JONATHAN HAIDT on the Impact of Social Media on Kids and Why It’s Healthy to Challenge Them | IMO (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) My daughter was described by her third (00:00:02) grade teacher as a giant ball of (00:00:04) sunshine and um and she still is. I love (00:00:07) that. Um and I never let her on social (00:00:10) media. She's 15. She wants Snapchat. All (00:00:12) her friends are on it. I've not I have (00:00:14) not let her have it. But I hear so many (00:00:16) stories from parents whose daughters (00:00:18) were also giant balls of sunshine and (00:00:20) then they got Instagram in fifth, sixth, (00:00:23) seventh grade and then they stopped (00:00:24) being giant balls of sunshine and (00:00:26) they're anxious and they're comparing (00:00:28) themselves and they're focused on their (00:00:30) skin and their hair and their bodies. So (00:00:34) what so I think a lot of parents can (00:00:36) recognize this um even if it's not in (00:00:38) every single family, it's in something (00:00:40) like every third family. So everybody (00:00:43) knows a family that has a daughter (00:00:45) especially who got on social media and (00:00:46) became depressed, anxious, (00:00:48) self-conscious. (00:00:51) [Applause] (00:00:54) This episode of IMO is brought to you by (00:00:57) Progressive Insurance and Pinesol. (00:01:01) Hi Craig Robinson. How are you? I'm (00:01:03) terrific. How are you? Good. You're (00:01:06) looking pretty uh even. (00:01:08) That's because I'm wearing makeup. Let's (00:01:11) see that. I think it's good now. You (00:01:13) know, lights, camera, action. You know, (00:01:16) you need to have be be blended just like (00:01:19) the rest of us. I am very (00:01:21) self-conscious. I I mean, I've worn (00:01:22) makeup before, you know. Have you tell (00:01:24) me more about that? I'm a color (00:01:26) commentator for ESPN. That's right. (00:01:28) That's right. But that you're not on the (00:01:30) screen very much, so it's very light. (00:01:32) And I do it I did it myself, so I just (00:01:34) like powdered it up. Yeah. They let you (00:01:37) do your own makeup. They do all you. (00:01:39) You'd be surprised how many sports (00:01:42) analysts do their own makeup on the (00:01:43) road. You should have told me. I could (00:01:44) have helped you out. Well, Kelly took me (00:01:47) to the Max store and we matched up some. (00:01:50) I wish I had been there for that trip. (00:01:53) Wow. Yeah. My big brother at the Max (00:01:55) store. Oh, it was it was it was tough (00:01:57) tough tough. Anyway, but you're looking (00:01:59) good. I feel good. I feel good. Yeah. (00:02:02) Yeah. I mean, we're back in LA. Yes. (00:02:05) Yeah. It's It's always good to be in LA (00:02:08) in this beautiful Airbnb. Are you (00:02:11) staying at an Airbnb again? I am. I am (00:02:14) staying at the same one. Uhhuh. Yeah. (00:02:16) So, we we we we got some stuff to talk (00:02:19) about today. We do. We do. So, you know, (00:02:21) we our our our show today is going to be (00:02:23) about technology and kids in technology. (00:02:26) And this is a really interesting one (00:02:28) because um when we were t setting up the (00:02:31) show, our producers were asking us about (00:02:34) our our relationship with technology. (00:02:37) And for us, it was like the television (00:02:40) growing up, right? That was don't watch (00:02:42) too much TV, it'll rot your mind out, (00:02:46) right? When there were only like seven (00:02:48) channels. I know. I know. And and I (00:02:51) think back to the rule that mom had for (00:02:54) us was we could each watch one hour of (00:02:58) TV a night. You remember that? Yeah, I (00:03:02) sort of do. But I think I was usually (00:03:03) doing homework. I mean, you were the one (00:03:05) that would get through your homework and (00:03:06) get your hour in. I never really focused (00:03:09) on that hour cuz I was really trying to (00:03:11) get my homework done. you were trying to (00:03:13) get your homework done, but I remember (00:03:14) colluding in making sure that our hours (00:03:18) didn't overlap so that we could really (00:03:20) get two hours in. (00:03:23) That sounds like some strategy you'd be (00:03:25) putting out there. I can't believe you (00:03:26) don't remember that because it was it (00:03:28) was a real thing. But what what I wanted (00:03:32) to point out was we were so busy like (00:03:35) you with homework, me with homework and (00:03:37) sports or whatever that there were many (00:03:40) nights we couldn't use that hour. That's (00:03:42) right. That's right. Even our parents (00:03:44) who were not college educated workingass (00:03:46) folks, they understood that we didn't (00:03:49) need to be in front of a screen um for (00:03:52) the limited time that we could have. You (00:03:54) you didn't have 24-hour uh television on (00:03:58) at all. You didn't have all day kid TV, (00:04:01) right? Television. Kid TV happened on (00:04:04) Saturday morning. Yes. It you woke up (00:04:07) early to get the first cartoon which was (00:04:10) at 6:00 a.m. And you could maybe watch (00:04:13) cartoons until 11:30 11. And then we (00:04:17) were outside. (00:04:19) But in between that, I have to throw in (00:04:21) there, you had to get the chores done, (00:04:23) the Saturday chores done. (00:04:25) You had to get either get your chores (00:04:27) done before the cartoons came on or (00:04:29) before you went outside after they were (00:04:31) off. Yeah. Yeah. Well, now they call it (00:04:34) how we were raised is now titled free (00:04:37) range parenting, you know, like it's (00:04:40) some, you know, animalistic out in the (00:04:43) era. I mean, and so free range parenting (00:04:46) was essentially how everybody our (00:04:48) generation was raised. you know, your (00:04:51) parents really didn't know that much (00:04:53) about what you were doing and didn't (00:04:55) feel like it was their obligation or (00:04:57) duty to know everything that you were (00:05:00) doing, you know. So, the independence (00:05:01) started with parents just our our (00:05:04) parents loved us and were involved, (00:05:06) engaged. our my mother was on the PTA, (00:05:10) but the notion that our parents thought (00:05:11) that they were responsible for us (00:05:14) getting our homework done or even us (00:05:17) getting up in the morning or getting us (00:05:20) to school or getting us to our (00:05:21) activities. That was not something that (00:05:24) our parents' generation believed in, (00:05:27) right? So I guess as a result most of (00:05:30) our generation we were free range you (00:05:32) know and during those times we were just (00:05:34) out and about playing on our own (00:05:36) figuring it out figuring it out you know (00:05:39) learning about the world how to deal (00:05:41) with friends and people who weren't (00:05:43) friends and as a matter of fact do you (00:05:45) remember when I used to go to the park (00:05:47) and stay all day mom would say you have (00:05:50) to come back and check in that was our (00:05:52) version of the cell phone right she just (00:05:54) wanted to know you were alive she just (00:05:55) wanted to know everything was Okay. And (00:05:57) I remember I'm playing in a in a (00:05:59) basketball game at the park and the (00:06:01) game's over. I race back home and I (00:06:05) scream up to mom on the back porch, I'm (00:06:07) back. She's like, okay. And then I run (00:06:09) back to get in the next game. But that (00:06:11) was how we were all raised. And I think (00:06:14) that that set us up for owning our own (00:06:17) lives in a way that I think um some kids (00:06:21) today (00:06:23) don't perhaps because parents we've (00:06:26) overpared and I think some parents are (00:06:29) denying their kids that opportunity to (00:06:32) uh experience the success and confidence (00:06:35) of doing some things on their own (00:06:36) because we're just protecting them too (00:06:39) much. We're protecting them from (00:06:40) everything. And I see it in coaching (00:06:42) now. Yeah. we may have overdone it. We (00:06:44) may be a little too coddling. And so (00:06:47) therefore, when it comes to social (00:06:48) media, we don't know how to say no. Um, (00:06:52) but these are some of the things we'll (00:06:54) we'll we'll talk about. Um, I I (00:06:57) certainly understand, you know, how (00:06:59) challenging it can be. I mean, when I (00:07:02) was uh raising the girls in the White (00:07:04) House, I mean, we had to think really (00:07:07) long and hard about their access to (00:07:09) social media. Mhm. They were coming up (00:07:11) right at the sort of beginning of (00:07:14) Snapchat and Instagram. So, it wasn't (00:07:16) they didn't really feel the kind of (00:07:18) pressure that probably you as the father (00:07:20) of younger kids are experiencing today. (00:07:25) Um, and it was still unknown territory. (00:07:28) Um, so I think a lot of parents are (00:07:31) struggling with this. You know, we're (00:07:33) struggling with how do we not over (00:07:35) parent? How much do we parent? How much (00:07:38) freeranging do we do? And then how does (00:07:40) that affect how we manage our kids (00:07:43) social media? Um, and we've got a a a (00:07:47) great expert on board. Well, yes. So, we (00:07:49) fortunately we have somebody who knows (00:07:52) this more than than we do. So, um, our (00:07:56) our guest today is John Height. And I (00:08:00) have been excited about this ever since (00:08:02) we booked him. So, uh, I would like to (00:08:06) read part of his bio because he begged (00:08:08) me not to read the entire thing because (00:08:10) it is fascinating and I wanted to read (00:08:12) every bit of it. But, uh, John Height is (00:08:16) a social psychologist at New York (00:08:18) University Stern School of Business. He (00:08:21) received his PhD from the University of (00:08:23) Pennsylvania and I'm not going to hold (00:08:25) that against him because I'm a Princeton (00:08:26) guy in 1992 and taught for 16 years in (00:08:30) the department of psychology at the (00:08:32) University of Virginia. In his most (00:08:34) recent release, The Anxious Generation: (00:08:38) How the Great Rewiring of Childhood is (00:08:40) causing an epidemic of mental illness. (00:08:43) He brings to light the great rewiring of (00:08:45) childhood in which playbased childhood (00:08:48) has been replaced by phonebased (00:08:51) childhood. With that, please welcome (00:08:54) John Height. John, welcome. John, (00:08:58) thank you so much for being here. (00:09:00) Thanks. Super pleasure. Yeah. Good to (00:09:02) see you. (00:09:04) Welcome. Welcome to the table. We got an (00:09:07) expert that actually knows something. (00:09:09) Um, and not just in this area, but (00:09:11) you're a parent, too. Mhm. Grappling (00:09:13) with this issue. That's right. My (00:09:15) daughter is 15. My son is 18. You're in (00:09:18) the thick of it. That's right. That's (00:09:20) right. But it sounds like you guys (00:09:21) basically already covered it. It's the (00:09:23) over parenting and the technology. Like (00:09:25) you got it. Okay. We can go deeper, but (00:09:27) those are the two main ingredients. (00:09:29) Well, tell let's just start by telling (00:09:30) us why you wrote your latest book. (00:09:34) So my my main line of research is on (00:09:36) democracy. What social media is doing to (00:09:39) liberal democracy. Democracy is a (00:09:41) conversation, but what happens when that (00:09:43) conversation moves on to Twitter? Um, (00:09:46) there's growing evidence that that (00:09:49) something about social media and all the (00:09:51) time the kids are spending on phones, (00:09:53) there's a lot more evidence now linking (00:09:55) that to mental illness, especially (00:09:57) anxiety and depression. So, I ended up, (00:09:59) even though I was going to write a book (00:10:00) on democracy, I ended up just focusing (00:10:03) on this because nothing could be more (00:10:04) important than this. If we don't get (00:10:05) this solved, there's no point in working (00:10:07) on democracy. got to have a strong next (00:10:09) generation to handle this American (00:10:11) experiment. You say something very (00:10:13) clearly um that I didn't realize and (00:10:17) wondered about when I was parenting when (00:10:19) this you know this this technology came (00:10:22) to be is is this harming our children? (00:10:26) Um because I I can say honestly that the (00:10:29) that that we weren't sure because there (00:10:31) was the push between okay this is (00:10:33) something that's out there you it's (00:10:35) giving our kids access to limited (00:10:38) amounts of information they're linking (00:10:40) up this all should be good you know it's (00:10:43) being marketed to us as a very good (00:10:45) thing um but I can say now that that was (00:10:48) the question among my group of parents (00:10:50) is like is this okay? How much is too (00:10:53) much? And now we have can we say a (00:10:57) definitive answer? I mean can we say (00:10:59) that now because that's that's the (00:11:01) question that people have. I'll say (00:11:03) definitive and I'll defend it. I think (00:11:04) it's really important to trace out how (00:11:06) this all started cuz as you said you (00:11:08) know parents they were giving their kids (00:11:09) the device or maybe you weren't giving (00:11:10) it but your kid like you know so many of (00:11:13) my family videos when my son was one or (00:11:15) two end with iPhone iPhone like they (00:11:17) desperately wanted it and you give it to (00:11:19) them and they're happy and they're quiet (00:11:21) and you can do your work. Mhm. A lot of (00:11:23) people say, "Oh, this is just like the (00:11:25) moral panic over television. Oh, we'll (00:11:26) get used." Like, no, this is actually (00:11:28) really different from television. And (00:11:30) the other piece is that you guys were (00:11:32) talking about just how much fun you had (00:11:34) outside and how important that was. (00:11:37) Well, outside has gotten a lot less fun (00:11:39) for our kids cuz there aren't any other (00:11:40) kids out there and um we just don't have (00:11:44) that expectation anymore. Yeah. Well, (00:11:46) it's also, you know, it changes the (00:11:50) expectation for parenting and there is a (00:11:53) level of sort of chaos and uncertainty (00:11:55) and, you know, not pleasantness when it (00:11:58) comes to managing your kids and having a (00:12:01) household and a lot of parents want none (00:12:03) of it now. That's right. It's almost (00:12:05) like, okay, I want now I want my child (00:12:08) to be absolutely silent. And it was it's (00:12:11) perhaps easier to hand a kid a phone so (00:12:14) that they are absolutely quiet and there (00:12:16) is absolutely no fighting. Right. That's (00:12:19) right. That's right. And in the long (00:12:22) run, that's going to block their (00:12:23) development as you were just saying, (00:12:24) it's going to be there's going to be (00:12:26) conflicts, but that's actually that's (00:12:28) actually nutritious. That's right. John, (00:12:30) can you elaborate on the four pillars (00:12:34) that you lay out in your book for our (00:12:36) listeners? and we're going to get to our (00:12:38) question, but there's so many questions (00:12:40) we have of you and really appreciate (00:12:42) your time, but I can you elaborate a (00:12:44) little bit on those four pillars. So, (00:12:46) let me let me just first say I can (00:12:48) summarize the book with a single (00:12:49) sentence, which is that we have (00:12:51) overprotected our children in the real (00:12:53) world and we have underprotected them (00:12:55) online. Phones are experience blockers. (00:12:57) So, we interfered with their (00:12:58) development, their social development, (00:13:00) intellectual development, sexual (00:13:01) development, all of those things. So, (00:13:03) we've got to stop. And the reason why (00:13:06) it's so hard for us is that any parent (00:13:09) who says, "No, you're not doing this. (00:13:11) I'm not giving you a phone." We all get (00:13:13) the same thing. But mom, I'm the only (00:13:16) one. Everyone's making fun of me. I (00:13:18) don't know. So, and it breaks our heart. (00:13:20) And then we, you know, usually we we (00:13:22) give in. Okay. Okay. But there'll be all (00:13:24) kinds of restrictions, but then it's (00:13:25) impossible to enforce. Mhm. (00:13:28) [Music] (00:13:34) This episode of IMO is brought to you by (00:13:37) Indeed. Are you starting to think about (00:13:39) the next step in your career? Or maybe (00:13:41) you're thinking about making a career (00:13:43) change. Indeed is the only place you (00:13:46) need to actually find better work. Just (00:13:49) update your Indeed profile with your (00:13:51) skills, experience, and salary (00:13:53) expectations to start finding better (00:13:55) work. (00:13:56) You'll automatically be matched with (00:13:59) jobs that match what you're looking for. (00:14:02) The skills I've learned as a player have (00:14:04) followed me throughout my career. From a (00:14:07) business person to a coach to an (00:14:10) executive in sports, it all came down to (00:14:13) the same three things: hard work, (00:14:16) discipline, and the ability to work with (00:14:18) a lot of different personalities. (00:14:21) You don't have to have it all figured (00:14:22) out. It's all about getting yourself in (00:14:25) the game. So when better opportunities (00:14:28) come your way, you're ready to jump in. (00:14:31) Update your Indeed profile and get (00:14:33) matched with better work today. This (00:14:36) episode of IMO is brought to you by (00:14:38) Colag Guard, a non-invasive colon cancer (00:14:41) screening test. As it stands, colon (00:14:44) cancer is on the rise in people under (00:14:46) 50, which is why the American Cancer (00:14:49) Society recommends that if you're at (00:14:51) average risk, you begin screening at 45. (00:14:55) Even if you live a healthy lifestyle and (00:14:57) don't have symptoms, no one is at low (00:15:00) risk for colon cancer. We want to make (00:15:03) sure our listeners know that colon (00:15:05) cancer can be treatable in nine out of (00:15:08) 10 people. But the key here is that it (00:15:12) has to be caught early. With the Colag (00:15:15) Guard test, you can take control of your (00:15:17) colon cancer screening through a (00:15:19) prescriptionbased test with none of the (00:15:22) prep that's required of a colonoscopy. 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Do not use a Colagard (00:16:19) test if you have adenomas, have (00:16:21) inflammatory bowel disease and certain (00:16:24) hereditary syndromes or a personal or (00:16:27) family history of colarctal cancer. The (00:16:30) Colagard test is not a replacement for (00:16:33) colonoscopy in high risk patients. Colag (00:16:37) guard test performance in adults ages 45 (00:16:40) to 49 is estimated based on a large (00:16:44) clinical study of patients 50 and older. (00:16:47) False positives and false negatives can (00:16:49) occur. Colag Guard is available by (00:16:52) prescription only. (00:16:56) [Music] (00:16:59) So the key here is collective action. (00:17:02) That is we have to do things together. (00:17:04) We have to make it a norm and then we're (00:17:06) not each alone to enforce it. So here (00:17:09) are the four norms. No smartphone before (00:17:11) high school. Just give them a flip phone (00:17:13) or a basic phone. Mhm. No social media (00:17:15) before 16. Social media is just wildly (00:17:18) inappropriate for minors for children. (00:17:21) Phone free schools. We couldn't bring (00:17:23) our television set into school. That (00:17:24) would be madness. But yet we let kids (00:17:26) bring in this multi-enter entertainment (00:17:28) computer. And the fourth is far more (00:17:30) independence, free play, and (00:17:32) responsibility in the real world. It's (00:17:34) not just about taking away the screens. (00:17:36) It's about restoring a fun, exciting (00:17:38) childhood. Typically, the kids raise (00:17:41) each other in the sense of there there's (00:17:44) a kid community. There's a kid group of (00:17:45) mixed ages as you guys had. And you (00:17:47) learn so much from your older sibling. (00:17:49) And you learned, you didn't learn so (00:17:51) much from her directly when she was (00:17:52) little, but you learned how to take care (00:17:53) of Well, you learned how to take care of (00:17:54) her. You learned how to look out for (00:17:56) her. You learned responsibility when you (00:17:59) were three. What did you learn when you (00:18:00) were three? I was so smart. She She We (00:18:03) were joking before we got on. She took (00:18:05) over when she was four. Took over the (00:18:08) whole family. But John, I I mean, you (00:18:12) set it out so clearly, so simply, so and (00:18:15) and such a it's it is so utterly doable. (00:18:19) Yeah. That's why I love your book and I (00:18:22) love the way you um just sort of make it (00:18:25) plain to parents because to many people (00:18:28) this feels like an impossible task and (00:18:32) the the four things you lay out are (00:18:34) completely within our control. One other (00:18:37) thing that I want you to point out (00:18:40) before we get to the caller question is (00:18:42) the impact of social media on our kids (00:18:46) mental health. I mean because again it's (00:18:49) not it's something that I don't think a (00:18:51) lot of parents are making that link. Um (00:18:54) and I I I want to be real clear here (00:18:57) that there is a real correlation between (00:19:00) um our children's depression higher (00:19:02) rates of depression and anxiety. You (00:19:04) talk about that. John, can you say a (00:19:06) little more about that? That's right. (00:19:08) Well, I'll start with just the intuitive (00:19:09) and I'll give you the data. The (00:19:11) intuitive is things like this. So, my my (00:19:14) daughter was described by her third (00:19:15) grade teacher as a giant ball of (00:19:17) sunshine. And um and she still is. I (00:19:20) love that. Um and I never let her on (00:19:23) social media. She's 15. She wants (00:19:25) Snapchat. All her friends are on it. (00:19:26) I've not I have not let her have it. But (00:19:29) I hear so many stories from parents (00:19:32) whose daughters were also giant balls of (00:19:33) sunshine. and then they got Instagram in (00:19:36) fifth, sixth, seventh grade and then (00:19:38) they stop being giant balls of sunshine (00:19:40) and they're anxious and they're (00:19:42) comparing themselves and they're focused (00:19:43) on their skin and their hair and their (00:19:46) bodies. So, what so I think a lot of (00:19:49) parents can recognize this um even if (00:19:52) it's not in every single family, it's in (00:19:54) something like every third family. So, (00:19:56) everybody knows a family that has a (00:19:58) daughter especially who got on social (00:20:00) media and became depressed, anxious, (00:20:02) self-conscious. uh when you look at at (00:20:04) how much social media time kids spend (00:20:07) for boys the the correlation is there (00:20:09) but it's very small for girls it's much (00:20:11) bigger so the girls who are using social (00:20:14) media 3 four 5 hours a day are two to (00:20:17) three times as depressed as the girls (00:20:19) who are using it 1 hour or less so we (00:20:21) have correlational evidence we have (00:20:23) there's experiments about getting kids (00:20:25) off they get benefits if they stay off (00:20:26) for at least a week or two so I think (00:20:28) the evidence is increasingly strong (00:20:30) again there is a debate there are (00:20:31) psychologists who disagree with (00:20:33) But I think because we all see it, the (00:20:35) parents see it, the teachers see it, the (00:20:37) psychotherapists see it, the coaches see (00:20:39) it, everyone sees something has gone (00:20:40) terribly wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we (00:20:44) we're going to keep talking about this, (00:20:46) but we want to get to our our listener (00:20:48) question, which is from Josie in Santa (00:20:51) Cruz. And um Natalie, we are ready for (00:20:56) our question. Let's do it. Hi Michelle (00:20:59) and Craig. My name is Josie and I live (00:21:01) in Santa Cruz, California. I am a parent (00:21:05) to two wonderful girls, ages 5 and 11. (00:21:08) With the younger one, I'm having a hard (00:21:10) time setting boundaries around screen (00:21:12) time. My husband and I both work (00:21:15) full-time, and we tend to hand her an (00:21:17) iPad whenever we need a moment to (00:21:19) ourselves. She's now clearly hooked on (00:21:22) it and moody when we take it away. Also, (00:21:25) because we don't live in a bubble, it (00:21:27) feels difficult to keep her away from (00:21:29) screens in general when the other kids (00:21:32) she knows are just as into the screen as (00:21:34) she is. Of course, I have a similar (00:21:37) problem with my 11-year-old and social (00:21:39) media. Some of her friends have their (00:21:41) own accounts already. I haven't given (00:21:44) into her demands to have her own yet, (00:21:47) but it's becoming harder and harder to (00:21:49) put it off, and it's really starting to (00:21:51) consume our relationship. My question is (00:21:54) simple and I think it's one a lot of (00:21:56) parents can relate to. What do we do (00:21:59) about our kids' addictions to screens (00:22:01) and social media? I want nothing more (00:22:04) than for my daughters to be resilient (00:22:06) and self assured people all on their (00:22:07) own. But in the modern world where (00:22:10) screens are ubiquitous and social (00:22:12) interactions happen mostly online, it (00:22:14) really feels like a monumental task to (00:22:16) make that happen. What can I do to set (00:22:19) up my daughters to have healthy (00:22:21) relationships outside of screens and (00:22:23) social media with their friends and most (00:22:26) importantly with themselves? Thanks for (00:22:29) your help, Josie. Yeah. Okay. So, that (00:22:32) that is the perfect question. Uh because (00:22:34) in the anxious generation, I especially (00:22:36) focused on teenagers because that's (00:22:38) where the data is best. I didn't talk as (00:22:40) much about little about younger kids, (00:22:42) but I keep getting this question because (00:22:44) parents with younger kids are exactly (00:22:46) like like like your listener. And so (00:22:48) here's a few things I can share. Just (00:22:49) from what I heard in her question, I (00:22:51) think there's three there's three (00:22:52) principles I want to put on the table. (00:22:54) Dopamine, friend, friends, and stories. (00:22:57) Let's keep those three things in mind. (00:22:59) So dopamine is this really important (00:23:01) neurotransmitter. It's a chemical in the (00:23:03) brain that's related to reward and (00:23:05) motivation. When something feels good, (00:23:07) the dopamine comes out and that feels (00:23:09) great. But it's not like that feels (00:23:10) great, you're done. It's that feels (00:23:12) great, let's do it again. That feels (00:23:13) good, let's do it again. And we've all (00:23:14) seen this with kids. Again, again, (00:23:16) again. And so you want your kids to have (00:23:18) slow dopamine. You want your kids to (00:23:20) struggle at something, work at (00:23:21) something, they train to do a layup, and (00:23:23) then they do it, and then they get the (00:23:24) dopamine. That is great. What the tech (00:23:27) companies did is they figured out a way (00:23:29) to hack the system. They figured out, (00:23:31) hey, let's give the kids some dopamine (00:23:33) without having them do anything. just (00:23:35) swipe or touch or whatever. No skills (00:23:36) learned. So quick dopamine is really bad (00:23:40) for your kids. You want to keep them (00:23:41) away from quick dopamine. Now like with (00:23:43) junk food, if you let them play video (00:23:44) games for an hour a week, that's totally (00:23:46) fine. But when your kids are playing (00:23:47) video games or other screen other (00:23:49) dopamine quick things like that 2 or (00:23:51) three hours a day, now you're changing (00:23:53) their brains. The dopamine is circuits (00:23:55) are responding getting less sensitive to (00:23:57) dopamine. So they need more. And I know (00:23:59) this is relevant to your listener (00:24:01) because she said that the daughter gets (00:24:03) moody when you take it away. It sounds (00:24:04) like an addict. Exactly. Exactly. It is (00:24:07) because dopamine is the exact (00:24:08) neurotransmitter that is involved in all (00:24:10) addictions. And when you take the drug (00:24:12) away, you feel terrible and then you (00:24:15) just need the drug back to feel normal. (00:24:17) So that's the bad news is that's the bad (00:24:19) news to your listener is that in a sense (00:24:21) your kid is an addict. But here's the (00:24:22) good news. Just as the brain adapts (00:24:25) after a week or two, it adapts and gets (00:24:26) addicted. you go cold turkey, it just (00:24:29) takes a week or two for the brain to get (00:24:31) back to normal. So that's the first, (00:24:32) let's just keep that in mind. Now that's (00:24:34) still hard advice because we all face (00:24:35) this like the kid freaks out. But you (00:24:39) know what? A lot of parenting is like (00:24:40) this where you have to go through the (00:24:42) hard period. So I'll just share the (00:24:43) story of how how my wife and I when we (00:24:45) had our first uh our first child, our (00:24:48) son, um at about four or five months, we (00:24:50) decided to ferberize him. I know this is (00:24:52) you know people debate about this. And (00:24:55) how long did it take before your (00:24:56) daughters got it? Well, I didn't want to (00:24:58) do it, right? Um, Barack did it and I (00:25:01) don't know that I could have done it (00:25:02) because I wasn't sure about it. The (00:25:04) notion that you just let the little (00:25:06) person that you've loved the most cry (00:25:08) and cry and cry. I couldn't even and (00:25:10) maybe it was something about estrogen (00:25:13) and my response to the crying. Um, so we (00:25:16) set it up where Barack took the night (00:25:18) shift, I went to bed, which was helpful (00:25:20) because it got me some sleep. Um, I (00:25:23) would have to cover my ears so that I (00:25:25) couldn't literally hear the crying and (00:25:28) it took no longer than a week. Exactly. (00:25:31) And it was really after the first two (00:25:34) nights that it, you know, because we (00:25:37) started early. Um, it was How old month? (00:25:40) Uh, it was uh when we weaned her off of (00:25:43) breastfeeding, which was 4 months, 5 (00:25:45) months, so it was very early. So she (00:25:48) learned quickly, right? Um, the sooner, (00:25:51) this is the point to Josie, the sooner (00:25:53) that you start um sort of removing the (00:25:57) the symptom, the the the quicker you (00:25:59) start to implement the action, the more (00:26:02) responsive the child is sooner. Your (00:26:05) family story is exactly my family story. (00:26:07) Um, we read this book by uh Ferber, how (00:26:11) it's about sleep training. I forget the (00:26:12) the title, but the key idea was so (00:26:14) simple. The key idea is all mammals (00:26:17) sleep. All mammals dream. All mammals (00:26:20) wake up briefly and go back to sleep. (00:26:21) Wake up briefly. So we all do this and (00:26:23) the the infant has to learn like, oh, I (00:26:25) wake up, I can go back to sleep. I don't (00:26:27) need the breast. I don't need to be (00:26:28) rocked and held. Like you wake up, you (00:26:30) go to sleep. Back to Jos's question. So (00:26:32) yes, she's moody when you take it away. (00:26:34) And if you were to go cold turkey, it's (00:26:37) going to be hard for a little while. (00:26:38) Now, you want to give her lots of other (00:26:39) fun things to do. And that brings us to (00:26:40) the second thing I said. I said dopamine (00:26:43) and then friends and then stories. So, (00:26:46) um the devices are more engaging than (00:26:48) anything in the real world. They're more (00:26:50) engaging even than your friends in the (00:26:52) short run, but in the long run, you have (00:26:54) a lot more fun out with an afternoon (00:26:56) with your friends than you do an (00:26:58) afternoon on TikTok. Um and so we we (00:27:02) have to not just be taking away the (00:27:04) screens from our kids. We have to be (00:27:05) giving them back a fun and exciting (00:27:07) childhood. So, I'd say to Josie, find (00:27:09) someone. find some other some girl who's (00:27:13) who your daughter knows and talk to (00:27:15) their parents. This year, now that (00:27:17) everyone's talking about the book, (00:27:18) everyone's talking about this, you will (00:27:20) find some other parents who agree with (00:27:21) you and form a pact um where you're (00:27:25) going to say, you know, we're going to (00:27:26) try to get our daughters together uh in (00:27:28) fairly unsupervised. Like you drop them (00:27:30) off, you know, I'll be there, but we'll (00:27:32) let them play. You know, at seven, they (00:27:33) don't need constant supervision. Um, so (00:27:36) the more you can give them give them fun (00:27:39) real world analog friendship, the easier (00:27:42) it is to wean them off the screens. (00:27:44) That's the second principle. And then (00:27:46) the third is stories. Cuz I'm not saying (00:27:48) some people interpret me to be saying, (00:27:50) oh, you know, screens are the devil. (00:27:51) Never let them watch screens. And in the (00:27:53) book, I didn't say a lot to counter that (00:27:56) view, but now I'd like to, which is what (00:27:58) I'm coming to see in in in thinking (00:28:00) about this and dealing with my own kids, (00:28:02) um, is this insight, which is that (00:28:05) humans are storytelling animals. That's (00:28:08) who we are. We every culture, we tell (00:28:10) stories, we raise our kids on stories, (00:28:11) we have myths, we have religious. So (00:28:13) stories are good. And a TV screen is a (00:28:17) pretty good way to present stories. Um, (00:28:19) and so if you So the, so here's the best (00:28:23) thing you could do. Watch a 90minute (00:28:25) movie with your kid or the siblings (00:28:28) together. So watching a long story in a (00:28:32) social setting on a TV set, that's (00:28:34) great. I'm not saying 5 hours a day, but (00:28:37) you know, even an hour or two a day is (00:28:38) probably fine. Not for two, three year (00:28:40) olds, but you know, by seven, eight, (00:28:42) fine. Here's what's really bad. (00:28:45) not a TV screen but a touchscreen device (00:28:48) which is not just entertainment it's (00:28:50) training your child because they touch (00:28:51) they get a reward they get the dop they (00:28:53) touch they get a reward and before you (00:28:55) know it they're addicted so touchscreen (00:28:57) device is much worse than a TV um (00:29:00) watching it alone is much worse than (00:29:01) watching it uh with a friend and (00:29:04) watching short stuff and moving around a (00:29:06) lot is fragmenting your attention (00:29:08) whereas watching a movie is teaching you (00:29:10) to pay attention to a story for 90 (00:29:12) minutes so what I would say is Don't (00:29:14) think about screen time. Think about (00:29:16) story time and fragmenting time. How (00:29:19) much story time should your kids have? I (00:29:21) don't know the answer, but you know, I (00:29:24) mean, an hour a day should be fine. (00:29:25) Watching movies with So, story time is (00:29:28) generally a good thing. Just don't go (00:29:30) too far. How much fragmenting time (00:29:32) should How much time on TikTok should (00:29:33) they have? I think zero. I think zero is (00:29:35) a pretty good number for fragmenting (00:29:37) time. (00:29:40) [Music] (00:29:45) We're so thrilled that Pinesaw is a (00:29:48) partner of IMO. Pinesaw has been (00:29:51) connected to our family forever. To this (00:29:54) day, whenever my sister and I catch the (00:29:56) scent of Pinesaw, we automatically feel (00:29:58) better about life. The smell of pines (00:30:01) has always taken us back to our (00:30:03) childhood home. It is amazing how smells (00:30:06) can transport you to a place or a moment (00:30:09) in time. Another smell that takes me (00:30:12) back is cherry blossoms, which always (00:30:14) remind me of visiting Michelle in DC. 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Door (00:32:49) Dash is offering our listeners 50% off (00:32:52) up to $15 when you spend $15 or more on (00:32:55) your next order at the florists, (00:32:58) grocery, retail, or convenience stores. (00:33:00) Use code IMO50 at checkout. Terms apply. (00:33:05) Thanks again to Door Dash, your goto for (00:33:08) making someone's day even from afar. (00:33:11) Whether it's flowers, a meal, or a sweet (00:33:14) treat, Door Dash makes it easy to show (00:33:16) appreciation no matter where you are. (00:33:22) [Music] (00:33:25) You know, you talk about dopamine for (00:33:28) kids. Um, you know, as you as I hear (00:33:31) Jos's question, I hear the the question (00:33:34) the the parenting question, the par the (00:33:37) new parenting trap, which is parents (00:33:40) suffer from this dopamine thing too when (00:33:43) it comes to parenting because we want (00:33:46) instant reward response from our (00:33:49) children. Um, we don't want to wait. Um, (00:33:53) we don't want to do the longer whole (00:33:55) thing. You know, a lot of times we have (00:33:57) to ask our ourselves, are we doing this (00:33:59) for our kids or are we doing this for (00:34:01) us? Because we're we we have the screen (00:34:04) too and we're we we're being trained on (00:34:08) that instant gratification that, you (00:34:10) know, m maybe the 90minute story is a (00:34:13) problem for us because we can't sit (00:34:15) still. That's right. The bottom line is (00:34:17) that we've got to get tougher. We've got (00:34:20) to get more resilient for our kids. Um (00:34:23) because I know time and time again that (00:34:25) a lot of parents do what's easy for (00:34:28) them, (00:34:30) you know, and not necessarily what's (00:34:32) best for the kid. The intent is there, (00:34:35) the love is there, but I think we've (00:34:38) gotten really confused that we're we're (00:34:41) we're kind of hooked on instant (00:34:43) gratification. That's right. You know, (00:34:45) we want silence. We want we we want (00:34:47) everybody harmony. Harmony. Instant (00:34:50) harmony. Uh, Craig, what? No, I was I (00:34:52) was just thinking about how our parents (00:34:54) parented and what my mom would say about (00:34:58) saying no. Is that it's not just saying (00:35:02) no. It's (00:35:05) holding your no accountable. Mhm. It is (00:35:09) um explaining why you're saying no and (00:35:12) it's outlasting your kids. Yeah. And (00:35:16) that is what I see that parents aren't (00:35:19) doing today. And I wanted to get your (00:35:21) take on that. And maybe there's a way we (00:35:23) can help Josie because you have to be (00:35:27) able to outlast a whatever year old as (00:35:30) an adult. That's how I look at it. I'm I (00:35:32) am not going to let a 2-year-old or a (00:35:36) six-month-old or a 15year-old outlast me (00:35:40) on something that I know is right. (00:35:43) That's right. There's so much in what (00:35:44) you what you both just said. Um, so I'll (00:35:46) start with this idea of outlasting. (00:35:49) So, so the key idea I want to put on the (00:35:50) table here is called anti-fragility. We (00:35:52) treat our kids as if they're fragile and (00:35:54) we don't want any harm to come to them. (00:35:56) We don't realize or we forget, which our (00:35:58) parents knew, is that our kids are (00:36:00) anti-fragile, which means they actually (00:36:03) need to fall down sometimes so they (00:36:05) learn how to not fall down. They need to (00:36:07) be in fights so they learn how to get, (00:36:09) you know, how to deal with it. They need (00:36:10) to be excluded sometimes to learn how to (00:36:12) deal with exclusion. We can't be jumping (00:36:13) in all the time. Um, you want to (00:36:16) frustrate your kids every day because (00:36:18) learning to deal with frustration is how (00:36:20) you create an adult that other people (00:36:22) are going to want to hire or marry. (00:36:24) Well, this is we talk about this uh all (00:36:27) the time. Um, so the one thing I would (00:36:30) say to Josie, you know, understand that (00:36:32) your children are not your friends. You (00:36:35) love them deeply. And if you do it (00:36:37) right, if you set some boundaries now, (00:36:40) give them a lot of nos with a lot of (00:36:42) love. M and a lot of encouragement. But (00:36:44) if you set really clear boundaries that (00:36:47) you believe in and you stick to all the (00:36:49) time all the time, kids are just they (00:36:52) they are waiting for you. That's right. (00:36:54) They need structure. They respond to it (00:36:55) and they're waiting for you to go back (00:36:57) on your word. They're waiting to see how (00:36:59) long it will take. How many times can I (00:37:02) outlast you? Because as I say, they got (00:37:06) time on their hands. Kids don't have (00:37:08) jobs. They have no responsibility. (00:37:10) They're not paying bills. All they have (00:37:12) time for is to outlast you. To wear you (00:37:14) down. To wear you down. That's right. (00:37:16) That's That's well put. That's really (00:37:17) well put. The way you described it makes (00:37:19) me think of of Dr. Becky Kennedy talks (00:37:21) about a lot about this about your job as (00:37:23) a parent. Your your job is to set the (00:37:25) boundaries and choose what's safe and (00:37:26) what's proper for their development. (00:37:29) Their job is to experience negative (00:37:31) emotions and learn how to deal with it. (00:37:33) They can't have everything they want. (00:37:35) And she uses the analogy of in some ways (00:37:37) you're the pilot of an airplane. Mhm. (00:37:40) The pilot is not our friend. The pilot (00:37:42) is not there to make us feel good. If (00:37:44) I'm flying to LA and there's terrible (00:37:47) weather in LA and the pilot says, "Oh, (00:37:50) I'm sorry. We're going to have to (00:37:51) reroute to Salt Lake, no I I need to get (00:37:54) to LA." And the pilot is like, "Oh, (00:37:56) yeah. I don't want to let you down. (00:37:58) Okay, we'll go to LA." Like, no, no, no. (00:38:00) You know, and so if you get if the pilot (00:38:03) gets new information that's relevant to (00:38:04) the safety of the passengers, it is (00:38:06) obligatory for the pilot to take that (00:38:08) into account and do what's in the (00:38:10) interest of the passengers in terms of (00:38:11) their safety. So similarly, we all gave (00:38:14) our kids, most of us gave our kids (00:38:16) screens way too early, the touchcreens, (00:38:18) we didn't know. And now we have new (00:38:20) information and it's like, you know, you (00:38:22) know, storm system over LA, we can't (00:38:24) land there. And so I would say to Josie, (00:38:26) I know it's really painful. It's (00:38:28) difficult to take the iPad away, but you (00:38:31) can do it. You can say, "I've got new (00:38:33) information and I love you too much to (00:38:35) let you have this thing change your (00:38:36) brain." I can also say, "I've now I'm (00:38:39) now working with a lot of Gen Z." So, so (00:38:42) there's so many wonderful things about (00:38:43) Gen Z. They they they see the problem. (00:38:45) They understand what's happening to (00:38:47) them. A lot of them want to fix it. They (00:38:48) want to address. A lot of them are (00:38:49) writing about it. Um, you will often (00:38:51) find members of Gen Z who say in their (00:38:54) 20s, talk to the ones in their 20s, and (00:38:55) they will often say, um, "I'm so glad my (00:38:59) parents didn't give me a phone or social (00:39:01) media until later." What you'll never (00:39:02) hear is a 23-year-old Gen Z saying, "I (00:39:05) wish my parents had given me a (00:39:06) smartphone and social media in middle (00:39:08) school." So, it's hard now. Uh, but (00:39:11) stick it out and find a couple of other (00:39:14) families. It'll be so much easier cuz (00:39:16) your kids are terrified of being the (00:39:17) only ones. Now Craig, you as a coach, (00:39:20) you know, you've also seen this and some (00:39:22) parents will be able to see themselves (00:39:23) in I I I I I would echo everything you (00:39:27) said and then layer on top your theory (00:39:31) of anti-fragility (00:39:33) and sports was always the place where (00:39:36) you sort of had some (00:39:40) where you learned how to deal with (00:39:42) adversity, right? Toughening. And I am (00:39:45) just amazed at the number of parents who (00:39:48) are trying to shield their children from (00:39:51) that adversity. And those are the (00:39:53) biggest lessons that I think you learn (00:39:55) in sports. And this new wave of (00:39:58) children, they don't understand really (00:40:00) what team is because they're all (00:40:03) independent contractors puppeted by (00:40:05) their parents, right? Oh, no. And u so (00:40:09) that's what I'm seeing as a coach and it (00:40:11) just it it it it worries me and it makes (00:40:15) me think how can we encourage parents to (00:40:19) set these boundaries and that these nos (00:40:22) and sometimes over know it but (00:40:25) understand we're doing this the right (00:40:28) way and it it's and and and not turn (00:40:32) them into these swooping in helicopter (00:40:36) parents. (00:40:37) I've got four kids, two older, two who (00:40:41) are still well 15 and 13 and 32 and 28. (00:40:46) Okay. And (00:40:49) um I've tried to parent them the same (00:40:53) ways, right? Right. There's there's hard (00:40:56) parenting and then there's an (00:40:59) explanation for why we're doing it the (00:41:01) way we're doing it. And but to get back (00:41:03) to this to this screen time stuff, (00:41:09) the 32 and 28-year-olds, (00:41:11) they didn't, to your point, they didn't (00:41:14) have the smartphones yet, right? They (00:41:16) didn't go through puberty with they (00:41:17) didn't go through puberty with them. So, (00:41:19) it was really easy to say, okay, no (00:41:22) phones until you got to high school, no (00:41:24) social media stuff until you got to 16. (00:41:28) It was really easy because there were (00:41:30) more people like that. So, uh, but it (00:41:34) would have been easy for the way we were (00:41:36) raised, it would have been easy to say (00:41:37) it anyway because with our younger kids, (00:41:40) I have seen exactly what you said and (00:41:43) I've seen it through my own eyes because (00:41:46) when people send me a Tik Tok and I look (00:41:49) at that and I'm cracking up, I flip to (00:41:52) the next one and I know better. I know (00:41:54) better. And I'm cracking up again and I (00:41:57) flip to the next one. And then I (00:41:58) realized my 15 and 13year-old, they (00:42:02) don't have the willpower. They have a (00:42:05) little they have less willpower than I (00:42:06) do. So we have gotten to the point where (00:42:10) it's one hour of social media. You or (00:42:13) one hour of Instagram. That's all they (00:42:15) have is Instagram every day. So that's (00:42:16) seven days a week. Uh one hour a day. (00:42:19) Seven days a week. Seven Seven. No, on (00:42:21) the weekend. On the weekend we're so (00:42:25) busy Mhm. we can say you can spend as (00:42:29) much time as you want knowing they don't (00:42:31) have any time to spend on it. So it's (00:42:33) it's a little trickeration there where (00:42:35) we're like making them feel like oh man (00:42:38) can't wait till the weekend comes. Mhm. (00:42:40) But when they're when I'm I'm thinking (00:42:43) about what you were saying about the (00:42:45) dopamine, the friends and the stories. (00:42:47) The friends part for us is we've got a (00:42:51) good group of close friends who are (00:42:54) operating the same way. Great. Do the (00:42:56) kids hang out with each other in person? (00:42:58) They hang out in person and they play (00:43:00) games together online. Oh, online can (00:43:04) but but they still get together in (00:43:05) person. I mean, you know, it we're a (00:43:08) sports family, so we've got (00:43:11) outside and and and in the winter time (00:43:13) it's a little hard. So, I wanted I (00:43:15) wanted to hear more about what we can (00:43:18) tell Josie on how to get back to where (00:43:23) she should be because it's I am well (00:43:26) aware of what you're talking about and (00:43:27) it's hard. Yeah. So, okay. So, I'll (00:43:30) share a few ideas. Um, you know, and (00:43:33) I'll share my own my own experience and (00:43:34) my own mistakes. So, when I started this (00:43:37) whole project, I was focused on social (00:43:39) media as the bad thing. And I was in a (00:43:41) debate with other researchers who (00:43:43) saying, "Well, total screen time doesn't (00:43:44) correlate as much." And so I thought, (00:43:46) "Well, okay, maybe it's not the phone. (00:43:47) Maybe it's just social media." So I did (00:43:49) a really good job keeping my kids off (00:43:51) social media until they were 16. Mhm. Um (00:43:54) uh but I didn't I didn't pay enough (00:43:58) attention to to the computer and the (00:44:01) fact and of of course also during COVID (00:44:03) they both were on their computer all day (00:44:04) long. What were they doing? They were (00:44:07) watching The Office and other shows on (00:44:09) Netflix over and over and over again. (00:44:11) They spent I mean h you know thousands (00:44:13) of hours they spent just watching stuff (00:44:15) when we thought they were in school. And (00:44:17) so what I wish I had done and here's a (00:44:19) policy I would recommend to everybody (00:44:20) with younger kids and even to Josie even (00:44:23) though you've already given them an (00:44:24) iPad. Um I think the policy should be no (00:44:28) screens in the bedroom ever. You start (00:44:30) off with that policy when they're young. (00:44:32) Yeah. You make it. Now, now you can (00:44:33) still have a screen in your bedroom (00:44:35) because don't worry, your kids are will (00:44:37) point it out, but they're not really (00:44:38) copying you. They want to do what other (00:44:40) kids are doing. So, if you have a (00:44:41) policy, no screens in the bedroom ever, (00:44:43) which is what a lot of us have when we (00:44:44) were kids. You couldn't have a (00:44:45) television your bedroom. That'd be (00:44:46) crazy. That's right. Now, at a certain (00:44:48) point, maybe middle school, you're going (00:44:49) to have to relent and say, "Okay, you (00:44:51) can take your laptop into your bedroom (00:44:53) or you can take the family laptop into (00:44:55) your bedroom to do." So, you might (00:44:56) relent, but you establish the principle (00:44:57) early that screens don't belong in (00:44:59) bedrooms. Bedrooms are a place to to (00:45:01) sleep. their place to do hobbies or (00:45:03) whatever it else you do. My daughter has (00:45:05) a sewing machine in her bedroom. Um so I (00:45:07) wish I'd done that and Josie can still (00:45:09) do that. So um uh so you can certainly (00:45:13) put restrictions on and that's where and (00:45:14) what some people who study this you know (00:45:17) the the really terrible things the (00:45:19) talking with extortionists with people (00:45:21) are blackmailing you with people who are (00:45:23) after sex or money that especially (00:45:26) happens overnight when kids are in bed (00:45:28) with a phone under the blanket and for (00:45:31) hours and hours they're missing out on (00:45:32) sleep. So so no screens in the bedroom (00:45:35) ever. You can start with have that (00:45:37) policy. Um, and the other thing is (00:45:40) beware of the 7-day a week thing (00:45:42) because, you know, an hour a day, 7 days (00:45:44) a week, that is enough to get the brain (00:45:46) kind of adapted to it and the habit. And (00:45:49) so, uh, you know, I can't prove this (00:45:51) yet, but I think a wiser policy is to (00:45:53) have some like just on weekends, like, (00:45:55) you know, I didn't let my son play any (00:45:56) video games when he was in sixth grade, (00:45:58) any online video games. And he does kind (00:46:00) of resent me for that because that's (00:46:02) where all the boys were. Now 10 15% of (00:46:04) those boys got addicted. Their brains (00:46:06) are changed. they might be diminished (00:46:08) for life. So, you know, I'm not I don't (00:46:10) think I necessarily made the wrong (00:46:11) decision, but what I could have done is (00:46:13) to say to my son, you can play Fortnite (00:46:15) for 1 hour a day on Saturday and 1 hour (00:46:18) a day on Sunday. Then at least he he (00:46:20) could talk with other boys about the (00:46:22) game he could have. So, u So, I would (00:46:24) just say beware of anything that's (00:46:26) everyday. If you have clear boundaries, (00:46:28) there's a lot less fighting. Whereas, if (00:46:30) it's an everyday, there's there's more (00:46:31) risk of of addiction. Yeah. (00:46:34) [Music] (00:46:40) This episode of the IMO podcast is (00:46:43) brought to you by BetterHelp. How many (00:46:46) times a day do you compare yourself to (00:46:48) others or wish your life looked like (00:46:50) someone else's? We all do it sometimes (00:46:53) because it's easy to envy friends lives (00:46:56) on social media when you only see the (00:46:58) good parts. But you know what they say, (00:47:00) comparison is the thief of joy. And in (00:47:03) reality, nobody has it all together. (00:47:06) Therapy can help you focus on what you (00:47:08) want instead of what others have. Like (00:47:11) that career goal you set your sights on, (00:47:14) or that relationship you want to grow, (00:47:16) or that daily habit you want to get (00:47:18) into. Because your best life is always (00:47:21) better than the idea of someone else's. (00:47:24) We believe in therapy at IMO and we've (00:47:27) seen firsthand how beneficial it is to (00:47:30) invest in your own well-being. You know, (00:47:33) this reminds me of my teams when I (00:47:36) coach. Back in my day, we didn't have (00:47:38) therapists assigned to the team. And (00:47:41) boy, it sure would have been nice to (00:47:43) have the access to Better Help so I (00:47:45) could send my players to someone who I (00:47:47) could trust and was reputable. (00:47:50) BetterHelp has experienced therapists (00:47:52) ready to help you with challenges (00:47:54) ranging from anxiety and relationships (00:47:57) to stress. It's convenient, too. You can (00:48:01) join a session with the click of a (00:48:03) button, helping you fit therapy into (00:48:05) your busy life. And you deserve that. (00:48:08) It's time to stop comparing and start (00:48:10) living with BetterHelp. Visit (00:48:13) betterhelp.com/imo (00:48:15) today to get 10% off your first month. (00:48:19) That's betterhelp hp.comimo. (00:48:24) [Music] (00:48:30) The real, you know, the the unavoidable (00:48:32) aspect to all of this, unfortunately for (00:48:35) Josie, is that there there will be (00:48:37) parental pain. Mhm. Yeah. you know, and (00:48:40) I and I just think that, you know, why I (00:48:42) spend so much time talking about that is (00:48:45) that I I think that in addition to (00:48:48) social media, the the tech industry, the (00:48:51) way people's minds work, that we have to (00:48:55) become a little more resilient as (00:48:58) parents. Yeah, we have to become (00:49:00) tougher. We have to become tougher for (00:49:03) the sake of our kids. Um, and I I just (00:49:06) don't think that there's any way around (00:49:08) making this easy for parents. And I (00:49:10) think that that's what we Parenting is (00:49:12) never easy. It's not supposed to be. And (00:49:14) it's not fun. All of it is going to be (00:49:17) really, really hard and not physically (00:49:20) hard. Not. It's going to be emotionally (00:49:23) um one of the toughest things you do (00:49:26) because the the the little child that (00:49:28) you brought into this world that you (00:49:30) will love beyond anything you can (00:49:33) imagine. That's right. You will be (00:49:35) disappointing them and and and scaring (00:49:38) them and making them hurt and arguing (00:49:40) with them and doing all the things that (00:49:42) you don't want to do with your best (00:49:44) friends. M um but in the end as parents (00:49:48) you know we are responsible for securing (00:49:52) the safety and the health of the (00:49:54) children we bring into this world and (00:49:56) and that means once we know that (00:49:59) something is isn't good for them you (00:50:02) know and now what you're saying we know (00:50:04) even though there are arguments we are (00:50:06) we are getting the data we and we are (00:50:08) seeing it with our own eyes in our own (00:50:10) homes that this generation of children (00:50:13) they are more depressed They are (00:50:15) struggling with anxiety, the higher (00:50:18) rates of suicide. I mean, if this if (00:50:20) these weren't real statistics, we (00:50:22) wouldn't be talking about this. That's (00:50:24) right. But there there is a connection. (00:50:27) We do know that now. We we didn't know (00:50:30) that, you know, one generation ago, but (00:50:33) we we have the data now. And so that (00:50:36) means that we've got to do the hard (00:50:37) thing. We've got to take the the (00:50:40) substance from the addict. Yeah, that's (00:50:43) right. And it's not going to be fun. (00:50:45) That's right. But what I can promise (00:50:47) parents is that it's going to be easier (00:50:49) going forward than it was a year or two (00:50:51) ago. Yeah. Because this the danger began (00:50:54) to be coming into view around 2019. And (00:50:57) Gene Twanky, who really first diagnosed (00:50:59) this in her book, I 2017, she and I were (00:51:02) saying by 2019, what kids really need is (00:51:05) a lot less time on screens, a lot more (00:51:07) time outdoors playing. And then CO comes (00:51:10) in and what do they get in New York (00:51:12) City? They locked the playgrounds. It (00:51:14) was horrible. All you know, all kids (00:51:16) could do was sit and rot on their (00:51:17) screens all day. So, we were confused (00:51:19) for a number of years. Uh, and during (00:51:21) that time, a lot of resignations set in (00:51:24) in parents. People saying, "What are you (00:51:26) going to do? The genie's out of the (00:51:27) bottle, the toothpaste is out of the (00:51:28) tube, the trains left the station, the (00:51:30) technology is here to stay." People felt (00:51:32) powerless. And Josie and Josie conveyed (00:51:35) that too. We all feel powerless when we (00:51:36) try to do it alone. What I can promise (00:51:38) you, Josie, what I can promise all the (00:51:39) parents out there is if you step up now, (00:51:42) if you say if you if you talk to other (00:51:45) parents, you're going to find allies. If (00:51:47) you talk to your your students, uh your (00:51:48) your your kids teachers, you're going to (00:51:50) find allies. Talk to the principal, (00:51:52) you're going to find allies. If you (00:51:53) initiate something, you're going to find (00:51:56) people are ready to stand up. And it (00:51:58) doesn't matter if they're on the left or (00:51:59) the right. We're all united by being (00:52:01) parents. We're all united by being human (00:52:03) beings. And as you're saying, we see (00:52:04) what it's doing to us. Yeah, we have (00:52:06) problems with it. And so, of course, (00:52:08) it's wreaking havoc on our kids (00:52:10) development. John, before we sort of sum (00:52:13) up for Josie sort of next steps for her (00:52:17) in in the (00:52:20) realm of making the changes that you (00:52:23) talked about sort of the uh um (00:52:27) not seven days a week. Have you seen or (00:52:30) is there any data or have you seen (00:52:32) anecdotally where you've seen results in (00:52:36) teenagers where they've been able to (00:52:38) turn it around? Oh yes. So there's hope. (00:52:41) Oh yes. Oh my goodness. I'm so glad you (00:52:43) you you asked this question. Uh because (00:52:45) sometimes I go on about the mental (00:52:47) illness and it all seems so depressing (00:52:49) and so terrible. And parents with (00:52:52) younger kids love my book. Okay, we're (00:52:55) on this. We're doing this and that. (00:52:56) parents with teenagers who already have (00:52:58) a phone, they're like, "Oh my god, what (00:53:00) have we done?" So, let me give everybody (00:53:02) some hope here. I teach I'm a professor (00:53:04) at New York University. I teach a course (00:53:05) in a business school called Flourishing (00:53:08) uh for the undergraduates and I a (00:53:10) version called work wisdom and happiness (00:53:12) for the MBA students who are older. And (00:53:14) what what I find over and over again (00:53:16) with the undergraduates is first, as I (00:53:19) said, they're not in denial. They know (00:53:21) there are problems. They want to grow. (00:53:23) They want mentorship. They want to be (00:53:25) successful. And so if you once you get (00:53:27) them on board on the project and you lay (00:53:30) out, you know, the course is designed (00:53:32) around three goals. We're going to try (00:53:33) to make you uh stronger, smarter, and (00:53:36) more sociable. And stronger means (00:53:38) emotionally stronger. Okay? And they (00:53:40) they they yes, they want to do that. Um (00:53:43) and then we go through some of the (00:53:45) foundations like, okay, let's let's look (00:53:46) at the foundations of flourishing. Are (00:53:49) you getting enough sleep? And a third of (00:53:51) them are not. And so, okay, you you guys (00:53:53) you need to work on your sleep first. If (00:53:55) if you know if you're getting 6 hours or (00:53:57) less and you're feeling tired during the (00:53:58) day, you got to start there. And there's (00:54:01) a national epidemic of sleeplessness (00:54:02) which causes loss of learning, (00:54:06) mental health problems. So we say, (00:54:07) "Okay, you you start working on your (00:54:09) sleep." Um, how many of you are spending (00:54:10) more than two hours a day on social (00:54:12) media? And that'll be like, you know, a (00:54:14) quarter or a third of them. But my (00:54:16) students who are hooked on social media, (00:54:18) some in every class, there's always one (00:54:19) kid who's spending six hours a day on (00:54:21) Tik Tok. Six hours a day just on Tik (00:54:24) Tok. And when they and they're 19 years (00:54:26) old, when they for their project they (00:54:28) say, "Okay, I'm going to quit or I'm (00:54:30) going to reduce it to, you know, even (00:54:32) just one hour, they get the most (00:54:34) spectacular results." And what always (00:54:35) happens is they report all these other (00:54:38) benefits that they didn't even expect, (00:54:40) you know, like I can do my homework. (00:54:43) Like it I used to think I had no time (00:54:44) for homework, but I get my homework done (00:54:46) and I have three hours left in the (00:54:48) evening, so I go out with a friend. Oh, (00:54:49) good. You're going out with a friend. (00:54:51) That's great. Um, and and they they just (00:54:55) become more confident because you can't (00:54:56) do anything in this life if you don't (00:54:58) have your attention and these are (00:55:00) business students. They want to be (00:55:01) successful. So it starts with regain (00:55:03) control of your attention and if you do (00:55:05) that you can then go on and do great (00:55:06) things. So I want to reassure everybody (00:55:08) out there that while it's going to be (00:55:10) tough for Jenz overall because we (00:55:12) deprive them of a lot of these growth (00:55:13) experiences we're talking about. But any (00:55:15) single one of them who commits to (00:55:17) regaining their attention, cultivating (00:55:20) healthy habits, they're going to get (00:55:21) amazing results. The brain isn't really (00:55:24) done sort of like locking down into its (00:55:26) adult form until around age 25 is when (00:55:28) the frontal prefrontal cortex finishes. (00:55:30) So if you have a late teenager or kid in (00:55:32) early 20s, they can really turn their (00:55:34) lives around. I look, we can all turn (00:55:36) humans are amazing. You can turn your (00:55:37) life around at 30 or 42. But but it's (00:55:40) going to be a lot easier if you do it (00:55:41) while you're still below 25. Yeah. Well, (00:55:43) that's great. That's good. Good. Well, (00:55:46) thanks for that cuz we needed that. (00:55:48) Yeah, but uh we we've we've covered a (00:55:51) whole lot of really neat stuff here for (00:55:53) Josie. And I I want to make sure that I (00:55:57) don't leave anything out. I think the (00:56:00) the the (00:56:01) most important thing for Josie that I (00:56:04) heard was you can't be afraid to say no (00:56:07) and you can't be afraid to start over (00:56:09) and say, "Okay, this is how we're going (00:56:10) to operate." That's right. That's one (00:56:12) thing. Mhm. And the no screens in the (00:56:15) bedroom, that's definitely that, right? (00:56:18) But it's a revelation to a lot of people (00:56:20) because that's something a lot of us (00:56:23) have given in on. Well, but also, John, (00:56:25) a point that you made is that uh some (00:56:28) adults don't do it because they have TVs (00:56:30) in their bedrooms, right? Um and this is (00:56:32) another thing. Yeah. No, life isn't (00:56:34) fair. That's right. I'm an adult. I can (00:56:36) do this. Look, I drive a car. You don't. (00:56:38) Right. Or even if even if mom's on the (00:56:41) phone, right? because mom hasn't broken (00:56:43) her addiction. You can say yes, I'm (00:56:45) doing it, but you have a different set (00:56:47) of rules. And the whole fairness, it, (00:56:50) you know, life life isn't fair. And (00:56:51) that's another lesson for kids to learn. (00:56:54) You know, that's right. Unfairness and (00:56:56) how to deal with that and mom got to do (00:56:58) something that I couldn't do or older (00:57:00) sister got to do it. I think it's okay (00:57:02) for kids to have a different set of (00:57:04) rules than their parents, especially if (00:57:06) their parents can't break their own (00:57:08) addiction. Yeah. Yeah. The agreed. (00:57:12) Agreed. And then just one more thing to (00:57:14) add for Josie just to really emphasize (00:57:15) at the end here is it isn't just about (00:57:18) taking away the technology. It's about (00:57:20) restoring a playbased exciting amazing (00:57:24) fun, adventurefilled, riskfilled (00:57:26) childhood. So when you look at it that (00:57:29) way, the deal is, yeah, I'm taking this (00:57:31) away from you and it's going to hurt for (00:57:33) a couple weeks. Um, but you're gonna (00:57:36) have a lot more fun in your childhood (00:57:38) and I've already talked with three of (00:57:39) your friends parents and we're going to (00:57:41) give you a better childhood. Um, so um, (00:57:44) so yeah, there's if you keep your eye on (00:57:46) childhood, not just on the screens, then (00:57:49) I think it's it's easier to see what you (00:57:51) need to do and what childhood should (00:57:53) look like, which is a lot of one-on-one (00:57:55) play in real life. What you guys I (00:57:57) listen to prepare for this, I listened (00:57:59) to a podcast discussion you guys did (00:58:01) like 5 years ago. Sounds like you guys (00:58:03) just had a lot of fun together. Well, it (00:58:05) was you were each other's playmates, (00:58:06) right? It was the way you grew up. I (00:58:08) mean, I I you you were raised that way. (00:58:11) Um, you know, we played a lot and we (00:58:13) played unsupervised and we had to make (00:58:16) stuff up and we had to, you know, we we (00:58:19) had to play with broken toys and learn (00:58:21) how to fix them make games with kids in (00:58:25) the neighborhood. Um, you know, the the (00:58:27) playgroup model is is is a good one. Um, (00:58:31) that's how I survived the majority of my (00:58:34) parenting. You know, we developed great (00:58:37) groups of of of friends with kids in the (00:58:40) same age. And a lot of times all we had (00:58:42) to do was put them in the basement. (00:58:44) Yeah, that's right. That's fine. They'll (00:58:46) find a way to entertain themselves. So, (00:58:48) so just two sources of information for (00:58:50) for all of your listeners. One is please (00:58:52) go to letgrow.org. It's an organization (00:58:55) I co-ounded with Lenor Scanazi, the (00:58:57) woman who invented the term freerange (00:58:59) kids that you were talking about. So, (00:59:01) letGGrow.org has all kinds of advice for (00:59:04) families and schools and how to give (00:59:05) your kid this fun, exciting childhood. (00:59:08) The other is the website for for my (00:59:10) book, but really it's become the website (00:59:11) for the movement. So, if you go to (00:59:12) anxiousgeneration.com, (00:59:14) excellent anxiousgeneration.com (00:59:16) and in the upper right corner there's a (00:59:18) box that says take action and then (00:59:20) there's a line for parents, a line for (00:59:23) educators, a line for legislators. We (00:59:25) have all kinds of tools to help you act (00:59:28) collectively because that's what this is (00:59:29) all about. It's hard to act, Josie. It's (00:59:31) hard to act if you're totally alone. I (00:59:33) get that. We all are facing that. But if (00:59:35) you but if we can do collective action, (00:59:37) then we can escape from this together. (00:59:39) Yeah, that's great. Great. Thank you, (00:59:42) John. Really appreciate you being here (00:59:44) and uh there's probably more we could (00:59:46) talk about. So, well, we'll we'll maybe (00:59:49) we'll get back phone handy in in a (00:59:51) healthy way. Happy to come back. We'll (00:59:53) do Yeah, let's do let's do an update on (00:59:54) parenting and coaching. And that's (00:59:56) right. Hopefully all we'll see some (00:59:58) progress. Well, thanks again. Great (01:00:00) advice, Michelle. Thank you, Craig. (01:00:01) Thank you. (01:00:03) [Music] (01:00:05) [Applause] (01:00:08) [Music]