Why Modern Parenting Is Creating a Mental Health Crisis (ft. Erica Komisar) (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) Children are born neurologically [music] (00:00:02) and emotionally fragile. They are born (00:00:05) not resilient and they're born feeling (00:00:07) very frightened and unsafe. (00:00:09) >> We decided to teach women that you will (00:00:11) be more powerful in a [music] career (00:00:13) with people who don't care about you (00:00:15) than you will by shaping the entire (00:00:17) destiny of the human race. (00:00:18) >> Who will be sitting by your bed when you (00:00:20) die? Will it be your boss or your (00:00:23) co-workers? or is it going to be [music] (00:00:25) the people that you took time away from (00:00:28) your work to be with to love? (00:00:31) >> I think motherhood is one of the most (00:00:32) important [music] jobs in the entire (00:00:33) world. (00:00:48) >> [music] (00:00:53) >> Erica, it is wonderful to talk to you. (00:00:55) You are one of the few people I know who (00:00:57) is as serious about making sure your (00:01:00) children have somebody in the home as I (00:01:02) am. Right. You talk extensively about (00:01:05) how important it is to have a mother (00:01:07) with those children. Just for context, (00:01:09) I've been married 17 years. My wife and (00:01:11) I right now are expecting baby number (00:01:13) six. Uh she stays at home and works (00:01:15) harder than I do because I'm only out in (00:01:17) the world working and she has five young (00:01:19) babies and one on the way to take care (00:01:21) of. I think motherhood is one of the (00:01:23) most important jobs in the entire world (00:01:24) and I don't think that we give it any (00:01:26) credit at all. Can you please talk to (00:01:28) our audience here today? A lot of them (00:01:30) are women themselves or they'd like to (00:01:32) be and I know you talk a lot about this (00:01:34) the stigma that motherhood faces today. (00:01:36) Can you open up and tell us what people (00:01:38) are facing with that? (00:01:41) Well, I mean, I think somewhere along (00:01:43) the way, we lost the thread that life (00:01:46) has seasons to it. That um there are (00:01:49) many seasons to life, particularly for (00:01:51) women, maybe more seasons to life than (00:01:54) for men. Um because we have a short (00:01:57) window in which we can bear children. (00:02:00) And so, um, the idea is not that women (00:02:04) can't work and have brilliant careers (00:02:06) outside the home, but that in the years (00:02:09) that if you choose to have children, (00:02:10) because again, you don't have to choose (00:02:12) to have children to have a meaningful (00:02:14) life, but if you do choose to have (00:02:16) children, um, then they don't they need (00:02:19) to be cared for. And so, the concept is (00:02:21) that the first three years from 0 to (00:02:23) three, as you know, and I'm sure you've (00:02:26) talked to your audience about is a (00:02:27) critical period of brain development. (00:02:30) And basically children are born (00:02:32) neurologically and emotionally fragile. (00:02:35) Um they are born not resilient. (00:02:38) Um it and they're born feeling very (00:02:40) frightened and unsafe. And so it's only (00:02:43) by being there physically and (00:02:45) emotionally and providing them with uh (00:02:48) soothing them from moment to moment when (00:02:50) they're in distress and providing them (00:02:51) with a sense of safety in a world that (00:02:53) feels very unsafe to them. that after (00:02:56) three years of consistently providing (00:02:58) them with that comfort and and that (00:03:01) feeling of safety, can they internalize (00:03:03) that feeling of safety and go out into (00:03:05) the world and carry it with them? And (00:03:08) you know, again, we've lost the thread (00:03:10) because at some point we told women that (00:03:12) mothering, well, first of all, that life (00:03:14) isn't full of seasons, that it's just (00:03:16) one linear season. uh you know you grow (00:03:20) up, you go to school, you get a good (00:03:22) job, you make lots of money and children (00:03:25) are um an accessory to your life. They (00:03:29) are a sideline (00:03:31) um not the important part and and so and (00:03:35) that careers and careerism uh and (00:03:38) materialism was more important. And so (00:03:40) therefore women uh started to believe (00:03:43) it. they started to believe that work (00:03:45) outside the home in those critical years (00:03:47) when your children need you was not (00:03:50) valuable work. Um and so once you do (00:03:53) that to society, to women, to men too (00:03:56) because the men have to support their (00:03:58) women, once you tell young men that that (00:04:01) nurturing is not important work and that (00:04:03) anybody can do it and it's funible and (00:04:06) then you destroy the um the instinctual (00:04:10) bonds between parents and their (00:04:12) children. Um and so yeah, we lost the (00:04:15) thread that that mothering is meaningful (00:04:18) work to be admired, to be lifted up, to (00:04:22) be um to be encouraged and supported by (00:04:26) families, by friends, by society at (00:04:29) large. (00:04:31) >> I agree with that. I would even go so (00:04:32) far as to say that the job of the (00:04:35) masculine itself actually is to provide (00:04:37) a safe shelter for the mothering to take (00:04:39) place. I think the the mothering aspect (00:04:42) is the most important and sacred role (00:04:44) that a person probably can have because (00:04:46) you are crafting the nervous systems of (00:04:48) the next generation. You're growing (00:04:50) their capabilities. You're enhancing (00:04:52) their their neural pathways so that they (00:04:54) will even be able to work with other (00:04:55) human beings. Uh there's there's an old (00:04:58) saying, the hand that rocks the cradle (00:04:59) rules the world. And somewhere we along (00:05:02) the way we we decided to teach women (00:05:04) that you will be more powerful in a (00:05:06) career with people who don't care about (00:05:08) you than you will by shaping the entire (00:05:11) destiny of the human race. And I think (00:05:13) that that is a story that we definitely (00:05:15) need to bring back. (00:05:17) There's another aspect there though that (00:05:19) you touched on very importantly which is (00:05:21) the the job of the man to take care of (00:05:23) and provide and help. One thing that I (00:05:26) think I've seen, I'd love to get your (00:05:27) take on this, is seemingly over the last (00:05:30) four or five generations, men (00:05:33) have not done their job, and this is not (00:05:35) to beat up on men. I think that we lost (00:05:37) a generation of men in World War I. The (00:05:39) lost generation lost them physically, (00:05:41) but also mentally, emotionally, (00:05:43) spiritually. They they they were (00:05:44) destroyed whether they came back or not. (00:05:46) World War II was another meat grinder (00:05:48) where we lost a lot of men. I think the (00:05:50) transmission of mission and purpose and (00:05:53) knowledge was also broken up pretty (00:05:55) badly during those times. And as we lost (00:05:58) so many men and they began checking out, (00:06:00) I think that women have, as they always (00:06:02) have and they're excellent at doing, (00:06:03) women adapted. Right? For the last four (00:06:06) generations, we see the the transmission (00:06:07) of a message that says don't don't rely (00:06:10) on men. For some reason, they are (00:06:12) letting us down. For some reason, they (00:06:13) are not here. They are dying sometimes (00:06:16) or they are checking out or they're (00:06:18) betraying us. don't trust them anymore. (00:06:20) So, you see a network of women teaching (00:06:22) the next generation to be fearful. I'm (00:06:24) wondering if that's one reason that (00:06:26) women today are so vulnerable to the (00:06:28) message that motherhood is bad. Not not (00:06:30) just because they believe it naively, (00:06:32) but but maybe part of them wants to (00:06:34) believe it so that they don't step into (00:06:36) a role of ultimate vulnerability like (00:06:38) that. What do you think? (00:06:39) >> Well, it's it's true. We told um we told (00:06:43) women not to depend on men and we told (00:06:47) men um that we didn't need them and we (00:06:51) all need to be needed. And so we do need (00:06:54) them when we raise young children. Um we (00:06:57) need them because if we're going to take (00:07:00) that very precious time as a primary (00:07:03) attachment figure, we need to be loved (00:07:05) and supported and admired and held up. (00:07:09) uh but supported and so we do need men (00:07:12) as women and so this this kind of (00:07:15) message of I don't know self-sufficiency (00:07:18) and independence and self-determination (00:07:21) for women although it's an important (00:07:24) message for women to know that they too (00:07:27) could have some of the things that men (00:07:29) had. Um, but what actually it's it's (00:07:32) interesting because I think there were (00:07:34) many important messages in the feminist (00:07:36) movement, but I think what it really did (00:07:38) is it said men are better than women and (00:07:42) women should be more like men. (00:07:45) Um, in fact, one would say that that (00:07:49) that was the wrong message. Um, the (00:07:51) message is that women are valuable in (00:07:54) their own unique way and their work is (00:07:56) as valuable as men's work. and should (00:08:00) be, you know, again because women (00:08:03) weren't remunerated with money. Uh it it (00:08:06) today money is so important. It's become (00:08:08) the most important kind of transactional (00:08:12) thing. And so, you know, if you don't (00:08:14) make money, then you're not important. (00:08:16) Uh then you're not valuable to society, (00:08:19) right? So, it it did have to do with (00:08:22) women basically not wanting to depend on (00:08:25) on men. And you know, again, I I think I (00:08:30) do deal with women who (00:08:32) have been dependent and have gone (00:08:35) through disappointing relationships and (00:08:37) divorces, and they'll come to me, too. (00:08:39) And and I think there's there is a lot (00:08:41) to be learned about um women needing (00:08:45) security. That also means financial (00:08:47) security. And so, you know, maybe what (00:08:50) this is driving us towards eventually is (00:08:52) that women do need some kind of (00:08:54) financial security in marriages that is (00:08:58) separate than their husbands. Um, I've (00:09:00) always said that if we could, you know, (00:09:02) have a system where women are given (00:09:05) their own separate savings accounts, you (00:09:08) know, uh, that when their husbands earn (00:09:10) money, there's something of their own (00:09:11) that makes them feel secure. But but (00:09:14) yeah, we gave we we gave the wrong (00:09:16) messaging to both women and men. One (00:09:18) that um that we didn't need each other, (00:09:21) that women could just do fine on their (00:09:23) own, that they didn't need men. And (00:09:25) that's that's a message that destroys (00:09:27) relationships. It destroyed marital (00:09:29) relationships. And it also diminished (00:09:31) men's role because you're right, men's (00:09:33) role was to protect and defend and (00:09:36) provide. Um, and so when that was taken (00:09:39) away from them, a lot of men became (00:09:41) confused and disoriented and even (00:09:43) depressed. (00:09:45) >> I agree with that. Actually, I agree (00:09:47) with everything you just said to be (00:09:48) honest with you. Uh, in particular, in (00:09:51) very particular, I think that this (00:09:53) aspect of giving a woman financial (00:09:56) security apart from her husband is (00:09:58) incredibly important. That's something I (00:09:59) have a lot of clients come to me and a (00:10:01) lot of them are wellto-d do and they're (00:10:03) considering getting married and the the (00:10:06) men often in their 30s or so, sometimes (00:10:09) in their early 40s will say, you know, (00:10:11) my uh my fiance was talking to me and (00:10:13) she's very nervous about letting go of (00:10:14) her job or or selling her business or (00:10:16) whatever it is and becoming a mom and a (00:10:19) stay-at-home mom and I'm I don't know (00:10:20) how to handle this, Adam. She see it (00:10:22) seems like she's going for a money grab (00:10:24) because she's asking me how to build (00:10:26) financial security that she can rely on (00:10:28) even if our relationship goes ugly. And (00:10:30) I tell them two things. I say, "Well, (00:10:32) you should have a prenuptual agreement (00:10:33) that protects the woman." Number one, we (00:10:36) need a marriage contract that is (00:10:37) protecting of both sides. Do it when the (00:10:39) sun is shining so that when it's raining (00:10:41) and ugly, you don't have to figure out (00:10:42) an agreement then between your angry (00:10:44) lawyers. And number two, I think that (00:10:47) the practice of giving women jewelry (00:10:49) every year on your anniversary or for (00:10:51) every special event, that is wearable (00:10:52) money. And I think that we've we've (00:10:54) drifted away from that as well. But I (00:10:56) remember my grandmother uh on my (00:10:58) father's side, she would proudly open (00:11:00) her jewelry box and show us the jewelry (00:11:03) that she had and tell us which (00:11:04) anniversary it was for that her husband (00:11:06) had purchased it for. And then she was (00:11:07) very proud, I remember this, she was (00:11:09) very proud to say, "I never had to spend (00:11:12) any of this." And that was so important (00:11:14) because he had provided for her (00:11:16) financially so that even after his (00:11:17) death, she had money essentially that (00:11:21) she never had to dip into because he (00:11:23) provided for her on dual areas. That's (00:11:25) why she had trusted him so much. That (00:11:27) that really resonated with me and I (00:11:28) tried that practice with my wife today (00:11:30) to make sure that god forbid if (00:11:32) something happened to me tomorrow, she'd (00:11:33) be financially sound. But by the same (00:11:35) token, I don't want her to just feel (00:11:37) like she has to keep me happy or she (00:11:39) won't be safe. her happiness, her safety (00:11:42) should not be contingent on my happiness (00:11:44) or even the well-being of our marriage. (00:11:45) She should always be safe. That's part (00:11:47) of my job, I think, as well. Does that (00:11:49) does that practice does that set up sit (00:11:51) well with you? (00:11:52) >> So, I don't know if do you know what a (00:11:54) cuba is? It's the Jewish marital (00:11:56) contract. And so, (00:11:57) >> I know the concept, I know the name. (00:12:00) >> Jews have been using those contracts for (00:12:03) thousands of years. And, you know, the (00:12:06) old ones say kind of things that are (00:12:08) outdated now. um you know five pigs and (00:12:12) well not pigs because Jews didn't but (00:12:14) five goats and 12 sheep and you know and (00:12:16) and my do these are my daughter's sheep (00:12:19) these aren't your sheep and so she'll (00:12:21) bring them to the marriage but they (00:12:22) belong to my daughter you know (00:12:23) [laughter] sort of um so I think prenups (00:12:28) can be seen as um as threatening things (00:12:32) or they could just be seen as as you say (00:12:34) marital contracts um that that set up a (00:12:39) structure so women feel financially (00:12:42) secure because it may be that a lot of (00:12:44) what's happening too is that women feel (00:12:46) so insecure because 50% of marriages end (00:12:49) in divorce. Um you know I've written a (00:12:52) book about how to how to manage raising (00:12:56) uh healthy and resilient children even (00:12:59) if you're getting a divorce or you're (00:13:00) separated. (00:13:01) >> Very good book by the way. I recommend (00:13:02) everyone go read that book immediately (00:13:04) because it's groundbreaking (00:13:05) >> and it's coming out in in March. And the (00:13:08) thing is it's um it but the idea is that (00:13:12) um women do need to feel secure when (00:13:14) marriages end. They you know and (00:13:16) eventually many of them will end. Yeah. (00:13:18) >> Not all of them. And and uh women need (00:13:21) to feel financially secure if they're (00:13:23) going to take what they consider to be a (00:13:25) risk to stay home with their children (00:13:27) >> and sort of think of life in seasons. uh (00:13:30) where I can have a successful career and (00:13:33) maybe even put money away when I'm in my (00:13:36) early 20s and in my 20s I have a savings (00:13:39) and I put money away and then I take (00:13:40) some time off and I spend with my (00:13:43) children and I relax into being a mother (00:13:45) or I work less in a less demanding job (00:13:48) and my husband still puts money into my (00:13:50) pension um and I I have a pension for (00:13:55) being a mother and that will provide for (00:13:57) me should anything happen to you let's (00:13:59) Okay. So, yeah, I don't see any problem (00:14:02) with contracts between men and women. I (00:14:04) I don't think it um dromanticizes (00:14:08) anything. Um you know, I it's it's (00:14:11) interesting because marriage is is a (00:14:14) practical thing, too. There's a (00:14:16) practical part of it. Um, as you can see (00:14:18) from the young people today, I don't (00:14:20) know if you know, but the idea of going (00:14:21) out and buying a ring is no longer (00:14:24) something that men go out and do in a in (00:14:26) a private and secret way to surprise (00:14:29) their brides. The brides and the grooms (00:14:31) go out and buy rings together and (00:14:33) choose, you know, it's almost like (00:14:34) buying an asset together. So marriages (00:14:37) are practical, too. So I think what if (00:14:40) women felt more secure, I think there is (00:14:43) an aspect of financial security. If they (00:14:45) felt more secure, maybe they would make (00:14:47) and if their husbands supported them (00:14:50) emotionally and said, "It's okay to take (00:14:52) time off. I support you in this." I (00:14:55) think more women would stay home with (00:14:57) their children in those early years at (00:14:59) least. (00:14:59) >> What you just said, I think, would solve (00:15:01) the uh crisis, the the birth rate crisis (00:15:05) here in America, to be honest with you, (00:15:07) because we see that um among women who (00:15:09) don't have children, right? I hesitate (00:15:11) to use the phrase childless, right? (00:15:12) That's that's a label. But among women (00:15:14) who end up not having children someday, (00:15:16) the research shows that only 10% of them (00:15:19) chose not to. And 90% of them actually (00:15:21) wanted children, but it didn't happen. (00:15:23) And for the majority of those, it's (00:15:24) because they were spending time building (00:15:26) a career. And then they tried to get (00:15:27) involved with a man and it didn't go (00:15:29) well. And maybe she was anxiously (00:15:30) attached and and catered to an avoidant (00:15:32) man for too long. I get a lot of those (00:15:34) at year eight when they say, "Adam, (00:15:35) we've been dating for eight years. When (00:15:37) is a good time to bring up commitment?" (00:15:39) Right? Kind of things. It happens a lot. (00:15:41) Uh but they're they're taught women are (00:15:43) taught nowadays especially do not get (00:15:46) married in your 20s. Do not have (00:15:49) children in your early 30s. Wait till (00:15:51) your late 30s early 40s to even begin (00:15:53) thinking about romance almost today. (00:15:55) Begin building much much much later. And (00:15:58) then the odds are very I don't want to (00:16:00) say slim but the odds are not good of (00:16:02) finding a good successful partner that (00:16:05) fast to then build that structure (00:16:07) together because they're also taught (00:16:09) date for at least 2 3 4 years before you (00:16:11) even think about getting married because (00:16:13) only a fool would rush in so to speak (00:16:15) and then you're waiting for another 3 (00:16:16) four years to have kids. By the time (00:16:18) you're 45 that's when a lot of women (00:16:20) nowadays start. So I I think that if we (00:16:23) had a system where women felt fully safe (00:16:26) and I do believe it's the man's job to (00:16:28) provide all levels of safety for a (00:16:30) woman. That is our our very essence our (00:16:32) being. If we don't and we are not (00:16:34) operating as a man (00:16:36) if we could do that that would solve the (00:16:39) birth rate crisis. I think I think women (00:16:41) would joyfully come back to having (00:16:42) families because it seems like the (00:16:44) majority of women do want them and want (00:16:46) families and children. They just don't (00:16:48) know how to how to admit that they want (00:16:50) them. Maybe I think the stigma like you (00:16:51) said also drives them away from it a (00:16:53) little bit. (00:16:54) >> Well, there is also the issue I'll bring (00:16:56) this up. I'll give you another statistic (00:16:58) that 60% of women in America, 66% in the (00:17:02) UK, 60% in America would stay home with (00:17:06) their children in the early years if (00:17:08) they had the financial and emotional (00:17:11) support to do so. So, what does that (00:17:14) mean? I mean, we live in a country that (00:17:16) does not provide paid leave when every (00:17:19) other country in the world provides some (00:17:21) kind of national paid leave. State by (00:17:24) state, there's a little bit of paid (00:17:26) leave, like New York is starting to give (00:17:28) some some paid leave. But the only thing (00:17:29) that we have in America is something (00:17:31) called family leave. So, family leave (00:17:33) means it's unpaid leave. But the in (00:17:36) other words, employers are forced to (00:17:37) hold your job for three months. That's (00:17:40) not paid leave. And for a family who's (00:17:42) struggling paycheck to paycheck, they (00:17:44) don't have the same choices as other (00:17:46) families who are not struggling. And you (00:17:48) know, I know there's this whole issue of (00:17:50) affordability now in America, but the (00:17:52) truth is that most people are living, (00:17:54) there are statistics to show most people (00:17:56) in America are living paycheck to (00:17:58) paycheck and depending on two incomes. (00:18:00) So somewhere along the way, we also got (00:18:02) lost. Um I had someone from uh one of (00:18:06) the think tanks say to me um that you (00:18:10) know because I was talking to him about (00:18:11) this and he said you know the problem (00:18:13) also is that our expectations of (00:18:15) material of a material life have changed (00:18:18) in the last 50 years. So you know it (00:18:21) used to be that people expected couples (00:18:24) expected to have a small house or a (00:18:26) small apartment. They were lucky if they (00:18:28) had one car and and the idea was um (00:18:32) small was good and and you could have (00:18:35) small and manageable and today he said a (00:18:40) 1500 square foot house is now a 3,000 (00:18:42) square foot house. Um a onecar family is (00:18:46) now a twocar a threecar family. Um even (00:18:49) middle class families. So the idea that (00:18:52) um you know new sneakers every 3 months (00:18:56) and new clothes every season for your (00:18:58) children, going to Target, going to (00:18:59) Walmart, you know this idea of um we (00:19:02) really have changed our expectations too (00:19:05) about materialism. But there really are (00:19:08) people um who are living paycheck to (00:19:11) paycheck and without that paid leave, (00:19:13) those mothers are not going to have the (00:19:15) option to stay home. Um so you know I I (00:19:18) I love this country but I also (00:19:21) understand that we are in this way the (00:19:23) most univilized country in the world. (00:19:26) >> I remember um so I I have five children (00:19:28) currently six is on the way. And when I (00:19:30) first started having children with my (00:19:32) wife I was working at a uh at a (00:19:35) different job very different job than (00:19:36) I'm doing today. And there was no (00:19:39) paternity leave. It it was a fight even (00:19:41) to get FMLA family leave even for a (00:19:43) week. They could barely even spare me (00:19:45) one week of unpaid time to just be with (00:19:48) my wife and child, to try to get her (00:19:49) settled in, to try to get her home from (00:19:51) the hospital, to learn how to change (00:19:53) diapers myself. One week unpaid. It hurt (00:19:56) our family financially so bad at the (00:19:58) time, even for me to have half of a (00:20:00) paycheck essentially come in. It was (00:20:02) devastating. It's it's just unfixable in (00:20:05) that regard. There's things to be done (00:20:08) certainly. Um, and I don't want to put (00:20:09) all the burden on men of just go make (00:20:11) more money. That's certainly not the (00:20:13) answer here. We have we have to overhaul (00:20:14) our whole culture if we are going to (00:20:16) support motherhood and fatherhood. Uh I (00:20:19) would love to talk with you then as a (00:20:20) father myself. We've talked in in good (00:20:22) ways here about mothers. I would love to (00:20:24) hear positive things about fathers as (00:20:26) well. You have some great material on (00:20:27) the role of fathers which I was (00:20:28) delighted by the way to see. When I went (00:20:30) through graduate school, I was a (00:20:32) licensed marriage and family therapist (00:20:33) for many years. When I went through (00:20:34) graduate school, I'll never forget (00:20:36) cracking open the family systems book (00:20:39) and opening it up to a gigantic chapter (00:20:42) on motherhood with multiple pieces (00:20:44) sprinkled throughout the book. It's the (00:20:46) most important thing in the world. And (00:20:48) then I looked and I said, "Well, where's (00:20:50) where's fathers?" And I had to go back (00:20:51) to the index because there was no (00:20:53) chapter on them. And they had one page (00:20:56) and I opened it up and it was twothirds (00:20:58) of a page about fathers somewhere back (00:21:01) in in in the systems generic systems (00:21:04) book talking about discipline and how to (00:21:07) not be absent from your children. That (00:21:09) was basically it. Fathers are maybe (00:21:11) going to be there. That's pretty much (00:21:12) it. And that was soul crushing to me. (00:21:15) And I I pointed it out to my teacher at (00:21:17) the time and they they just stared at me (00:21:19) blankly and said, "So mothers are more (00:21:22) important." And I said, 'But fathers, (00:21:23) surely fathers have something to do with (00:21:25) the process. And they said, 'Well, yeah, (00:21:27) you figure that as you go. That was it. (00:21:30) That was the answer. So, as a father (00:21:32) myself, I um I see my role as very (00:21:34) vital. And I I don't I don't think (00:21:37) mothers or fathers are more. I I think (00:21:39) that we're meant The reason a child has (00:21:41) both is because we're meant to link (00:21:43) together like that. What do you see as (00:21:45) the role of fatherhood in even those (00:21:48) first three years? because too many (00:21:50) fathers say I don't have a role in the (00:21:51) first three years. (00:21:53) >> So you know people after I wrote my (00:21:56) first book about mothering asked why (00:21:58) don't you write a book about fathering (00:22:00) and I said because I have lots of good (00:22:02) examples. I mean the reason I write (00:22:03) books is if there are no really (00:22:05) wonderful books that I can refer my (00:22:07) patients to. Um and Warren Ferrell wrote (00:22:11) a beautiful book about about fathers. (00:22:13) And there's a number of really good (00:22:15) books about men and the importance of (00:22:17) fathers. So I felt like you know there (00:22:20) had been it had been said but I'll say (00:22:21) it again which is fathers are um if we (00:22:25) want to talk about equality we could say (00:22:28) they are we are equal but different but (00:22:31) our value is both incredibly important (00:22:33) to children and raising children. Um and (00:22:37) that's a radical thing to say today (00:22:39) because there's so many women raising (00:22:41) children alone either inadvertently or (00:22:44) by choice. there's uh so many gay (00:22:47) parents raising children and to say that (00:22:49) you know fathers and mothers are both (00:22:53) very important to children. Um they (00:22:56) serve different functions. Um they are (00:22:58) different hormonally and in terms of (00:23:00) their nurturing behaviors related to (00:23:02) their hormones. So mothers because of so (00:23:05) much oxytocin if a mother is healthy (00:23:07) that she sort of um passes back and (00:23:10) forth between the baby. There's a lot of (00:23:13) what we call sensitive empathic (00:23:15) nurturing which is mothers are very (00:23:18) attuned to the distress of babies. Um (00:23:22) and fathers have a lot of something (00:23:24) called vasop prein neurotransmitter that (00:23:27) makes them very very much into (00:23:29) protective and aggressive behavior (00:23:31) towards children meaning their nurturing (00:23:33) behaviors are to protect their children. (00:23:36) So, you know, we are mammals and so (00:23:38) mammals who are males, they're going to (00:23:41) protect their the mothers and the (00:23:43) children from predators and and and from (00:23:46) harm. And so they're they're both (00:23:49) important functions. The other thing (00:23:50) that fathers are really important for is (00:23:53) in the separation process. So, with all (00:23:55) of these mothers that are attaching to (00:23:58) their babies and and raising children as (00:24:01) single mothers, we're finding a lot of (00:24:03) difficulty with those mothers separating (00:24:05) because the fathers were the ones who (00:24:07) lured the baby away from the mother at (00:24:09) the at the appropriate time and said, (00:24:11) you know, come into the swimming pool. (00:24:13) The water's fine. Let's go play. Leave (00:24:16) mommy. You're okay. You can try that. (00:24:18) You can take that risk, you know. And (00:24:20) the mother is sitting in the sidelines (00:24:22) going, "Oh no, the monkey bars." and the (00:24:24) father's going, "It's okay. It's okay. (00:24:26) He's got to take a risk." And so this (00:24:28) kind of um yin and yang of parenting (00:24:31) which allowed for the mother and (00:24:34) respected the mother's unique role in as (00:24:37) a primary attachment figure, but then (00:24:39) also respected the father's unique role (00:24:42) as as the love object of separation. So, (00:24:46) you know, of play, of building (00:24:49) resilience through play, of teaching (00:24:51) children regulation of certain emotions (00:24:54) like aggression and excitement. I mean, (00:24:57) fathers really through their own (00:25:00) modeling of the behavior. They teach (00:25:02) children, particularly little boys, but (00:25:04) little girls too, how to regulate (00:25:06) aggression, how to regulate anger, how (00:25:09) to regulate excitement. (00:25:11) Um, just by how they regulate it, they (00:25:14) watch their father. So fathers will play (00:25:16) rough and physical, but they won't go (00:25:19) over the line if they're healthy. So (00:25:21) those fathers will, you know, get to a (00:25:23) certain point, but then pull back or (00:25:26) they'll get angry without getting (00:25:28) enraged. Um they'll get excited without (00:25:30) being over-the-top excited, so their (00:25:32) bodies aren't out of control. And so (00:25:34) that's the kind of modeling and (00:25:37) interacting that fathers do that helps (00:25:40) um helps children to learn these things. (00:25:42) Whereas mothers are doing the the the (00:25:45) regulation of emotions like sadness and (00:25:48) fear and distress, fathers are much more (00:25:51) the objects of play. And so, you know, (00:25:54) when fathers are absent, there are a lot (00:25:57) of issues that we're seeing. Um, little (00:25:59) boys go to school, there's more (00:26:01) incidents of behavioral issues and (00:26:04) aggressive signs of early aggression. um (00:26:07) you know there's there there are more (00:26:10) more challenges particularly for little (00:26:12) boys when fathers aren't present. (00:26:14) >> I think I I read some research that (00:26:16) indicates that the majority of societal (00:26:18) challenges we're having actually might (00:26:20) stem back largely to fatherlessness in (00:26:22) the homes and they're indicating that at (00:26:24) least half of children now today are (00:26:27) being raised in households that don't (00:26:28) include a father or or at least are in (00:26:31) split households. Right? We're seeing a (00:26:33) tremendous rise in that. uh most of the (00:26:36) epidemics we're facing behaviorally, (00:26:38) mental illness challenges and all of (00:26:40) those experiences. I saw something on (00:26:41) your your Instagram reel recently where (00:26:43) you were speaking at a conference and (00:26:44) talking about mental illness rates and (00:26:46) children vastly increasing because of (00:26:48) these difficulties we're having. Can you (00:26:50) talk to us a little bit about that? The (00:26:51) link between mental illness and mental (00:26:53) disorder challenges and parenting issues (00:26:56) in the home. (00:26:58) Well, I mean, you speak about attachment (00:27:00) disorders, I know, a lot in uh in adults (00:27:03) and and relationships and and and so, (00:27:06) you know, attachment issues obviously (00:27:08) start very young uh from birth and you (00:27:12) know, essentially secure attachment is (00:27:15) the foundation for mental health. So, (00:27:18) [snorts] I can't say it more plainly (00:27:20) than that, that you want to raise a (00:27:22) securely attached child if you want them (00:27:25) to go out into the world, um, feeling (00:27:28) safe, feeling secure, being able to (00:27:31) regulate their emotions, being able to (00:27:34) cope with adversity in the future, um, (00:27:37) and and to find love and be loved. And (00:27:40) that's that's the plainest I can say it. (00:27:43) Um when you raise a child who does not (00:27:46) feel secure um because either you are (00:27:49) not physically or emotionally present (00:27:52) enough in those early years in the first (00:27:54) three years because we know in that (00:27:56) critical period of development 85% of (00:27:59) your right brain or your social (00:28:01) emotional brain is developed and it's (00:28:03) not until three years of age that all of (00:28:05) these wonderful things that are related (00:28:07) to emotional security are internalized (00:28:09) by a child. So they carry it with them (00:28:12) into life. Um and so yeah, it's secure (00:28:16) attachment is critical to mental health. (00:28:19) And when we don't have secure (00:28:21) attachment, (00:28:22) we have to develop as children, we have (00:28:25) to develop um pathological defenses that (00:28:28) help us to cope with the absence of that (00:28:33) person that we call mother or the our (00:28:36) primary attachment figure who is the (00:28:39) center of our universe and provides us (00:28:41) with that sense of security. So our (00:28:43) sense of security comes from that go-to (00:28:46) person at first. It's not until 3 years (00:28:49) that it's internalized and we carry that (00:28:52) person with us wherever we go whether (00:28:54) they're physically there or not. Um so (00:28:56) yeah that that that attachment security (00:28:59) is critical. So if you don't have it (00:29:01) then it leads to things uh then we're (00:29:04) seeing that those attachment disorders (00:29:06) avoidant attachment disorders the (00:29:08) ambivalent anxious attachment the (00:29:10) disorganized they all lead to and are (00:29:14) correlated with um different forms of (00:29:17) mental illness different um inabilities (00:29:20) to relate to others in a healthy way. um (00:29:24) to emotional dysregulation (00:29:27) um and disorders of emotional (00:29:29) dysregulation like depression, anxiety, (00:29:32) attentional issues, behavioral problems, (00:29:36) personality disorders. These are all (00:29:38) related to emotional regulation. So what (00:29:41) we're doing is we're medicating our (00:29:42) children and our adults um because we (00:29:46) never built into those children who then (00:29:49) became young adults and adults a sense (00:29:52) of emotional security. We abandoned that (00:29:56) and instead in its place is insecurity (00:30:00) and that insecurity is then correlated (00:30:02) with mental illness. (00:30:03) >> I fully agree with that. Um I I tried to (00:30:06) trace out through some of my work for (00:30:08) people exactly how generalized anxiety (00:30:11) disorder, uh bipolar disorders one and (00:30:13) two, even schizophrenia can be mapped (00:30:16) often back to this is how I adapt to the (00:30:18) stress in my environment. This is how my (00:30:20) system manages when I feel so unsafe (00:30:23) that I don't believe I am even going to (00:30:25) survive. This is how I adapt. I I I (00:30:28) don't like the framework that people (00:30:29) often use of attachment uh wounds or (00:30:31) healing because these are like you said (00:30:34) adaptations. These are adaptations that (00:30:36) we are correctly adapted to an (00:30:37) environment that we are no longer (00:30:39) currently in which is the challenge of (00:30:41) now I'm inappropriately adapted to an (00:30:43) environment that I'm not I'm not in (00:30:44) anymore. But (00:30:47) one thing that I have learned a lot is (00:30:49) that loneliness especially is tied into (00:30:51) these these adaptations. (00:30:53) >> We learn that we will never bond with (00:30:55) other people. I love you brought up (00:30:56) vasop prein. We talk about it constantly (00:30:57) on this show. I feel like I I feel like (00:30:59) I say vas of Preston about every other (00:31:01) sentence most days. Um it seems to be (00:31:04) something we have to be initiated into (00:31:06) because it has a couple of layers to it. (00:31:08) One, we have to we have to comprehend (00:31:10) that it's possible to collaborate with (00:31:12) other people to solve problems. We have (00:31:14) to comprehend that it's possible to live (00:31:17) in relation to someone in a way that is (00:31:19) safe and protective. We uh as fathers um (00:31:23) I recall myself and and many of my (00:31:25) clients, they often don't feel bonded to (00:31:28) their child in the first six months of (00:31:30) life. Not that they don't love them, but (00:31:32) bonded to them in the same way. And they (00:31:34) watch the mother bond through oxytocin (00:31:36) and breastfeeding and nurturing and (00:31:37) hugging. I'll always remember my wife (00:31:39) with our first child holding the baby in (00:31:42) the hospital bed and looking at me and (00:31:43) saying, "Isn't he so beautiful?" And I (00:31:45) look down and there's this little like (00:31:47) sort of like a monkey lizard kind of (00:31:49) like looking at me. And I was I was I (00:31:51) was looking at him and looking at her (00:31:52) and she goes, "Isn't he the most (00:31:54) beautiful thing?" And at the moment, it (00:31:56) didn't Yes, I suppose, you know, he's (00:31:59) he's quite wonderful. But I I'll always (00:32:01) remember about 6 months later, he was (00:32:03) able to sit up a bit more. He was able (00:32:04) to kind of move a bit and I could start (00:32:07) teaching him things. And through (00:32:09) teaching was where I began to bond with (00:32:11) him. And that's really what helped me (00:32:13) feel a a deeper human connection to him. (00:32:16) I loved him since before he was born. I (00:32:18) was waiting for him to come out. I I I (00:32:20) got a little choked up. I wept a little (00:32:22) bit when he was born because I was so (00:32:24) glad he was here. But but the human (00:32:26) connection wasn't there until I was able (00:32:28) to teach him. And as we have progressed, (00:32:30) my moments and my times teaching him (00:32:32) have been actually some of the most (00:32:34) treasured memories I hold. And I think (00:32:36) we are building vases prein. I'm (00:32:38) guiding. I'm teaching. I'm protecting. (00:32:40) I'm overcoming challenges. I'm helping (00:32:41) him overcome challenges. and I'm (00:32:43) initiating him into a sort of not not (00:32:46) uniquely masculine but but very (00:32:48) masculine at the same time bonding (00:32:50) protocols. I see a lot of men today who (00:32:53) don't know how to build male (00:32:54) friendships. They shy away from male (00:32:56) friendships. They shy away from the (00:32:57) roughness of it, uh the accountability (00:32:59) of it. They shy away from the teachings (00:33:02) of it. And then they don't actually talk (00:33:03) to their male companions or elder males (00:33:06) about challenges they're experiencing. (00:33:08) So then they can't troubleshoot with (00:33:09) them. They can't build solutions with (00:33:10) them. A lot of men therefore I think are (00:33:12) becoming very depressed and very shut (00:33:14) off. We see the uh the self harm rates (00:33:17) going through the roof for young men (00:33:18) even more so today. I really think (00:33:20) that's an initiation into vasopressin (00:33:22) that's missing in fatherhood. Does that (00:33:24) resonate with you? Does that make sense? (00:33:27) >> I do. I do. And I want to go back to the (00:33:30) early days just because you mentioned (00:33:31) it. So, I'll say that um I think there (00:33:34) there was a time when fathers um didn't (00:33:38) physically hold their babies because (00:33:41) um I think they felt a little fearful. (00:33:44) They were so fragile or they just said, (00:33:46) you know, it's just the woman's job and (00:33:48) so I don't do diapers and I don't bathe (00:33:50) the baby and I don't hold the baby. What (00:33:52) we know is that as I said, there were (00:33:54) good things that came out of the (00:33:56) feminist movement. One of the good (00:33:57) things is that women who women could be (00:34:01) a little bit more like men in certain (00:34:02) ways and men could be a little bit more (00:34:04) like women. And so it what we know is (00:34:07) that men can produce oxytocin when they (00:34:10) hold their babies or nurture their (00:34:11) babies. It comes from a different part (00:34:12) of the brain. And it doesn't make them (00:34:15) sensitive empathic nurturers. It makes (00:34:17) them playful. (00:34:18) >> Yes. (00:34:19) >> And so skin-to-skin contact with the (00:34:22) father. You said, "What can a father do (00:34:24) to bond with a baby early?" and and he (00:34:26) can hold his baby what to give the (00:34:28) mother relief because mothers need (00:34:30) relief from holding babies and by (00:34:33) holding the baby and making skin taking (00:34:35) his t-shirt off and having skin-to-skin (00:34:38) contact with that baby. It might not (00:34:40) make him look at that baby and go, "Oh, (00:34:42) honey, can I soothe you in distress and (00:34:44) give you the breast?" Because he doesn't (00:34:45) have one anyway. Um, but it it it will (00:34:48) make the father play with the baby. And (00:34:51) so that playful relationship is bonding (00:34:55) because it's the beginning of a playful (00:34:58) connection to the baby that will be a (00:35:02) kind of buddy relationship. So fathers (00:35:05) are buddies with their children under (00:35:08) the age of three. And then when the (00:35:10) separation starts around 18 months, then (00:35:13) they serve that function of the (00:35:15) vasopress and helping the kids to play (00:35:17) and take risks and and play and separate (00:35:20) a little. So I think there's a lot that (00:35:23) fathers can do to bond with their babies (00:35:27) early. I think um but it isn't the same (00:35:30) as mothers. And so that's where we get (00:35:32) confused because when it becomes a (00:35:34) competition between mothers and fathers (00:35:36) to see who the baby loves more in a (00:35:39) certain way or and that's what's (00:35:41) happened is that we've lost the whole (00:35:43) you'd say we've lost the plot which is (00:35:46) that um raising children has always been (00:35:48) a team exercise. (00:35:50) Uh, think of a corporation. You only (00:35:53) have one CEO, but then you have a CFO (00:35:55) and a COO and you have a head of (00:35:57) marketing and they do different things, (00:36:00) but they're all critical to the to the (00:36:02) to the organization. And so, I think (00:36:05) we've sort of lost the plot in that way (00:36:07) because now women and men compete, I'm (00:36:10) finding sort of a competitive thing (00:36:11) about raising children. And that then I (00:36:15) hate to say it bleeds over into other (00:36:17) things. It bleeds over when parents get (00:36:20) divorced. It bleeds over into custody (00:36:23) battles for very young children where (00:36:25) fathers say, "I can do the same thing as (00:36:29) the mother." Even though the baby's (00:36:30) breastfeeding and sleeping with the (00:36:32) mother and I'm the mother's body all the (00:36:35) time, the father then says, "Well, I'm (00:36:37) I'm the competition for the mother. I (00:36:39) can instead of saying, wait a second, (00:36:41) this is a very young baby. I'm going to (00:36:43) let this baby live with the mother and (00:36:46) be breastfed." So I want to ensure this (00:36:48) emotional security but I'm going to come (00:36:50) every day and play with that baby and (00:36:52) I'm going to hold that baby and so and (00:36:55) then later what are the repercussions (00:36:57) later (00:36:59) vasop prein (00:37:01) is it it is the bonding hormone for men (00:37:04) and it does produce this protective (00:37:07) aggressive relationship but it also is (00:37:10) the way that men nurture and so you take (00:37:13) the nurturing out of the relationship (00:37:16) and you have a vacuum and what what it (00:37:18) is what what then fills that vacuum uh (00:37:22) can be aggression, can be violence, can (00:37:24) be conflict. Um I'm I don't know if you (00:37:28) say this to the couples that you used to (00:37:29) treat as a therapist or on this show, (00:37:31) but I always say this to couples when (00:37:33) they come to see me. If the sex goes out (00:37:36) of a marriage, if the romance goes out (00:37:38) of a marriage, so there's aggression in (00:37:40) a marital relationship, healthy (00:37:42) aggression, teasing aggression that's (00:37:45) expressed through different behaviors. (00:37:46) And for parents and children is through (00:37:49) play. Through fathers and children, it's (00:37:51) play. Through couples, it's through sex. (00:37:54) When there's a sexless marriage, it (00:37:56) leaves a vacuum. And that vacuum is then (00:37:59) filled with hostility and aggression (00:38:02) that's not healthy. if it's not (00:38:04) sublimated into sex or teasing or loving (00:38:08) or and so this is what happens when um (00:38:12) you asked about older children and (00:38:13) vasopressin it leaves a vacuum and that (00:38:16) vacuum is then filled with stuff that's (00:38:17) not so good (00:38:18) >> right we start binging dopamine we are (00:38:20) susceptible to loneliness to anxieties (00:38:24) we know that when we have high levels of (00:38:26) oxytocin it stimulates high levels of (00:38:28) GABA which then suppresses cortisol (00:38:30) manages our nervous system so one of the (00:38:32) best things a father can do. And one (00:38:34) thing that I teach most of my clients is (00:38:35) the man needs to be physically holding (00:38:38) his wife, physically holding her every (00:38:41) single day nonsexually to stimulate as (00:38:44) much oxytocin as possible to then (00:38:46) stimulate GABA in her so that [sighs] (00:38:49) her nervous system is calm and regulated (00:38:52) and then she's better in herself. She's (00:38:53) better for their children. She's better (00:38:55) with him and more receptive for sex. But (00:38:57) if he's not physically taking time (00:38:59) number one to regulate his own nervous (00:39:01) system to hold her otherwise he's just (00:39:03) holding her and grinding his teeth and (00:39:04) st it's not going to calm her. Be calm (00:39:06) and regulated. Hold her and help her be (00:39:08) calm and regulated. She in turn can hold (00:39:10) your child. Let the oxytocin flow down (00:39:13) through your family. Most important (00:39:14) thing a man can do. Emotional safety as (00:39:17) well. Emotional safety meaning safety (00:39:19) for her to have emotions and safety for (00:39:21) her to be protected from your emotions. (00:39:24) Not not that you don't have them. who (00:39:25) must have them. But to discipline your (00:39:28) emotions, as you said, to let them see (00:39:29) anger, but not let them feel anger. (00:39:32) Those are two different things as well. (00:39:34) Children need to see when they make you (00:39:35) angry and and and give you an anger (00:39:37) response, I should say, at least when (00:39:38) they provoke an anger response, but they (00:39:40) shouldn't feel your wrath. You shouldn't (00:39:42) be punishing them. You should be (00:39:43) teaching them. Even your even your (00:39:45) emotions must be teaching tools. And (00:39:47) this leads to something very important. (00:39:49) You said something so beautiful, right? (00:39:50) We have different roles inside a (00:39:52) company. Everybody has a different a (00:39:54) different seauite executive role. I when (00:39:57) I work with couples now I do I coach (00:39:58) them. I have something called the CEO (00:40:00) and the COO model of marriage. Equal as (00:40:03) co-founders, equal co-founders, and (00:40:05) equal in value, different in (00:40:07) specialization, right? The man operates (00:40:09) most often as the CEO. Vision, clarity, (00:40:13) putting out fires, running at the (00:40:14) challenges, head first, right? Into the (00:40:17) wall kind of, so to speak, over and over (00:40:18) and over, but endlessly responsive to (00:40:21) the need of his organization and willing (00:40:23) to step into the line of fire again and (00:40:25) again. That's the CEO's job. The COO (00:40:28) should be protected and buffered from (00:40:30) any of that stress inside the company so (00:40:32) that they can focus purely on optimizing (00:40:36) operations, on harmony, on efficiency, (00:40:39) on inside the system, even the morale of (00:40:41) everybody involved, the wife operating (00:40:43) as the COO. She should not be on the (00:40:45) front line with stress. She should be (00:40:47) buffered from it as much as possible. (00:40:49) However, everybody out there listening (00:40:51) to that, if you're cringing a little bit (00:40:52) for a moment, remember that she is not (00:40:54) the assistant running and fetching the (00:40:56) CEO CEO's coffee. She is a full (00:40:59) executive co-equal in foundership, (00:41:01) different in specialization, working (00:41:03) effectively together with him to build (00:41:05) the systems that will maintain their (00:41:07) family. And the second aspect, and I (00:41:09) think where we've lost the thread, is so (00:41:11) much of the time we end up trying to (00:41:12) compete about who does our child love (00:41:14) more or how am I feeling right now or (00:41:16) have we had sex this week or am I (00:41:18) currently happy or or does my kid like (00:41:21) me right now in the next 5 minutes or (00:41:23) should I, you know, should I give them (00:41:24) an ice cream cone to make them like me? (00:41:26) Should I not discipline them so that (00:41:27) we're still friends? The plot we've lost (00:41:29) is the larger purpose. I think most (00:41:32) people are so focused into surviving the (00:41:34) next week or even the next day that (00:41:36) they're not thinking 40 years from now (00:41:38) when their child is in middle age (00:41:40) building their own family, their own (00:41:41) company, everything we have lost that (00:41:44) thread of looking at the rest of life or (00:41:46) at legacy itself. I think that that's a (00:41:48) big aspect. What um what role do you (00:41:52) think focusing together on legacy as a (00:41:54) family, where does that play into this (00:41:56) whole mix? (00:41:59) Well, I mean, I think we've become such (00:42:02) a very (00:42:04) immediate gratification kind of society. (00:42:08) We become a society that can't think (00:42:10) past. I mean, we have to do is look (00:42:12) politically. Nobody can think past like (00:42:15) today. What are my needs today? What are (00:42:17) society's needs today? And the truth is, (00:42:19) we have to be able to uh hold on to our (00:42:23) needs today, but also think what will (00:42:26) our needs be in the future. I mean, you (00:42:29) know, I I think there isn't a lot of (00:42:31) planning and strategizing for having (00:42:33) families, which is a problem. I mean, I (00:42:36) think there isn't a lot of asking (00:42:37) important questions about the future (00:42:39) when you pick a partner, which is one of (00:42:42) the reasons I think there's um there's a (00:42:45) lot of divorce because I think people (00:42:47) actually don't know each other very well (00:42:49) when they marry because they don't ask (00:42:50) really important questions about the (00:42:52) future because if they did, they might (00:42:54) not marry. um you know so I I do think (00:42:58) the ability to hold on to most (00:43:01) importantly be in the present but be (00:43:03) able to understand how the past affects (00:43:07) the present and then be able to also (00:43:09) plan for the future and think about the (00:43:11) future. I think there's many parents who (00:43:13) are so preoccupied and obsessed with (00:43:17) their careers that all they can think (00:43:19) about is their immediate gratification (00:43:22) and uh sense of satisfaction with their (00:43:25) work right this moment outside the home (00:43:28) and not thinking about what that absence (00:43:31) will do to their children three years (00:43:33) from now, 10 years from now, 20 years (00:43:36) from now, 30 years from now. Um meaning (00:43:41) I mean Aristotle's deathbed question is (00:43:43) an important thing which is you know who (00:43:45) will be sitting by your bed when you (00:43:47) die. Will it be your um the people that (00:43:51) you worked with you know your boss or (00:43:55) your co-workers? Are they going to be (00:43:56) sitting holding your hand when you're (00:43:58) dying? Or is it going to be the people (00:44:00) that you took time away from your uh (00:44:04) work outside the home to be with, to (00:44:06) love, to be at at their baseball games, (00:44:10) to be at their recital, to pick them up (00:44:14) from school, to do homework with them, (00:44:16) to play baseball in the backyard, to eat (00:44:18) dinner with them, you know, talk to them (00:44:21) about their day. Who's going to be (00:44:23) sitting by your bed when you die? And I (00:44:26) guarantee you're not going to be wishing (00:44:27) that you had made more money or had a (00:44:30) bigger promotion when you're dying. (00:44:32) Those aren't the things you're going to (00:44:33) be thinking about. You're going to be uh (00:44:36) with the people that you love or that (00:44:38) love you. And if you didn't love enough (00:44:41) in those early years with your children, (00:44:43) I think what you'll find is that you (00:44:45) won't get much back. (00:44:48) >> Yes. We we we spend the first 12 years (00:44:51) with our children chasing us and then we (00:44:54) spend the next if we're lucky 50 to 60 (00:44:56) years chasing them hoping that they are (00:44:58) easy to catch. And and part of our job (00:45:01) is making sure that they want to come (00:45:02) back to us so we don't have to chase (00:45:03) them as hard as we get older. One thing (00:45:06) that um I'm very inspired by Aristotle's (00:45:08) deathbed question and it's something (00:45:09) I've turned it into with most of my (00:45:11) clients is the day after your funeral, (00:45:15) the people that you love will be left (00:45:17) behind. How would you like them to be (00:45:20) interacting with each other? Would you (00:45:22) like them to be supporting each other? (00:45:24) Would you like them to be arguing and (00:45:25) bickering about cash and money and (00:45:27) inheritance? Would you like them to not (00:45:28) even speak to each other and be alone in (00:45:30) this world? uh my five children, my wife (00:45:33) and I are doing our utmost to raise them (00:45:36) not in a way that smothers them and says (00:45:38) you you have to serve the family but in (00:45:40) a way that says you you five children (00:45:43) soon to be six. You are in some ways all (00:45:46) that you will have in this world. You (00:45:48) you are each other's greatest assets and (00:45:50) each other's greatest enemies at the (00:45:52) same time. Here's how you can live (00:45:55) together in peace. Here's how you can (00:45:56) support each other. Let's practice that. (00:45:58) be, for example, we uh my wife and I (00:46:00) both try to make sure that each of our (00:46:02) children pair off with each of the other (00:46:04) children differently at different times (00:46:06) to play the oldest with the youngest, (00:46:07) the boys with the girls, different (00:46:09) experiences with each other so that they (00:46:11) don't separate out and almost bulcanize (00:46:14) so that they are really getting time (00:46:16) together as as as individuals, as (00:46:18) couples really in that regard. And what (00:46:20) we've seen is that at first they resist (00:46:23) they were resistant because they had (00:46:25) they had their favorites of of who (00:46:27) matched well among the family, right? My (00:46:29) my two oldest daughters best friends. (00:46:31) It's hard to get them to separate, even (00:46:33) go even to leave the room from each (00:46:35) other. Uh the boys want to punch and (00:46:38) fight and and wrestle each other and (00:46:39) bite each other like a couple of (00:46:41) gorillas constantly. What we found was (00:46:44) as we guided the children to play (00:46:46) differently with each other was that (00:46:48) different aspects of their personality (00:46:50) started to grow. Instead of just being (00:46:52) the jokester all the time, sometimes my (00:46:54) my middle daughter, she could actually (00:46:58) step forward as a voice of wisdom for (00:46:59) some of the younger children instead of (00:47:01) feeling like she had to compensate by (00:47:02) being funny with the older ones. Uh my (00:47:04) oldest daughter, instead of always (00:47:06) having to be a guide, if she stepped in (00:47:08) just with her oldest brother, she could (00:47:10) just relax, let her hair down, and be (00:47:12) the youngest one in the room for a bit. (00:47:13) So helping them pair out differently was (00:47:16) so important. Siblings, how important do (00:47:19) you think it is for a family maybe to (00:47:21) have more than one child so that they (00:47:22) have a sibling experience? (00:47:24) >> Well, I'm always careful to be sensitive (00:47:27) about this because there's some people (00:47:28) who can have more than one child. But (00:47:29) what I would say is that siblings are a (00:47:31) wonderful gift to children. it may not (00:47:34) feel that way to them when they're (00:47:35) really young and they're competing with (00:47:37) one another and it's normal for siblings (00:47:39) to be rivalists and you know if there's (00:47:42) enough love and attention and presence (00:47:44) from parents um the rivalry remains (00:47:48) rather tame most of the time you know (00:47:51) maybe with the spikes as we say but um (00:47:55) if there isn't enough love and attention (00:47:57) and uh presence from parents often (00:48:00) siblings are really I mean if you think (00:48:01) about it what they're really fighting as (00:48:03) they're fighting over attention from (00:48:05) parents. So, um you know, I would say (00:48:09) that the important thing is to recognize (00:48:12) that sibling rivalry is normal, but if (00:48:15) it's very excessive to reflect on (00:48:17) whether it's actually your child's way (00:48:20) of telling you they're not getting (00:48:21) enough of you. Um because parents, (00:48:24) particularly parents with a lot of (00:48:25) children, can sometimes, it's like (00:48:28) whack-a-ole, the game whack-a-ole from (00:48:30) carnivals. kind of have to go where (00:48:32) you're needed and then go where you're (00:48:34) needed again and then sort of do the (00:48:36) rounds. But um sib a sibling (00:48:39) relationship is a gift that you give to (00:48:41) your children. Um it's a wonderful state (00:48:43) of grace to be a sibling. Um it's a (00:48:46) relationship as you said that you'll (00:48:47) have once your parents pass. Um there's (00:48:51) nothing quite like it. Uh it can cause (00:48:53) great love and intimacy and great (00:48:56) animosity, but there's still nothing (00:48:58) else like it. And so um yeah, I would (00:49:01) say it's very very valuable um in terms (00:49:05) of um you know parents relationship with (00:49:09) when you have so many children. I mean (00:49:11) you want to make an effort um as you (00:49:13) said with the pairings of your children (00:49:15) to be alone with each child and that's (00:49:18) the hard part when you have a lot of (00:49:20) children is not to bunch them together, (00:49:22) right? Because we want to to make it (00:49:25) easy on ourselves. We sort of say, "Okay (00:49:27) guys, let's all do it as a family. Let's (00:49:29) all be together." And the thing is, kids (00:49:32) don't necessarily do well in that kind (00:49:34) of family claustrophob kind of throwing (00:49:37) people together into a big ball. They do (00:49:40) better when their individual sort of (00:49:42) needs are met at least some of the time. (00:49:44) And so like even having um a date with (00:49:48) each child to have time with them alone (00:49:50) each week to have a meal with them alone (00:49:52) to you know not to undervalue the value (00:49:56) of all together. Now um but yeah it's (00:50:00) probably less important really than the (00:50:03) individual relationship which helps that (00:50:05) child to sustain (00:50:08) uh the love they have for their siblings (00:50:10) in the future. I love this and my wife (00:50:12) is admittedly better at this than I am. (00:50:14) She has a spreadsheet where she tracks (00:50:16) the individual date nights for each (00:50:18) child. We have a rotating system. She (00:50:21) tells me whose night it is. I take that (00:50:22) kid. I go spend time with them for an (00:50:24) hour, two, three. We go to a restaurant. (00:50:26) Whatever we can do, she tracks it very (00:50:28) carefully. She's so diligent and it's it (00:50:30) is crucial. Family time. Family time (00:50:33) they play a role. They play a character (00:50:35) in the family. one- on-one individual (00:50:38) time. You see who they really are and (00:50:40) they get to develop their own identity (00:50:41) apart from the family under your (00:50:43) guidance and your mentorship. You get to (00:50:45) experience them. My oldest son is a (00:50:48) vastly different human being in a group (00:50:51) setting. He's almost unmanageable in a (00:50:53) group setting. He doineers. He takes (00:50:55) over. He's right now he's at a tough (00:50:57) age, but he is he is the largest (00:51:00) character in the room and he feels like (00:51:02) he needs to be. And I'm I'm trying to (00:51:04) nurture him through that. And the way (00:51:05) I'm nurturing him through that is when (00:51:06) we have our one-on-one times, he is the (00:51:09) calmst, most intellectual, most (00:51:12) empathetic, most thoughtful individual. (00:51:14) We have incredible conversations. Even (00:51:16) at 9 years old, we have fantastic (00:51:18) conversations. And I'm I'm nurturing him (00:51:21) through that to help him understand you (00:51:23) don't have to be this character here (00:51:25) right now. You can be this person and (00:51:27) shift your role over here in our family. (00:51:30) You don't have to fight for that. And (00:51:31) he's he's growing into that. He's (00:51:33) learning. He's riding the testosterone (00:51:35) instead of it riding him a little bit. (00:51:36) But the the individual time, I don't (00:51:38) think without the individual time that (00:51:40) he could grow into a healthy, robust (00:51:42) group character. I think that he would (00:51:44) be damaging in that aspect. (00:51:46) I think that siblings are crucial in (00:51:48) that regard. I love that. Tying back to (00:51:51) mothers a little bit, fathers are I (00:51:55) don't want to say this carefully. (00:51:58) [clears throat] Fathers are notorious uh (00:52:00) for getting tunnel focus and and myself (00:52:02) included at times. Uh we are notorious (00:52:05) for getting tunnel focus on providing (00:52:07) financial safety, for thinking that (00:52:08) there's always another task to be done, (00:52:10) for not being able to sit down and rest (00:52:12) because we feel like there's something (00:52:13) we have to do. Uh we are notorious for (00:52:16) fixating into work and business and (00:52:18) practical aspects. And often times we do (00:52:22) lose sight sometimes of the emotional (00:52:25) importance of pausing, breathing, (00:52:28) spending that time. Sometimes it's hard (00:52:29) to get our attention. What is the role (00:52:32) of motherhood or or wifehood in this (00:52:34) regard of getting fathers re-engaged? (00:52:36) What can what can women be doing to get (00:52:38) men back into that system, back into the (00:52:41) living room instead of the garage, so to (00:52:42) speak? (00:52:44) Well, I suppose you could say that. I (00:52:48) don't I hate to use this word because (00:52:49) it's it sounds critical or judgmental, (00:52:52) and I don't mean it that way because in (00:52:53) psychological terms, it's not a (00:52:55) judgment. But when we feel greedy, (00:52:59) when enough is not enough, when we're (00:53:03) always fearful that we don't have enough (00:53:06) money or enough resources, but we (00:53:08) actually do. (00:53:11) um and we're always wanting more and (00:53:13) more and more. It's actually a sign of (00:53:16) some pathology. (00:53:19) So, um workaholics, it's not a healthy (00:53:22) thing and it's usually something that in (00:53:25) a way defines some kind of early (00:53:28) attachment issues because they never (00:53:30) quite feel secure enough. You know, (00:53:34) Stephven CVY used to say, you know, we (00:53:36) can spend our lives putting out fires or (00:53:39) we can get to the most important tasks (00:53:40) of life, which are relationships and (00:53:43) relationship building. So, I think (00:53:46) there's a lot of fathers who live in (00:53:49) fear that they're not going to have (00:53:50) enough to provide for their families. (00:53:53) And maybe some of them don't have enough (00:53:55) and that's reality and they have to keep (00:53:57) working. But the others, (00:54:00) you know, I would say that there's a lot (00:54:02) of fearfulness around money too that may (00:54:06) be based in reality, but also a lot that (00:54:09) may not be based in reality. And so what (00:54:11) happens when it's not based in reality (00:54:13) and what the father's really saying is (00:54:16) I'm feeling frightened that I will never (00:54:18) be enough, never have enough, never be (00:54:22) able to provide enough. It's sort of not (00:54:25) being good enough. And that does tie (00:54:26) back to early, you know. So I always say (00:54:28) if your husband is a workaholic (00:54:31) and not really present for your kids, (00:54:33) don't let them get away with it because (00:54:34) it's not good for them either because (00:54:36) it's a sign that they feel in they're (00:54:39) desperately being chased by a fear of, (00:54:43) you know, not being enough. And so and (00:54:46) that can lead to depression. And that's (00:54:48) the problem that if we don't as wives, (00:54:51) as women catch it when our men are are (00:54:55) in such fearful states that it can if we (00:54:58) leave it untouched, you know, and think (00:55:00) it's not such a big deal and then your (00:55:04) husband loses his job or he loses some (00:55:07) money or I mean that's that's when men (00:55:10) get very severely depressed if they feel (00:55:13) that the only thing that makes them feel (00:55:15) like they're enough is being providers. (00:55:18) There's so much more to being a man and (00:55:20) being a father and being in a h a (00:55:21) husband than just being a provider. And (00:55:24) so, yeah, that's what I would say about (00:55:26) it that women play a role in and and and (00:55:30) in being the checks and balances for men (00:55:34) and saying, you know, you're spending (00:55:36) too much time working and not spending (00:55:38) enough time with the family and not (00:55:39) spending enough time with me. And that's (00:55:41) sort of an old trope, right? You you're (00:55:43) used to hearing that. But it's actually (00:55:45) very important because if men don't (00:55:47) diversify (00:55:48) how they get satisfied in life with (00:55:51) their relationships, then if they should (00:55:54) lose their jobs, if they should stop (00:55:55) making money, if something should (00:55:57) happen, if they get ill and they can't (00:55:58) make money, they fall into very very (00:56:01) deep depressions. And so um yeah, that's (00:56:04) what I would say. (00:56:05) >> That's a wonderful answer. I and I (00:56:07) reflect on my own marriage. My wife, one (00:56:09) of the greatest gifts she's given me is (00:56:11) to not be afraid of me and to not and to (00:56:13) not take my crap. Both of those is I (00:56:16) think a lot of women are either afraid (00:56:18) of their man because they're afraid that (00:56:20) if they provoke some sort of discomfort (00:56:23) in him that he'll leave or a lot of (00:56:26) women feel that the best way to be a (00:56:27) loving partner is to reduce his friction (00:56:30) to zero and give him no friction (00:56:32) whatsoever so that he will sort of (00:56:35) blossom into a greater version of (00:56:37) himself. because life is so easy. And I (00:56:40) think that that that is a fundamental (00:56:41) misunderstanding of what makes a man (00:56:44) actually grow and strengthen, right? Men (00:56:46) men often seek friction if he's a (00:56:49) healthy man especially. He wants to (00:56:50) grow. His muscles only grow through (00:56:52) carrying heavy things and through (00:56:54) fighting and wrestling. So, one of the (00:56:56) greatest things my wife has done for me (00:56:57) is if I if I get off on a a too far or (00:57:01) I'm spending too much time at work or (00:57:02) too much time invested in projects or (00:57:04) whatever it may be or if I'm getting too (00:57:06) worried about something, she will get in (00:57:08) front of me, grab me by the nose in a (00:57:10) non non-aggress, but grab me by the nose (00:57:12) and just shake it a little bit. Say, (00:57:14) "Hey, where are you right now?" Just (00:57:16) right now, where are you? Because your (00:57:18) feet are here and I need you to spend a (00:57:21) bit more time with this child or this (00:57:22) child or this child. We need to make (00:57:24) sure we're investing properly. And it's (00:57:26) my job as a man to take that and because (00:57:28) I've told her to do that. That's a job I (00:57:30) assigned to her to breathe, say, "Okay, (00:57:33) I'm going to listen to you right now at (00:57:35) this moment. I will assume you know (00:57:36) better than I do. We'll talk about it (00:57:38) and uh let me reorient my nervous (00:57:40) system, get back on track, and then get (00:57:42) to a place where I'm spending time. You (00:57:43) said that kid over there. Okay, I'll go (00:57:44) spend time with them next." We have to (00:57:46) be able to be not reactive. Men (00:57:49) shouldn't be reactive, but responsive. (00:57:52) We should be responsive to our wife and (00:57:54) in return our wife needs to give us (00:57:56) something to respond to. Frictionless I (00:57:59) I I think friction frictionless (00:58:01) marriages are some of the worst things (00:58:02) on the planet because they always lead (00:58:04) to divorce. Does that make sense to you? (00:58:09) >> Sounds like that sounds like you agree (00:58:10) with that regard. Do you think women (00:58:12) today should be a little more brave in (00:58:13) their marriages and men should be a (00:58:15) little bit more responsive? (00:58:17) Well, interestingly, I'm going to (00:58:18) challenge your narrative that we talked (00:58:20) about a corporation. Let's do it. (00:58:22) >> I think women are more the CEOs and (00:58:24) families and fathers are the CFOs. (00:58:27) >> Interesting. (00:58:28) >> And the reason I say that is because I (00:58:30) think women (00:58:33) are the ones who are actually making a (00:58:36) lot of decisions about the family. (00:58:38) They're making a lot of decisions about (00:58:40) the well-being of the children. They're (00:58:42) making I mean, there are sort of boots (00:58:44) on the ground. So they're seeing things (00:58:46) that fathers can't see because they're (00:58:48) at work. And and so I think in the end (00:58:51) mothers and and you and if you ask (00:58:53) people in other countries, they would (00:58:55) say that mothers are um (00:58:58) you know, even in countries where women (00:59:02) seemingly have less important roles, you (00:59:05) know, cultures in the Middle East. And (00:59:08) if you go into their homes when they're (00:59:10) taking off their veils, they have a lot (00:59:13) of control in those homes. So I think um (00:59:17) yeah, women sort of make a lot of (00:59:20) important decisions for families. Um but (00:59:24) fathers really keep the boat afloat (00:59:26) financially particularly in those years. (00:59:28) I mean the CFO of a company I would say (00:59:31) is of equal importance to the CEO. (00:59:34) they're of equal importance, but they (00:59:36) have different roles. Um, and so I think (00:59:40) it's the mother who says, "Actually, (00:59:42) Johnny might have a learning (00:59:43) disability." Or, "Jane, I think needs (00:59:46) piano lessons. She's, you know, she's (00:59:48) really got some talent there." Or, you (00:59:50) know, we haven't taken a vacation as a (00:59:52) family and you're looking exhausted and (00:59:55) and you haven't really got we haven't (00:59:56) gone on a date night lately. I mean, (00:59:58) mothers are really the CEOs. I'm going (01:00:01) to say [laughter] (01:00:02) they make a lot of, you know, there's a (01:00:04) lot going on there. But that that means (01:00:06) that that that's sort of the analogy of (01:00:09) you can be of equal power but have (01:00:13) different roles. And I think that's the (01:00:15) concept. (01:00:16) >> I think that it is so crucial that we (01:00:19) understand that there is no competition (01:00:21) between men and women. There is no (01:00:24) competition. If you are in one company, (01:00:26) >> executives, it must be executives in a (01:00:30) company don't compete against each other (01:00:31) at all. If they do, that company goes (01:00:33) bankrupt. And the same way that your (01:00:35) marriage will go bankrupt if you're not (01:00:37) collaborating and unified together as a (01:00:39) team. (01:00:40) >> You can have disagreements. Actually, (01:00:41) the healthiest companies do have (01:00:43) disagreements. An open dialogue, but (01:00:45) respectful unified front where you are (01:00:48) working together toward a shared (01:00:49) purpose. It is non-negotiable. I think (01:00:52) we need to be bringing that back. And if (01:00:54) if we have to teach men and women how to (01:00:56) do that again and bring them back to the (01:00:57) table so that they can trust each other (01:00:59) enough to work as a company, then so be (01:01:01) it. I think that we've given them a (01:01:03) great framework here today to understand (01:01:04) what that is supposed to look like. Do (01:01:06) you have any last thoughts to throw into (01:01:09) the audience? And at the same time, (01:01:11) where can they find you? Because I want (01:01:12) them to understand everything about your (01:01:14) work. I want them to understand (01:01:16) everything about all the motherhood (01:01:17) aspects that you teach. That is crucial. (01:01:19) I want every woman on the planet to hear (01:01:21) it. (01:01:22) >> So they can find me at www.comomasar.com (01:01:27) and on there you can reach out to make (01:01:29) an appointment with me. You can find out (01:01:32) about speaking engagements and my (01:01:34) writing is all on there and um and you (01:01:37) know I think you can also follow me on (01:01:39) Twitter or you can follow me on (01:01:41) Instagram uh at Erica Komasar. Um, but (01:01:45) you know, I want to just sort of put a (01:01:47) plug in for a couple of things that I'm (01:01:49) doing. One is I have a book coming out (01:01:50) in March about divorce, as we talked (01:01:52) about, which I think is going to help a (01:01:54) lot of people to raise healthy children (01:01:57) through a very difficult time. Um, but I (01:02:00) also started a nonprofit called (01:02:02) detachment circles uh.org org and that's (01:02:05) got a website of its own and basically (01:02:07) it's a it's a platform for education and (01:02:10) community building around healthy child (01:02:13) development and it's really for I found (01:02:16) that parents who were very um serious (01:02:19) about uh attachment security and raising (01:02:24) really mentally healthy children felt (01:02:26) quite isolated because they uh felt that (01:02:30) parents were so preoccupied uh with work (01:02:33) outside the home and other things and (01:02:35) and so I wanted a place where parents (01:02:37) who really wanted to learn about child (01:02:39) development and also find other parents (01:02:42) who were who were raising their own (01:02:44) children who wanted to form communities (01:02:46) could find each other. So (01:02:47) attachmentscircles.org (01:02:49) is a wonderful organization and a place (01:02:51) that you can go to find community and (01:02:54) and learn a great deal about a lot of (01:02:56) the things we're talking about today. So (01:02:58) important that we have those communities (01:03:00) because today people are more isolated (01:03:02) than they've ever been. We think that (01:03:04) our phone is keeping us integrated with (01:03:06) others. We are not. We are alone (01:03:08) biochemically everything. We are alone. (01:03:11) Get in contact, get connected to people. (01:03:13) This is one of the most important things (01:03:15) I think one of the most important fights (01:03:16) we're going to have for the next 10 (01:03:17) years is helping people get reintegrated (01:03:20) with each other as we have fractured (01:03:21) them off into their own homes and (01:03:23) apartments now. So thank you for doing (01:03:24) that. That is incredibly important work. (01:03:27) Everybody out there, you know what to (01:03:29) do. Her Instagram especially is (01:03:31) wonderful. There is so much information (01:03:33) on there. All those links will be down (01:03:34) below in the show notes and the (01:03:36) descriptions. Check them out and I will (01:03:38) see you on the next episode of I Wish (01:03:40) You Knew.