How Broken Schools and #MeToo Dating Broke Our Sons – Erica Komisar (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:01) Erica Komar welcome back to Dad Saves (00:00:04) America thank you for having me John (00:00:07) so you have been the surprise hit on our (00:00:13) Channel thank you not surprised because (00:00:16) your ideas aren't great but just (00:00:18) surprise because we're show that talks (00:00:20) to a lot of guys and you have um you (00:00:24) have resonated in a lot of interesting (00:00:27) ways and a and and I want to dig in (00:00:29) deeper together on a bunch of fronts and (00:00:32) the place I want to start and get your (00:00:35) take on is the psychological crisis (00:00:39) that's happening with our (00:00:41) boys (00:00:43) because there does seem to be something (00:00:45) going on and I've seen it with some of (00:00:47) our other um some other interviews we've (00:00:50) done in the past uh (00:00:52) year where there is an anger there is a (00:00:56) Brokenness and it has shaded into some (00:00:59) behavior that is (00:01:01) frankly kind of contemptible even in the (00:01:03) comments frankly and I I I I'm curious (00:01:08) your perspective as a psychotherapist (00:01:11) and someone that's trying to help people (00:01:12) with this mental health (00:01:15) disaster you know how do you understand (00:01:17) what's going on with boys especially gen (00:01:19) z boys because there's some bad stuff (00:01:22) going on well first Define bad stuff (00:01:26) well let me start with I think a (00:01:32) a reactionary (00:01:33) tendency among a subset who are (00:01:37) struggling and have become anti-woman in (00:01:41) the (00:01:42) extreme it's one thing to be against the (00:01:44) excesses of feminism it's another thing (00:01:45) to become frankly just a woman (00:01:47) hater the relationship collapse a slate (00:01:51) just had an article about the (00:01:54) situationships and the collapse of (00:01:56) romantic relationships among young (00:01:57) people and it's really extreme so (00:02:01) the dating apps is part of that but I (00:02:03) don't think it's the only thing going on (00:02:06) but if you can't if you aren't getting a (00:02:07) chance to have girlfriends if you're not (00:02:10) getting to have the experiences of (00:02:12) adolescence and young adulthood that (00:02:14) give rise to being a full person and (00:02:18) then and then you are in this world that (00:02:20) has been very woke and has been telling (00:02:22) you that the future is female and (00:02:24) there's a lot of things that can trigger (00:02:25) resentment but how you respond to that (00:02:27) is still your own choice so that's what (00:02:30) when I say Brokenness and bad stuff (00:02:32) that's what I'm talking about people who (00:02:34) are instead of finding a way to have (00:02:38) energy and have have forward momentum (00:02:41) are turning Inward and becoming a and (00:02:44) embracing a certain kind of victimhood (00:02:46) that's self-defeating and negative and (00:02:49) then going into online spirals you know (00:02:52) the popularity of the worst aspects of (00:02:54) Andrew Tate is another example of this (00:02:57) there will be people in the comment who (00:02:58) are just angry that you are gonna answer (00:03:01) this question being a woman at all how (00:03:04) dare you so how are (00:03:06) you I've set the table as best I can I (00:03:08) like to think of myself rather than (00:03:10) being a woman as being a therapist how (00:03:12) about that um I agree so what I would (00:03:16) say is you know I I've spoken to you on (00:03:18) your show before about how we diminished (00:03:20) motherhood and women but interestingly (00:03:23) we've also diminished boys and men um (00:03:26) and masculinity um and so you could say (00:03:30) that everything's sort of out of balance (00:03:32) and so I think that this is all a (00:03:35) product of it being out of balance you (00:03:37) know when (00:03:39) we empowered women which was the right (00:03:42) thing to do because women were (00:03:43) disempowered at some point in history so (00:03:45) we said right we got to empower women so (00:03:47) we empowered women um and then women (00:03:52) have (00:03:53) overshot the mark you could say and left (00:03:57) Men Behind in many ways um (00:04:01) 60% of students in University are men (00:04:05) graduate schools I mean are women uh (00:04:07) also in graduate schools are women um (00:04:11) and so I think men feel left behind they (00:04:14) feel disenfranchised we know that the (00:04:16) statistics say that um men will marry at (00:04:19) their educational level or below and (00:04:21) women will marry at their educational (00:04:24) level or above which means that men are (00:04:26) not good good enough for women anymore (00:04:29) and there is an attitud ude uh amongst (00:04:32) women that is um you know in trying to (00:04:37) become competitive with men became (00:04:39) adversarial with men so we say if our (00:04:41) you know instead of thinking of men as (00:04:43) partners we then became adversaries with (00:04:47) men so and that destroyed the team (00:04:51) aspect of relationships um it destroyed (00:04:55) the balance so I'm going to use an (00:04:57) example which is um you know my my uh my (00:05:01) 5-year-old son when he was five he's 25 (00:05:03) now we were going to a conference in (00:05:06) Aspen and he had to go through Denver (00:05:07) and Denver airport is really long and so (00:05:10) we said to our son the connection's (00:05:12) really kind of close so you've got to (00:05:15) run Bryce run and so we all started (00:05:18) running I was running with the baby and (00:05:20) Bryce was running my husband was running (00:05:22) and so we get to the gate just as the (00:05:23) gate is closing and we're all there (00:05:25) except for Bryce because Bryce kept (00:05:28) running and he was at the end of den for (00:05:30) airport so my my husband put his foot in (00:05:32) the door and ran after Bryce and brought (00:05:35) him back my point is that in empowering (00:05:37) women was a good thing but women kept (00:05:41) running and Men got left behind and this (00:05:44) is not a good thing for society that the (00:05:47) um balance of universities and graduate (00:05:49) schools is off um if you look at Nursery (00:05:52) schools or prek they balanced their (00:05:54) classroom 50% boys and 50% girls why (00:05:59) aren't we doing that (00:06:00) um and so you know the the diminishing (00:06:04) of boys has left boys behind but it's (00:06:07) also affected their self-esteem it's (00:06:11) affected their um their feelings of uh (00:06:16) interestingly their feelings of adequacy (00:06:19) and so they're in their bedrooms playing (00:06:21) video games not feeling they they're (00:06:24) good enough or capable of reaching out (00:06:26) to these women I'm going to use another (00:06:28) example my another son 23-year-old son (00:06:31) now he went to a club recently in New (00:06:34) York and he said um I have a lot of good (00:06:37) stories he said that uh Mom all the (00:06:40) women my age were so put together and so (00:06:43) professional and I'm just standing there (00:06:45) in my you know my jeans and my t-shirt (00:06:47) and they all looked so together and I (00:06:50) said to him you know the deal is that (00:06:53) women have always matured before men um (00:06:56) and that's not really unusual so a (00:06:58) 23-year-old woman might look more put (00:07:01) together and have better executive (00:07:03) functioning than a 23-year-old young man (00:07:06) um but that was expectable now those (00:07:11) young men take it as um I shouldn't even (00:07:14) try they're not going to give me a shot (00:07:16) so really the balance is off we have to (00:07:18) rebalance Society I hate to say it but (00:07:21) maybe the idea of quotas and rebalancing (00:07:23) classes and it's it would be a really (00:07:26) good thing because that anger is anger (00:07:29) about being left (00:07:32) behind all right real quick if you like (00:07:34) what you're seeing and you want to see (00:07:36) more be sure to hit the like button (00:07:38) subscribe to the channel and ring the (00:07:40) bell it lets YouTube know that you want (00:07:42) to see more dad Saves America and it (00:07:44) helps spread the word so it's one of the (00:07:46) best things you can do to support what (00:07:47) we're doing and now back to the (00:07:50) show (00:07:52) what what is happening and obviously you (00:07:56) can't talk about it patience in in in (00:07:59) any kind of detail but you know have you (00:08:02) experienced this generically like do you (00:08:05) like what is happening with someone who (00:08:07) who comes to you who's um who's (00:08:10) grappling with this who's got anger (00:08:12) who's got a feeling of um the world is (00:08:14) against them um some of which (00:08:17) justifiably but even so it's not (00:08:19) productive like how do you work with (00:08:23) that person what are the steps you take (00:08:25) to get them to start to be productive to (00:08:28) start to be able to take the steps out (00:08:30) of the (00:08:31) hole psychologically some of it's about (00:08:33) self-esteem you just start at the (00:08:36) Cornerstone of a person which is their (00:08:38) self-esteem right if a if a boy is told (00:08:42) from the time he's really small so let's (00:08:45) go back to the origins because I'm An (00:08:46) Origin person because psychoanalysts are (00:08:48) all origin people um and talk about that (00:08:52) the self is founded from the very (00:08:55) beginning from the first three years and (00:08:58) onward with the concept that boys and (00:09:01) girls are not the same they've never (00:09:05) been the same biologically we're (00:09:06) different hormonally we're different (00:09:08) energetically we're different little (00:09:10) boys produce tons of testosterone when (00:09:12) they're little and it makes them very (00:09:14) energetic and it makes them more (00:09:17) distractable and um a little harder to (00:09:20) manage and that's what testosterone does (00:09:23) and they're being punished because (00:09:24) they're being held to a standard when (00:09:26) they're really little of little girls (00:09:28) who mostly can sit quietly in circle (00:09:30) time and learn in a different way and (00:09:33) and so they're being labeled and (00:09:37) marginalized and um punished and once (00:09:41) they have that label that they're a (00:09:42) problem they have behavioral problems or (00:09:45) uh you know then that follows them into (00:09:48) the primary school years into the middle (00:09:50) school years into the high school years (00:09:51) so you know first we are not (00:09:54) understanding little boys are different (00:09:56) than little girls um and then from the (00:09:59) beginning labeling and criticizing and (00:10:02) marginalizing them and that's the (00:10:04) beginning of the problem um is that (00:10:07) partly (00:10:08) because the education system is so (00:10:12) slanted towards women that there are (00:10:14) it's something like 8 out of 10 K (00:10:16) through 12 teachers are women absolutely (00:10:18) and I think it might even be more (00:10:19) extreme than that when you talk about (00:10:21) like the early ages absolutely I mean (00:10:24) it's it's geared towards girls because (00:10:27) girls learn differently than boys so you (00:10:30) know I always say that it's better to (00:10:32) separate girls and boys in the early (00:10:34) years and then bring them back together (00:10:35) when they're more kind of interested (00:10:37) sexually but you know in the early years (00:10:40) they really learn differently you know (00:10:42) little boys need four recess periods a (00:10:45) day um they need to be able to run to (00:10:48) get their energy out otherwise they (00:10:50) can't learn so the best for boys would (00:10:51) be that and in boy schools they (00:10:53) understand this so in boy schools they (00:10:55) have a recess period and then they have (00:10:58) half an hour of learning and then they (00:10:59) have another period they have a half an (00:11:01) hour of learning um you have to run them (00:11:02) like puppies yes like puppies whereas (00:11:06) with girls you can give them one recess (00:11:08) period a day and they can sit for longer (00:11:12) periods of time in circle time and so we (00:11:15) basically have geared our whole (00:11:16) educational system towards the way girls (00:11:18) learn and of course girls are going to (00:11:20) be more successful in an environment (00:11:21) that's the way girls learn now by the (00:11:23) way girls would also benefit from more (00:11:25) physical exercise and more getting your (00:11:28) energy out right so every benefits from (00:11:30) that but definitely boys benefit from (00:11:32) that more um one of the questions I have (00:11:34) about that and I'm curious if you've got (00:11:36) a sense of what's changed (00:11:38) is the school experience hasn't changed (00:11:42) mechanically that much in the past 50 (00:11:45) years but the change in the in in the (00:11:49) performance and outcome of boys versus (00:11:51) girls has changed somewhat relatively (00:11:55) recently so do you have a sense of what (00:11:57) has triggered the shift (00:12:00) because you know for my generation as a (00:12:03) gen xer I went all through the same (00:12:05) stuff it was like I didn't like school (00:12:08) when I was little and I wanted to run (00:12:09) around and the girls were better than (00:12:11) the boys at school but then actually it (00:12:12) would tend to flip in high school and (00:12:15) then the boys would perform better yeah (00:12:17) and um through for whatever reason but (00:12:22) that's something broke and it's broken (00:12:24) more recently than any changes I can (00:12:26) understand to school but maybe I mean (00:12:28) school's gotten different and ways that (00:12:30) matter but it doesn't seem like the (00:12:33) female concentration or the lack of (00:12:36) physical activities has changed that (00:12:38) much but maybe I'm wrong like how do you (00:12:40) understand that no it it has changed so (00:12:42) what happened is we went more towards (00:12:44) cognitive based learning at a very young (00:12:46) age instead of play based learning so (00:12:49) you know preschool which used to be (00:12:51) called Nursery School was was purely (00:12:53) playb in my my day I'm 60 so we had one (00:12:56) year of preschool four you are four and (00:12:59) you went for two hours a day and you (00:13:01) just played and then in kindergarten you (00:13:03) just played The Garden of children (00:13:05) kindergarten you just played it wasn't (00:13:07) even that (00:13:08) structured um and so now they do (00:13:11) worksheets they get homework exactly it (00:13:13) sucks and you're supposed to know how to (00:13:15) read by the time you enter kindergarten (00:13:16) and know your letters and so what (00:13:18) they're doing is they're cramming (00:13:20) cognitive learning into these little (00:13:22) little children who some of them can (00:13:25) accommodate but there's always a (00:13:26) consequence right and so the consequence (00:13:28) for little boys is they're developing (00:13:30) stress disorders because you're forcing (00:13:32) little boys to learn in ways that (00:13:34) they're not prepared to learn yet and (00:13:36) they develop these stress disorders like (00:13:38) they'll develop distractability it's the (00:13:40) it's the flight part of fight ORF flight (00:13:42) they'll develop behavioral problems (00:13:43) that's the aggression the the fight part (00:13:46) um and so little girls aren't as so all (00:13:49) the research says that little boys are (00:13:51) more sensitive so we say that more uh (00:13:55) more little boys are born in the world (00:13:57) and more little girls survive and that (00:14:00) has to do with the sensitivity both (00:14:01) physical and emotional and neurological (00:14:03) sensitivity of little boys more little (00:14:05) boys are born and more little girls (00:14:07) survive help me understand what that (00:14:09) means because obviously like the (00:14:11) literally 5050 birth rate for boys and (00:14:13) girls what does that mean look worldwide (00:14:15) more boys are born in the world but they (00:14:17) don't survive and the reason they don't (00:14:19) survive is because they're much more (00:14:20) susceptible to physical and emotional (00:14:23) stress so they're literally dying they (00:14:25) literally die yeah there's more infant (00:14:28) mortality with boys than with girls (00:14:30) um boys are more neurologically fragile (00:14:33) it's why there's a higher incidence of (00:14:35) autism in boys right so there's lots of (00:14:37) research to show that some of the rise (00:14:40) in autism has to do with cortisol and (00:14:42) utero that's some of the research that's (00:14:44) going on but basically boys are more (00:14:47) susceptible to stress and so they're (00:14:50) more likely to develop a lot of these (00:14:52) symptoms that we're seeing so we've put (00:14:54) the screws on in school in both boys and (00:14:57) girls but boys are more accepable I (00:15:01) encountered this on a personal (00:15:03) level and it changed the way I (00:15:06) approached education for my son before I (00:15:08) was reading about it and that was the (00:15:10) kindergarten thing so I lived in Verona (00:15:12) New Jersey my son went to the (00:15:14) kindergarten at Our Lady of the Lake and (00:15:17) it was rigorous and he was getting (00:15:19) homework and he hated it and I went to (00:15:21) the principal I've told the story (00:15:23) several times and I asked her am I (00:15:26) missing something didn't it used to just (00:15:28) be play she saides I'm like wasn't that (00:15:31) better she's like yes said why are you (00:15:33) doing this this is your school and she (00:15:35) said the parents demand we keep up with (00:15:37) the standards of the public school (00:15:38) because it was a Catholic school and (00:15:39) they want us to see we're reading the (00:15:42) benchmarks of the rigor of the (00:15:44) standardized (00:15:45) testing and so when we moved to Austin (00:15:49) we put our son in a Waldorf School which (00:15:50) is like the opposite they wen't even (00:15:52) expecting you to read until third grade (00:15:54) so it was a much slower ramp and he (00:15:56) thrived in that um but I didn't know why (00:16:00) that I didn't know why it felt wrong it (00:16:01) just felt wrong I could just see the (00:16:03) discomfort he would scream at the top of (00:16:05) his lungs to go to kindergarten (00:16:09) yeah so it starts young we know that (00:16:13) this kind of diminishing and demeaning (00:16:16) and criticizing of little boy starts (00:16:17) young so you could say that all of this (00:16:19) sort of um uh masculinity hating that's (00:16:24) happening now you know uh toxic masc (00:16:27) masculinity and masculinity hating (00:16:30) um is starts very young you know and so (00:16:33) you asked why young men so to sort of (00:16:36) bring it up to speed why young men feel (00:16:39) so angry at women and I think it's (00:16:42) because of the culture that we've (00:16:44) created which is instead of helping men (00:16:47) and women to see that they it's a team (00:16:50) approach that romantic relationships are (00:16:52) a team approach that um it's okay to be (00:16:55) different um we've created competition (00:16:59) and adversarial relationships and I (00:17:02) think in many cases because women have (00:17:05) been idealized today and men have been (00:17:08) diminished and demeaned um they they (00:17:11) resent the women and and so I think (00:17:14) we've done this to society I think it's (00:17:17) imbalanced I think we have to create (00:17:19) balance again one of the things that I (00:17:21) hadn't thought about until recently was (00:17:23) that gen Z came into middle school high (00:17:26) school against the backdrop of the me to (00:17:30) oh absolutely had and I I haven't (00:17:33) grappled with that another guest had (00:17:35) brought it up and it and it was striking (00:17:39) was like (00:17:40) wow that was happening and at the same (00:17:43) time they also have these screens that (00:17:44) are delivering all the culture News 247 (00:17:48) to them so they're experiencing the (00:17:52) rhetoric of of the me too movement which (00:17:55) had some things that were important but (00:17:56) obviously went too far in other places (00:17:58) well I I'm curious how do you understand (00:18:01) what that moment (00:18:05) did for sex relations at this earlier (00:18:09) age it's it's one thing to be in the (00:18:11) workplace but I mean for for the for our (00:18:13) kids who (00:18:14) were trying to get the courage to ask (00:18:17) the girl to the prom and being (00:18:20) told are you gonna are you know you're (00:18:22) part (00:18:23) of culture and like like how do you (00:18:27) understand what's happened there well (00:18:29) frightened of women I mean young men are (00:18:31) frightened of women um they're they're (00:18:33) frightened of the power that women have (00:18:36) to accuse them (00:18:39) of of you know so I I mean I think again (00:18:43) to look at it in a balanced way is to (00:18:46) say and a more objective way is to say (00:18:49) that at some point (00:18:52) Society idealized men and diminished (00:18:55) women it needed to be balanced but in (00:18:57) trying to balance it we imbalanced it (00:19:00) it's it's it's the way right the (00:19:02) pendulum swings from one side to the (00:19:04) other um women used to resent men (00:19:06) because they were (00:19:08) misogynistic um and now men resent women (00:19:12) because they have so much power over (00:19:15) young men um and young men are afraid (00:19:19) quite frankly the young men who come to (00:19:20) see me are afraid of women either (00:19:23) they're afraid that women are um are (00:19:27) going to reject them because as my son (00:19:29) said they're they all seem so together (00:19:32) and they're all looking for you know (00:19:34) someone who's as together and can make (00:19:36) lots of money because we've also become (00:19:38) a very material culture so the idea that (00:19:40) women will marry only at their level or (00:19:42) above is also (00:19:44) socioeconomically oh yeah for sure you (00:19:46) got to be taller you got to be looking I (00:19:49) mean my son has talked about this he (00:19:51) said the um the expectations even at (00:19:54) high school age are are super extreme (00:19:58) yeah it's perfe for this idealized thing (00:20:02) and the swipe apps allow you to just (00:20:04) filter until you find somebody that (00:20:06) looks like they meet this narrow (00:20:08) criteria and then the way that (00:20:09) distributes is also crazy like the (00:20:12) percentage of candidates that get swiped (00:20:16) in the (00:20:17) affirmative male to female is totally (00:20:20) different yeah so it's like we've got a (00:20:22) lot more men being rejected and a lot (00:20:25) more so there's all these other things (00:20:27) going on well remember remember what I (00:20:29) said about boys being more fragile (00:20:33) they're more neurologically and (00:20:34) emotionally fragile always were it's (00:20:37) just the way of biology they always have (00:20:40) been and so when you take away their (00:20:45) identity and you tell them that being (00:20:48) boys and being masculine is bad and (00:20:51) they're bad um and they're toxic and you (00:20:56) know then you you've basically robbed (00:20:58) them of some of their confidence some of (00:21:01) their identity and then they're afraid (00:21:03) of what women can do to them what young (00:21:05) young women can do to them so it's a (00:21:08) power imbalance really um men and women (00:21:11) should share power always relationships (00:21:14) are meant to be Partnerships men to be (00:21:16) teamwork you know you don't generally (00:21:19) have two CEOs it doesn't generally work (00:21:23) um you have a CEO you have a CFO you (00:21:25) have a head of marketing right in any (00:21:27) company you have different roles that (00:21:28) people play we're not the same we have (00:21:30) different roles we play we're a team and (00:21:33) so that idea has been exchanged for this (00:21:38) idea of competition to be the same so (00:21:42) when women interestingly when women were (00:21:46) empowered they didn't become better (00:21:48) women more like the best women they (00:21:51) could be they became M like men right (00:21:55) even in the culture we've seen this (00:21:56) right the the the superhero the female (00:21:59) superheroes are like a copy and paste (00:22:02) job right it's like now you oh you can (00:22:04) be now you can beat up the giant Russian (00:22:07) agents and I'm not saying that's always (00:22:09) bad I mean we've had great female (00:22:11) superhero characters but there is a kind (00:22:13) of like (00:22:14) thoughtless yeah copy and paste copy and (00:22:17) paste right so I'm going to outdo men (00:22:20) I'm going to be a better man than a (00:22:22) man and so what that diminished again is (00:22:26) the the yin and the Yang the sort of the (00:22:29) the team approach with two different (00:22:33) genders that each had important very (00:22:36) important roles to play in society in in (00:22:40) the workplace and you know so the idea (00:22:43) that you can be equal in intelligence (00:22:46) and ambition but be different too and (00:22:49) that's all been (00:22:51) diminished I um I've been playing around (00:22:55) with something that's a really simple (00:22:57) way to think about some of this (00:22:59) and not probably all that unique but it (00:23:01) seems like we had I call it like the the (00:23:05) cultural bell (00:23:07) curve we had (00:23:10) this natural order of things as tribal (00:23:12) creatures was that if if you sort of say (00:23:14) like along the horizontal axis is (00:23:17) behavior and the vertical is social (00:23:19) acceptance there was a certain set of (00:23:21) behaviors that were accepted and and if (00:23:24) you weren't in the tribe and if you (00:23:27) didn't obey the the the rules of the (00:23:28) tribe were thrown off it looked like a (00:23:30) building it was like flat at the top or (00:23:32) maybe graduated like you know but but (00:23:35) then steep fall off and in response to (00:23:38) that Steep falloff and the total (00:23:40) rejection of anything that wasn't inside (00:23:42) of what's (00:23:43) normal came I think a well-intended (00:23:47) desire to say no the the ideal (00:23:50) state is flat all behaviors are equal (00:23:54) except not not just acceptable but but (00:23:57) but there is no no differences between (00:24:00) any of us between men and women um (00:24:03) between people of different capabilities (00:24:05) nope it's the sort of blank slate vision (00:24:08) of humanity and then the problem with (00:24:10) that was that well the blank slate (00:24:12) except if you're a certain unacceptable (00:24:15) deplorable type and then off the side (00:24:17) you go right and in in reality we've got (00:24:20) this uncomfortable thing we have to face (00:24:22) that is what I'm hearing you say which (00:24:24) is behaviors distribute in certain ways (00:24:28) that are just natural and are different (00:24:30) and there is masculinity and (00:24:32) femininity they're not in two different (00:24:35) worlds but they are different to try to (00:24:37) flatten that doesn't produce Utopia it (00:24:41) produces um a lot of social problems it (00:24:45) is like one step forward three steps (00:24:48) back is that how you think about it yeah (00:24:50) so Freud said that there's masculinity (00:24:52) in femininity in everyone but he didn't (00:24:55) it's always misinterpreted that people (00:24:57) say well that means everybody's bisexual (00:24:59) and that's not exactly what he meant he (00:25:02) meant that we all have masculine and (00:25:04) feminine characteristics just like we (00:25:06) all have estrogen and testosterone we (00:25:08) all have oxytocin and you know and (00:25:10) vasopressin there's different hormones (00:25:12) that we have but to varying degrees I (00:25:14) mean men have much more vasopressin what (00:25:16) we call the protective aggressive (00:25:18) hormone women have more oxytocin the (00:25:20) sensitive nurturing empathic nurturing (00:25:23) hormone um you know men produce oxytocin (00:25:26) too to a lesser degree and when they (00:25:28) produce it it has a different Behavior (00:25:30) Uh associated with it it it's more (00:25:33) playful tactile stimulation with (00:25:35) children uh not sensitive empathic (00:25:37) nurturing you know so um there are just (00:25:41) differences and there have always been (00:25:44) to a varying (00:25:45) degree um you know uh for instance maybe (00:25:50) a woman would have masculine (00:25:52) characteristics but she'd still have (00:25:53) more feminine ones a man might have some (00:25:55) feminine characteristics but still more (00:25:57) masculine ones um and I think what we've (00:26:01) done is we've taken that away uh and (00:26:04) we've said that you know women have to (00:26:07) be 50% masculine or 80% masculine uh men (00:26:11) to be accepted in society as metrosexual (00:26:14) or have to be 80% feminine and so you (00:26:17) know we're not allowing for the (00:26:20) differences and I think that's really (00:26:22) it's sad for society um it's troubling (00:26:26) doing what I do in terms of parenting (00:26:28) and seeing how um children in this whole (00:26:32) Paradigm are the ones who are the losers (00:26:35) they're they're abandoned because if you (00:26:37) have two people vying for the same role (00:26:40) of being masculine then you have nobody (00:26:42) who's vying for the role of being (00:26:44) feminine so some fathers are vying for (00:26:46) the role of being feminine staying home (00:26:47) with their kids it's possible but for (00:26:49) the most part what we have is a society (00:26:51) that's become very masculine but women (00:26:55) are becoming more masculine than men and (00:26:57) that's pissing off men (00:27:00) it's an interesting way to think about (00:27:01) it it's like we're becoming more of the (00:27:05) worst kind of masculine that's (00:27:07) right right not a healthy right (00:27:10) masculinity the healthy part of (00:27:12) masculinity was the protective (00:27:14) aggressive (00:27:15) part um I think I mentioned this on your (00:27:18) last show but for anyone who doesn't (00:27:19) remember it I'll mention it again um (00:27:21) there was a study done where two where (00:27:23) mother and father lay in bed together (00:27:26) and the baby cries and when the baby (00:27:27) cries the mother wakes up CU she's very (00:27:30) Vigilant to the distress of the baby the (00:27:32) father sleeps through the baby's cries (00:27:34) soon as there's rustling of leaves (00:27:36) outside the window the father wakes up (00:27:37) and the mother sleeps through it why (00:27:39) because the father is sensitive to (00:27:41) predatorial threat so what was the good (00:27:43) part of masculinity being protective it (00:27:46) was protective (00:27:48) aggressive nature to protect your family (00:27:51) a father line on the plains of Africa is (00:27:54) going to protect his his group right so (00:27:59) that was the good part of masculinity (00:28:00) and what we've done is we've taken that (00:28:02) away from men women say I don't need you (00:28:05) and you know it's interesting is this (00:28:07) election oh where Trump got up and said (00:28:09) I'm going to protect you and all of the (00:28:12) feminist women said I don't need (00:28:14) protection what do you mean and the (00:28:16) truth is that you know he wasn't (00:28:19) eloquent in saying it but there was an (00:28:21) aspect of masculinity that was I'm the (00:28:24) daddy of the family I'm going to protect (00:28:27) my young I'm going to to protect my (00:28:29) partner who's protecting my young a team (00:28:32) exercise whereas (00:28:35) today women are getting angry about that (00:28:38) they're resenting it and so it leaves (00:28:41) men identityless it leaves them not (00:28:44) knowing who they're supposed to be their (00:28:46) hormones tell them to do one thing but (00:28:49) now women in society are telling them to (00:28:51) do something else it's both confusing (00:28:54) and it strips men of their essential (00:28:56) identity by the way it also strips women (00:28:58) women of their identity right yeah I (00:29:01) mean there's a um it's funny (00:29:04) because immigration is such a big issue (00:29:07) this year and and not just in the US and (00:29:09) Western Europe and and uh you know I'm a (00:29:12) right of Center guy but I am more Pro (00:29:15) immigration on average probably than you (00:29:18) know even my viewers they they know that (00:29:20) you and I are sort of in the same place (00:29:21) you know yeah well maybe yeah right (00:29:24) right to center but still have liberal (00:29:26) values yeah yeah you know properly (00:29:28) understood yeah um human digity (00:29:30) Universal human digity yes and um I (00:29:34) think that (00:29:35) that one of the things that that has (00:29:38) sort of pushed to the macro scale is (00:29:40) exactly what you're talking about a the (00:29:42) destabilizing force the sense of an (00:29:44) actual foreign (00:29:48) aggressor and that the president saying (00:29:50) I will protect you like it's primordial (00:29:54) the sense in which that connected with (00:29:56) people I think not protective aggressive (00:29:58) it was like you know what happened to (00:30:00) this this was part of our (00:30:02) evolutionary sort of way of being for (00:30:05) millennium for thousands of years and (00:30:07) what happened to it in just 75 years you (00:30:11) can't turn around evolution in 75 years (00:30:13) it doesn't work like that right so now (00:30:16) how do you well I have two questions let (00:30:19) me start with the let me start with the (00:30:22) why it's easy to say we we as the (00:30:26) society is very socializing (00:30:29) like definitionally of (00:30:31) responsibility why did this happen this (00:30:34) way how do you understand the causal (00:30:37) forces is it whacked out academics (00:30:41) taking things to the extreme and (00:30:42) overtaking the Academia like it isn't (00:30:46) like we we all woke up and had a (00:30:49) different way of thinking about this (00:30:50) stuff there are players and institutions (00:30:53) and forces that have made this happen so (00:30:57) why how do you understand what's taken (00:30:59) Place well again I benefited from the (00:31:02) feminist movement but I would say the (00:31:04) feminist movement was a little bit (00:31:07) misdirected in in (00:31:09) its telling women that they should (00:31:12) become more like men because from the (00:31:15) beginning they should have said um men (00:31:18) and women are equally important to (00:31:21) society and you have a right to have (00:31:25) choices if you don't want to get me (00:31:28) married and have children you should (00:31:29) have that choice you should have that (00:31:30) choice to be out in the work world or to (00:31:32) work or um but it didn't it it (00:31:37) undermined the differences between men (00:31:39) and women and that was the beginning of (00:31:41) it right and so you know as soon as we (00:31:44) undermine the differences so again women (00:31:47) became more like (00:31:50) men and then men were expected to become (00:31:53) more like women but it seems to me that (00:31:56) women slipped into the role of (00:31:58) masculinity more easily than men slipped (00:32:01) into the role of femininity and there's (00:32:04) a reason I think for it which is that (00:32:07) what was expected of men for millennium (00:32:09) is that they were the (00:32:11) aggressors right yeah they also had to (00:32:14) perform right you have to perform (00:32:16) sexually women don't have to perform (00:32:19) sexually men have to perform sexually (00:32:21) that involves aggression there's an (00:32:23) aggressive so we call it Primal scene (00:32:26) when children walk in on their parents (00:32:27) having sex (00:32:28) because children Perce stuff now yeah (00:32:31) children perceive of it as aggressive (00:32:33) they get scared of it because it looks (00:32:35) like Daddy's doing something terrible to (00:32:37) Mommy and um the truth is it's an (00:32:41) aggressive act it's a loving aggressive (00:32:43) act in most cases unless it's rape it's (00:32:45) a loving aggressive but it is an (00:32:46) aggressive act so men were always the (00:32:48) aggressors it was expected that men (00:32:50) would step forward ask women out um that (00:32:54) men would take the initiative that men (00:32:56) would perform sexually (00:32:59) um and so that was a very important part (00:33:01) of men's identity you take that away (00:33:04) from men and then you have those young (00:33:06) men sitting in their bedroom being (00:33:08) afraid to be the aggressors being afraid (00:33:11) to take the initiation with a with a (00:33:14) woman not only that they'll reject him (00:33:17) but that you know their their (00:33:18) masculinity being diminished they won't (00:33:20) be able to perform I can't tell you how (00:33:22) many young men are on ED medication I (00:33:26) was just thinking this it was the next (00:33:27) question I was going to ask is I I've (00:33:29) read about this and it is as an older (00:33:32) guy it's shocking to me that you that (00:33:34) you're in your 20s and you're going to (00:33:35) struggle to get an erection well there (00:33:37) there are websites now to provide (00:33:39) medications online I won't name them but (00:33:43) it's because they're such a demand I (00:33:44) have a psychiatrist I refer young men to (00:33:47) who specifically deals with the (00:33:49) emotional aspects of Ed it's not (00:33:52) physical you could say it's organic (00:33:54) because um you know the emotions affect (00:33:58) one's physical performance but it's (00:34:01) emotional so again you know men without (00:34:06) their (00:34:07) identity um are lost these young men are (00:34:10) lost they can't perform and what we (00:34:14) don't understand and we're starting to (00:34:16) understand because there's more research (00:34:17) going on when oxytocin levels go up (00:34:21) meaning when men are feminized their (00:34:24) testosterone goes down why because the (00:34:27) in investment in mammals because we're (00:34:29) just mammals the investment in mammals (00:34:33) in nurturing diminishes the investment (00:34:36) and (00:34:38) mating so when we nurture and become (00:34:41) more feminine as men I'm not a man but (00:34:44) your testosterone levels go down so (00:34:47) what's happening is there's less sex (00:34:49) going on and there's less good sex going (00:34:51) on and men are having a hard harder time (00:34:54) performing and they're needing to take (00:34:56) they're needing to take these (00:34:57) medications to perform well I understand (00:35:00) is this part of the sort of the dad (00:35:02) brain effect so you know when you you (00:35:04) know Warren Ferell has talked to me (00:35:06) about this and he he writes about in his (00:35:08) book that you know we as men I (00:35:09) experienced it um in when my son was (00:35:12) born there's a you get (00:35:14) rewired um and you you do become more (00:35:19) nurturing you be you you change what you (00:35:21) are when you become a dad but the way (00:35:24) that dads are nurturing which is playful (00:35:27) tactile stimulation (00:35:32) bup (00:35:35) what with these single mothers by choice (00:35:38) women who go out to a sperm bank and you (00:35:40) know say I can't find a man this is like (00:35:42) a phenomenon I can't there's plenty of (00:35:44) men around I can't find a man to love (00:35:48) who 65 and makes 150k and has a PHD (00:35:51) because I have my master right so I'm (00:35:53) going to go to a sperm bank now they go (00:35:54) to a sperm bank they have a baby on (00:35:56) their own these babies (00:35:58) can attach to the mothers but there's no (00:36:01) one to help with the separation because (00:36:02) fathers were always the the vehicle of (00:36:06) Separation we mothers were the (00:36:08) attachment object love object fathers (00:36:11) were the separation love object so (00:36:13) without fathers around babies sleep in (00:36:15) their mother's beds for a very long time (00:36:19) they don't learn to separate in the same (00:36:21) way they don't have a model and learn (00:36:23) how to be masculine from a masculine (00:36:26) role model uh they don't learn to (00:36:28) regulate their aggression um and so this (00:36:32) is a problem but obviously the biggest (00:36:35) problem is that you know you have little (00:36:39) boys out there not learning to be boys (00:36:43) and not learning to be men well you (00:36:45) don't find any any role models in the (00:36:47) school so you're you you know this is (00:36:49) the this is the this is the sort of (00:36:51) terrifying feedback loop of leading the (00:36:54) world in fatherlessness right it's like (00:36:56) so you have fatherlessness creates this (00:36:59) um imbalanced psychologically fragile (00:37:04) broken situation that then repeats (00:37:06) itself because now you're a worse mate (00:37:09) so you're getting shunted off into incel (00:37:12) territory that's right because if you're (00:37:15) again incel territory is (00:37:19) limbo it's (00:37:21) Purgatory it's neither here nor there (00:37:24) that's really what it is you're not a (00:37:27) girl but you don't feel like a boy I (00:37:30) mean people that listen to this are (00:37:32) going to get upset with that but that is (00:37:34) the truth because we're not allowing (00:37:37) boys to be boys not awful boys not toxic (00:37:42) masculinity masculinity just protective (00:37:45) aggressive taking (00:37:47) initiative um allowing boys to be (00:37:50) masculine and not punishing them for it (00:37:52) so they're feeling they can't go there (00:37:55) but they're not really girls so they're (00:37:58) stuck in their rooms in (00:38:00) purgatory you have boys and this is your (00:38:03) work one of the things that I found (00:38:05) myself with my son and he's doing pretty (00:38:08) well he's got a girlfriend he's at (00:38:10) school um it's his freshman year so he's (00:38:12) struggling a little bit but that's okay (00:38:14) um I found myself in a very weird spot (00:38:16) as a father and and which (00:38:19) was he had girls he liked who liked him (00:38:23) MH (00:38:25) and I found myself saying well you have (00:38:28) to make the first move you want you know (00:38:30) you're going to be in the friend zone (00:38:31) and I'm saying these things that are (00:38:32) like probably just like now they're like (00:38:35) cringe dad sayings from a former time (00:38:38) the friend zone but the response I would (00:38:43) get from him is you don't understand (00:38:45) like I don't I can't just do that I (00:38:47) can't just make the move and I'm asking (00:38:50) myself am I encouraging my son to do (00:38:52) things that will get him in (00:38:53) trouble like make the first move like (00:38:59) you know you're having a great time and (00:39:00) you're with a girl you you there's (00:39:01) something where you will know you you (00:39:03) can grab her and kiss her like like (00:39:05) you're at the movies and you you make (00:39:07) moves and there's (00:39:10) this (00:39:12) reticence that I don't know as a (00:39:16) father how to guide in our times how to (00:39:20) give good advice that's going to work (00:39:23) that's going to be helpful and that (00:39:26) isn't setting them up to be p perceived (00:39:28) as excessively aggressive and I I it was (00:39:31) really very difficult you know how do (00:39:33) you what's your advice for that because (00:39:35) I gotta imagine you're encountering this (00:39:37) even with your own with with your sons (00:39:39) you have to have good radar as a boy (00:39:42) that you stay away from paranoid (00:39:43) persecuted girls there's a lot of girls (00:39:46) out there who are not mentally well (00:39:49) there's a lot of boys now who are not (00:39:50) mentally well I mean that's what I run (00:39:52) around the world talking about how we're (00:39:54) dealing with a mental illness crisis in (00:39:56) adolescence right (00:39:58) children but um you have to have a good (00:40:02) sense and where do you learn that sense (00:40:04) by having healthy parents who love each (00:40:06) other who have a deeply connected (00:40:10) relationship with you and who you model (00:40:13) after that's really where you learn it (00:40:16) uh so our kids aren't learning it right (00:40:19) but the idea is that you have to have a (00:40:22) good radar for when girls are not well (00:40:26) when they might be parent paranoid (00:40:28) persecuted versus a girl who's balanced (00:40:31) and healthy and um is not afraid of both (00:40:37) her masculine and feminine Parts but is (00:40:39) not afraid of her feminine Parts I'm (00:40:40) going to say that um so you have to you (00:40:44) have to if you want to teach your son (00:40:46) something it's choose emotionally (00:40:49) healthy girls so if I am watching this (00:40:54) and I don't have good Role Models but I (00:40:57) know that I want to improve myself and I (00:40:59) found this show and I'm like I'm going (00:41:00) to listen to this and let me see if I (00:41:01) can get what how do I start to help (00:41:07) myself develop that skill when I haven't (00:41:10) when it hasn't been modeled by my (00:41:11) parents and I don't have good Role (00:41:13) Models out there in the on the (00:41:15) screens so our society is so extreme in (00:41:19) the conversation so to to tell your son (00:41:22) or for yourself to listen to this and (00:41:24) say I'm going to make the first move now (00:41:27) making the first move might be asking a (00:41:30) woman out to dinner or kissing her which (00:41:34) is (00:41:36) not and is (00:41:37) not um forcing yourself on her so you (00:41:40) know we we we don't understand Nuance (00:41:43) anymore there's no nuance and I think (00:41:45) that's part of it you know is that you (00:41:47) know a girl can say you know oh he red (00:41:51) me when he tried to kiss her and hug her (00:41:56) and it's possible but that has to be a (00:41:58) very unhealthy girl so again I go back (00:42:01) to the idea you have to be able (00:42:03) to determine who is healthy and who (00:42:06) isn't healthy and you do that by not (00:42:09) partaking of the hookup culture so one (00:42:12) thing that's happened to society to genz (00:42:15) and also everyone that's followed is the (00:42:17) hook hookup culture and now it's not to (00:42:21) say in the 80s we didn't have some form (00:42:23) of the hookup culture right I mean it's (00:42:25) not that people weren't sleeping around (00:42:27) it was crisis it was heterosexual it was (00:42:29) gay it was everything right but um but (00:42:33) it's gotten much worse (00:42:35) because there's no relationship at all (00:42:39) so you know in the 80s situationships (00:42:41) there's situationships now where there's (00:42:43) sex but there isn't like we're actually (00:42:46) in a relationship it's like well there's (00:42:48) like there's a m like there's some (00:42:50) tinder's headline uh uh you know is meet (00:42:53) the love of your (00:42:54) night so great yeah so basically it it's (00:42:59) it's a culture that diminishes again (00:43:02) relationships so the way you don't get (00:43:06) accused of rap by a woman is you get to (00:43:10) know the woman you make sure the woman (00:43:12) is healthy you go out to dinner with her (00:43:15) you befriend her you make sure she's (00:43:19) mentally healthy before you make (00:43:21) advances right and so maybe you have to (00:43:24) do that even more now than ever before (00:43:29) but that's not the culture the culture (00:43:31) is um just hookups and they don't it's (00:43:35) interesting because they called dating (00:43:37) what we used to call (00:43:39) dating was just going out to dinner with (00:43:42) someone and getting to know them and see (00:43:43) if you wanted to kiss them right that's (00:43:46) not what the young people do they find (00:43:48) each other on Tinder they go out and (00:43:50) they sleep together and it's there's no (00:43:53) relationship building um and so it (00:43:56) encourages (00:43:59) mistakes it (00:44:00) encourages um uh (00:44:04) accidental uh experiences that are (00:44:07) really negative you have to know (00:44:10) somebody to determine whether they're (00:44:11) healthy enough to sleep with or whether (00:44:13) you like them enough to sleep with them (00:44:15) so the hookup culture is part of is an (00:44:18) extension of this disconnection in (00:44:21) society and and the kids are suffering (00:44:23) from it because they're more likely to (00:44:26) make mistakes and be accused of things (00:44:29) if they don't know the person they're (00:44:31) sleeping with one of the things (00:44:34) that seems like it's harder is so you (00:44:38) you've you're saying something that is (00:44:39) makes some assumptions which is healthy (00:44:42) so what's that mean like you know paint (00:44:45) a picture I know it's not there's not (00:44:47) one there's billions but what are some (00:44:50) markers of a healthy psychology of a (00:44:54) healthy personality that that so I you (00:44:57) know or maybe might be easier to say (00:44:59) what are some warning signs that it's (00:45:00) not healthy but give me some give me and (00:45:03) the viewer some some tangible like (00:45:07) traits or behaviors or things that I (00:45:09) should be looking (00:45:10) for and not (00:45:12) ignoring you know because sometimes we (00:45:14) see these things and we kind of know (00:45:16) it's wrong but we ignore it because we (00:45:17) like them and then turns out like wow I (00:45:20) should have listened to my gut but some (00:45:22) our guts have gotten a little out of (00:45:24) whack so help help me out help so (00:45:27) adolescence prefrontal cortex is not (00:45:29) developed till they're 25 that's the (00:45:31) part of their brain that we call the (00:45:32) emotional regulation part of their brain (00:45:34) so all adolescence are a little wacky in (00:45:37) terms of their judgment and their (00:45:39) executive functioning and all kinds of (00:45:41) things uh their impulsivity you know (00:45:43) this is part of being an adolescent and (00:45:45) a young adult but healthy basically if I (00:45:49) were to be reductionistic it means being (00:45:52) emotionally balanced being able to (00:45:55) regulate your emotions (00:45:57) so you know if you are a boy and you you (00:46:01) know take a girl out and you make the (00:46:04) advance and you kiss her and then she (00:46:07) flips out and she gets enraged at you (00:46:09) and she screams at you and she says you (00:46:11) know who are you to kiss me and and and (00:46:14) you just harassed you know right Houston (00:46:17) we have a problem because this is (00:46:18) someone who is not emotionally regulated (00:46:22) right maybe an emotionally regulated (00:46:24) girl would say ah I don't really want (00:46:26) that I'm not a attracted to you in that (00:46:28) way I'd prefer just to be friends right (00:46:31) so you can see someone that goes from 0 (00:46:33) to 60 in 3 seconds they either have a (00:46:35) borderline personality they have a (00:46:37) narcissistic (00:46:38) personality um maybe they're highly (00:46:40) anxious but you know emotional balance (00:46:43) that's what I would say the ability to (00:46:44) regulate one's (00:46:46) emotions that turn on a dime behavior is (00:46:49) a really good indicator that's a great (00:46:52) shorthand because it does you can think (00:46:54) about the people in your life who are (00:46:56) quick to quick to whatever quick to (00:46:58) anger quick to cry quick to quick to (00:47:00) impulsivity so also look for impulsivity (00:47:03) so you know young people are attracted (00:47:06) to impulsivity but the problem is that (00:47:08) impulsivity is often a sign particularly (00:47:10) extreme impulsivity is a sign that (00:47:12) someone is (00:47:15) imbalanced this this concept of our like (00:47:20) our cortex formation and development (00:47:23) going till 25 well and boys it's longer (00:47:27) well here's girls it's 25 I think boys (00:47:29) it's more like 27 or 28 that's (00:47:31) interesting the boys develop later yeah (00:47:33) here's what I don't (00:47:35) understand I remember there was an NPR (00:47:38) story about this is going way a little (00:47:40) ways back that the about the average age (00:47:43) on an aircraft carrier that was 19 years (00:47:47) old you know human beings Homo sapiens (00:47:51) have been on this planet for hundreds of (00:47:52) thousands of years roughly in our (00:47:54) current biological form (00:47:56) MH and and the notion that we weren't (00:48:00) really adults until 25 I don't think (00:48:02) that was around in like 1400 I think you (00:48:05) were 14 and you were you were having to (00:48:08) do a lot of tough stuff you had to (00:48:10) figure it out you don't have to go back (00:48:12) that far to look at a (00:48:14) 16-year-old or the 18-year-olds going (00:48:16) off to fight in Normandy can I interrupt (00:48:19) you for just a second please the reason (00:48:22) they took advantage of those young (00:48:24) people is because they are impulsive (00:48:26) because they weren't grown up you know (00:48:30) you got an 18-year-old and you said I'm (00:48:32) going to give you a gun and you're going (00:48:33) to go fight the bad guy and they're like (00:48:35) yeah you keep that to a 27y old they're (00:48:37) like I don't want to go to war I'm going (00:48:39) to (00:48:41) Canada you're right that's true it was (00:48:43) taking advantage of I mean there's also (00:48:46) in an evolutionary way there's a reason (00:48:49) why there are certain characteristics (00:48:52) associated with adolescence that were (00:48:54) beneficial to (00:48:56) society um they were the greatest (00:48:58) warriors they were the most Fearless (00:49:00) they were the most because you become (00:49:02) more fearful and more cautious and you (00:49:04) develop things like judgment um which (00:49:07) makes you less (00:49:09) courageous uh less (00:49:11) Fearless um you know more fearful all of (00:49:14) those things so you know who would sit (00:49:17) by the campfire and protect the camp in (00:49:18) the middle of the night it would be the (00:49:21) the 15 to 25 year olds you know who are (00:49:25) there with their Spears going yeah I got (00:49:27) this I hope someone attracts yeah so you (00:49:31) know it had a use okay that's helpful (00:49:33) and so sending those young guys to war (00:49:36) was not (00:49:38) unintentional right right yeah so (00:49:41) disposable we were disposable we're (00:49:43) excited right we're ready to climb the (00:49:45) wall we're ready to like go through the (00:49:46) trench but you could also say that you (00:49:48) know this whole controversy about men (00:49:52) and combat and whatever you know um I (00:49:56) would say that (00:49:57) masculinity had a very positive use (00:50:00) which is it was very good for hunting it (00:50:04) was very good for protection uh it has a (00:50:07) lot of good uses and thrown the baby no (00:50:12) no we've thrown the baby out with the (00:50:15) bath water I hate to use that expression (00:50:16) because of the work that I do but we (00:50:18) have thrown the baby out with the (00:50:19) bathwater in throwing masculinity out (00:50:22) which serves such an important function (00:50:24) in society and trying to place it with (00:50:28) femininity right because it has a very (00:50:31) positive use in society so I come to (00:50:34) you and I want (00:50:38) to fix myself get get regulated get into (00:50:43) a place where I have the self-confidence (00:50:45) to make the move to take take risks (00:50:49) having grown up without a dad and with a (00:50:53) lot of smothering and a lot of um (00:50:55) helicoptering or just neglect (00:50:58) um is there a protocol or you know you (00:51:02) talked about going back to the past but (00:51:03) for the individual are there things that (00:51:06) are the sort of sequencing to help (00:51:09) rebuild those skills when they haven't (00:51:12) been (00:51:14) developed I mean you're talking to a (00:51:16) therapist so of course I'm going to say (00:51:18) therapy is the way um you know I think (00:51:21) for men I think individual therapy is (00:51:24) really important if we're talking about (00:51:25) for men let's talk about for own men I (00:51:28) also think groups really are good for (00:51:31) men um I don't like groups for everyone (00:51:34) I don't think everybody should be in a (00:51:35) group but I I've seen groups work very (00:51:39) well for men because um you know it they (00:51:44) together they can break down the (00:51:47) barriers of being able to be vulnerable (00:51:50) with one another and share an experience (00:51:52) and not feel judged and so yeah men's (00:51:56) groups are really I think important for (00:51:59) men um but individual therapy I also (00:52:03) think with children and adolescent (00:52:06) boys there aren't enough uh male child (00:52:10) therapists this is actually a real (00:52:13) problem there aren't enough therapists (00:52:15) in general in this country there are 30 (00:52:17) people in need of therapy to one (00:52:20) therapist that's the ratio right now (00:52:22) there's only one therapist available to (00:52:24) every 30 people who wants therapy (00:52:27) so that statistic is pretty ridiculous (00:52:31) but there are not enough male Child and (00:52:35) Adolescent therapists and we need them (00:52:38) dramatically I mean I Mentor as many (00:52:40) young men to go into my field as (00:52:43) possible because little boys who don't (00:52:46) have male role models even if their (00:52:48) fathers are working really hard or not (00:52:51) really great role models um maybe (00:52:54) they're in the family but so they're (00:52:56) physically there but not emotionally (00:52:57) there right um so little boys need men (00:53:00) and then adolescent boys need men they (00:53:02) need male therapists not female (00:53:04) therapists and so it's it's it's really (00:53:07) tough to find uh if if anyone who's (00:53:11) listening to this if you want to go into (00:53:12) the mental health field male child CH (00:53:16) play therapist for little boys um and (00:53:20) Adolescent therapists who are male (00:53:22) therapists is really we don't have (00:53:24) enough of them so now there is this you (00:53:27) you are pointing to a thing that can can (00:53:29) be read in two different (00:53:31) ways the rise of mental health disorders (00:53:34) in this country and the rise of (00:53:37) therapy one and and these these can go (00:53:40) into two different currents and you (00:53:42) you'll pick up where I'm going pretty (00:53:43) quickly obviously one is rising need (00:53:47) service providers come (00:53:49) in it's (00:53:51) possible that there's a causal Factor (00:53:54) too much talking about our feelings too (00:53:56) much Focus on the (00:53:58) negative bad bad reinforcing feedback (00:54:00) loop this is I think the thesis of um (00:54:02) Abigail shri's book bad therapy that (00:54:05) that you people are to blame for this no (00:54:07) actually I'm going to correct that and (00:54:09) say I mean I've heard her speak a little (00:54:11) bit I don't agree with everything she (00:54:12) says but there are a lot of bad (00:54:15) therapists I don't want to say all (00:54:17) therapy is good therapy you say all (00:54:20) doctors aren't good all lawyers aren't (00:54:22) good all podcasters aren't good um you (00:54:25) know uh there are lot of bad therapists (00:54:27) who aren't well trained who are probably (00:54:30) making people more ill than they are (00:54:31) making people better you know I can tell (00:54:34) you right now that if you're going to go (00:54:35) into therapy you know you need to know (00:54:39) who you're going into therapy with you (00:54:41) need to ask in the first session what is (00:54:43) your training what is your education and (00:54:46) you need to do a little you need to be a (00:54:47) consumer John you need to know what (00:54:50) questions to ask well this is really (00:54:53) important because there's a couple so um (00:54:56) another (00:54:57) friend and guest of the show who's here (00:54:59) in New York you might know I'm Dr Camilo (00:55:00) Ortiz he has a an organization he's (00:55:03) building the open Therapy Institute and (00:55:06) um he's a cognitive behavioral guy um (00:55:10) we've talked a lot about this that one (00:55:11) of the problems is now you have this (00:55:15) massive need and you have an industry of (00:55:17) which you are I think you're you're (00:55:19) exceptional in this way as I think he is (00:55:22) who've embraced this woke victimhood (00:55:24) stuff and who've said who that there's a (00:55:26) lot of the I go to therapy and I (00:55:29) actually get judged if if I've heard (00:55:32) stories of of people whove said I've (00:55:34) gone into therapy and had the therapist (00:55:38) they correct me for not using the right (00:55:40) pronouns and this kind of this kind of (00:55:42) stuff and it does seem like the (00:55:44) humanities the social science social (00:55:47) sciences are dominated by this ideology (00:55:50) in in higher (00:55:52) ed I don't want to straw man this but I (00:55:55) I think this is these this is true true (00:55:57) it's a very far-left (00:55:59) landscape so how do I and and when I say (00:56:02) far-left I'm talking most about the (00:56:05) victimhood cult mentality the oppressor (00:56:08) oppressed dynamic as a (00:56:11) philosophy that seems antithetical to (00:56:14) healthy therapy and it seems like it's (00:56:16) dominating the industry Jordan Peterson (00:56:18) certainly talks about it in that way but (00:56:19) maybe he's being bombastic how do you (00:56:21) think about what's happening in your (00:56:23) field at the educational level and then (00:56:24) spilling out into the practitioners to (00:56:27) understand the mental health field is a (00:56:29) very broad field it's not one field it's (00:56:32) like saying Africa is a country it's a (00:56:34) continent right so there are many (00:56:37) different orientations and many (00:56:39) different aspects of the mental health (00:56:41) field so uh we it's spent a whole (00:56:43) session talking about that what are the (00:56:45) different categories and why do you go (00:56:47) to one versus another um but there are (00:56:51) very different reasons why you would go (00:56:53) to a CBT therapist than going to a (00:56:55) psychodynamically or a (00:56:56) psychoanalytically oriented therapist (00:56:58) like myself psychoanalysts are not into (00:57:03) they they tend to be more liberal um but (00:57:06) they're not into victim blaming because (00:57:08) psychoanalysis is is the uh indepth (00:57:13) study of a person um in terms of their (00:57:17) own responsibility as well as what has (00:57:20) happened to them but you'd say their (00:57:22) internal experience and their own (00:57:24) responsibility for their well-being so (00:57:27) it is not a victimizing so you're (00:57:29) talking about counseling and there's a (00:57:33) lot of people that are going around (00:57:34) calling themselves therapists who are (00:57:36) not well- (00:57:37) trained um and that is the problem so if (00:57:40) I'm going to interpret what that woman's (00:57:42) book is saying is that therapy can hurt (00:57:46) you if again you go to a Bad Doctor a (00:57:49) doctor can hurt you too right um You (00:57:53) have to know what to look for what to (00:57:55) ask for and if you hear something in (00:57:58) that consultation because you should (00:58:00) always have a consultation before you (00:58:01) commit to a therapist that you don't (00:58:03) like out you go do you have advice for (00:58:07) the for someone who's seeking um therapy (00:58:10) to to help like a rubric for trying to (00:58:13) evaluate that that makes sense because (00:58:15) looking at their credentials most of us (00:58:17) are going to be like I don't know you (00:58:18) went to University of Rhode Island I (00:58:19) don't know if that's any good or like (00:58:21) how would I how would I navigate that (00:58:23) world without having to become an expert (00:58:25) in the field myself so CBT therapy we'll (00:58:28) do a quick just mini course CBT therapy (00:58:31) I'm not a CBT therapist CBT therapists (00:58:35) um it was initially created for (00:58:38) obsessive disorders OCD smoking (00:58:41) sensation um symptom relief so it was (00:58:44) the behavioral equivalent of medication (00:58:48) but instead of medication you got a (00:58:49) little bit of talk therapy not so much (00:58:52) but not so deep they got a background (00:58:54) and then they helped you to deal with (00:58:55) your symptoms there was exposure right (00:58:57) yeah so it's basically symptom relief (00:58:59) now there's good use for that if you (00:59:01) have OCD symptoms if you're so highly (00:59:05) anxious that you can't even be in an (00:59:07) analytic process with someone like me (00:59:09) then going to a CBT therapist they give (00:59:12) you some tools right and so that might (00:59:15) be good but a lot of psychodynamic (00:59:17) people like me also do some behavioral (00:59:19) techniques with people who are highly (00:59:20) anxious the difference is that people (00:59:22) who are psychodynamically or (00:59:24) psychoanalytically trained is that (00:59:27) they're trained to understand not only (00:59:30) the present but also how the (00:59:33) past has influenced the present meaning (00:59:36) the the deeper motivations and (00:59:39) underlying causes for your illness (00:59:42) because if you just keep cutting the (00:59:43) grass the grass grows back you have to (00:59:47) get the roots you have to get to the (00:59:49) roots of the grass so psychodynamic (00:59:52) Psychotherapy is takes a little longer (00:59:55) it's not just about symptom relief the (00:59:58) symptom relief comes as the result of (01:00:01) understanding why you're feeling what (01:00:02) you're feeling um and so yeah it's a (01:00:06) deeper process so asking someone you (01:00:09) know are you a CBT therapist are you (01:00:11) more psychoanalytically trained or (01:00:14) psychodynamically trained it's kind of (01:00:16) the same interchangeable way of saying (01:00:18) it um and then there's other (01:00:20) orientations too but those are the two (01:00:23) biggies right psychiatrists generally (01:00:26) today uh aren't very well trained in (01:00:29) talk therapy they do medication and (01:00:31) that's symptom relief um 50 or 75 years (01:00:35) ago psychiatrists were a lot of them (01:00:37) were psychoanalysts most of them were (01:00:39) meaning they were also trained to do (01:00:41) talk therapy today they are not so I've (01:00:44) got these disorders okay here's the pill (01:00:46) that will help you with those disorders (01:00:48) right and what they should say to you is (01:00:50) I'll medicate you but you need to see a (01:00:51) therapist who you can do talk therapy (01:00:54) with right if it's an OCD situation (01:00:56) maybe I'll refer you to a CBT therapist (01:00:59) but if it's a characterological issue (01:01:01) meaning you have trouble with attachment (01:01:04) issues or you you're having trouble (01:01:07) being you know feeling happy in (01:01:09) relationships and work and finding (01:01:11) meaningful work and you know you suffer (01:01:13) from trauma that you've never gotten (01:01:14) over then you go to see someone like me (01:01:17) right yeah I (01:01:19) um I haven't talked very much about this (01:01:22) in the show for reasons that'll be (01:01:23) obvious I'm going to bring it up a (01:01:24) little bit for for context my wife and I (01:01:26) are in the process of um we're pretty (01:01:28) far down the road actually on an (01:01:30) adoption M and it's uh a person who's in (01:01:35) another country who has had a traumatic (01:01:38) life and adoption is fundamentally (01:01:40) traumatic because it's separation like (01:01:42) everything about it so I've had to over (01:01:45) the course of the past nine (01:01:47) months participate in something north of (01:01:50) 30 hours of trauma training and and um (01:01:55) it's been very interesting interesting (01:01:56) it's been very eye opening but there has (01:01:58) been a part of me that's (01:02:02) like how much of (01:02:05) this is too much trauma talk too much (01:02:10) like and maybe this is just me being a (01:02:12) guy and being like you know what (01:02:14) sometimes you just life's hard and and (01:02:16) then you move forward you don't keep (01:02:18) dwelling on the things that were painful (01:02:20) you kind of they are what they are and (01:02:21) you move (01:02:22) forward have there is a the use of the (01:02:25) word (01:02:26) trauma in our society has become so (01:02:30) diffuse and so (01:02:33) overused that navigating when it's (01:02:35) appropriate is impossible now let's talk (01:02:39) about Big T trauma versus little tea (01:02:41) trauma Big T trauma and I don't know and (01:02:44) I don't obviously want to pry or be (01:02:46) intrusive but Big T trauma is physical (01:02:50) AB um you know severe neglect that's Big (01:02:54) T trauma you know getting in a car (01:02:56) accident and being crippled or being (01:02:59) born with a serious health you know uh (01:03:03) limitation or that that would be big tea (01:03:06) trauma coming back from Vietnam or Iraq (01:03:09) PTSD right big tea trauma rap right (01:03:12) having seen your parents murdered I mean (01:03:14) these are Big tea traumas right little (01:03:17) tea trauma affects more people than big (01:03:19) tea trauma so trauma is not the word (01:03:22) trauma means that you have experienced (01:03:27) something that is painful deeply painful (01:03:32) relationally painful organically painful (01:03:36) um you mean like like like leaving (01:03:39) wounds when you say organically painful (01:03:40) how do you that might be Big T trauma (01:03:43) but most people don't suffer from Big te (01:03:45) trauma a lot of people do but most (01:03:47) people not most people who go to therapy (01:03:49) suffer from Little te trauma meaning (01:03:51) we've lost the Nuance in society to (01:03:54) understand that having a mentally ill (01:03:58) parent having a narcissistic parent (01:04:01) having a parent who has borderline (01:04:03) personality what we talked about earlier (01:04:05) in the show going up and down in terms (01:04:07) of their emotions having a mother who (01:04:10) screams or a father who loses his temper (01:04:13) and then the next minute is fine um (01:04:16) having an alcoholic parent that's (01:04:18) secretive that no one sees except is in (01:04:20) the family or you know all of these (01:04:23) things are what I call littl te trauma (01:04:26) meaning um you know them in your heart (01:04:29) and you live with them in a very (01:04:30) secretive way but they're not the scars (01:04:33) are not scars that people see on the (01:04:35) outside so interestingly it's sometimes (01:04:38) EAS easier is not quite the right word (01:04:41) but Society steps up for big tea trauma (01:04:45) but for little tea trauma there's very (01:04:47) little understanding of how it impacts a (01:04:49) person right so what I talk about with (01:04:53) attachment security is not big T TR for (01:04:56) the most part we're not talking about (01:04:57) Romanian orphans uh Charles Nelson's (01:05:00) book Romanian orphans we're talking (01:05:03) about we're talking about children who (01:05:05) are deeply emotionally neglected but (01:05:07) have a roof over their head and food to (01:05:09) eat but develop narcissistic personality (01:05:13) disorders and eating disorders and (01:05:15) alcoholism and (01:05:16) drug because they have suffered litty (01:05:20) traumas so the question is not is (01:05:24) therapy necessary and is therapy causing (01:05:26) this but what has happened in society (01:05:29) that has changed that is causing more (01:05:32) people to need therapy so I'm going to (01:05:33) disagree with This Woman's book I do (01:05:35) believe that there's a lot of bad (01:05:37) therapy but I don't believe that therapy (01:05:40) is causing the Mental Health crisis I do (01:05:42) believe that diagnosing people is not a (01:05:45) good so psychoanalysts don't do a lot of (01:05:47) diagnosing oh you have all you have this (01:05:49) and that disorder and you're on this (01:05:51) spectrum and that spectrum and all that (01:05:53) St we take the DSM which is the book (01:05:55) that has the diag ostic codes and we're (01:05:57) very light on it if only put it on (01:05:59) insurance forms just so our patients can (01:06:01) get reimbursed we don't Focus we're not (01:06:03) like psych procedure based billing you (01:06:07) distort our healthare system in profound (01:06:09) ways I put the mildest diagnosis because (01:06:11) it's doesn't matter to me it's a person (01:06:14) and it's a person who suffered loss or (01:06:17) suffered little tea trauma or big tea (01:06:19) trauma um or or a person who's having (01:06:23) trouble adjusting to this wacky Society (01:06:25) we live in so Society has changed it's (01:06:29) become a much more complicated place to (01:06:32) grow up in and to live in question so I (01:06:35) would say that so you want to say that (01:06:38) people are more screwed up because of (01:06:40) therapy no people are more screwed up (01:06:43) because Society is more screwed up and (01:06:45) so more people need help um so what do (01:06:49) we do we have to fix Society you know (01:06:52) one of the things that I have found (01:06:54) myself becoming over time (01:06:57) is functionally more conservative and (01:06:59) here's what I mean by that I'm going to (01:07:00) give a definition um it's a pretty (01:07:03) simple definition it's like oh more or (01:07:05) less the wisdom of your great (01:07:07) grandparents was mostly (01:07:09) right you know so you could say (01:07:12) traditional I'm Catholic I'm becoming (01:07:14) more Catholic I'm participating more but (01:07:17) it's like oh you know what this 2,000 (01:07:18) year old tradition actually grappled (01:07:21) with a lot of humanity for a long time (01:07:23) pretty rigorously and I should probably (01:07:26) not Chuck it out the window but pay (01:07:28) close attention to it and I don't know (01:07:31) how much of that is just aging I think (01:07:33) some of it's literally just I'm getting (01:07:35) older um but some of it is I can feel is (01:07:39) a response to a world that is constantly (01:07:43) lying about reality to me and to (01:07:46) everyone around me and to my kids my (01:07:48) kids maybe soon to be kids and and um (01:07:52) and I think the question I have for you (01:07:53) is when you say that you say we've got a (01:07:56) crazy Society compared to what what's (01:07:59) the not crazy Society so what we did is (01:08:02) we deconstructed we're in the process of (01:08:05) deconstructing society all the (01:08:07) institutions all the structure so (01:08:11) Society needs structure we need (01:08:16) structure in institutions like family (01:08:19) like Faith Like (01:08:22) gender um you know we needy yeah we need (01:08:26) we need some structure it could be that (01:08:29) the structure we had was too rigid and (01:08:32) that's possible because we have to grow (01:08:35) and we have to be flexible but what's (01:08:38) happened is it's like deboning a fish (01:08:40) all the bones were taken out of the fish (01:08:43) and so and that's a problem for society (01:08:46) because all the institutions that held (01:08:49) Society the glue that held Society (01:08:51) together that made people feel safe (01:08:53) people feel safe in in in in (01:08:56) institutions they feel safe in family (01:08:58) they feel to a certain extent unless (01:09:00) you've been in a faith based culture you (01:09:04) know it's possible you even mean you can (01:09:05) have trauma in a faith-based culture so (01:09:08) you know I have people come to me and (01:09:09) say I can't believe you say the faith is (01:09:11) good I had a terrible experience you (01:09:13) know growing up I was I said that's (01:09:16) terrible I feel for you and I feel even (01:09:19) more for you because Faith could have (01:09:20) been something so supportive and it was (01:09:23) turned into something so devastating and (01:09:26) destructive right but we know that (01:09:29) that's the minority not the majority (01:09:31) that the majority of people and the (01:09:33) research shows this that um children who (01:09:36) are raised in in a faith-based family uh (01:09:39) it was a Harvard study done do better in (01:09:42) terms of their long-term mental health (01:09:44) if they're raised with some faith if (01:09:46) they attend some religious services and (01:09:48) their parents raise them with some Faith (01:09:51) um and that's because it's some (01:09:53) structure it's some you know the idea in (01:09:56) my field we talk about ethnocultural (01:09:59) identity you know you're we're trying to (01:10:02) eliminate all identity that was part of (01:10:06) structure right religion gender um (01:10:11) ethnicity we're trying to make everybody (01:10:14) sort of like like vanilla ice cream like (01:10:17) everybody is fungible and generic and (01:10:19) every weird right because we've got that (01:10:23) and then also hyper vigilance around (01:10:27) really really Skin Deep literally (01:10:30) identity at the same time so we've got a (01:10:33) kind of like (01:10:36) behavior is sand blasted into a into (01:10:39) like a a a flat plain synthetic weirdo (01:10:43) land so you can do whatever you want but (01:10:46) what you are that I can s see from (01:10:49) across the room oh man that's real (01:10:51) important that's the only thing we (01:10:52) should be talking about is what I can (01:10:54) tell without before you open your mouth (01:10:55) MH so that Dynamic (01:10:58) is very weird well that's when identity (01:11:02) becomes calcified and then you have (01:11:03) xenophobia and and that's sort of what's (01:11:06) Happening too I mean but I think to get (01:11:09) back to the idea of structure because (01:11:11) that's the most important piece of this (01:11:13) is that (01:11:15) institutions help people to feel safe in (01:11:18) society and we've removed all those (01:11:21) institutions right again gender was an (01:11:24) institution what thatan when you say (01:11:26) institution just how do you structure (01:11:29) structure that there is structure so (01:11:30) stable structure over time stable (01:11:32) structure that makes people feel that (01:11:35) they belong (01:11:38) somewhere (01:11:40) um you have been doing work around (01:11:45) narcissism and one of the things that (01:11:47) seems to have risen dramatically (01:11:49) measurably is you're becoming a more (01:11:52) narcissistic Society I know there's this (01:11:54) um what is it called called the (01:11:55) narcissism index I actually just took (01:11:58) this recently and I found my score went (01:12:00) up a little bit from the last time I (01:12:01) took it so I was like oh I don't I don't (01:12:04) know if I like that um uh you'd say went (01:12:08) down not up yeah anyway yes yeah this (01:12:12) curve you want to be up here but once (01:12:14) you start to get down to the slippy (01:12:15) slope I don't know about that part (01:12:18) um help me understand how you how you (01:12:22) perceive what's going on with narcissism (01:12:25) uh we talked about it last time but it's (01:12:26) worth revisiting what what it really is (01:12:29) and what drives it well we talked about (01:12:32) feminism and how that affected Society I (01:12:34) would say the two biggest movements that (01:12:36) really deconstructed Society were (01:12:39) feminism and the me movement the me (01:12:42) movement of the 60s was um was basically (01:12:47) a movement that said I matter more than (01:12:50) anybody (01:12:52) else now bad therapy by the way (01:12:56) can promote that so that's what I mean (01:12:58) by there's good therapy and bad therapy (01:13:00) good thy is relational bad therapy is (01:13:05) what you want and you need and nobody (01:13:07) else matters but you you you you you me (01:13:10) me me me me me me right that's bad (01:13:13) therapy right the idea is that that me (01:13:17) movement told to people that (01:13:19) individualism that (01:13:21) freedom to be you freedom to be me was (01:13:25) the most important thing and that (01:13:28) responsibility for relationships for (01:13:32) family um they no longer mattered (01:13:35) because What mattered was you no one (01:13:37) else and what we know from development (01:13:40) is that narcissism is a phase of (01:13:42) development that all children go through (01:13:44) children are born with with a feeling of (01:13:46) omnipotence they have a feeling that (01:13:48) they are the center of the universe and (01:13:50) that is critical to their development if (01:13:52) children aren't tended to in the (01:13:54) beginning which is problem because when (01:13:56) we put our children in daycare hand them (01:13:58) over to other people leave them at 6 (01:14:00) weeks or three months what we're not (01:14:02) understanding is that for the first (01:14:04) eight months a baby believes that they (01:14:06) are the center of the universe and that (01:14:08) you are an extension of them so when you (01:14:12) disappear and you are no longer tending (01:14:14) to them and providing them with security (01:14:17) they don't believe that their (01:14:19) environment let them down they take it (01:14:23) on themselves and believe that there's (01:14:25) something wrong with them from the very (01:14:27) beginning it is the beginning of (01:14:30) diminishing a sense of self instead of (01:14:32) raising it up so for the first eight (01:14:34) months babies need to be basically with (01:14:38) the belief that their mothers are (01:14:39) extensions of themselves that's why (01:14:41) mothers wear them on their bodies in (01:14:43) other countries they keep them close at (01:14:45) eight months babies say right you're (01:14:48) you're separate I now see you as a (01:14:49) separate person you could get up and (01:14:52) leave me now I'm terrified from 8 to 18 (01:14:54) months they go through something called (01:14:55) separation anxiety where they recognize (01:14:58) that their mothers can leave that's also (01:15:00) a terrible time to leave them but we (01:15:03) know that this omnipotence and this (01:15:05) sense of narcissism to a certain extent (01:15:07) goes straight through adolescence (01:15:09) because adolescence is another period of (01:15:11) narcissism these are developmental (01:15:13) phases if a child is raised with (01:15:17) sensitive empathic nurturing and enough (01:15:19) of their parents physical and emotional (01:15:21) presence that child will move through (01:15:25) that period and then become more (01:15:27) empathic more connected to relationships (01:15:30) more aware of others right what's (01:15:33) happening is we are neglecting our (01:15:34) children when they're very young because (01:15:37) we're focusing on our own desires and (01:15:39) our own needs whether it's our (01:15:40) professional desires or our own personal (01:15:43) needs well I want to go on vacation for (01:15:45) a week I'm just going to leave that baby (01:15:47) well no you if you leave that baby that (01:15:50) baby's going to be little tea (01:15:52) traumatized and uh it's going to have (01:15:54) issues when you come back so this kind (01:15:58) of sense that you can do anything you (01:16:00) want and your children will be fine has (01:16:03) created a generation of children who are (01:16:06) neglected emotionally neglected because (01:16:09) parents are choosing Freedom over (01:16:12) responsibility freedom to be me over the (01:16:16) fact that that child that you brought (01:16:18) into this world did not elect to come (01:16:20) into this world that child is here (01:16:23) because you brought them into this world (01:16:24) and therefore you bear responsibility (01:16:27) for the emotional well-being of that (01:16:29) child and that child has irreducible (01:16:32) needs and so we have become a society (01:16:35) that's very selfish and that selfishness (01:16:38) is generationally being expressed we (01:16:41) have four generations of narcissistic (01:16:45) personalities so meaning they never move (01:16:48) out of that developmental phase they get (01:16:50) stuck like getting stuck in a crack in (01:16:52) the LP (01:16:53) record um and what we know is that (01:16:56) narcissism just means unhealthy defenses (01:17:00) so we have healthy narcissism and (01:17:02) unhealthy (01:17:03) narcissism yeah what's the difference (01:17:05) healthy narcissism is I'm smart I'm (01:17:10) talented I'm likable um I'm lovable (01:17:14) that's healthy narcissism unhealthy (01:17:16) narcissism are pathological defenses (01:17:19) that you have to form as a very young (01:17:22) child to cope with not being being (01:17:26) admired acknowledged understood and (01:17:29) having a parent who's present to do (01:17:31) those things and so then you develop (01:17:34) what we call uh the defense of (01:17:36) grandiosity and the defense of being (01:17:39) okay without really being okay we are (01:17:42) sending our kids off into the world (01:17:45) without the (01:17:47) internal uh substance that we need to (01:17:51) instead we're sending them out just with (01:17:54) almost an a superficial sense of (01:17:57) well-being but not the substance to back (01:17:59) it up what's the connection or (01:18:02) relationship between unhealthy excessive (01:18:05) narcissism and empathy or lack thereof (01:18:09) how do they how do they play so we're (01:18:11) not born empathic we're born just gimme (01:18:14) gimme gimme again we're born omnipotent (01:18:17) we're born with a sense of gimme gimme (01:18:19) gimme I need I need I need and healthy (01:18:22) parents understand that that baby's not (01:18:25) there to give to you you are there to (01:18:27) give to that baby and straight through (01:18:30) adolescence that child is not there to (01:18:33) give to you you are there to give to (01:18:35) that child um and so you know that (01:18:40) understanding that that child has needs (01:18:43) but does not yet have an experience of (01:18:47) thinking about or feeling for others (01:18:50) that comes through modeling if parents (01:18:54) are can self-sacrifice can sacrifice for (01:18:57) their children can put their needs aside (01:18:59) so what I say is when you have a child (01:19:01) you don't give up your narcissism your (01:19:04) Healthy narcissism you lend it to your (01:19:07) children and you get it back but you (01:19:10) model loving giving attentive (01:19:15) sacrificing behavior that that modeling (01:19:18) is then internalized by those children (01:19:21) so it is (01:19:23) environmental it is it is is not nature (01:19:26) it is nurture one of the things that um (01:19:30) I don't know how deep This research is (01:19:34) but in the boy crisis it's referenced (01:19:37) that um there has been studies that (01:19:39) children and you're even into adulthood (01:19:42) who didn't have a a father figure are (01:19:45) less empathetic than those who have (01:19:48) which is weird at first blush because (01:19:50) you think well like dad's sort of the (01:19:52) Rough and Tumble get out of the house (01:19:55) like like the notion that the masculine (01:19:57) role is important for the formation of (01:20:01) empathy um why that would be true is not (01:20:05) immediately obvious so are you familiar (01:20:07) with this and how do you and how do you (01:20:09) understand what the causal relationship (01:20:11) would be there so when you're an infant (01:20:13) empathy is based on mother's empathy (01:20:16) when you get to be a toddler and a (01:20:18) school AG child particularly if you're a (01:20:20) little boy um a lot of your identity and (01:20:24) your self-esteem is based on the (01:20:27) acknowledgment admiration and (01:20:29) recognition of your father so men who (01:20:32) have not had good relationships with (01:20:34) their fathers who have had absent (01:20:37) fathers or negligent fathers (01:20:41) or fathers um interestingly an abusive (01:20:45) father is better than a negligent father (01:20:47) yeah he cares enough to beat me right I (01:20:50) mean I'm not saying it's good but I get (01:20:52) it but those men who have not had the (01:20:57) recognition acknowledgement and (01:20:58) admiration of their (01:21:01) fathers uh have a very hard time going (01:21:04) forward being able to recognize admire (01:21:07) and feel for (01:21:10) others so it's the experience of that (01:21:14) selflessness that is that teaches us it (01:21:18) exactly I thought that it could be (01:21:20) something along the lines of that we (01:21:23) might be on average more likely as men (01:21:26) and as fathers (01:21:27) to ask questions of our (01:21:30) kids something like this your kid comes (01:21:33) home they're crying they got into some (01:21:35) kind of fight mom again on average hugs (01:21:39) oh I'm sorry honey and dad says what did (01:21:42) you do wrong and forces you to think (01:21:45) about somebody else instead of like (01:21:47) because receiving attention doesn't seem (01:21:49) like a lesson in empathy it seems like a (01:21:51) kind of experience of (01:21:53) self-centeredness actually it's (01:21:55) paradoxical Because unless you get it (01:21:57) you can't give (01:21:58) it that makes sense it's (01:22:02) um this the this role of attachment that (01:22:07) we talked about in our last conversation (01:22:08) our last episode and that you're (01:22:10) bringing up again here it's it's so um (01:22:13) challenging to the current status quo (01:22:15) you know it's certainly the thing that (01:22:17) you've said out there in the world that (01:22:18) probably gets you the most slings and (01:22:20) arrows um can it be overcome when it (01:22:24) wasn't there (01:22:25) yes how not I mean so there are always (01:22:30) scars right so can it be (01:22:33) repaired the answer is yes some things (01:22:36) cannot be repaired it depends on how (01:22:37) deep the damage is right but attachment (01:22:41) disorders are repairable but the only (01:22:44) way that they're repairable is not (01:22:45) through CBT therapy is not through drugs (01:22:48) is through an emotionally reparative (01:22:51) experience with a therapist who (01:22:55) redefines for you what a relationship (01:22:58) is if you've never known a loving (01:23:01) sensitive empathic (01:23:03) attuned acknowledging (01:23:06) admiring understanding (01:23:09) relationship then you go forth in the (01:23:12) world one without a trust of your (01:23:14) environment but two without the uh (01:23:17) belief that it exists right and so it's (01:23:23) only by having a relationship and so I (01:23:26) say to people you know be careful of (01:23:28) wishing for miracles because if you go (01:23:30) to a CBT therapist I mean they may give (01:23:32) you some tools but it's a little like (01:23:34) you know cutting the grass it might help (01:23:37) you but you you're going to have to keep (01:23:38) using those tools and it's symptom (01:23:39) relief doesn't really get to the root of (01:23:41) the problem somebody gives you a pill (01:23:43) maybe it'll help you maybe it won't but (01:23:46) it's not really getting to the (01:23:48) long-term uh sort of root of the problem (01:23:51) the root of the problem is that (01:23:53) relationally something went wrong for (01:23:55) you that has to be repaired the only way (01:23:58) you can repair relational damage is to (01:24:01) have a (01:24:03) relationship there seems to be a (01:24:08) um (01:24:10) a foundation in exper in (01:24:14) trust like trust but verify and then (01:24:17) then therefore you learn to trust it's (01:24:20) something like that right like where I (01:24:23) before when you when you meet people who (01:24:25) are very un they don't trust anyone um (01:24:29) it's it's they've been given good reason (01:24:31) not to usually and then it and then and (01:24:34) then they're stuck in that posture like (01:24:36) I'm not going to trust anybody you can (01:24:38) be obviously too trusting um is (01:24:43) there uh if you're going if you're (01:24:46) getting into a relationship with someone (01:24:47) a romantic relationship someone who's (01:24:49) got trust (01:24:50) issues are there ways to navigate that (01:24:54) to help (01:24:55) not if it's like this is someone that (01:24:57) you you know they have these trust (01:24:59) issues but you love them you want to be (01:25:01) with them and and and they're they're (01:25:03) surfacing in a bunch of different ways (01:25:04) do you have any advice for that for how (01:25:06) to deal with with being in a (01:25:07) relationship with someone who maybe (01:25:09) didn't have their parents and uh you (01:25:12) know and has this this this lack of (01:25:15) trust lack of stability at the at their (01:25:19) core trust issues Express themselves in (01:25:21) different ways um you can have trust (01:25:23) issues by (01:25:25) uh rejecting loving relationships (01:25:28) avoiding you can have trust issues by (01:25:31) clinging desperately and being (01:25:32) excessively dependent so trust issues (01:25:36) come in different forms but as I said (01:25:38) attachment disorders those trust issues (01:25:40) are treatable but you have to go into (01:25:42) the kind of therapy that really (01:25:45) understands the root of that trust issue (01:25:48) um and so that means going to a (01:25:49) psychoanalyst or a psychoanalytically (01:25:51) oriented therapist they might therapy (01:25:54) with you and not Psy analysis but you're (01:25:56) really kinding you're having to delve (01:25:58) into uh what went wrong in your (01:26:01) childhood that you know and people say I (01:26:03) don't want to talk about my childhood (01:26:04) and I say well you know I can't help you (01:26:06) then because if we can't understand you (01:26:08) know there's a saying that you can't if (01:26:11) you don't understand the past you don't (01:26:13) know who you are in the present and you (01:26:14) certainly aren't going to know who you (01:26:16) are in the future or where you're going (01:26:18) right there's this sense of (01:26:20) understanding which is like cognitive (01:26:22) it's in your mind it's working things (01:26:24) out with you right (01:26:25) thinking there's this other piece of the (01:26:27) puzzle that I'm curious about which is (01:26:29) sort of AR I think that one definition (01:26:31) of character from Aristotle is something (01:26:33) like your actions create your habits and (01:26:36) your habits create your character and (01:26:37) your character creates who you are (01:26:41) um and there's you know if you take that (01:26:43) as like a (01:26:45) truism then establishing good (01:26:48) habits even if they even if you don't (01:26:51) want to do them even if they're (01:26:52) uncomfortable seems like a really good (01:26:54) place to start this like Jordan Peterson (01:26:55) make your bed every morning (01:26:57) MH (01:26:59) um how important is that that behavioral (01:27:03) and I'm not saying cognitive behavioral (01:27:05) therapy I'm just talking about the the (01:27:06) behaviors of Life the choices you make (01:27:09) and you know that we often self-sabotage (01:27:12) and we don't do the things we know we (01:27:13) should be doing or we do the thing we (01:27:15) know we didn't want to do um what's your (01:27:18) advice for for fixing the habits that (01:27:22) that build your character over time well (01:27:24) we are our choices for sure um or at (01:27:27) least a collection of our choices but (01:27:29) remember that again trust is something (01:27:32) that is shaped and sculpted very early (01:27:35) and that's what we really don't talk (01:27:37) about that if you want to have children (01:27:40) who can have loving relationships and um (01:27:44) are resilient to the bumps and the (01:27:46) adversities of life um then you have to (01:27:50) raise them with a certain amount of (01:27:52) trust and trust is for formed in the (01:27:55) very early days with that baby being (01:27:57) able to trust that you will be there for (01:27:59) them when they are most (01:28:02) vulnerable and you know we disregard (01:28:05) that and and so trust is at the (01:28:08) Cornerstone of (01:28:10) character because yes I suppose you (01:28:13) could say you could be too trusting I (01:28:14) don't know that you can be too trusting (01:28:17) you can be so trusting that you are (01:28:20) blind to uh adversity I suppose blind to (01:28:24) warning signs maybe I would rather raise (01:28:26) a child who's too trusting than a child (01:28:28) who's not trusting enough right and but (01:28:31) again those you call them disorders of (01:28:35) trust which are basically attachment (01:28:37) disorders can be treated and that's (01:28:39) really important because it gives hope (01:28:41) to people but I would say that if you're (01:28:43) in a relationship with someone who seems (01:28:45) to have an attachment disorder either (01:28:48) because they're very clingy or they are (01:28:50) very (01:28:51) avoidant I wouldn't marry them unless (01:28:54) they get some therapy and I would make (01:28:56) sure that they're treated before you (01:28:58) commit to them and that they're (01:29:00) committed to changing because living (01:29:04) with someone who has an attachment (01:29:05) disorder for a lifetime is a very (01:29:08) painful thing for you for your children (01:29:11) one of the things that seems to happen (01:29:14) is that the (01:29:16) narcissist can get (01:29:18) into a and I've heard from folks who've (01:29:21) said oh my father was a narcissist or my (01:29:23) mother and I'm (01:29:25) the receiver of that or that there's a (01:29:27) there's a some sometimes a symbiotic (01:29:28) relationship between a narcissistic (01:29:30) person persons and um people who are I'm (01:29:34) not sure what the right word is but but (01:29:36) do you understand what I'm getting well (01:29:37) like levels of water meat is the (01:29:39) expression I always like to use that (01:29:41) narcissists are attracted to (01:29:43) narcissists because they match you know (01:29:46) we have to match with the people that (01:29:47) we're with and so what can happen is (01:29:51) narcissists get together but then one (01:29:54) starts to be unhappy with that and (01:29:57) develop and go to therapy and then you (01:29:59) have one who's still very much in that (01:30:01) narcissistic State and one who's trying (01:30:03) to move out of it and they're no longer (01:30:06) a match so people match right and so (01:30:10) yeah that's what I would say narcissists (01:30:12) are drawn to other (01:30:15) narcissists we live in this world that (01:30:18) we've got we have inherited the world (01:30:19) we've been born into and it's got a lot (01:30:22) of tough stuff to from we've been (01:30:24) talking about a lot of it um not at the (01:30:27) individual level but at the at the (01:30:29) larger scale what are some of your ideas (01:30:32) for things that would set up American (01:30:35) culture to be more healthy from a (01:30:38) psychological behavioral relational (01:30:42) perspective well I mean not to be a (01:30:45) broken record but that we look at the (01:30:48) way we raise our (01:30:49) children and we start to really be (01:30:53) self-aware about our own (01:30:55) self-centeredness because I think at the (01:30:58) core of what's happening with Society is (01:31:01) that everybody is in their own (01:31:04) self-centered (01:31:06) Silo and we're not functioning as we're (01:31:09) not functioning as a community or in a (01:31:11) communal world anymore we're functioning (01:31:13) in an individualistic World we're (01:31:16) functioning in um a world that demands (01:31:20) things like uh Independence and (01:31:23) self-sufficiency Y and you know and (01:31:26) those all sound like good words you know (01:31:29) Independence doesn't that sound like a (01:31:30) good word doesn't everybody want their (01:31:32) children we've got a good Declaration of (01:31:35) it you know right but actually you don't (01:31:37) want your children to be independent you (01:31:39) want your children to be (01:31:41) interdependent you want your children to (01:31:45) be (01:31:46) relational to be able to love and be (01:31:49) loved when you have a child the first (01:31:50) thing you think is God I hope this child (01:31:53) is loved and can be (01:31:55) loved right that's all you want for your (01:31:58) children if you're dying and your (01:32:00) children aren't attached or married you (01:32:03) know I've treated some adults whose (01:32:05) parents are dying and they're like (01:32:07) please get married please please marry (01:32:10) your boyfriend just marry them before I (01:32:12) die because the idea that you would die (01:32:15) before your children are either loved or (01:32:18) being loved right or loving or being (01:32:20) loved so and I think we forget that that (01:32:24) the most important thing in life is (01:32:27) relationships it's more important than (01:32:29) materialism it's more important than (01:32:32) high career achievement it's more (01:32:34) important than pretty much anything (01:32:37) else um and and so we forget that and we (01:32:41) don't teach our children that we teach (01:32:43) our children that they should be highly (01:32:46) educated and again of a certain class (01:32:48) that they should uh make lots of money (01:32:51) that they should uh you know you know (01:32:55) get the gold ring what we don't tell (01:32:57) them is that the most important thing in (01:32:59) life Aristotle said on your (01:33:01) deathbed who's going to be sitting (01:33:03) beside you your boss who made you rich (01:33:06) and gave you a a promotion uh is it (01:33:10) going to be uh you know who's going to (01:33:12) be sitting beside you um is it going to (01:33:15) be your stock broker or is it going to (01:33:16) be your children who and your and your (01:33:19) partner your spouse who love you who (01:33:22) send you off with (01:33:25) uh love and admiration and respect and I (01:33:28) think that Society is going in the wrong (01:33:31) direction one of the other pieces of the (01:33:33) puzzle that's sort of been embedded in (01:33:35) our conversation is (01:33:36) marriage because we can talk about (01:33:40) another institution that we've lost in a (01:33:42) major way you know we talk and one of (01:33:44) the things so you know I started us off (01:33:46) asking about how (01:33:48) you deal with (01:33:51) this the PA pathologies going on with (01:33:53) young men (01:33:55) um one of them is disillusionment again (01:33:59) not for everybody but disillusionment (01:34:02) with marriage as as an Enterprise as an (01:34:05) institution as a thing that you should (01:34:06) want to do um this is in this sort of (01:34:10) red pill movement the sense that oh the (01:34:12) you know the family courts is is rigged (01:34:14) against you you're going to lose your (01:34:16) shirt and a divorce they catastrophy all (01:34:18) these disaster situations oh 50% of (01:34:21) marriages and in divorce why should I (01:34:23) bother what a terrible (01:34:24) bet to make on your life um how do you (01:34:28) think about I mean you're married you (01:34:29) have kids how do you think about what (01:34:32) has happened to marriage (01:34:36) and what is the what how we should think (01:34:39) about (01:34:40) marriage you know as part of our Lives (01:34:44) well so what we know from the research (01:34:46) is that children do better when their (01:34:48) parents are married in (01:34:52) loving healthy marriages that doesn't (01:34:55) mean that they stay together under the (01:34:58) worst circumstances which is intractable (01:35:01) conflict uh I have a book coming out in (01:35:03) a year it's called a parents guide to (01:35:07) divorce and I wrote it because so many (01:35:10) children are (01:35:13) destroyed by divorce yeah now divorce (01:35:16) doesn't have to destroy children it's (01:35:18) not good for children but it doesn't (01:35:20) have to destroy (01:35:21) children um and it is destroying (01:35:24) children because of the very (01:35:26) self-centered narcissistic way in which (01:35:28) people (01:35:30) divorce so is marriage important yes (01:35:33) very important and it's another (01:35:36) institution that's being (01:35:38) deconstructed right so we know that when (01:35:42) when I mentioned family I guess I should (01:35:43) have said marriage but yes marriage is (01:35:46) very important primarily because um (01:35:50) parents two parents are better than one (01:35:55) and why is that you know the the English (01:35:57) say an heir and a spare um they they (01:36:00) serve different functions fathers and (01:36:03) mothers serve different functions and (01:36:05) even with gay couples who are together (01:36:08) generally they'll take different roles (01:36:10) not always and if they don't I advise (01:36:12) them to because you can't have two (01:36:13) fathers or two mothers you need a mother (01:36:15) and a father role so but the idea that (01:36:18) different functions are served by the (01:36:20) sensitive empathic nurturing role and (01:36:22) the uh encouraging resilience and (01:36:24) playful tactile stimulation that role of (01:36:26) encouraging separation the attachment (01:36:28) and the separation roles are different (01:36:31) um the worrying that you're going to (01:36:32) fall out of the tree and the being (01:36:35) excited that you climb that high that's (01:36:36) right and you need both you need the (01:36:39) encouragement to explore and you need (01:36:41) the oh honey I'm so sorry you fell come (01:36:44) and get a hug and you need both right (01:36:47) and so marriage provided that marriage (01:36:49) also provided the security and this is (01:36:51) sounds crazy that if something happened (01:36:54) to one of your parents you still had (01:36:56) another an heir and a (01:36:58) spare and that's a strange thing to say (01:37:01) but kids of a certain age young children (01:37:03) will often say what if you die Mommy and (01:37:06) then Mommy goes well I'm not going (01:37:09) anywhere but if something happened to me (01:37:10) you know you have your dad right or what (01:37:13) if something happens to Daddy well you (01:37:15) know I'm here for you honey and so there (01:37:18) was security you know strength and (01:37:20) numbers there was Security in having two (01:37:23) parents uh and having all their extended (01:37:26) family and what's happening is that (01:37:28) there's this (01:37:30) fetishizing of having children alone so (01:37:34) bizarre men and women not just women men (01:37:37) are going out and getting eggs and (01:37:40) getting surrogates you know uh sometimes (01:37:44) sexual men but a lot of gay men going (01:37:47) out and saying I want a (01:37:49) child and going out it's a toy you can (01:37:51) buy right buying a child because have to (01:37:54) pay for the surrogate and whatever and (01:37:55) that's a very controversial thing to say (01:37:57) but that's essentially what it is saying (01:37:59) I want to be a parent and what they do (01:38:03) in doing that is they are they're (01:38:06) fetishizing the idea of (01:38:08) isolation loneliness um raising (01:38:13) children without the kind of support (01:38:16) that marriage and families provide which (01:38:18) has always provided children with a lot (01:38:20) of (01:38:21) security so yeah it's part of the (01:38:25) deconstructing of society that's (01:38:27) destroying society and making people (01:38:28) feel very insecure if you want to know (01:38:30) what's happening with the Mental Health (01:38:32) crisis we have a world where people feel (01:38:34) very insecure and it's not just because (01:38:36) of climate change or political you know (01:38:39) turmoil it's because emotionally they (01:38:41) don't feel rooted they don't feel rooted (01:38:45) in anything we used to feel rooted in (01:38:47) family rooted in in faith rooted in the (01:38:52) idea that I'm a woman I'm a Jewish woman (01:38:56) uh I'm a Christian man we're losing (01:39:00) things that rooted (01:39:02) people um one of the things (01:39:05) that and I don't know what the numbers (01:39:07) look like because I've heard that (01:39:08) actually our Mobility has declined but (01:39:11) it seems like over the longer span of (01:39:14) human history that we have generally (01:39:17) lived in (01:39:18) multigenerational environments where we (01:39:20) are with our parents our grandparents (01:39:22) now I say this with a feeling of a tinge (01:39:25) of true guilt because I actually moved (01:39:27) to Texas my parents are in Pennsylvania (01:39:29) I don't get to see them nearly enough (01:39:30) that was a choice I made it has been (01:39:32) good for my family but this has been a (01:39:34) cost I've paid of not being close to my (01:39:36) parents I talk to them multiple times a (01:39:39) week um a friend of mine uh um Dan (01:39:43) Butner did this whole this big (01:39:46) international study called about the (01:39:48) blue zones and one of the things he (01:39:50) noted is that the the these regions (01:39:53) which he called Blue BL zones that had (01:39:54) the longest lifespans the most number of (01:39:57) um what's the term for (01:40:01) scented 100y old people SED denarians (01:40:04) that's not the word um (01:40:07) um they lived in multigenerational (01:40:09) families yeah that that like okanawa (01:40:13) Sardinia you know all these different (01:40:15) places these towns there's a town in (01:40:17) Pennsylvania very Italian Catholic town (01:40:19) it's and it's (01:40:20) declining um how do you understand the (01:40:23) import an of (01:40:26) multi-generational community in both the (01:40:30) the the healthy like healthy psychology (01:40:34) and H how much do you think that (01:40:37) that (01:40:39) isolation has played a role in what's (01:40:42) wrong with our society today you should (01:40:44) have Mark fredman on your show Mark (01:40:46) fredman wrote a book called How to live (01:40:47) forever about the loss of (01:40:50) multigenerational living and extended (01:40:52) family and what it's done to Society um (01:40:55) why grandparents used to raise their (01:40:56) children and it helped them live a long (01:40:58) time and why they should do it again um (01:41:02) the idea is that loneliness and lack of (01:41:05) purpose mean we die (01:41:08) sooner and what we've done is we've (01:41:11) created a society that's sort of like (01:41:13) you could say like the eskimos like the (01:41:15) Inuits right where we chip our old (01:41:17) people off and send them to Florida or (01:41:19) they chip themselves off and go to (01:41:21) Arizona and Florida and say I'm going (01:41:23) off to my retirement community those (01:41:25) retirement communities were the death of (01:41:27) society (01:41:29) really um it was real estate developers (01:41:32) concoction we're going to develop (01:41:34) communities where old people can go and (01:41:36) be adolescent again and be free and have (01:41:40) no responsibilities and get higher rates (01:41:42) of STDs than their general population (01:41:44) too meanwhile they didn't live as long (01:41:47) because they were lonely or sure they (01:41:49) had friends until their friends started (01:41:52) to die they had some friendships uh and (01:41:55) then their friends died and then they (01:41:57) realized they had no most older people (01:42:00) don't have friends who are much younger (01:42:02) they rely on their family for that but (01:42:04) their family now live far away and so (01:42:07) they have the loneliness aspect and they (01:42:09) lose purpose once you stop working I (01:42:12) don't recommend anybody retire who's (01:42:13) listening to this podcast particularly (01:42:16) men because their sense of self is very (01:42:18) much tied to their meaningful work Freud (01:42:21) said you need love and meaningful work (01:42:23) and if you don't have meaningful work of (01:42:24) some kind you are going to die sooner I (01:42:27) I I shouldn't say that exactly cause and (01:42:29) effect but pretty much meaningful work (01:42:33) having purpose is very important to (01:42:35) living a long time and so when we lose (01:42:39) our work so you know in the old days you (01:42:41) would have you know you quit the bank (01:42:43) and you got the 50 years you got the (01:42:45) goal watch and you quit your job but now (01:42:48) you like a year now you now you were a (01:42:50) grandfather and now you took your (01:42:52) grandson out for fishing every Saturday (01:42:54) and you picked him up from school on (01:42:56) Wednesdays and took him to his little (01:42:58) league practice and in a small town (01:42:59) that's what a grandfather did uh a (01:43:02) grandmother was there helping with the (01:43:04) babies and you know cooking soup and (01:43:06) there was purpose in caring for others (01:43:08) in being (01:43:10) sacrificing and so in convincing all (01:43:13) these old people to go and live in these (01:43:17) communities they separated (01:43:20) families right we talk about how slavery (01:43:23) separated families nobody talks about (01:43:26) how these retirement communities (01:43:28) separated families well In fairness to (01:43:30) the guys building them guys and G (01:43:31) building them you know it's voluntary (01:43:33) right so this is these are these are (01:43:35) there's it's more complex than just (01:43:36) building the buildings you could say (01:43:38) that but marketing is not voluntary and (01:43:40) they marketed the the hell out of it (01:43:43) right and so you could say is it is it (01:43:46) voluntary if you Market wait what do (01:43:49) what do you mean what do you mean (01:43:49) marketing they marketed when they (01:43:51) developed read the book it's really (01:43:53) interesting I think you'd like this book (01:43:55) he talks about the development of these (01:43:58) these communities um do you think that (01:44:00) marketing is a form of coercion it is (01:44:02) absolutely it's manipulation absolutely (01:44:05) any any why do you think in advertising (01:44:08) firms they always have psychology (01:44:09) Masters in Psychology they're all (01:44:11) psychologist I came out of advertising (01:44:13) it's manipulation but how is it this (01:44:16) is I'll be a little I'll push on this um (01:44:21) because we're surrounded by it right I (01:44:22) mean this is it like and so I would (01:44:26) say there's a truth in that sense in in (01:44:29) that we are in part the product of the (01:44:33) stories and the messaging we get yeah (01:44:35) but what's the difference between (01:44:36) advertising and any other form of (01:44:38) persuasion including this conversation (01:44:40) we're having right now I think (01:44:41) advertising gets kind of a bad WAP from (01:44:44) from from from a lot of quarters if (01:44:45) advertising markets advertising can (01:44:48) Market good things too I mean you can (01:44:50) have positive manipulation but I don't (01:44:52) think encouraging people to leave leave (01:44:53) their families and move to other parts (01:44:55) of the country was positive manipulation (01:44:57) and what happened is people started to (01:44:59) move and then you had no friends all (01:45:02) your friends were going to Florida or to (01:45:04) Arizona especially if you're here in New (01:45:06) York man it's like yeah and so then you (01:45:08) were alone then you were lonely right (01:45:11) then you lost your (01:45:13) community um so and one of the things (01:45:16) that is important as you age is sense of (01:45:20) purpose and not being lonely but (01:45:22) friendships friendships are very (01:45:23) important so if all your friends were (01:45:25) moving to these retirement communities (01:45:27) and no one stayed around your town (01:45:28) anymore or was raising their grandchild (01:45:32) you lost your community so you had to go (01:45:34) where your community was so they (01:45:36) convinced people that it's better to (01:45:39) move away from your children and your (01:45:42) grandchildren so people lost their (01:45:44) purpose because now they no longer had (01:45:46) meaningful work that was paid labor they (01:45:48) were retired right they weren't in their (01:45:50) engineering jobs or their construction (01:45:53) jobs or their law jobs or whatever jobs (01:45:55) they had their meaningful work then (01:45:58) would have been to be responsible so (01:46:02) responsibility is a very healthy thing (01:46:05) it's very healthy to have responsibility (01:46:08) when we don't have responsibility well (01:46:10) we can have too much responsibility and (01:46:12) then be stressed but responsibility is a (01:46:15) very healthy thing for human beings so (01:46:19) they lost their purpose and when they (01:46:20) lost their purpose and they lost their (01:46:23) Community started to die and now they (01:46:25) were isolated and lonely and then they (01:46:28) died sooner so it's the idea is extended (01:46:33) family living close to your family (01:46:35) raising your children near your family (01:46:37) is not only for you and your children (01:46:40) it's also for your (01:46:43) parents my um I take solace in the fact (01:46:46) that my sister and my two niece and (01:46:47) nephew live 10 minutes away from my (01:46:49) parents and it's it's I'm you know if (01:46:52) that wasn't the case I don't think our (01:46:54) current situation would be tenuous I (01:46:56) would probably feel compelled we have to (01:46:58) move back we have to convince them to (01:47:00) move to Texas right or maybe or maybe (01:47:02) they would move to you but the point is (01:47:05) it's like I'll buy you a house that (01:47:06) you're together I think the point is (01:47:08) that you're together that grandparents (01:47:11) who care for their grandchildren are (01:47:14) happier there's a study to show that (01:47:16) grandparents you know and there are (01:47:18) outliers because again this rise in (01:47:21) narcissism where grandparents are going (01:47:24) I don't want to help my I did that I'm (01:47:27) not doing that and that was never a (01:47:30) thing no there was pleasure in watching (01:47:33) your grandchildren grow in watching your (01:47:36) children grow old there was pleasure in (01:47:38) it there was pleasure in nurturing your (01:47:40) children to nurture your (01:47:43) grandchildren there doesn't seem to be (01:47:45) the kind of pleasure uh in the (01:47:47) responsibility anymore so you know we've (01:47:51) talked a lot about Norms we've talked a (01:47:52) lot about about some of these (01:47:55) dichotomous and complimentary (01:47:56) relationships yeah something that um (01:48:01) I've gotten more vocal about on this (01:48:03) show and and has played a role in our (01:48:06) politics and is impacting our kids in (01:48:10) ways that seem pretty dramatic in terms (01:48:12) of (01:48:12) self-identification is gender fluidity (01:48:15) and (01:48:17) transgenderism and this (01:48:20) um first of all the notion that there (01:48:23) can be trans kids which I think (01:48:24) shouldn't be taken for granted as a (01:48:26) thing um that's just said like oh yeah (01:48:29) trans kids but that as a parent I'm (01:48:34) supposed to (01:48:35) affirm very early sometimes even down to (01:48:39) like (01:48:41) toddlers confusion about my (01:48:44) gender now how do you think about this (01:48:48) issue what is your advice for a parent (01:48:52) who (01:48:54) is has a a boy or a girl who is (01:48:58) presenting in certain ways and now (01:49:00) you're getting all this weird feedback (01:49:01) about what you're supposed to do um (01:49:04) what's your take on this issue because (01:49:06) I've got a super old school take that's (01:49:08) like no that's nonsense I'm just going (01:49:10) to say that but that doesn't help you if (01:49:14) your kid is going through this so for (01:49:16) the viewer who actually has a kid that's (01:49:19) that's struggling with with gender ident (01:49:24) identity what should they do how should (01:49:26) they think about this so I have a (01:49:28) different take on this all children are (01:49:30) gender (01:49:31) confused babies are born (01:49:34) genderless and it's not until (01:49:36) toddlerhood that they start to even (01:49:38) start to identify with one parent or (01:49:40) another or show boylik behaviors or (01:49:42) girl-like behaviors so but even going (01:49:45) into the school years um boys can be (01:49:48) more feminine and girls can be tomboys (01:49:51) and be more masculine and (01:49:54) they there has always been should I say (01:49:57) a spectrum for girls and boys (01:50:00) always um it didn't need to be labeled (01:50:03) or diagnosed or acted upon it was just (01:50:08) known that children fluctuate in their (01:50:12) adopting feminine characteristics and (01:50:14) masculine characteristics throughout (01:50:16) childhood and even (01:50:18) adolescence so we've done a disservice (01:50:21) to children but by needing to label it (01:50:25) so there's the labeling again there's (01:50:26) the diagnosing and labeling it um it's (01:50:30) science now because we've given it a (01:50:31) name well it's not science according to (01:50:34) certain therapists like myself I think (01:50:36) it's um I think it is there's a pressure (01:50:40) in the Mental Health Community uh to (01:50:44) agree and I don't agree with the way (01:50:47) that we treat children who are (01:50:50) struggling with gender identity because (01:50:52) all children struggle with gender (01:50:55) identity um a lot of what's happening is (01:50:58) adults projecting onto children now not (01:51:02) in all cases I mean you know there are (01:51:04) some cases uh organically where you see (01:51:08) a little boy at a very young age very (01:51:11) effeminate like you you would say that (01:51:14) little boy is in a little girl's body (01:51:18) and you can see that it's very (01:51:20) rare uh why aren't they just gay aren't (01:51:22) they just gay yeah they could be but in (01:51:25) the old days maybe they would be but we (01:51:28) have to now put a stamp on it put them (01:51:31) in a box label it and that then puts (01:51:34) them on a track puts them on um uh a (01:51:38) conveyor belt and off we go because now (01:51:41) you've been labeled I think all labels (01:51:43) put people on conveyor belts I have (01:51:45) people who come to me and say I'm (01:51:46) bipolar my psychiatrist has me on (01:51:49) medicine on bipolar and as I explore it (01:51:52) more with them I find that they have (01:51:54) emotional regulation issues because they (01:51:57) had a terrible childhood with probably a (01:52:00) borderline mother who um never could (01:52:04) teach them how to regulate their (01:52:06) emotions but the label was stamped on (01:52:09) them at an early age and down the (01:52:11) conveyor belt they go so it can happen (01:52:13) in any kind of situation so we are (01:52:15) stamping children putting them in boxes (01:52:18) and then treating them accordingly um (01:52:20) and and I think that's a mistake I think (01:52:22) it's a mistake stake that we um are (01:52:26) allowing children to make permanent (01:52:29) bodily changes uh before their adults (01:52:32) because their judgment is so impaired (01:52:35) because they shift so much in their (01:52:39) moods in their identities it's it's it's (01:52:42) a constant fluctuation of identity right (01:52:47) I'm I'm Christian I'm an atheist um I'm (01:52:52) you know I'm an environmentalist I'm a (01:52:54) republican um you know there's there's a (01:52:58) constant fluctuation uh in children and (01:53:01) so rather than just allowing them to (01:53:03) fluctuate without having to label them (01:53:05) or put them in boxes or putting them on (01:53:07) the conveyor belt where they are going (01:53:09) towards permanent changes and permanent (01:53:11) boxes so it's it's there's an anxiety in (01:53:15) society right now that we have to put (01:53:17) children in boxes and that's a shame for (01:53:19) me because for the most part the (01:53:21) majority of children (01:53:23) that are being kind of put in these (01:53:25) boxes and labeled and being uh (01:53:29) aggressively treated for these (01:53:32) disorders in in many ways those children (01:53:35) might developmentally even outgrow some (01:53:38) of that fluctuation if allowed to but (01:53:42) there's so much vigilance about it that (01:53:44) it's um it's doing a lot of damage to (01:53:47) Children it came on the (01:53:50) scene so rapidly it was like slow and (01:53:53) then sudden that this became something (01:53:56) that you were (01:53:58) encountering all over the (01:54:01) place what do you attribute that (01:54:04) to because it I mean it really what I I (01:54:09) remember I have a friend who um (01:54:14) transitioned in like the 50s or 60s it's (01:54:17) really like a in know male to to (01:54:19) presenting as female uh and and um and (01:54:25) it's it's an economist I had a bunch of (01:54:28) conversations with this person because I (01:54:29) was like how me understand this but this (01:54:32) was not going that it was like five (01:54:34) years ago and it was like not even (01:54:36) remotely the scale of the conversation (01:54:39) and the (01:54:40) cultural you know Jaguar just did a (01:54:44) really ridiculous and kind of pathetic (01:54:46) ad campaign about rebranding and it's (01:54:48) just this gender (01:54:50) androgynous soup ad there isn't even a (01:54:52) car in it it's like how about a car how (01:54:54) about instead of the guy dressed like a (01:54:55) girl how about a (01:54:56) car what do you attribute that to that (01:54:59) that culture shift that's really like (01:55:02) aggressive culture shift and do you (01:55:04) think we're coming through the other end (01:55:06) of it now I think it was rebellious it (01:55:10) was a rejection of structure it was (01:55:13) rebellious um and rather than just (01:55:16) saying okay this is um teenagers being (01:55:21) and young adults being rebellious I mean (01:55:23) again there have always been transgender (01:55:26) people or people that cross-dressed or (01:55:29) identified as the other gender (01:55:31) always um I don't know this may be (01:55:34) politically incorrect but if you (01:55:35) remember Saturday Night Live do you (01:55:37) remember Pat yeah oh yeah of course in (01:55:39) the 80s okay yeah I may get really uh (01:55:42) you know slammed for mentioning Pat but (01:55:45) pat was an example of there were always (01:55:48) people who androus quite fit into a box (01:55:53) but they were a very small minority and (01:55:55) they still are a very small minority so (01:56:01) it's a little bit of tyranny of the (01:56:04) minority which I think is sort of what's (01:56:06) happening with the victimization tyranny (01:56:08) of the minority the rise of the (01:56:11) individual over communal interests so is (01:56:15) it good for all children to be taught (01:56:17) about transgender because there's one (01:56:19) child in a class of 20 children who (01:56:23) struggling we accept all but do we want (01:56:26) to introduce the confusion to all of (01:56:28) those children (01:56:30) developmentally and the answer is (01:56:32) probably not so it's the rise of the (01:56:35) indivi it's it's the (01:56:37) same kind of thing we've been talking (01:56:39) about the rise of the (01:56:41) individual over the community and what (01:56:43) the communal interests are so we want to (01:56:47) accept everyone right so a lot of those (01:56:49) kids who were oh hard to figure out in (01:56:53) terms of their gender in the 70s or the (01:56:56) 80s or whenever those kids got teased (01:56:59) they were marginalized and that wasn't (01:57:01) fair and so you'd say right the (01:57:03) awareness that people are different that (01:57:05) people can be different in many ways and (01:57:08) that we accept all people whatever their (01:57:11) ethnicity whatever their religion (01:57:14) whatever their uh whatever identity they (01:57:18) are that's different than prati and (01:57:21) teaching these things to very young (01:57:23) children who are developmentally not (01:57:25) prepared to handle th this kind of (01:57:28) education because they're not actually (01:57:30) developmentally capable of handling uh a (01:57:33) talk about gender confusion so do we (01:57:37) want to accept the minority of course we (01:57:40) do do we want to elevate them to a level (01:57:43) that it's taking front and center of the (01:57:47) conversation no and that's what we've (01:57:49) done we've allowed it to sort of pre (01:57:52) occupy us to sort of dominate the (01:57:55) conversation and there are very small (01:57:58) percent of people in this country so we (01:58:00) want to accept but we also don't want to (01:58:03) pratie and that's what's happening the (01:58:07) um this has I have I have some nephews (01:58:11) who are going through a medical (01:58:13) school and this (01:58:16) um gender (01:58:18) ideology has permeated the medical (01:58:20) schools to some degree there and they're (01:58:23) like in the midwest going to a state (01:58:26) school in the Midwest and you know we (01:58:29) were get we were all together for for (01:58:31) Christmas last year and they're like oh (01:58:32) it's super woke you everybody's saying (01:58:34) their pronouns it's all crazy medical (01:58:37) school it's like this is so it's like I (01:58:39) guess did you flunk biology then I don't (01:58:42) understand the institutional Embrace I (01:58:45) mean I think I do and I think it sounds (01:58:48) a lot like everybody else talks about (01:58:49) this which is just like sort of academic (01:58:51) radicalism on a Muk and Echo Chambers um (01:58:56) but even so it's like this this has been (01:59:00) like the breakpoint for I think a lot of (01:59:02) people myself included where it's like (01:59:03) the bridge too far it's one thing to be (01:59:05) talking (01:59:06) about radical economics but you're like (01:59:09) attacking the foundational human reality (01:59:11) of our our being our biological being um (01:59:16) well again undermining the structure of (01:59:19) society that keeps Society together the (01:59:21) glue that holds Society together you (01:59:24) start to take take the glue out and (01:59:27) Society falls apart which is what's (01:59:28) happening it seems like that's the (01:59:30) intention right deconstruct do you think (01:59:33) that you would you say that there is an (01:59:35) actual um Active Vision of social reform (01:59:40) that is fundamentally revolutionary (01:59:43) that's underneath all of this I think (01:59:45) there's an angry rebellious nature to it (01:59:48) which is you know we're going to burn it (01:59:50) all down yeah and so (01:59:53) and burning down the structure of (01:59:56) society is not what we want to be doing (01:59:59) we want to reform Society we want to (02:00:01) make it better we don't want to burn it (02:00:04) down we want to renovate we don't want (02:00:06) to burn it down and have to build a new (02:00:09) one because it took thousands of years (02:00:11) to build this one so this is more of a (02:00:14) philosophical question which is (02:00:16) H at any given (02:00:19) moment there is the norm and there's The (02:00:24) Fringe (02:00:26) and over time that shifts and changes (02:00:30) and the question for the for the person (02:00:33) that wants to struggle with this what is (02:00:35) the truth what is Justice actually (02:00:38) mean do you have a vision or a way you (02:00:41) think about when change is no longer (02:00:46) appropriate like when we because there (02:00:48) is a kind of um it is I think the (02:00:50) progressive impulse to say well you're (02:00:53) never done changing it's like well what (02:00:54) point are you never done changing well (02:00:56) we we've got we've now got gender (02:00:58) equality to the point that women are (02:00:59) outperforming men and just about (02:01:00) everything except maybe stem and (02:01:02) construction okay so is that are we done (02:01:05) then aren't we done it's like well no (02:01:07) now we've got to deconstruct what a (02:01:08) woman even is I think we were done (02:01:11) before this but do you have a do you (02:01:13) have a a a aame for that when should we (02:01:18) stop when is enough enough people are (02:01:19) playing God because we are I mean if (02:01:22) you're a person of Faith you'd say (02:01:25) biologically it's taken thousands of (02:01:28) years to create human beings in the form (02:01:30) that they're in and we come with a (02:01:35) structure a makeup hormones that impact (02:01:38) our Behavior our nurturing behaviors as (02:01:40) far as I know there aren't any men that (02:01:42) are giving birth or breastfeeding (02:01:43) children how dare you um and so and (02:01:46) probably hopefully hopefully never will (02:01:48) be um but the idea is that to deny some (02:01:53) of the basic (02:01:55) biological um sort of truths the (02:01:58) inconvenient truths that it's taken (02:02:01) thousands of years to (02:02:03) develop as we are as humans and we're (02:02:06) not going to change it all up in 75 (02:02:09) years or you know I mean and the changes (02:02:13) happening as you say so quickly um so (02:02:16) you can't deny the reality that women (02:02:19) give birth to children that they produce (02:02:21) certain hor hormones that affect their (02:02:23) nurturing behaviors or that men have (02:02:26) certain nurturing behaviors um and in a (02:02:30) way a lot of the depression and anxiety (02:02:33) may very well have to do with (02:02:35) suppressing a lot of those (02:02:37) behaviors um I see that postpartum has (02:02:40) gone up postpartum depression has risen (02:02:45) dramatically uh in this country to the (02:02:48) extent that um some of the figures I (02:02:51) read are 30% of women suffer 30% yeah (02:02:55) suffer from postpartum depression it was (02:02:57) 20% I think it's more like (02:03:00) 30% and what's that about and what it is (02:03:04) about is that we're denying women their (02:03:07) Natural Instincts to want to nurture (02:03:09) their children we're creating Conflict (02:03:11) for them so where does depression come (02:03:13) from it can come from trauma from your (02:03:16) own childhood it can also come from too (02:03:19) much stress and conflict we've created (02:03:22) so many conflicts for women who feel (02:03:24) pulled in two directions right we've (02:03:27) created conflicts for men who feel (02:03:30) pulled in different directions aren't I (02:03:32) supposed to be a man but now I'm (02:03:33) supposed to be more like a woman and so (02:03:36) that creates depression and anxiety so (02:03:39) as I said (02:03:41) earlier therapy is not creating me the (02:03:44) Mental Health crisis Society is creating (02:03:46) the Mental Health crisis and we need to (02:03:48) train more therapists to cope with it (02:03:51) while trying to change (02:03:53) society we haven't talked about social (02:03:58) media um or some of the other things but (02:04:02) social media and just digital devices (02:04:04) and connectivity um Jonathan height who (02:04:07) we both know that's he he's dying on (02:04:10) that hill to some extent with what he's (02:04:12) focus on focusing on now how do you (02:04:14) think about um what should be done about (02:04:19) uh social media both at the individual (02:04:22) level like as a parent you know when (02:04:25) should we give our kids a phone from (02:04:26) your perspective and um do you support (02:04:29) these some of these efforts to legally (02:04:31) like Australia I think is contemplating (02:04:33) Banning Social media apps for for kids (02:04:36) I'm my libertarian streak is not a big (02:04:39) fan of that kind of thing but um what (02:04:41) where's what's your take on so I was (02:04:43) just in Australia speaking for Ark so um (02:04:46) yeah I know about that um Jonathan (02:04:49) height is correct in saying that um um (02:04:52) social media is damaging to Children um (02:04:55) and the smartphone um is you know Jee (02:05:00) twangy was the one who came up with the (02:05:02) idea of the smartphone being bad for (02:05:04) children it's really the smartphone (02:05:06) that's bad for children um that was the (02:05:09) beginning so even before social (02:05:12) media having to be constantly connected (02:05:15) and to have no sense of Independence or (02:05:19) separation didn't allow you to develop a (02:05:22) sense of uh security being separate from (02:05:26) contact with your parents or contact (02:05:28) with everyone right it didn't allow for (02:05:31) loneness ever right before the when you (02:05:35) remember what it was like before the (02:05:36) smartphone we we had a sense change I (02:05:39) can feel the change in myself I can feel (02:05:42) the like way that I am dependent on (02:05:45) checking things and and and struggle to (02:05:48) maintain social media that's your emails (02:05:51) that's your text that's your (02:05:53) phone Constant Contact that doesn't (02:05:56) allow the space that human beings need (02:05:59) they need space from social contact even (02:06:02) babies if you see the way that babies (02:06:04) interact with (02:06:06) adults they connect and then when (02:06:10) they're overwhelmed and they're done (02:06:11) they disconnect they look away they get (02:06:13) over stimulated yeah they look away and (02:06:15) then when they're ready to reconnect (02:06:17) they reconnect but then they look away (02:06:19) and they do their own thing again right (02:06:22) we need that as human beings we need (02:06:24) breakes we need social relational (02:06:26) contact but we need brakes the (02:06:28) smartphone took away the (02:06:30) brakes and that really was the beginning (02:06:34) of the downfall so if you want to say (02:06:36) technology in terms of the smartphone (02:06:38) really was damaging to people's me (02:06:40) mental health now add social media which (02:06:45) provided mostly teenagers but adults too (02:06:47) with a (02:06:49) perfectionistic view of the world um a (02:06:53) competitive perfectionistic view of the (02:06:56) world constant (02:06:58) stimulation constant overwhelming (02:07:01) stimulation that then triggered these (02:07:04) dopamine reactions so what we know is (02:07:06) that if you overload a child's dopamine (02:07:11) receptors when they are under the age of (02:07:15) 14 and I've heard statistics to say (02:07:17) under the age of 16 I just think (02:07:20) Jonathan was trying to mitigate it and (02:07:23) make it easier for parents to swallow (02:07:25) but I think it's 16 that sounds more (02:07:27) right because under the age of 16 if you (02:07:29) start to drink alcohol or smoke (02:07:31) marijuana or do drugs or gamble or look (02:07:35) at por or get a smartphone you are more (02:07:38) likely to become addicted to it that is (02:07:41) what the research (02:07:43) says whereas if you wait to you get your (02:07:47) adolescent past early (02:07:50) adolescence into middle adolescence (02:07:52) towards the end towards late adolescence (02:07:55) you are more likely to see social media (02:07:58) as an (02:07:59) adversity as something to be regulated (02:08:02) but not something that you are obsessive (02:08:04) over or addicted to because once you get (02:08:07) the dopamine going at such an early age (02:08:10) the brain becomes used to it and used to (02:08:13) being stimulated by it and then can't (02:08:16) function without it and it's very very (02:08:19) difficult for a child who's been exposed (02:08:22) to marijuana under the age of 16 to (02:08:25) withdraw from marijuana very hard once (02:08:27) they start drinking before 16 so you (02:08:31) know I always encourage the kids that I (02:08:33) treat you know you what about Italy and (02:08:35) Spain and France they're like drinking (02:08:36) they're is it is this is it is it a (02:08:39) toxicity as a function of dose when it (02:08:40) comes to the alcohol there's there is a (02:08:43) lot of controversy about that um (02:08:46) basically they micro do their kids with (02:08:49) wine so in other words they'll allow (02:08:52) their children if you go to Italy they (02:08:53) don't allow their children to drink a (02:08:55) lot they'll give their children this (02:08:57) much wine with dinner the lowest rates (02:09:00) of alcoholism in Europe too yeah they (02:09:02) don't have a culture of excessive (02:09:04) drinking they use wine as a condiment to (02:09:07) food they don't really um they don't (02:09:10) really have a culture of alcoholism we (02:09:12) have a culture of obsessiveness in our (02:09:14) culture so you know and if you expose (02:09:17) children to excessive drinking excessive (02:09:19) marijuana smoking um (02:09:22) then they're more likely to become (02:09:24) addicted so social media is no different (02:09:26) so if we can keep smartphones and social (02:09:30) media out of the hands of kids give them (02:09:32) a flip phone you know I sat down with a (02:09:36) at a conference with a Google executive (02:09:38) who you know she was in charge of um (02:09:42) making Google phones safe for for (02:09:46) children creating Google phones and I (02:09:48) said you know you've got to do something (02:09:49) she said we have she said we have a (02:09:52) phone we've had a phone for years the (02:09:55) grown-ups don't want to buy it for the (02:09:57) kids we marketed it and they don't want (02:10:00) to buy it so now I'm thinking well now (02:10:03) maybe it's doing better um but and maybe (02:10:06) because of Jonathan in his book but the (02:10:08) idea is that if you can keep smartphones (02:10:12) and social media away from your children (02:10:14) until they're 16 there's a lesser (02:10:16) there's a greater chance that they'll (02:10:18) see it as something to deal with and an (02:10:21) adversity but not something that will (02:10:23) bury them or drown them do you think we (02:10:27) this is the interesting challenge of our (02:10:30) times that there's a lot of things about (02:10:33) what works because because we evolved in (02:10:36) them and because they're natural that (02:10:38) are no longer you don't need to do them (02:10:41) anymore and so they're and so now you (02:10:42) have to do it (02:10:43) consciously (02:10:45) and as somebody who doesn't want the (02:10:47) government to do very (02:10:49) much if the government's not going to do (02:10:51) it the people in Civil Society have to (02:10:53) do it which relies on a culture that (02:10:56) supports that so how do you how do you (02:10:58) think about on this issue in particular (02:11:01) so are you in favor of government reg (02:11:02) regulatory action on this front or is it (02:11:04) like that's going to go nowhere good how (02:11:06) do you think about it so I'm not a (02:11:09) Libertarian um but I also don't believe (02:11:12) in excessive regulation but I do believe (02:11:15) in regulation I do believe the (02:11:17) government has a role to (02:11:19) play um in providing structure so (02:11:23) there's another structure if a (02:11:24) Libertarian wants to deconstruct the use (02:11:27) of government it's not important I think (02:11:30) government is is another institution (02:11:32) that has its use and is important like (02:11:35) family like marriage like Faith um it (02:11:39) has its use it shouldn't be a and um so (02:11:44) what would that look like there are some (02:11:46) things that government regulating is (02:11:49) helpful for and in this case I think (02:11:52) that parents cannot be trusted to parent (02:11:54) anymore and that's a terrible thing to (02:11:56) say but I think putting the government (02:11:59) in (02:12:00) charge but I think by creating (02:12:04) structures so I treat parents who are (02:12:08) drinking and drugging with their kids (02:12:10) because they think it's a good idea to (02:12:12) be peers with their children again take (02:12:15) the structure out the (02:12:17) authoritarian approach to Parenting (02:12:19) where parents are above children and (02:12:21) have authority and power over them you (02:12:24) know this is part of what Society is (02:12:26) suffering with so you're trusting (02:12:29) parents to do the right thing and I'm (02:12:31) saying I'm not sure I do trust parents (02:12:34) to know what the right thing is I'm I'm (02:12:37) not saying I trust parents I'm saying I (02:12:40) don't trust voters anymore than I don't (02:12:41) trust parents that's all I'm saying (02:12:43) right so what could what could the (02:12:45) government do the government could say (02:12:48) that um that social media is is illegal (02:12:52) for children under the age of 16 that (02:12:54) would be a start uh they could say that (02:12:58) they could (02:12:59) put I guess warnings on smartphones and (02:13:03) say buying your child a smartphone is (02:13:05) hazardous to your child's health under (02:13:07) the age of (02:13:08) 16 um in the end parents can sneak (02:13:13) social media can sneak you know I've (02:13:16) seen parents sneak their children drugs (02:13:18) and alcohol right right black markets (02:13:20) happen right so um you are trusting (02:13:24) individual parents and I'm saying (02:13:26) sometimes you can and sometimes you (02:13:28) can't and so you need some structure in (02:13:30) society and laws having said that um I (02:13:33) think if you are of a Libertarian (02:13:35) approach then you live in a (02:13:38) community where people are like-minded (02:13:40) with you a religious community it's been (02:13:43) shown that if you live in a religious (02:13:45) community a Christian Community a Jewish (02:13:47) Community where people have similar (02:13:49) values and you educate your children in (02:13:51) the you know but then what you're saying (02:13:53) is um people should live in Shettles (02:13:56) again should isolate should right I mean (02:13:59) so essentially that's what what it would (02:14:01) mean to live in some extent perhaps but (02:14:04) okay so then you live in a (02:14:06) community uh where people have similar (02:14:09) values to you and you say to all of the (02:14:12) parents in your community it's another (02:14:14) way of going about it you say we're all (02:14:16) going to agree not to give our children (02:14:19) a smartphone or social media until (02:14:21) there's 16 I think this is actually (02:14:23) happening in an emergent way especially (02:14:25) among the parents who have decided to (02:14:27) homeschool yes and and to a greater (02:14:29) extent in the aftermath of covid where (02:14:31) you saw the school system being a a a (02:14:35) barbaric parasite creature that it is (02:14:37) and so and in religious communities yeah (02:14:39) and saying like I'm out of this and then (02:14:41) you find and so my sister's now (02:14:43) homeschooling her kids and she's part of (02:14:45) this hybrid Academy and she has built a (02:14:48) community and so she has um of similar (02:14:53) yeah a community of similar values I can (02:14:55) let my son go to your house and you can (02:14:57) let your son come to my house because we (02:14:58) don't have the phones in either house so (02:15:00) it's not like I can have my rules but (02:15:01) then as soon as you go outside the rules (02:15:03) are out the door which is the other part (02:15:05) that's so hard as an individual parent (02:15:06) but in a heterogenous Society because (02:15:09) that's talking about homogeneity of (02:15:11) values which is you could say we used to (02:15:13) live like that you know you lived in (02:15:16) small communities and you you had a (02:15:18) group of people that had the same value (02:15:20) system as you but we live in a (02:15:22) heterogeneous society with people of (02:15:25) different faiths and beliefs and values (02:15:27) and cultures and and so and that's both (02:15:30) good and difficult because that means (02:15:33) you are thrown together and your (02:15:34) children are thrown together with (02:15:37) Children of other families with other (02:15:39) value (02:15:40) systems it's um we're coming to the end (02:15:43) of our time (02:15:45) together I um as you look ahead as you (02:15:49) look out in the (02:15:50) landscape are you optimistic or (02:15:52) pessimistic about very optimistic I (02:15:55) wouldn't do what I do if I was (02:15:56) pessimistic I would curl up in a ball (02:15:58) and cry because it's really upsetting (02:16:01) what's happening um you know I'm part of (02:16:04) this organization called Arc the (02:16:06) alliance for responsible citizenship and (02:16:08) I got involved because it's a doing (02:16:11) organization it's a Solutions oriented (02:16:13) organization it's given me a platform to (02:16:15) go around the world and talk about these (02:16:17) important issues um and so no I'm very (02:16:21) up optimistic and um you know because (02:16:24) people have the capacity to change I (02:16:27) wouldn't be a therapist if I didn't (02:16:28) think that people have the capacity to (02:16:30) change they have to want to change so (02:16:33) you have to expose people to enough (02:16:36) knowledge that they can make good (02:16:38) choices for themselves and their (02:16:39) families but I believe that people have (02:16:41) the capacity to change one thing that I (02:16:44) think is I believe it is fundamentally (02:16:48) healthy and good as an outcome of the (02:16:50) election and you and I I voted for Trump (02:16:52) I with caveats but I lesser two evils (02:16:56) for me but I think one thing that I (02:16:58) think is healthy if you are a (02:17:00) liberal-minded (02:17:01) person is that we it seems like at least (02:17:04) right now as we sit (02:17:05) here you got like football players doing (02:17:08) the Trump dance and stuff like that you (02:17:10) don't have to like Trump I'm not saying (02:17:11) you have to like Trump but we should be (02:17:13) able to live in a country where both (02:17:15) sides can actually feel like they can (02:17:17) celebrate when their when their when (02:17:18) their political Victory happens both (02:17:20) sides not one side has the entire (02:17:23) cultural meu and the other side are (02:17:26) fascists would you agree with that do (02:17:28) you think in in that respect you know (02:17:30) you can talk about whether you think (02:17:31) Trump is good or bad if you want but (02:17:34) this isn't it I think there's a culture (02:17:35) moment in this election especially (02:17:37) because the election was pretty thin on (02:17:39) policy yeah it does feel like there was (02:17:42) a cultural mini Reckoning that's taken (02:17:45) place I think both sides are poor losers (02:17:48) that's what I really think I think (02:17:50) that's not wrong thing that you teach (02:17:52) your children from a very young age is (02:17:55) how to deal with disappointment and (02:17:58) rejection and losing it's actually more (02:18:01) important to teach your children how to (02:18:03) lose than how to win you want to (02:18:05) celebrate their wins and you want to (02:18:06) admire them for their wins but it's very (02:18:08) important to help them to uh be able to (02:18:12) accept their (02:18:13) losses and I guess we're in a society (02:18:17) where you know parents are not teaching (02:18:20) children how to to deal with losses (02:18:23) because neither party is very good at (02:18:26) accepting (02:18:28) losing and we all lose sometimes it it (02:18:32) is that that does drive all the way down (02:18:33) to the individual doesn't it the just (02:18:36) total disc it's it goes back to the (02:18:38) start of our conversation they like if I (02:18:41) don't ask her out I won't lose I won't (02:18:44) get I won't face rejection that's right (02:18:47) and that's actually self-esteem is based (02:18:49) on contrary to popular belief (02:18:52) self-esteem is not based on all the good (02:18:54) things about you and all your strengths (02:18:57) it's equally based on your limitations (02:19:00) it's as much based on your wins as it is (02:19:02) about your (02:19:03) losses and that's something that I think (02:19:06) today if you have a narcissistic parent (02:19:09) it's all about winning and it's all (02:19:10) about your strengths and it's all about (02:19:12) perfection and the truth is that's not (02:19:14) what self-esteem is based on it's based (02:19:16) on a balance of our strengths and our (02:19:18) weaknesses our wins and our losses (02:19:22) one of the things (02:19:24) that is so interesting to observe in (02:19:27) yourself to me is how little we know (02:19:31) about what we're capable of ourselves (02:19:34) like you think who knows me better than (02:19:36) me and yet we accomplish things that we (02:19:40) don't think we can do which is weird (02:19:43) because how did I not know I could do (02:19:46) that thing I did and I think that that (02:19:49) lesson is so potent because (02:19:52) when you do that a couple times it opens (02:19:55) up the future in such a powerful way but (02:19:58) you have to (02:19:59) overcome this first step which is trying (02:20:03) to do something that you don't think you (02:20:05) can (02:20:06) do um and I I know as a parent this has (02:20:10) been like at the foreground of my um me (02:20:13) and my wife's modus atand eyes let's (02:20:16) make sure our son gets enough (02:20:19) opportunities to see what he's capable (02:20:21) of even if he fails failure is actually (02:20:23) almost Sometimes the best outcome (02:20:26) because when you survive it wow I'm (02:20:29) still (02:20:30) here oh that class was hard and I got a (02:20:34) D but I'm still here I'm alive it didn't (02:20:37) kill me well to take risks you have to (02:20:39) be able to deal with loss that's the (02:20:41) truth you can't take risks unless you (02:20:43) can deal with either (02:20:46) outcome I I asked you last time I'll ask (02:20:48) you again because I ask at the end of (02:20:49) every show um (02:20:52) we call this Dad Saves America because I (02:20:54) think it's a role we play and I know you (02:20:56) agree that's really important as men how (02:20:59) do you think about your role in the (02:21:01) American (02:21:03) story oh that's a big question my role (02:21:06) in the American story is (02:21:09) to educate people and influence people (02:21:13) to think about things through a (02:21:15) different lens and to maybe think about (02:21:21) some of those structures that we've (02:21:22) thrown away like throwaways as really (02:21:26) being positive and um not Burning Down (02:21:29) The (02:21:30) House Erica comar I think you might be (02:21:33) our first return guest and for good (02:21:36) reason thanks for being on Dad Saves (02:21:38) America again thank you for having me