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Title: Childhood Lies Making Us Feel Lost & Empty – How To Raise Mentally Resilient Children | Dan Siegel
Duration: 02:00:57
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one of my main areas of focus was parent
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states of mind and what that means is
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you can dive into the mind of you as a
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parent with something called the adult
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attachment interview and with the most
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robust power over anything else even
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someone watching you at home for a year
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we can predict how your child will be
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attached to you whether it's securely or
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non-se securely
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and that security of attachment to your
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child essentially predicts all sorts of
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things like your child emotional
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resilience their capacity for mutually
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rewarding relationships with others we
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call it an attachment stance or
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attachment strategy and security is what
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you want to aim for as best you can the
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great news from this field of attachment
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research which I'm trained in is that it
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isn't what happened to you that will
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determine if your child is securely
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attached to
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you it's how you've made sense of what
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happened to you
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and the importance of that finding
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cannot be overstated in other words
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people sometimes come to me and say oh
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terrible things happen to me in my
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childhood and I'll never get over it
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I'll never be a good parent I'll go wait
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a second wait a second the research
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shows that I know you're concerned about
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that but if you can make sense of your
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childhood experiences and how they
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affected you you can liberate yourself
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from perpetrating that which was done to
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you onto your kids so that I wrote up in
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a book with my daughter's preschool
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director Mary Hartzel called parenting
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from the inside out and once I wrote
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that book which starts with the science
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of attachment and now we'll talk about
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the ess's I could write all the other
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five or six or whatever parenting books
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I've written where I always say start
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with parenting from the inside out
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because that's what the research shows
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make sense of your own childhood
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experiences first yeah and then figure
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out what do I do with my kids yeah ain't
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that the truth when that book was first
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coming out one of my first teachers is
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Barry brazzleton a pediatrician back a
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while ago he passed away recently and
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you know when I said to Barry when
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should we give this to parents he said
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right away even when they're pregnant
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and I'm not sure pregnancy is the best
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time but
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definitely yeah yeah you you want to
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read it so that being said you know as
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an educator and as a you know therapist
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for families what I needed to do is take
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this entire field of attachment and make
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it really understandable not just for
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the academics I was working with but for
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parents so basically my summary of the
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entire field of attachment comes down to
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four S's and here they
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are when you get the first three S's and
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if you don't get them any of them the
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parent recognizes there's a rupture
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there's a
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disconnection and readily and reliably
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makes a repair so there's no such thing
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as perfect parent par ing is only
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showing up and being present as a parent
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with good intention and being aware
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being mindful so I say that because
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people freak out oh my I haven't been
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doing it if you haven't been doing it
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fine now you can make a repair it's
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never too late to make a repair so
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that's the important place to start and
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if you can be kind to your inner
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experience because we're all coming
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through a hard road yeah you know and
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parenting is one of the hardest things
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to do in general and these days
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especially so the first s is the word
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seen s en and when when a child feels
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seen it isn't just that you're using
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your eyes to see their behavior it means
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you're using what I call a mindsight
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lens to see their feelings what has
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meaning for them what was their
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intention what were they remembering the
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inner nature of their mental lives is
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what I mean by the word seen and it's
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very clear from the research parents who
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take the time and develop the skills
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because they learnable skills to see the
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inner life of the child have children
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who develop secure attachment okay
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second s soothed what this means is your
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child could be distressed they've gone
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through what I call a window of
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Tolerance they're in chaos they're in
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rigidity they're shut down you know
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those moments they're not in this kind
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of integrated flow and at that moment
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you yourself because of a set of neurons
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in you called mirror neurons which
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should have been called I think sponge
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neurons you sponge in your kids's
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distress so their distress may make you
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distressed so if you don't have your
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presence there where you're receptive
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you may become reactive even as they
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become reactive which just amplifies all
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the
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reactivity so soothing your child is
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more than oh let me just you know try to
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put a Band-Aid on their wound it's
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really giving them the comfort that
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allows them to see that I as your
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son can be as distressed as I can be
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and you don't leave
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me you stay present with me you're able
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to hold a space for my
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distress and in that connection you
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establish ah my nervous system which is
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immature is able to calm down and that's
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what we mean by
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soothing don't forget there's no such
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thing as perfect parenting you may not
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see your child all the time you we don't
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don't sue them all the time but to be
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able to do that and say wow that pushed
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my hot button I was having a hard time
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when you were screaming yelling like
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that let me try to come back and soothe
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you I'm so sorry I couldn't do it then
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you can make a repair repair repair and
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the the fourth the third s before the
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fourth of security the third s is safe
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so safe of course is keeping your child
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protected from injury but it's also not
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being a source of emotional
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fear where you know and I say this in
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all my books there are times when you
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know I would flip my lid and start
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screaming or say ridiculous things or
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whatever and I would terrify my kids I
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had to make a repair after that kids are
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meant to be kept safe by their
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attachment figures their parents and if
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we have unresolved trauma or unresolved
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loss the research is very clear we're
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more prone to doing things that we don't
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even want to do yeah that are
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unintentional that terrify our
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kids and even when we alter our own
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State cuz we're flipping out back and be
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terrifying if we get drunk that can be
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terrifying we're yelling at our spouse
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that can be terrifying and other ones
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that are obvious like abuse neglect yeah
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you know so there's a wide range of what
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creates non-safety and I don't mean a
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kid wants ice cream before dinner you
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say no and they go you make me mad you
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make me I want I no you don't this is
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not about just giving them everything
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they want it's about not terrorizing
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them yeah setting limits is extremely
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important for kids when they have this
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and when they're not there a repair made
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when there's a rupture in a reliable and
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relatively um rapid
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way then a child develops security which
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is this sense of wholeness this sense of
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resilience this sense of I can do this
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and you know we're still on a life of
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you know do or die you know in this
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world outside the womb so no matter how
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great our parenting is life is still
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hard but security of attachment gives
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the best kind of
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resilience that we can give our kids and
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the great news is that if you've had a
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really hard childhood
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yourself dive into parenting From the
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Inside Out Mary and I wrote that to be a
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big
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hug and it's a guide to saying how do I
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actually make sense in my life do that
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book it's a workbook yeah basically and
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the great news is and this is you know I
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was trained as a narrative scientist
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when our narrative process literally
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makes sense in the two ways that we mean
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it makes sense meaning what's the
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logical way my childhood affected me
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but makes sense as in I sense my body I
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feel these things you're able to
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integrate memory into things that were
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terrifying before and you integrate it
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and you make sense of your life and
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that's how you come to allow your
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personality to relax and stop being a
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prison become more like a playground it
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allows you to be more receptive with
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kind intention so intention for sure
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that's kind um and that's how we want to
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bring our presence to our kids and I
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love that Dan I mean you just set the
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stage for
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a second conversation at some point in
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the future because I'd love to dive into
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parenting but I think that's really
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helpful you want to help your kids feel
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seen soothed safe and when you can do
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that they will also feel
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secure if we look out across the world
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today there appears to be a lot of
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unhappiness a lot of struggle and a lot
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of
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division based upon what you know about
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human beings and our inner
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worlds why do you think there's so much
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struggle in the world and are you
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optimistic about the
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future I think there's an incredible
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potential that we as a human family have
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with awareness to make intentional
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choices that are different from what we
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do on
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automatic and so that's why I actually
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have a deep sense of hope a realistic
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hope an active hope that is based on
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scientific reasoning and based on
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clinical practice and just being a human
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thinking about where have we gotten
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ourselves that I'm very much optimistic
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and the reason even I think to dive
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deeply into your important question of
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why is because if we can figure out
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accurately what the truth of why is then
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we can figure out how to work with that
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why in a very productive and effective
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way so here's what I think is going on
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if you go back in time and you basically
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look at what has happened with our human
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species how we've evolved in modern
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times we became number one mammals so we
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became very social number two we became
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humans which our formal name is homo
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sapiens sapiens the seir is the word for
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the The Knowing so not only do we know
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we know we know which is where the hope
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lies because we can actually take this
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capacity for awareness for
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self-awareness and awaken ourselves from
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automatic pilot but what is the
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automatic pilot we've gotten into when
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you follow human evolution one way to
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understand it is that we
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survived based on in Group versus
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outgroup distinctions so he said if
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you're in my cave you're my family
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you're my friend
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we're going to protect each other we're
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going to cooperate collaborate we're
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going to get some creative unions that
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are allowing us to not only survive but
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we Thrive that's beautiful we're an
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incredibly collaborative
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species
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but if we deem that you're in cave B not
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the cave a members where we live and
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there's the cave B members if we can
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discern that these are not us we can
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keep them away and they won't threaten
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us we can keep our stuff once we start
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accumulating stuff and in this
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distinction then we could keep The
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Outsiders out the Insiders in and if we
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needed to unfortunately we could shut
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off our circuitry of empathy and
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compassion that we're using for the in
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group shut it off and sometimes injure
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if not kill the out group yeah and
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that's basically human evolution in the
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shortest version you'll ever hear but if
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you now expand the
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population where there's an experience
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of
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insufficiency where people are wanting
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to own land own things and you have
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modern
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culture unlike landbased indigenous
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cultures that teach the relationship of
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you as a human to the land is essential
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yeah the relationship of you to
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Generations that came before your
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ancestors and generations that are
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coming in the future The Descendants
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they're all a part of who you are
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there's an expanded definition of
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yourself that larger self connected to
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all people and to all of nature starts
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to become very narrowed down into what
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you can call a solo self this isolated
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separate solo self in indigenous
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teachings is something to be watching
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out for that as they say be careful of
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the vulnerability of thinking you're a
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separate self but in modern culture we
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take that word self
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and we equate it with the individual
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yeah and if you like me grew up in
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modern culture you'd say of course self
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means in individ individual but if self
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is really looked at as a center of
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experience it doesn't mean it has to be
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your skin incase body it could be your
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relationships with your family with your
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friends with all of humanity and even
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all of nature so we have a relational
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self and we have an inner self sure you
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have a body so I think what's happened
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is this inner self being equated with
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the only self that matters even if it's
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about a plural inner self like just my
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family or people who are like me my
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similar race or nationality or religion
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all the ways we divide ourselves up
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that's created this separation of people
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from each other that leads to genocides
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Wars continual fighting social injustice
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and
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racism and it even has us differentiate
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ourselves from other species so for
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building a factory to get more stuff for
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in group we don't care if we destroy the
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environment around the factory because
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we're building the stuff to get the
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money that we want and so we start
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destroying Earth and this is what I
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think is happening this solo self viw
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has been I think a source of all the
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pandemics we face not just causes for
(00:14:19)
the viral pandemic but these assaults on
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climate and assaults on our Humanity I
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really appreciate those answers
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um you know in your in your first
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response to my question
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about optimism and the state of the
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world I really felt that there's there's
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almost two choices we can make as humans
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we can either be
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intentional about our lives and create
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the lives that we want or we can be
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reactive and so you know I've been
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absorbed in your uh previous book uh
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interconnected for the last few weeks
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which I really enjoyed reading thank you
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um
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and I I'm sort of think a lot about like
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who are we really as humans because as
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you say about ingroup and outgroup it's
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fascinating because it seems to be
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certainly the online world at least
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seems to really drive people into
(00:15:18)
choosing their tribe who actually are we
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can we transcend some of our base level
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patterns of trying to other other people
(00:15:28)
so if you don't mind I just want read a
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phrase that you you wrote in in in your
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book the world is not always kind not
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always compassionate not always
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integrative our human history of
(00:15:43)
survival based Evolution leads us
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towards
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tribalism and adding to this
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tendency is our genetically inherited
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neurally mediated socially reinforced
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propensity toward
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ingroup and outgroup evaluation
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yeah so first of all I think there's a
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beautiful bit of writing there thank you
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but you know who are we like at our core
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who are we are we this reative species
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who's just trying to protect what's ours
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and make sure that we're okay and the
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people around us are okay or are we this
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more loving compassionate species who
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wants to thrive but as I thrive everyone
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around me also thrives as well yeah
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beautiful well thank you for uh pointing
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out that passage and um that was a a
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challenging and Incredibly um you know
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powerful experience to write that book
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to try to articulate coming from a
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culture of
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individualism why I thought
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individualism was actually the Splinter
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in the soul of the modern psyche that
(00:16:57)
was making us limp forward in life so
(00:17:00)
the optimism I feel is embedded in that
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um not only passage you wrote but your
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response to it which is that yeah I do
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think with
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intentionality with an Awakening of the
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mind to the lie that it's been told
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which is that the center of experience
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that we use the word self to
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indicate when that is being told to us
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as being the individual that's a lie
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of course you want the center of
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experience to be something you put
(00:17:33)
energy into take care of it protect it
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nurture it allow it to thrive
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absolutely and here's the strange
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thing if self is thought of as an
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identical term a synonym for
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individual we are
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sunk so the reason I spent all those
(00:17:54)
years writing that book interconnected
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was a plea to our fellow human human
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beings to
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say why can't we wake up to the
(00:18:05)
possibility that modern culture has been
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a case of mistaken
(00:18:10)
identity that by telling you okay you
(00:18:15)
know rangan who you are is you are just
(00:18:18)
that body you're in or Dan I'm just this
(00:18:20)
body and then uh do what you can to make
(00:18:23)
sure you're keeping the body healthy and
(00:18:25)
happy and if you want to get connected
(00:18:27)
to other bodies called your family great
(00:18:29)
and your friends great and protect them
(00:18:31)
and nourish them but be careful of the
(00:18:34)
ones that are not you you know whether
(00:18:36)
that's a not you human or a not you
(00:18:38)
species it's all about you you you you
(00:18:41)
you where you is considered your body or
(00:18:45)
your body plural you know people in this
(00:18:46)
in group so my hopefulness actually
(00:18:50)
especially after writing intraconnected
(00:18:52)
was you know when I had been in a forest
(00:18:55)
and you know with some colleagues alone
(00:18:58)
for 3 days days and then had this
(00:19:00)
experience of incredible openness of my
(00:19:03)
identity to being a part of the force
(00:19:05)
and aspect of all of nature when my
(00:19:08)
colleagues came out and said oh we were
(00:19:10)
interdependent and interconnected and
(00:19:11)
interwoven all the
(00:19:14)
iner prefixes to those
(00:19:17)
terms which means between it came time
(00:19:20)
for my turn to speak and I said I really
(00:19:25)
understand what you're saying but for me
(00:19:27)
the experience was not interconnected Ed
(00:19:29)
I was um I don't know I was like and I
(00:19:33)
and I couldn't find the word so I said I
(00:19:35)
was intraconnected there was a
(00:19:36)
connectedness within the hole that this
(00:19:39)
body called Dan was just a part of and
(00:19:42)
the body didn't disappear my identity as
(00:19:45)
Dan didn't disappear I knew there was a
(00:19:47)
Dan but I knew I was as much the trees
(00:19:49)
and the creek as this body called Dan so
(00:19:52)
I said interconnected and when I went
(00:19:54)
back to the place where we had
(00:19:55)
technology and I could type out some of
(00:19:57)
my notes from the three days quote alone
(00:19:59)
in the forest which is really more like
(00:20:01)
all one in the
(00:20:02)
forest the word processor would not
(00:20:05)
allow me to type interconnected without
(00:20:07)
changing it to interconnected and I
(00:20:08)
realized there was no word in English
(00:20:10)
for this connectivity within the whole
(00:20:14)
so the notion that yourself is yes in
(00:20:17)
your body and also your relationships
(00:20:20)
with other people even those that don't
(00:20:23)
have the same skin color religious
(00:20:24)
beliefs nationality geographical
(00:20:27)
location all that stuff that you are
(00:20:29)
part of a larger Human family and then
(00:20:32)
if you expand that relational self even
(00:20:34)
larger to expand it out to I'm all of
(00:20:38)
living
(00:20:39)
beings so that when you see a tree you
(00:20:42)
don't look at it as oh something I'm
(00:20:43)
just going to cut down I don't care but
(00:20:46)
you see it almost like you would see
(00:20:47)
your
(00:20:48)
leg and you wouldn't cut down your leg
(00:20:51)
so then when you start feeling that you
(00:20:53)
realize wow okay I am the Earth and I
(00:20:56)
say I am using the word I in a broad
(00:20:59)
sense so people wanted to know well can
(00:21:01)
I hold on to the individual that's me
(00:21:03)
and I go yeah they said well I don't
(00:21:05)
need to get rid of me I said no no no no
(00:21:07)
the idea is integration is you
(00:21:08)
differentiate your link so this is where
(00:21:10)
another word came up yeah me plus we is
(00:21:13)
this funny word in English mu mwe and
(00:21:17)
what's funny about that is people
(00:21:20)
realize they don't have to choose
(00:21:21)
between an inner self and a relational
(00:21:23)
self you are both and mu is just a fun
(00:21:26)
way to remind ourselves that we are both
(00:21:30)
a me and a we so so you can
(00:21:32)
be working on yourself expressing
(00:21:35)
yourself authentically trying to um
(00:21:40)
Master certain passions and pursue
(00:21:43)
certain things but that doesn't have to
(00:21:46)
come at the expense of the people around
(00:21:47)
you yeah you can do that
(00:21:51)
and you can support the people around
(00:21:53)
you other people don't have to lose in
(00:21:56)
order for you to win mhm
(00:22:00)
beautifully said and that's one of the
(00:22:02)
problems I think and that's one of the
(00:22:03)
things I feel that I developed as a
(00:22:07)
child is this idea
(00:22:10)
that which I've I feel I've mostly if
(00:22:13)
not all let go of now through you know
(00:22:16)
practices we can talk about perhaps but
(00:22:20)
this this realization
(00:22:22)
that I can win and people around me can
(00:22:25)
win yeah which is very freeing it's very
(00:22:28)
liberating so couple of questions which
(00:22:31)
and some of these I guess relate to your
(00:22:33)
upcoming book personality and wholeness
(00:22:35)
and therapy which I haven't read yet and
(00:22:37)
I'm looking forward to
(00:22:38)
reading but this idea of intentionality
(00:22:43)
are we living an intentional life or a
(00:22:45)
reactive life some of that I imagine
(00:22:48)
comes down to how you were raised as a
(00:22:50)
child if you were raised in an
(00:22:53)
environment of danger if you raised in
(00:22:56)
an environment where safety wasn't
(00:23:00)
felt you may have developed the uh world
(00:23:04)
viw that the world's not safe okay I
(00:23:08)
need to make sure I sort myself out
(00:23:12)
whereas if you were raised in an
(00:23:14)
environment
(00:23:15)
of uh of love and safety and there were
(00:23:19)
people around you were there to support
(00:23:21)
you your world of you is that Hey listen
(00:23:24)
world's good world's safe like it's cool
(00:23:27)
like I I I can win people around me can
(00:23:29)
win right so that that childhood piece
(00:23:33)
must be important I would imagine I know
(00:23:35)
you've written so many books on
(00:23:36)
parenting and you have some I'd love to
(00:23:38)
know some of your advice for parents
(00:23:40)
because the 4S's framework I think is
(00:23:42)
really really powerful but perhaps can
(00:23:44)
you just speak to that idea first how
(00:23:45)
much does your childhood upbringing
(00:23:49)
influence whether you live life
(00:23:52)
intentionally or reactively yeah so
(00:23:57)
having just finished this 20- year
(00:23:58)
project called personality and wholeness
(00:24:00)
and therapy um I'm going to try to make
(00:24:03)
this as uh succinct and directed toward
(00:24:07)
your question as I can but let's just
(00:24:09)
start with the fundamental view that you
(00:24:12)
know when your body is developing in the
(00:24:15)
womb and as a fetus you're growing you
(00:24:19)
are developing a nervous system part of
(00:24:22)
the influence on how that nervous system
(00:24:23)
would be shaped is your genetics you
(00:24:26)
know determining that you're a human and
(00:24:27)
not an elephant for example
(00:24:29)
but also shaping in part certain
(00:24:31)
propensities of your nervous system some
(00:24:34)
are just random experiences that happen
(00:24:36)
during gestation of how your nervous
(00:24:38)
system develops so now let's come to the
(00:24:41)
moment where you're
(00:24:43)
born you are born and at the moment
(00:24:45)
you're born you have something called
(00:24:47)
temperament and in this book I actually
(00:24:50)
proposed with my colleagues nine
(00:24:52)
different kinds of temperament so so
(00:24:55)
then depending on the temperament for
(00:24:58)
example
(00:24:59)
it looks like about a third of the
(00:25:02)
population has a temperament which
(00:25:04)
pushes towards agency where you really
(00:25:06)
want to make sure you're asserting your
(00:25:07)
embodied empowerment you're having a
(00:25:09)
sense of Competency and if it's
(00:25:11)
frustrated you feel irritated angry
(00:25:15)
Furious even that
(00:25:17)
temperament may make your experience of
(00:25:20)
being in the world uh when you're
(00:25:22)
talking about how is it can you give to
(00:25:23)
the larger good one way especially now
(00:25:27)
we're getting to the second layer if
(00:25:28)
your attachment is not
(00:25:31)
secure then you'll have a kind of a more
(00:25:33)
rigid way in which temperament turns
(00:25:36)
into
(00:25:37)
personality and then your anger may come
(00:25:40)
out more readily and you'll be more
(00:25:42)
likely to want to have your own things
(00:25:43)
done your own way this kind of thing
(00:25:45)
depending on there's lots of variations
(00:25:47)
that I talk about in that book but just
(00:25:49)
say that anger is your emotion that's
(00:25:52)
generated when you feel threatened and
(00:25:54)
we'll talk about that reactive State
(00:25:57)
versus what you're calling the
(00:25:58)
intentional state which is kind of
(00:26:00)
receptive open
(00:26:02)
State another group is more the bonding
(00:26:05)
group and that temperament makes you
(00:26:07)
more oriented towards having separation
(00:26:09)
distress and sadness so when you're
(00:26:12)
getting reactive you might get filled
(00:26:15)
with this distress about I'm not
(00:26:16)
connected I'm not connected because your
(00:26:18)
drive is for relational connection so
(00:26:21)
that would be a different way especially
(00:26:22)
with non-secure attachment you know then
(00:26:25)
you have a more rigid way your
(00:26:27)
personality is and you get more
(00:26:30)
threatened with a sadness and separation
(00:26:33)
distress and then the third broad
(00:26:35)
grouping that we've observed is that
(00:26:38)
it's about basically a drive for
(00:26:41)
certainty and predictability so you can
(00:26:43)
have safety and in that predictability
(00:26:45)
and certainty when it's not there and
(00:26:48)
you're frustrated you get anxious and
(00:26:50)
you get fearful okay so let me put
(00:26:52)
something to you something I
(00:26:55)
um have realized and experienced some my
(00:26:58)
own
(00:27:00)
life is
(00:27:02)
that certain things certain aspects of
(00:27:05)
who I thought I
(00:27:07)
was were not actually who I was they
(00:27:11)
were who I
(00:27:12)
became okay and I'll give you a concrete
(00:27:15)
example yeah now listeners of this
(00:27:17)
podcast may have heard this example
(00:27:19)
before so I'll try and sort of summarize
(00:27:20)
the essence because I I'd really love
(00:27:22)
your take on this I was brought up uh
(00:27:25)
two parent family older brother um my
(00:27:29)
parents were Indian immigrants to the UK
(00:27:31)
so Dad came in 1962 mom came in about 74
(00:27:35)
something like that
(00:27:36)
okay so in a lot of immigrant families
(00:27:41)
uh and I could speak for an Indian
(00:27:42)
immigrant family in the UK a huge
(00:27:45)
emphasis is put on academic
(00:27:49)
Excellence so I can
(00:27:52)
remember uh various incidents as a child
(00:27:55)
when I'd come back from school maybe at
(00:27:57)
5 or six or seven can't remember the
(00:27:59)
exact age with 19 out of 20 let's
(00:28:03)
say and there would never be a well done
(00:28:06)
it would always be what did you get
(00:28:08)
wrong oh my okay yeah um if I wasn't top
(00:28:12)
of the class it would like who came top
(00:28:15)
you know why weren't you top okay now
(00:28:18)
that may sound really toxic but and
(00:28:21)
maybe when I first came across this and
(00:28:23)
start to unpick my childhood I may have
(00:28:25)
considered it as toxic as well but I
(00:28:27)
don't anymore because I believe there's
(00:28:29)
multiple perspectives on every situation
(00:28:31)
so my parents facing the Discrimination
(00:28:34)
they face when they came to the UK back
(00:28:36)
then in their
(00:28:39)
heads the way that they avoid their
(00:28:42)
children facing the same problems is by
(00:28:45)
academic Excellence because academic
(00:28:47)
Excellence equates to being a doctor an
(00:28:50)
engineer or a lawyer which equates to a
(00:28:52)
good secure job right the problem for me
(00:28:56)
was and I of course wasn't aware of this
(00:28:59)
at the time and this is the story I now
(00:29:01)
tell myself as I reflect on my life and
(00:29:04)
try and use what I've learned from my
(00:29:07)
childhood to help make me a a better a
(00:29:10)
more calmer and more enlightened adult I
(00:29:13)
realized that I took on the belief at a
(00:29:16)
young age that I was only loved or I
(00:29:20)
felt I was only worthy of love when I
(00:29:23)
got full marks when I was top of the
(00:29:25)
class and
(00:29:26)
so for much of my life I consider myself
(00:29:30)
very
(00:29:31)
competitive if you talk to any one of my
(00:29:33)
close friends they will tell you rongan
(00:29:35)
is one of the most competitive people
(00:29:37)
you will meet I would not lose at
(00:29:39)
something be it snooker pool run
(00:29:42)
whatever it is I would make sure somehow
(00:29:46)
that I won right it's not a it's not a
(00:29:48)
very it's not a a very calm place to
(00:29:52)
live from and what would happen if you
(00:29:54)
didn't yeah this is really interesting
(00:29:56)
and and I only really discovered this
(00:29:57)
when writing my last book happy mind
(00:30:00)
happy life when I sort of realized I
(00:30:02)
actually didn't enjoy
(00:30:04)
winning I just couldn't stand the
(00:30:06)
thought of
(00:30:07)
losing right it's very very different
(00:30:10)
yeah but here's the interesting thing
(00:30:12)
Dan for
(00:30:13)
me I would have said I was competitive
(00:30:16)
my friends would say I was competitive I
(00:30:20)
thought oh that's who I am I'm
(00:30:22)
competitive but it it's not who I am it
(00:30:25)
it was who I became I am no longer compe
(00:30:28)
itive genuinely like by doing a variety
(00:30:31)
of different things including internal
(00:30:33)
family systems and all kinds of
(00:30:35)
different things which I've spoken about
(00:30:37)
before I've realized where that came
(00:30:40)
from I've moved Beyond it so in terms of
(00:30:43)
Personality some people would have said
(00:30:45)
well are your personality wrongness to
(00:30:46)
be
(00:30:47)
competitive and I guess we can talk
(00:30:49)
about the difference between
(00:30:51)
personality um and temperament and but
(00:30:55)
in essence what I'm trying to say is and
(00:30:58)
what try and explain to people is that
(00:31:00)
who you are today is not necessarily who
(00:31:02)
you are it may be or a large part of it
(00:31:05)
may be who you became I find that very
(00:31:08)
empowering because I now go oh well what
(00:31:11)
else about me potentially could I change
(00:31:14)
if I wanted to so I could tell you a lot
(00:31:16)
more but do please do well in
(00:31:21)
essence I feel a lot of people a lot of
(00:31:23)
my patients in the
(00:31:25)
past feel that the way they are is just
(00:31:28)
the the way they are well this is just
(00:31:29)
who I am and maybe part of it is who
(00:31:32)
they are but maybe a huge part isn't
(00:31:35)
maybe a huge part of who you think you
(00:31:36)
are is an adaptation to your childhood
(00:31:40)
for very good reason and so I I always
(00:31:43)
like to empower people so I believe that
(00:31:44)
we can change a lot more about our lives
(00:31:48)
than we give ourselves credit for I
(00:31:49)
think a lot of people feel that they're
(00:31:51)
stuck with what they consider to be
(00:31:54)
their personality but how much of their
(00:31:56)
personality is actually changeable and
(00:31:58)
was a response an appropriate response
(00:32:02)
because if you take my competitiveness
(00:32:04)
it's a genius adaptation if I think I'm
(00:32:06)
only getting love when I'm top well
(00:32:10)
developing the trait of being
(00:32:12)
competitive is going to help push me to
(00:32:15)
to be the top so I'll be loved right but
(00:32:18)
but as I've realized oh
(00:32:21)
actually I'm loved anyway I don't need
(00:32:24)
that right and that that's a you know
(00:32:27)
long story of how I got to that point
(00:32:28)
but I today I actually do
(00:32:32)
genuinely I I just feel bloody fantastic
(00:32:34)
then I feel calm I feel
(00:32:37)
non-reactive I feel that I see Joy
(00:32:40)
everywhere in the world I feel that I
(00:32:41)
try and operate from a place of Love
(00:32:43)
rather than fear in most of my
(00:32:46)
interactions so I'm I I share that
(00:32:49)
because I want people to know that you
(00:32:51)
can change so much about who you think
(00:32:54)
you are hey guys as you know sleep is a
(00:32:58)
crucial ingredient for our overall
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health and our longevity yet these days
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States Canada the UK Europe and
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(00:33:56)
conversation you know a lot about
(00:33:58)
personality you said this book is a
(00:34:00)
20-year project you've tried to
(00:34:01)
summarize in a book yeah do you have any
(00:34:04)
comments on what I've just shared with
(00:34:06)
you oh lots of comments first of all
(00:34:08)
thank you for sharing uh your personal
(00:34:11)
Journey uh it's very powerful to hear it
(00:34:14)
and you know I think the message you're
(00:34:18)
trying to give to everyone that be
(00:34:22)
careful when you think some aspect of
(00:34:25)
who you are and that's in quotes is
(00:34:28)
fixed yeah uh then you your own belief
(00:34:33)
that it's fixed may make it so right so
(00:34:37)
there's beautiful work by the scientist
(00:34:39)
Carol DW yeah on growth mindset versus a
(00:34:42)
fixed mindset where one of the things
(00:34:45)
you can study is personality and when
(00:34:48)
you believe that's changeable then
(00:34:50)
things are changeable on the other hand
(00:34:53)
uh there are ways of understanding for
(00:34:55)
example how the brain forms early in
(00:34:58)
life so in
(00:34:59)
Udo to create these things we call
(00:35:02)
temperament and you have kids I've got
(00:35:05)
kids who now adults um you know our two
(00:35:09)
kids had very different temperaments
(00:35:11)
likewise you know for the first two days
(00:35:13)
you knew they very different
(00:35:15)
temperaments and we can study that
(00:35:16)
there's some fabulous books there's a
(00:35:18)
beautiful book called parenting with
(00:35:20)
temperament in mind that some colleagues
(00:35:22)
wrote that's just
(00:35:24)
Exquisite and and the key thing about
(00:35:26)
temperament if you're a parent listen
(00:35:28)
is to know that it isn't that one
(00:35:31)
temperament is better than another as a
(00:35:33)
parent your invitation is to just tune
(00:35:36)
into who your child is in quotes and
(00:35:39)
allow them to thrive given their
(00:35:41)
temperament rather than projecting your
(00:35:44)
expectations onto your kid I want an
(00:35:45)
outgoing energized kid who's able to
(00:35:48)
take on any kind of new thing and if
(00:35:50)
that's not your kid's temperament it's
(00:35:52)
going to be a problem that child is not
(00:35:54)
going to really be seen by you won't be
(00:35:56)
easily soothed by you won't particularly
(00:35:57)
feel emotionally safe with you and so
(00:36:00)
that non Attunement to the who they're
(00:36:03)
who they actually are quote temperament
(00:36:04)
wise will actually intensify their very
(00:36:08)
feelings of nervousness because they
(00:36:10)
won't be seen by you so that's one way
(00:36:12)
of seeing how attachment experiences
(00:36:14)
which are your relationships with
(00:36:15)
important caregivers in your life how it
(00:36:19)
actually shapes the regulatory circuitry
(00:36:21)
of the brain which would include for
(00:36:23)
example you getting the message from
(00:36:25)
your
(00:36:26)
parents that says hey he you got one out
(00:36:30)
of 20 wrong why'd you do that and just
(00:36:33)
their non-verbal communication to you or
(00:36:35)
maybe they're explicit about it why
(00:36:37)
didn't you get 20 out of 20 you know
(00:36:39)
makes you feel like I want the love of
(00:36:41)
my parents and so I'm going to really do
(00:36:44)
well in fact I'll not just do well in
(00:36:45)
academics I'll do well in everything can
(00:36:47)
can I just jump in there just for a
(00:36:48)
second because I think it's a really
(00:36:49)
important point that perhaps I didn't
(00:36:51)
make clear when
(00:36:53)
explaining I dearly love my parents and
(00:36:56)
I think they did a great job in raising
(00:36:57)
me
(00:36:58)
like I really do believe that yeah I
(00:37:00)
hear that and
(00:37:03)
um I believe they were doing that from a
(00:37:05)
place of love I really do I believe that
(00:37:09)
their intention and and this is quite a
(00:37:11)
common immigrant type story you and
(00:37:14)
certainly in Asian immigrants you will
(00:37:16)
hear this ever since I started sharing
(00:37:18)
this story the amount of people from
(00:37:20)
immigrant families who get in touch with
(00:37:21)
me and say oh my God thank you for
(00:37:23)
verbalizing that that was my experience
(00:37:25)
as well and I hope we get to talk about
(00:37:27)
your wheel of awareness at some point um
(00:37:31)
I feel
(00:37:33)
that real evolution of our our personal
(00:37:39)
growth really comes when we actually no
(00:37:41)
longer try and blame so maybe when I
(00:37:44)
initially came across this I might have
(00:37:46)
been frustrated I remember I I actually
(00:37:48)
po around to moms years ago when I was
(00:37:50)
started to come around this I said hey
(00:37:51)
Mom you know why did you say that to me
(00:37:53)
or dad you know why did you say that to
(00:37:55)
me and he they don't even remember
(00:37:58)
right and be it was very clear to me
(00:38:02)
that they just wanted the best for me
(00:38:04)
like my mom once said to me hey look we
(00:38:06)
know how talented you are we just wanted
(00:38:09)
you to be the best that you could be so
(00:38:11)
this I think a lot of the time with our
(00:38:13)
it's not necessarily what happened it's
(00:38:15)
the interpretation we give to what
(00:38:17)
happened so now I look back on on that
(00:38:20)
with love I go hey M dad I get why you
(00:38:22)
did that you wanted me to have the best
(00:38:24)
life I could possibly have right so you
(00:38:26)
were driving me to be the best I could
(00:38:29)
be the problem for me and it's not
(00:38:32)
blaming them the problem for me was that
(00:38:35)
I interpreted that I think as a sign
(00:38:39)
that I'm not loved unless I get top
(00:38:41)
marks and so that has massively
(00:38:43)
influenced my own uh parenting Style
(00:38:46)
with my children because I don't want
(00:38:48)
them to feel that right and I hear you
(00:38:51)
being really wonderfully respectful of
(00:38:54)
your parents and really honoring them
(00:38:56)
which is really beautiful the research
(00:39:00)
you know that Carol D and others have
(00:39:02)
done uh looking at how
(00:39:05)
parents reward in their comments um you
(00:39:09)
know a child's efforts for example
(00:39:12)
rather than the outcome of what they do
(00:39:15)
show that kids actually do better when
(00:39:18)
parents really recognize the efforts
(00:39:21)
yeah you really put a lot of energy into
(00:39:23)
this you really cared I can see how
(00:39:24)
thorough you were wow you did like that
(00:39:27)
right
(00:39:28)
whereas kids who are only rewarded for
(00:39:31)
the outcome yeah a result on a test or
(00:39:33)
whatever you know they develop this
(00:39:36)
fixed mindset where they think okay it's
(00:39:40)
all just about what I what what I result
(00:39:43)
in not what I'm experiencing because
(00:39:46)
with a growth mindset Carol D um has
(00:39:49)
shown you know what you have is you have
(00:39:51)
resilience you know you were really
(00:39:53)
fortunate you have all these gifts and
(00:39:56)
so your parents
(00:39:58)
alignment and you know really pushing
(00:40:00)
for results you know worked out fine but
(00:40:03)
imagine if it didn't yeah and I know
(00:40:06)
people probably many people where
(00:40:09)
parents tried the exact same thing and
(00:40:11)
their kids were not capable great I me
(00:40:13)
say and whoa the outcome for those
(00:40:16)
children is really sad they feel
(00:40:19)
horrible about themselves because they
(00:40:21)
couldn't get the marks their parents
(00:40:22)
said keep on striving striving imagine
(00:40:25)
if that child just had a parent said wow
(00:40:28)
I saw you really put your effort in you
(00:40:30)
got 14 out of 20 um last time you got 10
(00:40:34)
out of 20 remarkable you know keep on
(00:40:37)
keep on with that effort that's
(00:40:38)
beautiful not beating them up for
(00:40:40)
getting 14 out of 20 instead of 20 out
(00:40:42)
of 20 so it it worked out well with you
(00:40:45)
and your parents so I just want to say
(00:40:46)
for anyone listening you know the
(00:40:49)
research is pretty clear you know let's
(00:40:52)
focus on the effort that a child exerts
(00:40:55)
rather than the outcome of what they
(00:40:57)
result in I I I completely agree and
(00:40:59)
also just to add there
(00:41:02)
um I think it's worked out well not
(00:41:06)
because of Any achievement or success as
(00:41:09)
defined by society that I've had in life
(00:41:12)
it's only ended up okay because I've
(00:41:15)
gone in and explored my inner world and
(00:41:19)
processed a lot of this because I think
(00:41:21)
for many years it wasn't okay in the
(00:41:23)
facts I was achieving yeah but I felt
(00:41:26)
incomplete so what is that like to feel
(00:41:29)
incomplete
(00:41:33)
so I think how it
(00:41:37)
felt was
(00:41:40)
Hollow so I I feel that
(00:41:45)
um whenever I achieved and yes I am by
(00:41:49)
society's metric of success sure I've
(00:41:52)
achieved a degree of success
(00:41:54)
definitely but I think in many ways
(00:41:56)
achieving that success
(00:41:58)
taught me that it doesn't make you
(00:42:00)
happy right I got the outcomes that you
(00:42:04)
know my dad would have loved but he
(00:42:06)
never got to see
(00:42:10)
right but getting those
(00:42:13)
outcomes didn't lead to
(00:42:16)
contentment
(00:42:18)
so going back to your original
(00:42:21)
question I feel one of the key things I
(00:42:23)
learned was
(00:42:26)
that you could achieve perfect or what
(00:42:29)
you consider perfect outcomes and it
(00:42:32)
still not fill the hole that you have
(00:42:33)
inside yourself so for some I think for
(00:42:37)
me it was very beneficial to get these
(00:42:39)
high levels of success to teach me that
(00:42:42)
and it's kind of forced me or it's
(00:42:44)
encouraged me to go inwards and go and
(00:42:46)
figure out well what does contentment
(00:42:48)
look like because external validation
(00:42:51)
sure as hell didn't do it for
(00:42:53)
me and so I really was set on this path
(00:42:57)
down when my father died in 2013 because
(00:43:00)
I was uh a huge part of um you know huge
(00:43:04)
part of my adult life was spent caring
(00:43:06)
for Dad along with my mom and my big
(00:43:08)
brother so you know I live very near my
(00:43:11)
family house still now mom's still there
(00:43:13)
you know I live five minutes away and so
(00:43:16)
Dad dying was the
(00:43:21)
um it was the first time where I started
(00:43:24)
to go inward until dad died everything
(00:43:27)
was outward for for me I think when dad
(00:43:28)
died it was the first time I went inward
(00:43:30)
to examine my life where did my beliefs
(00:43:32)
come from where did my desire to become
(00:43:35)
adult to come from what am I doing so
(00:43:39)
that's me trying to summarize a very
(00:43:41)
very long journey did that make sense it
(00:43:43)
makes total sense and you use two words
(00:43:47)
um the idea that there was a hollow
(00:43:50)
inside and something felt very
(00:43:52)
incomplete C can you just try to
(00:43:55)
illuminate for us what
(00:43:58)
what did that feel like
(00:44:06)
holess it's so hard to put words to this
(00:44:09)
because I feel that I've it's been years
(00:44:12)
now since I moved Beyond thish so in
(00:44:15)
some ways that's a really nice thing to
(00:44:16)
go oh I can barely remember what that
(00:44:18)
used to feel like right so I I think
(00:44:20)
that's a good thing
(00:44:23)
um nothing ever felt
(00:44:26)
enough okay
(00:44:29)
um I think going back to how we started
(00:44:32)
this
(00:44:33)
conversation
(00:44:35)
um I think I felt
(00:44:38)
reactive
(00:44:40)
um I think part of it was also this I've
(00:44:43)
got everything you could possibly have
(00:44:45)
wanted as a
(00:44:47)
child
(00:44:49)
yet I still want more MH mhm you know
(00:44:53)
I'm trying to put words to something
(00:44:54)
that I used to
(00:44:56)
feel I guess the contrast would
(00:44:59)
be you know last year I was in in Sweden
(00:45:03)
my my book and happiness came out there
(00:45:05)
a year after it came out in the UK and
(00:45:07)
the US and I was I was there doing some
(00:45:09)
promo for it and I remember Swedish
(00:45:11)
journalist Ask Me In Stocking well how
(00:45:13)
do you know if you're
(00:45:14)
happy it was a great question and I was
(00:45:17)
thinking about it and then I think what
(00:45:19)
came to mind in that moment
(00:45:22)
was I think you know when you're happy
(00:45:24)
when you have this kind of sense of
(00:45:27)
inner
(00:45:28)
peace and you don't really want for
(00:45:30)
anything like I feel I have enough and I
(00:45:33)
am enough mhm it's this making sense
(00:45:36)
total makes sense yeah I mean it's it's
(00:45:38)
really powerful to hear this and you
(00:45:41)
know I really so deeply appreciate us
(00:45:44)
being able to talk at this level of
(00:45:46)
vulnerability and openness and and
(00:45:48)
rawness you know
(00:45:51)
um
(00:45:53)
there's I think a way that we can put a
(00:45:57)
frame around this that might be a good
(00:46:00)
way to connect with you and then I want
(00:46:02)
to know what
(00:46:04)
happened after your dad died we we have
(00:46:06)
a very similar history in certain way my
(00:46:08)
dad died 12 years ago and I live 7
(00:46:10)
minutes from my mom who's 95 now you
(00:46:13)
know and uh our adult daughter lives you
(00:46:16)
know 4 minutes away and our son lives 12
(00:46:19)
minutes away you know so we have a
(00:46:20)
pretty tight family and I love hearing
(00:46:23)
that cuz that's quite rare these days
(00:46:25)
yeah it is so it's really nice to hear
(00:46:27)
that for me that other people do that as
(00:46:28)
well yeah yeah it's important thing to
(00:46:30)
have that feeling the opposite of you
(00:46:33)
know holess is I think wholeness to feel
(00:46:37)
whole and have this feeling of coherence
(00:46:40)
rather than fragmentation or
(00:46:41)
incompleteness so can I give you a
(00:46:43)
little just a download of this 20-year
(00:46:45)
project so picture the
(00:46:51)
experience that we
(00:46:53)
have
(00:46:55)
when there is no separ
(00:46:58)
ation when there's nothing you have to
(00:47:01)
do when you know there are no
(00:47:04)
emergencies like a siren we hear in the
(00:47:06)
distance tells us there some emergency
(00:47:09)
someone has to go from being receptive
(00:47:11)
to reactive fighting fleeing freezing or
(00:47:14)
collapsing in a faint you know you're
(00:47:17)
just receptive effortless
(00:47:20)
being and imagine though there are
(00:47:23)
variations of this but imagine that we
(00:47:25)
have a nervous system when we're in the
(00:47:28)
womb that can remember in what's called
(00:47:31)
implicit memory a feeling of just
(00:47:34)
effortless being of being not separated
(00:47:37)
of being whole when in the womb
(00:47:39)
especially the last trimester the last
(00:47:42)
three months you know you don't have to
(00:47:44)
eat you don't have to breathe you don't
(00:47:48)
have to make sure they're caregivers
(00:47:49)
aware where you
(00:47:51)
are all those things are taken care of
(00:47:53)
in the womb and sure there are
(00:47:56)
variations if your mother's stressed or
(00:47:57)
you're hearing you know painful things
(00:48:00)
outside the womb but in general there's
(00:48:02)
an effortless state of being that let's
(00:48:05)
just call that the experience of
(00:48:08)
wholeness you could go even further back
(00:48:11)
if you want to go in terms of cosmically
(00:48:13)
to the big bang and when all we were
(00:48:15)
were potential in the universe and then
(00:48:17)
potential spread out into all this mass
(00:48:19)
and stars and planets and moons and our
(00:48:22)
bodies but the point is that in the womb
(00:48:26)
and just like before the Big Bang all
(00:48:29)
there was was just
(00:48:31)
being then what's the difference between
(00:48:35)
this sense of wholeness that we all
(00:48:37)
experienced at some level in the womb
(00:48:39)
and now you're out you've been born
(00:48:42)
however you got out here what's the
(00:48:44)
difference in your state of
(00:48:51)
existence well when you're born and
(00:48:53)
you're outside the
(00:48:55)
womb you are reli
(00:48:59)
on certain
(00:49:01)
things you
(00:49:04)
need people caregivers parents siblings
(00:49:10)
whatever it is you need people to look
(00:49:12)
after you to bring you food um maybe
(00:49:15)
your mother to breastfeed you if she's
(00:49:17)
able to uh warmth uh
(00:49:21)
shelter and if those things are not
(00:49:24)
there you're going to feel isolated
(00:49:27)
you're going to feel that the world is
(00:49:28)
not safe and that there's something
(00:49:31)
wrong wrong and what if those things
(00:49:33)
never show up what's going to happen
(00:49:36)
well at one extreme if those things
(00:49:37)
never show up you're probably going to
(00:49:39)
end up dying right so you are now in a
(00:49:42)
Do or Die
(00:49:44)
situation okay we call it working for a
(00:49:47)
living right you got to make sure all
(00:49:49)
those things you powerfully just
(00:49:52)
said are there and you achieve them by
(00:49:55)
doing in various ways right you're just
(00:49:58)
a baby but there's a complete contrast
(00:50:02)
of the effortless being which we're
(00:50:04)
going to name as wholeness in the womb
(00:50:07)
that because you have a nervous system
(00:50:10)
that's remembering stuff in something
(00:50:11)
called implicit memory which means the
(00:50:14)
bodily
(00:50:15)
Sensations the perceptions the emotions
(00:50:19)
and even the behaviors in this case no
(00:50:21)
Behavior you don't have to do
(00:50:23)
anything those are remembered in an
(00:50:25)
implicit memory and here's the amazing
(00:50:27)
about pure implicit memory research
(00:50:29)
shows that when you take an implicit
(00:50:32)
memory that's in
(00:50:33)
storage and now retrieve it it's
(00:50:38)
activated and you don't know it's coming
(00:50:40)
from the
(00:50:42)
past so what our hypothesis is is that
(00:50:46)
there's a feeling of restlessness when
(00:50:48)
you're born because you
(00:50:50)
know something that you implicitly are
(00:50:52)
familiar with that you implicitly can
(00:50:55)
sense once was there is not there even
(00:50:58)
though you don't feel it's coming from
(00:51:00)
the past you just feel the contrast of
(00:51:02)
this mph this sense of wholeness that's
(00:51:05)
missing now as you powerfully point out
(00:51:08)
right we've never talked about this
(00:51:09)
before have we no but you
(00:51:11)
articulated you know exactly the the
(00:51:14)
setup right so now depending on your
(00:51:17)
temperament whether it's about agency in
(00:51:20)
one sensitive grouping bonding in
(00:51:23)
another sensitive grouping certainty in
(00:51:25)
another we think that your experience is
(00:51:29)
going to be I'm going to be really
(00:51:31)
frustrated or angry with this new non
(00:51:33)
wholeness setup I have separation
(00:51:36)
distress and sadness with this new non
(00:51:38)
wholeness setup or I'm going to be
(00:51:41)
anxious and fearful in this new non
(00:51:44)
wholeness setup is this for everyone for
(00:51:46)
everyone yeah okay no matter their
(00:51:48)
attachment yeah so what what you're
(00:51:49)
saying is if we really think about it is
(00:51:53)
deeply deeply
(00:51:55)
profound because the way I'm hearing the
(00:51:59)
information and the way it's sort of
(00:52:01)
filtering through my brain and my
(00:52:03)
existing beliefs and
(00:52:05)
perceptions I'm thinking well are you
(00:52:08)
saying
(00:52:11)
that a default state of being
(00:52:16)
human is that you experience a
(00:52:19)
separation from wholeness and therefore
(00:52:22)
is the
(00:52:23)
journey the real journey of being a
(00:52:26)
human to get back to the wholeness that
(00:52:29)
we previously experienced you've just
(00:52:31)
given the best summary of that book I've
(00:52:33)
ever
(00:52:35)
heard that was a 20-year project that
(00:52:37)
you just summarized beautifully that
(00:52:39)
personalities the different ways we're
(00:52:41)
trying to get back to
(00:52:44)
wholeness I I I literally can feel
(00:52:46)
tingles all over my body at the moment
(00:52:50)
um what
(00:52:52)
about the journey through the birth
(00:52:55)
canal well that we need to do research
(00:52:57)
on that but of course that can shape
(00:52:59)
things too what we feel is your
(00:53:01)
temperament is set up in the subcortical
(00:53:04)
that is in the brain you have a cortex
(00:53:05)
and areas below the cortex we call sub
(00:53:08)
for below cortex the subcortical areas
(00:53:10)
of the brain are what grows and mature
(00:53:13)
to a very full extent in utero in in the
(00:53:16)
womb so that now you're going to have
(00:53:19)
experiences that shape you that are
(00:53:21)
going to be cortically responded to so
(00:53:23)
that's an experience that certainly can
(00:53:25)
shape you and we should study that how
(00:53:27)
you get up by cesarian section of
(00:53:29)
vaginal delivery yes we should study
(00:53:32)
that that brief period will certainly
(00:53:34)
impact memory in a certain way but the
(00:53:36)
larger pictures you have a temperament a
(00:53:39)
little sensitivity in one of these
(00:53:41)
motivational networks for agency versus
(00:53:43)
bonding versus certainty is going to set
(00:53:47)
up more activation in that particular
(00:53:49)
Network for the first day 2 3 4 5 and
(00:53:53)
then the way neuroplasticity how the
(00:53:55)
brain changes in response to experience
(00:53:58)
is that your own initial sensitivity or
(00:54:01)
intensity or response to novelty the
(00:54:04)
classic ways we Define temperament if
(00:54:06)
it's distributed across these three
(00:54:08)
motivational networks in a slightly
(00:54:10)
different way by a week of age a month
(00:54:14)
of age five months of age your own
(00:54:17)
initial small sensitivity is going to
(00:54:19)
become a larger set of neural
(00:54:21)
connections because it was just firing
(00:54:23)
off more neurons would fire together
(00:54:25)
wire together so now you're 6 months of
(00:54:27)
age and you've got a temperament going
(00:54:29)
and not not that you have a you're
(00:54:31)
temperamental that classic way we use it
(00:54:33)
but more you have a feature to your
(00:54:34)
nervous system so we think my colleagues
(00:54:38)
and I
(00:54:40)
that this contrast of being whole in the
(00:54:43)
womb effortless
(00:54:45)
being is embedded in your implicit
(00:54:48)
memory and that
(00:54:50)
embedding in the womb is so different
(00:54:53)
from your actual ongoing online real
(00:54:56)
time experiences of being out here in
(00:54:58)
the world for the rest of our
(00:55:01)
lives that this temperament is then
(00:55:04)
activated especially when we're
(00:55:06)
challenged in certain ways but in
(00:55:08)
general in life and then you have the
(00:55:11)
attachment experiences you get things
(00:55:13)
your parents say or do for being seen
(00:55:17)
soothed and safe are going to then shape
(00:55:21)
whether these temperament features
(00:55:23)
become intensely molding your personal
(00:55:27)
it in a certain
(00:55:28)
direction or kind of more mildly molding
(00:55:31)
it so we don't think it determines
(00:55:33)
whether you're ABC agency bonding or or
(00:55:37)
certainty but that it
(00:55:39)
intensifies the rigidity of your
(00:55:41)
personality if your attachments been not
(00:55:44)
secure okay
(00:55:46)
so temperament and personality yeah
(00:55:51)
these are separate things well they're
(00:55:54)
let's not call them separate let's call
(00:55:55)
them distinct things they are distinct
(00:55:58)
they're not separate in that personality
(00:56:00)
emerges from temperament that's our
(00:56:03)
Theory um so they're distinct
(00:56:05)
temperament would be the
(00:56:07)
subcortical um proclivities that you're
(00:56:11)
born with they're not learned for for
(00:56:13)
someone who who doesn't understand the
(00:56:14)
term subcortical can you just break it
(00:56:17)
down for them sure so the brain if you
(00:56:20)
take your hand and put your thumb in the
(00:56:23)
middle if you're not driving you know
(00:56:24)
take a hand put your thumb in the middle
(00:56:26)
put your fingers over the top where your
(00:56:28)
fingers are folded over your thumb
(00:56:29)
that's the cortex the higher part of the
(00:56:31)
brain that's the part of the brain that
(00:56:32)
will develop in a huge way after you're
(00:56:36)
born and it responds to
(00:56:38)
learning from experiential immersion
(00:56:42)
including what happens with your parents
(00:56:43)
or what happens in school if you lift up
(00:56:46)
your fingers and see the thumb and
(00:56:49)
palm let's call these the subcortical
(00:56:51)
areas this includes regions that used to
(00:56:54)
be commonly called the lyic area people
(00:56:56)
don't like to use that term anymore for
(00:56:59)
complex reasons but amydala hippocampus
(00:57:02)
hypothalamus are the formal names the
(00:57:04)
more primitive parts of our brain more
(00:57:06)
primitive parts of the brain we don't
(00:57:07)
need to call them old Mamon because some
(00:57:09)
people don't want us to use that name
(00:57:10)
anymore but that's fine but they're more
(00:57:13)
primitive and they develop earlier in
(00:57:15)
development so in the womb if you lift
(00:57:17)
up your thumb you're now down to the
(00:57:19)
brain stem and in this lyic but used to
(00:57:23)
be called lyic and brain stem area there
(00:57:25)
are other areas too just call the whole
(00:57:27)
region there beneath your fingers sub
(00:57:30)
meaning beneath cortical and the
(00:57:32)
importance here is that research has
(00:57:34)
shown that you have many distinct
(00:57:37)
motivational networks that are basically
(00:57:40)
taking basic needs like a need for
(00:57:43)
agency that is embodied empowerment you
(00:57:46)
know have a sense of competence autonomy
(00:57:48)
that's one network it's very different
(00:57:50)
in the subcortical regions to a distinct
(00:57:54)
motivational Network anatomically and
(00:57:55)
functionally very distinct for bonding
(00:57:58)
this is for relational connections for
(00:58:01)
me being accepted by you when I arrived
(00:58:03)
here that deep Network in me is
(00:58:06)
activated but then you know when I'm
(00:58:08)
walking to see you I have a third
(00:58:11)
motivational Network we think is really
(00:58:12)
important for personality and its
(00:58:15)
Origins are in temperament so we'll get
(00:58:16)
to that in a moment and that's for
(00:58:18)
certainty that is for predictability why
(00:58:21)
is predictability important in life
(00:58:23)
because if there's prediction there's
(00:58:25)
protection so if I I can know where I'm
(00:58:27)
walking to get there in a certain time I
(00:58:29)
feel a certain kind of ease and I get
(00:58:31)
here that's fine then when I meet you
(00:58:33)
you know my bonding network is activated
(00:58:36)
is is wrong gun going to really accept
(00:58:38)
me am I going to be okay am I wearing
(00:58:39)
the right things am I saying the right
(00:58:41)
things you know for agency is you know
(00:58:44)
when I come do I I need to go to the
(00:58:46)
restroom I'm too hot let me take my
(00:58:48)
jacket off you know I take care of my
(00:58:49)
bodily needs so all these things what's
(00:58:52)
fascinating about is these are three
(00:58:54)
very distinct Networks in the
(00:58:57)
subcortical regions and we have
(00:59:00)
thousands of narratives from people in a
(00:59:02)
system called the anagram that my
(00:59:04)
colleagues are immersed in it's not
(00:59:06)
really my area but we've been working
(00:59:08)
together for 20 years to take those
(00:59:10)
thousands of narratives and basically
(00:59:12)
say why do people speak in such
(00:59:14)
different ways about their inner life
(00:59:16)
and then we went to my field
(00:59:18)
interpersonal neurobiology where we put
(00:59:20)
all these different fields together
(00:59:22)
especially neuroscience and
(00:59:23)
developmental science and what we think
(00:59:26)
happens is that temperament is what
(00:59:29)
you're born with not learned and that
(00:59:33)
the reason people have all these very
(00:59:34)
distinct narratives that fall into nine
(00:59:37)
different patterns is because you have
(00:59:40)
what we call adaptive strategies to your
(00:59:43)
own temperament that that's personality
(00:59:46)
and that's how you get personality it's
(00:59:47)
your adaptive strategy and that you
(00:59:49)
experience outwardly in well you
(00:59:51)
experience it in your
(00:59:53)
emotions thought and behavior so the
(00:59:55)
simplest way of Define finding
(00:59:56)
personality just to give a definition of
(00:59:58)
it is
(01:00:00)
persistent patterns of
(01:00:03)
emotion thought and
(01:00:06)
behavior that exist across conditions
(01:00:10)
that is situations and time so it's not
(01:00:13)
just a state of mind I'm in this
(01:00:15)
particular moment and it'll never come
(01:00:16)
back it's persistent it's recurrent it
(01:00:19)
comes back okay yeah that's the simplest
(01:00:22)
way of defining personality so we think
(01:00:25)
personality can be more like a prison
(01:00:29)
especially when your attachment is not
(01:00:30)
secure or can be more like a playground
(01:00:33)
but it may be we always have personality
(01:00:35)
that's a big question we can get to and
(01:00:37)
maybe you can go beneath personality to
(01:00:39)
just open receptive awareness we'll get
(01:00:41)
into that but temperament may always
(01:00:44)
persist so they're distinct but they but
(01:00:47)
temperament we think gives rise to
(01:00:48)
personality it's an it's a helpful
(01:00:52)
analogy
(01:00:53)
um a lot of the time on this podcast we
(01:00:56)
we talk about how much genetics play a
(01:00:59)
role and how much our lifestyle and
(01:01:03)
environment plays a role okay in terms
(01:01:05)
of our risk of getting sick or
(01:01:07)
Alzheimer's or something like that okay
(01:01:10)
and so in the world I operate in um we
(01:01:14)
we commonly talk about well you know you
(01:01:17)
you have a genetic
(01:01:19)
predisposition or you may have a genetic
(01:01:22)
predisposition to something let's say
(01:01:24)
type two diabetes
(01:01:27)
but that's probably 5 or 10% off it
(01:01:29)
because 90% or so of of your risk is
(01:01:32)
going to come
(01:01:34)
from how you live your life what you're
(01:01:36)
exposed to what's the environment okay
(01:01:39)
so which is I think hugely empowering
(01:01:43)
for people who are able to make
(01:01:45)
different choices of course not everyone
(01:01:47)
is able
(01:01:49)
to can I look at what you've just said
(01:01:51)
through a similar lens not quite the
(01:01:54)
same thing but
(01:01:57)
you're
(01:01:58)
born and once you're born that process
(01:02:01)
or some process I don't know where
(01:02:04)
genetic sort of um feature here
(01:02:08)
but you have a temperament like your you
(01:02:11)
know your genetic predisposition for typ
(01:02:14)
to diabetes right and then it's your
(01:02:16)
lifestyle that determines what actually
(01:02:19)
happens is it similar in the sense that
(01:02:22)
we're born with a temperament with a
(01:02:25)
tendency but then our personality
(01:02:28)
develops on top of the
(01:02:30)
temperament in response to various
(01:02:33)
environmental inputs including the way
(01:02:35)
we were brought up exactly okay yeah so
(01:02:38)
that works that works totally and and
(01:02:41)
and to build on that um number one it's
(01:02:45)
not just genetics it can be just let's
(01:02:47)
use the word innate that is you can have
(01:02:50)
just the way you were leaning in the
(01:02:51)
womb for example I just did a workshop
(01:02:53)
where they were identical twins and they
(01:02:55)
had different personal ities you know
(01:02:57)
and they have identical genes but one
(01:03:00)
was leaning to the left and one was
(01:03:01)
leaning to the right and the Brain
(01:03:03)
develops so the initial sensitivity that
(01:03:06)
we call temperament may not have that
(01:03:09)
big a genetic component but it's still
(01:03:11)
innate that it it was inherent when you
(01:03:13)
were born you didn't learn it that's the
(01:03:16)
important thing okay so uh just as you
(01:03:18)
can't change your
(01:03:20)
genes although you can change the
(01:03:23)
expression of them and that the sort of
(01:03:25)
phenomena of AP etics in terms of how we
(01:03:28)
live our life what we're exposed
(01:03:30)
to if we look at what you've just said
(01:03:32)
through the lens of the story I relay to
(01:03:35)
you about my competitive personality
(01:03:37)
traits that I no longer have yeah
(01:03:41)
okay are you saying that I was born with
(01:03:44)
an innate
(01:03:45)
tendency and because of certain
(01:03:47)
experiences in my life when I was a
(01:03:50)
young child those experiences shaped me
(01:03:53)
to develop the personality traits of
(01:03:56)
competitiveness mhm and first of all
(01:03:59)
interested whether you think that's uh a
(01:04:02)
reasonable assertion that I'm making
(01:04:04)
based upon all the study and science
(01:04:06)
that you've written about and been going
(01:04:07)
through for many many years but also
(01:04:10)
that definition of
(01:04:12)
personality persistent patterns of
(01:04:16)
emotion thought and
(01:04:19)
behavior I'm just trying to look at that
(01:04:21)
through the lens of competitiveness I
(01:04:23)
think it was a persistant pattern in my
(01:04:25)
life I certainly would say my thoughts I
(01:04:29)
had competitive thoughts I had
(01:04:31)
competitive
(01:04:33)
behaviors you know is what I said to you
(01:04:37)
does it does it feel accurate to you
(01:04:39)
based upon your study yeah well it the
(01:04:42)
the in Academia the main view of um
(01:04:49)
personality is called the big five this
(01:04:51)
is the accepted View and this is what
(01:04:54)
we're going to even get even a little
(01:04:56)
further beyond what we're talking about
(01:04:58)
just to say these are observable traits
(01:05:01)
personality traits and they include
(01:05:05)
things that spell the word ocean so it's
(01:05:06)
openness o versus
(01:05:09)
closedness C is
(01:05:12)
conscientiousness versus carelessness
(01:05:14)
that's OC e is extroversion versus
(01:05:18)
introversion which is really referring
(01:05:20)
to your sociability you know do you like
(01:05:22)
to go out and hang out with people or
(01:05:23)
you rather be by yourself introverted
(01:05:27)
um then o c EA is agreeable or not
(01:05:32)
agreeable and N is neuroticism meaning
(01:05:35)
are you kind of neurotic or are you kind
(01:05:37)
of cool as a cucumber and do you have to
(01:05:40)
pick one one of the five or you have get
(01:05:42)
all five you get various various degrees
(01:05:44)
so this is not we don't we don't think
(01:05:45)
there's something called a personality
(01:05:47)
type so we don't use the word type
(01:05:48)
anymore we talk about patterns meaning
(01:05:51)
you can have all sorts of degrees of
(01:05:53)
each of those five now that's the
(01:05:55)
classic view from like the last 30 years
(01:05:58)
of formal University based academic
(01:06:02)
research on personality so make sure
(01:06:04)
you're taking action after watching this
(01:06:06)
video I've created a free guide to help
(01:06:09)
you build healthy habits we can all make
(01:06:12)
short-term change but can those changes
(01:06:14)
become a fundamental part of our life
(01:06:17)
often they don't and that's why in this
(01:06:19)
free guide I share with you the six
(01:06:22)
crucial steps you need to take that
(01:06:25)
really really eff effective if you want
(01:06:27)
to get hold of that free guide right now
(01:06:30)
all you have to do is click the link in
(01:06:31)
the description box
(01:06:33)
below
(01:06:35)
now when you when you go beneath those
(01:06:38)
five factors and we've been doing that
(01:06:42)
with our approach Carol dck came up
(01:06:46)
years later with a different approach
(01:06:48)
now that um that uses the exact same
(01:06:52)
notion that I'm describing to you here
(01:06:54)
so it's a very exciting moment um I just
(01:06:56)
learned about this a couple days ago oh
(01:06:58)
wow yeah so it's super exciting but
(01:07:00)
consilient that is
(01:07:02)
independently it's this emergence of
(01:07:05)
this notion that you're born with a
(01:07:07)
temperament that she uses this great
(01:07:09)
acronym called beats that there are
(01:07:12)
beliefs emotions and what she calls
(01:07:15)
action
(01:07:16)
tendencies that are equivalent to what
(01:07:18)
we're calling adaptive strategies that
(01:07:20)
are basically how your temperament comes
(01:07:23)
into your personality and she shows the
(01:07:26)
relationship of those things to the
(01:07:28)
ocean F Big Five personality traits so
(01:07:31)
that's a thing you can look up for her
(01:07:33)
for us we're looking at how attachment
(01:07:36)
um Can intensify the nonfunctional ways
(01:07:39)
your particular combination is and I
(01:07:41)
haven't demonstrate why the three get
(01:07:44)
into nine and that's another interesting
(01:07:46)
thing because we think another aspect of
(01:07:48)
temperament and um research colleague of
(01:07:50)
mine actually found this in the brain
(01:07:53)
independently so another form of
(01:07:55)
consilience is something people are very
(01:07:56)
inward different from introversion not
(01:07:59)
about your sociability just they their
(01:08:02)
energy is kind of inward they're
(01:08:03)
focusing inward other people focus
(01:08:05)
outward their energy outward some people
(01:08:08)
are kind of a shimmering between Inward
(01:08:10)
and outward so you're both Inward and
(01:08:12)
outward at the same time we call that
(01:08:14)
dietic meaning it's a diet is a pair so
(01:08:17)
it's pairing Inward and outward when you
(01:08:20)
put those three orientations of
(01:08:23)
attention which I've made up a term ATT
(01:08:25)
tendency the tendency of attention isn't
(01:08:27)
a tendency inward outward or dietic as
(01:08:30)
both when you combine that with the ABC
(01:08:33)
agency bonding and you know certainty
(01:08:37)
you get nine we now have tens of
(01:08:39)
thousands of narratives that beautifully
(01:08:43)
fold into these nine patterns when
(01:08:46)
people tell the story of their life so
(01:08:49)
when Carol D came up with independently
(01:08:52)
just theoretically this model that's
(01:08:55)
virally identical to our model it was so
(01:08:57)
exciting because our model was derived
(01:08:59)
from listening to tens of thousands of
(01:09:02)
people talk about their lives so you
(01:09:05)
know it's an exciting moment and in this
(01:09:07)
view to get to your
(01:09:08)
point competitiveness is not in the big
(01:09:11)
five so if I were a university
(01:09:14)
researcher which I'm not and and was
(01:09:16)
saying trying to put the Big Five on
(01:09:18)
there I would say
(01:09:19)
listen we don't see competitiveness
(01:09:21)
certainly it's a feature of who you are
(01:09:23)
but it's not a formal listing in the
(01:09:26)
academically accepted Big Five it's not
(01:09:29)
about whether you're open conscientious
(01:09:32)
you know extroverted it's not about your
(01:09:34)
agreeableness depending on how you use
(01:09:36)
your competitiv it's not about whether
(01:09:38)
you're neurotic or not you could have
(01:09:39)
any variation of ocean an academic would
(01:09:42)
say and still be competitive or not
(01:09:44)
competitive so we don't look for
(01:09:45)
competitiveness was what they would say
(01:09:47)
I'm sure what would you say so for me I
(01:09:50)
would say
(01:09:52)
that my best friend for example in High
(01:09:56)
School
(01:09:58)
um was incredibly competitive he loved
(01:10:02)
playing tennis I would play with him and
(01:10:05)
I would just laugh when I would miss the
(01:10:06)
ball and he would go come on come on try
(01:10:08)
try let's let's beat each other whatever
(01:10:11)
I just didn't care I never cared about
(01:10:13)
that um for him he's always watching the
(01:10:16)
sports page in the paper I said why do
(01:10:18)
you do that he goes you kidding I want
(01:10:19)
this team to win I really want them to
(01:10:21)
beat the other team I I never had a
(01:10:23)
moment in my body where I cared ever
(01:10:26)
about
(01:10:27)
that it felt like it was a temperament
(01:10:29)
thing you know I know his family I think
(01:10:31)
he had secure attachment I did not have
(01:10:33)
secure attachment to my family you'd
(01:10:35)
think I'd be the competitive one trying
(01:10:37)
to achieve something so it could be that
(01:10:40)
your competitiveness this is a question
(01:10:41)
I'm going to ask you and maybe in
(01:10:43)
general but let's look for you in
(01:10:45)
particular if we take this notion that
(01:10:48)
personality and all its Dimensions is a
(01:10:51)
lifelong journey to
(01:10:54)
wholeness that could it
(01:10:57)
be that for the temperament in you which
(01:11:00)
we haven't figured out yet but could it
(01:11:02)
be that competitiveness was a way of
(01:11:04)
getting some sense of wholeness if you
(01:11:07)
won and that as you said it wasn't that
(01:11:10)
I really wanted to win I just didn't
(01:11:11)
want to lose yeah and that you got a
(01:11:13)
wholeness when you won and that now you
(01:11:16)
found in ways that I'd love to know
(01:11:19)
about what happened 10 years ago after
(01:11:21)
your dad passed something may have
(01:11:23)
happened where you found another route
(01:11:25)
to Ness so it made competitiveness not
(01:11:28)
necessary yeah so that's my question for
(01:11:30)
you it's it's so
(01:11:36)
fascinating I do believe that
(01:11:38)
competitiveness
(01:11:40)
was you know through that lens yeah I
(01:11:44)
can make a case that it
(01:11:46)
was an attempt I would say a misguided
(01:11:50)
attempt to get
(01:11:53)
wholeness so if part of wholeness is
(01:11:58)
love then yeah I think competiveness was
(01:12:01)
a
(01:12:02)
way to receive love
(01:12:06)
mhm competiveness
(01:12:09)
was my way of thinking I was going to
(01:12:14)
get love but I don't think it brought me
(01:12:17)
that yeah so it may have been an attempt
(01:12:19)
but it was a failed attempt and so the
(01:12:21)
competitiveness that led to Straight A's
(01:12:25)
and medical school and excelling at you
(01:12:29)
know all kinds of different things which
(01:12:32)
was how I was brought up that I need to
(01:12:34)
Excel and this is another thing and you
(01:12:37)
may have come across this some of your
(01:12:39)
clients one thing a lot of Asian
(01:12:41)
immigrant kids get told in the UK and
(01:12:44)
I'm pretty sure it's the same in the US
(01:12:46)
and it's it's not with any
(01:12:47)
discrimination or or racism it really
(01:12:50)
isn't it's you've got to be better than
(01:12:52)
your white counterparts MH right so
(01:12:55)
that's drilled into I can't speak for
(01:12:57)
every family that's a culturally learned
(01:12:59)
thing right so we learned that at a
(01:13:01)
young age and I I know about the
(01:13:03)
Discrimination my parents face and my
(01:13:05)
dad face only in the weeks leading up to
(01:13:07)
his death he never ever told me once he
(01:13:10)
never complains he got on with life he
(01:13:14)
he just honestly I only learned about
(01:13:16)
this right towards the end about various
(01:13:17)
things that
(01:13:19)
happened and I have a lot of compassion
(01:13:21)
for Mom and Dad and how they would have
(01:13:23)
tried to bring me up because
(01:13:26)
you know they dearly loved and and love
(01:13:30)
me and my
(01:13:31)
brother and their desire for us to excel
(01:13:36)
as best as we
(01:13:38)
could was a desire for us to be accepted
(01:13:42)
and not face the struggle that they
(01:13:44)
faced right so I get it and also if you
(01:13:47)
really want to look at this in a very um
(01:13:51)
zoomed out big picture way
(01:13:55)
I'm actually glad they
(01:13:57)
did because I don't feel I would have
(01:13:59)
learned the lessons that I've learned in
(01:14:02)
life and had the realizations that I've
(01:14:04)
had without that experience yeah I'm
(01:14:07)
glad I had the competitiveness The
(01:14:09)
Emptiness the holess I'm glad because
(01:14:13)
now I can really
(01:14:14)
appreciate yeah the wholeness the calm
(01:14:17)
and I don't think I would have was
(01:14:20)
competiveness an attempt back to
(01:14:22)
wholeness yes probably although a
(01:14:24)
misguided attempt
(01:14:26)
um I don't know how this seems to you've
(01:14:28)
talk about your friend and how we'd look
(01:14:30)
at the sports Pages well I used to I
(01:14:32)
don't anymore I don't care about sport
(01:14:34)
anymore but for much of my life I was a
(01:14:37)
diard Liverpool Football Club fan right
(01:14:41)
I would go to games I travel around
(01:14:43)
Europe to watch them like I was I was
(01:14:45)
all in and I can remember being at
(01:14:48)
University in Edinburgh it was either 98
(01:14:51)
or 99 Liverpool's Arch Rivals Manchester
(01:14:54)
United
(01:14:56)
ended up winning the champions league
(01:14:59)
and I was out in a bar in Edinburgh with
(01:15:01)
my friends watching it hoping like hell
(01:15:05)
United lost they were one nil down right
(01:15:08)
and in injury time they scored two goals
(01:15:12)
oh my I was
(01:15:16)
devastated I was literally devastated
(01:15:18)
that United had won that's who I was
(01:15:21)
back then right I still think I was a
(01:15:23)
nice guy but I think that shows what how
(01:15:26)
my wiring was at that point
(01:15:29)
where it why should whether man united
(01:15:31)
won or not affect me I was a Liverpool
(01:15:34)
fan right but it did I was really really
(01:15:38)
pissed off I can remember it but what's
(01:15:41)
interesting as I no longer am
(01:15:43)
competitive because I'm not I'm also no
(01:15:46)
longer interested
(01:15:48)
in sport in that way I'm interested in
(01:15:51)
playing sports myself and getting better
(01:15:55)
I care yeah what Liverpool or man united
(01:15:57)
or Man City are doing and those desires
(01:16:00)
I had fit the person who I was back then
(01:16:04)
mhh but I'm not that person anymore so
(01:16:07)
therefore those Hobbies don't fit
(01:16:08)
anymore so what do you notice right now
(01:16:10)
in your body when you are reflecting on
(01:16:13)
this change through the lens of somehow
(01:16:16)
I was trying to get to wholeness by
(01:16:18)
identifying with the Liverpool team and
(01:16:21)
when you United won it just was so
(01:16:24)
meaningful to me and now with whatever
(01:16:27)
has happened in all these years you feel
(01:16:29)
the difference what do you notice in
(01:16:31)
your body well when I was describing
(01:16:33)
that story I felt a
(01:16:36)
tightness and as I think about um my
(01:16:40)
relationship to uh achievement and
(01:16:44)
sports and these things now I
(01:16:46)
feel I kind of feel loose loose MH loose
(01:16:50)
and it feels free it feels free yeah
(01:16:53)
yeah so as you just let that Freedom be
(01:16:56)
there right right now um the energy that
(01:17:00)
was put into two big things belief some
(01:17:04)
belief that you know
(01:17:06)
Liverpool them winning would mean
(01:17:09)
something in my life and
(01:17:12)
identity is who am I well I'm a
(01:17:14)
Liverpool fan that's who I am that's my
(01:17:16)
team that's my ingroup we come back to
(01:17:18)
kind of where we started yeah right so
(01:17:20)
there was something about
(01:17:23)
identity that is not just in our bodies
(01:17:25)
it can be a a sports team as you're
(01:17:27)
seeing and that identity gave us
(01:17:30)
something we haven't mentioned which is
(01:17:33)
belonging you could belong and if your
(01:17:35)
team wins you win yeah right because you
(01:17:39)
belong because that's your identity now
(01:17:42)
this ABC business agency you know
(01:17:45)
bonding certainty they're all about
(01:17:46)
belonging all of them they do it in
(01:17:48)
different
(01:17:49)
ways you know I we can go into the the
(01:17:52)
nine patterns and like we just name them
(01:17:54)
briefly but just to say this that um
(01:17:58)
someone might experience a little bit
(01:18:00)
differently because you were speaking of
(01:18:02)
being loved and having a connection that
(01:18:05)
would happen somehow if things were
(01:18:07)
right you know in in getting things
(01:18:09)
right when you'd be you know achieving
(01:18:11)
these things other people might feel
(01:18:13)
they had uh competence and empowerment
(01:18:16)
not just acceptance right and still
(01:18:18)
others would feel like they were safe if
(01:18:20)
I get 20 out of 20 on a test I'm safe
(01:18:23)
you know I'll go ahead and univers or
(01:18:25)
whatever but what I've heard you say in
(01:18:28)
a beautiful way is that it really comes
(01:18:32)
down to relationships for you so it'd be
(01:18:34)
interesting if we ever take time to
(01:18:36)
actually go through the nine patterns to
(01:18:38)
see where you ultimately find is your
(01:18:40)
kind of Baseline kind of what you lead
(01:18:42)
with in life and these I think are
(01:18:44)
changeable and ultimately here's what I
(01:18:46)
think goes on when people grow like
(01:18:51)
whatever the growth process you did for
(01:18:53)
me it's was the wheel of awareness and
(01:18:54)
all sort things we can talk about about
(01:18:56)
that if you want but this way of
(01:18:59)
entering open awareness where the things
(01:19:02)
you're aware of on the rim of this
(01:19:03)
metaphoric wheel are seen as very
(01:19:05)
distinct from the experience of
(01:19:07)
awareness in the hub we can get into
(01:19:09)
that but just to say that that
(01:19:12)
experience allows a person to realize
(01:19:15)
that there's even something beneath
(01:19:18)
temperament which is underneath
(01:19:20)
personality itself and when you start
(01:19:22)
feeling that it's the wholeness that we
(01:19:24)
seek
(01:19:25)
and that can be experienced in lots of
(01:19:27)
ways so for my particular patterns it
(01:19:30)
may be needing some kind of
(01:19:32)
predictability needing some kind of
(01:19:34)
certainty and so however that might
(01:19:36)
happen a routine doing something with my
(01:19:39)
wife you know being a certain way I'm
(01:19:41)
connecting to my mom there's a certain
(01:19:43)
certainty to that that gives me a sense
(01:19:45)
of wholeness maybe for you it be more
(01:19:47)
relational you know other people might
(01:19:50)
need to just make sure I'm competent at
(01:19:53)
what I do and I have this sense of you
(01:19:55)
know empowerment you know and what's
(01:19:57)
interesting when you do that is that
(01:19:59)
beneath all those three things the ABC
(01:20:01)
you know is this pure sense of wholeness
(01:20:06)
and my experience in working with people
(01:20:08)
over these many years in this model of
(01:20:10)
personality is it's just kind of like
(01:20:12)
what you're suggesting personality
(01:20:14)
traits like let's say competitive as is
(01:20:17)
one or you know meeting to be the best
(01:20:19)
on something or meeting do this or do
(01:20:21)
that when we relax that rigid prison of
(01:20:25)
a personality yeah through developing
(01:20:27)
secure attachment number one but also
(01:20:29)
accessing what I call a plane of
(01:20:31)
possibility this open spacious ease of
(01:20:35)
being and being
(01:20:36)
whole then all those things that come up
(01:20:40)
whether it's this drive for agency or a
(01:20:42)
drive for you know bonding or a drive
(01:20:44)
for
(01:20:45)
certainty ah you breathe beneath them
(01:20:48)
you may see them come up and it's almost
(01:20:51)
like your personality which was built on
(01:20:53)
top of your temperament instead instead
(01:20:55)
of being a really
(01:20:56)
imprisoning set of restricted ways of
(01:20:59)
being becomes more like a playground so
(01:21:02)
for example if I go camping I'm in the
(01:21:04)
certainty Vector is what I call it so
(01:21:07)
you can be sure when I go camping with
(01:21:09)
my family it's a sunny day but you never
(01:21:13)
know it's Autumn I'm going with four
(01:21:16)
family members I bring a jacket for
(01:21:18)
myself I say does anyone want a jacket
(01:21:21)
they go no they don't have jackets on I
(01:21:23)
bring four extra jackets we get in the
(01:21:25)
car we drive to the place a storm comes
(01:21:28)
it's freezing and wet and they go oh my
(01:21:31)
God we don't have the right gear we have
(01:21:32)
to go back Dan and they know that you
(01:21:36)
got it I got it I said here are your
(01:21:38)
jackets even though they told me not to
(01:21:40)
bring them I don't have to make them
(01:21:41)
wear them it's not like I push them on
(01:21:43)
them but you know because I'm in a
(01:21:46)
pattern of Personality that always goes
(01:21:50)
to the worst case scenario and and then
(01:21:52)
I once when that was a prison for me
(01:21:54)
when I was you know doing Physical
(01:21:56)
Medicine did you say prison a prison
(01:21:59)
yeah that that totally Rings true living
(01:22:01)
like that yeah for me was living in a
(01:22:04)
prison yeah say say more mental cage
(01:22:06)
yeah exactly a mental cage that you
(01:22:08)
don't know you're in until you're not in
(01:22:10)
it and then you're like oh wow exactly
(01:22:12)
that's a constricted way to live yeah so
(01:22:15)
this whole you know approach of this PDP
(01:22:18)
business patterns of Developmental
(01:22:20)
Pathways is to allow your personality
(01:22:23)
built from your temperament and
(01:22:25)
intensifi by your attachment insecurity
(01:22:27)
to become from that constraining prison
(01:22:31)
more like to a playground so then you
(01:22:33)
know the worst case caner goes I go oh
(01:22:35)
there might be a storm you guys want
(01:22:38)
jackets no and I go you know I'm going
(01:22:41)
to bring them anyway I throw them in the
(01:22:42)
back of the car then we're going the
(01:22:44)
Storm shows up so I'm happy that I was a
(01:22:48)
kind of questioning pattern that I
(01:22:50)
questioned the weather person and
(01:22:52)
whether they were right or not I
(01:22:54)
questioned even my relativ saying they
(01:22:55)
didn't need it when I was doing Physical
(01:22:57)
Medicine this personality pattern when I
(01:23:00)
was in Pediatrics for example if I got a
(01:23:03)
referral from another pediatrician I
(01:23:06)
never believed that the diagnosis that
(01:23:09)
they had come to was accurate and I
(01:23:11)
would not necessarily test the kid again
(01:23:14)
but I would go over the test findings
(01:23:16)
make sure the exam that was done was
(01:23:18)
accurate make sure it was quality and
(01:23:20)
repeat if I needed to and there were
(01:23:22)
many times when I would find things my
(01:23:25)
colleagues wouldn't because I'm in what
(01:23:27)
I would call the questioning pattern
(01:23:28)
that's my personality another person
(01:23:30)
would say hey that was an esteemed you
(01:23:33)
know expert and XY or Z you know why
(01:23:35)
would you question them well I'm a
(01:23:36)
questioning pattern that's what I do
(01:23:38)
yeah so if you're going on a camping
(01:23:39)
trip each of these nine patterns has a
(01:23:42)
great positive feature I'm going to
(01:23:43)
bring the extra jackets and you're not
(01:23:45)
going to have to go home there are other
(01:23:47)
patterns if we go through all nine you
(01:23:49)
know and we' be fun to see where you
(01:23:51)
might lead from that's what I say and
(01:23:53)
ultimately when you tap into all nine of
(01:23:56)
these patterns you start feeling this
(01:23:58)
freedom of wholeness and it's an ease of
(01:24:01)
being where you know you're not
(01:24:03)
imprisoned by it anymore yeah sorry to
(01:24:05)
interrupt to make sure you are taking
(01:24:07)
action after watching this video I have
(01:24:10)
created a free special guides to help
(01:24:13)
you improve your sleep and reduce
(01:24:15)
fatigue in my clinical experience most
(01:24:19)
people who are struggling to sleep are
(01:24:21)
doing something unconsciously in their
(01:24:24)
day-to-day life that is negatively
(01:24:26)
impacting their ability to sleep at
(01:24:28)
night so in this free guide I share with
(01:24:31)
you five of my very top tips tips that I
(01:24:35)
have seen transform the lives of many of
(01:24:37)
my patients so if you want to get hold
(01:24:39)
of this guide all you have to do is
(01:24:41)
click on the link in the description box
(01:24:44)
below it's fascinating this for me few
(01:24:47)
things just to share with you um through
(01:24:50)
the lens of this
(01:24:52)
competitiveness and I've thought a lot
(01:24:54)
about this cuz it for me it's been
(01:24:56)
really night and day to see I was
(01:24:58)
competitive now I'm not hm this is
(01:25:02)
interesting I thought it was who I was
(01:25:05)
but it isn't because I'm no longer it
(01:25:08)
right it was an Adaptive strategy that
(01:25:10)
you could relax and release I really I
(01:25:13)
really believe that to be the case it
(01:25:14)
was an adaptation
(01:25:16)
so one thing I've I've noticed with my
(01:25:20)
children is and look the most important
(01:25:23)
thing to my wife and I is how we bring
(01:25:25)
up our children there's there's nothing
(01:25:27)
more important and we spend a lot of
(01:25:29)
time and energy and intention thinking
(01:25:31)
about it and trying to be there be
(01:25:33)
present with them do things with them uh
(01:25:36)
praise effort not outcomes all these
(01:25:39)
kind of things right and we must cover
(01:25:41)
your four esses uh before we finish
(01:25:43)
today's conversation at some point for
(01:25:45)
sure but what I've noticed is
(01:25:49)
that they seem to really enjoy doing
(01:25:52)
various things or various Sports
(01:25:56)
and music and other passions in a way
(01:25:59)
that I don't think I did
(01:26:02)
like I had to be really good at them to
(01:26:05)
enjoy them I had to be able to excel at
(01:26:08)
them and I've been really conscious to
(01:26:11)
not put that onto my kids so I see my
(01:26:14)
kids just enjoy them for the sheer
(01:26:16)
pleasure of doing them they don't have
(01:26:19)
to win yeah they don't have to push
(01:26:21)
themselves and it's been it's been
(01:26:23)
really interesting with me to TR process
(01:26:25)
this cuz this is not how I was yeah
(01:26:28)
exactly exactly well rangan you know as
(01:26:31)
you're saying this it's so
(01:26:33)
interesting I think my wife who's also a
(01:26:36)
barrister like your wife uh we have very
(01:26:38)
parallel lives um you know when we were
(01:26:41)
raising our kids we wanted them to
(01:26:43)
experience this kind of enjoyment of
(01:26:45)
stuff and yeah so when our son was young
(01:26:48)
and he took piano he was really enjoying
(01:26:51)
just playing with the keys and playing
(01:26:53)
it and his teacher I I overheard him one
(01:26:55)
of the lessons said when he came in one
(01:26:58)
day after he' been practicing you during
(01:27:00)
the week he did it well he did the Peace
(01:27:03)
well he goes she goes um you did it
(01:27:06)
perfectly oh I knew you were a good
(01:27:10)
boy and he quit yeah he quit and we
(01:27:14)
could not get another piano teacher to
(01:27:17)
just let him have the joy of music so he
(01:27:20)
quit then we told him the story that
(01:27:22)
when he was 12 you know before he
(01:27:24)
teenager you know he had to pick up
(01:27:26)
music again and that's just a family
(01:27:28)
tradition you know which it wasn't but
(01:27:31)
we said it cuz we wanted somehow from
(01:27:33)
five onward and we could see he liked
(01:27:35)
music so he picked up we were doing a
(01:27:38)
lot of skateboarding and we were at the
(01:27:40)
skateboard shop next to a music store he
(01:27:43)
goes I'm almost 13 I said yeah yeah he
(01:27:46)
goes I guess I have to do that
(01:27:47)
instrument thing I said yeah so we go to
(01:27:49)
the music store he picks a guitar it
(01:27:52)
turns out he falls in love with the
(01:27:53)
guitar he has a guitar teacher the head
(01:27:55)
of the school who just lets him love
(01:27:57)
playing no saying you got to do it right
(01:28:00)
or wrong no competitive performances
(01:28:03)
nothing and we couldn't get him to stop
(01:28:05)
playing now he's a professional musician
(01:28:08)
you can listen to his music Alex seagull
(01:28:10)
when he was done with high school he was
(01:28:12)
so amazing people thought he was amazing
(01:28:14)
musician he applied to music school got
(01:28:16)
in with the scholarship to the most
(01:28:17)
competitive music school and he turned
(01:28:20)
it down so I called my best friend's
(01:28:22)
father who was a musician I said I'm so
(01:28:24)
confused used he loves music he got into
(01:28:27)
this incredible program and he's he's
(01:28:30)
turning it down he wants just study
(01:28:33)
regular educational stuff and my
(01:28:35)
friend's father goes that's brilliant
(01:28:37)
and I go what's brilliant about it he
(01:28:39)
goes if you want him to stop loving
(01:28:41)
music have him go to music
(01:28:44)
school I said I am so confused he goes
(01:28:47)
just let him find who he is as a person
(01:28:50)
and let the music be expressed through
(01:28:52)
him not to impressed some music teacher
(01:28:56)
that he's doing it right and all these
(01:28:57)
other competitive let him find his own
(01:28:59)
way which is what he did you can listen
(01:29:01)
to the outcome so for for Alex seagull
(01:29:04)
the musician what Caroline my wife and I
(01:29:07)
were always interested in developing and
(01:29:09)
and Alex and his his sister Maddie was
(01:29:13)
an inner
(01:29:15)
Compass where they could find out what
(01:29:17)
really mattered to them and then let
(01:29:20)
that inner Compass stay with them no
(01:29:22)
matter what was going on so Maddie also
(01:29:24)
had an has an artistic capacity she
(01:29:27)
wanted to be literally a drawing artist
(01:29:29)
she tried that out in high school she
(01:29:31)
said you know I think I love science
(01:29:33)
more and now she's getting her doctor
(01:29:35)
degree in in environmental science and
(01:29:38)
that's her thing but an inner Compass
(01:29:40)
allowed the two of them to find their
(01:29:42)
way in life as adults so I say this
(01:29:45)
because what you're doing with your kids
(01:29:47)
by focusing on their inner experience of
(01:29:49)
effort really lets them build this inner
(01:29:51)
compass and that's what we want to do
(01:29:54)
you know the wheel of awareness practice
(01:29:56)
that you mentioned earlier it's a way of
(01:29:58)
developing an inner compass for us as
(01:30:00)
adults or but even for adolescents you
(01:30:02)
know it's a drawing for younger kids but
(01:30:04)
what it does is it allows you to say
(01:30:06)
look you're a human being in a human
(01:30:10)
body and you have a mind that has this
(01:30:13)
amazing thing called
(01:30:15)
Consciousness Consciousness allows you
(01:30:17)
to have choice and to facilitate
(01:30:20)
intentional change so we're going to
(01:30:23)
integrate ious with this practice called
(01:30:25)
The Wheel of awareness integration means
(01:30:28)
we're going to differentiate the rim of
(01:30:29)
things you can be aware of like what you
(01:30:31)
hear or smell or see from the actual
(01:30:35)
experience of knowing we call awareness
(01:30:38)
in the hub and you'll see madd's
(01:30:41)
drawings actually in this book aware
(01:30:43)
because she's my artist for all my books
(01:30:45)
you know and what we're able to do is
(01:30:47)
then I did this with tens of thousands
(01:30:50)
of people in person before the viral
(01:30:51)
pandemic H collected their experience is
(01:30:54)
in the wheel and to summarize that 100
(01:30:57)
pages that we put in that book aware
(01:31:00)
I'll say this it looks
(01:31:03)
like pure
(01:31:06)
awareness is a state where energy which
(01:31:09)
moves along what's called a probability
(01:31:11)
distribution curve so when I think of
(01:31:13)
thought and I say ocean you know it's
(01:31:16)
way up here as a certainty 100%
(01:31:18)
certainly I said ocean but if I drop
(01:31:20)
down to all the words I could say and
(01:31:22)
you and I share let's say a million
(01:31:24)
words words it's in a pool of a million
(01:31:26)
words sitting there before I say them
(01:31:28)
there in pure awareness is what I'm
(01:31:31)
going to suggest to you is where it
(01:31:32)
comes from in that space of what's
(01:31:34)
called Pure potential is where awareness
(01:31:37)
arises from now you have a one out of a
(01:31:38)
million chance of guessing it so now I
(01:31:40)
say Pacific Ocean or Atlantic Ocean and
(01:31:43)
all these things I might
(01:31:45)
say Here's the the
(01:31:47)
issue with the wheel of wareness
(01:31:50)
practice people drop into this Timeless
(01:31:53)
state where they feel whole
(01:31:55)
they feel love they feel content they
(01:31:58)
feel
(01:31:59)
complete the wheel of awareness is
(01:32:01)
useful
(01:32:02)
for minor to um medium levels of
(01:32:07)
depression anxiety and various forms
(01:32:10)
trauma if it's used carefully even
(01:32:13)
patients I've had who have you know
(01:32:15)
terminal illnesses who have the Panic of
(01:32:17)
dying um they do the wheel when they can
(01:32:20)
access the Hub which is part of the
(01:32:22)
practice where you're moving this
(01:32:23)
singular spoke around the whole Rim part
(01:32:26)
of it is you bend the spoke of attention
(01:32:29)
it's a metaphor but an intentional focus
(01:32:31)
into the Hub itself you experience pure
(01:32:34)
awareness the wholeness people
(01:32:37)
experience there the love they
(01:32:38)
experience there frees them from the
(01:32:44)
previous belief that oh my God all I am
(01:32:46)
is my body and if this body is dying
(01:32:49)
then I in quotes am disappearing when in
(01:32:52)
fact they come to feel I'm part of a
(01:32:54)
much larger wholeness to the universe
(01:32:58)
this body gets a 100 years perhaps to
(01:33:00)
live in in this existence but I'm just
(01:33:04)
much bigger than my brain bigger than my
(01:33:07)
body and that's what happens when you
(01:33:10)
get to this state of massive openness
(01:33:13)
now I'll say when you look at what pure
(01:33:15)
awareness is it's a it's a state of
(01:33:17)
brain firing that's
(01:33:20)
extremely not committed it's uncertain
(01:33:23)
and in that sense the brain becomes more
(01:33:26)
like a hose more like a conduit rather
(01:33:29)
than a Constructor of previously learned
(01:33:32)
configurations so you enter this state
(01:33:35)
of kind of beginner's mind and openness
(01:33:39)
maybe more like the effortless being we
(01:33:41)
had in the
(01:33:42)
womb and so what happens I think is that
(01:33:45)
when you come out of the wheel of
(01:33:46)
awareness practice and your quote
(01:33:48)
personality of you're rangan I'm Dan you
(01:33:51)
you come back you know when you come
(01:33:53)
back to these states of old
(01:33:57)
identity if you're doing an integrated
(01:33:59)
process of therapy reflection after the
(01:34:02)
wheel what happens is you relax those I
(01:34:06)
call them plateaus these plateaus of
(01:34:08)
learned identity and instead of just
(01:34:11)
being a me you become more a living mu
(01:34:14)
mwe and that feeling of contentment that
(01:34:17)
you're talking about I think is where
(01:34:20)
identity as a separate self relaxes yeah
(01:34:23)
this whole Ness starts to suffuse it
(01:34:25)
starts to fill every moment when you're
(01:34:28)
living and sometimes of course you enter
(01:34:30)
back into personality and I can get
(01:34:32)
fearful maybe someone else gets angry
(01:34:34)
someone else gets sad sure we live in a
(01:34:37)
body so temperament continues to
(01:34:38)
activate that but with practice and a a
(01:34:42)
life um you can live with this access I
(01:34:45)
call it the plane of possibility where
(01:34:47)
all those possibilities are so with a
(01:34:49)
colleague Lissa eel and two of my
(01:34:51)
interns we wrote a chapter for a
(01:34:53)
textbook of why does mindfulness why
(01:34:56)
does being present why does this open
(01:34:58)
acceptance why does it lead to a change
(01:35:01)
in taras levels the enzyme that repairs
(01:35:04)
the ends of the chromosomes why does
(01:35:06)
that state of openness and kindness why
(01:35:09)
do those lead to a change in the
(01:35:11)
epigenetic controls that reduce
(01:35:14)
inflammation why does it lead to
(01:35:15)
cardiovascular improvements in health
(01:35:18)
why does it lead to Improvement in
(01:35:19)
immune system functioning why does it
(01:35:20)
lower stress in that chapter you'll see
(01:35:23)
this in the book aware
(01:35:25)
what we write
(01:35:26)
about
(01:35:28)
is that when you can access that open
(01:35:31)
awareness you call it living with
(01:35:34)
intention I would say it's living with
(01:35:36)
intention with receptivity that this
(01:35:38)
receptive state allows this whole field
(01:35:42)
within your body to achieve these five
(01:35:45)
physiological changes and even your
(01:35:47)
brain becomes in ways we can study
(01:35:49)
structure and function more integrated
(01:35:52)
differentiated areas are more linked and
(01:35:54)
that's in some studies been shown to be
(01:35:56)
the best correlate of every measure of
(01:35:58)
well-being we have so the the wheel of
(01:36:01)
awareness just to sum that up includes
(01:36:03)
the three pillars that research shows
(01:36:06)
lead to these five physiological changes
(01:36:09)
and integration in the brain the growth
(01:36:11)
of integration in the brain and those
(01:36:12)
are you
(01:36:14)
strengthen attention to be more focused
(01:36:17)
you have awareness become more open and
(01:36:20)
you make intention Kinder so focused
(01:36:24)
attention open awareness kind intention
(01:36:28)
those three pillars of Mind training
(01:36:30)
allow you to cultivate this deep sense
(01:36:33)
of well-being that I think is if someone
(01:36:36)
says oh I've listened to rangan and Dan
(01:36:38)
what what do I do if you do the wheel of
(01:36:40)
awareness practice what my colleagues my
(01:36:44)
students my patients what people in
(01:36:47)
workshops have experience when they do
(01:36:48)
this on a regular basis they start
(01:36:51)
feeling a shift in their personality so
(01:36:54)
instead of being a prison it moves
(01:36:55)
towards a playground so instead of all
(01:36:57)
the insecurities we have they start
(01:36:59)
feeling this wholeness which I think is
(01:37:01)
what the whole journey of personality is
(01:37:03)
all about yeah I mean I I love it so
(01:37:06)
much
(01:37:07)
to reflect on
(01:37:12)
um the way I think about things Dan I'm
(01:37:16)
I'm always trying to think of root
(01:37:19)
causes and I'm always trying to simplify
(01:37:21)
Concepts
(01:37:24)
and so for a little while
(01:37:28)
now I've come to the conclusion the
(01:37:31)
belief that if you're coming from this
(01:37:34)
place of open
(01:37:36)
awareness and
(01:37:39)
intention and
(01:37:41)
compassion it feels to me that in
(01:37:44)
essence you're operating from a place of
(01:37:47)
Love mhm instead of operating from a
(01:37:51)
place of fear which goes back to how we
(01:37:53)
start this conversation you're operating
(01:37:55)
from a place of
(01:37:56)
intention or you're operating from a
(01:37:58)
place of
(01:38:00)
reactivity I don't mean to oversimplify
(01:38:03)
the complexity of your work um because I
(01:38:05)
I know it's much more than that but does
(01:38:08)
any part of that ring true yeah well
(01:38:10)
here's what I would like to ask you
(01:38:12)
about um a lot of it rings true and one
(01:38:16)
part of it I want to really do a little
(01:38:18)
inquiry with you about okay when you use
(01:38:22)
the word intention
(01:38:24)
what do you
(01:38:26)
mean I guess uh I
(01:38:29)
mean the opposite of being reactive okay
(01:38:33)
so other people are doing certain things
(01:38:35)
I work up feeling a certain way
(01:38:37)
therefore I'm going to act in a certain
(01:38:39)
way when I say intention I for example
(01:38:43)
one one sort of practical thing might be
(01:38:47)
um like I always have a a bit of routine
(01:38:50)
in the morning about uh I do various
(01:38:53)
things
(01:38:54)
meditation breath work some movement
(01:38:57)
some journaling you know I I I have a
(01:38:59)
series of practices that I try and do
(01:39:01)
each
(01:39:01)
morning and one of the things I try and
(01:39:04)
end with is thinking about how I want to
(01:39:08)
show up in the world that day you know
(01:39:11)
and I find that when I'm intentional
(01:39:12)
about my
(01:39:13)
[Music]
(01:39:15)
mours and if I say to myself that I want
(01:39:17)
to be a loving kind and compassionate
(01:39:20)
person today I'm much more likely to be
(01:39:23)
that person does that answer your
(01:39:24)
question it does and so I'm going to
(01:39:27)
push back a little bit if I could on
(01:39:29)
your use of the word intention uh I
(01:39:32)
totally hear you and I resonate with it
(01:39:35)
completely you know the brain does have
(01:39:38)
these two states a reactive State and
(01:39:40)
what's usually called a receptive State
(01:39:43)
um uh in the reactive State you go to
(01:39:46)
the five FS fighting back
(01:39:49)
fleeing freezing meaning you temporarily
(01:39:52)
paralyze yourself fainting or flopping
(01:39:55)
meaning you feel helpless there nothing
(01:39:56)
to do you collapse and then higher up in
(01:39:59)
the brain those are all subcortical in
(01:40:01)
the cortex you have fawning where you
(01:40:03)
try to take care of your aggressor right
(01:40:06)
so those are the 5S fighting fleeing
(01:40:09)
freezing flopping or fainting and then
(01:40:13)
faing so those are reactive that's where
(01:40:16)
you feel threatened you can't think
(01:40:18)
clearly and here's my push back on
(01:40:22)
you the the flopping no it's not
(01:40:26)
intentional the other three first ones
(01:40:29)
are intentional meaning the brain is
(01:40:33)
activating a set of firing patterns that
(01:40:36)
have a goal directed Behavior to them
(01:40:38)
that's a way of defining intention okay
(01:40:40)
interesting a goal directed Behavior so
(01:40:44)
uh I have sadistic relative in our
(01:40:48)
family and he intentionally hurts people
(01:40:52)
okay this person has has stated I'm
(01:40:55)
intentionally trying to hurt you yeah so
(01:40:58)
it was a goal directed Behavior to cause
(01:41:00)
pain that's called a saus well I yeah
(01:41:02)
first of all I love that and I welcome
(01:41:04)
that I genuinely do and so I think
(01:41:09)
perhaps it it's more accurate to
(01:41:12)
go as you use reactive versus receptive
(01:41:16)
receptive and within receptivity and
(01:41:18)
this is this is maybe my own bias and
(01:41:21)
you've said it beautifully in so many
(01:41:22)
ways today
(01:41:24)
receptivity I think accesses his plain
(01:41:27)
of possibility yeah and I've done this
(01:41:29)
now literally with over 50,000 people
(01:41:31)
wow and when people get in that Hub of
(01:41:34)
that wheel one of the most common terms
(01:41:36)
they say is love yeah so I think when
(01:41:40)
people get receptive they're dropping
(01:41:42)
into that plane of possibility The Hub
(01:41:44)
of the wheel they're accessing the love
(01:41:46)
which as a scientist as a physician a
(01:41:49)
fellow physician what I'll say is this I
(01:41:52)
think the reason people use the
(01:41:53)
linguistic term love when they get into
(01:41:55)
the plain of possibility is all
(01:41:58)
potentiality is linked there and like
(01:42:01)
when you love your wife you're linked to
(01:42:03)
your wife when you love your kids you're
(01:42:04)
linked to your kids when you love a
(01:42:06)
sport or you love a book or you love
(01:42:08)
music you're linked to the music the
(01:42:09)
sport the book linkage maybe it sounds
(01:42:12)
reductionistic but I think we use the
(01:42:14)
linguistic term love for that so there's
(01:42:16)
massive linkage in that plane of
(01:42:18)
possibility The Hub of the wheel
(01:42:20)
now if we can assume that when you
(01:42:25)
become receptive you open up to the love
(01:42:28)
that is like the fabric of the universe
(01:42:30)
yeah and you let that kind
(01:42:33)
intention become the form of intention
(01:42:36)
that arises not the S sadist knowing I'm
(01:42:40)
I'm G to I don't care I'm not kind I'm
(01:42:42)
going to hurt you that's my intention
(01:42:44)
how does that feel for you well it it
(01:42:46)
feels great and and it totally resonates
(01:42:50)
and I can see what you mean about a kind
(01:42:52)
intention versus a
(01:42:54)
a toxic intention yeah right so you can
(01:42:57)
be intentional in many different ways so
(01:42:59)
I thought that was a beautiful
(01:43:00)
explanation we've gone into so many
(01:43:03)
different areas I wasn't anticipating us
(01:43:05)
going
(01:43:06)
into just to make sure that this is um
(01:43:11)
really practical for people who who've
(01:43:13)
sort of hopefully been inspired and
(01:43:15)
they've found something that's connected
(01:43:17)
with them and thought wow I I want to
(01:43:19)
learn more I have a few questions for
(01:43:20)
you yes you mentioned the wheel of
(01:43:22)
awareness a few times and you've touched
(01:43:24)
on some of the concepts within it if
(01:43:27)
people want to learn more about the
(01:43:29)
wheel of awareness where would you
(01:43:31)
direct them yeah so you can go to my
(01:43:34)
website and do it for free Dr Dan
(01:43:36)
seagull d r d n SI i e gel.com and just
(01:43:41)
go to resources and you'll find the
(01:43:43)
wheel great and then there's a little
(01:43:45)
companion book called becoming aware
(01:43:48)
that's an extract of the bigger book
(01:43:49)
aware those would be the two books to
(01:43:51)
get so for people who want to learn
(01:43:53)
learn it's like a 21-day challenge like
(01:43:55)
here's learning the wheel of awareness
(01:43:57)
in 21 days yeah okay so I can go there
(01:43:59)
yeah um before we get to the three or
(01:44:02)
the four s's of
(01:44:04)
parenting with the understanding that
(01:44:06)
everyone's different and we all respond
(01:44:08)
to different things are there
(01:44:12)
some practices daily practices routines
(01:44:16)
that um you have seen time and time
(01:44:20)
again help people tap in to that more
(01:44:24)
open and aware State yes yes absolutely
(01:44:28)
and and can you sort of briefly share
(01:44:30)
some of them so can really understand
(01:44:33)
what we're talking about here well the
(01:44:34)
wheel of awareness is something I
(01:44:36)
encourage all my patients to do I do it
(01:44:38)
every day um you get this incredible
(01:44:42)
integrative process and accessing the
(01:44:44)
spacious receptive State it's like a 20
(01:44:47)
minute meditation basically and then
(01:44:49)
there's a beginning one and then an
(01:44:50)
intermediate one then an advanced one
(01:44:52)
and if you want to do it like slow
(01:44:53)
slowly over 21 days if you're new to it
(01:44:56)
that becoming aware book would be a good
(01:44:57)
one to do and although I keep trying to
(01:44:59)
get to the four piece there's just too
(01:45:01)
much gold everywhere else yeah
(01:45:04)
um did you not at one point share an
(01:45:08)
experience that was it in Baltimore when
(01:45:12)
you took uh some black skinned folk and
(01:45:14)
some white- skinned folk and put them to
(01:45:16)
you know together yeah can you just
(01:45:18)
share that and how powerful the wheel of
(01:45:20)
awareness was there because that that
(01:45:21)
was when I heard that it was profound
(01:45:22)
for me
(01:45:24)
yeah and that I think I talk about that
(01:45:26)
in the book intraconnected I think
(01:45:28)
that's where it is um yeah there was a a
(01:45:32)
beautiful beautiful senior congressman
(01:45:35)
from Baltimore worked in Washington DC
(01:45:38)
named Elijah Cummings and I had the deep
(01:45:41)
deep privilege of Elijah asking me to
(01:45:43)
come to Baltimore where there was a lot
(01:45:45)
of murder going on and asked me to meet
(01:45:49)
with group of people who are
(01:45:51)
African-American black skinned European
(01:45:54)
descent wh- skinned who had never met
(01:45:56)
with each other before to see if we
(01:45:58)
could allow these leaders in their
(01:45:59)
communities to have some kind of
(01:46:02)
collaboration so we brought them into a
(01:46:05)
space and you could feel the tension
(01:46:08)
people didn't trust each other they were
(01:46:09)
looking you know with very susp
(01:46:11)
suspecting eyes and they didn't feel
(01:46:14)
very comfortable so I guided people
(01:46:16)
through the wheel of awareness practice
(01:46:18)
in the room most of them have never
(01:46:20)
meditated before in their life and in
(01:46:23)
the practice two things came out when
(01:46:27)
people finally discussed it was bending
(01:46:29)
the spoke around into the Hub itself it
(01:46:31)
just experience this pure awareness this
(01:46:33)
sense of wholeness the sense of love and
(01:46:36)
the other was the fourth segment of the
(01:46:38)
rim which you do after you basically
(01:46:41)
have done this bending of the spoke
(01:46:42)
business you then go to the fourth
(01:46:44)
segment it's a relational sense where
(01:46:46)
you start to feel the connections with
(01:46:50)
other people people in the room people
(01:46:52)
in your community people out in the
(01:46:54)
country and then to all living beings
(01:46:57)
and so it builds this kind of connection
(01:46:59)
and kind
(01:47:00)
intention so afterwards the feeling in
(01:47:03)
the room was completely different and
(01:47:05)
Elijah at that meeting said what did you
(01:47:08)
just do it's magic you know and people
(01:47:10)
could now talk to each other and there
(01:47:12)
was this openness and people were really
(01:47:14)
vulnerable across you know the racial
(01:47:16)
divides and he was like blown away and I
(01:47:19)
said Elijah I don't think it's magic I
(01:47:22)
think that people live live on their
(01:47:23)
rims with what they've been taught in
(01:47:25)
society and some of it's just ingroup
(01:47:28)
outgroup distinction but when you get to
(01:47:30)
that Hub when you get to Pure awareness
(01:47:33)
when did you get to the wholeness that
(01:47:35)
we're all seeking receptiveness
(01:47:37)
receptiveness exactly yeah then you see
(01:47:41)
just like this this Forest Pand populace
(01:47:43)
that I also talk about in the
(01:47:44)
interconnected book you see that we're
(01:47:46)
just in that Forest there's 48,000
(01:47:49)
quaking aspirin trees but when you go 6
(01:47:53)
in benath the surface you realize
(01:47:54)
there's one root ball you test the DNA
(01:47:57)
you realize it's one tree so that that
(01:48:01)
metaphor really it's actual Forest but
(01:48:04)
is that all of our bodies are just
(01:48:07)
manifestations like Panda populace of
(01:48:09)
the same root ball and once they do the
(01:48:11)
wheel of awareness and they get
(01:48:13)
receptive they look with love to the
(01:48:16)
face of the person sitting next to them
(01:48:19)
sitting across the room from them that
(01:48:20)
they previously saw with hate that they
(01:48:22)
saw with hate or
(01:48:23)
fear and we're terrified of you know and
(01:48:27)
Elijah and I just did the rest of the
(01:48:29)
morning you know working with people now
(01:48:32)
when they came from this P place of
(01:48:33)
connection I do this with parliaments
(01:48:36)
who are having fights about things and
(01:48:38)
people can get into that receptive space
(01:48:40)
relatively rapidly not everybody does
(01:48:42)
but you when you get just enough people
(01:48:44)
getting there they bring the love into
(01:48:46)
the room and I say it's like candle
(01:48:47)
light you know if you have one candle
(01:48:49)
that's lit then it can light up another
(01:48:52)
one and it doesn't make the light go
(01:48:53)
away from the first one and you can sort
(01:48:55)
of spread the light I love it I
(01:48:57)
absolutely love it I hope everyone goes
(01:48:59)
and actually checks it out and does the
(01:49:00)
wheel of awareness meditation on there
(01:49:03)
um the four Ps are parenting yeah the
(01:49:05)
SES yeah the four s's no but the four Ps
(01:49:08)
there are Caroline Welsh wrote my wife
(01:49:10)
wrote a beautiful book called The Gift
(01:49:12)
of presents which talks about the four
(01:49:14)
piece okay so let's get to the s's so
(01:49:17)
yeah that's that's that's funny she'll
(01:49:19)
she'll probably think you were
(01:49:20)
channeling
(01:49:21)
her um
(01:49:24)
yeah so to give like a very short
(01:49:26)
background so people understand you know
(01:49:28)
I used to be in Pediatrics I then
(01:49:30)
trained in Psychiatry and child
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psychiatry then I became an attachment
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researcher so I'm trained to study
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parent child relationships through the
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scientific lens of a form of
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Developmental science where we study
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attachment and one of my main areas of
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focus was parents states of mind and
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what that means is you can dive into the
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mind of you as a parent with something
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called the adult attachment interview
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and with the most robust power over
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anything else even someone watching you
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at home for a year we can predict how
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your child will be attached to you
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whether it's securely or non- securely
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and that security of attachment of your
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child essentially predicts all sorts of
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things like your child's emotional
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resilience their capacity for mutually
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rewarding relationships with others we
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call it an attachment stance or
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attachment strategy and security is what
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you want to aim for as best you can the
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great news from this field of attachment
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research which I'm trained in is that it
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isn't what happened to you that will
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determine if your child is securely
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attached to
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you it's how you've made sense of what
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happened to
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you and the importance of that finding
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cannot be overstated in other words
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people sometimes come to me and say oh
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terrible things happened to be my
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childhood and I'll never get over it
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I'll never be a good parent I'll go wait
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a second wait a second the research
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shows that I know you're concerned about
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that but if you can make sense of your
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childhood experiences and how they
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affected you you can liberate yourself
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from perpetrating that which was done to
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you onto your kids so that I wrote up in
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a book with my daughter's preschool
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director Mary harzel called parenting
(01:51:18)
from the inside out and once I wrote
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that book which starts with the iance of
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attachment and now we'll talk about the
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's I could write all the other five or
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six or whatever parenting books I've
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written where I always say start with
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parenting from the inside out because
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that's what the research shows make
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sense of your own childhood experiences
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first yeah and then figure out what do I
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do with my kids yeah a that the truth
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when that book was first coming out one
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of my first teachers was Barry
(01:51:46)
brazzleton a pediatrician back a while
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ago he passed away recently and you know
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when I said to Barry when should we give
(01:51:55)
this to parents he said right away even
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when they're pregnant and I'm not sure
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pregnancy is the best time but
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definitely before yeah yeah you you want
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to read it so that being said you know
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as an educator and as a you know
(01:52:09)
therapist for families what I needed to
(01:52:12)
do is take this entire field of
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attachment and make it really
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understandable not just for the
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academics I was working with but for
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parents so basically my son summary of
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the entire field of attachment comes
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down to four S's and here they
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are when you get the first three S's and
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if you don't get them any of them the
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parent recognizes there's a rupture
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there's a
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disconnection and readily and reliably
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makes a repair so there's no such thing
(01:52:43)
as perfect parenting there's only
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showing up and being present as a parent
(01:52:47)
with good intention and being aware
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being mindful so I say that because
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people freak out go oh my I haven't been
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doing it if you haven't been doing it
(01:52:56)
fine now you can make a repair it's
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never too late to make a repair so
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that's the important place to start and
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if you can be kind to your inner
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experience because we're all coming
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through a hard road yeah you know and
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parenting is one of the hardest things
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to do in general and these days
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especially so the first s is the word
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seen s n and when when a child feels
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seen it isn't just that you're using
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your eyes to see their behavior it means
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you're using what I call a mindsight
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lens to see their feelings what has
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meaning for them what was their
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intention what were they remembering the
(01:53:34)
inner nature of their mental lives is
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what I mean by the word seen and it's
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very clear from the research parents who
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take the time and develop the skills
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because they're learnable skills to see
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the inner life of the child have
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children who develop secure attachment
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okay second second s soothed what this
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means is your child could be distressed
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they've gone through what I call a
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window of Tolerance they're in chaos
(01:54:01)
they're in rigidity they're shut down
(01:54:03)
you know those moments they're not in
(01:54:05)
this kind of integrated flow and at that
(01:54:07)
moment you yourself because of a set of
(01:54:10)
neurons in you called mirror neurons
(01:54:11)
which should have been called I think
(01:54:13)
sponge neurons you sponge in your kids
(01:54:15)
distress so their distress may make you
(01:54:17)
distressed so if you don't have your
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presence there or your receptive you may
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become reactive even as they become
(01:54:24)
reactive which just amplifies all the
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reactivity so soothing your child is
(01:54:31)
more than oh let me just you know try to
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put a Band-Aid on their wound it's
(01:54:35)
really giving them the comfort that
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allows them to see that I as your
(01:54:40)
son can be as distressed as I can be and
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you don't leave
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me you stay present with me you're able
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to hold a space for my distress
(01:54:53)
and in that connection you
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establish ah my nervous system which is
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immature is able to calm down and that's
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what we mean by
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soothing don't forget there's no such
(01:55:05)
thing as perfect parenting you may not
(01:55:06)
see your child all the time you we don't
(01:55:09)
don't sue them all the time but to be
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able to do that and say wow that pushed
(01:55:13)
my hot button I was having a hard time
(01:55:15)
when you were screaming yelling like
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that let me try to come back and soothe
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you I'm so sorry I couldn't do it then
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you can make a repair repair repair and
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the the fourth the third s before the
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fourth of security the third s is safe
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so safe of course is keeping your child
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protected from injury but it's also not
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being a source of emotional
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fear where you know and I say this in
(01:55:40)
all my books there are times when you
(01:55:42)
know I would flip my lid and start
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screaming or say ridiculous things or
(01:55:45)
whatever and I would terrify my kids I
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had to make a repair after that kids are
(01:55:51)
meant to be kept safe by their
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attachment figures their parents and if
(01:55:55)
we have unresolved trauma or unresolved
(01:55:58)
loss the research is very clear we're
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more prone to doing things that we don't
(01:56:03)
even want to do yeah that are
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unintentional that terrify our
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kids and even when we alter our own
(01:56:11)
State because we're flipping out that
(01:56:13)
can be terrifying if we get drunk that
(01:56:15)
can be terrifying we're yelling at our
(01:56:16)
spouse that can be terrifying and the
(01:56:18)
other ones that are obvious like abuse
(01:56:20)
neglect yeah you know so a wide range of
(01:56:24)
what creates non-safety and I don't mean
(01:56:27)
a kid wants ice cream before dinner you
(01:56:28)
say no and they go you make me mad you
(01:56:31)
make me I want I no you don't this is
(01:56:33)
not about just giving them everything
(01:56:35)
they want it's about not terrorizing
(01:56:37)
them yeah setting limits is extremely
(01:56:40)
important for kids when they have this
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and when they're not there there's a
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repair made when there's a rupture and a
(01:56:46)
reliable and relatively um rapid
(01:56:50)
way then a child develops security which
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is this sense of wholeness this sense of
(01:56:55)
resilience the sense of I can do this
(01:56:58)
and you know we're still on a life of
(01:57:00)
you know do or die you know in this
(01:57:01)
world outside the womb so no matter how
(01:57:04)
great our parenting is life is still
(01:57:06)
hard but security of attachment gives
(01:57:08)
the best kind of
(01:57:10)
resilience that we can give our kids and
(01:57:14)
the great news is that if you've had a
(01:57:16)
really hard childhood
(01:57:18)
yourself dive into parenting From the
(01:57:20)
Inside Out Mary and I wrote that to be a
(01:57:23)
big
(01:57:24)
hug and it's a guide to saying how do I
(01:57:27)
actually make sense in my life do that
(01:57:29)
book it's a workbook basically and the
(01:57:32)
great news is and this is you know I was
(01:57:34)
trained as a narrative scientist when
(01:57:36)
our narrative process literally makes
(01:57:38)
sense in the two ways that we mean it
(01:57:40)
makes sense meaning what's the logical
(01:57:42)
way my childhood affected me but makes
(01:57:44)
sense as in I sense my body I feel these
(01:57:48)
things you're able to integrate memory
(01:57:50)
into things that were terrifying before
(01:57:52)
and you integrate it and you make sense
(01:57:54)
of your life and that's how you come to
(01:57:56)
allow your personality to relax and stop
(01:57:59)
being a prison become more like a
(01:58:00)
playground it allows you to be more
(01:58:02)
receptive with kind intention so
(01:58:04)
intention for sure that's kind um and
(01:58:07)
that's how we want to bring our presence
(01:58:10)
to our kids and I love that Dan I mean
(01:58:12)
you just set the stage for a second
(01:58:15)
conversation at some point in the future
(01:58:16)
because i' love to dive into parenting
(01:58:18)
but I think that's really
(01:58:20)
helpful you want to help your kid kids
(01:58:22)
feel seen soothed safe and when you can
(01:58:27)
do that they will also feel secure
(01:58:30)
absolutely I love that message that
(01:58:32)
there's no such thing as perfect
(01:58:34)
parenting if you make a mistake you can
(01:58:37)
take responsibility and own up and
(01:58:41)
apologize and repair I think that's a
(01:58:43)
really nice message yeah and then really
(01:58:46)
broadening it
(01:58:47)
out really this idea that
(01:58:52)
if you can make sense of your life
(01:58:55)
history in the ways that you've
(01:58:58)
described yes that helps you become a
(01:59:00)
better
(01:59:01)
parents but frankly it helps you become
(01:59:03)
a better human being you're going to be
(01:59:06)
a better partner a better friend a
(01:59:08)
better colleague you're going to be less
(01:59:12)
reactive and more receptive absolutely
(01:59:15)
that's that's exactly it so Dan for the
(01:59:19)
person who heard us talk and who's
(01:59:23)
interested in exploring more yes there's
(01:59:25)
your brand new book personality and
(01:59:27)
wholeness in therapy integrating nine
(01:59:30)
pattern of Developmental Pathways and
(01:59:32)
clinical practice we've touched on some
(01:59:34)
of the concepts I know it's a lot deeper
(01:59:36)
in that but for someone who feels lost
(01:59:38)
in life who doesn't know where to go
(01:59:41)
next who feels that they're struggling
(01:59:43)
but senses some Hope from our
(01:59:47)
conversation today
(01:59:49)
yeah what words of advice would you give
(01:59:51)
to them words of advice you
(01:59:55)
know there's a great quote from the
(01:59:58)
wonderful poet and singer songwriter um
(02:00:01)
Leonard
(02:00:02)
Cohen that uh I took Alex seagull my son
(02:00:06)
Alex you know to see one of my heroes
(02:00:09)
which is also one of his Heroes and it
(02:00:11)
was fortunately obviously before he
(02:00:12)
passed away recently and the lines go
(02:00:15)
like
(02:00:16)
this ring the bells that still can
(02:00:20)
ring forget your perfect
(02:00:24)
offering there's a crack in
(02:00:28)
everything that's where the light gets
(02:00:33)
in Dan it's been a real pleasure talking
(02:00:36)
to you thank you for coming on the show
(02:00:38)
thank you it's been really wonderful to
(02:00:40)
be here with you rangan really great if
(02:00:42)
you enjoyed that conversation then I
(02:00:44)
think you are really going to enjoy this
(02:00:46)
one the only challenge I think with
(02:00:48)
addictions is that if you can't think
(02:00:51)
greater than how you feel your life will
(02:00:54)
stay the same yeah the solution then is
