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Title: Child Attachment Expert: We’re Stressing Newborns & It’s Causing ADHD! Hidden Dangers Of Daycare!
Duration: 02:38:37
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one in five children will not leave
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childhood without developing a serious
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mental illness anxiety depression ADHD
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behavioral problems and what pisses me
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off it's that we're not really educating
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or telling parents the truth as to why
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why is it that what you say is so
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troubling for some people sometimes
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facts are An Inconvenient Truth but
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everything I'm going to say is supported
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by research Erica Kamar is a parenting
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expert and psychoanalyst who uses over
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30 years of research to challenge the
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societal norms on parenting and Early
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Child Development there's some myths
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that really have to be debunked about
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how to raise a healthy child and the
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first is dayc care is good for children
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for socialization no it is so bad for
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their brain and it's been known to
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increase aggression behavioral problems
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attachment disorders because babies need
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their mothers SP the first three years
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for emotional security can a father do
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that so fathers are important in a
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different way and I'll go through all of
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that but they're both critical because
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if you're raised without one you are
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missing a piece and then there's quality
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versus quantity time myth you need to be
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there a quality of time as well as a
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quantity of time you can't have a
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fabulous career and then come home and
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be present for your child on your time
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it needs to be on their time and there's
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more and we're going to go through all
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of them but are there any areas of
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privilege that you need to acknowledge
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maybe someone who doesn't have a partner
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there or someone who is in an extremely
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difficult economic situation they do but
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there are ways to creatively deal with
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it and I'll go through each of them so
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there's
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this has always blown my mind a little
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bit 53% of you that listen to the show
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regularly haven't yet subscribed to the
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show so could I ask you for a favor
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before we start if you like the show and
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you like what we do here and you want to
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support us the free simple way that you
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can do just that is by hitting the
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Subscribe button and my commitment to
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you is if you do that then I'll do
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everything in my power me and my team to
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make sure that this show is better for
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you every single week we'll listen to
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your feedback we'll find the guest that
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you want me to speak to and we'll
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continue to do what we do thank you so
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much
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Erica you're clearly on a
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mission and I get that energy from you
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that there's really an idea that you
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believe that much of the world doesn't
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believe or is struggling to accept in
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some way but it's an important
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idea what is the mission that you're
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on I like to think of it as three PS
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presence prioritization and prevention
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and I'll go through each of them
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um my mission is to educate parents and
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uh policy makers and clinicians and
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Educators about the the fact that for
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children to be mentally healthy in the
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future you have to be physically and
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emotionally present for them throughout
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childhood but particularly in the two
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critical periods of brain development
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which are 0 to3 and 9 to 25 which is
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adolescence so in those two critical
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periods of brain
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development uh particularly 0 to3 um
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much of a child's development depends on
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their environment and you are their
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environment so I run around the world
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talking about the importance of physical
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and emotional presence attachment
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security attachment security is the
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foundation for future mental health
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prioritization we prioritize everything
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today other than our children we
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prioritize our work our careers uh our
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material success our personal desires
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and Pleasures but what we're not
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prioritizing is children um and you know
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that's a problem because if we don't
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prioritize them they break down they may
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break down at three they may break down
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at 8 or they may not break down till
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they're in adolescence but eventually
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they break down and prevention there's
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so much that we can do we have a mental
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health crisis now in the world it varies
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to a certain degree in America one in
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five children will not leave childhood
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without breaking down at some point
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without developing a serious mental
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illness anxiety depression ADHD
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behavioral problems um Suicidal Thoughts
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so uh we have a problem in the UK it's 1
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in six in America it's one in five it's
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around the world it's about one in five
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that is a shocking figure and so and and
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the truth is we can do a great deal to
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prevent that the idea that we are trying
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to put out fires without talking about
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what is the origin of these issues the
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way that the mental health care system
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works now it's like what I call cutting
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the grass uh children are medicated
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which is basically just pain management
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um they're given CBT therapy which again
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is just pain management but why aren't
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we asking the important questions which
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is where does emotional regulation
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originate where does it come from from
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when does it start how do we Foster
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development in children from a very
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young age to promote resilience to
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stress and adversity in the future and
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so those are my three
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missions and for someone who doesn't
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know your work and doesn't isn't aware
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of
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you they might be thinking how would you
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know Erica how would you know the answer
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so I'm a
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psychoanalyst um I'm also a social
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worker I started out as a social worker
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and then became a psychoanalyst I'm also
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an author of books on parent guidance
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and parents
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education um and I've been in practice
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seeing patience so the majority of my
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work is still seeing patience I have a
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fulltime job of seeing patience and uh
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as someone who is also a parent I have
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three children of my own um and so as a
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parent as a clinician uh as an author
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who has for the past 20 years been
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researching and what I did is I
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collected research in
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epigenetics and attachment Theory and
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Neuroscience and uh wrote my first book
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being there because what what happened
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is I was seeing this uptick and mental
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illness in children and this is really
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how I got into it um about 30 years ago
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I started practicing about 36 years ago
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but I was probably 5 years into my
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practice and I was seeing that the
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families that were coming to see me had
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younger and younger children that were
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being diagnosed with very serious mental
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illnesses and being medicated at a very
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young age basically silencing their pain
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and what I was observing in my practice
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is that those children who were doing
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the least well were the ones whose
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mothers were the least present in their
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lives so their primary attachment
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Figures were the least present in their
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lives and so then I started looking at
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the research I looked at all the
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Neuroscience research since the 90s and
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all of the new new research that had
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come out um I looked at the old
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attachment theories which have been
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around since the 60s and I looked at the
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epigenetic research which was rather new
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too and I saw this trend I I saw that we
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were abandoning our children for our own
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desires for our careers for material
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success um and there was a great deal of
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misunderstanding about the irreducible
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emotional needs of children we're going
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to go through all of that today I'm very
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excited to learn more about all of this
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I'm not a parent myself um from all the
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investigative research we've done you
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have three very well adjusted children
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um so congratulations for that and I
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hope to have successful children myself
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one day but I'm also just really
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interested in understanding myself
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through the work that you've done and
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the work that you continue to do because
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we're all at one point children and much
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of the Fingerprints of that early
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experience still exists in us today so
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I'm ke to understand how things that
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might have happened to me or anyone
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listening today when we were younger may
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have shaped Us in pro-social antisocial
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ways or productive or unproductive ways
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you mentioned that you still see clients
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and patients
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today what kind of patients do you see
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what are they struggling with and who
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are they are you seeing the parents the
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kids
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both well I have a very large parent
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guidance practice because of the books
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that I write um and the articles I write
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I also write for the Wall Street Journal
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and other newspapers so I you know
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people find me through my writing um and
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then they reach out for help um and and
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so I have the parent guidance basically
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means people come to see me either both
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parents or one parent because they have
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questions about their child's
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development or something's going wrong
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their child's starting to to develop
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symptoms um and they don't want to
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medicate them and they want to
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understand what's really at the root
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cause of of of of the issue and so
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that's a a good portion of my practice
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but I also see individual patients for
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depression and anxiety and I see couples
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and you know the joke about
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psychoanalysts is we're all specialists
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in depression and
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anxiety but um yeah so I see individuals
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and couples but a lot of parent guidance
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work and they come to you typically
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because there's they're noticing
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something is not right with their child
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sometimes they'll come preventatively
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because they want to raise a healthy
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child and there's so much white noise in
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society there's so much of
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misinformation our instincts are to lean
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into our children our evolutionary Drive
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is to create a feeling of Safety and
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Security for our children and to be as
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present as possible and to sooe them
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when they're in distress and to be there
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to teach them our values and but Society
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um took a turn it took a turn in the you
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could say going back to the Industrial
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Revolution if I really want to go back
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I'll say the Industrial Revolution was a
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time when women were forced into the
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workplace into factories and cities you
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know they were separated from children
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for the first time but really the turn
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that Society took that that I think has
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a lot to do with what's happening today
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is the me movement of the 60s and also
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the feminist movement both of those
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movements which had a tremendously
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positive impact on society in one way
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also had had a tremendously negative
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impact on society um when women decided
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that it was cool to go to work and to
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work full-time out of the home you know
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everybody cheered and said great you
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know women have the same rights as men
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and now everybody can be in the
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workforce and be independent and make
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money and do their own thing me me me me
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me the problem is that children were
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dropped they were abandoned and their
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needs which are not needs that are going
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to shift because Society shifts because
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they have
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irreducible uh neurological emotional
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needs so we know that babies are born
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neurologically and emotionally
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fragile and so what that means is
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they're not born resilient and today
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what's being projected onto babies is
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they can handle a lot they can handle
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stress they can handle
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separation um they can handle you going
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back to work after six weeks or three
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months and leaving them in daycare with
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strangers or you know and from an
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evolutionary
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perspective babies have always needed
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the physical skin-to-skin contact with
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their mothers for the first year and
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most parts of the world babies are worn
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on their mother's bodies because mothers
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perform a number of really important
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functions for babies that are biological
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functions based on our evolutionary need
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to provide our babies with what we call
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attachment security um so you know
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Society took a turn and it's it's um
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it's caused a lot of damage I mean this
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Mental Health crisis in children I saw
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coming 30 years ago and it was already
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you know so um you know I have uh
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friends and colleagues like Jonathan Hy
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who says oh well it didn't start till
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social media and that's false because I
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was seeing this uptick and if you really
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look there was an uptick in mental
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illness and children um going back
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decades and it had everything to do with
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the shift in society towards
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self-centeredness towards narcissism
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towards
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individualism towards M me me and so you
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know and I we say that you don't have to
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have children period to have a
(00:12:49)
satisfying life but if you're going to
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have children you need to be equipped to
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care for them because having children
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alone without really understanding what
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it means to care for them and being
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prepared to take on that
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responsibility is causing our children
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to break down why do you mention mothers
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and not fathers in that because you you
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seem to have an emphasis on the role
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that a mother plays and it seems to be
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more important in your view than the
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role that a father plays or maybe even
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that a nanny or some other caregiver
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could play and I noticed that on your
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first book which was written in
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2017 being there on the cover it says
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why prioritizing motherhood in big
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letters in the first three years matters
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scientifically evolutionarily with
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studies and research how can you make
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the case to me to make me believe that
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the role of the mother in particular is
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essential versus a father or other
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caregiver so in fact in the book it
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talks about the difference between
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mothers and fathers because that's an
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important question um and the reason I
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wrote about mothers is not because
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fathers are unimportant but fathers are
(00:13:57)
important in a different way so there's
(00:14:00)
a whole debate in society about this
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kind of idea of gender neutrality that
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mothers and fathers are interchangeable
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but actually from an evolutionary
(00:14:09)
perspective as mammals they're not
(00:14:10)
interchangeable they serve different
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functions and those roles and those
(00:14:15)
behaviors are connected to nurturing
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hormones so mothers um are really
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important for what we call sensitive
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empathic nurturing when children are
(00:14:24)
infants and toddlers that means that
(00:14:27)
when children are in distress mothers
(00:14:30)
soothe babies and therefore regulate
(00:14:34)
their emotions from moment to moment
(00:14:36)
every time a mother soothes a baby uh
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with skin-to-skin contact and eye
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contact and the soothing tone of her
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voice she's leaning into that baby's
(00:14:46)
pain and she is regulating that baby's
(00:14:48)
emotions and the way I like to think
(00:14:50)
about it is that you know when babies
(00:14:52)
are born they're
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born
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emotionally disjointed think about say
(00:14:59)
sailing in the Atlantic this is how
(00:15:01)
baby's emotions go they'll go from 0 to
(00:15:03)
60 in 3 seconds with their emotions um
(00:15:07)
and where we want to get babies is to
(00:15:10)
sailing in the Caribbean not flatlining
(00:15:12)
but we want them to be able to regulate
(00:15:15)
their emotions but they're not born that
(00:15:16)
way and so
(00:15:19)
mothers because they sooth the baby from
(00:15:21)
moment to moment when they're physically
(00:15:23)
and emotionally present enough in the
(00:15:25)
first three years they help a baby to
(00:15:28)
learn how to regulate their emotions so
(00:15:30)
by 3 years of age 85% of the right brain
(00:15:33)
is developed and by 3 years of age
(00:15:36)
babies can then start to internalize the
(00:15:38)
ability to regulate their own emotions
(00:15:40)
now if mothers aren't present as the
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primary attachment figures to do that
(00:15:46)
mirroring of emotion to do that soothing
(00:15:49)
of of their emotions then babies don't
(00:15:52)
learn how to regulate their emotions the
(00:15:54)
other thing that's important that
(00:15:55)
mothers do is they buffer babies from
(00:15:57)
stress by wearing ing them on their body
(00:16:00)
for the first year and then by being as
(00:16:02)
present as possible for three years they
(00:16:05)
actually protect baby's brains from
(00:16:08)
cortisol the stress hormone so there is
(00:16:11)
a a hormone called oxytocin it's the
(00:16:14)
love hormone and it is protective
(00:16:17)
against cortisol the more a mother
(00:16:19)
nurtures with sensitive empathic
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nurturing meaning when the baby cries
(00:16:24)
the mother goes oh sweetheart you know
(00:16:26)
let me see the boo boo let me kiss the
(00:16:28)
boo boo that that actually raises the
(00:16:31)
oxytocin in the baby's brain which then
(00:16:34)
protects the baby from cortisol can a
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father do that so now fathers why are
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fathers important so fathers also
(00:16:44)
produce oxytocin but it has a different
(00:16:46)
effect on their brain so for mothers
(00:16:48)
oxytocin makes mothers sensitive
(00:16:51)
empathic nurturers very Vigilant to the
(00:16:53)
baby's distress when fathers produce
(00:16:56)
oxytocin it comes from a different part
(00:16:57)
of their brain and makes them more what
(00:17:00)
we call playful tactile stimulators of
(00:17:03)
babies what does that sound like to you
(00:17:05)
playful tactful stimulators of babies
(00:17:08)
throwing the baby up in the air and
(00:17:10)
tickling the baby and running after the
(00:17:12)
baby and rough housing and so that's
(00:17:14)
important for a variety of reasons um
(00:17:18)
first it encourages things like
(00:17:20)
exploration and risk-taking it
(00:17:22)
encourages
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separation and fathers do this really
(00:17:27)
important thing which is they help the
(00:17:29)
baby to learn to regulate certain
(00:17:31)
emotions so mothers help to regulate
(00:17:33)
sadness fear distress fathers help to
(00:17:37)
regulate excitement and aggression so
(00:17:41)
when fathers aren't in the house when
(00:17:43)
there are single mothers raising
(00:17:44)
children without a father often little
(00:17:47)
boys develop behavioral problems is what
(00:17:49)
we're seeing that they can't regulate
(00:17:51)
their aggression because fathers help
(00:17:54)
little boys in particular but little
(00:17:56)
girls too to regulate aggression so when
(00:17:58)
fathers are aren't around you'll often
(00:18:00)
see little boys who are more impulsive
(00:18:03)
who are more aggressive um so the answer
(00:18:06)
is fathers and mothers are both critical
(00:18:10)
to the development of children which is
(00:18:11)
a very controversial thing to say today
(00:18:14)
because if you're raised without one you
(00:18:17)
are missing a piece but they're not the
(00:18:20)
same and they're not the same because
(00:18:22)
our hormones dictate they're not the
(00:18:24)
same so fathers produce a hormone in
(00:18:27)
great quantities called vasopress
(00:18:29)
vasopressin is the protective aggressive
(00:18:32)
hormone and what does it do it helps
(00:18:34)
fathers to protect their family there
(00:18:37)
was a study that was done where mothers
(00:18:39)
and fathers lay in
(00:18:41)
bed and the baby cries was out of the UK
(00:18:45)
this study the baby cries and the father
(00:18:49)
sleep through the baby's distress cries
(00:18:51)
but the mothers wake up right away okay
(00:18:55)
but with the rustling of leaves outside
(00:18:57)
the window the mother sleep through it
(00:18:59)
and the fathers wake up right away
(00:19:02)
because the fathers are attuned to
(00:19:03)
predatorial threat so our nurturing
(00:19:07)
hormones make us different I mean the
(00:19:10)
fact that we can say that there are many
(00:19:13)
things that are similar between women
(00:19:15)
and men of course we're both intelligent
(00:19:17)
we can both be
(00:19:18)
ambitious um but I think the idea that
(00:19:22)
we want to kind of make everything the
(00:19:26)
same when it's just not factual it is
(00:19:29)
the the Inconvenient Truth that mothers
(00:19:31)
and fathers nurturing hormones dictate
(00:19:34)
that if they are healthy and they've
(00:19:36)
been raised in a healthy environment
(00:19:38)
they are different now does that mean
(00:19:40)
that a father can't raise a child and be
(00:19:42)
a sensitive empathic nurture it it
(00:19:45)
doesn't mean he can't take on that role
(00:19:47)
but if as a society we can't acknowledge
(00:19:50)
the differences then a father can't
(00:19:52)
learn to be a sensitive empathic
(00:19:54)
nurturer meaning these are instinctual
(00:19:57)
behaviors and so that infant if that
(00:20:00)
father is going to stay home with that
(00:20:02)
baby acknowledging the differences
(00:20:04)
allows that father then to become a
(00:20:07)
sensitive empathic
(00:20:09)
nurturer so interesting because these
(00:20:12)
aren't the ideas that are socially
(00:20:14)
accepted or at least the ideas you see
(00:20:16)
on social media and funly enough as you
(00:20:17)
were speaking I recorded everything you
(00:20:20)
said and I ran it through Ai and AI said
(00:20:22)
the core ideas that you shared um are
(00:20:25)
well supported by evolutionary
(00:20:26)
Psychology and Neuroscience which is
(00:20:28)
quite surprising because usually
(00:20:30)
AI argues with people I mean so so the
(00:20:32)
thing is none of the books I write are
(00:20:34)
based on opinion so I'm I'm very
(00:20:37)
skittish about saying anything that
(00:20:39)
isn't backed up with research um so it's
(00:20:43)
everything that I write about and speak
(00:20:46)
about is is supported by research why is
(00:20:50)
it that what you say is so troubling for
(00:20:52)
some people have you you know why right
(00:20:54)
because it because it makes us confront
(00:20:56)
a set of realities that it's an
(00:20:58)
inconvenience Tru toore it's An
(00:21:01)
Inconvenient Truth um sometimes facts
(00:21:04)
are An Inconvenient Truth just like you
(00:21:06)
know Climate Change Is An Inconvenient
(00:21:08)
Truth um this is An Inconvenient Truth
(00:21:11)
it inconveniences people it also makes
(00:21:13)
people feel guilty so I don't believe
(00:21:17)
that guilt is a bad feeling I don't
(00:21:20)
believe that guilt is a Bad Thing guilt
(00:21:22)
is a sign that your ego is functioning
(00:21:25)
it's a sign that the part of you the
(00:21:28)
part of your ego called the super ego
(00:21:31)
can identify something that feels right
(00:21:33)
and wrong so if you look at a baby who's
(00:21:36)
crying who's your baby and you feel
(00:21:38)
nothing that means that there's a part
(00:21:40)
of you that is dead inside there's a
(00:21:43)
part of you that is unempathic towards
(00:21:46)
your own young and we would say that
(00:21:49)
that doesn't make that person a bad
(00:21:51)
person it makes that person someone who
(00:21:53)
probably had some early trauma
(00:21:55)
themselves right it means that they
(00:21:57)
probably have some kind of attachment
(00:21:59)
disorder where they can't be attuned to
(00:22:02)
their their baby's pain right so when
(00:22:05)
you are guilty it means you have
(00:22:07)
internal conflict it means two parts of
(00:22:10)
you are struggling with each other the
(00:22:12)
part of you that wants to do whatever
(00:22:14)
you want to do I want to go out to work
(00:22:16)
I want to make money I want to be free
(00:22:18)
you know and the other part of you that
(00:22:20)
says wait a second but my baby my baby
(00:22:23)
needs me look at my vulnerable baby look
(00:22:26)
how sad look at the distress that my
(00:22:29)
absence is causing that baby so if we
(00:22:32)
don't feel guilt then our species is
(00:22:35)
lost we're lost now excessive guilt is
(00:22:39)
another thing if you're a good enough
(00:22:42)
mother or a good enough father and you
(00:22:44)
still feel guilty then we call it
(00:22:46)
anxiety but for the most part what I say
(00:22:49)
makes a lot of women and men feel guilty
(00:22:53)
and again I don't see that as a bad
(00:22:55)
thing and I think when we tell parents
(00:22:58)
to turn turn away from their guilt
(00:23:00)
instead of turning toward it when we
(00:23:03)
turn towards our internal conflicts we
(00:23:06)
tend to make better decisions for
(00:23:08)
ourselves for our children for our
(00:23:10)
families um but when we turn away from
(00:23:13)
those conflicts we tend not to make good
(00:23:16)
decisions and those tend to have
(00:23:18)
long-term
(00:23:19)
consequences what exactly are you
(00:23:21)
inconveniencing with your
(00:23:23)
truth what are the ideas that you're
(00:23:26)
that you have to sacrifice time and
(00:23:29)
money and
(00:23:32)
freedom that if you want to raise
(00:23:34)
healthy children it's going to require
(00:23:36)
discomfort and frustration and
(00:23:39)
sacrifice and what's interesting is that
(00:23:42)
what's also happened is because we're
(00:23:44)
raising our children in such a selfish
(00:23:46)
self-centered
(00:23:48)
environment um young people are more
(00:23:51)
fragile they are more emotionally
(00:23:53)
fragile more of them have attachment
(00:23:55)
disorders they can't bear frustration
(00:23:59)
they can't bear pain they can't bear
(00:24:01)
sleeplessness you know the idea that you
(00:24:03)
have to get a baby nurse because you
(00:24:06)
can't get up in the middle of the night
(00:24:07)
with your own baby and that's become the
(00:24:09)
norm in certain socioeconomic circles I
(00:24:13)
mean
(00:24:14)
so women and men always raise children
(00:24:19)
in in history in extended family circles
(00:24:24)
right um they weren't isolated and today
(00:24:27)
parents are very isolated
(00:24:29)
so you would have your mother staying
(00:24:31)
with you or you'd have your sister
(00:24:33)
staying with you or you'd live in a big
(00:24:35)
house and there'd be people to support
(00:24:37)
you um I started a nonprofit uh recently
(00:24:42)
because I found that so many mothers
(00:24:45)
it's called attachment Circle so many
(00:24:47)
mothers feel so
(00:24:49)
isolated that dealing with the pain and
(00:24:52)
the discomfort of mothering alone is too
(00:24:55)
much for them so there is that so we
(00:24:57)
live in a very strange Society where
(00:25:00)
people are separate from one another in
(00:25:03)
their own houses and apartments and they
(00:25:05)
don't depend on one another because
(00:25:07)
dependency is a bad word and but there
(00:25:10)
there is also this issue of how are we
(00:25:14)
producing such frag fragile youth that
(00:25:17)
even the discomfort and the frustration
(00:25:20)
of raising children is too much for them
(00:25:23)
there's a big economic component to this
(00:25:25)
as well right because if you're raising
(00:25:27)
children in isolation the probability
(00:25:29)
that you have disposable income or at
(00:25:33)
least enough money to be able to just
(00:25:34)
stay at home and raise the kids and
(00:25:36)
still maintain any standard of quality
(00:25:39)
standard of life is lower if you're not
(00:25:42)
doing it with a big extended family that
(00:25:43)
can support and and pay for some of
(00:25:45)
those
(00:25:47)
costs interestingly yes and no to your
(00:25:51)
question um people who have less
(00:25:55)
economic resources are in general eneral
(00:26:00)
less isolated but they are also isolated
(00:26:03)
today you have a lot of single mothers
(00:26:05)
raising children not in an apartment
(00:26:09)
with other family members who've had to
(00:26:11)
move to other cities or countries to
(00:26:13)
make a living um who are really
(00:26:17)
isolated you know again it I I think it
(00:26:20)
crosses socioeconomic lines um but with
(00:26:25)
wealthier people more affluent people um
(00:26:29)
they're opting for isolation many of
(00:26:33)
them they're buying big houses they're
(00:26:35)
living in the suburbs or or they're not
(00:26:37)
wanting to lean on anyone right so we
(00:26:41)
have what I call a family diaspora it's
(00:26:44)
really what it is um which is that
(00:26:47)
people will move away from their
(00:26:50)
families of origin when they have
(00:26:51)
children which is very bizarre and anti-
(00:26:54)
instinctual so the world's become a
(00:26:57)
global place and we can move wherever
(00:26:58)
ever we want but doesn't it make Common
(00:27:00)
Sense isn't it a reasonable appause that
(00:27:03)
you would want to move closer to your
(00:27:05)
extended family even if they a pain in
(00:27:08)
the neck unless they're abusive um
(00:27:11)
because it provides you with support it
(00:27:15)
provides you with extended family
(00:27:16)
support but that's not what's happening
(00:27:19)
people are choosing to live
(00:27:21)
geographically distant from their
(00:27:24)
families of origin and so it's making it
(00:27:26)
harder for families it's making it
(00:27:29)
harder for women it's making them feel
(00:27:31)
more isolated but what if they they want
(00:27:33)
to they've got their own career they've
(00:27:35)
got their own passions there are things
(00:27:37)
that they love doing and that means that
(00:27:39)
they have to be working in a major city
(00:27:41)
or they have to be traveling to pursue
(00:27:44)
those things you just said it what if
(00:27:47)
they have passions what if they have a
(00:27:51)
career the problem is children do best
(00:27:54)
in extended family situations so you
(00:27:56)
know you can have a fabulous career and
(00:27:58)
move far away from your family and when
(00:28:00)
you're young and single and I even call
(00:28:03)
it single when you're married but don't
(00:28:05)
have children you're still really single
(00:28:07)
um you know what I say to parents is
(00:28:09)
that your life won't be so fabulous if
(00:28:13)
you have children and you're not present
(00:28:15)
for them physically and emotionally
(00:28:18)
particularly in the early years because
(00:28:20)
what happens is they break down and the
(00:28:22)
expression goes that a parent is only as
(00:28:25)
happy as their least happy child and so
(00:28:29)
there is no fabulous life if your
(00:28:32)
children are breaking down and that's
(00:28:33)
what families are learning is that you
(00:28:36)
know all of that
(00:28:38)
freedom and all that fabulous me time
(00:28:42)
comes at a cost if you have children so
(00:28:45)
one would say then well I just won't
(00:28:46)
have children then and that would be
(00:28:48)
fine and so there are a lot of people
(00:28:51)
that are saying today I don't see the
(00:28:53)
value in being responsible for another
(00:28:56)
human being and what they're missing out
(00:28:58)
on is the deep and rewarding emotional
(00:29:03)
connection to your children It's A Love
(00:29:05)
Like No Other Love But if you've
(00:29:09)
had if you've had trauma as a child if
(00:29:12)
you've had parents who were narcissistic
(00:29:15)
or resented parenting or uh you know
(00:29:20)
were distracted or mentally ill you know
(00:29:24)
you may already have had that trauma
(00:29:28)
that that implies that later it's harder
(00:29:32)
to connect right so those attachment
(00:29:34)
disorders that I was referring to
(00:29:35)
earlier there's three kinds of
(00:29:38)
attachment disorders there's the
(00:29:40)
avoidant attachment Disorder so what
(00:29:42)
does that mean so a healthy attachment
(00:29:44)
looks like
(00:29:45)
this um when you return home your child
(00:29:49)
feels so securely attached to you
(00:29:51)
meaning you've gone out for an hour or
(00:29:54)
two for dinner with your spouse you come
(00:29:56)
home and your baby is happy to see you
(00:30:00)
and the reunion what we call the reunion
(00:30:03)
is a beautiful reunion the baby is
(00:30:05)
joyful and happy and you know that's
(00:30:08)
healthy attachment it means that you've
(00:30:09)
made your baby feel so safe and secure
(00:30:11)
because you are there primarily and have
(00:30:13)
prioritize them the majority of the time
(00:30:16)
as the primary attachment figure that
(00:30:18)
when you come home your baby welcomes it
(00:30:21)
but what we're seeing is more and more
(00:30:23)
children developing attachment disorders
(00:30:26)
because their parents are push ping the
(00:30:28)
limits of how much they can leave those
(00:30:31)
babies and putting them in things like
(00:30:33)
institutional care and leaving them for
(00:30:35)
long hours at a time and traveling for
(00:30:38)
their fabulous careers than their
(00:30:40)
fabulous lives at ages when babies
(00:30:42)
really can't tolerate that kind of
(00:30:45)
Separation when a parent comes when the
(00:30:47)
primary attachment figure usually the
(00:30:49)
mother comes home and the baby turns
(00:30:52)
away from you and turns toward the
(00:30:55)
babysitter or to just turns away that
(00:30:58)
baby has the beginning of what's called
(00:31:00)
an avoidant attachment disorder now
(00:31:02)
that's correlated later on with things
(00:31:05)
like depression and difficulty forming
(00:31:08)
attachments later
(00:31:11)
on the next kind of uh attachment
(00:31:14)
disorder is called an ambivalent
(00:31:16)
attachment disorder and the mother then
(00:31:18)
comes home and the baby clings to the
(00:31:21)
mother for dear life because the
(00:31:24)
internal voice in that baby is my
(00:31:26)
Mommy's going to leave me again so I
(00:31:28)
have to hold on to her now that baby is
(00:31:30)
fractious and can't be soothed and will
(00:31:33)
not let go of that mother you know
(00:31:35)
holding on for dear life what I call
(00:31:37)
like the rees's monkeys did to the wire
(00:31:39)
cages right and that's correlated later
(00:31:42)
on with anxiety in
(00:31:46)
youth the disorganized attachment
(00:31:49)
disorder is different than the other two
(00:31:51)
in that the other two have a strategy so
(00:31:54)
think of an attachment disorder as a
(00:31:56)
strategy a child who's left for two many
(00:31:58)
hours by their parent or whose parent is
(00:32:01)
physically present but emotionally
(00:32:02)
checked out that baby has to cope has to
(00:32:06)
have a strategy turning away from the
(00:32:08)
mother is a strategy and the internal
(00:32:10)
narrative is my mommy isn't present for
(00:32:13)
me can't isn't isn't here for me won't
(00:32:15)
won't be there for me I can't trust my
(00:32:17)
environment and that baby says and I'm
(00:32:19)
going to have to uh cope on my own what
(00:32:23)
we call learned
(00:32:24)
helplessness um the ambivalent
(00:32:27)
attachment disorder you know that baby
(00:32:30)
is the strategy is you know I'm going to
(00:32:33)
hold on because if I don't hold on she's
(00:32:35)
going to leave again disorganized
(00:32:37)
Detachment disorder is the hardest to
(00:32:39)
treat um because the baby has no
(00:32:42)
strategy so the baby Cycles through many
(00:32:45)
strategies the baby will go from
(00:32:47)
clinging to avoiding to being enraged
(00:32:51)
and even slapping or hitting the mother
(00:32:53)
and then cycling through again um and
(00:32:56)
that baby that develops a disorganized
(00:32:59)
attachment disorder those are more those
(00:33:01)
babies it's correlated later with
(00:33:03)
borderline personality disorder and
(00:33:05)
we're seeing a huge rise in borderline
(00:33:08)
personality disorders and those are the
(00:33:10)
kids who are cutting themselves who are
(00:33:12)
trying to commit
(00:33:13)
suicide um we have a a mental illness
(00:33:17)
crisis the likes of which we've never
(00:33:19)
seen in history and it has everything to
(00:33:22)
do with how we're raising our children
(00:33:24)
you seem pissed off under that calm
(00:33:25)
demeanor pissed off yes I suppose I am
(00:33:30)
I'm not pissed off at the people I'm
(00:33:32)
pissed off at a society that is lying
(00:33:35)
we're not really educating or telling
(00:33:38)
parents the truth so there's four
(00:33:41)
attachment disorders avoidant secure
(00:33:45)
ambivalent disorganized well one secure
(00:33:47)
isn't a disorder so there's secure and
(00:33:50)
then there's three attachment disorders
(00:33:52)
avoid in bivalent disorganized yes how
(00:33:55)
does that manifest when you're an adult
(00:33:57)
so how would I know because you know I
(00:33:59)
can relate to some of these and I'm
(00:34:00)
wondering how that would then manifest
(00:34:01)
in my relationships with my life as an
(00:34:03)
adult outside of the obvious mental
(00:34:05)
health you know situations so avoiding
(00:34:09)
an avoiding attachment disorder would be
(00:34:11)
someone who um can't form meaningful and
(00:34:15)
deep connections can't commit has
(00:34:19)
difficulty committing has difficulty
(00:34:21)
trusting in the intimacy and the the
(00:34:25)
depth of intimacy in a relationship and
(00:34:27)
ambivalent an attachment disorder would
(00:34:30)
would be someone who's highly highly
(00:34:32)
anxious um someone who clings to you uh
(00:34:36)
calls you maybe uh a woman you've dated
(00:34:39)
in the past who called you five times a
(00:34:41)
day to check on you was worried that
(00:34:43)
you'd be the little fish that swam away
(00:34:46)
um and suffocate they suffocate the
(00:34:48)
people they love because they're afraid
(00:34:49)
to let go um disorganized attachment
(00:34:53)
borderline personality disorders they
(00:34:55)
tend to be very emotionally volatile
(00:34:58)
um there's a lot of anger there and um
(00:35:02)
and there's a lot of self harm self
(00:35:04)
Haring Behavior there do they end up
(00:35:09)
attracting a certain attachment style so
(00:35:11)
if I'm an avoidant do I then end up
(00:35:13)
attracting avoidance or do I is there
(00:35:15)
any research on that on how we then date
(00:35:18)
I'm guessing secures go for secures yeah
(00:35:20)
secures well if you're healthy you're
(00:35:22)
attracted to reciprocally healthy
(00:35:24)
relationships and you trust your
(00:35:26)
environment so you trust in loving
(00:35:27)
relationship ships and um
(00:35:31)
avoidance sometimes are attracted to
(00:35:34)
avoidant people because there's no
(00:35:36)
conflict there so in other words someone
(00:35:38)
who can't commit with someone also who
(00:35:40)
can't commit um that can break down
(00:35:43)
those at some point so remember that
(00:35:45)
these are pathological defenses so you
(00:35:48)
know we use the word defense because it
(00:35:49)
means to protect one right and and
(00:35:53)
defenses help us until they no longer
(00:35:55)
help us and so we say attachment to
(00:35:58)
disorders are pathological defenses
(00:36:00)
meaning they don't usually last a
(00:36:02)
lifetime they break down at some point
(00:36:06)
and so you might be with another
(00:36:08)
avoiding attachment disordered person
(00:36:11)
but at some point one of you breaks down
(00:36:14)
and then realizes that you need the
(00:36:16)
other and then you know then you're with
(00:36:19)
in a relationship with someone who can't
(00:36:21)
give back so yeah as we say like levels
(00:36:24)
of water meat so people will be
(00:36:27)
attracted to another often of the same
(00:36:29)
ilk but but it isn't necessarily a
(00:36:32)
healthy
(00:36:33)
relationship and of all these four
(00:36:35)
attachment Styles who do you think which
(00:36:38)
attachment style from in your opinion
(00:36:40)
and from your observations and the
(00:36:41)
people that you've seen is most likely
(00:36:43)
to have a successful and then also
(00:36:45)
unsuccessful relationship oh well secure
(00:36:48)
attachment will have a successful I mean
(00:36:51)
secure people with secure attachment uh
(00:36:54)
will be drawn to healthy reciprocal
(00:36:57)
loving
(00:36:59)
um deep connections because they've had
(00:37:01)
a deep and loving connection with their
(00:37:03)
mother so remember I said that you it's
(00:37:06)
only after 3 years of age that you
(00:37:07)
internalize a feeling of
(00:37:10)
security and where you internalize a
(00:37:12)
feeling that the world is a safe place
(00:37:15)
and you can trust the people in it and
(00:37:18)
you can trust to love another person and
(00:37:22)
so you know we we throw that word trust
(00:37:24)
around we don't realize that it comes
(00:37:26)
from the very beginnings of our de
(00:37:28)
development when we don't trust others
(00:37:31)
it's generally because we couldn't trust
(00:37:34)
those that we were to depend upon when
(00:37:37)
we were at our most vulnerable stage and
(00:37:41)
what about the the alternative so if
(00:37:43)
which of these attachment Styles is
(00:37:45)
least likely to have successful
(00:37:47)
relationships that's disorganized yeah
(00:37:50)
they have a very hard time forming
(00:37:52)
relationships holding on to
(00:37:53)
relationships um yeah I would say it's
(00:37:57)
it's they're the most
(00:37:58)
complicated to treat and they're also
(00:38:01)
the most complicated in terms of you
(00:38:04)
know being able to have successful
(00:38:05)
relationships in the future I was
(00:38:08)
wondering as you were speaking whether
(00:38:09)
if I have more kids so if I have 10
(00:38:12)
young kids yeah is there a higher
(00:38:14)
probability that of neglect in those
(00:38:16)
kids because I just if if I'm a mother I
(00:38:18)
just don't have time for all of these
(00:38:20)
kids at the same time they can't all be
(00:38:22)
on my chest at the same time yeah it's
(00:38:24)
it's a good question well there's
(00:38:25)
something in the developing world called
(00:38:27)
maternal dep syndrome which is that
(00:38:29)
mothers can actually die in the
(00:38:30)
developing world of having too many
(00:38:32)
children in Too Short a period of time
(00:38:34)
uh they get depleted physically but they
(00:38:36)
also get depleted emotionally I'm going
(00:38:39)
to say it right now so everybody can
(00:38:40)
hear it who's watching this having
(00:38:43)
children is stressful it is
(00:38:46)
frustrating it does require that you are
(00:38:49)
Sleepless for the first five years it
(00:38:52)
requires that you can tolerate a lot of
(00:38:54)
discomfort and
(00:38:55)
frustration so if there was a job
(00:38:58)
description first it would say the most
(00:39:01)
joyful uh
(00:39:03)
enriching thing you can do in your
(00:39:05)
entire life but what comes with that to
(00:39:10)
Foster healthy development is
(00:39:12)
frustration lack of sleep
(00:39:14)
stress uh discomfort and so that should
(00:39:18)
be part of the job
(00:39:19)
description yeah it seems to be such an
(00:39:22)
important principle for Life generally
(00:39:24)
that everything has an A tradeoff and I
(00:39:26)
think was it Einstein that said for
(00:39:28)
every Force has like an equal and
(00:39:30)
opposite counter force or something to
(00:39:32)
to that effect and a lot of people are
(00:39:35)
choosing not to make the decision to
(00:39:37)
have kids I was looking at some stats
(00:39:39)
around this the European Union witnessed
(00:39:41)
only 3.8 million births in 2022 nearly
(00:39:44)
half the number recorded six decades ago
(00:39:48)
marking one of the lowest birth rates in
(00:39:50)
history France for example known for its
(00:39:52)
robust family policies has seen a
(00:39:54)
decrease from 830,000 children
(00:39:57)
born in 2010 to just
(00:40:00)
670,000
(00:40:02)
2023 the lowest since World War II and
(00:40:05)
this is a huge Global Trend across
(00:40:08)
especially countries that have a lot of
(00:40:10)
money it is so I speak at a big
(00:40:12)
conference called The Alliance for
(00:40:14)
responsible citizenship and they talk
(00:40:16)
about a lot of these alarming dropping
(00:40:19)
birth rates the truth is though that uh
(00:40:22)
as countries become more developed birth
(00:40:26)
rates do decline to a certain degree ree
(00:40:28)
that has to do with economics some of it
(00:40:30)
but there's a trend that's happening
(00:40:32)
that's worse than this which is people
(00:40:35)
it's not that they're having less
(00:40:36)
children which actually you know
(00:40:39)
everybody has their own limits in terms
(00:40:42)
of their capacity to give and to love
(00:40:45)
and so for some people maybe one child
(00:40:48)
is enough for other people five children
(00:40:50)
isn't enough meaning they have so much
(00:40:52)
inside of them to give right um but the
(00:40:56)
alarming thing for me isn't the dropping
(00:40:59)
birth rates due to economics you know so
(00:41:01)
maybe people aren't having 10 children
(00:41:04)
like they used to they're having three
(00:41:06)
children or two children right the
(00:41:09)
alarming thing for me is that people are
(00:41:11)
not having
(00:41:13)
children that's more alarming to me
(00:41:15)
because that's more a sign not of a
(00:41:18)
country
(00:41:19)
developing but of a country and a
(00:41:22)
society of a modern society which does
(00:41:25)
not see the value in in raising children
(00:41:31)
and having deep and loving relationships
(00:41:34)
be a priority in your life those people
(00:41:38)
would say I have deep and loving
(00:41:39)
relationships with my partner with my
(00:41:41)
dog with my Uncle Auntie friends Etc
(00:41:45)
it's different and why is it different
(00:41:47)
it's a good question it's different
(00:41:49)
because um in the end your relationship
(00:41:52)
with your partner or with your auntie or
(00:41:54)
with your dog isn't the same level of
(00:41:58)
dependency the ability to care for
(00:42:00)
another human
(00:42:02)
being uh to allow another human being to
(00:42:05)
be dependent on you to devote to that
(00:42:08)
human being is a growing transforming
(00:42:12)
experience for human beings one would
(00:42:14)
say
(00:42:15)
that not sure I completely buy this
(00:42:18)
fully because but Jordan Peterson I
(00:42:21)
think has said I think it was Jordan who
(00:42:23)
said that you can't fully become an
(00:42:25)
adult if you don't have a child now I'm
(00:42:28)
not sure I would go that far because
(00:42:30)
there's some people who can't have
(00:42:31)
children but I do think that there is
(00:42:34)
something in terms of developmentally on
(00:42:37)
an adult development level that
(00:42:40)
transforms you that is meant to to
(00:42:43)
transform you in being generative and
(00:42:46)
having children again it's not for
(00:42:48)
everyone and I do say this that um I'm
(00:42:52)
not part of the pr nality movement where
(00:42:54)
I say everybody should have children I
(00:42:56)
don't think everybody should have
(00:42:58)
children but I do think that if you're
(00:43:01)
going to have
(00:43:02)
children then you need to look deeply at
(00:43:07)
your own upbringing and your own losses
(00:43:09)
and your own early traumas before you
(00:43:12)
bring them into this world so you can
(00:43:15)
repair whatever it is you need to repair
(00:43:18)
and not uh create what we call
(00:43:20)
generational expression of things like
(00:43:23)
attachment disorders and mental illness
(00:43:25)
and cuz a lot of people are struggling
(00:43:27)
now have kids even those that want to
(00:43:29)
yeah um looking at some stats and
(00:43:31)
there's a global prevalence of
(00:43:32)
infertility approximately 18% of adults
(00:43:36)
worldwide about one in six experience
(00:43:38)
infertility at some point in their lives
(00:43:40)
yeah between 2015 and 2019 about roughly
(00:43:44)
15% of us women aged 15 to 49
(00:43:46)
experienced impaired fertility and in
(00:43:48)
the UK Research indicates that one in
(00:43:50)
eight women listening to this now and
(00:43:52)
one in 10 men aged 16 to 74 have
(00:43:54)
experienced infertility which is defined
(00:43:56)
as unsuccessfully attempting pregnancy
(00:43:58)
for a year or
(00:44:00)
longer and I've spoken to a lot of
(00:44:02)
people actually that have tried to have
(00:44:04)
kids yeah for years very sad it's very
(00:44:07)
sad when people want children and they
(00:44:09)
can't have children it is incredibly sad
(00:44:12)
when you think about what's contributing
(00:44:13)
to that what how do you diagnose that
(00:44:16)
infertility challenge there are a lot of
(00:44:17)
theories some are environmental some are
(00:44:20)
the fact that we're delaying having
(00:44:22)
children we're lying to women and to men
(00:44:25)
we're telling them freeze your eggs in
(00:44:28)
fact this is a little disturbing I'll
(00:44:30)
tell you about this that law firms now
(00:44:33)
are um paying for the freezing of their
(00:44:36)
young female Associates
(00:44:39)
eggs I find that disturbing um saying
(00:44:43)
freeze your eggs work really hard for us
(00:44:46)
yeah you can have children later and the
(00:44:49)
truth is a lot of them can't because
(00:44:52)
when you freeze eggs it's not a
(00:44:54)
guarantee of fertility it's not a
(00:44:57)
guarantee that those eggs will turn into
(00:44:58)
embryos it's not a guarantee that those
(00:45:00)
embryos will turn into babies so there's
(00:45:03)
the age piece um there is also and
(00:45:07)
there's the environmental piece there is
(00:45:08)
also the stress piece which we are not
(00:45:11)
talking about um there's a component to
(00:45:14)
getting pregnant that is about stress we
(00:45:17)
have more stress on both men and women
(00:45:21)
you know it used to be that men died
(00:45:22)
sooner because they had more stress but
(00:45:25)
now I think it's evened out the odds I
(00:45:26)
think women make die sooner because they
(00:45:29)
have the stress of working and raising
(00:45:30)
children for the most part um but the
(00:45:33)
point is that that uh the stress that
(00:45:38)
young adults face because they're trying
(00:45:40)
to you know we should talk about some of
(00:45:43)
the other myths what's another myth
(00:45:45)
we'll weave it through this talk another
(00:45:47)
myth is you can do everything all at the
(00:45:51)
same time and do it well myth that's a
(00:45:54)
big myth you can't you can't have a
(00:45:58)
fabulous career working full-time and
(00:46:02)
traveling and being fabulous and raise
(00:46:05)
healthy children the good news is life
(00:46:08)
is long you may live till 120 like Moses
(00:46:12)
and I think of your generation you're
(00:46:14)
younger than me but um I think you
(00:46:16)
probably will live well over a hundred
(00:46:19)
um and so what that means is you have
(00:46:22)
many many many many many many years to
(00:46:25)
have a fabulous career when your
(00:46:27)
children don't need you so much but you
(00:46:29)
have a very small
(00:46:31)
window to create that emotional security
(00:46:35)
for your children that will be the core
(00:46:37)
of them you know we talk a lot about
(00:46:39)
your physical core and core training
(00:46:41)
this is your emotional core this is the
(00:46:44)
emotional core of human beings
(00:46:47)
attachment security and a feeling of
(00:46:50)
safety that you can rely on the people
(00:46:53)
who you need most in the world to be
(00:46:55)
there when you need them that is your
(00:46:58)
emotional
(00:46:59)
core how did you manage your mother of
(00:47:02)
three you've raised three very wonderful
(00:47:04)
well adjusted children but you're also
(00:47:06)
successful yeah you have books you
(00:47:09)
you're you're traveling around the world
(00:47:10)
you said so I'm a good example um I had
(00:47:14)
a career when I was in my 20s
(00:47:17)
um and I got married when I
(00:47:22)
was I met my husband when I was 27 and I
(00:47:25)
got married when I was just shy of 30 or
(00:47:27)
I was
(00:47:28)
30 um and then we had children in our
(00:47:33)
30s uh so before we had children I was
(00:47:36)
working I was seeing something like 40
(00:47:38)
hours of patience a week and I was
(00:47:41)
working into the we hours of the night I
(00:47:43)
would work till 11:00 at night coming
(00:47:44)
home
(00:47:45)
exhausted then we had children but it
(00:47:47)
was an agreement that we had that when
(00:47:50)
we had babies I would take a good long
(00:47:52)
period off and then really go back very
(00:47:56)
very very minimally and I had the kind
(00:47:58)
of career by choice that I could have
(00:48:02)
control over and be it could be flexible
(00:48:04)
and I could control it and so I took six
(00:48:08)
months off with each child and then
(00:48:11)
after six months only went back to work
(00:48:14)
an hour and a half a day five days a
(00:48:16)
week so just we had an agreement my
(00:48:19)
husband and I which is it would be just
(00:48:21)
enough to pay a mother's helper a nanny
(00:48:24)
and so and we did without in those years
(00:48:27)
we did without vacations we did without
(00:48:30)
you know second homes we did without
(00:48:33)
fancy clothes we did without the other
(00:48:35)
things that many of our peers were
(00:48:38)
getting and traveling and doing we said
(00:48:41)
what's important to us is that we pair
(00:48:43)
down not expand now this is we're
(00:48:46)
expanding as parents so we want to pair
(00:48:48)
down materially life is long and you can
(00:48:51)
have a successful career some of the
(00:48:53)
women that I interview for my book are
(00:48:56)
women who didn't even start their
(00:48:58)
careers until they were in their 40s
(00:49:00)
after they had children that were older
(00:49:03)
could it have worked if your husband
(00:49:05)
stayed home instead of you in your view
(00:49:07)
because I'm trying to understand if
(00:49:09)
you're saying that dads don't need to be
(00:49:10)
as their present as much as the mother
(00:49:14)
they have to be there in a different way
(00:49:17)
in the early days men don't breastfeed
(00:49:20)
so that's the first thing unless you can
(00:49:22)
show me a man who has grown breasts and
(00:49:24)
can actually breastfeed maybe it's
(00:49:26)
coming I don't know but for now um
(00:49:30)
women's bodies connect them to their
(00:49:33)
babies they connect them through birth
(00:49:35)
they connect them through breastfeeding
(00:49:37)
there is a physical component and a
(00:49:40)
hormonal component to infancy and
(00:49:42)
motherhood and there really is a
(00:49:44)
difference in the way that mothers
(00:49:47)
respond to babies and fathers respond to
(00:49:50)
babies now when the fathers become
(00:49:53)
really important it's not that the
(00:49:56)
father isn't important to give the
(00:49:57)
mother a break or to bond with the baby
(00:50:00)
or to bathe the baby but what that baby
(00:50:03)
needs is that attachment security to
(00:50:06)
that primary attachment figure so the
(00:50:09)
mother usually the mother sometimes it's
(00:50:11)
the father but usually the mother
(00:50:13)
fathers with their playful tactile
(00:50:16)
stimulation they become really important
(00:50:18)
when children become mobile when
(00:50:20)
children start to crawl and toddle when
(00:50:24)
they're around 18 months to 2 years old
(00:50:28)
fathers become incredibly exciting and
(00:50:32)
they're really important so when fathers
(00:50:33)
aren't around in those days um when
(00:50:36)
children are starting to explore the
(00:50:38)
world those children have a harder time
(00:50:41)
separating from mothers so it's really
(00:50:43)
important to have what we said the yin
(00:50:44)
and the Yang what we are doing now is we
(00:50:48)
are um not prioritizing attachment
(00:50:51)
security which is the foundation for
(00:50:54)
then healthy separation and when healthy
(00:50:57)
separation starts fathers are critical
(00:51:00)
when you have another child a second
(00:51:02)
child fathers are critical because
(00:51:05)
fathers seduce the older child they say
(00:51:07)
come on let's go out and play Let's go
(00:51:09)
kick the soccer ball let's go to the
(00:51:11)
swing set and they give a space to the
(00:51:13)
mother with the next baby they help the
(00:51:16)
older children to grow up earlier on you
(00:51:19)
mentioned a study that I read about when
(00:51:20)
I was studying psychology Once Upon a
(00:51:22)
Time which is the Reus the reesus monkey
(00:51:25)
study with the wire mother for anybody
(00:51:27)
that's never heard about that study I
(00:51:28)
think it's quite important to understand
(00:51:29)
the profound impact that touch and um
(00:51:33)
well that was an attachment study yeah
(00:51:35)
what was it what's what's touch called
(00:51:37)
from in a in the Science World skin to
(00:51:39)
skin skin to skin can you give me an
(00:51:42)
overview of that study and what it
(00:51:44)
showed for people that aren't aware of
(00:51:45)
it well they took these baby reesus
(00:51:48)
monkeys and they they let some be with
(00:51:51)
the mothers and the mothers nurtured
(00:51:53)
those babies and those babies became
(00:51:56)
healthily attached and secure and those
(00:51:59)
were the healthy emotionally Healthy
(00:52:01)
Babies then they gave um another subset
(00:52:05)
of monkeys um a wire mother covered with
(00:52:09)
a piece of cloth or fur or something and
(00:52:14)
those babies became very neurotic but at
(00:52:16)
least they were clinging they became
(00:52:18)
like the ambivalent attachment babies
(00:52:20)
because there was no response from the
(00:52:22)
mother but at least they were holding on
(00:52:23)
to this mother and then they gave and
(00:52:26)
these Bab babies became very neurotic
(00:52:28)
and then they gave the subset of babies
(00:52:31)
nothing and those babies literally lost
(00:52:35)
their
(00:52:36)
minds and um I mean there are other
(00:52:39)
studies which are more recent than that
(00:52:41)
that's quite an old study there there is
(00:52:43)
a researcher named Michael meanie he did
(00:52:45)
a study on licking and grooming animals
(00:52:47)
who lick and groom their young meaning
(00:52:49)
are nurturing skinto skin lick and groom
(00:52:52)
uh in human terms that would be holding
(00:52:54)
touching loving skin skin those uh if if
(00:52:59)
a mother licked and groomed her
(00:53:01)
young that baby would become more
(00:53:04)
resilient to stress in the future the
(00:53:07)
babies who were not licked and groomed
(00:53:09)
by their mothers become became less
(00:53:12)
resilient to stress in the future in
(00:53:14)
addition the babies who were more
(00:53:16)
resilient to stress because their
(00:53:18)
mothers had licked and groomed them
(00:53:20)
passed down generationally the ability
(00:53:23)
to lick and groom the Next
(00:53:25)
Generation what happened to the baby who
(00:53:27)
weren't licked and groomed guess what
(00:53:29)
happened they didn't pass it down right
(00:53:32)
and that's what's happening to humans
(00:53:35)
today if we don't lick and groom our
(00:53:37)
babies I mean you know take it for
(00:53:40)
whatever um if we don't lick and groom
(00:53:42)
our babies it we don't pass on
(00:53:46)
resilience to stress and adversity but
(00:53:48)
we also don't pass on the desire to lick
(00:53:50)
and groom you're to have babies your
(00:53:53)
story going back to your story which we
(00:53:54)
were talking about are there any areas
(00:53:56)
of privilege that you need to
(00:53:58)
acknowledge that someone else listening
(00:53:59)
to this now goes yeah but that's all
(00:54:01)
right for you because you know maybe
(00:54:03)
someone who didn't have a partner there
(00:54:06)
or someone who is in
(00:54:10)
a difficult economic situ extremely
(00:54:14)
difficult economic situation living in
(00:54:16)
the projects in Harlem or something I
(00:54:19)
really want to I'm saying this because
(00:54:22)
well it's not the mothers and the
(00:54:23)
projects in Harlem because I'll tell you
(00:54:24)
the mothers in the projects in Harlem
(00:54:27)
stay home with their babies that's
(00:54:28)
what's interesting very poor people in
(00:54:31)
America so let me just say I love
(00:54:34)
America America sucks and I'll tell you
(00:54:37)
why America sucks from my perspective
(00:54:38)
and I say this internationally I go
(00:54:40)
around the world saying America sucks
(00:54:43)
and I'm going to tell you why um we are
(00:54:45)
the only country in the world other than
(00:54:48)
Papa new guini who does not have a paid
(00:54:51)
parental maternity leave we do not have
(00:54:53)
paid maternity
(00:54:55)
leave nobody cares about children they
(00:54:58)
care about the GDP and the bottom line
(00:55:00)
and the people who are out there talking
(00:55:02)
about this stuff are economists saying
(00:55:05)
women have to work work work for the
(00:55:07)
economy nobody cares about children
(00:55:09)
because if we cared about children our
(00:55:12)
tax money would be in paid leave not for
(00:55:16)
three months not for six months for at
(00:55:19)
least a year and hungry they have three
(00:55:21)
years Slovenia
(00:55:23)
Slovakia um Estonia has three years
(00:55:26)
Hungary I think has 2 years of paid
(00:55:28)
leave Sweden I have some issues with
(00:55:30)
Sweden but Sweden has 14 months Sweden
(00:55:33)
after 14 months makes women go back to
(00:55:36)
work full full full-time and put them in
(00:55:37)
institutional care and all those babies
(00:55:39)
are breaking down so 14 months isn't
(00:55:42)
even enough so but if we could even get
(00:55:45)
to a civilized place of one year of paid
(00:55:47)
leave in this
(00:55:48)
country and then the next two years some
(00:55:52)
way that parents could be complemented
(00:55:56)
so they could part-time supplemented so
(00:55:58)
they could work part-time um you know
(00:56:01)
I'm a I'm a reasonable realistic person
(00:56:04)
I know this country is never going to go
(00:56:05)
for three years of pay leave even though
(00:56:07)
I would love them to I also know that
(00:56:09)
this country isn't going to go for an
(00:56:11)
entitlement called pay leave because
(00:56:14)
that's the kind of country we are we
(00:56:15)
talk a big game but we don't want to put
(00:56:16)
our money where mou this there is the
(00:56:19)
possibility now that the Republicans are
(00:56:22)
in of a creative solution which is
(00:56:26)
potentially using things like Social
(00:56:29)
Security in advance borrowing from your
(00:56:32)
social security so I'm a
(00:56:34)
mom and I say ah to stay home I can
(00:56:39)
borrow from my social security for a
(00:56:42)
year and then work a year or two longer
(00:56:46)
in my life wouldn't you say that most
(00:56:49)
women who wanted to stay home with their
(00:56:51)
babies would say I'll work longer so I
(00:56:53)
can stay home with my baby there are
(00:56:54)
ways to creatively deal with it um from
(00:56:57)
my perspective this is what's going on
(00:57:00)
people on the left will not compromise
(00:57:02)
they'll only do an entitlement called
(00:57:05)
paid leave but they only are asking for
(00:57:07)
it for 3 to 6 months after that they
(00:57:09)
want women back in the workforce and
(00:57:11)
institutional dayare so I'm not on the
(00:57:14)
left um people on the right talk a lot
(00:57:17)
about family they're the party of the
(00:57:18)
family now but they do not want tax
(00:57:21)
dollars to go into PID leave they they
(00:57:23)
don't like the entitlements that already
(00:57:25)
exist and they don't want to add anymore
(00:57:27)
and so the only way they're going to
(00:57:28)
give it to women and men is if they put
(00:57:32)
skin in the game M this is the country
(00:57:35)
we live in again I'm a realist I think
(00:57:38)
in any way that we can give families the
(00:57:42)
choice to care for their own children
(00:57:45)
particularly in the early years we will
(00:57:47)
create a population of healthier
(00:57:49)
children how do we know that more paid
(00:57:52)
leave equals better children less strain
(00:57:55)
on the Healthcare System in terms of
(00:57:57)
mental health mortality whatever it
(00:57:58)
might be how do you make a statistical
(00:58:00)
or a science or research backed case
(00:58:02)
that if we had three years of paid leave
(00:58:06)
in the United States or in the UK or
(00:58:07)
Australia Canada wherever that the it
(00:58:10)
would be a net positive for society
(00:58:12)
outside of it just being an
(00:58:14)
opinion well the research shows the
(00:58:16)
longitudinal attachment research shows
(00:58:19)
that children who are insecurely
(00:58:20)
attached at 12 months of age 20 years
(00:58:24)
later are insecurely 80% of them are are
(00:58:27)
insecurely attached and suffer from
(00:58:29)
mental
(00:58:30)
disorders that's what the longitudinal
(00:58:32)
attachment research says so we now have
(00:58:36)
Decades of basically children were
(00:58:40)
followed from when they were infants and
(00:58:42)
the ones who were securely attached 20
(00:58:44)
years later are still securely attached
(00:58:46)
and doing great and the ones who were
(00:58:47)
insecurely attached most still
(00:58:50)
insecurely attached and it's tied and
(00:58:52)
correlated to all of these mental
(00:58:54)
illness conditions right so there's a
(00:58:56)
lot of research to show what attachment
(00:58:59)
security does for children in the long
(00:59:01)
run so you know you're asking a question
(00:59:05)
about I mean I suppose you could take
(00:59:07)
your paid leave and go play soccer in
(00:59:11)
the park and go play tennis and I don't
(00:59:13)
know like play cards with your F I mean
(00:59:15)
you know how can I say how people are
(00:59:17)
going to use their paid leave but if
(00:59:19)
your paid leave is being used to be home
(00:59:21)
with your child then it's going to
(00:59:23)
benefit your child so many of the the
(00:59:25)
guests that I speak to on this pod C
(00:59:27)
especially those that become incredibly
(00:59:29)
successful um athletes entrepreneurs
(00:59:32)
whoever they often have some form of
(00:59:35)
neglect in their past Richard Williams
(00:59:38)
Serena and Venus Williams father he um
(00:59:41)
he was very intense with them from a
(00:59:43)
very young age and he's raised two of
(00:59:44)
the greatest tennis players in history
(00:59:46)
Joe Jackson was strict and often
(00:59:48)
controversial with Michael who went on
(00:59:50)
to become the King of Pop El Woods who
(00:59:52)
was Tiger Wood's father was very um
(00:59:55)
intense in his Co coaching and mentoring
(00:59:57)
style which led him to become great and
(00:59:59)
obviously Beyonce is the other example I
(01:00:00)
gave who Matthew managed Matthew which
(01:00:03)
is Matthew and Tina who were parents to
(01:00:05)
Beyonce managed Destiny's Child and
(01:00:08)
Beyonce's solo career meticulously
(01:00:09)
shaping them into a global Superstar so
(01:00:11)
parents think you know I want to raise
(01:00:14)
kids that are superstars I want I want
(01:00:17)
my kids to be great okay so I'm gonna
(01:00:19)
say right now I don't recommend that as
(01:00:21)
a professional okay I'm just saying so I
(01:00:25)
can't comment on a lot of those people
(01:00:27)
because I could get in a lot of trouble
(01:00:28)
for commenting on a lot of those people
(01:00:30)
but I will say that amongst those people
(01:00:34)
there is controversy
(01:00:37)
meaning at least one of those parents
(01:00:39)
and I don't know the history of the
(01:00:41)
others was abusive and so you could say
(01:00:44)
that narcissism is abusive to children
(01:00:48)
when we project our needs and desires
(01:00:51)
and likes and who we are onto our
(01:00:55)
children we're not letting them
(01:00:57)
authentically be themselves the greatest
(01:00:59)
gift you can give your child is to see
(01:01:02)
your child as an authentic individual
(01:01:05)
who is an individual and themselves and
(01:01:09)
not to see them as a mini me um when you
(01:01:13)
start architecting their life there's a
(01:01:16)
good chance you're going to lose that
(01:01:18)
child emotionally at some point they're
(01:01:20)
either going to hate you they're they
(01:01:23)
may be successful in their careers they
(01:01:25)
may have terrible personal lives they
(01:01:28)
may be narcissistic parents themselves
(01:01:31)
so I don't recommend that school of
(01:01:34)
thought what I do recommend is if your
(01:01:37)
child shows promise in something that
(01:01:39)
they also seem to love and have a drive
(01:01:44)
to be good at then you can support that
(01:01:46)
drive just make sure to keep yourself in
(01:01:49)
check along the way to make sure that
(01:01:52)
they are driving it not you health is a
(01:01:56)
huge Focus for me in 2025 and I'm not
(01:01:58)
just talking about eating right and
(01:01:59)
exercising I'm talking about my recovery
(01:02:01)
too I'm halfway through 60 workouts in
(01:02:04)
60 days and to help my body recover I've
(01:02:07)
been using a health Gadget that I've
(01:02:09)
shared with you before they're a sponsor
(01:02:10)
of this podcast and their product has
(01:02:12)
such a huge impact on my recovery I'm
(01:02:15)
referring to my Bon charge infrared SAA
(01:02:17)
blanket these are similar to the
(01:02:19)
infrared saers that you see in gyms and
(01:02:21)
Spas but the big difference is that it's
(01:02:23)
portable I started the year off at my
(01:02:25)
home in South afca so I brought the
(01:02:27)
blanket with me and I used it most
(01:02:29)
nights before bed when I was training
(01:02:31)
hard and it helped me relax it helped my
(01:02:33)
muscles feel less sore and I wake up
(01:02:35)
feeling more recovered it works by
(01:02:37)
heating up your body directly rather
(01:02:39)
than just the air around you to improve
(01:02:41)
circulation and reduce stiffness I've
(01:02:43)
also noticed that it's had a big impact
(01:02:45)
on my skin as well and thankfully Bon
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Chargers offered me 25% off for my
(01:02:50)
listeners so if you use code diarhea
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checkout you'll also get free shipping
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and a yearlong warranty
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head to bond charge.com
(01:02:59)
diary ADHD yeah okay a I don't feel like
(01:03:04)
I don't even have to ask a question here
(01:03:05)
but just to set the stage the reason why
(01:03:08)
I'm so compelled by this is just this I
(01:03:10)
have to say it the shocking rise in
(01:03:13)
diagnosis and prescriptions over the
(01:03:16)
last 10 years between 20 20 208 ADHD
(01:03:21)
diagnosis is in the UK Rose
(01:03:23)
approximately 20 fold yes among boys
(01:03:27)
aged 10 to 16 diagnosis increased from
(01:03:29)
1% roughly to um about 3.5% in 2018 and
(01:03:33)
in men aged 18 to 29 there was a nearly
(01:03:37)
50-fold increase in ADHD prescriptions
(01:03:39)
during the same period and the same
(01:03:41)
applies to the United States where an
(01:03:42)
estimated 15.5 million adults in the US
(01:03:45)
have been diagnosed with ADHD
(01:03:47)
approximately one in nine us children
(01:03:50)
have been diagnosed with ADHD at some
(01:03:52)
point with 10.5% having a current
(01:03:55)
diagnosis it I don't know what ADHD was
(01:03:58)
but the conversation around it the
(01:04:00)
prescriptions the diagnosis seemed to
(01:04:02)
have really surged into culture in a
(01:04:03)
really really big way what's going on so
(01:04:07)
ADHD was one of the factors that drove
(01:04:09)
me to right right being there um because
(01:04:11)
I was seeing this huge uptick and ADHD
(01:04:14)
diagnosis and children being medicated
(01:04:16)
so so early do you know what the fight
(01:04:18)
ORF flight reaction is that's when the
(01:04:22)
sympathetic nervous
(01:04:24)
system starts to kick into action and
(01:04:28)
yes so well it's basically our
(01:04:29)
evolutionary response to uh predatorial
(01:04:33)
threat so if a sablet tooth tiger was
(01:04:36)
chasing
(01:04:37)
you you either stood and fought fight or
(01:04:42)
you ran for Your Life
(01:04:45)
Flight so when our children are under
(01:04:49)
stress they go into fight or
(01:04:54)
flight so one of the first signs that a
(01:04:57)
child is under stress that they cannot
(01:04:59)
manage is when they become aggressive in
(01:05:03)
school they hit they bite they throw
(01:05:06)
chairs um they have trouble you know
(01:05:10)
socially
(01:05:11)
in daycare or preschool or even in
(01:05:16)
school or they become distracted which
(01:05:19)
is the flight part of fight ORF flight
(01:05:22)
so what's happening is their nervous
(01:05:24)
systems the stress regulating part of
(01:05:27)
their brain is getting turned on so we
(01:05:30)
say that the stress regulating part of
(01:05:32)
their brain has to do with a little
(01:05:33)
almond shaped part of the brain called
(01:05:35)
the amydala it's a very primitive part
(01:05:37)
of the brain very old part of the brain
(01:05:39)
and it regulates stress throughout our
(01:05:41)
lives it helps us to manage it what we
(01:05:44)
know is that part of the brain is
(01:05:46)
supposed to remain offline for the first
(01:05:49)
year to three years which is why mothers
(01:05:52)
wear babies on their bodies it's why
(01:05:55)
babies stay close close to their mothers
(01:05:57)
in the first 3 years to keep the amydala
(01:06:00)
quiet and only incrementally
(01:06:03)
incrementally expose children to stress
(01:06:06)
and frustration that they can manage so
(01:06:08)
imagine taking small bites of it so you
(01:06:11)
can digest it right and your mother's
(01:06:14)
there to help you digest the stress what
(01:06:17)
we're doing now by separating mothers
(01:06:19)
and babies by putting babies into
(01:06:22)
daycare with
(01:06:23)
strangers um is by sleep training babies
(01:06:26)
all these weird things that we're doing
(01:06:28)
to babies is we're turning the amydala
(01:06:31)
on we're making it active precociously
(01:06:36)
too early what happens when the amydala
(01:06:38)
is activated too early is it becomes
(01:06:41)
very active and very large very
(01:06:44)
quickly the problem is then it shrivels
(01:06:47)
up and burns out also because it cannot
(01:06:52)
manage that kind of stress so early when
(01:06:55)
it ceases to be functional it ceases to
(01:06:57)
be functional for a
(01:06:59)
lifetime and so it's very important to
(01:07:03)
protect you know what's the expression
(01:07:05)
the Family Jewels it's very these are
(01:07:07)
the family jewels in the brain of a baby
(01:07:09)
this is the jewel the amydala you want
(01:07:12)
to keep the stress to an absolute
(01:07:15)
minimum in the first year which is why
(01:07:16)
sleep training is dangerous it's why
(01:07:20)
letting babies cry it out it's why
(01:07:21)
putting babies into daycare it's why
(01:07:23)
leaving babies for hours on end when
(01:07:25)
they're so so very
(01:07:27)
fragile um is so bad for their brains
(01:07:31)
because it gets the cortisol flowing
(01:07:33)
which is the stress hormone but it makes
(01:07:35)
this part of the brain very active so it
(01:07:37)
grows grows grows and
(01:07:39)
then and ceases to be functional in the
(01:07:42)
future like a PTSD response so what we
(01:07:46)
know is that these children are in hyper
(01:07:49)
Vigilant states of stress ADHD children
(01:07:52)
ADHD children hypervigilant states of
(01:07:55)
stress
(01:07:57)
if you stay in a hypervigilant state of
(01:07:59)
stress long enough you go into a hypo
(01:08:03)
Vigilant state of stress which then
(01:08:05)
causes
(01:08:07)
depression so what we have now are not
(01:08:10)
disorders so there was a whole movement
(01:08:13)
to take the d off of ADH D because it's
(01:08:17)
not a disorder it is a stress response
(01:08:21)
and instead of asking the right
(01:08:22)
questions which are okay what's causing
(01:08:25)
the stress
(01:08:26)
how do we make sure that our children
(01:08:28)
are not exposed to this kind of stress
(01:08:30)
because they're going into fight or
(01:08:32)
flight so the nervous system as you said
(01:08:35)
the brain has an on switch and an off
(01:08:38)
switch the on switch to stress is the
(01:08:40)
amydala the hippocampus is the off
(01:08:42)
switch and you'd say the stress response
(01:08:45)
is in a negative feedback loop it's it's
(01:08:48)
it's actually important like in other
(01:08:50)
words if a sabl tooth tiger is chasing
(01:08:52)
you very important that you can activate
(01:08:54)
right and run or fight so the stress
(01:08:58)
response is supposed to be
(01:08:59)
shortterm it's supposed to be not it's
(01:09:02)
supposed to be acute rather than chronic
(01:09:04)
so we can kind of manifest it we can uh
(01:09:08)
activate it but then it's supposed to be
(01:09:10)
turned off by the turnoff switch the
(01:09:12)
hippocampus what we're seeing in
(01:09:14)
children's brains is that the amydala is
(01:09:17)
growing very precociously large and the
(01:09:20)
hippocampus which is the off switch is
(01:09:23)
very small so we have problem as we say
(01:09:26)
Houston we have a problem we have an on
(01:09:29)
switch going full speed gas no brakes
(01:09:32)
and no off switch and that's causing
(01:09:35)
ADHD behavioral problems that
(01:09:38)
are hugely rising in children in school
(01:09:42)
a lot of aggression and violence and so
(01:09:45)
that's what's happening this is a stress
(01:09:47)
response and again instead of asking the
(01:09:50)
right questions like where is this
(01:09:52)
coming from what's causing the stress
(01:09:53)
instead we silence the children
(01:09:55)
children's pain we tell we tell parents
(01:09:58)
we'll medicate it and we'll just relieve
(01:10:00)
the
(01:10:01)
symptoms for me that's malpractice the
(01:10:04)
way we treat ADHD is malpractice a child
(01:10:08)
develops goes into fight ORF flight when
(01:10:11)
they are under stress it could be
(01:10:12)
psychosocial stressors at home in the
(01:10:16)
family it could be at school it could be
(01:10:18)
with their friends it could be a
(01:10:20)
learning disability there's so many
(01:10:22)
things that can cause kids stress so
(01:10:24)
instead of medicating them why why don't
(01:10:26)
we figure out what's happening to that
(01:10:28)
child deeply that's causing them to go
(01:10:31)
into fight or flight isn't that point of
(01:10:33)
view I've got two questions here the
(01:10:35)
first is how do you know that it's
(01:10:37)
stress and the second is if it is stress
(01:10:39)
then that the problem or at least the
(01:10:42)
Inconvenient Truth that that then
(01:10:44)
creates is that the parent is
(01:10:47)
responsible yes that's the there's the
(01:10:49)
Inconvenient Truth for that child's ADHD
(01:10:51)
yes yes that's the Inconvenient Truth
(01:10:55)
it's not so simple sometimes it's the
(01:10:58)
family usually it's the family
(01:11:00)
particularly with small children but
(01:11:02)
when children get to school it could be
(01:11:05)
social as I said you know you can't
(01:11:06)
control whether your children are
(01:11:08)
exposed to social issues or bullying or
(01:11:12)
there's many things that can cause
(01:11:13)
stress in children but when they're very
(01:11:15)
little you are their environment so the
(01:11:18)
Inconvenient Truth is that when your
(01:11:20)
child gets an ADHD diagnosis the first
(01:11:22)
thing you should do is go to a therapist
(01:11:24)
who will do parent Guidance with you
(01:11:27)
don't rush that child to a psychiatrist
(01:11:30)
to medicate them you go with your
(01:11:32)
partner or spouse and talk to a parent
(01:11:35)
guidance expert about what could be
(01:11:38)
causing this child to feel such stress
(01:11:41)
and look at the psychosocial stressors
(01:11:43)
look at the influences and the Dynamics
(01:11:45)
in this child's life that would be
(01:11:48)
causing them to go into a state of
(01:11:49)
stress like this give me some examples
(01:11:51)
of the type of stresses the everyday
(01:11:53)
stresses that we're now exposing
(01:11:54)
children to that are leading to ADHD in
(01:11:58)
your opinion well again let's start at
(01:12:00)
home at home the stresses might be that
(01:12:03)
they
(01:12:04)
were handed over to a daycare center at
(01:12:08)
an early age um which turned that
(01:12:10)
amygdala response on which turned the
(01:12:12)
stress regulating part of their brain on
(01:12:14)
too early now you have that
(01:12:16)
hypervigilant reaction and they can't
(01:12:19)
turn it off right um it could be a
(01:12:22)
divorce situation 50% of couples divorce
(01:12:25)
which means that div divorce is an
(01:12:27)
adversity you know I have a book coming
(01:12:29)
out in a year about how to divorce and
(01:12:31)
mitigate the impact of the divorce on
(01:12:33)
the child but no matter what a divorce
(01:12:35)
is an adversity on a child and a stress
(01:12:38)
um when parents fight uh dramatically in
(01:12:41)
the home if there's uh tremendous
(01:12:44)
sibling rivalry issues in the home if
(01:12:46)
there's the birth of another child
(01:12:48)
that's stressful right if you have a
(01:12:50)
sibling believe it or not that's a very
(01:12:52)
stressful thing if parents are sensitive
(01:12:54)
about that then it can be mitigated but
(01:12:56)
if parents are insensitive about the
(01:12:58)
birth of a second child and the feelings
(01:13:00)
that your first child may have that can
(01:13:02)
cause stress moving can cause stress
(01:13:05)
illness or mental illness in a parent
(01:13:07)
can cause stress alcoholism any kind of
(01:13:10)
addiction can cause stress a grandparent
(01:13:13)
or uncle or Aunt or even a parent
(01:13:15)
getting sick and dying can cause I mean
(01:13:17)
there are so many things that can cause
(01:13:20)
stress but the point is that stress can
(01:13:23)
be regulated but it can only only be
(01:13:26)
regulated if parents are introspective
(01:13:28)
and self-aware and willing to look at
(01:13:31)
their part in it if parents hand a child
(01:13:34)
over to a psychiatrist and say fix my
(01:13:37)
child of course psychiatrists will
(01:13:39)
cooperate with you and silence your
(01:13:42)
child's pain but is that really what you
(01:13:44)
want to be doing um because in the end
(01:13:47)
you're just putting your finger in a
(01:13:49)
dyke you're putting your finger in a dam
(01:13:52)
and eventually that dam is going to
(01:13:53)
burst what' you say to some of the
(01:13:56)
evidence around there being a link to a
(01:13:58)
hereditary component in twin studies
(01:14:01)
they found that ADHD is about 74 to 80%
(01:14:04)
heritable making one of the most
(01:14:05)
genetically influenced psychiatric
(01:14:07)
conditions let me tell you a different
(01:14:09)
study that will help you to understand
(01:14:10)
that
(01:14:11)
study which is that we know that there
(01:14:14)
is no genetic precursor to mental
(01:14:17)
illness there is no genetic precursor to
(01:14:20)
ADHD there is no genetic precursor to
(01:14:23)
depression and no genetic precursor to
(01:14:25)
anxiety what you mean by precurser
(01:14:27)
meaning there's no genetic connection
(01:14:29)
you don't get it in your genes if your
(01:14:31)
father or your mother were depressed you
(01:14:33)
get it by something called the
(01:14:35)
inheritance of acquired
(01:14:36)
characteristics if you're raised by a
(01:14:38)
depressed parent you're more likely to
(01:14:40)
become depressed it's the nature nurture
(01:14:43)
argument okay but what they did
(01:14:46)
find now schizophrenia has a genetic
(01:14:49)
connection bipolar disorder those have
(01:14:51)
genetic but the rest do not anxiety
(01:14:54)
depression ADHD no genetic gentics what
(01:14:57)
they did find is a genetic tie to
(01:15:00)
something called the sensitivity
(01:15:02)
Gene it's a short Al on the serotonin
(01:15:06)
receptor and serotonin as we know is
(01:15:10)
used to regulate happy emotions to
(01:15:12)
regulate emotions right so when you have
(01:15:15)
a short Al it means that you have a
(01:15:18)
harder time picking up the serotonin but
(01:15:21)
it also means that you are more
(01:15:23)
sensitive to stress
(01:15:26)
now those children who are born with
(01:15:29)
this Gene this short Al on the serotonin
(01:15:31)
receptor
(01:15:33)
gene they are more prone to mental
(01:15:35)
illness later on because of that
(01:15:38)
sensitivity to
(01:15:40)
stress what the study shows is if those
(01:15:43)
children who are born with that Gene for
(01:15:46)
sensitivity are provided with
(01:15:49)
emotionally and physically present
(01:15:52)
attachment Security in the first year
(01:15:56)
it neutralizes the expression of that
(01:15:59)
Gene so epigenetics means that we're
(01:16:01)
born with genes like you might have a
(01:16:02)
gene for rheumatoid arthritis or you
(01:16:04)
might have a gene for cancer but it
(01:16:06)
never gets expressed well we all have
(01:16:07)
genes for something but they don't
(01:16:09)
necessarily get expressed that's what
(01:16:11)
epigenetics is it means the environment
(01:16:13)
has to turn on the gene to make it let's
(01:16:16)
rock and roll right um what it showed in
(01:16:19)
this study is that the children who were
(01:16:22)
born with this genetic precursor this
(01:16:24)
sensitivity ity to stress if they had
(01:16:27)
sensitive empathic nurturing and present
(01:16:29)
parents in the first year it neutralized
(01:16:33)
the expression of that Gene so those
(01:16:35)
children could be as healthy as children
(01:16:38)
born without that Gene if however
(01:16:42)
children born with that sensitivity Gene
(01:16:44)
were neglected you know abandoned not
(01:16:48)
provided with sensitive empathic present
(01:16:50)
nurturing it exacerbated that Gene so we
(01:16:53)
know that that sensitivity Gene tied and
(01:16:56)
correlated to mental illness later on
(01:16:58)
unless the sensitive empathic nurturing
(01:17:01)
mitigates that Gene and what you say to
(01:17:05)
people that point to MRI
(01:17:07)
scans fmis and yeah there's there's all
(01:17:11)
kinds of um neurological tests now where
(01:17:13)
we can see the brain in action so it's
(01:17:16)
not a static thing we can actually see
(01:17:19)
the blood flow to the brain we can see
(01:17:21)
the electrical activity in the brain
(01:17:23)
it's it's amazing actually but some
(01:17:25)
people say that this proves that it's
(01:17:27)
the way your brain is and lots of my
(01:17:28)
friends that have ADHD when they talk
(01:17:30)
about their ADHD or the way that they
(01:17:32)
are they say my brain works like this no
(01:17:36)
it's not correct their brain is
(01:17:38)
sensitive to stress someone with ADHD is
(01:17:41)
more sensitive to stress so you could
(01:17:45)
ask them questions like this you could
(01:17:47)
say were you more are you a more
(01:17:49)
sensitive person are you more sensitive
(01:17:51)
to noise to Smells to touch when you
(01:17:54)
were a child did you not like itchy
(01:17:56)
things did you cry more were you more
(01:17:58)
sensitive when your parents would go out
(01:18:00)
for the night were you more sensitive
(01:18:01)
when your mom would go to work or were
(01:18:03)
you more sensitive when you were left at
(01:18:04)
Nursery School um and they're probably
(01:18:07)
going to say yes but if they say no and
(01:18:09)
they still have an ADHD diagnosis I
(01:18:11)
would guarantee almost guarantee they
(01:18:13)
wouldn't say no because people with ADHD
(01:18:16)
are people who are
(01:18:18)
sensitive sensitivity is an amazing
(01:18:22)
strength if it's met with sensitivity
(01:18:25)
if you have a sensitive child so what
(01:18:27)
does a sensitive child look like if you
(01:18:30)
have multiple children then you know
(01:18:33)
because the first thing I'll do when I
(01:18:34)
give a public talk is I'll say okay any
(01:18:36)
everybody here who has a sensitive child
(01:18:38)
and I describe okay sensitive child is a
(01:18:40)
child who cries more is harder to soothe
(01:18:44)
um is more clingy doesn't like you
(01:18:48)
leaving them is harder has a harder time
(01:18:50)
separating has a harder time going to
(01:18:52)
sleep and being left to sleep on their
(01:18:54)
own um is sensitive to things like noise
(01:18:58)
and smells and touch and if you grew up
(01:19:01)
in an environment that was stressful and
(01:19:03)
again we've you've identified that
(01:19:04)
stress can come in many forms it could
(01:19:05)
be arguing parents it could be a
(01:19:07)
neighbor or whatever some environmental
(01:19:09)
factor that caused that stress you are
(01:19:10)
sensitive you developed ADHD you become
(01:19:13)
an adult you get diagnosed at 30 years
(01:19:15)
old as having ADHD yeah you're offered
(01:19:18)
medication you take the medication the
(01:19:20)
medication makes you much more
(01:19:21)
functional in your career in your
(01:19:23)
relationships in your life
(01:19:26)
it's a stimulant and so what stimulants
(01:19:28)
do is they cause they can cause great
(01:19:30)
anxiety they can cause panic attacks in
(01:19:34)
adolescence uh they can cause growth
(01:19:36)
issues so uh I have patients who come to
(01:19:40)
me young men who didn't grow because
(01:19:42)
they were put on stimulants when they
(01:19:44)
were young so um in in in terms of the
(01:19:49)
consequences of using stimulants the
(01:19:51)
jury is still out but we know that they
(01:19:53)
cause growth issues they cause panic
(01:19:55)
attacks they cause anxiety disorders
(01:19:57)
they cause
(01:19:58)
depression they're quite life saving
(01:20:00)
they're quite life-saving for some
(01:20:01)
people in terms of having a they can be
(01:20:03)
they can be so what I would say is if
(01:20:06)
you have tried everything to uncover
(01:20:10)
what the stress is that's causing you to
(01:20:12)
react this way and you still are feeling
(01:20:15)
that way then sometimes medication can
(01:20:17)
be a lifesaver the problem is that we
(01:20:19)
turn to
(01:20:21)
medication uh in in adolescen and
(01:20:24)
children and young adult we we turn to
(01:20:26)
it as a performance
(01:20:28)
drug um because there's so much stress
(01:20:31)
in Modern Life and there's such a need
(01:20:32)
for people to perform and be successful
(01:20:35)
in their careers and in school and get
(01:20:37)
good grades there's so much pressure on
(01:20:40)
kids so you know I'm 60 and we didn't
(01:20:43)
have this kind of pressure growing up
(01:20:45)
and so so the generations that follow
(01:20:48)
have so much pressure that pressure
(01:20:52)
makes children literally go off the
(01:20:55)
rails we could talk about the academic
(01:20:57)
pressure the
(01:20:58)
competitiveness the
(01:21:01)
perfectionism um it so
(01:21:03)
ADHD is a bucket it's a bucket which you
(01:21:07)
throw people in who have anxiety that
(01:21:10)
has never been treated and so and
(01:21:13)
there's different ways of thinking about
(01:21:15)
treatment too so we are a society that
(01:21:17)
likes superficial quick fixes we like
(01:21:20)
drugs we like CBT therapy the truth is
(01:21:24)
that this is not not a quick
(01:21:26)
fix figuring out relationally
(01:21:30)
dynamically what happened to you as a
(01:21:32)
child what your losses were what your
(01:21:34)
traumas were what caused you to feel so
(01:21:38)
anxious what's caused you to go into
(01:21:40)
fight ORF flight is hard work it
(01:21:44)
requires frustration it requires
(01:21:46)
commitment it requires going to someone
(01:21:48)
who can think very deeply with you you
(01:21:51)
know I I want to
(01:21:53)
Define what anx is because I think it's
(01:21:56)
really
(01:21:58)
important because we rarely Define
(01:22:00)
depression and anxiety um depression is
(01:22:04)
preoccupation with past
(01:22:07)
losses
(01:22:09)
anxiety is
(01:22:11)
preoccupation with future losses that
(01:22:13)
may never occur what do they have in
(01:22:16)
common it's all about losses all about
(01:22:20)
loss and you could say the generations
(01:22:24)
now are very preoccupied with
(01:22:28)
loss loss of status
(01:22:33)
achievement but because we're also very
(01:22:35)
preoccupied with
(01:22:37)
gain well we're preoccupied with I what
(01:22:40)
I say the I you know I don't want to
(01:22:43)
judge but I want to say the unimportant
(01:22:44)
things in life um what are the important
(01:22:47)
things in life
(01:22:49)
relationships love
(01:22:51)
connection Health right you would say
(01:22:55)
objectively family these are the
(01:22:57)
important things in life but we've
(01:22:59)
become very preoccupied with material
(01:23:03)
success
(01:23:05)
money uh career achievements Fame I
(01:23:09)
think there was a study that interviewed
(01:23:12)
teenagers um and it was really
(01:23:15)
discouraging because they said that the
(01:23:17)
thing they wanted more in life than
(01:23:19)
anything was to be famous and so we're
(01:23:23)
preoccupied with the wrong things
(01:23:25)
on this point of stress in the link with
(01:23:27)
ADHD um looking at some research from
(01:23:30)
the injury.com research education group
(01:23:35)
um it says that children with an ace
(01:23:36)
score which is the trauma B score where
(01:23:39)
I think it goes up to 10 different sort
(01:23:40)
of questions with an a score of four or
(01:23:43)
more so four experiences of trauma or
(01:23:45)
more have nearly four times which is
(01:23:47)
400% more chance of having parent
(01:23:51)
reported ADHD compared to children with
(01:23:53)
no Aces yeah and some of the factors
(01:23:55)
that have big impact is soo
(01:23:56)
socioeconomic hardship increases your
(01:23:59)
probability of having ADHD by 40%
(01:24:01)
parental Divorce by 35% familial mental
(01:24:05)
illness or a parent having a mental
(01:24:07)
illness increases it up to almost 60%
(01:24:09)
55% I believe and neighborhood violence
(01:24:11)
almost 50% familial incarceration so if
(01:24:14)
a parent goes to prison then that
(01:24:16)
increases your probability of ADHD by
(01:24:18)
about 40% as well and that's published
(01:24:21)
by the I think it's the New England
(01:24:25)
yeah what is oh the National Library of
(01:24:26)
Medicine National Center of biological
(01:24:28)
information yeah so remember what I said
(01:24:30)
that you can't control everything that
(01:24:32)
happens to your child divorces do happen
(01:24:34)
and adversities happen to Children
(01:24:37)
Health health issues happen to Children
(01:24:40)
what you can control is you can control
(01:24:43)
the first three years and be as present
(01:24:46)
as possible for your child so if my kid
(01:24:49)
start screaming in a supermarket m one
(01:24:52)
of the prevailing pieces of advice says
(01:24:54)
just walk off or start screaming
(01:24:56)
yourself as the parent to show them do
(01:24:58)
am I supposed to just ignore my child
(01:25:00)
when it's screaming and throwing a
(01:25:01)
tantrum am I meant to drop what I'm
(01:25:03)
doing and go and Cat to them what am I
(01:25:05)
meant to do in these situ you have me on
(01:25:07)
speed dial Stephen you be careful
(01:25:09)
because if you make a promise like that
(01:25:10)
I promise I promise I'll be on speed you
(01:25:13)
want to drop your career and focus on
(01:25:15)
raising my children you you can no but
(01:25:17)
you can call me you got this on video
(01:25:18)
speed that's legally binding no you can
(01:25:20)
have me on speed doll how much um yeah
(01:25:23)
you can as much as you want so the deal
(01:25:25)
is you don't yell at your children an
(01:25:28)
emotionally regulated parent a healthy
(01:25:31)
parent produces a healthy child so what
(01:25:33)
is a healthy parent a healthy parent is
(01:25:35)
a parent who feels good about themsel
(01:25:37)
who has authentically good self-esteem
(01:25:40)
not grandiosity but really feels good
(01:25:42)
about themselves knows their strengths
(01:25:44)
and limitations and overall as a whole
(01:25:46)
person feels good about themselves um
(01:25:49)
they have the capacity to regulate their
(01:25:52)
emotions to keep their emotions from
(01:25:54)
going too high and too low remember
(01:25:56)
sailing in the Caribbean meaning they
(01:25:57)
can stay calm in a storm um is sensitive
(01:26:01)
and empathic as a nurturer these are
(01:26:04)
signs of Health in a in a parent so if
(01:26:08)
my kid says I want that pack of sweets
(01:26:11)
and I go you you you can't have the pack
(01:26:13)
of sweets well first you have to so
(01:26:15)
before you discipline you always want to
(01:26:18)
be empathic first so I always say that
(01:26:20)
that if you are going to discipline a
(01:26:22)
child first you have to recognize how
(01:26:25)
they feel I mean recognize recognizing
(01:26:28)
how children feel is important anyway
(01:26:31)
meaning when you recognize a child's
(01:26:33)
feelings if they're sad you mirror their
(01:26:35)
sadness if they're angry you say I can
(01:26:37)
see you're angry if they're happy you
(01:26:39)
look happy with them that kind of
(01:26:42)
reflection is the way that your child
(01:26:45)
knows that you acknowledge them that
(01:26:49)
they're a person to you that they're a
(01:26:51)
separate person to you it's how they
(01:26:53)
feel valuable so when you acknowledge
(01:26:55)
their feelings that's the first critical
(01:26:59)
you'd say parenting 101 acknowledge your
(01:27:01)
child's feelings so I would turn to my
(01:27:03)
child and say you want sweets are you
(01:27:04)
hungry yeah you can say I can see that
(01:27:06)
you really want that packet of sweets I
(01:27:09)
can see how hard it is because you
(01:27:10)
really want it but you know you can't
(01:27:12)
have it before dinner you know that's
(01:27:13)
the rule and then they stop screaming
(01:27:16)
and cry and then they start screaming
(01:27:17)
and you say broken record is a
(01:27:19)
communication style where you say oh I
(01:27:22)
can see it's really hard for you but
(01:27:24)
just still can't have the sweets and you
(01:27:27)
stay with them and you keep empathizing
(01:27:30)
and then setting structure empathizing
(01:27:32)
structure empathizing structure the
(01:27:34)
mistake that parents make is that they
(01:27:36)
go right into the no word they don't use
(01:27:39)
empathy they don't bring empathy in and
(01:27:42)
the truth is that even as an adult if
(01:27:44)
somebody just says no without first
(01:27:47)
recognizing how you feel you feel very
(01:27:51)
unsatisfied right for a child it's
(01:27:54)
critical it's critical that even when
(01:27:57)
you have to say no and particularly if
(01:27:59)
you have to say no that you first
(01:28:01)
recognize how they feel I mean that's
(01:28:03)
what all the relationship experts on the
(01:28:04)
show tell me they say if you want to be
(01:28:05)
successful in a romantic relationship
(01:28:07)
then you first must make your partner
(01:28:09)
feel heard and understood that's right
(01:28:11)
even if you disagree in an argument
(01:28:13)
first acknowledge what they said maybe
(01:28:14)
repeat it back to them and then they'll
(01:28:17)
feel heard and understood and it kind of
(01:28:18)
stops the broken record do you think
(01:28:20)
that I'm a traumatized child I don't
(01:28:22)
know I haven't heard about your
(01:28:24)
traumatized background if so if you have
(01:28:26)
a trauma I would say we're all so let me
(01:28:28)
say this there's this word trauma is
(01:28:31)
used a lot can I just talk about it for
(01:28:33)
a
(01:28:34)
moment there's something called Big tea
(01:28:36)
trauma right big tea traumas is like I
(01:28:38)
was in a car accident and I lost my legs
(01:28:41)
or um you know I lost my parents you
(01:28:44)
know my mother died of brain cancer or
(01:28:48)
my my father was an alcoholic and beat
(01:28:50)
me or you know there's there are things
(01:28:53)
that are more concrete that you can like
(01:28:55)
hold on to things that happened to
(01:28:58)
people yeah I was raped or you know
(01:29:01)
those are big tea
(01:29:02)
trauma but believe it or not probably
(01:29:06)
fewer people suffer from Big tea trauma
(01:29:09)
and more people suffer from little tea
(01:29:12)
trauma and little tea
(01:29:14)
trauma is more
(01:29:16)
nuanced it's um it it requires looking
(01:29:20)
with a with a finer tooth comb at at the
(01:29:23)
issues it's more relational it's more I
(01:29:27)
was subtly neglected by my mother my
(01:29:30)
mother wasn't a good listener my mother
(01:29:33)
loved me but my father loved me but he
(01:29:35)
never understood me uh my parents were
(01:29:38)
narcissistic and very
(01:29:40)
self-centered um they were never around
(01:29:43)
you know and so people will come into my
(01:29:46)
office and sit down individuals for
(01:29:48)
therapy and they'll say you know I don't
(01:29:50)
know what's wrong with me I had two
(01:29:53)
parents who stayed together I had all
(01:29:55)
the material wealth that I could need I
(01:29:58)
never wanted for Stuff uh you know my
(01:30:01)
parents stayed together and I don't know
(01:30:03)
what's wrong with me and so I say okay
(01:30:05)
so you're telling me nothing big and
(01:30:08)
traumatic happened to you in your life
(01:30:10)
now let's talk about the
(01:30:12)
nuance and we're not very nuanced
(01:30:14)
anymore so we don't want to look at what
(01:30:17)
causes most forms of mental illness
(01:30:19)
depression
(01:30:21)
anxiety uh even ADHD are the relational
(01:30:25)
nuances of a family and what do you mean
(01:30:28)
by the relational nuances it could be
(01:30:30)
the neglect neglect being ignored having
(01:30:33)
a mentally ill parent that no one knows
(01:30:35)
about maybe a depressed mother who
(01:30:38)
sleeps in in the morning and doesn't get
(01:30:40)
up and feed you you know you get up and
(01:30:42)
feed yourself or uh maybe you're a
(01:30:44)
latchkey kid who comes home and and
(01:30:47)
you're isolated and alone or things that
(01:30:50)
people can't
(01:30:52)
see um but you see and so that's why
(01:30:55)
people I would say most people go into
(01:30:57)
therapy not for big tea traumas believe
(01:31:00)
it or not even though the aces study
(01:31:03)
says you know alcoholism drug addiction
(01:31:05)
of course those are big tea traumas most
(01:31:08)
people come into therapy for little te
(01:31:12)
trauma and and the reason why it's it's
(01:31:17)
quite difficult for those people is
(01:31:19)
there's not a lot of reinforcement from
(01:31:21)
society that those are also traumas but
(01:31:23)
in fact they are traumas attachment
(01:31:26)
trauma you know if you were put in
(01:31:28)
daycare and you so I have patients who
(01:31:30)
come to me and say I can remember being
(01:31:33)
put in daycare and you know you're not
(01:31:35)
supposed to remember things until the
(01:31:37)
age of four or five but some patients
(01:31:40)
can remember flashes of memory under
(01:31:42)
five and they'll say I was put into
(01:31:44)
daycare I just all I can remember is
(01:31:46)
screaming my lungs out for my momy
(01:31:49)
you're not a fan of daycare are you no
(01:31:52)
what's wrong with daycare
(01:31:54)
daycare raises salivary cortisol levels
(01:31:58)
in children the studies show be meaning
(01:32:00)
those babies are put into stressful
(01:32:03)
States uh at a very young age when their
(01:32:05)
brains are
(01:32:06)
developing daycare has been known to
(01:32:09)
increase aggression and anxiety and
(01:32:12)
behavioral problems in school in the
(01:32:14)
school years and those children are more
(01:32:17)
likely to develop attachment disorders
(01:32:20)
remember those first three years when
(01:32:21)
children are so very fragile and
(01:32:24)
vulnerable taking them away from your
(01:32:27)
body as a primary attachment figure and
(01:32:29)
handing them over to
(01:32:31)
strangers and leaving them there for
(01:32:34)
hours on
(01:32:35)
end will cause your child to have to
(01:32:38)
develop pathological defenses and that's
(01:32:41)
what those children are forced to do so
(01:32:44)
it is the least good option of child
(01:32:46)
care so let's talk about what are the
(01:32:47)
better options of child care if you have
(01:32:50)
to use child
(01:32:51)
care you know how we say breast is best
(01:32:54)
and it is for a variety of reasons but
(01:32:56)
the best is your primary attachment
(01:32:59)
figure for the first three years as much
(01:33:01)
as possible primary attachment
(01:33:04)
attachment figure you mean the mother
(01:33:06)
father well no it can be the father okay
(01:33:08)
it's the go-to person who's a sensitive
(01:33:11)
empathic nurturer so when that baby's in
(01:33:14)
distress that baby gets their emotional
(01:33:16)
needs met it can be the father it can be
(01:33:19)
the father but first the father has to
(01:33:21)
learn how to be a sensitive it doesn't
(01:33:23)
come naturally to most men with rare
(01:33:26)
exception I have known some patients
(01:33:29)
where the husband the father was more
(01:33:31)
sensitive than the mother it's possible
(01:33:35)
but in general instinctually fathers are
(01:33:39)
not sensitive and paic nurtures because
(01:33:41)
it's against their evolutionary Instinct
(01:33:43)
their evolutionary
(01:33:44)
Instinct if you were an animal on the
(01:33:47)
plains of
(01:33:48)
Africa you're uh you're you're a an
(01:33:51)
Impala you're a daddy Impala
(01:33:55)
your baby is born and it comes out
(01:33:57)
running cuz they are they're like born
(01:33:59)
and you're all running
(01:34:00)
together you get behind that baby and
(01:34:03)
you're like get going buddy you better
(01:34:05)
get going or you're going to be lunch
(01:34:07)
for that lion that's a father's instinct
(01:34:10)
is to protect it's protective aggression
(01:34:13)
right that's different than the baby
(01:34:15)
andala falls down and the mother comes
(01:34:17)
over and licks the baby and says are you
(01:34:19)
okay honey can I give you a hug can you
(01:34:21)
you know if and paa could talk um so
(01:34:25)
it's a different Instinct so fathers can
(01:34:27)
be taught to be primary attachment
(01:34:29)
figures but this is why I say it's so
(01:34:31)
very important that we recognize the
(01:34:32)
difference between men and women if we
(01:34:34)
just think they're exactly the same and
(01:34:36)
we put a throw a father into the mix
(01:34:38)
with an infant and the mother's going
(01:34:40)
out and the father's staying home if we
(01:34:43)
don't talk about this stuff and and talk
(01:34:46)
about it openly and say when the baby
(01:34:48)
cries you have to mirror the baby's
(01:34:50)
emotions you have to do skin to skin you
(01:34:53)
have to s soothe the baby not encourage
(01:34:56)
resilience not not distract the baby not
(01:34:59)
use discrepant emotions with the baby if
(01:35:01)
the baby's crying don't go oh you're
(01:35:03)
okay you'll be fine no no so it's really
(01:35:07)
important if the father's going to stay
(01:35:08)
home that he learns how to be a mother
(01:35:11)
you know sometimes gay couples will come
(01:35:12)
to me and I'll say um you know two gay
(01:35:16)
men will come I'll say which one of you
(01:35:17)
is going to be the mother now that may
(01:35:20)
seem Politically Incorrect but someone's
(01:35:21)
got to play that role you cannot have
(01:35:23)
two fathers for a child a child needs a
(01:35:25)
mother and a father if you're going to
(01:35:26)
have two men then one of them has to
(01:35:29)
play that sensitive empathic role the
(01:35:30)
other has to play the playful tactial
(01:35:32)
stimulation role same with two women who
(01:35:34)
are raising children it's better to have
(01:35:37)
a father and a mother than two mothers
(01:35:38)
so which of you is going to be the dad
(01:35:41)
which of you is going to rough house and
(01:35:42)
play basketball and roll the rounds on
(01:35:44)
the ground and tickle the baby and
(01:35:46)
encourage exploration and risk taking
(01:35:48)
and can't you both do half each like so
(01:35:51)
couldn't no no and I'll tell you why
(01:35:54)
it's very confusing to children they
(01:35:56)
when parents say I'm both mother and
(01:35:59)
father to my child I say no no is very
(01:36:02)
confusing to children they need to have
(01:36:05)
a mother figure and a father figure and
(01:36:07)
I say that knowing today's politics and
(01:36:09)
knowing today's social situation you can
(01:36:12)
have a mother figure who's not a mother
(01:36:16)
maybe it's a nanny maybe it's a
(01:36:17)
grandmother you need a mother figure and
(01:36:20)
you need that mother figure to be around
(01:36:23)
a lot
(01:36:25)
if that mother figure is the one who
(01:36:27)
provides the sensitive empathic
(01:36:28)
nurturing so some of this can be taught
(01:36:31)
but it can't be taught unless you first
(01:36:33)
acknowledge that there are differences
(01:36:35)
if we cannot as a society acknowledge
(01:36:38)
the Inconvenient Truth that men and
(01:36:40)
women are different in terms of their
(01:36:41)
nurturing behaviors then we can't teach
(01:36:43)
anybody anything I'm looking at some
(01:36:46)
stats here in front of me um on a graph
(01:36:48)
which I was just reading is as you're
(01:36:49)
explaining that because it seems to be
(01:36:50)
quite relevant and it shows that in 1960
(01:36:54)
one in 10 mothers were the sole primary
(01:36:58)
bread winner yeah now it's almost at
(01:37:00)
half it's on its way to half I know
(01:37:03)
almost half of mothers are the sole or
(01:37:04)
primary bread winner in
(01:37:08)
2016 so I mean these mothers can't just
(01:37:11)
quit their
(01:37:13)
jobs
(01:37:15)
so it's it's it's a good question I get
(01:37:19)
a lot of people coming to me and saying
(01:37:22)
and this is very common
(01:37:24)
I want to quit my job I want to
(01:37:27)
downscale I want to work
(01:37:30)
part-time but my husband won't support
(01:37:34)
it because I made a promise that I would
(01:37:37)
be the primary bread winner and now I
(01:37:40)
want to switch and he won't switch or he
(01:37:42)
doesn't support me giving up my
(01:37:44)
high-paying job but I feel this
(01:37:46)
transformation of being with my baby and
(01:37:49)
I don't want to leave my baby the
(01:37:51)
problem with young people is they
(01:37:52)
promise each other they make promises to
(01:37:54)
each other that they probably should not
(01:37:56)
make do not promise your spouse that
(01:37:59)
nothing will change when you have a baby
(01:38:02)
say to your spouse let's prepare for
(01:38:05)
everything to
(01:38:06)
change let's believe that anything is
(01:38:11)
possible and
(01:38:12)
let's prepare let's strategize let's say
(01:38:17)
what if I want to stay home with the
(01:38:18)
baby what if I I may not feel like that
(01:38:22)
now but what if I see this baby and I
(01:38:24)
fall in love with this baby and I want
(01:38:25)
to stay home and I'm the mother and I
(01:38:26)
want to breastfeed and I don't want to
(01:38:27)
go back to work for a while and and so
(01:38:30)
then you say what would that scenario
(01:38:32)
look like what could we do what could we
(01:38:34)
downscale in terms of our material life
(01:38:37)
and our
(01:38:37)
lifestyle that makes it possible for me
(01:38:40)
to stay
(01:38:42)
home and I don't think we do that
(01:38:45)
instead women say nothing's going to
(01:38:47)
change and men say nothing's going to
(01:38:49)
change and then they have babies and
(01:38:52)
they're not prepared for the change
(01:38:53)
changes that occur changes occur in men
(01:38:56)
too it's not just women I mean fathers
(01:38:59)
also can have this transformation right
(01:39:02)
um where they also want to work less or
(01:39:06)
you know sometimes the transformation
(01:39:07)
comes in the form of wanting to work
(01:39:09)
less and being home sometimes it comes
(01:39:11)
in the form of wanting to go out and
(01:39:13)
Take On The World so they can provide
(01:39:15)
for their you know but it does it does
(01:39:18)
stimulate something it stimulates some
(01:39:20)
evolutionary response in men and women
(01:39:23)
the hardest thing I find is when men and
(01:39:26)
women
(01:39:27)
compete it was much easier in the olden
(01:39:30)
days now not everything was good in the
(01:39:32)
olden days but you would say the idea
(01:39:34)
that roles were
(01:39:36)
defined meant that men and women didn't
(01:39:39)
compete over their roles now what I
(01:39:44)
think is causing a lot of these divorces
(01:39:46)
and what's causing a lot of marital
(01:39:48)
conflict is that men and women compete
(01:39:50)
over everything they compete over who's
(01:39:53)
going to make more money they compete
(01:39:55)
over who's going to care for the baby um
(01:39:59)
and so it's like you you're a CE CEO of
(01:40:01)
a company you had your own company so
(01:40:04)
you can't have co-ceos I mean I don't
(01:40:07)
know if you did but it doesn't work I
(01:40:09)
mean anybody that I've ever treated that
(01:40:11)
says we're going to do co-ceos it always
(01:40:12)
falls apart you can have a CEO you can
(01:40:15)
have a president you can have the head
(01:40:16)
of marketing you can have a CFO you can
(01:40:18)
have a COO these are different roles and
(01:40:22)
they don't compete with one another they
(01:40:23)
work work is a team parenting is a team
(01:40:26)
sport not a competitive Sport and so
(01:40:30)
what's happening today because of all
(01:40:32)
this gender neutrality and we're as I'm
(01:40:34)
as good as you and you're as good as me
(01:40:36)
and we're the same it means that couples
(01:40:38)
are competing with one another and
(01:40:40)
that's causing so much tension because
(01:40:43)
what's best is when couples compliment
(01:40:45)
each
(01:40:46)
other when their
(01:40:48)
differences mean that as a team they
(01:40:51)
work well to care for child and I would
(01:40:55)
say the secret to success in a marriage
(01:40:57)
is save your competition for the tennis
(01:40:59)
court for the basketball court for
(01:41:03)
running in the park but don't compete
(01:41:05)
over child rearing who's going to take
(01:41:07)
care of the children don't compete over
(01:41:09)
who makes more money find a way to
(01:41:12)
compliment each other and be a
(01:41:14)
team there's so many mothers listening
(01:41:16)
now that are very career- driven and you
(01:41:20)
may be causing some existential crisis
(01:41:22)
you may be affirming a lot of what they
(01:41:24)
believe and think and what they feel
(01:41:27)
intuitively um are you are you saying
(01:41:30)
then that for those women that are
(01:41:32)
pursuing you know high octane careers in
(01:41:35)
leadership roles that also want to have
(01:41:38)
children that it's one or the
(01:41:41)
other no I'm saying that there are
(01:41:44)
certain careers realistically here's the
(01:41:46)
Inconvenient Truth again bunch of
(01:41:47)
inconvenient
(01:41:49)
truths um there are certain careers that
(01:41:53)
that are harder to be a good
(01:41:57)
mother period I'm saying that I know
(01:42:00)
it's a harsh to but there it is there
(01:42:02)
are certain careers that are too
(01:42:04)
demanding to be present for your
(01:42:06)
children whether you're a mother or a
(01:42:08)
father you think if you're a father
(01:42:11)
who's a CEO who's traveling around the
(01:42:12)
world and misses your children's
(01:42:14)
birthday and misses your children's
(01:42:16)
soccer games and misses your children's
(01:42:18)
piano concerts and isn't there to pick
(01:42:20)
them up at school or have breakfast with
(01:42:22)
them or have dinner at the end of the
(01:42:24)
day you think that child is going to
(01:42:26)
have a healthy relationship with that
(01:42:28)
parent another myth here we are I told
(01:42:31)
you I was going to weave the myths in
(01:42:33)
quality versus quantity time you cannot
(01:42:37)
be there for your
(01:42:39)
children on your own time you have to be
(01:42:43)
there on their time meaning quality time
(01:42:47)
is a narcissistic fantasy I can be there
(01:42:51)
on my time so so my child sits at home
(01:42:55)
and is like a vase on the counter
(01:42:57)
waiting for me to come home and then I
(01:42:59)
come home and there I can be present for
(01:43:02)
my child your child has needed you all
(01:43:05)
day long and when you come home that's
(01:43:09)
your that's on your time you need to be
(01:43:12)
there a quality of time as well as a
(01:43:15)
quantity of time I always say to people
(01:43:17)
that you can be you can be physically
(01:43:20)
present but be emotionally checked out
(01:43:21)
but you can't be emotionally present if
(01:43:23)
you're not phys physically there enough
(01:43:24)
of the time and that's just a reality so
(01:43:28)
what are the careers that are really
(01:43:29)
good for whoever's going to be the
(01:43:31)
primary attachment figure service Fields
(01:43:35)
Fields where you have your own business
(01:43:38)
and you can make your own schedule
(01:43:40)
around your children where your children
(01:43:43)
don't work around you you work around
(01:43:45)
your children Physical Therapy
(01:43:49)
Psychotherapy speech therapy Consulting
(01:43:52)
Maybe um anything that's entrepreneurial
(01:43:56)
anything that is a service field CEO
(01:43:58)
podcaster investor entrepreneur no I'm
(01:44:00)
going to disagree with you I'm going to
(01:44:02)
say you can but you have to be willing
(01:44:04)
to set limits with yourself so you have
(01:44:07)
to be willing to say do you know Monae
(01:44:10)
the painter yeah he was famous in his
(01:44:13)
own life now most painters have to be
(01:44:15)
dead to be famous and he painted on a
(01:44:20)
very modest schedule get a in the
(01:44:23)
morning to catch the light and then he'd
(01:44:25)
be done by like 3 or 4:00 in the
(01:44:26)
afternoon he'd have dinner with his
(01:44:28)
family you know we We Are The Architects
(01:44:32)
of our own lives kind of no not kind of
(01:44:37)
I'm representing the opinion of some
(01:44:39)
people who might be listening I
(01:44:40)
obviously there's so who are the people
(01:44:43)
who can't architect their own lives you
(01:44:44)
want to be a who do you think I would
(01:44:46)
say hedge fun managers okay let me tell
(01:44:48)
you that so I was 18 years old Dr had a
(01:44:51)
university mhm um probably had sex that
(01:44:54)
year so if I had sex that year and had a
(01:44:56)
baby yeah and then I became a single
(01:44:59)
parent at the time I was I had two ccjs
(01:45:03)
I was broke I shoplifting food to feed
(01:45:04)
myself I'd printed off the doll forms I
(01:45:06)
had I never sent them in but the forms
(01:45:08)
where you get you know like government
(01:45:10)
assistance and I was working in call
(01:45:13)
centers working night shifts because
(01:45:14)
that was the best job I could get to pay
(01:45:16)
for the the rent that I had every month
(01:45:18)
if I had had a baby at that exact moment
(01:45:20)
in
(01:45:21)
time I don't think I would be the it
(01:45:24)
wouldn't it wouldn't resonate with me
(01:45:26)
what you're saying about being the
(01:45:27)
architect of my own destiny because
(01:45:28)
there is like immediate emergencies I
(01:45:30)
can't I can't feed myself let alone a
(01:45:31)
kid so I'll tell you and I also didn't
(01:45:34)
have any family within hours my mom had
(01:45:36)
basically disowned me because I dropped
(01:45:37)
out a university I was alone did you
(01:45:40)
have a baby at 18 no okay I haven't had
(01:45:42)
kids yet I'm hoping to okay so um first
(01:45:46)
of all it's a good reason to use birth
(01:45:48)
control and not have a baby at 18 but
(01:45:50)
okay let's put that aside for a second
(01:45:52)
let's put that aside for a second let's
(01:45:54)
say that what we should be promoting in
(01:45:58)
this world I'm going to say this it's
(01:46:00)
controversial is that whoever is the
(01:46:03)
primary attachment figure has a career
(01:46:06)
that they have control over and
(01:46:08)
flexibility maybe the other person
(01:46:10)
doesn't maybe the other person works for
(01:46:12)
someone or whatever but in my book I
(01:46:14)
interview a lot of different women from
(01:46:16)
a lot of different socioeconomic
(01:46:18)
backgrounds and one of the women that I
(01:46:19)
interviewed was a
(01:46:21)
nanny and she said she had three
(01:46:25)
children and she said that the way that
(01:46:29)
I rais my children because I was a
(01:46:31)
single mother raising three children I
(01:46:33)
had to work to pay the rent she said but
(01:46:37)
I made sure that I didn't work past 5:00
(01:46:40)
I never worked past 5:00 I'd come home
(01:46:42)
at 5:00 I didn't go out at night people
(01:46:46)
would say let's go I said no my children
(01:46:49)
this is my time with my children so I
(01:46:51)
don't go out at night I don't go out on
(01:46:53)
weekends I'm with when I'm not working I
(01:46:56)
am with my children and my children knew
(01:46:58)
that I had to work but the way I used my
(01:47:01)
free time was very
(01:47:05)
carefully um she also said to me and
(01:47:08)
again a number of there are a number of
(01:47:10)
interviews in there she also said that
(01:47:13)
the people who she left her children
(01:47:15)
with she never used daycare she had
(01:47:18)
extended family watch her child so her
(01:47:21)
neighbor who was her dear friend she
(01:47:24)
paid to watch her child and so that
(01:47:28)
person was auntie and that person was
(01:47:31)
like family and was in that child's life
(01:47:33)
forever so what I say about child care
(01:47:36)
is there are different levels of
(01:47:39)
importance so the first the best is your
(01:47:41)
primary attachment figure next best is
(01:47:43)
kinship bonds family or extended family
(01:47:46)
someone who has a similar investment to
(01:47:49)
that child as you do even even if the
(01:47:51)
kid's going to be raised alone at that
(01:47:52)
early age so versus going to daycare
(01:47:55)
will they'll be around other kids no no
(01:47:57)
children don't need other kids until the
(01:47:59)
age of three they do something called
(01:48:01)
parallel play what they need is
(01:48:03)
oneon-one connection they need
(01:48:05)
attachment security and they need their
(01:48:08)
emotional needs met by one person
(01:48:10)
oneon-one
(01:48:11)
um after three then the beginning of
(01:48:14)
preschool then they start to actually
(01:48:16)
interact with one another until then
(01:48:18)
they're not playing together they're
(01:48:19)
just doing parallel play so that's
(01:48:21)
another myth the myth that Day Care is
(01:48:23)
good for children for socialization no
(01:48:27)
children don't need socialization before
(01:48:29)
three unless their mother's with them so
(01:48:32)
what I say is do play dates do play
(01:48:35)
groups but be within eye gaze or ear
(01:48:39)
earshot of a child meaning there's
(01:48:41)
something called um reprosa which is
(01:48:44)
emotional refueling so when children
(01:48:47)
start to explore when you've given them
(01:48:49)
emotional security and they feel so
(01:48:51)
secure that you're going to be there
(01:48:54)
then they start to take chances they
(01:48:56)
start to take risks they start to toddle
(01:48:58)
off that's where the word Tod toddler
(01:49:00)
came from they toddle away but guess
(01:49:02)
what they do for emotional
(01:49:05)
security they look back and they say ah
(01:49:08)
she's there it's okay and then they keep
(01:49:09)
playing or they run back and get a hug
(01:49:13)
and then they run off again you are
(01:49:16)
their Touchstone of security and that's
(01:49:19)
how children become courageous that's
(01:49:21)
how they develop the ability to explore
(01:49:24)
and still feel secure your gut and my
(01:49:26)
gut is the home of our digestion and
(01:49:28)
it's also a gateway to Better Health but
(01:49:30)
it can be hard to know what's going on
(01:49:32)
in there Zoe who sponsors this podcast
(01:49:34)
has one of the largest microbiome
(01:49:36)
databases on the planet and one of the
(01:49:38)
world's most advanced at home gut health
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tests their blood sugar sensor which I
(01:49:42)
have in this box in front of me goes on
(01:49:43)
your arm so you can see how different
(01:49:45)
foods impact your blood sugar then
(01:49:47)
there's the at home blood sample which
(01:49:48)
is really easy and analyzes your body's
(01:49:51)
blood fat and of course the f
(01:49:55)
blue Zoe cookie which tests your
(01:49:58)
metabolism oh and I can't forget there's
(01:50:00)
also a poo sample which is a critical
(01:50:02)
step in understanding the health of your
(01:50:03)
microbiome and you post it all to Zoe
(01:50:06)
and you get your results back which will
(01:50:07)
help you to understand your body's
(01:50:08)
response to different foods using your
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results Zoe's app will also create a
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personalized nutrition plan for you and
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this is exactly why I invested in the
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business so my question to you is how
(01:50:18)
healthy is your gut head to zoe.com to
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order your kit and find out and because
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you're one of our listeners use code
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Steven 10 for 10% off your membership
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head to zoe.com now as you guys know
(01:50:29)
whoop is one of my show sponsors it's
(01:50:31)
also a company that I have invested in
(01:50:34)
and it's one that you guys asked me
(01:50:35)
about a lot the biggest question I get
(01:50:36)
asked is why I use whoop over other
(01:50:38)
wearable technology options and there is
(01:50:40)
a bunch of reasons but I think it really
(01:50:42)
comes down to the most overlooked yet
(01:50:44)
crucial feature it's non-invasive nature
(01:50:47)
when everything in life seems to be
(01:50:49)
competing for my attention I turn to
(01:50:51)
whoop because it doesn't have a screen
(01:50:53)
and will armed the CEO who came on this
(01:50:55)
podcast told me the reason that there's
(01:50:57)
no screen because screens equal
(01:50:59)
distraction so when I'm in meetings or
(01:51:01)
I'm at the gym my whoop doesn't demand
(01:51:03)
my attention it's there in the
(01:51:05)
background constantly pulling data and
(01:51:07)
insights from my body that are ready for
(01:51:09)
when I need them if you've been thinking
(01:51:11)
about joining whoop you can head to
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join. woop.com
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CEO and try whoop for 30 days risk-free
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and zero commitment that's join.
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whoop.com CEO
(01:51:23)
let me know how you get on you keep
(01:51:25)
mentioning but 3 years old yes why three
(01:51:28)
years old and there's kind of like two
(01:51:31)
SE segments to this question that I was
(01:51:33)
Keen to understand is there an element
(01:51:35)
of neuroplasticity that makes the age of
(01:51:38)
three so important and the other kind of
(01:51:40)
sub question I was trying to figure out
(01:51:42)
in my head was is the damage we do
(01:51:45)
before 3 years old to a child
(01:51:47)
inadvertently at all reversible okay and
(01:51:50)
is it damage so plasticity
(01:51:53)
there are certain what we call critical
(01:51:55)
periods of right or social emotional
(01:51:58)
brain development one is 0 to three and
(01:52:00)
it's the most important because what's
(01:52:02)
happening is something called
(01:52:03)
neurogenesis so it's the growth of cells
(01:52:06)
and your presence as a parent who
(01:52:10)
provides Safety and Security buffers
(01:52:12)
your child from stress regulates their
(01:52:15)
emotions is critical to them growing
(01:52:20)
that right brain because 85% of their
(01:52:22)
right brain is developed by three crazy
(01:52:25)
right
(01:52:25)
85% and you being there changes the
(01:52:30)
architecture of that brain that's how
(01:52:32)
important you are like people come up to
(01:52:34)
me in cocktail parties and they'll say
(01:52:35)
to me ah I don't have to be there my
(01:52:38)
babies just sleeping and pooping and you
(01:52:41)
know they don't need me I'm going to be
(01:52:43)
around when they're talking and walking
(01:52:45)
I'm like
(01:52:46)
no like you got it wrong I'm like you
(01:52:49)
have to be here now because now is when
(01:52:52)
the cell GR growth is happening you
(01:52:54)
every time a baby snuggles and takes the
(01:52:57)
breast and looks at you with their eyes
(01:53:00)
and you sing to them thousands millions
(01:53:04)
of synapses are firing okay so you have
(01:53:07)
think of a
(01:53:08)
garden by three years of age you're
(01:53:11)
growing a garden I know because I just
(01:53:13)
started a garden where I have vegetables
(01:53:15)
and flowers and it's abundant it's an
(01:53:17)
abundant I love my garden this is an
(01:53:21)
abundant Garden of brain isssue okay if
(01:53:25)
you do it right it grows it overgrows
(01:53:29)
you know the flowers the vegetables it's
(01:53:31)
growing crazy okay now they go into
(01:53:34)
childhood after 3 years old they go into
(01:53:37)
childhood and for from 3 years old till
(01:53:41)
about 9 years
(01:53:43)
old it's still growing but it's not
(01:53:46)
growing at the same pace so say that
(01:53:48)
it's still like growing a little like
(01:53:50)
like it the garden grows in one big
(01:53:53)
burst and then little bursts so from 3
(01:53:56)
to 9 it's still growing right but not
(01:53:59)
not to the same degree as the first
(01:54:00)
critical period of brain development now
(01:54:03)
adolescence comes 9 to
(01:54:05)
25 and now you have to prune back the
(01:54:08)
garden because if you don't prune back
(01:54:10)
the cells you don't need it's as
(01:54:13)
damaging to the brain as if you didn't
(01:54:15)
grow them to begin with so in these two
(01:54:18)
critical Windows the
(01:54:20)
environment dictates do the sales grow
(01:54:23)
do they get
(01:54:25)
pruned and when they're really little
(01:54:29)
you're their environment you're it tag
(01:54:31)
you're it when they're an adolescence
(01:54:33)
you're a very important part of the
(01:54:35)
environment but not all of their
(01:54:37)
environment they have friends they have
(01:54:38)
school they have activities right and so
(01:54:42)
it's very important if you can get to
(01:54:44)
the first window to get there because
(01:54:46)
you don't know what's going to happen to
(01:54:48)
them and you want to fortify them right
(01:54:50)
you want to fortify them so when they
(01:54:52)
get adolescence which is really painful
(01:54:55)
and hard and a struggle that they have
(01:54:58)
the re the inner resources to to cope
(01:55:01)
with adolescence because it's so hard
(01:55:02)
adolescence right and it offers such
(01:55:05)
adversity social adversity academic
(01:55:07)
adversity right social media so both of
(01:55:11)
these periods are
(01:55:13)
important if you miss the first
(01:55:16)
window what 0 to three yes the title of
(01:55:19)
my second
(01:55:21)
book it's called Chicken Little the sky
(01:55:24)
isn't falling raising resilient
(01:55:26)
Adolescence in the New Age of Anxiety if
(01:55:29)
that isn't a mouthful do you know what
(01:55:31)
the title of the book was supposed to be
(01:55:33)
it was supposed to be second
(01:55:36)
chances oh okay and the title of Being
(01:55:40)
There was supposed to be called The Lost
(01:55:42)
Instinct so if you messed up your kids
(01:55:45)
you get a second chance second chance
(01:55:48)
and what do you do I want people to read
(01:55:50)
the book because it's more nuanced than
(01:55:51)
what I'm saying a lot of what you should
(01:55:53)
have done in the first three years you
(01:55:56)
got to be there you got to be there in a
(01:55:59)
different way you're not going to I mean
(01:56:00)
they're not little little so but when
(01:56:02)
they come home from school if you are
(01:56:06)
not there when the door swings open
(01:56:10)
everybody knows that teenagers close
(01:56:11)
their doors if they have
(01:56:14)
doors and that's their way of saying my
(01:56:17)
defenses are up go
(01:56:19)
away if parents work really hard and
(01:56:22)
then they come home and they go knock
(01:56:24)
knock knock I'm here to spend time with
(01:56:26)
you how how was your day that door is
(01:56:29)
closed closed baby
(01:56:32)
closed if you aren't there when the door
(01:56:35)
opens on its own on their terms if
(01:56:38)
you're not there when they're coming out
(01:56:40)
to get a snack or to take a pee or to
(01:56:43)
take a break from they're studying if
(01:56:44)
you are not there then and open for
(01:56:47)
business for communication the door
(01:56:49)
closes
(01:56:50)
again so it goes back to to this idea
(01:56:54)
that children need you when they need
(01:56:57)
you not when you're personally available
(01:57:02)
and if you miss that window it's not the
(01:57:05)
end of the world because you can a word
(01:57:07)
that we use is to repair you can repair
(01:57:10)
a lot of the damage but to repair the
(01:57:14)
damage you can't go back it's sort of
(01:57:17)
like going to a confessional if you're
(01:57:18)
Catholic you know you go in and you say
(01:57:20)
you know oh Father I you know I I
(01:57:23)
murdered somebody today and the the
(01:57:25)
priest says well you know say 12 hell
(01:57:27)
mares and I don't know I'm not Catholic
(01:57:29)
but you know but you can't go out and
(01:57:31)
murder again so if you're going to
(01:57:33)
repair it means that whatever happens
(01:57:37)
between you and your child you're trying
(01:57:39)
to be a better parent you're trying to
(01:57:41)
do things differently right you can't
(01:57:44)
take advantage of their good graces and
(01:57:48)
keep pushing them away pushing them um
(01:57:51)
but repair is possible because the brain
(01:57:54)
is plastic and it's always growing and
(01:57:56)
shrinking until it's not what if I'm 30
(01:57:58)
years old for example and I had a
(01:58:01)
traumatic upbringing can I repair myself
(01:58:04)
from the childhood trauma that I
(01:58:05)
experienced between the ages of zero and
(01:58:08)
10 the way that I would put it is it
(01:58:11)
takes a relationship to cause the trauma
(01:58:13)
and it takes another relationship to
(01:58:15)
repair
(01:58:17)
it so the thing that most people don't
(01:58:21)
understand about therapy
(01:58:23)
and why I really recommend psychodynamic
(01:58:27)
Psychotherapy some people would say
(01:58:29)
psychoanalytic therapy but a more
(01:58:32)
indepth kind of therapy that lasts
(01:58:35)
longer is because you develop a
(01:58:38)
relationship it's not that you are
(01:58:41)
healed from some pithy thing that the
(01:58:43)
therapist says I mean I wish I was so
(01:58:45)
smart that I could say this and you know
(01:58:48)
everybody would say you're you're a
(01:58:49)
genius and pay me millions of dollars
(01:58:52)
doesn't work like that therapy requires
(01:58:55)
the consistency of a relationship with
(01:58:58)
the therapist because it's through that
(01:59:01)
therapist seeing you through the ups and
(01:59:03)
downs of your life reflecting your
(01:59:06)
feelings it's it's a kind of emotionally
(01:59:09)
reparative experience but it's not what
(01:59:11)
the therapist says as much as the
(01:59:14)
relationship the long-standing
(01:59:15)
relationship with the therapist so
(01:59:17)
what's healing is the
(01:59:19)
relationship rather than the
(01:59:21)
interpretations and can that be a
(01:59:23)
romantic relationship that then course
(01:59:25)
corrects you in some regard okay so the
(01:59:28)
idea is that um to really heal it
(01:59:31)
requires relationships and those
(01:59:34)
relationships sometimes can be people
(01:59:36)
that you love the problem with people
(01:59:39)
that you love is that you end up
(01:59:40)
burdening those
(01:59:42)
people with you can burden overburden
(01:59:45)
the people that you love with your
(01:59:47)
conflicts your internal losses so you
(01:59:50)
know if you find yourself
(01:59:53)
using the people that you love like
(01:59:55)
therapists if you find that you're using
(01:59:57)
the people that you love um to to deal
(02:00:01)
with past losses I would say it can it
(02:00:05)
can corrupt the relationship so you have
(02:00:06)
to be careful so the reason to go to a
(02:00:08)
therapist would be to preserve the
(02:00:11)
relation it's not that you don't share
(02:00:13)
with the person that you love but you
(02:00:14)
don't want to overburden your friends or
(02:00:17)
your lovers with the burdens of your
(02:00:19)
childhood trauma right so I always say
(02:00:22)
that
(02:00:23)
therapy becomes like a safe container
(02:00:25)
you go to therapy you talk to your
(02:00:27)
therapist you develop this trusting
(02:00:29)
relationship where where everything is
(02:00:33)
is is left there so to speak in that
(02:00:36)
container until you come back but
(02:00:39)
therapy is not for everyone it requires
(02:00:41)
laying down your defenses it requires
(02:00:43)
the ability to be open and talk about
(02:00:46)
your feelings there are types of
(02:00:48)
therapies that you can go to if you
(02:00:50)
can't talk about your feelings things
(02:00:51)
like DBT or CBT but you know for the
(02:00:55)
most part healing therapy requires being
(02:00:58)
open it requires trusting you must
(02:01:00)
encounter a lot of people that are in
(02:01:01)
denial about their childhood trauma and
(02:01:04)
the role it's played in shaping who they
(02:01:06)
are because you'll have people come to
(02:01:07)
you I'm sure that are exhibiting adult
(02:01:09)
symptoms like maybe they can't form
(02:01:11)
relationships very well um maybe they've
(02:01:15)
got other forms of emotional eratic
(02:01:16)
behavior and there must be occasions
(02:01:18)
where you have a suspicion yeah that
(02:01:21)
it's linked to some Al experience and
(02:01:23)
they're in denial thinking about people
(02:01:26)
that I know that are have presenting
(02:01:29)
symptoms in their life really sort of
(02:01:31)
like chronic presenting symptoms but if
(02:01:33)
you were to ask them if their childhood
(02:01:35)
played a role they're almost like
(02:01:36)
defensive of their childhood so defenses
(02:01:40)
are
(02:01:41)
important defenses protect us so and
(02:01:44)
people also have a misunderstanding of
(02:01:46)
what therapy is about the kind of
(02:01:48)
therapy I'm a psychoanalyst so we don't
(02:01:50)
people think you go to therapy and they
(02:01:52)
take your defenses away from you I would
(02:01:54)
never take someone's defenses away
(02:01:56)
unless I could help them to replace them
(02:01:59)
with healthier defenses so what we do is
(02:02:02)
in exchange like you don't take your
(02:02:04)
foot off a landmine unless you have a
(02:02:05)
really big rock to put in its place
(02:02:08)
right so if you're going to let go of
(02:02:11)
one defense you have to trust the person
(02:02:13)
you're working with that you'll find a
(02:02:15)
better healthier defense to protect you
(02:02:17)
give me an example if you used
(02:02:20)
anxiety in child childhood if you use
(02:02:23)
the
(02:02:24)
anxiety
(02:02:26)
to to get
(02:02:28)
attention what if you complained as a
(02:02:30)
child and you went around and said you
(02:02:32)
know oh I you know I'm worried about
(02:02:34)
this and I'm and and so in a way it
(02:02:36)
serves a purpose that anxiety that um
(02:02:41)
that complaining that expression of
(02:02:42)
emotion it gets the attention from your
(02:02:44)
parents and suddenly and I do believe
(02:02:47)
that there's a lot of this going on a
(02:02:49)
lot of kids are breaking down and saying
(02:02:51)
I'm anxious I'm depressed I do think
(02:02:54)
many of them are but I also think that
(02:02:57)
many of them need their parents to
(02:03:00)
understand
(02:03:01)
them so that would be what I call it's a
(02:03:05)
defense but it's an unhealthy defense
(02:03:07)
because what ends up happening is that
(02:03:10)
the parents stop being able to hear them
(02:03:14)
because they complain and the anxiety
(02:03:16)
starts to grade on the parents and the
(02:03:18)
parents pull away right um and so what
(02:03:22)
would be a better defense for that child
(02:03:24)
is to learn how to express what they
(02:03:27)
need from their parents instead of just
(02:03:29)
saying I feel anxious or I feel
(02:03:31)
depressed but to actually say you know
(02:03:33)
Mom and Dad you don't really spend any
(02:03:36)
time with me you don't really and when
(02:03:38)
you're home you're distracted and you're
(02:03:40)
on your computer and your iPads and and
(02:03:44)
you're not you don't really seem that
(02:03:45)
interested in me and so that's a better
(02:03:48)
way of going about getting the attention
(02:03:51)
that they need so you're never taking
(02:03:52)
something away from someone unless you
(02:03:54)
have something better to give them and
(02:03:57)
that's a myth of therapy right so people
(02:03:59)
feel that they're going to go into
(02:04:01)
therapy and be left defenseless now
(02:04:04)
defensiveness which you mentioned is a
(02:04:07)
different thing entirely when someone is
(02:04:10)
defensive it means that it's um an
(02:04:13)
unhealthy defense it means that you hit
(02:04:17)
something so when you say to your friend
(02:04:18)
do you have any childhood trauma and
(02:04:20)
they say absolutely not what are you
(02:04:23)
that defensiveness as opposed to someone
(02:04:25)
who says you know I I can't think of any
(02:04:29)
I maybe maybe what you know so the
(02:04:32)
ability to introspect about the good and
(02:04:35)
the bad and integrate the good and the
(02:04:37)
bad is a is a healthy sign if you have a
(02:04:39)
friend who can't talk about the sadness
(02:04:41)
of their
(02:04:42)
childhood or a friend who can't talk
(02:04:45)
about the happiness who can't integrate
(02:04:47)
the good and the bad of their childhood
(02:04:49)
you know something happened there and if
(02:04:51)
you have a friend who won't talk at all
(02:04:53)
then you really know something happened
(02:04:55)
there you hit a sensitive spot are daddy
(02:04:59)
issues real because the term is thrown
(02:05:01)
around in culture like oh she has daddy
(02:05:03)
issues it's typically she has daddy
(02:05:05)
issues isn't it right so there's
(02:05:07)
something called edible development
(02:05:09)
which is sexual development it's really
(02:05:12)
relational development but it's sexual
(02:05:13)
development which is that all little
(02:05:16)
boys fall in love romantically with
(02:05:18)
their mothers and want to marry them so
(02:05:21)
all little boys say I want to marry you
(02:05:22)
Mommy Daddy get lost it's sort of like
(02:05:25)
that and all little girls want to be
(02:05:27)
Daddy's Little Princess and marry Daddy
(02:05:29)
and want Mommy to get lost and it's this
(02:05:31)
period of
(02:05:33)
about oh 3 to six 3 to six years old and
(02:05:38)
I always prepare parents for this
(02:05:41)
fathers need to reinforce themselves and
(02:05:43)
feel secure enough so when they're
(02:05:45)
little boys who have been their buddies
(02:05:47)
and who have loved them when their
(02:05:48)
little boys say bye-bye Daddy get lost
(02:05:52)
they don't react they don't go into a
(02:05:55)
deep depression they just they hold it
(02:05:57)
and they say oh I get it you love Mommy
(02:05:59)
that's okay same with little girls if
(02:06:02)
their mothers overreact become angry at
(02:06:06)
them reject them say oh you just love
(02:06:08)
your daddy and so but if daddies are not
(02:06:12)
present enough for little girls it does
(02:06:16)
inform so our first romantic
(02:06:19)
relationships are with our opposite sex
(02:06:21)
parent so as a little boy your first
(02:06:23)
romantic relationships with your mother
(02:06:25)
as a little girl your first romantic
(02:06:27)
relationships with your father if your
(02:06:29)
opposite sex parent is not present at
(02:06:32)
all there's a loss
(02:06:35)
there so you know sometimes what can
(02:06:38)
happen is if you don't have a present
(02:06:41)
father or if your father is really just
(02:06:43)
absent or if he's physically present but
(02:06:46)
emotionally absent you spend your life
(02:06:49)
looking for that kind of edible
(02:06:51)
connection that kind of admiration that
(02:06:54)
kind of love that kind of um you know
(02:06:57)
for someone to love you in the way that
(02:06:59)
a father loves a little girl but with
(02:07:01)
distrust built
(02:07:03)
in well not necessarily I mean sometimes
(02:07:06)
it's too much trust I mean if you are
(02:07:10)
hungry and somebody offers you scraps
(02:07:13)
you'll take the scraps right if you're
(02:07:15)
hungry and somebody says here's some
(02:07:17)
crumbs of a muffin so the problem is
(02:07:20)
that but what if they
(02:07:22)
offered me the scraps and sometimes the
(02:07:25)
scraps as I went to reach for them
(02:07:26)
walked out and didn't come back then I
(02:07:29)
might develop a relationship that it's
(02:07:31)
not safe to trust the scraps because so
(02:07:34)
that's a father who's negligent but it
(02:07:37)
still leaves that little it still can
(02:07:39)
leave that little girl with a strong
(02:07:42)
desire to be loved in that way so it's
(02:07:45)
like a missing there's a missing piece
(02:07:48)
right so you'd say the Romantic
(02:07:50)
relationship with the opposite sex
(02:07:52)
parent is a very important part of our
(02:07:55)
sexual development and our relational
(02:07:58)
development and so it becomes a missing
(02:08:00)
piece for that child who then grows into
(02:08:03)
that adult um if a father was
(02:08:06)
abusive to a little girl then you know
(02:08:10)
that little girl may do what we call a
(02:08:12)
neurotic repetition which is she seeks
(02:08:14)
out abusive men because that's the only
(02:08:16)
kind of love that she knew or understood
(02:08:19)
so you know you have to remember that
(02:08:21)
that
(02:08:22)
children perceive of the relationship
(02:08:24)
with your with their parent as loving no
(02:08:26)
matter what the parent does to them I
(02:08:28)
used to work when I was a young social
(02:08:30)
worker in foster care and the children
(02:08:33)
who were physically abused by their
(02:08:36)
parents and neglected terribly still
(02:08:39)
wanted to be with their mothers and
(02:08:41)
fathers they didn't want to be taken
(02:08:43)
away because that's that was their
(02:08:45)
mother and father and they perceived of
(02:08:47)
that as love so however we're raised we
(02:08:51)
perceive of that that is love the
(02:08:52)
problem is if it's not healthy love then
(02:08:54)
we can neurotically repeat or repeat
(02:08:57)
that in our adult lives men young boys
(02:09:01)
and men I was looking at some stats
(02:09:03)
earlier on that said there's been
(02:09:06)
increased sexual inactivity amongst
(02:09:08)
young men which is an interesting stat
(02:09:09)
it's risen to almost 31% of men between
(02:09:12)
the ages of 18 and 24 reporting no
(02:09:14)
sexual activity in the past year so
(02:09:17)
that's almost doubled in a in about the
(02:09:19)
space of 18 years here's a interesting
(02:09:21)
St
(02:09:22)
High suicide rates amongst men men
(02:09:24)
account for nearly 80% of all suicides
(02:09:25)
in the US the highest rate observed
(02:09:27)
among 45 to 6 four yearolds globally
(02:09:31)
suicide is the leading cause of death
(02:09:32)
amongst young men and a survey conducted
(02:09:34)
in the UK found that an increasing
(02:09:36)
amount of men feel hopeless and
(02:09:40)
worthless and that are struggling with
(02:09:42)
finding meaning and purpose in the
(02:09:45)
world the plight of young men you talk
(02:09:47)
in your books and in your work about
(02:09:50)
yeah how the role of a man has changed
(02:09:52)
and how that this might not be
(02:09:54)
necessarily productive for the health
(02:09:56)
and well-being of a man yeah we've taken
(02:09:59)
away their purpose when you take a human
(02:10:00)
being's purpose
(02:10:02)
away remember the purpose for men was to
(02:10:05)
protect their family was to it was to
(02:10:10)
hunt in the old days feed their families
(02:10:13)
but it was also to protect their
(02:10:15)
families it was to provide for their
(02:10:18)
families and what we've done in
(02:10:20)
reversing everything thing is although
(02:10:23)
we raised up women and there are
(02:10:25)
certainly positive things about raising
(02:10:28)
up women but when we raised up women we
(02:10:31)
denigrated men and I have two sons so
(02:10:33)
this is very personal for me um and I
(02:10:38)
also see a lot of young men in my
(02:10:39)
practice um young adult men and what
(02:10:42)
I'll say is that they feel discouraged
(02:10:45)
they feel
(02:10:47)
purposeless they feel
(02:10:49)
diminished um yeah and there has been
(02:10:53)
something vengeful I
(02:10:55)
think about so the feminist movement was
(02:11:00)
meant to give women choice and to
(02:11:02)
balance off what was imbalanced in
(02:11:04)
society but there's something vengeful
(02:11:07)
about it I think at moments I feel like
(02:11:09)
there's something vengeful about the
(02:11:11)
modern feminist movement which is let's
(02:11:14)
get them let's diminish them let's take
(02:11:17)
over let's push them out let's you know
(02:11:19)
let's beat them up let's get you know
(02:11:21)
let's show them who's I mean something
(02:11:23)
really vengeful so it in so for me the
(02:11:26)
feminist movement was meant to create
(02:11:29)
balance it wasn't meant to it it wasn't
(02:11:32)
meant to set into play this other kind
(02:11:35)
of imbalance and you know more than I
(02:11:38)
think 60% of universities are women now
(02:11:42)
as well as graduate schools and so that
(02:11:44)
means and the study show that men will
(02:11:47)
marry at their educational level or
(02:11:50)
below women will only marry at their
(02:11:53)
educational level or
(02:11:55)
above and by diminishing men so much in
(02:12:00)
terms of our education and professions
(02:12:04)
we basically taken men's purpose away
(02:12:06)
they feel purposeless and the other
(02:12:09)
thing is and I'm going to
(02:12:11)
say when men stay home to nurture their
(02:12:14)
children now remember as mammals we have
(02:12:16)
defined roles that is not instinctual
(02:12:19)
for men to stay home and nurture their
(02:12:20)
young it's just it's a reverse of
(02:12:23)
something and the issue there is that
(02:12:27)
there's an inverse relationship between
(02:12:31)
oxytocin and
(02:12:33)
testosterone the higher the
(02:12:35)
oxytocin guess what the L the
(02:12:38)
testosterone
(02:12:39)
yes so if we're staying at home bonding
(02:12:42)
there Reas for that so
(02:12:45)
mammals when they are nurturing their
(02:12:48)
young they don't want somebody mating
(02:12:51)
with them go away right so the idea is
(02:12:54)
that when a female nurtures she doesn't
(02:12:58)
want to have sex she doesn't want to
(02:13:01)
right so the investment in nurturing
(02:13:04)
pushes away the investment in mating and
(02:13:07)
this is why I've read so many stats
(02:13:09)
around men's testosterone dropping when
(02:13:11)
they become fathers um some yeah I I
(02:13:16)
couldn't believe that was true when I
(02:13:17)
read it it's true there was some studies
(02:13:20)
to talk about how women's testosterone
(02:13:22)
goes up women have testosterone when
(02:13:25)
they're out in the Work World fighting
(02:13:27)
like men that their testosterone goes up
(02:13:29)
and men's testosterone when they stay
(02:13:31)
home goes down now what that's doing for
(02:13:33)
sex lives um there's some research about
(02:13:36)
you know it that is the next wave which
(02:13:40)
is what does it do to sex lives because
(02:13:42)
men have to perform they have to get it
(02:13:44)
up to be crude tell me about it um and
(02:13:47)
so if your testosterone is low you're
(02:13:50)
not going to get it up
(02:13:52)
right which is why there's all this
(02:13:53)
Viagra and these patches and supplements
(02:13:56)
and you know because it's not it's not
(02:14:00)
instinctually normal for husbands to
(02:14:02)
stay home and nurture their children and
(02:14:04)
that's the Inconvenient Truth how that
(02:14:07)
affects men's and women's sex life when
(02:14:10)
women come home from their banking jobs
(02:14:12)
and their law jobs um did their
(02:14:16)
husbands not want to have sex with them
(02:14:18)
and you know is that breaking up so I
(02:14:20)
mean so this is all I think this is the
(02:14:22)
next wave of we've revers things
(02:14:25)
societally so
(02:14:27)
fast and then we hope that our
(02:14:30)
evolutionary bodily responses are just
(02:14:34)
going to catch up in in merely a a
(02:14:37)
century and it just doesn't Evolution
(02:14:39)
doesn't work like that it takes hundreds
(02:14:42)
if not thousands of years to change our
(02:14:45)
our bodily evolutionary responses right
(02:14:47)
our instinctual responses so this is you
(02:14:50)
know it's it's problematic um and also
(02:14:54)
when men's testosterone goes down they
(02:14:56)
get depressed so they don't perform
(02:14:58)
sexually well they get depressed they
(02:15:01)
feel
(02:15:02)
purposeless um they can't do what
(02:15:05)
they're instinctually supposed to do
(02:15:07)
which is provide protect hunt you know
(02:15:11)
we talk about Dei I mean why aren't we
(02:15:13)
talking about Dei when it when it when
(02:15:16)
it comes to men and women why aren't we
(02:15:18)
talking about balancing the scales
(02:15:21)
giving purpose again um and and honestly
(02:15:24)
we should be talking about what happens
(02:15:26)
to men when they actually do stay home
(02:15:28)
and nurture their young is this stats to
(02:15:30)
support the idea that if you're at home
(02:15:32)
raising your kids as a man you have you
(02:15:34)
struggle in the
(02:15:36)
bedroom so there was some research I
(02:15:38)
know that was going on about that how it
(02:15:40)
affects sex drive but when your
(02:15:42)
testosterone goes down it does affect
(02:15:44)
sex drive we're just not talking about
(02:15:47)
it so I have anecdotal patients I have a
(02:15:50)
patient who who
(02:15:52)
whose wife was a hardcore woman in
(02:15:54)
finance and you know he he couldn't he
(02:16:00)
lost interest in her he had to go out of
(02:16:03)
the marriage and have affairs with women
(02:16:05)
who were more feminine who were more so
(02:16:08)
he could feel as if he could play that
(02:16:11)
masculine role he couldn't do that in
(02:16:13)
his
(02:16:14)
marriage and so are we going to
(02:16:18)
see kind of a shift in society as a
(02:16:21)
result result of this we're already
(02:16:22)
seeing it I mean the other thing that
(02:16:23)
we're doing is to young boys let's talk
(02:16:26)
about what we're doing to young boys
(02:16:28)
this starts very young we basically
(02:16:31)
educate young boys in a way that really
(02:16:35)
favors girls you know from a very young
(02:16:39)
age we talk about being able to sit
(02:16:41)
quietly and regulate your emotions and
(02:16:43)
not be aggressive and not be impulsive
(02:16:45)
and these little boys are being
(02:16:47)
diagnosed with ADHD many of them just
(02:16:49)
for being little boys little boys need
(02:16:52)
to run around they have a lot of
(02:16:53)
physical energy they have tons of
(02:16:55)
testosterone when you're like between
(02:16:57)
three and six you have a surge of
(02:16:59)
testosterone and all you want to do is
(02:17:01)
run and jump and play and be outside and
(02:17:03)
what we're doing we're putting them in
(02:17:05)
school making them sit in circle time so
(02:17:07)
so we marginalize them we label them we
(02:17:10)
say they have a problem we say that they
(02:17:12)
have ADHD and they have behavioral
(02:17:15)
problems and in many of them the stress
(02:17:17)
that I talked about is the stress of
(02:17:19)
making little boys be more like little
(02:17:22)
girls and that's where it starts and so
(02:17:25)
then they go into
(02:17:27)
childhood and again the educational
(02:17:30)
system favors the way girls learn not
(02:17:32)
the way boys learn how to boys learn
(02:17:35)
boys have attention spans for very short
(02:17:39)
periods of time and then they need lots
(02:17:41)
of physical activity so ideally if you
(02:17:44)
go to and look at the boy schools what
(02:17:46)
do they do they run the boys like
(02:17:49)
running the dogs in the park
(02:17:51)
they sit for 45 minutes or half an hour
(02:17:54)
but then the boys get time off to run
(02:17:56)
around and then they'll sit another half
(02:17:58)
an hour and then they'll run around I
(02:17:59)
mean they have like four ree peries a
(02:18:01)
day and so that's really better for boys
(02:18:06)
and little girls have more of a capacity
(02:18:08)
to sit quietly in circle time and and
(02:18:11)
sort of you know they're they don't have
(02:18:13)
as much testosterone they don't have
(02:18:14)
that need to run and jump and play to
(02:18:16)
the same degree that little boys do they
(02:18:18)
do need to play we're not letting our
(02:18:20)
kids play boys and girls because we're
(02:18:22)
trying to force left brain development
(02:18:24)
on them too early but we are forcing
(02:18:28)
little boys into this box and they're
(02:18:32)
not doing well in that box and then
(02:18:34)
they're labeled they're labeled as
(02:18:36)
having behavioral problems ADHD and that
(02:18:38)
label them follows them through
(02:18:41)
childhood sometimes into Middle School
(02:18:44)
into into high school yeah what would
(02:18:48)
you change I make you prime minister of
(02:18:50)
the world president of the world and you
(02:18:52)
can fix this issue oh I would have
(02:18:54)
little boys educated separately than
(02:18:57)
little girls in the early years in the
(02:18:58)
early years I would have boy schools and
(02:19:01)
girl schools because little little girls
(02:19:02)
learn differently and also there's been
(02:19:04)
a lot of evidence to show that in the
(02:19:05)
early years when you do single gender
(02:19:09)
education little girls will try things
(02:19:12)
will take risks with things that they
(02:19:15)
wouldn't in front of little boys and
(02:19:16)
little boys will try things that they
(02:19:18)
wouldn't take risks in front of little
(02:19:19)
girls like little boys are more like to
(02:19:21)
try art and painting and music little
(02:19:24)
girls are more likely to try stem and
(02:19:26)
math and you know all these things that
(02:19:28)
we talk about little girls should do so
(02:19:30)
the the idea is that um single gender
(02:19:34)
education in the early years is is
(02:19:36)
better for little kids because they
(02:19:38)
learn differently what about as it
(02:19:39)
relates to men what would you change to
(02:19:42)
fix the issues you were talking about
(02:19:43)
with testosterone and those kinds of
(02:19:47)
issues talk about it we should be
(02:19:50)
talking about it we don't talk about
(02:19:52)
this issue how much how many times have
(02:19:54)
you heard what I just said people don't
(02:19:56)
talk about the fact that when you raise
(02:19:59)
when if we're going to flip this around
(02:20:01)
and have men be the nurturers they're
(02:20:03)
going to have pretty low
(02:20:04)
testosterone you're going to have to
(02:20:07)
supplement their
(02:20:08)
testosterone and so you know and also
(02:20:12)
you take their purpose away
(02:20:13)
evolutionarily and they get depressed
(02:20:16)
women have many sources of self-esteem
(02:20:21)
they have work they have children
(02:20:23)
they're
(02:20:24)
relational and for the most part
(02:20:28)
historically men found their self-esteem
(02:20:30)
from meaningful and purposeful work and
(02:20:33)
also from protecting their families so
(02:20:35)
what we've done is we've taken their
(02:20:36)
purposeful work outside the home away
(02:20:39)
we've made their purposeful work staying
(02:20:40)
home with children and you know we've
(02:20:44)
lowered the testosterone so if you look
(02:20:46)
at it and say we're trying to switch
(02:20:49)
it's like a social experiment we're
(02:20:50)
trying trying to change something that's
(02:20:53)
taken thousands of years of evolution to
(02:20:55)
create in just you know less than 100
(02:20:59)
years and it's you know it's
(02:21:02)
problematic so what would I do I would
(02:21:05)
talk about it I would have couples talk
(02:21:06)
about it I think they need to talk about
(02:21:09)
the competitiveness I think they need to
(02:21:11)
talk about the the envy and the jealousy
(02:21:16)
and and even the the disappointment I
(02:21:19)
mean a woman who comes home and sees her
(02:21:21)
husband caring for the children on the
(02:21:23)
one hand she might say oh my husband's
(02:21:24)
so sweet and lovely and I love that he
(02:21:26)
cares for my children and on the other
(02:21:27)
hand she says to her friends I wish he
(02:21:30)
was bringing in more money and I wish he
(02:21:31)
was taking care you know I wish he was
(02:21:33)
taking care of me so it's problematic
(02:21:36)
there was a longitudinal study done in
(02:21:37)
the Philippines that followed 624 men
(02:21:40)
over almost 5 years and found that those
(02:21:42)
who became fathers experienced a
(02:21:44)
significant decline in testosterone
(02:21:45)
levels specifically newly partnered
(02:21:48)
fathers had a medium decrease of almost
(02:21:51)
30% in morning testosterone and 35% in
(02:21:53)
evening testosterone which were
(02:21:55)
significantly greater than the declines
(02:21:56)
observed in single nonfathers moreover
(02:21:59)
fathers who reported spending three or
(02:22:02)
more hours daily in child care had lower
(02:22:04)
testosterone levels compared to those
(02:22:07)
less involved in caregiving and there's
(02:22:08)
also an impact on co-sleeping where
(02:22:10)
Research indicates that fathers who
(02:22:12)
co-sleep with their children exhibit
(02:22:14)
lower testosterone levels than those who
(02:22:15)
do not this suggests that close
(02:22:18)
proximity during sleep May further
(02:22:19)
influence hormonal changes of associated
(02:22:21)
with parental caregiving one of the
(02:22:23)
arguments I've heard before as to why
(02:22:25)
men's testosterone dips if they're new
(02:22:28)
fathers is because it's an evolutionary
(02:22:30)
reason to make us not go out and cheat
(02:22:32)
on our partner and take care of our kids
(02:22:34)
well it's investment in it so either
(02:22:36)
you're invested in mating or you're
(02:22:38)
invested in caring for your children yes
(02:22:42)
and no because you still need to have
(02:22:44)
testosterone to have a relationship with
(02:22:47)
your wife a satisfying relationship so
(02:22:50)
and un unfortunately that doesn't stop
(02:22:52)
men from going out and cheating on their
(02:22:54)
wives because a healthy man would say
(02:22:57)
you know well we used to have sex twice
(02:22:59)
a day every day and now that we have a
(02:23:01)
baby we only have sex once or twice a
(02:23:04)
week because the baby's so small and and
(02:23:06)
a healthy man would say that's enough I
(02:23:09)
can compartmentalize I can right a less
(02:23:11)
healthy man might say I'm going to go
(02:23:14)
out and get it someplace else because I
(02:23:16)
can't get it here so yeah I mean there's
(02:23:19)
Nuance to all the question you're asking
(02:23:21)
but what I would say is that
(02:23:23)
testosterone going down a little bit
(02:23:25)
when you have a baby in the bed is fine
(02:23:27)
but the kind of testosterone we're
(02:23:29)
talking about going down when you stay
(02:23:31)
home and
(02:23:32)
nurture
(02:23:33)
um we'll see it could be problematic my
(02:23:37)
last question is about devices and
(02:23:39)
Technology yeah there's been a lot of
(02:23:40)
books written recently and a lot of
(02:23:41)
conversation around the impact that
(02:23:43)
screen social media mobile phones have
(02:23:45)
on children what is your thoughts and
(02:23:48)
philosophy towards raising healthy kids
(02:23:50)
in a world of techn
(02:23:51)
ology well I think it's the American
(02:23:53)
Pediatric Association says no technology
(02:23:56)
under the age of two for good
(02:23:58)
reason no iPhones no iPads right um you
(02:24:04)
want to sit and watch a Mr Rogers when
(02:24:08)
your baby is two together a rerun of Mr
(02:24:11)
Rogers Neighborhood that's fine but no
(02:24:14)
technology after that you want to really
(02:24:17)
regulate that technology now why is that
(02:24:19)
important because Tech
(02:24:21)
techology raises dopamine levels in your
(02:24:24)
brain which is why adults get addicted
(02:24:27)
to it too it's very addictive um and the
(02:24:30)
problem is that with
(02:24:32)
adults when you when you look at
(02:24:35)
technology it does raise your dopamine
(02:24:37)
but um there there was some research to
(02:24:40)
show that technology raises the dopamine
(02:24:43)
in an adolescence brain tenfold to that
(02:24:46)
of of so in other words it would be like
(02:24:49)
if you smoked a joint
(02:24:51)
it would you know make you high if an
(02:24:54)
adolescent smoke the same joint it would
(02:24:56)
make them 10 times higher it has to do
(02:24:59)
with the um the the sensitivity of the
(02:25:02)
brain to dopamine and the lack of
(02:25:04)
Regulation so um the prefrontal cortex
(02:25:07)
is the part of the brain that regulates
(02:25:10)
emotions and it's not fully developed
(02:25:12)
till about 25 so all that dopamine that
(02:25:15)
has to be regulated is more easily
(02:25:17)
regulated in an adult than an adolescent
(02:25:19)
so it's not not good because it leads to
(02:25:22)
addiction okay it's not good because uh
(02:25:25)
particularly social media but all kinds
(02:25:27)
of Technology they they get the amydala
(02:25:30)
going remember that that little almond
(02:25:32)
shaped stress regulating part of the
(02:25:33)
brain it turns on the stress
(02:25:37)
reaction um which you don't want to do
(02:25:39)
chronically there's lots of problems
(02:25:41)
with that um and in the case of social
(02:25:44)
media with adolescence particularly
(02:25:46)
adolescent girls it takes advantage I
(02:25:50)
mean you have to say that this was
(02:25:52)
invented to take advantage it's not a
(02:25:55)
coincidence uh it's manipulatively
(02:25:58)
created um because the reason that it's
(02:26:01)
so bad for teenage girls brains is
(02:26:04)
because the
(02:26:06)
self-consciousness the
(02:26:08)
perfectionism is all the brain in a
(02:26:12)
hyper Alert state of stress and fear
(02:26:16)
you're putting those girls and boys into
(02:26:19)
a hyper an state of fear and stress
(02:26:23)
right I have to be perfect I don't look
(02:26:26)
as good as them uh my my dress isn't as
(02:26:29)
pretty so so you're putting children
(02:26:31)
into a fear State and then they they
(02:26:34)
can't separate from the device it's like
(02:26:36)
they get there was a movie I think it
(02:26:39)
was called Inception where you could get
(02:26:42)
stuck in a paradigm you could get stuck
(02:26:45)
in this fantasy right in in a virtual
(02:26:48)
reality in a way they get get trapped in
(02:26:52)
this uh Paradigm of
(02:26:55)
perfectionism social isolation
(02:26:58)
self-consciousness which is all the
(02:27:00)
brain in a hypervigilant state of stress
(02:27:04)
anx so not good at all not good for
(02:27:07)
adults much worse for adolescent brains
(02:27:11)
what is the most important thing we
(02:27:12)
should have talked about today that we
(02:27:13)
didn't talk about so
(02:27:15)
far H I think we talked about a lot but
(02:27:18)
um I think you know
(02:27:21)
what I would say is that
(02:27:24)
um presence is just so critical to
(02:27:28)
children and there's no replacement this
(02:27:31)
idea that we have as a
(02:27:33)
society that caregiving of children is
(02:27:37)
something that can be generically
(02:27:39)
assigned to others that you can delegate
(02:27:42)
delegate other things to others delegate
(02:27:45)
your accounting delegate your laundry
(02:27:47)
delegate your cooking if you're a CEO
(02:27:50)
delegate everything you can but spend
(02:27:53)
time with your
(02:27:55)
children your relationship with them
(02:27:58)
their mental health depends upon it and
(02:28:02)
that's not something we say we say work
(02:28:05)
work work work make more money everybody
(02:28:07)
work work work work and and your
(02:28:08)
children will be just fine well clearly
(02:28:11)
our children are not just fine what do I
(02:28:13)
do as an employer I employ lots of
(02:28:15)
people and I'm thinking do I need
(02:28:18)
to give people three years off when they
(02:28:19)
have a kid is that the
(02:28:22)
well in my opinion give them as much
(02:28:25)
time off as you possibly can men and
(02:28:27)
women men and women whoever is the
(02:28:29)
primary attachment figure I would say
(02:28:31)
whoever is going to really be
(02:28:32)
responsible for caring for that child um
(02:28:37)
but then give them options give them
(02:28:39)
choices of how to work in the years that
(02:28:42)
their children are very young give them
(02:28:44)
options to work part-time or to share a
(02:28:48)
job or to work from home half of the
(02:28:51)
week so they don't have to leave their
(02:28:53)
child and still they can work um give
(02:28:57)
them choices and options that allow them
(02:28:59)
for some flexibility and control um if
(02:29:02)
you know that a an employee has young
(02:29:05)
children accept the fact that you know
(02:29:08)
they may need to leave early and not
(02:29:10)
stay as late as as other people who
(02:29:12)
don't have children and that's going to
(02:29:13)
make the people who don't have children
(02:29:15)
angry and you know what tough because
(02:29:18)
that's what those children need life
(02:29:20)
isn't fair it's not always fair and if
(02:29:24)
you want to have a child you too could
(02:29:26)
have
(02:29:27)
that but the idea of exact parody tough
(02:29:31)
because that's what Society needs it
(02:29:33)
needs healthy children if you're going
(02:29:35)
to have a child and you need to leave
(02:29:37)
every day at 4 so you're home for your
(02:29:39)
children so flexibility control options
(02:29:45)
as much time off in the beginning as
(02:29:47)
possible you realize that some of the
(02:29:49)
things you say are controversal
(02:29:51)
or not almost all of them yeah why' you
(02:29:54)
say them anyway because somebody has
(02:29:58)
to because they're the inconvenient
(02:30:00)
truths that are stopping us from having
(02:30:03)
healthy children who grow into unhealthy
(02:30:07)
adults and so somebody has to say these
(02:30:10)
things and if you're too worried about
(02:30:12)
people liking you then you don't
(02:30:15)
sometimes say what needs to be
(02:30:17)
said and fortunately I don't care if
(02:30:19)
people like me but I do care that people
(02:30:22)
like their children and want to be with
(02:30:24)
their
(02:30:25)
children so that's why I say these
(02:30:27)
things why is it so personal to you I
(02:30:29)
can see it in your
(02:30:31)
face well then you'd have to ask me
(02:30:33)
about my own personal story my personal
(02:30:35)
story just to wrap it up quickly is that
(02:30:38)
my own mother was a very loving mother
(02:30:41)
but could dissociate and by dissociate
(02:30:45)
she had a lot of trauma as a child and I
(02:30:47)
think she managed it by emotionally she
(02:30:51)
was like a little girl she's very sweet
(02:30:53)
but she was like a little girl and so I
(02:30:56)
couldn't always feel her I couldn't she
(02:30:59)
was like sand that slipped through my
(02:31:01)
finger so I can remember the pain but
(02:31:04)
she was she was there physically but I
(02:31:06)
could remember the pain of the absence
(02:31:08)
of her
(02:31:09)
mind and uh she could feel for me which
(02:31:13)
is why I have such
(02:31:15)
compassion but she couldn't think about
(02:31:17)
me so there's two things parents have to
(02:31:19)
be able to do for children children they
(02:31:21)
have to be able to feel for them they
(02:31:23)
have to feel empathy for their pain for
(02:31:25)
their distress they cannot look away
(02:31:27)
from their children's pain and distress
(02:31:30)
you cannot look away you do not have the
(02:31:32)
luxury of looking away from your
(02:31:34)
children's distress but you also have to
(02:31:37)
be able to think about them and be able
(02:31:39)
to think about who they are my mother
(02:31:42)
could feel for me but she couldn't think
(02:31:44)
about me cuz she would dissociate so my
(02:31:47)
own personal pain is having had a loving
(02:31:49)
mother who had some
(02:31:51)
limitations and so it made me want to be
(02:31:55)
a better mother but it also made me want
(02:31:57)
to treat people who want to be better
(02:32:00)
mothers and fathers what were the
(02:32:03)
symptoms that that had on you as a young
(02:32:05)
woman growing up as an adolescent I
(02:32:08)
struggled socially and I struggled uh
(02:32:12)
with my identity and personally and you
(02:32:14)
know self-esteem I would say and uh it
(02:32:17)
wasn't until I went into therapy um oh I
(02:32:21)
tried a lot of things in my 20s I worked
(02:32:23)
in television production I worked in uh
(02:32:27)
uh I worked on Capital Hill I worked I
(02:32:29)
worked in many different public
(02:32:31)
relations and in the end I found myself
(02:32:34)
sitting in my therapist office one day
(02:32:38)
and looking around and saying this is
(02:32:40)
where I want to be I want to be I want
(02:32:43)
to do what she does and I want to help
(02:32:46)
people the way she's helped me so that
(02:32:49)
relationship ship with my first
(02:32:51)
therapist and then my second therapist
(02:32:53)
and you know as psychoanalysts we have
(02:32:56)
to be in treatment for many many many
(02:32:59)
years because the point is we have to
(02:33:02)
work on ourselves so deeply that we
(02:33:05)
don't do harm to patients inadvertently
(02:33:08)
with our own issues so we have to be
(02:33:10)
very as we say very organized as a
(02:33:13)
person um but yeah so that's my personal
(02:33:16)
story and why mothering is so important
(02:33:18)
to me and the vulner ility of babies is
(02:33:21)
so important to
(02:33:23)
me Erica we have a closing tradition on
(02:33:25)
this podcast where the last guest leaves
(02:33:27)
a question for the next guest not
(02:33:28)
knowing who they are leaving it for and
(02:33:32)
the question that has been left for you
(02:33:34)
okay is what does your obituary
(02:33:39)
say oh my gosh I'm going to know who
(02:33:43)
left that you're going to tell me
(02:33:46)
after oh boy what does my obituary say
(02:33:52)
um
(02:33:55)
kind
(02:33:57)
generous um
(02:34:02)
compassionate fervent in her beliefs
(02:34:05)
stubborn as
(02:34:06)
hell a good friend a good
(02:34:09)
mother a wonderful
(02:34:13)
wife
(02:34:18)
yeah I think it will
(02:34:21)
I certainly think it
(02:34:22)
will and I think there' also be an
(02:34:25)
additional couple of sentences there
(02:34:27)
that speak to the value that you've
(02:34:28)
given to the world through the work that
(02:34:30)
you do now people might not agree with
(02:34:32)
everything you say because people have
(02:34:33)
lots of different opinions on these
(02:34:34)
subjects but I'm of the opinion that
(02:34:39)
people who are willing to deliver their
(02:34:41)
thoughts their truth based on the
(02:34:43)
science that they've experienced and
(02:34:45)
that they've read and what they've
(02:34:46)
studied and the experiences that they've
(02:34:47)
had the clients that they've seen it's
(02:34:49)
so unbelievably important because I
(02:34:51)
think if we look back through history
(02:34:53)
progress has occurred when people have
(02:34:55)
dissented from the accepted narrative in
(02:34:58)
fact I probably wouldn't be able to sit
(02:34:59)
here in America as a black man if it
(02:35:02)
wasn't for people who had the courage of
(02:35:04)
their convictions to descent from
(02:35:05)
certain narratives and so I've always I
(02:35:08)
think have had it hard worded to me that
(02:35:11)
disagreement is productive especially
(02:35:13)
when it's well-meaning and that's
(02:35:16)
exactly how I see your work I think that
(02:35:18)
you're challenging a narrative
(02:35:20)
um bringing evidence and a new opinion
(02:35:22)
to the table a different perspective
(02:35:24)
that I think is very very important for
(02:35:26)
so many and it's been so interesting for
(02:35:27)
me because I've struggled you know I'm
(02:35:30)
approaching That season of life where I
(02:35:31)
become a father and I'm reading all this
(02:35:33)
stuff about leave your kid to cry on the
(02:35:35)
floor in the supermarket or um put them
(02:35:38)
in timeout or um oh I am so giving you
(02:35:42)
my number yeah I know but I so I've been
(02:35:44)
trying to Wade through this storm of
(02:35:45)
like parenting advice and and
(02:35:47)
stuff and it's it's really wonderful to
(02:35:49)
hear hear your perspective because it is
(02:35:51)
a counter perspective it's the
(02:35:52)
perspective that nobody really wants to
(02:35:54)
say out loud um and therefore for me
(02:35:57)
it's useful thank you Erica thank you so
(02:35:59)
much for your time and generosity today
(02:36:01)
I really really appreciate it and please
(02:36:02)
um continue to do the work you do and
(02:36:04)
I'm very excited for your upcoming book
(02:36:05)
I think it's next year isn't it it is
(02:36:07)
about divorces um if anyone wants to
(02:36:10)
find more of your work we've got these
(02:36:11)
two exceptional books here being there
(02:36:13)
why prioritizing motherhood is the F in
(02:36:15)
the first three years matters which is a
(02:36:17)
wonderful book that was published in
(02:36:18)
2017 I believe and then this one here
(02:36:20)
Chicken Little the sky isn't falling
(02:36:22)
raising resilient Adolescence in the New
(02:36:24)
Age of Anxiety which was published in 21
(02:36:26)
I believe um I'll link both of these
(02:36:28)
below I highly recommend you read these
(02:36:30)
books if you're interested in these
(02:36:31)
subjects like I am um but where else can
(02:36:34)
people find you
(02:36:37)
www.car k m
(02:36:40)
i.com and also at attachment circles the
(02:36:43)
website should be up and running soon uh
(02:36:45)
if you're looking for community and
(02:36:48)
education um
(02:36:50)
come to attachment circles great I'll
(02:36:52)
link both of those below wherever you're
(02:36:54)
listening to this now Erica thank you
(02:36:56)
thank you for having me some of the most
(02:36:58)
successful fascinating and insightful
(02:36:59)
people in the world have sat across from
(02:37:01)
me at this table and at the end of every
(02:37:03)
conversation I asked them to leave a
(02:37:04)
question behind in the famous Diary of a
(02:37:07)
CEO and it's a question designed to
(02:37:09)
spark the kind of conversations that
(02:37:11)
matter most the kind of conversations
(02:37:12)
that can change your life we then take
(02:37:14)
those questions and we put them on these
(02:37:17)
cards on every single card you can see
(02:37:20)
the person who left the question the
(02:37:23)
question they asked and on the other
(02:37:25)
side if you scan that barcode you can
(02:37:26)
see who answered it next something I
(02:37:29)
know a lot of you have wanted to know
(02:37:30)
and the only way to find out is by
(02:37:32)
getting yourself some conversation cards
(02:37:34)
which you can play at home with friends
(02:37:35)
and family at work with colleagues and
(02:37:38)
also with total strangers on holiday
(02:37:40)
I'll put a link to the conversation
(02:37:41)
cards in the description below and you
(02:37:42)
can get yours at the diary.com this has
(02:37:45)
always blown my mind a little bit 53% of
(02:37:48)
you that listen to this show regularly
(02:37:50)
haven't yet subscribed to the show so
(02:37:52)
could I ask you for a favor if you like
(02:37:54)
the show and you like what we do here
(02:37:55)
and you want to support us the free
(02:37:56)
simple way that you can do just that is
(02:37:58)
by hitting the Subscribe button and my
(02:38:00)
commitment to you is if you do that then
(02:38:01)
I'll do everything in my power me and my
(02:38:03)
team to make sure that this show is
(02:38:05)
better for you every single week we'll
(02:38:07)
listen to your feedback we'll find the
(02:38:08)
guest that you want me to speak to and
(02:38:10)
we'll continue to do what we do thank
(02:38:12)
you so much
(02:38:14)
[Music]
(02:38:20)
oh
(02:38:23)
[Music]
