:41) paradox of choice is very powerful in (00:32:44) relation to dating apps because (00:32:46) literally, particularly if you're (00:32:47) good-looking and you get a lot of (00:32:49) matches, there's like a smorggas board (00:32:51) of people out there that you can carry (00:32:53) on flipping or you can make a choice. (00:32:54) And it's our brains are not set up for (00:32:56) that. You know, a 100 years ago when we (00:32:58) were trying to find a partner, you would (00:33:00) maybe have the people in your village (00:33:02) who you grew up with to choose from. If (00:33:03) you had a horse, you could maybe have (00:33:05) the people in the next village or even a (00:33:06) town. Wow. And that was who you chose (00:33:08) from and it was a very small pool. Now (00:33:10) you can go anywhere in the world, turn (00:33:12) on your dating app and possibly have, (00:33:15) you know, hundreds of people to meet and (00:33:17) your brain can't do that. I mean, we can (00:33:18) all think about it as well in the (00:33:19) context of restaurants. If you go to (00:33:21) Thailand, Yeah. they give you like a a (00:33:23) catalog. Yes. The menu is a catalog. (00:33:26) They're like, "We will make anything." (00:33:27) Yeah. And you sit there for like Yeah. (00:33:29) 45 minutes thinking, "Do I want fish, (00:33:31) chicken, eggs?" But then you go to like (00:33:32) a London fancy restaurant and there's (00:33:35) like we do this. This is it. So that's (00:33:37) why you end up with people who Yes. go (00:33:40) on 100 dates and don't actually (00:33:43) end up with anybody because they haven't (00:33:44) had that opportunity to filter. Monogamy (00:33:47) and polyamory. Yes. So can you define (00:33:50) both of those words? And um the thing (00:33:52) that I found really striking is I think (00:33:54) I heard you say that satisfaction in (00:33:57) either dynamic there polyamory or (00:33:59) monogamy is roughly the same because I (00:34:03) thought people in monogous relationships (00:34:04) were supposed to be way more happy than (00:34:06) people that are in polyamorous (00:34:07) relationships. No, not at all. So (00:34:10) monogamy is a relationship state where (00:34:12) there are two people who are (00:34:15) we okay we have to find two sorts of (00:34:16) monogamy. There's sexual monogamy that (00:34:19) is you are exclusive to that other (00:34:21) person sexually. You have sex with (00:34:22) nobody else and there is social monogamy (00:34:25) and that is you live with that person (00:34:27) exclusively. So within the UK, most (00:34:30) people, let's say if they have children, (00:34:32) are socially monogous. They live in a (00:34:33) household with their children with two (00:34:35) people in it. Whereas sexual monogamy, (00:34:38) you can be socially monogous and not (00:34:39) sexually monogous. So they're two (00:34:41) different things. But monogamy, if we (00:34:43) talk about it in sort of lay terms, is (00:34:46) two people who are exclusive to each (00:34:47) other in terms of love, in terms of sex, (00:34:50) and in terms of possibly living (00:34:51) together. Monogamy itself is a social (00:34:54) construct mostly. We are not a monogous (00:34:57) species. There are in fact very few (00:34:59) monogous species in the world. Maybe I (00:35:01) think I read a book the other day. It (00:35:02) says something like 0.002% (00:35:05) of the animals on this planet are (00:35:07) monogous because what you will see in (00:35:09) the wild and what you see mostly with (00:35:11) humans is social monogamy. They live (00:35:12) together but we know that the infidelity (00:35:15) rate is sits generally at around 50%. So (00:35:18) 50% of those households are not sexually (00:35:21) monogous. Um and in fact from an (00:35:23) evolutionary point of view being (00:35:24) sexually monogous is a really quite bad (00:35:26) idea because um you are limiting (00:35:29) yourself to a very narrow gene pool and (00:35:32) that's why there are very few creatures (00:35:33) in the world that are truly sexually (00:35:34) monogous. I when I was doing my masters (00:35:36) my professor studied gibbons. Gibbons at (00:35:38) the time were known to be the monogous (00:35:40) ape and he studied he did a really (00:35:42) longitudinal study and he was the first (00:35:44) to realize that no they weren't. They (00:35:45) were all sneaking off and doing it (00:35:46) behind the rock with somebody else but (00:35:48) they were living together. But the (00:35:50) female was going to find some better (00:35:52) jeans somewhere else. This guy, (00:35:54) brilliant parent, not great jeans. I'm (00:35:56) going to go behind a rock and mate with (00:35:57) this really good-looking gibbon over (00:35:58) here because I'm going to get some good (00:35:59) jeans and then he's going to raise the (00:36:00) kid. And the and the guy is like, well, (00:36:03) you know, I'm obviously going to have (00:36:04) offspring here, but actually, you know, (00:36:06) mating with another female is not (00:36:07) particularly costly to me. So, I'll just (00:36:09) go and do that over there and let's hope (00:36:10) she can raise them on her own or maybe (00:36:11) her partner will raise them for me. So, (00:36:14) there are very few. So we have monogamy (00:36:16) in in mainly in the west um because it's (00:36:19) a socially prescribed (00:36:22) form of organization and it was imposed (00:36:24) because it is a form of control. It (00:36:27) mainly sits in terms of rules (00:36:28) particularly in religion but also there (00:36:30) were many legal rules. For example in in (00:36:32) Britain you can't be you can't have two (00:36:34) marriages. You can't be a bigamist. And (00:36:36) it's about making everybody control. (00:36:38) Because if we if we all just gave in (00:36:39) constantly to precisely what our drives (00:36:42) were saying, there'd be kind of chaos. (00:36:44) And those in power wouldn't be able to (00:36:46) predict what anybody is going to do (00:36:48) because actually I'm just going to go I (00:36:49) feel, you know, sexually attracted to (00:36:51) whoever that is over there. I'm going to (00:36:52) go marry with them, but I'm going to (00:36:52) come back and live here, but then I've (00:36:53) got a kid over there and it's it's all (00:36:55) really really confusing. So over time (00:36:57) when civilization first arose the more (00:37:00) complex we got and as we started to live (00:37:02) together in cities those in control were (00:37:04) like okay I really needed to be able to (00:37:05) predict what these lesser beings are (00:37:07) going to do so I'm going to impose (00:37:08) monogamy you can only live with one (00:37:11) person and basically have sex with one (00:37:12) person nobody actually ever only had sex (00:37:14) with one person but we're going to look (00:37:15) like we do and those are the rules and (00:37:17) that's why we have legitim legitimacy (00:37:19) rules about children and inheritance and (00:37:21) all that kind of thing because it (00:37:22) maintains control. So monogamy is yeah (00:37:26) simply a social construct. It's not (00:37:28) something that we've biologically (00:37:30) evolved to do. And we know that part you (00:37:32) know there are many countries in the (00:37:33) world where monogamy isn't what is (00:37:35) prescribed. How are those cultures (00:37:37) getting on the ones that aren't (00:37:38) monogous? Fine. What what cultures are (00:37:41) those? So you tend to get so so for (00:37:43) example in certain religions. So in (00:37:45) certain forms of Islam for example men (00:37:47) can have many wives. There are certain (00:37:50) um tribes which exist within sort of (00:37:52) South America and in certain areas of (00:37:53) Africa where you can have many wives. (00:37:55) For example, there are some um groups in (00:37:57) Nepal in the Himalayas where we have (00:38:00) what's known as polyandry. So one woman (00:38:02) has many husbands. Um usually the reason (00:38:05) why these different um groupings evolved (00:38:07) like monogamy is it's something to do (00:38:09) with economics generally. So for example (00:38:12) in Nepal in these areas because they (00:38:15) still have um male inheritance of land. (00:38:18) If let's say we've got a family farm and (00:38:20) there's five brothers if all of those (00:38:23) five brothers split the inheritance then (00:38:24) that farm would become uneconomic. You (00:38:27) wouldn't be able to farm it and make (00:38:28) money. So over time what's involved is (00:38:29) one woman will marry all the brothers so (00:38:32) that when they inherit the farm they (00:38:34) will all get it will carry on passing (00:38:36) down essentially. So if it goes against (00:38:39) our evolutionary design to be in (00:38:41) monogous relationships, doesn't that (00:38:42) mean that there's a lot of people who (00:38:44) are (00:38:45) struggling against their Yeah, (00:38:48) absolutely. And that's why we have a a (00:38:50) reasonably high rate of people who have (00:38:52) extrammarital affairs. It's also why (00:38:54) people who are polyamorous or indeed (00:38:56) have open relationships say actually (00:38:58) it's the more truthful way of being (00:39:00) human because all they're doing is (00:39:02) following their drives and they actually (00:39:04) believe that it's more moral because if (00:39:06) you put forward a monogous front and you (00:39:08) have an affair, you are lying to people. (00:39:10) You are keeping a secret from people you (00:39:12) profess to love. Whereas if you're (00:39:14) polyamorous or you're in an open (00:39:16) relationship, you're actually openly (00:39:17) saying this is my drive. This is the (00:39:19) reality and I'm being truthful with (00:39:21) everybody about it. you can enter a (00:39:22) relationship with me or not on the basis (00:39:25) of truth. And that's what a lot of (00:39:27) polyamorous people particularly will (00:39:28) argue is that they're really (00:39:30) representing what is for most people an (00:39:33) ancestral state. Polyory is difficult (00:39:36) because unlike open relationships, open (00:39:38) relationships such as such as swinging (00:39:40) or or being open, we call them (00:39:42) consensual non- monogamy. That's just (00:39:44) based on sex. So you're not spreading (00:39:45) your love relationship, that emotional (00:39:47) investment, that emotional intimacy (00:39:49) amongst more than one person. Polyamory (00:39:51) is uh being open and having several (00:39:54) sexual partners and also having several (00:39:56) emotionally intimate relationships at (00:39:58) the same time. And I think people (00:39:59) struggle more with that because of the (00:40:00) issues of of jealousy um and the fact (00:40:03) that that goes quite strongly against (00:40:05) even our social ideas about monogamy (00:40:07) where we all sort of live in pairs. I've (00:40:09) got a friend of mine that's uh secretly (00:40:12) in an open polyamorous relationship (00:40:15) basically where there's two couples and (00:40:17) they are together. Yeah. So there's four (00:40:21) of them basically. But they they don't (00:40:22) talk about it publicly because of the (00:40:24) judgment. Yeah. And I think maybe part (00:40:27) of the issue is that judgment that (00:40:28) that's for the polyamorous people I I've (00:40:30) interviewed particularly for my book (00:40:32) that was the major thing is that they (00:40:35) were very happy in the relationship. The (00:40:36) relationships were going really really (00:40:37) well. But what was difficult was being (00:40:39) open about it. Particularly with for (00:40:40) example I'm talking to one woman who was (00:40:42) like like older members of the family. (00:40:45) So she was going to a family wedding. (00:40:47) She was and when she went to these (00:40:49) occasions with this family, she could (00:40:50) only ever take one of her partners. It (00:40:52) always had to be the same partner (00:40:54) because they had no idea the other (00:40:55) partner existed because that would be (00:40:57) very difficult for them to take. Also, (00:40:59) we know from studies that have been done (00:41:01) looking at people's attitudes to (00:41:02) polyamorous people. It they are seen as (00:41:05) immoral. They are seen as um unloving. (00:41:08) They're seen as cold because they have (00:41:10) this ability to love lots of many. They (00:41:12) can't truly love anybody because they're (00:41:14) splitting their heart between all these (00:41:16) different people. Polyamorous people (00:41:17) look at it the other way. As I've said, (00:41:18) they actually think it's very moral (00:41:20) because they're being truthful. (00:41:21) Polyamorous relationships tend to be (00:41:23) based on very open communication. That's (00:41:25) one of the rules is that is everybody (00:41:27) still happy? Is everybody still happy (00:41:28) with where the boundaries are? Has (00:41:30) anybody upset anybody else? So, it's (00:41:31) it's very very open. And they also (00:41:34) believe that and in some ways the (00:41:36) support from this, you know, we are able (00:41:38) to to love many friends at once. We're (00:41:40) able to love many children at once. They (00:41:41) say actually they don't split their (00:41:42) their heart. It's not a zero- sum game (00:41:44) that you get 50% and you get 50%. (00:41:46) Actually, that each time they take (00:41:48) somebody into their lives, their heart (00:41:49) just gets bigger. Do you think we're all (00:41:51) somewhat pretending to be monogamous? (00:41:54) I think some people are (00:41:57) happier with monogamy. We know that (00:41:59) partly from a genetic point of view. Um, (00:42:03) so there are some people, no, I don't (00:42:04) think struggle with it, but I do think a (00:42:07) reasonably significant number of people (00:42:08) probably do. Who do you think struggles (00:42:10) with it more, men or women? It really (00:42:12) depends. Do you know something that one (00:42:13) of the major misnomers in love research (00:42:16) is that there is much difference that (00:42:17) there's this major difference between (00:42:18) men and women. There really isn't. There (00:42:20) really isn't. It's more about who you (00:42:22) are at your core. More about attachment (00:42:24) style, personality, your life (00:42:26) experience, your genetics, all these (00:42:28) sorts of things are much more of a (00:42:29) factor in whether or not you will be (00:42:31) comfortable with monogamy or any of (00:42:33) those aspects than whether or not you're (00:42:35) male or female. And again, you said that (00:42:36) there's not not a difference between (00:42:39) well-being and satisfaction levels (00:42:41) versus monogous and polyamorous (00:42:43) relationships. No, absolutely not. How (00:42:45) do we know this? Because we've done (00:42:46) studies on it. We've we've asked we've (00:42:48) done we use the same satisfaction scales (00:42:50) about, you know, um how satisfied are (00:42:52) you in your relationship with various (00:42:53) aspects of that relationship? And they (00:42:54) come out as being absolutely no (00:42:56) different. For what it's worth, babe, (00:42:57) I'm I'm happy with our relationship. I'm (00:43:00) more than happy being monogamous. I I (00:43:02) find it to be a much much easier life. (00:43:04) Well, the only thing polyamorous people (00:43:06) say is you have to have a cracking (00:43:07) Google calendar. Yeah. The time. Yeah. (00:43:09) Yeah. Let's talk about the first (00:43:11) thousand days. So, you really believe (00:43:14) that the first thousand days of a (00:43:15) child's life are the most critical. Yes. (00:43:17) And linked to this is the role of both (00:43:20) the mother and the father. It's long (00:43:22) been assumed that the father is surplus (00:43:26) to requirements that they're not really (00:43:27) that important. as long as they're, you (00:43:29) know, in the stereotypical context. As (00:43:31) long as they're providing for the (00:43:32) family, they don't really need to be (00:43:33) around. (00:43:35) Is that true? And what do we need to (00:43:36) know about how formative those first (00:43:38) thousand days are for a child? Okay, (00:43:40) first of all, no, it's not true. Um, h (00:43:43) it's absolutely fundamental, I think, (00:43:45) for a child to get some input from a (00:43:48) father. I'm going to define father. (00:43:51) In the west, we're a bit obsessed with (00:43:53) the term biological father. And we (00:43:54) always describe that as the real father. (00:43:56) Even if he's not around, even if that (00:43:58) child has been brought up by a (00:43:59) stepfather, an adoptive father, what we (00:44:01) call a social father, which is a (00:44:02) grandfather, an uncle, a best friend, an (00:44:04) older brother. When I say father, people (00:44:06) assume I mean biological father. I (00:44:07) don't. I mean the man or men who have (00:44:10) stepped in and done the job. That is the (00:44:12) father. So I want to make that very (00:44:13) clear. essful. We know that young people (00:44:16) who grow up without that input, the (00:44:19) risks of having negative outcomes uh is (00:44:22) much higher without having a male role (00:44:25) model or some male role models in your (00:44:27) life. We know that they are much more (00:44:29) likely to display antisocial behavior. (00:44:31) They are much more likely to turn to (00:44:33) crime. They are much more likely to have (00:44:35) addiction issues. They are much more (00:44:37) likely to have mental health issues. and (00:44:39) their outcomes in terms of relationships (00:44:41) going through their life with in other (00:44:43) aspects of their lives are much more (00:44:44) negative and there is a reason for that. (00:44:48) So (00:44:50) men have a very specific role in child (00:44:52) development and I wasn't expecting to (00:44:54) find this when I first started but I've (00:44:57) looked at fathering around the world in (00:44:59) many many different cultures and how men (00:45:01) arrive at that role is very different. (00:45:03) Um the the fathering role is much more (00:45:05) diverse than the mothering role. It's (00:45:06) partly because the mother's role is very (00:45:07) tight by biology, by pregnancy, child (00:45:10) birth, etc. Whereas men, we call it a (00:45:12) facultative role. And what that means is (00:45:13) it's much more flexible. It's much more (00:45:15) open to responding to changes in the (00:45:17) environment and adapting to them to help (00:45:18) the family survive. And we see that all (00:45:19) the way around the world. So dads do it (00:45:21) lots of different ways. It really (00:45:22) depends in your environment what the (00:45:24) major risk is. So in our environment, (00:45:26) you know, we don't really have survival (00:45:28) risks in our environment, not to the (00:45:29) extent that they do in some cultures. So (00:45:31) as a dad in in societies where survival (00:45:34) day-to-day survival is a is a problem (00:45:36) whether it's a war zone or whether there (00:45:38) are major major disease issues then a (00:45:40) dad's role there is to keep that kid (00:45:43) alive. If we look at other environments (00:45:45) where survival is reasonably secure but (00:45:47) economic survival is very on edge then (00:45:49) in those environments we tend to see (00:45:51) fathers again not particularly hands-on (00:45:52) in terms of caretaking or nurturing. (00:45:54) they are the um person in that kid's (00:45:56) life who's going to teach them the (00:45:57) skills they need to go forward and be (00:45:59) economically successful. So if you live (00:46:01) in a pastoral uh environment then they (00:46:03) will be taken into the fields and they (00:46:05) will be taught how to do that role and (00:46:07) then they will be taken to the markets (00:46:08) and they will be taught how to negotiate (00:46:09) and build the social networks they need. (00:46:11) And then in our environment where (00:46:13) economics is reasonably secure (00:46:14) comparatively survival is reasonably (00:46:17) secure comparatively then we are social (00:46:19) survival is important in our world. It (00:46:21) really is who you know. But what I found (00:46:24) regardless of how you were doing it was (00:46:25) all fathers have one major major role (00:46:28) and and it's a bit of a technical term (00:46:29) and I'll explain what it is. They (00:46:30) scaffold the child's entry into the (00:46:32) world beyond the family. And what that (00:46:34) means is they are the parent when it (00:46:37) comes to developing the skills, the (00:46:40) neural connections, the biology, the (00:46:42) physiology that enables you to leave (00:46:44) your family and go out into the world (00:46:46) and be successful, to thrive and (00:46:48) survive. And it starts when a baby is (00:46:51) born. So the attachments that a dad and (00:46:53) a mom build to that baby are just as (00:46:55) powerful as each other but they are (00:46:57) different. So a mom's attachment is (00:47:00) based upon nurture. And uh what we tend (00:47:03) to say with a mom and child attachment (00:47:04) is it's quite exclusive. So if you (00:47:06) imagine um a mother her major role with (00:47:09) that child is to nurture and protect. (00:47:11) And so when she's with that child she (00:47:14) will hold that child to her. It's very (00:47:16) inwardlooking. With dads, they do (00:47:18) nurture. Absolutely. They nurture. They (00:47:19) do all that kind of thing. But they use (00:47:21) that nurturing to build confidence in (00:47:24) that child as a secure base, which is (00:47:26) what attachment's about. And what they (00:47:27) actually do is they turn the child to (00:47:28) the world and they go, "Okay, you're (00:47:30) safe with me. I am always here. But I'm (00:47:33) going to give you a push and you're (00:47:35) going to go out into the world and (00:47:36) you're going to see what the world is (00:47:37) like. And I'm going to be the person who (00:47:38) gives you the resilience and gives you (00:47:40) the social skills and gives you what you (00:47:42) need to be able to do that. And you can (00:47:44) always come back to me when it goes (00:47:45) wrong." So what we say with a with a (00:47:46) father's attachment is it's based on (00:47:48) nurture and challenge. Mom is very (00:47:50) nurturing. Dad is stimulation. I'm going (00:47:52) to stimulate you and you're going to go (00:47:53) and do something amazing. And and that (00:47:56) is why you need fathers because those (00:47:58) outcomes we have for kids who don't have (00:48:00) an input from a father figure. The (00:48:03) reason why they struggle with antisocial (00:48:04) behavior is it's because dads are the (00:48:06) ones that underpin social behavior. (00:48:08) Pro-social behavior like helping, (00:48:10) sharing, caring, emotional regulation (00:48:12) and inhibition. You need to learn to (00:48:14) regulate your emotions and inhibit them (00:48:15) appropriately to get on in this world. (00:48:17) You can't go into school and you cannot (00:48:19) go into the workplace screaming your (00:48:20) head off when you get angry. That's not (00:48:21) how it works. We know that fathers when (00:48:23) it comes to education, both moms and (00:48:25) dads have a pretty equal input in terms (00:48:27) of academic success. But fathers have a (00:48:29) greater role in instilling appropriate (00:48:32) learning behavior, being in the (00:48:34) classroom, taking in what's going on, (00:48:36) cooperating with other people, (00:48:37) cooperating with the teacher, not (00:48:38) disturbing everybody else, that kind of (00:48:40) thing. They are the ones that underpin (00:48:42) that. How do they do that? Is it (00:48:43) chemically or is it It's several things. (00:48:46) It's partly chemical. So, we know that (00:48:49) ch one of the earliest behaviors you (00:48:51) will see a father do with a child from (00:48:52) about six months on is a thing called (00:48:53) rough and tumble play. Rough and tumble (00:48:55) play. Okay? And men seem to be drawn to (00:48:58) it. Not all men do it, and we'll talk (00:49:00) about the people who don't find it (00:49:01) comfortable, but most men when we just (00:49:02) tell them to go and do something with (00:49:03) their kid, they're not going to do some (00:49:05) coloring. They're going to take the kid (00:49:06) outside. They're going to throw it in (00:49:08) the air. They're going to chase it (00:49:09) around the garden. They're going to (00:49:10) airplane it over their head. They're (00:49:11) going to come in. They're going to (00:49:12) bounce on the sofa. They're going to do (00:49:13) a little wrestling. There's lots of (00:49:14) shrieking. There's lots of energy. And (00:49:16) we see pretty much all western fathers (00:49:19) do that. And the reason for it is (00:49:21) twofold. First of all, it's a very quick (00:49:23) way of bonding with your child. Dads (00:49:25) have to bond through interaction. They (00:49:27) don't have the head start of child's (00:49:28) birth, which is a whole tsunami of (00:49:30) bonding hormones. So, they do it through (00:49:31) interaction. And rough and double play (00:49:33) is a really timeefficient way to do it. (00:49:35) You you get a massive tidal weight of (00:49:37) bonding hormones because it's because (00:49:39) it's so physical. So you get betrayphin (00:49:41) because uh there's lots of touch, (00:49:43) there's lots of giggling. So all of (00:49:44) these things release dopamine, betray, (00:49:46) oxytocin. They bond you tightly to the (00:49:48) child you're playing with and the child (00:49:49) gets them as well. But also it's (00:49:50) starting to underpin some teaching about (00:49:53) social skills because the basis of all (00:49:55) social um behavior is reciprocity is (00:49:58) give and take. And when we play with (00:49:59) someone, it only remains fun if that (00:50:01) reciprocity is reasonably balanced. You (00:50:03) learn empathy because you've got to work (00:50:05) out, is this stuff fun for the other (00:50:07) person or are they no longer enjoying (00:50:08) this? Have I gone too far? You learn to (00:50:10) deal with challenge. Rough and tumble (00:50:11) play can be pretty extreme. It can be a (00:50:13) little bit painful. It can be a little (00:50:14) bit risky. And so you're saying to the (00:50:16) kid, assess the risk. Assess the risk. (00:50:18) Here's the challenge. Can you deal with (00:50:19) the challenge? And all of that underpins (00:50:22) that child's neural development first of (00:50:24) all, but also you're showing by example (00:50:27) social skills. I'm saying reciprocity. (00:50:28) But what's really interesting, and I (00:50:30) love this piece of research, and this (00:50:31) came out from a group in Israel headed (00:50:33) by Ruth Feldman, who is a pioneer of (00:50:35) neuroscience in terms of children and (00:50:36) their parents. she um she found that (00:50:39) dads and children have co-eolved to (00:50:41) prefer to play with each other. (00:50:44) Okay. So, when you're a parent, you will (00:50:47) get a peak in oxytocin from certain (00:50:50) behaviors you do with your child. You'll (00:50:51) always get a bit of oxytocin because (00:50:53) anything you do with them is probably (00:50:54) very nice apart from maybe the tantrums. (00:50:56) But if you're a dad, that peak in (00:50:58) oxytocin comes from playing with your (00:51:00) kid. And then when we look at kids when (00:51:03) they the peak in um oxytocin release (00:51:05) they get when they're playing with their (00:51:06) dads again isn't when daddy gives me a (00:51:08) cuddle which is nice but you know I (00:51:10) don't get a big release it's when I play (00:51:11) with daddy. So is that different to (00:51:14) women? Yes. So women get their peak in (00:51:16) activate of oxytocin released from (00:51:18) nurturing their children particularly (00:51:19) from hugging them. And kids get their (00:51:21) peak in oxytocin when they interact with (00:51:22) mom from mom's cuddles not from playing (00:51:24) with mom. So naturally kids kind of (00:51:26) gravitate towards dads when they want to (00:51:29) have fun. And dad, that's the kind of (00:51:31) thing he will choose to do with his (00:51:32) child. Something that's um physical, (00:51:35) something that's stimulatory. And that's (00:51:37) what's really interesting. And that's in (00:51:38) a way why dad's kind of got the moniker (00:51:40) of, oh, you're the fun parent. You do (00:51:41) all the fun stuff. But actually, play is (00:51:44) fundamental to a child's development. (00:51:46) Absolutely fundamental to their social (00:51:48) development and also building that (00:51:49) really critical bond with dad. If I was (00:51:51) to have a baby now, how would my body, (00:51:55) my my brain, my my body, how would it (00:51:58) change? Okay, it would change in two (00:52:01) ways. There's the biological changes you (00:52:03) would undergo. So this is something that (00:52:05) we didn't know about 20 years ago and I (00:52:07) and other colleagues around the world (00:52:09) have have looked into this and the (00:52:11) reason why we looked into it is because (00:52:12) as I said very rare to have human (00:52:15) fathering really rare 5% of mammals and (00:52:16) the way evolution works is it generally (00:52:18) doesn't cause a whole new behavior to (00:52:20) evolve without giving you some sort of (00:52:23) head start in being able to do it. And (00:52:25) so over time, in the last half a million (00:52:27) years, as fatherhood evolved, men's (00:52:29) brains change, their psychology changes, (00:52:32) their hormones change when they become (00:52:33) fathers to to give you that that prep to (00:52:36) be a parent. Um, so first of all, we see (00:52:38) hormonal changes. The the most studied (00:52:41) and I think probably the most (00:52:42) significant is the drop in testosterone (00:52:44) that occurs when you become a father. So (00:52:46) you will have already experienced a drop (00:52:47) in testosterone because you're in a (00:52:49) long-term relationship. No, no, I (00:52:51) haven't. Yes, you have. (00:52:53) So, when a man enters a long-term (00:52:55) relationship for a first for the first (00:52:56) time, he will experience a drop in (00:52:58) testosterone because testosterone is a (00:53:00) really great chemical uh if you're (00:53:02) dating because it makes you more (00:53:04) competitive and it makes you more (00:53:06) attractive if you if you're in a (00:53:07) heterosexual relationship. So, it makes (00:53:09) you more attractive. But when you start, (00:53:12) you know, living with someone or being (00:53:13) in a long-term relationship, we kind of (00:53:14) need you to shift your focus from the (00:53:15) horizon and looking for another date. (00:53:17) and we need you to focus on that that (00:53:19) one person because from an evolutionary (00:53:20) point of view that person is going to be (00:53:22) the person you have kids with and we'd (00:53:23) quite like you to stick around and look (00:53:24) after those kids. So that happens when (00:53:26) you become a father for the first time (00:53:28) it drops again and it can be up to 30%. (00:53:32) So you lose a third of your testosterone (00:53:34) and the reason for that again is we need (00:53:36) you to focus in on the family. We we (00:53:37) can't have you looking to the horizon (00:53:39) for another mate. We need to focus (00:53:41) because we know that children need input (00:53:43) from just more than just mom to survive. (00:53:45) This sounds all very monogous. I'll talk (00:53:47) about it in a minute. Okay. So, this is (00:53:50) so so you focus in on that child. (00:53:52) Testosterone is also um when it's very (00:53:55) high, it blocks the bonding hormones. (00:53:58) So, dopamine and oxytocin in particular (00:54:00) have less of an effect. So, the (00:54:03) testosterone drops also to enable you to (00:54:05) start bonding with that child because (00:54:06) you are you are behind in terms of (00:54:08) bonding with that child because mom's (00:54:10) gone through pregnancy in in most cases (00:54:12) and given birth. So, she's had a head (00:54:13) start. She's had a load of oxytocin, (00:54:15) dopamine, and beta endorphin during the (00:54:16) birth process. You haven't. So, so we (00:54:19) need to like release those hormones as (00:54:21) soon as we can. One of the ways we do (00:54:22) that is testosterone drops. So, oxytocin (00:54:24) and dopamine are more effective, which (00:54:26) explains why some fathers say that they (00:54:28) don't feel bonded to their child in the (00:54:30) early stages or before. Yeah, I'll (00:54:31) explain why that is as well in a minute. (00:54:33) So, that's oxytocin, dopamine. We also (00:54:34) know just generally from studies whether (00:54:36) men are fathers or not, men with lower (00:54:37) testosterone tend to be more motivated (00:54:39) to care for children. So even if you're (00:54:41) not a father, if we present you with a (00:54:44) crying baby, men with very high (00:54:47) testosterone, the reaction to that is (00:54:48) mainly aversive, like okay, just take it (00:54:51) away from me. And also they get quite (00:54:52) frustrated. They find it quite quite (00:54:54) difficult to deal with as a noise. Men (00:54:56) with low testosterone tend to be more (00:54:57) motivated to pick the baby up, try and (00:54:59) soo the baby and deal with it. And and (00:55:01) whilst it's a difficult noise to hear, (00:55:02) they tend not to experience negative (00:55:04) emotions in relation to it. That drop in (00:55:06) testosterone is really really important. (00:55:10) Over evolutionary time (00:55:12) we think that people were probably (00:55:14) socially monogous for a period of time (00:55:17) which matched the period of time they (00:55:18) needed to ensure that our child's going (00:55:20) to survive. So whilst in our you know in (00:55:23) our um culture it's like no you will (00:55:25) marry till you die, you will be monogous (00:55:26) till you die. In evolutionary history (00:55:28) that probably wasn't the case. Fathers (00:55:29) might have stuck around for probably at (00:55:32) least until uh childhood which is (00:55:36) between about 5 and 10. They might have (00:55:38) stayed along into into the teenage years (00:55:40) depending upon how difficult the (00:55:41) environment was. And also this doesn't (00:55:42) mean they weren't having sex somewhere (00:55:44) else. So this is social monogamy. We (00:55:47) also see changes in oxytocin rises. Uh (00:55:50) if you live with your pregnant partner, (00:55:51) it will start to rise in pregnancy as (00:55:53) well your partners. Um, and that's there (00:55:55) to make sure first of all that your bond (00:55:57) to your partner tightens because you're (00:55:59) about to introduce somebody new into (00:56:00) your relationship and it's not going to (00:56:02) be easy. So, we need that to be tight, (00:56:03) but it's also to start preparing you for (00:56:05) after birth. We know that vasop prein (00:56:08) also rises. Vasopressin is a sort of (00:56:10) form of oxytocin, but in non-human (00:56:13) mammals, it's associated with defense of (00:56:15) the nest. And we think in in male (00:56:18) humans, it's to do with protection and (00:56:20) motivation to protect that child. And (00:56:22) finally, we see an increase in a in a (00:56:24) parenting hormone known as prolactin. (00:56:26) And prolactin is only seen in males in (00:56:28) species that have investing fathers. And (00:56:30) prolactin again is a parenting hormone (00:56:31) that motivates you to care. So you go (00:56:33) through this massive change in hormones. (00:56:35) A lot of men say they don't notice the (00:56:38) drop in testosterone in terms of things (00:56:39) like strength. So I get a contact by a (00:56:41) lot of men saying, "But I I love weight (00:56:42) training. Is this going to ruin my No, (00:56:44) it's not. It doesn't do anything like (00:56:46) that. Think of the number of Olympic (00:56:47) athletes who have kids. You're fine." (00:56:48) Um, what it does do is it it it (00:56:51) increases your emotional vulnerability. (00:56:52) So quite often with fathers, you will (00:56:54) hear they're more empathetic after birth (00:56:57) and also they find it harder to deal (00:56:59) with emotionally difficult things (00:57:00) particularly like on the news. Suddenly (00:57:01) things on the news will make them cry (00:57:03) when they never cried before. Will they (00:57:04) ever get their testosterone levels back? (00:57:06) Only if you don't have contact with your (00:57:08) child. (00:57:10) So if you don't have contact with your (00:57:11) child, you don't have to co-reside with (00:57:13) your child. These studies have been done (00:57:14) across cultures including cultures where (00:57:15) co-resident doesn't occur. Um, as long (00:57:18) as you are in contact with your child, (00:57:19) no, they won't because you you are still (00:57:21) maintained in looking after that child. (00:57:23) If you lose contact with your child, (00:57:25) yes, they will go back up because the (00:57:27) evolutionary drive is to then reproduce (00:57:29) again. So, if I have a kid and then I (00:57:32) stick around and raise the kid, (00:57:35) assuming I stick around, my testosterone (00:57:37) levels will never get back to the level (00:57:39) it was before I had the kid. No, never. (00:57:41) I mean that's slightly I mean I you know (00:57:43) I'll love my future kid I'm sure I will (00:57:46) say to dads because they do worry about (00:57:47) and I understand why they worry about it (00:57:48) because they believe very much that (00:57:49) testosterone is the male hormone. It is (00:57:52) and it isn't you know women have (00:57:53) testosterone and it's it's one of the (00:57:55) sex hormones. It's not it really isn't (00:57:57) associated with things like stress. You (00:57:59) might find things like your (00:58:02) if you have a tendency to aggression, (00:58:03) you might find that drops a little bit (00:58:05) and as I say, you become more empathetic (00:58:07) and you become more emotionally (00:58:08) vulnerable, but it's really it's not (00:58:11) going to impact a huge amount (00:58:12) physiologically in you. So really don't (00:58:14) worry about it. And also you get the (00:58:16) most amazing rewarding bond with your (00:58:17) kid in return. So you drop the (00:58:18) testosterone, but you get this (00:58:20) astonishing bond. So it swings and (00:58:22) roundabouts. You said earlier that if (00:58:24) the father's not around, there's (00:58:25) implications for teenage mental health. (00:58:27) Yes. So because fathers underpin (00:58:29) resilience through starting with rough (00:58:32) and tumble play but carrying on through (00:58:33) that child's life and doing stimulatory (00:58:34) activities with that kid. They're the (00:58:36) ones that underpin mental resilience. (00:58:38) And obviously mental resilience is (00:58:39) particularly key for mental health also (00:58:42) because they underpin scaffolding the (00:58:44) child's ability to operate in the social (00:58:46) world. A lot of the disorders we see in (00:58:48) teenage um young people are associated (00:58:51) with social situations. So social (00:58:52) anxiety, eating disorders, self harm, (00:58:55) depression, loneliness, they tend to all (00:58:57) exist within the social sphere. And (00:58:59) because of that, that's why it's (00:59:00) actually the relationship you have with (00:59:01) your dad, particularly the attachment (00:59:04) relationship you have. So if it's a nice (00:59:05) secure attachment relationship, you are (00:59:07) much less likely to suffer from those (00:59:10) disorders and also particularly you know (00:59:13) how much time your dad spends with you (00:59:14) and inputs into you is important. So (00:59:16) kids are really interesting. They (00:59:18) measure their importance to their (00:59:19) parents in different ways. If you say to (00:59:22) them, "How do you know you're important (00:59:22) to your mom?" They'll say, "Well, my mom (00:59:24) does stuff for me. She makes sure I've (00:59:26) got my favorite cereal. She makes sure (00:59:28) that I get picked up from school and I (00:59:29) can have my playdates and she, you know, (00:59:31) makes sure my sports kit is washed." And (00:59:33) I mean, it's all terribly gender (00:59:34) specific. I do apologize, but this is (00:59:36) this is the data. If you say to the kid, (00:59:39) "How do you know you're important to (00:59:40) your dad? He spends time with me." And (00:59:42) we think it's probably cultural because (00:59:44) in our culture, dads are still more (00:59:46) likely to be out at work. So, the (00:59:48) precious thing you you have as a man is (00:59:50) your time. And if I give my time to you (00:59:52) as a child, particularly if I do (00:59:53) something you're interested in and I (00:59:55) accept you as an individual and say, (00:59:56) "Yeah, let's be enthusiastic about what (00:59:58) you want to do, then that is what (01:00:00) underpins how you feel, how that how (01:00:02) important that child feels, and that (01:00:03) underpins their self-esteem." Because I (01:00:05) talked about ketosis on this podcast and (01:00:07) ketones, a brand called Ketone IQ sent (01:00:10) me their little product here and it was (01:00:12) on my desk when I got to the office. I (01:00:14) picked it up. It sat on my desk for a (01:00:15) couple of weeks. And one day I tried it (01:00:18) and honestly I have not looked back ever (01:00:21) since. I now have this everywhere I go. (01:00:24) When I travel all around the world, it's (01:00:25) in my hotel room. My team will put it (01:00:27) there. 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Because of all of its AI (01:01:32) integrations, using Shopify feels a bit (01:01:35) like you've hired an entire growth team (01:01:37) from day one, taking care of writing (01:01:39) product descriptions, your website (01:01:41) design, and enhancing your products (01:01:43) images, not to mention the bits you'd (01:01:45) expect Shopify to handle, like the (01:01:47) shipping, like the taxes, like the (01:01:48) inventory. And if you're looking to get (01:01:50) your business started, go to (01:01:52) shopify.com/bartlet (01:01:54) and sign up for a $1 per month trial. (01:01:58) That's shopify.com/bartlet. (01:02:01) We talked at the top of this (01:02:02) conversation about how gender roles have (01:02:04) shifted and how more women are college (01:02:05) educated and more women are in work and (01:02:08) they're climbing the economic ladder. (01:02:10) This also means that mothers are more (01:02:12) likely to be around less in such a world (01:02:14) especially when we consider the way that (01:02:16) the offices have been designed and the (01:02:17) working week has been designed. Have you (01:02:20) thought much about the implications of (01:02:21) an absent mother? Because we talked a (01:02:23) lot about the absent father. Yeah. But (01:02:24) an absent mother or a mother who puts (01:02:26) their child into into daycare or is (01:02:28) working five five days a week. I must (01:02:30) admit I haven't because I I don't study (01:02:32) mothers. Mothers is a massive amount of (01:02:35) work done on uh and I'm kind of filling (01:02:37) the gaps in terms of fathers to be (01:02:38) absolutely honest. The roles of a mom (01:02:39) and a dad in a heterosexual relationship (01:02:41) have evolved to kind of complement each (01:02:43) other. So they don't mirror each other. (01:02:44) They don't do the same thing. Um they (01:02:46) complement each other. So what happens (01:02:48) when we take one of those away for that (01:02:50) child? There are two things to say to (01:02:52) that. First of all, in most children's (01:02:54) lives, we talk about single parent (01:02:56) families and what we're talking about is (01:02:57) a single parent raising that child. But (01:02:59) actually, if we look outside that that (01:03:01) particular diad, that particular couple, (01:03:03) and we look at who else is inputting (01:03:04) into that child's life. So quite often, (01:03:07) I study it as obviously in relation to (01:03:09) absent fathers, what we tend to find is (01:03:11) that child has other people in their (01:03:13) life who are men who input, even if the (01:03:16) mom hasn't recognized it. One of the (01:03:17) most powerful studies I read wasn't (01:03:20) saying to a mom, "Where are the father (01:03:21) figures in your child's life?" It was (01:03:23) saying to the kid, "Who are the (01:03:23) important men in your life?" And the kid (01:03:25) would go, "Oh, my football coach or my (01:03:27) math teacher or my mate John's dad or (01:03:31) they often recognize father figures. (01:03:34) They don't call them that, but they (01:03:35) recognize men in their lives who they (01:03:37) look up to, who support them, who the (01:03:39) parents or the mom doesn't even think (01:03:40) about. So that's the first thing to say. (01:03:42) Secondly, we know with gay fathers where (01:03:45) a mom isn't in a caretaking role, the (01:03:48) brain adapts. (01:03:49) Okay. So, what happens if we put um a (01:03:52) heterosexual couple in a scanner? Yeah. (01:03:54) And we say, "Look, look at look at this (01:03:57) video of your child." We see different (01:03:59) peaks in activation in the brain. So, in (01:04:01) mom, we see a peak in activation at the (01:04:04) core of the brain here. Okay? Very (01:04:06) ancient. It's partly there because (01:04:08) mothering is as old as time. So, it's in (01:04:10) the ancient unconscious part of the (01:04:11) brain. This is where nurture is, (01:04:13) attachment, risk detection, all those (01:04:15) things you need to be able to do. (01:04:17) Uh, and then we get that peak there. (01:04:19) However, if we look at dad's activation, (01:04:22) he does have some activation here. (01:04:24) Obviously, he does. He's very capable of (01:04:25) nurturing and protecting. But actually, (01:04:27) the peak in activation is in the (01:04:28) neoortex. This is this bit of the brain. (01:04:30) This is the conscious brain. It's much (01:04:32) younger. Um, and that shows you that (01:04:34) fathering is younger. It's about half a (01:04:35) million years old. And we see activation (01:04:38) here in the social part of the brain. (01:04:40) Okay. So this is the prefrontal cortex (01:04:42) which is here and the orbital frontal (01:04:43) cortex which is kind of above your eyes (01:04:45) and that's where all your social skills (01:04:46) sit your ability to do everything (01:04:48) socially. And then at the back of the (01:04:49) brain we have two areas at the back of (01:04:51) the brain which are linked to empathy (01:04:52) which is the basis of relationships and (01:04:54) mentalizing. So that's that ability to (01:04:56) know someone's intention. You need it (01:04:58) just to have a conversation but you also (01:05:00) need it uh to spot somebody who's going (01:05:02) to maybe do you bad in some way, cheat, (01:05:04) lie, whatever those sorts of things. (01:05:06) Again important in the social world and (01:05:08) his peing activations are there. Again, (01:05:10) mom does have some peaks in activ some (01:05:12) activation here, but it's not as (01:05:13) intense. And that underpins those two (01:05:16) different roles. So, dad's attachment is (01:05:18) neo. Mom's attachment is very ancient (01:05:20) and nurturing. If you have a gay primary (01:05:23) caretaking father without a mother (01:05:24) involved, what you see is you see both (01:05:27) bits light up at the same intensity. So, (01:05:29) he gets the dad activation obviously (01:05:32) being a man, but he also gets the mom's (01:05:34) activation. And what's really absolutely (01:05:36) fascinating is if we look at that brain, (01:05:39) there is a new a brand new neural (01:05:41) connection between (01:05:43) this bit of the brain here and this bit (01:05:46) of the brain here. So they can (01:05:47) communicate. So is the is a woman not (01:05:51) playing a unique role at all in raising? (01:05:54) Well, arguably neither is a man because (01:05:55) if we look in if we were to look in (01:05:57) probably uh a gay woman's brain, we'd (01:05:59) see the same thing. And it's not saying (01:06:01) that they're not paying unique roles in (01:06:03) a heterosexual relationship. They (01:06:04) absolutely do. But what it's showing (01:06:06) you, human children are incredibly (01:06:09) difficult to raise. They are pretty (01:06:12) much, apart from maybe dolphins and and (01:06:13) a bit of an ape, um the most intense kid (01:06:16) to raise because they're because they're (01:06:18) born so helpless. Okay? And the only way (01:06:21) a human baby can survive is if it gets (01:06:23) enough input. So the human brain, the (01:06:26) human parenting brain is astonishingly (01:06:29) plastic and it will adapt to make sure (01:06:31) that that child gets what it needs. And (01:06:33) so where we've got one of the adults (01:06:35) missing, mom or dad, it will adapt to (01:06:38) say, okay, the remaining adult or (01:06:40) whether even if there's two dads or two (01:06:41) moms, that primary caretaking one, their (01:06:44) brain will alter to make sure that kid (01:06:46) start gets what it needs. It kind of (01:06:47) goes to the top of what we were saying (01:06:48) about do you need dads then? Because if (01:06:49) you know, we talked about the role that (01:06:50) dads play in play, but also I've read (01:06:52) your research around the impact that a (01:06:54) father has on um a kid's ability to (01:06:58) speak. Yes. (01:07:00) is better in children who had a father (01:07:03) present. But if you could just have two (01:07:06) women doing it, doesn't that mean that (01:07:07) we don't necessarily need the father? (01:07:09) It's not that you don't necessarily need (01:07:10) the father. I mean, the same argument (01:07:11) say you don't necessarily need a mother (01:07:13) in a gay parenting relationship with the (01:07:14) fathers. What it's saying is (01:07:18) in a heterosexual relationship we get (01:07:20) this complimentarity. We can't get that (01:07:23) in a gay relationship. So what we've got (01:07:25) instead is this slice to adaptation. (01:07:27) Unfortunately, the studies haven't been (01:07:28) done sufficiently on gay parenting, (01:07:31) which is which is a massive omission. (01:07:33) I'm afraid science always starts with (01:07:35) heterosexual. Yeah. Um and narrows it (01:07:37) down. Um that we don't know exactly (01:07:40) whether for example (01:07:43) a gay parent, two male parents, maybe (01:07:45) there's a little bit missing because of (01:07:46) a lack of female input or whether with (01:07:48) two female parents is a lack of because (01:07:49) there's no male direct male input. The (01:07:51) other thing to say is around these (01:07:53) families you pro you know I can there (01:07:55) are very few gay parenting families (01:07:57) where there are no women involved at all (01:07:59) and there are very few lesbian couples (01:08:00) who have no male involvement at all. So (01:08:02) we it's a very complex mess really in (01:08:05) terms of what the inputs are. But I (01:08:07) think the the the study that discovered (01:08:09) this were just astonished at the amazing (01:08:12) plasticity of the brain that that a man (01:08:14) who did not go through pregnancy and (01:08:17) childirth and is does not have this (01:08:19) evolutionarily ancient instinct in terms (01:08:22) of motherhood could actually adopt this (01:08:25) role and we would see this activation. (01:08:27) That's in a way the biggest takehome (01:08:29) from it is that it will adapt in such a (01:08:31) powerful way to make sure that child (01:08:33) gets what it needs. So do we need (01:08:34) fathers? Yes. (01:08:36) Why? What is it that the fathers bring (01:08:38) that can't be done by some other means (01:08:40) though? Because we don't yet know first (01:08:43) of all whether these adaptations in the (01:08:45) female brain for example are enough (01:08:49) because that research hasn't been done (01:08:50) and secondly there are very few children (01:08:52) who don't have a father actually if you (01:08:55) look at their social grouping. Now it (01:08:56) might not be a father who co-resides. It (01:08:58) might not be a father who they see that (01:09:00) frequently, but it could be, you know, (01:09:02) and when we remember we're talking about (01:09:04) grandfathers, uncles, teachers, coaches, (01:09:06) whoever it might be. It might be a whole (01:09:08) team of men who step in and out at (01:09:09) different times. It's very rare that a (01:09:11) child doesn't have any male input in (01:09:14) their life. And that is what a father (01:09:17) is. It's not your biological father. (01:09:20) So, is it that we need a father figure (01:09:23) around, but we don't necessarily need a (01:09:25) father in the home? you do not have to (01:09:27) co-reside. One of the things that drives (01:09:29) me slightly around the bend is when (01:09:31) people talk about absent fathers. (01:09:34) Um sometimes the father is truly absent. (01:09:37) Absolutely. But in some cases he's not. (01:09:39) He just doesn't live there. And that's (01:09:41) what we've got to be very clear about. (01:09:42) You do not have to co-reside. And there (01:09:44) are cultures in the world where (01:09:45) co-resident is not the norm. And so it's (01:09:48) about being in your child's life. You do (01:09:51) not have to live with them. Are we (01:09:52) getting more fatherless as a western (01:09:55) society? (01:09:56) It would seem so at the moment in terms (01:09:59) of biological fathers. Yes. (01:10:00) Unfortunately, and that's one of the (01:10:02) things that we really need to to focus (01:10:04) on. I've recently become a trustee of a (01:10:07) new policy unit which is the center for (01:10:09) research into men and boys. And my role (01:10:11) there is to look at the role of fathers, (01:10:13) how we support fathers, how we support (01:10:15) boys in having male figures in their (01:10:17) lives. because we are seeing because (01:10:20) divorce has become more culturally (01:10:21) acceptable possibly because of longer (01:10:23) lifespans and relationships aren't (01:10:25) lasting as long. There's lots of reasons (01:10:26) why we are getting more children who do (01:10:29) not have fathers in their lives. It's (01:10:30) also a major issue in the US. I you know (01:10:33) I know you know Richard Reeves and I (01:10:35) work with Richard Reeves on it and that (01:10:38) is issue and that's why we have to start (01:10:40) looking in a creative way about what a (01:10:42) father is because those kids don't (01:10:44) necessarily have their biological father (01:10:46) in life but they need somebody and that (01:10:48) might be encouraging links within the (01:10:51) community. It might be helping single (01:10:53) mothers identify those male figures (01:10:55) within their environment and supporting (01:10:56) those male figures and coming forward. (01:10:58) It might be that we need more (01:10:59) organizations like Lads and Need Dads (01:11:01) which is an organization in the UK that (01:11:04) provides male father figures, mentors to (01:11:06) boys who don't have a father in their (01:11:09) life. Is there anything better than a (01:11:10) biological father? Yes, a father. There (01:11:12) is. So even if it's a sort of a (01:11:14) stepfather or if it's because you don't (01:11:16) get to become a father indeed you don't (01:11:18) get to become a mother just because you (01:11:19) happen to conceive a child. So from a (01:11:21) development perspective, it doesn't (01:11:22) matter if there's no difference in (01:11:24) biological fathers versus, you know, (01:11:27) Dave who took took care of me because (01:11:29) the changes we spoke about happen (01:11:31) whether you're biologically related to (01:11:33) that child or not because they happen (01:11:34) through interaction. So any man who (01:11:37) steps in and does the job well see the (01:11:39) hormone changes, we'll see the brain (01:11:40) changes which we we haven't spoken (01:11:42) about, um we'll see the psychological (01:11:44) changes, they will see them all because (01:11:45) they happen through interaction. So you (01:11:47) don't you're not as a biological father (01:11:49) the moment you conceive that child (01:11:51) suddenly get this mysterious ability to (01:11:52) be a father. You don't it happens (01:11:55) because you happen to be interacting and (01:11:56) live and and and inputting into that (01:11:58) child's life. So no there is no (01:12:01) hierarchy. (01:12:02) It's are you doing the job? Yes I am. (01:12:05) Are you doing it in a good and healthy (01:12:06) and positive way? Yes I am. Okay. You (01:12:08) get to be dad. So you really you're (01:12:10) making the case for father figures. (01:12:12) Yeah. in a child's life versus and and a (01:12:16) and a child growing up without a father (01:12:18) figure at all, yes, is going to have (01:12:21) worse outcomes. There is a risk. They (01:12:23) won't necessarily, but the statistics (01:12:24) are quite powerful in terms of those (01:12:26) outcomes. There was a study done (01:12:27) recently in the UK by the Center for (01:12:29) Justice called Lost Boys and that was (01:12:32) looking at and and one aspect of that (01:12:33) was looking at boys and their outcomes (01:12:35) if they don't have a father figure and (01:12:37) it is quite powerful in terms of the (01:12:39) increased risk of having negative (01:12:41) outcomes. So if you're in a lesbian (01:12:43) relationship (01:12:45) and you're so two women, (01:12:48) are you saying that you really (01:12:53) should make sure that the child is (01:12:56) exposed to a father figure? Yeah, I (01:12:58) would say that. I would say that. I (01:13:00) mean, some people I get attacked for (01:13:01) saying things like that and I'm not (01:13:03) trying to say there are gender roles or (01:13:04) any of those sorts of things, but we h (01:13:06) children have evolved. The reason why (01:13:08) human fatherhood evolved is because (01:13:09) children evolved to be brought up by a (01:13:11) group of people. And part of that group (01:13:13) of people was a father figure. Now, as (01:13:16) we see from cultures around the world, (01:13:17) it does not have to be the biological (01:13:18) father, but they have a father figure or (01:13:21) a team of father figures. It doesn't (01:13:23) have to be one person. It could be (01:13:24) several people. And does that go the (01:13:25) other way? If you're in if two men (01:13:27) married, I would always advise that that (01:13:29) that's how children to have those two (01:13:31) inputs. So, find those women in your (01:13:33) life and and ask them to step in and do (01:13:36) that. And and another anomaly that we (01:13:37) hear a lot is that it's particularly (01:13:39) important for boys. Actually, (01:13:42) it is critical for boys, but arguably (01:13:46) it's kind of touch and go as whether (01:13:47) it's more critical for girls. Um the (01:13:49) data coming out about (01:13:52) daughters and the impact that fathers (01:13:54) have on daughters is pretty powerful (01:13:56) stuff. And so it's it's not just that we (01:13:59) need these father figures so boys know (01:14:01) how to grow up to be, you know, positive (01:14:04) masculine figures, to be men, whatever (01:14:06) it might be. It's also really critical (01:14:09) for girls that they have a father figure (01:14:10) around. What's the the data coming out (01:14:12) regarding the dad daughter bond? So what (01:14:15) we're finding is um daughters who grow (01:14:18) up with uh a secure attachment to their (01:14:20) father um they have increased abilities (01:14:24) in or increased success in terms of (01:14:27) academics in terms of education. They (01:14:29) have increased career success. They tend (01:14:31) to have much better me uh mental health. (01:14:34) They tend to be much better at (01:14:36) relationships. They tend to have less (01:14:38) risky particularly sexual relationships. (01:14:40) And they have just better well-being (01:14:42) scores. And they are much more likely as (01:14:44) I said to have stable good relationships (01:14:46) in their in their older life in their (01:14:48) adult life. When you think about society (01:14:50) and how we're forming our relationships, (01:14:52) especially around child rearing. Yes. (01:14:54) What are we increasingly getting wrong (01:14:56) here? I spoke to Erica Commisser. And (01:15:00) she's very passionate about the (01:15:03) detrimental impact of daycare, right? (01:15:06) because she feels that the mother's (01:15:10) plays a critical role in those first two (01:15:11) years and then the father plays a (01:15:13) critical role beyond from about two (01:15:14) years onwards when the kid starts to get (01:15:16) into that play phase. I would argue with (01:15:18) her on that point but okay which point (01:15:19) would you argue on the second point? (01:15:21) Yeah, that is critical from the moment (01:15:22) that child is born. Um and I I get quite (01:15:25) upset when I get father s I met a father (01:15:27) the other day at an event. He I think (01:15:29) his baby was six months old and he was a (01:15:32) he was a a dad worker this guy. He (01:15:34) worked with dads. He was a he was a (01:15:36) community worker who worked with with (01:15:37) dads with older kids. He said, "Oh, I've (01:15:39) had my I was like, "Congratulations." He (01:15:40) went, "Yeah, but you know, I know I'm (01:15:42) not particularly important until, you (01:15:43) know, until baby's like, you know, at (01:15:45) least 18 months, two years." So, I'm (01:15:46) just changing nappies, but I know that (01:15:47) I'm not I'm not really doing much. And I (01:15:49) was just like, "Oh my god, I literally (01:15:51) cannot believe this man is saying this, (01:15:52) bearing in mind what he does for a (01:15:53) living." I was like, "You are absolutely (01:15:54) critical. From the moment that baby is (01:15:56) born, you are critical." Why? Because (01:15:58) the baby's brain is growing. babies are (01:16:01) b so human babies are born months before (01:16:03) they should be and the reason for that (01:16:06) is because two anatomical anomalies we (01:16:08) are bipedal and we have an enormous (01:16:10) brain at full size our brain is six (01:16:12) times bigger than it should be for a (01:16:13) mammal of our body weight it's highly (01:16:15) encphilized so enphilization is all this (01:16:17) folded and folded and folded so it's (01:16:19) folded like this because we've got a ram (01:16:20) it into our skull if you look at the (01:16:22) brain of a mouse it's smooth so when we (01:16:24) became bipeedal about fully bipedal (01:16:26) about sort of 1.8 8 million years ago. (01:16:28) Bipedal meaning two legs. If you look at (01:16:30) at something that walks on four legs, (01:16:32) like an ape, a chimp, who's our close, (01:16:34) their their legs are quite wide apart, (01:16:35) so their birth canal is really broad. (01:16:37) Um, ours is really narrow because we've (01:16:40) had to come in like this to to maintain (01:16:41) being able to stand upright. So, if we (01:16:43) tried to birth our babies when their (01:16:44) brains were nearly fully grown, like (01:16:46) happens in other apes, mom would die, (01:16:48) baby would die, and our species would (01:16:49) have died out a very long time ago. So, (01:16:51) about 1.8 8 million years ago, we we (01:16:53) reached a threshold where the brain had (01:16:56) to do some growing after we were born. (01:16:58) And the way that we dealt with that was (01:17:00) we birthed our babies early. We selected (01:17:01) to birth our babies early. And that's (01:17:03) why they're so completely helpless. (01:17:05) Because if you look at a chimp baby, a (01:17:07) chimp baby's pretty mobile just after (01:17:09) it's born. It's got pretty good motor (01:17:10) function. It can hold on to stuff. It (01:17:12) can do various things. Can't feed (01:17:13) itself, but it can. Um whereas human (01:17:16) babies, they can't do anything for (01:17:18) themselves. They literally can't. They (01:17:20) can't focus. They can't hold their head (01:17:21) up. They can't move. They can't (01:17:23) coordinate their limbs. They can't clean (01:17:25) themselves. They can't do anything. And (01:17:27) that's because they're born far too (01:17:28) early. They should be in months longer (01:17:30) essentially. So, we have this period of (01:17:32) rapid brain growth after we're born. And (01:17:34) because the main bit of the brain that's (01:17:36) growing at this point is this massive (01:17:38) preffrontal cortex, which is the social (01:17:40) bit. Um, the environment in which you (01:17:43) grow up is critical. And who is really (01:17:46) important in the social bit? The dad. So (01:17:48) from the moment your baby is born and (01:17:50) this is growing, dad needs to be having (01:17:53) an input because this is where it's (01:17:55) growing. Mom is also obviously vital, (01:17:57) but we have to have both parents (01:17:59) involved or you have to have that input (01:18:00) at that point. So these dads who believe (01:18:02) or people who believe that dad's only (01:18:03) important after two years, I'm I'm (01:18:04) sorry, you have a fundamental (01:18:05) misunderstanding of how the brain (01:18:07) develops and of child development (01:18:08) because you need to start teaching that (01:18:12) child by inputting into that child by by (01:18:15) giving that sensory input in particular. (01:18:17) Human babies need a lot of touch. They (01:18:18) need a lot of smell. They need a lot of (01:18:20) all that kind of thing. You need to be (01:18:21) doing that as early as possible because (01:18:22) this is growing from the moment it comes (01:18:24) out. Is it fair to say that in that 0ero (01:18:27) to2 phase, mothers are more important? (01:18:30) No, because they do different things. (01:18:32) They do different things. Mothers tend (01:18:34) to be more involved partly because of um (01:18:39) the fact that from a biological point of (01:18:41) view, women give birth. Um if you're (01:18:44) breastfeeding, they're the only ones who (01:18:45) can do that. So we are tied in terms of (01:18:48) um having to do that. The other thing I (01:18:49) would say is also giving birth is a (01:18:51) really really tricky thing to do and (01:18:53) it's physically and emotionally utterly (01:18:55) draining. So you need a period of (01:18:57) recovery um and therefore you you are (01:19:00) the one who's basically at home (01:19:01) particester (01:19:05) context a baby from the moment it's born (01:19:07) generally in some cultures will be cared (01:19:08) for by both mom and dad. It's only (01:19:10) because we have this capitalist system (01:19:12) where someone's got to go and earn some (01:19:14) money that dads don't. So I wouldn't (01:19:15) necessarily argue moms are more (01:19:16) important. They are in a position from a (01:19:18) biological point of view that they're (01:19:19) going to be there. They are just going (01:19:20) to be there. And in our system that (01:19:22) means somebody else it doesn't have to (01:19:23) be there and that's dad and he'll go and (01:19:24) earn the money to support the family. (01:19:26) But you they need the input from both. (01:19:29) Is it fair to say then that the primary (01:19:30) caregiver is the most important? And (01:19:33) what I mean by that is the baby's going (01:19:34) to form strongest attachment to the (01:19:36) person taking most care of it and (01:19:38) therefore its attachment style will be (01:19:40) shaped by the relationship to that (01:19:42) primary caregiver. It's really tricky to (01:19:44) say because yes, primary caregivers are (01:19:46) really important in terms of being most (01:19:48) of the environment of development in (01:19:49) those early days, particularly if this (01:19:50) what we call I don't really like calling (01:19:52) them secondary care, but the other (01:19:53) parent is out and about and therefore (01:19:55) not present. The environment in which a (01:19:57) baby grows isn't just about who's (01:20:00) caretaking them, who's giving them a (01:20:01) hug. One of the things I really always (01:20:03) talk to parents to be about is your (01:20:06) relationship builds that environment as (01:20:08) well. So parents are actually babies are (01:20:09) also actually taking on board the (01:20:11) dynamics between their parents. (01:20:14) And one of the things that I always um (01:20:16) try to get into anti courses is (01:20:18) preparing the parenting relationship (01:20:20) because actually you need to build an (01:20:22) environment which is (01:20:24) as calm and as reciprocal and as safe as (01:20:28) you can do for that child. And that (01:20:30) means for example before you have a baby (01:20:31) learning good conflict management style. (01:20:33) You're going to have an argument. Okay? (01:20:35) It's not about having an argument. It's (01:20:36) about the reconciliation of that (01:20:38) argument. It's about the resolution of (01:20:39) that argument. So, it's about that. It's (01:20:41) about understanding difference. You're (01:20:42) going to parent in different ways. That (01:20:43) can be really challenging to some (01:20:45) couples. They find it very difficult. (01:20:46) So, you prepare them for that. So, the (01:20:48) environment is not just the primary (01:20:49) caretaker. And that's what's fascinating (01:20:51) about humans is human babies is it's a (01:20:54) nap saying, it's a true saying are (01:20:56) raised by a village. So, the environment (01:20:58) of development isn't just the primary (01:20:59) caretaken parent. It's everybody who's (01:21:02) around that child as well. And in our in (01:21:04) our world that might be family, that (01:21:05) might be friends where we live greater (01:21:07) distances from our family. So sometimes (01:21:09) that's more professionals that have an (01:21:11) input into that child's life. I guess (01:21:12) I'm trying to figure out what's optimal (01:21:13) in my relationship cuz I'm probably (01:21:15) about to head into parenthood. Yeah. And (01:21:17) I'm trying to understand, you know, I'm (01:21:19) trying to understand how what I should (01:21:20) configure my situation. Yes. In those (01:21:23) early years um with my partner and me, (01:21:27) we both work. Um my job is requires me (01:21:31) to fly a little bit more than hers. um (01:21:33) but just just because that's the way (01:21:34) that I've chosen my my career to be. She (01:21:37) spends more time at home but still very (01:21:39) very busy, still flying around the world (01:21:40) doing her own thing. So I'm thinking (01:21:41) when that baby arrives, what should we (01:21:43) based on everything you know about (01:21:45) humans and human history and the human (01:21:46) brain and everything that's (01:21:47) interconnected? What's the optimal (01:21:50) optimal scenario for me and my partner? (01:21:52) Do you know something? It's really hard (01:21:53) because what I always say to parents (01:21:54) because parents are really good at (01:21:55) beating themselves up is happy parents (01:21:58) make happy babies. So, first of all, you (01:22:01) have to do what works for you and (01:22:02) everybody's circumstances are different. (01:22:03) And there are needs that everybody's (01:22:05) going to have. So, yes, your baby has (01:22:07) needs in terms of nurturance, in terms (01:22:09) of support, in terms of building (01:22:10) attachments, but your baby also needs a (01:22:13) roof over their head, and they need food (01:22:14) on the table, and they need all that, (01:22:15) and they need whoever's caring for them (01:22:17) to be healthy. So, it really depends (01:22:19) upon what works for you. In an ideal (01:22:20) world, somebody asked me the other day, (01:22:22) because at the moment in the UK, we're (01:22:23) having a lot of campaigns about (01:22:25) paternity leave. Um, in the UK at the (01:22:27) moment you can have two weeks, which is (01:22:29) frankly laughable. Um, and the dad can (01:22:31) have two weeks. The dad can have two (01:22:33) weeks. Not if you're self-employed, but (01:22:34) if you're employed, um, if you're (01:22:36) self-employed, you're kind of on your (01:22:37) own. We're trying to push the government (01:22:39) to take it to six weeks, which isn't our (01:22:41) ideal, but it's how far we think we (01:22:43) might be able to push them. Somebody (01:22:44) asked me the other day, what would be (01:22:45) the ideal for a dad? I'm afraid I (01:22:48) started at 6 months. Please, that would (01:22:51) be lovely. In places like Sweden, the (01:22:53) dad gets a year. Um because babies (01:22:58) develop with different inputs from (01:23:00) different people. I know you're in a (01:23:01) heterosexual couple. So he your baby (01:23:03) will need your dad's input and mom's (01:23:05) input and they will need those in every (01:23:07) whatever configuration works for you. So (01:23:09) it might be that at some period (01:23:11) particularly after child birth and (01:23:12) stuff, your partner is going to have to (01:23:14) have time off. She is not going to, you (01:23:16) know, it's very hard to race back to (01:23:17) work after you've had a baby. Some women (01:23:19) manage it. I think they're astonishing. (01:23:21) I certainly couldn't have done it. So (01:23:23) that's fine. You go do that. but that (01:23:25) she's going to need a period of time. (01:23:26) But then are you in a situation where (01:23:28) you can work a little bit flexibly? So (01:23:29) is there is there a point where you can (01:23:31) say okay you go and do some work and (01:23:33) I'll take the baby for a bit and you (01:23:34) switch that way. Now obviously if the (01:23:36) mom is breastfeeding it's harder because (01:23:38) she is tied more to the baby. You can (01:23:40) express milk as much as you like but (01:23:41) it's quite difficult as a breastfeeding (01:23:42) mother to go off on a work trip for a (01:23:44) week. So so the first point there is (01:23:46) really that she's probably going to need (01:23:47) to take some time. She is going to need (01:23:49) to take some time unless she is in a (01:23:51) position where she really thinks that (01:23:53) she is going to be capable of physically (01:23:55) and psychologically going back to work. (01:23:57) I've met women who do it, but it's (01:23:58) really hard. Now, particularly when in (01:24:01) those first early weeks, actually, she's (01:24:03) going to need you or she's going to need (01:24:05) someone to help her. My husband is (01:24:06) self-employed. Um, my husband actually (01:24:09) only managed to have two days of (01:24:11) paternity leave before he had to go back (01:24:12) to work. So, my wonderful mom stepped (01:24:14) in. But, she's going to need somebody (01:24:15) there. In an ideal world, as long as you (01:24:17) were happy to do that, that would be you (01:24:19) because your baby would really benefit (01:24:21) from that. And then from there, you have (01:24:23) to take it the way it works for you in (01:24:24) terms of your career because whoever (01:24:27) looks after that baby, it doesn't have (01:24:28) to be mom or or dad. It can be a mixture (01:24:30) of both. But but I'm able to make (01:24:32) concessions. Maybe I'm I'm in a (01:24:33) privileged position where I can make I (01:24:35) can kind of design my life a little (01:24:37) Well, from a from an ideal point of view (01:24:39) then you will at that point try and be (01:24:41) with your baby as much as you can and do (01:24:43) that and do as many of the tasks with (01:24:45) your baby you can because actually from (01:24:46) your point of view as a man men the (01:24:49) psychological changes that a man goes (01:24:50) through when he becomes a father it's (01:24:51) known as the transition to parenthood in (01:24:54) most men who work it takes two years and (01:24:57) one of the reasons it takes two years (01:24:58) whereas in a mother it takes about nine (01:25:00) months is because one of the factors in (01:25:03) how quickly you transition to adopting (01:25:05) that identity And how comfortable you (01:25:07) feel with that identity is down to (01:25:08) competency. How competent do you feel as (01:25:11) a parent? Now many western dads, they (01:25:13) don't get the opportunity to reach (01:25:15) competency very quickly because they (01:25:16) have to go to work. So they don't get to (01:25:18) care for their baby. And that's one of (01:25:20) the things we know that men who get that (01:25:21) chance transition to parenthood much (01:25:23) quicker because they reach competency (01:25:24) quicker. They absorb the identity of (01:25:26) being a dad quicker and that is better (01:25:28) for them. This transition to parenthood, (01:25:30) is that a biological thing? It's it's (01:25:32) underpinned by the biology by the by the (01:25:34) um brain changes and hormone changes (01:25:36) you're going to undergo. But it's a (01:25:38) psychological state. So it's about (01:25:40) configuring your identity and absorbing (01:25:43) that particular new aspect of your (01:25:45) identity into who into your sense of (01:25:47) being and also feeling comfortable with (01:25:50) that. We know men who struggle with that (01:25:52) transition are much more likely to (01:25:54) suffer from postnatal depression for (01:25:55) example. And postnatal depression has a (01:25:57) fundamental impact not only on your (01:25:59) partner but also on your child. So, we (01:26:02) want to be protective against that. So, (01:26:04) she needs some time. Um, she's going to (01:26:06) need me for supportive reasons in those (01:26:08) early weeks. And then the more time I (01:26:11) can spend with my child, the more I'm (01:26:12) going to psychologically adjust to and (01:26:14) the more and the quicker you're going to (01:26:15) build your bond because as I said (01:26:17) earlier, you build your bond through (01:26:18) interaction (01:26:20) and your your partner's going to have a (01:26:21) head start. She just is because of (01:26:23) pregnancy and ch and if she's (01:26:24) breastfeeding as well, breastfeeding is (01:26:25) really good for releasing oxytocin. You (01:26:27) have to do it through interaction. And (01:26:28) in those early weeks with a baby, (01:26:30) they're very dependent. And particularly (01:26:32) if your partner is breastfeeding, (01:26:33) they're very mom focused because she is (01:26:34) the source of food. And newborn babies (01:26:37) feed for ages. So a lot of men say to (01:26:39) me, I want to build a relationship, but (01:26:41) I literally cannot find an end. So what (01:26:43) we say is make something special. So (01:26:44) make something that's yours. It could be (01:26:46) bath time. It could be reading your baby (01:26:48) a book. It's never too early to begin (01:26:50) reading your baby a book. Or a really (01:26:51) good one is baby massage. Baby massage (01:26:54) is great because touch is is the biggest (01:26:57) releaser of bonding hormones there are. (01:26:59) If you massage your baby, your baby's (01:27:01) getting all those lovely hormones and so (01:27:02) are you. So, you're building that bond (01:27:03) between you. You're close enough that so (01:27:05) your baby's getting sensory input, (01:27:07) particularly sense of smell. So, baby's (01:27:09) vision is not great when they're born, (01:27:10) but their sense of smell is brilliant (01:27:12) because they're little mammals. So, (01:27:13) they're starting to really get your (01:27:14) smell and that's going to help them (01:27:15) attach to you. We also know baby massage (01:27:17) is one of the only really good (01:27:19) interventions that prevents postnatal (01:27:21) depression in men. So, I love that. I (01:27:24) just had this little flash in my head of (01:27:26) all the babies that just got a massage (01:27:28) because you said that. Yeah. And they're (01:27:29) all blissed out. I mean, there's some (01:27:31) brilliant videos on YouTube. Oh, if you (01:27:33) want to learn, you don't have to go to a (01:27:34) class. Watch. There's wonderful videos (01:27:36) of baby massage and whole classes of men (01:27:38) massaging babies. I mean, it's (01:27:39) brilliant. So, you also want to be there (01:27:41) because you need to build that bond. And (01:27:42) the only way you're going to do that is (01:27:43) interaction. And so, and as your baby (01:27:45) develops, that interaction becomes (01:27:47) easier because the baby will start (01:27:48) babbling. They'll start smiling. in (01:27:50) about six to eight weeks they'll start (01:27:51) smiling and they'll start smiling at (01:27:52) you. Um and that's just you know that's (01:27:54) you can forgive them anything when they (01:27:56) do that. Um and then they'll start you (01:27:58) know really reacting when you come in (01:28:00) being pleased to see you then they'll (01:28:01) start giggling and then at about 6 (01:28:03) months if you are a rough and tumble dad (01:28:05) you can start doing very gentle rough (01:28:06) and tumble play with them and and you (01:28:08) can just take it from there. The (01:28:09) interaction grows more and more and (01:28:10) more. One of the things we have to (01:28:12) prepare men for which I do a lot when I (01:28:14) work with men uh during pregnancy is the (01:28:17) delay in bonding. So, we have this idea (01:28:19) that baby's going to come out and we're (01:28:21) going to feel a flood of love and it's (01:28:23) going to be it's going to be like, you (01:28:24) know, shining, amazing, wonderful. That (01:28:27) doesn't happen for women a lot of the (01:28:29) time, but men find it very difficult (01:28:31) because because they grow their bond (01:28:33) through interaction. When the baby comes (01:28:35) out, they they tend to have a (01:28:36) recognition of connection. It's like, (01:28:37) yes, that's my baby. That's my genetic (01:28:39) baby. It's genetically related to me. I (01:28:41) am a father. I will look after it. But (01:28:43) it's very conscious. When I talk to my (01:28:45) dads quite often when I visit them at (01:28:46) two weeks, a lot of them are worrying (01:28:47) about the bond because they're not (01:28:49) feeling how they thought they would (01:28:50) feel. They're looking at their partner (01:28:53) who's had a head start and thinking, (01:28:55) "Well, she's the gold standard of (01:28:56) bonding. She's amazing at it. I'm (01:28:58) failing. My baby doesn't like me. I'm (01:29:00) rubbish at this." And that's not good (01:29:02) for their mental health. And what they (01:29:03) tend to do is withdraw from the baby, (01:29:04) which is the worst thing you can do. But (01:29:06) then when I speak to them when at six (01:29:08) months with the baby, they all say, "I (01:29:11) love my baby deeply." and it's (01:29:13) categorically different to how I felt at (01:29:14) the start and that's because they've had (01:29:16) to interact for that time to build that (01:29:18) bond. Is it fair to say that the woman's (01:29:20) bond comes more hormonally and the (01:29:23) father's reaction comes more from (01:29:25) interaction? Yeah, because you will get (01:29:27) your hormones from your interaction. (01:29:29) Whereas she has got her hormones mostly (01:29:32) uh at the start from being pregnant and (01:29:34) giving birth and breastfeeding. And (01:29:35) breastfeeding. So she's getting lots of (01:29:37) physiologically based hormones and she (01:29:39) will also get hormones from interaction. (01:29:40) Obviously she will, but she's ahead of (01:29:42) you. You're going to have to massage (01:29:43) that baby to go get You are really going (01:29:44) to have to massage that baby or play (01:29:45) with them. I guess that's the other (01:29:46) thing you said. Yeah. You mentioned (01:29:48) something before we started recording (01:29:49) which was curious to me and I've never (01:29:50) heard of before, which is you mentioned (01:29:52) um love drugs. Yes. I've never heard of (01:29:55) that before. Okay. I mean, what's that (01:29:56) like MDMA or something? Yes. So, we kind (01:29:59) of probably know just about enough about (01:30:01) the neuroscience of love now, (01:30:02) particularly the neurochemicals which (01:30:04) underpin it, that should we wish to, we (01:30:07) could finally produce the elixir of (01:30:09) love. So, since we've written things (01:30:11) down, we have been fascinated with (01:30:13) finding the elixir of love. There's (01:30:14) loads of ancient texts about potions (01:30:16) that will make you fall in love. It's (01:30:18) something that as humans, we've always (01:30:20) wanted and it's partly because love is (01:30:23) unpredictable and uncontrollable and (01:30:25) humans really can't deal with that. We (01:30:28) we like to know what is going to happen (01:30:30) and we like to be able to control it as (01:30:32) far as we can. So, wouldn't it be great (01:30:34) if you could pop a pill or drink (01:30:36) something which meant that when you went (01:30:38) out on a Friday night, you were really (01:30:40) good at either being like the the bell (01:30:43) of the ball and attracting people or you (01:30:45) could somehow get to be more attractive (01:30:46) to people or if you were in or you could (01:30:48) make someone fall in love with you or if (01:30:50) you're in a long-term relationship with (01:30:51) a struggling there was some pill that (01:30:53) would help that long-term relationship. (01:30:55) And we are kind of at that stage now (01:30:57) with the neuroscience where that would (01:30:58) potentially be possible. And there are (01:31:00) certainly research groups who are (01:31:02) looking into what chemicals are already (01:31:04) out there which kind of mimic that (01:31:07) neurochemistry. Now there are two big (01:31:10) ones that we already have. The first is (01:31:12) oxytocin. Of course oxytocin is (01:31:13) synthesized. We use it in child birth. (01:31:15) It induces child birth. Um, and in (01:31:18) studies where we wanted to work out the (01:31:19) impact of oxytocin on social behavior in (01:31:21) humans in labs, we squirt it up people's (01:31:24) noses. You can squirt it up people's (01:31:26) noses and see what oxytocin and what it (01:31:28) does if you want to know in most people (01:31:29) is it makes them more empathetic. It (01:31:31) makes them more open to chatting to (01:31:32) people. It makes them more sociable. It (01:31:34) makes them more positive about the (01:31:35) people around them from a social (01:31:36) context. So brilliant. So one of the (01:31:39) possibilities is you produce synthetic (01:31:42) oxytocin and you sell it to people. And (01:31:43) in fact, a few years ago, and I think (01:31:45) they've taken it down now, there was a (01:31:47) drug on Amazon and eBay called Oxy Love. (01:31:50) It's a little thing like a like an eye (01:31:53) drop thing. What it would do if you (01:31:54) squirted up your nose is hopefully it (01:31:58) would do what oxytocin does in the (01:32:00) normal biological context. It would (01:32:01) quiet your amydala. It would make you (01:32:03) more confident. Uh it would make you (01:32:05) feel more open to starting (01:32:06) relationships. You'd be better at (01:32:07) chatting to people. So, it's it's kind (01:32:09) of like, you know, the you know, a (01:32:11) couple of glasses of wine before you go (01:32:12) out. makes you feel a little bit more (01:32:13) confident. It would be a little bit like (01:32:15) that. And that's one of the things (01:32:16) they're looking into. The issue with it (01:32:19) is that you cannot guarantee the outcome (01:32:22) of using it. So what has been found is (01:32:24) in the vast majority of people it does (01:32:26) what it should. But there is a (01:32:28) significant minority of people where it (01:32:31) does exactly the opposite and it (01:32:33) actually increases e basically what we (01:32:36) call ethnosentrism, racism, bigotry. (01:32:38) Because what happens is they become more (01:32:40) tightly bonded to people they think are (01:32:41) in their ingroup. But if they perceive (01:32:44) you to be in their out group, they (01:32:46) become more racist. So it makes you (01:32:48) identify more with what you perceive to (01:32:50) be your ingroup. Now until you can iron (01:32:52) that out, that is not a drug you can (01:32:53) release onto the market because that is (01:32:55) not something you want to happen. (01:32:57) investigations seem to have shown that (01:32:58) it's something to do with genetics that (01:33:00) some people's oxytocin receptor gene is (01:33:02) slightly different and it's those people (01:33:05) who will get the um ethnosentrism result (01:33:07) rather than the socially confident (01:33:09) result. So that's a problem and you (01:33:11) can't go any further with oxytocin until (01:33:14) you are now that particular problem. The (01:33:16) second one which is more encouraging (01:33:18) from a from a scientific point of view (01:33:20) is MDMA, ecstasy. And for many years, (01:33:23) people have, you know, anecdotally (01:33:25) reported who use ecstasy recreationally (01:33:26) that it makes you feel overwhelming (01:33:28) sensations of love. It makes you feel (01:33:29) very bonded to everybody you're with. We (01:33:32) know from from lab studies that people (01:33:33) who take ecstasy on a regular basis (01:33:34) actually become more empathetic over (01:33:36) time. It actually seems to permanently (01:33:38) alter something. So, it seems to be (01:33:40) possibly something a bit like beach (01:33:41) endorphin, which it underpins long-term (01:33:43) love. Great. So they're engineering MDMA (01:33:46) at the moment to try and find out what (01:33:49) the dosage should be and how we could (01:33:50) give it to people. And it's being used (01:33:52) in marriage therapy in the US at the (01:33:53) moment as a trial to see if it can (01:33:55) assist in marriage therapy because a lot (01:33:57) of people who go to marriage therapy are (01:33:58) very entrenched in their position. (01:34:00) They've lost empathy. They've lost the (01:34:01) ability to see the other point of view. (01:34:03) And so if you micro dose ecstasy, which (01:34:05) I don't suggest anybody does without (01:34:06) clinical support, you go into the (01:34:08) session, it opens up your empathy and (01:34:10) you make progress because of it. And (01:34:11) there's been reasonably good results (01:34:13) from marriage therapy in a clinical (01:34:15) setting. The issue with MDMA isn't that (01:34:18) it has different outcomes for people to (01:34:20) be honest. Some people it works on some (01:34:21) people it just doesn't. So you could (01:34:22) take it for that reason and it just (01:34:24) wouldn't do what it's supposed to do. (01:34:25) Fine. The issue with MDMA is more around (01:34:28) ethics (01:34:30) because MDMA is a powerful drug and we (01:34:34) don't know yet what its long-term (01:34:36) consequences would be. For example, if (01:34:37) you did take it for many, many years. (01:34:39) The second thing we don't really know is (01:34:41) what happens if you stop. So let's say (01:34:43) you started a relationship taking MDMA. (01:34:46) Um first ethical question, should you (01:34:48) tell the person you're in the (01:34:49) relationship with? Secondly, what (01:34:51) happens if you stop? You get to the (01:34:52) point where for whatever reason you (01:34:53) decide to stop. Is that love going to go (01:34:56) away? And again, if you haven't told the (01:34:58) person, you're kind of, if it does go (01:35:00) away, mcking around with their life (01:35:01) without them actually realizing that (01:35:03) that relationship was based upon an (01:35:04) artificial stimulant. essentially we (01:35:07) have anecdotal um we don't actually know (01:35:09) whether it would stop because we haven't (01:35:10) done long-term enough studies (01:35:12) anecdotally from the recreational (01:35:14) community there have been stories about (01:35:16) people who have started relationships (01:35:18) whilst clubbing uh taking ecstasy (01:35:21) particularly one guy who um used to go (01:35:23) back to his hometown every weekend take (01:35:25) ecstasy go clubbing met a girl but used (01:35:27) to go away to work during the week so (01:35:30) every time he saw his girlfriend in the (01:35:32) first few months it was at the weekend (01:35:33) they were both he he was on she wasn't (01:35:35) and he fell fell in love with her and (01:35:36) this was wonderful and they carried on (01:35:38) and eventually they decided that (01:35:39) actually no we need to stop this long (01:35:41) distance thing she needs to move and and (01:35:43) come with me we think this has got a (01:35:45) future she does that trouble is during (01:35:47) the week he's not allowed on ecstasy and (01:35:49) quite quickly he realizes he doesn't (01:35:52) love her now he has uplifted you know (01:35:54) upheaval of her whole life now he didn't (01:35:57) do that on purpose he did not know that (01:35:59) that was what the impact would be but if (01:36:00) that's the impact of a love drug we have (01:36:02) a problem what do you do in (01:36:04) relationships with power imbalances is (01:36:06) what if you're in an abusive (01:36:07) relationship and somebody gives it you (01:36:09) without you knowing and keeps you in (01:36:11) that relationship because of it. So (01:36:13) there are lots of ethical questions. I (01:36:14) think the issue with love drugs is they (01:36:18) will probably come because they will be (01:36:21) hugely commercially successful if they (01:36:24) if they get a commercial license. When I (01:36:26) do talks and I get to this bit before (01:36:28) I've even mentioned what I I ask people (01:36:29) to raise their hand and say if a drug (01:36:32) could do this would you take it? 50% of (01:36:34) the audience raise their hand and say (01:36:36) yes I would. So then you tell them what (01:36:37) all the problems are and you tell them (01:36:39) what the ethics might be and at the end (01:36:40) I say again would you take it at least (01:36:42) sell 20% of the audience would. Now (01:36:45) because love and dating is such a (01:36:47) multi-billion dollar industry (01:36:50) if we get to the point where this can be (01:36:52) commercially produced someone is going (01:36:54) to make a lot of money and that's why I (01:36:56) think it's probably on the horizon (01:36:57) unless the rules are so strict that it's (01:37:00) only in clinical settings and even then (01:37:01) people get around rules. So that's the (01:37:03) issue with love drugs. Um the other one (01:37:07) is the SSRIs which are depress for (01:37:09) depression. People who are on SSRIs (01:37:12) realize that they um they reduce your (01:37:14) emotional abilities. They reduce your (01:37:16) libido. They reduce sensations of love. (01:37:18) And so it has been suggested again that (01:37:20) SSRIs are engineered in some way to help (01:37:22) people deal with love trauma. So people (01:37:24) who have experienced very bad (01:37:26) relationships and not that you can (01:37:27) forget it. Do you remember the filter (01:37:29) eternal sunshine? I didn't say that. (01:37:31) Right. Okay. It's about a guy who wants (01:37:33) to wipe his brain in terms of a really (01:37:36) bad relationship. And that's kind of (01:37:37) what suggested this could do. SSRIs (01:37:39) can't do that. You cannot wipe a memory, (01:37:40) but they could maybe take away some of (01:37:42) the salience, some of the negative (01:37:43) salants. The issue again with that is (01:37:46) that there are 72 countries in the world (01:37:49) where homosexuality is still illegal. (01:37:51) And we know there are certain uh this (01:37:53) was a brilliant book called love drugs (01:37:56) talked about a very extreme religious (01:37:58) community which was giving young men who (01:38:00) had had shown homosexual tendencies (01:38:04) SSRIs to reduce their homosexual (01:38:07) tendencies and that in itself is I (01:38:11) believe ethically unacceptable and (01:38:12) therefore again we've got to be aware (01:38:14) that if we produce drugs what could they (01:38:16) possibly be used for which is actually (01:38:19) unacceptable and how are we going to (01:38:20) deal with that as a as a population. So (01:38:22) I think anything which comes into our (01:38:24) intimate relationships like love drugs (01:38:25) or AI or whatever, we have to have that (01:38:27) conversation now because getting it (01:38:31) wrong has profound impacts on our (01:38:34) futures and on our health. (01:38:37) Let's talk about attachment styles and (01:38:41) monogamy and the neurodiversity (01:38:43) components of this. So if we start with (01:38:45) attachment styles, there's been so much (01:38:46) said about attachment styles. Can you (01:38:49) sort of give my viewers a overview of (01:38:52) what attachment styles are and what we (01:38:54) need to know about attachment styles as (01:38:55) it relates to falling and holding on to (01:38:57) love? Okay. I think the first thing you (01:38:58) need to understand is what is an (01:38:59) attachment relationship? Attachment (01:39:01) relationships are very rare in your (01:39:03) life. Um, you will have had them with (01:39:05) whoever brought you up, whoever cared (01:39:07) for you, particularly in the first two (01:39:08) years of life. That's particularly (01:39:09) significant. You will have them with (01:39:11) romantic partners. They're not all (01:39:13) romantic partners. And you might have (01:39:16) one with a best friend. They're very (01:39:18) emotionally intense. We recognize them (01:39:20) for several criteria. First of all, (01:39:21) they're developmentally significant. So, (01:39:23) attachment relationships have the (01:39:26) ability to change your psychology. Now, (01:39:29) as a child, they actually have the (01:39:30) ability to change your your actual brain (01:39:32) architecture as well, particularly in (01:39:33) those first two years because babies are (01:39:35) born without their brains fully (01:39:37) developed. That's why they're so (01:39:38) helpless. And in the first two years, (01:39:40) your brain is growing very rapidly. and (01:39:42) the environment to which you are raised (01:39:43) is going to fundamentally underpin the (01:39:46) architecture of your brain. So that's (01:39:48) developmentally very significant. That (01:39:50) first attachment relationship you have (01:39:51) with your parents, parents, carers, (01:39:54) whoever it has, whoever's bringing you (01:39:55) up. Babies will attach to literally (01:39:57) anybody who's meeting their needs to be (01:39:58) honest. Um and that will fundamentally (01:40:00) alter your brain and either in a good (01:40:01) way or unfortunately in a less good way (01:40:03) depending on how you're brought up. When (01:40:05) you have a romantic relationship, what (01:40:07) they can do is they can alter your (01:40:08) psychology, particularly how anxious you (01:40:11) are about being abandoned in that (01:40:13) relationship and how comfortable you are (01:40:15) with emotional and physical intimacy. (01:40:17) Because I will tell you a story when I (01:40:18) met my husband, I was very worried about (01:40:22) him leaving me, him abandoning me. And I (01:40:26) dealt with that by being monumentally (01:40:28) clingy. And over time, we've been (01:40:30) married for nearly 25 years. I became (01:40:32) secure because he disproved my fear that (01:40:35) he was going to leave and I am now (01:40:37) secure. So he fundamentally changed my (01:40:38) psychology. So they can do that and in (01:40:41) romantic relationships there are four (01:40:43) types of attachment relationship and we (01:40:46) place you in one of those sectors based (01:40:47) upon two different factors. The first is (01:40:51) how anxious you are about abandonment. (01:40:54) Okay, that's the first one. We ask you (01:40:55) lots of questions to work out how (01:40:56) anxious you are about that. The second (01:40:58) one is how much you want to maintain (01:41:01) proximity. So again, we'll ask you (01:41:03) questions about how close you like to be (01:41:05) to the person, whether you maintain (01:41:06) closeness because you're anxious, or (01:41:08) whether you maintain closeness because (01:41:09) you love intimacy, or whether you run (01:41:10) away from intimacy at a rate of not. And (01:41:12) depending on how you answer, we put you (01:41:14) in one of four categories. So if you are (01:41:16) not anxious in relationships about (01:41:17) abandonment, but you are very (01:41:19) comfortable with proximity, emotional, (01:41:21) physical intimacy, then you're secure. (01:41:23) And it's what it sounds like. you are (01:41:26) very comfortable in your individuality. (01:41:28) You gain huge benefits from being in (01:41:30) that relationship but you don't need (01:41:31) that relationship to exist to define (01:41:33) you. The next one is people who are (01:41:35) highly anxious about abandonment and (01:41:38) crave proximity and that was me (01:41:40) preoccupied. So they are very anxious (01:41:42) about being left and the way they deal (01:41:44) with it like I did was to cling to to (01:41:46) maintain because if I keep an eye on you (01:41:48) it's going to be okay. Then we have the (01:41:51) two um avoidant attachment styles. So (01:41:54) first of all, we have people who are (01:41:55) very anxious about being abandoned but (01:41:58) don't maintain proximity. They find (01:42:00) intimacy very uncomfortable. And the (01:42:01) reason for that, they're known as (01:42:02) fearful avoidant people. And the reason (01:42:04) they do that is the way they cope with (01:42:07) the stress of possibly being left is (01:42:08) they just don't have relationships (01:42:10) because then I can't be hurt if you do (01:42:12) that. And finally, we have dismissing (01:42:14) avoidant. dismissing avoidant people are (01:42:16) the smallest part of the population (01:42:17) generally and they um aren't worried (01:42:21) about abandonment but they also don't (01:42:22) like proximity to be honest they're (01:42:24) islands they're not that bothered about (01:42:26) being in a relationship and one of the (01:42:28) drivers for that might be that they're (01:42:30) not very comfortable with intimacy but (01:42:32) some people literally just not bothered (01:42:34) can you be shades so could you could you (01:42:37) is you know the avoidant category does (01:42:39) that exist on a spectrum and the yes it (01:42:41) does the reason I mean all attachments (01:42:43) are a spectrum the reason Why we (01:42:45) categorize them is typical scientists we (01:42:47) like a category because when we've got a (01:42:48) category we can do data analysis and we (01:42:50) can decide the sorts of behaviors for (01:42:52) example that these four quarters perform (01:42:55) or we can put somebody in one and help (01:42:57) them change to another for example. Do (01:42:59) you think the way that modern society is (01:43:01) is breeding a certain group of (01:43:04) attachment styles? Do you understand the (01:43:06) question what I'm trying to I do. I (01:43:08) think (01:43:10) we are getting less comfortable with (01:43:13) intimacy (01:43:14) and I think that's partly because we are (01:43:16) not as practiced at it as we used to be (01:43:18) because we are not as we're not forced (01:43:20) to be in close contact with a lot of (01:43:22) people as much as we used to be. You can (01:43:24) pretty much do everything from your (01:43:25) sofa. You can work from your sofa. You (01:43:27) can order food from your sofa. You can (01:43:29) try and maintain your relationships with (01:43:30) your friends from your sofa. You don't (01:43:32) actually have to be in a room with (01:43:33) anyone. after COVID there's a lot of (01:43:35) data showing that people found it people (01:43:37) are much less interested now in meeting (01:43:39) up they kind of got used to being in (01:43:41) that little bubble and even though they (01:43:42) had the yearning of I don't have anyone (01:43:44) with me they become much they became (01:43:47) much more anxious about going out and (01:43:48) actually seeing anybody and it wasn't (01:43:50) just because they were worried about (01:43:50) COVID we got out of the habit and if you (01:43:53) get out of the habit you don't get any (01:43:56) of the chemicals which encourage you to (01:43:58) go out you certainly don't get any of (01:43:59) the addictive chemicals like (01:44:00) betaendorphine so you kind of go a bit (01:44:03) cold turkey Turkey slowly and you just (01:44:05) don't have that draw to go and see (01:44:07) people anymore from a biological point (01:44:09) of view and from a psychological point (01:44:10) of view it becomes a little bit scary. (01:44:13) So you just stay where you are. So I (01:44:15) think we are seeing more avoidant (01:44:18) behaviors in people than we used to. You (01:44:21) talked about the role of dopamine in (01:44:23) getting us to like you know get up and (01:44:25) put our shoes on and get out the house. (01:44:26) And obviously there's lots of things now (01:44:27) at home that are giving us dopamine (01:44:29) whether it's social media or it's (01:44:30) pornography or if it's uh I guess you (01:44:33) know there's other substances that give (01:44:35) us dopamine and I wondered if that's if (01:44:36) you thought that maybe that's playing a (01:44:38) role in I think that is playing a role (01:44:40) because we get that hit and dopamine is (01:44:42) nice. It gives you a reward. The problem (01:44:43) it has is on its own it has no bearing (01:44:46) on social relationships or social (01:44:48) behavior. You need to have the full (01:44:50) cocktail. So that's what I say to people (01:44:52) about social media when they say you (01:44:53) know but I'm getting a dopamine hit. (01:44:55) It's like, yeah, you are, and that's (01:44:56) great, but dopamine is very (01:44:58) shortlasting. On its own, it doesn't (01:45:01) underpin your immune system or your (01:45:02) health in any way. You need the full (01:45:04) lot. You need the full four social (01:45:06) chemicals to get any advantage out of (01:45:08) it. So, that is the problem. And I think (01:45:11) people because we've heard a lot about (01:45:12) dopamine think that that dopamine alone (01:45:15) is going to make you happy and it's not. (01:45:17) You know, earlier we talked about these (01:45:18) people that go on 100 dates and maybe (01:45:20) they don't have the true intention to (01:45:21) actually form a relationship. (01:45:23) Speaking sort of broadly, what what (01:45:26) attachment style do you think those kind (01:45:28) of people fit into? Those people are are (01:45:30) avoidance. So they're either dismissing (01:45:32) avoidant, which means um they don't have (01:45:35) any of the anxiety associated with (01:45:36) relationships, or they're fearful (01:45:37) avoidance. So they they they avoid them (01:45:39) because they're scared of being hurt. So (01:45:41) when people talk about daddy issues or I (01:45:44) guess you could say mommy issues where (01:45:46) the father has (01:45:49) abandoned (01:45:50) that child at an early age. (01:45:54) Do do you think generally those people (01:45:56) have a higher probability of being (01:45:58) fearful avoidant? They certainly have a (01:46:00) higher probability of having an insecure (01:46:02) attachment style because as I mentioned (01:46:04) in the first two years of life when your (01:46:07) brain is growing the environment in (01:46:08) which you're being cared for is going to (01:46:09) shape that brain. Particularly if for (01:46:11) example a parent leaves during that time (01:46:13) or even later on when it's still quite a (01:46:15) sensitive brain that's going to impact (01:46:18) how your brain grows particularly in (01:46:20) that prefrontal cortex. So the bit right (01:46:22) at the front here okay where all your (01:46:24) social cognition is and it's going to (01:46:27) have less gray and white matter in that (01:46:28) area. Uh it's going to have less density (01:46:31) of neurons and less of a high level of (01:46:33) neurochemistry which underpins social (01:46:35) behavior. And because of that, when (01:46:37) you're an adult, you're just not as (01:46:39) equipped to be good at relationships (01:46:41) because your brain, you don't actually (01:46:43) have the brain architecture to underpin (01:46:44) it. So that's one of the reasons why we (01:46:46) see people who grow up in that (01:46:47) environment being more insecure because (01:46:49) they don't have the brain architecture (01:46:51) or indeed the neurochemical the baseline (01:46:53) neurochemical levels circulating in (01:46:54) their body which is going to motivate (01:46:56) and reward them for starting (01:46:58) relationships. So they just don't have (01:47:00) the equipment that people who maybe grew (01:47:02) up in a secure environment do. So that's (01:47:05) one of the problems. And so when people (01:47:06) say daddy issues, partly what they're (01:47:08) talking about is attachment style. It's (01:47:10) the fact that I have this attachment (01:47:11) style and I've identified I have this (01:47:13) attachment style because my father left (01:47:15) whenever I when I was however old. Now (01:47:18) whether that's the entire reason, there (01:47:20) are other reasons why people um behave (01:47:22) the way they do and might not want (01:47:24) relationships. There are genetic (01:47:25) reasons. So there are lots of reasons (01:47:26) why attachment styles can change. Oh, (01:47:30) completely. And the way that they change (01:47:32) is is it accurate to say someone gives (01:47:34) you evidence that counteracts that's one (01:47:36) of the ways and in one sense that's the (01:47:37) easiest way because in a way I didn't (01:47:40) know it was happening. I this happened (01:47:41) long before I studied attachment styles. (01:47:43) I think I was still chasing monkeys at (01:47:45) this point but um (01:47:47) so that's the easiest way is literally (01:47:49) you end up with someone who's secure and (01:47:51) over time they just get into your brain (01:47:53) and they show you you are wrong. Other (01:47:56) ways are being conscious about what your (01:47:59) attachment style is and being conscious (01:48:00) about how it doesn't work for you. There (01:48:02) is no wrong attachment style. That's (01:48:03) what I want to say. If it if you feel (01:48:06) comfortable in your attachment style, (01:48:07) brilliant. That's great. It's when it (01:48:09) doesn't work for you that there's a (01:48:10) problem. And so there I always think (01:48:12) everyone should kind of keep an eye on (01:48:14) what their attachment style is. Um I (01:48:16) think it's quite an important thing to (01:48:18) to to realize if you see yourself, for (01:48:20) example, repeating the same things over (01:48:22) and over again in relationships. So it (01:48:23) gets to a certain point and you le it (01:48:25) for example it's all getting a bit (01:48:26) intense I'm now going to run away or you (01:48:28) always end up pushing people away for (01:48:30) example maybe because you're too (01:48:31) preoccupied or whatever and it's good if (01:48:33) you see that pattern if you are (01:48:34) conscious enough to rec recognize that (01:48:36) pattern then you can do work on yourself (01:48:38) or you can ask your friends to help you (01:48:39) okay if you see me do this you need to (01:48:42) flag it you need to tell me you're doing (01:48:43) it again you need to step beyond that (01:48:45) and it will need support you'll need (01:48:46) emotional support either just from (01:48:48) friends and family or you might need (01:48:49) professional help there are attachment (01:48:51) counselors who will help you or (01:48:53) understand where your attachment style (01:48:54) came from and they will help you do the (01:48:56) work, okay, to shift. So, you can do it (01:48:58) that way. Uh, and then obviously at the (01:49:00) very extreme end of attachment disorders (01:49:01) and they always need input from a (01:49:03) professional. One of the things that I (01:49:05) found to be particularly useful is (01:49:07) vocalizing my attachment style to my (01:49:09) partner and her doing the same back so (01:49:11) that we can both kind of hold understand (01:49:13) the other person even though it might (01:49:15) not be us and we don't understand that (01:49:16) clingy behavior or that avoidant (01:49:17) behavior. vocalizing it in the way that (01:49:19) you've said, not not just becoming (01:49:20) self-aware, but like mutually aware has (01:49:23) really helped us because I can now (01:49:24) understand her behavior. She's she's (01:49:26) much more on the (01:49:28) I don't want to say clingy, but she (01:49:31) needs that sort of reassurance and of my (01:49:34) presence and Yes. And now behavior that (01:49:37) I might have thought in the past was a (01:49:39) bit irrational, I now understand more (01:49:42) contextually. Yeah. And therefore, I'm (01:49:44) able to be more empathetic and more and (01:49:46) that's really important. It's really (01:49:47) important to do that because you know we (01:49:48) all attach in different ways and by (01:49:50) understanding that it helps you as you (01:49:53) say if someone's really clingy it can (01:49:54) feel quite claustrophobic but if you (01:49:56) understand actually that's especially if (01:49:57) you're avoidant it's like triggering (01:50:00) well it's really triggering and that's (01:50:01) what we know we know there are certain (01:50:02) attachment styles that work better (01:50:03) together than others. So we know (01:50:05) particularly a dismissing avoidant (01:50:06) person with a preoccupied person. Yeah. (01:50:09) That's really tricky to keep going. that (01:50:11) is that is a long-term relationship (01:50:13) which is if it can carry on is going to (01:50:16) be very hard work and probably quite uh (01:50:18) roller coastery I would say whereas you (01:50:20) know if any of the of the insecure so (01:50:22) I'm doing this because it's a grid any (01:50:24) of the insecure attachment styles if you (01:50:26) can find yourself somewhere insecure (01:50:27) brilliant secure people are amazing (01:50:28) because they will absorb all that stuff (01:50:31) because they're so secure in themselves (01:50:33) whether you're clingy whether you're (01:50:34) pushing them away they absorb it and (01:50:37) they're good at it preoccupied and (01:50:39) fearful avoidant that works quite well (01:50:41) in one sense because the preoccupied (01:50:43) person wants to stick with the fearful (01:50:44) avoidant person and the thing that's (01:50:46) really really troubling the fearful (01:50:47) avoidant person is you're going to (01:50:48) leave. So if you literally sit on top of (01:50:50) them which is what you're doing if (01:50:51) you're preoccupied then that's great in (01:50:53) one sense because they will think oh (01:50:54) okay they're literally not going (01:50:55) anywhere because they're there all the (01:50:57) time. Um so there are partnerships that (01:51:00) work better and I do I agree with you. I (01:51:02) think it's good to be aware of what each (01:51:04) of within a partnership is because then (01:51:06) you can understand some of the quirks (01:51:07) and behavior. you can understand some of (01:51:09) your reactions to that behavior. (01:51:11) Neurodeiversity. (01:51:13) In the last couple of weeks, I was (01:51:14) thinking, it might be my attachment (01:51:16) style, but it also might be the fact (01:51:17) that I was diagnosed with ADHD, which (01:51:19) I'm not sure if I have, but I was (01:51:20) diagnosed with it. Um, I was thinking (01:51:22) about how a neurodeiverse person might (01:51:25) struggle in love and holding on to (01:51:27) relationships because of their (01:51:29) neurodiversity. Before we started (01:51:30) talking, you said that roughly, I think (01:51:32) 25% of the population are classified as (01:51:34) neurodyiverse. (01:51:36) If I have ADHD or autism, how am I (01:51:39) likely or more likely to struggle in (01:51:41) love? Firstly, because the big the (01:51:44) biggie is that the neuroscience and (01:51:46) genetics of love are very like the neuro (01:51:50) the neuroscience and genetics of (01:51:52) neurodeiversity. So the chemistry that (01:51:54) underpins love is also implicated in (01:51:56) neurodeiversity. (01:51:57) Some of the areas of the brain which are (01:51:59) activated in love are also involved in (01:52:01) neurodeiversity. And that is why (01:52:03) particularly with autism but also with (01:52:05) ADHD the issues that that people who are (01:52:08) autistic or ADHD have express themselves (01:52:11) a lot in the social sphere because it's (01:52:13) the same neurochemistry and genetics (01:52:15) essentially. So for example the oxytocin (01:52:17) receptor gene which has 26 point (01:52:20) mutations on it which impact your social (01:52:22) behavior um and and individual (01:52:24) differences in social behavior. A lot of (01:52:26) those are implicated also in autism. (01:52:28) Dopamine uh is implicated obviously in (01:52:30) ADHD. Serotonin is implicated in ADHD. (01:52:33) Those are both chemicals which are (01:52:35) involved in in love, one of the (01:52:38) neurochemicals of love. So there is some (01:52:39) major crossovers between the two. There (01:52:42) are several reasons why neurodiversity (01:52:43) is difficult. For example, um the way (01:52:47) the neurodeiverse brain works, things (01:52:50) like executive function is different in (01:52:52) people with neurodyiverse brains. What (01:52:54) does that mean? Executive function is (01:52:55) things like attention, uh emotional (01:52:58) inhibition, and working memory. It's (01:53:00) kind of the set of skills that allow you (01:53:01) to operate within the world. Um that's (01:53:04) implicate that's impacted in ADHD and in (01:53:07) autism. The processing speeds and also (01:53:10) the way that you process those (01:53:12) particular three elements is different. (01:53:14) For example, people with ADHD, their (01:53:15) working memory generally isn't great. (01:53:18) They find it difficult to recall things (01:53:19) or hold on to things. Uh emotional (01:53:22) regulation is difficult. So, for (01:53:23) example, people with ADHD might build to (01:53:25) anger quicker than people who don't have (01:53:27) it. Um, people with autism tend to have (01:53:29) quite extreme extremes of emotional (01:53:32) experience for example and all of that (01:53:34) is very difficult in a relationship (01:53:36) because if you live with someone who has (01:53:37) extreme emotional reactions or gets very (01:53:39) angry and conflicts very quickly that's (01:53:42) tricky to deal with. We also know things (01:53:44) like sensory processing particularly in (01:53:46) autism is affected. So that has two (01:53:48) implications. First of all, when we're (01:53:50) using all that sensory information in (01:53:52) the attraction stage, so all that (01:53:53) sensory information that's going into (01:53:54) your limbic area, the sensory processing (01:53:56) speeds in people with autism tend to be (01:53:59) slower, but they also tend to be either (01:54:01) hyper sensory, which means they feel all (01:54:04) the senses very intensely, or they tend (01:54:07) to have different experiences sensors, (01:54:09) or they tend to have very low sensory (01:54:11) experience. And all of that will impact, (01:54:12) first of all, how that algorithm (01:54:14) operates in your brain. It will also (01:54:16) impact just simply things like the (01:54:17) environment in which you might go on a (01:54:18) date. So most people want to go on a (01:54:20) date to a restaurant or a pub or a (01:54:22) comedy club or wherever. For autistic (01:54:25) people that's really hard (01:54:27) to deal with. We also know unfortunately (01:54:29) the people who are neurodeiverse are (01:54:31) more likely to be in abusive (01:54:33) relationships (01:54:35) and there are reasons for that. If we (01:54:37) look at ADHD, ADHD is um a dysfunction (01:54:40) in the dopamine system in the brain. So (01:54:42) what happens is you release dopamine but (01:54:44) it's re it's taken back up into the (01:54:45) brain before it has enough of an effect. (01:54:48) So what people with ADHD tend to do is (01:54:49) they dopamine seek. They do activities (01:54:51) which give them a hit of dopamine. Um so (01:54:54) you know I have my daughter I hope she (01:54:56) she should she doesn't mind my (01:54:57) daughter's ADHD autistic. Um her (01:54:59) dopamine seeking is shopping. She (01:55:02) dopamine sinks by shopping because you (01:55:03) get a lovely dopamine hit when you do (01:55:04) it. But unfortunately start of (01:55:06) relationships is a dopamine C. You get (01:55:09) lots of lovely dopamine in start of (01:55:10) relationship. So what you'll tend to (01:55:11) find with ADHD people is they will go (01:55:13) into relationships really quickly (01:55:15) without really considering is this (01:55:16) person right for me. So there's there's (01:55:17) that impulsivity that comes with ADHD as (01:55:19) well because they're getting that hit of (01:55:21) dopamine at the start. We also know that (01:55:24) for example if you are neurodeiverse you (01:55:26) tend to mask a lot. You've got used to (01:55:30) in life masking to fit in with the (01:55:31) neurotypical world. What's masking? (01:55:33) Masking is knowing the rules of the (01:55:35) neurotypical world. So for example, (01:55:37) autistic girls, the reason why autistic (01:55:38) girls tend to be diagnosed later is they (01:55:40) become very good at learning the social (01:55:42) rules. So all those things that they (01:55:43) would naturally want to do in a social (01:55:45) situation, you know, be mute or not (01:55:48) reciprocate properly or, you know, not (01:55:50) say the right thing, they learn what the (01:55:52) rules are. It's why they burn out (01:55:54) generally is because they've spent their (01:55:55) whole childhood studying it and going, (01:55:56) "Okay, so in that circumstance I do this (01:55:58) and in that circumstance I do this." And (01:56:00) they hide the autism. Now, so not only (01:56:02) is that incredibly stressful, but if (01:56:04) you've got used to in life denying who (01:56:06) you are, if you go into a relationship (01:56:08) with someone, particularly if they're (01:56:09) particularly dominant or they're (01:56:10) abusive, you carry on denying who you (01:56:12) are, denying that you have a right, for (01:56:14) example, to be with someone who's kind. (01:56:17) Mhm. Deny, you know, deny the fact that (01:56:19) you have needs. And so, we know that (01:56:20) people who mask find it much much harder (01:56:24) to express what they want in a (01:56:26) relationship. So it is it is really (01:56:30) incredibly tricky I think and you know (01:56:32) we also have issues with empathy for (01:56:34) example there's a myth particularly (01:56:35) autistic people don't empathize that's (01:56:37) not true it's unfortunately still in the (01:56:39) diagnostic criteria and it shouldn't be (01:56:42) the issue is is that um they empathize (01:56:44) in a different way and um so either they (01:56:48) are actually hypermpaths (01:56:50) which means that they feel the other (01:56:51) person's emotions so strongly that they (01:56:54) shut down and so they don't actually (01:56:56) respond to the person because they can't (01:56:58) cope with the extreme emotional overload (01:57:00) they've had. Or the other reason is they (01:57:02) do empathize, but they empathize with a (01:57:04) neurodeiverse brain. And there's been a (01:57:06) recent study looking at this and saying (01:57:08) actually if you put two new (01:57:08) neurodyiverse people together and ask (01:57:10) them to empathize with each other, (01:57:10) they're brilliant. Two neurotypical (01:57:12) people together, ask them brilliant. Ask (01:57:14) a neurodyiverse person and a (01:57:15) neurotypical person to empath they it's (01:57:17) hard because the brain operates in a (01:57:19) different way. So empathy is the basis (01:57:21) of of relationships. So if you um are in (01:57:25) a mixed relationship, neurotypical and (01:57:27) neurodyiverse, that can be tricky (01:57:28) because it can be very hard to empathize (01:57:30) with the other person and know what (01:57:31) their emotional needs are. (01:57:34) On this point then if if we accept that (01:57:38) people with ADHD, I've been diagnosed (01:57:40) with ADHD so everything I say is within (01:57:42) that context. um have higher impulsivity (01:57:45) and they have higher novelty seek (01:57:47) seeking behavior, novelty seeeking (01:57:49) behavior and they have struggles with (01:57:52) emotional (01:57:53) regulation. Yes. And they have some (01:57:55) executive function which is going to (01:57:57) impair their ability to think about sort (01:57:58) of like the stakes and foresight and all (01:58:00) these things. (01:58:02) Does that mean that people with ADHD are (01:58:04) more likely to cheat on you? There's (01:58:06) actually a study which um looked at this (01:58:08) in 2015. It suggested that adults with (01:58:11) ADHD were more likely to report (01:58:13) infidelity than nonADHD peers. (01:58:17) However, the effect size was not (01:58:19) overwhelming. Yes, I I'm always wary of (01:58:22) studies like that because first of all, (01:58:23) if the effect size is not overwhelming, (01:58:25) I think we have to be very careful of (01:58:27) labeling neurodyiverse people as the (01:58:29) problem in a relationship. Um, and I'm (01:58:31) very aware of that. I do a lot of (01:58:32) training on this particularly for (01:58:33) therapists. And I think we need to be (01:58:35) aware that all relationships are a (01:58:38) interaction between two people and they (01:58:40) will each bring their issues. And I (01:58:41) think the labeling of people with (01:58:42) neurodiversity as the problem is is not (01:58:45) on. We all whether we're neurodyiverse (01:58:47) or not have to learn to adapt to the (01:58:48) other person. And we have to educate (01:58:49) ourselves about how their brain works, (01:58:51) attachment, whatever it might be. And (01:58:53) therefore, I need think we need to be (01:58:54) careful. I think with ADHD, what we do (01:58:56) know is people with ADHD are more likely (01:58:59) to have many more short-term (01:59:00) relationships because they get bored (01:59:02) quite easily. They are also much more (01:59:04) likely to undertake risky sexual (01:59:06) behavior, cheating maybe um because they (01:59:10) are that because of the impulsivity. So (01:59:12) it might be I would want to see that (01:59:14) study replicated many times before I (01:59:16) think we say that's a that's a (01:59:17) fundamental issue. And I would also (01:59:20) question you know if it's got a very (01:59:21) small effect size there's many other (01:59:22) reasons why people cheat. So, do you (01:59:24) know I think in part the reason why I (01:59:26) asked that question is because again one (01:59:27) of my very good friends um has struggled (01:59:29) in this regard for many many years. He's (01:59:31) approaching his 40s now and he's what (01:59:34) what what part of the relationship is (01:59:36) well it's not necessarily what he (01:59:37) struggled with. It's what he loves. He (01:59:39) loves as he says to me the chase. Yes. (01:59:41) He says I love the chase. Yes. And when (01:59:43) you when you really just love the chase (01:59:45) and you maybe don't love the part after (01:59:47) it as much you're not going to have a (01:59:49) great relationship. and he got to I (01:59:50) think about 35 36 years old and he was (01:59:53) diagnosed with ADHD and it put the rest (01:59:55) of his life in context and it was I mean (01:59:57) of all the people that I know that have (01:59:58) ADHD most certainly he fits the the sort (02:00:00) of criteria and um he looked back (02:00:03) through his old report cards and he look (02:00:04) mapped the behavior that he had had in (02:00:06) relationships. It was very impulsive. It (02:00:08) was very very short term. He loves he (02:00:10) goes on more dates than anyone I've ever (02:00:11) met in my entire life because he loves (02:00:13) the as he says the chase. And I I (02:00:16) thought, you know, maybe there is a link (02:00:18) there with his neurodiversity. (02:00:19) Obviously, I would say there probably (02:00:20) is. I mean, he's dopamine seeking. Yeah. (02:00:23) Essentially, that's what he's doing (02:00:24) because the early stages, you know, when (02:00:26) you get lot um when you get further into (02:00:28) a relationship, dopamine takes more of a (02:00:30) back seat. Um and come in. So, betray is (02:00:33) the chemical of long-term love. Dopamine (02:00:35) is much more in the background at that (02:00:38) point. So, we get the major part of our (02:00:40) dopamine hits in relationships at the (02:00:42) start. And that's probably why he gets (02:00:44) to a point where the dopamine starts (02:00:46) tailing off. The oxytocin starts to tail (02:00:48) off and beta endorphine starts kicking (02:00:50) in and it becomes less exciting. That's (02:00:52) when we move from passionate love to (02:00:53) companionate love and it's just not as (02:00:55) exhilarating maybe. So if you have a (02:00:58) brain like that that's highly dopamine (02:00:59) seeking. You're going to theoretically (02:01:02) struggle to have long-term (02:01:05) relationships. And we know that. We know (02:01:07) that. I I recently um did a conference (02:01:09) which was on women in ADHD and we had a (02:01:11) workshop and most of the women in that (02:01:13) room said I either don't have (02:01:15) relationships or I struggle or I'm in a (02:01:18) long-term relationship but it is a daily (02:01:20) struggle to maintain it because it's so (02:01:23) hard to keep your attention on that (02:01:25) relationship to not look for the novelty (02:01:28) elsewhere and also for the other person (02:01:30) particularly if they're neurotypical to (02:01:31) deal with. I mean, one woman said to me, (02:01:33) "I'm always told I'm too much. I'm too (02:01:35) much to go out with because of the (02:01:37) impulsivity and the rushing around and (02:01:39) the lack of attention and the lack of (02:01:41) calmness and the need for spontaneity, I (02:01:43) guess." Yeah. What can one do about it? (02:01:46) I I don't like pushing drugs on anybody. (02:01:48) And I think whether you take um (02:01:50) medication for ADHD is a very personal (02:01:53) decision. But I think if I the mantra I (02:01:56) have is if your ADHD is fundamentally (02:02:01) upsetting your life and you feel that (02:02:03) then it's something you maybe need to (02:02:04) consider. It's very difficult to do just (02:02:07) off your own back. It's not a therapy (02:02:08) issue. It's not you know an attachment (02:02:11) issue. It's very likely to be a (02:02:13) neurochemical issue. And that's the (02:02:15) different thing. I would also say it's (02:02:17) also about the people who you go out (02:02:18) with. I've spoken to lots of couples (02:02:20) which are mixed in terms of (02:02:21) neurodiversity and neurotypical and it's (02:02:23) about the person who's neurotypical (02:02:24) really educating themselves about how (02:02:25) the neurodyiverse brain works. So they (02:02:27) have an understanding also about why is (02:02:29) that person reacting like that? Why are (02:02:31) they doing that? And that's also really (02:02:33) really important. I don't think we want (02:02:34) to put the burden always on (02:02:36) neurodyiverse people to change because I (02:02:37) don't think that's really an acceptable (02:02:39) thing to ask them to do. I don't think (02:02:41) it's really any different from any (02:02:42) relationship. The best relationships are (02:02:44) ones where we take the time to really (02:02:46) understand who our partner is. That's (02:02:49) the way it works best. So you saying you (02:02:50) and your partner talk about your (02:02:52) attachment styles. That's really (02:02:53) important. You're fundamentally (02:02:56) making it clear that that's important to (02:02:58) you and that your partner has an (02:02:59) understanding and you're explaining your (02:03:00) behavior. And I think that's important. (02:03:02) I wonder how this dubtales into the (02:03:04) subject of sex and novelty and (02:03:06) spontaneity as it relates to sex. If (02:03:08) you're a neurody divergent person or you (02:03:10) just have a higher, you know, impulse (02:03:13) desire, I guess, or impulsivity, need (02:03:16) for novelty, (02:03:17) you probably get bored of sex pretty (02:03:19) quick, possibly. Yeah. I mean, it's not (02:03:21) an area I study particularly, but I (02:03:23) think yes, you probably do. And and we (02:03:24) know that humans, some humans are (02:03:27) genetically neurode divergent or not, (02:03:29) some humans are genetically predisposed (02:03:30) to like novelty more than others. It's (02:03:32) part of the of one of the dopamine (02:03:33) genes. And so some people yes they are (02:03:35) more likely to seek out novelty and want (02:03:37) for example yes a very varied sex life. (02:03:39) Um but you know that's something you can (02:03:41) have with one individual. You don't (02:03:42) necessarily have to go out and you know (02:03:43) if that individual is willing to to go (02:03:45) down that route with you. It's not (02:03:46) something you necessarily have to seek (02:03:48) elsewhere. As it relates to all the work (02:03:50) that you do and the future work that (02:03:51) you're going to go on to do. What is the (02:03:53) most important thing we haven't talked (02:03:54) about that maybe we should have talked (02:03:56) about? Um two things. I really really (02:03:59) want to emphasize the body of work which (02:04:02) says that your relationships are the (02:04:04) biggest factor in your health, your (02:04:06) longevity and your well-being. And the (02:04:08) reason why I want to emphasize that is (02:04:10) because in a world of digital (02:04:11) communication we have become much less (02:04:14) good at nurturing our relationships much (02:04:15) less good at impact inputting into our (02:04:17) relationships maintaining our (02:04:18) relationships in the way they should be (02:04:20) maintained which is in person. And that (02:04:23) has consequences for our health. you (02:04:24) know a wonderful study the first study (02:04:26) of its kind in 2010 there have been many (02:04:28) since by Julie Halt Lunstead she but she (02:04:31) did a massive meta analysis which is (02:04:32) lots and lots of studies coming together (02:04:34) looking at the impact of your social (02:04:36) network your relationships all those (02:04:38) sorts of things on outcomes health (02:04:40) outcomes things like the likelihood that (02:04:42) you would have poor mental health the (02:04:43) likelihood that you would suffer from (02:04:44) certain chronic diseases the likelihood (02:04:46) that you would recover from certain (02:04:48) illnesses or how long it would take you (02:04:49) to come back round after having an (02:04:50) operation in terms of getting better and (02:04:52) she found and it's been even more (02:04:54) impressive since then that that your (02:04:56) relationships are the biggest factor in (02:04:58) your health, well-being and longevity (02:05:00) above all else from don't smoke, (02:05:02) maintain a good weight, do your (02:05:04) exercise, eat your vegetables, all those (02:05:05) sorts of things. Above all of that sit (02:05:08) your relationships. So when we in this (02:05:10) very healthconscious world where we have (02:05:11) lots of health influences and all that (02:05:13) kind of thing, (02:05:15) we're still missing that point and we're (02:05:18) still trying to do our relationships (02:05:20) efficiently in this busy busy world. And (02:05:22) I understand why. And the tools we've (02:05:25) been given to do it are attractive. You (02:05:27) know, they're attractive. We love a new (02:05:28) shiny thing, humans, and they're they're (02:05:30) great. But what's happened is we've (02:05:32) we've forgotten who we are and how we (02:05:35) need to do it. And our brains did not (02:05:36) evolve with the shiny screen. Our brains (02:05:38) evolved in a world where we all lived (02:05:39) very very close together. And we need to (02:05:41) kind of in a way go back to that if you (02:05:43) want to f have that fulfilling life. So (02:05:45) I think that's my first point. I think (02:05:47) the second one is the role for AI. Uh, (02:05:50) and you've probably talked about AI in (02:05:51) so many different contexts, but AI in (02:05:53) our intimate relationships, and I don't (02:05:55) mean just sexually intimate, I mean (02:05:56) emotionally intimate. So, any (02:05:57) relationship you have based on love is (02:05:59) something we need to talk about because (02:06:02) there is work towards, for example, we (02:06:05) know about AI chatbots already. Uh, and (02:06:07) we know that there's going to be work (02:06:09) towards having AI caretakers, for (02:06:11) example, people who care for people, (02:06:13) robots who care for people, or even, you (02:06:14) know, you could even possibly have a (02:06:16) relationship. I'm not talking about sex (02:06:17) bots, but I'm talking about a full (02:06:18) relationship with a robot. Again, all of (02:06:20) these things, we need to understand the (02:06:22) implications and we need to have a (02:06:24) conversation now because when you (02:06:25) unleash these things, if you haven't had (02:06:27) that conversation, it's very hard to put (02:06:28) them back in the box. And we know (02:06:30) already things like chat bots are out (02:06:32) there and I'm not the sort to say (02:06:34) something is entirely negative. So, chat (02:06:36) bots have their place. They've been (02:06:37) shown to be really, really good for (02:06:39) particularly with people who have social (02:06:40) anxiety or people who are, for example, (02:06:42) autistic and want to practice being (02:06:44) social. They're really good. You're not (02:06:46) going to get any criticism from the (02:06:47) chatbot. You're not going to get a funny (02:06:48) face pulled or make them feel (02:06:49) uncomfortable. It's great. You can have (02:06:51) a good old and that's brilliant. It's (02:06:54) when you replace real human contact. (02:06:56) Absolutely. It's (02:06:59) it makes the conversation feel a lot (02:07:01) more comfortable and natural. Um, and (02:07:03) you can really focus on the chat itself, (02:07:06) distractions. It uh it definitely helps (02:07:08) keep the vibe positive. Isn't it crazy (02:07:10) how much that's progressed? Yeah, it is. (02:07:13) But what scares me about it is that (02:07:15) person talking to you there. Your brain (02:07:18) at the moment because we haven't (02:07:19) advanced enough in AI and maybe well (02:07:21) knows that's not human. And because it (02:07:23) knows it's not human, it's not releasing (02:07:26) any of the positive chemicals that come (02:07:27) with social interaction in your brain. (02:07:29) And it's those chemicals that underpin (02:07:31) your health, your mental health and your (02:07:32) physical health. Be sure often underpins (02:07:34) your immune system. So that's the (02:07:37) problem. Your prefrontal cortex at the (02:07:39) moment is not recognizing that as human. (02:07:41) So it's not going to kick off anything. (02:07:43) And that is the problem. Now maybe a (02:07:44) robot, you know, an AI guy would say to (02:07:46) me, "Oh, we'll get there." Okay, if you (02:07:49) can get there, great. But at the moment, (02:07:51) we're not. And we have people who are (02:07:52) starting to build really strong (02:07:53) attachments to these things. You can (02:07:55) build an attachment to a chatbot. It's a (02:07:57) parasocial relationship. Same as (02:07:59) building a relationship to a celebrity (02:08:00) you've never met, but you're not getting (02:08:02) any of the positive benefits. So have (02:08:05) them in their life. Have them as part of (02:08:06) your social network. if you want to (02:08:07) spend time, but do not replace humans (02:08:10) with them or even dogs with them. Um, (02:08:14) care robots scare me because um again (02:08:16) it's about replacing humans in a context (02:08:19) which is very very complicated from a (02:08:22) neuroscientific point of view. Care (02:08:24) requires empathy. It requires um a thing (02:08:28) called which occurs in very close human (02:08:30) relationships again underpins our um (02:08:32) immune system and our health known as (02:08:33) biobehavioral synchrony. So bio (02:08:36) behavioral synchrony, we won't have it (02:08:38) now. I'm really sorry. We're not close (02:08:39) enough. But you will have it with your (02:08:40) partner. So when you're with your (02:08:41) partner, if I were to observe you, your (02:08:44) body language and maybe the gestures you (02:08:46) use and the and your vocal tone and (02:08:48) maybe the language you use would start (02:08:50) kind of matching each other. We all know (02:08:51) this from management training. You know, (02:08:52) you match people to make them feel (02:08:53) closer to you. Fine. It's what humans (02:08:55) do. It makes us feel close to each (02:08:56) other. But if we were to look into your (02:08:58) body, you and your partner would have (02:09:00) entered that room at different baseline (02:09:02) levels of physiological measures such as (02:09:04) your blood pressure, your heart rate, (02:09:05) your body temperature. Okay? If you sat (02:09:07) together and had a chat for five (02:09:08) minutes, those would all come into (02:09:10) synchrony. So your heart rates would (02:09:11) synchronize, your body temperature and (02:09:12) your blood pressure. And then if we were (02:09:14) to look into your brain, two things (02:09:16) would have happened. First of all, (02:09:18) having come into the room again with (02:09:19) different activation patterns in your (02:09:20) brain, we would look in your brain and (02:09:22) your activation patterns would be the (02:09:24) same. So you would be perceiving the (02:09:26) world in the same way. And finally, if (02:09:28) we looked at your neurochemical levels, (02:09:29) so we generally look at oxytocin because (02:09:31) it's easiest to access. Again, we all (02:09:33) have baseline levels of oxytocin. (02:09:35) They're different from each other. You (02:09:37) would have walked in with different (02:09:37) levels. After 5 minutes, they would have (02:09:39) synchronized. They would be the same. So (02:09:41) what actually happens when you're with (02:09:43) someone you're close to to develop that (02:09:45) bond is you become one organism. (02:09:48) You are literally operating as one (02:09:50) being. And we think that's that in a way (02:09:52) is the absolute fundamental basis of (02:09:54) human close love and it's the fundament (02:09:57) and you don't get that at the moment (02:09:58) with an AI robot. And I can't imagine it (02:10:00) being easy because you need a wet brain (02:10:02) and you need a circulatory system. This (02:10:04) um this picture I have here which talks (02:10:06) about the brain and love. What is that (02:10:08) showing? That's showing that we can I'll (02:10:10) throw it up on the screen but yes it's (02:10:12) showing that we can't get the same depth (02:10:14) of love as it relates to neuroscience (02:10:16) that then we can from a human versus (02:10:19) like a pet. Yes. So what's happening (02:10:21) here? So we've got the different sorts (02:10:22) of love. So we've got romantic love and (02:10:24) parental love. Now these two arguably (02:10:27) are the most intense forms of love. (02:10:29) Okay? Uh that's why you see such (02:10:31) amazingly complex areas of the brain (02:10:32) lighting up. You've got a lot happening (02:10:33) in the core of the brain here. This is (02:10:35) the lyic system. And you've got (02:10:36) happening neoccortically as well in (02:10:38) relation to areas related to um social (02:10:40) behavior but also things like (02:10:42) empathizing, okay, and maintenance and (02:10:44) trust and all those sorts of things. (02:10:45) Love for a friend is from a (02:10:48) neuroscientific point of view nearly as (02:10:49) complicated as romantic love. But what (02:10:52) it doesn't actually have which is really (02:10:54) interesting is in romantic love the (02:10:56) difference is we actually get some (02:10:58) activations which mirror the activations (02:10:59) you get if you're on an opiate. Mhm. (02:11:01) That sort of addictive euphoric um (02:11:04) sensation. You get that you get that (02:11:06) pattern in romantic love. You don't get (02:11:07) it in friendship love. You also don't (02:11:09) generally get biobehavioral synchrony in (02:11:11) friendship unless it's a really close (02:11:14) friend. So friendship love is just less (02:11:17) intense. It's a love but it's not as (02:11:19) intense. I wouldn't describe this as (02:11:21) love for a stranger. What you can see (02:11:23) the reason why I say that is can you see (02:11:24) how little unconscious activation there (02:11:27) is? This is the limbic area. Well that's (02:11:28) the same with the pet. So so we get (02:11:30) we're not getting any unconscious (02:11:34) nurturing attachment behaviors which you (02:11:36) wouldn't expect to get with a stranger. (02:11:37) with a pet. I'm surprised to look at (02:11:39) this and I don't know where this came (02:11:40) from because other studies have shown (02:11:42) that pet love is very like parental (02:11:44) love. Oh, really? Yeah. So, I don't know (02:11:47) which study this is and I don't know (02:11:50) what they looked at or how many people (02:11:51) they looked at. So, that's interesting. (02:11:53) But what I would expect to see more more (02:11:55) actually here in the nurturing area (02:11:57) because we do know that um you can build (02:11:59) an attachment relationship with a pet. (02:12:00) So, it's very surprising that there's (02:12:03) nothing there. (02:12:05) The research you have there looked at (02:12:07) the differences between friends, loves, (02:12:08) pet strangers. Um, it's from Renee Atel (02:12:12) cerebral cortex, a 2024 study. Okay. (02:12:16) Okay. That's interesting. I mean, with (02:12:18) science, you sometimes get different (02:12:19) answers because you've done different (02:12:21) methodology or you've got different (02:12:22) populations. We tend to like to see (02:12:24) things replicated for them to be (02:12:26) converted. So, I'm a bit surprised by (02:12:28) this. Also, in my book, I talk about (02:12:29) some really good studies that have been (02:12:31) done looking at dog human love. So I'm (02:12:33) surprised by that. I'm not surprised (02:12:34) that it's got quite a a bit of cortical (02:12:36) action. I'm really surprised it has (02:12:37) nothing in the limbic area because (02:12:38) that's where attachment is. And love for (02:12:40) nature. Um again this is really (02:12:42) interesting because again this is this (02:12:44) is the striatum and the amydala and this (02:12:46) is where human love like to another (02:12:48) sentient being would be. And again we've (02:12:50) got nothing. So love for nature is a (02:12:53) much more it's not a conscious thing (02:12:56) but it's a much less emotional thing. (02:12:59) It's it's different. And and we only (02:13:01) really see patterns like this if you're (02:13:04) interacting with another sentient being. (02:13:06) And this is what kind of worries me (02:13:07) about AI because if you did this with (02:13:09) AI, you would probably get something (02:13:11) like this. If you really loved your AI (02:13:12) robot at the moment or your chatbot, you (02:13:15) would get this. But you I would be very (02:13:19) surprised if you got anything in the (02:13:20) limbic area. And and and the studies so (02:13:22) far show that we don't because you you (02:13:24) don't develop that loving relationship (02:13:26) and you certainly don't get anything in (02:13:27) the prefrontal cortex. And that's the (02:13:29) problem. Now AI might go on in leaps and (02:13:31) bounds, but I at the moment when they (02:13:34) talk about programming empathy, empathy (02:13:35) is so complicated and particularly the (02:13:38) empathy we have, we have cognitive (02:13:39) empathy. Most animals have emotional (02:13:41) empathy. So cognitive empathy is much (02:13:43) more complex. It's very hard to do and (02:13:46) the fact you can't get biobehavioral (02:13:48) synchrony unless you have a wet system. (02:13:51) And robots so far don't have wet (02:13:53) systems. So that's what worries me. But (02:13:55) it's going to come and we have to have (02:13:56) that conversation. (02:13:58) We have a closing tradition where the (02:13:59) last guest leaves the question for the (02:14:00) next guest knowing not knowing who (02:14:03) they're leaving it for. Okay. And the (02:14:06) question that's been left for you, was (02:14:08) there a moment in your career when you (02:14:11) said to yourself, I have made it. (02:14:17) Um I think I'm not good at doing that (02:14:20) actually. I said to my husband the other (02:14:22) day, I'm not good at celebrating when I (02:14:24) do something. So I tend to go, what's (02:14:26) next? (02:14:27) um very human. I suppose one of the (02:14:29) times I thought I probably had made it (02:14:31) was when I started at the University of (02:14:32) Oxford and I was working with Robin (02:14:33) Dumbar and then I thought from an (02:14:36) academic point of view this is like the (02:14:39) pinnacle of where you can work with a (02:14:41) team of people who are at the forefront (02:14:43) of what they're doing. So I think that (02:14:44) was probably a moment but I'm really (02:14:47) good in retrospect at kind of rewriting (02:14:50) that and going yeah but that wasn't good (02:14:51) enough so let's go and do the next (02:14:52) thing. So so if we look forward then sat (02:14:55) here now (02:14:57) What do you think the moment will be in (02:14:58) your future where you think you've made (02:14:59) it? Although you probably when you (02:15:00) arrive there, you'll think, you know, (02:15:02) there's another goal. (02:15:04) I think (02:15:06) it's partly to do with the spreading of (02:15:08) education. I think if my next book (02:15:11) reaches a lot of people and reaches (02:15:13) enough people, I will think I've made it (02:15:15) and I've done my mission to share what (02:15:19) we know about dads because there's so (02:15:22) much written and it stays in fusty old (02:15:24) journals and nobody reads it. And I want (02:15:27) to share that because it fundamentally (02:15:29) changes (02:15:31) how who dads think they are and how they (02:15:32) do it. I get so many emails from people (02:15:34) saying, you know, wow, I've read your (02:15:36) book and it like legitimizes so much for (02:15:38) me. It makes me understand what I'm (02:15:39) going through or it makes me realize (02:15:40) that I am needed. And I think if I can (02:15:42) get a book that has a really diverse (02:15:44) readership, then that will be the moment (02:15:47) where I think yes, I've done what I want (02:15:48) to do. And what is the um unheard plight (02:15:50) of dads? Because you'll be on the (02:15:51) receiving end of so many messages and (02:15:53) emails and stuff. What if you could (02:15:55) summarize how dads are feeling at the (02:15:57) moment and why your work is resonating? (02:16:00) How would you summarize if if you were (02:16:02) speaking as a dad, a dad who represents (02:16:05) the average of the dads that contact (02:16:07) you? What would those sentences be? It (02:16:10) would be, I'm made to feel unimportant. (02:16:13) I am made to feel like a secondary (02:16:16) parent, like a bag carrier or the person (02:16:18) who makes the tea. That's particularly (02:16:20) in relation to like birth and antiatal (02:16:21) stuff. So, it's all about them not (02:16:25) feeling like they are important or that (02:16:27) they're needed. and they are so wrong. (02:16:29) Is the law slightly biased towards Do (02:16:32) you know how why I asked that question? (02:16:34) I was in a cab the other day and I got (02:16:35) in this taxi in uh in London and the cab (02:16:38) driver um spent about 30 minutes telling (02:16:42) me that he'd been at a march in London (02:16:45) for dads and that he had had his child (02:16:48) taken off him, I believe. Mhm. and he (02:16:51) was proceeded to tell me for the next (02:16:52) sort of 20 minutes that the laws are (02:16:54) unfair as it relates to dad's right to (02:16:57) to see and take care of their kids. (02:16:59) Yeah, you probably know the laws better (02:17:00) than I do, but it is and we I've spent a (02:17:03) long time and I'm still not there yet (02:17:05) wanting to go into the family courts in (02:17:07) Britain and inform them about this (02:17:09) because at the moment they're operating (02:17:10) on out modded um understandings that the (02:17:14) primary person a child needs is their (02:17:15) mom and therefore if there's any (02:17:19) possible reason why dad they don't think (02:17:22) dad is appropriate, whatever it might (02:17:24) be, it might be that dad's living too (02:17:25) far away or dad's job doesn't allow for (02:17:27) it. They will not stick to the (02:17:29) presumption of 50/50 custody and they (02:17:31) will swing it all over in terms in in (02:17:33) favor of mom, for example. And that is (02:17:35) because they do not fundamentally (02:17:37) understand how important that father is (02:17:38) to that child. And that's because (02:17:40) they've not kept up. They're literally (02:17:42) they're operating on very outmoded (02:17:44) completely culturally based, not (02:17:46) evidencebased at all assumptions about (02:17:48) who a father is. So he's right. He's (02:17:51) absolutely right. And there are many men (02:17:53) who are in that position. I get emailed (02:17:55) all the time from men doing and all the (02:17:56) time from people saying, you know, well, (02:17:58) you come and be my expert witness, et (02:18:00) and I can't I can't do it. I I don't (02:18:02) have time to do it. But yeah, there's a (02:18:03) fundamental misunderstanding of how (02:18:05) important fathers are, but that's just (02:18:06) reflecting a wider cultural problem. (02:18:11) Thank you. Thank you so much for doing (02:18:13) the work you're doing because you're (02:18:14) certainly opening millions and millions (02:18:16) of people's eyes. You've opened my eyes (02:18:17) in a a bunch of profound ways, both on (02:18:19) the subject of love, but also on the (02:18:21) importance of fatherhood. And it is very (02:18:23) easy to to believe the sort of broader (02:18:25) social narrative that as a father you (02:18:27) are surplus to requirements or you're (02:18:29) some I don't know you're there to to pay (02:18:31) for things or you're um less important (02:18:34) in some way. But you know I've got a (02:18:36) brother who's a year older than me and (02:18:37) he's got three kids under the age of six (02:18:39) and um he's really managed to design his (02:18:41) life around being there for those kids. (02:18:42) And I've seen both the impact that (02:18:44) that's had on those kids and their (02:18:46) development but also the impact it's had (02:18:48) on him and the meaning he has in his (02:18:50) life. and he's one of those fathers that (02:18:52) um walked away from the corporate world (02:18:54) and made a decision to prioritize the (02:18:56) three little children that he's brought (02:18:57) into this world. And it's really like (02:18:59) kind of blew open my own I guess (02:19:02) stereotypes and presumptions that I had (02:19:04) about the role that I have when I become (02:19:06) a dad. And now much of the reason I have (02:19:08) these conversations and enjoy your work (02:19:10) so much is because it's a further (02:19:12) reminder that um the narrative I've (02:19:13) believed around fathers being this you (02:19:15) know kind of distant uh being that (02:19:17) floats in and out in provides you blow (02:19:21) it open and you blow it open from a (02:19:23) anthropological perspective and (02:19:25) evolutionary perspective and a (02:19:27) neuroscience and biological perspective (02:19:29) which I think is really critical and I (02:19:30) think because of that there's going to (02:19:31) be so many kids that have better (02:19:33) development outcomes and so please do (02:19:35) keep doing the work you're doing and I'm (02:19:36) very excited for your upcoming book. (02:19:38) Thank you so much. Thank you for being (02:19:39) here. Really appreciate you. Thank you. (02:19:40) Thank you. (02:19:44) [Music] (02:20:01) [Music]