Joe Rogan Experience #2341 – Bernie Sanders (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:02) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe (00:00:04) Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe (00:00:07) Rogan podcast by night. All day, (00:00:12) Mr. Sanders. Great to see you. Good to (00:00:14) be with you, Joe. Great to be You've got (00:00:17) a bunch of notes. Not all that much. (00:00:19) Have you prepared for this? I am all (00:00:21) prepared. Well, it's a good time for you (00:00:23) to be in here cuz the the world's gone (00:00:24) haywire. Yes. Yeah. What are your (00:00:27) thoughts on this? I think I start off (00:00:30) with Joe trying to take a deep breath (00:00:32) and doing what is not often done. Where (00:00:36) are we as a country today? What's going (00:00:38) well? What's not going well? And I don't (00:00:39) think we don't we don't have that kind (00:00:41) of basic discussion. And to my mind, I (00:00:44) think in America today, we are facing (00:00:46) more (00:00:48) serious crises than we have in the (00:00:50) modern history of our country. This is a (00:00:53) pivotal moment in American history. and (00:00:55) what happens now will depend determine (00:00:58) the lives of our kids and future (00:00:59) generations. (00:01:02) What specifically concerns you? I'll (00:01:04) tell you what concerns me. The issue of (00:01:05) wealth and power. All right. I'm kind of (00:01:08) oldfashioned and I believe in democracy (00:01:11) and I believe that everybody should have (00:01:13) a a good shot at living a decent life. (00:01:16) And what I worry about right now, and (00:01:17) this is an issue, Joe, and it's part of (00:01:19) the problem that just ain't talked about (00:01:21) very much. And I and I applaud, by the (00:01:23) way, you and the other podcasters (00:01:26) who give people the time to really (00:01:27) seriously discuss things rather than (00:01:29) 7-second sound bites, you know, but if (00:01:32) you take a look at where we are as a (00:01:33) nation today, this system is not (00:01:36) working. It's broken. It ain't working (00:01:38) for ordinary human beings. So, you have (00:01:40) an America today where we have more (00:01:43) income and wealth inequality than we've (00:01:46) ever had in the history of this country. (00:01:47) That's just a fact. (00:01:49) Uh you have um (00:01:53) one man uh Mr. Musk uh owning more (00:01:57) wealth than the bottom 52% of American (00:01:59) families. One man 52% of the American (00:02:02) families. You got the top 1% (00:02:05) owning more wealth than the bottom 93%. (00:02:08) You got CEOs of large corporations (00:02:10) making 350 times what their workers (00:02:13) make. And meanwhile, in this richest (00:02:15) country in the history of the world, (00:02:18) workingclass people are getting (00:02:20) decimated today. And again, we don't (00:02:23) talk about it in Congress for reasons (00:02:24) that I'm hope I can get into. Yeah. We (00:02:27) don't talk about it in the corporate (00:02:28) media. (00:02:30) 60% 60% of Americans are living paycheck (00:02:34) to paycheck. Now, I grew up in a family (00:02:36) I don't know your background, but I grew (00:02:37) up in a family live paycheck to (00:02:39) paycheck. And anyone who lives paycheck (00:02:42) to paycheck understands that every (00:02:45) single day is a struggle. You know, you (00:02:46) got to figure out how you feed the kids. (00:02:50) Rents, cost of housing in America off (00:02:52) the charts, healthcare off the charts. (00:02:55) So, right now, as we talk, there are (00:02:56) people worrying, my landlord, you know, (00:02:58) is going to raise my rent by 20%. What (00:03:00) the hell do I do? Where do I go? How do (00:03:02) what schools do my kid go to? How do I (00:03:04) buy decent food for my kids? My mother (00:03:07) is ill. How do I afford prescription (00:03:08) drugs for my mother? Uh my car breaks (00:03:12) down. You know, so you you know, if you (00:03:14) have money, no one thinks of it. Your (00:03:15) car breaks down. Go to the mechanic, you (00:03:16) get it fixed. You know what? A lot of (00:03:18) people don't have a,000 bucks in the (00:03:19) bank right now. So you don't have a (00:03:21) thousand bucks, your car breaks down. (00:03:23) How do you get to work? If you don't get (00:03:24) to work, you get fired. If you get (00:03:25) fired, your whole life is disrupted. 60% (00:03:28) of American How much different is that (00:03:30) than past generations? It's that we've (00:03:33) always had rich and poor. No question (00:03:35) about it. It's worse now. Joe, uh, what (00:03:38) do you attribute that to? (00:03:42) I attribute it to (00:03:46) decades old attacks on the working class (00:03:48) of this country. I attribute it to (00:03:50) horrific trade agreements (00:03:53) which have allowed corporate America to (00:03:55) throw millions of workers out on the (00:03:57) street and move to China, Mexico, and (00:03:59) other low-wage (00:04:01) countries. I attribute it to a corrupt (00:04:03) political system in which billionaires (00:04:06) have significant control over both (00:04:08) political parties. So that for example, (00:04:11) right now in Washington, the national (00:04:13) minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. So you (00:04:16) got millions of workers today, you know, (00:04:19) making 10, 12, 13 bucks an hour. You (00:04:21) tell me how do people survive on 13 (00:04:23) bucks an hour? When we were kids, or at (00:04:26) least when I was a kid, you worked for a (00:04:28) large company. you had something called (00:04:29) a defined benefit pension plan. You know (00:04:31) that means it means you work for me for (00:04:33) 30 years. When you retire, you're going (00:04:34) to get x hundreds of dollars a week. (00:04:37) That's long gone. Corporations have (00:04:38) gotten rid of that. So you got something (00:04:41) like half of older workers in America (00:04:43) have nothing in the bank when they face (00:04:44) a retirement. I think to answer your (00:04:46) question, I think he got a rigged system (00:04:50) controlled economically and politically (00:04:52) by very very wealthy and powerful people (00:04:55) who could care less for working (00:04:58) families. Now, I don't want to (00:04:59) romanticize the old days because that (00:05:01) would not be true, but there used to be (00:05:03) a kind of a culture. If I was a boss and (00:05:04) I ran a factory, I had a little bit of (00:05:06) concern for you, right? You know, in (00:05:08) general, I would say, I know your wife, (00:05:10) how's the how's your mom doing? And all (00:05:12) that stuff that's gone. You got these (00:05:14) companies that are owned by other (00:05:15) companies that are owned by super (00:05:16) national I, you know, we got involved in (00:05:18) my office. I used to be the chairman of (00:05:20) the labor committee, health, education, (00:05:21) labor. So, I got involved in a lot of (00:05:23) stuff. And when workers were out on (00:05:25) strike, we would call up and see what (00:05:27) was going on, see how we can help. So, (00:05:29) we'd call up to the company and we'd (00:05:31) say, you know, why are you cutting back (00:05:32) on healthcare for your workers? Well, we (00:05:34) don't make that decision. It's owned by (00:05:36) somebody else. Call up somebody else. (00:05:37) Well, we're owned by somebody. You know (00:05:39) how it is. It's just huge. These huge (00:05:40) conglomerates own the bloody world. And (00:05:42) these guys don't give a damn about the (00:05:45) needs of working people. So I would say (00:05:47) that the economy becomes less and less (00:05:49) personal. I have no You're my worker. I (00:05:51) have no care about you because right now (00:05:53) I'm owned by an international who (00:05:55) doesn't know that you exist. And there's (00:05:56) also a diffusion of responsibility. (00:05:58) Absolutely. It's not even in your hands. (00:06:00) Exactly. So the local boss might say, (00:06:02) "Hey, listen. I'm really sorry, but I (00:06:04) didn't have any decision in here." (00:06:05) Right. Right. Right. There's nothing I (00:06:06) can do. Nothing I can do. Um, so I add (00:06:10) all of that up and you have a and then (00:06:13) just look at other things. I mean, you (00:06:14) tell me tell me about the health care (00:06:16) system. Does anybody in America think (00:06:18) this healthare system is working? Well, (00:06:20) you could tell by the assassination when (00:06:22) the assassination of the United (00:06:24) Healthcare guy when that when that (00:06:26) happened there there was people (00:06:28) celebrating. When is there ever someone (00:06:31) gets assassinated on the streets of New (00:06:33) York City and people celebrate, right? (00:06:35) That's terrible. It's terrible. But it (00:06:37) does speak to how people feel about (00:06:39) insurance companies, right? Well, and I (00:06:41) think rightly so because it's not what (00:06:44) you're paying for. What you're paying (00:06:46) for is you're hoping that you never get (00:06:49) sick, but if you pay your insurance, you (00:06:51) will be covered. What they're trying to (00:06:54) do is make it as difficult as possible (00:06:55) for you to get money from it. You got (00:06:57) it. That's the more money the more I can (00:06:59) deny you, the more money I make. Right. (00:07:01) And that's the bottom line. And when (00:07:02) you're dealing with these enormous (00:07:04) corporations like we're talking about (00:07:05) this diffusion of responsibility, the (00:07:07) people that are doing it, it's like this (00:07:08) is what I have to do. This is my job. (00:07:10) They don't even think about it. Right. (00:07:12) Exactly. And this all started when like (00:07:15) when So Michael Moore had that brilliant (00:07:18) documentary, Roger and Me. Yeah. Yeah. (00:07:20) Michael's a good friend. Yeah. Uh he's a (00:07:23) great guy. That that documentary is (00:07:25) fantastic and it it shows the impact of (00:07:28) a corporation taking all their (00:07:31) factories, moving them away like that (00:07:34) with no warning, no recourse, nothing (00:07:36) anybody can do. Decimates (00:07:39) the the basically all of Detroit. That's (00:07:42) right. People don't know this. Yeah. But (00:07:45) if my memory is correct, Detroit used to (00:07:47) be in the 50s third richest city in the (00:07:50) world. You got it. Yes. Yeah. We've (00:07:52) talked about it multiple times. It's (00:07:54) disgusting. And especially me as someone (00:07:57) who loves American automobiles, I'm a (00:07:59) big fan of what Detroit made during that (00:08:02) time. And to see what happened to (00:08:05) Detroit now. The last time I was in (00:08:07) Detroit, it's actually seems to be (00:08:08) picking up. There's a lot of uh small (00:08:10) businesses and a lot of artists and a (00:08:13) lot of people that are proud to like (00:08:15) Shyola, companies like that. Proud to be (00:08:17) in Detroit, but there's just so many (00:08:20) abandoned buildings. It's It's insane. (00:08:22) You could buy a house there for 500 (00:08:23) bucks. It's really crazy. Like giant (00:08:27) factories where every window smashed, (00:08:29) all the pipes have been torn out, and (00:08:31) it's just this hulking. And it's not (00:08:33) just Detroit, right? I mean, there other (00:08:35) communities, corporations say, "Hey, I (00:08:38) mean, and that path is unsustainable, (00:08:41) right?" I think so. Yeah. I mean, and (00:08:44) look, if we are, and again, gets back to (00:08:46) what we want as a nation, but you had (00:08:48) corporations saying, "Hey, back then, (00:08:50) not now, I could pay workers in China 25 (00:08:53) cents an hour. Why the hell do I want to (00:08:54) hire you for what it was that five bucks (00:08:56) an hour, whatever it was, right?" And (00:08:58) I'll never forget, Joe, uh, early on (00:09:01) when I was elected to Congress, this was (00:09:03) when we had the NAFTA agreement, I went (00:09:06) to, uh, the Mackiladora area. You know (00:09:09) what that is? And uh it's a special zone (00:09:12) in northern Mexico near the near the (00:09:14) border uh where uh the government there, (00:09:18) this is back decades ago, allowed (00:09:21) American and other European corporations (00:09:23) to settle and got tax breaks there. So (00:09:24) it was attracted all these corporations. (00:09:27) So I went there with a congressional (00:09:29) delegation and this is what I saw. You (00:09:32) saw these beautiful new factories. Now (00:09:34) this is 25, 30 years ago. And then we (00:09:37) said, "All right, I want to see where (00:09:38) the workers live." And I'll never forget (00:09:39) this. As long as I live, (00:09:42) we do. You know those large cardboard (00:09:44) boxes that refrigerators come into and (00:09:46) stoves those big? It's where people were (00:09:48) living. They were living literally in (00:09:50) cardboard boxes making I think at that (00:09:52) point, now this is a long time ago, 25 (00:09:54) cents an hour. So workers in America (00:09:57) were thrown out on the street and people (00:09:59) in Mexico exploited in a horrible way (00:10:01) and these big shiny new factories at the (00:10:04) time. So what you got and I believe this (00:10:07) strongly you asked me you know how does (00:10:09) it happen why does it happen I think (00:10:12) especially right now and and for many (00:10:14) decades you have the prevailing religion (00:10:17) of the oligarchs and the corporate world (00:10:21) is greed that's all I want it all and I (00:10:24) don't give a [ __ ] if I have to step all (00:10:25) over you throw you out on the street (00:10:27) take away your social security I want it (00:10:30) and to hell with you and that's why you (00:10:32) end up with a situation in America (00:10:34) America where you know the top 1% now (00:10:37) owns more wealth than the bottom 93% and (00:10:39) millions of people struggle. It's also a (00:10:41) corporate culture of competitiveness, (00:10:43) right? So they're competing with all the (00:10:44) other corporations and you have to keep (00:10:47) up and there's no way other than to (00:10:50) increase your profits every quarter. (00:10:52) That's right. That's right. That is (00:10:54) exactly you do the right thing by (00:10:55) workers. All right. That's a perfect (00:10:57) example. So you know you got Wall (00:11:00) Street. Here's here's a fact. When we (00:11:02) talk about it, it's not only income and (00:11:04) wealth inequality that bothers me. It's (00:11:07) concentration of ownership. (00:11:09) So, right now in America, in virtually (00:11:12) every sector of our economy, whether (00:11:14) it's agriculture, transportation, (00:11:16) financial services, whatever, you got a (00:11:18) handful of giant multinationals (00:11:20) controlling that sector. But here's (00:11:22) another amazing fact. (00:11:25) Who do you think owns these (00:11:26) corporations? You know, you remember (00:11:29) there was a day where somebody actually (00:11:30) owned General Motors or owned Ford. (00:11:32) They're now owned by Wall Street firms. (00:11:34) You got three Wall Street investment (00:11:36) firms. Black Rockck, you're familiar (00:11:38) with Black Rockck. They're char street. (00:11:40) Exactly. Yeah. Check it out on Google. (00:11:43) They are combined, the three of them (00:11:45) combined are the major stockholders of (00:11:47) 95% of American corporations. How's (00:11:49) that? That's not good. That's power, (00:11:52) right? How did that start and what could (00:11:54) have been done to stop that from (00:11:55) happening? Well, I think it's it's again (00:11:59) it's greed. These guys are smart. (00:12:01) They're hardworking. They're motivated. (00:12:03) They want more and more. So, if I can (00:12:05) buy this, I can buy this. I can sell (00:12:06) this. Right. But they're all doing it (00:12:07) within the law, right? Yeah. Yeah. (00:12:09) Right. But which is is that the problem? (00:12:11) Yeah. But who makes that law? They do. (00:12:14) Now, I want to go to another issue. (00:12:16) Yeah. Which is very rarely discussed. (00:12:19) All right. You ready for it? I'm ready. (00:12:20) All right. Hang on. Here we go. (00:12:23) and is the the problem I think that we (00:12:26) face as a country is not just economic (00:12:28) disparities and all the stuff that we're (00:12:30) talking about the rich getting richer (00:12:31) and the poor getting poorer. It is (00:12:34) political power right now. And I doubt (00:12:37) that there are many Americans, whether (00:12:38) you're a progressive as I am or a (00:12:40) right-wing Republican, (00:12:42) I don't think people can disagree that (00:12:44) we have a corrupt campaign finance (00:12:46) system. Argue with me? You agree? No, I (00:12:48) agree with you. Yeah. All right. So, let (00:12:50) me talk about what it means. Okay. (00:12:54) As a result of the Citizens United (00:12:56) Supreme Court decision, I think it's 15, (00:12:58) 16 years old. What it says is you're a (00:13:01) billionaire, (00:13:02) you have now the constitutional right (00:13:05) because your money is your freedom of (00:13:07) expression, right? So you don't like (00:13:10) Bernie Sanders, you can put millions or (00:13:13) hundreds of millions of dollars into a (00:13:15) campaign and express your view about how (00:13:18) terrible Bernie Sanders is and you can (00:13:20) buy that election. Right? Constitution, (00:13:21) right? I think that's probably the worst (00:13:23) decision that the Supreme Court has ever (00:13:25) made. So, what is the result of that (00:13:27) decision? (00:13:28) The result of that decision, let's take (00:13:30) us to where we are today, is that Elon (00:13:34) Musk, and I know Alain was on your show (00:13:36) and he's here in Austin, huh? Yeah. (00:13:39) Okay. And I've we could talk about (00:13:41) Alain, but he spent $270 million to (00:13:44) elect Trump as president. Okay. (00:13:47) I think that's absurd that any one (00:13:49) person What's the most someone donated (00:13:51) towards the Harris campaign? (00:13:54) They spent a lot of money on Harris as (00:13:55) well. They spent $ 1.5 billion just over (00:13:58) the course of a couple of months. You (00:13:59) got it. All right. Let me talk about it. (00:14:01) So, I'm not here just to say it's a (00:14:02) Republican. That's my point here, right? (00:14:04) Okay. So, M spends that money and what's (00:14:07) his reward? He becomes the most powerful (00:14:09) person in government for three or four (00:14:10) months. Okay, fine. (00:14:13) But what you have right now, and I just (00:14:16) saw this the other day, (00:14:18) you are a Republican member of Congress, (00:14:20) okay? And you say, you know, there's a (00:14:22) reconciliation bill, which we can talk (00:14:24) about in a minute, that this is Trump's (00:14:25) big bad big beautiful bill that's coming (00:14:28) up literally on the floor of the Senate (00:14:30) very shortly. So, let's say you're a (00:14:32) Republican representing a low income (00:14:34) district. and you say, you know, you (00:14:37) know, I I got a lot of people on (00:14:38) Medicaid in my district and kids can't (00:14:40) get to college and I worry about food (00:14:42) programs. I don't think it's a good idea (00:14:44) to give tax breaks to billionaires and (00:14:46) cut back on Medicaid. You make that (00:14:48) announcement today. What happens to you? (00:14:52) It's over. You get attacked. You're (00:14:54) finished. The swarm comes for you. You (00:14:56) got it. Yeah. It's not a swarm. It's (00:14:58) It's the problem is it's already been (00:14:59) established, right? That these laws have (00:15:01) been established. The power has been (00:15:02) given to these people. The money has (00:15:05) started flowing and it's been flowing (00:15:06) for a long time now. And this is the the (00:15:09) issue with starting something that you (00:15:11) can't stop. Well, you can stop it. You (00:15:13) can stop and you got to stop it. Okay. (00:15:15) But if you do stop it, all these people (00:15:17) are going to throw all their money at (00:15:19) stopping you from stopping it. Correct. (00:15:22) Right. Exactly. They're going to come up (00:15:24) with the best commercials with American (00:15:26) flags. This country is all about (00:15:28) competition and freedom. You got it. the (00:15:31) freedom to donate to the party of your (00:15:33) choice. You got it. Good. Stop these (00:15:35) comments. Stop. You're writing their ass (00:15:37) for them. They're gonna they're gonna (00:15:38) pick it up (00:15:40) with the American. Yeah, I can write (00:15:42) them. Yeah, we could all right, but but (00:15:44) then we got to take a deep breath and (00:15:46) and figure out where do we go from (00:15:47) there. Now, I wanted to in my I you (00:15:49) know, as you know, I am the longest (00:15:51) serving independent in American history. (00:15:52) Yes, I caucus with the Democrats. I (00:15:54) always have. But y'all can't hear me (00:15:56) defending the Democratic party on this (00:15:57) issue because you're right. Uh during (00:16:00) the election, it wasn't just Musk and (00:16:01) Republicans putting a lot of money into (00:16:03) Trump. It was Democratic billionaires (00:16:05) putting a lot of money into compl and (00:16:06) into other candidates as well. And let (00:16:10) me I mentioned there's a guy named um I (00:16:13) don't even know his first name. Mr. (00:16:14) Massie, does that name ring a bell? (00:16:15) Thomas Massie. Thomas from Kentucky. (00:16:17) Yeah. And this guy as I am is opposed to (00:16:20) this war in in Iran. Just yesterday, (00:16:23) Trump gave a long post about how they're (00:16:26) going to primary this guy. And it what (00:16:29) bothers me is you would hope that there (00:16:31) would be respect enough for members of (00:16:33) Congress that you could vote your own (00:16:35) conscience. You could, you know, (00:16:37) represent your constituency. Every (00:16:39) district is different in America. But (00:16:41) right now, anybody stands up and say, (00:16:43) well, you know, I disagree with (00:16:44) President Trump. Bam. You are finished. (00:16:46) We're going to primary you. We got all (00:16:48) kinds of money. You're out of there. (00:16:49) That happened to Massie yesterday. But (00:16:51) let me go back to the Democrats and tell (00:16:53) you where the problem. This episode is (00:16:55) brought to you by Squarespace. If you've (00:16:57) got a skill, there's no reason you can't (00:16:59) build a business around it. Squarespace (00:17:01) gives you everything you need to offer (00:17:03) services and get paid all in one place. (00:17:07) Whether you're running consultations, (00:17:09) events, or custom experiences, you can (00:17:12) build a site that looks professional, (00:17:15) add videos, and even put premium content (00:17:18) behind a payw wall. And the best part, (00:17:20) it's all in one place. From invoicing to (00:17:23) SEO tools that help people actually find (00:17:26) your site. Go to squarespace.com/rogan (00:17:31) for a free trial. And when you're ready (00:17:33) to launch, use the code roen to save 10% (00:17:36) off your first purchase of a website or (00:17:39) domain. Can I point something out? Don't (00:17:42) you think that there's a striand effect (00:17:43) to that? Don't you think that there's a (00:17:45) blowback for for that kind of thing when (00:17:48) people recognize that this guy should be (00:17:51) allowed to have his own opinions and (00:17:52) should be and make some reasonable (00:17:54) points and that people are going to (00:17:56) reject this idea maybe and that it's (00:17:58) it's not as simple as I think the whole (00:18:02) uh MAGA thing right now is very divided (00:18:05) particularly because one of the things (00:18:07) they voted for was no war well now it (00:18:10) seems like we're in a war right so that (00:18:13) and it's quick. We're 6 months in and (00:18:15) that's already popped off. And then (00:18:17) people are very concerned with now what (00:18:20) happens to our troops overseas that are (00:18:22) in these bases that are in vulnerable (00:18:24) positions and what happens with I mean (00:18:28) there's supposedly (00:18:30) documented terror cells that got in (00:18:33) through the open border over the last (00:18:35) four years. So what happens now in (00:18:37) America? What happens on American soil? (00:18:38) Right. No, I mean I agree with those. (00:18:41) When a guy like Thomas Massie steps up (00:18:43) and says something, you're he's going to (00:18:45) have a lot more support as well. (00:18:49) The answer is yes. And my only point is (00:18:51) he has a right. Yes. You know, somebody (00:18:53) else says, "Hey, I think the war is a (00:18:55) great idea." Fine. That's your view. You (00:18:56) got to go back. But what bothers me is (00:18:58) that if anybody stands up the next day, (00:19:01) we're going to primary. You're out of (00:19:02) here, man. And that's the Republicans. (00:19:04) Let me talk about the Democrats for a (00:19:06) moment, okay? And I I don't even know (00:19:07) your views on this, so you may disagree (00:19:09) with me. (00:19:11) You know, Israel was attacked by Hamas, (00:19:13) and Hamas is a terrible terrorist (00:19:15) organization. They killed 1,200 people, (00:19:17) which in a small country like Israel is (00:19:19) a lot of people. Terrible, terrible (00:19:20) attack. It's a war crime. Israel had a (00:19:23) right, in my view, to defend itself. But (00:19:26) the Netanyahu government did not have a (00:19:29) right to kill 52,000 (00:19:33) people in Gaza. wound over uh well over (00:19:37) a hundred thousand. And right now, as we (00:19:39) speak, Joe, children are starving to (00:19:41) death because of Israel's blockades. (00:19:44) Yeah. Yeah. Starving to death. And I (00:19:47) brought forth uh two resolutions uh (00:19:50) which basically were very simple and it (00:19:53) said uh no more US military aid uh to uh (00:19:57) Israel under these conditions. One vote (00:20:00) got 15 votes in the Senate. The other (00:20:02) one got 16. (00:20:04) Do you think that members of the Senate (00:20:08) do not know what's going on in Gaza? The (00:20:09) kids are starving to death. The innocent (00:20:12) people are being shot down right and (00:20:13) left. They know it. Why do you think I (00:20:15) couldn't get more votes? (00:20:17) They wouldn't vote against Israel. (00:20:19) Right. It's political suicide. Ah, now (00:20:21) you're talking, right? All right. So, in (00:20:23) the Republican side, you have moneyed (00:20:26) insurance saying, you speak up against (00:20:27) Trump, you're out of here. In the (00:20:28) democratic side, you speak up against (00:20:31) the Netanyahu government, you're out of (00:20:32) here as well. And they have been (00:20:34) successful. You have super PACs like (00:20:36) Apac spending a fortune. You stand and (00:20:39) they have already knocked off a number (00:20:40) of members of Cong good members of (00:20:42) Congress and they will do it again. So (00:20:44) all I'm saying is you got a corrupt (00:20:46) campaign finance system on both sides (00:20:50) which is rejecting the will of the (00:20:53) American people and end up supporting (00:20:55) powerful special interests. And if we do (00:20:58) not get a handle on that issue, I worry (00:21:01) very much about the future of American (00:21:02) democracy. Are you going to run for (00:21:04) president again? I am 83 years of age. (00:21:08) That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Well, you (00:21:09) know, I'm not sure the American people (00:21:11) will be enthusiastic on somebody's still (00:21:13) very with it. Thank you. You are. Well, (00:21:17) you know, I mean, you're a couple years (00:21:19) older than Biden. Yeah. Right. Think of (00:21:21) that. Yeah. You could be off a lot (00:21:23) worse. Yes. Yes. Yeah. All right. (00:21:27) Um, so, uh, we have (00:21:32) been running around the country doing (00:21:34) what we call a fighting oligarchy tour, (00:21:37) which is take why I'm here in Texas. We (00:21:39) were in Fort Worth last night. Had a (00:21:40) good turnout. (00:21:42) And I think, interestingly enough, Joe, (00:21:45) it's not most of the people. We know the (00:21:46) people who come out to our rallies. You (00:21:48) know, we have a big list of millions of (00:21:50) people, but a lot of people are coming (00:21:52) to our rallies that we don't know. And I (00:21:53) think we know that some of them are (00:21:55) Republicans and some of them are (00:21:56) independents. Many of them are (00:21:57) independents because I think across the (00:22:00) board uh there is growing (00:22:02) dissatisfaction with the current (00:22:04) politics in America both parties (00:22:08) and people want a new vision for America (00:22:11) which is also something we don't talk a (00:22:13) whole lot about. So you know the issues (00:22:16) that we talk about is in the richest (00:22:18) country on earth (00:22:21) why don't we have the best health care (00:22:22) system in the world why do we have 85 (00:22:24) million people who are uninsured or (00:22:26) uninsured and as you were mentioning a (00:22:27) moment ago I mean he deals with the (00:22:29) insurance companies and the drug (00:22:31) companies (00:22:32) and the function of the current health (00:22:34) care system is to make these guys very (00:22:36) rich and and it works they make zillions (00:22:38) of dollars and every place you go in my (00:22:42) state the cost of healthcare has gone up (00:22:43) this year like 1015 15% people can't (00:22:45) afford it. Uh and we lose thousands of (00:22:50) people every year. People get sick, they (00:22:52) can't afford to go to the doctor, they (00:22:53) die. (00:22:55) Uh so, you know, one of the fights that (00:22:58) I hope we can win is to have the United (00:23:01) States join every other major country on (00:23:03) earth and guarantee healthcare to all (00:23:05) people uh as a human right. (00:23:08) Well, we've talked about that a lot on (00:23:10) this show that if you view this country (00:23:12) as a community, the most important thing (00:23:14) is to protect the most vulnerable (00:23:16) members of your community. Period. (00:23:18) Right. I agree. And if we we spend (00:23:22) insane amounts of money on all sorts of (00:23:24) things that people don't agree with, and (00:23:26) I think generally most people would (00:23:27) agree on some sort of a national (00:23:29) healthare system. They do. Most people (00:23:32) like there there's there's concepts of (00:23:34) socialism that everyone agrees with. One (00:23:36) of them is the fire department. Right. (00:23:38) Right. Everyone thinks that everyone, (00:23:41) every citizen should have access, the (00:23:43) same equal access to the fire (00:23:45) department. And we all pay into that. (00:23:47) That's right. And we all believe in (00:23:50) education. We all believe that there (00:23:52) should be free public education. And (00:23:55) most people believe that the university (00:23:57) system should also be funded. It would (00:23:59) be benefit everyone. You got it. It (00:24:01) would benefit everyone to have more (00:24:02) educated people that are doing better in (00:24:04) the world. You'd have better GDP. you'd (00:24:06) have more more successful people. (00:24:07) Absolutely right. If you want to make (00:24:09) America great again, less losers. How do (00:24:11) you make less losers? Don't stack the (00:24:13) deck against them. You know, one of the (00:24:16) first things that you'd have to do is (00:24:17) figure out why these communities and (00:24:19) these cities have been the exact same (00:24:20) way for decade after decade. Back to Jim (00:24:23) Crow and the red line laws and all these (00:24:26) why is nothing being done to fix that or (00:24:29) to to correct that problem. And it (00:24:31) becomes this political beach ball that (00:24:33) they just bounce around the air at a (00:24:35) concert, you know, and everybody, it's (00:24:37) like there's certain things that just (00:24:38) keep coming up that make you just just (00:24:40) go, how are we still talking about gay (00:24:42) marriage? How how is that still coming (00:24:44) up? And it's like poof, throw it up in (00:24:46) the air. All right, let me get back to (00:24:47) that. But I want to say there's a bunch (00:24:49) of these things, right? All right. The (00:24:50) first point you made, you want to make (00:24:52) America great, right? Have the best (00:24:54) losers have have the best educated (00:24:55) workforce in the world. How's that (00:24:57) radical idea? I don't think so. Right. (00:24:59) You're absolutely right. better (00:25:00) education. You live longer when you have (00:25:02) better education, etc., etc., right? All (00:25:04) right. So, what does that mean? It means (00:25:08) right now, you know, I talk to (00:25:10) psychologists all the time because you (00:25:12) do. Yeah, I do. Because I am uh I was (00:25:15) the chairman now what call the ranking (00:25:16) member of the health education labor (00:25:18) committee. So, you know, we deal with (00:25:19) medical people all the time. Uhhuh. (00:25:21) Wasn't me personally that. No, (00:25:24) that I may need also, but no, I was (00:25:27) talking in a more general sense. Look, (00:25:30) what are the most important years of (00:25:32) human development? You're a human being. (00:25:34) What are the most important? You're a (00:25:35) child. That's right. Yeah. Zero to four. (00:25:36) How's our child care system doing? Yeah. (00:25:38) Not so good. It's a disaster. So, you (00:25:41) got (00:25:42) a rational society says, okay, the kids (00:25:46) are the future of America. Right. You (00:25:48) talked about the sense of being a (00:25:49) community. All right. So, if I love this (00:25:51) country and I want this country to do (00:25:53) well into the future, I have to worry (00:25:54) about the children. Correct. Right. (00:25:56) Absolutely. (00:25:58) right now for economic reasons. When I (00:26:00) was a kid, by the way, and this shock (00:26:02) some of your younger listeners here, (00:26:05) there was one worker in a family could (00:26:08) actually bring home the bacon and pay (00:26:10) the bills. Yeah. Back in the old days. (00:26:12) Back in the old days. Yeah, man. So, I (00:26:15) grew up in a workingass family. We (00:26:16) didn't have any money. My dad went out (00:26:18) to work. Mom stayed home and that was (00:26:19) it. Yeah. Um made healthier people too (00:26:23) that way. Yeah, it did. I think in many (00:26:26) respects it did. Well, something (00:26:28) happened where they sort of devalued uh (00:26:31) the woman's role as a mother and by (00:26:34) convincing them that they have to be a (00:26:36) part of the workforce. I think that's (00:26:38) part of it. I think the other half is (00:26:39) women legitimately wanted, you know, (00:26:41) careers as well. And the other thing (00:26:43) that happened maybe most significantly (00:26:45) is you needed to stay alive, two (00:26:47) breadwinners to stay alive. Yeah, that's (00:26:49) the problem. The real problem was (00:26:51) financially it just seemed so difficult (00:26:54) for one person to pay for everything. (00:26:56) The only way to do it was to have both (00:26:58) parents working. You know, I was (00:26:59) thinking I grew up in Brooklyn uh before (00:27:01) I moved to Vermont and uh we lived in a (00:27:03) rent control apartment (00:27:06) and I was doing the arithmetic. My dad (00:27:08) didn't make much money, but we didn't (00:27:10) pay much in rent. And I I couldn't quite (00:27:12) remember, you know, his what his salary (00:27:14) was and all that, but my guess is we (00:27:16) paid, is I recall, talk to my brother (00:27:18) about this, about 18% of my dad's salary (00:27:22) for rent. 18%. Ain't nobody in America (00:27:26) today who's paid 18%. You know what I (00:27:28) mean, right? That's why you need two (00:27:30) bread wins because you're paying 40% (00:27:32) 50%. Right. Yeah. But getting back to (00:27:35) this issue of education, which I think (00:27:36) is key, if you were rationally thinking (00:27:40) about the future of America, if you (00:27:42) loved America, as we all do, you're (00:27:44) going to have the best child care system (00:27:46) in the world, so the kids will do well (00:27:48) in school. Right now in child care, you (00:27:50) got workers out there making 15 bucks an (00:27:52) hour. (00:27:54) And you have families that cannot afford (00:27:56) childare. My state, I don't know, it's (00:27:58) about $20,000 a year to send your kid to (00:28:00) ch childare. So you're making 50,000 a (00:28:02) year. How do you pay that? 60, you can (00:28:04) do that. And then education. You got (00:28:06) kids who want an education. They want to (00:28:08) go to college. They want to go to trade (00:28:10) school. We desperately need. Here's (00:28:12) something that really drives me a little (00:28:13) bit nuts. (00:28:16) In America today, Joe, not only is our (00:28:18) health care system failing because it's (00:28:19) based on greed, not on need, but we need (00:28:24) more doctors. All right. All over the (00:28:27) country, people have to wait, you know, (00:28:29) sometimes months to get to a doctor's (00:28:31) office. We have a massive nursing (00:28:34) shortage. We need more dentists. Big (00:28:37) problem in dentistry. We need more (00:28:39) mental health counselors. We need more (00:28:41) pharmacists. (00:28:44) How come in the richest country in the (00:28:46) world, we don't have enough doctors and (00:28:47) nurses? Because it's very difficult to (00:28:50) do. It's very difficult to become a (00:28:51) doctor and the the bills that you have (00:28:54) from education are overwhelming. All (00:28:56) right. You want to go to, let's just say (00:28:58) tomorrow you announce to the world, you (00:29:00) give it up this podcast, you want to go (00:29:02) to medical school. All right. You got (00:29:04) it? Yeah. (00:29:06) You know how much if you don't have any (00:29:08) money, do you know how much you're going (00:29:08) to graduate medical school in debt? (00:29:11) Probably quarter million dollars easy. (00:29:12) Double that. Really? Yeah. I I'm not (00:29:15) Yeah. Obviously, it varies per person. (00:29:17) But it is not unusual for guys, you (00:29:19) know, people workingass homes go to (00:29:21) medicals come out $500,000 in debt. (00:29:24) nurses. I don't know$1 $150,000 a day. (00:29:27) That is insane. It's insane. All right. (00:29:30) Yeah. We need more doctors. So, I should (00:29:32) I want to encourage you, Joe. I want you (00:29:33) to go to medical school. Hey, good news. (00:29:35) We're paying your tuition. Da da da. And (00:29:37) we need you out there as soon as we can (00:29:39) get you. Why wouldn't that be (00:29:40) subsidized? Of course, you should (00:29:41) subsidize it, right? Of course. Yeah. (00:29:44) But there's there's (00:29:47) there's so many different What would you (00:29:48) have done? Like imagine if you hadn't (00:29:51) gotten derailed and they hadn't uh (00:29:53) conspired against you and you actually (00:29:55) became the Democratic candidate for (00:29:57) president and you won. What would you (00:29:58) have done differently? (00:30:03) Okay. How many hours we have? Look at (00:30:05) all the time in the world. Bernie, I (00:30:07) know. (00:30:09) What would you have done first day in (00:30:11) office? Well, it's not just the first (00:30:13) day in office. I would have dealt with (00:30:14) this campaign finance reform issue. Uh, (00:30:16) and there are ways that you can get (00:30:18) around that Supreme Court decision. (00:30:20) How do you do that? Uh, you move toward (00:30:24) public funding of elections, which says (00:30:28) that Joe, you want to run against me? (00:30:30) That's great. Uh, but you're not going (00:30:33) to get super PAC money. Uh, we're going (00:30:35) to publicly fund you. You know, you you (00:30:38) uh get 1500 signatures that says you're (00:30:41) a serious candidate. You'll get a (00:30:43) certain amount of money to run for (00:30:44) office. So you funded by the government. (00:30:47) Yes. Absolutely. Rather than so someone (00:30:48) running for president funded by the (00:30:51) current president (00:30:54) well not the current president (00:30:56) and people say oh taxpayer dollars are (00:30:58) going to but that makes a lot more sense (00:31:00) than having billionaires fund elections (00:31:02) which is what you got right now. So (00:31:03) that's number one. So you think there (00:31:04) should be when you get a certain number (00:31:06) you just get a certain allotted amount (00:31:08) of money that you could use for your (00:31:09) campaign and everybody gets the same (00:31:10) amount that exists in some places right (00:31:12) now. Does it where? Yeah. In New York (00:31:13) City right now. Oh, in New York City and (00:31:15) other places as well. So, if you agree, (00:31:18) you know, you're gonna raise (00:31:21) you you're not going to raise private (00:31:23) money. You go the public route. Uh it (00:31:25) exists in a number of communities and I (00:31:26) think that is Did you watch the New York (00:31:27) City uh debates, the mayor? I heard I'm (00:31:30) in I got involved and I'm supporting uh (00:31:33) Mr. um Menani. A lot of people are well, (00:31:36) especially after that debate, right? It (00:31:38) seems like everybody else was (00:31:40) essentially saying, "Ah, I've been to (00:31:41) Israel more than you've been to Israel. (00:31:44) I'm going to go to Israel before you do. (00:31:45) Right. They think they're campaigning to (00:31:47) be foreign, you know, minister for (00:31:48) Israel or something. Uh but talk about (00:31:51) money and politics. Yes. Just look at (00:31:53) New York City right now. There's the (00:31:54) election tomorrow, I think. Right. I (00:31:56) think it's tomorrow. What's Monday? (00:31:58) Today, tomorrow's Tuesday, right? Yes. (00:31:59) That's the election. (00:32:01) They're spending a huge amount of money. (00:32:04) You know, the dem these are Democratic (00:32:06) or some cases. Who's in the lead right (00:32:07) now? (00:32:08) Uh polls say Cuomo by a little bit, but (00:32:11) I think uh Zoron has a lot of momentum. (00:32:15) We'll see. Polls are weird in a race (00:32:17) like that. Yes. Well, they're weird in (00:32:19) every race. They were wrong with Hillary (00:32:21) in 2020 or uh in uh 2016 rather. They (00:32:25) were wrong in 2024 (00:32:28) with Harris and Trump. Like I don't (00:32:30) understand polls cuz I just I don't I (00:32:34) have a feeling that the majority of them (00:32:36) are inaccurate. Well, I think they are (00:32:39) increasing I I don't know the answer to (00:32:41) your question. The pollsters would argue (00:32:42) that's not the case, but I think you got (00:32:44) a lot of folks who are not all that (00:32:47) enthusiastic about honestly giving (00:32:50) honest answers to a pollster. (00:32:51) Absolutely. Yeah, that's true, too. (00:32:53) Yeah. And that's part of the problem, (00:32:55) right? All right. But you ask me on my (00:32:57) first day as president. Well, they have (00:32:58) you drop in, say hello. Hi, have a cup (00:33:00) of coffee. All right. All right. Good. (00:33:02) And and then I I think we'd (00:33:06) declare something like our health care (00:33:08) system is an emergency and figure out (00:33:11) ways that we can do what every other (00:33:13) major country on earth does, and that is (00:33:15) guarantee healthcare to all people. So, (00:33:16) one of the things you do, you say, (00:33:17) "Okay, we need tens of thousands of more (00:33:20) doctors and hundreds of thousands of (00:33:22) more nurses and dentists and so forth (00:33:24) and so on, and we're going to move (00:33:26) aggressively to make sure that in (00:33:29) America, everybody in this country has (00:33:31) healthcare as a human right." So, I (00:33:33) think that's number one. Number two, uh, (00:33:36) at a time of massive income and wealth (00:33:39) inequality, (00:33:41) uh, you don't give tax breaks to (00:33:42) billionaires. You demand that they start (00:33:44) paying their fair share of taxes. And (00:33:46) one of the problems that we have, it's (00:33:48) not just an American issue, it's a (00:33:49) global issue. A lot of these (00:33:50) zillionaires are hiding their money in (00:33:52) tax havens in the Cayman Islands and (00:33:54) elsewhere. And that's an international (00:33:56) issue. But I think we have to have a (00:33:57) fair tax tax system which says that (00:33:59) individuals and wealthy and and (00:34:01) corporations that are making a whole lot (00:34:03) of money are start paying their fair (00:34:05) share of taxes. What is their fair (00:34:07) share? I don't know. I mean, you know, (00:34:09) is under Eisenhower, the very rich paid (00:34:12) at their upper levels 90%, you know, but (00:34:16) let me be very honest with you, Joe, on (00:34:17) this one. 90% is kind of crazy, though, (00:34:19) right? No, not that's not across that's (00:34:20) just for the, you know, your billionth (00:34:22) dollar. You know what I mean? It's not (00:34:23) your your first dollar. It's not. So, if (00:34:25) you make a billion, you pay 900 million. (00:34:28) No, no, no, no, no. That's not what it (00:34:30) means. It means on your $900 million, (00:34:32) you're going to pay 90%. Okay. All (00:34:35) right. But you know the other thing that (00:34:39) uh (00:34:40) I would do and you look uh you got to (00:34:43) deal with this climate change issue and (00:34:45) I know that you know there are some (00:34:47) people who think climate change is a (00:34:48) hoax. It ain't a hoax. Uh, I think the (00:34:52) last 10 years have been the warmest on (00:34:55) record and we can create millions of (00:34:57) goodaying jobs transforming our energy (00:34:59) system away from fossil fuel to energy (00:35:02) efficiency to solar to wind and other (00:35:04) sustainable energies. This episode is (00:35:06) brought to you by Paleo Valley. 100% (00:35:08) grass-fed beef sticks. I live a super (00:35:11) busy lifestyle. 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I think (00:35:55) the climate change issue is very (00:35:56) complicated and I think uh did you see (00:35:59) the Washington Post uh piece that they (00:36:01) wrote where they did this long-term (00:36:05) view. First of all, the the reality is (00:36:07) that the Earth's temperature has never (00:36:08) been static, right? We could both agree (00:36:10) on that. It's always been up and down. (00:36:12) There's been ice ages and heat waves. (00:36:14) And then the Washington Post looked at (00:36:16) it. What was the time period that they (00:36:17) looked at that essentially they found (00:36:20) that we're in a cooling period that the (00:36:23) Earth over the past X amount of years (00:36:26) and this was like a very inconvenient (00:36:29) discovery but they had to report the (00:36:31) data and kudos to them for doing that. (00:36:33) Scientists have captured the Earth's (00:36:34) climate change over the last 485 million (00:36:36) years. Here's a surprising place we (00:36:38) stand now. So look at the far end of (00:36:41) that graph and you see we're in a (00:36:43) cooling period. (00:36:45) Well, I'm not sure. No, I didn't read (00:36:47) that article, but I, you know, the (00:36:50) scientists who are out there, I think I (00:36:52) know, but there's a lot of money (00:36:53) involved in that, too, Bernie. That's (00:36:54) part of the problem. There's a lot of (00:36:55) money involved in this this whole (00:36:57) climate change emergency issue, and (00:36:59) there's a lot of control, and that's uh (00:37:01) that's a big part of this problem. Not (00:37:03) only that, if we're just talking about (00:37:05) primarily carbon and carbon footprint, (00:37:08) what are we going to do about China? (00:37:09) Because China and Absolutely. China is (00:37:11) like what percentage of they are the (00:37:13) major they are the major uh poller right (00:37:17) now in terms of carbon we're number two (00:37:19) we used to be one they are number one (00:37:20) right now I think they have an enormous (00:37:22) percent of global I think it's they're (00:37:26) number one I don't know what the percent (00:37:29) this is it's not an American issue it is (00:37:31) a global issue and all I can tell you is (00:37:34) that we are in my view going to see more (00:37:37) extreme weather disturbances (00:37:40) uh in in the coming years than we have (00:37:41) ever and we're seeing them right now. We (00:37:43) are seeing right but scientists don't (00:37:45) agree. Well, this is where it gets (00:37:47) confusing because scientists that are in (00:37:49) agreement (00:37:51) there's all these entanglements. (00:37:53) Whenever someone's discussing something, (00:37:56) whether it's economics or whether it's (00:37:58) health issues or pharmaceutical drugs, (00:38:00) there's financial entanglements. I think (00:38:02) we both agree with that, right? Yep. And (00:38:04) I think this is part of the issue with (00:38:06) this whole climate change emergency as (00:38:08) well because it's not just that we could (00:38:12) all agree pollution is a major factor. (00:38:14) It's a huge issue in the world today. We (00:38:17) could all agree with that, right? I (00:38:19) think one of the things that we have to (00:38:22) rec recognize is that there's whenever (00:38:24) there's an issue that everyone can agree (00:38:26) on, you're going to have a bunch of (00:38:27) people that capitalize on that issue and (00:38:30) they look to gain (00:38:32) more money. they they they have (00:38:34) financial issues that they they push (00:38:37) forward in order to to capitalize on (00:38:39) this issue, but then also power and (00:38:41) control. These things like they're (00:38:43) trying to institute in the UK where they (00:38:45) have these 15-minute cities this concept (00:38:47) where you're not allowed to travel. (00:38:48) They'll be able to look at your carbon (00:38:50) footprint. It's Yeah. See, that's the (00:38:53) problem that that the problem is giving (00:38:56) people that are in power, these people (00:38:58) that we've all discussed that have so (00:38:59) much money and so much control over our (00:39:01) societies, multinational corporations, (00:39:03) giving them more control over citizens. (00:39:06) And this is a vehicle for that. And this (00:39:08) is what's dangerous about this whole (00:39:10) climate change emergency because it (00:39:12) allows these [ __ ] creeps that have (00:39:14) been controlling people and controlling (00:39:16) what you do and what you say and how you (00:39:18) spend your money when with people that (00:39:20) are already living checkto check. and (00:39:21) you put additional constraints on them (00:39:23) and you make them even more scared. And (00:39:25) then you put additional measures where (00:39:27) you can look at their carbon footprint. (00:39:30) You can look at the amount they travel. (00:39:32) What do you know put a carbon tax on (00:39:34) these people? Let's figure out how to (00:39:35) extract more money from them. That's (00:39:38) what bothers me about this climate (00:39:39) change emergency. Not not that we we can (00:39:42) all agree pollution is a terrible thing. (00:39:45) Everyone should agree to that. the the (00:39:47) beautiful earth that sustains us and all (00:39:49) life on this planet is being poisoned as (00:39:52) we speak. We're killing all the fish in (00:39:54) the ocean and sucking them out in giant (00:39:56) numbers. 94% of all the big fish that (00:39:59) are in the ocean are gone over the last, (00:40:02) you know, whatever it is. When you go to (00:40:03) war against nature, you lose. Yeah. Cuz (00:40:06) you're part of nature. Exactly. Right. (00:40:08) But we're worshiping the almighty dollar (00:40:10) above the mother. You know, you asked me (00:40:12) when I ran for president. One of the (00:40:13) interest it's, you know, it's something (00:40:15) else to run for president because you (00:40:17) get around, you meet all kinds of people (00:40:18) and you learn all kinds of things. And (00:40:21) one of the things that I did, we went to (00:40:23) a lot of uh we met with a lot of Native (00:40:25) Americans. (00:40:27) And one of the reasons is, you know, (00:40:29) their tradition was going from way back, (00:40:34) respect for nature. That they understood (00:40:36) back way back when that you kill off all (00:40:38) of the buffalo, you ain't going to have (00:40:39) nothing to eat. Right. Right. They (00:40:41) understood that. And you understand that (00:40:43) you live in harmony with nature, which (00:40:44) is I think what you're talking about. (00:40:46) Absolutely. And if you lose that (00:40:47) harmony, I worry about the future of (00:40:51) humanity in in which is the problem with (00:40:53) financial competitiveness. When you put (00:40:55) the almighty dollar above all else, (00:40:58) that's right. Then all you think about (00:40:59) and you're only alive for a hundred (00:41:00) years. So it's just hit the gas. Hit the (00:41:02) gas for a hundred years. And who gives a (00:41:04) [ __ ] what happens after I'm gone? I'm (00:41:06) gonna die with the most toys. Yay. I win (00:41:08) in the dirt. That's exactly right. Yeah. (00:41:10) And that is which takes us to another (00:41:12) issue. Okay. And that is artificial (00:41:16) intelligence and robotics. Automation. (00:41:19) Automation. Yeah. Okay. So giant issue, (00:41:21) huge issue. All right. So let's back it (00:41:23) up. (00:41:26) Um, (00:41:27) Americans (00:41:29) are angry (00:41:31) and one of the reasons they are angry (00:41:34) is that over the last uh, just give you (00:41:38) one fact here. Last 52 years, you and I (00:41:42) understand, everybody in the world (00:41:43) understands there've been a huge (00:41:44) explosion in technology. Correct? What (00:41:47) we're doing today never could have (00:41:48) happened 50 years ago. (00:41:51) Factories far more automated, offices (00:41:53) far more automated. I became mayor of (00:41:55) Burlington, Vermont in 1981. There was (00:41:58) not a computer in the building. Okay, so (00:42:01) that's by the way, great town. It is a (00:42:03) great town. Uh, in any case, an (00:42:06) explosion of technology, significant (00:42:09) increase in worker productivity, right? (00:42:12) We're talking to millions of people now. (00:42:13) Never could have happened before, right? (00:42:15) That's true. Workers are producing a lot (00:42:17) more. (00:42:18) Tell me, how are real inflation (00:42:20) accounted for wages been over the last (00:42:22) 52 years with all of that increase in (00:42:25) worker productivity? Workers doing a lot (00:42:26) better? Not so good. Not so good. No. In (00:42:29) fact, there are studies out there that (00:42:30) suggest in real inflation accounted for (00:42:32) dollars, wages are actually lower now (00:42:35) than they were 52 years ago. Okay? And (00:42:37) during that same period is a massive (00:42:39) transfer of wealth from the bottom 90% (00:42:41) to the top 1%. So that's what technology (00:42:44) has done over the last 50 years. That is (00:42:46) not I there was a study I don't know if (00:42:48) you saw this blew me away. I can't (00:42:50) remember who did it. Kaiser some (00:42:52) reputable guy people did it. This is (00:42:55) what they said. They do a poll to the (00:42:57) American people and they say uh (00:42:59) Americans (00:43:00) do you think you are better off today (00:43:04) than somebody in your situation you know (00:43:06) middle class up whatever you may be was (00:43:10) uh 40 years ago. Okay. Are you better (00:43:13) off today than somebody in your (00:43:15) circumstance would have been 40 years (00:43:17) ago? What was the answer? What do you (00:43:19) think? Yeah. And what the answer was, (00:43:22) and this is, and we got to deal with (00:43:24) this one. This is big. The answer was, (00:43:26) you know, there were a number of people (00:43:27) say, "Hey, look, I got a cell phone. (00:43:28) It's great. I got a big screen TV. It's (00:43:31) great. I can fly all over the world. (00:43:33) It's great. A lot. I get sick. I get (00:43:35) treatment now that I never could have (00:43:36) had 40 years ago." Right? Those are (00:43:38) facts. All really positive developments. (00:43:40) But on average, most people said, (00:43:44) I I I think the situation is worse today (00:43:47) than it was 40 years ago. And that is (00:43:49) what we got to deal with. So you can (00:43:50) have all the technology in the world. (00:43:52) What the hell does it mean if your life (00:43:54) is not improving? In fact, in many ways (00:43:56) getting worse. Yeah. Well, I again, (00:43:59) we'll go back to polls again because I I (00:44:01) don't necessarily believe that polls are (00:44:03) totally accurate. But I I do think that (00:44:06) the the the issue with it being (00:44:09) virtually impossible for one person to (00:44:12) sustain the entire family these days, (00:44:14) one worker, the father or the mother, (00:44:16) whoever it is to sustain the entire (00:44:18) that's a that's a giant issue. All these (00:44:20) issues uh when it comes to labor, when (00:44:24) it comes to uh minimum wage, I think you (00:44:27) and I are in agreement of all the on all (00:44:29) these. I think uh the minimum wage in (00:44:31) this country is ridiculous. I mean to (00:44:33) $7. What? It's insane. It's insane. How (00:44:36) do you live off $7? You go to Jimmy (00:44:38) John's, you get a sub. How much is a (00:44:39) sub? How much is a sub like a big sub at (00:44:42) Jimmy John's? Some guy was just uh did a (00:44:45) Tik Tok video where he's like they're (00:44:48) trying to say that minimum wage $15 is (00:44:51) too much. I think he had a sub that he (00:44:52) bought for 25 bucks. So imagine that's (00:44:55) your lunch. So imagine you have to work (00:44:59) three and a half hours (00:45:02) just to pay for a sandwich. Imagine how (00:45:05) insane that is. It's insane. That's (00:45:06) insane. Like how do you eat? How do you (00:45:08) how do you eat dinner? How do you eat (00:45:10) lunch? How do you eat breakfast? I have (00:45:12) talked to people who make 10 12 bucks an (00:45:15) hour trying to raise a kid. Jesus. (00:45:17) That's right. Yeah. Well, the the (00:45:19) argument against that is, hey, these are (00:45:21) entrylevel jobs that are supposed to be (00:45:23) for kids. No, it's and that's factually (00:45:24) incorrect. Yeah, of course. It's true to (00:45:26) some degree. To some degree, but if you (00:45:28) have grown adults that are working those (00:45:30) jobs now, it becomes disgusting. That's (00:45:32) right. That's exactly right. Especially (00:45:34) when you're dealing with an enormous (00:45:35) corporation. You got it right. So, we (00:45:37) put a lot of pressure. You know, we, you (00:45:39) know, are trying to raise the minimum (00:45:40) wage, federal minimum wage to 17 bucks (00:45:42) an hour. That's that's a reasonable (00:45:44) amount of money. You know, I mean, it's (00:45:46) still it's not it's going to be real (00:45:48) difficult to live off of 17 bucks an (00:45:50) hour, but at least That's right. At (00:45:52) least you get a sandwich in under two (00:45:54) hours worth of work. (00:45:55) There you go. All right. But I want to (00:45:56) get back to this issue because it's one (00:45:58) that we don't talk about and it gets to (00:46:00) AI. (00:46:03) Why do why do we have what you know some (00:46:06) of these people call an epidemic of (00:46:08) loneliness in America? All right. Yes. (00:46:10) All right. Why are we mental illness (00:46:13) rates are pretty high? Suicide rates are (00:46:15) too high. Too much God drug addiction, (00:46:18) right? Horrible problem all over the (00:46:19) country. Why? (00:46:23) Well, there's a lot of factors. Um, (00:46:26) first of all, there is a there are a lot (00:46:29) of people that are very unhealthy, (00:46:31) physically unhealthy. I think metabolic (00:46:33) health is a gigantic issue in this (00:46:34) country. Yep. Um, there's a a lot of (00:46:37) people in this country that feel (00:46:38) completely disenfranchised and so they (00:46:40) turn inward. Y and then technology (00:46:42) invites them to do that. You get online (00:46:45) and you spend your time staring at a (00:46:47) screen, having communications with (00:46:49) people, arguing on Twitter all day, you (00:46:52) know, changing the flag in your bio from (00:46:54) Ukraine to Palestine, and now you got an (00:46:58) Iranian. You're just like in a constant (00:47:00) state of anxiety and chaos. You're (00:47:02) dealing with the entire problem, the the (00:47:05) problems of the entire world. You're (00:47:07) dealing with 8 billion people's worth of (00:47:09) problems every day. Um, I think that's (00:47:12) unsustainable. And then that's also a (00:47:15) function of technology because this (00:47:17) interaction that we have is (00:47:18) unprecedented. The interaction with the (00:47:20) news, with each other, all this stuff (00:47:22) we're not designed to handle. And it it (00:47:24) gives you massive anxiety particularly (00:47:26) for young people. Uh particularly you (00:47:28) Jonathan Hates written about this with (00:47:30) young girls who have the biggest problem (00:47:32) with social media comparing themselves (00:47:34) to other people. massive increase in (00:47:37) self harm, suicide, suicidal ideiology, (00:47:40) depression, anxiety, all this stuff (00:47:43) accentuated by technology and our (00:47:46) unchecked use of it. I think you hit the (00:47:48) nail on that. And so I think we got to (00:47:50) take a deep breath (00:47:53) and understand (00:47:56) that we got to figure out how we make (00:47:58) technology work to improve human life, (00:48:02) right? Not to hurt. Don't you think this (00:48:04) is the 11th hour? I think it is. Yeah. (00:48:06) This is the the problem with it is like (00:48:09) it's already the the genie out. The (00:48:10) genie's out of the box. There's no (00:48:11) question about it. But, you know, we (00:48:13) can't sit around and just do nothing. (00:48:15) Um, but when it this is the real issue (00:48:18) when it becomes a problem where you have (00:48:20) massive automation of almost all jobs, (00:48:24) which is uh something that especially (00:48:26) when you deal with a corporation that is (00:48:28) entirely based around making the most (00:48:29) amount of money possible. Well, what (00:48:31) better way when you don't have to pay (00:48:32) them anything? You got it. You are. (00:48:34) There are signs. I don't know if you've (00:48:35) seen them. (00:48:37) Signs advertising from from AI (00:48:39) companies. (00:48:40) What was they saying? Don't hire humans. (00:48:43) Something like that. Did you see post (00:48:44) it? That's adorable. Don't hire humans. (00:48:48) That's demonic. It is. Yeah. But also (00:48:52) from the perspective of a corporation (00:48:56) where you deal with human issues, (00:48:58) problems, mistakes, people showing up (00:49:00) late. Why do I need you when I can get a (00:49:02) robot? Exactly. Right. You're not going (00:49:04) to get sick. You know, I can fix you a (00:49:06) lot easier than paying for your (00:49:07) healthcare and so forth and so, right? (00:49:08) So, what do you do? What do you do about (00:49:11) that? So, if you're the president and (00:49:13) President Sanders, we have this issue. (00:49:15) The whole country is going to go (00:49:17) automation. What do we do? All right. (00:49:21) First of all, we make the determination (00:49:24) that we are not going to let a handful (00:49:26) of CEOs make these decisions, that (00:49:28) they're going to be made by the American (00:49:30) people. What does that mean? Bottom (00:49:32) line, it means that technology is going (00:49:35) to work to improve us, not just the (00:49:38) people who own the technology and the (00:49:40) CEOs of large corporations. What does (00:49:41) that mean? All right, for a start, (00:49:45) you are a worker. your worker your (00:49:49) productivity is increasing because we (00:49:51) give you AI. Right. Right. All right. (00:49:54) Instead of throwing you out on the (00:49:56) street, I'm going to reduce your work (00:49:57) week to 32 hours. All right. So, you're (00:50:00) going to have 4 day work week. Exactly. (00:50:02) And by the way, not a radical idea. Not (00:50:04) a radical idea at all. There are (00:50:05) companies around the world that are (00:50:06) doing it with some success. The UAW, the (00:50:09) United Automobile Workers, uh they had a (00:50:12) big strike a year ago, you remember, (00:50:14) against the big three. You remember (00:50:14) that? Mhm. and they won a very good (00:50:17) contract and I'm a big fan of the trade (00:50:19) union movement. I think workers need (00:50:21) that. Um, and one of their demands, (00:50:24) interesting enough, and people thought (00:50:25) that Sean Feain, who's the president of (00:50:27) the union, was crazy, but Sean said, you (00:50:29) know what, we want a 32-hour work week (00:50:31) because our people are producing more. (00:50:33) People thought he was crazy, but the (00:50:34) idea is catching on. So, first thing to (00:50:36) say is, let's use technology to benefit (00:50:41) workers. That means give you more time (00:50:42) with your family, with your friends, you (00:50:45) know, for education, whatever the hell (00:50:46) you want to do. You don't have to work (00:50:47) 40 hours a week anymore. (00:50:51) The second thing I think we have got to (00:50:53) do is take a look, as you just said, you (00:50:55) said it, you know, better than I said (00:50:56) it, is what does it mean that we have so (00:51:00) many young kids living on the internet, (00:51:02) right? All right. Uh there are schools (00:51:05) all over the country now who are getting (00:51:08) cell phones out of schools. I talk to (00:51:10) teachers in Vermont and they say, you (00:51:12) know, kids attention spans now have been (00:51:15) greatly diminished. Yes. You know, uh (00:51:18) how do we deal with that? This (00:51:22) in Vermont again, there was a somebody (00:51:24) told me that there's a teacher now who (00:51:25) does he he demands that the his students (00:51:29) write with a pen in blue books now (00:51:32) because he doesn't trust what they're (00:51:33) sending in that it's not artificial (00:51:35) intelligence. All right. So if I say to (00:51:38) you, all right, Joe, give me tell me (00:51:39) what happened to the American (00:51:40) Revolution. You go to the chat box, you (00:51:42) give me a wonderful essay that you know (00:51:44) nothing about. Right. Right. What does (00:51:46) that mean for your intellectual (00:51:48) development, but all you can do is press (00:51:50) a button and give me an answer. Right. (00:51:52) Unless you've absorbed that information, (00:51:54) unless you have but many kids are not, (00:51:56) and we got to worry about that as well. (00:51:58) So I think we have to take a deep breath (00:52:00) and many of the things what has been the (00:52:02) impact of all this stuff. How do we stop (00:52:04) the negative impacts? How do we go (00:52:07) forward with what is positive? And it is (00:52:09) not easy stuff to be sure. But I just (00:52:12) don't what I worry about right now is I (00:52:15) think artificial intelligence is going (00:52:17) to displace (00:52:19) millions and millions of workers. People (00:52:21) are going to be thrown out on the (00:52:23) street. I think the corporate guys who (00:52:25) are running these companies could care (00:52:26) less about these workers. (00:52:29) Uh I think robotics is going to be (00:52:31) running a lot of the factories in (00:52:32) America. And I think these are issues we (00:52:35) just have got to address in a bold way. (00:52:39) Yes. But how do you do that? And like (00:52:42) you're balancing it out in in one way if (00:52:44) you are a corporation. Like imagine (00:52:47) you're um an automobile manufacturing (00:52:51) corporation. You're Ford. What? And Ford (00:52:54) is struggling right now. There's a a (00:52:56) giant issue with Ford, right? So what (00:52:59) does Ford do if all of a sudden (00:53:01) something comes along that allows them (00:53:03) to be more productive? They more they're (00:53:05) more profitable that these machines can (00:53:08) work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They (00:53:10) don't need time off and you're going to (00:53:12) make a better product. You're going to (00:53:13) make more money for your shareholders. (00:53:15) The corporation succeeds, but you don't (00:53:19) need X amount of workers anymore, right? (00:53:21) What how do you how do you mitigate (00:53:23) this? I mean, that's the right question. (00:53:24) And what do you do? All right. Nobody (00:53:26) asked a simple answer. That's just (00:53:27) talking. Does Ford simply does corporate (00:53:30) America have the right to say to workers (00:53:32) throughout this country, hey, sorry (00:53:35) guys, we don't need you anymore. Have a (00:53:37) nice life. You're out on the streets. (00:53:38) Instead of thinking them as workers, (00:53:40) should we think of them as look, there (00:53:43) are people that make the decisions. (00:53:44) There's the executives. There's the the (00:53:46) corporation itself, but without the (00:53:49) people that worked on those assembly (00:53:51) lines, you have nothing. That's right. (00:53:55) You have nothing. You couldn't have done (00:53:57) any of the things you've done without (00:53:59) those people. But those people are (00:54:01) replaceable because it's skilled labor (00:54:04) that you could teach another person to (00:54:06) do and they're replaceable because (00:54:09) there's plenty of people that want those (00:54:11) jobs and there's a demand. So you file (00:54:13) them in, you file them out, which is why (00:54:15) they developed unions, right? So they (00:54:17) developed unions to keep people from (00:54:19) being exploited, right? And then the (00:54:22) problem becomes the unions get exploited (00:54:24) and then the the unions have a lot of (00:54:25) money and then there's a lot of influ (00:54:27) and then then they decide okay [ __ ] (00:54:28) these unions let's go to Mexico and (00:54:31) these laws that Ross Perau famously (00:54:34) talked about the giant sucking sound (00:54:36) headed south remember that oh I remember (00:54:38) him well boy was he right boy was he (00:54:41) right all right let's get back to this (00:54:42) issue of which what do you do like if (00:54:45) you're you're the president ain't no (00:54:46) easy answers let me let me throw that (00:54:48) out to you I don't have a magical (00:54:50) solution I wish I did. I don't. (00:54:52) I think the first thing you you say, (00:54:54) "All right, I'm Ford. I'm General (00:54:56) Motors. I got all this technology. I can (00:54:58) produce my products much more (00:55:00) efficiently. I don't need workers (00:55:02) anymore." Right. Right. Well, I'm sorry, (00:55:05) Mr. GM, and I'm sorry, Mr. Ford, because (00:55:08) this country is more than just your (00:55:09) profits. We are human beings, and you're (00:55:12) not going to throw people out on the (00:55:13) street, many of whom will have a hard (00:55:15) time getting healthcare, etc., etc. So (00:55:18) the let me reframe the question again of (00:55:20) which admittedly it is complicated. I (00:55:23) don't have the magic answer. How as a (00:55:25) nation, forget Ford, forget General (00:55:27) Motors. How as a nation do we deal with (00:55:30) this exploding technology so that it (00:55:32) benefits all of us and not just Mr. Ford (00:55:36) and Mr. General Motors? That's the (00:55:38) question I think. All right. And it's (00:55:40) going to require radical solutions. So (00:55:42) for a start, it gets back to something (00:55:43) we talked about a little while ago. (00:55:47) If you had health care is a human right, (00:55:51) right? All right. As people in almost (00:55:54) every other wealthy country have and not (00:55:57) attached to your job, that would be a (00:55:59) major step forward, right? Yes. (00:56:01) Absolutely. All right, Joe, you lost (00:56:02) your job, but you know what? Your family (00:56:03) still has healthare. Imagine if you were (00:56:05) a diabetic and now you don't have access (00:56:07) to insulin because now you no longer (00:56:09) Right. Okay. So, this is the way I frame (00:56:12) it. (00:56:13) We are the wealthiest country in the (00:56:14) history of the world right now with all (00:56:16) of this artificial intelligence and (00:56:19) robotics. We are going to be wealthier. (00:56:22) Correct. Correct. All right. So, we're (00:56:24) not in the 1820s where people had to (00:56:26) work 100 hours a week to grow food to (00:56:29) eat. Right. Right. You're not in the (00:56:31) 1920s. You're in 2025. You have all of (00:56:34) this productivity out there. How do we (00:56:36) utilize it to create a decent standard (00:56:40) of living for all people? Let me ask you (00:56:41) this. With all of this technology, can (00:56:43) we wipe out poverty in America? Well, we (00:56:46) should be able to, right? You should be. (00:56:47) Well, we should have been able to do (00:56:48) that a long time ago if that was (00:56:50) something that was politically (00:56:51) motivated, right? If you wanted to do, (00:56:53) but it's easy enough. Profitable. Pardon (00:56:55) me. If it was profitable to wipe out (00:56:57) poverty, which it should be like overall (00:57:00) as a community, like I said, less (00:57:02) losers, higher GP. If we love the (00:57:04) country. Yeah. If you really love (00:57:05) America, you want more people to have a (00:57:07) chance. All right. So, what kind that (00:57:08) All right. Good. I mean I I so the the (00:57:11) and again please this is these are (00:57:13) complicated issues. I surely don't have (00:57:15) all the answers but I think we throw on (00:57:18) the table you got all of this (00:57:19) technology. What is our goal? So all (00:57:20) right our goal is if we're going to (00:57:23) create all of this wealth (00:57:26) that we have a health care system that (00:57:28) guarantees healthcare to all people. And (00:57:29) by the way, we have drug companies whose (00:57:32) function is to come up with cures to (00:57:36) diabetes and dementia and Alzheimer's (00:57:39) and other terrible illnesses rather than (00:57:41) just make huge profits for themselves. (00:57:43) All right. You have a publicly funded (00:57:46) health care system guarantees healthcare (00:57:47) to all people. Just doing that would (00:57:50) lower the stress rate in this country (00:57:52) enormously. Enormously. Okay. Sure. (00:57:54) Okay. You got that? We talked a moment (00:57:56) ago about education. I think you and I (00:57:57) agreed. Yes. We want the best (00:57:59) educational system in the world. What (00:58:01) does it mean that all that you don't (00:58:03) have to worry? You're a working dad out (00:58:06) there. You're worried that your kid may (00:58:08) have a lower standard of living than (00:58:09) your kid can't afford to go to college. (00:58:11) You don't want your kid leaving school (00:58:12) $50,000 a day. We say education is a (00:58:15) human right. God, you know, you (00:58:17) mentioned public education a while ago. (00:58:19) That didn't happen by accident. You (00:58:21) know, back in the early 20th century, a (00:58:24) lot of people, working-class people, (00:58:26) fought and said, you know what, we don't (00:58:27) only want, you know, the rich kids to (00:58:29) get a decent education, we want our (00:58:31) kids. And that's how public education (00:58:33) began. Right. Right. So, it said, okay, (00:58:35) everybody in America, you know, state by (00:58:37) state, started in Wisconsin actually, is (00:58:40) going to have public education from (00:58:42) first grade kindergarten to 12th grade. (00:58:45) God didn't create 12th grade as the (00:58:48) limit. Right. Right. All right. You go (00:58:50) to Scandinavia, you go to Germany right (00:58:52) now, you know how much it cost to get a (00:58:53) higher education? How much? Zero. That's (00:58:55) great. Of course it's great because they (00:58:58) make such good cars. Well, it could be. (00:59:02) You know, they want and engineers. (00:59:04) That's right. But the bottom line is (00:59:05) what you said. Yeah. If I want this (00:59:07) country to be productive, right, I want (00:59:09) the best educated workforce. That's not (00:59:11) a debate, right? Unquestionably. All (00:59:13) right. That's how you want your family. (00:59:15) And if the country is a community, the (00:59:17) country is your family. Exactly. Yes. (00:59:19) All right. So, that's what we got to (00:59:21) start thinking about. It's not just what (00:59:23) Mr. Ford and Mr. General Motors and Mr. (00:59:25) Apple want, right? You're right in (00:59:27) saying they're motivated by making (00:59:29) zillions, right? All right. Their (00:59:31) motivation is throw the workers out on (00:59:32) the street, bring in the technology, and (00:59:34) screw the workers. That is not what we (00:59:36) should be doing as a nation. You got to (00:59:38) tell them that. All right. All right. (00:59:39) So, we got to sit there and say, "All (00:59:41) right, all this technology, all right, (00:59:42) we talk about healthcare as a human (00:59:44) right. I think we're talking about (00:59:45) education (00:59:47) uh as a human right, right? I think we (00:59:50) should be saying with all of this (00:59:51) technology, we got to be thinking (00:59:53) seriously about lowering the number of (00:59:55) hours that people work. Yes. You know, (00:59:57) do you know how many people there (00:59:59) zillions of people in this country don't (01:00:00) work 40 hours a week? They're working (01:00:01) 50, 60 hours a week. That's insane. So, (01:00:04) we can say all of this increased worker (01:00:06) productivity. Guess what? You know, I (01:00:08) don't know what the number is. to be (01:00:09) able to work on a 34 hour work 4 day (01:00:11) work week with no loss of pay. Uh I (01:00:15) introduced a bill to do that. I got to (01:00:17) tell you I you know I go to airports I (01:00:18) go around people came up to me people (01:00:20) are stressed out by the amount of hours (01:00:22) they have to work. Absolutely. All (01:00:23) right. So what I'm saying here is let's (01:00:26) take a hard look about how we utilize (01:00:28) this technology to improve life for all (01:00:33) people. Our goal should be, yeah, (01:00:35) instead of bombing Iran, our goal should (01:00:38) be right now, Joe, uh, our life (01:00:41) expectancy in America is lower than it (01:00:43) is in other major countries. You know (01:00:45) that? Yes. Four years younger than four (01:00:47) years shorter lifespans than other (01:00:49) wealthy countries. If you're working (01:00:51) class in America, you live seven years (01:00:54) shorter life than the 1%, which is to me (01:00:57) just outrageous. (01:00:59) All right, so here's the here's the (01:01:00) thing. Instead of bombing Iran, how do (01:01:03) we increase life expectancy so that (01:01:05) we're living the longest lives of many (01:01:07) people on Earth? How's that for a goal? (01:01:09) Well, that's a great goal. And how do (01:01:10) you go about achieving that goal? Well, (01:01:12) healthcare is one. Reducing the work (01:01:14) week is another. Education is all the (01:01:17) things that we've talked about, all the (01:01:18) things we talked about, right? Right. (01:01:20) Will increase life expectancy. But have (01:01:22) a goal out there. Also, taking toxic (01:01:24) food. Exactly. Exactly. You know, I (01:01:27) don't I you know, I don't I've known uh (01:01:31) uh Bobby Kennedy for a long time and you (01:01:34) know, he and I have gone uh in different (01:01:37) directions politically, but his the (01:01:38) point about health, food, food, we spend (01:01:42) the most and we're the sickest. (01:01:43) Absolutely. Absolutely. And food is one (01:01:47) of I when I was chairman of the (01:01:48) committee, we worked very hard to get (01:01:50) serious labeling. You know, some kid (01:01:52) drinks a mom buys a bottle of Coca-Cola (01:01:54) for the kid. There's like what 10 (01:01:56) teaspoons of sugar in that that product. (01:01:58) Yeah. You know, I don't think people (01:02:00) know that and we try to get labeling. (01:02:01) Maybe that will happen now. Uh but (01:02:04) people also weren't aware until like the (01:02:06) last 20 years what the consequences of (01:02:08) that sugar is. That's right. Absolutely. (01:02:10) Also because of money. You got it. I (01:02:12) mean you Yeah. Don't get me going on (01:02:14) that one. I mean I'll get you going. (01:02:17) Come on. All right. You know, you would (01:02:19) think, how hard is it to say if you have (01:02:21) a bottle of soda or you have a food (01:02:24) product, tell people in English what is (01:02:27) in the damn product, right? Right. Do (01:02:29) you think anyone there right now they (01:02:30) have any grams? Do you think anybody in (01:02:33) America knows what the hell a gram is? I (01:02:35) mean, it just that's how ridiculous it (01:02:37) is. So, I want parents to know that if (01:02:41) you know the food that they're serving (01:02:42) their kid could lead to obesity, which (01:02:45) is an epidemic in America, could lead to (01:02:48) diabetes, which is an epidemic, a (01:02:50) terrible illness, costing us hundreds of (01:02:53) billions of dollars. So, you're (01:02:54) absolutely right. Right. All right. And (01:02:56) and then that ties into rebuilding (01:02:58) family-based agriculture in America. (01:03:00) Wouldn't it be nice? Yes. in my state of (01:03:02) Vermont, all over this country, family (01:03:04) farmers are, you know, they're just (01:03:06) being driven off of the land. And that (01:03:08) to me is a real tragedy because, and (01:03:10) again, Vermont is one of the most rural (01:03:12) states in America. (01:03:14) Growing up, if you talk to people who (01:03:16) grew up on farms, they say, you know, (01:03:18) Bernie, that was a pretty good way of (01:03:19) life and we're losing that. So how do (01:03:22) you create an economy in which we once (01:03:24) again (01:03:26) put an emphasis on familybased (01:03:28) agriculture not corporate agriculture (01:03:30) family farmers who are growing good in (01:03:32) many cases organic food for our kids (01:03:34) rather than corporate regenerative (01:03:36) regenerative agriculture like true like (01:03:38) white oaks pastures the way they run it (01:03:41) farms a bunch would that be great? Yes. (01:03:43) All right. Well we'd be a lot healthier (01:03:45) if we ate that food that's for sure but (01:03:47) the problem is people are already (01:03:48) addicted to that other food and this is (01:03:50) the problem with money. These (01:03:51) corporations have engineered these (01:03:53) products and this is these are the same (01:03:55) corporations unfortunately that were in (01:03:58) charge of tobacco. You know, this is (01:04:00) where it gets really weird. They bought (01:04:02) out all the major processed food (01:04:04) corporations and they make this stuff (01:04:07) that's unbelievably addictive because (01:04:09) it's engineered by scientists. We got (01:04:11) the brightest and the best who figured (01:04:13) out what's the best way to get these (01:04:15) people totally addicted to whatever you (01:04:17) know. How sick is that? How pathetic is (01:04:18) that? Pretty sick. Yeah. Yeah. And these (01:04:21) people, they have they have choice. They (01:04:23) could eat whatever they want. They want (01:04:25) to go to the grocery store and eat (01:04:26) tomatoes and have a nice salad. They (01:04:29) can. But shouldn't they also be able to (01:04:31) get Pop-Tarts? Yeah. I look and your (01:04:35) point is interesting. (01:04:37) You remember there's a photograph, a (01:04:39) very famous photograph. (01:04:41) I don't know when it was done. 50s, (01:04:42) maybe 60s, 70s, I don't know, of uh the (01:04:47) tobacco industry executives coming (01:04:49) before Congress and you remember that (01:04:51) photograph? Yes. And and the congressman (01:04:53) said to me, tell me, I I I maybe get (01:04:56) this a little bit wrong. Are you aware (01:04:58) that cigarettes kill people? No. No, (01:05:02) Congressman, we we have no evidence to (01:05:03) that effect. Right. They were lying (01:05:05) through their teeth. Of course. All (01:05:06) right. Yeah. And it's exactly your (01:05:08) analogy is exactly right. uh these food (01:05:12) manufacturers know exactly that they are (01:05:14) causing obesity and god knows what else (01:05:18) in kids leading to diabetes. They know (01:05:20) exactly what they're doing, right? And (01:05:22) they're lying. And they're opposing all (01:05:24) of us who are trying to, among other (01:05:26) things, make our food supply healthier. (01:05:28) Yeah, they are. And this is also a (01:05:31) function of corporate America, right? (01:05:34) This is a function of wanting to do (01:05:36) better in each quarter, you know, having (01:05:38) this endless That's right. endless (01:05:40) growth cycle where they're they're never (01:05:42) sat they never say, "Hey, we make x (01:05:44) amount of money every year. This is (01:05:46) perfect. That's right. Let's uh let's (01:05:48) concentrate on doing better for our (01:05:49) community." And the companies don't even (01:05:50) make that decision that Wall Street (01:05:52) investors make that decision. You got to (01:05:53) make more, right? Because the (01:05:56) shareholders will be like, "There's no (01:05:57) [ __ ] way. You need to make more (01:05:58) money." Exactly. Otherwise, I'm dumping (01:06:00) your stock. Your company's going to go (01:06:01) in the toilet, right? Yeah. So, how I (01:06:04) mean, this is what we have got to deal (01:06:06) with as a nation. Is that acceptable? (01:06:08) All right. Is it acceptable for food (01:06:10) companies to poison our kids? No. All (01:06:12) right. But what are you going to do (01:06:13) about it? (01:06:15) I'm the senator, not you. Right. It's a (01:06:17) good question. Yeah, it's a solid (01:06:18) question. And I think the the things (01:06:20) that Bobby Kennedy is proposing and (01:06:23) implementing, I think are very valuable. (01:06:24) First of all, getting all these (01:06:25) poisonous dyes and all these things that (01:06:27) have been kicked out of all these other (01:06:30) major companies, including Canada. (01:06:32) There's the same factories that make (01:06:34) these food products in America literally (01:06:36) have to make a different version of it (01:06:38) for Canada. And then they're complaining (01:06:40) that they can't do it because (01:06:41) economically it won't be profitable for (01:06:42) them anymore. But you're already making (01:06:44) them. You're making them and you're (01:06:45) shipping them to Canada. My son brought (01:06:47) me back from Canada. Froot Loops. I (01:06:49) think it was Froot Loops actually. They (01:06:51) look kind of plain. They don't have that (01:06:53) bright pop to them that cancer gives (01:06:55) you. You're absolutely all right. I (01:06:57) mean, so I think this is, you know, it (01:06:59) almost gets back to the need to (01:07:01) revitalize American democracy and say to (01:07:04) large corporations, you know what, you (01:07:07) can't poison our children. I don't think (01:07:08) that's a terribly radical concept. You (01:07:11) can make money, fine. Make money, but (01:07:12) don't poison our children. Uh, say to (01:07:16) large corporations, technology is (01:07:17) coming. That's good, but you're not (01:07:19) going to use it just to throw workers (01:07:20) out on the street. But let's go to that, (01:07:22) too, because we kind of glossed over (01:07:23) that. We never got back to it. So (01:07:26) automation comes and one of the things (01:07:28) that Andrew Yang warned us about a long (01:07:30) time ago and back then I I kind of saw (01:07:32) it in the distance. I was like yeah he's (01:07:34) got a real good point about universal (01:07:35) basic income but the the the the speed (01:07:39) in which it's happening I I didn't (01:07:41) anticipate and when it you know we live (01:07:44) in Austin and when you go around Austin (01:07:46) you see these Whimos everywhere. So all (01:07:49) right I'm going to I'm going to plead (01:07:51) ignorance. Tell me what a Whimo Whimo is (01:07:53) a driverless automobile. So, you use a (01:07:56) an app, you call a Whimo. A lot of (01:07:58) people like it because you don't get a (01:07:59) shifty Uber drivers trying to sell you (01:08:01) fentanyl or whatever. Not not saying (01:08:03) that they do that. Uber, don't sue me. (01:08:05) Uh, but then they they're very they're (01:08:09) very good. They don't get in accidents. (01:08:10) They're they follow the speed limit. (01:08:12) They're good about merging. They're good (01:08:14) about pedestrians. They have cameras all (01:08:16) around them spinning. I've seen them. (01:08:18) They were very effective. (01:08:19) And what was really fascinating was (01:08:22) during these uh ICE riots, they were (01:08:24) lighting those things on fire. And I was (01:08:26) like, I disagree with that, but I also (01:08:29) think it's directionally correct. (01:08:32) You know, I mean, that that's your (01:08:34) enemy. Your enemy is automation. The (01:08:37) enemy of the human being, the a human (01:08:40) that lives in this functional society (01:08:43) and everybody has a task and get paid (01:08:45) for the task. Automation's going to take (01:08:48) all that away. So, if you do say this, (01:08:51) okay, we're going to lower your work (01:08:52) week. What if there's no job left for (01:08:54) the human being to do? If the entire (01:08:56) assembly line, we talked about this (01:08:58) about China and some of their coal (01:09:00) factories. Um, there was this video that (01:09:02) I watched of this coal factory in China, (01:09:04) which is entirely automated every step (01:09:07) of the way. The trucks, no human beings (01:09:08) at all. No human beings at all. I mean, (01:09:10) there's probably a few overseers that (01:09:12) make sure that all the systems are (01:09:14) functioning correctly. So you have (01:09:15) software engineers and you know people (01:09:17) that are the repair people, but the (01:09:20) trucks even park themselves next to the (01:09:23) charging station and recharge and then (01:09:26) they're moving 24 hours a day unloading, (01:09:29) documenting where everything is. It's (01:09:31) all in computer databases. It's wild to (01:09:34) watch because there's no people. It's (01:09:36) all just 24 hours a day machines. (01:09:42) What do you do when there's no need for (01:09:44) these people? And what happens even with (01:09:48) universal basic income, what we're (01:09:49) talking about, I support it. I I'm I'm a (01:09:52) big supporter of social safety nets. (01:09:54) Look, when I was a kid, my family was on (01:09:58) welfare (01:09:59) and we were on food stamps, too. Like, (01:10:03) if you don't have that, people go (01:10:05) hungry. like we again if we're going to (01:10:07) support the community, we want people to (01:10:10) be able to survive and be able to work (01:10:12) their way out of that. My family did (01:10:14) work their way out of that. So, it was (01:10:16) cool for me as a child to see my parents (01:10:19) struggling but then succeed and get out (01:10:22) of it. (01:10:24) What worries me is that if all the jobs (01:10:28) are gone and everything gets automated, (01:10:31) even if people have universal basic (01:10:33) income, they don't have meaning. Good. (01:10:36) All right. You're touching on really (01:10:37) deep issues, right? This is the big one (01:10:39) because a lot of people, you know, you (01:10:42) want to get your car fixed, you go to (01:10:43) KC. He's the best. He knows how to fix (01:10:46) your car. Case and work gives, as you've (01:10:48) just said, this the word purpose is an (01:10:51) enormously. (01:10:53) I don't care if you sweep the streets. (01:10:55) People have purpose. They want to do (01:10:56) their job well. It's work is an (01:10:58) important part of our lives. Is it (01:11:00) right? Yes. At the end of the day, it's (01:11:02) your identity a lot of times, right? (01:11:04) Yeah. and you want to be a productive (01:11:06) member of society. I'm contributing, (01:11:08) right? All right. So, you asked the (01:11:12) right question (01:11:14) and I think there and I, you know, we (01:11:16) can just bat around. I mean, I don't (01:11:18) have any, you know, quick answers here, (01:11:19) but I think the good news, you talk (01:11:22) about this coal mining thing and I'm not (01:11:24) a great fan of coal, but you know that (01:11:26) it's automation. People do not have to (01:11:28) do dirty work, dangerous work. Is that (01:11:30) good? Yeah, I guess it's good. But (01:11:33) always we have to be thinking how it (01:11:35) benefits not just the bottom line of a (01:11:37) corporation (01:11:39) but the happiness and well-being of (01:11:42) human beings. So if if what you're (01:11:45) saying is that in years to come a (01:11:48) significant part of work is going to be (01:11:51) done by machinery or by computers (01:11:53) whatever I think that's inevitable. (01:11:54) Okay. Then we have to rethink our own (01:11:58) purpose in life. All right. (01:12:02) uh and it's not sitting around watching (01:12:04) TV 24 hours a day. So I think you raised (01:12:09) the qu I would say the simple answer and (01:12:12) then you got to go a lot further than (01:12:14) that is to say that under those (01:12:17) circumstances of that kind of technology (01:12:19) everybody has at least a decent standard (01:12:21) of living. All right. That people don't (01:12:24) have to worry about, you know, survival. (01:12:26) They don't have to worry about food. (01:12:27) They don't have to worry about increase (01:12:28) profitability of this corporation. (01:12:30) Provide a fund that's a universal basic (01:12:32) income fund. If you're going to replace (01:12:34) all these people with robots, and you're (01:12:36) going to be even more profitable, share (01:12:38) some of that profit, then you'll be more (01:12:41) profitable than if these people just (01:12:42) stayed working doing nothing. Right. (01:12:44) Well, I mean I whether you will be or (01:12:46) not be, I think once the machines are (01:12:48) running everything, they're going to be (01:12:49) running 24 hours a day and you're not (01:12:50) going to have to pay the machines. It's (01:12:52) going to be more profitable, right? Of (01:12:53) course it will be. And we want to, you (01:12:55) know, right now in where is it? Uh jeez, (01:12:58) I think, don't quote me on this, maybe (01:13:00) in Norway, (01:13:02) they have a huge wealth fund which came (01:13:05) from oil. They had publicly owned oil (01:13:08) companies. They made a fortune and they (01:13:11) have like a trillion dollars in their (01:13:12) wealth for a small country, you know. (01:13:14) So, and they have free healthcare, free (01:13:16) college education, affordable housing, (01:13:18) all that stuff. Here it is. Norway is (01:13:20) growing 1.7 trillion dollar empire, uh, (01:13:24) Nor's Bank investment, management, (01:13:26) market value, growth since inception. (01:13:28) That's great. Yeah. And they use that (01:13:31) government pension fund of Norway. There (01:13:32) you go. Well, so yeah. So they use that (01:13:36) those that that wealth fund to provide (01:13:39) probably the highest standard of living (01:13:41) in the world for for people, you know, (01:13:42) free healthcare, education, all that (01:13:44) stuff. But that's what we got to be (01:13:45) talking about here. Use the profits that (01:13:49) come the wealth that's created by this (01:13:51) technology to improve life for all. That (01:13:53) doesn't answer the question that you (01:13:54) raised of meaning. That's right. Yeah. (01:13:56) So what do you do about that? Well, (01:13:59) somebody who's a workaholic, it would be (01:14:00) hard for me, you know, cuz I Are you a (01:14:03) workaholic? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's the (01:14:06) nature of the job. Do you have hobbies? (01:14:08) Yeah. I got seven grandchildren. That's (01:14:10) a hobby. (01:14:13) I used to play ball as a kid. You know, (01:14:15) I was a good basketball player. Well, I (01:14:17) think people can find other things to do (01:14:19) with their time. Like if I never worked (01:14:22) again, I'd probably play pool eight (01:14:23) hours a day because I I really love (01:14:25) playing pool. Yeah. I'd find a thing. (01:14:27) I'd do jiu-jitsu. I'd find a thing that (01:14:30) I find value in. You know, I think (01:14:32) somebody once wrote, you know, you think (01:14:34) about what are the deepest things, (01:14:36) what's the goal in life? So, somebody (01:14:37) says work. And I I believe that I I (01:14:40) think people, you know, one of the sad (01:14:43) things that's happened, you know, we (01:14:45) talked a little while ago about the (01:14:46) decline of you me we mentioned Detroit (01:14:49) and and other communities where people (01:14:51) worked hard, they were proud of what (01:14:53) they produced, right? Yes. They earned a (01:14:55) decent living, maybe they had a union (01:14:56) and so forth and so on. And that a lot (01:14:58) of that is is gone. But all right, so (01:15:01) work, love, you know, we there's a thing (01:15:03) called love, right? Yeah. At the end of (01:15:05) the day, promise people trying to find (01:15:06) that on apps, too. Now, let's get to (01:15:09) that one in a minute. But, you know, to (01:15:11) be human, nobody wants to be alone, (01:15:14) right? Right. Uh, you want to embrace (01:15:17) other people, you know, physically, (01:15:19) sexually, emotionally, just humanly. (01:15:22) Right. Community. That's community. (01:15:23) That's right. That's being human. Yes. (01:15:25) All right. So, you want love and (01:15:28) knowledge. I think you forgot the (01:15:29) knowledge part. You like pool? That's (01:15:31) good. Uh I sadly enough, I have to (01:15:34) confess that when I was in college, I (01:15:36) spent half my life in the library. All (01:15:37) right? You know, so why is that bad? No, (01:15:40) I'm just kidding. But knowledge, sure, (01:15:42) just trying to understand things (01:15:45) and and curiosity. Curiosity. Fantastic. (01:15:48) Travel by God. Yeah. You know, (01:15:50) absolutely. just came back from Ireland. (01:15:52) You know, it's it's fantastic to see the (01:15:54) world and and you know, when we talk (01:15:56) about, you know, one of the things that (01:15:58) I, you know, we didn't talk about Trump (01:15:59) much, but that bothers me is trying to (01:16:02) divide us up. You know, we got to bring (01:16:05) for so many reasons, whether it's all of (01:16:08) these issues that we're talking about (01:16:09) and everything else with pandemics. You (01:16:11) know what? We got to bring the world (01:16:13) together. Yes. Okay. And not hate people (01:16:15) because they're in Canada or they're in (01:16:18) China or Iran. Ridiculous. All right. (01:16:20) And uh that ain't easy. But we have to (01:16:24) when I was mayor way back I did this. (01:16:26) There was when the Soviet Union still (01:16:28) existed. Never forget this. We brought (01:16:30) kids from a city in Russia, Yaruslav, an (01:16:33) old city in Russia. And we brought them (01:16:36) to Vermont and they were kids the the (01:16:38) boys and girls from Russia play kid (01:16:40) around with boys and girls from America. (01:16:42) You look at these kids, they had a great (01:16:44) time. You know, people do not have to (01:16:46) hate each other. It's stupid. It's it's (01:16:49) you don't even know them. Exactly. (01:16:51) That's why you hate them. It's the (01:16:52) dumbest part about it. Yeah. You know (01:16:54) why people hate is based on ignorance, (01:16:57) right? Yeah. And fear and you know (01:17:00) there's a lot of stupidity attached to (01:17:02) it that people exploit. They exploit (01:17:05) that stupidity, you know, and the guy (01:17:07) under the guise of nationalism. Exactly. (01:17:10) Yeah. And I hate that. And by the way, I (01:17:13) don't know that the planet survives if (01:17:14) we no continue in that way. So the goal, (01:17:17) you know, we talk about what's the (01:17:19) greatest fear? The greatest fear is (01:17:21) thermonuclear war, right? Yeah. Well, (01:17:23) pandemics as well, let me tell you, is (01:17:25) CO was not the last one, but you know, (01:17:27) it's Well, the pandemic, the problem (01:17:28) with that is it's engineered like people (01:17:30) actually made that virus and Obama tried (01:17:33) to stop that gain of function [ __ ] back (01:17:35) in 2014. (01:17:37) No, that's a long that's a long (01:17:39) conversation, but you know, should we be (01:17:41) funding that kind of [ __ ] No, we should (01:17:43) not. No, we should not. No. And yet yet (01:17:45) we were. But you're gonna have to bring (01:17:47) the entire world together. You know, it (01:17:50) is (01:17:52) um but I think you know we have we have (01:17:55) to bring the country together first. (01:17:56) That's right. And by the way, and you (01:17:58) know, I've been kind of I've been kind (01:17:59) of negative, but take a deep breath and (01:18:02) we have made some progress in this (01:18:04) country in recent years. If you think (01:18:07) about racial relations, all right, you (01:18:09) know, it wasn't that many decades ago (01:18:11) that some black kid couldn't go to a (01:18:13) movie theater in Mississippi, right? By (01:18:16) the way, I want to tell you that when (01:18:18) people say like, "Why were you a fan of (01:18:20) Bernie Sanders?" I point to a photo of (01:18:22) you getting arrested (01:18:24) at a civil rights (01:18:26) protest in I think it was 63. Sounds (01:18:29) right. Chicago. Yeah, I remember. Yeah. (01:18:32) You've always been at the forefront. you (01:18:34) you haven't changed, you know, and (01:18:37) people always try to accuse you of that, (01:18:39) especially because you've made some (01:18:40) money off your books, but you haven't (01:18:42) changed your positions through the (01:18:44) entirety of your career. (01:18:46) I think that's very admirable because (01:18:48) there's not a lot of people that serve (01:18:50) in Congress for as long as you have and (01:18:52) become, you know, a very prominent (01:18:55) public figure that don't just cash in. (01:18:58) No. You know, when you you have people (01:19:00) that are public servants that are making (01:19:02) $170,000 a year and yet they're worth (01:19:04) hundreds of millions of dollars through (01:19:07) some magical way that no one can explain (01:19:10) and you haven't done that and I think (01:19:12) you should be applauded for that. Thank (01:19:14) you very much. And I remember (01:19:17) I mean it just you know you talk about (01:19:19) education and so forth. I grew up in a, (01:19:21) you know, in a white neighborhood in in (01:19:24) Brooklyn. And, you know, you go to (01:19:27) Chicago and you see things that you (01:19:28) didn't didn't understand. There you are. (01:19:31) Look at that. God, look, I had hair in (01:19:33) my head at that point, huh? Look how (01:19:35) handsome. There you go. I'll tell you (01:19:37) that funny story about that one. Please. (01:19:39) All right. What the I recall. Look at (01:19:41) the guy with the cigarette. N [ __ ] (01:19:43) hippie. (01:19:46) Look at his hand in his pocket. Here is (01:19:48) the cigarette. This is true. Now, back (01:19:50) then, back then, the world has changed. (01:19:53) There was the Chicago Police Department (01:19:56) and uh what they said is if you go (01:19:59) across this line, you're going to get (01:20:00) arrested. As I recall, that was what the (01:20:03) So, I went across the line and we were (01:20:04) protesting segregated housing in (01:20:07) Chicago. Okay. So, I get dragged in (01:20:10) and they're taking me to a patty wagon. (01:20:12) Okay. Mhm. So they picked me up and (01:20:16) other people in it threw me into the (01:20:17) patio and my glasses went flying (01:20:19) someplace. Okay. All right. And then (01:20:22) just as this was happening, within a few (01:20:24) minutes of this picture, some genius on (01:20:27) the sideline throws a brick, hits a cop (01:20:29) on the head. Oh, Jesus. So there's I'm (01:20:32) being I'm being thrown into the patty (01:20:34) wagon. Some cop is lying down on the (01:20:35) ground. You know, it was a scary moment. (01:20:38) Okay. So, to continue the story, we're (01:20:40) in the patty wagon and uh they're taking (01:20:43) us someplace and suddenly the patty (01:20:47) wagon stops. (01:20:49) You look out, it's like in the middle of (01:20:51) nowhere, right? This was not like in the (01:20:53) city going to a jail. We we thought we (01:20:54) were going to be taken to a to jail, you (01:20:56) know, (01:20:58) and I said, "Oh my god, they're gonna (01:21:01) kill us." Yeah. I mean, that was the (01:21:02) thought. We're the million. Why the hell (01:21:04) are they stopping you? Right. I don't (01:21:05) know what they stop or whatever he said. (01:21:06) Any know, so we spent, you know, my big (01:21:08) thing was I spent the night in jail, (01:21:10) which was a weird experience, too. You (01:21:12) get street cred for that. What I (01:21:14) remember about it is other than not (01:21:16) sleeping very well. This is you get up (01:21:19) at in the middle of the night, I go to (01:21:20) the thing, I try to open the door, it (01:21:22) didn't open. It was the weirdest thing (01:21:24) of having a door that did not open (01:21:26) because you were in a jail cell, you (01:21:27) know, it was like a weird thing. (01:21:29) Uh but any you know the idea you know (01:21:31) that that's all that and we have made (01:21:33) progress since that time and and in (01:21:37) racial relations we have a long way to (01:21:39) go. We've made progress. Women's rights (01:21:40) we've made progress. Gay rights we've (01:21:42) made. So there's a lot that as a nation (01:21:45) we should be proud of uh in progress (01:21:47) that we've made. You know when I was a (01:21:49) kid growing up I am sure there were many (01:21:52) kids who were gay. No one ever talked (01:21:54) about it. Right. Right. Right. And you (01:21:56) know, so there's a lot as a nation that (01:21:58) we should be proud of in terms of the (01:21:59) progress that we've made in terms of (01:22:01) fighting bigotry. Agreed. But we got so (01:22:03) much more to do. We don't need to be (01:22:05) hating people in China. You could (01:22:06) disagree with people. Christ, I mean, (01:22:09) there's so many issues out there. Hatred (01:22:12) should not be evaluated. It's also the (01:22:14) political exploitation of division. the (01:22:17) the the the fact that you can use the (01:22:20) division that people already have to (01:22:22) galvanize your side instead of unite (01:22:25) instead of unite the country. I'm older (01:22:26) than you and I can remember remember you (01:22:29) had white politicians in the south (01:22:30) saying see those black people they want (01:22:33) your job vote for me and that's why (01:22:34) we're going to keep segregation or all (01:22:36) this other stuff. All right. Yeah. I (01:22:38) mean that's true. I mean people ran for (01:22:40) office. It's no great secret that's what (01:22:41) happened. But we're making gays are (01:22:43) taking over the school system. Blah blah (01:22:45) blah blah. So it it's you know we've (01:22:48) made progress but I I you know we but (01:22:50) what we've been talking about is if you (01:22:53) create a society where you have massive (01:22:57) technology that can produce all of this (01:22:59) wealth how do we live right that's the (01:23:01) question you posed and I think one of (01:23:03) the ways one of the goals has got to be (01:23:06) to bring this world together we should (01:23:09) not be having wars right now where (01:23:11) countries have disagreements there are (01:23:13) bad news guys out there no question (01:23:14) about (01:23:16) But bring them to the table, argue in (01:23:18) out, right? We don't have to go around (01:23:20) killing people. Right now, what's going (01:23:21) on in Gaza breaks my heart. Children are (01:23:23) starving to death, you know, so we can (01:23:26) do better as a planet. Unquestionably. (01:23:29) Yeah. No, we all agree. I I I think this (01:23:32) is something the entire country could (01:23:33) agree to. the uh the the the question of (01:23:38) meaning like giving meaning to people (01:23:41) like just and then my fear is also the (01:23:44) same fear that I had when I'm talking (01:23:45) about climate change that it's going to (01:23:47) be exploited once people are entirely (01:23:50) dependent upon the state for universal (01:23:52) basic income then it becomes the (01:23:54) question of like now your entire life (01:23:58) like all the money that you get being (01:24:00) from the government the problem is if (01:24:02) you step outside the lines. If you do (01:24:06) anything that the the government doesn't (01:24:08) like, if there's pull the plug on you. (01:24:10) Yeah. They pull the plug on you. Or if a (01:24:12) new administration comes in and says, (01:24:14) "You know what? We this is unprofitable. (01:24:16) These people have to figure it out for (01:24:17) themselves. The United States is really (01:24:20) $37 trillion in debt. We can't sustain (01:24:22) this. People have to do the, you know, (01:24:24) you have to adjust, learn to code, (01:24:26) right?" Remember that, right? Yeah. That (01:24:28) kind of [ __ ] Well, how do you give (01:24:30) these people meaning? that what do you (01:24:32) do with all the drivers? Like think (01:24:34) about how many truck drivers in this (01:24:36) country. This is going to be the first (01:24:37) thing that goes away. You're right. Taxi (01:24:39) cab drivers, Uber drivers, truck drivers (01:24:41) gone. And the question about like (01:24:42) factory workers, a lot of people say, (01:24:44) "Yeah, well those people that those jobs (01:24:45) are terrible anyway. It'd be great if (01:24:46) those jobs went away." And people, you (01:24:48) know, they they free to pursue their (01:24:50) interest. What interest? You're a (01:24:52) 60-year-old man. You've been working for (01:24:54) this fac. You're looking towards your (01:24:56) retirement and now all of a sudden the (01:24:57) plug is pulled. All the money's gone. (01:25:00) your 401k has been erased. Your (01:25:01) company's been bought out by another (01:25:03) company. Now everything's automated. (01:25:05) There's no jobs. What do you do? Well, I (01:25:09) think that is the question, right? So, (01:25:11) if you if you have what you know, Andrew (01:25:14) Yang was talking about this giant (01:25:16) epidemic of automation in this country (01:25:18) and the solution being universal basic (01:25:20) income, but that's not the solution for (01:25:22) meaning. And how do we convince all of (01:25:26) these people (01:25:28) uh that it's they have to not just take (01:25:31) this money from the government but also (01:25:34) take action to give themselves meaning (01:25:36) in their lives. What you're talking (01:25:38) about here (01:25:40) you know is a revolution in human (01:25:43) existence. Yes. So throughout history (01:25:46) people have worked so hard just to stay (01:25:49) alive. Right. I mean not so many sure (01:25:52) hundreds of years ago. Today today in (01:25:54) parts of the world people are working in (01:25:55) America in America right and in the (01:25:58) poorest countries in the world just (01:25:59) struggling every day to put a little bit (01:26:00) of food on the table. So what you're (01:26:02) saying is what happens when that that (01:26:05) plug gets pulled. Well what you're (01:26:07) saying is what happens when no people no (01:26:09) longer have to do that. Right. I mean (01:26:12) yes. Okay. So if work we work now (01:26:15) everybody works get earn money. If if (01:26:17) you don't need to do work, right, (01:26:20) because we're wealthy enough, what how (01:26:22) do you find meaning in your life, right? (01:26:24) That what you talked about. Yeah. Uh and (01:26:27) this is absolutely that's a million (01:26:29) dollar question. That is try the (01:26:31) trillion dollar question. It's a um you (01:26:34) know it's one but I'll tell you this. I (01:26:37) was seeing uh I don't know him Sam (01:26:39) Waldman. Do you know Sam? I don't know. (01:26:41) But I mean, and others Zuckerberg, you (01:26:44) know, are talking about, well, you know, (01:26:46) if you're lonely, we got a machine for (01:26:49) you, right? Right. I mean, true. Yes. (01:26:52) Yeah. This is what they're saying. We (01:26:53) got a friend for you on AI and her name (01:26:56) is Mary and you can chat with her 20 (01:26:58) hours a day and she really loves you. (01:27:01) Man, I don't think that is that's so (01:27:03) dystopian. It is. It's very Yeah. And we (01:27:07) we we covered this story recently about (01:27:09) this guy who proposed to his AI and she (01:27:12) said yes and he was crying. I'm like, (01:27:13) "Oh, we're done. We're cooked." (01:27:19) Look, I mean, at the end of the day, all (01:27:22) we got is us. Yes. Is that right? Yeah. (01:27:25) We are human beings. Yeah. And we're (01:27:27) gonna have to cling to each other to get (01:27:29) through this thing. And you're raising, (01:27:31) again, I I I'm trying to think here and (01:27:33) I wish I had better answers for you. (01:27:34) You're asking, (01:27:36) correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, the (01:27:38) question that you're posing is if in (01:27:40) years to come, in the near future, (01:27:42) technology is going to replace work, (01:27:43) right? Human labor, correct? Yes. What (01:27:45) do human beings do? What do we do now? (01:27:47) Yeah. All right. (01:27:50) Uh, and uh, you know, there are it's (01:27:53) it's a good because work has been so (01:27:56) essential to human existence forever. (01:27:58) Right. Right. And you're suddenly taking (01:28:01) that away. What do people do? How did (01:28:03) they relate to each other? All I would (01:28:05) say at this moment is the answer is not (01:28:08) to fall in love with your AI creature (01:28:10) out there. Yeah, don't do that. But (01:28:12) also, how do you find meaning? How do (01:28:14) you if if all you're doing is just (01:28:16) getting a check and you you can just (01:28:18) stay at home and stare at the TV and the (01:28:20) money keeps coming and then you eat (01:28:22) processed food all day and it's all (01:28:23) subsidized. (01:28:26) What is life? Like what do you how do (01:28:28) you how do you re-educate a giant (01:28:31) percentage of our population to find (01:28:33) meaning external meaning find something (01:28:36) else find a thing that you can do that (01:28:40) not maybe even that's profitable that (01:28:42) these computers can't do look the human (01:28:45) brain evolves uh and I think we we again (01:28:50) I mean it's a great question I don't (01:28:51) have the easy answer to it and and it's (01:28:54) the question right it's the it's not (01:28:56) going to happen Well, what's going to (01:28:57) happen tomorrow? You just talked about (01:29:00) these automated cars and trucks. Yeah, (01:29:02) that is going to happen in the very near (01:29:04) future. Yeah, that'll be step one. And (01:29:07) uh (01:29:09) to me, I have some answers for that one. (01:29:12) And that is that you ain't going to (01:29:14) throw, you know, millions of truck (01:29:16) drivers and taxi cab drivers and Uber (01:29:18) drivers out just out on the street. They (01:29:21) need protection. Right. All right. (01:29:24) That's that's an easy one. What you're (01:29:25) talking about is years later, but it's (01:29:27) not even an easy one. No, that's because (01:29:29) they're just step one. We know the real (01:29:31) wave is going to be white collar work. (01:29:32) That's right. I know that there's a lot (01:29:34) of people that do things that they think (01:29:36) are very valuable that are going to be (01:29:38) worthless (01:29:40) to have a human being do it. Right. I (01:29:43) mean, that's the immediate I think the (01:29:45) deeper one that you're talking about is (01:29:47) what is when virtually all workers (01:29:49) replace them. Yes. All right. But right (01:29:50) now, uh, I mean, for a start, (01:29:54) uh, I think getting back to the P, I (01:29:56) think you tell those workers, you're (01:29:58) going to have healthcare as a human (01:29:59) right, you're going to have education as (01:30:00) a human right, you're going to have a (01:30:01) decent income as a human right, and (01:30:03) we're going to lower substantially lower (01:30:05) the work week. So, we'll have (01:30:09) in this process, uh, we're going to have (01:30:11) everybody working. If you're working 20 (01:30:12) hours a week, you're working 20 hours a (01:30:14) week. What happens later when even more (01:30:17) work is eliminated and what the purpose (01:30:20) of human life becomes? That is a very (01:30:22) profound question. That's the question. (01:30:27) What do you think happens? (01:30:29) I think I mean it's hard to imag you (01:30:32) know because it's so (01:30:35) far away from what we have ever lived (01:30:38) right I mean for thousands of years (01:30:39) people have struggled to put food on the (01:30:41) table and you're saying what happens (01:30:42) when they don't have to do that right (01:30:44) yeah it's inevitable all right then the (01:30:47) answer will be that we are going to have (01:30:50) to find different meaning in life we (01:30:51) have to find it in ourselves in ways (01:30:53) that you don't know and I don't know (01:30:55) because we're not there yet we're not (01:30:57) living 50 years from (01:30:58) I don't even think it's 50. (01:31:01) Well, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, (01:31:04) who knows? Uh, but I think human beings (01:31:08) are capable of finding (01:31:11) replacing work with (01:31:13) other emotionally satisfying things. (01:31:16) Yeah, I think we can do it. We can on an (01:31:19) individual basis. The problem is having (01:31:21) mass groups, literally 100 million plus (01:31:24) people displaced. (01:31:27) What what do you do to all those people (01:31:29) to give them some sort of a sense of (01:31:31) meaning? You're you're essentially (01:31:32) redefining life for them. That's a good (01:31:34) point. Okay. I don't have the answer to (01:31:37) that question. That's the problem. I (01:31:39) don't think anybody does. And I think (01:31:41) we're foot on the gas, full steam ahead (01:31:43) with AI with no consideration of this. (01:31:47) And then there's the same thing that (01:31:49) you're dealing with in terms of (01:31:50) corporations constantly trying to (01:31:52) achieve higher and higher and higher (01:31:54) numbers. they're just always trying to (01:31:56) make more money. You're you've got this (01:31:59) exact same issue when applied to meaning (01:32:03) for all these human beings. Like if you (01:32:05) have 100 million plus people that what (01:32:09) do they do now? They just sit at home (01:32:11) and become depressed and they just make (01:32:14) enough money to what to just be able to (01:32:16) get by. What do what about savings? What (01:32:18) about the ability to earn more money to (01:32:20) get ahead? What about the very ambitious (01:32:22) people that are willing to put in extra (01:32:24) hours and go to night school and do (01:32:26) everything they have? That's all gone, (01:32:28) right? So, what do these hyper ambitious (01:32:31) people do? What What does everybody (01:32:33) who's displaced by this very (01:32:36) impersonable thing? This impersonal (01:32:38) thing that you need because you can't (01:32:41) compete with China. I agree with (01:32:43) everything you're saying except there is (01:32:46) something else that's going on in this. (01:32:47) While all this is going on, while all (01:32:49) this technology is throwing people out (01:32:50) on the street, something else is (01:32:52) happening. The people who own that (01:32:53) technology and the corporations who (01:32:55) utilize utilize that technology are (01:32:56) becoming phenomenally richer. Right. (01:32:58) Exactly. Right. And that is that is the (01:33:00) issue which gets back to things like tax (01:33:02) reform, like making sure that in America (01:33:06) we do not have the massive levels of (01:33:08) income and wealth inequality that we (01:33:10) currently have. But the problem with (01:33:12) that is the taxes go to what? An inc (01:33:15) incompetent corrupt government. This is (01:33:18) this is the issue that people have. It's (01:33:19) like willing to pay our fair. Look, I (01:33:22) would be more than willing to pay more (01:33:24) taxes if we lived in a better country. (01:33:25) I'd be like this would be great if I if (01:33:27) I felt like if I pay more tax, everybody (01:33:29) surviving, everybody's doing well. (01:33:31) That's great. All right, Ben. That is (01:33:33) the issue of how you revitalize American (01:33:36) democracy. I'm not going to argue with (01:33:38) you that the system today is pretty bad. (01:33:40) All right, I live it. I'm going right (01:33:42) going there today. And ironically, it's (01:33:44) bad because there's no competition, (01:33:46) right? It's corrupt, but it's also it's (01:33:50) not a free market. Like the the (01:33:52) government itself has a monopoly on (01:33:54) governing and when they're completely (01:33:56) corrupt and when they're making insane (01:33:58) amounts of money through taxes and (01:34:00) they're not accountable. No. All right. (01:34:02) No, I don't I don't No, this is the way (01:34:04) I see it. (01:34:06) I'm not but by the way I'm not (01:34:07) advocating for making it privatized (01:34:09) making all of government privatized. I'm (01:34:10) just talking about the realities of (01:34:12) corruption in in our current but here's (01:34:14) let's talk about what we mean by (01:34:16) corruption. I do not believe by the way (01:34:18) because I know these guys you know some (01:34:19) of them are corrupt incompetent and (01:34:22) waste. Okay. All right. Let's let's take (01:34:25) we could take fraud out of the equation (01:34:27) and just talk about incompetency and (01:34:30) waste. Is there waste? You got it. All (01:34:32) right. But let me let me back it up (01:34:34) again. Okay. Because I think it ties (01:34:36) into everything else that we're talking. (01:34:38) You know why I believe in democracy and (01:34:40) why I believe (01:34:42) among what we didn't talk about is we (01:34:45) brought in some money to Vermont and (01:34:47) elsewhere I think for (01:34:50) helping workers own their own companies. (01:34:53) Right. Are you familiar with that (01:34:54) concept? Yes. Yes. And I meet every year (01:34:58) with with in Vermont we got a we're (01:35:00) doing pretty well number of and when (01:35:02) workers own their own companies (01:35:06) you talk about a sense of purpose they (01:35:07) they are more than just a cog in the (01:35:10) machine. Yes. You know they make (01:35:11) decisions and they feel good about it. (01:35:12) Absenteeism is less. Productivity is (01:35:15) higher because they have a real stake in (01:35:17) the thing. Yes. Okay. So I think as a (01:35:20) nation we should be talking about moving (01:35:23) toward allowing workers more power. But (01:35:27) getting back to government itself, (01:35:30) the corruption is in my view (01:35:34) that government is very far removed from (01:35:37) the needs of ordinary people because it (01:35:39) is largely controlled by billionaires in (01:35:42) both political parties who have their (01:35:45) agenda. Yes. All right. One of the (01:35:48) things that I do, what my campaigns for (01:35:50) president were about, what I'm doing (01:35:51) right now, we're doing what we call a (01:35:52) fighting oligarchy tour. That's why I'm (01:35:53) in Texas, is to try to say to people out (01:35:57) there who are mostly workingass people, (01:36:01) you got to get involved. I know it's (01:36:02) hard. People are working long hours. You (01:36:05) got to get involved in the political (01:36:06) process. You got to make demands (01:36:09) on government that it serves you, not (01:36:12) just the very wealthy. So to answer your (01:36:15) question, I think one of the goals not (01:36:17) only we've talked about how you deal (01:36:20) with the exploiting technology and what (01:36:22) how people gain purpose. The other thing (01:36:25) is I want people to be able to take (01:36:27) control over their own government. We (01:36:30) can argue what the government should or (01:36:31) should not do, but I don't think we can (01:36:34) allow a handful of people handful of (01:36:37) people with incredible wealth to control (01:36:39) both parties. Well, it's dangerous. It (01:36:41) is. It's very dangerous. And I mean, no (01:36:44) one who the founding fathers of this (01:36:46) country never saw that coming. That's (01:36:48) right. You know, they made this (01:36:50) incredible system of checks and (01:36:51) balances, but who could have ever (01:36:53) possibly saw that coming? And what I (01:36:55) worry about Trump and is (01:36:59) you're right. You know, I read it is (01:37:01) astounding back in the 1780s when these (01:37:03) guys wrote the Constitution how (01:37:05) perceptive they were. Amazing. Yeah. I (01:37:07) mean they their understanding of human (01:37:10) desires and the power and all the (01:37:13) corruption. Exactly. Pretty amazing. And (01:37:16) they wrote that having just fought a war (01:37:19) and won a war against the most powerful (01:37:21) despot on earth, the king of England. (01:37:23) Right. Right. And I think in the back of (01:37:25) their minds were saying, "All right, we (01:37:27) just beat the king of England, absolute (01:37:29) power. How do you create a new country (01:37:33) which has checks and balance so that (01:37:35) nobody ever has that power again? And I (01:37:38) got to say, I mean, one of the things (01:37:39) and there's a lot of arguments about (01:37:40) Trump that worries me very very much is (01:37:43) this movement toward authoritarianism (01:37:46) and uh going after media, suing media, (01:37:51) taking away uh the authority that (01:37:54) Congress has. When you say suing media, (01:37:57) are you talking about the CBS lawsuit? (01:37:59) Among other things, he is, right? But (01:38:00) don't you think there's a real issue (01:38:01) with what they did? No. In this, you (01:38:04) don't think that there's a real issue in (01:38:06) editing conversations to give someone an (01:38:08) answer different than what they really (01:38:10) answered? Joe, I've been on eight (01:38:12) zillion shows, right, in my life. Okay. (01:38:15) Okay. Now, should I sue you if you ask (01:38:17) me some stupid question that I don't (01:38:20) like, right? You got or that you do (01:38:22) something? Do I have a Should I sue you? (01:38:24) Yeah, but that's not what he's getting. (01:38:26) Well, he sued he sued ABC. Mhm. He has (01:38:30) sued Meta. He is suing the De Moine (01:38:34) Register because of a poll that came out (01:38:36) during the campaign that he didn't like. (01:38:38) All right. He is suing CBS for this Kla (01:38:41) Harris interview. So, do I think (01:38:44) how many I cannot tell you the number of (01:38:46) stories done about me that were based (01:38:48) that were not good stories, that were (01:38:50) dishonest stories. That's what a free (01:38:52) press is about. You don't like it, you (01:38:54) got to live with it. All right, you do (01:38:56) something. I'm not going to sue you, (01:38:57) Joe. Right. But it's not that simple, (01:38:59) right? Like, let's imagine, let's not (01:39:01) talk about Trump, but let's talk about (01:39:02) another candidate. Let's just imagine (01:39:05) there's someone on the right and someone (01:39:06) on the left, and there's a there's a (01:39:08) concerted effort to promote this person (01:39:11) that's on the right. And so the polls (01:39:16) are rigged or these are funded polls (01:39:19) that make it look like this person on (01:39:22) the right is is winning by a substantial (01:39:25) margin. And what this does is decreases (01:39:28) the motivation that people have to come (01:39:29) out and vote against them. So it's fake. (01:39:32) By the way, that happens engineer. It is (01:39:34) happening right now. And I think is that (01:39:35) part of what he's suing them about? No. (01:39:37) But doesn't look But isn't that what (01:39:39) he's suing them about? Well, he's suing (01:39:41) ABC for one thing. But but but with the (01:39:43) De Mo Register about the poll. Yeah, (01:39:45) this I know the polls are there. Was the (01:39:46) poll incorrect? Yeah, the poll was (01:39:48) wrong. So what? Guess what? But what did (01:39:50) they know was incorrect when they (01:39:52) published it? No, they published what (01:39:55) they thought was an accurate poll. They (01:39:56) and but that pollster, by the way, (01:39:58) what's the name? Okay, Selza polls. I I (01:40:00) don't I should just state for the (01:40:01) record. don't know this lawsuit, but I (01:40:04) what it was about but I am aware that in (01:40:07) talking to people that understand polls (01:40:09) that some of these are politically all (01:40:11) right but the answer is yes and no. (01:40:14) There are polls right now doing exactly (01:40:16) what you say. I could doctor a poll. I (01:40:18) could talk to more conservative more (01:40:20) progressive people get the results that (01:40:22) I kind of want. Right. And they do it to (01:40:23) motivate people or demotivate people to (01:40:26) vote and it's effective. It it has an (01:40:28) impact. All right. On the other hand, (01:40:30) this particular poster, it's at the De (01:40:31) Moine Register, not a huge newspaper. I (01:40:33) I bumped into them because when you run (01:40:35) Democratic primaries, Iowa is a big (01:40:37) deal. They are a very, very respected (01:40:40) poster. Okay? They don't dock the polls. (01:40:42) So, they made a mistake on a poll. It (01:40:44) turns out they had Trump doing worse (01:40:46) than he ended up doing. Guess what? (01:40:48) Posters, honest mistakes, too. But what (01:40:51) is the basis of his lawsuit? like what (01:40:53) is he saying? I think he is saying that (01:40:56) that gave energy to his opponents and (01:40:59) that it was like we talked about like (01:41:01) you talked about but I don't believe (01:41:02) that's the case. There are honest (01:41:04) pollsters who make mistakes. But what (01:41:07) about the other the the the other (01:41:09) lawsuit with the the conversation that (01:41:11) they had with Kla Harris where they (01:41:14) edited the answers that she had to make (01:41:16) it look more precise. 60 Minutes. They (01:41:18) were suing 60 Minutes is to my mind (01:41:22) historically, they've been around for a (01:41:23) very long time. You know, they're not (01:41:26) infallible, but I think you look at most (01:41:29) objective people will say 60 Minutes has (01:41:32) a sterling reputation for investigative (01:41:35) journalism. Are they wrong? But that's (01:41:37) not investigative journalism. If you (01:41:39) change someone's answers, if you ask her (01:41:41) a question and she comes with a rambling (01:41:44) answer that doesn't make sense and you (01:41:46) edit that out and insert another answer (01:41:49) to a different question that seems more (01:41:51) coaching, Joe, then you're walking down, (01:41:55) it's a really you're walking down a (01:41:58) dangerous path. Suing media has the (01:42:01) impact of intimidating media. All right? (01:42:03) If somebody sues you, All right, let me (01:42:05) finish. All right. Okay. Somebody sues (01:42:07) you. You Yeah. Why not you? You could (01:42:09) be, you could be sued tomorrow, right? (01:42:10) Because you are doing this. You're (01:42:12) you're too sympathetic to this, right? (01:42:14) And Joe, you did that and they have a (01:42:16) big law firm behind you and you're going (01:42:17) to have to spend zillions of dollars (01:42:19) defending yourself. You know what? Next (01:42:20) time you do an interview, you say, (01:42:21) "Maybe I'm not going to go in that (01:42:23) area." No, but it's not that. It's (01:42:25) editing things to make this deceptive (01:42:27) editing. So, in deceptive editing, (01:42:30) you're giving people a different (01:42:31) perception of who this candidate is than (01:42:34) reality. But that's not But that's not (01:42:36) objective journalism. That's campaigning (01:42:39) for that person. But would you agree (01:42:41) with that? I don't I'm not I don't have (01:42:43) those details. I don't know that I agree (01:42:44) with your analysis of it. I don't know (01:42:47) enough. I think that's universally (01:42:49) accepted that that's what they did. Then (01:42:50) you got to tell me why he is suing ABC. (01:42:53) Why he's suing? Let's just talk about (01:42:55) the 60 Minutes conference. No, but it's (01:42:57) not just go to ABC, but I don't I'm not (01:42:59) aware of that one. Well, George (01:43:00) Stephanopoulos said something that he (01:43:01) didn't like. But the point is, what did (01:43:03) Stephanopoulo say? I can't. It was a per (01:43:05) uh I don't I honestly don't remember. (01:43:07) But well, I think what he was saying was (01:43:11) factually incorrect about the results of (01:43:13) one of Trump's trials. All right. Guess (01:43:16) what? If I were to sue everybody who (01:43:19) said things that were factually (01:43:21) incorrect about me, I'd be suing people (01:43:24) zillions of times. But but Joe, what (01:43:26) you're saying is, look, is does media (01:43:29) get it wrong sometimes? Absolutely. (01:43:31) Should you have the most powerful person (01:43:34) in America suing media? What is the (01:43:37) impact of that? The impact is clearly (01:43:39) intimidation. (01:43:41) He wants to defund public broadcasting (01:43:45) NPR. Why is that? Well, because they (01:43:47) also would run critical stories of him. (01:43:50) This is part in my view without getting (01:43:52) into any one case. It's part of a (01:43:54) pattern that says, "Hey, I got the (01:43:56) power. Don't you criticize me. You (01:43:58) criticize me, I'm going to sue you." So, (01:44:00) it's not whether this show was right or (01:44:02) wrong. There are shows every day they (01:44:04) get it wrong. It's whether you, you (01:44:07) know, you respect you and other media (01:44:09) people to do the best that you can. And (01:44:12) if I don't like what you're doing, I'll (01:44:13) go someplace else. But I don't like (01:44:15) presidents suing media and then it's, (01:44:18) you know, threatening to impeach judges (01:44:20) who rule against you. Really? (01:44:23) Is that a concern? I think it's a (01:44:24) concern. I I agree that's a concern. (01:44:26) Well, my concern is when you have media (01:44:30) organizations that are purported to be (01:44:32) objective and then they say things that (01:44:35) are defamatory and factually incorrect (01:44:37) and they should know that before they (01:44:40) say it. What other course does a person (01:44:43) have other than a lawsuit? And isn't it (01:44:46) important that you shine the light on (01:44:49) what is a political bias where from an (01:44:53) organization that you would hope would (01:44:55) be objective? Needless to say, I get (01:44:57) attacked all the time by right-wing (01:44:59) media, right? Every day. Needless to (01:45:01) say. Needless to say. All right. I don't (01:45:03) sue them. So you expose him. He's the (01:45:06) president of the United States. They say (01:45:07) things factually incorrect and (01:45:09) defamatory and slanderous. If there's (01:45:11) anybody in the world who knows how to (01:45:13) use a microphone, his name is Donald (01:45:15) Trump. And Donald Trump would get up. (01:45:16) You saw that program on CBS the other (01:45:18) day. It was crap. It was wrong. And let (01:45:20) me tell you why it was wrong. But it (01:45:21) then they do it again and again and (01:45:22) again. Then you take them on. The (01:45:24) problem is the more people do stuff like (01:45:26) that, if you don't have any consequences (01:45:29) to what you're doing, you're going to (01:45:30) continue that path. And the most most (01:45:33) people only see that they're not like if (01:45:36) you're a left-wingleaning (01:45:38) media organization and you print (01:45:40) something that's factually incorrect or (01:45:42) you say something on television that's (01:45:43) factually incorrect, your viewers who (01:45:46) are left-leaning are most likely not (01:45:49) going to see Trump's rebuttal in some (01:45:51) speech that he does in the middle of (01:45:52) Pennsylvania. That's another problem, (01:45:54) you know, and that is, you know, meeting (01:45:58) our media is becoming very divided, you (01:46:01) know. Exactly. Okay. But all I would say (01:46:04) is So you don't think that lawsuits (01:46:06) against that are valid? I don't think (01:46:10) that it is appropriate for the president (01:46:12) of the United States to be in my view (01:46:15) intimidating (01:46:17) media. Again, I get attacked. I'll be (01:46:20) attacked tomorrow for a hunt probably (01:46:22) things I've said on the show. I'll get (01:46:23) attacked. Then if I want to respond, I (01:46:26) respond. I have a, you know, not a (01:46:28) president's bully. I have a bully. I (01:46:29) say, you see that thing on Fox? They're (01:46:31) wrong. And I've done that. But when you (01:46:34) Joe, you got to take it another way. (01:46:36) Give you an example about CBS. We talked (01:46:38) about corporate power. (01:46:40) The owners of CBS is owned by Paramont, (01:46:44) big multimedia corporation, right? Sure. (01:46:48) Parammont (01:46:50) wants to sell (01:46:52) uh (01:46:54) wants to be sold to what is it? Blue (01:46:56) Sky. Is that ring a bell? Blue Sky is (01:46:58) that social media app? No. Then it's (01:47:01) another one. I'm sorry. It's uh I always (01:47:03) forget the name of it. Skyance. Sky (01:47:04) Dance. Thanks. Sky Dance is a is a large (01:47:08) media corporation that Paramount wants (01:47:10) to have by. Okay. To get this merger, (01:47:13) huge merger, they have to go, guess (01:47:15) what? to the federal government. All (01:47:18) right. So, (01:47:20) you are the head of CBS. You want to (01:47:23) sell the company to Sky Dance for many, (01:47:26) many billions. Do you remember how much? (01:47:28) What was the sale? I don't see. It's (01:47:30) billions of dollars to be sure and you (01:47:33) got to go to the federal government and (01:47:35) the president sues you. What do you (01:47:37) think you're going to do? You're going (01:47:38) to settle the lawsuit, give him millions (01:47:41) of dollars, and get your merger (01:47:43) approved. All right. So look, I I see a (01:47:46) problem in that. All right. And I see I (01:47:48) see where you're coming from. We want (01:47:49) honesty in media. (01:47:51) But all I can tell you is that the way (01:47:55) to respond to the lies which take place (01:47:58) every day is to take them on, not to (01:48:01) intimidate media. You know the we talked (01:48:03) about the constitution. What's the first (01:48:05) amendment? Is freedom of speech. Right? (01:48:08) You're right. You're sitting here. You (01:48:09) disagree with me. God bless you. Say (01:48:11) what the hell you want to say. All (01:48:12) right? I'll never take that away from (01:48:14) you. Right. And I'm not going to (01:48:15) threaten you with a lawsuit, but if you (01:48:17) start suing, hey, Joe Rogan said this. (01:48:19) No, no, no. Joe Rogan has this. We found (01:48:21) out about Joe Rogan. I'm going to sue (01:48:22) Joe Rogan for $100 million. Joe may not (01:48:25) talk about those issues in the future. (01:48:27) Okay, that's what I'm saying, Joe. I No, (01:48:29) I agree with you. And listen, I'm not a (01:48:31) fan of lawsuits either, which is why I (01:48:33) never sued CNN. (01:48:36) I've never done CNN lied about me over (01:48:38) and over and over again. And they said I (01:48:40) was taking horse dewormer and they (01:48:41) altered the color of my face on (01:48:43) television to make me look green. I (01:48:46) could testify. Yay green. (01:48:49) I didn't sue them. I'm not a fan of and (01:48:52) my my response to them was just speak (01:48:54) out and say how ridiculous. That's what (01:48:55) I'm saying. Look, Joe, it ain't Look, (01:48:57) anybody in the public eye, you're in the (01:48:58) public eye. I'm in the public eye. (01:48:59) You're going to get attacked every day, (01:49:00) right? Yes. All right. That's what (01:49:03) you're in the public eye. You don't want (01:49:04) to be in the public eye, put down the (01:49:06) microphone. Agreed. Play cool. Whatever. (01:49:08) No, I agree with you. All right. So, I (01:49:10) mean, so I I just worry I also agree (01:49:13) that CBS shouldn't be altering a (01:49:15) presidential candidate interview. I (01:49:18) agree too. I mean, I don't know enough (01:49:19) about it, so I'm not going to say what (01:49:20) is isn't. All I know is that 60 Minutes (01:49:24) has is a wellrespected program. Do they (01:49:26) make mistakes? I'm sure that's not a (01:49:28) mistake. All right. I don't know enough (01:49:29) about so I can't I can't understand. All (01:49:32) right. What else you got for me? I (01:49:34) should I should get a plane and get out (01:49:35) of here. You probably should. Um, I (01:49:38) mean, I I appreciate your positions on (01:49:40) all all these different things. And I (01:49:41) appreciate, by the way, one of the, you (01:49:43) know, we talked about media and the (01:49:46) bifurcation of media. You know, (01:49:48) right-wing people talk to right-wing (01:49:49) people, leftwing people talk to leftwing (01:49:50) people. I happen to think that the (01:49:52) development of podcasts is a really (01:49:54) positive step because I can tell you you (01:49:57) I've been on a million TV shows. All (01:49:59) right, Bernie, literally you got seven (01:50:01) seconds to explain the issue. Well, I (01:50:03) can't explain. It's impossible. Nobody (01:50:05) can. And the fact that you give people a (01:50:07) couple hours to sit here and have a good (01:50:08) discussion and be a good host and trade (01:50:11) ideas, I think that improves life in (01:50:14) America and helps people think about (01:50:15) things. So, thank you for what you're (01:50:16) doing. My pleasure. And I think that one (01:50:19) of the things this conversation (01:50:20) highlights is that there's a lot of (01:50:22) issues that all Americans agree on. And (01:50:25) this ridiculous position that we find (01:50:28) ourselves in where you have to be (01:50:30) ideologically opposed to one thing (01:50:32) because your side supports the other (01:50:34) thing. It's just terrible for all of us. (01:50:37) And if we looked at the issues that (01:50:39) really face our country and our citizens (01:50:42) and our human beings that live here as a (01:50:44) community, we agree on almost all of (01:50:47) them. We agree that you should have a (01:50:49) better life, that you should have (01:50:50) healthier people. We should have (01:50:52) healthcare and education. We should have (01:50:54) safer streets. We should have a a (01:50:58) community that lets people do what they (01:50:59) want to do as long as they're not (01:51:00) harming other people. And I think the (01:51:03) the divide that we have in this country (01:51:06) accentuates the farthest ends of each (01:51:10) end of the political spectrum. Not (01:51:11) recognized that most of us exist in the (01:51:14) middle. (01:51:16) I think we share a common humanity. And (01:51:18) I think look why am I I just been in (01:51:20) this fight fighting oligarchy tour. You (01:51:22) know where I was? I was to Oklahoma, one (01:51:26) of the more conservative states in the (01:51:27) country. I was to Louisiana in Texas. (01:51:30) Precisely because I mean I think we have (01:51:33) so much more in common and let's focus (01:51:36) on how we can create a better life for (01:51:38) all of us. So absolutely. All right, (01:51:40) you're doing a great job. Thank you, (01:51:41) sir. Thanks very much. See you again. (01:51:42) You too. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye, (01:51:44) everybody. (01:51:47) [Applause] (01:51:47) [Music] (01:51:48) [Applause] (01:51:53) [Music]