The Biggest Regret Women Have (& How to Avoid It) w/Abbie Halberstadt | E263 Lila Rose Show (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) There is more of a fear I see today (00:00:02) about motherhood than I have ever (00:00:04) noticed in my life. What's the question (00:00:05) that everybody asked? How do you know (00:00:06) when you're done? That [music] is a (00:00:08) question that has been asked for about a (00:00:10) hundred years in the whole history of (00:00:12) humankind's existence. I can remember (00:00:14) when I first started on [music] the (00:00:15) internet being borderline terrified to (00:00:17) tell the truth about birth control (00:00:18) because of the backlash. And now [music] (00:00:20) we can just say it and people are like, (00:00:21) "Oh yeah, even secular sources." I think (00:00:23) if we truly truly believe what the Bible (00:00:26) tells us about [music] how much God (00:00:27) cares about the details of our lives (00:00:29) that we would recognize that (00:00:30) surrendering to him is less scary than (00:00:32) being in control ourselves. (00:00:39) Recently, a study came out showing that (00:00:40) Gen Z women who voted for Kla Harris (00:00:44) ranked having children as the second (00:00:46) least important thing in their personal (00:00:49) definition of success. How did we get to (00:00:51) this place in society where motherhood (00:00:53) is seen as so unattainable or (00:00:55) unattractive and what do we do about it? (00:00:58) Welcome back to the L Rose Show (00:01:00) everybody. Today I'm sitting down with (00:01:01) Abby Halberstat, a totally delightful (00:01:04) mom of 10 and the author of multiple (00:01:06) books including her latest release, You (00:01:08) Bet Your Stretch Marks. We discuss (00:01:10) fertility, contraception, large (00:01:13) families, parentification, and more. (00:01:15) This topic is near and dear to my heart, (00:01:17) as you know, because I believe how women (00:01:19) view the role of motherhood in a society (00:01:22) can make or break a culture. The goal of (00:01:24) this show is to cut through the cultural (00:01:26) noise in our society today so that we (00:01:28) can flourish together in this life and (00:01:31) the next. A huge thank you to everybody (00:01:32) who has been subscribing to the show. (00:01:34) We're continuing to grow. Thanks to all (00:01:36) of you. I couldn't love creating this (00:01:38) content more than I do. And I appreciate (00:01:40) everybody who subscribes to the show. (00:01:42) keep on hitting that subscribe button as (00:01:44) well as making sure you're subscribed on (00:01:46) podcast app over there. You can also (00:01:48) leave us a review and five stars. I read (00:01:50) every single one of those podcast app (00:01:52) reviews and when you leave that review (00:01:54) and leave five stars, it helps the show (00:01:55) reach more people. Also, we are growing (00:01:57) our community of patrons. If you want to (00:02:00) help support the mission of the show, (00:02:01) you can go to patreon.com/laose. (00:02:04) There you're going to find behind (00:02:05) the-scenes access as well as the (00:02:07) opportunity to ask questions of future (00:02:08) guests and other free content including (00:02:11) those ad free episodes. I hope you enjoy (00:02:13) this episode. Abby Halverstat, welcome (00:02:15) to the podcast. Thanks for having me on. (00:02:17) >> I'm so glad you're here. I've been (00:02:18) looking forward to this. (00:02:19) >> Glad to be here. (00:02:20) >> And whenever I see mom of 10 online, (00:02:22) which is very rare, I think that's a (00:02:24) hero right there. (00:02:25) >> Oh gosh. And every time someone tells me (00:02:27) that, you know, I just feel this urge to (00:02:29) push back and be like, "No, I'm just a (00:02:32) regular human." And I mean, I understand (00:02:34) where that's coming from and I have my (00:02:36) heroes and some of them have a lot of (00:02:37) kids, too. But, um, I'm just a person (00:02:41) that loves the Lord. (00:02:42) >> What I love about your content, your (00:02:44) book, you have this book out, but you (00:02:45) bet your stretch marks is the (00:02:47) intentionality of everything you and (00:02:48) your husband have built with your (00:02:50) family. (00:02:50) >> From how you educate the kids to how you (00:02:52) discipline to how you put faith at the (00:02:54) center of your household to your public (00:02:56) ministry to how that incorporates with (00:02:58) your other responsibilities, primary (00:02:59) responsibilities in the household, all (00:03:01) of it is intentionality. and I just am (00:03:03) very excited for the conversation and (00:03:04) all the ways that you're helping me and (00:03:06) other moms. (00:03:07) >> Oh, thank you so much. I say and I think (00:03:09) it's you bet your stretch mark. (00:03:10) Sometimes when you write books close (00:03:11) together, the words start to run (00:03:13) together, but intentionality always (00:03:15) trumps passivity and we have an epidemic (00:03:18) of passivity in our culture which (00:03:20) basically says that kind of I'm going to (00:03:23) go with the flow and see what happens. (00:03:24) And that's not what scripture calls us (00:03:26) to. And scripture is my guide for (00:03:28) everything. Scripture and God's Holy (00:03:29) Spirit in me. Without that, anything I (00:03:31) say is pretty much useless. (00:03:33) >> Yeah. And the problem with the go with (00:03:35) the flow is that the flow is someone's (00:03:37) flow. (00:03:38) >> Yes. (00:03:38) >> There's no just sort of like, oh, we're (00:03:40) just in our, you know, most basic state (00:03:42) of nature and not touched by any (00:03:43) influence. The flow is someone's flow. (00:03:46) It's is it God's and the Holy Spirit and (00:03:48) the tradition of our faith, or is it the (00:03:49) flow of the culture that is sometimes (00:03:51) opposed to the truth? (00:03:53) >> 100%. There's no such thing as a neutral (00:03:55) education. It just doesn't exist. (00:03:58) >> Okay. So, I want to go a quick um get to (00:04:01) know you for people who are meeting you (00:04:03) for the first time here. (00:04:04) >> Tell us a little bit about your (00:04:06) background, your why you are open to (00:04:08) having 10 kids in a culture that says (00:04:10) stop at two or three typically and then (00:04:13) what got you started with your books, (00:04:15) your ministry, your social media and (00:04:18) sharing about your family life and how (00:04:19) you're living your family family life. (00:04:21) >> Yeah. Okay. So, gosh, that's a lot. Um (00:04:24) so, rewind way back even before I was (00:04:26) born. So, my parents came from really (00:04:29) ungodly, abusive backgrounds in a lot of (00:04:31) ways, not completely. My maternal (00:04:33) grandmother was a Christian and she was (00:04:35) a kind mom, but my parents growing up in (00:04:38) that got saved out of that, praise God, (00:04:40) in their late teens, early 20s. And they (00:04:43) wanted something different for their (00:04:45) family. And they understood that they (00:04:47) didn't have that in themselves. They (00:04:49) were going to find that in God's word. (00:04:51) And they were going to find that in (00:04:52) pursuing Christ. And so I was raised (00:04:55) very counterculturally by parents who (00:04:56) wanted to be the hinge on which the door (00:04:58) of change turned for the next (00:05:00) generation. And they weren't just (00:05:01) thinking about their own children. Um (00:05:03) they were thinking about children to (00:05:05) come after that. And that continues to (00:05:07) be a theme. My mom is really helpful in (00:05:09) our home. She's part of the reason that (00:05:10) I can do what I do now. And a huge part (00:05:13) of the reason I would say. And so I grew (00:05:16) up being read the Bible most days. I (00:05:19) think I have the impression I was read (00:05:20) the Bible every day, but that's probably (00:05:22) not true with knowing how life is as a (00:05:25) parent now. (00:05:25) >> How many siblings, by the way, did you (00:05:26) >> I just have one brother. So, people (00:05:28) assume that I come from a large family (00:05:29) because I think we're more likely to (00:05:32) gravitate towards something if we're (00:05:33) familiar with it, right? Yes. (00:05:35) >> But my parents would have happily had (00:05:37) more. They did not have an objection to (00:05:40) having more children. They were not able (00:05:41) to have more. And so, they never did any (00:05:43) form of birth control, never did any (00:05:45) form of preventing. And my mom (00:05:47) experienced miscarriage after (00:05:49) miscarriage. And the Lord gave her two (00:05:50) children, four years apart, a boy and a (00:05:53) girl. And so, of course, she got (00:05:54) comments from people like, "Well, look (00:05:56) at you, the perfect American family, you (00:05:58) know, and that is (00:05:59) >> you got your boy. You got your boy. You (00:06:02) must be done." And she's like, "I'd have (00:06:03) more if I could, (00:06:04) >> right?" And so, and that's hurtful. And (00:06:06) that that's hurtful from making (00:06:08) assumptions about people's fertility on (00:06:10) any end can be really hurtful. Um, it's (00:06:13) hurtful to the mom that has one and (00:06:14) people assume that she didn't want more (00:06:16) like my mom. It's hurtful to people that (00:06:19) think you're a freak because you have (00:06:20) 10. And so when you got your hands full, (00:06:25) I say only and the amount of comments (00:06:27) are, "Are you done?" (00:06:28) >> Yeah. (00:06:28) >> And it's interesting. It's usually from (00:06:30) older folks. I've noticed like like a a (00:06:32) different an older not to say older (00:06:34) folks are somehow uniquely against (00:06:36) having more kids. Not at all. But I (00:06:38) think there's they look back maybe and (00:06:39) think about their years of fertility. (00:06:41) But are you done? You know, you have (00:06:43) your boy, you have your girl, and we (00:06:44) have two boys and a girl. So would you (00:06:46) want to, you know, you you must be (00:06:48) you're so you're so busy. I'm like, (00:06:50) actually, my mom had eight, and (00:06:52) >> I this is a piece of cake compared to (00:06:54) what she, you know, did. (00:06:56) >> Yeah. So I think traditionally we would (00:06:59) have had larger families. I don't think (00:07:00) that that's historically true. Um, it (00:07:03) doesn't mean that because something is (00:07:06) historically true that it's easy, of (00:07:08) course. But my mom did a really great (00:07:11) job of modeling for me a focus on the (00:07:13) sovereignty of God. Like when we (00:07:15) memorized Proverbs 35 and 6, trust the (00:07:17) Lord with all your heart. Lean not on (00:07:19) your own understanding. In all your ways (00:07:21) acknowledge him and [clears throat] he (00:07:22) will make your paths straight. (00:07:24) >> We grew up memorizing that, too. not (00:07:26) easy, not um successful and prosperous, (00:07:31) but straight. And we are told as (00:07:34) Christians to stick to the straight and (00:07:36) narrow, the hard path, the one that (00:07:38) there's probably a steep valley on (00:07:40) either side of, not the wide and easy (00:07:41) path that leads to destruction. And it's (00:07:44) not that someone that has 10 kids is (00:07:45) automatically on the straight path by (00:07:47) any stretch. I'm not I'm not conflating (00:07:49) the two, but the trust in God, that's (00:07:51) where the straightness comes in. And so (00:07:54) the other thing that she did that set me (00:07:56) up for having 10 kids, even though I (00:07:58) could have never imagined this, I was a (00:08:00) tomboy. I loved sports. I didn't plan (00:08:04) out my future with husband and children. (00:08:07) I was not yearning for double handfuls (00:08:09) of children. I didn't really think about (00:08:10) it either way. I didn't have a lot of (00:08:12) names picked out. I mean, I I I thought (00:08:13) about being a mom. I assumed I would be, (00:08:15) but it wasn't some sort of I think the (00:08:17) other thing people assume other than you (00:08:19) must have a lot of siblings is you must (00:08:21) have like been gunning for this. This is (00:08:23) a life goal. (00:08:24) >> You tried really hard for those 10. (00:08:25) >> I tried really hard for these 10. Which (00:08:27) the thing about the sovereignty of God, (00:08:29) as I've already said, is it can go (00:08:30) either direction. Some people assume (00:08:32) they're going to have a lot of children (00:08:34) because they don't know do anything to (00:08:35) prevent and they don't. And we have to (00:08:37) trust in the sovereignty of God for (00:08:38) that, too. Like when we clench our hands (00:08:41) and say, "It has to be my way." So often (00:08:43) the Lord says, "No, I've got a path for (00:08:45) you." or they grow up dreaming of it and (00:08:47) they don't meet their spouse until their (00:08:49) 30s or later and they're not able to (00:08:52) have the family they had once dreamed (00:08:54) of. (00:08:54) >> Yes, DMs all the time from from women (00:08:56) that are in that position that are like, (00:08:58) I really wanted more than two or three (00:08:59) and my body's just not cooperating cuz I (00:09:01) got married late. So, there is no one (00:09:03) straight and narrow for every person (00:09:06) except for following the Lord. And my (00:09:08) mom just did such a good job of showing (00:09:10) that in her surrender to the Lord's will (00:09:12) for her life in that and every other (00:09:13) area. And she also told me about birth (00:09:16) control and she told me it's not good (00:09:18) for your body. You don't want to tinker (00:09:20) with your hormones. You don't want to (00:09:21) tinker with a natural process that's a (00:09:23) detoxifying process that the Lord has (00:09:25) made to prepare your body for fertility. (00:09:27) Like this is good for you. This is good (00:09:29) design. It's not just something to, you (00:09:31) know, periods are the worst, you know. (00:09:34) And then also she taught me about the (00:09:37) fact that hormonal birth control has an (00:09:38) abortifation aspect to it that it (00:09:41) actually and people say, "Oh, you just (00:09:42) made that up." No, you can look at the (00:09:45) insert on hormonal birth control and it (00:09:47) will tell you that one of the components (00:09:49) of how it acts is to make the lining of (00:09:51) the uterus thinner and less friendly to (00:09:54) implantation of a fertilized embryo, (00:09:56) which we know as Christians that life (00:09:59) begins at conception. And so, you have a (00:10:01) conceived human being who is being (00:10:03) discarded by a hostile womb. And my mom (00:10:05) told me that when I was probably 13 (00:10:07) years old. And so, my brain said, (00:10:08) "What?" (00:10:09) >> How did she learn that, by the way? Um, (00:10:11) I would have to ask her, but she was a (00:10:14) very she's a fiercely intelligent woman. (00:10:17) >> I'm so impressed because I think today (00:10:19) we have that knowledge about the birth (00:10:21) control pill, but I feel like our (00:10:22) mother's generation that was very much (00:10:24) shielded from them unless somehow they (00:10:26) were doing the research very (00:10:27) intentionally themselves. It wasn't as (00:10:29) if they were advoc advocacy groups (00:10:31) educating on it in mass, (00:10:33) >> right? And I can remember when I first (00:10:35) started on the internet 15 years ago (00:10:37) being borderline terrified to tell the (00:10:40) truth about birth control because of the (00:10:41) backlash being so strong. And now we can (00:10:44) just say it and people are like oh yeah (00:10:45) I mean even secular sources are like (00:10:48) don't do this. I think I saw some (00:10:49) account rumor Willis like De Mo's (00:10:51) daughter was like do not take hormonal (00:10:53) birth control because it will wreck you. (00:10:55) And I was like well I'm I mean I'm glad (00:10:58) that we have this just out in the open. (00:11:00) >> Well we're going to have Dr. Sarah Hill (00:11:02) on the show, I think next week or the (00:11:03) week after, and she wrote, you know, (00:11:05) she's coming at it as from a secular (00:11:06) perspective, the science behind the harm (00:11:08) of birth control. (00:11:10) >> Right. So, my my mom was a pioneer in (00:11:12) many ways. She was homeschooling my (00:11:14) brother before it was technically legal (00:11:15) in the state of Texas and lobbying for (00:11:16) it to be legal and she was a crunchy (00:11:19) granola mama. Like, our homeschool co-op (00:11:21) back in the day was for us to run around (00:11:23) at the park while the moms waited for (00:11:25) like the health food truck to pull up. (00:11:26) So, and she read extensively. So I had a (00:11:29) very countercultural background and but (00:11:32) it seemed normal to me because that's (00:11:33) what I grew up with. So uh you asked how (00:11:36) I ended up you know here and where this (00:11:38) all came from. I think that foundation (00:11:40) in God's word and that foundation in the (00:11:42) the basis being the sovereignty of God (00:11:45) and then you go from there to look at (00:11:46) the mechanisms and say is this good (00:11:48) right and true? When you see that it's (00:11:49) not you say well then I'm not going to (00:11:51) do that. That's not good for my body and (00:11:53) it's not good for my soul and it's not (00:11:54) good for other people's bodies and (00:11:55) souls. And so I was actually engaged to (00:11:58) a guy when I was 19. And I remember (00:12:01) having a pre-marital um counseling (00:12:04) conversation with him and our pastor. (00:12:06) And neither of them had any trouble at (00:12:08) all with birth control. And here I'm (00:12:09) trying to explain this. And because most (00:12:10) people didn't know, they looked at me (00:12:11) like I had three heads. They were really (00:12:13) nice Christian guys. They were great (00:12:14) guys. But this was not something they (00:12:16) were educated on. They didn't have my (00:12:18) mom growing up. And they were just kind (00:12:20) of looking at me like, "What are you (00:12:21) talking about? You sound hysterical." (00:12:23) >> Well, and the just a quick uh (00:12:25) interjection. And what I've observed is (00:12:26) the common I think maybe this is more a (00:12:29) decade ago than it is or two decades ago (00:12:31) than it is today because of all the (00:12:32) education that's happened around this. (00:12:34) But I think there's been a common thing (00:12:35) in certain even Christian circles and (00:12:37) very you know concerned Christian (00:12:39) circles trying to follow God to say well (00:12:41) when you're newly and you get married of (00:12:42) course you're in the birth control pill (00:12:43) for at least a few years establish the (00:12:45) marriage and then you have the children (00:12:46) and birth control is the obvious thing (00:12:48) to start you out (00:12:49) >> for sure. So, um, I didn't end up (00:12:51) marrying that guy. And on the second (00:12:53) date with my husband that I did marry, (00:12:55) who's the only other guy I dated, I (00:12:57) literally landed the bomb. Like, hey, I (00:13:01) know we're just getting to know each (00:13:02) other. I already really like you. I (00:13:04) don't like this is a non-negotiable for (00:13:06) me. I'm not going to put this in my (00:13:07) body. And, you know, that means we I (00:13:10) could have a lot of kids. I have no (00:13:12) idea. I remember saying something like, (00:13:13) I could have six kids. Like, isn't that (00:13:15) a crazy thought? And he just looked at (00:13:17) me totally unfazed and was like, "Cool. (00:13:19) Is that what you wanted to tell me?" You (00:13:21) know, like was not at all bothered by (00:13:23) it. He said later he was like, "I was (00:13:25) thinking eight." So (00:13:26) >> that's so sweet. (00:13:27) >> Which we have had eight births, but we (00:13:29) have two sets of twins. (00:13:30) >> Perfect. (00:13:31) >> So, yep. He he apparently called that (00:13:33) one. Um, so I think just openness to (00:13:37) life, having a view of God's word being (00:13:39) the authority for our lives, having (00:13:41) parents who were by no means perfect, (00:13:43) but were invested and intentional in how (00:13:45) they taught us, how they discipled us, (00:13:46) how they schooled us, even though they (00:13:48) were made fun of by culture, even though (00:13:50) we didn't have any money. Our our income (00:13:52) didn't make any sense for my mom to stay (00:13:54) home and homeschool us. Everything was (00:13:56) secondhand. One car, little bitty house, (00:13:58) like nothing was the American dream. And (00:14:00) yet I remember being loved and being (00:14:04) invested in and that made me want to (00:14:06) pass that along to my own children. Um, (00:14:09) now again, could I have ever imagined (00:14:10) that that would mean that God would give (00:14:12) me 10 kids in 14 years? And also, I will (00:14:14) say this, sometimes the Lord likes to (00:14:16) pick at those things that we think we're (00:14:18) surrendered in and we really aren't (00:14:20) because the one prayer I prayed about my (00:14:22) fertility was, "Lord, give me the kids (00:14:25) you have for me, but one at a time." (00:14:27) Literally, no multiples, please. Those (00:14:29) sound terrible. They sounded hard. It (00:14:31) sounded overwhelming. This is before I (00:14:33) even had kids. And I didn't even (00:14:35) understand the realities of, you know, (00:14:37) around the clock nursing, not getting (00:14:39) any sleep. But I thought, okay, maybe (00:14:41) you could do that with one kid, but two, (00:14:42) that sounds impossible. That sounds (00:14:44) miserable. And the Lord was like, okay, (00:14:47) >> here we go. (00:14:47) >> Well, how surrendered are you? Because (00:14:49) here we go. Exactly. Not only that, but (00:14:51) he took it one step further. So, we have (00:14:53) a set of identical twin girls, which is (00:14:56) a gift from the Lord. (00:14:57) >> So cute. Because identical is not (00:14:59) hereditary. (00:15:00) >> Make me cry just talking [laughter] (00:15:01) about imagining these children. That's (00:15:02) so beautiful. (00:15:03) >> And they're my favorite people. Like (00:15:04) like they're just I always say they're (00:15:06) my favorite humans. My husband's my (00:15:07) favorite. (00:15:07) >> She has identical girls. She just had (00:15:09) them. So I'm thinking of them, too. But (00:15:11) >> they're going to have such a cool bond. (00:15:12) Um so identical twin girls first. They (00:15:15) are 13 years old. And so identical is (00:15:18) 100% a gift from the Lord. Like such a (00:15:20) special blessing and a unique thing (00:15:22) because it's not genetic. One person (00:15:25) isn't supposed to be more predisposed. (00:15:26) It is rarer than fraternal. Eight years (00:15:29) later, on the exact same day, we had a (00:15:30) set of identical twin boys. (00:15:33) >> Wow. (00:15:33) >> So, September 24th is the quad birthday (00:15:35) in our house. (00:15:36) >> Yeah. (00:15:37) >> Four kids, both identical boys. Two (00:15:40) boys, two girls. Yep. (00:15:41) >> That's really special. (00:15:42) >> It is very cool. So, it was like the (00:15:44) Lord was like, it's the whole my ways (00:15:47) are not your ways (00:15:48) >> and your wisdom is foolishness to God. (00:15:51) Um, I'm not going to remember the exact (00:15:52) reference, but there's this, I think (00:15:53) it's Colossians, but who has known the (00:15:56) mind of the Lord and who has been his (00:15:57) counselor? Who has ever given to God (00:15:59) that God should repay him? For from him (00:16:01) and to him and through him are all (00:16:02) things to him be the glory forever and (00:16:04) ever. Amen. That is just a life force of (00:16:06) mine that it's like when you think (00:16:07) things are not going how you planned and (00:16:09) you would have done so much better, the (00:16:11) Lord just pushes back and says, "No, (00:16:13) sorry. I'm doing the right thing." (00:16:17) >> That's so beautiful. And your husband (00:16:19) around this whole journey, he's just (00:16:21) been I mean, he had eight in mind, so (00:16:22) he's just go for it. (00:16:23) >> Yeah. And he has two brothers, so he (00:16:25) doesn't come from a big family either. (00:16:26) Neither one of us had a lot of (00:16:27) experience with young children. I had (00:16:29) changed some diapers in the nursery. (00:16:30) That was it. Baby sat a little bit, but (00:16:32) not even babies. Like babysat like (00:16:34) eight-year-olds and didn't have a ton of (00:16:36) friends that had younger siblings. So (00:16:40) that's the other assumption that I get (00:16:41) all the time. You must be naturally (00:16:42) super patient. I'm not. The Lord has (00:16:45) grown my patience. Thank goodness he is (00:16:46) so faithful not to leave us where he (00:16:48) finds us. (00:16:48) >> Abby, (00:16:49) >> no, I'm not. (00:16:50) >> You're just (00:16:50) >> I'm productive. (00:16:52) >> Okay. [laughter] (00:16:53) >> I'm productive and and um give me a (00:16:56) deadline and I'll meet it. But I'm not (00:16:58) like a set a goal and run after it type (00:17:01) of thing. Um I don't know what type I (00:17:03) am. Type B plus maybe. (00:17:05) >> Type B+. There you go. You have to be (00:17:07) plus if you're going to step up and try (00:17:08) to be intentional. So (00:17:10) >> yeah. [laughter] (00:17:11) >> Yeah. So a lot of Christian families I (00:17:14) think today in the culture I I want to (00:17:16) get to so much of what you talk about in (00:17:19) your work which is the impact of the (00:17:20) culture on Christians view of family (00:17:22) motherhood and fertility. (00:17:24) >> And this is something I'm really (00:17:26) passionate about because I think the (00:17:28) Christian Christians being influenced by (00:17:30) the culture on fertility is directly (00:17:33) connected to abortion is connected to (00:17:35) the breakdown of marriage. It's all part (00:17:37) of the same problem. And sometimes we as (00:17:40) Christians think that well if we just do (00:17:41) it within sort of these confines because (00:17:44) we are going to you know we want to be (00:17:46) sincere and follow God but we're going (00:17:48) to still do this other thing because (00:17:49) everyone else is doing it (00:17:51) >> without really examining it. We may make (00:17:53) excuses for the thing then we're (00:17:55) actually just we are not fulfilling our (00:17:57) role as Christians in the culture. (00:17:59) >> We are not being set apart and (00:18:00) sanctified. (00:18:01) >> We're not being set apart and (00:18:02) sanctified. And the sovereignty of God (00:18:03) which you've mentioned multiple times is (00:18:05) obviously core to how we should operate (00:18:07) as Christians. That is and he's (00:18:09) sovereign over our marriage, our (00:18:10) fertility, our families. (00:18:12) >> I'm thinking about vestctomies right now (00:18:13) because (00:18:15) >> there's birth control and a lot of (00:18:16) Christians are like yeah it does it can (00:18:18) be an abortive patient and you know it's (00:18:20) not healthy for the woman. So yeah, (00:18:21) we'll skip the birth control but barrier (00:18:23) method and vasectomies are the way to go (00:18:26) and if I'm generous and I have maybe (00:18:28) three, four, five kids and again some (00:18:30) people can't have any kids, right? So (00:18:32) this idea of, (00:18:33) >> oh, I'm just having more kids than I can (00:18:35) handle and I'll just get to a certain (00:18:36) number and then cut it off, right? Is (00:18:38) also a very kind of privileged idea cuz (00:18:40) children are children are such a (00:18:41) blessing and some people would literally (00:18:42) give every like an arm and a leg to be (00:18:45) the to have the privilege of parent of (00:18:46) parenthood. (00:18:47) >> But anyway, so I see in in our Christian (00:18:50) culture today and this is in the (00:18:51) Catholic church too and it's very clear (00:18:53) against the Catholic teachings. This is (00:18:54) among evangelicals who are very, you (00:18:55) know, more traditional and more (00:18:57) conservative. It's really everywhere (00:18:58) which is okay, I I'm open to life. I (00:19:00) have four to five kids and that's (00:19:02) generous in today's culture. Now we're (00:19:04) going to get the snip (00:19:06) >> because there's nobody getting hurt here (00:19:08) except my husband has some (00:19:08) unpleasantries. You know, it's like not (00:19:10) great, you know, not super fun to go and (00:19:12) get the snip, but now we can still love (00:19:14) each other and we're not dealing with (00:19:15) any issues and there's no birth control (00:19:17) pills involved, (00:19:18) >> right? So, I think the the easiest place (00:19:22) to start there is that there needs to be (00:19:25) some looking into whether your husband (00:19:27) actually is hurt or not. when you (00:19:29) actually cauterize the tubes down which (00:19:32) the sperm are coming. And if someone's (00:19:35) listening to this like she's not even (00:19:36) saying this right, my apologies. I'm (00:19:38) doing the best I can with the knowledge (00:19:39) that I have about it. You (00:19:40) >> But you do cut them. (00:19:42) >> Yes, you do. Um (00:19:44) >> no more sperm is the goal, right? No (00:19:45) more fertility, (00:19:46) >> right? Exactly. And it it does have to (00:19:49) go somewhere. You you've literally like (00:19:51) stopped up a faucet essentially. And (00:19:54) there are some pretty widely reported (00:19:56) side effects to that process for men (00:19:59) with extreme pain with um adverse (00:20:03) [clears throat] reactions. So it's very (00:20:05) few things that we do to permanently (00:20:07) alter the function of our bodies do not (00:20:09) have some sort of consequence or side (00:20:13) effect. And uh I have found that with (00:20:16) birth control and other things, many of (00:20:18) those consequences are swept under the (00:20:20) rug because they are not monetarily (00:20:23) um beneficial to the medical community. (00:20:25) I mean, a vasectomy is a relatively (00:20:29) cheap surgery, but it's lots of people (00:20:32) are having it. It's elective. You can (00:20:34) make a lot of money doing this. So, (00:20:36) telling someone this is a simple (00:20:37) in-n-out procedure, you're not going to (00:20:39) have any side effects. I don't think (00:20:41) that's completely honest. And I think (00:20:42) people should be careful to do some (00:20:44) research on whether that's entirely (00:20:45) true. (00:20:46) >> So that's just starting with the (00:20:48) physical aspect of it. And then I think (00:20:50) we have to rewind. And I always find it (00:20:53) helpful when we're swept up in what the (00:20:55) culture is doing right now to zoom out (00:20:58) and look at what the trend, not the (00:21:01) trend, that's not the right word, what (00:21:03) the truth has been for all of human (00:21:05) history. And this idea that we are the (00:21:08) determiners of our fate when it comes to (00:21:10) fertility. that what's the question that (00:21:13) everybody asks? How do you know when (00:21:14) you're done? That's the question, right? (00:21:16) That is such a modern question. That is (00:21:19) a question that has been asked for about (00:21:21) a hundred years max in the whole history (00:21:24) of humankind's existence. So, we have to (00:21:26) ask ourselves, why is this only now (00:21:29) becoming a question that we're kind of (00:21:30) almost obsessed with? And one (00:21:33) >> control. (00:21:33) >> Control. Now, humans have always wanted (00:21:35) control. I mean, what did Satan want to (00:21:37) be? He wanted to be like God. And he you (00:21:39) know what did he tell Adam and Eve? You (00:21:41) eat this fruit and you will be like God. (00:21:43) You will be the one in control. And that (00:21:45) is an aspect of what we are struggling (00:21:48) with when we are wanting to say I know (00:21:50) some children are a blessing. But are (00:21:53) all the children God has for me a (00:21:55) blessing? Or holding our hands like this (00:21:57) and saying Lord you can have my (00:21:59) marriage, you can have my education. You (00:22:01) can have where I live. you can have my (00:22:04) friendships, but this thing this thing (00:22:06) where I have to raise humans for the (00:22:08) rest of their lives or be involved like (00:22:10) because it is it's stewarding souls. (00:22:12) There's a huge amount of responsibility (00:22:14) and privilege involved in it. That's too (00:22:16) scary. I'm going to keep that one. And (00:22:18) now we have mechanisms with which to do (00:22:20) it easily. And so we can say since this (00:22:23) exists it must be good. So we have to (00:22:26) zoom out and say is this how God (00:22:28) intended our bodies to work? Is this for (00:22:30) the good of humanity? Is this producing (00:22:33) selflessness? Is this producing (00:22:35) Christlikkeness? (00:22:37) And I think much of the time the answer (00:22:39) is no. (00:22:42) Thanksgiving is coming up and of course (00:22:43) our friends at Good Ranchers have the (00:22:45) deal of the year for us. 100% of their (00:22:47) beef, poultry, pork, and seafood is (00:22:49) sourced here in the USA and is humanely (00:22:52) raised with no antibiotics or added (00:22:54) hormones. From now through Thanksgiving, (00:22:56) join Good Ranchers on a special (00:22:58) challenge for you. Every Thursday night, (00:22:59) sit down and share a meal with someone (00:23:01) that you love. 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Whether you're a parent protecting (00:25:09) your kids, a husband searching for (00:25:11) accountability, or a wife searching for (00:25:12) accountability, or somebody who just (00:25:14) wants to make sure that porn doesn't (00:25:15) make it onto your screen, covenant (00:25:17) eyes.com has got you covered. So, you (00:25:19) can go to covenantey.com and get a free (00:25:21) 30-day trial using the code Laya. That's (00:25:24) covenant eyes.com. Use the code Laya for (00:25:26) a free 30-day trial. Start your journey (00:25:29) to freedom today. (00:25:33) There is a I think a narrative too that (00:25:36) says, well, Christians should use (00:25:38) technology towards good ends. So, like (00:25:41) you were saying, just because we can (00:25:43) doesn't mean we should. Yes. But we are (00:25:45) called to have dominion. And again, I'm (00:25:47) playing the devil's advocate here that I (00:25:49) hear. And by the way, the the the verse (00:25:51) about dominion in Genesis is not you (00:25:52) should have dominion over each other and (00:25:54) your kids. It's over dominion over (00:25:56) creation and created order. And together (00:25:59) your job is to be fruitful and multiply. (00:26:02) And it doesn't say be fruitful and (00:26:03) multiply children, but then calculated a (00:26:05) certain way at what you deem as most (00:26:07) convenient or best for your family's (00:26:08) size. That's not in Genesis. It's be (00:26:11) fruitful and multip multiply. And (00:26:13) throughout scripture, there's the talk (00:26:15) of you're blessed if you're given the (00:26:18) gift of children. Like that's they're (00:26:20) always talked about as a blessing. (00:26:22) Always. It's not like, oh, you have four (00:26:24) or five, you know, sorry, the mother (00:26:26) that has four or five, how much she (00:26:28) struggles. And it's like, no, children, (00:26:29) you want you want your quiver to be (00:26:31) full. You want your home to be full. (00:26:32) This is a blessing from the Lord. Um, (00:26:34) but I hear from some Christian circles (00:26:37) and certainly the culture that, well, (00:26:39) we're being responsible, right? Because (00:26:41) if we do have the three or the four (00:26:43) children um and and I'm talking about (00:26:45) the vestctomy here because I do think (00:26:47) yes as as a Christian couple you can say (00:26:50) okay we're going to maybe space children (00:26:51) or maybe there's a serious reason (00:26:53) because of some severe health issue (00:26:55) we're dealing with emotional mental or (00:26:57) physical to delay children. So I'm not (00:26:59) talking about just have as many children (00:27:01) as you possibly can as quickly as (00:27:02) possible. It's not a contest, (00:27:03) >> but I'm talking about intentional acts (00:27:06) to separate the proc and the eucative (00:27:09) and the unive, which would be a (00:27:10) vasectomy because you're constantly (00:27:12) spilling the seed basically but still (00:27:14) having sex. So, you're unifying the (00:27:16) marriage in that way but being not open (00:27:17) to life or a barrier method or birth (00:27:19) control as a hormonal, you know, birth (00:27:21) control that's constantly, you know, (00:27:23) making the mother's womb hostile (00:27:24) ultimately. (00:27:25) >> And again, the rationalization here is (00:27:28) well, I'm being responsible. That's that (00:27:31) is what many Christians believe they're (00:27:33) actually thinking. And then they say, (00:27:34) I've also heard when they get the (00:27:35) basectomy as an example, well, if God (00:27:37) really wanted us to have another baby, (00:27:39) it is, you know, there's a tiny (00:27:40) possibility that the sperm can, you (00:27:43) know, can make it through and this baby (00:27:45) will still somehow by God's, you know, (00:27:47) pure miracle, the baby will happen. (00:27:49) >> Yeah, I've heard all of these arguments (00:27:51) as well, for sure. And I think it's (00:27:53) because it is a very personal topic or (00:27:56) it becomes a very personal topic. (00:27:58) Ultimately, (00:28:00) we can't outindness God. We can't out (00:28:05) steward our lives. We got a smoothie (00:28:08) delivery. So, [laughter] we also had (00:28:10) another interruption which I'm not going (00:28:11) to tell you guys about, but Abby was (00:28:13) mid-sentence saying something brilliant. (00:28:14) We're back on it. [laughter] (00:28:16) I I think that we put ourselves in a (00:28:18) position of feeling as if we can kind of (00:28:22) plan better than God can plan. And what (00:28:26) the Bible actually says is shall the pot (00:28:29) say to the potter shall the clay say to (00:28:32) the potter why did you make me this way? (00:28:34) Which is essentially what we're asking (00:28:36) when we say you know why why am I having (00:28:39) all of these children? Why do I have to (00:28:42) be responsible? Why do I have to keep (00:28:44) going with this? And I will speak from a (00:28:47) very personal note here. I understand (00:28:50) this mindset because 10 kids in 14 years (00:28:52) is a lot. It's a lot on your body. It's (00:28:54) a lot on your emotions. (00:28:56) >> Two sets of twins, too. (00:28:57) >> Two sets of twins. Um, two twin (00:28:59) pregnancies and deliveries. It's a lot. (00:29:01) It's a lot on your marriage. Um, it's a (00:29:03) lot of joy. It's a lot of purpose. It's (00:29:06) a lot of growth. But it's a lot of hard. (00:29:08) Um, I wrote a book called Hard is not (00:29:10) the same thing as bad because they're (00:29:11) not the same thing. But challenges do (00:29:14) stretch you a lot. And so I definitely (00:29:18) had it in my mind that I was going to be (00:29:20) the 45-year-old mom of 15 kids that we (00:29:23) were we have a we have a pattern with (00:29:25) our children. So there are three (00:29:26) singletons and then a set of twins. (00:29:27) Three singletons and then a set of (00:29:29) twins. And my kids have joked. So we (00:29:30) need 15 kids. We need three more (00:29:31) singletons and a set of twins. And I'm (00:29:33) like I don't think at 43 I'm probably (00:29:35) capable of that. But what I have found, (00:29:38) interestingly enough, again, in being (00:29:40) surrendered, is here I am thinking, (00:29:42) "Okay, Lord, wow, this is going to be a (00:29:45) lot of kids when I'm in in my mid-40s. I (00:29:47) have not had a child since age 37." And (00:29:50) that's not because we have done (00:29:52) something permanent. It's not because we (00:29:54) have prevented a bunch or anything. It's (00:29:57) because we've had three miscarriages (00:29:58) since having our second set of twins. (00:30:01) And that too is the sovereignty of God. (00:30:03) So, I think so many people assume they (00:30:06) know how their story is going to go (00:30:07) based on how it's going currently. (00:30:09) >> And something that they're so tempted to (00:30:11) do is to make decisions based on the (00:30:13) current duress that they have for the (00:30:16) future based on what they're currently (00:30:17) dealing with. And I'm always encouraging (00:30:19) people to pray and persevere through (00:30:23) what they're going through now with the (00:30:25) hope that just like it talks about in (00:30:27) Psalm 27:13, I will still see the (00:30:29) goodness of of the Lord in the land of (00:30:30) the living. I'm still alive. I'm still (00:30:32) breathing. The Lord has goodness for me. (00:30:34) It might be more children. It might not (00:30:36) be. But ultimately, we're not God. (00:30:40) That's what it comes down to. (00:30:42) >> That's such a freeing truth. (00:30:44) >> It really is. (00:30:45) >> But you But you have to trust. The thing (00:30:47) is it all comes back to the trust in the (00:30:49) Lord. Because if you don't trust and you (00:30:52) don't surrender like you're talking (00:30:54) about to the sovereignty of God, you (00:30:56) don't surrender your entire life and (00:30:57) every part of it to Jesus, then you're (00:30:59) not going to be able to deal with the (00:31:02) teachings [laughter] of God, right? You (00:31:05) can't you distrust is an essential (00:31:07) component. We cannot do it on our own (00:31:08) strength. (00:31:09) >> Yeah. And it's a it's a daily choice and (00:31:11) a daily surrender. I think people look (00:31:14) at me and say, "Well, you must just have (00:31:16) more faith than I do." Very unlikely. (00:31:19) The Lord is the one that provides it day (00:31:21) by day. We are to take every thought (00:31:23) captive to the lordship of Jesus Christ. (00:31:25) We are to ask for our daily bread. We're (00:31:27) not supposed to be storing up, you know, (00:31:29) talk about the Israelites storing up the (00:31:31) mana that the Lord gave them and it just (00:31:33) rots. We're so worried about tomorrow. (00:31:35) And Jesus tells us, "Don't worry about (00:31:37) tomorrow. Tomorrow has enough troubles (00:31:38) of its own." And then he says, 'Look, I (00:31:41) care about the flowers of the field. I (00:31:43) care about the sparrows. How much more (00:31:45) do I care for you? I think if we truly (00:31:48) truly believed what the Bible tells us (00:31:51) about how much God cares about the (00:31:53) details of our lives that we would (00:31:55) recognize that surrendering to him is (00:31:58) less scary than being in control (00:32:00) ourselves. (00:32:01) >> It's so beautiful. I think about my mom (00:32:04) and she said they had eight kids, my (00:32:07) parents, and this was very unusual. also (00:32:09) homeschooled. I know I was telling you (00:32:10) about this earlier. Also unusual at the (00:32:12) time. So I'm very blessed by that (00:32:15) upbringing and their sacrifices and (00:32:16) their trust in the Lord. But I remember (00:32:18) her saying that she wish she had had two (00:32:21) more. (00:32:22) >> And it's not that they did anything (00:32:23) artificial to stop. I think it was more (00:32:25) they were just really busy. And so they (00:32:27) weren't trying (00:32:28) >> in in that sense. Um so there was still (00:32:30) a surrendered fertility, but they were (00:32:32) just it wasn't like let's try to have (00:32:35) more, right? It was more just we'll see (00:32:36) what happens. And she says that and and (00:32:39) I look at my siblings and I say I can't (00:32:42) imagine life without one of them. (00:32:43) >> Right? (00:32:44) >> I'm sure you can't imagine life without (00:32:46) one of your (00:32:47) >> which one of my children would I give up (00:32:48) so that I could you know have the (00:32:51) socially accepted number (00:32:53) >> or play more sports as a family or (00:32:55) whatever the thing is right there's (00:32:56) always something (00:32:57) >> there is a trade-off for sure. I will (00:32:59) not deny that for a moment that you're (00:33:01) going to have to recognize that this (00:33:03) does determine your life path to some (00:33:05) extent. I don't think it determines it (00:33:07) in a negative direction. I think you (00:33:09) just have to be willing just like you (00:33:11) did with your fertility to be (00:33:12) open-handed and say, "Lord, where where (00:33:14) does this lead us?" So, a personal (00:33:17) example, we have built two houses (00:33:19) together. And by we, I mean mostly my (00:33:21) husband and his dad, but I source the (00:33:23) things I (00:33:24) >> physical houses. (00:33:25) >> Physical houses where my husband and his (00:33:26) father built everything in them. (00:33:28) >> The bathrooms, too. (00:33:29) >> Yes. Electrical, plumbing. (00:33:31) >> That's incredible. (00:33:32) >> Flooring, roof, framing, trim. With our (00:33:35) first house, we did everything but the (00:33:37) HVAC and the cabinets and pouring the (00:33:40) concrete foundation. (00:33:41) >> How big was that house? (00:33:42) >> Um 2,800 square feet. (00:33:43) >> Wow. (00:33:44) >> And so impressive. (00:33:45) >> Yeah. And they built it in 9 months, (00:33:46) which I feel like is And (00:33:48) >> did your kids help or who? (00:33:49) >> So at that point, we had two children (00:33:51) and they were little bitty. So uh 3 (00:33:53) years old and 18 months when we moved (00:33:55) in. (00:33:55) >> So they weren't helping. (00:33:56) >> No, [laughter] no, they weren't. No, no. (00:33:57) And I was taking them with me to Lowe's (00:33:59) like four days a week, sourcing all the (00:34:02) things, finding deals on things, driving (00:34:04) around to like scrap, you know, lumber (00:34:06) yards and resell places. Like that was (00:34:09) my job to to raise the babies and find (00:34:11) the deals for the lights and the (00:34:13) flooring and the paint colors and the (00:34:15) everything. So, we worked together as a (00:34:16) team to do that twice. Um, and we live (00:34:19) in the second build. Um, which we built (00:34:22) both of those for $50 a square foot. (00:34:24) Like, that's how much. (00:34:26) >> That's crazy. Is your husband looking (00:34:28) for work? (00:34:28) >> I know. [laughter] I know. Is he (00:34:30) hireable? (00:34:30) >> Yeah. So, he's actually a soft software (00:34:32) developer by trade, but (00:34:34) >> what a great guy. That's crazy. (00:34:35) >> He's a renaissance guy. He does all the (00:34:37) things. Um and so last summer, our (00:34:40) project was to build a sport court, (00:34:42) which we also did for pennies on the (00:34:44) dollar because my husband and my older (00:34:46) boys, who are big, brrawy, 6'1, like 210 (00:34:51) muscular dudes now, which is crazy (00:34:53) because those are the little boys that (00:34:54) we built that first house with. over (00:34:55) three and 18 months. And I always tell (00:34:58) people, this is always so encouraging to (00:34:59) moms. So, I try to include this in (00:35:01) podcast interviews anytime I can. People (00:35:03) are like, I can't believe you can do (00:35:04) everything you can do with 10. And of (00:35:06) course, they're picturing me with 10 (00:35:07) toddlers. They're not picturing me with (00:35:09) 10 that are spread out, some that are (00:35:10) legal adults, very responsible, very (00:35:12) helpful. And then my youngest at this (00:35:14) point are five. So, when we built that (00:35:17) first house, that was the hardest (00:35:18) parenting period that we ever (00:35:20) experienced because they couldn't do (00:35:21) anything. They couldn't help with the (00:35:22) house. They couldn't buckle their car (00:35:23) seats. They couldn't wipe their own (00:35:24) bumps. They couldn't pour their own (00:35:25) cereal. They couldn't do any of the (00:35:27) things that most of my kids can all do (00:35:29) at this point. And you just kind of (00:35:31) question like, is it always going to be (00:35:32) like this? Because it feels never (00:35:34) endingly difficult. And then you start (00:35:36) to get some perspective and you repeat (00:35:37) that process and it's not as (00:35:39) intimidating because you've done this (00:35:40) before and you flexed your muscles a (00:35:42) little bit and grown a little bit and (00:35:44) have more knowledge and more tools. So (00:35:46) this time, fast forward however many (00:35:48) years, you know, uh, 15 years, and we (00:35:52) have the teenagers helping build a sport (00:35:53) court. And so one of the ways that we're (00:35:56) able to do sports with our family is we (00:35:58) have two pickle ball courts and almost a (00:36:00) full length basketball court, four (00:36:01) square. We have the youth group over, we (00:36:04) go out there and play. (00:36:04) >> So did you get a bunch of land initially (00:36:06) in Texas? (00:36:06) >> So we have 10 acres that we live on. Um, (00:36:09) and so yeah, it is. We live in Texas. (00:36:11) it's, you know, the land was reasonably (00:36:13) priced and um there's more of it than (00:36:15) here in California that's available to (00:36:17) grab. And so um that's just something (00:36:21) that worked for our family that wouldn't (00:36:23) work for a lot of families, but I share (00:36:25) it as an example of finding what works (00:36:28) for your family to thrive and to do (00:36:30) things that your whole family enjoys (00:36:32) because yes, it will look very different (00:36:34) for different families. I've hear people (00:36:36) that get upset because they're like, (00:36:37) "Well, good for you. you have a husband (00:36:38) that can build or you live in a place (00:36:40) where you can find land and instead of (00:36:42) saying it must be nice what if we turned (00:36:44) it around and said Lord what do you have (00:36:45) for me what are you calling me to do to (00:36:48) build a family culture where our number (00:36:52) of children whether large or small is (00:36:54) not what's it it contributes to our (00:36:57) lifestyle certainly but it's not (00:36:58) limiting us it's a source of joy (00:37:01) >> there's another common I think uh (00:37:03) criticism or concern that I've heard (00:37:06) about big families that or being open to (00:37:08) big families that um you know when when (00:37:10) you say or other moms say well you don't (00:37:13) have a bunch of toddlers all at once (00:37:14) unless you get you have doubles or (00:37:16) triples or something but that's more (00:37:17) unusual you have older kids they help (00:37:20) with the younger kids I mean I think (00:37:21) about our 5-year-old he's so helpful and (00:37:23) he enjoys helping and he's looking out (00:37:24) for his younger siblings (00:37:26) >> but the concern or the criticism is well (00:37:28) you are making them mini parents (00:37:30) >> and you're damaging the childhood of (00:37:32) your older children by relying on them (00:37:34) so much and I will say as an oldest girl (00:37:36) in my family one of eight. Uh, you know, (00:37:39) I remember, you know, being like another (00:37:41) little mom to my younger siblings. (00:37:43) >> Looking back on it, I'm so grateful for (00:37:46) that. It was an incredible privilege and (00:37:47) blessing. I learned so much. I still had (00:37:49) with all the issues my family had (00:37:51) growing up, so much beautiful (00:37:53) experiences and blessings of my (00:37:55) childhood, (00:37:56) >> but there are real uh responsibilities (00:37:58) that I had growing up. (00:37:59) >> For sure. Yeah. So, there is a term that (00:38:02) has been coined in recent years that (00:38:03) you're referring to that's called (00:38:04) parentification. Um, and it's so (00:38:07) interesting when I have this (00:38:08) conversation with my online community (00:38:09) because I will have people come in and (00:38:11) say like, "Oh my goodness." So, I shared (00:38:13) a story the other day about my one of my (00:38:15) 13-year-old twin girls who she's not (00:38:18) type A, but she just loves to work. She (00:38:21) loves to be moving. She loves to bake. (00:38:23) She loves to serve. She just really gets (00:38:25) into helping people. It makes her happy. (00:38:27) Um, and so she had gotten up early, (00:38:30) packed the little boys backpacks for our (00:38:32) co-op day, had made me breakfast, had (00:38:35) done a lot of things to streamline. I (00:38:36) didn't ask her to do that. And someone (00:38:37) was like, "Oh, holy parentification. You (00:38:39) clearly are like requiring this of her." (00:38:41) Now, there are things that I do require (00:38:43) of my children because quite honestly, I (00:38:44) do not want to send unprepared adults (00:38:47) with zero life skills out into the world (00:38:49) to be a drain on society rather than a (00:38:52) blessing. So our family (00:38:53) >> to think that life is all about them (00:38:54) only (00:38:55) >> to think that the the world revolves (00:38:56) around them and they should be served (00:38:57) all the time. So we have a family motto (00:38:59) that informs everything that we do which (00:39:01) is be a blessing and we start with love (00:39:03) God love your neighbor. Your closest (00:39:06) neighbor is the people that you live (00:39:07) under the same roof with. If you are (00:39:10) skipping over your closest neighbor to (00:39:11) go be a blessing to the neighbor across (00:39:13) the street that's admirable for the (00:39:16) blessing to them but maybe not entirely (00:39:18) authentic because you don't have to live (00:39:19) with them. They may not be rubbing you (00:39:21) the wrong way and stealing your shoes (00:39:23) and, you know, putting your shirt in the (00:39:25) wash and turning it pink. It's when (00:39:27) we're actually stretched to love the (00:39:29) people that sometimes frustrate us the (00:39:31) most that true character grows and to (00:39:34) serve them and to see them as worthy (00:39:36) people to be a blessing to. And so that (00:39:38) is what we are teaching our children to (00:39:40) do. And that's what Nola was doing. Not (00:39:42) only because she wanted to be a (00:39:43) blessing, but because she enjoyed it. (00:39:45) Because it is possible to really enjoy (00:39:48) serving others. that joy bubbles out of (00:39:50) you. And some people have more of a (00:39:51) predisposition to that. Some people are (00:39:53) more like task oriented for themselves. (00:39:56) The Lord gave us all kinds of different (00:39:57) gifts. And Nola definitely has the gift (00:39:59) of of servant-heartedness. But to the (00:40:01) people in my DMs who hear me talking (00:40:04) about the way my kids serve, they're (00:40:05) like, "Listen, I actually was (00:40:07) parentrenified. As in, my parents left (00:40:10) me at home with my two younger siblings (00:40:13) without any other help. No food in the (00:40:16) fridge. I was supposed to come up with (00:40:18) everything. That is true parentification (00:40:20) and it is abuse to give your children (00:40:23) opportunities that are structured and (00:40:26) limited in scope because how many times (00:40:29) have I heard from people who grow up in (00:40:31) large families who thought they were (00:40:33) parentified because they helped quite a (00:40:34) bit and then they become parents and (00:40:36) they're like, "Oh, this is not the same (00:40:39) thing [laughter] at all. I was a help to (00:40:41) my family, but I was in no way the one (00:40:43) responsible or the one where the buck (00:40:45) stopped." And so I think it's a good (00:40:47) conversation to have when we see actual (00:40:49) abuse having. But to lay this layer of (00:40:53) all big families must be, you know, (00:40:56) turning their older siblings into I'll (00:40:58) give you an example of my 19-year-old. (00:41:01) So he lives at home with us. He's (00:41:02) apprenticing under his dad to be a (00:41:04) software developer because he's got the (00:41:05) same skill set as his dad. and he would (00:41:07) rather spend his money on car payments (00:41:10) and down payments on houses in the (00:41:12) future than on university when his dad (00:41:13) can teach him all the skills that he (00:41:14) needs to be a software developer. (00:41:16) >> So smart. (00:41:16) >> And he is a helpful dude. He um edits (00:41:20) and produces my podcast. I mean I pay (00:41:22) him to do that. That's not for free. Um (00:41:24) and he has jobs around the house still (00:41:26) because he lives there and we don't (00:41:28) require him to pay rent or anything. And (00:41:30) just this past weekend, my husband and I (00:41:32) were in Cabo. And um it was just he and (00:41:35) I. And on Sunday, Ezra, our oldest, took (00:41:39) all of our children to church while we (00:41:42) were gone. And then he took them out to (00:41:44) eat where we always go out to eat. And I (00:41:45) had a reader message me that's from (00:41:47) where we're from and said, "I just (00:41:48) wanted to give you cuz we we moms like (00:41:50) these out of girls, right? It's so nice (00:41:52) when we hear that the good things are (00:41:53) happening." She said, "I I just wanted (00:41:55) to tell you that your oldest son got (00:41:56) everybody in there, got them all seated, (00:41:58) went and placed the order. I'm sure he's (00:41:59) seen you do it a million times. Got (00:42:01) everybody situated and everybody did (00:42:03) great. And (00:42:05) >> that is a gift to him and a gift to us. (00:42:09) >> He's gonna be a great dad. (00:42:10) >> Yeah. He has so many (00:42:11) >> the ladies listener like, "Oh, Abby has (00:42:13) a 19-year-old son." [laughter] I mean, (00:42:14) it's a little young, I guess, for maybe (00:42:16) a lot of the women who listen 20s and (00:42:18) 30s, but they have a younger sister. (00:42:20) Sister is like wanting to get married in (00:42:21) their early 20s. So, (00:42:22) >> and he's happy to do it. That's (00:42:24) beautiful. Honestly, I know some people (00:42:26) just won't believe that, but like (00:42:28) >> he comes and he says because we are (00:42:31) making sure we're pouring into him. (00:42:32) >> Yes. [clears throat] (00:42:33) >> Like we're taking him out to eat and we (00:42:35) are paying for experiences to go to (00:42:37) pickle ball tournaments with his dad, (00:42:39) you know, and and we're paying his his (00:42:41) tournament fees. We pay for his gas. We (00:42:43) pay like cuz he helps take siblings to (00:42:45) practices and things like that. we are (00:42:47) happy to keep investing in him and to (00:42:49) show him how much we appreciate him um (00:42:51) until he leaves the house because we (00:42:54) work as a family unit. We work together. (00:42:57) We support each other. We're a blessing (00:42:58) to each other and then that overflows as (00:43:00) a blessing to the rest of the world. And (00:43:02) because everything I just said sounds so (00:43:03) idealic, I want to point out, of course, (00:43:05) that we do not always do this perfectly. (00:43:06) Of course, my kids fight. Of course, (00:43:08) there are times they are grumbling about (00:43:09) having to help each other. Of course, (00:43:11) they're not always a blessing to their (00:43:12) neighbor across the street. That's just (00:43:14) an example of seeing the fruit and (00:43:17) you're like how good it can be. (00:43:18) >> Praise God. Man, you you I planted some (00:43:21) seeds, Lord, but you grew that harvest. (00:43:23) >> I haven't shared this yet on the (00:43:24) podcast, but I feel compelled to because (00:43:26) of the parentification narrative that I (00:43:29) do think is somehow gets a little stuck (00:43:31) because we worry and it's back to the (00:43:33) control thing and and it's also (00:43:34) intentionality because people want to do (00:43:35) the right thing in raising their (00:43:37) families and being good parents or (00:43:39) future parents. I'm like I said the one (00:43:41) of eight oldest girl and I wrote in my (00:43:43) book Fighting for Life about my own you (00:43:46) know issues growing up I had there were (00:43:48) some mental health issues in my family (00:43:50) and you know some stress in the (00:43:52) household and problems the way that it (00:43:54) impacted me. Anyways all this to say I (00:43:56) remember being in therapy in my 20s (00:43:59) unpacking and unraveling my childhood (00:44:00) trying to be healthier you know (00:44:02) preparing for hopefully one day I could (00:44:04) be a wife and a mother all of this right (00:44:05) and trying to be very intentional about (00:44:06) it. And the suggestion at one point and (00:44:09) the therapist was really sound Christian (00:44:11) therapist but she wanted wanted to (00:44:12) explore what are what are some of the (00:44:13) deep rooted issues behind some of these (00:44:16) things that you're growing out of right (00:44:18) and one of them was the fact I'm the (00:44:19) oldest girl in the birth order you know (00:44:21) some of the stress in the household the (00:44:22) extra responsibilities I had was I (00:44:24) parentified really was it right (00:44:26) >> and no the the answer is no there were (00:44:29) issues you know and my parents are the (00:44:31) first they're so humble and amazing I (00:44:32) have such admiration for them there were (00:44:34) some things that they struggled with (00:44:35) that we struggle with as a family and as (00:44:37) a child, but I was asked to do very (00:44:40) appropriate things as the oldest (00:44:42) daughter. And if I had not been asked to (00:44:45) do those things, if I It makes me want (00:44:47) to cry thinking about it. Thank you, mom (00:44:48) and dad. If I hadn't been given the (00:44:50) opportunity to serve my younger (00:44:51) siblings, I don't know that I would have (00:44:53) had the sense of the bigness of heart to (00:44:57) want to start live action, (00:44:59) >> to want to do all of spend my 20s (00:45:01) traveling the world to share the (00:45:02) pro-life message, the pro- family (00:45:03) message, to have the family culture my (00:45:06) husband and I have now, which is (00:45:07) oriented towards how can we maximally (00:45:08) serve our family and other people. And (00:45:11) it's because of the example my parents (00:45:12) set and what they asked of me. (00:45:14) Absolutely. Growing up, because if they (00:45:15) had said, "Oh, little Laya, she gets to (00:45:17) do what she wants. everyone gets to do (00:45:18) what they want and we're only going to (00:45:19) have a few kids so everyone can do kind (00:45:20) of just have this ideal childhood where (00:45:22) they don't have responsibilities or (00:45:24) burdens or anything. Uh I don't think we (00:45:27) it would have set me up for any kind of (00:45:29) success in my character and my skills (00:45:32) quite frankly because you you build ski (00:45:34) you said skills you're creating adults (00:45:36) you're you want to launch people into (00:45:38) adulthood (00:45:39) >> and one of our cultural issues is people (00:45:40) are in in perpetual childhood. (00:45:42) >> Yes. (00:45:43) >> Because they haven't learned certain (00:45:44) things growing up. (00:45:45) >> Yes. 100%. Yeah. The scripture talks (00:45:47) about, I think it's in Romans, how (00:45:48) suffering produces character and (00:45:50) character produces hope and there's (00:45:52) perseverance in there as well. And then (00:45:54) we're memorizing Philippians 2 as a (00:45:56) family in Philippians 2 3 and 4 says, (00:45:58) "Look not only to your own needs, but to (00:46:00) the needs of others in humility, (00:46:01) consider others as more important than (00:46:04) yourselves. (00:46:05) >> Have this mind that is of Christ who (00:46:07) being in very nature God did not (00:46:09) consider equality with God something to (00:46:10) be grasped, but made himself humble to (00:46:12) the point of death on a cross." Like (00:46:15) it's so countercultural. It is so the (00:46:17) opposite of naval gazing and (00:46:18) self-orbiting and self-actualization and (00:46:21) self-self self. And the Bible says (00:46:24) that's [clears throat] how you get to (00:46:25) the point of true Christlike character. (00:46:28) And so (00:46:29) >> that's the path to heaven. You want to (00:46:30) go to heaven. That's the path you got to (00:46:32) be on. (00:46:32) >> Yeah. That well and and because since (00:46:35) Christ has saved us (00:46:37) >> Yes. Of course. (00:46:39) >> We we love him and we obey his (00:46:41) commandments. um and that is to love (00:46:44) others. (00:46:45) >> One of the big things I wanted to ask (00:46:47) you about and and um about your book too (00:46:50) with this finding the beauty and worth (00:46:52) and the ways motherhood marks our bodies (00:46:53) and souls. There is this fear a primal (00:46:56) fear today that I've never I don't (00:46:58) remember seeing this even a decade ago. (00:47:00) I think it's just I don't know if it's (00:47:03) social media. I don't I'm curious your (00:47:04) take on it, but there is more of a fear (00:47:06) I see today about motherhood than I have (00:47:08) ever noticed in my life. Anyways, maybe (00:47:11) because I'm noticing more historically. (00:47:13) I think it's a greater fear than I've (00:47:14) ever seen where people just think I'm (00:47:17) not I I can't mother. I was doing a (00:47:19) debate recently for my friend Ellen (00:47:21) Fischer for her show against this woman (00:47:22) who has this Dink podcast, Dual Income (00:47:24) No Kids, Childless by Choice, Child-Free (00:47:27) by Choice. (00:47:27) >> I think the statistics today for women, (00:47:30) there's like the highest ever number of (00:47:32) women cohort of women of reproductive (00:47:34) age don't want to have kids. Yep. And it (00:47:36) was women I think who voted Democrat (00:47:38) that were um in terms of what is most (00:47:41) important to you having (00:47:41) >> 12 out of 13 (00:47:43) >> having kids. (00:47:43) >> I think I saw this (00:47:44) >> 12 out of 13. Did it was like five or (00:47:46) six% wanted said that children is that (00:47:48) the 12 out of 13? (00:47:49) >> No, sorry to but there was a there was (00:47:52) almost the identical thing that I saw (00:47:53) recently where it was prioritizing (00:47:55) things in terms of order and they were (00:47:57) priorit prioritizing having children as (00:47:59) number 12. I think it's the same. My I (00:48:01) remember seeing it percentages wise, but (00:48:02) yeah, children for women in this cohort, (00:48:05) more left-leaning, again, not to like (00:48:07) hate on the left or anything like this, (00:48:08) but children were just seen as not a (00:48:10) priority. (00:48:11) >> Right. Right. (00:48:12) >> And I remember sitting across this table (00:48:13) from this like very sweet lady who's (00:48:16) just saying, "Oh, you know, I'm not I (00:48:18) don't think I'm equipped. I wouldn't (00:48:20) want to I don't think I could have be a (00:48:22) good mother if I tried, but also I I (00:48:24) like my life the way it is." Like, there (00:48:25) were all these reasons, (00:48:26) rationalizations. Yeah, I do think (00:48:29) social media has a huge role to play (00:48:32) here because one, we we replicate what (00:48:37) sells. And right now, one of the things (00:48:39) that's selling is the narrative that (00:48:42) motherhood um diminishes you and (00:48:44) destroys you. I literally have an entire (00:48:46) chapter and you bet your stretch marks (00:48:48) called um it's not destruction, it's (00:48:50) development. And it's essentially saying (00:48:53) as a push back to all the Tik Tok videos (00:48:56) and the Instagram videos that are like, (00:48:57) "You want to know why we we don't want (00:48:59) kids? Because they ruin your mental (00:49:00) health because they um they (00:49:04) disproportionately damage a woman's (00:49:06) career options." You know, because it's (00:49:08) kind of this feminist narrative of like (00:49:10) it's because it's not viewing the (00:49:12) ability to bear life as an incredible (00:49:15) unique gift that only women have. It's (00:49:17) viewing it as a curse, (00:49:18) >> a disadvantage. disadvantage in the work (00:49:21) field. Yes. Exactly. And also it ruins (00:49:24) your body. And so I talk in there about (00:49:28) >> I do have I have gone to brunch (00:49:30) successfully with my kids. (00:49:31) >> Okay. Exactly. It's there is a narrative (00:49:33) that you everything in your life shuts (00:49:35) down except for the caring for the (00:49:37) children. And there are periods where (00:49:39) that is somewhat true but it also kind (00:49:42) of depends on how you approach it. It (00:49:43) kind of depends on how willing you are. (00:49:46) Um, and this isn't entirely on topic, (00:49:48) but like I love thrifting. And I would (00:49:50) take five small children, eight and (00:49:52) under, with me thrifting all the time (00:49:54) because I didn't want to give give up (00:49:56) something that I loved, but I also (00:49:58) didn't want to not have children. And (00:50:00) so, we just went together and made it an (00:50:02) outing. And they got to play with the (00:50:04) toys at the thrift store, and I got to (00:50:06) browse. And man, I prepared. I brought (00:50:08) snacks and, you know, organic suckers (00:50:11) and things they didn't normally ever (00:50:12) get. like we made it a fun experience (00:50:15) because I was motivated to do something (00:50:16) that I enjoyed but also bring my family (00:50:18) along for the ride. So this narrative (00:50:20) that what you enjoy is going to die (00:50:22) because you have children that is a huge (00:50:24) influence. People are terrified of (00:50:26) giving up their comfort. They're ter (00:50:28) they're terrified of giving up their (00:50:29) entertainment. They're viewing it as the (00:50:31) highest form of good to be constantly in (00:50:34) a state of happiness which is (00:50:37) >> the feelings of happiness. (00:50:38) >> The feeling Yeah. Exactly. to a state of (00:50:40) of an emotional high is what people are (00:50:43) chasing constantly, which by the way is (00:50:46) an impossible goal and produces so much (00:50:49) anxiety and so much stress when we (00:50:52) experience joy organically because we're (00:50:54) able to be content in all circumstances (00:50:56) is how the Bible puts it. We are able to (00:50:59) recognize the good in the hard, the good (00:51:02) in the mundane, the good in the daily (00:51:05) faithfulness. But when we think that (00:51:07) life is supposed to be a highlight reel (00:51:09) or one of those montage things where the (00:51:10) girls run through the, you know, (00:51:12) clothing stores changing clothes and (00:51:14) laughing maniacally like, "Oh, that's (00:51:16) the definition of female success and (00:51:18) joy." Someone's like, "That is not my (00:51:20) definition, Abby." Whatever. But it's (00:51:22) how romantic comedies paint things. (00:51:23) Like, you should be in a state of (00:51:26) euphoria. And no one can maintain that. (00:51:28) It would be exhausting to do so. And in (00:51:30) fact, struggle, as I've said before, is (00:51:33) where we so often find the catalyst for (00:51:36) change and growth and relying on the (00:51:39) Lord's strength instead of our own (00:51:40) strength. The Bible says his power is (00:51:42) made perfect in our weakness. And when (00:51:44) we are weak, he is strong. He's always (00:51:46) strong, but we recognize how strong he (00:51:49) is. When we recognize how weak we are, (00:51:51) motherhood can make us feel pretty weak (00:51:53) sometimes. And that can feel like a (00:51:55) disadvantage. It can feel like a bad (00:51:57) thing. But when it makes us recognize (00:51:59) our need for Christ, it is in fact a (00:52:01) very good thing. Now, I will tell you (00:52:02) this, much of social media that's (00:52:05) banging the strum, they don't have (00:52:07) Christ and we can't expect them to have (00:52:09) a Christlike perspective. It's when (00:52:11) Christian moms start falling and sliding (00:52:13) into this hole of self-focus and feeling (00:52:16) like m children are taking things from (00:52:18) them rather than giving them (00:52:20) opportunities for growth or adding joy (00:52:22) to their lives or adding um service to (00:52:24) their lives which are all good things (00:52:26) that you have to say. Are you reading (00:52:28) your Bible? Are you actually looking to (00:52:32) someone other than a social media (00:52:33) influencer who isn't even a Christian? (00:52:35) >> Are you totally surrendered to the will (00:52:37) of God? (00:52:37) >> Yeah. Are you making good choices to (00:52:39) discern between good and almost good? (00:52:42) You know, because some things can look (00:52:44) pretty good and then you scratch the (00:52:45) surface. The Bible says that sin is (00:52:47) sweet for a season, but in the end it it (00:52:48) leads to death. So just because it feels (00:52:50) good doesn't mean that it is good. And (00:52:53) just because it feels bad doesn't mean (00:52:54) that it is bad. I think that's such an (00:52:56) important point you're making about (00:52:58) social media, Abby, because I think (00:53:00) social media that is I think maybe the (00:53:03) thing in the last decade plus. I'm I'm (00:53:05) thinking about this viral reel I just (00:53:07) saw recently of this couple childless by (00:53:10) choice or maybe we will in the future, (00:53:11) but like we're not going to do, you (00:53:13) know, we're not going to have kids (00:53:14) anytime soon. (00:53:15) >> And they're creating a map. It's like (00:53:17) this I I think there was like it was (00:53:19) like very well edited of course one (00:53:21) version went viral but it's like all the (00:53:23) places they've traveled to together and (00:53:24) there's like a little jet like thing and (00:53:26) you can watch it all over the globe and (00:53:28) then and they basically said we couldn't (00:53:29) do this if we had kids (00:53:30) >> right and (00:53:31) >> I remember looking at that reel and (00:53:32) thinking (00:53:34) >> imagine if they'd been open to life and (00:53:35) had the blessing of a child and then (00:53:37) they could have you know if they wanted (00:53:38) to share the child filmed the child's (00:53:40) incredible human development and the (00:53:42) smiles at different ages what is more (00:53:45) meaningful what is more oriented towards (00:53:47) love of other. What is more human? (00:53:50) Zipping around the world on an like a (00:53:52) piece of plastic and metal on the air (00:53:54) and like having exotic experiences be (00:53:57) and and rejecting the opportunity for (00:53:59) new love and life or saying yes to life (00:54:02) and getting to nurture and nourish a new (00:54:04) human life and all of the you know the (00:54:06) development and the growth that they'll (00:54:07) have. (00:54:08) >> Yeah. And there's (00:54:10) >> and not to be so harsh in a judgment of (00:54:12) that but I just say what are you (00:54:13) missing? (00:54:14) >> Right. Right. What have we been like (00:54:16) trained to appreciate as a culture and (00:54:18) what have we been trained to devalue as (00:54:20) a culture? (00:54:21) >> That is 100% what it is. We are trained, (00:54:23) we are allowing ourselves to be trained (00:54:26) by the algorithm, to be trained by the (00:54:27) viral videos to view success, to view (00:54:31) joy from a very secular perspective. And (00:54:34) I would just share from from personal (00:54:39) experience because this will not be (00:54:41) everybody's story. But one thing that (00:54:44) our family has valued and several other (00:54:46) big families that we know have valued is (00:54:48) travel. And you have to be creative and (00:54:50) you have to save and you have to clip (00:54:52) coupons and you have to find ways to do (00:54:54) it that work. Um, but we actually ended (00:54:57) up saving up over multiple multiple (00:54:59) years to take all 10 of our children to (00:55:01) Europe once we were there because (00:55:03) getting there is expensive although we (00:55:05) managed to score incredible tickets. Um, (00:55:08) we stayed for 45 days and traveled to (00:55:10) six different countries. Wow. And I know (00:55:12) this will not be everybody's story and (00:55:13) quite honestly there's I don't know too (00:55:16) many people that want to take 10 kids to (00:55:17) Europe, you know, like I think a lot of (00:55:19) people would be like, "No thanks. That (00:55:20) doesn't sound like fun." It was (00:55:22) challenging, but it was also so cool to (00:55:26) see all of those places through my kids' (00:55:28) eyes. (00:55:29) >> Sounds so fun. (00:55:29) >> And to see them experience food and (00:55:32) different cultures. (00:55:33) >> How old was the youngest? (00:55:34) >> Um, it was our 2-year-old twins. So, we (00:55:36) took our 2-year-old twins. (00:55:37) >> So, wait, did you have to pay their (00:55:38) tickets? (00:55:39) >> Um, yes, we did. Okay, they had (00:55:41) [laughter] hit the (00:55:41) >> They had hit the two for sure. Um, and I (00:55:44) I will never forget that trip. My (00:55:46) husband and I have traveled to cool (00:55:47) places and many of them are memorable. (00:55:50) That is the trip that is emlazened upon (00:55:52) my memory as kind of the, you know, the (00:55:56) cornerstone of one of the coolest (00:55:58) adventures our family has ever been on (00:56:00) and maybe will ever be on. And if (00:56:03) someone had told me I would do it with (00:56:05) 10 kids one day, I'd probably be (00:56:07) terrified and be like, why would I? That (00:56:09) sounds like too much. But also, if (00:56:11) someone had told me, "There's no way (00:56:13) you'll be ever to there's no way you'll (00:56:15) ever be able to do this if you have 10 (00:56:17) children." I I might have been scared (00:56:19) that I would be completely missing out (00:56:20) and made decisions based on that when (00:56:22) ultimately, (00:56:24) you know, it it worked out. It It better (00:56:26) than worked out. (00:56:27) >> Never say never, too, (00:56:29) >> right? (00:56:29) >> I think that's the other thing. And I (00:56:31) think the Lord, if there's a desire in (00:56:32) your heart, make it known to the Lord. (00:56:34) Their desire is, okay, I'm going to I'm (00:56:36) going to be your your sovereignty is (00:56:38) going to rule my life. I'm open to life. (00:56:41) I'm going to, you know, love others and (00:56:43) love you, and I'm going to try to live (00:56:45) this walk, right? I have this desire to (00:56:47) go to Europe, you know, I have this (00:56:48) desire to write a book, do a podcast, (00:56:52) build a business, right? I mean, I'm (00:56:54) right now with Live Action, I've got (00:56:55) this ministry, I've got a business with (00:56:57) the podcast, and we're doing working on (00:56:58) this new exciting resource for moms and (00:57:00) all these other things. These have been (00:57:02) the source of desires. Yes. A lot of (00:57:05) discernment, work it through with your (00:57:06) husband, prayer, you know, test it, all (00:57:09) of this. But the Lord's a Lord of (00:57:12) abundance, (00:57:13) >> and he can do anything, (00:57:15) anything, everything beyond anything we (00:57:17) could ask or think. Um, and I will say, (00:57:19) we planned this trip for years and it (00:57:21) was killed by CO. We were supposed to (00:57:23) leave in April and everything shut down (00:57:25) in March and I was pregnant with the (00:57:27) twin boys and it was like, well, there's (00:57:28) no way this is ever going to happen. And (00:57:30) then almost three years later is when we (00:57:32) actually got to do it. And it was a (00:57:35) better trip than it would have been (00:57:37) almost three years before. It was it was (00:57:39) about three years. Um and so seeing like (00:57:42) that the Lord brought that to fruition (00:57:43) in his timing. I would say the same with (00:57:46) you asked me at the very beginning like (00:57:47) how did you come to write books? I (00:57:49) wanted to write books since I was a (00:57:50) child but I didn't have like a theme. I (00:57:53) didn't have this vision. I didn't have a (00:57:55) voice yet. And so I wrote and grew a (00:57:59) readership because my husband was like, (00:58:01) "Hey, this is what the internet says to (00:58:02) do." You know, be on the internet and um (00:58:05) grow a readership and get to know people (00:58:07) and maybe if you actually find time (00:58:09) because a blog post is not a book. You (00:58:11) know, you can fit those into nap time. (00:58:13) Writing a book, oh my goodness, when was (00:58:14) I ever going to do that? Well, the Lord (00:58:16) made it clear when it was to happen. And (00:58:18) it wasn't until I was 39 years old that (00:58:19) I po published my first book after (00:58:21) having a desire in my heart to do it (00:58:23) that I prayed about and strove toward (00:58:25) sometimes and sometimes just released to (00:58:28) the Lord. Ultimately, honestly, the (00:58:31) publishers's email that showed up in my (00:58:32) inbox showed up at a time when I had (00:58:34) become perfectly content with where I (00:58:36) was sharing online. I wasn't striving (00:58:37) for anything. I was just sharing what (00:58:39) the Lord gave me on a daily basis. And (00:58:41) then my publisher reached out to me and (00:58:42) said, "I've followed you for years. I've (00:58:44) had kids at the same time as you. I (00:58:45) really like what you're saying. Do you (00:58:46) want to write a book?" and she knew I (00:58:48) did. She knew that that was a desire of (00:58:49) my heart and he really truly brought it (00:58:51) to fruition in the right time for it to (00:58:54) be a good fit for our family for my (00:58:56) husband husband to be completely on (00:58:58) board. Um, and now we're able to do (00:59:00) things like my daughters come with us to (00:59:02) events and such are such a blessing to (00:59:04) people like they they help them at our (00:59:07) table and they love it and they get to (00:59:09) travel with us. Um, and my sons will (00:59:11) help if it's a local event. So, it's (00:59:13) very much of a family affair and all of (00:59:15) those questions I had about like how (00:59:17) would this ever work without being a (00:59:18) stress on our family, there's still (00:59:20) factors in there. There's still things (00:59:22) you have to figure out and work together (00:59:23) toward, but it's a very unified approach (00:59:26) and seeing how enthusiastic my husband (00:59:28) is for it and supportive and all the (00:59:29) things he does to make it happen cuz (00:59:31) he's really the foundation of our family (00:59:32) as well as the leader. It's just such a (00:59:35) gift. It's really cool. (00:59:36) >> That's so beautiful. What's beautiful (00:59:38) about what you just shared that I just (00:59:40) want to emphasize is you had the desire. (00:59:43) You were real about the desire. You (00:59:45) weren't like scared of your desires to (00:59:47) write books or to you know write and and (00:59:49) had this community. Well, your husband (00:59:51) even encouraged the community part and (00:59:54) but you surrendered it to God and you (00:59:55) took meaningful steps towards it when it (00:59:57) made sense within your family life and (00:59:59) then God provided the opportunity. (01:00:00) Right? I think that's a very good lesson (01:00:03) because I sometimes I think when when I (01:00:05) hear moms talk about their unhappiness (01:00:07) or their stress or you know the things (01:00:09) that they're struggling with and that's (01:00:10) what I want to ask you about next is (01:00:12) that mother who's just not happy she's (01:00:15) not feeling happy in her motherhood. I (01:00:17) think one foundational thing not the (01:00:18) only there's a lot of things that may be (01:00:20) going on there but one foundational (01:00:21) thing is are there desires that you have (01:00:24) that are not identified expressed (01:00:28) ultimately surrendered? Yes. And then (01:00:30) within the realm of your everyday life (01:00:32) and you know with your husband I you (01:00:34) know under his leadership can you take (01:00:37) little steps (01:00:38) >> towards those things because our desires (01:00:40) are not bad if they are ordered towards (01:00:43) good and true and beautiful right and (01:00:45) and God allows us to have desires and (01:00:48) God can bring beautiful things out of (01:00:50) those desires and we shouldn't try to (01:00:52) stifle them ignore them fight them and (01:00:55) I'm talking about like moral desires (01:00:56) like something that could be like okay I (01:00:58) want to write a book start a business, (01:01:00) get super healthy, you know, do this new (01:01:02) project, whatever it is, right? Have (01:01:04) this dream home that I'm dreaming of, (01:01:06) whatever it is. Uh, but the I think the (01:01:09) identification of the thing, the (01:01:10) expression of the thing, the convers (01:01:13) conversation around the thing with (01:01:14) husband, with adviserss, and then the (01:01:16) surrender to God of the thing. (01:01:18) >> Yeah. [clears throat] (01:01:18) >> And taking whatever concrete steps we (01:01:20) can within the realm of what is our life (01:01:22) at the time. (01:01:23) >> That's all part of, I think, what we (01:01:25) should be open to as moms and women. (01:01:29) from it. Like if the Lord wills, we will (01:01:31) write a book or have more kids or move (01:01:34) into a different house or, you know, so (01:01:36) many things that we're trying to (01:01:37) micromanage. The Lord has like we doubt (01:01:41) his goodness and his sovereignty so much (01:01:43) when things don't look like our (01:01:45) five-year plan. And I really encourage (01:01:47) people to throw the five-year plan out (01:01:49) the window to say because that is (01:01:51) encouraged by scripture. It's not, you (01:01:53) know, we're going to go tomorrow and (01:01:55) we're going to build this and we're (01:01:55) going to make this city great and we're (01:01:57) going to have this and we're going to (01:01:57) that. James literally pushes back and (01:02:00) says if the Lord wills, those things (01:02:03) will happen. (01:02:03) >> But you can still try, right? I mean, I (01:02:06) think that's the the beauty of the dance (01:02:07) of the Christian walk, right? Your (01:02:08) husband physically had a plan for that (01:02:10) house that he built. You had a vision in (01:02:12) your eye for this book, right? Um a (01:02:14) vision in your mind for this book. So, (01:02:15) we could and then we take one step at a (01:02:17) time order to order to God. (01:02:19) >> It's not pacivity. It's not um floating (01:02:22) along like a blob. We are called to love (01:02:25) God and to follow him to be intentional (01:02:29) in how we how we teach our children just (01:02:31) like it talks about in Deuteronomy 66 (01:02:32) through8 to to teach his ways to our (01:02:35) children as we lie, sit, walk, and (01:02:36) stand. I have a whole chapter on that (01:02:38) and you bet your stretch marks. And to (01:02:40) look not only to our current (01:02:44) circumstances, but to how what we're (01:02:46) doing to invest in our families leave a (01:02:48) legacy for the future. That's not the (01:02:50) same thing as worrying about tomorrow. (01:02:51) That's not the same thing as trying to (01:02:53) force something to happen. That is (01:02:55) saying that we will preach God's (01:02:57) goodness now and then may that be passed (01:02:59) along to the generations because we were (01:03:01) faithful in the steps that he gave us (01:03:03) each day that we took. Cuz you're right, (01:03:05) it's not wrong to take those practical (01:03:07) steps. We see the Proverbs 31 woman is a (01:03:10) very industrious woman. And of course, (01:03:12) she is a prototype. She's not like (01:03:13) probably describing an actual woman that (01:03:16) does all the things that she does. She (01:03:17) goes to bed late at night. She gets up (01:03:18) early in the morning, she's always (01:03:20) spinning, she's always buying houses and (01:03:21) land and all this stuff. That's, you (01:03:23) know, kind of more of like women are (01:03:26) capable of these managing skills. That's (01:03:28) another lie that social media is telling (01:03:30) women is that they are just not capable (01:03:32) of very much. That they are not capable (01:03:35) of running a home and having multiple (01:03:37) children and homeschooling or having (01:03:39) >> a business (01:03:40) >> or having a business that doesn't (01:03:43) completely sabotage your ability to do (01:03:45) the primary things. has to be ordered (01:03:47) >> because people are always like, I mean, (01:03:48) how do you write books when you have 10 (01:03:50) children at home? And I talk about that (01:03:51) in the book. Sometimes I'm writing a (01:03:53) chapter while five of my boys are like (01:03:56) whacking each other with pillows 5 feet (01:03:58) away from me and my my computer might (01:04:00) get a throw pillow literally thrown at (01:04:02) it. You know, sometimes we um I told you (01:04:05) that my my mom is really invested in our (01:04:08) family because she truly believes in (01:04:10) that legacy mindset of passing along (01:04:12) God's goodness to the generations. So, (01:04:14) we actually hire her to come two days a (01:04:16) week. That's why we were able. Yeah. (01:04:18) >> So, you pay your mom. (01:04:19) >> We pay my mom. (01:04:19) >> I'm a big ad. I was reading an article (01:04:21) about this recently. This idea of paying (01:04:23) the grandparents to help with the kids. (01:04:25) Yes. 100%. (01:04:26) >> And she they do need the money. Um you (01:04:29) were talking about like struggles (01:04:30) growing up. My dad's actually bipolar. (01:04:31) We've had struggles. There's not a (01:04:33) single family that doesn't struggle, (01:04:35) that doesn't have something that's hard (01:04:37) or a generational curse that's passed (01:04:38) down that you're fighting against. The (01:04:40) Lord is sovereign over that, too. It (01:04:42) says that he works all things for good (01:04:43) for those who love him and are called (01:04:45) according to his purpose. And so having (01:04:47) my mom where we can provide income for (01:04:49) her so she doesn't have to work for (01:04:51) someone else in her older age, she is as (01:04:53) like dynamite and spry as you could (01:04:54) possibly be at 74. Like she holds the (01:04:56) fort, but she's the reason I can do a (01:04:58) lot of the things that I do. So when (01:04:59) someone else says, well, you know, how (01:05:02) are you managing that? I'm very, very (01:05:04) transparent. I have her help. I have a (01:05:07) husband who's completely on board at (01:05:08) this point. There were other periods (01:05:10) like 10 years ago when I was like, "How (01:05:11) do I make this work?" And he's like, "I (01:05:12) don't think the timing is right. (01:05:14) >> We don't have the right age of kids. (01:05:16) We're doing house building. This is this (01:05:18) is the resources aren't lining up." And (01:05:20) I was like, "You're right. You're right. (01:05:21) You're right. The answer is not yet." (01:05:23) And I didn't know if it would be ever. (01:05:25) And so, um, sometimes my mom is holding (01:05:28) the fort while I run up the road to (01:05:30) Starbucks and write as fast as I can for (01:05:31) 2 hours. Sometimes it's after the kids (01:05:33) are in bed. Sometimes it's at the dining (01:05:35) room table while they're making dinner (01:05:36) because I have kids that are old enough (01:05:38) to make dinner now. Um there's not just (01:05:41) any one answer to how you make it work, (01:05:43) but you do have to kind of keep your (01:05:45) finger on the pulse of your heart, so to (01:05:47) speak. Like, where is my heart in this? (01:05:49) Is my heart in it to make my name great (01:05:51) and to build something away from my (01:05:53) family or is my heart in it to serve (01:05:55) other moms because that's my primary (01:05:57) community, my primary audience and (01:06:00) direct them to the Lord and give them (01:06:01) some practical helps along the way while (01:06:04) keeping my main gig, my main gig, which (01:06:08) is being at home with my family. So (01:06:10) yeah, sometimes I travel to podcasts and (01:06:11) my husband's good with that. He's home (01:06:13) being a dad. He's not watching the kids. (01:06:15) he is parenting the children you because (01:06:17) they're he's their parent and he is the (01:06:19) one that told me to come. He's like, (01:06:21) "Yeah, that's a great opportunity. Go do (01:06:23) that." Um, and then there are other (01:06:24) times that we say, "This would cause (01:06:27) stress and chaos in our home. It's not (01:06:28) [clears throat] the right season. It's (01:06:29) too much. So, I'm going to say no, even (01:06:31) if it is a great opportunity." So, it's (01:06:34) >> and that's it goes back to the trusting (01:06:35) God, the open-handedness (01:06:36) >> and what you were talking about moms (01:06:38) that are that are constantly in a tizzy (01:06:42) about what they lack and not knowing (01:06:44) what their destiny is and feeling so (01:06:47) limited and you ask them, "Okay, have (01:06:49) you prayed about this specifically?" And (01:06:51) they look like at you and just pause and (01:06:53) they're like, I mean, some say yes, of (01:06:56) course, and some are like, you know, (01:06:58) I've worried about it a whole lot. I've (01:07:00) talked to my girlfriends about it a (01:07:01) whole lot, but like I don't know that (01:07:03) God cares about this. He does. It says (01:07:05) that the hairs of your head are numbered (01:07:07) by him, that your that your names are (01:07:10) graven on his palms. Um that our tears (01:07:13) are kept in a bottle. Like the Lord (01:07:14) cares about the details of our lives. He (01:07:16) cares about our hopes and dreams that (01:07:18) are geared toward godliness and truth. (01:07:21) And so they may not turn out like we (01:07:24) want them to. But the Bible also says, (01:07:26) "You do not receive because you do not (01:07:28) ask." And that's not like some sort of (01:07:31) like stick a quarter in a gumball (01:07:33) machine and get the gumball you want (01:07:34) out. It's just a reminder that so often (01:07:37) we get in our own heads and we forget (01:07:39) that we have the God of the universe who (01:07:43) will listen to every care, every worry, (01:07:45) no matter how big or small. (01:07:47) >> That's such a beautiful place. I know (01:07:49) we've got to end soon. you've got to (01:07:50) fight out. But that was one of my (01:07:52) favorite things that I've seen that (01:07:54) you've written is your reminder to (01:07:57) mothers to yeah surrender everything but (01:08:00) to pray very specifically about the (01:08:02) tasks of motherhood because I do think (01:08:05) there can be so much stress and just (01:08:07) quandery like what do we do you know the (01:08:10) potty training the breastfeeding the (01:08:11) weaning the (01:08:13) >> you know the discipline the you know how (01:08:15) to teach the faith and pass on the faith (01:08:17) you know things with your marriage (01:08:18) you're trying to figure out and like (01:08:20) your lifestyle and work and but praying (01:08:22) very specifically about every detail of (01:08:25) your life. Yeah. (01:08:26) >> And asking yes wise counsel your husband (01:08:29) you know consulting holy scripture but (01:08:31) asking the Holy Spirit in your prayer. (01:08:33) >> Yeah. Yeah. James says that when we ask (01:08:35) for wisdom God gives it freely and (01:08:37) without reproach. If anybody doesn't (01:08:39) know what the rep what the word reproach (01:08:41) means. It means the kind of things we do (01:08:43) for our kids. Like why did why did you (01:08:44) do that? Like why? Why? When I've asked (01:08:47) you not to pick up the jar of milk that (01:08:48) is too heavy for you, why did you do (01:08:50) that? Because now it's all over the (01:08:51) ground. Like what were you thinking? You (01:08:52) know, we say that those kinds of things (01:08:53) as parents. That's not what God says to (01:08:55) us when we ask for wisdom. It's not what (01:08:57) we should say to our kids either when (01:08:58) they ask for wisdom. But sometimes we (01:09:00) find ourselves reproaching them because (01:09:02) they didn't think something through. (01:09:04) When we say, "Lord, I don't know what to (01:09:06) do. Please help." The Bible says he (01:09:07) gives it freely and without reproach, (01:09:09) which means he does not put his hands on (01:09:10) his hips and say, "Stupid, you haven't (01:09:12) figured this out yet." He says, "My (01:09:14) child, I love you. Let me direct you in (01:09:17) the right way." And that should give us (01:09:19) so much confidence and so much hope for (01:09:21) our futures instead of putting our head (01:09:23) to a bat and spinning and just coming up (01:09:25) dizzier than we started. (01:09:27) >> Do you have a example or a story of when (01:09:30) you feel like in your motherhood when (01:09:32) you're trying to figure out how to do it (01:09:33) with that intentionality, with that (01:09:35) faith, you feel like the Holy Spirit (01:09:37) gave you a special insight? (01:09:39) >> 100%. So, I've told this story many (01:09:41) times before in my books, but I was (01:09:44) struggling with postpartum rage after my (01:09:46) eighth child. And I didn't know it had a (01:09:48) name. I didn't know it was a thing. I'm (01:09:50) not really a big label person. And so, I (01:09:54) just knew I was irritable all the time (01:09:56) after my eighth baby. He was about 8 (01:09:58) weeks old. And I just felt stressed. And (01:10:01) I say all the time, it wasn't all the (01:10:02) time, but often. And things felt very (01:10:04) global. like a child doing child things (01:10:07) like not being able to find their shoe (01:10:09) felt personal. And that's something that (01:10:11) I found is that (01:10:13) >> when it's a hormonal thing, when it's (01:10:14) like a kind of outside of yourself kind (01:10:17) of thing, it feels like they're doing it (01:10:19) on purpose and they're out to get you, (01:10:21) which is not that's not a true narrative (01:10:22) most of the time, especially with small (01:10:24) children. They're just being small (01:10:25) children, right? And um so I was really (01:10:29) struggling one afternoon as we had small (01:10:31) group coming over. I'd asked my children (01:10:33) to do some things to clean up. I was (01:10:35) still nursing, not sleeping much at (01:10:37) night. And so I went to lie down for a (01:10:38) nap and I had my list of things to do. (01:10:40) This was not y'all clean cuz I'm not (01:10:42) going to. It was like I'm going to sleep (01:10:43) for 30 minutes and then I'm going to (01:10:44) tackle this list before our small group (01:10:46) comes over. And I came downstairs and (01:10:48) they hadn't done a very good job. And I (01:10:51) was just lecturing and I wasn't very (01:10:52) kind and my tone was harsh and I knew (01:10:55) that this was a pattern that I've been (01:10:56) in for several weeks and my husband (01:10:59) after the kids kind of slunk off to do (01:11:01) their jobs again cuz they really hadn't (01:11:03) done a great job after that happened. My (01:11:05) husband was like, "Hey, I know you're (01:11:07) struggling. I know you're not getting (01:11:08) much sleep. I know hormones are a beast (01:11:10) after a baby, but like something needs (01:11:12) to change." And I'd already been feeling (01:11:15) this. And so I said, "You're right." And (01:11:18) I apologized to my children and I asked (01:11:20) the Lord to give me wisdom and he gave (01:11:22) me this idea for something called the (01:11:23) gentleness challenge. 30 days of kind (01:11:25) speech or keeping your mouth shut if you (01:11:27) have nothing kind to say [laughter] (01:11:29) >> and I started an online community. (01:11:32) Thousands of women showed up immediately (01:11:35) were like me too. Me too. Me too. I knew (01:11:37) I wasn't alone. (01:11:37) >> So never a harsh word. (01:11:39) >> Um that's the goal. And if you and if (01:11:41) you're harsh then you say I'm so sorry. (01:11:43) I I didn't do that right. Please forgive (01:11:44) me. and you give your children an (01:11:46) opportunity to see repentance modeled, (01:11:47) which is a really good thing. And so, (01:11:50) because quite honestly, if for some (01:11:52) reason we were to somehow manage to be (01:11:54) perfect parents, in some ways that would (01:11:56) not be a gift to our children because (01:11:57) they would go through life thinking (01:11:59) they're the only ones that fail and (01:12:00) they're the only ones that struggle. So, (01:12:01) when we are transparent with our (01:12:03) struggles to our children and we say, "I (01:12:05) didn't actually approach that right. I (01:12:06) was too harsh. I made assumptions about (01:12:08) you that were wrong." or you did wrong (01:12:11) and I disciplined you but I did it in (01:12:12) anger or I wasn't very kind about it or (01:12:15) I didn't think this through. You know, I (01:12:18) I'm a human. I'm sorry. I didn't do that (01:12:20) right. Exactly. (01:12:21) >> When you do that, it's a gift for your (01:12:23) children to say, I have permission (01:12:26) to (01:12:28) not permission to sin like, "Shall we go (01:12:30) on sinning so the grace may increase?" (01:12:31) Romans 6 says, "By no means." We don't (01:12:33) do that. We don't test the grace of God (01:12:35) by intentionally sinning. But when we (01:12:36) inevitably do the very thing that we (01:12:38) didn't really want to do or don't do the (01:12:40) thing we want to do um or our sin nature (01:12:43) just rears its ugly head, we're able to (01:12:46) say Christ has covered that and I can (01:12:49) continue in repentance. So that's what I (01:12:51) did. All these moms joined in and I just (01:12:54) did it for myself and then I posted for (01:12:56) them and they were joining along with me (01:12:57) and praying for each other. And then I (01:12:59) got asked for a specific resource. So I (01:13:01) actually wrote an ebook because people (01:13:03) were like please walk us through every (01:13:04) day of the 30 days. So each day has it's (01:13:07) very short. It's very doable for moms. (01:13:09) Has an action step. It has a scripture. (01:13:11) >> Is that in here at all? (01:13:12) >> No, it's it's it's on my website fornet. (01:13:14) [laughter] (01:13:15) >> Um I have a whole chapter in for mama, (01:13:17) my my first book describing this (01:13:19) process, but the actual resource is just (01:13:21) on my website (01:13:22) >> and it walks you through all 30 days (01:13:24) with a special focus. Like one day is (01:13:26) literally speaking less (01:13:28) >> because the Bible says where there is an (01:13:30) abundance of words, there is sin (01:13:32) present. But he who keeps his counsel is (01:13:34) wise. So so many times like when we're (01:13:37) just board vomiting on our kids or our (01:13:39) spouses, we do better to just shut our (01:13:42) mouths. So each day has a specific (01:13:44) focus. It's very practical. It's very (01:13:46) scriptural. That was a huge moment of (01:13:48) asking for wisdom and being given a very (01:13:50) very clear answer from the Lord. (01:13:53) >> Thank you, Abby. Abby, this is awesome. (01:13:55) We could I could talk to you for hours. (01:13:57) How can people find your work? (01:13:58) >> Um you can find me on misformama.net, (01:14:00) which is where I've blogged for 15 (01:14:02) years. I've got all kinds of resources (01:14:03) there. All three of my books are (01:14:04) available anywhere books are sold. And I (01:14:07) mainly hang out on Instagram at (01:14:08) m.is.4.mmama. (01:14:10) >> What's your favorite of your books that (01:14:11) you say you have to buy this one? (01:14:12) >> You bet your stretch marks. Yeah. (01:14:14) >> Here you go, guys. [laughter] (01:14:15) Thank you, Abby. (01:14:16) >> You're welcome. Thanks for having me. (01:14:17) >> Beautiful. Thanks so much for listening (01:14:19) to this episode of the Llaya Rose Show (01:14:21) with Abby Halberstat. I hope you all (01:14:23) enjoyed it. I know I learned something, (01:14:24) especially that last challenge that she (01:14:26) gave us for 30 days of gentle correction (01:14:29) and treatment of your children. I'm (01:14:32) going to try to do that over the next 30 (01:14:33) days. Make sure you're subscribed to (01:14:35) this channel if you're not already (01:14:36) subscribed. And please check out our (01:14:37) Patreon. We're growing a community over (01:14:39) there. That's patreon.com/laose. (01:14:42) A huge thank you to our partner, EWTN, (01:14:44) the largest religious broadcaster in the (01:14:46) entire world. EWTN is reaching millions (01:14:48) of people every single day with the (01:14:50) beautiful truth of the gospel. You can (01:14:52) watch new episodes of the Llaya Rose (01:14:54) Show 24 hours before they hit podcast (01:14:56) app over at EWTN.com/ondondemand.