The Truth About Raising Children in a Toxic Culture ft. Gabor Maté (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) Hey everybody, welcome back to the (00:00:01) Journey podcast. I'm really excited (00:00:04) because I have an incredible, incredible (00:00:06) person, a physician, a Holocaust (00:00:09) survivor, and a four-time New York Times (00:00:13) bestselling author. Maybe five times. (00:00:15) It's an incredible amount. Dr. Gabbor (00:00:17) Mate, we are going to talk through a (00:00:19) variety of topics in this episode. It's (00:00:21) a little bit deeper than how I usually (00:00:23) go and so I hope you guys really enjoy (00:00:25) it. Dr. Mate has a variety of books. One (00:00:28) is called the myth of normal. Another (00:00:31) one is called Hold on to your kids. Cuz (00:00:33) honestly after this conversation I was (00:00:35) like I need every one of these things. (00:00:37) As you guys know I'm on my own journey (00:00:39) becoming a parent. So this episode gets (00:00:41) a little bit personal but I find it (00:00:43) really inspiring and really insightful (00:00:45) and I hope you really enjoy it. And I (00:00:47) would recommend that you listen to this (00:00:49) episode in a quiet place, a place where (00:00:51) you can truly listen to what we're (00:00:53) talking about and sit with yourself a (00:00:56) little bit because we're all on our own (00:00:57) journey through trauma, stress, managing (00:01:01) all of the inputs of culture and (00:01:02) society. I think unbeknownst to us, (00:01:05) there is a toll that those things take. (00:01:07) So, I hope you enjoy this episode and (00:01:08) I'll see you on the other side. Hey (00:01:11) everyone, I'm Morgan Don, a passionate (00:01:13) entrepreneur and life adviser. With the (00:01:15) Journey Podcast, you'll discover that (00:01:17) success isn't about the destination, (00:01:18) it's about the journey. I'm sharing (00:01:20) stories of amazing people who've taken (00:01:22) control of their lives. Join me on my (00:01:25) own journey to discover the secret sauce (00:01:27) behind reaching success with permission (00:01:29) from no one else. Welcome, doctor, to (00:01:32) the podcast. (00:01:33) Thank you. (00:01:34) I want to just start off with a little (00:01:35) bit on your journey. As we were just (00:01:37) talking before the episode started, you (00:01:40) are a Holocaust survivor and was born as (00:01:43) an infant under occupancy. Uh (00:01:47) I was two months of age in Budapest when (00:01:50) the Nazis occupied Hungary. So I spent (00:01:52) my first year as a Jewish infant under (00:01:55) the Nazi occupation. (00:01:56) Wow. And you talk about that in your (00:01:59) book. (00:01:59) The book is entitled The Myth of Normal (00:02:02) Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic (00:02:04) Culture. And the context in which I talk (00:02:06) about it in the very first chapter is I (00:02:09) think it's rather relevant because it's (00:02:11) all about how early experiences shape (00:02:12) our reactions and personality sometimes (00:02:16) for a lifetime. (00:02:17) So I talk about an episode where I (00:02:19) arrive home from a speaking trip here in (00:02:21) Vancouver eight years ago where my wife (00:02:24) is supposed to pick me up at the airport (00:02:26) and I get a text on arrival saying, "I (00:02:29) haven't left home yet. Do you still want (00:02:30) me to come?" (00:02:32) And I go into a rage. I go into a rage (00:02:34) and when I get home I don't even look at (00:02:36) her and this is after decades of (00:02:40) marriage where I know that my wife is an (00:02:42) artist and when she's in her studio she (00:02:44) forgets that she's married you know (00:02:46) she's just in the creative flow of (00:02:47) painting. (00:02:48) Mhm. (00:02:49) So what was that withdrawal and that (00:02:51) solemnness and that rage all about? But (00:02:53) what happened was it's a sense of (00:02:55) rejection and abandonment. (00:02:58) But I wasn't rejected and abandoned. She (00:03:00) just didn't look at her clock in her (00:03:02) studio where she was engrossed in her (00:03:04) painting. When I was 11 months of age, (00:03:07) my mother gave me to a stranger in the (00:03:09) street to save my life (00:03:11) because literally I was dying and um she (00:03:16) couldn't ensure my survival and I didn't (00:03:19) see her for five or six weeks. When I (00:03:21) saw her again, I wouldn't even look at (00:03:23) her. Wow. (00:03:24) And that's that's what small babies do (00:03:26) on separation. And it's kind of a (00:03:28) defensive mechanism in the brain that (00:03:31) says you were so hurt when you abandoned (00:03:34) that you'll not make yourself so (00:03:35) vulnerable again. Now, (00:03:38) I don't recall that happening because (00:03:40) the part of the brain that recalls isn't (00:03:43) online at 11 months of age, but I (00:03:46) remember it because there's a kind of (00:03:48) memory called implicit memory, which (00:03:51) doesn't have recall for the actual (00:03:53) episode, but which carries the emotional (00:03:56) imprint of those early experiences. So (00:03:59) literally my reaction to my wife 8 years (00:04:02) ago at age 72 was that of an 11-month (00:04:06) old baby being abandoned my mother. (00:04:09) And so if you understand what I'm (00:04:11) saying, what I'm talking about is that (00:04:13) those early imprints, those traumas can (00:04:16) govern our behaviors for a lifetime (00:04:18) until we worked them out. And it's (00:04:21) responsible for a lot of our behaviors (00:04:23) and a lot of our problems. Mhm. (00:04:26) Throughout your journey learning that, (00:04:29) how did you become aware of the (00:04:32) connectivity and the correlation between (00:04:34) those traumas and your reactions through (00:04:36) adulthood? (00:04:36) Well, look, I was a successful family (00:04:39) doctor in my 40s. I was a head of the (00:04:42) paliative care unit at a big hospital (00:04:44) here. I had nothing but admiration and a (00:04:46) good income. And I was unhappy. (00:04:49) My marriage was struggling. My kids were (00:04:51) nervous around me. Um, (00:04:53) and I had to start asking what's going (00:04:55) on. And I know I'm talking to (00:04:57) entrepreneurs. So, here's the thing. In (00:04:59) a sense, I was a medical entrepreneur. I (00:05:01) mean, I didn't have a business or a (00:05:03) product, but I was the product, you (00:05:05) know, (00:05:05) and I was a workaholic. And I drove (00:05:07) myself really hard. (00:05:09) What was that all about? (00:05:11) Mhm. (00:05:11) When I entered medicine, I had the ideal (00:05:14) of helping humanity, which is a (00:05:16) legitimate goal. And also, I want to be (00:05:18) in a profession where I have a (00:05:20) reasonable income. And that's a (00:05:21) reasonable goal. But I didn't realize (00:05:24) that driving me was something (00:05:25) unconscious. And that was the need to (00:05:27) prove my value. Now, why did I have a (00:05:30) need to prove my value and to (00:05:32) demonstrate my importance to the world (00:05:34) is because the message I got is that I (00:05:36) wasn't wanted. When my mother your (00:05:39) mother gives you to a stranger or when (00:05:41) your mother is unhappy and terrified (00:05:43) because of what's going on in the world, (00:05:45) you get the sense that you're not good (00:05:46) enough and you're not wanted. So if (00:05:48) you're not wanted and if you don't (00:05:50) perceive subconsciously that you're (00:05:52) important, then here's what you do. You (00:05:54) become a workaholic and you keep trying (00:05:56) to prove to yourself how important you (00:05:58) are. And so that was the case with me. (00:06:00) And so gradually I had to come to terms (00:06:03) with what's driving me anyway, you know. (00:06:05) So I could have been a very fine (00:06:07) physician and I was a good physician (00:06:09) dedicated to my calling, but I didn't (00:06:12) have to be a workaholic. So the (00:06:14) difference is this. There's a calling (00:06:16) which calls you and you can answer that (00:06:18) call or not answer it. But being driven (00:06:20) is something else. When you're driven, (00:06:23) you're like a leaf in the wind being (00:06:25) driven by forces you don't even (00:06:27) understand. And I see this a lot in the (00:06:30) professional world. Uh maybe you (00:06:31) understand personally what I'm talking (00:06:33) about that there's that calling which is (00:06:36) the pure excitement of where you want to (00:06:38) express yourself and contribute to the (00:06:40) world. That's the calling. But then (00:06:42) there's the being drivenness where you (00:06:44) have to justify your existence and you (00:06:46) have to keep going and going and going (00:06:47) no matter what the cost. And that is (00:06:50) very common in our culture and it's very (00:06:52) hard on the children because when I'm a (00:06:55) workaholic doctor being driven by the (00:06:58) need to justify my existence that means (00:07:00) I'm on call 24/7 and (00:07:02) most babies or running to the emergency (00:07:05) ward or looking after my office (00:07:06) patients. What message do my kids get? (00:07:09) Oh, I I actually I know the message. My (00:07:12) father is a hematologist, oncologist, (00:07:14) pediatric (00:07:16) at Vanderbilt (00:07:18) and I love my father. I'm a daddy's (00:07:19) girl. Uh but I know what message it (00:07:22) sends because I was a child, you know, (00:07:24) when my dad was working and on call and (00:07:26) crazy hours. Now he's way more balanced. (00:07:29) I see him a couple times a week and you (00:07:31) know, he's worked it out. But my mom and (00:07:33) him say, you know, she was a single mom (00:07:35) for the first 10 years of our lives. You (00:07:38) know, my memories of my father really (00:07:40) start at 10, 13 years old. (00:07:43) Yeah. So, basically, like my kids, you (00:07:46) had an absent father in some sense. (00:07:48) Yeah. He was providing. He was doing (00:07:49) what he could. He did the best that he (00:07:51) could. (00:07:51) Yeah. (00:07:52) But Yeah. (00:07:53) So, the message to the child is that (00:07:55) they're not important. (00:07:56) Not as important. (00:07:59) And and yeah, so this is how we pass on (00:08:01) our stuff. (00:08:02) So, um when you ask how did I come to (00:08:04) terms with all this? It took time and (00:08:06) it's taken a lot of self-work and (00:08:08) therapy and uh self-examination and (00:08:11) re-evaluating and also having to deal (00:08:14) with the fact that I was married to (00:08:15) somebody who wasn't happy with the way I (00:08:17) was living my life. (00:08:19) Right. Yeah. You know, my parents (00:08:21) relationship is private, so I have no (00:08:22) idea how my mom handled it. But I do (00:08:25) know I think more recently, especially (00:08:27) as I've become a parent, there's been a (00:08:28) lot more discussions with my parents (00:08:30) about what they did as parents. And (00:08:33) there's times when they'll say something (00:08:34) and tell me a story about you know well (00:08:36) we did this when you were little and you (00:08:38) know we were very intentional about this (00:08:39) which is why you are who you are today (00:08:41) independent high achieving etc. And I (00:08:44) say well that's not exactly how I (00:08:45) remember it and that's not how I (00:08:47) received it and those have been really (00:08:50) awkward moments I think because they're (00:08:52) not used to me saying like well that's (00:08:54) not exactly that was your intention but (00:08:56) that's not what happened to me. But it's (00:08:58) interesting. It's interesting what (00:08:59) you're saying, Morgan, because um my (00:09:01) eldest son and I with whom I wrote The (00:09:03) Myth of Normal, (00:09:04) right, (00:09:05) are now writing a new book together (00:09:07) called Hello Again, a fresh start for (00:09:09) parents and adult children. (00:09:12) And he's saying that his memory of his (00:09:16) childhood and our narrative of his (00:09:18) childhood are very different. (00:09:20) Yeah. (00:09:21) I never thought of that. I never thought (00:09:22) of that. I never thought of that. But he (00:09:24) said basically he has to be the narrator (00:09:27) of his own childhood. (00:09:29) Yeah. (00:09:29) So I mean the task of us as parents and (00:09:32) it's very difficult in our society (00:09:33) because I mean as a subtitle of the myth (00:09:35) of normal says trauma illness and (00:09:37) healing a toxic culture. This is a toxic (00:09:39) culture. This culture does not support (00:09:41) parenting. (00:09:42) It does not support healthy parenting in (00:09:45) so many ways (00:09:46) or working mothers. I mean (00:09:48) well in a look in the United States it's (00:09:50) scandalous. 25% of women have to go back (00:09:53) to work within two weeks of giving (00:09:55) birth. (00:09:56) Just terrible. (00:09:56) Which is a massive abandonment of (00:09:59) children because the child can only (00:10:00) experience it as an abandonment because (00:10:02) the child needs that mother. If you look (00:10:03) at how humans evolved, we evolved in (00:10:06) small band hunter gatherer groups and we (00:10:08) lived that way for millions of years (00:10:10) until very recently which means that (00:10:13) mothers were always around other mothers (00:10:15) and other parents and children were (00:10:17) around parents the whole day, adults the (00:10:19) whole day. So we grew up in communally (00:10:22) with the child being parented by the (00:10:23) whole community and young parents had (00:10:25) lots of support. Mhm. (00:10:27) So this whole idea of the nuclear family (00:10:29) and people living in an isolated fashion (00:10:31) and then both parents having to go to (00:10:33) work necessarily and the child is with (00:10:35) strangers the whole day and the parents (00:10:36) are stressed you know (00:10:38) trying yeah (00:10:39) struggling you know a lot of people I (00:10:41) mean maybe audience being entrepreneurs (00:10:43) you're possibly better off than the (00:10:45) average but (00:10:46) not necessarily I think most of the data (00:10:48) show most people are worse off actually. (00:10:50) Oh is that right? Okay. Well, that means (00:10:52) that they're struggling. (00:10:54) Yeah. (00:10:54) And the stress on the parents already (00:10:57) even in utero already the stress on the (00:11:00) mother during pregnancy that has an (00:11:03) impact on the child's brain development. (00:11:06) And so that the more stressed pregnant (00:11:08) mothers are, the more likely their kids (00:11:09) are to have mental health problems early (00:11:12) on in life, attention deficit, and other (00:11:13) problems. No, (00:11:15) because children absorb the stresses of (00:11:17) their parents and it's not a question of (00:11:18) blaming parents, but it's saying that (00:11:20) it's very hard to be a good parent in (00:11:22) this culture. (00:11:23) Yeah. Yeah. These are facts. I think the (00:11:25) science is pretty clear and consistent (00:11:27) about it. I've talked also about for (00:11:29) black women and black maternal health. (00:11:31) As you know, I have all the resources in (00:11:34) the world. I live down the street from (00:11:35) Vanderbilt and I was very worried about (00:11:37) preeacclampsia because the data is (00:11:39) really clear that regardless of income (00:11:41) level, if you're a black woman, you are (00:11:43) more likely to have preterm labor. (00:11:45) You're more likely for your child to (00:11:47) have a low birth weight just (00:11:50) regardless of income, which is because (00:11:52) of stress. (00:11:53) This is the stress of racism basically (00:11:55) is what it is. And the physiological (00:11:57) impacts are, as you say, scientifically (00:11:59) completely beyond doubt. They've been (00:12:01) demonstrated. Mhm. (00:12:03) There's a shocking fact in the United (00:12:05) States that black babies have a higher (00:12:08) rate of dying at birth than Caucasian (00:12:10) babies, which which rate is lowered if (00:12:13) they're delivered by a black physician. (00:12:15) That's right. (00:12:17) Black PJ and I worked very hard to find (00:12:21) and and as you say, it's regardless of (00:12:22) income. And black men, black men have a (00:12:25) higher risk of blood pressure problems. (00:12:27) And well, we could go on, but (00:12:29) the point is that our health, our (00:12:32) physiology is inseparable from our minds (00:12:35) and our emotional states (00:12:37) and our emotional states are inseparable (00:12:40) from the social cultural context in (00:12:42) which we live. So for example, in (00:12:45) indigenous women in Canada where I live, (00:12:47) they have six times the rate of (00:12:49) rheumatoid arthritis (00:12:50) than others. Black women who experience (00:12:53) racism in the states, the more racism (00:12:56) they have to endure, the higher the risk (00:12:58) for asthma. In other words, the (00:13:00) inflammation in the body that both (00:13:02) arthritis (00:13:04) and asthma represents (00:13:06) has to do with social factors and social (00:13:08) pressures. And it's in this context that (00:13:10) then people are trying to parent, (00:13:12) right? (00:13:12) And we know, for example, that the more (00:13:14) stressed parents are, the higher the (00:13:16) risk for asthma for the child. (00:13:18) Wow. And so how do we as parents as (00:13:21) people well I will say one a lot of (00:13:23) people are intentionally not becoming (00:13:25) parents. I will say we've talked about (00:13:26) that quite a bit on this podcast is is (00:13:28) the resources available the choices that (00:13:30) people are making. I talked about how I (00:13:32) was borderline at one point on if I (00:13:34) wanted to have children in this world (00:13:36) and I think part of that is because of (00:13:38) the acknowledgment of the responsibility (00:13:40) that parents have and the mothers have. (00:13:43) Um these are mostly women. Well, I'm (00:13:45) sure there's men that are choosing to be (00:13:46) childless, but the people who I'm (00:13:47) talking to oftentimes are women making (00:13:49) this choice. And there's a consciousness (00:13:51) that I don't know that was there (00:13:52) previously around all of these choices (00:13:55) that we have to make. And it is a choice (00:13:57) like it is a responsibility to raise (00:13:59) good human beings and to do your best. (00:14:01) And so I'm curious for someone who's a (00:14:03) high achiever, you know, I own my (00:14:06) business, so I work a lot, but I also (00:14:08) have the privilege of 10 years in where (00:14:10) I have a little bit more flexibility (00:14:11) than a normal 9 to5. I work from home. (00:14:13) You know, I have inhome child care and (00:14:15) yet I'm still struggling with (00:14:17) attachment. So, for example, next week (00:14:19) is the first week that I'm going to (00:14:20) spend a night away from the baby. So, (00:14:23) I'm flying to California and I leave at (00:14:26) 7:00 in the morning. He'll sleep alone. (00:14:28) Well, he'll sleep with his father and, (00:14:30) you know, in his house, but without me. (00:14:33) And then I take a flight back the next (00:14:35) morning, you know, to get back by (00:14:37) mid-afternoon. But I'm like so anxious (00:14:39) about it (00:14:40) and I just have this fear of him waking (00:14:43) up and looking around for me and I'm not (00:14:45) there. (00:14:45) Yeah. And he's going to be distressed by (00:14:47) that. And um (00:14:49) the saving grace is so what the child (00:14:51) needs is attachment. The child's brain (00:14:53) is wired for attachment. Attachment (00:14:55) meaning being close to somebody for the (00:14:57) sake of being taken care of. (00:14:58) That's the physical need of the infant (00:15:00) obviously, but it's also a deep (00:15:02) emotional need. Mhm. (00:15:04) And the biggest failure of this culture (00:15:07) is to provide for children's attachment (00:15:09) needs. (00:15:11) Again, how we evolved as human beings (00:15:13) was children were enscconced in a (00:15:15) network of attachments, not just to mom (00:15:17) and dad, but to uncles and aunts and (00:15:20) grandparents and so on. And you know, in (00:15:21) the context of the clan and the tribe, (00:15:24) there's the African saying, it takes a (00:15:25) village to raise a child. That's what (00:15:27) they're talking about. So it takes now (00:15:29) if your child has a safe attachment (00:15:32) relationship with his father, (00:15:36) then if you're not there for one night, (00:15:37) that's quite tolerable because the child (00:15:40) has another, you know, adult to attach (00:15:43) to and to feel safe with. (00:15:46) If that wasn't the case, the shock to (00:15:48) him would be far greater. (00:15:50) Yeah. (00:15:50) I don't know if you're breastfeeding or (00:15:52) not, but if you are, (00:15:53) yeah, he's going to, you know, sole. (00:15:57) It's gonna be a struggle. His father was (00:15:59) actually originally coming with me and (00:16:01) then as I was reading more about it, we (00:16:02) decided, you know, you it's best for you (00:16:05) to stay home. Yeah. (00:16:06) You've as you made the absolutely the (00:16:07) right decision. That child needs a (00:16:09) secure already established attachment (00:16:12) figure. (00:16:14) Yeah. Mhm. (00:16:14) And and that's what we talk about in the (00:16:17) book that just being republished, hold (00:16:19) on to your kids, why parents need to (00:16:22) matter more than peers, (00:16:23) is that in this culture, children lose (00:16:26) their attachment to their parents (00:16:27) because they don't see them the whole (00:16:28) day. (00:16:29) Mhm. (00:16:30) And they're lost and so that their (00:16:33) brains say, "Well, the parents are not (00:16:35) here. Who should I attach to?" They (00:16:38) attached to their peer groups. (00:16:40) And then we promote this with playdates (00:16:42) and all this kind of stuff. And so (00:16:44) basically gradually but very inexorably (00:16:49) children's attachment needs are (00:16:51) transferred from adults to each other (00:16:53) and now the game is lost because now you (00:16:56) have immature creatures influencing each (00:16:58) other (00:16:59) when they should be under the influence (00:17:01) of the parents. Now again in the clan (00:17:03) there'd be the grandparents around you (00:17:05) know they'd be the uncles and the aunts. (00:17:07) There'd be a whole web of adult (00:17:10) attachments. Mhm. (00:17:11) So this culture doesn't understand (00:17:14) attachment. You've lost the plot. (00:17:17) And so much of the parenting advice that (00:17:19) people get run counter to the child's (00:17:21) attachment needs like you mentioned the (00:17:23) letting them sleeping it out. (00:17:25) Yeah. The cry out. (00:17:28) Now you tell a mother cat to ignore the (00:17:30) baby's cries. (00:17:32) Or try and tell a mother orangutang to (00:17:34) ignore the baby's distress. you know, (00:17:37) you find out what mother rage is really (00:17:39) all about, you know, and so I understand (00:17:43) the impulse to train the baby to sleep (00:17:46) by not picking them up because the (00:17:48) parents have to go to work in the (00:17:49) morning and they don't have the support (00:17:51) of the clan and the tribe here, I'll (00:17:53) take the baby, I'll hold the baby for (00:17:55) you, (00:17:56) you know, so in the absence of that (00:17:58) parents think, okay, I have to just (00:17:59) basically ignore this kid till they go (00:18:02) back to sleep. So they learn not but (00:18:03) what's the message to the child is that (00:18:06) their emotions don't matter (00:18:07) and that they're not cared about. Those (00:18:10) implicit messages those emotional (00:18:12) imprints are ingrained in the child. (00:18:15) And so how do you (00:18:16) I mean if you if your partner if your (00:18:19) spouse was distressed and asking for (00:18:22) your help as an adult would you ignore (00:18:24) them? (00:18:25) No. (00:18:25) But why do we ignore the baby's (00:18:27) distress? Here's the thing. It's a bit (00:18:29) complex but attachment is this powerful (00:18:32) dynamic to keeps us close to each other. (00:18:35) Human beings need that especially (00:18:37) immature creatures need that. But we (00:18:39) need it throughout the lifetime. We need (00:18:41) friends. We need companions. We need (00:18:44) people around us, you know. (00:18:46) No, there's different ways of attaching. (00:18:49) Like you're not going to see your (00:18:50) husband for a night when you go (00:18:52) traveling. (00:18:53) But that's not going to interfere with (00:18:54) your relationship because you love each (00:18:56) other and you can hold that love in your (00:18:57) heart. Babies can't do that, (00:19:00) right? (00:19:00) The only way babies attach is physically (00:19:03) by hearing you, seeing you, smelling (00:19:05) you, touching you. (00:19:07) So that when the baby wants to be picked (00:19:09) up at night, it's not just to be fed. (00:19:13) It's actually they need that contact. (00:19:16) Yeah. Now you imagine in an adult (00:19:18) relationship what would happen if you (00:19:21) consistently ignore the other person's (00:19:23) needs and that adult is not as dependent (00:19:26) on you are as the baby because you for (00:19:28) the baby we are the world. So when we (00:19:30) the friends don't pick up that baby it's (00:19:32) the world is ignoring the baby that's (00:19:35) the baby experience it (00:19:36) that has an impact on their brains as a (00:19:39) physician I can tell you that or the (00:19:41) advice about timeouts you know that if (00:19:43) you don't behave well time out what's (00:19:45) the message the message to the child is (00:19:48) see children have these emotions we're (00:19:50) wired for emotions (00:19:52) we're wired for anger we're wired for (00:19:54) love we're wired for playfulness for (00:19:56) curiosity for fear not just we are wired (00:19:59) For these all mammals are wired for (00:20:01) them. We share that with other mammals. (00:20:03) One of the needs of the child is to be (00:20:05) able to experience all their emotions (00:20:08) and to be able to express them and to (00:20:10) have those needs validated and (00:20:12) understood by the adults. (00:20:13) No, that's right. (00:20:14) If an angry child is told, you can't be (00:20:16) with me when you're angry. Time out. (00:20:20) Message to the child is if I'm myself, (00:20:23) I'm rejected. (00:20:24) So in order to be accepted, I have to (00:20:26) suppress myself. Mhm. (00:20:28) which is a major source of pathology. (00:20:30) And in this culture, this is what we (00:20:32) tell parents all the time is to ignore (00:20:34) the child's attachment needs. (00:20:36) And we're saying in this book to hold on (00:20:38) to your kids or in my book, The Myth of (00:20:40) Normal, is that the attachment dynamic (00:20:43) is sacred. It's the most important thing (00:20:45) there is. It's more important than (00:20:47) anything else. And children who are well (00:20:49) attached to us, they will heed our (00:20:52) advice, that will look to us for (00:20:53) guidance, (00:20:55) that will be our disciples. So we don't (00:20:57) have to discipline them. They'll follow (00:20:59) us. (00:21:01) But if we undermine or ignore or don't (00:21:04) understand the value, appreciate the (00:21:06) attachment relationship, parenting (00:21:08) becomes so much more difficult and so (00:21:10) much more complicated, so much more (00:21:11) alienating, unsatisfactory and less (00:21:14) effective. And this culture undermines (00:21:17) the attachment relationship. And so much (00:21:19) of the parenting advice is then designed (00:21:22) to control the child's behavior rather (00:21:24) than to deepen the attachment (00:21:26) relationship. (00:21:27) That's right. So I'm curious for those (00:21:30) who might be listening where their (00:21:31) child's already five. (00:21:33) Yeah. (00:21:33) And so they've already gone through some (00:21:35) of these things. Maybe they sleep train (00:21:37) their child at six months old or four (00:21:39) months old. I have a girlfriend who told (00:21:40) me she sleep trained her child at like (00:21:42) six weeks old. And I said, "Wow, that's (00:21:44) intense." But she's got three kids. And (00:21:46) I'm like, "I get it." like, you know, (00:21:47) I I get it. I get it, too. (00:21:49) You know, and I can just hear the (00:21:52) question of like, okay, well, like (00:21:53) that's nice, but I do live in America. I (00:21:56) am an entrepreneur. I do have, you know, (00:21:58) maybe two other kids and I am (00:22:02) responsible for 50 employees. How do I (00:22:05) form an attachment or even heal some (00:22:07) attachment that I can already see in my (00:22:09) child's like behavior while balancing it (00:22:12) all? Like are there certain things that (00:22:13) have more impact than others that I can (00:22:15) do and incorporate into my routines and (00:22:18) my habits and my family? (00:22:19) Yeah. Well, first of all, you have a (00:22:21) decision to make. What is your highest (00:22:23) value? What is your deepest intention? (00:22:26) I'm telling you something. What we're (00:22:27) looking in the world these days, what (00:22:29) are we seeing? We're seeing more and (00:22:31) more kids diagnosed with attention (00:22:32) deficit hyperactive disorder with (00:22:34) anxiety, with depression, (00:22:36) suicide. It's off. thought to suicide (00:22:39) rates have been, you know, alarming for (00:22:41) a long time now. Alienation, bullying, (00:22:45) drug use. As a physician, I've dealt (00:22:48) with all this and I've written about all (00:22:49) this. (00:22:50) And the source of it all is childhood (00:22:53) dysfunction. (00:22:54) So, we have to make a decision. And I'm (00:22:56) going to tell you something. I wish I (00:22:58) had known this decades ago when my kids (00:23:01) are small. If we get the first three (00:23:03) years right, we're basically okay. And (00:23:05) if we don't, we're going to spend the (00:23:07) rest of their lives doing remedial (00:23:09) parenting. And the most important (00:23:11) dynamic in those first three years, (00:23:13) first five years is the attachment (00:23:15) relationship. (00:23:17) So you may be an entrepreneur and you (00:23:19) may have all these ambitions and (00:23:21) responsibilities, but if you decide that (00:23:24) the attachment relationship with your (00:23:25) child is primary, you're going to make (00:23:27) sure that every day you devote time to (00:23:29) it. Mhm. (00:23:30) Every day you hang out with that kid, (00:23:32) not for the purpose of instructing them (00:23:35) or um watching TV together or everybody (00:23:38) sitting there on their cell phones (00:23:39) isolated, but to relate to each other in (00:23:42) a warm, playful way. You're going to (00:23:44) find time every day to do that. (00:23:46) When you haven't seen your kids the (00:23:48) whole day, don't assume they're still (00:23:50) your kids (00:23:51) because the attachment relationship has (00:23:53) been attenuated somewhat. as Gordon (00:23:56) Newfeld, who's the main author of Hold (00:23:58) on to Your Kids, (00:24:00) the new edition of which is coming up as (00:24:03) we speak, that book has been published (00:24:04) in 40 languages now. And uh as he says, (00:24:08) collect them before you direct them. So (00:24:12) before you start telling your kid what (00:24:13) to do, bring them under your wings, you (00:24:16) know, get their eyes looking at your (00:24:18) eyes, get some smiles going, hug them, (00:24:20) hold them, play with them, then take (00:24:23) care of business, you know, so that (00:24:25) every day we have to hold that (00:24:27) attachment relationship supreme and make (00:24:30) sure that we water it. Water that plant (00:24:33) every day. That's the first thing, you (00:24:35) know. (00:24:35) Yeah. (00:24:36) The second thing is minimize technology. (00:24:39) These things are designed to be (00:24:41) addictive to the kid brain. And there've (00:24:43) been brain scans that show the impact of (00:24:47) digital media on kids brains. And they (00:24:51) interfere with learning, with (00:24:53) independent thought, with creativity. So (00:24:56) if I have I was a parent, I wouldn't let (00:24:58) them near a screen for years. Literally, (00:25:01) I would (00:25:02) the I think the science is two years. (00:25:04) It's like no screen time for two years. (00:25:06) Except I think people are making (00:25:07) exceptions for FaceTime because it shows (00:25:09) human interaction. (00:25:11) Oh well, if for example um if the (00:25:14) grandparents live in San Francisco and (00:25:16) you live in LA or something like that, (00:25:19) then that's great. Zoom or something, (00:25:21) you know, that's a wonderful attachment (00:25:24) adjunct. But except for human contact (00:25:27) with relevant people, I wouldn't let (00:25:28) them near a screen for years. (00:25:30) Wow. (00:25:30) And I would minimize the screen time (00:25:32) even later on, you know. So to come back (00:25:36) to your question about what does a busy (00:25:38) entrepreneur do? Well, if you understand (00:25:40) the importance of the attachment (00:25:42) relationship and how essential it is and (00:25:45) what costs you going to pay later on if (00:25:47) you don't attend to it, you would make (00:25:49) that a priority. (00:25:50) Mhm. (00:25:51) And when you're with them, be with them. (00:25:54) Not the way I was as a parent. When I (00:25:56) was with my kids, my beeper was with me. (00:25:58) I could be called any time. (00:26:00) My mom was always on the job. when (00:26:02) you're with them, be with them fully. (00:26:05) It sounds so simple and yet probably (00:26:07) some of the hardest things that many of (00:26:09) us will do is making that shift, you (00:26:11) know, because it does require a shift. (00:26:14) And I in fact actually hired a executive (00:26:16) coach to help me with that shift because (00:26:19) I was worried. I was a workaholic for 10 (00:26:22) years. You know, I used to live in the (00:26:24) Bay Area in LA and I moved to Nashville (00:26:26) where my parents live partially to (00:26:28) rebalance (00:26:30) and have a better center. But, you know, (00:26:32) you can I can get back in old habits (00:26:33) very quickly. Like, there was times when (00:26:35) I would sleep with my laptop in my bed. (00:26:37) That's how much I worked. You know, you (00:26:38) roll over, go to sleep, wake up, and get (00:26:40) back to it. And so, I think with a new (00:26:44) human being that I'm now responsible for (00:26:45) and his primary source of life, um, I (00:26:49) have to surround myself even more with (00:26:51) like, no, do not. These are your (00:26:53) boundaries. It's okay to say no. You (00:26:55) don't have to do these trips. I have to (00:26:57) go to New York next week. I'm going in (00:26:59) and out same day, you know, like just (00:27:01) trying as much as possible to stay with (00:27:04) the morning routines, the nighttime (00:27:05) routines, and to your point, (00:27:06) connectivity, but it is counterintuitive (00:27:10) to all of the inputs that I am getting (00:27:13) from so many people in the world and and (00:27:15) the request, you know. So, I would (00:27:18) phrase it differently. I mean, it's (00:27:20) actually intuitive (00:27:22) because it's actually countercultural, (00:27:24) but it's intuitive. (00:27:26) Um, (00:27:26) right. Yes. Because let me ask you a (00:27:28) question. If you just consulted your (00:27:29) heart, what would it tell you? (00:27:31) Oh, say snuggle all day. What are you (00:27:33) talking about? (00:27:34) Exactly. So that's the intuition. (00:27:36) Part of the toxicity of this culture (00:27:38) that I talk about is that it runs (00:27:40) counter to human heart and human (00:27:42) intuition. M (00:27:44) because if you look at those parents (00:27:46) look as a physician I used to advise (00:27:49) sleep training until I found out better (00:27:51) until I learned about how the human's (00:27:53) brain develops in interaction with the (00:27:55) emotional environment and what an impact (00:27:57) our relationships have on our (00:27:59) personalities and who we are and our (00:28:01) even how our brains develop. So I used (00:28:03) to give that advice. Now, when you talk (00:28:05) to parents who sleep train and if you (00:28:08) ask them, "What do you feel in your (00:28:10) heart when your baby's crying and you're (00:28:12) not picking them up?" They say, "My (00:28:14) heart is breaking." (00:28:15) Yeah. (00:28:16) Well, that's the intuition. That's the (00:28:19) parenting instinct. The toxicity of this (00:28:22) culture is that it tells people to (00:28:24) ignore their intuitions and to fit into (00:28:27) the cultural expectations (00:28:29) and the cultural demands. And not to (00:28:31) mention, as you alluded to earlier, it's (00:28:33) not even just a matter of preference for (00:28:35) a lot of people. It's just economic (00:28:36) necessity, (00:28:38) you know, I mean, (00:28:39) yeah, especially in America, (00:28:41) nobody wants to go back to work two (00:28:43) weeks after giving birth (00:28:45) if they have to. It's because they're (00:28:47) economically constrained to do so. (00:28:48) That's right. So, I want to transition (00:28:51) to another thread that you talk about, (00:28:52) which is the horizontal versus vertical (00:28:55) as it relates to peer groups. You know, (00:28:56) there's this common conversation of, you (00:29:00) know, socialize your kids or they need (00:29:02) siblings, they need playdates. If you're (00:29:04) a stay-at-home mom and your kids are at (00:29:06) home with you, you should have them in (00:29:08) daycare two, three times a week so that (00:29:09) they can socialize with other children. (00:29:11) I mean, that is like a very strong (00:29:14) cultural thing happening right now. (00:29:15) Share with me more kind of your thoughts (00:29:17) around that. (00:29:18) So, we talk about this in hold on to (00:29:20) your kids. This is completely contrary (00:29:22) to nature because when you look at human (00:29:24) development, there's a natural (00:29:26) progression. It's like a pyramid. The (00:29:28) basis of it has to be a secure (00:29:30) attachment. (00:29:31) That's the base of everything. The child (00:29:32) has to feel unconditionally loved, (00:29:34) accepted, welcomed, celebrated just for (00:29:37) existing (00:29:37) and enjoyed. (00:29:39) That's what the child needs. (00:29:40) Just wake up and you're perfect as you (00:29:43) are. (00:29:44) Exactly. (00:29:45) Yes. (00:29:45) So that secure attachment is the basis. (00:29:47) Now then comes what we call (00:29:49) individuation. Individuation is when the (00:29:52) child becomes their own person (00:29:54) and they have their own preferences, (00:29:56) their sense of themselves as separate (00:29:58) from the parent. Your baby doesn't have (00:30:00) a sense of themselves as separate from (00:30:02) you yet. That's developing. But that (00:30:05) development takes place over time. (00:30:08) You're in for a rude surprise. At one (00:30:10) and a half years of age, the kid's going (00:30:12) to start saying a word that's going to (00:30:14) drive you crazy. What do you think that (00:30:15) word's going to be? No. (00:30:17) No. Yeah. (00:30:20) Put your shoes on. No. Yeah. Dinner (00:30:23) time. No. No. That's nature's way of (00:30:27) making it sure that the child develops (00:30:30) their own personality. (00:30:32) And they first before they learn how to (00:30:34) say yes meaningfully, they have to learn (00:30:36) how to say no. Mhm. (00:30:38) Now, we can take that personally and try (00:30:40) and crush it and break it down in which (00:30:42) case we're asking for trouble (00:30:44) or we can work with it creatively in (00:30:46) which case we're helping the child (00:30:48) develop. So, the second tier of the (00:30:50) pyramid then is individuation. (00:30:53) Attachment has to be there all the way (00:30:55) throughout. Then comes individuation. (00:30:57) Then should come socialization. (00:31:00) In this society, we put socialization (00:31:03) ahead of individuation. We want these (00:31:05) kids to be socialized before they're (00:31:08) individuals. (00:31:09) Yeah. (00:31:10) But as an adult, you'll know that if you (00:31:13) don't know how to hold on to yourself, (00:31:15) then when you socialize, what's going to (00:31:17) happen? You can try and please everybody (00:31:19) else and fit in and be desperate for (00:31:21) acceptance, right? (00:31:23) And you won't have a sense of what's (00:31:24) important to you. (00:31:26) So, we don't have to socialize our kids. (00:31:28) That happens spontaneously (00:31:31) if their attachment is secure and (00:31:33) individuation is well on the way. So we (00:31:36) don't have to hurry it. We don't have to (00:31:38) move it along. (00:31:40) Independence is nature's agenda. Nature (00:31:43) has an agenda for your child. It's that (00:31:45) he should grow up to be an independent (00:31:46) person. Independent of you in contact (00:31:49) with you as long as you're alive, but (00:31:51) ultimately independent because you know (00:31:53) what? If nature's agenda is fulfilled, (00:31:56) he's going to live longer than you, (00:31:58) you know. So, they have to be (00:32:00) independent. So, independence is (00:32:02) nature's agenda for all creatures. We (00:32:05) don't have to push it. It's going to (00:32:07) happen. We have to provide the right (00:32:09) ground for its development. And that's (00:32:11) the secure attachment relationship and a (00:32:14) sense of healthy individuation. Then (00:32:16) they're going to socialize. So, here's (00:32:19) the problem with um I don't have any (00:32:21) problem with kids playing with other (00:32:22) kids. I mean that's natural. That's (00:32:24) always been the case, (00:32:26) right? (00:32:26) But in what context? In the hunter (00:32:29) gatherer group, kids used to play with (00:32:31) each other under the eyes and in the (00:32:34) presence of the nurturing adults. (00:32:36) Mhm. (00:32:37) So that the primary relationship with (00:32:39) the nurturing adults was maintained. (00:32:43) Mhm. (00:32:44) But when we send our kids out of the (00:32:45) home and be in daycare the whole day, (00:32:47) they don't see us. As I said, young kids (00:32:50) can only attach through the senses. When (00:32:52) they don't see us, they lose their sense (00:32:54) of attachment. Now, I don't know if you (00:32:56) know what happens to a duck. When the (00:32:58) duck is born, it hatches from the egg (00:33:01) and looks around and sees the mother (00:33:03) duck. (00:33:04) And then there's a process of what's (00:33:06) called imprinting. Imprinting means the (00:33:08) duckling says to himself, "This (00:33:10) creature, the mother duck is my mentor, (00:33:13) my guide, my protector, my nurturer. I'm (00:33:16) going to follow her, take my cues from (00:33:18) her." But what happens to the duckling (00:33:21) if the mother duck is not there? (00:33:22) Imprints on the first thing. (00:33:24) Exactly. Which could be a mechanical toy (00:33:26) or a dog or a horse. None of which are (00:33:29) designed by nature to bring up the (00:33:31) duckling. (00:33:32) So children's bane are the same. In the (00:33:34) absence of the parent, the child will (00:33:36) imprint on other kids. (00:33:38) And now you have kids orienting trying (00:33:41) to get their direction from each other (00:33:43) rather than nurturing adults. And not (00:33:45) only that, I'm trying to fit a lot of (00:33:47) information into a short space, but (00:33:49) attachment is bipolar. And by bipolar, I (00:33:53) don't mean like a disease. I mean like a (00:33:56) magnet. A magnet is two poles. One pole (00:33:58) attracts, (00:34:00) but the other pole repels. (00:34:02) When kids starts orienting and attaching (00:34:04) to other kids as their primary (00:34:06) attachment, they start pushing away from (00:34:09) the adults. (00:34:11) No, we label them oppositional. No, we (00:34:13) think they're bad kids. They're (00:34:15) disobedient kids. No, we put the (00:34:17) pressure on, try and coersse them into (00:34:20) the right behavior, cajol them, bribe (00:34:22) them, threaten them, time out them, (00:34:24) deprive privileges. (00:34:26) The more we do, the more we drive them (00:34:28) away from ourselves. And so that (00:34:30) do you believe that there's too much (00:34:32) attachment? Like this idea of mama's (00:34:34) boys and daddy's girls is do you believe (00:34:36) that there's ever too much? (00:34:38) Yes. It depends on whose purposes are (00:34:41) being served. If the mother and dad are (00:34:43) hovering and attaching to the kid to (00:34:45) serve their own needs, that can (00:34:47) overwhelm the child. But there's no too (00:34:49) much attachment from the child's point (00:34:50) of view. So there was an interesting (00:34:53) study that I quote in the myth of normal (00:34:56) where they look at young mothers and (00:34:58) babies interacting and they lay and most (00:35:01) mothers are quite adequate. They're (00:35:03) really good at with their kids into (00:35:05) playing and you know having fun and (00:35:07) making faces and so on. (00:35:08) Yeah. There's a smaller group are (00:35:10) inadequate. They're just detached. (00:35:13) Mhm. (00:35:13) Clearly their own trauma something. Then (00:35:15) there's a group of what they call super (00:35:17) moms and these are extra warm with their (00:35:20) kids. They hold them extra more. They're (00:35:22) more interactive. They're some are just (00:35:24) more present with them. They looked at (00:35:26) the kids 30 years later. The healthiest (00:35:29) ones were the kids of the super moms. (00:35:32) And and what the researchers concluded (00:35:34) is you can't love a child too much. So (00:35:38) you don't spoil a kid by giving them (00:35:40) lots of attachment. Now if you're doing (00:35:42) it like there are young mothers, I've (00:35:45) seen this in my medical practice, (00:35:47) teenage mothers (00:35:49) who are quite immature when they give (00:35:51) birth. They're lacking proper (00:35:53) attachments in their lives hoping that (00:35:55) the baby will (00:35:56) so that (00:35:57) will supply that. Now that's not healthy (00:36:00) for the child. The child is not there to (00:36:03) meet the needs of the parent. The (00:36:05) parents are there to meet the needs of (00:36:06) the child. So if there's a reversal of (00:36:08) that, yeah, but from the child's point (00:36:11) of view, you know, they can't you can't (00:36:13) give them too much attachment. You know (00:36:14) what? They'll tell you when it's too (00:36:16) much at a certain point. (00:36:18) At a certain (00:36:19) Yeah. They're enough, you know, and and (00:36:21) they'll say, "I'm going to lose by (00:36:23) myself." And you know, (00:36:25) so you can take your cues from the child (00:36:27) not to worry about it beforehand. (00:36:29) Yeah. I mean, I always tell people (00:36:31) during these podcasts, I'm like, they're (00:36:32) very selfish in nature because the topic (00:36:34) always winds up morphing into something (00:36:36) that I also need to hear and um so I I (00:36:39) really appreciate you sharing these (00:36:41) things. I want to shift gears to (00:36:43) psychedelics because it's something that (00:36:45) I've been very curious about and uh it's (00:36:47) becoming more and more prevalent in (00:36:49) terms of cultural conversations. You (00:36:51) know, Steve Jobs famously was someone (00:36:54) who used psychedelics and I think many (00:36:56) people who listen to this podcast have (00:36:57) studied Steve Jobs and many other (00:36:59) entrepreneurs have also been very vocal (00:37:00) about it. (00:37:02) Talk to me about your research and your (00:37:04) perspective on how psychedelics can play (00:37:06) a role in our understanding of selves (00:37:09) and also just our mindsets. (00:37:12) Well, let me just say first of all that (00:37:14) genius and creative um unique that he (00:37:17) was, I wouldn't want to hold Steve Jobs (00:37:19) as a model for anybody. He had a very (00:37:21) traumatic childhood (00:37:23) and that traumatic childhood affected (00:37:25) his whole life and how he worked (00:37:28) and from my point of view it also (00:37:31) contributed to his death you know his (00:37:33) cancer that's a whole other subject I (00:37:35) write about in some of my books you know (00:37:36) but so we can respect somebody and learn (00:37:39) from them but let's not just take it on (00:37:42) wholesale (00:37:43) I agree with you yeah I mean all the (00:37:45) stories that I've read is that he was a (00:37:46) very difficult challenging person had a (00:37:49) challenging life so Yes. Yeah. He was (00:37:51) somebody who had not worked out his (00:37:52) traumas, severe childhood traumas. Now, (00:37:56) psychedelics. So, I became interested in (00:37:58) psychedelics (00:38:00) 14 years ago. Now, my book on addiction (00:38:03) was published. It's called In the Realm (00:38:04) of Hungry Gross. (00:38:06) Mhm. (00:38:06) And I used to work with North America's (00:38:08) most concentrated area of drug use here (00:38:11) in the downtown east side of Vancouver, (00:38:12) British Columbia. People hooked on (00:38:14) heroin, crystal meth, coke, everything (00:38:16) you can name. These people are all (00:38:18) deeply traumatized and my view is that (00:38:21) addiction whether it's work in my case (00:38:25) or shopping or eating or drugs is a (00:38:28) attempt to deal with the pain of trauma. (00:38:31) Mhm. So it's in that context that after (00:38:33) I published that book in the realm of (00:38:35) hunger goes people kept asking me what (00:38:38) can you tell us about psychedelics and (00:38:39) the healing of addiction and I said (00:38:41) nothing because I nobody medical school (00:38:43) talked about that stuff (00:38:45) until finally the questions became so (00:38:47) insistent that I thought maybe I should (00:38:49) find out (00:38:51) and then I began to work with (00:38:52) psychedelics. uh first of all iawaska (00:38:54) which is a Brazilian or I should say (00:38:56) Amazonian plant (00:38:58) uh and then you know MDMA mushrooms and (00:39:01) so on and as you're aware in the last 20 (00:39:04) years or so there's been a huge (00:39:06) resurgence of research in the potential (00:39:08) healing capacities of psychedelics (00:39:11) and so in my new book the myth of normal (00:39:13) there's a chapter dedicated to (00:39:15) psychedelics (00:39:16) and that's because I've come to the (00:39:17) conclusion that potentially they can be (00:39:20) very powerful healing agents (00:39:23) in the right context (00:39:25) under the right guidance with the right (00:39:27) intention. (00:39:29) So psychedelics can be used as play (00:39:31) things as you know recreational things. (00:39:34) I'm not interested in that personally (00:39:36) but for healing purposes the reason that (00:39:39) can be so powerful is so much of our (00:39:41) behavior is unconscious. Like when you (00:39:43) say you're a workaholic, that's (00:39:46) something is driving you (00:39:48) or in my case, you know, and and that (00:39:50) drivenness has an unconscious source. (00:39:54) So many of our decisions we think are (00:39:57) free (00:39:59) deliberately arrived at conclusions. (00:40:02) Uh-uh. So much of what we do, who we (00:40:04) choose as a partner, how we react to our (00:40:07) partner, how we relate to our work, how (00:40:10) we react to our kids, how we feel about (00:40:12) ourselves, so much is determined by (00:40:14) unconscious factors. (00:40:16) Mhm. (00:40:16) That we're not aware of by definition. (00:40:19) Mhm. (00:40:19) And at a certain point, our life's not (00:40:21) working and say, "What the heck's going (00:40:22) on here?" Which is certainly what (00:40:24) happened to me. (00:40:25) Mhm. (00:40:25) Psychedelics, no matter which ones we're (00:40:28) talking about, can help remove the (00:40:29) membrane between the conscious and the (00:40:31) unconscious. So we actually get to see (00:40:33) what's underneath our reactions, our (00:40:36) behaviors, and our emotions. (00:40:38) That could be tremendously liberating. (00:40:40) We also get to see potentially our (00:40:43) wholeness and our nonbrokenness (00:40:46) that underneath all this dysfunction and (00:40:49) trauma and anxiety and fear and whatever (00:40:52) is driving us, there's actually a (00:40:54) purity. There's actually a a (00:40:56) wholeheartedness that we can actually (00:40:57) get in touch with. So we get to see both (00:41:00) the fears, terrors, rages, anxieties (00:41:03) that drive us unconsciously, but we get (00:41:06) to see that underneath it all there's (00:41:08) something really good and solid and (00:41:10) permanent. Not permanent, but enduring. (00:41:12) Nothing is permanent. So there's been a (00:41:14) lot of research on MDMA dealing with (00:41:17) post-traumatic stress disorder. There's (00:41:19) an African plant. The New York Times had (00:41:21) an article about it just a week before (00:41:23) we speak now called iOS. (00:41:27) Well, it's got a unique quality and I've (00:41:29) seen it. And as a former addiction (00:41:32) physician, this frustrates the heck out (00:41:34) of me. (00:41:36) Which comes from Gabon in Africa. You (00:41:38) know what it can do? You can take a (00:41:40) heroin addict who's been using shooting (00:41:42) heroin for 20 years. You give them a (00:41:44) bogga and after one night they don't (00:41:46) have any withdrawal symptoms. I know (00:41:48) you're looking at me like I'm nuts. (00:41:50) Yes, I am. (00:41:51) Don't take my word for it. It's been (00:41:52) studied. It's being used right now in a (00:41:55) number of places in the world, including (00:41:57) just south of San Diego and Mexico (00:42:00) because it's illegal in the States. And (00:42:02) I've seen it myself. Now, (00:42:04) is that 100%. No. Let's say it's only (00:42:07) 60%. That makes it 10 time better than (00:42:09) No. That doesn't mean that the work of (00:42:11) addiction healing is over because as I (00:42:14) said driving that addiction is some kind (00:42:16) of a pain, (00:42:17) some kind of a trauma. (00:42:18) But at least you're not using anymore. (00:42:20) Now you can work on your trauma. (00:42:22) That's right. (00:42:22) You know, psychedelics (00:42:24) whether it's Iawaska, MDMA, mushrooms, (00:42:27) peyote, ibogga, they can really help to (00:42:31) work through the trauma in the right (00:42:34) context with the right leadership, with (00:42:36) the right guidance. I have to really (00:42:38) emphasize that. And when you say right (00:42:40) leadership guidance, I just want to be (00:42:41) more explicit for those who don't know (00:42:43) what we're talking about. There are (00:42:44) retreats. There are guides that you can (00:42:46) do this with. You don't need to just (00:42:47) like go buy mushrooms off the street and (00:42:50) take them. That's not what we're talking (00:42:51) about here. (00:42:53) If you're talking about serious healing, (00:42:54) I don't recommend doing this on your (00:42:56) own. I mean, people have, you know, (00:42:58) people have trips and mushrooms and but (00:43:00) if you're looking for healing, I'd look (00:43:02) at trained healers. uh in the case of (00:43:04) peyote or Iawaska I look for people who (00:43:07) are shamans who are deeply trained in (00:43:09) that tradition a tradition that goes (00:43:11) back hundreds and hundreds of years uh (00:43:14) in the case of MDMA a lot of therapists (00:43:16) are training now to work with MDMA and (00:43:20) actually (00:43:20) do this outside of the United States I (00:43:22) assume for it to be (00:43:23) no no in the US now your health (00:43:26) authorities are fasttracking MDMA now to (00:43:29) be used for PTSD because the medical (00:43:31) PTSD treatments are so ineffective and (00:43:34) the need is so great (00:43:36) and the results are so good that these (00:43:39) studies that have been done legally now (00:43:41) with MDMA are really being fasttracked (00:43:44) now in in the US and Canada and (00:43:46) elsewhere so you know a lot of people (00:43:48) are training in psychedic therapy now so (00:43:50) there's a huge potential there now do I (00:43:53) think they're the panacea no they're not (00:43:55) they're not for everybody nothing is for (00:43:57) everybody (00:43:58) and uh access will be a problem because (00:44:00) they're expensive (00:44:02) as always you know but is there (00:44:04) potential there there's a huge potential (00:44:06) there and you know and again in the myth (00:44:08) of normal I talk about my own experience (00:44:10) with psychedelics and what I've seen as (00:44:12) a clinician and uh on the whole it's (00:44:14) positive as long as we're careful (00:44:18) well I appreciate you sharing that I (00:44:19) have been exploring how I wanted to try (00:44:22) it out but still researching and (00:44:23) everything so (00:44:24) well you can reach out to me privately (00:44:26) if you want some more specific advice (00:44:28) yeah I go to Costa Rica often like a (00:44:30) month out of the year (00:44:31) okay Well, in Costa Rica, I can give you (00:44:33) a good place in Costa Rica to go to (00:44:34) place called Sultara. S O L T A R A (00:44:38) and they use traditional shamans from (00:44:41) South America. (00:44:42) Mhm. (00:44:42) I don't have a financial relationship (00:44:44) with them, just to let you know, but I (00:44:46) do send people there on scholarship (00:44:48) because they do such a good job. In (00:44:50) Peru, there's a place called the Temple (00:44:52) of the Way of Light. I recommend that as (00:44:54) well for Iawaska. So, those are they're (00:44:57) not the only two places, but they're two (00:44:58) places that I know. and certainly Sultan (00:45:00) and Costa Rica. It's a beautiful place. (00:45:02) I sent somebody there on a scholarship (00:45:04) just last week. I just heard back from (00:45:06) them. A woman with breast cancer (00:45:07) actually (00:45:08) and her life has totally changed. (00:45:11) That's really awesome. We didn't even (00:45:12) get to like half the things I had on my (00:45:14) short list, but this has just been for (00:45:17) me just a really special, you know, hour (00:45:19) with you and I appreciate your time. I (00:45:22) appreciate your work and I have some (00:45:24) ordering to do on Amazon for myself and (00:45:26) my partner. Uh and so how can others (00:45:29) connect with you with your work with (00:45:32) your new additions and of course your (00:45:34) social as well? (00:45:35) So on Instagram I think it's Gabriate (00:45:38) MD. My website is Dr. Gabromate wgabate. (00:45:43) Literally dozens of my talks have been (00:45:45) uploaded on YouTube so you can watch (00:45:47) them on psychedelics on trauma on child (00:45:50) development on addictions on current (00:45:53) issues in Palestine Israel. A lot of my (00:45:56) talks are on there. I've written five (00:45:58) books published in 40 languages now, (00:46:01) bestsellers all over the world. The the (00:46:03) one that's been a focus of this (00:46:05) conversation is Hold on to Your Kids, (00:46:07) Why Parents Need to Matter More Than (00:46:09) Peers. It's got a new edition coming up (00:46:11) in early April. I'm not the main author, (00:46:14) by the way. That's a brilliant (00:46:16) psychologist friend of mine, Gordon (00:46:17) Eufeld, but I'm totally aligned with his (00:46:19) work. And the other book of mine that I (00:46:21) mentioned is called The Myth of Normal: (00:46:23) Trauma, Illness, and Healing. a toxic (00:46:25) culture. I have three other books. I'm (00:46:28) not going to mention them now, but you (00:46:30) can find them easily. They're out there. (00:46:32) Uh, and my work is hard to miss. (00:46:34) I look forward to also reading all of (00:46:36) those and your future book reading that (00:46:39) with my dad. (00:46:41) Yeah, my son and I are writing a book (00:46:43) called uh Hello Again, a fresh start for (00:46:45) parents and adult children. And you know (00:46:48) why? Because we've had our own stuff to (00:46:49) work out. (00:46:50) Yeah, that's awesome. Well, thank you (00:46:52) for your time. And for those of you all, (00:46:54) I would encourage you to watch this