Katharine Birbalsingh: Is Classical Education the Key to Reviving the West? (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:02) special thanks to Waterstone for (00:00:05) sponsoring Socrates in the studio season (00:00:08) 3 in a day and age where we there are (00:00:11) all kinds of problems around (00:00:13) multiculturalism uh I feel we've found (00:00:16) the secret to it and how to make it work (00:00:18) under an umbrella of conservative values (00:00:21) that we all buy into Under the Umbrella (00:00:23) of britishness where we have a British (00:00:25) flag flying outside and when the World (00:00:27) Cup is on we all are rooting for England (00:00:31) whatever our color whatever our religion (00:00:33) Etc um I think that those elements of a (00:00:37) school often people ignore and both on (00:00:40) the right and the left I'd say uh people (00:00:43) don't necessarily realize the impact (00:00:45) that schools have on a country and that (00:00:48) if you're fighting for your country and (00:00:50) you're fighting for the West schools (00:00:52) must be part of that (00:00:55) conversation welcome to Socrates in the (00:00:59) studio or socres in the city the city in (00:01:01) this case being londinium as they used (00:01:04) to say in Roman times uh I'm Eric Maxis (00:01:08) and we're talking largely uh about the (00:01:11) question the large question what is the (00:01:14) future of the West um today to (00:01:19) discuss that question uh but more (00:01:22) specifically with regard to classical (00:01:24) education I have is my guest Katherine (00:01:27) burbling I hope I pronounce that (00:01:29) correctly we'll find out in a minute (00:01:30) she's head mistress and co-founder of (00:01:32) Michaela Community School in Wembley (00:01:35) London uh Michaela that's the name of (00:01:37) the school is known for its tough love (00:01:39) Behavior systems knowledge curriculum (00:01:42) and teaching of kindness and (00:01:45) gratitude um Katherine read philosophy (00:01:48) and modern languages at the University (00:01:50) of Oxford uh and has pretty much ever (00:01:53) since taught in inner London inner city (00:01:57) London she was appointed commander of (00:02:00) the order of the British Empire in (00:02:04) 2020 by the (00:02:07) queen um I should mention that the (00:02:09) school uh Michaela uh was graded as (00:02:13) outstanding in (00:02:15) 2017 uh and in (00:02:17) 2022 uh approximately 75% of all (00:02:22) GCS at Mela were graded um what we would (00:02:26) consider United States from a to A+ so (00:02:30) we get into that Katherine's written two (00:02:32) books and edited two more including The (00:02:34) Battle Hymn of the tiger teachers uh (00:02:38) Katherine bural sing welcome to sakes in (00:02:40) the city thank you for having me I'm I'm (00:02:43) I'm nervous about whether I pronounced (00:02:45) many things your name for example Bing (00:02:48) great job very good what kind of a name (00:02:49) is burble Singh well yeah it's um my (00:02:54) father is Indian (00:02:55) gye uh and the word the the name sing (00:03:00) actually um is a seik name and should (00:03:04) really be on its own and really is (00:03:07) normally for men yeah um now in the day (00:03:11) when slavery was abolished in the (00:03:13) Caribbean um the British brought over (00:03:16) indentured servants from India and these (00:03:20) were doot people so The Untouchables as (00:03:22) as people would know wow and they were (00:03:24) brought over from India and so my (00:03:26) grandmother was born on the boat on the (00:03:28) way from India (00:03:30) and um I mean I never I've never met her (00:03:33) and you know I never met my grandfather (00:03:35) either my my father's parents and uh (00:03:38) what so the Indians arrived and there is (00:03:41) a cast system in India and Brahman at (00:03:44) the top Untouchables at the bottom and (00:03:47) having moved to another country at that (00:03:49) point people tried to seize you know the (00:03:52) opportunity to maybe change their cast (00:03:53) in some way yeah and so we imagine that (00:03:57) the word sing the name sing was just (00:03:59) sort of (00:04:01) attached to the Beer Bal beer Bal would (00:04:03) be and and beer there's actually beer (00:04:05) Bal stories in India where this um this (00:04:08) kind of Joker used to tell stories to (00:04:10) the king and there's like stories that (00:04:12) Indians read to their to their children (00:04:15) so we imagine beer ball was attached (00:04:16) sing was attached to try and move them (00:04:18) up to the warrior CL cast I don't know (00:04:22) it is a very strange name well I the the (00:04:26) but I just I'm glad I pronounced it (00:04:27) correctly that's the main thing I guess (00:04:30) I there's so much I want to talk to you (00:04:31) about but let's let's start most people (00:04:33) tuning in are not familiar with your (00:04:36) story um you were teaching in you know (00:04:40) what we you call it inner London we I (00:04:43) guess we say inner city schools yes with (00:04:46) poor kids in these schools yes and tell (00:04:51) us your story in other words what (00:04:52) happened while you were doing that when (00:04:55) you just said I've got to do something (00:04:56) else or what what's that story well I (00:04:59) that led to Michaela school yes what (00:05:02) okay so um my parents from the Caribbean (00:05:04) my mother's Jamaican I've always worked (00:05:06) in the inner city with brown and black (00:05:07) kids um wanting to uh enable social (00:05:11) Mobility for them and to give them a (00:05:13) chance at success um I used to write a (00:05:16) blog uh in the day when nobody wrote (00:05:18) blogs and it was called to miss with (00:05:20) love which is now to miss with love (00:05:23) there are people most people younger (00:05:26) than I won't get the reference yes uh (00:05:30) refers to uh a 1960s film starring (00:05:33) Sydney potier called To Sir with Love (00:05:37) where he teaches in an inner city school (00:05:39) I don't know if it's Chicago or (00:05:41) something like that but so you started (00:05:43) to blog because you're teaching at one (00:05:44) of these schools yes uh and I called it (00:05:46) to miss with love and um I used to and (00:05:50) and my name was Miss sopus in in the (00:05:53) blog now I I also happen to get that (00:05:55) reference because I I was one of the (00:05:58) first Watchers of Sesame Street when it (00:06:00) came out in 1969 yes and I remember Mr (00:06:03) Snuffleupagus now why in the world would (00:06:05) you name yourself well you'll remember (00:06:08) that um Mr sopus uh was Big Bird's (00:06:11) friend and um he was this kind of (00:06:14) Mammoth uh and no one could see Mr snuff (00:06:17) upus except for Big Bird because he was (00:06:19) sort of the elephant in the room so it (00:06:21) made sense that I called myself Miss (00:06:23) snuff upus which in the end was (00:06:24) shortened to miss Snuffy and in fact to (00:06:27) this day my Twitter is Miss Snuffy yes (00:06:30) noticed that also I I looked you up uh I (00:06:33) I love that I want to ask you so you're (00:06:35) this is going to be a problematic (00:06:36) conversation because I already want to (00:06:38) talk to you about eight things and we (00:06:39) have room for like three um so you were (00:06:44) teaching in inner city schools teaching (00:06:46) poor kids you know what we call (00:06:48) minorities in the United States and (00:06:51) clearly uh you saw that it wasn't (00:06:55) working very well the the the system in (00:06:58) these schools were you you you were (00:07:00) outspoken about that in your blog but (00:07:02) not publicly anonymously exactly because (00:07:04) I couldn't you weren't not really (00:07:06) allowed to say these things I used to (00:07:07) just write little stories little money (00:07:09) Little Johnny got his money stolen today (00:07:11) isn't this Dreadful so and so got beat (00:07:13) up today isn't this awful so and so (00:07:15) brought a hammer in today and whacked (00:07:16) somebody on the head or that kind of (00:07:18) thing and what I didn't know was at the (00:07:20) time uh Boris Johnson who later became (00:07:23) prime minister or Michael Gove who later (00:07:25) became education secretary various (00:07:27) journalists were reading my blog quietly (00:07:30) I didn't know I mean how would I know in (00:07:33) any case I wrote this thing anonymously (00:07:35) penguin were also reading my blog they (00:07:37) eventually contacted me and said oh we'd (00:07:39) really like to turn this into a book I (00:07:41) said okay but it has to be anonymous (00:07:43) because I'm not really allowed to say (00:07:43) this sort of thing they said fine it (00:07:46) turns out that my publisher knew the (00:07:49) what who was to become the new education (00:07:52) secretary Michael Gove uh the (00:07:54) conservatives in 2010 then won the (00:07:56) election she said to me you need to go (00:07:58) and tell him your thoughts about (00:07:59) education so that things can get changed (00:08:01) I very naively went along to number 10 (00:08:04) Downing Street actually and um said (00:08:06) here's my list these are the things you (00:08:07) need to change can you fix the schools (00:08:09) for us please um Michael go said well (00:08:12) why don't you come and speak at our (00:08:14) conference now our conference is (00:08:16) basically the equivalent to your (00:08:17) political conventions I didn't know (00:08:19) anything about political conferences and (00:08:21) con conventions I said well you know I (00:08:24) need to be anonymous and he said well (00:08:25) you don't need to give your name I but (00:08:28) it will be out on BBC Parliament it's (00:08:30) this channel that literally nobody (00:08:31) watches and I thought well it's like our (00:08:33) cpan or something okay exactly nobody (00:08:35) watch three yeah exactly I thought (00:08:38) nobody watches it it'll be fine now that (00:08:40) sounds a bit silly now because of course (00:08:42) everything's online in those days I mean (00:08:44) it was still naive it was a bit silly (00:08:46) but not as silly as it would sound now (00:08:48) there was no social media in those days (00:08:49) and so on now what I hadn't really (00:08:51) thought I thought well it'll get aired (00:08:53) on BBC Parliament nobody will watch it (00:08:55) and that'll be the end what I hadn't (00:08:56) considered is that of course once it's (00:08:58) been recorded it can be replayed (00:09:01) this is the key point that I didn't (00:09:02) think of and because I spoke I suppose (00:09:06) it was only a six- minute speech or (00:09:07) something but I said certain things that (00:09:10) made the audience quite you know (00:09:13) interested um at this Conservative Party (00:09:15) Conference and um they they gave me a (00:09:17) standing ovation at which point the (00:09:19) Press turned to me and (00:09:22) I I was just a teacher I mean I didn't (00:09:25) know and I thought you were outed as a (00:09:28) troublemaker as a truth speaking big (00:09:31) troublemaker you know there are all (00:09:32) these things that I see that are true (00:09:33) but I can't say them or I could lose my (00:09:36) job I ostensibly that that's the issue (00:09:38) right you could lose your job but did (00:09:40) you at that time think of yourself as (00:09:43) someone who might be a force for good or (00:09:46) were you just thinking I have to work (00:09:48) within the system I I'm sorry a Force (00:09:51) for good in a larger sense is what I (00:09:52) mean mean oh no I didn't think I thought (00:09:54) I'd go back to school and get on with my (00:09:55) life I just thought I'm coming here to (00:09:58) tell everybody this is how it's broken (00:10:00) can you please fix it and they'll go (00:10:01) away and fix it I mean I I know that (00:10:03) sounds hopelessly naive but I was a (00:10:05) teacher who marked my books I didn't pay (00:10:06) any attention to politics and actually (00:10:09) what ended up happening was that I was (00:10:11) sent home and um essentially suspended (00:10:14) although not officially and of course (00:10:16) but what did you say that was so (00:10:18) offensive I mean at some point I have a (00:10:19) quote the system is broken because it (00:10:22) keeps poor children poor well that just (00:10:25) saying that of course is incendiary (00:10:28) mainly because it was true well I also (00:10:30) said things like uh black children fail (00:10:33) because of what the white liberal does (00:10:35) to them you know and what I was saying (00:10:38) was look the the Crux of the speech was (00:10:41) I understand the left has done lots of (00:10:43) good for uh poor kids for black kids and (00:10:46) so on but we need to pull back now and (00:10:50) we need to maybe listen to what the (00:10:51) conservative side is saying and that (00:10:54) maybe some of those conservative values (00:10:56) would you know have a have a place in (00:10:57) our schools and that's just unex acable (00:11:00) but most importantly what was (00:11:01) unacceptable is that I was speaking at (00:11:02) the Conservative Party Conference (00:11:04) frankly if IID said the same thing at (00:11:05) some Union conference it would have been (00:11:07) fine so right I just I sided with the (00:11:10) conservatives okay so you said this it (00:11:12) blows up what happens when do you decide (00:11:15) so I'm essentially kicked out okay so (00:11:17) it's I didn't decide I was kicked out no (00:11:18) no I mean when did you decide (00:11:20) to start yeah well because I didn't I (00:11:23) was kicked out a school and so I didn't (00:11:26) have any choice I mean it really wasn't (00:11:27) because I had this idea of oh my (00:11:29) goodness I'm going to show everyone not (00:11:31) at all I just had to work and so I (00:11:34) thought well I know what I'll do is I'll (00:11:35) set up my own school and then we'll be (00:11:37) able to do Implement some of the ideas (00:11:40) that I want to implement so it took us (00:11:42) three and a half years though and I (00:11:45) didn't have any choice I had to keep (00:11:47) going because I was just living off (00:11:49) writing I was writing (00:11:51) journalism blogging but I mean I was (00:11:54) really I was living off my savings those (00:11:56) savings were going down and down I was (00:11:58) getting more and more worried (00:12:00) um normally in those days so free (00:12:02) schools had just started They're copying (00:12:04) your Charter Schools um they didn't (00:12:06) exist before 2010 in England you all had (00:12:09) them since the early 90s Michael Gove (00:12:11) the education secretary copied the (00:12:13) American Charter School System (00:12:15) essentially and brought free schools (00:12:16) into the mix in Britain and so we I was (00:12:21) there trying to set up the school you (00:12:23) were meant to be able to do it in a year (00:12:25) but we had so many detractors trying to (00:12:26) stop us so they would send people to our (00:12:29) parent events we'd have a parents (00:12:31) evening to tell in a pub to tell people (00:12:33) about um the school there'd be all these (00:12:36) black mums from the local market who (00:12:37) would come along and all of these white (00:12:39) people had been busted in from outside (00:12:41) of London with placards calling me Tory (00:12:44) teacher shouting abuse at me and then (00:12:46) infiltrating the evening and standing up (00:12:49) and shouting at me so that they would (00:12:51) drown us out so that so you actually (00:12:54) cared about children about their (00:12:57) schooling and you wanted to do something (00:12:59) about it and many many many people (00:13:03) wanted to stop you I mean yes it sounds (00:13:06) crazy principally because it is crazy (00:13:09) but it is it's extraordinary that we're (00:13:11) living in these kinds of times that (00:13:13) you're earnestly trying to to to help (00:13:15) the situation is there nothing over here (00:13:18) uh in England like what we have in the (00:13:20) united states in the United States over (00:13:21) time we've developed this um you know uh (00:13:24) we we have a lot of classical Christian (00:13:26) schools and we have a lot of uh charter (00:13:28) schools and we have a l lot of (00:13:29) homeschooling and you're really seeing (00:13:32) robust change in the United States (00:13:34) finally yes but was there nothing like (00:13:36) that until 2010 no exactly there was (00:13:39) nothing we only had the state school (00:13:41) system I mean you might have private (00:13:43) schools but that's it you know so you (00:13:47) the reason why we don't have all of (00:13:48) those schools like the classical schools (00:13:50) that you see in America I always am (00:13:52) amazed by it even to this day we don't (00:13:54) have that kind of thing but we've only (00:13:56) been doing this for 15 years so what is (00:13:59) the what is the essence of our school (00:14:02) what you're trying to do that is (00:14:05) upsetting to people on whatever on the (00:14:07) other side so to speak so why are they (00:14:10) upset I say that we're teaching children (00:14:12) small C conservative values they don't (00:14:14) like the word conservative it makes them (00:14:16) very upset they especially I think don't (00:14:18) like it when a woman of my color is (00:14:20) saying that I'm not allowed to you're (00:14:22) not allowed to say that no no people of (00:14:25) your color can only speak one way that's (00:14:27) the rule but we don't believe in rules (00:14:29) we in Anarchy but that's different so (00:14:31) you but your school um is it's it's you (00:14:34) you were build as you know the strictest (00:14:37) uh head mistress in the UK you believe (00:14:39) in rules and order yes which they also (00:14:43) don't like that most people know that (00:14:45) can go too (00:14:47) far but in the last 50 or so years it's (00:14:52) been thrown the baby's been thrown out (00:14:54) with a bath water where there's very (00:14:55) little of that I remember already in the (00:14:58) 70s when I was in school they had oh (00:15:00) there's an experimental School across (00:15:02) town where they have no there no (00:15:04) classrooms or there's no or there no (00:15:07) grades there's no walls or this kind of (00:15:09) stuff and of course that's carried on (00:15:11) for decades until you have chaos and I I (00:15:14) assume that was the chaos you were (00:15:15) dealing with in these inner city schools (00:15:17) yeah so absolutely your man John Dewey (00:15:20) is you know much to be he's at fold and (00:15:24) Russo is at fault with you know you need (00:15:26) to draw it out of the child instead of (00:15:29) putting it into the child I mean come on (00:15:32) we are adults we know more than children (00:15:34) we should be telling them stuff um and (00:15:36) teaching them stuff instead of allowing (00:15:38) them to sit in groups and lead the (00:15:40) learning because there's no adult who (00:15:42) can be an authority in the room well (00:15:43) it's interesting because it's a Socrates (00:15:45) in the city conversation I have to go to (00:15:47) the things that are antecedent to what (00:15:49) you you've just done that by mentioning (00:15:51) rouso and dwey there are fundamental (00:15:54) ideas which we would say are (00:15:57) mistaken but that they have been really (00:15:59) foisted on children and (00:16:03) families and you saw cuz you were there (00:16:07) that that that those ideas were failing (00:16:10) exactly so the thing is I used to be a (00:16:14) qu of sort of typical left leaning (00:16:16) teacher um when I was at University I (00:16:19) read uh living Marxism and you know I (00:16:22) was very much a lefty teacher and then I (00:16:24) went into teaching and started trying (00:16:27) out all the ideas that you were taught (00:16:28) at teacher training college and so on (00:16:30) and then I came to realize slowly wait a (00:16:32) minute this stuff isn't working and (00:16:34) actually if I just go back to basics and (00:16:35) do more of the sort of conservative (00:16:37) stuff which just comes naturally to you (00:16:39) actually you know I think if you take a (00:16:40) child who's 12 and she puts out her (00:16:42) dolls and she teaches them with her (00:16:44) pretend little Blackboard she will do (00:16:47) what we do at Michaela which is teach (00:16:49) them stuff and then test them on it you (00:16:51) know like you'll have a class discussion (00:16:54) um you'll have some exercises to do (00:16:56) you'll write stuff down instead of (00:16:58) having a Chromebook an iPad in every (00:17:00) classroom and smartphones and earphones (00:17:03) in and general rudess with children with (00:17:05) their hands in their pockets and just (00:17:07) slouching around all over the place now (00:17:09) you know when I say that sort of thing (00:17:10) now they say oh Katherine come on calm (00:17:13) down what's the big deal and I just (00:17:14) think well it's our duty obviously to (00:17:16) help children be the best that they can (00:17:18) be it's this I mean it's the I don't (00:17:20) know who said it but it's the soft (00:17:22) bigotry of low expectations the idea who (00:17:25) said Bush said it did he uh well he (00:17:28) didn't write it but (00:17:30) but the idea that we can't push them too (00:17:33) hard the poor things yes they and you (00:17:36) know that that's a lie yes and so you (00:17:38) have dedicated yourself well because I (00:17:40) tell you what happens is you don't push (00:17:43) them because you feel sorry for them and (00:17:45) then they do really badly and then what (00:17:47) you say if you're on the left you say oh (00:17:49) well you know what we need to do we need (00:17:52) to have quot so we'll just push them in (00:17:55) at age 20 into some job that they don't (00:17:58) have the skills for because because we (00:17:59) never taught them the skills but it's (00:18:01) okay because we'll pepper around some (00:18:04) black faces and some poor faces and some (00:18:07) you know various people so it looks like (00:18:09) it's a diverse intake and then we feel (00:18:11) good about ourselves but what's (00:18:13) important is that the children be taught (00:18:14) the skills and the knowledge that they (00:18:15) need to be able to lead an interesting (00:18:17) life so in your mind what is classical (00:18:19) education uh and and and then the bigger (00:18:22) question is because I'm talking about (00:18:23) the West is is classical education to (00:18:26) your mind key to uh uh to the future of (00:18:31) the West if the West is to have a future (00:18:34) yes well it's interesting I mean (00:18:35) classical education it depends I (00:18:37) wouldn't NE necessarily describe us as a (00:18:39) classical education school um certainly (00:18:42) the classical education schools in in in (00:18:44) the US uh they want to teach a lot of (00:18:49) Plato and Aristotle (00:18:52) and but what where and we don't (00:18:54) necessarily do that at our school but I (00:18:57) think where we are 100% in a agement is (00:19:00) that you want to teach some of the (00:19:02) greats you want to teach the dead white (00:19:04) men um you know the thing I always think (00:19:07) that's interesting about dead white men (00:19:08) is everybody always concentrates on the (00:19:10) white bit and on the men bit when (00:19:12) actually the bit that's most important (00:19:14) is the dead bit they're dead that's why (00:19:16) we want to teach them Shakespeare's been (00:19:18) dead for 400 years and he's been (00:19:20) influencing literature for 400 years (00:19:22) which is why he's interesting the guy (00:19:25) who's writing right now I mean maybe one (00:19:27) day he'll be really inter interesting in (00:19:29) 400 years but right now it's Shakespeare (00:19:32) who's the guy we should be teaching but (00:19:34) because he's also white and male we jump (00:19:37) around and say oh my goodness we don't (00:19:38) want to teach him it's ridiculous and (00:19:40) it's also the case for Charles Dickens (00:19:41) and so on and the fact is that if you (00:19:43) want children to be British or American (00:19:47) you've got to look at your history and (00:19:49) teach them the history of your country (00:19:51) the geography of your country and the (00:19:53) literature and the artists and the (00:19:55) musicians and so on and so forth now of (00:19:58) course in America (00:19:59) um you do have more of a diverse (00:20:03) historical literature you know you've (00:20:05) got James Baldwin and you've got um May (00:20:08) Angelou and so on and so forth who you (00:20:09) can teach um less so in this country (00:20:12) there's there are little bits and of (00:20:14) course those can be taught but there's (00:20:15) less of it here but what's important is (00:20:18) not to choose people because of the (00:20:20) color of their skin but because they (00:20:24) they belong in the cannon because their (00:20:27) writing is such that it deserves to be (00:20:29) but you realize I mean just as you talk (00:20:31) you know you're pushing all these hot (00:20:33) buttons the very idea of a Canon the (00:20:37) very idea of making the Judgment call (00:20:40) that Shakespeare is great yes and you (00:20:44) know whatever novel came out five years (00:20:46) ago is not as (00:20:48) great that in other words if we're going (00:20:50) to talk about the values that that would (00:20:53) undergird uh the west or that would help (00:20:57) kids get educated you you're it's a it's (00:21:00) a mindfield for for people today because (00:21:02) they are troubled by these very ideas (00:21:06) yes no that's right because they see (00:21:08) everything through the lens of identity (00:21:09) politics and they don't understand that (00:21:12) people are so much more than their race (00:21:13) their gender their sexuality their (00:21:15) religion um and it's because they're all (00:21:18) clamoring up that mountain of victimhood (00:21:21) to try and claim that they are the (00:21:23) biggest victim when actually whatever it (00:21:26) is whatever obstacles there have been in (00:21:27) your life it may be race may be gender (00:21:30) it may be that your mother died when you (00:21:31) were 6 years old it may be that you know (00:21:34) you had a hard life at home and nobody (00:21:36) actually knows this you know the thing (00:21:37) about race is that it's obvious you can (00:21:39) see it on someone but there are a whole (00:21:41) variety of obstacles that people will (00:21:42) have been jumping over you know who who (00:21:45) may not be uh you know black or brown (00:21:48) Etc the fact is that um there are (00:21:52) obstacles it's what makes life (00:21:54) interesting frankly um it's through (00:21:57) jumping over those obstacles and (00:21:59) learning how to succeed despite those (00:22:01) obstacles that's what brings meaning to (00:22:03) your life you'll find many a trust fund (00:22:06) kid who ends up really quite depressed (00:22:08) and miserable because everything's been (00:22:10) given to them you don't want that right (00:22:13) what you want is not too many obstacles (00:22:16) because there too many that's to you (00:22:17) know but you want some obstacles and (00:22:19) then you want the skills and the (00:22:20) knowledge and the practice and the (00:22:22) habits to be able the habits of mind to (00:22:25) be able to overcome those obstacles and (00:22:27) the only way you do that is if you (00:22:29) stress test children put them in an (00:22:31) environment in a school which gives them (00:22:33) lots of knowledge and tests them on it (00:22:36) and gives them opportunities to try out (00:22:38) new things and to find the stuff that (00:22:40) inspires them so that they can make a (00:22:42) life for themselves but if you're going (00:22:44) around thinking oh my goodness but you (00:22:46) come from a poor background I can't (00:22:47) possibly give you homework because you (00:22:49) don't have a desk at home well great and (00:22:51) when they become functionally illiterate (00:22:53) well you you're to blame teacher because (00:22:55) you're the one that wouldn't stress test (00:22:57) them and you know I'm not saying it's (00:22:59) not harder for the kid who ends lives in (00:23:01) the inner city who doesn't have a desk (00:23:02) at home and whose dad beats his mom or (00:23:05) whatever it is yes it's harder for him (00:23:07) but that's the one life he's got we've (00:23:09) only got one life you've got to deal the (00:23:11) cards you've got right and then you you (00:23:14) got to make the most of it because (00:23:15) suddenly Bing in a minute you're 75 (00:23:19) right and that's (00:23:20) it you've (00:23:23) built you've (00:23:27) accomplished yet you know (00:23:29) deep down that no matter how much you've (00:23:31) gained there's no greater reward than (00:23:34) the joy of giving you understand that (00:23:37) true fulfillment lies not in what you've (00:23:39) amassed but in how you can use it to (00:23:41) make a (00:23:42) difference for over 40 years Waterstone (00:23:45) has turned your success into a lasting (00:23:48) impact together we are transforming (00:23:50) charitable assets like real estate (00:23:53) business interests and appreciated (00:23:55) Securities into resources that Advance (00:23:57) God's kingdom with our experienced team (00:23:59) and tailored strategies we make (00:24:01) generosity simple so your giving can (00:24:03) continue to grow and reach those that (00:24:05) need it most experience the true reward (00:24:08) of your (00:24:10) success start your giving Journey with (00:24:14) Waterstone now how big is the Michaela (00:24:17) School how many students are in the (00:24:19) Michaela and and what are the what's the (00:24:20) age range yeah so from 11 to 18 just (00:24:23) over (00:24:24) 700 um that's that's a big school yes uh (00:24:29) it's you you're really I mean that's (00:24:31) extraordinary and and I want to go back (00:24:34) to what I said in the introduction the (00:24:36) the kids are doing (00:24:39) spectacularly in other words even if (00:24:42) someone hates you and everything you say (00:24:45) the results are astonishing and (00:24:48) undeniable to the point where praise the (00:24:51) Lord the queen saw fit to uh give you (00:24:56) the CBE I mean obviously that's (00:24:59) extraordinary it's amazing um (00:25:02) so well the reason for that is because (00:25:05) of the influence we've had so it's not (00:25:06) just this one school we get um over 800 (00:25:10) visitors every year coming to visit the (00:25:12) school uh Americans come um but also (00:25:16) from across the world mainly Educators (00:25:19) who are coming to learn from us and to (00:25:21) see what we do and then they take those (00:25:23) ideas back to their schools and they (00:25:25) really improve what's happening in their (00:25:26) schools so have you codified this have (00:25:28) you written a book talking about what (00:25:29) you've done in the school we have we've (00:25:31) got two books battle him and the tiger (00:25:32) teachers and also the power of culture (00:25:34) which is our second book and um I mean (00:25:37) I've done many lectures and conferences (00:25:41) and so on and talk to I go to uh (00:25:43) conferences just for teachers and I give (00:25:45) them advice in fact I've been working (00:25:47) with a school in the Bronx uh called (00:25:50) vertex um and a man called Ian row uh (00:25:54) it's his school and he's it's a charter (00:25:56) school and he set it up to help the kids (00:25:58) of the Bronx and so I've been doing lots (00:26:00) of work with them to help them make it (00:26:02) into a similar sort of thing as what (00:26:04) we've got at Michaela um so I spent a (00:26:08) lot of time just spreading the word and (00:26:11) and we have changed things I'd say (00:26:13) across the country actually many of our (00:26:15) methods have now just become part of the (00:26:17) norm and it's what people do all over (00:26:19) the place and they don't necessarily (00:26:21) know it's come from Michaela but it's (00:26:23) now just part of the normal conversation (00:26:25) which is great to see um you know my (00:26:27) last frontier here so I've I've (00:26:29) convinced them on lineups I've convinced (00:26:31) them on silent corridors I've convinced (00:26:32) them on the various uh practical things (00:26:34) hang on silent corridors you've (00:26:37) convinced them on lineups you've (00:26:38) convinced them on silent corridors say (00:26:41) more about that because not everybody (00:26:42) watching will know what you're talking (00:26:44) about okay so as an example if you have (00:26:47) a challenging intake if you don't have a (00:26:48) challenging intake then you don't have (00:26:49) to worry about these things what do you (00:26:50) mean a challenging intake you're in the (00:26:52) inner city the kids come from (00:26:53) backgrounds that can be challenging in (00:26:55) those schools you will often have kids (00:26:58) beating each other up running down (00:27:00) corridors screaming doors slamming other (00:27:04) kids with the earphones in and the (00:27:05) phones on and it's just an absolute mess (00:27:08) now you go to a private school you you (00:27:10) won't find that because the kids are (00:27:11) coming from different sorts of families (00:27:13) so if you come to if you go to a school (00:27:15) where there are challenging families um (00:27:18) kids uh you've got to have um you've got (00:27:21) to be more strict and um so lineups at (00:27:25) lunchtime they're running around they're (00:27:26) playing how do you just open up the (00:27:28) doors and say everybody come in if you (00:27:30) do (00:27:31) that there's just tons of noise there's (00:27:34) there's there there physical attacks (00:27:37) kids get pushed and shoved and you have (00:27:39) a million incidents that you're then (00:27:41) chasing all afternoon trying to figure (00:27:43) out who punched who first and so on if (00:27:45) on the other hand you line them all up (00:27:48) and there's a whistle and there's order (00:27:50) and then the kids come in in their (00:27:52) lineups one by one each class going in (00:27:55) in an orderly fashion suddenly you have (00:27:57) no more incidents if you have silent (00:27:59) corridors now in the day when we used to (00:28:02) talk about silent corridors oh my (00:28:03) goodness I mean the progressives went (00:28:06) mad they used to say I hated children (00:28:08) and I just wanted to force them so when (00:28:10) you say silent CS what you mean is that (00:28:13) as the kids are going from class to (00:28:15) class through the hallway they're not (00:28:17) allowed to hang out gossip talk they (00:28:21) need to Simply go quietly yeah this this (00:28:24) seems you know to some Minds this is (00:28:26) extremely Draconian what are you (00:28:28) thinking of how can you possibly but but (00:28:30) it's a rule and you've enforced it yes (00:28:33) and what they do is they say morning so (00:28:34) they're not actually silent because we (00:28:36) say good morning good morning good (00:28:37) afternoon and um the teachers are around (00:28:40) the place morning sir morning Miss and (00:28:42) it's just very polite and nice it means (00:28:44) it's a minute and a half transition (00:28:46) period they get into their classrooms (00:28:47) and you know if you're an 11-year-old (00:28:49) with the reading age of a six-year-old (00:28:51) you need as much time as possible in (00:28:53) your classroom to be exposed to your (00:28:55) teacher who can then help you with your (00:28:56) reading so that it's a win-win so at (00:29:00) first those were the ideas that we were (00:29:02) pushing out there and in our books we (00:29:03) talk a lot about all of these ideas and (00:29:06) slowly because at first it was (00:29:07) scandalous but slowly over the years (00:29:09) people have come around to many of those (00:29:11) ideas and they have been implemented in (00:29:12) other schools these days I'm trying to (00:29:15) push the small C conservative values (00:29:17) point I'm having more difficulty with (00:29:19) that one because people feel deeply (00:29:21) uncomfortable with that word (00:29:23) conservative um my position is you know (00:29:26) what the left used to be small (00:29:28) conservative so the left used to be I (00:29:31) think about my own father very much a (00:29:33) man of the left um is a small SE I grew (00:29:36) up in a small sea conservative household (00:29:38) now it was a Caribbean household so uh (00:29:41) most people from the Caribbean are small (00:29:43) sea conservatives what is it to be a (00:29:44) small C conservative well you believe in (00:29:46) personal responsibility you are (00:29:47) responsible for yourself you own your (00:29:49) life you have agency you can have impact (00:29:52) on the world you believe in a duty (00:29:54) towards others that when you get a (00:29:56) detention you're not just letting (00:29:57) yourself down you're letting your whole (00:29:58) CL pass down you're letting your form (00:30:00) tutor down and you feel bad about that (00:30:02) and tomorrow you're going to do better (00:30:03) and you're going to be a better version (00:30:04) of yourself tomorrow than you were today (00:30:07) um we believe in sacrifice that you know (00:30:11) uh you might sacrifice something that's (00:30:13) really important to you for the sake of (00:30:15) the the whole so that everyone can be (00:30:17) happy um now these are all values that (00:30:20) once upon a time we all shared well (00:30:22) that's the thing that these are um (00:30:26) they're Western values they're they're (00:30:28) their their Christian values I would say (00:30:32) um and they were part of um of a shared (00:30:37) Heritage that you had here uh throughout (00:30:41) Europe uh in in in America and that it's (00:30:44) evaporated over the over the decades (00:30:46) that's right so you're effectively Going (00:30:48) Back to (00:30:50) Basics in other words it works you've (00:30:53) proved that it works and so why not do (00:30:55) what works but there are very people (00:30:58) very many people for whom these are um (00:31:01) they're they're troubled obviously for (00:31:03) some reason they're troubled because (00:31:04) they they're not now you you say or have (00:31:07) said (00:31:08) that that a lot of the I guess typically (00:31:12) white liberals they're less (00:31:15) concerned with helping the kids because (00:31:17) if they were only concerned in that then (00:31:19) they would say it works great do it then (00:31:22) somehow assuaging their own guilty (00:31:24) consciences something like that yes (00:31:26) absolutely so look identity politics um (00:31:31) is never about how things really are (00:31:34) it's about how things appear to be so I (00:31:37) think it's fascinating how Donald Trump (00:31:40) is in uh the White House and suddenly (00:31:43) all these Dei initiatives are falling by (00:31:46) the wayside immediately they just (00:31:48) suddenly it's like a deck of cards I I (00:31:51) have to say I'm amazed and it's almost (00:31:53) as if the American public never really (00:31:56) believed in any of these de initiatives (00:31:58) in first place all of the big KPMG and (00:32:01) Google and all of these institutions (00:32:04) suddenly no we we don't want these (00:32:05) anymore and I think well I thought you (00:32:07) really believed in them obviously you (00:32:08) didn't and that's because nobody (00:32:10) believes in this stuff it is all (00:32:12) performative it is all pretense (00:32:15) everybody's doing it because they don't (00:32:16) want to be called a racist they're not (00:32:18) doing it because they actually believe (00:32:19) that it's right right and so the thing (00:32:22) is all of this anti-racism I mean all (00:32:24) we're doing is lining the pockets of IB (00:32:26) X kendi and Robin D'Angelo and all these (00:32:29) people who are becoming billionaires out (00:32:32) of our stupidity and our inability to (00:32:34) stand up for what's right what they're (00:32:36) saying is wrong once upon a time we (00:32:38) wanted to not be racist that's what we (00:32:40) wanted but they say no you can't be not (00:32:42) racist you have to be anti-racist so (00:32:44) it's not good enough to just try and be (00:32:45) a good person it's not good enough to be (00:32:47) kind and be grateful for what you've got (00:32:49) all of the values that we teach our (00:32:51) children no no that's not good enough (00:32:53) you have to go out and seek out the (00:32:55) racism well I'll tell you what (00:32:57) anti-racism does it teaches us to be uh (00:33:01) performative because then put the Black (00:33:03) Box up on Instagram and I'm not a racist (00:33:06) put um put some Black Faces in my uh (00:33:09) Google uh team and I'm not a racist and (00:33:12) so it necessarily makes you performative (00:33:16) it is not about actually being a good (00:33:18) person you know a story that's (00:33:20) interesting your um American Kip the uh (00:33:24) Charter School Kip um hundreds of (00:33:27) schools across America we are inspired (00:33:29) at Michaela by Kip amazing the work that (00:33:32) they do in fact we even stole their (00:33:35) motto so their motto was and that's a (00:33:38) key word was their motto was work hard (00:33:41) be nice and when we opened in (00:33:44) 2014 we thought well we really like that (00:33:46) motto because you want all children to (00:33:48) work hard and also be nice but we (00:33:50) thought we can't keep that so what we'll (00:33:51) do is we'll call it work hard be kind (00:33:53) and so our motto is work hard be kind a (00:33:56) few years ago after George Floyd (00:33:58) Kip sadly removed their motto and they (00:34:02) no longer have the motto of work hard be (00:34:03) nice and the reason for this is because (00:34:07) um they were told that this was racist (00:34:10) it's racist for white teachers to teach (00:34:13) black kids to be nice because that means (00:34:16) you're teaching black kids to be (00:34:18) subservient so slaves in other way in (00:34:21) other words and so black kids can't be (00:34:23) nice I mean I the whole thing is just so (00:34:25) crazy it's it's absolute Madness I I (00:34:28) wanted to you're you're bringing up what (00:34:30) I wanted to to mention eventually at (00:34:33) your school at Michaela (00:34:36) um you teach kindness and gratitude yes (00:34:41) now it's an interesting thing because it (00:34:43) reminds me if CS Lewis at some well (00:34:46) before I mention that the idea of (00:34:49) teaching what we might call virtue yes (00:34:52) be I mean be nice is a very it's a (00:34:54) sloppy Modern Way of of of you're (00:34:57) talking about virtue be a virtuous (00:34:59) person be gracious be this be that (00:35:01) whatever that was (00:35:03) once uh part of the the world of (00:35:06) Education it wasn't just I'm giving you (00:35:08) information I'm teaching you how to be (00:35:10) exactly a a a better person in the world (00:35:14) so you teach kindness and gratitude and (00:35:17) I know in in my lifetime those ideas (00:35:20) people sneer at honor they sneer at (00:35:24) patriotism they sneer at virtue they all (00:35:28) that stuff somehow there's this cynicism (00:35:29) that's crept in um and and so you're (00:35:32) you're going against that but CS Lewis (00:35:34) in the abolition of man says something (00:35:37) like we sneer at honor and are shocked (00:35:41) to find traitors in our midst and and (00:35:43) that to me seems to be at the heart of (00:35:46) what we're talking about that there was (00:35:48) a time when everyone knew that you have (00:35:51) to teach kids these things because it (00:35:52) doesn't arise naturally thank you very M (00:35:55) very much Jean jaac rouso but it doesn't (00:35:58) come naturally out of us exactly and so (00:36:01) it has to be taught it has to be (00:36:03) enforced it has to be rewarded and (00:36:05) that's what you're doing yes and Russo (00:36:07) himself who had several children who he (00:36:09) put in orphanages and some of them died (00:36:12) and he took no interest in um yes he (00:36:15) would have done well to go to Michaela (00:36:16) frankly I mean the fact is that you do (00:36:19) need to teach these virtues because as (00:36:21) you say they're not natural and um they (00:36:24) also have to be (00:36:25) habitualized so uh every shower the (00:36:29) children stand up and give what we call (00:36:31) our appreciations they stand up they say (00:36:33) I'd like to thank my mom for waking me (00:36:35) up early this morning and then we then (00:36:37) they say on the count of two one two and (00:36:40) all the children clap and there's 200 (00:36:42) children there and then another one (00:36:44) stands up I'd like to thank Mr Smith for (00:36:46) giving me a detention because he's (00:36:47) taught me that actually I was a bit bad (00:36:49) at SS and such and now I've learned my (00:36:50) lesson on the count of two one (00:36:53) do and so they publicly Express this (00:36:56) gratitude which means means that the (00:36:58) whole atmosphere of the school is one of (00:37:01) I am grateful for what I've got got (00:37:03) however little it is and I know I have (00:37:06) more than somebody else as opposed to (00:37:09) I'm a victim it's not fair look at those (00:37:11) rich kids down the road who go to the (00:37:13) private school everybody's against me (00:37:15) and I'm really upset and miserable and (00:37:17) look at all my mental health problems (00:37:19) you know we don't do that it's so uh (00:37:23) it's so encouraging to to listen to you (00:37:26) and to to think uh (00:37:29) how how God has used you and is using (00:37:31) you I mean when you talk about 700 kids (00:37:34) uh in the school and then you talk about (00:37:36) it becoming part of a movement because I (00:37:37) was going to ask you I said this is (00:37:39) something that obviously if if the queen (00:37:42) uh you know now we say the queen do we (00:37:44) still say the queen I mean because now (00:37:46) it's the king it's Queen Elizabeth II of (00:37:48) course but that she (00:37:50) acknowledged what you're doing in you (00:37:53) what a what a glorious uh affirmation (00:37:55) what an extraordinary thing and I (00:37:58) it it it seems to just that would have (00:38:02) you know done a lot for for the movement (00:38:04) and so it gives me hope for for England (00:38:07) frankly yes but of course the work is on (00:38:10) the ground so it's about winning hearts (00:38:12) and Minds which is why we open up the (00:38:14) school and we have all these visitors (00:38:16) come and uh which is why I go to (00:38:18) conferences and I speak as I do um I (00:38:22) feel like I'm a traveling salesman going (00:38:23) around from place to place trying to (00:38:25) tell people what's possible because (00:38:28) I want people to understand that our (00:38:31) school is so much more than the results (00:38:33) because of course we have had the best (00:38:35) progress in the entire country for the (00:38:37) last three years and this has never been (00:38:39) done before and we even had uh results (00:38:43) um in terms of our top gcsec grades last (00:38:45) year that were of a similar percentage (00:38:48) to Eaton the top uh private school boys (00:38:52) boarding school in in England um we had (00:38:56) 52% (00:38:58) grade NES which is the top grade uh they (00:39:00) had 53% so um we're very proud of that (00:39:04) listen this is absolutely astonishing to (00:39:07) I mean really it is it's it's absolutely (00:39:09) astonishing um and I I didn't mean to (00:39:12) interrupt you but I'm just that's (00:39:14) magnificent it is but I'd say What's (00:39:17) even more magnificent is the people our (00:39:19) children become you know and that's (00:39:22) what's most important to me uh the the (00:39:24) environment that we have where children (00:39:26) are from all different races and all (00:39:28) different religions and they all get on (00:39:30) with each other and they don't see race (00:39:32) and religion as dividing them you know (00:39:35) and in a day and age where we there are (00:39:37) all kinds of problems around (00:39:39) multiculturalism uh I feel we've found (00:39:42) the secret to it and how to make it work (00:39:44) under an umbrella of conservative values (00:39:47) that we all buy into Under the Umbrella (00:39:49) of britishness where we have a British (00:39:51) flag flying outside and when the World (00:39:53) Cup is on we all are rooting for England (00:39:57) whatever our color whatever our religion (00:39:59) Etc um I think that those elements of a (00:40:03) school often people ignore and both on (00:40:06) the right and the left I'd say uh people (00:40:09) don't necessarily realize the impact (00:40:11) that schools have on a country and that (00:40:14) if you're fighting for your country and (00:40:16) you're fighting for the West schools (00:40:18) must be part of that conversation (00:40:20) because the future is the children isn't (00:40:23) it well that's I mean of course and (00:40:25) that's the that's the question you know (00:40:26) are is classical learning or or this (00:40:29) kind of learning traditional learning (00:40:31) the the the the future of the West I (00:40:33) mean I would answer my own question say (00:40:36) it has to be because where we've been (00:40:38) going uh clearly doesn't work you've (00:40:41) seen that I mean you you you've really (00:40:42) seen that um but the idea of teaching (00:40:46) virtue the idea of teaching (00:40:47) patriotism that's another one of those (00:40:49) things that has been sneered (00:40:52) at uh you know really since the 60s a (00:40:55) lot of this stuff has come into the (00:40:58) middle of (00:40:59) culture in the in the 60s basically like (00:41:02) a lot of this thing right and it's (00:41:04) anti-authoritarian all rules are bad yes (00:41:07) you've discovered no rules can be very (00:41:09) good actually and can can help people (00:41:12) there A lot of this stuff does come from (00:41:15) the 60s and the idea that you're (00:41:17) teaching these kids to be patriotic to (00:41:20) say like I I love my country my country (00:41:22) has a great heritage of course it's not (00:41:24) perfect the same in the United States (00:41:26) but not to celebrate it it's a little (00:41:28) sick actually but there's something (00:41:29) about the West I would say that it it's (00:41:32) tended toward this place where we are (00:41:35) now where it has the sort of the SE the (00:41:38) seeds of Destruction are are in it that (00:41:40) it it hates itself there's this kind of (00:41:42) guilt and self-loathing right and that's (00:41:44) that's what you're pushing against yes (00:41:46) and the thing is is that there's a (00:41:48) difference between authoritarianism and (00:41:50) being in Authority a mom or dad of (00:41:53) course they're in Authority what mom or (00:41:55) dad says to the toddler you get yourself (00:41:57) across the street I mean that's mad (00:41:59) obviously we're in charge you know and (00:42:03) it's it's just it's very strange the way (00:42:05) in which parents and teachers want to be (00:42:07) friends with their children yeah you (00:42:08) know there's a wonderful quote that says (00:42:10) you can be friends with your children (00:42:12) either when they are children or when (00:42:14) they are adults but you cannot be both (00:42:16) so you have to choose because if they (00:42:18) friends when they're children they're (00:42:20) not you're not going to like them when (00:42:21) they're adults you know we have a job to (00:42:23) do we have a duty as parents as teachers (00:42:26) we have a duty and too much of too many (00:42:29) of us have abdicated on the (00:42:30) responsibilities that we have so where (00:42:32) do he get all this stuff from it's (00:42:35) interesting you mentioned um (00:42:38) Christianity you know one of my um (00:42:40) teachers pointed out to me he said well (00:42:42) Katherine you know it is and it's also (00:42:44) interesting because various um people of (00:42:46) different religions will come to our (00:42:48) school and they'll say gosh you know (00:42:50) this really is a it's it's very Islamic (00:42:52) or they'll say oh it's very Hindu or (00:42:54) they'll say it's very Christian and I (00:42:55) suppose what they're recognizing is that (00:42:58) um great religions of the world (00:43:02) uh have taught similar sorts of values (00:43:06) even even if the theology is not the (00:43:07) same which it certainly is not (00:43:09) nonetheless the idea of virtue is there (00:43:13) the idea of morality yes is is there and (00:43:17) you you you've it sounds like you're (00:43:19) saying you you've seen this across the (00:43:22) world across different religions and (00:43:25) it's important somehow and yes so the (00:43:28) idea that it's not important that you (00:43:29) can have this (00:43:31) secular environment where we don't deal (00:43:34) with these issues of gratitude or (00:43:36) kindness or honor or that that that (00:43:39) simply doesn't work but so keep going it (00:43:42) seems to well I grew up in in a (00:43:43) Christian household my parents were (00:43:45) Christian um and those Christian values (00:43:49) I suppose have just embedded in me and (00:43:53) and I mean I'm first generation away (00:43:55) from because I wouldn't I'm not a (00:43:56) Christian but all of those values I sort (00:43:59) of take them for granted and and assume (00:44:01) that they're normal but actually I find (00:44:04) lots of atheists don't necessarily hold (00:44:06) those same values yeah and they and I've (00:44:10) just assumed they're normal and they're (00:44:11) not normal and in fact people get very (00:44:13) upset by (00:44:14) them and and I think we in the west have (00:44:18) um underestimated just how much uh they (00:44:22) have propped up what the West has been (00:44:25) and that we're sowing off that Branch (00:44:28) we're sitting on the branch and we're (00:44:30) sewing it off because we think we can (00:44:32) live without those values and the West (00:44:35) would not be the West without those (00:44:36) values and look I've seen what it does (00:44:39) for our children I've seen what it does (00:44:41) for our school um for our staff you know (00:44:46) uh it was lovely I just got this lovely (00:44:48) card from one of my teachers she's been (00:44:50) with us for four years and she's just (00:44:52) she's moving out of London with her new (00:44:54) family she's got a little toddler and um (00:44:58) and she at the end she said she was (00:45:00) explaining to me in the card that the (00:45:02) way in which what she does for her (00:45:03) little boy and her family is different (00:45:06) for having worked at Michaela because (00:45:08) her values have changed and at the end (00:45:10) she said you'll never know the impact (00:45:13) that you've had on my family but my son (00:45:15) will you know wow and it's just lovely (00:45:19) you you must have a sense that you were (00:45:21) born for this because just talking to (00:45:23) you that's the sense that I get because (00:45:25) it's no because it's one thing to have (00:45:27) ideas and to talk about ideas but you (00:45:30) know the world uh the the things happen (00:45:35) because of people uh and you seem (00:45:38) uniquely gifted to to be doing what (00:45:40) you're doing right now you you must have (00:45:42) a sense of that well that's very kind of (00:45:44) you to say I don't know I just try and (00:45:46) get through the day I I I I go around (00:45:51) like my traveling salesman case going (00:45:53) from place to place saying listen to me (00:45:55) schools are important children are (00:45:57) important (00:45:58) um and I just sort of keep going I don't (00:46:00) know I mean I'm just me R well I mean (00:46:03) yes that's that's from your perspective (00:46:04) but it seems to me that uh your your (00:46:08) personality um has a lot to do with uh (00:46:11) you know being able to do what you do (00:46:13) which maybe just seems you know somehow (00:46:14) normal but if we're very normal lots of (00:46:17) other people would be doing it so um (00:46:20) we're we're just about uh out of time so (00:46:24) let me ask you finally just just this is (00:46:28) a a question I do you do you do you (00:46:31) teach CS Lewis's Narnia books uh in the (00:46:33) school or are they considered I don't (00:46:35) know to something to to teach because I (00:46:38) I think they're so spectacular I can (00:46:40) hardly say Wonder no they're wonderful (00:46:42) so they're all in our library library (00:46:44) and and and all the children would have (00:46:45) read them um but because we start at 11 (00:46:49) you know n is perhaps for younger so but (00:46:52) the they they read them when they first (00:46:53) come they'll read them if they haven't (00:46:55) read them before and they are in our (00:46:56) library but we you know you would (00:46:58) probably teach them at elementary school (00:47:00) rather than at high school I guess so I (00:47:02) guess so I read them for the first time (00:47:04) when I was 30 so uh and I just think (00:47:07) that they're they they really sort they (00:47:10) they um embody so much of what we're (00:47:13) talking about that's that's what I love (00:47:15) about Louis it's just there and it's (00:47:16) beautiful and it's very British it's (00:47:18) it's interesting to me um so (00:47:22) well Katherine uh just a joy to meet you (00:47:26) and to hear about what you're doing uh I (00:47:28) look forward to seeing much more of it (00:47:31) thank you for being my guest yeah well (00:47:32) you'll be pleased to know CS Lewis is in (00:47:34) our staff Library so all the staff read (00:47:38) him too so well good good for you thank (00:47:41) you for having me thank you