From the Inside Out: Attachment Theory & Mindful Parenting with Dr. Dan Siegel (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:01) [Music] (00:00:09) hello and welcome to reimagining love (00:00:11) I'm Dr Alexandra (00:00:13) Solomon relationships have the power to (00:00:16) wound us and the power to heal us as a (00:00:19) clinical psychologist author and (00:00:22) professor at Northwestern University (00:00:24) I've devoted my life to studying (00:00:25) intimate Partnerships and family (00:00:27) Dynamics on reimagining love I'm here to (00:00:30) translate complex clinical topics into (00:00:33) tools and takeaways that you can use in (00:00:35) your relationships today if you're ready (00:00:37) to develop relational self-awareness and (00:00:40) create vibrant and loving relationships (00:00:42) with the people who matter most to you (00:00:44) you've come to the right place I'm so (00:00:47) glad that you're (00:00:48) [Music] (00:00:59) here I am so pleased to share today's (00:01:02) episode with you I had the opportunity (00:01:04) to bring a legendary guest onto the show (00:01:06) Dr Dan seagull he is an absolute Giant (00:01:10) in the world of psychology Psychotherapy (00:01:12) and interpersonal neurobiology as you'll (00:01:15) hear in the beginning of our (00:01:16) conversation his work is integral to My (00:01:18) Life as a therapist and a teacher and in (00:01:21) my life as a wife and a mother Dr Dan (00:01:24) seal is a clinical professor of (00:01:26) Psychiatry at the UCLA School of (00:01:28) Medicine and the founding co-director (00:01:30) director of the mindful awareness (00:01:32) Research Center at UCLA he's also the (00:01:35) executive director of The mindsight (00:01:37) Institute which focuses on the (00:01:39) development of mindsight teaches Insight (00:01:41) empathy and integration to individuals (00:01:44) families and (00:01:46) communities Dr seagull has published (00:01:48) extensively for both the professional (00:01:51) and lay audiences his five New York (00:01:54) Times bestsellers are aware the science (00:01:57) and practice of presence m a journey to (00:02:01) the heart of Being Human brainstorm the (00:02:04) power and purpose of the teenage brain (00:02:07) and two books with Tina Payne Bryson PhD (00:02:11) the whole brain child and no drama (00:02:14) discipline it was such a treat to speak (00:02:16) with Dan about his current initiatives (00:02:19) and to answer a thoughtful listener (00:02:21) question about parenting and breaking (00:02:23) intergenerational patterns I cannot (00:02:26) think of a better individual to consult (00:02:27) with me on these issues he approaches (00:02:30) the question with such wisdom and (00:02:32) compassion I hope that you enjoy this (00:02:34) conversation as much as I (00:02:38) did hi Dan thank you so much for being (00:02:41) here with us today Alexandra thank you (00:02:44) for having me so you know you and I have (00:02:46) crossed paths a few times at (00:02:48) psychotherapy networker but this is our (00:02:51) first time talking and what I need you (00:02:53) to know right off the bat is it's (00:02:56) impossible to overstate the profound (00:02:58) impact that your work has had on every (00:03:02) aspect of my life oh my gosh we're just (00:03:06) going to start right there right thank (00:03:08) you I became a mama we became parents in (00:03:12) 2002 so I technically had to go at alone (00:03:15) for like a year before parenting From (00:03:17) the Inside Out came out but then I had (00:03:20) that book that was with me when we were (00:03:23) parents of really little people and then (00:03:25) when our kids were a bit older I had the (00:03:27) whole brain child with me and then as (00:03:30) they became teens I had brainstorm with (00:03:32) me so you have had a really wonderful (00:03:36) publishing schedule that has just (00:03:37) tracked right along with our family's (00:03:40) development and I have just savored (00:03:43) those books and taught from them taught (00:03:45) parenting workshops from them and (00:03:48) they've been Central to who I am as a (00:03:50) mother but then you also need to know (00:03:52) that as a therapist and an author and a (00:03:55) speaker I cite your work all the time I (00:03:57) teach your work I share your work so I (00:04:00) bring you with me just about everywhere (00:04:02) I go so my first thing is just thank you (00:04:05) thank you for you you are quite welcome (00:04:08) and I'm glad we could coordinate the (00:04:09) schedule of your raising children with u (00:04:13) writing books with my wonderful (00:04:15) co-authors Mary Hartzel and Tina Payne (00:04:18) Bryson it's an honor to work with them (00:04:21) and it's really uh with a lot of (00:04:23) gratitude that I can say we all would (00:04:25) receive that uh it was helpful and (00:04:28) supportive of your journey as a (00:04:30) parent so when we start an episode of (00:04:33) reimagining love and I get to have a (00:04:35) guest expert with me I like to start (00:04:38) with this relational self-awareness (00:04:40) question of mine are you ready for the (00:04:42) question uh as ready as I hope I can be (00:04:46) yes I would love for you to talk with me (00:04:49) and with us about a growing Edge that (00:04:52) you are currently working on in one of (00:04:54) your important relationships and what (00:04:57) has been teaching you lately you know (00:05:01) right at this (00:05:03) moment I think the biggest growth Edge (00:05:06) is with the students who come to the (00:05:08) mindsight (00:05:10) Institute and you know I've been (00:05:12) teaching now for over 30 years and as (00:05:16) culture in on the planet the human ways (00:05:20) that we connect with each other and (00:05:22) especially in the United States have (00:05:23) evolved of the the viral pandemic we've (00:05:27) realized that there is a pandemic of (00:05:29) social (00:05:31) Injustice and as a a person with white (00:05:35) skin living in a white dominant Society (00:05:39) it's never been more clear I think to (00:05:42) many of us in this position of being in (00:05:44) the majority that we've actually missed (00:05:47) out on what people who've been (00:05:49) marginalized have been saying for a long (00:05:52) long time for hundreds of years and so (00:05:55) you know I'm really trying to recognize (00:05:57) the privilege that being in white SK (00:06:00) skin has meant and having the (00:06:02) educational background I have and the (00:06:04) professional training and also just in (00:06:07) terms of my gender identity and my (00:06:09) sexual orientation being in the majority (00:06:12) gives us this experience of not having (00:06:14) to realize the ways in which being (00:06:19) identified from the outside as a member (00:06:22) of a certain race or a certain sexual (00:06:25) orientation or gender identity that's (00:06:27) not in the majority you can be (00:06:29) marginalized and humanized it's easy as (00:06:32) a white heterosexual male to to just not (00:06:35) even think about those things so I think (00:06:38) The Cutting Edge for me lately has been (00:06:41) to kind of wake up to that privilege and (00:06:43) to wake up to the ways unintentionally (00:06:46) it can be harmful in actually ignoring (00:06:51) the meaning of the socially constructed (00:06:55) race that is the process that gives rise (00:06:58) to the horrible dehumanization of racism (00:07:01) and sadly in unintentional and kind of (00:07:05) painfully ironic Way by not (00:07:08) recognizing that someone is from a (00:07:11) marginalized group even though the (00:07:13) intention might be to see everyone as an (00:07:15) individual you know the unique (00:07:17) individual they are which of course they (00:07:18) are but not recognizing that then you (00:07:21) miss on things and there's a very simple (00:07:24) example I'll give is you know as a (00:07:26) scientist there were studies out of UCLA (00:07:29) and other places that showed that when (00:07:32) you (00:07:33) linguistically name an emotional state (00:07:37) using the left hemisphere's linguistic (00:07:39) abilities you calm the whole brain (00:07:41) including the right hemisphere which (00:07:43) sometimes experiences more direct (00:07:46) intense emotional arousal so I made up (00:07:48) this phrase name it to tame it so (00:07:50) recently you know and that's been very (00:07:52) useful for a lot of people and it's (00:07:53) rewarding to make up a phrase and people (00:07:55) you know find it helpful but recently a (00:07:58) colleague of mine uh actually mentioned (00:08:01) through some of the works at our (00:08:02) Institute that name entertainment was (00:08:04) triggering for her as an (00:08:05) African-American woman because the (00:08:08) history of people for 400 years in the (00:08:11) United States as slaves who were viewed (00:08:14) by the majority as wild needing taming (00:08:17) really triggered her well when I heard (00:08:19) that um I said oh my God I never thought (00:08:23) of taming that way but I'm going to (00:08:25) change it so I changed it to name it to (00:08:27) frame it meaning put it in a frame like (00:08:29) a picture frame so you can see it and (00:08:32) then work with it because you can (00:08:34) contain it within the frame and that's (00:08:36) been more useful and that was this (00:08:39) collaborative communication about my not (00:08:42) having that same triggering and not (00:08:44) being aware that it would trigger so (00:08:46) those are that's an example of things (00:08:48) where I'm really trying and (00:08:50) unfortunately when you're in a position (00:08:51) of privilege you can be blind to your (00:08:55) own blind spots so you actually don't (00:08:57) know what you don't know so I'm trying (00:09:00) to be really open and inviting the (00:09:03) students at The mindsight Institute to (00:09:05) not only talk about this and be aware of (00:09:07) it that we all have implicit bias but to (00:09:09) give us feedback about times when we (00:09:12) unintentionally mess up and how we can (00:09:15) together as a community of Learners (00:09:17) support a culture of diversity of (00:09:19) inclusion really of mutual belonging (00:09:22) that uh we try to created The mindsight (00:09:25) Institute I try to keep a lot of things (00:09:28) going the emotional experience of it the (00:09:30) relational awareness of it yeah and also (00:09:32) you know the scientific knowledge that (00:09:35) Ed tronic so beautifully writes about (00:09:36) about ruptures being inevitable in human (00:09:40) relationships and the key is not to say (00:09:43) oh I'm a bad person because there was a (00:09:44) break in our connection and (00:09:46) communication but instead see that as (00:09:49) human and then to say well how do I (00:09:52) learn from this rupture and make a (00:09:55) reconnection that involves you know (00:09:57) being very open and showing up for the (00:10:00) experience and then making a repair and (00:10:03) if that's done collaboratively then it (00:10:05) can be a beautiful thing like in this (00:10:07) example of name it to tame it there it (00:10:09) was well and now I get to use that going (00:10:11) forward because I use name it to tame it (00:10:13) all the time so that's wonderful so now (00:10:14) I will spread that message and for that (00:10:17) for the person who brought it to you you (00:10:19) know as somebody who has moved through (00:10:21) the world as a person of color how many (00:10:24) times did that person have the (00:10:25) experience of not speaking up of just (00:10:28) stuffing it down of thinking it's not (00:10:29) safe enough in here to raise this (00:10:32) concern for you that your classroom (00:10:34) became a safe enough space that she (00:10:36) would take what is absolutely a risk of (00:10:39) letting a white person know there's (00:10:41) something upsetting and triggering and (00:10:43) not quite right here like that is a risk (00:10:46) absolutely and one that she probably (00:10:48) either hasn't taken because who can take (00:10:50) risk when things are unsafe or has taken (00:10:53) and Ben shut down because the white (00:10:56) person moved into defensiveness or shame (00:10:59) and so I can imagine that there's a way (00:11:01) in which that experience like she gets (00:11:03) to settle that experience someplace (00:11:05) inside of her that hopefully then gets (00:11:07) to live in contrast to what very likely (00:11:10) were many other experiences that did not (00:11:12) go the way the experience with you went (00:11:15) absolutely and that's you know I think (00:11:16) that's our responsibility and you know (00:11:19) getting informed you know whether it's (00:11:21) watching you know videos about this (00:11:23) about not only white privilege but (00:11:25) reading books like Isabelle wilkerson's (00:11:27) book cast or I kend's book on how to be (00:11:31) an anti-racist or stamp from the (00:11:33) beginning there are lots of ways that a (00:11:36) number of us and hopefully it's a big (00:11:38) shift in our white dominant culture (00:11:41) where we didn't want to say white (00:11:43) dominant culture before and uh ignoring (00:11:47) the 400e history of slavery and then (00:11:51) even after slavery formally ended the (00:11:54) systemic racism that made it basically (00:11:56) continued slavery all you have to do is (00:11:58) study Redline Ing and other Jim Crow (00:12:01) laws and other ways in which people of (00:12:03) color especially you know (00:12:04) African-Americans have been marginalized (00:12:06) dehumanized and killed as we're learning (00:12:09) sadly with the many murders including (00:12:12) that of George Floyd which since it was (00:12:14) captured on a video couldn't be ignored (00:12:17) by the world and I think that that video (00:12:21) capturing of what has been happening (00:12:23) anyway not you know off video made (00:12:26) people go whoa what is going on here and (00:12:29) you know when you understand the biology (00:12:31) of ingroup outgroup distinctions that (00:12:34) the human brain makes especially under (00:12:37) threat that if someone is defined as a (00:12:40) member of the out (00:12:42) group when there's a threat that (00:12:45) individual is considered not a human (00:12:47) being and the part of our own brain that (00:12:50) looks at person says oh there's a person (00:12:52) with feelings with a family with meaning (00:12:54) to their life I'm going to honor them (00:12:56) and treat them with empathy and (00:12:57) compassion if they're in your in group (00:12:59) group sure you treat them with kindness (00:13:01) but sadly the human brain can be not (00:13:04) only compassionate to ingroup people but (00:13:06) incredibly hostile and murderous towards (00:13:10) the outgroup people which basically (00:13:11) defines not only these terrible terrible (00:13:14) terrible murders that keep on going on (00:13:17) but the whole experience of genocide and (00:13:19) racism is based on this and all you have (00:13:22) to do is read the book cast by Wilkerson (00:13:25) or implicit bias I think by Jennifer (00:13:27) everheart that we all have these biases (00:13:30) so we need to use Consciousness to grow (00:13:32) Beyond it as your question is asking us (00:13:34) to do and in the (00:13:36) anti-racist frame it's not I'm a racist (00:13:39) or I'm not a racist as kendi powerfully (00:13:43) describes yes it's you living a life of (00:13:46) actively trying to go Against Racism (00:13:49) because those are the real choices (00:13:51) racism or anti-racism where you say yeah (00:13:55) we all have implicit biases can we use (00:13:57) Consciousness collaboration connection (00:14:00) to rise above what is an understandable (00:14:03) human ingroup outgroup distinction that (00:14:05) we need to get Beyond which is in some (00:14:08) ways it's the most natural extension of (00:14:11) the work you've been doing for decades (00:14:13) is this is just another lens of (00:14:16) relationship of noticing what the (00:14:19) pattern the kneejerk less than conscious (00:14:22) reaction is and working again and again (00:14:25) and again to refine go back to that (00:14:28) plane of possibility and then select (00:14:30) another kind of a response but yes it's (00:14:33) happening what we do within an (00:14:35) individual what we do within a couple (00:14:37) system what we do within a family system (00:14:39) what you're talking about now is how do (00:14:41) we bring those understandings to this (00:14:44) larger system you know as an attachment (00:14:48) researcher myself for all these decades (00:14:50) studying communication patterns and (00:14:53) relationships I think one of the (00:14:55) understandable patterns that happens is (00:14:58) instead of calling (00:15:00) forward you know there's a process of (00:15:02) calling out you know and saying this (00:15:06) micro hurt me you are you know doing (00:15:09) this bad thing even though if it's not (00:15:11) intentional it's a bad bad thing you're (00:15:12) a bad person and that calling out (00:15:16) creates an automatic as I've experienced (00:15:18) myself (00:15:19) defensiveness that doesn't lead to (00:15:21) collaboration so with Elijah Cummings (00:15:23) you know Elijah in this Workshop had (00:15:26) just been on a television show he came (00:15:28) and one of the question he asked in this (00:15:30) Workshop to me when we were starting our (00:15:33) together he said Dan what should I do (00:15:35) when the host says you know Elijah do (00:15:38) you think that's (00:15:39) racism and he goes you know where if I (00:15:43) say it's racism if I pull that card it's (00:15:46) going to shut down collaboration Elijah (00:15:48) said so I said well instead of (00:15:51) pulling the racism card as you're naming (00:15:53) at Elijah what if you considered the (00:15:56) word (00:15:57) dehumanizing MH and just said that act (00:16:00) was (00:16:02) dehumanizing and then it just said oh my (00:16:05) I'm so sorry I didn't mean to dehumanize (00:16:07) you and then it isn't loaded with all (00:16:10) the things of are you a racist or you're (00:16:12) not a racist and Elijah was really (00:16:14) excited about using that in a way (00:16:17) calling someone in rather than calling (00:16:19) them out and what we learned in the (00:16:21) wheel of awareness practice was the (00:16:24) calling in is a way of doing the inner (00:16:27) work you know that Rhonda McGee so (00:16:31) beautifully talks about professor of law (00:16:32) at University of San Francisco she talks (00:16:35) about about the inner work of racial (00:16:37) Justice and that there's an inner work (00:16:39) as a white person too of saying okay how (00:16:43) do I go inward so whatever kind of (00:16:46) defensiveness I might have or whatever (00:16:47) kind of implicit bias we all have I get (00:16:50) to that Hub beneath the rim you know I (00:16:54) get to that plane of possibility where (00:16:56) Connection open awareness and love is (00:16:58) there so I can really show up for this (00:17:01) experience well you have set up a really (00:17:04) easy segue for me because we have a (00:17:07) listener question but before we get to (00:17:08) The Listener question I have to ask you (00:17:12) a bit about adult attachment Styles (00:17:15) because I've been doing the work of (00:17:17) relationship education for over two (00:17:19) decades now and so I have been teaching (00:17:22) undergraduate students it's about (00:17:23) attachment science for years and years (00:17:25) and years what's wild and wonderful is (00:17:28) attachment science has very clearly (00:17:30) exported therapy offices and the Ivory (00:17:33) Tower and is now in the vernacular it's (00:17:35) in the public sphere it's on Instagram (00:17:37) it's in social media there's lots and (00:17:39) lots of talk about attachment Styles and (00:17:43) I know that what what we will refer to (00:17:44) them as is attachment strategies right I (00:17:46) know that's the language that you use (00:17:48) rather than attachment Styles which (00:17:50) points me to my question I sometimes (00:17:53) struggle with way in which I feel like (00:17:56) the risk of attachment Styles being so (00:18:00) in the common language is that they end (00:18:03) up getting talked about as categories as (00:18:06) identities rather than the way that you (00:18:09) would talk about them and it is (00:18:10) especially around the modern dating (00:18:13) landscape is so incredibly complicated I (00:18:16) have been married to the same guy for 23 (00:18:18) years and so I have a ton ton ton of (00:18:20) empathy for the challenges and (00:18:22) complexities of dating but there are (00:18:24) ways in which I hear people say things (00:18:27) like they're avoidantly attached and (00:18:29) anxiously attached and really trying to (00:18:31) size this up almost like the way we (00:18:33) would talk about a zodiac sign or some (00:18:36) other kind of descriptor that ends up (00:18:39) being pretty far removed from the (00:18:41) underpinnings of it so I would love for (00:18:45) us to just talk a bit about what do you (00:18:48) want people especially who are dating (00:18:50) who are early in Partnerships to be (00:18:52) thinking about and keeping in mind (00:18:54) around their own attachment approaches (00:18:57) and strategies and what they might be (00:19:00) picking up in a potential partner well (00:19:02) Alexander you have named some of the (00:19:06) fundamental issues (00:19:08) around the translation of attachment (00:19:12) research and Theory which can be called (00:19:15) very appropriately attachment science (00:19:18) with you know applied attachment let's (00:19:21) just make up that term the first thing (00:19:23) to say from the science point of view is (00:19:26) that there's a history of two (00:19:30) individuals getting together to (00:19:32) collaborate to form the basis of the (00:19:34) science of attachment and that's Mary (00:19:37) answorth and John Balby who are no (00:19:39) longer physically with us in a living (00:19:42) embodied form but they live on with us (00:19:45) in our discussions the original (00:19:48) emergence from bulby and ainsworth's (00:19:51) work was to study parents and how they (00:19:55) interact with their infants and then (00:19:58) later their children and then to study (00:20:01) different strategies if you will of (00:20:04) parenting and that will'll just call you (00:20:07) know the original attachment research (00:20:10) one of the first graduate students of (00:20:12) Mary answorth is a you know an (00:20:14) individual named Mary Maine and Mary (00:20:17) Maine became my teacher and I studied (00:20:19) with her in Virginia she was at UC (00:20:22) Berkeley but we spent part of a summer (00:20:24) in Virginia where I got a chance to (00:20:26) actually work with and be with Mary (00:20:28) answorth who was still alive then and in (00:20:31) that experience the emerging field of (00:20:34) attachment research was coming into (00:20:36) what's called representational aspects (00:20:38) that is we were studying the adult (00:20:39) attachment interview and how you could (00:20:42) see how an adult had what's called a (00:20:45) state of mind with respect to attachment (00:20:48) that could be correlated with how the (00:20:52) infant would become attached to that (00:20:54) parent So at around the same time (00:20:58) another another set of researchers was (00:21:00) taking a different strategy to study (00:21:03) initially romantic adult attachments (00:21:05) with a simple survey that you could put (00:21:08) in a newspaper and ask people when (00:21:10) you're in relationships do you feel like (00:21:12) you can get your needs met and they (00:21:14) deserve to be met and if you said yes (00:21:16) you called a secure style and that's (00:21:19) where the word style came up Mary (00:21:20) anworth and Mary Maine never use the (00:21:23) word style at least in their teaching of (00:21:25) me and when I by accident would use the (00:21:28) word Style M would correct me and say (00:21:30) it's not a shoe don't call it a style (00:21:32) and I tell yeah because it's it's a (00:21:33) little clunky to say State of Mind with (00:21:35) respect to attachment so we can say (00:21:37) category or strategy or approach you (00:21:40) know but we never use the word style so (00:21:43) when when you see someone using the word (00:21:44) style they're probably a part of this (00:21:46) other romantic attachment study which (00:21:48) has its own validity but did not begin (00:21:51) by studying children they began by this (00:21:54) survey that Phil Shaver initially put (00:21:57) out into the Denver Post and later with (00:21:59) his work with Mario Michener they were (00:22:02) able to study all sorts of cool things (00:22:04) like the brain and stuff unfortunately (00:22:07) the styles that romantic adult (00:22:09) attachment has defined and looked at the (00:22:12) brain and shown their correlates of (00:22:14) brain function with how you answer this (00:22:16) short survey like you know when I'm in (00:22:18) relationships the other people are too (00:22:20) needy and I don't really have any needs (00:22:22) that need to be met that would be called (00:22:24) avoidant or you know when I'm in (00:22:26) relationships my needs are never met and (00:22:28) and my partners never enough or (00:22:29) something that might be called I think (00:22:31) they call that anxious style or (00:22:33) something like that that little survey (00:22:34) which takes you know five minutes to (00:22:36) answer very little or no money to (00:22:39) actually correlate the data very (00:22:41) different from the hour and a half adult (00:22:43) attachment interview and the hours and (00:22:46) hours and hours of going over the (00:22:48) transcript of that interview and then (00:22:50) coming up with this adult attachment the (00:22:54) original adult attachment being the AI (00:22:56) the adult attachment interview but the (00:22:58) same term adult attachment was used by (00:23:01) the SLE romantic people Phil Shaver and (00:23:03) Mario moliner both approaches have (00:23:07) validity however they don't correlate (00:23:09) with each other oh so this this is a (00:23:13) conundrum for the field that you have (00:23:16) them both having validity only they (00:23:19) don't overlap so I wish they would (00:23:22) because it'll be a lot cheaper to give a (00:23:23) little five minute survey seriously (00:23:25) that's right than the roadblock of (00:23:27) needing the funding the time and the (00:23:30) training you know to do the adult (00:23:31) attachment interview so I got a National (00:23:33) Institute of Mental Health Training (00:23:35) Grant back in 1989 to study the adult (00:23:39) attachment interview and then since that (00:23:41) time because I've been a therapist you (00:23:43) know for a long time I've used the AI (00:23:46) the adult attachment interview for most (00:23:48) of my patients you so they get it and (00:23:51) and I've seen over time an in-depth view (00:23:54) of how the process of change emerges (00:23:57) with an individual that I'm having the (00:23:59) privilege to work with anyway that's (00:24:01) very different from the style romantic (00:24:04) attachment that the book attached is (00:24:07) based on even though they don't make the (00:24:09) distinction and statements like your (00:24:12) attachment style is genetically based (00:24:14) that is not true with let's just call it (00:24:17) developmental attachment but apparently (00:24:20) there is some degree of genetic thing so (00:24:23) it's more like temperament so someone (00:24:25) asked me recently what do I think is the (00:24:27) reason they don't correlate it may be (00:24:29) that the adult attachment interview that (00:24:32) I'm trained to give and that looks at (00:24:35) developmental attachment is really (00:24:37) looking at your ability to offer care (00:24:41) for (00:24:42) others and it has a huge correlation (00:24:45) with how that offering went to your (00:24:47) child and shaped their pattern of (00:24:49) attachment whereas the Romantic (00:24:52) attachment I know Phil and Mario don't (00:24:53) want me to use that word I don't know (00:24:54) whether any other were to use because (00:24:57) they used adult attachment I wanted (00:24:58) distinguish it from developmental (00:25:00) studies so I'll just go ahead and use it (00:25:02) even though they don't want to because (00:25:03) it's more than romantic but the Romantic (00:25:05) adult attachment style stuff that may be (00:25:08) your ability to receive care something (00:25:12) like that and maybe that's related to (00:25:13) your temperament so I'm working now with (00:25:16) uh several colleagues on a Model that (00:25:18) looks at how developmental attachment (00:25:21) experience combines with (00:25:23) temperament to shape the emerging (00:25:26) personality you have so it may that what (00:25:30) the Romantic adult attachment style (00:25:34) researchers are studying is personality (00:25:37) that's influenced by temperament which (00:25:39) does have genetic influence whereas the (00:25:43) developmental attachment people which (00:25:45) I'm trained as we're looking at more (00:25:48) relational shaping that's independent of (00:25:52) temperament but it shapes personality (00:25:55) also so we may be looking at either (00:25:58) caregiving or care receiving receiving (00:26:01) um and one may be primarily temperament (00:26:04) you know they haven't named it that way (00:26:05) they call it attachment Styles but it (00:26:08) may actually be more a temperament thing (00:26:10) you know and that's probably why their (00:26:12) statements oh it's genetic so if you're (00:26:14) dating someone who has this attachment (00:26:17) romantic style and they have you know (00:26:19) insecurity you know Run for the hills (00:26:21) because they'll never change in our view (00:26:24) developmental attachment view from the (00:26:27) science of Developmental attachment (00:26:29) where it (00:26:30) began these attachment categories are (00:26:33) completely changeable yes you know and (00:26:35) so that's where the (00:26:37) stance of oh it's genetic and just make (00:26:40) sure you're dating a person with the (00:26:41) right style that is so against what (00:26:45) developmental attachment science says (00:26:48) and in my own work of the last 30 years (00:26:51) helping people transform their (00:26:52) attachment category their attachment (00:26:54) strategy yeah towards security and it's (00:26:58) not a genetic IC (00:27:00) thing what the research shows is that (00:27:03) why understanding attachment why the (00:27:04) science of attachment lands so deeply (00:27:06) for people is it's a very powerful way (00:27:08) for people to start to get their heads (00:27:09) and their hearts around the fact that (00:27:11) our past travels with us and gets (00:27:14) activated in powerful ways in our adult (00:27:18) intimate relationship so that as a (00:27:20) bridge it's a really effective Bridge of (00:27:22) getting people to start to look at how (00:27:24) family of origin Dynamics early (00:27:27) adaptations then play out in the kinds (00:27:30) of needs and longings and distortions (00:27:33) sometimes we will make of our partners (00:27:35) so it's it's incredibly helpful in that (00:27:38) way as long as we also (00:27:41) include the aspect of it's changeable (00:27:44) right this is what Coupes therapy does (00:27:47) this is what deepening relational (00:27:49) self-awareness does is it it helps us (00:27:51) make sense of the things that we (00:27:53) experience growing up and that's a a (00:27:54) through line in your book aware I mean (00:27:57) this is a through line in your work (00:27:59) preceding the book aware but that (00:28:01) there's what happens to us and then (00:28:04) there's how we make sense of what (00:28:05) happens to us and it's the sense making (00:28:08) that so powerfully frees us up from (00:28:11) those early adaptations to come up with (00:28:15) some new moves some new relational moves (00:28:17) that we may not have had available to us (00:28:19) when we were small exactly and you know (00:28:21) there's so much in what you just said (00:28:24) that's so important and so powerful I'll (00:28:26) just start with the first way you began (00:28:29) was you you use the phrase our heads and (00:28:32) our hearts and I was so grateful that (00:28:35) you did that because so many people say (00:28:37) our minds and our hearts and you know (00:28:39) I've worked for a long time to try to (00:28:41) have the world consider that the mind is (00:28:45) actually much bigger than the head and (00:28:50) that if you will you could say there's (00:28:52) the brain in your head there's a brain (00:28:53) around your heart there's a brain around (00:28:55) your intestine and you have this whole (00:28:57) embodied brain that has these three (00:28:59) networks if you will or parallel (00:29:01) distributed networks the next thing to (00:29:02) say is that because the mind is not only (00:29:04) fully (00:29:05) embodied but it's fully (00:29:08) relational then you know from a (00:29:10) developmental attachment point of view (00:29:12) which is a phrase I made up just because (00:29:14) people get confused by the Romantic (00:29:17) attachment style approach and the (00:29:20) research the hard hard research across (00:29:22) cultures on developmental attachment so (00:29:25) I we needed a qualifier so if we just (00:29:27) say attachment science gives us a (00:29:29) feeling like I can be a part of a (00:29:30) relationship that I can give and I can (00:29:32) receive then about 20% of the population (00:29:36) doesn't get that and they're they're not (00:29:38) really seen you know they may be safe (00:29:42) but they're not seen and they're not (00:29:43) soothed easily so they develop an (00:29:45) approach which is basically you as my (00:29:48) parent are not giving me what I need I'm (00:29:50) not a part of a Wii um so I better just (00:29:52) go it alone and that early sense of (00:29:56) autonomy to survive M that's the (00:29:59) strategy for one out of five people in (00:30:02) the United States so you're talking (00:30:03) about around the world percentages are (00:30:05) different but the US that's the (00:30:07) percentage for about 15% 15 you get (00:30:10) what's called ambivalent attachment (00:30:12) where you know we talk about these s's (00:30:14) of are you safe well you're safe but (00:30:17) you're not really (00:30:19) seen accurately and you're not soothed (00:30:22) reliably it's sometimes yes sometimes no (00:30:24) sometimes yes so you have a form of (00:30:26) insecure attachment called ambivalent so (00:30:29) here instead of the avoidantly attached (00:30:31) child so you don't say that the child's (00:30:34) avoidant you say the relationship with (00:30:35) the primary caregivers is avoidant it's (00:30:37) a relationship description here the (00:30:40) ambivalence is my god I've got to (00:30:42) increase my attachment Network to try to (00:30:46) enhance how I'm going to connect with (00:30:48) you my parent because I don't know if (00:30:51) you're there you might be you might not (00:30:52) be you know so it's this intrusiveness (00:30:54) and this uncertainty so there's a lot of (00:30:57) ambivalence literally I I think you're (00:30:59) going to be there but you may not be (00:31:00) there so that's in build an attachment (00:31:02) and then what we study in developmental (00:31:04) attachment is something called (00:31:06) disorganized attachment which in earlier (00:31:09) studies we would say is like around 5 to (00:31:11) 10% of the population but now some (00:31:13) people are saying it's closer to 25 to (00:31:15) 30% so it's it's just maybe reassessed (00:31:18) it's a complicated empirical reason why (00:31:20) that's said but in any event it's not (00:31:22) that it's rare and here what you get is (00:31:25) terms of these s's a child is not safe (00:31:29) because the parent is the source of Fear (00:31:33) And so there's kind of a biological (00:31:34) Paradox created where the deeper (00:31:36) networks in the brain that say Hey I'm (00:31:39) being terrified I should get away from (00:31:40) the source of (00:31:42) Terror that's fine but then a little bit (00:31:44) higher in the brain is a network of (00:31:46) attachment which says hey if I'm scared (00:31:48) I better go to my attachment (00:31:50) figure if the attachment figure the (00:31:53) mother the father or someone else taking (00:31:55) care of the child is the source of (00:31:57) Terror there's a biological Paradox you (00:31:59) have one body but one network says go (00:32:02) toward them to be protected the other (00:32:04) says go away from them because they're (00:32:05) the source of terar so you fragment into (00:32:07) what's called dissociation and you (00:32:09) develop disorganized attachment so these (00:32:12) are the four groupings secure I call it (00:32:15) non-secure avoidant non-secure (00:32:17) ambivalent and the disorganized form of (00:32:20) non-security and what we do then is (00:32:23) understand you know you can see this in (00:32:24) the book Brainstorm you know it's so (00:32:26) funny I some people said before it came (00:32:29) out don't put a section on attachment (00:32:31) for adolescents because I wrote (00:32:32) brainstorm for adolescence themselves to (00:32:34) read I said why not they said because (00:32:37) those kids are still living with their (00:32:38) parents and you're going to inform them (00:32:40) of what might not be going right at home (00:32:43) I said what's wrong with that and they (00:32:46) said well you're going to create (00:32:47) problems I said I'd rather them go to (00:32:50) their parents and say hey you know I've (00:32:52) been scared of you or hey you know (00:32:55) you're not very connecting to me or hey (00:32:56) you're giving me ambivalent messages (00:32:58) ambiguous messages I'd rather them go (00:33:00) and understand what's going on in their (00:33:01) brain absolutely because then where (00:33:04) tension goes neural firing flows neural (00:33:06) connection grows they can do something (00:33:08) about it earlier while their brain is (00:33:09) remodeling so I left it in and the (00:33:12) adolesence who read it with the feedback (00:33:14) we get is a very important part of the (00:33:15) book you know I say all that because it (00:33:19) comes back to exactly what you said the (00:33:21) key is change is possible so if you see (00:33:25) an attachment thing for the public (00:33:28) where they're saying oh the science of (00:33:30) attachment says you can't change so if (00:33:32) you're dating someone like this just (00:33:34) leave if they're not secure you know (00:33:36) that is so not the case of attachment (00:33:39) science you know it may be in this (00:33:42) attachment style romantic stuff but the (00:33:44) Deep developmental attachment where it (00:33:46) came from and BBY and angor said this (00:33:48) from the beginning is these are working (00:33:51) models that can work to change toward (00:33:54) security (00:33:56) beautiful we have a question from a (00:33:58) listener that I think will bring some of (00:34:00) these threads together so I'd like to (00:34:03) read it to you she's a listener who (00:34:06) writes in from London and she says after (00:34:09) years of therapy that I have done I (00:34:11) still feel scared and a sense of (00:34:13) responsibility when I think of having (00:34:15) children I grew up in a very abusive (00:34:18) family and the thought of ever hurting (00:34:20) my child or doing something similar to (00:34:22) what my family had done to me makes me (00:34:25) feel very scared sometimes I think (00:34:27) having a child is is a great (00:34:28) responsibility one that many people take (00:34:30) too lightly how do I make sure that my (00:34:33) hypothetical children will be happy (00:34:35) healthy and safe in a way having grown (00:34:38) up in an abusive family means the bar is (00:34:40) really low for me to do it better than (00:34:42) my family had done it and I know that (00:34:44) I'm very different from my family but (00:34:46) sometimes I still get scared where do (00:34:49) you want to start with this question (00:34:50) yeah first of all thank you for the (00:34:52) question and just the fact that you're (00:34:55) asking that question is the deep source (00:34:58) of an answer to your question which is (00:35:00) your capacity for awareness and looking (00:35:03) at the science of how change happens (00:35:06) tells us that you are in exactly the (00:35:08) state of mind to invite growth and (00:35:12) change so you know when I wrote the (00:35:15) textbook The Graduate School textbook (00:35:16) the developing mind in its first edition (00:35:20) you know my daughter was in preschool (00:35:22) the preschool director Mary Hartzel (00:35:24) asked me to give lectures about the (00:35:26) textbook to both parents and teachers so (00:35:29) I did these these lectures for the (00:35:32) parent group and our daughter was in (00:35:34) school there and you know we were going (00:35:36) through what it would mean to make sense (00:35:39) of your life and build on the science of (00:35:42) attachment developmental attachment to (00:35:44) say that the best predictor of how a (00:35:46) child turns out is not what happened to (00:35:49) the parent but how the parent has made (00:35:52) sense of what happened to them and you (00:35:54) can have had the worst abuse you can (00:35:56) imagine and I've worked with a lot lots (00:35:58) of people like this who then raise (00:36:00) children and if they've made sense of (00:36:01) their life as the research shows in my (00:36:03) clinical experience over 30 years (00:36:06) supports they are going to have children (00:36:09) who are (00:36:10) thriving so let me repeat that the (00:36:13) research finding shows that if you've (00:36:16) had the most horrible of childhoods but (00:36:19) have done the work to make sense of what (00:36:21) happened to you you can free yourself up (00:36:25) from repeating those abusive patterns on (00:36:28) your children now that research finding (00:36:30) to (00:36:31) me is the most (00:36:33) important science finding for parenting (00:36:38) and for Psychotherapy and for life so (00:36:40) that you can say well oh my God the past (00:36:42) happened I can't change it well you (00:36:44) can't change the past but you can change (00:36:48) how you come to understand in a deep way (00:36:52) how the past affected you how you (00:36:55) adapted to the past and then in the (00:36:57) present moment (00:36:58) with that new way of making sense of (00:37:01) your life then find new strategies of (00:37:04) relating so when Mary was seeing me give (00:37:08) these lectures and one of the moms came (00:37:10) to a lecture and and she said Dan I got (00:37:13) to tell you something I said what she (00:37:15) goes you know all these years our kids (00:37:17) were three and a half four years of age (00:37:19) you know all these years I would flip (00:37:21) out and scream at my daughter and I kept (00:37:24) on saying to myself well it doesn't (00:37:26) matter cuz she's too young to remember (00:37:28) but last night the lecture you taught (00:37:30) about memory and about narrative and (00:37:32) emotion and all that stuff and I came to (00:37:35) realize that it wasn't my fault what I (00:37:39) was (00:37:40) doing but it is my responsibility (00:37:43) responsibility yeah and she said the (00:37:46) shame that before she would feel so (00:37:49) ashamed of what she was doing the shame (00:37:50) would shut her down and then she would (00:37:52) just rationalize and say oh my (00:37:53) daughter's too young doesn't matter (00:37:55) doesn't matter so this way by saying (00:37:57) it's not my fault it is my (00:37:59) responsibility she didn't just say oh (00:38:01) yeah this I was abused as a child but (00:38:03) she was and so this is natural for me to (00:38:06) do no she said okay I was abused so it's (00:38:08) not my fault but it is my responsibility (00:38:10) to do something about it well that was (00:38:13) so inspiring to me and Mary then came to (00:38:16) me and said you know why don't we do a (00:38:18) workshop together and she was such a (00:38:20) she's no longer embodied with us now but (00:38:23) you know she was such a wonderful person (00:38:24) so we started teaching workshops (00:38:26) together but we looked around (00:38:28) what books are around that taught (00:38:29) parents how to make sense of their life (00:38:32) based on attachment research there was (00:38:34) Zero there still is nothing except our (00:38:37) book so we wrote parenting from the (00:38:38) inside out as a really a big hug for all (00:38:42) potential parents or all parents to say (00:38:45) we're going to walk you (00:38:47) through what the science shows about (00:38:50) making sense of your (00:38:52) life so that you can have the skills and (00:38:57) the support (00:38:59) to make sense of some of the most (00:39:00) horrible things that may have happened (00:39:03) and liberate yourself from those (00:39:06) patterns that you had to adapt Back Then (00:39:09) and Now develop the way towards security (00:39:11) so I never would have written any of (00:39:14) these other parenting books had I not (00:39:15) written parenting from the inside out (00:39:17) first with Mary Hartzel and all the ones (00:39:19) with Tina Payne Bryson you know the (00:39:21) whole brain child no drama discipline (00:39:23) the yes brain and the power of showing (00:39:25) up so in terms of this person asking the (00:39:27) question (00:39:28) I would urge you to go to Parenting from (00:39:29) the inside out but know from Alexander (00:39:32) and from me that we've seen it so many (00:39:35) times that people may be scared of (00:39:37) what's going on but they can take the (00:39:40) steps to make sense free themselves up (00:39:42) from past patterns because you're (00:39:44) absolutely right in your intuition (00:39:46) someone who didn't make sense will be (00:39:48) likely to do things they didn't even (00:39:49) want to do so that's the good news is (00:39:52) that the making sense process is a (00:39:53) lifelong journey and making repair of (00:39:56) any ruptures that do arise (00:39:58) that's the key there's no such thing as (00:40:00) perfect parenting there's just being (00:40:03) present as a parent showing up and all (00:40:07) these books will help you do that you (00:40:10) start aware with this really powerful (00:40:13) metaphor that I don't know that I've (00:40:14) read maybe it's been somewhere else and (00:40:16) maybe I've missed it but it just landed (00:40:17) so deeply for me of the salt in the (00:40:19) espresso cup yeah that was such a it (00:40:22) captured for me my own journey of (00:40:25) Shifting away from reactiv ity or (00:40:28) freezing or fleeing all these places (00:40:31) that I can be at risk of going because (00:40:32) we're all at risk of going there and (00:40:34) just increasing like I feel like I'm (00:40:36) always like expanding my chest to kind (00:40:39) of capture this idea of like creating (00:40:41) ever more containment inside of myself (00:40:45) to be able to hold the challenges of (00:40:48) what's happening around me rather than (00:40:50) getting hooked and activated and (00:40:52) foreclosing on a solution by fighting or (00:40:55) fleeing or freezing so can you talk (00:40:58) about a bit that salt analogy that just (00:41:00) works so well for me absolutely and you (00:41:04) know what Alexander's referring to as (00:41:06) the beginning of the book aware and (00:41:09) that's a whole set of skills to do the (00:41:11) wheel of awareness and is an (00:41:13) accompanying workbook called becoming (00:41:15) aware that lets you you know learn the (00:41:18) the skill of what we're about to (00:41:19) describe so while we're going to talk (00:41:21) about the concept of this analogy of the (00:41:23) salt just know that there are very (00:41:26) accessible practic is that when parents (00:41:29) learn them they can be present with (00:41:33) their kids and I'll give you a short (00:41:35) example too in a moment but let's talk (00:41:36) about the analogy first so the analogy I (00:41:39) start aware with is a simple one that (00:41:41) just says if you have a container of (00:41:45) water that's the size of real small like (00:41:47) an espresso cup really teeny container (00:41:50) and you take a tablespoon of salt and (00:41:52) think of the tablespoon of salt as a (00:41:55) challenge in life whatever it might be (00:41:57) you know your child's refusing to let (00:41:59) you brush her teeth or you know she will (00:42:02) only let Mommy put her in bed and you're (00:42:03) the father or something that's just (00:42:06) challenging in a parenting experience (00:42:08) that's the tablespoon of salt so if your (00:42:10) container of awareness is our metaphor (00:42:13) for this espresso size cup and you dump (00:42:17) the challenge into that Stir It Up (00:42:19) what's it like to drink kind of tastes (00:42:22) awful it's awful it's way too salty you (00:42:24) cannot (00:42:25) metabolize the salty water that's why (00:42:28) you can you can't just drink ocean water (00:42:30) your body can't handle salt water so now (00:42:34) you say okay what if I could somehow (00:42:37) cultivate awareness to be like the size (00:42:40) of a 100 gallon tank a container that (00:42:44) big okay let's say you could do that and (00:42:47) that's what the wheel of awareness (00:42:48) allows you to do but we'll get to that (00:42:49) in a moment so if you could now you have (00:42:51) 100 gallons of water life brings you a (00:42:54) challenge again it's the size of a (00:42:55) tablespoon of salt that made the (00:42:58) espresso cup container too salty drink (00:43:01) now imagine a 100 gallons of water you (00:43:03) take a tablespoon of salt Stir It Up in (00:43:06) the 100 (00:43:07) gallons what do you think that water is (00:43:09) like to drink it's fine to drink you've (00:43:15) dissolved The (00:43:17) Challenge in a spacious container of (00:43:21) awareness right so now you take that (00:43:23) analogy and you go oh my God how can I (00:43:26) get a big container of awareness (00:43:28) then we say the wheel of awareness will (00:43:30) teach you how to do it it's a practice I (00:43:32) developed in the you know late '90s (00:43:34) paans come around a table where the (00:43:36) center of the table was glass and the (00:43:38) outside was wood rim and then you know (00:43:41) no one wanted to call it the table of (00:43:42) awareness so they said you know hey this (00:43:44) looks like a wheel and so it has like a (00:43:46) thing it looks like a spoke and so we (00:43:48) would metaphorically move the spoke (00:43:50) around the rim and the rim was (00:43:52) everything you could be aware of like (00:43:54) hearing and seeing and smelling and (00:43:57) tasting touching on the first segment (00:43:59) you then the movees the spoke over again (00:44:01) to the second segment which is the (00:44:03) sensations of the body like your gut (00:44:05) feelings or your heartfelt sense then (00:44:08) you move the spoke over again to mental (00:44:10) activities like thoughts and memories (00:44:12) and (00:44:12) emotions and then you move the spoke (00:44:14) over to the fourth segment which is your (00:44:16) sense of relational connections and in (00:44:19) an advanced step that you learn in both (00:44:21) becoming aware and aware you learn to (00:44:23) bend the spoke around right into the Hub (00:44:26) itself and that's where we got this (00:44:28) experience of the acronym Cole is used (00:44:31) in a new way this way is Connection open (00:44:33) awareness and love is what people tend (00:44:36) to find there in these tens of thousands (00:44:38) of people that have been surveyed so (00:44:41) when you start learning to distinguish (00:44:43) The Hub from the (00:44:45) rim with doing the regular wheel of (00:44:47) awareness practice you are expanding the (00:44:51) container of Consciousness for most of (00:44:54) us before we do a practice like this the (00:44:56) container is very small small so let me (00:44:58) give you an parenting example of how (00:45:00) this wheel of awareness practice happens (00:45:02) and why it's helpful so I'll be the (00:45:05) parent in this case so Alexandra is my (00:45:08) child she's two teeth but she won't let (00:45:10) me brush her teeth so I said okay will (00:45:12) you brush your teeth no I'm not going to (00:45:13) brush my well I need no I'm not and I (00:45:15) start feeling so ashamed that you know (00:45:18) I'm a child psychiatrist I'm studying (00:45:20) attachment and you know she is not doing (00:45:24) what I say what kind of dad am I so I (00:45:27) start feeling shame now let's say that (00:45:30) that shame feeling Echoes with a shame (00:45:32) feeling that my parents made me feel my (00:45:35) father let's say humiliated Me by (00:45:37) putting me down or whatever and if I (00:45:39) haven't made sense of that then what (00:45:42) happens is yes the shame arises on the (00:45:44) third segment of my rim but I haven't (00:45:46) been doing the wheel practice yet so it (00:45:48) just arises and as I start feeling shame (00:45:50) it takes over I am the shame now and now (00:45:54) I feel so humiliated by her maybe I poke (00:45:57) the toothbrush into her mouth which she (00:45:59) can't stand and it becomes traumatizing (00:46:01) for her just like I was traumatized by (00:46:04) my father yep but I I say oh but I was (00:46:08) just trying to brush her teeth and (00:46:09) that's it yeah but I lost track seeing (00:46:12) her mental state which is you know she (00:46:15) was terrified of having her teeth (00:46:16) brushed or whatever fearful thing and (00:46:18) then I just intruded on her body space (00:46:21) right right so you can see by not having (00:46:23) a container of (00:46:26) awareness that could hold the emergence (00:46:29) from the rim of the shame and say oh (00:46:32) look there's shame oo it feels like my (00:46:35) how my father used to treat me I'm not (00:46:37) going to take this toothbrush and do (00:46:39) what my impulse is to do so it's a space (00:46:42) between impulse in action that everyone (00:46:45) attributes to Victor Frankle but (00:46:47) actually it turns out he never said it (00:46:49) and not only he didn't say it but his (00:46:51) grandson affirmed that he didn't say it (00:46:54) but it's wonderful I love Victor (00:46:55) frankl's work and man search for me but (00:46:58) I quoted him right he said the space (00:47:00) between impulse and action is where (00:47:01) growth happens possibility mhm the copy (00:47:04) editor said show me where he said it he (00:47:06) never said it I called up his grandson (00:47:08) he said yeah I'm sorry he never said it (00:47:10) so some human being said it we don't (00:47:12) know who we love it we're so glad they (00:47:14) said it yeah it's a great phrase so (00:47:16) let's say human beings said it between (00:47:19) impulse and action there's a space in (00:47:21) that space is basically the container of (00:47:23) awareness is what we're saying and then (00:47:27) you can say wow I was doing the wheel of (00:47:30) awareness practice my daughter Alexander (00:47:32) wasn't letting me brush her teeth I had (00:47:33) the impulse to make sure she brushes her (00:47:35) teeth but I realize the key thing is our (00:47:38) relationship there's plenty of time for (00:47:40) her to figure out another way to have (00:47:41) her teeth clean it's about honoring the (00:47:43) relationship yes creating structure for (00:47:45) the things that are absolutely needed to (00:47:47) happen but if she's in a phase of you (00:47:49) know she doesn't want someone to brush (00:47:50) her teeth okay you go with that and (00:47:52) there's there's obviously lots of (00:47:54) challenges to parenting when do you (00:47:56) decide that the struct structure you (00:47:57) need to create needs you to continue (00:48:00) trying another way never shoving (00:48:03) something in someone's mouth but finding (00:48:04) a way to entice her to brush her teeth (00:48:06) game a song yeah a song you make a game (00:48:09) out of it absolutely you make it playful (00:48:11) so but the key here in this idea of this (00:48:14) container is if I've been doing the (00:48:16) wheel of awareness practice I have the (00:48:19) container so large that I can actually (00:48:22) be able to make that pause between (00:48:24) impulse and action that example really (00:48:27) brings it all together thank you I'm so (00:48:30) grateful for that listener question I (00:48:31) think it really is a beautiful question (00:48:33) and like the fact that she's asking the (00:48:35) question is just so hopeful and I am (00:48:40) aware of our time speaking of awareness (00:48:43) I mean this is such a treat I am so (00:48:46) grateful for your time and your wisdom (00:48:49) and your Brilliance and I can't wait for (00:48:51) our listeners to just get to dive in to (00:48:53) this entire conversation so if there if (00:48:55) people are new to your work where would (00:48:57) you like them to go I know that the (00:48:59) power of showing up and the third (00:49:02) edition of the developing mind are two (00:49:03) of your newest books but what else do (00:49:06) you want people to know about what's (00:49:08) going on for you right now please feel (00:49:09) free to come to our website it's either (00:49:12) Dr Dan seagull domcom is one site but (00:49:15) it's a link to the mindsight Institute (00:49:17) where they are parenting opportunities (00:49:19) for learning more and more I would say (00:49:22) that in terms of books you know and (00:49:24) these all have audio versions as well as (00:49:26) some videos you know come to our website (00:49:28) find out you know parenting From the (00:49:29) Inside Out is often a great place to (00:49:32) start uh any of the other four parenting (00:49:35) books I've written with Tina Payne (00:49:36) Bryson are also good followup I might go (00:49:39) do you know the power of showing up (00:49:41) after parenting from the inside out and (00:49:42) then whole (00:49:43) brainchild if you have a adolescent you (00:49:46) know the brainstorm would be a way to go (00:49:48) and if you want to do work on yourself (00:49:50) you know the book mindsight is actually (00:49:52) reported as being very useful as well as (00:49:54) the book aware and its companion work (00:49:57) but becoming aware and you can come to (00:49:59) our website for free and just do the (00:50:01) wheel of awareness practice so there's a (00:50:04) audio guide that you'll have access to (00:50:07) there so there's lots of ways and you (00:50:09) know if you like doing things together (00:50:11) with people you can literally get a (00:50:13) group of people together maybe do a book (00:50:15) club read together things are often (00:50:18) better together and I hope this (00:50:21) conversation with Alexandra and with me (00:50:24) you know is inspiring you to really (00:50:27) relationships are really how we you know (00:50:45) [Music] (00:50:57) I loved talking through this poignant (00:50:59) listener question together and I hope (00:51:01) our discussion instilled confidence in (00:51:03) this listener who is curious about (00:51:05) becoming a parent you can find links to (00:51:09) Dr Dan's work including his bestselling (00:51:11) books in the show notes take care and I (00:51:14) will see you next time on reimagining (00:51:19) love do you have a relationship question (00:51:21) that you want answered on the show visit (00:51:23) reimagining love.com to send in a (00:51:26) written or audio question questions can (00:51:28) be about intimate Partnerships family (00:51:30) relationships friendships you name it if (00:51:34) you're looking for more love and (00:51:35) relationship content you can find me on (00:51:37) Instagram at dr. alexandra. Solomon or (00:51:42) visit my website Dr alexandr solomon.com (00:51:44) where you'll find my blog as well as the (00:51:47) intimate relationships 101 ecourse based (00:51:50) off of the popular class I teach at (00:51:52) Northwestern University thank you for (00:51:54) listening and see you next week here on (00:51:57) reimagining (00:52:06) love