Why You Should Let Your Kids Take Risks – Lenore Skenazy (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:01) Lenor Scanazi, welcome in a sense back. (00:00:06) In a sense, it it's not in a sense, it's (00:00:08) in reality. I've talked with you before. (00:00:10) I've met you many times and we have (00:00:12) video on demand of you and me having (00:00:14) this same conversation about three years (00:00:16) ago. Well, I think that (00:00:20) um one of the things that's so (00:00:22) interesting about the times we live in (00:00:23) is that some important ideas need to be (00:00:26) said over and over again, maybe forever. (00:00:29) And (00:00:30) that's Jerry, right? Well, you know, (00:00:33) there's certain there's certain areas of (00:00:35) debate that never seem to go away. (00:00:37) That's true. And uh but also, you know, (00:00:39) we didn't really get a chance to sit (00:00:41) down like this and and explore together. (00:00:45) We did release, which we'll put a link (00:00:47) to in the comments, um the short film (00:00:50) that we'll talk talk about a little bit, (00:00:52) Off the Rails, telling some of your (00:00:54) story. Um, but we can start there, (00:00:58) right? Because you are known as the (00:01:02) world's worst mom. Originally, I was (00:01:04) just America's worst mom. Then I got (00:01:06) bumped up. Great. You know, you get a (00:01:08) little older, prestige, you get some (00:01:09) awards, suddenly you're the world's (00:01:10) worst mom. Yeah. Why? Why? Uh because a (00:01:15) long time ago when our younger son was (00:01:17) nine, not our me and John, but our me (00:01:20) and my husband's son was nine, he wanted (00:01:22) us to take him someplace he'd never been (00:01:24) before and let him find his own way home (00:01:27) by subway here in New York City where we (00:01:29) live. And um we did it. Long story (00:01:32) short, I took him to a fancy department (00:01:34) store, Bloomingdales. I left him. (00:01:36) Bloomingdales is above a subway stop. He (00:01:39) took the subway down. He took the bus (00:01:41) across. He came into our apartment. (00:01:43) levitating with excitement that he'd (00:01:46) done something grown up in the real (00:01:47) world. And I wrote a column about it, (00:01:49) why I let my nine-year-old ride the (00:01:51) subway alone. And two days later, I was (00:01:53) on the Today Show, MSNBC, Fox News, and (00:01:56) NPR defending myself and getting this (00:01:59) America's Worst Mom nickname. So, I came (00:02:02) across you and your story. Um, I would (00:02:06) have thought I would have come across it (00:02:07) on Reason magazine, which you are (00:02:09) contributing. I didn't write for her (00:02:10) then. No, I I heard about you first (00:02:14) through um the coddling of the American (00:02:16) mind. That's the first time you heard (00:02:18) about me. Okay. That's that's late in (00:02:19) the game. It is late in the game. And (00:02:21) and I uh and so (00:02:24) I was observing in my own, you know, at (00:02:28) that time middle school son uh that he (00:02:32) was actually doing okay, but his peers (00:02:34) were sort of nervous wreck. And I was (00:02:36) thinking back to why are they nervous? I (00:02:38) remember being at this age and yeah, (00:02:40) you're uncomfortable and but the (00:02:43) nervousness the the like (00:02:46) sheepishness that I was observing the (00:02:49) like it would just seemed very very (00:02:51) different and and the psychological talk (00:02:54) the the self- diagnosis of this and that (00:02:57) that that was all new and so Jonathan (00:03:00) height and Greg Luciano wrote this book (00:03:01) and in it they among other things they (00:03:04) tell your story and and your story of (00:03:08) letting Izzy take the subway actually (00:03:12) led me and Lisa to allow our son pretty (00:03:15) close to that age to take the bus up to (00:03:18) an internship halfway across town. I (00:03:20) didn't know that. And um Wow, that's so (00:03:22) great. And and and the funny thing (00:03:25) is he I wish he was actually here to (00:03:28) tell it because it's really funny. He he (00:03:31) he got this internship that I think it (00:03:33) was like in seventh grade. How do you (00:03:34) get an internship in seventh grade? (00:03:36) because he went to an he went to a good (00:03:37) school that actually thinks child labor (00:03:40) is good, which I agree. I'd agree, too. (00:03:42) Um, Actton Academy. So, Oh, I love (00:03:45) Actton. So, he So, yeah. So, they have (00:03:47) this, you know, they have (00:03:48) apprenticeships that they encourage the (00:03:50) kids starting in middle school to do. (00:03:52) And he got one, but it was like way (00:03:54) north of us. We live at, you know, at (00:03:55) this point we live in Austin. And we (00:03:58) said, Matteo, you're gonna have to do (00:03:59) like a Lenor Scanasian. Like an Izzy (00:04:01) Scanian and Yeah, exactly. That's right. (00:04:03) and take a take take public transit (00:04:05) because you're you're gonna impose hours (00:04:07) of extra driving on us and we don't want (00:04:08) to do that and you can't drive. Yeah. (00:04:11) And he can't drive himself at that (00:04:12) point. And his stories were sometimes a (00:04:15) little harrowing like people coming on (00:04:17) the bus who were like strung out on (00:04:19) drugs and like falling on their face. (00:04:21) Somebody coming up and said like want (00:04:23) like preaching to him and being (00:04:25) completely wacky. Like his stories were (00:04:28) really funny. But you when he tells (00:04:30) them, you could see it's like I got to (00:04:32) experience this thing by myself. What's (00:04:35) amazing is that he has stories, right? (00:04:37) It's not like I got taken to soccer and (00:04:41) then I played the game for my coach and (00:04:42) then I got taken home and then I had to (00:04:45) do my homework and then my mom had to (00:04:46) time me on my reading log and then I ate (00:04:48) the dinner and then I went to bed. (00:04:50) That's what I worry that there's very (00:04:52) few stories that kids today get to tell. (00:04:54) When I when I preach what I preach, (00:04:56) which is that children need more (00:04:57) independence, everybody goes into a (00:04:59) revery about their own childhood and oh (00:05:02) my god, the things we did. It's amazing. (00:05:03) I'm alive now. And first of all, they (00:05:07) they are proud of what they did and they (00:05:11) loved it. and they have these memories (00:05:14) of, you know, exploits, you know, and (00:05:17) near misses and stupid decisions and (00:05:21) excitement and and they say, "But I (00:05:23) could never let my own kids do that." Or (00:05:25) if my mom had known. It's like, "Your (00:05:27) mom knew. Your mom knew you were in the (00:05:29) woods. Your mom knew you experimented (00:05:31) with things." And and yet she let you do (00:05:33) it because we didn't think that kids (00:05:35) were so fragile that if they made one (00:05:38) bad decision or one bad friend or one (00:05:41) bad bus trip that would be the end. And (00:05:43) so no. So I'm just pleased that your son (00:05:46) had these great stories to tell and I'm (00:05:49) sure he'll be telling them forever. (00:05:51) All right, I'll keep this quick. If you (00:05:53) like what you're hearing and want to (00:05:55) hear more, don't forget to hit that like (00:05:57) button and subscribe to the channel so (00:05:59) you won't miss our new content as it (00:06:00) comes out every week. And now back to (00:06:03) the (00:06:04) conversation. It It's interesting (00:06:09) that we have moved towards this kind of (00:06:14) safety mindset (00:06:17) um not just in America, but I think more (00:06:19) broadly, although America does seem to (00:06:21) be the worst. Yeah. Right. There's a (00:06:23) book I came across uh I think it was (00:06:26) called Octung Baby. Oh, yeah. About (00:06:28) Germany. Yeah. Yeah. So, an American who (00:06:31) who had her kids when while she was (00:06:33) working in Germany for like eight years (00:06:34) and came home to like Idaho and was like (00:06:38) I thought America was a free society. (00:06:40) Germany was a freer society than America (00:06:42) as it pertains to there. First of all, (00:06:44) there's every book. There's about the (00:06:46) Japanese kids. There's about the kids in (00:06:47) France. There's the kids in Finland. And (00:06:50) um what is sad is that when I (00:06:53) interviewed kids who lived abroad who (00:06:55) then came back here, they felt like they (00:06:58) were constricted. I once interviewed a (00:06:59) mom whose kid had lived just till age (00:07:02) four in another country and when she (00:07:04) came back here and is suddenly being put (00:07:06) in a car seat and you know five point (00:07:08) straps like you're going off to Mars, (00:07:09) right? Um even that kid felt like she (00:07:12) just suddenly her world, you know, just (00:07:15) became much smaller. (00:07:17) So, why has this happened? Oh, I know (00:07:21) this is this is why you're here. This is (00:07:23) my sweet spot. Right. So, actually, I'll (00:07:25) tell you the four reasons that are in, (00:07:27) you know, my book, Freerange Kids. But, (00:07:30) um, and viewers should understand that (00:07:31) you really are the (00:07:33) um, if not the singular one of the (00:07:36) leading creators of the freerange (00:07:39) parenting movement. So, I mean, that's (00:07:41) listeners should know that I have the (00:07:43) trademark on the f the phrase freerange (00:07:46) kids. So you are the you are the (00:07:48) originator. I'm the I'm the free ranger. (00:07:51) I'm not the free ranger. I'm the you (00:07:53) know trademarker of that. But I called (00:07:56) my book after after the bruhaha of (00:07:59) putting my son on the subway and writing (00:08:00) the column and getting all this calumny. (00:08:02) Is that how you pronounce it? Calumny. (00:08:04) Why am I saying that word? Nobody uses (00:08:06) it. I don't even know what that word (00:08:07) means. Oh, it doesn't matter. All this, (00:08:08) you know, being bad now, right? Being (00:08:10) rad over the coals, which is calumny or (00:08:13) whatever it is. Um, I started applying (00:08:15) this Victorian English that we're going. (00:08:17) That's where we're going. You said you (00:08:18) were you were finding yourself being (00:08:19) more and more old school. I'm going back (00:08:21) to like the 1870s now. It was a better (00:08:23) time. Yeah. Yeah. Would have had Right. (00:08:26) You know, you got to wear a hat all the (00:08:27) time. You never had to worry about your (00:08:28) hair. I do regret three-piece suits were (00:08:30) more common. That that was You know (00:08:31) what? Men dressed way better. I actually (00:08:34) like the way men dressed in Hamilton. I (00:08:36) wish you were wearing that. But be that (00:08:38) as it may, what happened? I let my kid (00:08:40) ride the subway. I got raked over the (00:08:41) coals. Then I started a blog and I (00:08:44) called it Freerange Kids. Then I wrote (00:08:45) the book Freerange Kids. And I'm a (00:08:47) reporter by trade. And so I really (00:08:49) wanted to find out how did we get so (00:08:51) much more afraid than my mom was and (00:08:55) probably your mom was back in the day. (00:08:57) And I I don't know what age you walked (00:08:59) to school, but I walked to school at age (00:09:00) five. Did you? I can remember as early (00:09:04) as I think second grade walking to and (00:09:08) from school. Okay. So that's seven. (00:09:10) Yeah. Right. You're a little slow. I (00:09:11) started at five and no girls girls (00:09:13) mature faster at the early five we're (00:09:16) practically ready to rule the world. (00:09:17) Anyways, when I was a 5-year-old and I (00:09:19) walked I turned around the corner and (00:09:20) then I had to cross a street and the (00:09:23) crossing guard was (00:09:26) a kid. Yeah. Right. You remember that? (00:09:29) That's right. That's right. Right. (00:09:30) Right. Right. Now in my neighborhood the (00:09:32) probably nineyear-old maybe maybe 13. (00:09:34) Well, here's the weird thing. Um he was (00:09:37) 10 because the school went up till like (00:09:38) fifth grade and and I married mine which (00:09:42) nobody understands. It's like I married (00:09:44) him many years later and I married your (00:09:47) crossing guard. I married my crossing (00:09:48) guard but it wasn't like you the parents (00:09:50) are like that's why we don't want to (00:09:51) have crossing you know kids around men. (00:09:54) It's not that. He was a 10-year-old. I (00:09:55) was a 5-year-old. We married and years (00:09:57) later we realized that oh my god I (00:09:59) didn't know you were a crossing guard. (00:10:00) Did you cross, you know, I was at this (00:10:02) corner. I crossed that corner and I'm (00:10:04) five years younger. So be that as it (00:10:06) may, in that day we could trust up (00:10:10) parents like the social norm was to let (00:10:13) your kids go and do things without (00:10:15) constant supervision. And now that's not (00:10:18) the norm anymore. We feel like kids who (00:10:20) are unsupervised are automatically in (00:10:23) danger. So how did we get from there to (00:10:24) here? I think the I'll whip you through (00:10:28) the four reasons, right? One is that the (00:10:30) media, right? The media loves if it (00:10:32) bleeds it leads. And that really started (00:10:34) in the 70s there. Um I was just reading (00:10:37) about this recently that in Philadelphia (00:10:39) they came up with a new TV news format (00:10:42) and it was called Eyewitness News on one (00:10:44) station and it was called action news at (00:10:47) another station but both started in (00:10:48) Philly. You're from Philly. I am. So I (00:10:50) remember I mean I have a like eyewitness (00:10:52) news like triggers childhood things. (00:10:54) Triggers is the word. That's right. (00:10:56) Right. So secretly traumatized by it. (00:10:58) Right. Well, the whole country seems to (00:10:59) have been traumatized it and perhaps the (00:11:01) world because what they realized was the (00:11:02) easiest way to get viewers and to get (00:11:05) content was to just use the police (00:11:07) scanner, find something horrible (00:11:09) happening somewhere, race over to there, (00:11:11) stand there with a microphone and look (00:11:12) upset because it was probably pretty (00:11:14) upsetting. There was, you know, a (00:11:15) stabbing or a murder or a fire or (00:11:17) something, somebody falling out of a (00:11:19) window. The mayor has firebombed an (00:11:21) entire neighborhood, right? Well, (00:11:23) that's right. The thing is that it even (00:11:25) happened in Idaho. Everybody started (00:11:27) doing this particular format of news. (00:11:29) And then in the 80s is when you get the (00:11:31) spread of cable television, which is the (00:11:33) first 24-hour news cycle, and you have (00:11:35) to come up with things that people will (00:11:36) watch all the time. People will watch (00:11:38) stuff that makes them scared, horrified, (00:11:40) angry. Why? Because people love being (00:11:42) scared, horrified, and angry. They like (00:11:44) fulminating. Um, they like seeing what (00:11:47) they believe is reality. And of course, (00:11:48) if this is what you keep seeing, there's (00:11:50) actually something called mean world (00:11:52) syndrome. Have you heard of that? I (00:11:54) think that was actually another guy in (00:11:55) in Philly. Um I can't remember his name, (00:11:58) but there was a sociologist who (00:12:00) discovered something um that seems (00:12:02) pretty obvious in retrospect, which is (00:12:04) that if you're watching TV and and (00:12:07) things seem really horrible and it seems (00:12:09) like a very mean world out there. You (00:12:11) don't want to go out there, so you stay (00:12:13) inside and you watch more TV, which (00:12:15) shows you a mean world. And so it's (00:12:17) called mean world syndrome. It's the (00:12:19) idea that you've been bathed in so much (00:12:22) bad news that that's what you believe (00:12:24) the world is. And frankly, it would be (00:12:26) terrible television to show you (00:12:28) everybody else's day. The kid who walked (00:12:30) to school and walked home and had a (00:12:32) snack and did his homework is not (00:12:33) interesting. And so you're always (00:12:35) finding these horrible stories and they (00:12:37) are really anomalous. Somebody once said (00:12:39) to me, "If a Martian came down and said, (00:12:41) "Tell I don't know why Martians are (00:12:43) robots, but it's like tell me about your (00:12:45) world." And it's like, well, do you want (00:12:47) to see how like (00:12:48) 99.9% of America lives or do you want to (00:12:51) see the one point, you know, the 0.1% (00:12:53) that's just a disaster? And he says, (00:12:56) I'll see the one point, you know, the (00:12:57) 0.1. And then it's like, well, let's (00:12:58) turn on the TV. Let's go to the (00:13:00) internet, you know, let's see what's, (00:13:01) you know, what's trending on Twitter. (00:13:03) And so you really get this um outsized (00:13:06) view of crime and misery and a very um (00:13:10) it it's almost you're unable to picture (00:13:13) how benal and simple and and safe most (00:13:16) of life is. It it does feel like some of (00:13:21) this is um and I know this is kind of (00:13:23) like a easy place to go and extrapolate (00:13:28) all kinds of theories. the sort of evop (00:13:31) evolutionary psychology. Oh well, we're (00:13:34) risk averse or we're threat aware (00:13:36) because it's how we kept right. If you (00:13:38) heard there was a Russell and you better (00:13:40) assume it's a lion because if it was if (00:13:42) it was Yeah. being afraid of the dark is (00:13:44) because there's probably like a snake (00:13:46) that's going to kill you or a bear. Like (00:13:48) there's these things that (00:13:50) um are truthy. Whether they're exactly (00:13:53) true or even provable is the harder (00:13:56) question. But it does seem to be the (00:13:58) case that that is a hardwired part of (00:14:01) our psychology to be biased towards the (00:14:04) negative, to have a negativity bias. Um, (00:14:08) for sure it is. And if you've read the (00:14:10) power of bad, have you read that by John (00:14:12) Tierney? It's it says that, but in more (00:14:14) pages. I mean, and I one and we even (00:14:17) find it even here on YouTube, which is (00:14:20) you want to have your thumbnails be (00:14:23) provocative, of course. And and and the (00:14:26) the best way you can hack someone into (00:14:28) hearing (00:14:29) something less provocative or more maybe (00:14:32) uplifting, right, is hook them with (00:14:34) something. You won't believe what she (00:14:35) said next. Yeah. Or, you know, you name (00:14:39) it. But if like predators hate her, Yes. (00:14:43) Yes. Yes. Look out sex traffickers. (00:14:46) Right. Right. Your worst nightmare is (00:14:48) coming or something. Right. That (00:14:49) happened to her kid. Yeah. Right. Um so (00:14:52) you've got the news. All right. So you (00:14:54) got the news, the media is out there, (00:14:55) you live in a latigious society and we (00:14:57) all start sort of thinking like lawyers (00:14:59) and you think like, well, how would I (00:15:01) ever defend myself and we just get to (00:15:04) the point where almost nothing seems (00:15:05) safe. And sometimes I comb through the (00:15:07) uh Consumer Product Safety Commission (00:15:09) warnings, you know, and recalls. And I (00:15:11) should have done that before today and I (00:15:13) didn't. So I'll just have to remember an (00:15:14) old one, which was when they recalled um (00:15:17) Oh my god, there's so many good ones. (00:15:18) They recalled like 140,000 children's (00:15:21) sweatshirts. Why? (00:15:24) I I I hesitate to guess. The reason is (00:15:28) because there was a zipper on them. (00:15:30) People usually think it's the um those (00:15:32) strings, you know, the drawstrings, but (00:15:34) this one had a zipper pull that fell (00:15:36) off. One of them had a zipper pull that (00:15:38) fell off and that posed a joking hazard. (00:15:41) Okay. Do you think your grandma would (00:15:42) have said, "Here's a button. I know it's (00:15:44) don't play with it. It's a joking (00:15:45) hazard." I mean, we just sort of (00:15:47) redefine everything in terms of the (00:15:49) really worst case scenario. I uh I I I (00:15:52) brought this up in another video (00:15:54) actually that my early in our marriage, (00:15:56) my my wife Lisa started a cloth diaper (00:15:59) company. She started a company. Wow. (00:16:01) Yeah. Was making cloth diapers. They (00:16:03) were called we huggers and it was really (00:16:04) cute because like the little wraps were (00:16:06) like these little mitten hands. So they (00:16:08) were adorable and she got them into like (00:16:10) 75 stores and stuff. Wait. And then she (00:16:13) had to recall them because one of them (00:16:15) had a thread. Well, she didn't. But the (00:16:17) Consumer Product Safety Commission had (00:16:19) some lead paint in Chinese toys scare. I (00:16:22) think this was around (00:16:24) 2009. And you know who got screwed by (00:16:28) that? Like the the Melissa Well, yes. (00:16:31) But the like everyone that made things (00:16:33) that had nothing to do with that, like (00:16:35) the wooden blocks that don't have paint (00:16:38) suddenly needed to get tested for lead (00:16:39) paint. Oh, yeah. Garments that don't (00:16:41) have paint need to be tested for paint. (00:16:44) And it's just it's just this hyper (00:16:47) worstc case (00:16:49) scenario. Rational thought cost benefit (00:16:52) be damned detached from reality. Yeah. (00:16:54) Now if you've seen like there's um (00:16:56) there's necklaces with a little say (00:16:58) there's a fish you know little datad on (00:17:00) it. It'll say not for anyone under 13 (00:17:03) because the assumption is that because (00:17:05) there's a little bit of white paint (00:17:07) which is made from lead in the eyeball (00:17:09) of the fish. That's the bobble on the (00:17:12) necklace. somebody's going to eat them (00:17:14) and it's going to be somebody under 13 (00:17:15) because two-year-olds and 12y olds are (00:17:17) apparently all the exact same and that (00:17:20) if you eat I don't know 30 million of (00:17:22) them, you know, which I I think there'd (00:17:24) be problems like eating all those (00:17:26) necklaces, right? But the problem is the (00:17:29) lead in the eyeball of the of the fish. (00:17:32) So, it is this it it drives me nuts (00:17:36) because it's not real safety, but if you (00:17:38) say, "Oh my god, it doesn't matter." (00:17:39) Somebody say, "You don't care about lead (00:17:41) poisoning." It's like I do care about (00:17:42) lead poisoning. I'm happy that lead is (00:17:45) not being, you (00:17:47) know, put into the air by horrible (00:17:49) gasoline, leaded gasoline. And I do (00:17:52) think that if lead paint is all chipping (00:17:55) off your walls, you should paint over it (00:17:58) or you should get rid of it or put (00:17:59) wallpaper up. But but there's, you know, (00:18:02) there's the expression, the dose makes (00:18:04) the poison. If it's the eyeball on the (00:18:06) fish, that's not a dose. That's like (00:18:08) that doesn't exist. And yet it gets (00:18:10) recalled. So the other thing I was going (00:18:12) to tell you about was in in the Consumer (00:18:14) Product Safety Commission, they had (00:18:16) somebody got recalled these um socks (00:18:19) that had a pompom on them. Oh, and then (00:18:21) sandals that had a flower on them. And (00:18:23) anything that could detach from anything (00:18:25) this could (00:18:27) detach poses a choking hazard. And it's (00:18:29) like, well, do you live in a world where (00:18:31) there's stuff? Have you ever seen a (00:18:33) flower that can detach from its stem? (00:18:35) Have you ever seen a button? Have you (00:18:36) ever seen a dime? You know, these are (00:18:38) all detached from other things. Every (00:18:41) coin. And I happen to have been raised (00:18:44) by an ear, nose, and throat surgeon. Oh (00:18:45) my god. And so I actually you heard (00:18:48) about these? I heard about these all the (00:18:50) time. My dad hates (00:18:53) fruitshaped magnets on on on uh (00:18:56) refrigerators. Refrigerators because (00:18:57) he's had to go into the ER and remove (00:18:59) them from kids noses and throats. Uh (00:19:02) he's always warned beans. Well, you (00:19:06) know, uh, carrots, like be careful when (00:19:09) you buy. I've gotten like an earful of (00:19:11) of, as it were, aspirating. Aspirating (00:19:14) risks, as I would hear. You're going to (00:19:15) aspirate on that. Not a joke. Aspirate. (00:19:18) Aspirate. And then the other word is (00:19:20) olude. That's going to occlude your (00:19:21) breathing. Um, so I get it. I get it. (00:19:25) Uh, yeah. So, did your wife have to stop (00:19:27) her company? (00:19:29) It just made everything more difficult (00:19:31) because you just as is often the case (00:19:34) these things are made in the abstract (00:19:37) and then of course companies like Mattel (00:19:39) can lobby to have right except if it's (00:19:42) on Barbie. Yeah. Or we can have our own (00:19:45) exemption so we can test Barbie in our (00:19:47) own facility at a massive scale at a (00:19:50) cost of two pennies per Barbie. But if (00:19:52) you're like the Melissa and whatever (00:19:54) with the wood toys, Melissa and Doug, I (00:19:55) mean, they were one of the companies (00:19:56) that like got really hurt by this. Um, (00:19:59) or us, like this tiny like never made a (00:20:01) profit ever thing. Maybe you should (00:20:04) thank them. Hey, thank God we got out of (00:20:06) that stupid diaper business. There was (00:20:08) no way I could stop her. I'm calling on (00:20:11) the government. So, um, okay. So, you've (00:20:14) got All right. So, you have it bleeds, (00:20:15) it leads. Yeah. Bleeds, it leads. (00:20:17) Latigious society, expert culture. (00:20:19) What's expert culture mean? Expert (00:20:20) culture is like all the magazines and (00:20:23) all the advice books telling you that (00:20:24) there's a certain way to do things, a (00:20:26) certain way to have the best (00:20:26) conversation with your kid, a certain (00:20:28) way to get them to eat certain things, (00:20:30) certain things you should or shouldn't (00:20:31) do, say or shouldn't say. Um, what to (00:20:34) expect when you're expecting what to (00:20:36) expect when you're expecting started out (00:20:38) with it was like this big. It was like (00:20:40) 300 pages to begin with and then 405. It (00:20:42) was like pregnant, you know, it just (00:20:44) kept getting bigger and bigger and (00:20:46) finally they, you know, they they had (00:20:48) little babies. say is like what to eat (00:20:50) when you're expecting and I'm like um I (00:20:52) don't know food maybe some more maybe (00:20:55) eat an apple you know I it's just let me (00:20:58) cough thank you for letting me cough it (00:21:01) there's there was one section and I (00:21:04) think I went back a couple versions to (00:21:06) find it but it said remember each (00:21:10) forkful that you eat is a chance to (00:21:13) build a healthy baby and choosing not to (00:21:16) eat you know more raw kale (00:21:18) with a couple of, you know, unpopped (00:21:21) cranberries is is a decision to to not (00:21:25) care about your child's future. And they (00:21:28) really made you feel so guilty. I mean, (00:21:30) it went on like if you eat well, which (00:21:32) makes you think that if you don't eat (00:21:33) well, the coralary is badness. If you (00:21:35) eat well, you can have, you know, better (00:21:36) birth weight, better IQ, better chances (00:21:39) of thriving, better better better (00:21:41) likelihood of going to Princeton later (00:21:44) on. And it it did two things. that first (00:21:48) of all, it made you worried that every (00:21:49) single bite that you ate made or or (00:21:53) could possibly break your kid. And then (00:21:55) if you do have a kid with any problems, (00:21:57) it's your fault. And that's that's (00:21:58) really what kills me because it there's (00:22:02) this life is so much more random than (00:22:05) that. And fate is so fickle. And one of (00:22:09) the things actually I was going to get (00:22:11) to it as number five but the idea of (00:22:13) control that we can control everything (00:22:16) that our kids do see eat where here lick (00:22:19) and that if we do they'll be fine and if (00:22:22) we don't they're damned is really the (00:22:25) thing that's driving parents the most (00:22:26) crazy but I'll I'll get to the fourth (00:22:28) thing first because I think the control (00:22:30) one is the most interesting but also we (00:22:32) live in u you know a market society and (00:22:35) the easiest dollar you can get from any (00:22:37) human being is the dollar of a terrified (00:22:39) parent, especially if you've terrified (00:22:41) them and then told them, "I'm going to (00:22:43) make your kids safe with this product or (00:22:45) thing." To what extent, (00:22:48) you know, there's this sort of truism, (00:22:49) but I think it's literally true that um (00:22:51) this trueism, uh but I don't know the (00:22:53) exact number, but it's something like (00:22:55) 80% of consumer dollars are controlled (00:22:59) by the woman of the house. that that (00:23:01) that spending that basically for all the (00:23:05) talk of patriarchy the capitalist (00:23:07) American economy again to the extent (00:23:08) it's capitalist which is mixed um is by (00:23:13) our sponsor now back is yes but but the (00:23:16) sponsor classical liberalism right um (00:23:19) the is that actually we do have a very (00:23:23) strong you know basically mom (00:23:27) runs the runs the economy like literally (00:23:30) as a consumer like everything is geared (00:23:32) towards mom spends, dad saves or you (00:23:35) know on average obviously every (00:23:37) household's going to differ at any given (00:23:38) moment but on average (00:23:41) that that's that's the facts and having (00:23:44) worked in television (00:23:46) and and seen the behavior of Madison (00:23:48) Avenue and ad and ad spending that's (00:23:51) definitely the way it broadly works like (00:23:53) we were in a weird ultimately failed (00:23:56) network spike TV network for men yeah (00:23:58) really duh Yeah, I mean that was really (00:24:01) in a lot of ways. A network where we (00:24:02) sell things to babies, right? It's like (00:24:04) is that not gonna work? First network (00:24:06) for men first gone, but you know the (00:24:10) rest are still around for for a reason (00:24:12) for now. Um, so I have to tell you when (00:24:14) I my first paying job, which took me a (00:24:17) while, uh, was at advertising age (00:24:19) because I was so fascinated by it (00:24:20) because you'd flip through the pages and (00:24:23) I remember reading an article making me (00:24:25) want to work there, which was about (00:24:27) Downey fabric softener, and they said, (00:24:29) "We were originally trying to sell it as (00:24:32) makes your fabric softer or something (00:24:34) like that, and that wasn't getting us (00:24:35) anywhere." And then we decided to change (00:24:37) our slogan to for moms who care. (00:24:41) And I thought, "Wow, isn't that (00:24:44) interesting? They they have to tell us (00:24:47) that we're bad parents if we don't buy (00:24:49) this and we don't care." I mean, like, (00:24:51) that was just as basic as could be. And (00:24:53) so, I went and worked there for like (00:24:54) five years because I I mean, I would (00:24:56) have worked there forever if I hadn't (00:24:57) lost the job, but I worked there for (00:24:59) five years just and I still get it (00:25:01) because it's so interesting to see what (00:25:04) moves people. It's very hard. It's very (00:25:07) I think it's one of these things that (00:25:10) um trying to figure out how (00:25:14) to create change you immediately run (00:25:17) into human nature. Oh that and parts of (00:25:21) human nature that you don't like that (00:25:23) don't seem rational. They might be (00:25:25) purposeful but they're not rational. And (00:25:27) so, you know, I think we could to some (00:25:30) extent be understanding of the fact that (00:25:32) you have this emergent order of (00:25:34) fear-based nonsense. Yeah. And sort of (00:25:37) preying on the worst angels of our (00:25:40) nature. Because when we try to not do (00:25:42) that, like just (00:25:44) say pizza the store. Right. Right. (00:25:47) Right. What do you got? Oh, you got (00:25:48) pizza. I got it. Yeah. No, fabric (00:25:51) softener makes your fabric softer. (00:25:52) Right. Right. Right. Meat. It's a dead (00:25:54) cow. Yeah. Don't buy this, right? Unless (00:25:58) you love your kids or whatever. That (00:25:59) works. Yeah. So, so I'm up against um (00:26:02) human nature all the time because fear (00:26:04) sells. And what I've realized in all (00:26:07) these years of talking about the same (00:26:09) topic is like why don't we let our kids (00:26:11) do half the things that we did and and (00:26:14) what that's doing to kids and what (00:26:15) that's doing to us. How do you move (00:26:17) people (00:26:18) from I'd like to let my kid do (00:26:20) something, but I'm so afraid. Yesterday (00:26:22) I was uh I was at another hair and (00:26:24) makeup lady and um the she was saying I (00:26:28) she remembers walking to school and now (00:26:30) she's in the same neighborhood and she (00:26:31) won't let her own kids walk to school. (00:26:33) And she said I'm just so afraid of (00:26:35) predators cuz they're out there. And I (00:26:37) didn't want to start giving her (00:26:38) statistics because nobody cares about (00:26:40) the statistics, but I'll give them to (00:26:41) you which is if you wanted your kid to (00:26:43) be kidnapped by a stranger in a law and (00:26:45) order type kidnapping, maybe you (00:26:47) remember this. Do you know how long (00:26:48) you'd have to keep your kid outside? Was (00:26:50) it 700,000 years? Something like that. (00:26:51) 750,000 years. Yes. Very good. Right. I (00:26:54) mean, because usually people say two (00:26:56) hours and sometimes people say two (00:26:57) minutes. So, but but the rationality (00:26:59) nothing. You're right. That doesn't (00:27:01) matter. It's, you know, compared to I (00:27:03) saw an episode of Law and Order and this (00:27:05) kid was just walking to school. So, (00:27:06) aside from and I should just side note, (00:27:09) which for those of you watching, click (00:27:11) on the link, you will see our film, (00:27:13) right? Lenor's story was recreated. (00:27:16) Explain explain the literally law and (00:27:17) order. All right. Then you're going to (00:27:18) have to remind me about my point, which (00:27:20) is rationality. Okay, we'll come back to (00:27:22) it. Uh, so Law and Order did an episode (00:27:24) that seemed to be based on uh my letting (00:27:27) my son ride uh the subway by himself at (00:27:29) age nine because there was a kid who (00:27:30) looked exactly like my son at age nine. (00:27:34) Um who in the episode says to his mom, (00:27:37) "Mom, can I take the subway by myself?" (00:27:40) And she's like, "No, no, it's too (00:27:41) dangerous." And the dad is sort of like, (00:27:42) "Maybe that'll be all right." But (00:27:44) finally somehow he convinces the kid (00:27:46) says, "Oh, come on. please let me go. (00:27:48) It'll be it'll be safe. And I'm like, it (00:27:49) won't be safe. You're on Law and Order (00:27:51) SVU. You're not going to make it out (00:27:53) alive, kid. Now, we know where this is (00:27:54) heading. Right. Right. Right. Hm. I (00:27:56) guess he'll get home fine. Um, which is (00:27:58) our whole point about the media. Anyway, (00:27:59) so she's been knitting him a a scarf and (00:28:02) mittens and he puts them on and he goes (00:28:04) to school and does he get to school? You (00:28:07) know, this all you have to say is there (00:28:09) is a shot where there's only one mitten (00:28:11) on the ground. A single mitten on the (00:28:13) ground. Right. Right. slow push in on (00:28:16) fallen mitten, right? Because there's no (00:28:18) empty swing, (00:28:21) right? Anyways, that's the episode and (00:28:23) it's horrible and you see him in a morg. (00:28:25) It's really gross. But I was bringing up (00:28:27) Law and Order because um there's sort of (00:28:30) no way to counter the fear that has been (00:28:34) shoved down our throats and the messages (00:28:36) from, you know, every which way that if (00:28:38) you care, you'll always be watching your (00:28:40) kid and if you take your eyes off of (00:28:41) them, you won't. So what I realized over (00:28:44) the years of talking about this is that (00:28:46) statistics don't move people and you (00:28:49) know reassuring people or or telling (00:28:51) them this is really great for your kid (00:28:53) can't move a person. The only thing that (00:28:55) changes a parent is their kid. And (00:28:58) that's why so I wrote Freerange Kids and (00:29:01) I was the freerange kid mom I guess for (00:29:04) like 10 years. And then in in 2017, (00:29:08) um Jonathan Height, uh who we all love, (00:29:11) and Daniel Shuckman, who was for 10 (00:29:13) years the chairman of FIRE, were talking (00:29:15) to each other and they were talking (00:29:16) about what was happening on campus and (00:29:19) there were a lot more kids needing uh (00:29:21) mental health services. And I'm glad (00:29:22) there's no stigma about this, but it was (00:29:24) it's sad that the the numbers were going (00:29:26) off the charts. And they were the kids (00:29:29) seemed to be (00:29:30) confusing feeling uncomfortable with an (00:29:33) idea, a book, a speaker, and literally (00:29:35) being unsafe, right? They were needing a (00:29:38) you know, why would you need a safe (00:29:39) space? Speech is violence, right? And (00:29:42) and that's wrong. That's literally (00:29:44) wrong. In fact, speech is instead of (00:29:45) violence, right? But in but if you need (00:29:47) a safe space or a trigger warning that (00:29:49) means that you feel so threatened that (00:29:50) it feels physical. And they were talking (00:29:53) about it and they were saying like (00:29:54) trying to change these the the mind or (00:29:57) you know open minds or just make them (00:29:59) more bold at 18 1920 is a late stage (00:30:03) intervention. Isn't there some way to (00:30:05) start younger and sort of raise kids who (00:30:08) are a little more resilient, open to new (00:30:11) ideas and experiences and ideas? And um (00:30:15) and John said, "Well, I love Freerange (00:30:17) Kids, the book, and I like Lenor a lot. (00:30:18) Why don't we talk to her about starting (00:30:20) a nonprofit?" And so the three of us (00:30:23) together with Peter Gray, who I would (00:30:25) recommend for this um and who I (00:30:27) interviewed at length actually early (00:30:28) early uh around the time I interviewed (00:30:30) you actually. Oh, yeah. So I should (00:30:31) bring him on back on the show. But we do (00:30:33) have a we have a lengthy interview about (00:30:35) his book free to free to learn. Free to (00:30:37) learn. Yeah. Who talks about the real (00:30:38) importance of different age kids with (00:30:41) playing together without supervision, (00:30:43) without structure, just having to figure (00:30:44) everything out. Anyway, so the four of (00:30:46) us together found (00:30:51) Let's thought leadership like enough (00:30:53) with the thoughts. Thoughts go like (00:30:55) this. Oh, that sounds good. I'd like to (00:30:57) try that, but if something went wrong, (00:30:58) oh my god, I couldn't live with myself. (00:31:00) Forget it. No, no, no. Right. you go (00:31:02) from, "I'm gonna let my kid go to no." (00:31:04) Because if something went wrong, and (00:31:06) this is this is what's the most (00:31:07) interesting thing to me about our (00:31:09) culture now is that it's a knee-jerk (00:31:11) reaction whenever you say, "How about (00:31:13) you let your kid walk to the bus stop? (00:31:14) How about you let your kid go into the (00:31:16) store?" It's always, "Well, I'd like to, (00:31:18) but if something happened, I couldn't (00:31:20) live with myself, so no." So, and and (00:31:22) that's not something that our parents (00:31:24) thought about. It wasn't always going to (00:31:25) this darkest I called the worst first (00:31:28) thinking. Going to the worstc case (00:31:29) scenario first. So long story um coming (00:31:34) around which um I didn't want to lead (00:31:37) thoughts, I want to lead action because (00:31:39) action changes parents. If you actually (00:31:42) do let your kid walk to the store, take (00:31:45) the bus, take the bus and have some guy (00:31:47) preaching at him or some guy falling (00:31:49) down in front of him or some guy strung (00:31:51) out on drugs in front of him and the kid (00:31:52) comes home and they won't believe what (00:31:53) happened on the bus today. Oh my god, it (00:31:55) was so exciting. It was so weird. Dad, (00:31:58) it was so wild. this kid was this guy (00:32:00) was talking to me. You know, when you (00:32:03) have that experience with your own kid, (00:32:05) then you can let him go again. But you (00:32:07) can't until you are, it's sort of like (00:32:11) you can't let that happen until you've (00:32:13) let it happen. Once you've seen it (00:32:15) happen and you've realized, oh, my kid (00:32:16) is fine. This is great. He is coming (00:32:19) home. Then you keep getting this (00:32:21) reinforcement that allows you to keep (00:32:23) letting them do more. But how do you get (00:32:24) them to do it that first time when they (00:32:27) haven't done it yet? And the circular (00:32:29) reasoning is if I let go something (00:32:31) terrible will happen. So let grow big (00:32:35) very extremely simple free idea is what (00:32:39) we call the let grow experience where (00:32:43) schools give kids the homework (00:32:44) assignment. Actually have something (00:32:45) written on my hand here. Don't forget (00:32:47) have to call this person. Ignore that (00:32:49) stick of butter. Right. Right. Right. (00:32:51) Loaf of bread. Right. Carton of milk. (00:32:53) Right. (00:32:54) That's a deep cut for those of us that (00:32:56) grew up watching PBS. That's right. (00:32:58) Which is everybody, viewers like you. (00:33:01) Um, anyways, it says, "Go home and do (00:33:03) something new on your own without your (00:33:05) parents. With your parents' permission, (00:33:07) but without your parents." And the (00:33:09) reason this let grow experience is such (00:33:11) a big deal even though it is free and (00:33:13) simple and one sentence long. Although (00:33:15) now we have it as a curriculum and (00:33:16) there's page after page after page but (00:33:18) basically it is taking away the stigma (00:33:22) of you being the only person letting (00:33:24) your kid do it and actually taking away (00:33:25) a little of your valition. It's like I (00:33:27) didn't think it was a good idea but he (00:33:28) had to do something for school and so (00:33:30) our neighbor's kid was going to go to (00:33:31) the store so they went to the store (00:33:32) together. So it it's this push. It's (00:33:34) putting the cart before the horse. The (00:33:37) cart is letting go because once you've (00:33:39) let go then you can let go again. And so (00:33:42) we push people we nudge whatever the (00:33:44) Cass Sunstein is. We nudge you into (00:33:46) letting go so that you get this amazing (00:33:50) experience of like look at my kid. She (00:33:53) brought home a stick of butter, a carton (00:33:54) of milk and a puppy. That's wrong. But I (00:33:56) mean you get the fun experience of (00:33:59) seeing your kid do something in the (00:34:00) world. And I would ask you viewers (00:34:04) um if you're parents um to think about (00:34:07) I'll ask you you're a parent to think (00:34:09) about the time you were most proud of (00:34:13) your kid. (00:34:15) Oh it's I mean in some ways it's hard to (00:34:18) think about one Yeah. I mean I right now (00:34:22) I'm most proud and it's it's in it's in (00:34:24) this category. Okay. that we said, "Hey, (00:34:29) Matteo, what do you think about like (00:34:31) going to Italy after you graduate high (00:34:32) school?" And he said yes. And he did it. (00:34:36) Wow. And he's actually, you know, he's (00:34:37) he's it's freshman year and it is this (00:34:40) weird thing. It's like where he's like, (00:34:43) "This kind of sucks. It kind of feels (00:34:45) like high school again." Why? He's in (00:34:47) Italy. Well, yeah, but it's but but like (00:34:50) the class the class stuff the school (00:34:52) part. Yeah. That school stuff's gonna go (00:34:54) on for four years now. It's like and and (00:34:56) it's like and I talk to other people (00:34:58) because it's been a little while since (00:34:59) I've been in college and I'm not a big (00:35:00) fan of the institution anymore. But um (00:35:03) and everyone's like, "Oh, well yeah, (00:35:04) yeah, the first two years kind of suck." (00:35:05) And it's like, you know what? Usually (00:35:07) when things suck for an extended period, (00:35:08) we change them, right? Maybe we should (00:35:10) like not have the first two years of (00:35:12) this thing suck. But anyway, I (00:35:15) am so proud that he was willing to do (00:35:19) it. That he was like, "Yes, I'll do (00:35:21) that. I will go to a foreign city where (00:35:24) I don't speak the language with no (00:35:26) friends. I'm gonna have I He has nobody. (00:35:29) He doesn't know. He didn't go in there (00:35:31) knowing a single classmate. I didn't (00:35:33) even have that. I went to Penn State. I (00:35:35) went with my best friend since fifth (00:35:36) grade. Oh wow. So I had the opposite. I (00:35:38) had like super safety blanket when I (00:35:40) left left school. So that and I do (00:35:45) credit I do credit you your inspiration (00:35:49) on this. We were kind of primed for (00:35:52) thinking this way. But one of the things (00:35:54) that's so important about what you are (00:35:56) doing and the argument you're making (00:35:58) here for action is that you you train (00:36:01) yourself as a parent on this. Your kid (00:36:04) trains you. That's what I'm trying to (00:36:05) say. Once you've let go, then your kid (00:36:07) trains you because they were okay. And (00:36:11) just as this incredible instinct towards (00:36:14) fear and you know safety and worry and (00:36:16) anxiety does seem to be hardwired, (00:36:19) there's also this hardwiring of look at (00:36:23) my kid. I mean that's why people are (00:36:24) boring and they're always showing you (00:36:25) pictures of your children, their (00:36:26) grandchildren, but it is you're so (00:36:29) you're (00:36:30) so thrilled to your core when you see (00:36:33) your kid do something without you there. (00:36:36) And that is the big reward of being a (00:36:39) parent is like, wow. I mean, I just (00:36:41) asked this. I was just giving a lecture, (00:36:42) I don't know, a couple nights ago, and (00:36:44) everybody's story was like, oh, you (00:36:47) know, she went to the store or she (00:36:48) climbed higher or um he put his dish in (00:36:51) the sink when he was on the overnight. (00:36:53) And you know, he never does that with (00:36:54) us, but he did it there. And you realize (00:36:56) that's when you realize like a couple (00:36:58) things. One is that your kid is not just (00:37:01) okay when you're there. That's that's a (00:37:03) biggie. Yeah. Yeah. Two is that (00:37:05) everything that you've been saying has (00:37:07) not been for not all this child rearing (00:37:09) stuff that you've been doing since they (00:37:11) were born. It's like oh well now he (00:37:13) understands like to be a good guest. You (00:37:15) do put your dish in the sink or you know (00:37:17) she is a little braver than I thought or (00:37:19) she can do things on her own. It's it's (00:37:21) this great feeling and I used to think (00:37:24) like, you know, America's Worst Mom (00:37:26) became a World's Worst Mom became a TV (00:37:28) show and I was dealing with all these (00:37:30) parents who were very very nervous about (00:37:31) their kids and I would send the kids out (00:37:33) to do things while I sat with the (00:37:35) parents who were just beside themselves. (00:37:37) Yeah. And one time um I taught a kid how (00:37:41) to ride a bike. He was 10 years old. (00:37:42) He'd never ridden a bike before. And (00:37:44) when we came back from that, the mother (00:37:47) went into the to the um to her house and (00:37:51) said to her mother, the Russian (00:37:52) grandmother, "Guess what, mom? Sammy can (00:37:55) ride a bike." And the grandmother goes, (00:37:56) "What? Or Sammy ride bike?" "Yes, Sammy (00:37:58) can ride a bike. Sammy can ride a bike." (00:38:01) And they were like dancing around. I'm (00:38:02) like, "Who kept him from riding a bike? (00:38:04) Who kept him from riding a bike?" And (00:38:06) going on an overnight and walking to (00:38:07) school and even cutting his own meat. It (00:38:09) was them. But here they were so proud (00:38:12) and excited. So that's hardwired into us (00:38:15) to really want to see our kids succeed (00:38:18) without us there because that's the only (00:38:20) evidence that we've done a good job. (00:38:22) That's the only evidence that they're (00:38:23) going to be okay without us. And that is (00:38:25) really primal because you have kids or (00:38:27) you raise kids so that they will be okay (00:38:30) when you're not there, right? For one (00:38:32) reason or another. Let's just put it (00:38:34) that way. And so so I think two things (00:38:36) are happening. One is that you're (00:38:37) getting this very primal thrill of (00:38:41) seeing that your kid has taken you into (00:38:43) their heart and into their head. They're (00:38:45) doing things right or they're scrambling (00:38:47) and they're figuring things out. That's (00:38:48) great. You were so proud clearly of (00:38:50) these bus rides that he took, right? And (00:38:54) then the other thing I think is (00:38:55) happening is that we have a culture that (00:38:57) has almost superimposed this (00:38:59) extraordinary fear on us. I mean like Oh (00:39:02) yes. Right. And I'll give you an (00:39:03) example, but then you have to remind me (00:39:05) that I'm going to talk about OCD. So (00:39:07) just remind it's like hard to remember (00:39:08) everything. So here's an example. A lady (00:39:11) wrote to me recently um to say that she (00:39:14) had started what we call a letrow play (00:39:16) club. Schools can start them or (00:39:18) individuals can start them where mixed (00:39:19) age kids just play together. There's no (00:39:21) devices. There's no structure. Kids (00:39:23) figure everything out on their own. But (00:39:25) in this case, the first three times (00:39:26) she'd had it, and this was in a suburb (00:39:28) in Montana, right? There's fewer people (00:39:30) in Montana than in this theater today. (00:39:33) Okay. So, she had low population state. (00:39:36) Low population state. And um and (00:39:38) actually she had a weird last name so I (00:39:40) could Google her street and that was (00:39:41) just like house lawn house lawn house (00:39:43) lawn house lawn car parked house lawn. (00:39:46) It was just it was extraordinarily safe (00:39:49) looking and um empty I would say. (00:39:52) Anyway, so she'd had the eight kids (00:39:54) playing and the first three times the (00:39:56) parents watched them the whole time in (00:39:59) Montana. In Montana. And so here's what (00:40:01) happened. So then she said, "For the (00:40:03) next time," she said, "How about the (00:40:04) next time they get together, I'll be at (00:40:07) home. I'll be inside, but they can play (00:40:09) in the yard." And one of the one the dad (00:40:12) actually (00:40:14) said only in the backyard because the (00:40:17) front yard I don't know if anything (00:40:19) terrible happened to my kid I would have (00:40:21) to kill (00:40:22) myself and that's been a an interesting (00:40:26) thing for me to chew on because the dad (00:40:29) says this is even weirder but there's (00:40:31) some I'd say like one out of every 10 (00:40:34) really worried parents is the dad is the (00:40:37) dad but um but what what was so (00:40:39) interesting to me was that not only that (00:40:41) he'd gone to this terrible place first, (00:40:44) but that there was absolutely no (00:40:45) recognition of reality, which is that (00:40:48) you're in a suburb and the front lawn or (00:40:50) the back lawn doesn't matter, and that (00:40:52) your kids are not going to run into the (00:40:54) street because they know better than (00:40:55) that. They were five to eight years old. (00:40:58) And also, it it's like it was like a new (00:41:01) level. It's like, wow, not only is (00:41:02) something terrible going to happen to my (00:41:03) kid, then I'm going to gonna be dead, (00:41:05) too. You know, who does that leave? I (00:41:07) guess that leaves my wife left, you (00:41:08) know, and maybe a baby or something. So, (00:41:11) um, I feel like the fact that that was (00:41:14) not a dad saying, "I know I have a (00:41:16) serious mental illness, but I'm already (00:41:18) imagining myself dead if my child plays (00:41:21) for an hour on the front lawn instead of (00:41:23) the back lawn here in suburban Montana." (00:41:26) So, so the fact that this has become so (00:41:30) normalized to think that (00:41:32) catastrophically and that that (00:41:35) depressingly about kids doing anything (00:41:38) like and we're not talking about them (00:41:39) working in the salt mines. We're talking (00:41:40) about them playing for an hour playing (00:41:43) something good. Right. So, I'd even make (00:41:46) the arguments for them working in the (00:41:47) salt mines. Well, you (00:41:49) would him, right? Right. Uh salt mines, (00:41:52) you know, you'd learn a thing or two, (00:41:54) right? Right. maybe putting their dishes (00:41:55) in the sink. Anyways, my point about OCD (00:41:58) is this. I feel like our culture has (00:42:00) trained us to think that way. And in (00:42:03) fact, when I was to catastrophize to (00:42:06) catastrophize. And it's it's been um (00:42:08) it's been a slow, steady drip of this of (00:42:11) this way of thinking. And when I let my (00:42:13) nine-year-old ride the subway alone, the (00:42:15) question I got asked most in all these (00:42:18) talk shows was, "Well, that's great, but (00:42:20) what if he hadn't come home?" So they (00:42:22) took something that was triumphant and (00:42:25) triumphant only in that they made it (00:42:26) triumphant. It was just pretty normal (00:42:28) and turned it into like like let's get (00:42:30) this back into the right lane. The lane (00:42:32) is you're supposed to go you took your (00:42:33) eyes off him and something terrible (00:42:34) happened. And the fact that it didn't (00:42:36) happen doesn't matter. We're going to go (00:42:38) talk about that as if it did. We'll have (00:42:39) the hypothetical conversation we wanted (00:42:41) to have which is right. What did you (00:42:44) feel like? What would you have felt like (00:42:46) if you came outside and saw the one (00:42:48) mitten on the ground? Right. Right. (00:42:50) Right. or your kid was abducted from the (00:42:52) front lawn in, you know, suburban (00:42:54) Billings or whatever. So, I feel like (00:42:57) having having created a culture that (00:43:00) thinks that it's normal to worry this (00:43:02) way, even parents who remember walking (00:43:05) the same three blocks to the bus stop (00:43:08) from the same house when they were kids (00:43:10) can't let their own kids do that now (00:43:12) because they're just too scared. I feel (00:43:14) like that's been superimposed, right? We (00:43:16) know it's the same three blocks. It's (00:43:18) this, you know, and and if your kid is (00:43:20) just as smart as you, and we all think (00:43:21) our kids are as smart as us, most of (00:43:23) them. Um, then then it shouldn't be so (00:43:26) scary. But anyway, so the fact that it (00:43:27) is scary means that when you do let your (00:43:29) kid go and do something, that's exposure (00:43:31) therapy, right? What is exposure (00:43:33) therapy? It's when somebody is very (00:43:34) anxious about a dog, right? And so I'm (00:43:37) going to show you a picture of a dog (00:43:39) today. You're like, and when you come (00:43:41) back for our next session, I'm going to (00:43:43) show you a dog across the street. And (00:43:44) you're like, okay. And then the next (00:43:47) session you're going to be on the (00:43:48) sidewalk and the dog is just 15 feet (00:43:50) away. Okay. And now tomorrow is the big (00:43:52) day. We're going to have you in a room (00:43:54) with the dog and the dog comes over and (00:43:55) like Yeah. It's a little cava poo that (00:43:59) looks like a toy stuffed animal scared (00:44:01) and right. And it's licking you and it's (00:44:04) wagging its tail like can I bring him (00:44:06) home? Mommy, can I keep him? So that's (00:44:09) exposure therapy. Showing you that (00:44:11) something that you thought was (00:44:12) terrifying isn't. And this is exposure (00:44:16) therapy for America. When you get when (00:44:19) your teacher tells your kid, you have to (00:44:21) do something new on your own, which (00:44:22) means that you, the parent, must let (00:44:24) them, you do, and you change. That's (00:44:27) that's why I talk about this all the (00:44:29) time. If you listen to Jonathan Height (00:44:30) now, that's what he's saying, take away (00:44:32) the phone and open the door. We're the (00:44:34) open the door part. And when you're (00:44:36) doing it as a group like everybody from (00:44:38) the school or everybody from your church (00:44:40) or just you and these three people who (00:44:42) are willing to do it with you, you let (00:44:43) the kids go. It changes you and that's (00:44:46) the only thing that changes you. Not (00:44:48) thinking, doing. (00:44:50) Um Aristotle has this formulation of (00:44:53) character that's basically says action (00:44:55) creates habits and habits create (00:44:57) character and create character creates (00:44:59) who you are. And I think that is so (00:45:02) true. There is wait I'm busy trying to (00:45:03) remember action creates habits. Yeah. (00:45:05) That your habits um you know are action (00:45:09) put into place and repeated you know 28 (00:45:12) days or whatever you know like the uh (00:45:14) but there's you know the question of (00:45:16) like how do you get to be who you are? (00:45:19) It starts with the things you do you do (00:45:22) these things you know there's that (00:45:23) phrase fake it till you make it. Yeah. (00:45:25) Yeah. Yeah. It's great and I think it's (00:45:26) like it's actually profoundly (00:45:29) true. It's like deep wisdom that fake it (00:45:32) till you make it a thing. And everybody (00:45:34) that's ever gotten promoted and realize (00:45:37) like, oh I don't really know what (00:45:39) I'm supposed to do. I guess I should act (00:45:41) like I How about the people who go on a (00:45:44) dance floor? It's like, oh, I look so (00:45:45) stupid. I feel so self-conscious. And (00:45:47) then pretty soon you're dancing and (00:45:48) having fun. It all is getting over that (00:45:51) hump. So that's what I'm trying to do. (00:45:53) Um, so our mutual friend, uh, Dr. Camila (00:45:57) Ortiz Oh, yes. is uh has actually and (00:46:00) we've had him on the show to talk in (00:46:02) depth about uh cognitive behavioral (00:46:04) therapy. He you guys teamed up. Yeah. (00:46:08) And um went deep went into the world of (00:46:12) like some some rigorous investigation (00:46:14) that was all him. I mean, you know, I (00:46:18) highd your your method Yeah. as actual a (00:46:24) kind of clinical therapy. Tell tell me (00:46:27) about, you know, the outcomes of that. I (00:46:28) mean, it's my favorite thing that has (00:46:30) happened so far, I'd say, in my life, (00:46:32) which is that it seemed to me like (00:46:35) letting go made everybody feel more (00:46:38) confident and happy and optimistic and (00:46:41) the let grow experience, which we keep (00:46:43) pushing, is you know, how do I prove (00:46:46) that that's what's really happening? So (00:46:47) Camilo, who'd heard about the Leo (00:46:49) experience and who, you know, thought it (00:46:51) was a great idea, decided to try (00:46:54) independence as therapy for kids with a (00:46:57) diagnosis of anxiety. And what he did is (00:47:00) it was just a five-week program. And he (00:47:02) found four kids, like parents who, you (00:47:05) know, told them about their kids were (00:47:07) like so anxious. I mean, I finally read (00:47:09) the paper. They were, it's so sad. I (00:47:11) mean, the anxiety is not just like, oh, (00:47:13) I'm scared to do that. It's like their (00:47:15) hearts would be racing or sometimes (00:47:17) they'd be throwing up or they'd be (00:47:19) they'd be like weeping at the idea of (00:47:21) going to school or walking outside. Just (00:47:23) really crippling, rough, sad, right? I (00:47:27) mean, nobody wants to see their kid that (00:47:29) way. Anyway, so he found four families (00:47:31) like that. And um what he did is the (00:47:34) first week he would meet just with the (00:47:36) parents. And I'm talking about the two (00:47:37) parents. He didn't do group therapy. So (00:47:39) he would meet with the two parents and (00:47:41) he found out from them you know what's (00:47:43) bringing you here uh what is the the (00:47:47) biggest problem that you see and I'll (00:47:49) trying to decide which story to tell (00:47:50) you. I'll tell you about the boy. One (00:47:52) boy is 10 years old and he was afraid to (00:47:55) go upstairs or downstairs in his own (00:47:56) house um without a mom or or dad. And so (00:48:01) the parents tell Camilo that. And then (00:48:03) actually Camilo shows the video that you (00:48:05) made that you're linking to here about (00:48:07) off the rails about how great it is to (00:48:09) be independent. Much shorter video than (00:48:11) this. And um you know just as a sort of (00:48:14) bracing example of like it's you know (00:48:16) this is your fear has been shoved down (00:48:17) your throats. It's not you it's the (00:48:19) culture. I bet you can let go. So then (00:48:21) the next week when the kid comes in (00:48:24) normal cognitive behavioral therapy, the (00:48:26) idea would be exposure to the very thing (00:48:28) that you are afraid of like we were (00:48:29) talking about with dogs. And so it would (00:48:30) normally be I think I'm not a (00:48:32) psychologist, but I hear you're afraid (00:48:34) to sleep in your own bed or I hear hear (00:48:36) you're afraid to go upstairs and (00:48:37) downstairs in your own house and you're (00:48:39) 10. How about tonight you go upstairs (00:48:42) for five minutes? Okay, that would be (00:48:44) exposure to that exact fair. and then (00:48:46) then then come back and the next week (00:48:47) it's going to be 10 minutes and then how (00:48:49) about you stay up there, you know, and (00:48:50) for the (00:48:52) afternoon. There was no mention of the (00:48:55) humiliating fear at all. It was just (00:48:58) this. It's like, hey, you're 10. I've (00:48:59) been talking to your parents about (00:49:00) independence. I bet there's some things (00:49:02) you want to do on your own that you (00:49:03) haven't done yet. Maybe because you (00:49:05) thought they'd say no. Now I've primed (00:49:07) your parents. Let's hear. And what was (00:49:09) interesting is that these kids who were (00:49:12) so afraid of some things actually had (00:49:14) things that they did want to do on their (00:49:16) own. This particular kid who wanted to (00:49:18) take the Long Island Railroad. Um a lot (00:49:20) of public transit therapy going on. It (00:49:22) is. It is. Yeah. There you go. So come (00:49:24) to me. Come to New York. Um he also (00:49:27) wanted to walk home from school. The day (00:49:28) he wanted to walk home from school for (00:49:30) the first time, his mom took off work (00:49:33) because she herself was so anxious and (00:49:35) worried about it, she couldn't function. (00:49:37) So there's a little bit of a, you know, (00:49:39) a uh bleeding over from from the parent (00:49:42) to the kid, from the kid to the parent. (00:49:44) And so he he walked home and then she (00:49:47) actually knew somebody along the route (00:49:48) who called her and said, you know, he's (00:49:49) he seems to be going in the wrong way, (00:49:51) but he made it the right way and he came (00:49:53) home and then the next time he wanted to (00:49:55) do it, she could go to work, right? And (00:49:58) then that became normal. And then he did (00:50:00) take the Long Island Railroad four stops (00:50:02) and that's 10 miles or that's like the (00:50:05) hero's journey, right? I mean, he went (00:50:08) someplace far and and came back and and (00:50:11) transformed transformed and the parents (00:50:13) were transformed. And so the coolest (00:50:16) part of his story is that he was a fifth (00:50:18) grader and so sixth grade is starting. (00:50:20) to a new school and the schools because (00:50:22) this is our culture that I think (00:50:24) inculcates fear and dis you know just (00:50:27) not believing enough in your kid sends (00:50:29) home a letter to all the parents your (00:50:31) child is starting sixth grade this is (00:50:33) such a momentous change and such a big (00:50:36) thing for him to deal with him or her to (00:50:38) deal with you know of course you can (00:50:39) come because they're going to be getting (00:50:40) their new locker and a home room and new (00:50:43) halls and new people I mean it's all (00:50:45) like it's like back to the salt mines (00:50:47) it's it's like it's all so scary nobody (00:50:49) has ever managed this on their own. (00:50:52) Never mind like the 13-year-olds that (00:50:54) came across on boats to this country (00:50:56) that are your great-grandparents. Right. (00:50:58) Right. Right. And had to learn Right. (00:50:59) Right. Right. Learn a new language and (00:51:01) didn't have a skill. Yes. So in this (00:51:03) case, he said to his parents, "You know (00:51:05) what? I got this." And so he went to (00:51:08) school by himself that first day of (00:51:10) sixth grade. And when he came home, he (00:51:11) told his parents, you know, almost (00:51:13) everybody else had their parents with (00:51:14) them. So, so you went from not going (00:51:18) upstairs on your own to going to sixth (00:51:21) grade on your own. And the parents, (00:51:23) rather than feeling like, oh, this is (00:51:25) terrible or he doesn't need us anymore (00:51:26) or that seems too dangerous. Why did we (00:51:28) ever let him do it? They're feeling (00:51:30) great. And so that's what this whole (00:51:34) idea is. Independence is a way of (00:51:37) finding out a bunch of things. One is (00:51:39) that the world is not as scary as you (00:51:40) thought. Two is if you screw up, that's (00:51:42) okay. Okay. And I have a nice story (00:51:44) about that from Camilo, too. Um, and (00:51:46) three is that your parents believe in (00:51:48) you. (00:51:51) The the thing that upsets me is that a (00:51:56) lot of kids today know that their (00:51:57) parents love them very much. You know, (00:52:00) I'm standing next to you at the bus (00:52:01) stop. I love you. I love you. I love (00:52:02) you. But they don't know that their (00:52:04) parents believe in them. And when I've (00:52:07) asked people, I I'll do this little (00:52:09) experiment with you. Close your eyes. (00:52:10) And I won't do it as long as it normally (00:52:12) takes because that would make for (00:52:13) terrible YouTube TV. But close your eyes (00:52:16) and think of somebody who didn't believe (00:52:18) in you. Somebody who thought you were, (00:52:20) you know, dumb or fat or slow or just (00:52:24) just and then if you if you've thought (00:52:26) of somebody. Yes. You know what? I've (00:52:29) got to say I am blessed. It's hard for (00:52:32) me to think of that. I also came from an (00:52:33) Italian family where all the aunts and (00:52:35) uncles and everybody thinks you're the (00:52:36) smartest person in the whole world. But (00:52:37) no, I've got I've got one in mind. Okay. (00:52:39) So, okay, open your eyes now and tell me (00:52:42) if where you feel that. Do you feel that (00:52:43) anywhere in your body? (00:52:46) You feel it like right here. Mhm. Which (00:52:48) is weird. Not weird. No. I mean, it's so (00:52:52) disheartening. There's your heart, (00:52:53) right? It's it's it's a burden, right? (00:52:56) It pulls you down. You can feel like a (00:52:58) like a like a Yeah. Like literally a (00:52:59) weight pulling you down. Okay, now we're (00:53:02) going to do the fun one. Look at you. (00:53:04) Look really sad. Right. Yeah. No, I (00:53:06) thought of a jerk, too. Horrible (00:53:08) horrible old boyfriend. we won't (00:53:09) discuss. Okay. Now, close your eyes, (00:53:11) okay? And think of the opposite. Think (00:53:13) of somebody who really thought you were (00:53:15) terrific and believed in you, believed (00:53:18) in you, thought you were like God's gift (00:53:20) or just so great or so smart or so cute. (00:53:22) Yeah. Like early on. Okay. Are you (00:53:25) thinking of that person? Okay. Can you (00:53:27) tell me who it was? You can open your (00:53:28) eyes. It's my grandfather, my mom's dad. (00:53:31) He just adored me. He I could do no (00:53:33) wrong. (00:53:35) Okay. Do you feel that anywhere? (00:53:40) It it actually for me is like I feel a (00:53:41) little lightheaded. (00:53:44) Yeah. Like it's like like a little like (00:53:47) it's up here actually for me. (00:53:49) Well, you look like you're going to cry. (00:53:51) But I want to say that um I cried the (00:53:53) first time I thought about it too. I (00:53:54) thought about a seventh grade teacher (00:53:55) who was just really transfor blurry (00:53:57) Italian. Getting me to cry is not that (00:53:59) hard. Yeah. Really? This is like Yeah. (00:54:00) fish in a barrel. Um, but the point is (00:54:02) that one pulls you down. And I didn't, (00:54:04) you know, we didn't practice this in the (00:54:07) this it's uplifting. It's the wind (00:54:09) beneath your wings. And it really takes (00:54:11) somebody believing in you before you (00:54:14) believe in yourself for you to believe (00:54:16) in yourself. And why would we want our (00:54:18) kids to know that that's us? I believe (00:54:20) in you. I think you're smart. I think (00:54:22) you're going to be okay. I think if you (00:54:23) screw up, that's not the end of the (00:54:25) world. all that allows you to sort of go (00:54:28) out into the world and fly as opposed to (00:54:31) this, which is I love you, but you're in (00:54:33) danger. I I'm worried about you. I'm (00:54:35) just going to be with you all the time (00:54:37) because otherwise all bets are off. The (00:54:41) um term that I learned early in (00:54:44) exploring all these these things with (00:54:46) with your work and and and um Jonathan (00:54:49) Height and then this whole world of (00:54:50) psychologist Peter Gray, Dr. expertise (00:54:54) is internal locus of control. Oh yeah. (00:54:57) Yeah. Yeah. That (00:55:00) happy like psychologyy's got a lot of (00:55:02) like we were talking before we started (00:55:03) about the difference between the blurry (00:55:06) reality and the high resolution fiction (00:55:09) that we want. We everything needs to be (00:55:11) in focus. It's science to report things (00:55:13) with more detail than they actually can (00:55:15) have. Um, but to the extent (00:55:19) psychologyy's got some stuff that works (00:55:21) and is repeatable, as I understand it, (00:55:23) the correlation between having an (00:55:25) internal locus of control, which is to (00:55:27) say, my choices actually matter. They (00:55:31) have force. They have agency. I can (00:55:35) choose correlates with happiness more (00:55:37) than anything else. And the inverse is (00:55:40) victimhood. I am a victim of (00:55:42) circumstances. That's the external locus (00:55:44) of control. It's the system. It's the (00:55:47) nefarious players in the world who are (00:55:49) trying to control me. It's the scary (00:55:52) world out there that that I will be (00:55:54) victimized by and I have and there's (00:55:56) nothing I can do about it other than I (00:55:57) guess lock myself in my room until I'm (00:55:59) 45 years old. I I think of it less in (00:56:03) terms of victimization and more in terms (00:56:07) of who's managing me. Um, I think of the (00:56:11) external locus of control is (00:56:15) micromanaging of everything you do. And (00:56:17) I guess you're talking about choices, (00:56:18) but I'm talking about actions, too. It's (00:56:20) like you're going to do this, and then (00:56:21) this is really good for you, and then (00:56:22) I'm going to help you with this. And (00:56:24) it's somebody else determining pretty (00:56:27) much your entire existence. You know, (00:56:30) what you do, who you see, what you wear, (00:56:32) what who cares about what you wear, but (00:56:34) like how you're spending all your time. (00:56:36) And what we've seen with childhood is (00:56:38) that it has gone from a lot more (00:56:40) freedom, which is you deciding what to (00:56:42) do and you figuring things out, to a lot (00:56:45) more somebody else supervising, (00:56:47) structuring your day. And what Peter (00:56:50) Gray found out and and finally published (00:56:53) in the Journal of Pediatrics, so that's (00:56:55) pretty nifty, is that over the It's got (00:56:58) some problems, but I'll leave that for (00:56:59) another time. Leave that aside because (00:57:00) we're going to talk about this important (00:57:02) piece by Peter Gray that we love and we (00:57:04) quote all the time. Peter Gray is great. (00:57:06) Pediatrics, Journal of Pediatrics. No, (00:57:08) the the American Academy of Pediatrics (00:57:10) has said crazy things like you shouldn't (00:57:13) walk out. No child we think is (00:57:15) developmentally able to walk outside (00:57:16) alone until age 10, which is like (00:57:18) remember I said I walked at five. Have (00:57:20) you ever been to anywhere else in the (00:57:21) world? Right. Right. Right. Or any other (00:57:23) era? What are you talking about? This is (00:57:25) this expert psychosis that's just Yeah. (00:57:27) But anyway, right. And also sort of (00:57:30) going to the extreme. It's like, well, I (00:57:32) think that, you know, five year olds are (00:57:34) okay, and you might think seven-y olds (00:57:35) okay, but the American, like, just to be (00:57:37) safe, you know, back to the culture. (00:57:39) Let's say 10 at age 10, you can finally (00:57:42) cross your suburban street and go to (00:57:45) your friend's house without me walking (00:57:46) you there. Anyways, Peter's piece um (00:57:50) traced uh basically the the exertion of (00:57:54) more and more control over kids. And (00:57:56) what he said is as kids (00:57:59) um independence and free play have gone (00:58:02) down over the decades not just since (00:58:04) phones not just since co right um as (00:58:07) they're inspired school plays a big role (00:58:10) in this too all right but as (00:58:12) independence and free time um free (00:58:14) choice has gone down and not not a lack (00:58:17) of responsibility I mean just like being (00:58:19) a person in the world and as um so as (00:58:22) that went down the rise has been in (00:58:26) anxiety and depression. And and the one (00:58:29) I thing he doesn't talk about that I (00:58:31) like to think about now is it's not just (00:58:33) anxiety and depression. It feels like (00:58:36) passivity. I've been to so many schools (00:58:38) and I've been surprised by how dulled (00:58:41) out kids are. And I don't think it's (00:58:43) just because they're in school. Um and I (00:58:46) know when I go into these classrooms, (00:58:48) there's a new person there and everybody (00:58:50) gets shy. But I've heard from teachers, (00:58:52) and this is not just at one school. It's (00:58:53) like, so if you keep hearing about it, (00:58:55) maybe it's true, like that that a pencil (00:58:57) will fall on the ground and the kids (00:58:59) will be like, (00:59:03) "Who's going to pick that up for me?" (00:59:05) Right. Right. Right. Or am I allowed to (00:59:06) pick it up or should I pick it up or am (00:59:08) I going to be embarrassed or what if it (00:59:09) drops again? And and there's just sort (00:59:11) of some sort of evisceration and I guess (00:59:14) it's the evisceration of that internal (00:59:16) locus of control that we were talking (00:59:18) about and replaced with this external (00:59:20) locus of control. And sometimes I think (00:59:22) of childhood looks like it's fun. You (00:59:24) know, I'm going to soccer, I'm going to (00:59:26) taekwondo, now I'm going to (00:59:28) Chuck-e-Cheese. And it sometimes feels (00:59:29) like there's this exoskeleton of cheer (00:59:32) and birthday parties and fun. But but (00:59:35) finding your way in the forest or coming (00:59:37) up with a game or, you know, doing (00:59:40) something new or something silly on your (00:59:42) own or catching a frog. I mean, and the (00:59:46) urban equivalent, whatever that is, (00:59:47) catching a roach. um all of that that (00:59:50) seems to have sort of (00:59:53) evaporated and for all the reasons we (00:59:55) were talking about at the top of this I (00:59:57) think um so you know one of the things (01:00:00) from Peter Peter's radical on the school (01:00:02) side of things and and I'm broadly with (01:00:05) him on that I mean Actton Academy is (01:00:08) closer to Peter his his kid went to (01:00:11) Sudbury where it's literally like no (01:00:12) rules at all I went and visited Yeah. (01:00:14) and and and I went and visited with Izzy (01:00:18) who was crying when we left. (01:00:21) Oh, and I remember reaching we reached (01:00:22) out to Sudbury and it I mean it's a it's (01:00:26) a little bit of a cult like the response (01:00:27) we got back was in the form of something (01:00:29) akin to a manifesto. It was kind of it (01:00:31) was kind of strange but we should (01:00:34) explain that. So the idea behind Sudbury (01:00:35) is that there's no grades and no grades (01:00:37) and the kids are innately curious and (01:00:40) they will find things that interest them (01:00:42) and because they're deeply interested (01:00:44) they will pursue them in a in in such a (01:00:47) way that they learn everything else (01:00:48) along the way. Like if you want to learn (01:00:50) all about frogs, you're going to learn (01:00:52) about biology and then you're going to (01:00:53) somehow learn math and maybe you're (01:00:55) going to read books about frogs and (01:00:56) pretty soon you're going to be really (01:00:58) good at frogs. Radically child directed. (01:01:01) It's on in the spectrum of child (01:01:03) direction. If you said like okay typical (01:01:05) public school is Prussian prison and (01:01:09) then you know uh Catholic school is not (01:01:12) too far behind Montasauri. Okay now (01:01:14) you've got large blocks of time where (01:01:15) you actually have to do the work and and (01:01:18) you're mixed ages. So Maria Monasuri (01:01:20) great um and real world stuff you know (01:01:23) like cups are real and physical actually (01:01:25) making the snack use of things. Yeah. (01:01:27) Making your food, cleaning up the work. (01:01:30) You know, they call it work from an (01:01:31) early age. You know, Actton Academy is (01:01:34) like monastery on steroids where the (01:01:35) adults are not allowed to answer (01:01:37) questions or they'll be fired. Really? (01:01:39) Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's only three (01:01:41) guides on the school of 120 and none of (01:01:43) them are allowed to answer a question. (01:01:44) It's radically (01:01:45) socratic. And then Sudbury is We don't (01:01:48) even have those guides, people. (01:01:51) The kids write their own stinking (01:01:52) guides. They they The kids write the (01:01:54) Constitution. They run the show. If they (01:01:56) don't want to learn anything, they (01:01:57) don't. Um, but eventually they will, and (01:01:59) we just trust that they will, and it (01:02:01) mostly works, (01:02:03) mostly, but not entirely, right? Because (01:02:05) nothing's perfect. So, that's one piece (01:02:07) of the puzzle is the (01:02:09) school experience. I'll tell you what (01:02:11) Peter talks about school that really um, (01:02:14) you know, everybody will recognize (01:02:16) whether you're sending your kid to I (01:02:17) sent my kid to regular public school (01:02:19) kids to regular public schools. Um, they (01:02:21) survived anyway. Yeah. And the thing (01:02:24) that's different is that the school year (01:02:26) is like a month longer than when I was (01:02:29) going to school the day is long. And (01:02:30) then this the thing that um you know (01:02:33) sort of means that there's unending (01:02:35) external locus of control is that after (01:02:37) school instead of having free time (01:02:40) you're generally off to an adult-run (01:02:41) activity which can be really fun and you (01:02:44) can learn drawing and you can learn (01:02:45) soccer but it is sort of more school (01:02:47) right? there's an adult showing you what (01:02:49) to do and sort of looking at what you're (01:02:51) doing and maybe not grading it but (01:02:53) commenting on it. And people always say (01:02:55) like am I against the everybody gets a (01:02:57) trophy culture? That was a question for (01:02:59) a long time now. Everybody and like I'm (01:03:00) I'm against adults being there. Um (01:03:02) because when they're there not only will (01:03:04) they give a trophy, they'll also say try (01:03:06) it this way or you guys are arguing, let (01:03:08) me solve this and helicoptering. Well, (01:03:12) just it's me too. I mean when I'm with (01:03:14) my kids, my kids will tell you this and (01:03:16) they're in their 20s. It's like I'm (01:03:17) like, "Don't look at your phone. You're (01:03:18) crossing the street." I mean, I'm (01:03:20) there's there's it's inevitable that (01:03:22) when an adult is with younger people, (01:03:26) maybe maybe most people stop by their (01:03:28) 20s, but but basically when you're with (01:03:30) younger kids, you see them squabbbling (01:03:32) and wasting time or being mean or doing (01:03:34) something risky and you will jump in. (01:03:36) It's just inevitable. So, the only (01:03:38) solution is to not always be there. You (01:03:40) can, you know, it's like, "Oh, I barely (01:03:42) pay attention." It's like, "Yes, but (01:03:43) you're there." They'll come to you when (01:03:44) they're annoyed or they'll come to you (01:03:46) when they're hungry or they'll come to (01:03:47) you when they've stubbed a toe and you (01:03:49) have to let them not have you to come to (01:03:52) for them to realize, oh, it's not that (01:03:53) big a deal and I can I can live. And so (01:03:56) that makes you have more of an internal (01:03:58) and locus of control when there isn't (01:03:59) always an adult there to outsource your (01:04:02) discomfort to. One of the ways I think (01:04:05) about this that I think is deeply (01:04:06) connected to your work and to these (01:04:08) ideas is this weird thing. Oh, good. And (01:04:12) I well I I bring it up from time to time (01:04:14) in these conversations because it um it (01:04:18) it almost roots my whole ideology. Oh (01:04:20) boy. And that is we Drum roll please. Um (01:04:24) I don't know what I'm capable of. Oh, of (01:04:27) course. But that's weird because I Who (01:04:29) knows me better than me? No, you never (01:04:32) know. I mean, you know, if this if we're (01:04:34) in a famine, you're going to figure out (01:04:35) do you know how to grow potatoes or not, (01:04:37) right? I mean, you're gonna figure out (01:04:39) all sorts of things depending on the (01:04:40) circumstances that you're in. Which is (01:04:42) why it's always good to go a little bit (01:04:44) beyond your zone of comfort because then (01:04:46) you find out, oh, I can do this. Which (01:04:48) is why, let me get back to let go. The (01:04:50) let go experience where we're telling (01:04:52) the kid, you have to go do something new (01:04:53) that you haven't done before for one (01:04:55) reason or another that you feel like (01:04:57) you're ready to do and then they do it. (01:04:59) And it's just I was just at a school. I (01:05:01) was looking at all the kids write write (01:05:03) their project on a leaf. You know, I (01:05:04) rode a my bike. it turns out it's easier (01:05:07) than I thought or I'm I wash the dishes. (01:05:09) I learned don't overflow the sink, you (01:05:12) know? I mean, everybody is learning when (01:05:13) they try something new and we have and (01:05:16) and they're doing it on their own and (01:05:17) they're responsible for something, (01:05:19) right? Yeah. So, that's all I'm saying. (01:05:21) Give your kids those those opportunities (01:05:24) and then they get to see what they are (01:05:26) capable of. Well, and that's the thing (01:05:28) that is so (01:05:31) um miraculous, right, is that we are (01:05:34) this enormously adaptable creature. (01:05:37) Yeah. No, we live in Alaska and we live (01:05:39) in subsahar. Not me. I live in, you (01:05:42) know, 75 to 76 degrees, but other people (01:05:45) manage to live other places. But even (01:05:46) just like our capability like what like (01:05:49) the what we're capable of intellectually (01:05:52) you know skills and crafts and all the (01:05:54) things that constitute like human life (01:05:55) in society and you unless you piece by (01:06:00) piece teach yourself train yourself that (01:06:04) you're going to go through (01:06:06) you're going to have to survive what I (01:06:08) what I like to think of as the creative (01:06:10) sequence. So, the creative sequence (01:06:12) sounds something like this. And it's out (01:06:13) there in kind of meme form, but as a (01:06:15) producer, I I know this painfully well. (01:06:18) Okay, I have an idea. Okay, I think it's (01:06:20) going to be awesome. And then I try to (01:06:23) start making that thing. And pretty (01:06:25) quickly, I realize, damn, this is hard. (01:06:28) This is harder than I thought. And then (01:06:30) you say And then you realize this point (01:06:32) happens where it's not good, right? You (01:06:35) say, this sucks. Yeah. This this isn't (01:06:37) going to work. And then and then often (01:06:41) you say, "I think I suck. I'm not good (01:06:45) at this." Yeah. I'm I'm an idiot. Yeah. (01:06:48) Why did I do this? Why did Now (01:06:50) everybody's going to think I'm a (01:06:51) complete (01:06:54) But if you stay with it, usually you'll (01:06:56) get back to, hey, this is actually (01:06:58) better than I thought it was going to (01:06:59) be. This is actually working out. Oh, I (01:07:02) solved a couple of those other problems (01:07:03) now. (01:07:05) And you might even come back and get to, (01:07:07) oh, this was actually awesome. It was (01:07:09) actually better than I thought. Oh, I (01:07:10) can't wait to do it again. In that (01:07:12) sequence, you have to experience and (01:07:14) survive to go down, right? It is the (01:07:16) hero's journey. It is the going off into (01:07:19) the wilderness and and facing the dragon (01:07:21) and coming back a a changed warrior, but (01:07:24) it happens like every time in every (01:07:27) project. And um and it's it's like it (01:07:30) doesn't even matter even when you're (01:07:31) expert and you know exactly your field, (01:07:34) it's still you're doing something new (01:07:36) every new day. And it's how can it not (01:07:39) be that the sooner we get those (01:07:41) experiences the more functional and and (01:07:43) free we are going to be as people. Um, (01:07:47) you know, you write for I agree. Well, (01:07:49) you write for Reason magazine, which is (01:07:51) a libertarian organization. And I think (01:07:53) that this is a very these are the the (01:07:55) the seeds of being able to live in a (01:07:59) free society is the way I that was that (01:08:02) was actually this show. If it has a (01:08:06) theme, a theme, it's how do we raise and (01:08:10) learn (01:08:10) ourselves, kids that can live, thrive in (01:08:13) a free society and also want to keep it (01:08:15) free. Because I think one of the (01:08:17) problems that happens, and I'd like to (01:08:19) hear how you think about this, um, is (01:08:23) that when you are so anxious, when you (01:08:25) feel so incapable, you look to somebody (01:08:28) else. Where's mom and dad? Okay, I'm now (01:08:31) out in the world and I'm an adult. Maybe (01:08:32) my parents have passed away. Well, (01:08:34) where's the replacement mom and dad? (01:08:36) It's going to be government. It's going (01:08:37) to be other authorities. You're not (01:08:40) going to look inward to yourself, to (01:08:43) your community, to your friends. You're (01:08:44) going to look up and say, "Who who can (01:08:47) help me with this because I know I can't (01:08:49) do it." How do you think about that? I (01:08:52) think about it in a very similar way. (01:08:55) And um and I'm going to use this to sort (01:08:57) of pivot to an experience that we've (01:09:00) taken out of kids' lives that I think (01:09:02) enures us to that which is free play. I (01:09:06) mean we really haven't talked about that (01:09:07) at all but in free play when somebody (01:09:10) isn't organizing you everything has to (01:09:13) you have to build basically a society (01:09:16) and you have to say you want to start a (01:09:19) a foursquare game something as simple as (01:09:21) that. You have to get kids together. You (01:09:23) have five kids. who's going to go in (01:09:25) last? How are you going to decide who (01:09:27) comes in? Um, was the ball on the line (01:09:29) or was it out? You have to argue. You (01:09:31) have to figure it out together. And then (01:09:33) you get bored and you say, "Let's do it (01:09:35) with two balls." And so you've come up (01:09:36) with an entirely new system and that (01:09:38) didn't work. Let's do it with a balloon. (01:09:40) Oh, that's really fun. Let's do it again (01:09:42) tomorrow. Endlessly, every second of (01:09:45) play is coming up with a plan, seeing if (01:09:49) it works, getting buy in. That's (01:09:51) democracy, right? That's (01:09:53) entrepreneurship. Like, can I get other (01:09:55) people to do my idea? Do they think it's (01:09:58) great? Do they have a better idea? How (01:10:00) do I get along with people? I'm a jerk. (01:10:02) Nobody wants to play with me. I better (01:10:03) stop being a jerk. And every time that a (01:10:07) school has started doing this, and I was (01:10:08) just at a school on Thursday, I was (01:10:11) watching all the kids play. There were (01:10:13) two I mean, I don't even know why the (01:10:14) kids were in two different groups, but (01:10:15) there was a group playing soccer over (01:10:16) here and a group, I think, playing (01:10:18) soccer over here. All these different (01:10:19) ages. And the the lady who runs the (01:10:22) school said that um when when she (01:10:25) proposed this having all the ages (01:10:27) together and not having the adults she (01:10:29) used to have regular recess where each (01:10:32) teacher was assigned a zone that they (01:10:34) were in charge of. It sounds like you (01:10:36) know the panopticon or something like (01:10:38) KGB. Again the p the prison analogy for (01:10:40) school is always in play. Right. Right. (01:10:42) Right. But it's not in in play. In play (01:10:45) it's not there. So she said no I want (01:10:47) all the kids to be meeting you know to (01:10:48) be playing together. And the teacher was (01:10:50) like, "No, we want to decide when our (01:10:51) kids go out and what are, you know, how (01:10:53) are the third graders going to get along (01:10:54) with the kindergarteners." And she said, (01:10:56) "Just wait and see." And she said, "It (01:10:57) took a while for them not to interfere." (01:10:59) But then when I was out there, it had (01:11:00) already been going on for a couple (01:11:01) months. And the teachers are all clumped (01:11:03) together because they're having more fun (01:11:05) because they're talking to each other. (01:11:06) And then the kids have organized (01:11:08) themselves. And they were really little (01:11:10) kids up to the bigger kids. And it we (01:11:14) are we are hardwired to make culture to (01:11:18) make things happen to have fun to play (01:11:21) and to to create right and you're (01:11:24) wondering what happens when we take that (01:11:26) away from people and they look well (01:11:28) somebody else solved this problem for me (01:11:29) somebody else tell me what I should be (01:11:31) doing somebody else tell me was this (01:11:32) good or bad it's like no in play all of (01:11:35) that becomes activated and then you do (01:11:38) it every day and you've made your (01:11:40) friends and you've made your games and (01:11:42) and there hasn't been an adult who is (01:11:45) always the authority that you turn to. (01:11:47) So without play, you are taking that all (01:11:51) that practice out of childhood of (01:11:54) getting ready for democracy, adulthood, (01:11:57) responsibility and freedom. So you got (01:11:59) to give it back. (01:12:01) I um one of (01:12:03) the examples of the culture shift that I (01:12:06) I personally look to is the rise of the (01:12:10) complex Lego set that's really just a (01:12:13) model. So I have all the Legos I've ever (01:12:15) had since I was a little boy. They're in (01:12:17) a giant box. Yeah. Well, I'm a little (01:12:19) there's a little OCD in that they're (01:12:21) they're grouped in ziplocks by color. Oh (01:12:23) my god. Okay. No. But um I would get the (01:12:28) set. Mhm. I'd build the set with the (01:12:29) instructions and sometimes I'd learn (01:12:31) some cool things and make a hinge. (01:12:34) Pretty soon I'd smash it. Yeah. Never to (01:12:37) be rebuilt that way again. And I'd build (01:12:39) my own crazy things or I try Emergent (01:12:42) Order. Yes. I'd build I mean actually (01:12:44) the Lego movie, the the first Lego movie (01:12:47) I went to see it is this is a (01:12:50) celebration of free play with this toy (01:12:52) that is this free play toy. And is that (01:12:55) what it was about? Because I fell (01:12:56) asleep. Oh my god. Oh no. You missed a (01:12:58) great movie. It's the most emerging (01:13:00) order movie ever. Um, we have a great (01:13:03) short from our Ecom Pop series about the (01:13:05) Lego movie. So, you can just watch that. (01:13:07) Okay, that's great. With with Andrew, (01:13:09) right? Um, oh, I love him. So, um, (01:13:12) there's one other piece of the puzzle (01:13:14) that we haven't talked about and that is (01:13:17) I saw a story on Twitter recently of a (01:13:20) woman who had some I can tell you the (01:13:24) story. Some Georgia lady. Are we talking (01:13:26) about that? I think so. Oh my god. Yes. (01:13:28) So, so you tell the story and and you (01:13:30) know where I'm going with this on in the (01:13:32) American legal system. So, lay it all (01:13:34) out because this is the piece of the (01:13:35) puzzle that isn't just about we as (01:13:37) parents making decisions and retraining (01:13:40) ourselves and our kids. This is about (01:13:42) our legal system that tells you, oh, (01:13:44) what are you going to do? Some free (01:13:45) range stuff. How about prison for you? (01:13:47) Right. She actually didn't end up (01:13:49) spending the night in prison. Um, so (01:13:51) Georgia mom Britney Patterson, four (01:13:53) kids, oldest is 16, youngest is 10 about (01:13:56) to turn 11. and his name is Saurin. Mom (01:13:58) has to take her older kid, older son to (01:14:01) the doctors um on an afternoon, actually (01:14:04) I can tell you it was October 30th and (01:14:07) her younger son's going to come with (01:14:08) them, but it's time to leave and he's (01:14:10) not there. And she tries to call him and (01:14:12) his phone is dead. And she decides, (01:14:13) okay, I'm just going to leave without (01:14:14) him. Look, my dad is home, i.e. the (01:14:16) kid's grandpa is home. I live near my (01:14:19) mom, my two sisters. Everybody's within (01:14:21) two-minute walk, walking distance. And (01:14:24) my son likes to play in the woods. So, (01:14:25) either he'll be at home with grandpa or (01:14:27) he'll be playing in the woods or he (01:14:28) could go to one of the relatives. I (01:14:29) don't care. It's going to be fine. (01:14:31) Drives the kid to the um to the doctor. (01:14:34) Gets a (01:14:35) call. So, instead of staying home, (01:14:38) Saurin decided to walk to town. Less (01:14:40) than a mile walk. And the town has 370 (01:14:44) people in it. Okay. Mineral Bluff, (01:14:47) Georgia. Somebody sees him outside. A (01:14:50) child alone. Oh my god. It's like (01:14:52) seeing, you know, an escaped lemur from (01:14:54) the zoo. What's it doing here? You know, (01:14:55) there shouldn't be a child, right? So, (01:14:58) this uh passer by goes up to him and (01:15:02) says, "Are you okay?" And he says, (01:15:03) "Yeah, I'm fine. Where's your mom?" "Oh, (01:15:04) she's off at the doctor's office." Like, (01:15:07) so that should be enough, right? He's (01:15:09) fine, right? Right. Nothing bad is (01:15:10) happening to him. He's not running into (01:15:12) the street. He's not on fire, right? (01:15:14) There's there's nothing chasing him. (01:15:15) He's just a kid walking. And actually, (01:15:17) he'd done something very sweet, which is (01:15:19) he'd gone to the gas station and talked (01:15:20) to his friend's grandma who works there. (01:15:22) I mean, that's sort of heartening, (01:15:24) right? Um, so the sheriff, who's a lady, (01:15:28) calls the mom, uh, whose name is Britney (01:15:30) Patterson, and says, "Do you know where (01:15:31) your son is?" She said, "Yeah, he's at (01:15:33) home. He's in the woods." "No, no, no. (01:15:34) He's outside walking," says the sheriff. (01:15:36) "Oh, no." And she said, "How did he get (01:15:38) here?" asked the sheriff. And the and (01:15:40) the mom says, "Well, I think you know as (01:15:42) well as I do. He must have walked from (01:15:43) house, right? We live right near there." (01:15:45) And she said, "Well, he shouldn't be (01:15:47) doing that. Anything terrible could have (01:15:49) happened." And this is this is the the (01:15:50) crux of the matter because just because (01:15:52) you can imagine something terrible (01:15:53) happening doesn't mean there's any (01:15:55) likelihood of it happening and we can't (01:15:57) how dare you drive a car. You might die (01:15:59) in an accident. It's like yeah we do all (01:16:01) of these things all of the time. Stairs (01:16:03) in your house. Don't you know how many (01:16:04) children fall downstairs? You know the (01:16:06) best way to stay safe? Stop breathing (01:16:08) now. Right. Right. Then you'll be safe (01:16:10) forever. I always say you should puree (01:16:12) all your food. But anyway, um so the (01:16:15) sheriff takes the kid home. You know the (01:16:17) grandpa says you should have told me. (01:16:18) Whatever. Mom gets home. She reads him (01:16:20) the riot act. Hey, tell tell grandpa (01:16:22) when you're leaving the house. Okay. But (01:16:23) she figures that's it. (01:16:26) No. 6:30 at night, there's the sheriff (01:16:29) again with another sheriff with her. (01:16:31) It's like and and the the mom said she's (01:16:33) like she's a realtor, so she's talking (01:16:35) on the phone. She's like, "Hang on a (01:16:36) second." It's like, "No, of course. Put (01:16:38) down the phone. Come outside." And you (01:16:40) can see the footage. It's all over um (01:16:42) the internet now of the officer says, (01:16:44) "Uh, put your hands behind your back and (01:16:47) turn around." And she says, "Am I being (01:16:49) arrested?" And the sheriff says, "Yes." (01:16:51) And she says, "For what?" She said, (01:16:53) "Reckless conduct. The reckless conduct (01:16:55) of not knowing where your kid was for an (01:16:58) hour." And they take her they they take (01:17:01) her purse, they take her phone, they (01:17:04) take her to the police station, you (01:17:05) know, fingerprinted, body scan, mug (01:17:09) shot, and an orange jumpsuit. I don't (01:17:12) know why they're always orange, but she (01:17:13) gets an orange jumpsuit. And and they (01:17:14) expected her to spend the night. They (01:17:15) gave her a bed roll, but they forgot (01:17:17) that she was wearing an Apple Watch. And (01:17:19) uh so she calls her mother-in-law, says, (01:17:21) "I'm in the I'm at the county jail. Come (01:17:23) get me. Somebody bail me out." And so (01:17:26) the relatives quickly come there and (01:17:27) she's bailed out before she spends the (01:17:29) night in jail. But they were going to (01:17:30) have her spend the night in jail because (01:17:32) for an hour she didn't know that her son (01:17:35) had decided to take a walk like, I don't (01:17:37) know, a human being. (01:17:40) So the outrage on her behalf and I have (01:17:43) to say I broke the story in reason and (01:17:45) it has gone around the world. I mean (01:17:47) it's just it's it's legend already. Um (01:17:50) but because I'm struggling not I'm (01:17:52) grinding my teeth in absolute (01:17:56) rage. I'm like can we put the officers (01:18:00) in jail for a long time? A lot of people (01:18:02) are asking about that. Can we (01:18:04) criminalize this? So So here's what (01:18:06) happened. Um the next day she was (01:18:09) visited by child protective services and (01:18:13) then they wrote up a quote unquote (01:18:15) safety plan. And safety plans are really (01:18:18) interesting and you should have somebody (01:18:19) named Diane Redleaf come and speak to (01:18:21) you about them. Um she's been fighting (01:18:22) for parents rights against overweening (01:18:25) government systems for a long time. But (01:18:27) a safety plan is something that um child (01:18:30) protective services asks you to sign and (01:18:31) it it outlines certain things that (01:18:33) you're supposed to do. And in her case, (01:18:36) um, from now on, anytime she left the (01:18:38) home, she would have to let all four of (01:18:41) her children know, I am leaving the home (01:18:43) now, 16year-old, 15year-old, and Saurin (01:18:46) has since turned 11. Um, which I think (01:18:49) she probably did, but if she, you know, (01:18:51) suddenly realizes, oh my god, you know, (01:18:53) the we need the government to tell us (01:18:54) these things because we're not living in (01:18:56) a completely fascist state at all. He (01:18:59) said, so, so A, let your kids know every (01:19:02) time you leave the house. B, assign a, (01:19:04) and this this gets me because it's not a (01:19:06) real word, a safety person. Assign a (01:19:08) safety person to your 11-year-old. And (01:19:11) that would be somebody who is always (01:19:13) aware of where he is and is always, you (01:19:15) know, accountable like, where is he? Oh, (01:19:17) I can tell you he's exactly there. But (01:19:19) the thing that I found most dystopian (01:19:21) was that she was also required to (01:19:24) download onto her phone a tracking app (01:19:27) that would allow her to track her son (01:19:31) 247. and she had to download it in front (01:19:33) of the case manager who would make sure (01:19:35) that it was on her phone. And so, first (01:19:38) of all, the the incredible just (01:19:40) affronttery of, you know, you couldn't (01:19:42) possibly do this on your own and we (01:19:44) couldn't possibly trust you. But the (01:19:47) thing about tracking that's so (01:19:48) interesting is that what what the (01:19:50) government was doing was saying you must (01:19:51) track your kid. And you might recall (01:19:54) that until the iPhone came along, the (01:19:56) only people we tracked were criminals on (01:20:00) work release, felons on work release (01:20:02) from prison. And so they had their (01:20:04) little ankle monitor, right? Not even so (01:20:05) little. I've seen them. Um, and you (01:20:08) know, for the prison, now we have this. (01:20:10) Well, here's the deal. For the prisoner, (01:20:12) with the ankle monitor, it's better than (01:20:13) being in prison, but it's not freedom. (01:20:17) It's not freedom. And so what they were (01:20:19) saying to her is you must be his warden (01:20:22) and he must be your prisoner. And you (01:20:26) know if a parent chooses to track a kid (01:20:28) that's up to them. But being told you (01:20:30) must track a kid is being told that you (01:20:33) must not treat him as somebody you (01:20:34) trust, right? You're not even allowed to (01:20:37) show him that you trust him. You're not (01:20:38) allowed to trust him. It must you're a (01:20:41) monitor. You are a warden. And so that (01:20:43) struck me as it doesn't strike anyone (01:20:45) else, but that struck me as the worst (01:20:47) part of this that you were you were (01:20:49) interfering with the parent child (01:20:50) relationship that should be based on I (01:20:53) believe in you. I trust you. I told you (01:20:54) not to do that and now you did it and (01:20:56) you know there'll be some consequences (01:20:58) but I'll trust you a new you're never (01:21:00) allowed to trust anymore. The government (01:21:02) says trust is for you know maybe uh New (01:21:05) Zealanders but not in America. Well, (01:21:09) when you look at the behavior of of of (01:21:11) governments with regard to COVID, I (01:21:13) would say that not New Zealand because (01:21:14) that was a prison. I was trying to think (01:21:16) of another place, whatever, you know, (01:21:18) Zambia, some place else. So, this um (01:21:22) there is and we've we've had (01:21:24) interactions on email and otherwise (01:21:26) about this over the years. One of which (01:21:28) being around um changes to the to the (01:21:32) state laws as they pertain to what is (01:21:34) called neglect. Right. So just talk (01:21:37) about that really quickly like what what (01:21:40) is because this is a system thing that (01:21:41) if you are watching if you want to get (01:21:43) active in your in a local political (01:21:46) matter that actually has a big impact on (01:21:48) your family life being aware of this (01:21:50) becoming someone who supports it being (01:21:53) reformed. It's a big deal. It's like a (01:21:55) huge deal. It can save families from (01:21:57) being ripped apart by the state. All (01:21:59) right. So, first of all, let me say that (01:22:01) um I always say I'm the Nancy Grace of (01:22:03) these stories because, you know, she (01:22:05) would just go on to they all come to me (01:22:08) and it starts seeming like they're (01:22:10) happening all the time everywhere. And (01:22:11) thank goodness they're not. And if they (01:22:13) were happening all the time everywhere, (01:22:14) just like any news, it would become (01:22:16) boring. But this is a real outrage and (01:22:18) an egregious case of government (01:22:20) oversight. But overstepping, but you're (01:22:22) right. We have at Let Grow, we have (01:22:25) changed the neglect laws or helped (01:22:27) change. We don't do it ourselves, but we (01:22:29) helped pass um what we call reasonable (01:22:32) childhood independence laws in so far (01:22:34) eight states. And uh the first one was (01:22:36) in Utah and then came Texas, Oklahoma, (01:22:40) uh Virginia, Connecticut. Oh, (01:22:42) Connecticut. A blue state, Illinois. (01:22:44) Wow. Illinois, right? Montana, and the (01:22:47) Virginia. Did I say Virginia? Yeah. (01:22:48) Okay. Well, I'm going to say it again (01:22:50) because Virginia was really amazing. I (01:22:51) mean, remember that there's that's a (01:22:53) state where there's a lot of contention (01:22:54) about what our what our parents rights, (01:22:57) but this well and there was was it Kim (01:22:59) I'm forgetting her name now. Kim Brooks. (01:23:01) Kim Brooks. She had a horrible (01:23:03) experience that she wrote about in (01:23:05) Virginia while not being a resident (01:23:06) there where she was visiting her (01:23:08) parents. She she visited her parents. (01:23:10) She does the thing that every reasonable (01:23:12) person has done with with kids, which (01:23:14) is, oh, it's not super hot. I got to run (01:23:18) into Target to get some headphones for (01:23:19) my kid before we get back on the thing. (01:23:22) Some (01:23:23) person person the (01:23:29) decides they're going to be a good (01:23:30) Samaritan and stand off the back and (01:23:33) call the cops on her, but not not make (01:23:36) not watch over the kids, not watch the (01:23:38) kid, not be not have any courage and (01:23:40) approach her directly. No, this is so (01:23:43) often it seems to be this way too. It's (01:23:45) these um busy bodies who don't want to (01:23:49) be bothered by having to put in a police (01:23:51) report or be named. They just call, "Oh, (01:23:55) I (01:23:57) care. I the the disgust in my body (01:24:01) language is disgust." And your voice. (01:24:02) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's (01:24:04) disgusting. These are like the society (01:24:06) destroyers as far as I'm concerned. Well (01:24:08) intended. Oh, they're so well. I do (01:24:10) agree that it would be way better if (01:24:12) you're concerned about a kid in a car. (01:24:14) wait there for a few minutes, you know, (01:24:16) because nine times out of 10, the parent (01:24:18) is running an errand and it's much (01:24:19) easier and some ways safer to keep them (01:24:22) in the car. More kids die in parking (01:24:23) lots than die in parked cars. Did you (01:24:25) know that? So, it's one of these. Right. (01:24:28) Yeah. So, (01:24:29) um digression for a second. I think the (01:24:32) reason that so many pe people are (01:24:34) calling these days is two things. One is (01:24:36) that we're so used to being told if you (01:24:38) see something, say something. And (01:24:39) there's a kid outside and there's a kid (01:24:41) in the car and isn't that dangerous? I (01:24:42) might as well call. I think I'm being (01:24:44) safe. But also, we have phones. I mean, (01:24:46) until I So, we can do it. We can do it. (01:24:48) Can we do it? Because if if I, you know, (01:24:50) if I saw a kid in a car and I had to, (01:24:52) you know, finish my own shopping and go (01:24:54) home and then call 911. I would never do (01:24:57) that. I would never remember that I'd (01:24:58) seen a kid in a car or seen a kid (01:25:00) walking along the side of the street. (01:25:02) But because we have phones, it's just (01:25:03) immediate. See something, say something. (01:25:05) And we haven't told, we haven't been (01:25:06) told what the something is. It's like a (01:25:09) something is not just a child outside. (01:25:11) something should be something dangerous (01:25:13) and really truly egregious as opposed to (01:25:16) a kid. I think it's an indication of (01:25:18) like a disintegration of a certain civil (01:25:21) society ethos which is to say I if I'm (01:25:25) going to really be part of the (01:25:26) community, I'm going to be part of the (01:25:28) community. So, I'm going to treat you (01:25:30) like a person. Right. And also, it's (01:25:32) again it's and and the the the thing (01:25:34) we're talking about, it's drive by (01:25:36) caring. It's drive by caring. It's drive (01:25:37) by caring. It's also let's bring in the (01:25:39) authorities. Mhm. The subway used the (01:25:42) subway here used to have a sign that (01:25:43) drove me crazy. They don't have it (01:25:44) lately. Maybe they've evolved that said (01:25:47) if you see a sick passenger, do not (01:25:49) attempt to help them. Call a an MTA (01:25:52) Manhattan Transit Authority or or a (01:25:55) police officer. I'm like, but also it's (01:25:57) like don't do not be a fellow human, you (01:26:00) know, do not assume that you could (01:26:01) possibly help. Do not have any (01:26:03) compassion well up in you or if you do, (01:26:05) please, you know, outsource it to (01:26:07) someone else. But anyways, I wanted to (01:26:09) tell you about the laws. Yes. So, we've (01:26:11) gotten these laws passed and as you can (01:26:12) see, it is red states and blue states (01:26:15) and purple states. Great. And the law is (01:26:17) called a reasonable childhood (01:26:19) independence law. And what it says is (01:26:22) that it just defines neglect better (01:26:24) because in so many states, neglect is (01:26:27) defined as proper, you know, a lack of (01:26:30) proper supervision. It's like, well, (01:26:33) that's pretty open-ended because what I (01:26:35) think of, I let my nine-year-old by the (01:26:36) subway alone. You wouldn't let them do (01:26:38) it till 15. Okay. But what's proper? (01:26:40) What's proper? So, our definition is (01:26:43) that neglect is when you put your kid in (01:26:45) obvious serious and I would add sort of (01:26:47) likely danger. Serious danger. Obvious (01:26:51) danger. Not anytime you see a child (01:26:53) unsupervised or anytime you take your (01:26:55) eyes off your kid. And this is passed (01:26:58) with bipartisan sponsorship in almost (01:27:00) all the states and unanimously in five (01:27:02) of them, including Virginia. Because (01:27:05) anywhere you are on any political (01:27:07) spectrum, you don't want to have your (01:27:09) rational, reasonable, loving, or (01:27:10) sometimes seat of the pants and not (01:27:12) perfect parenting decisions (01:27:14) second-guessed by the state. (01:27:17) The (01:27:18) um one of the things that I tend to go (01:27:22) towards in thinking about why this has (01:27:25) happened (01:27:26) is that it's a it's wealth disease. (01:27:29) Yeah. Um, and I'm going to offer why I (01:27:33) think that might not be a sufficient (01:27:35) hypothesis. But first, so what what what (01:27:38) am I saying? Um, we are a wealthy (01:27:40) society. Wealthy societies also have (01:27:42) fewer kids and we don't lose as many (01:27:45) kids to. I mean, like it used to be I (01:27:47) think I think if you go back to 1950, a (01:27:50) like a quarter of children born in the (01:27:53) United States wouldn't live to see the (01:27:55) age 15. I I looked No, that's wrong. But (01:27:59) it was like four times more than now (01:28:01) would die before they were age of five. (01:28:02) I forget. Yeah, there it was like there (01:28:04) was there was a stat. I'm not (01:28:05) remembering it perfectly, but it was (01:28:06) like substantially right higher child (01:28:09) mortality. Right. So um we now (01:28:13) have fewer precious fragile teacups with (01:28:18) more wealth, more time. Parents today (01:28:20) spend more time something like eight (01:28:22) hours a week or something more with (01:28:24) their kids than we used to. So for all (01:28:26) the talk of mom and dad are working and (01:28:29) no, we're actually spending more time (01:28:30) with our kids than we used to, right? (01:28:31) Which is also why the surgeon general (01:28:33) just issued that report saying that (01:28:35) parents are going crazy. Oh, I mocked (01:28:37) that report mercilessly. Well, I don't (01:28:38) think you should mock it because I think (01:28:39) it's true because if you I don't want to (01:28:41) hear him tell me anything. Shut up. That (01:28:43) that was my mockery right about this (01:28:45) one. I mean, really what we're doing is (01:28:47) we demand so much of parents that they (01:28:49) really that we're going to arrest you (01:28:50) because you didn't walk your kid, you (01:28:52) know, uh, a mile to the town of 370 to (01:28:55) get a popsicle and back. That is going (01:28:57) to drive you crazy. He might be right. (01:28:58) He's part of the problem. I'd rather him (01:29:00) go away. But he's right in this. Nine (01:29:02) times out of 10, he's telling me (01:29:04) something stupid. He's putting a warning (01:29:06) label on things. Or like in Cal, (01:29:08) California is the best with that. (01:29:10) Putting warning labels on buildings. (01:29:11) Don't eat the building. It's got (01:29:13) cancerous things in the building. You (01:29:14) shouldn't eat the building. That's (01:29:15) right. Right. Anyway, right. Um, so the (01:29:19) So, okay, wealthier society, more (01:29:21) sensitive, more concerned about a (01:29:24) smaller and smaller set of concerns that (01:29:27) still feel big because that's the way (01:29:28) humans are. (01:29:31) Except the Japanese still let their (01:29:33) three-year-olds run around the entire (01:29:38) uh the Danes throw their kids out into (01:29:40) these danger into these danger (01:29:42) playgrounds. They call it danger. Um the (01:29:45) Germans joke there's wealthy societies (01:29:48) that haven't become that's true (01:29:52) lunatics. Do you have any way so it it (01:29:56) belies the idea that wealth necessarily (01:29:59) gives rise to safety psychosis? And I (01:30:03) don't know what the answer is. It's (01:30:04) weird. We're the frontier people. We (01:30:07) were. Yeah. Now we're like a bunch of (01:30:09) you know as I strap you into your wagon. (01:30:12) Um um uh her first name is escaping me. (01:30:15) Morano. A nation of wimps. Ara Morano. A (01:30:19) nation of wimps. She wrote right in like (01:30:21) I think it was 99. (01:30:24) Uh whenever she wrote hers wrote (01:30:27) paranoid parenting around then too. (01:30:29) Yeah. They're so smart. And she saw this (01:30:31) rise in this in this mental health (01:30:33) crisis calling at the university. She (01:30:36) got on like an email list of the (01:30:38) university mental health clinics. I (01:30:40) didn't even know where the mental health (01:30:41) clinic was at Penn State and I don't (01:30:43) think I knew anyone that knew where it (01:30:44) was. I'm not saying that there isn't a (01:30:46) reason to have that or that you (01:30:47) shouldn't know where it is, but No. So, (01:30:50) I'm interested. You're right. Like, what (01:30:51) is different about I mean, Japan, I can (01:30:53) sort of say that there has always been (01:30:56) this tradition and maybe the television (01:30:58) show helped. You know, the television (01:30:59) show that's now on Netflix called Old (01:31:01) Enough. It's been running for 30 years (01:31:03) in Japan where it's called My First (01:31:04) Erand. And it is a delightful right of (01:31:08) passage when your kid runs their first (01:31:10) errand, whether they're going to get the (01:31:12) rice or the meat or, you know, meet (01:31:13) daddy at work. And what I love about it (01:31:16) is that as you see these really little (01:31:18) kids, age five and three, you know, (01:31:20) going to the market, sometimes they're (01:31:23) crying and nobody stops the film. Nobody (01:31:26) stops it from happening. Oh, this is too (01:31:28) much for the kid. Oh, look, he's crying. (01:31:30) Oh, that's traumatic. Don't do that to (01:31:31) him. Instead, there's the there's sort (01:31:33) of a laugh track, but there's also sort (01:31:35) of an a track and cut to the room full (01:31:38) of Japanese people all talking about it (01:31:40) as they watch it kind of thing. Right. (01:31:42) Right. Right. But there but they go, (01:31:43) "Oh, look." And instead of thinking he (01:31:45) can't handle it, the assumption is he's (01:31:48) going to be fine. Let him start going on (01:31:50) the errand. And that's I have to say (01:31:51) it's just like the Lero experience. Once (01:31:53) you see the kid doing this, you know, (01:31:55) first of all, they get interested. It's (01:31:56) like, wait a minute, where's the store? (01:31:57) Or how do I find the right kind of beef (01:31:59) or whatever? And so it's that's woven (01:32:03) into their their sense of who they are (01:32:05) is that we're the country that sends the (01:32:07) 5-year-olds in their little hats off to (01:32:09) kindergarten and everybody knows if (01:32:11) there's a kid wearing a little yellow (01:32:12) hat that means it's their first year (01:32:14) walking to school and we'll help them. (01:32:16) And when I've told people about that (01:32:17) here they say if they wear a yellow hat (01:32:19) it's like saying predator here I am you (01:32:22) know I'm not one of those unfun kids (01:32:24) who's in first grade. I'm a prime you (01:32:27) know target. So, we really, it's back to (01:32:29) that worst first thinking here. We've (01:32:31) really, we've institutionalized or put (01:32:34) in the water this idea that if you're (01:32:36) not thinking of the worst case scenario (01:32:38) all the time, there's something wrong (01:32:39) with you. That's why I'm talking to you (01:32:40) today. There's something wrong with me (01:32:42) because I'm not thinking that way. I (01:32:45) wonder if one of the things (01:32:48) about (01:32:50) America that might have led us down this (01:32:54) lunatic path Yeah. is that we are kind (01:32:58) of a uniquely progressive country. And I (01:33:01) mean that not in the political (01:33:02) progressive sense, but in the the land (01:33:05) of opportunity. The place where you go, (01:33:07) you leave the old world behind. You (01:33:09) leave your old ways behind. It's new. (01:33:12) New new, bigger, better, faster. (01:33:14) Everything's new. We don't have We (01:33:16) aren't a blood and soil nation. We don't (01:33:19) have hundreds of hundreds and hundreds (01:33:22) of years of the same peoples doing the (01:33:25) same things. We're this super diverse (01:33:27) melting pot (01:33:29) that's reinventing ourselves all the (01:33:31) time and like trailblazing on culture (01:33:33) for better and I think in this case (01:33:35) worse. Okay. And so we don't I don't (01:33:38) know how the (01:33:40) trailblazingness safety and off camerara (01:33:43) I was telling you that I I'm I'm finding (01:33:45) myself more and more in uh preodern (01:33:48) right in certain respects and I think (01:33:51) this is a kind of this is kind of it. (01:33:54) Modernity says leave the old ways (01:33:56) behind. Now we're on to something new. (01:34:00) But sometimes the old ways are good. But (01:34:04) we say in my house all the time, old (01:34:05) ways are best. And and the old ways of (01:34:08) like get the hell out of the house and (01:34:10) everybody did that, therefore all the (01:34:12) kids are there and it's fine. Right. (01:34:14) Right. Is better. And and so I think in (01:34:18) these older, more (01:34:21) homogeneous, maybe more in a in a kind (01:34:24) of small culturally conservative or (01:34:27) conserving of their ways societies, (01:34:30) right? They they've managed to have (01:34:33) iPhones and have cars and have wealth, (01:34:35) right? And still keep these things that (01:34:38) turned out maybe even accidentally to be (01:34:40) essential. (01:34:42) It's a it's a I'm I'm making that up on (01:34:44) the fly a little bit. I don't know. I (01:34:45) don't know. I mean, we were already a, (01:34:47) you know, a melting pot culture of (01:34:48) people from all over the world in the (01:34:51) 50s, 60s,7s when we were sending the (01:34:53) kids outside to play. And by the 70s, (01:34:55) they weren't giant families either. So, (01:34:57) I don't see where being modern and at (01:35:01) the forefront of things automatically (01:35:03) means more supervision and more (01:35:07) catastrophizing. I don't I I think it (01:35:09) might have something to do with with (01:35:11) something else, which is (01:35:13) optimizing, which is when we're with our (01:35:16) kids and taking them to classes and (01:35:20) activities and they're wearing the (01:35:22) uniforms and they're being coached by (01:35:25) somebody who is considered pretty good (01:35:27) at what they do and they're stratified (01:35:30) by levels. You know, you're in the A (01:35:32) group at the sevens and maybe you'll get (01:35:33) to travel soccer. Maybe all that has to (01:35:37) do with not safety, but like let's make (01:35:39) sure that kids don't waste any single (01:35:41) second of their time because we can. We (01:35:43) have experts who can teach them more (01:35:45) about music and more about soccer and (01:35:47) more about help them with their (01:35:49) homework. Yeah. And we are in a (01:35:51) competitive culture and maybe (01:35:54) increasingly competitive. Maybe (01:35:55) everybody's afraid that their their kids (01:35:57) aren't going to make it to the to a (01:35:58) brandame college. Don't want to miss (01:36:00) don't want to miss your test. Yeah. (01:36:02) Don't I mean we could make fun of that (01:36:04) but you do want your kids to to have a (01:36:06) way to make a living and succeed even if (01:36:08) you know they don't have to go to (01:36:09) Princeton to make that living. I keep (01:36:11) bragging on Princeton. Um justifiable. (01:36:14) Yeah. Maybe it's not. I have nothing (01:36:16) against Oh, no. It's justifiable. Okay. (01:36:19) and Colia and Penn and Harvard and all (01:36:21) the, you know, in any event, the point (01:36:24) is that rather than having kids waste (01:36:27) time, we think that we can um put them (01:36:30) in something that's better and more um (01:36:34) that's just going to get them further, (01:36:36) right? And and and we think it's going (01:36:38) to enhance their lives. Oh, they're (01:36:39) going to have all these lessons, so (01:36:41) they'll be more interested in art and (01:36:43) soccer or whatever. So, it's it's it (01:36:45) could be the money plus the optimization (01:36:47) plus the worry that if we're not (01:36:49) optimizing them, everybody else it's (01:36:51) like everybody gets SAT prep now. Um, so (01:36:55) some game mentality, right? So, it could (01:36:57) be that. I mean, it could be like, (01:36:58) doesn't Denmark have like just zillions (01:37:01) of gallons of oil, right? So, they're (01:37:03) going to be okay. Norway. Norway (01:37:04) definitely. Oh, maybe it's Norway. Okay. (01:37:06) Denmark might have some oil, though. Um, (01:37:08) I know Norway has a lot. (01:37:11) What kills me is the idea that that kids (01:37:13) are wasting their time if they're not in (01:37:16) some organized activity or that they're (01:37:18) in danger. They're in danger of real (01:37:19) danger that somebody's going to kidnap (01:37:21) them or they're in danger of falling (01:37:23) behind. And so therefore, we have to put (01:37:25) them in constant adult-run activities. (01:37:28) And the inability of this culture to see (01:37:31) that when kids are just noodling around (01:37:34) or arguing or doing things that are (01:37:37) silly just because they're fun, that is (01:37:39) learning. Nobody sees learning unless (01:37:41) it's with a capital L and a trademark (01:37:43) and somebody is guaranteeing that your (01:37:44) kid is going to get ahead because (01:37:46) they're getting a lesson. So maybe it (01:37:49) has to do with the fact that we live in (01:37:50) a wealthy country that has made (01:37:52) everything except free time expensive (01:37:55) and therefore it seems more important (01:37:57) and more valuable. I think that's a (01:37:59) pretty good hypothesis. I think that (01:38:01) there's also there's something that is (01:38:04) happening now that had that cuts in a (01:38:07) lot of directions. Some of them are not (01:38:09) great. Some of them in this case I think (01:38:10) could be good. And that is the collapse (01:38:13) in trust in all of our experts. (01:38:16) Oh, so you know we wait all of our (01:38:20) experts except us except except I don't (01:38:23) know what I'm an expert in besides like (01:38:25) making videos but uh good you know um (01:38:30) COVID higher ed there's a whole bunch of (01:38:33) things. It's a it's an empirical fact or (01:38:36) it's a survey sentiment fact that trust (01:38:40) in our institutions wait empirical fact (01:38:42) is the same as a survey it's not it's (01:38:44) not well empirical as in broad-based (01:38:46) surveys suggest point to a collapse in (01:38:49) trust in education higher ed (01:38:52) institutional science government (01:38:54) basically all the stuff all the people (01:38:55) that are supposed to be the authority (01:38:58) figures we look up to um I think you (01:39:01) know love it or hate it the election of (01:39:03) Donald Trump in a lot of ways is like (01:39:05) giving a big middle finger to the expert (01:39:07) managerial class in this country. (01:39:10) There's a there's a downside to that (01:39:13) because there is some expertise that is (01:39:16) good. I want a neurosurgeon who's an (01:39:19) expert to work on my brain. I want my (01:39:23) Toyota dealer's mechanic to to have (01:39:25) worked on a lot of Toyotas and know how (01:39:26) to fix it and not screw me over or break (01:39:29) it. So expertise isn't inherently bad, (01:39:35) but the culture of trusting experts (01:39:38) seems like it's gotten a lot (01:39:40) of deserved dings. And you know, do you (01:39:44) think that this could actually help us (01:39:46) on this front? My god, that's a really (01:39:49) hard thing to even think (01:39:52) about expert culture. Oh. Oh, I my the (01:39:56) current Dr. Spock book. I'm gonna Wait, (01:39:59) the current Dr. Spock books are written (01:40:00) by my friend from college. Maybe they're (01:40:02) good. I'm sure they're good. Right. (01:40:03) Right. But you know what? Shout out to (01:40:05) Robert Needleman. You called out the, (01:40:07) you know, that there's this trust the (01:40:08) experts, appeal to authority culture. I (01:40:11) do think some of that's declining. Yeah. (01:40:13) There's a little more scrainess. I think (01:40:15) that's true. But I think when parents (01:40:17) are thinking about the experts, they're (01:40:19) generally not thinking about this giant (01:40:21) expert somewhere that we don't even (01:40:23) know. I think they're thinking like, you (01:40:25) know, my kid's swim coach says it'd be (01:40:27) better if he does it five days a week (01:40:29) than three days a week, so maybe I have (01:40:30) to do it. I mean, there's a lot of (01:40:32) individualized (01:40:34) um suggestions for all of our kids. You (01:40:37) know, the teacher says he needs speech (01:40:39) therapy or kuman and and we go ahead (01:40:41) with that. He might be dyslexic or he (01:40:43) has auditory processing disorders. My (01:40:45) kids have been through all of that. So, (01:40:46) I I get it. I you know, you listen. I (01:40:49) mean, my one kid had speech therapy for (01:40:50) years and years and years. So, um, and (01:40:53) and how would you not? I mean, the thing (01:40:55) is that there's a lot more to be expert (01:40:58) about. Like, I don't know about auditory (01:41:00) processing and I don't know if the dip (01:41:01) thongs are being, you know, done the (01:41:04) tongue at the front of the mouth or the (01:41:05) back of the mouth. And so, if somebody (01:41:07) knows about that and they say that they (01:41:08) have a better solution for your kid, (01:41:10) who's not going to want that? I think um (01:41:13) it seems like a a decent rule of thumb (01:41:16) is the narrower the subject (01:41:20) the with the clearer the cause and (01:41:23) effect that you can demonstrate the more (01:41:25) likely that expert is not a complete (01:41:27) crackpot and the and the wider the like (01:41:31) the world is going to end tomorrow those (01:41:32) those are the crackpots. I think you're (01:41:34) right. Well, but I mean there's a lot of (01:41:35) crack pottery out there. There's a lot (01:41:37) of claims especially in health pottery. (01:41:42) You know, so much of what uh we've (01:41:45) talked about and what I think can feel (01:41:48) like some as just like plain old common (01:41:51) sense from not that long ago. I am. Oh (01:41:52) my god. I'm like the Department of (01:41:54) Homelandity. That's me, right? Um as (01:41:58) people always say like, "Wow, you make a (01:41:59) lot of sense." I'm like, "Because I'm (01:42:00) sensible. That's like it. That's my (01:42:02) stock and trade. I make sense, right? I (01:42:06) don't have anything better than that, (01:42:07) right?" You know? Um, are you optimistic (01:42:11) that we might be heading in a better (01:42:16) direction on this in our culture in this (01:42:17) country or or do you feel like this is a (01:42:20) a constant war of attrition of psychosis (01:42:23) and safety? (01:42:25) Those are my choices. Yeah, that's it. (01:42:27) Okay. Going better. Okay. I mean, it (01:42:29) could be getting worse. So, I'm at least (01:42:30) giving you better running. All right. (01:42:32) So, I'll tell you what's worse and then (01:42:33) I'll tell you what's better. Okay. Worse (01:42:35) is that with (01:42:37) phones there's very little opportunity (01:42:40) for parents and children to separate. (01:42:42) And the easiest example I can give of (01:42:45) this is that um there was once an (01:42:47) article I read about a mom who loved her (01:42:48) childhood. She would go to the park, not (01:42:50) the park, she'd go to the stream and she (01:42:52) wanted to give that (01:42:55) same sense of wonder and excitement and (01:42:58) interest to her own child. So she wanted (01:43:00) her own child to be able to go to the (01:43:01) stream and she said and thank God now I (01:43:03) gave her a phone. so she can and she (01:43:05) said, and here's why it was so good. One (01:43:07) time my daughter was going to this (01:43:09) vaunted stream and on her bike and the (01:43:12) bike chain fell off and that way she (01:43:14) could call my husband and he came over (01:43:16) and fixed it. So I feel reassured that (01:43:19) my kid can have my childhood. And I'm (01:43:21) thinking that is the opposite of your (01:43:23) childhood cuz first of all you were (01:43:25) alone. Secondly, you knew that your (01:43:27) parents trusted you to be alone. (01:43:28) Thirdly, if your bike chain fell off, (01:43:30) you would have to figure it out. you (01:43:31) would either, you know, carry the bike (01:43:34) home or hide it in the bushes and (01:43:35) hitchhike or figure out how to put the (01:43:37) bike chain back on. Something, frankly, (01:43:39) I don't know how to do. But what you had (01:43:42) in your childhood was a chance to (01:43:46) really become a human, right? Not just (01:43:50) summon the concierge to come and and (01:43:52) help you. And so that disturbs me (01:43:55) because without the parent seeing that (01:43:58) the kid was fine without you even though (01:44:00) her bike chain fell off. And without the (01:44:02) kids seeing I'm fine without my parent (01:44:04) even though my bike chain fell off. (01:44:06) There's no chance for the parent to (01:44:07) develop this trust this this win like I (01:44:10) trust you. You can handle things because (01:44:12) there's never a chance. This is I I had (01:44:14) this thought earlier in our conversation (01:44:16) and I'm glad you came came to this story (01:44:18) because there's something there's an (01:44:19) invisible force in this. It's something (01:44:23) like what in the insurance business is (01:44:25) called moral hazard, which is (01:44:29) that even if I don't act on it. Oh yeah. (01:44:33) The fact that it's there changes my (01:44:37) incentives and my behavior in ways that (01:44:39) are subtle and profound. I agree. And (01:44:41) that is really hard. And look, I'm (01:44:44) guilty of it, too. Like my son's had a (01:44:46) phone and and I mean I can literally (01:44:48) pull up find my right now and see his (01:44:50) head in there in the Vatican, right? And (01:44:53) um and that why is he in the back? (01:44:57) Why wouldn't you be in the but um the (01:45:00) that is the knowledge of that it is a (01:45:04) it's an invisible safety net. I'm so (01:45:06) glad you said this. Yes. And I don't (01:45:08) think we can (01:45:10) underestimate the way favorite topic (01:45:13) changes. Yes. How you act and the things (01:45:17) you think you should do or that you (01:45:20) might need to do. Uh there's one other (01:45:23) example and then I'll I'll let you jump (01:45:24) in because I know you're bouncing off (01:45:26) the walls to jump in. And that is I (01:45:28) think it's I think the I think the (01:45:31) econ idea is called the shelling effect. (01:45:34) And it's basically that it's somewhat (01:45:37) the inverse, but it plays out the same. (01:45:41) Uh helmets cause more injury. Yeah. So (01:45:45) in football, in American football, um (01:45:49) you have higher incidence of concussions (01:45:51) than in rugby in in Britain. Oh, that's (01:45:54) interesting. And that is because when (01:45:55) you have the helmet on, you hit harder. (01:45:59) Wow. UFC has less fatal injury than (01:46:03) boxing because getting punched with a (01:46:05) bare fist, you don't get that many hits. (01:46:08) But if you're Mike Tyson with those soft (01:46:10) squishy ones, you're getting pumped. I (01:46:13) never thought of them as being soft and (01:46:14) squishy. Interesting. Well, relative to (01:46:16) relative that's why they wear it. Oh, (01:46:18) that's so interesting. Okay. And so it's (01:46:20) sort of the inverse, but it has the same (01:46:22) thing. These things that are meant to be (01:46:24) protective change what we do. It's not (01:46:27) the same action. It's not the same (01:46:29) activity anymore. (01:46:32) Yeah. Hadn't thought about boxing one (01:46:34) iota. Um, I do think that we keep not (01:46:38) thinking about what it means to grow up (01:46:40) under constant supervision or (01:46:43) surveillance. And it is huge. And when (01:46:45) I, this is a totally non-winning (01:46:48) argument for me because there's nobody, (01:46:50) including you, apparently, who's going (01:46:51) to turn off, you know, find my iPhone (01:46:54) or, you know, you know, dump life 360 (01:46:56) because they think, oh, I really want (01:46:58) more independence for my kid. So, it's (01:47:00) people love these apps. But when parents (01:47:04) say it's okay because I barely ever look (01:47:06) at it, it's like but the fact that you (01:47:08) could at any point is what makes a (01:47:10) difference. And I've talked to some kids (01:47:13) about this and I actually want to talk (01:47:14) to more. So it's lenor letgrow.org if (01:47:17) you're like under 18 and above 13 and (01:47:20) want to talk to me about being tracked. (01:47:23) um that one of the frustrating things (01:47:26) about being tracked is first of all that (01:47:29) um that your parents could watch you at (01:47:30) any time, but also that you don't get to (01:47:32) prove that you are becoming a (01:47:35) responsible young adult. And one kid (01:47:37) said like if I don't go to a party, it's (01:47:40) because I said I wouldn't go to a party, (01:47:42) but now my parents can think I didn't go (01:47:44) to the party because of course they (01:47:45) could track me and they would know if I (01:47:47) was at the party. So how do you ever (01:47:48) prove that you are trustworthy? And we (01:47:51) were talking before about the wind (01:47:52) beneath our wings. And somebody who (01:47:53) believes in you is somebody who trusts (01:47:55) you. And to know that it's trust but (01:47:58) verify at all times in real time, right? (01:48:00) And we know that when Reagan said that (01:48:01) about the Soviet Union, it wasn't (01:48:03) because he trusted them, right? It's (01:48:05) because he wanted to verify. And so (01:48:07) there's something really different about (01:48:09) growing up knowing that you really have (01:48:12) no privacy or (01:48:14) freedom. But I realized that most people (01:48:17) feel like the way they can let their (01:48:19) kids do anything like the way the mom (01:48:21) let the kid go to the to the stream was (01:48:23) because the kid was carrying a phone. (01:48:25) And it has become like a you know just a (01:48:28) a truth that is known by all that if (01:48:31) you're carrying a phone somehow you're (01:48:32) safe. And last year I was talking to a (01:48:34) kid who was about to get his first phone (01:48:37) um or a watch and it was because he was (01:48:40) going off to middle school and I said (01:48:41) and he said that my mom said to talk to (01:48:43) you and ask which watch to get. I said, (01:48:45) 'Well, why do you think you need one?' (01:48:47) And he said, 'Well, you know what? What (01:48:48) if I have to get in touch with my mom? I (01:48:50) said, you know, what what if you did, (01:48:52) you know? And he said, 'Well, you know, (01:48:54) I need it just for safety. I was like, (01:48:55) what do you mean? She says, like, what (01:48:57) if I'm like lying in the street (01:48:59) bleeding? And I'm like, it's too late (01:49:02) for the watch, you know? I mean, there's (01:49:05) really it's it's just become this it's (01:49:08) talismanic. And yet it changes the (01:49:11) relationship between you and your (01:49:12) parents and you and the world because (01:49:14) now instead of seeing the world as a (01:49:16) place that you can go and be okay in, (01:49:18) it's a place you can go and be okay in (01:49:19) if somebody is watching over you all the (01:49:22) time. And then I saw him and and he's (01:49:24) wearing it's the brave new world. Well, (01:49:26) it's it's but it's um anyways it's it's (01:49:29) something disturbing to me, but it is (01:49:31) part of the world. And I am grateful (01:49:34) when parents do let their kids do more. (01:49:36) And if this if the watch is the only way (01:49:37) they're going to get to do it, I in a (01:49:40) way that's better than nothing. It (01:49:41) probably is better than nothing. But (01:49:42) here's what I wanted to say that gives (01:49:44) me hope. Please. So, Parents Magazine (01:49:47) has been my bet noir since I let my kid (01:49:51) ride the subway. You know, is this (01:49:53) crazy? And and they're always coming up (01:49:54) with when I was talking about the expert (01:49:56) culture. Really, what I wanted to do is (01:49:57) just show you a stack of parents (01:49:58) magazines. It's like, is your laundry (01:50:00) hamper dangerous? How do you how could (01:50:01) you spend a day in this? They once had a (01:50:03) big five-page article, how to spend a (01:50:05) fun day outside in the park. It's like (01:50:08) I wonder if you can count the number of (01:50:10) heterosexual dads who've read that on (01:50:12) more than one hand. Right. Right. Right. (01:50:15) Right. Right. Right. It's not parents. (01:50:18) Like which parent are we talking about? (01:50:20) Yeah. Well, we know which parent we're (01:50:21) talking. I think I think in um in the (01:50:23) Simpsons they had like worried Mother (01:50:24) magazine. She was buying a copy of (01:50:26) Worried Mother Magazine. Yeah. This is (01:50:28) like the Yeah, that's like the the uh (01:50:30) what it would be called if it was (01:50:31) honest. Right. Right. Right. But so I (01:50:33) have to say so in the wake of this (01:50:34) Britney Patterson story, they wrote a (01:50:37) story and they quoted me and I was (01:50:38) saying what I always say, but they (01:50:39) quoted other people saying what I always (01:50:42) say and that was very exciting because (01:50:44) it was like this is crazy. Children need (01:50:45) independence. When we thwart their (01:50:47) independence, it's almost like thwarting (01:50:48) their child development. And people have (01:50:50) to see children have to see that we (01:50:51) trust in them and that if something goes (01:50:53) wrong that's okay and that it's all (01:50:54) right to be nervous and and you can do (01:50:56) it. And it was like, hey, (01:51:00) you're making progress. I'd say 16 years (01:51:03) and I got an article in the parents (01:51:05) magazine that sounded like me. Okay. You (01:51:08) know, high five, right? You've uh you've (01:51:11) conquered the territory. That's it. (01:51:12) Right. My work here is done. Right. So, (01:51:15) Lenor, this has been a blast. I ask this (01:51:18) of every guest and um what did I eat? (01:51:21) What book would I read? what uh we like (01:51:23) this show is called Dad Saves America (01:51:25) because I believe that that's a role we (01:51:27) as men can play that is really important (01:51:29) that needs to be celebrated and that and (01:51:33) is where our internal locus of control (01:51:35) gets to go to work to make a difference (01:51:37) in our families, our communities and our (01:51:39) country. How do you think about your (01:51:41) role not just as a mom but as a dad? As (01:51:44) the as a dad as the world's worst mom. (01:51:47) Um how do you think about your role in (01:51:49) the American story? Oh my god. I can't (01:51:52) say that. I would sound like a jerk. Um, (01:51:54) let's just say parents, I ask everyone. (01:51:56) You have to answer. It's okay. My role (01:51:59) in American history, how I've changed (01:52:01) the world. Me, as grandio, be as (01:52:03) grandiose or as small as you'd like. Um, (01:52:07) I'd say that what's cool is that people (01:52:11) are talking about the same things that (01:52:13) obsess me. And once we start, well, I (01:52:16) don't even believe that just thinking (01:52:17) about them. Let me say this. We have a (01:52:20) thousand schools now that are doing the (01:52:22) let grow experience and that's just from (01:52:23) this year. So all these kids are getting (01:52:27) this and all these parents are getting (01:52:29) this chance to do something on their own (01:52:31) and realize that's fantastic. I love the (01:52:33) world. I love my parents who trust me (01:52:35) out in there. That's a million kids. So (01:52:38) I'd say a million for a start. (01:52:43) Lenor Scanazy, thanks for being on Dad (01:52:45) Saves America again. That's right. Thank (01:52:47) you again.