“We Learn It Too Late” – 5 Regrets Trapping People From A Life Of Purpose & Meaning | Gabor Maté (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) Gabel you turned 80 yeah a few months (00:00:03) ago two months ago yeah how is that for (00:00:07) you (00:00:10) um you know we had a really nice party (00:00:13) um and my children came and they wrote (00:00:15) us some songs and they performed them (00:00:17) and uh close friends were there it was (00:00:19) very warm we had wonderful Palestinian (00:00:22) food uh catered and uh it was a really (00:00:25) good time and it (00:00:28) felt it felt like I arrived somewhere (00:00:30) you know and (00:00:33) uh nobody ever imagines being 80 I mean (00:00:36) do you imagine ever being 80 yeah it's (00:00:39) funny as you you ask that question no (00:00:42) you think about lots of things in life I (00:00:44) do imagine sometimes what it might be (00:00:45) like when my wife and I are old and what (00:00:48) we might do together but no I can't I (00:00:51) can't say I've ever imagined actually (00:00:53) being 80 years old yeah and at some (00:00:56) point it would have struck me as such an (00:00:58) impossibly U geriatric number you know (00:01:02) at this point is just a number you know (00:01:04) and it's it's almost (00:01:06) meaningless except it's not completely (00:01:08) meaningless because I know that the time (00:01:12) is one always knows that the time is (00:01:15) limited intellectually we understand is (00:01:16) that nobody lives forever and we never (00:01:19) know when the reaper is going to come (00:01:21) knocking on your door but at the same (00:01:23) time once you get to be 80 you realize (00:01:26) that whenever it's going to happen it's (00:01:27) going to happen within a fairly short (00:01:29) period of time and when I think of when (00:01:31) I retired from active Medical Practice (00:01:34) it was um 13 years ago now well will I (00:01:39) still be alive 13 years from now and it (00:01:42) seems like just a short period of time (00:01:44) so when you think about it it's quite um (00:01:49) dramatic but on the other hand from the (00:01:51) moment to moment and day to day it just (00:01:53) doesn't make any difference (00:01:56) yeah there's something about the number (00:01:58) 80 yeah I think (00:02:01) and of course we know it's just another (00:02:02) day and it's just a number but does (00:02:06) something change when you wake up and (00:02:09) your family and your friends celebrate (00:02:11) hey Gaba you're now 80 years old yeah (00:02:15) does it in some way change the way you (00:02:17) see yourself or or I guess reflect (00:02:20) differently on who you are and where you (00:02:22) are in your (00:02:23) life and most days I can say this and (00:02:26) not on every day for sure but it's a (00:02:29) kind of ease enter in my life even with (00:02:32) all that's going on in the world I'm (00:02:33) just sort of (00:02:35) more I don't struggle with the way (00:02:37) things are so much I may like them or (00:02:39) not like them I may react or not respond (00:02:41) or but there's not a struggle against (00:02:45) just the beingness of (00:02:48) things um I'm certainly noticing that (00:02:52) yeah and and uh people I had a visitor a (00:02:57) week ago who I hadn't seen for a few (00:02:59) years and she says youve changed and I (00:03:01) said oh yeah she say you've become (00:03:03) softer you know and um if that's true (00:03:07) it's it's good it's a sign of kind of (00:03:10) loosening (00:03:13) inside you used to work in paliative (00:03:16) care yeah and I think you're familiar (00:03:20) with the book by bronnie we the palive (00:03:22) care nurse five regrets of the dying (00:03:25) yeah what I thought would be (00:03:27) interesting today for our fourth convers (00:03:30) a on my podcast together yeah is to (00:03:33) maybe go through each of those five (00:03:34) regrets because I I just I'd love to (00:03:38) know from your perspective what each of (00:03:41) these regrets says yeah about where we (00:03:44) are who we are yeah what things were (00:03:48) important to us yeah and so the first of (00:03:51) those five regrets is I wish I had the (00:03:53) courage to live a life true to myself (00:03:56) not the life others expected of me yeah (00:04:00) and so let's keep in mind (00:04:03) that like when I used to work in Pala of (00:04:06) care which I did for seven years and (00:04:08) this nurse who wrote the book she's AUST (00:04:11) tralian and she wrote the book about 12 (00:04:13) years ago now they weren't talking about (00:04:16) people dying at old age they were mostly (00:04:18) it's about people dying before their (00:04:20) time MH and so the regrets that they had (00:04:24) um as their terminal illness usually (00:04:26) malignancy or perhaps chronic autoimmune (00:04:29) disease (00:04:30) um brought them to the end of their (00:04:34) physical (00:04:35) existence what did they regret and the (00:04:37) top one was I wish I had the courage to (00:04:40) live my own life rather than the one (00:04:41) that people expected of (00:04:44) me I would reframe (00:04:47) that because there's a deep truth in it (00:04:50) and as you know and perhaps we've talked (00:04:53) about from my point of view very often (00:04:56) the people that do develop chronic (00:04:58) illness are people that have their own (00:05:00) true s for the sake of being accepted to (00:05:03) others and that self-suppression has (00:05:05) deep physiological consequences on the (00:05:07) immune system on the nervous system on (00:05:08) the heart and so on so that that (00:05:11) self-suppression is also physiological (00:05:14) self annihilation in some (00:05:16) ways but when she talks about courage (00:05:20) that's a self- judgment they're saying (00:05:22) to themselves I wish it had the courage (00:05:25) as if it was a question of cowardice it (00:05:27) isn't it's a question of programming (00:05:30) like you and I are both parents we know (00:05:34) this no infant is born suppressing (00:05:36) themselves no infant enters the first (00:05:40) day on this Earth trying to please (00:05:43) anybody they're just being purely (00:05:45) themselves yeah expressing their Joy (00:05:48) when it's there expressing their upset (00:05:50) their distress when that's dominant but (00:05:52) they're purely themselves so that what (00:05:55) she calls courage or what these people (00:05:57) call courage of being myself is actually (00:06:00) a trauma imprint that for some reason (00:06:03) they learned early in life that to be (00:06:05) themselves is to court rejection by (00:06:09) their environment so it's not a lack of (00:06:12) Courage you can't talk about a (00:06:13) one-year-old lacking courage or a (00:06:15) two-year-old it's simply an (00:06:18) adaptation now later on they say courage (00:06:21) but really that's (00:06:23) a that courage is or the lack of it is a (00:06:26) shorthand for something happened to me (00:06:29) that I gave up my true self for the sake (00:06:32) of being accepted and that cost me (00:06:37) uh first of all it cost them in terms of (00:06:39) physical illness but also cost them in (00:06:41) terms of self-respect and and dignity (00:06:45) it's a major one yeah are you living a (00:06:48) life at the moment that's true to (00:06:51) yourself I am now um uh I I sense that I (00:06:56) have I believe that I am um (00:07:00) that doesn't mean every second I do you (00:07:02) know but on the whole I do and it feels (00:07:06) really good and I know you know I had (00:07:10) dinner last night and and and you were (00:07:11) telling me that you're finding (00:07:14) yourself far more self expressed and and (00:07:19) and comfortable with who you are than (00:07:21) you used to so that's the good news (00:07:24) people is that this is a process that (00:07:26) can continue for a lifetime yeah but (00:07:28) yeah um (00:07:32) I I really see that people who suppress (00:07:35) themselves really suffer (00:07:38) yeah so that first regret I wish I had (00:07:41) the courage to live a life true to (00:07:42) myself um I'm really glad you picked out (00:07:45) the word courage because that word also (00:07:47) stands out to me yeah it's very (00:07:49) interesting to use that words yeah um (00:07:52) well it's a self judgment isn't it it is (00:07:55) you know I could have done better I (00:07:57) should have had the courage is what that (00:07:59) kind of says (00:08:01) yeah it's interesting you said when when (00:08:03) you turned (00:08:05) 80 or as a consequence of you turning 80 (00:08:08) you realize that well 13 years ago you (00:08:10) gave it your medical practice yeah will (00:08:13) you be alive in 13 years that's very (00:08:16) striking yeah are you afraid of death (00:08:21) um in principle I'm not you know um but (00:08:26) I don't really know till I have to face (00:08:27) it I won't know how afraid I am until it (00:08:30) confronts me you know at this point I (00:08:34) feel healthy and I get to do what I want (00:08:36) to do (00:08:37) and I have Vigor and I have interests (00:08:40) and excitement and and love and and um (00:08:45) likes and dislikes and I'm quite alive (00:08:48) you (00:08:49) know what happens when I have to (00:08:51) confront the actuality of it I have no (00:08:54) idea how I'm going to respond so it's (00:08:58) sometimes I get fear around it I mean (00:09:00) there's I don't want to give this up I (00:09:01) don't want to give up this (00:09:03) life but other times I say well if I do (00:09:08) I've lived and it's been good and (00:09:10) there's not much to regret you know so (00:09:13) yes and no but I won't really know until (00:09:15) I'm up against (00:09:17) it you've spoken publicly before (00:09:22) about your um your Journeys with plant (00:09:26) medicine (00:09:27) yeah does that change anything (00:09:30) for you I guess or has that changed (00:09:32) anything in terms of how you may view (00:09:35) what happens at the end of human life (00:09:38) because people many people will say for (00:09:40) them it does change how they perceive (00:09:42) themselves how they perceive death how (00:09:44) they perceive what this experience of (00:09:47) life actually really is well (00:09:49) specifically as you're probably aware (00:09:52) they've done studies on Endo life (00:09:54) anxiety with Salos cybin so-called magic (00:09:57) mushrooms and um (00:10:01) people report spiritual experiences yeah (00:10:04) and people report a significant (00:10:07) abatement of anxiety they had on di (00:10:09) these are people who terminally ill and (00:10:12) uh nothing that the medical profession (00:10:14) could offer (00:10:17) to reverse the course of their fatal (00:10:21) Illness but they had much less anxiety (00:10:23) about dying as a result of those (00:10:26) spiritual (00:10:27) experiences that were induced by taking (00:10:29) them mushroom yeah uh for (00:10:32) me I've never faced death in that sense (00:10:36) when I think of some of my psych like (00:10:38) experiences and if in retrospect I allow (00:10:41) myself to sink into them I can say in (00:10:45) that state that would not be afraid of (00:10:48) death I'd say that there's a larger (00:10:51) reality than (00:10:54) the persistence or sensation of this (00:10:57) particular lung m (00:11:00) uh represents you know I would say that (00:11:02) if I project myself back into those (00:11:05) experiences again how I will face it (00:11:07) when it happens or when it becomes (00:11:12) inevitable um I don't know (00:11:15) yeah (00:11:17) society's view or this society's view of (00:11:21) people getting older yeah 80 seems to be (00:11:25) the age where we often expect people to (00:11:28) be doing less (00:11:30) you know being less mobile less vital (00:11:34) not everyone of course but but many you (00:11:37) seem to be someone who has (00:11:40) this love of life this Vigor this (00:11:43) message you want to share you seem to be (00:11:45) traveling all over the (00:11:47) globe at you know pretty regular (00:11:51) intervals you youve come to London for 4 (00:11:53) days you going help me do some teaching (00:11:55) with doctors tomorrow which is (00:11:56) incredible but a lot of 80-year-olds are (00:11:58) not doing that (00:12:00) yeah (00:12:01) right and the longevity space within (00:12:05) medicine has really exploded over the (00:12:07) last few (00:12:08) years people love talking about (00:12:10) longevity right and I think we're (00:12:14) missing something in our discussions (00:12:17) about longevity well I think there's a (00:12:19) couple of things what what do you think (00:12:20) we're missing I (00:12:22) think it depends what you mean by (00:12:24) longevous first of all right so yes some (00:12:27) people want to know how can I not (00:12:29) necessarily live longer but be (00:12:32) independent mobile vital as long as I (00:12:35) live so Health span versus lifespan yeah (00:12:37) and I get that yeah but there's a lot of (00:12:40) talk these days about extending lifespan (00:12:43) living to 150 and Beyond and all kinds (00:12:46) of crazy stuff right and I don't want to (00:12:48) be the I don't want to stand in the way (00:12:50) of human progress at (00:12:51) all my one of my phase is that in (00:12:55) Pursuit Of Living (00:12:58) longer are we missing something about (00:13:02) the Beauty and the essence of what life (00:13:04) really is life is finite the fact that (00:13:07) it's finite is what makes it so (00:13:10) beautiful yeah if we could live to 200 (00:13:14) yeah would we have even more of these (00:13:16) regrets because we'd keep taking life (00:13:18) for granted you know what I you're (00:13:21) talking my language because to tell you (00:13:24) the truth to coin a phrase all this (00:13:26) stuff about longevity bores me to death (00:13:28) you know um I just don't care you (00:13:33) know what really matters is what does (00:13:36) this moment bring us or what can we (00:13:38) bring to this moment you know let the (00:13:40) future take care of itself you know like (00:13:42) Jesus says take no thought for tomorrow (00:13:45) you know and um I really think that this (00:13:50) longevity movement is a sign of deep (00:13:52) social anxiety and especially you get (00:13:55) these rich people in California with (00:13:57) their (00:13:58) cryo technology of freezing the body (00:14:02) hoping that 100 years from now they'll (00:14:04) be able to unfrozen and there'll be (00:14:05) treatments for the you know it bores me (00:14:09) you know what really matters is for me (00:14:12) is what makes life meaningful and active (00:14:15) and engaged in the present moment and um (00:14:20) it's interesting in (00:14:22) English we talk about growing (00:14:25) older now that's a very telling phrase (00:14:28) because (00:14:30) in significant ways when we get older we (00:14:33) shrink you know like our (00:14:35) bodies our skin starts to Sag our (00:14:38) muscles are no longer as you (00:14:41) know Supple and strong as they used to (00:14:44) be so what does it mean to grow (00:14:47) older we could just say like you said (00:14:50) earlier get older which is just a (00:14:51) chronological progression but growing (00:14:54) older implies that this growth is (00:14:56) actually possible so in what sense can (00:14:58) we actually grow grow and I think (00:15:01) actually we can actually grow into the (00:15:03) present moment and and and growing in (00:15:05) our grow our appreciation for life and (00:15:09) what matters and and knowing what (00:15:11) doesn't matter and growing in wisdom (00:15:13) indigenous cultures they don't talk (00:15:16) about elderly they talk about Elders (00:15:18) yeah a huge difference yeah so um I (00:15:23) think there's (00:15:24) a natural reverence for age that senior (00:15:28) cultures would respect and modern (00:15:31) society kind of (00:15:34) um dismisses you know now do I wish that (00:15:37) my hair was blacker and more curly the (00:15:40) way it used to be yeah I do you know and (00:15:43) it wasn't gray and my hair wasn't (00:15:45) thinning at the top and I sure I wish (00:15:47) that (00:15:49) but H at the same time I would not going (00:15:52) to be as unconscious as I was yeah when (00:15:56) my hair was blacker and curlier you know (00:15:59) yeah this is such an interesting point (00:16:01) I've spoken to several menopause experts (00:16:07) on the show oh yeah over the past (00:16:09) years and I remember when doing some (00:16:11) research on one of the conversations I (00:16:12) came across research showing that in (00:16:15) cultures where women are revered as they (00:16:19) get older yeah their wisdom is respected (00:16:22) they're seen as really important parts (00:16:25) of the community right those cultures (00:16:27) report less menopausal symptoms isn't (00:16:31) that interesting I just so I'm not (00:16:33) misinterpreted I want to be really clear (00:16:36) I'm not saying that that means that all (00:16:38) menopausal symptoms would go away if (00:16:40) that was the case I just find it (00:16:42) interesting that when the cultural view (00:16:46) of growing old is different yeah we (00:16:50) perceive ourselves as having I don't (00:16:53) know a different symptom profile if if I (00:16:56) can put it like that and and and and the (00:16:57) degree of suffering is different (00:16:59) so that maybe they have symptoms or (00:17:02) maybe they have certain features but the (00:17:05) suffering is not experienced the same (00:17:08) way please expand on that because I (00:17:09) think some people will go what do you (00:17:11) mean if you're either getting symptoms (00:17:12) or you're not getting symptoms explain (00:17:14) what you mean by perception of you know (00:17:17) the the suffering essentially well I was (00:17:19) talking to somebody else about this (00:17:20) today so in as you as you and I know in (00:17:25) Western medicine we kind of medicalize (00:17:27) everything and so we talk about (00:17:29) premenstrual syndrome not which PMS it's (00:17:35) a syndrome it's a medical entity what is (00:17:38) it really is that under the impact of (00:17:40) hormonal changes women get more (00:17:43) sensitized so they might have more (00:17:45) physical pain and more (00:17:49) upset but we can see that as (00:17:52) pathological or we could actually say (00:17:54) that it's a time of (00:17:58) truthtellah ize them to things that are (00:18:00) not functioning in in their lives which (00:18:03) the rest of the time they are curated to (00:18:05) acous with and to put up with yeah but (00:18:08) the menstrual ferment in their bodies (00:18:11) makes it less tolerable so instead of (00:18:13) seeing that as a pathology we could see (00:18:15) it as a time of insight and what if they (00:18:18) actually listen to their bodies and (00:18:21) listen to what their body saying know to (00:18:24) that the rest of the month they kind of (00:18:27) suppress then that could be seen as a (00:18:29) time of wisdom rather than a time of (00:18:32) suffering so (00:18:33) the the physical things are there but (00:18:37) but it doesn't have to be experienced as (00:18:39) suffering could be experienced as a time (00:18:41) of (00:18:48) truthtotable menopause as well yeah this (00:18:51) kind of speaks to the second regret (00:18:53) which is I wish I hadn't worked so hard (00:18:55) yeah (00:18:57) and what I mean by that (00:19:00) is I agree (00:19:04) that for many women (00:19:07) yeah and I can think of so many patients (00:19:10) like this them their hormonal (00:19:14) symptoms we actually showing them that (00:19:18) the way you're currently living is not (00:19:20) in harmony with your body exactly now of (00:19:23) course sometimes people struggle to make (00:19:25) change it's hard to make change maybe (00:19:26) their life is Mega stressful and at that (00:19:29) moment they can't change it for whatever (00:19:30) reason and I totally I empathize with (00:19:33) that I I understand yeah but for some (00:19:36) people who are able to it's in sometimes (00:19:40) it's one of the best things that has (00:19:41) happened to them yeah now this thing of (00:19:43) I wish I hadn't worked so (00:19:45) hard that's an interesting one because I (00:19:48) wish I hadn't worked so hard and what do (00:19:50) I mean by that (00:19:52) like like (00:19:54) uh speaking for myself and I don't know (00:19:57) if this is true for you but I became a (00:19:59) physician for some really good reasons (00:20:02) one of them was I genuinely wanted to (00:20:04) help suffering humanity and I thought (00:20:06) medicine is a (00:20:10) perfect pathway through which I could (00:20:13) help people that's genuine and I meant (00:20:16) it I (00:20:18) also chose a profession where I was (00:20:20) fairly confident of making a decent (00:20:22) living so I could support (00:20:24) a a life for myself and my family that's (00:20:28) legitimate (00:20:31) but those reasons don't make you work (00:20:32) too hard they make you work hard but (00:20:35) they don't make you work too hard what (00:20:38) makes you work too hard and that's what (00:20:39) these people are saying is you're driven (00:20:42) by something that you're not even aware (00:20:44) of and what I wasn't aware of when I (00:20:46) went to medical school and when I was a (00:20:49) physician for decades is how driven I (00:20:53) was to justify my existence in the world (00:20:56) and to prove her that I was important (00:20:58) and worthwhile (00:20:59) and so on and that had to do with the (00:21:02) loss of those that confidence owing to (00:21:04) Early Childhood trauma and so the it's (00:21:07) not a question nobody says I wish I W (00:21:10) hadn't worked hard to achieve something (00:21:13) in life you have to work hard they're (00:21:15) saying I wish I worked too hard and that (00:21:18) to part the Too part comes from being (00:21:22) driven by unconscious needs to validate (00:21:25) Your Existence where why should any (00:21:27) human being have to validate their (00:21:29) existence you know and so that's what (00:21:32) they're saying and when you're driven to (00:21:34) work too hard you actually ignore what (00:21:37) matters and what matters is um what you (00:21:41) were telling me last night about how (00:21:43) much it matters for you to spend time (00:21:45) with your family so every summer you (00:21:47) take a bunch of weeks away from your (00:21:49) podcast and you just spend time enjoying (00:21:52) your kids and and and your wife and your (00:21:55) family and I didn't do that I for me was (00:21:59) very hard to even take holidays I always (00:22:01) felt they had to keep working if (00:22:03) somebody was in pregnant my God what if (00:22:06) I would miss their delivery like the (00:22:07) baby couldn't enter the world without me (00:22:09) you know so that drivenness is what (00:22:11) makes people work too hard and so not a (00:22:15) matter of working hard it's a matter of (00:22:16) working too hard and where does that (00:22:18) come from a gain that comes from (00:22:19) childhood trauma a lot of doctors and I (00:22:23) have several friends like this they (00:22:25) don't take their full allowance of (00:22:29) annual (00:22:29) leave sounds like you may have been (00:22:32) similar I had that tendency yeah yeah (00:22:35) and often people will (00:22:37) say and I have a friend who says this (00:22:40) yeah but my patients need me no they (00:22:42) don't need them they need medical help (00:22:45) yeah but I think we have to ask (00:22:47) ourselves and this is very very common (00:22:49) in medicine actually I'm sure it's (00:22:51) common in other um professions as well (00:22:54) yeah it's interesting when you don't (00:22:56) take your full allowance of annual leave (00:22:58) that your contract entitles you to it's (00:23:01) often paid time off right it's part of (00:23:03) your job when you're not taking it of (00:23:07) course there can be reasons for that (00:23:09) there can be reasonable reasons there (00:23:10) can be work reasons but if you're not I (00:23:12) think you I think it may be worth (00:23:14) reflecting on some of those (00:23:17) underlying you know those real drivers (00:23:20) of that well it occurs to me that what (00:23:23) your friend is actually saying is not (00:23:25) that my patients need me but I need my (00:23:27) patients yeah to feel okay and when I'm (00:23:31) not working to help them I don't know (00:23:34) who I am and I don't feel comfortable (00:23:36) myself so I need them now that means get (00:23:39) it to a therapist and deal with it and (00:23:41) and not only that even Your Capacity to (00:23:44) help your patience over time will be (00:23:46) eroded toally by the way you're (00:23:48) stressing yourself and you're not taking (00:23:50) care of yourself and Physicians are (00:23:52) notoriously programmed to ignore (00:23:55) themselves and there was a very (00:23:56) interesting study that I mentioned in (00:23:58) the book The Myth of normal they looked (00:24:00) at the fraying of the (00:24:04) chromosomes um of people and you know (00:24:09) when we're born we were born with (00:24:11) certain structures called telome and (00:24:13) telome are DNA structures at the end of (00:24:16) our chromosomes and their fraying and (00:24:19) their shortening is a mark of aging and (00:24:21) of stress and they looked at the the (00:24:23) telome of medical residents compared to (00:24:26) other people their age they age f faster (00:24:29) they Fray (00:24:30) faster and so Physicians are driven to (00:24:34) actually (00:24:36) um not spare themselves and to literally (00:24:41) consume themselves in the work in the (00:24:43) long term that may make you a very (00:24:45) popular and very successful doctor in (00:24:47) the long term it's going to be at the (00:24:49) expense of your marriage and of your (00:24:51) children and of your own mental and (00:24:53) physical (00:24:55) health for me if I look at that (00:24:57) situation and I (00:24:59) reflect on (00:25:01) society and (00:25:03) culture what I see these days is a (00:25:07) very it's very me focused culture where (00:25:11) Community has been gradually eroded out (00:25:15) yeah and therefore if we think about a (00:25:18) human being a human being needs to feel (00:25:20) that there of value to other people we (00:25:23) need that (00:25:25) it's in our (00:25:27) tribes you know 50,000 years ago we (00:25:31) would have felt of value because we (00:25:34) would have a role and other people would (00:25:36) see that role they would benefit from it (00:25:38) and we would benefit from the things (00:25:40) they were doing you know whether it's (00:25:41) someone's hunting someone's Gathering (00:25:43) someone's putting the fire on whatever (00:25:44) it might (00:25:45) be in this me Focus culture where it's (00:25:48) all me me me and what are my needs and (00:25:50) what do I need to do and how can I (00:25:52) better (00:25:54) myself I feel that we often don't feel a (00:25:58) Val to others we don't feel (00:26:00) important and so it makes sense that in (00:26:03) that culture you might overwork you (00:26:06) might keep pushing yourself because if (00:26:08) you're not working and feeling important (00:26:11) there then actually you may not have (00:26:14) that sensation in any other aspects of (00:26:16) your life well if well if you weren't (00:26:19) given the um it's very (00:26:22) simple if in early childhood you given (00:26:25) the sense that you're valued just (00:26:27) because you existed (00:26:29) your parents welcome you and validate (00:26:30) you and value you and and celebrate you (00:26:33) just because you (00:26:34) are then you don't have to keep proving (00:26:36) it afterwards MH but if you don't get (00:26:38) that sense then you have to be important (00:26:41) yeah so that sense of needing to be (00:26:43) important has to come from missing out (00:26:45) on being valued for who you are or being (00:26:47) only valued for your achievements you (00:26:50) know you're valued like look my parents (00:26:53) blessed their souls but they valued my (00:26:56) intelligence you know and so (00:26:59) so a lot of my Persona was caught up in (00:27:03) being smart and and proving my value (00:27:06) that way well it's good to be (00:27:09) intelligent but your value should (00:27:11) doesn't depend on or shouldn't depend on (00:27:13) any one quality whether you're cute or (00:27:17) cuddly or handsome or successful or good (00:27:20) at sports or smart in school any of that (00:27:24) your value is (00:27:25) intrinsic inate inherent cuz a human (00:27:29) being in a society as you say it tends (00:27:32) to Value people for what they do and so (00:27:35) that can become very very addictive but (00:27:37) again going back to your friend who says (00:27:39) my parent my patients need me and you (00:27:42) think about it and I'm not accusing them (00:27:44) of anything but they're not realizing (00:27:47) just egotistical that statement is is as (00:27:50) if it dependent on them their patients (00:27:53) need good medical care but they don't (00:27:56) need him or her or them specifically (00:28:02) which means that they should be able to (00:28:04) take care of themselves as long as they (00:28:06) make sure that when they're not there MH (00:28:08) their patients are receiving the care (00:28:12) that they need so it's not about us and (00:28:14) I used to think it was always about me (00:28:16) if I'm not there for the delivery of (00:28:18) this particular Woman's baby oh my God (00:28:20) you know like as if it all depended on (00:28:24) me there's probably a control issue (00:28:25) there as well isn't there that I I know (00:28:27) how I would do it exactly I need to be (00:28:29) there cuz I know how I would manage this (00:28:31) birth and that sort of stuff which is an (00:28:33) inability to let go exact someone else (00:28:36) can probably do this as well yeah or if (00:28:38) they can't do it as well so be it you (00:28:40) know so be it you know yeah as I was (00:28:44) walking to the studio this morning (00:28:47) thinking about our (00:28:49) conversation the word impressive kept (00:28:52) coming up for (00:28:53) me and I'm being reflecting on the word (00:28:56) impressive because again I think (00:28:59) culturally we we think it's a good thing (00:29:01) to impress others okay that bit of work (00:29:04) you did is impressive MH but actually if (00:29:07) you if you really unpick impressive or (00:29:11) certainly if I do (00:29:14) it it implies to me and maybe this is my (00:29:18) own bias because this is what I have (00:29:20) done for much of my life yeah I've (00:29:23) changed who I am in (00:29:26) order to impress others yeah I didn't (00:29:30) feel I impressed others by being myself (00:29:33) yeah I impressed them by changing yeah (00:29:36) so what comes up for you when you hear (00:29:39) the word impressive have we got it wrong (00:29:42) has it (00:29:43) been you know has it been taken to mean (00:29:46) something it's not like how how do you (00:29:47) see the word impressive (00:29:49) H well (00:29:52) [Music] (00:29:53) um impressive first of all has to do (00:29:57) with what it has to do with our impact (00:29:59) on other people how others see (00:30:02) us (00:30:04) so if I can just be myself and express (00:30:07) my own truth and not drive myself into (00:30:12) activities (00:30:14) that are not good for me and people are (00:30:18) impressed well that's (00:30:19) great but if my intention is to impress (00:30:22) other people if I need for me to make a (00:30:27) certain impression in somebody body (00:30:28) else's mind then where am I living that (00:30:31) I'm living in their minds rather than in (00:30:33) myself so the question is where do I (00:30:36) want to live here or in your mind you (00:30:38) know and uh our society is so (00:30:43) um addicted to people being impressive (00:30:47) in the minds of others that means that (00:30:50) we live in the minds of others don't (00:30:52) more than we live in ourselves so if I (00:30:55) can if you can be yourself and find out (00:30:58) if I find that impressive that's great (00:31:00) but you're not doing it to impress me (00:31:02) you're just doing it because that's (00:31:03) you're expressing who you are if I'm (00:31:06) impressed great if I'm not (00:31:09) impressed that doesn't take anything (00:31:11) away from you but to the degree that we (00:31:13) depend on impressing others we're (00:31:17) robbing (00:31:18) ourselves so that's how I see that word (00:31:21) just taking a quick break to give a (00:31:23) shout out to Vivo barefoot shoes now (00:31:26) I've been a huge fan of Vivo Barefoot (00:31:28) for over 10 years now well before they (00:31:31) started supporting my podcast they are (00:31:33) the only shoes that I wear and they (00:31:35) really have had a huge impact on my own (00:31:37) life and the lives of many of my (00:31:40) patients you see when people start (00:31:42) wearing Minimalist Shoes like vivos you (00:31:45) can see improvements in things like back (00:31:47) pain hip pain knee pain foot pain even (00:31:51) things like planta fasciitis can often (00:31:53) get better and scientific research shows (00:31:56) us that just wearing Vios for 4 months (00:31:59) or so improves the strength in your feet (00:32:02) by over 60% which is absolutely (00:32:05) incredible one thing people don't (00:32:07) realize about these shoes is just how (00:32:09) flexible they are which allows your feet (00:32:11) to do what your feet naturally want to (00:32:13) do rather than the shoe dictating your (00:32:16) foot's movement Vivo Barefoot are giving (00:32:19) my audience a 15% off onetime codes when (00:32:23) you make your first order and they make (00:32:25) it really easy for you to give them a (00:32:27) try they give a 100 day trial for new (00:32:30) customers so if you don't like them you (00:32:33) just send them back for a full refund (00:32:35) I'm a huge fan I really hope you take (00:32:37) advantage of this offer to get your 15% (00:32:40) off codes all you need to do is go to (00:32:43) Vivo (00:32:57) barfoot.co.nz my emotions yeah which is (00:33:00) I guess not dissimilar to the first one (00:33:02) about living a life that's true to (00:33:04) yourself no and it again it again (00:33:07) there's the word courage that shows up (00:33:09) and these people are judging (00:33:13) themselves and more interesting way to (00:33:15) put it is why is it that I didn't (00:33:17) express my feelings you know now here's (00:33:20) the thing um again in my writing in the (00:33:24) MTH of normal I quote this great (00:33:26) neuroscientist who died in his mid 70s (00:33:30) of cancer a few years ago those of us (00:33:32) who knew him still mourn him his name (00:33:35) was Dr Yak pank p n k s p p he was uh (00:33:40) from the Baltic states whether he was (00:33:42) Estonian I think he was but maybe latian (00:33:46) you know and he was an effective (00:33:49) neuroscientist so he studied the (00:33:52) neurobiology of (00:33:55) emotions and wrote a book called The (00:33:57) archaeology of the Mind it's one of the (00:33:59) seal books of modern science and he (00:34:02) pointed out that we share certain (00:34:04) emotional circuits with other (00:34:06) animals so we have circuit and he (00:34:09) capitalized these circuits these systems (00:34:11) so the c a r e the care system MH and (00:34:16) there was a system for (00:34:18) anger system for (00:34:20) fear for lust for playfulness for joy in (00:34:25) other words for seeking which is (00:34:29) curiosity um (00:34:31) grief and we share these brain circuits (00:34:34) with other mammals in other words these (00:34:38) emotions are not luxuries they are (00:34:41) emotionally I should say they are (00:34:43) evolutionally determined aspects of who (00:34:46) we are (00:34:48) so if you take the care (00:34:51) [Music] (00:34:52) system it's essential because without (00:34:55) care the Maman infant doesn't survive MH (00:34:59) there's got to be something in the (00:35:00) parent brain that drives that parent to (00:35:02) take care of the infant and something (00:35:05) that's in the infant's brain that impels (00:35:08) them to connect with the parent in order (00:35:09) to be taken care of that's just (00:35:11) evolutionary biology (00:35:14) so we have all these emotional systems (00:35:17) anger is one of them um as I mentioned (00:35:20) fear grief or (00:35:23) others and children one of the emotional (00:35:25) needs of children when I studied (00:35:28) and invest you know and interviewed (00:35:31) experts on Child Development one of the (00:35:33) things I learned and write about is that (00:35:35) one of the needs of children for healthy (00:35:37) brain development is the freedom to (00:35:40) experience and express all the emotions (00:35:43) that come up for them that's just (00:35:45) necessary for health um (00:35:51) now what happens in this Society where a (00:35:54) lot of parents get the message that (00:35:56) certain emotions on the part of their (00:35:58) their kids are not acceptable so you (00:36:00) know a kid might experience a loss like (00:36:02) a dog might die or grandpa might die and (00:36:05) the child is upset and the parent can't (00:36:08) handle the child's grief so snap out of (00:36:10) it it's just a dog or or you get over it (00:36:15) people die you know um or a child (00:36:18) experiences anger uh because you didn't (00:36:20) give them a cookie before dinner you (00:36:22) know and a 2-year-old fors a tantrum and (00:36:24) you can't handle it I think you know (00:36:27) I've talked about this before (00:36:28) then the child gets the message that in (00:36:31) order to be acceptable to the parent (00:36:33) they have to suppress their emotions so (00:36:35) when these people talk about that and (00:36:38) that suppression of emotion as I've (00:36:40) often made the case with you and in my (00:36:42) books actually under mying health and (00:36:44) and our physiology and our immune system (00:36:47) so when these people in their (00:36:49) dying weeks regret not having had the (00:36:54) courage to express their emotions what (00:36:56) they're really talking about is that (00:36:58) long time before when they were children (00:37:02) they were forced to suppress their (00:37:04) emotions for the sake of being accepted (00:37:07) yeah and now they regret it because they (00:37:11) they sense that they were forced to (00:37:13) abandon themselves and so again I would (00:37:16) remove the word (00:37:17) courage and ask instead of judging them (00:37:20) for lacking courage I would say what (00:37:24) happened to them because again no infant (00:37:27) left lacks the capacity to express their (00:37:29) emotions (00:37:31) yeah so if they lose it it's cuz they (00:37:33) learned that they had (00:37:35) to it terms of something practical (00:37:38) around this point gabo (00:37:41) if if there's any parents (00:37:44) listening and their kids let's (00:37:47) say sometimes get angry or have a (00:37:51) tantrum whatever it might be yeah of (00:37:54) course there is a certain conditioning (00:37:56) in our certainly in Western Society (00:37:59) about what one should do about that yeah (00:38:03) given your view in terms of what is (00:38:05) important for a child and what you've (00:38:07) just said what would you encourage a (00:38:10) parent to do when their child is I was (00:38:13) going to use the word playing up but (00:38:15) that's a ridiculous term because playing (00:38:17) up is a societal construct a child is (00:38:21) just expressing emotions we're calling (00:38:22) it playing up because we don't like you (00:38:25) know what it's doing or what the people (00:38:28) next door we're thinking or whatever it (00:38:29) might be right the North American drum (00:38:31) is acting out acting out yeah do they (00:38:33) use that phrase here yeah they do they (00:38:35) use this phrase H yeah so so going back (00:38:37) to that (00:38:39) um the parent who may be (00:38:42) struggling but wants to be a better (00:38:44) parent wants to go actually you know (00:38:46) what gab I really want to make sure that (00:38:48) I allow my child to express their (00:38:50) emotions yeah do you have any advice to (00:38:52) me what would you say to them no I do (00:38:54) well (00:38:55) so you know there's um (00:38:58) we can talk about three modes of (00:39:00) parenting one is the permissive (00:39:02) parenting where you allow any behavior (00:39:04) and you don't interfere you know that's (00:39:07) not that's the worst thing you can do (00:39:09) kids needs to but that is allowing them (00:39:11) to express themselves yeah but there's a (00:39:16) difference they might Express themselves (00:39:18) by hitting their sibling for example and (00:39:20) you don't allow that parents need to (00:39:23) kids need to feel that somebody's in (00:39:24) charge yeah parenting is not a democracy (00:39:27) it's a hierarchy (00:39:28) um in a hierarchy there's a dominant (00:39:31) Force the parent dominates the child not (00:39:34) to exploit or to suppress but to nurture (00:39:38) and to support you know so that you know (00:39:42) you live in Manchester and I don't know (00:39:44) how cold it gets in Manchester but if (00:39:46) you have a one-year-old child they don't (00:39:48) get to vote on whether they get to crawl (00:39:50) outside in the wintertime in Manchester (00:39:52) you know naked you know the parents says (00:39:55) no you don't go outside naked you know (00:39:56) you have to get put clothes on that's (00:39:58) just how it is it's a hierarchy it's not (00:39:59) a democracy the one-year-old doesn't get (00:40:01) a vote okay and being going into the (00:40:04) slush and the snow in the middle of (00:40:06) December or whenever um so that's (00:40:09) permissive parenting that's not very (00:40:10) good U then there's repressive parenting (00:40:13) which some experts that we've talked (00:40:14) about (00:40:17) Advocate that's authoritarian (00:40:20) parenting in between him is the golden (00:40:22) mean so there's permissive parenting (00:40:25) here authoritarian parenting here then (00:40:27) there's authoritative parenting in the (00:40:29) middle authoritative parenting is I'm in (00:40:31) charge I know it's good for you um I'm (00:40:34) the authority um so I know what to do (00:40:37) with you so if a child is upset you say (00:40:40) oh you're upset you know you're angry (00:40:43) with Mommy momy wouldn't let you have a (00:40:45) cookie before dinner yeah you're really (00:40:47) upset about that yeah well come here I (00:40:49) know how you feel in other words you (00:40:51) validate the emotion you don't punish (00:40:54) the child for it and you hold the child (00:40:56) cuz the child needs to learn Le that (00:40:58) they can go through these difficult (00:40:59) emotions and get through them and still (00:41:03) be loved and still be loved yeah now (00:41:05) that doesn't mean you let them pull the (00:41:07) cat's tail or to break the break the (00:41:10) glass you know smash the furniture or (00:41:14) hit their sibling but it doesn't mean (00:41:16) you validate the emotions and you hold (00:41:17) them and then they learn ah and and (00:41:21) actually and when they it's also age (00:41:25) specific like there's no point saying to (00:41:27) an one and a halfy old Let's find let's (00:41:31) express it through words they don't have (00:41:32) the words but to 5-year-old you can say (00:41:36) can we find some words for your anger in (00:41:38) other words you can teach them to (00:41:39) express their emotions in ways that are (00:41:43) um socially appropriate yeah so at any (00:41:47) age you have to be age appropriate but (00:41:49) fundamentally you validate the emotions (00:41:52) and you hold the child and you make them (00:41:55) feel that you can have this emotions I (00:41:56) don't want you to behaving that way but (00:41:58) you can have the emotion and I'm not (00:41:59) going to reject you for it it's not that (00:42:01) hard and people do it intuitively (00:42:04) sometimes yeah and the impact of (00:42:06) parenting like (00:42:08) that will be felt for the rest of that (00:42:13) child's life well absolutely and that's (00:42:15) the key isn't it you look look around (00:42:17) Society it's very very hard to not make (00:42:19) the case that we have the set up (00:42:23) Society so that those early years are (00:42:27) where the kids get good nutrition they (00:42:29) have calm environments they have present (00:42:33) parents you know I'm always shocked at (00:42:35) the amount of leave that um people in (00:42:39) America get or mothers get in jobs in (00:42:42) America I think one of my (00:42:44) friends Partners in America got two (00:42:46) weeks off oh which which I I I what two (00:42:49) weeks off after giving birth well when I (00:42:51) researched the myth of normal I found (00:42:53) that 25% of women in the states go back (00:42:56) to work within 2 weeks of giving birth (00:43:00) which 25% of women now needless to say (00:43:02) this is both economically and racially (00:43:05) determined but it means that it's a (00:43:08) massive abandonment of the child yeah (00:43:10) because en from the point of view of the (00:43:12) development of enzymes in the child the (00:43:14) child's physiological unfoldment (00:43:16) psychological security they need the (00:43:18) mother for many many many many months (00:43:21) and you try and take an infant away from (00:43:23) a an (00:43:25) orangutang at two weeks and see what (00:43:28) happens yeah you know and uh in (00:43:32) fact they've done some very cruel (00:43:34) studies with monkeys that shows the (00:43:37) impact of maternal deprivation at those (00:43:39) early ages you know studies (00:43:43) that are terrible to read about yeah and (00:43:46) they prove what they prove that love and (00:43:48) contact and connection is important (00:43:50) something we should have known all along (00:43:52) but the point is that that's statistic (00:43:55) that 25% of women have to go back to (00:43:57) work within two weeks of work within two (00:44:00) weeks of giving birth it's a massive (00:44:02) abandonment of children the impact of (00:44:05) which will show up in their mental and (00:44:06) physical health decades on yeah and then (00:44:09) they wonder why there's so many (00:44:14) problems tomorrow is the yearly (00:44:16) prescribing lifestyle medicine course (00:44:18) that I've been running uh with a (00:44:20) colleague Dr a panga since 2018 and of (00:44:23) course you're going to be the guest (00:44:24) speaker tomorrow and I'm I'm really (00:44:25) excited that we're going to be able to (00:44:28) communicate with doctors and share your (00:44:30) work and how they can bring your work (00:44:33) into their practice it's really really (00:44:36) exciting one of the things I'm (00:44:39) [Music] (00:44:40) hoping you're going to be able to share (00:44:43) with the audience (00:44:44) tomorrow is what I think is the biggest (00:44:48) hole in medical school training if you'd (00:44:51) asked me 5 years ago I may have said oh (00:44:54) nutrition and sleep and we need to teach (00:44:56) doctors about the import s of this stuff (00:44:58) and we do yeah but if I had to choose (00:45:02) one thing that I think is the biggest (00:45:06) hole in medical training (00:45:08) today for me it's that doctors a lot of (00:45:13) doctors leave medical school without an (00:45:15) understanding that our emotions oh I see (00:45:18) what you're saying yeah that the (00:45:20) way we think holding on to anger (00:45:24) resentment not being able to forgive and (00:45:26) move on (00:45:28) I really don't feel within medicine (00:45:29) there's an understanding that this can (00:45:32) contribute to ill health yeah it's such (00:45:36) a gap and um I think both you and I have (00:45:39) had to discover it not as a consequence (00:45:43) but despite our medical education yeah (00:45:45) and uh when you're in practice and you I (00:45:48) mean as a family physician um we do have (00:45:52) an advantage over specialist colleagues (00:45:54) in that we know people before they get (00:45:56) sick yeah so we get to see who gets sick (00:45:58) and uh I couldn't help but notice that (00:46:01) people's emotional lives are so (00:46:03) intertwined with the physiological (00:46:05) health (00:46:07) and as you suggest nobody in medical (00:46:10) school told me that it's it's a huge gap (00:46:14) it it it also has to do with how we (00:46:15) relate to ourselves by the way because (00:46:17) the way doctors are trained is very (00:46:19) often very stressful and very um almost (00:46:23) traumatic in significant ways so that in (00:46:27) that's why I mentioned the word (00:46:28) self-care because in being trained to (00:46:30) stoically ignore ourselves we also are (00:46:34) dismissing the importance of emotions in (00:46:36) our clients yeah so that I wish there (00:46:39) was more emphasis in medical school on (00:46:42) dealing with our own stuff yeah for sure (00:46:46) and in conjunction with that therefore (00:46:48) the awareness of the importance of (00:46:50) people's emotional lives yeah and and (00:46:53) what's really interesting here is that (00:46:55) some of the great pioneers of medic (00:46:58) have known this all along and they've (00:47:00) said it hundreds of years ago (00:47:03) well je Martin shco who first described (00:47:06) multiple sclerosis said that this is (00:47:08) related to stress and grief and uh it is (00:47:12) statistically and according to studies (00:47:14) since then but he just saw it he didn't (00:47:16) you know and uh there's a Great British (00:47:18) surgeon James padet yeah you know padet (00:47:21) disease and he operated in on women with (00:47:23) breast cancer and he said that breast (00:47:25) cancer is indubitably related to (00:47:27) emotional factors that is so evident (00:47:29) that it's hard to ignore and so these (00:47:32) great pioneers said this and their (00:47:35) teachings have been completely ignored (00:47:37) yeah let's be really clear this is such (00:47:39) a delicate area for people (00:47:41) because many people perceive that as (00:47:44) fault and as blame I know you don't mean (00:47:47) it like that I don't mean it like that (00:47:48) when I talk about it either yeah but (00:47:50) often it's like what are you saying that (00:47:52) I did this to myself right you must have (00:47:54) had that before people must have said (00:47:56) that yeah yeah just just clarify that (00:47:59) for them please well really we've been (00:48:02) talking about it that the um suppression (00:48:06) of (00:48:07) emotion nobody's born with it and it's (00:48:11) not a lack of courage or wisdom it's a (00:48:14) programmed response to Childhood (00:48:16) experience so people have got the (00:48:18) message be before they uh had any choice (00:48:22) in the matter that if they are truly (00:48:25) themselves if they express who they are (00:48:26) their emot tions just like we've been (00:48:28) talking about they won't be accepted so (00:48:32) that's a programming that people um are (00:48:35) engrained in in their Early Childhood (00:48:37) how is that their fault yeah it's just (00:48:39) the way they adapted to the environment (00:48:41) necessarily as a matter of fact it was (00:48:44) an inevitable and unavoidable adaptation (00:48:47) because the alternative of being (00:48:49) rejected by their families or their (00:48:51) milar was not acceptable to a small (00:48:53) child so therefore Nobody Does this to (00:48:56) themselves (00:48:57) in any conscious or deliberate (00:49:00) sense what I can tell you is that when (00:49:04) people are diagnosed and they become (00:49:06) aware of these Dynamics they find that (00:49:08) liberating yeah so uh in the methon (00:49:12) normal I quote the um the American (00:49:14) singer shell Crow who was diagnosed with (00:49:17) breast cancer and she said that before (00:49:19) the diagnosis I was always pleasing (00:49:21) others and not expressing myself and (00:49:24) there was always a voice in my head that (00:49:26) I'm wrong and (00:49:28) I have to adjust myself to other (00:49:29) people's expect I'm paraphrasing her but (00:49:31) she but she said I've learned (00:49:33) differently now and now I'm really (00:49:35) paying attention to myself so again (00:49:37) that's this idea of disease as teacher (00:49:38) now Cheryl Crow wasn't born like that (00:49:41) and she didn't choose to be that way (00:49:43) that was her response to her upbringing (00:49:45) so nobody's being faulted here but we (00:49:47) are saying people if you allow that (00:49:50) disease to wake you up and to teach you (00:49:53) something you might have a whole lot (00:49:55) better life than you could have imagined (00:49:57) yeah I think this is really really (00:50:00) interesting we can first of all make the (00:50:03) case to people that emotions matter the (00:50:06) express the the ability to express your (00:50:08) emotions is important if you repress (00:50:11) them yeah it may well have some quite (00:50:14) severe physical consequences yeah so (00:50:16) let's say that a doctor accepts that (00:50:19) goes okay so what do I do with that well (00:50:24) what do doctors do with it well here's (00:50:26) the (00:50:29) thing it depends how you're oriented (00:50:31) like I'm kind of psychologically (00:50:33) oriented I've always been I've always (00:50:35) been interested in it um so for me it (00:50:38) was a (00:50:39) natural movement from Strictly focusing (00:50:43) on the physical symptoms to dealing with (00:50:45) the whole person another physician May (00:50:49) recognize the value of this but not have (00:50:51) the orientation to deal with it but at (00:50:53) least they can say to their clients (00:50:55) listen there's a lot of information so (00:50:58) when you come in with your rheumato (00:50:59) arthritis or your multiple sclerosis or (00:51:01) your chronic eczema or chronic migraines (00:51:05) or irritable ball syndrome or (00:51:08) inflammatory ball disease or whatever (00:51:10) you happen to present with there's a lot (00:51:12) of information now a lot of scientific (00:51:14) information information that uh shows (00:51:18) the connection between actually in fact (00:51:20) the unity of mind and body and the (00:51:23) inextricable relationship between the (00:51:25) immune system and emotions and so on I'm (00:51:28) not myself trained in that I'm going to (00:51:31) deal with the physical aspects of (00:51:32) illness I'm going to prescribe for you (00:51:35) the anti-inflammatories or the immune (00:51:38) suppressants or the steroids whatever (00:51:41) you happen to need to mitigate the (00:51:43) symptoms but can I send you to somebody (00:51:45) so you can talk about this stuff would (00:51:47) that interest you you know so you can do (00:51:50) that so we're not necessarily talking (00:51:52) about every doctor having to become an (00:51:54) expert on this but at least they should (00:51:56) be a aware of it so they can steer (00:51:58) people to a broader approach to their (00:52:01) illness number one number two there's (00:52:03) certain simple things any doctor can ask (00:52:06) like one of my books when the body says (00:52:09) no that's the title um and in the myid (00:52:12) of normal there's a chapter called but (00:52:14) before the body says no you can ask your (00:52:16) client it's a very simple question where (00:52:18) in your life are you not saying (00:52:20) no who doesn't know that wants to be (00:52:23) said but you're not saying it for the (00:52:25) sake of pleasing others can you just (00:52:27) consider that one because that simple (00:52:30) issue of not saying no can play Havoc (00:52:33) with your health because if you're not (00:52:35) saying no when when you when you're (00:52:39) wanting to say no you're actually (00:52:41) suppressing yourself and then you're (00:52:44) taking on more stress and more burden so (00:52:46) those simple questions any doctor can (00:52:48) ask so it's not as complicated as all (00:52:51) that yeah but the point is the first (00:52:54) step is just to be aware of the (00:52:56) connection that mentioned between (00:52:58) emotions and (00:52:59) Physiology then if the physician wants (00:53:02) to take on a deeper study of it they can (00:53:04) if they don't at least they can guide (00:53:07) people to to to to to explore that (00:53:10) connection somewhere else yeah (00:53:11) completely agree thank you yeah fourth (00:53:14) regret I wish I stayed in touch with my (00:53:17) friends yeah well what we're talking (00:53:21) there is and it goes back to the others (00:53:24) about working too hard you know for (00:53:26) example um what are what are they (00:53:29) discussing there is the need for (00:53:31) attachment for connection for (00:53:33) belonging and what these people are (00:53:35) saying is I was too driven by whatever (00:53:39) factors impelled me to ignore my (00:53:42) personal relationships and to P my (00:53:45) attention on things that ultimately (00:53:47) don't (00:53:48) matter my acquisition my attainment my (00:53:53) achievement uh rather than the heart-to- (00:53:56) heart human contact with people that (00:53:59) matter to me and (00:54:02) again people are driven to be that way (00:54:05) and when they look back on their life (00:54:07) they regret it because nobody is is (00:54:12) often be said nobody ever on a deathbed (00:54:16) regrets not going to the office often (00:54:19) enough but they do regret the heart (00:54:21) connection that that that they' (00:54:24) sacrificed have you stayed in touch with (00:54:26) your (00:54:28) friends well you know uh that's where (00:54:31) you could say that I haven't um I mean I (00:54:33) have more much more recently it it (00:54:36) matters to me much more now but over the (00:54:38) years um I put work and my busyness and (00:54:43) my writing ahead of all (00:54:47) that is it at all balanced out by the (00:54:50) fact that your work and your writings (00:54:54) yeah have influenced the lives of (00:54:57) millions of people I guess what I'm (00:55:00) trying to get at (00:55:02) is on a personal level you may have (00:55:05) sacrificed your friendships (00:55:08) yeah but perhaps the world has benefited (00:55:13) from Dr mate doing (00:55:15) that is is that fair to say it's fair to (00:55:18) say and to some extent I accept that (00:55:22) that I've made certain decisions and (00:55:24) those decisions have benefited many and (00:55:27) it means that there's certain things (00:55:28) they missed out on um but not (00:55:32) completely and uh I'm much more prone (00:55:37) now to seek out those friendships and to (00:55:41) strengthen them and to celebrate them (00:55:43) and to Value them and I I I have some (00:55:45) really good friends you know and the (00:55:46) people that really care about me and I (00:55:48) care about them and we're there for each (00:55:49) other no matter what you know so that (00:55:51) matters to me much more than it used to (00:55:54) and uh to put it to the (00:55:57) test if I were to choose to live my life (00:56:00) over again I wouldn't live it in this (00:56:02) way yeah I (00:56:04) would say yeah I I have some insights I (00:56:08) have some capacity to articulate some (00:56:10) truths uh that are really important and (00:56:14) I'm not going to let that dominate how I (00:56:17) live my (00:56:18) life um and I think it would have been (00:56:21) possible for me (00:56:23) to express that voice and and and and to (00:56:29) put those teachings out to the world (00:56:31) that I get the feeling feedback that it (00:56:34) does help a lot of people but I could (00:56:36) have done that without the drivenness (00:56:38) without the sacrificing of the heart (00:56:42) without the and and connection that (00:56:44) sometimes that entails so you know again (00:56:47) if I could live it do it over again I (00:56:50) would do it differently and I don't (00:56:51) think in the end that would have (00:56:53) detracted from my message and if it did (00:56:56) I would accept accept that (00:56:58) yeah to make sure you're taking action (00:57:01) after watching this video I have created (00:57:03) a free breathing guide that's going to (00:57:05) help you reduce stress calm your mind (00:57:07) and boost your energy in this guide I (00:57:10) share with you six really simple (00:57:13) breathing practices that work (00:57:15) immediately even just one minute a day (00:57:18) will start to make a big difference to (00:57:20) receive your free guides all you have to (00:57:22) do is click on the link in the (00:57:24) description box below one is I wish I'd (00:57:27) let myself be happier yeah what does (00:57:30) that (00:57:31) say well that always reminds me of (00:57:34) because I mentioned Dr pep and his (00:57:37) concept of the brain circuits yeah one (00:57:39) of them is for play and (00:57:42) joyfulness and (00:57:45) um do you know winner the Poo yeah okay (00:57:49) not (00:57:51) personally the book uh and uh that was (00:57:56) me my favorite books and uh I've talked (00:57:59) about this before the end of that book (00:58:02) would bring tears to my eyes for years (00:58:05) because How It Ends is Christopher Robin (00:58:08) by the way that's a whole other thing (00:58:10) the relationship between a mil and his (00:58:12) son Christopher was a very fraud and (00:58:14) difficult one right and and Christopher (00:58:16) actually resented the books because he (00:58:19) felt that his father was buying these (00:58:22) toys to write about rather than for his (00:58:24) own benefit wow oh they had a very diff (00:58:26) there photograph of the two of them and (00:58:28) the kid is looking so alienated he had a (00:58:29) tough life and but that's a whole other (00:58:32) story but the book in in the book (00:58:34) Christopher Robin the little boy now has (00:58:36) to go to school yeah and he has to learn (00:58:39) about history and factors and (00:58:42) Mathematics and so on and he's telling (00:58:44) his friends the toy animals that he (00:58:46) won't be able to play with them so much (00:58:50) anymore and in the end Christopher and (00:58:54) Winnie the bear of little brain uh who's (00:58:59) the smartest of the whole lot and they (00:59:01) walk off together and the the book ends (00:59:03) with the statement something like and (00:59:06) whatever they do or wherever they go in (00:59:08) the Enchanted Forest a little boy and (00:59:10) his bear will always be playing together (00:59:13) and that phrase would bring tears to my (00:59:15) eyes for (00:59:18) years because play is so important and (00:59:22) joy is so important and that's what (00:59:24) these people are talking about and they (00:59:26) didn't allow themselves to experience it (00:59:28) they sacrific to play in the joy for all (00:59:31) these other (00:59:32) things you know and so (00:59:35) um the good thing is you know um I mean (00:59:39) my marriage the best thing you know what (00:59:41) the best thing in my marriage is the way (00:59:42) we play together the first time I dated (00:59:45) my wife Ray I knocked on the parents' (00:59:48) door and I said can Ray come out and (00:59:51) play and we've been doing it ever since (00:59:54) and (00:59:55) so um (00:59:57) um I believe what's being described in (00:59:59) that last regret is people sacrifice (01:00:02) their playfulness yeah their joyfulness (01:00:05) for the sake of being accepted and being (01:00:07) successful and all that it's a huge one (01:00:10) play is built into our (01:00:12) brains kids play spontaneously infants (01:00:16) play M and um in that (01:00:21) sense we can all be win the Pooh and and (01:00:24) Christopher we can always keep playing (01:00:26) in the Enchanted Forest and that's just (01:00:30) essential I (01:00:31) think in that final regrets is the word (01:00:35) happier yeah what does happiness mean to (01:00:39) you uh really it means the capacity to (01:00:42) play and to be in the present moment and (01:00:44) and and and and you know the kids when (01:00:46) when kids play they don't worry about (01:00:48) the (01:00:49) the appropriately they don't worry about (01:00:52) the war wherever or or climate change (01:00:56) just playing in the moment they're fully (01:00:58) present to themselves in imaginative (01:01:02) almost hypnotically imaginative States (01:01:05) so happiness just means being in the (01:01:06) present and being allowed to be no (01:01:08) matter what to have the capacity to (01:01:11) play a lot of people today gabo and I (01:01:14) think you have struggled with this as (01:01:16) well from what I (01:01:17) know feel with so much heartache and (01:01:20) suffering in the world yeah they feel (01:01:23) that they have no right to be happy (01:01:26) what's your take on that (01:01:29) well (01:01:30) um first of (01:01:33) all Bob Dylan said somewhere that it's (01:01:36) difficult to be completely happy when (01:01:37) other people are suffering it's true so (01:01:41) what this this is a time of terrible (01:01:43) suffering you know how I feel about Gaza (01:01:45) and the terrible things that are (01:01:46) happening there how can I be completely (01:01:49) happy I can't be completely happy I (01:01:51) can't because I can't not think about (01:01:54) that the horror of it (01:01:57) um but at the same time and this is (01:02:02) why people might (01:02:04) start get weirded out but I'm talking (01:02:06) about a psychedelic experience this is (01:02:09) three or four years ago I did (01:02:12) uh I worked with psychedelics both as a (01:02:15) Healer but also as a subject and I was (01:02:18) having a mushroom (01:02:20) experience and the same thing would (01:02:22) happened with AOS (01:02:25) once and (01:02:26) I've always been one that felt that how (01:02:30) could I be happy when asit is possible (01:02:33) when as what happened when my (01:02:35) grandparents perished there how can I be (01:02:38) happy what right do I have to be happy (01:02:40) if that can happen in the world and that (01:02:42) did happen in the (01:02:44) world and both the plants showed me at (01:02:48) some point that happened and yes you can (01:02:52) be happy that the one doesn't detract (01:02:55) from the other that that the capacity to (01:02:59) be empathetic and to recognize the grief (01:03:02) and to hold the grief does not obviate (01:03:05) the capacity to be happy and one doesn't (01:03:08) one does not one is not (01:03:10) disloyal to the suffering in the world (01:03:13) by allowing ourselves to be happy so (01:03:15) there's no necessary contradiction and (01:03:18) I I've seen people on death (01:03:23) row who if they win their appeal (01:03:26) the best thing they can hope for is life (01:03:28) in jail without life in prison without (01:03:32) parole but they're happy and how do they (01:03:36) become (01:03:37) happy (01:03:39) meditation working through their (01:03:42) traumas having remorse for what they did (01:03:45) connecting with other people and just (01:03:48) connecting with the present moment and (01:03:50) I'm thinking my God if people in that (01:03:53) situation can be genuinely happy which (01:03:55) I've seen (01:03:57) i' I've had contact with the people then (01:03:59) who am I to say that I can't be happy (01:04:02) yeah so so there's ultimately there's no (01:04:04) contradiction yeah now in this Society (01:04:07) there's way too much emphasis on you (01:04:09) know don't worry be happy Let's ignore (01:04:11) all the bad stuff that's going on let's (01:04:13) just concentrate on how we can make (01:04:14) ourselves pleased or or pleasured or (01:04:17) whatever I'm not talking about that no (01:04:19) I'm talking about being able to hold (01:04:21) both at the same time yeah you have to (01:04:22) and this is something I feel I've really (01:04:25) grown into the last years that I (01:04:27) actually can be very happy and content (01:04:30) yeah whilst there is heartache in the (01:04:32) world it doesn't mean I don't care I (01:04:35) actually deeply care yeah but I realized (01:04:39) that it's real skill it's an evolution (01:04:42) of the self to be able to hold those two (01:04:44) yeah I really do think that I think it's (01:04:46) growth that's right I very much love the (01:04:50) phrase uh that's attributed to (01:04:52) Gandhi be the change you want to see in (01:04:55) the world (01:04:57) yeah I I live I try my best to live my (01:05:01) life by that and why that's relevant to (01:05:03) this part of the conversation is I said (01:05:06) this once at a live event I said listen (01:05:07) if you watch the news and you allow this (01:05:09) is a few years ago allow the heartache (01:05:11) that's going on in name the country (01:05:13) right to affect you so much so that you (01:05:18) develop apathy you can't interact with (01:05:21) your husband with your children you you (01:05:24) you just drink more and more alcohol (01:05:26) even to numb your pain yeah what does (01:05:28) that do yeah right you're no good to the (01:05:31) people who are suffering you're no good (01:05:34) to those people around you and that then (01:05:35) ripples to everyone around you whereas (01:05:38) if you can learn to be content where (01:05:41) you're at yeah if you then do want to go (01:05:44) and help in whatever way you're much (01:05:46) more able to you know volunteer send (01:05:48) money whatever it might be yeah so I I (01:05:52) think this is I think this is a really (01:05:53) important point for people especially (01:05:55) the way things are in the world at the (01:05:57) moment a lot of people feel I've got no (01:05:59) right to be happy yeah well I I no (01:06:01) longer believe I used to believe that (01:06:03) and somebody once said to be sent to me (01:06:05) don't be so loyal to your (01:06:08) suffering and um that's a lesson I've (01:06:11) had to learn fairly late in life yeah (01:06:14) um and as I quote in the midth of normal (01:06:18) my friend Bessel Vander the trauma uh (01:06:22) psychiatrist looked at me once this is (01:06:24) about 10 12 years ago we having lunch (01:06:26) and he said gaboy you don't have to drag (01:06:29) arit around everywhere you go and what (01:06:32) he meant by that is that you don't have (01:06:35) to let that affect your present moment (01:06:37) that you can be aware of it hold a (01:06:38) memory of it but not let it determine (01:06:42) your internal States you know and and (01:06:45) it's true and I I understood (01:06:46) intellectually at that time what he (01:06:48) meant but it was only later that it I (01:06:49) was actually able to emotionally let go (01:06:53) let's just talk about forgiveness then (01:06:55) because a lot of the time people (01:06:58) say you know I just can't forgive what (01:07:01) what happened to me was wrong yeah now I (01:07:05) accept what happened to someone could (01:07:06) can be wrong yeah but it doesn't (01:07:09) necessarily follow that you can't (01:07:12) forgive yeah what's your take on (01:07:14) forgiveness well you and I last night we (01:07:16) were talking about a woman that be both (01:07:19) mad and admire tremendously Edith Edgar (01:07:22) yeah and Edith as I told you was 16 (01:07:26) years old when I was one year old she (01:07:30) lived in a town in what is not Southern (01:07:32) Slovakia then was Northern Hungary (01:07:35) called Kasha or kosit and her family (01:07:38) were taken to (01:07:39) owitz and (01:07:42) um my grandparents would have been (01:07:45) either on the same shipment to ushitz or (01:07:47) within the next day or (01:07:49) so and her parents perished and she (01:07:52) survived with her sister and she's (01:07:55) become this psychotherapist she's (01:07:57) written a couple of wonderful books that (01:07:58) I know you've met her and interviewed (01:07:59) her and in one of her books she (01:08:01) describes going to the burkhoff in (01:08:03) Bavarian Alps where Hitler used to have (01:08:06) his lair and he went there she went (01:08:08) there to forgive (01:08:10) Hitler and (01:08:12) [Music] (01:08:13) um it doesn't mean that it was okay what (01:08:16) he did she did that to liberate herself (01:08:19) she didn't she said I don't want to keep (01:08:21) him in his prison in my heart for the (01:08:22) rest of my life I've worked too hard to (01:08:25) attain happiness and joy to let this (01:08:28) tension and this constriction control me (01:08:31) so the Forgiveness (01:08:33) wasn't making okay or or (01:08:38) pardoning Hitler for (01:08:40) his for all the evil that he perpetrated (01:08:43) in the world but is her letting (01:08:45) go of the emotions around it and of the (01:08:49) tension and the tightness around it so (01:08:52) forgiveness is not for the other person (01:08:55) it's for yourself (01:08:58) now when I work with (01:09:00) forgiveness I don't advise people to (01:09:03) forgive in fact as a matter of (01:09:08) fact I do the opposite I say to (01:09:13) people before you forgive allow yourself (01:09:15) to feel the full anger that's in you let (01:09:18) you let yourself fully experience the (01:09:20) anger that's there because once you (01:09:23) do it'll dissipate you let go of it so (01:09:27) don't do it in order to forgive do it in (01:09:30) order to liberate yourself (01:09:33) now let's say I was abused as a (01:09:37) child but let's say I find myself fully (01:09:41) liberated present oriented in contact (01:09:45) with (01:09:46) myself human being then what does that (01:09:49) mean it means nothing was taken away (01:09:52) from me it means that whatever happened (01:09:55) caused me a lot of pain over the years (01:09:57) but it didn't limit my capacity I wasn't (01:10:00) robbed of anything so what's there to (01:10:03) forgive so uh yeah and and and you can (01:10:08) also ask (01:10:09) yourself or anybody when you haven't (01:10:12) forgiven what's in your heart what's in (01:10:14) your body do you like that state that (01:10:17) you're (01:10:18) in uh the tension do you like that is (01:10:22) that how you want to be do you think (01:10:23) that's really helping you so I don't go (01:10:26) my way to teach now I know that in a lot (01:10:27) of spiritual practices there are (01:10:29) forgiveness practices and I know in (01:10:31) Buddhist practice and lot of spiritual (01:10:34) practices there forgiveness meditations (01:10:36) and prayers my mind doesn't go there but (01:10:39) my mind does say I I always have to (01:10:43) experience all the rage all the hatred (01:10:45) all the anger that's in you and be with (01:10:47) it and see what happens to it yeah and (01:10:50) what happens to it once you pay (01:10:52) attention to it it actually (01:10:57) dissipates and so when Edith goes to the (01:11:00) burov to forgive Hitler she's just (01:11:02) saying I don't want to hold on to this (01:11:04) stuff anymore it's not okay what you did (01:11:06) but I don't want to hold on to this (01:11:08) stuff anymore yeah it's it's fascinating (01:11:11) I think (01:11:12) curiosity (01:11:15) is is often a very helpful Pathway to (01:11:18) forgiveness because if you get curious (01:11:21) about that other person to why did they (01:11:24) act that way mhm I'm not talking about (01:11:26) Hitler here I'm talking about yeah (01:11:28) anyone but even with Hitler yeah what (01:11:30) what were the conditions in that (01:11:33) person's life that led to that if I was (01:11:36) that person I'd be behaving in exactly (01:11:38) the same way because I would have had (01:11:40) their parents and their childhood (01:11:41) experiences and they're bullying etc etc (01:11:44) exactly once you look at the world (01:11:46) through that (01:11:48) lens your initial approach becomes (01:11:52) compassion forgiveness comes as a (01:11:56) side effects of getting curious that's (01:11:59) totally right and there's an expression (01:12:01) that you may be familiar with which goes (01:12:03) to understand is to forgive yeah and uh (01:12:06) it begins with curiosity yeah so I and I (01:12:09) think that that curiosity is the (01:12:11) essential quality that actually leads to (01:12:14) compassion in the end now compassion (01:12:16) doesn't mean tolerance of bad behavior (01:12:19) no it doesn't mean validating or (01:12:21) justifying crimes against um nature (01:12:25) crimes against other human beings but it (01:12:28) takes away that quality of tension where (01:12:30) you make yourself Superior to reality (01:12:33) and you may and you put yourself in a (01:12:34) position to judge reality you know and (01:12:37) I'm above it and I'm in a position to (01:12:38) judge that's not a comfortable I mean (01:12:41) actually it is comfortable for a lot of (01:12:43) people to be there but it's a way of not (01:12:45) dealing with their own stuff so I do (01:12:47) think that curiosity is the key just to (01:12:50) wrap this conversation up Gabel we've (01:12:52) been talking a lot about these regrets (01:12:54) the regrets of dying yeah (01:12:58) and the final question I want to put to (01:13:00) you (01:13:01) is about the word (01:13:06) regret I have been playing with the idea (01:13:09) over the last 12 months or so that (01:13:11) regret is actually a form of (01:13:15) perfectionism so I actually now very (01:13:17) much subscribe to the philosophy of no (01:13:19) regrets but not in the not in the kind (01:13:21) of derogatory way you I'm going to live (01:13:23) my life my way it doesn't matter who (01:13:24) comes to my way (01:13:26) no with this really compassionate (01:13:27) understanding that I've always done the (01:13:29) best that I can yeah based upon where I (01:13:32) was in life at that time yeah so even (01:13:36) the things that I look back on and go (01:13:38) actually you know what if I was in that (01:13:41) situation again today I would act (01:13:43) differently I don't see them as regrets (01:13:46) I see them as situations that happen (01:13:49) that have taught me something which is (01:13:50) allowing me to be a better version of (01:13:52) myself today exactly so in my life today (01:13:55) there's there is no room for regret (01:13:59) anymore and I guess I would love to know (01:14:01) you know right at the end here what's (01:14:03) your perspective on the word regret (01:14:07) um I think um chronic regret is (01:14:11) debilitating um it's a lack of self (01:14:13) forgiveness it's um also kind of egotism (01:14:17) of that that that that that somehow that (01:14:20) important um it's quite something to (01:14:23) recognize I do recognize (01:14:26) that some of the way I parented my kids (01:14:28) the way I showed up I've often talked (01:14:29) about this in your program too wasn't (01:14:32) the best for them but it was the best I (01:14:34) could do at the time so it's not the (01:14:37) question of justifying but it's also not (01:14:39) dwelling on the past regret is to dwell (01:14:43) on the past and what's the point it's (01:14:46) quite something to (01:14:48) recognize that I did things that had I (01:14:52) known differently I would not have done (01:14:53) the same way that's just (01:14:56) learning um regret is an emotional state (01:15:01) of that values the past more than the (01:15:04) present and it um accuses (01:15:09) yourself (01:15:10) [Music] (01:15:12) of doing things for which you had no (01:15:16) consciousness to do otherwise so that's (01:15:19) where I stand with the greate yeah K (01:15:21) well you know what a big fan I am of (01:15:23) your work um it's just incredible to see (01:15:26) the (01:15:26) impact you're having on so many people (01:15:29) around the world I'm very lucky to (01:15:31) consider you a friend these days it's (01:15:33) been great to get to know you over the (01:15:34) last few years (01:15:36) um for someone who has heard us speak (01:15:41) today and something connected with them (01:15:44) something you said spoke to them and (01:15:47) they thought wow yeah you know what I'm (01:15:49) carrying around old stuff with me (01:15:51) today I don't express my emotions I'm (01:15:54) not living a life that is true to me (01:15:58) yeah what are some of your final words (01:16:00) for them well it's the word that you (01:16:03) used (01:16:05) curiosity (01:16:06) so not why am I living this way but hm (01:16:11) why am I living this way you know what (01:16:13) happened to me what am I carrying here (01:16:15) so uh the key phrase is precisely the (01:16:18) one that you introduced the necessity to (01:16:21) be curious yeah um in a compassionate (01:16:24) way so you you don't do an interrogation (01:16:26) of yourself like you're um Prosecuting (01:16:30) detective of why did you or why did you (01:16:32) not but (01:16:34) compassionately why did you not yeah why (01:16:37) did you and if you ask these questions (01:16:41) compassionately um and with curiosity (01:16:45) the answers will emerge as will the (01:16:48) capacity for you make yourself for you (01:16:50) to make different choices As you move (01:16:51) forward so where there wasn't Choice (01:16:54) before cuz you were compelled hel (01:16:56) or or or driven now you can have some (01:17:00) Freedom if you're willing to be curious (01:17:02) so curiosity is the word yeah gab all (01:17:06) your books are fantastic if someone is (01:17:09) at the start of their gab M Journey yeah (01:17:11) which book would you direct them towards (01:17:13) well you know um that depends on what (01:17:17) they're dealing with you know I mean if (01:17:18) they're interested in addiction (01:17:20) specifically they should read my book on (01:17:21) addiction or parenting they should read (01:17:23) hold on to your kids but if they want to (01:17:25) get the overall picture of the package (01:17:28) you know it's it's the certainly the (01:17:29) most recent the myth of normal in which (01:17:31) I combine pretty much everything I knew (01:17:34) at the time that I wrote it and I (01:17:35) already was only published a year and a (01:17:38) half ago it's been published now in 40 (01:17:42) countries and 38 languages it's been a (01:17:44) best seller in a number of countries (01:17:47) that's the one I would start with um but (01:17:49) if you're interested in specific topics (01:17:52) then seek out the like ADHD you should (01:17:55) read scattered you should I would invite (01:17:57) you to read scattered Minds you know uh (01:17:59) so it just depends what you're dealing (01:18:01) with but if you want an overall (01:18:03) immersion in what I have to say it's the (01:18:06) myth of normal that's what which what I (01:18:08) would say the myth of normal over 1 (01:18:10) million copies sold it says on this one (01:18:12) it's been a Smash Hit around the world (01:18:14) it's a great book Gabel thanks for (01:18:16) coming back on the show thank you I hope (01:18:18) to do it again if you enjoyed that (01:18:21) conversation I think you are really (01:18:22) going to enjoy this one about the top (01:18:25) five regrets of the dying and what we (01:18:27) can learn from them I spent eight years (01:18:29) looking after dying people and the most (01:18:32) common regret during those eight years (01:18:34) was I wish I'd lived a life true to (01:18:36) myself not the life that other people (01:18:38) expected of me