Gabor Mate: The Childhood Lie That’s Ruining All Of Our Lives. | E193 (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) Financial stress on the parents (00:00:02) translates into physiological stress in (00:00:04) the children they didn't inherit (00:00:06) anything in terms of a disease they're (00:00:08) just reacting to the environment people (00:00:10) call Dr gabomate the people whisper (00:00:13) legendary thinker and best-selling (00:00:14) author he's highly sought after for his (00:00:16) expertise on addiction stress and (00:00:19) childhood development the evidence (00:00:20) evidence linking mental illness and (00:00:22) childhood adversity is about as strong (00:00:24) as the evidence linking smoking and lung (00:00:26) cancer and the average physician doesn't (00:00:28) hear a word about that it's astonishing (00:00:31) I can give you the example of a Donald (00:00:32) Trump I mean his father was a psychopath (00:00:35) you are the enemy of the people go ahead (00:00:37) for him these were not choices so much (00:00:39) as survival techniques and that's the (00:00:42) mark of a traumatized child a denial of (00:00:44) reality (00:00:45) what do I have to understand about your (00:00:47) earliest years to understand you (00:00:49) my grandparents were killed in Auschwitz (00:00:51) and my mother and I barely survived and (00:00:54) then my mother to save my life gives me (00:00:56) to a stranger in the sense I guess that (00:00:59) I'm being rejected and abandoned because (00:01:00) I'm not good enough how did that rear (00:01:02) its ugly head throughout your life in a (00:01:05) number of ways it's the traumas I Define (00:01:07) it is not about what happens to us it's (00:01:09) about what happens inside of us as a (00:01:11) result of what happens to us it's (00:01:12) costing us in terms of our physical (00:01:14) health our relationship our mental (00:01:16) health and so on how does one go about (00:01:18) correcting that it's a multi-layered (00:01:20) answer first of all (00:01:24) before this episode begins I just want (00:01:26) to say a huge thank you to all of our (00:01:27) new subscribers 74 of you that watch (00:01:30) this channel didn't subscribe before and (00:01:32) we're now down to about 71 so that helps (00:01:36) us in a number of ways that are quite (00:01:37) hard to explain but simply the bigger (00:01:39) the channel gets the bigger the guests (00:01:40) get so if you haven't yet subscribed to (00:01:42) the Diary of a CEO if I can have any (00:01:44) favors from you if you've ever watched (00:01:45) the show and enjoyed it it's just to (00:01:47) please hit the Subscribe button without (00:01:49) further Ado I'm Stephen Butler and this (00:01:52) is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's (00:01:54) listening but if you are then please (00:01:56) keep this yourself (00:01:57) [Music] (00:02:04) my dear little man (00:02:07) only after many long months do I take it (00:02:10) in hand the pen (00:02:11) so that I may briefly sketch for you the (00:02:14) Unspeakable horrors of those times the (00:02:17) details of which I do not wish you to (00:02:20) know (00:02:21) those are words that your mother wrote (00:02:23) into her diary in the 1940s during the (00:02:27) Holocaust (00:02:30) in April of 1945 three months after the (00:02:34) Soviet Army expelled the Nazis from (00:02:38) Budapest which is where we live so she (00:02:40) was referring to (00:02:41) the previous year and the beginning of (00:02:44) that year late 1944 and early 1945. and (00:02:48) in those diary entries she's addressing (00:02:50) many of them to you directly as a baby (00:02:52) sure to Dairy to me directly (00:02:54) um as if it was like a account of my (00:02:56) life (00:02:58) addressed to me (00:03:00) you talk so much in in your in all your (00:03:03) books um and much of your work about the (00:03:05) importance of that early context it's (00:03:07) really been I mean the center point of (00:03:09) all the writing that I've read recently (00:03:10) and I know because it's (00:03:12) it's so evident in everything that (00:03:14) you've done that that's been a key your (00:03:16) own early context has been a key (00:03:17) inspiration for why you've taken such a (00:03:19) an interest in these topics what was (00:03:22) your early context what do I have to (00:03:23) understand about your earliest years to (00:03:25) understand you (00:03:26) so it's just a fact about human beings (00:03:30) that (00:03:31) the template that forms us will affect (00:03:34) how we see the world how we understand (00:03:36) ourselves how we relate to other people (00:03:39) and um the early template is earliest (00:03:42) months even in Europe already in the (00:03:45) womb we're being affected by the (00:03:47) environment but certainly in the early (00:03:48) years when our brain is being formed and (00:03:50) our personality is taking shape (00:03:53) and so that forms our world view now my (00:03:57) worldview was in my sense of self was (00:04:00) shaped by the fact that (00:04:02) at two months of age when I was two (00:04:04) months of age the German Army occupied (00:04:06) Hungary Hungary was the last country in (00:04:09) Eastern Europe where the Jewish (00:04:10) population had not been exterminated and (00:04:13) that was our turn (00:04:14) the day after the German Army marched (00:04:16) into Budapest which was March the 19th (00:04:17) to the 1944 the day after my mother (00:04:21) called the (00:04:22) pediatrician to say would you please (00:04:24) come and see Gabor because he's crying (00:04:26) all the time and the doctor said of (00:04:28) course I'll come but all my Jewish (00:04:30) babies are crying (00:04:31) and so that the fact is that when (00:04:34) mothers are stressed or in pain the (00:04:35) infant feels all that and takes it (00:04:37) personally and it becomes part of their (00:04:39) template for how they view the world (00:04:42) so that was that year that's when that (00:04:43) year began in which my grandparents were (00:04:45) killed in Auschwitz and my father was (00:04:46) away in forced labor and my mother and I (00:04:49) barely survived and (00:04:50) a story I've told many times but (00:04:53) that's where my brain is developing and (00:04:55) that's when I'm forming my sense of (00:04:56) myself (00:04:58) and then my mother to save my life gives (00:05:01) me to a stranger and I don't see her for (00:05:03) six weeks the sense I get is that I'm (00:05:07) not wanted then I'm being rejected and (00:05:09) Abandoned and because I'm not good (00:05:10) enough (00:05:11) that's (00:05:12) how my life began (00:05:15) so your mother gives you away for five (00:05:18) to six weeks yeah in order to sort of (00:05:20) save you from starvation and you know (00:05:22) ghetto that that she was going to right (00:05:25) that's right this is after after your (00:05:28) grandparents were killed in our switch (00:05:30) by yeah the Nazis (00:05:33) um how do you know in hindsight that (00:05:35) that that moment of those six weeks (00:05:37) created that sense of Abandonment in you (00:05:40) I wouldn't say it's just about that one (00:05:42) moment children very much view (00:05:44) themselves (00:05:46) through their interactions with their (00:05:48) parents (00:05:49) now first of all I had no father because (00:05:51) he was gone I hadn't hadn't seen him (00:05:55) except very briefly I'm one of the month (00:05:57) old but there was no father in the (00:05:58) picture my mother was grief stricken and (00:06:01) terrorized and full of Woe and worry (00:06:04) about what's going to happen to us and (00:06:05) just the the task of surviving each day (00:06:12) she's not playful with me she's not (00:06:13) smiling at me very much she's worried (00:06:16) looking she's stressed looking (00:06:19) the infant takes everything personally (00:06:21) that's just the nature of the infant as (00:06:23) infants were a narcissist we think it's (00:06:25) all about us so when things are great (00:06:27) hey we're great but my mother is unhappy (00:06:31) it's because she doesn't want me or I (00:06:34) can't make her happy or I'm inadequate (00:06:36) so that separation from my mother (00:06:40) certainly set a template for some of my (00:06:42) relationship interactions with my spouse (00:06:45) decades later but the sense of not being (00:06:48) good enough and and and and being (00:06:50) responsible (00:06:52) that was inculcated in me throughout (00:06:55) that whole first year of life so much so (00:06:57) that in this book The Myth of normal I (00:06:59) actually talk about a an experience with (00:07:02) psychedelic mushrooms at the with the (00:07:05) therapist this was not that long ago (00:07:07) seven years ago maybe (00:07:09) um (00:07:10) when I'm at least 70 years old and (00:07:13) I'm in this therapeutic session with the (00:07:15) cytocybin the the medicine (00:07:18) and the therapist and I know that I'm 78 (00:07:22) 70 years old and I know this is a (00:07:24) therapy session and I know her name and (00:07:26) I know (00:07:27) who I am in the world but at the same (00:07:29) time I'm experiencing myself as a (00:07:31) one-year-old baby and she's my mother (00:07:34) and I start crying tears come down to my (00:07:36) my face and I say I'm so sorry I made (00:07:39) your life so difficult (00:07:42) now that was an unconscious memory of my (00:07:44) sense of myself as a one-year-old that I (00:07:47) made my mother's life so difficult (00:07:49) because that's the way the baby (00:07:51) interprets it (00:07:52) so even if your mother loved you which (00:07:55) mine did infinitely not that she always (00:07:58) treated me the best way possible but she (00:08:00) did love me and um (00:08:02) can you imagine what a great Act of Love (00:08:04) even giving me to a stranger in the (00:08:06) street would have been for her you know (00:08:08) but because of her own unhappiness I can (00:08:11) only conclude that I'm not good enough (00:08:14) and it's my fault (00:08:17) it's 70 years old having that psilocybin (00:08:19) experience coming to that realization or (00:08:21) having that sort of (00:08:23) um having that response to your (00:08:25) therapist where they take the role of (00:08:27) your mother and you're a one-year-old (00:08:28) how does somebody at 70 years old go (00:08:30) about correcting that that sort of (00:08:34) interpretation you had of that traumatic (00:08:36) early early event (00:08:38) well by bringing up to the conscious (00:08:41) level (00:08:42) them and I noticed that sense of guilt (00:08:45) or responsibility in me I say oh (00:08:47) that's what it's about so it's it's a (00:08:50) meaning (00:08:51) see traumas I Define it is not about (00:08:54) what happens to us it's about what (00:08:55) happens inside of us as a result of what (00:08:57) happens to us (00:08:58) and so the wound in my in trauma means (00:09:00) wounds the wound in this case is my (00:09:02) sense of deficiency or not being good (00:09:04) enough not being worthy enough once I (00:09:06) realized that oh this has got nothing to (00:09:09) do with anything except this (00:09:12) interpretation that I made with my own (00:09:14) experience all those years ago then when (00:09:17) I noticed it I can no longer believe it (00:09:19) I don't have to any longer be a a (00:09:21) subject (00:09:23) to that interpretation of myself in the (00:09:25) world so awareness is one step it's not (00:09:29) adequate but it's an essential step (00:09:31) towards um letting go (00:09:34) that one belief that you weren't good (00:09:36) enough yeah how did that (00:09:38) rare its ugly head throughout your life (00:09:42) it (00:09:43) um made me a workaholic physician (00:09:46) because they had to keep proving my (00:09:47) worth (00:09:48) and it doesn't matter no I don't know if (00:09:51) you ever had an addiction but the nature (00:09:52) of it is that we're trying to get from (00:09:54) the outside something that only can (00:09:57) arise and fulfill us from the inside (00:10:00) so (00:10:02) when you're looking at from the outside (00:10:03) it's addictive because you get it (00:10:05) temporarily but then that internal (00:10:08) emptiness that hole never goes away so (00:10:11) it has to be filled over and over and (00:10:12) over again it can only be done so (00:10:15) temporarily so it becomes runaway (00:10:17) addictive so then you know work becomes (00:10:19) an addiction because I keep trying to (00:10:21) improve my worth (00:10:22) and it doesn't matter how many times (00:10:25) you know I I may show up in a positive (00:10:28) way at the beginning of Summer life at (00:10:30) the end of somebody else's life or any (00:10:32) time in between (00:10:33) it never fills that emptiness that my (00:10:36) sense of lack of worthiness creates (00:10:39) so that's one major shows up (00:10:41) another way it shows up is if (00:10:43) um in my relationship (00:10:46) I don't feel as satisfied (00:10:50) my wife doesn't (00:10:52) please me the way I like her too (00:10:55) um (00:10:56) then I get angry but why am I getting (00:10:59) angry (00:11:01) I'm getting angry because it's my sense (00:11:03) of not being good enough that's being (00:11:05) now revealed (00:11:07) it gets uncovered this this this this (00:11:09) this self-accusation (00:11:12) um but I get angry at her because her (00:11:14) job is to make me not feel that you know (00:11:16) we get into this relationship (00:11:19) four kinds of reasons some of them are (00:11:21) conscious some are not some are positive (00:11:24) some are come out of trauma in my case (00:11:27) I want that relationship to prove to me (00:11:29) how good I am (00:11:30) so when it isn't proving that then I get (00:11:32) upset with my partner you know well (00:11:34) except the Gap is inside me not inside (00:11:37) it's not coming from her so it shows up (00:11:41) it should have been my parenting it (00:11:43) shows up all over the place (00:11:45) I mean I think both of those examples (00:11:47) sound a lot like me especially the first (00:11:49) one yeah (00:11:50) um the second one as well but yeah what (00:11:52) sense in the sense that I I'm definitely (00:11:54) a workaholic and I thought I think in (00:11:57) the earlier phases of my life I like (00:11:58) sacrificed everything in this pursuit of (00:12:00) becoming a millionaire and and having (00:12:02) all this stuff and really getting this (00:12:03) validation sacrificed meaningful (00:12:06) connections everything in the pursuit of (00:12:07) this one thing well part of the toxicity (00:12:09) of the culture that I (00:12:11) talk about in this book is that it (00:12:14) actually rewards that kind of emptiness (00:12:15) or that or that desperate (00:12:18) seeking to to to to fill that emptiness (00:12:22) because because you know you get (00:12:24) rewarded you make a lot of money a lot (00:12:26) of people admire you you get to feel (00:12:29) good about yourself mind you my guess is (00:12:32) that good feeling is only temporary at (00:12:34) least if my example is any (00:12:36) guy that you know that feeling good (00:12:39) because somebody from the outside values (00:12:40) you it's only a temporary self for the (00:12:42) for the wound that's inside (00:12:44) but the world actually rewards it you (00:12:47) know so you're a workaholic doctor great (00:12:49) you make more money and all these people (00:12:50) respect you meanwhile you're holding (00:12:53) yourself on the on from the inside and (00:12:54) you're not available for your family you (00:12:56) know so that that's part of the (00:12:58) craziness of this culture and it's like (00:13:00) the it's like the hedonistic treadmill (00:13:01) in this in a sense because you just (00:13:03) never enough is never enough as you say (00:13:06) yeah so the last achievement needs to be (00:13:09) surpassed by a greater achievement for (00:13:11) me to get an applaud or a clap I've (00:13:14) never really made the connection that (00:13:15) the reason why I'm a workaholic is (00:13:16) because I am trying to prove to the (00:13:19) world that I'm enough but I think that (00:13:20) it's entirely true yeah so in your class (00:13:23) like like race and class in this Society (00:13:27) of inequality are certainly traumatic (00:13:29) potentially traumatic inputs as I (00:13:31) pointed in this book and you know to to (00:13:34) the degree that it affects people's (00:13:36) physiology you know but also then I (00:13:40) don't know your family version or what (00:13:42) kind of relationship you have with your (00:13:43) parents but there also may have been a (00:13:44) sense (00:13:45) like I got with my mom for you know (00:13:47) reasons and and for whatever it might (00:13:49) have happened in your family maybe you (00:13:51) got the sense as well that even in your (00:13:53) family origin you weren't (00:13:55) good enough somehow so my mum would (00:13:57) scream at my dad for like seven hours a (00:13:59) day my dad would just sit there okay and (00:14:01) so my early memories of like looking at (00:14:03) my mum and dad are this kind of (00:14:06) violent verbally not like physically (00:14:09) this incredibly stressful screaming one (00:14:12) person screaming at the other that's (00:14:13) what I remember but from reading what (00:14:15) you've written in this book and from (00:14:17) what you've said now (00:14:18) I actually might have learned (00:14:20) sort of learned to that I was the (00:14:23) problem to some degree your children (00:14:25) interpret it that way that's just the (00:14:27) whole point that's what I mean about (00:14:28) kids being narcissists that I don't mean (00:14:30) that in the negative sense I just I mean (00:14:33) actually they think it's all about them (00:14:34) so if your mother is unhappy (00:14:37) it's your fault (00:14:39) you know and you're not good enough (00:14:41) so then you have to go out there and (00:14:42) work to prove yourself to prove to the (00:14:44) world and to yourself that you're good (00:14:45) enough so that going back to your first (00:14:48) question about how these things show up (00:14:50) in our lives that's how they show up (00:14:54) and so 12 years old you you emigrate to (00:14:57) Vancouver yeah (00:14:59) um by 28 you joined the medical (00:15:01) profession yeah and you spend the next (00:15:04) 32 years roughly working in well at 28 I (00:15:07) went back to medical school actually I I (00:15:09) took a detour I was a high school (00:15:10) teacher for and (00:15:12) um and then I was 27 28 when I started (00:15:16) medical school at age 33 I think I began (00:15:19) my medical (00:15:20) career of 32 years and in those 33 years (00:15:24) what what was your practice what did you (00:15:26) specialize in what did you focus on (00:15:28) so I was a family physician (00:15:32) which meant I delivered a lot of babies (00:15:34) and I looked after people's problems (00:15:35) from beginning to the end of life I also (00:15:38) worked in palliative care I was the (00:15:40) director of a unit at the hospital which (00:15:43) looked after people with a terminal (00:15:44) disease (00:15:46) and I did (00:15:49) that was 22 years or so of my practice (00:15:51) 28 22 years (00:15:53) and then then I switched gears all (00:15:56) together and I went to work in the (00:15:58) downtown east side of Vancouver British (00:16:00) Columbia which is more North America's (00:16:02) most constantivated area of drug use we (00:16:04) have more (00:16:05) people coming from anywhere in the world (00:16:08) are shocked by what they see there are (00:16:09) thousands of people in the streets (00:16:11) injecting selling using inhaling (00:16:16) ingesting drugs of all kinds and people (00:16:18) have suffered the consequences of (00:16:21) drug use in a society that doesn't (00:16:23) understand drug use so it punishes it (00:16:25) and excludes it also sizes it so people (00:16:27) get HIV from Dirty needles and and (00:16:30) hepatitis C so (00:16:32) this is the population often they're (00:16:34) homeless so that's the population I (00:16:36) worked with for 12 years till the end of (00:16:39) my medical work (00:16:40) that experience working with patients (00:16:42) that were in palliative care so that's (00:16:45) for anybody that doesn't know that's (00:16:46) patients that are approaching the end of (00:16:47) their life that have terminal illnesses (00:16:49) and that are aware that they're going to (00:16:51) to die (00:16:52) what did that experience teach you (00:16:55) it took an acceptance of one's (00:16:59) lack of (00:17:01) lack of omnipotence as a physician (00:17:04) because you go into the you want to cure (00:17:05) people you want to you want people to (00:17:07) heal (00:17:08) and now it takes the tremendous (00:17:09) exceptions to say you know we've reached (00:17:11) the limit of our knowledge (00:17:13) and that doesn't mean we can't help (00:17:15) people but we certainly can't cure them (00:17:18) you know and so it taught me how to be (00:17:21) with the inevitable (00:17:23) and and and when you're working with (00:17:25) people who are (00:17:26) in the process of dying about I mean by (00:17:29) the way who isn't in the process of (00:17:30) dying you know but but people whose time (00:17:32) is more limited than the rest of us (00:17:35) acceptance you learn a lot of acceptance (00:17:38) it challenges you to do your best (00:17:41) when you know your best isn't going to (00:17:43) be saving anybody's lives but it's to (00:17:47) help people live a life of (00:17:50) as little suffering as possible and as (00:17:52) much dignity as possible (00:17:54) so it really challenges the best parts (00:17:56) of you to show up patience acceptance (00:18:00) um intuition personally taught me a lot (00:18:03) to listen to people interesting enough (00:18:06) people really want to be heard when (00:18:08) they're dying (00:18:10) they want to make sense of their lives (00:18:12) they want to tell their stories then I (00:18:14) want their stories to be heard (00:18:16) and so I listened a lot I just sat by (00:18:20) the bed so I don't know it isn't (00:18:21) and all that (00:18:23) when you listen did you (00:18:25) did you hear any themes relating to (00:18:27) regret or things that actually mattered (00:18:31) because I always imagine in if I was (00:18:33) given such news that my life was coming (00:18:35) to an end and there was an approximate (00:18:37) date it would be quite a powerful way of (00:18:40) finally realizing what truly matters and (00:18:42) what never did you know people who react (00:18:45) to their impending death in different (00:18:46) ways so there were some people who just (00:18:50) fought it to the end you know they (00:18:52) didn't really want to accept it but most (00:18:54) people (00:18:55) were more along the lines that you (00:18:57) describe where they really get to see (00:18:59) what's important and so I mentioned this (00:19:01) a number of times it sounds strange and (00:19:04) I don't recommend it but I've had (00:19:06) patients say to me doctor I don't know (00:19:08) how to tell you this and I can't even (00:19:09) explain it perhaps but this illness (00:19:11) that's going to take my life is the best (00:19:13) thing that have happened to me (00:19:15) and but by men they meant a couple of (00:19:17) things by it they meant what you just (00:19:19) said about finding out what's really (00:19:21) important in life in this book The Myth (00:19:23) of normal lying to you a young man (00:19:25) called Bill pie wrote a book called (00:19:27) blessed with a brain tumor (00:19:29) in a Hot Hog what kind of blessing is (00:19:32) that so I said I asked will what's the (00:19:34) blessing and he said it made me (00:19:37) appreciate every moment it meant every (00:19:39) time I talked to somebody this I knew (00:19:41) this might be the last conversation I'm (00:19:43) gonna have with them so it better be a (00:19:45) human genuine interaction (00:19:48) so there was that aspect of it the other (00:19:51) aspect of it was that (00:19:53) again my view is as I pointed in this (00:19:56) book and in previous Works who gets sick (00:19:58) and who doesn't isn't isn't exactly (00:20:00) accidental they were certainly (00:20:01) personally patterns based on traumatic (00:20:04) experiences in your childhood that make (00:20:06) disease more likely (00:20:07) and people very often realize that (00:20:10) throughout their lives they had (00:20:12) abandoned who they were they lived the (00:20:13) life that didn't wasn't meaningful for (00:20:15) them (00:20:16) and (00:20:17) are on that they reconnected with (00:20:19) themselves in an authentic way and that (00:20:21) seemed to be worth a lot to people (00:20:23) again I don't recommend that way of (00:20:25) going to reconnect with yourself but (00:20:28) people have certainly I certainly saw it (00:20:31) so those are the two big lessons (00:20:35) after your 33 years in medical practice (00:20:38) um you you described that you had a bit (00:20:41) of a you kind of tuned into a creative (00:20:43) calling which was writing well I began (00:20:46) to write when I was a physician so my (00:20:48) first book on ADHD after I was diagnosed (00:20:52) with it was published in 1999 now so (00:20:55) that was 23 years ago now so I began to (00:20:58) write and even before then I wrote (00:21:00) Because I wrote uh cons for newspapers (00:21:03) but yes there was a time in my life (00:21:06) where the writing impulse which had been (00:21:08) with me all my life was stifled and and (00:21:11) and and and (00:21:12) um stymied (00:21:14) and so was I because I had this (00:21:16) frustration in fact they had the sense (00:21:18) that there's something I needed to (00:21:19) express (00:21:21) but I didn't know what and they didn't (00:21:23) know how and at some point I realized oh (00:21:26) yeah I need to write so that began (00:21:28) before I finished medical practice but (00:21:30) it certainly (00:21:32) um (00:21:33) has been essential to my ongoing (00:21:36) unfolding as a human being (00:21:38) I was so compelled by that when I when I (00:21:40) read about that because um (00:21:42) I've started to really understand the (00:21:44) value of creativity in all of our Lives (00:21:46) regardless of whether we have the luxury (00:21:48) of being called an artist or not and so (00:21:51) what in your view is the importance of (00:21:54) well you're you're singing my tune here (00:21:56) if I may say it that way because (00:21:58) um I called in this book uh there's a (00:22:00) great Hungarian Canadian stress (00:22:03) researcher called Janus celi a c-l-y-e (00:22:06) and Celia is the one who actually coined (00:22:09) the word stress in the sense that we use (00:22:10) it today and he's the one that showed in (00:22:12) the laboratory how stress diminishes the (00:22:15) immune system and this this organizes (00:22:18) the hormones and and ulcerates the (00:22:20) stomach and all this kind of stuff but (00:22:23) so now you also said then I quote him (00:22:25) here what is in US must out what is in (00:22:28) us most out (00:22:30) that we all have to follow our key of (00:22:32) your urges in the way that nature (00:22:34) prepared for us otherwise we can be (00:22:36) hopeless hopelessly hemmed in by (00:22:38) frustration I'm paraphrasing him very (00:22:41) closely (00:22:42) so (00:22:45) we are created an image of God I mean as (00:22:47) you know what do religious views are but (00:22:51) that sense that we created an images of (00:22:53) God means that we are creators because (00:22:56) the essence of God is creation (00:22:58) in fact we call God the Creator and we (00:23:00) call the result of that creation (00:23:03) if we're created then if we're if we're (00:23:06) offshoots (00:23:07) of that creative dynamic in the universe (00:23:09) then it means that it's in us to create (00:23:11) and whatever form that takes I mean you (00:23:14) know you don't want to see me (00:23:17) do art you know unless you (00:23:20) I can do a pretty good stick figure you (00:23:22) know but but I'm married to a nurse (00:23:25) um (00:23:25) so that Community doesn't have to take (00:23:27) the form of formal art but it does it if (00:23:31) it takes some flow of something that's (00:23:33) inside you that needs to come out (00:23:35) otherwise as Celia says you get (00:23:38) hopelessly hemmed in by frustration and (00:23:40) so in that sense everybody's got that (00:23:42) creative urge and that may take the form (00:23:44) of social intercourse it might take the (00:23:46) form of gardening I don't care communion (00:23:48) with nature (00:23:51) athletic expression I don't care what (00:23:53) but it but but there's somebody (00:23:55) everybody's got it and if people don't (00:23:57) realize they have it it's only because (00:23:59) life is him demand and they're too busy (00:24:01) and sometimes they are trying to make a (00:24:03) living or trying to survive or too (00:24:05) disconnected from themselves but it's in (00:24:07) all of us and to the extent that we (00:24:09) don't give it expression we suffer (00:24:13) one of the things that really hems it in (00:24:15) is um (00:24:17) is the prospect that we might not be (00:24:20) good at it because we think to express (00:24:21) ourselves creatively we kind of join a (00:24:23) competition of sorts and that's that's a (00:24:25) trap we can fall into so if I'm gonna DJ (00:24:27) I need to become a good DJ yeah but in (00:24:30) Social comparison or else I don't want (00:24:31) to but what I've come to learn is in (00:24:33) fact the act of DJing alone in my (00:24:35) kitchen at midnight is is the reward (00:24:38) regardless of outcome or whether there's (00:24:40) a crowd there it's just me and my dog (00:24:42) listening that is the expression is the (00:24:44) reward not the achievement or the medal (00:24:46) that I might get although yeah not the (00:24:48) external well look look I went through (00:24:49) that in the writing in this book so here (00:24:51) I am this is you know (00:24:53) the writer who writes about you know (00:24:55) trauma and you know healing and all of a (00:24:57) sudden I'm in a panic because I'm (00:24:59) writing a book and I realize that the (00:25:01) problem was that you talked about (00:25:03) identifying with your work so I had (00:25:05) identified with this book so the problem (00:25:07) wasn't a book (00:25:09) because let's say I write the book and (00:25:11) it's not a success I mean okay big (00:25:13) headline in the Sunday Times book not a (00:25:16) big success you know like how big of a (00:25:18) deal is that in the history of the (00:25:20) universe (00:25:21) but if I identify with the book (00:25:23) and it's not going well then if the book (00:25:25) fails then I'm feeling as a person which (00:25:27) then goes back to my very earliest uh (00:25:30) concern about not being worth it you (00:25:32) know so once I disidentified (00:25:36) I said no this is just a book it may be (00:25:39) a good book it may be an important book (00:25:40) maybe a book that doesn't hit the mark (00:25:43) but it's only a book and how it goes (00:25:46) says nothing about me or my worth (00:25:49) once I could decouple that then I could (00:25:51) confidently and much more comfortably go (00:25:52) back to the writing of it but I went to (00:25:54) that crisis it seems like a bit of a (00:25:56) paradox that this the lack of self-worth (00:25:59) would would motivate someone to to (00:26:01) create great things because they want (00:26:02) the approval but at the same time make (00:26:04) the process so agonizing because their (00:26:06) self-esteem seems to be on the line yeah (00:26:08) all their sense of self-worth is on the (00:26:09) line (00:26:10) well that Dynamic was in me once I (00:26:12) realized that I let go of it you know so (00:26:14) it didn't it didn't dominate me in the (00:26:16) end and uh honest to God by the time I (00:26:18) finished the book (00:26:19) I'm not just saying this in retrospect (00:26:21) it's it's the best seller now in several (00:26:23) countries but (00:26:26) I actually said to myself and I meant it (00:26:28) now I've done the book (00:26:31) that's what matters (00:26:32) I've said what was in me to say (00:26:35) how the world reacts (00:26:37) I can't control and it doesn't actually (00:26:39) matter on a fundamental level it's not (00:26:41) that I don't want this book to be (00:26:43) accessed I mean success of course I (00:26:45) wanted to sell 10 zillion copies but (00:26:49) that doesn't Define my self-worth or a (00:26:52) high function in the world how I feel (00:26:53) about myself honestly it does not and I (00:26:55) I understood that by the time I finished (00:26:57) working on it (00:26:59) so once it's done it's out there doing (00:27:02) its work or not doing its work (00:27:06) but I don't have to hang my own sense of (00:27:10) self on how the book does (00:27:13) because at that point that's an outcome (00:27:14) you can't control right so trying to (00:27:16) control that would be yeah anxiety and (00:27:18) yeah oh yeah well you can't control it (00:27:21) no (00:27:22) 10 years this book yeah took you to (00:27:25) write took me to prepare it took about (00:27:28) three years to write yeah you describe (00:27:30) it as a calling yeah the myth of normal (00:27:34) yeah what four words to to sort of pull (00:27:39) people into in some way summarize uh 550 (00:27:42) odd page book why why those four words (00:27:45) why that phrase (00:27:46) can I post from one to find a quote on (00:27:49) my cell phone 100 yeah yeah I just (00:27:52) so this is um are you familiar with the (00:27:55) rokovic artoli uh Echo totally yes okay (00:27:58) yeah so Tony lives in Vancouver like I (00:28:00) do and um in one of his books he says (00:28:02) the normal State of Mind of most human (00:28:05) beings contains a strong element of what (00:28:07) we might call dysfunction or even (00:28:10) Madness you know so (00:28:13) um in medical (00:28:15) um parlance uh normal means healthy and (00:28:17) natural so there's a normal range of (00:28:19) blood pressure (00:28:20) normal (00:28:22) temperature it's a range outside that (00:28:25) range there's no life there's no health (00:28:27) either too high or too low you're gone (00:28:30) so normal means it's it's equivalent (00:28:35) with synonymous with healthy and natural (00:28:39) however we make that same assumption (00:28:42) that the audience Society what we used (00:28:45) to what we call normal is also healthy (00:28:48) and natural which is a myth because I'm (00:28:51) saying that in this Society what we (00:28:53) considered to be normal is neither (00:28:54) healthy nor natural in fact it's hurtful (00:28:57) to us so that we're using the word (00:28:59) normal (00:29:00) in in a way that (00:29:03) doesn't apply (00:29:05) in the narrow medical sense (00:29:08) it's accurate but in a broader sense (00:29:10) that which we're used to in this Society (00:29:12) be considered normal is just not good (00:29:15) for us you know and Norm is kind of a (00:29:17) statistic or it's a kind of a (00:29:20) um average so if everybody you have a (00:29:22) dog if everybody in London mistreated (00:29:25) their dogs and if you didn't then you'd (00:29:28) be abnormal you know so it's a myth to (00:29:33) say that what is normal is healthy and (00:29:35) natural that's what I mean by the method (00:29:36) normal that's one one thing I mean the (00:29:38) other thing I mean is (00:29:40) if we understand that the actual science (00:29:43) of the unity of everything I'm not (00:29:45) talking about spiritual Insight here I'm (00:29:47) talking about you know physiological (00:29:49) science that are physiology and (00:29:52) psychology is very much affected by our (00:29:54) life experiences being in utero (00:29:57) childbirth early childhood and (00:29:59) throughout the lifetime (00:30:01) it also follows that illness and health (00:30:03) are not individual attributes they're (00:30:05) actually manifestations of our (00:30:06) relationships and our situation in the (00:30:09) world and and our history (00:30:12) that also means when the circumstances (00:30:15) are abnormal (00:30:16) you expect people to be sick (00:30:19) you know just as if (00:30:20) you gave animals something that wasn't (00:30:22) healthy for them they'd be sick that'd (00:30:24) be what you'd expect (00:30:26) so (00:30:28) this idea that the people who are ill (00:30:30) either physically or mentally abnormal I (00:30:32) say no these are normal responses to an (00:30:35) abnormal set of circumstances (00:30:38) and (00:30:39) rather than being sort of those abnormal (00:30:42) ones and the rest of us it's really a (00:30:44) spectrum they were all pretty much all (00:30:47) on it so in those three senses this idea (00:30:50) of normal is is a myth and it's one that (00:30:54) keeps us from (00:30:56) seeing reality (00:30:59) and we're all an abnormal in some way (00:31:02) yeah so if you maybe my maybe my (00:31:05) attention is different maybe my you know (00:31:07) my my interpersonal relationships are (00:31:09) abnormal but in some way I'm going to be (00:31:11) abnormal as it relates to treatments how (00:31:13) do you think that the medical profession (00:31:14) and the psychological profession would (00:31:17) respond differently if we removed this (00:31:20) idea that there is a normal how would (00:31:23) our approaches change to treating people (00:31:24) hmm (00:31:26) well that's (00:31:29) it's a multi-layered answer (00:31:32) um first of all we would recognize that (00:31:34) our diagnoses are not explanations for (00:31:37) anything (00:31:38) so you know I've been diagnosed with ADD (00:31:41) you know legitimately so as my first (00:31:44) book was on it (00:31:45) um (00:31:47) but but it doesn't explain anything (00:31:50) so so I do not easily very easily you (00:31:54) know and sometimes when I don't often (00:31:56) and I don't want to but you know (00:31:59) unless I'm highly motivated (00:32:02) so so you might say this person has ADD (00:32:05) how do we know because he Tunes out a (00:32:06) lot (00:32:08) why is it doing a lot this is (00:32:11) because it turns out a lot so so first (00:32:14) of all we have to understand that our (00:32:16) understanding of normal and what's (00:32:18) outside the normal they don't doesn't (00:32:20) explain anything (00:32:21) they can they can describe if you (00:32:25) describe my mental functioning as that (00:32:27) of somebody who's got an automatic (00:32:29) tendency to tune out you'd be accurate (00:32:32) so the description (00:32:34) it's helpful as an explanation as to why (00:32:36) this person isn't behaving quote unquote (00:32:38) normally (00:32:40) it doesn't explain anything not if you (00:32:42) understood (00:32:43) that I spent my infancy (00:32:45) under very difficult circumstances where (00:32:48) I was very stressed because of all the (00:32:50) stuff I already talked about and that (00:32:52) tuning out was a normal response (00:32:56) to to those circumstances as a way of (00:32:58) protecting myself from the stress of it (00:33:00) all and this is happening when my brain (00:33:02) was developing (00:33:04) then you understand there's nothing (00:33:05) abnormal about by tuning out in fact it (00:33:08) is the normal response to a set of (00:33:10) abnormal circumstances (00:33:13) so that's the first point and I could go (00:33:15) through the same kind of dialectic with (00:33:18) all manner of physical and mental (00:33:20) diseases by the way so-called (00:33:23) the (00:33:24) second point is why do you say so-called (00:33:29) um (00:33:31) well look the disease model is (00:33:34) as long as we understand it's a model (00:33:36) it's okay and we think it describes (00:33:40) reality fully it doesn't so (00:33:44) um (00:33:46) for example (00:33:48) um because you talk about mental (00:33:50) illnesses (00:33:52) and we're assuming that there's a kind (00:33:54) of definite pathology there just as in (00:33:57) rheumatoid arthritis you can describe (00:33:59) the inflammation of the joints and (00:34:02) the blood levels of certain antibodies (00:34:04) being abnormal and (00:34:08) hormonal levels being disturbed you know (00:34:13) we're making the same assumption in (00:34:15) mental illness there's no such evidence (00:34:17) in mental illness there's no (00:34:19) physiological parameters that you can (00:34:21) say somebody's got mental illness (00:34:23) there's just been a study a few months (00:34:25) ago of thousands of band scans (00:34:28) of people with mental illness diagnosis (00:34:31) there's nothing diagnostic about them (00:34:32) about the brain scans it's not like I (00:34:35) can take an x-ray of a lung and say that (00:34:37) this is this lung is got what we call (00:34:40) consolidation or or fluid indicating (00:34:43) inflammation (00:34:45) there's nothing like that and mental (00:34:46) diagnosis there's no blood test you can (00:34:49) do and so on so illness (00:34:51) is a is is a (00:34:54) is a model I mean it might (00:34:56) yeah somebody's really depressed (00:34:59) even suicidal perhaps and they might (00:35:02) need pharmacological Intervention which (00:35:04) will really save their lives that may be (00:35:06) 1 (00:35:09) and in that sense you may say that (00:35:11) they're ill (00:35:12) as long as we realize that this is a (00:35:14) construct that we're applying here but (00:35:15) there is no actual measurement of that (00:35:18) that's at all similar to what we call (00:35:21) physical disease (00:35:23) but even a physical disease we make (00:35:25) certain assumptions (00:35:27) um for example somebody has rheumatoid (00:35:30) arthritis no (00:35:33) that nothing wrong with that statement (00:35:35) on the face of it but there's an (00:35:37) assumption there (00:35:38) the assumption is that there's this (00:35:40) thing called rheumatoid arthritis (00:35:42) and there's this person called me and (00:35:45) this person has this thing no you know (00:35:48) the example I often give here's my cell (00:35:49) phone I'm holding it in my head I have a (00:35:51) cell phone it's not part of me it says (00:35:53) nothing about me it just it's a discrete (00:35:56) object its nature doesn't depend on my (00:35:58) nature (00:35:59) nothing (00:36:03) is that true about rheumatoid arthritis (00:36:05) or is it more true to say as I found out (00:36:07) that this is a condition that shows up (00:36:09) in people with certain life experiences (00:36:12) and certain ways of functioning in the (00:36:14) world and that because of the science (00:36:17) document the unity of mind and body and (00:36:20) the (00:36:21) impossibility of separating the activity (00:36:23) or emotional apparatus from seeing our (00:36:26) immune system because it's all one (00:36:28) organismic unit (00:36:30) therefore the when the immune system (00:36:33) turns against the body as it does in (00:36:35) rheumatoid arthritis damage system (00:36:36) actually attacks the body (00:36:39) is that a thing that's got a life of its (00:36:42) own or is it a process that's happening (00:36:44) inside that person because of certain (00:36:46) aspects of their lives (00:36:48) now if I say it's a thing that happens (00:36:50) to you then that thing has got a life of (00:36:52) its own and that's why most doctors see (00:36:54) it they see somebody with rheumatoid (00:36:56) arthritis they say okay this is the kind (00:36:57) you've got this is what's going to (00:36:59) happen this is this is the only thing we (00:37:01) can do is this is to mitigate the (00:37:03) symptoms (00:37:04) I find that's not true I find that the (00:37:06) rumor that by them not just I find it (00:37:08) the science finds it that rheumatoid (00:37:11) arthritis is very much related to stress (00:37:14) and Trauma and the more stress there is (00:37:16) the more likely it is to flare up and if (00:37:18) people deal with that stress if they (00:37:20) know how to prevent it their illness (00:37:22) abates (00:37:24) which means that it's not a thing that's (00:37:26) separate it's a process that happens (00:37:28) inside them (00:37:29) this is a subtle concept though I'm (00:37:31) wondering if I'm explaining it clearly (00:37:32) no you are and it's really making me (00:37:34) question how much we misunderstand the (00:37:37) relationship between the mind and the (00:37:38) immune system yeah because (00:37:41) that's the real that's the important (00:37:43) connection to understand if you if you (00:37:44) are to accept all the things you've just (00:37:46) said yeah which we don't we don't (00:37:48) understand I don't think typically we (00:37:49) understand that my mind and my immune (00:37:51) system have such a close relationship (00:37:53) well the the there's a whole new science (00:37:56) that studies those relationships it's (00:37:58) called psychoneuraminology which studies (00:38:01) the interlinked unity of the emotional (00:38:04) apparatus of our brain and body with the (00:38:06) immune system with the nervous system (00:38:07) and with the hormonal apparatus I mean (00:38:10) it's just so obvious (00:38:12) I could change your hormonal state in (00:38:15) this fifth second right now without (00:38:17) touching you just by screaming at you (00:38:19) and threatening you that would (00:38:21) necessarily create a change I mean it's (00:38:23) just clear their emotions are (00:38:25) inseparable you know and and the other (00:38:26) funny thing is well several funny things (00:38:30) how do we treat most conditions in (00:38:32) Medicine by the way inflammations if you (00:38:34) go to a dermatologist with the infinite (00:38:36) skin (00:38:37) if you go to a rheumatologist with (00:38:38) inflamed joints you should go to a (00:38:40) gastroenterologist with inflamed (00:38:42) intestines (00:38:43) if you go to a respirologist with (00:38:46) inflamed lungs if you go to a (00:38:49) neurologist with the inflamed nervous (00:38:50) system is in multiple sclerosis they're (00:38:52) going to give you steroids (00:38:55) the steadily inflammation the water (00:38:57) steroids they are stress hormones (00:39:00) and you would think that as Physicians (00:39:02) we would ask ourselves gosh we're (00:39:05) treating everything with stress hormones (00:39:07) the stress maybe have something to do (00:39:08) with this condition (00:39:10) then when you look at the scientific (00:39:11) literature yes yes and yes so the (00:39:17) um there's a Great Canadian physician (00:39:18) actually United by Queen Victoria one of (00:39:21) the great medical teachers of all kinds (00:39:22) Sir William Osler and he said in 1890 (00:39:25) that rheumatoid aristritis is a stressed (00:39:27) during disease (00:39:29) the the French uh neurologist Jean Matan (00:39:32) charcoal who first described multiple (00:39:34) sclerosis he said this is a stress (00:39:37) driven condition (00:39:39) and since then there's been so much (00:39:40) research (00:39:41) so (00:39:43) what I'm saying is that this this way of (00:39:45) looking at (00:39:46) what we call disease is a process (00:39:49) is so much more accurate scientifically (00:39:51) actually and understanding the Mind Body (00:39:53) unity and then you know naturally when (00:39:56) people are traumatized that has a huge (00:39:58) impact on their physiology their (00:40:00) psychological trauma is a huge impact on (00:40:02) their physiology it's just science (00:40:05) but its science that's not taught to (00:40:06) Medical teach medical uh doctors it's (00:40:09) just for some strange reason well the (00:40:12) average physician never hears a single (00:40:14) lecture about say trauma and his (00:40:16) relationship to illness and yet the (00:40:18) studies internationally thousands of (00:40:20) them (00:40:21) showing those relationships (00:40:23) so there's this strange gap between (00:40:25) science and and medical practice but it (00:40:28) would it would change medical practice (00:40:29) for the better (00:40:32) because what would happen if you went to (00:40:34) a physician and and you presented with (00:40:36) your symptom and they'd say okay look (00:40:38) we'll give you such as medication to (00:40:40) deal with your symptoms and then let's (00:40:42) look at your life (00:40:44) in the context that you live it and see (00:40:46) how that the stresses that you may be (00:40:48) taking on the traumas you may be (00:40:50) carrying might be affecting the (00:40:52) physiology of your body (00:40:54) no they don't have to be all trauma (00:40:56) therapists to do that they just have to (00:40:58) raise the question (00:41:00) and they start and then to begin the (00:41:02) inquiry that'll make a huge change to (00:41:04) that person's life and to their disease (00:41:06) process (00:41:08) and clearly to their kids lives as well (00:41:09) because I remember reading in your book (00:41:11) about the uh the study with the rats (00:41:14) yeah (00:41:15) um and how they could you tell me about (00:41:17) that study how the stress study with the (00:41:18) rats and how the parents (00:41:20) um treatment of a child (00:41:22) impacted their stress response and then (00:41:24) also they passed that on which I thought (00:41:26) was yeah that was a very interesting (00:41:27) study it was done in Canada (00:41:28) um at McGill University (00:41:31) um I think maybe something in the last (00:41:33) 20 years (00:41:34) early 2000s I think (00:41:36) and they looked at her mother rats (00:41:39) interacted with their infants their (00:41:42) newborns and some and this is a process (00:41:45) called grooming (00:41:46) in which the mother rad licks the infant (00:41:49) earned apparent very uh perennial a (00:41:52) perineal area you know in the genitalia (00:41:54) this is shortly after birth this mother (00:41:57) rats you start licking their infants (00:41:59) some other rest did it in a more (00:42:01) efficient and caring kind of way than (00:42:03) other mother rats (00:42:06) those that had the better kind of caring (00:42:09) the better kind of grooming go to be (00:42:11) calmer (00:42:13) and responded to stress in more (00:42:15) functional ways than those little rats (00:42:18) who (00:42:20) as neonates had not been given that same (00:42:23) kind of (00:42:24) efficient and quite as caring grooming (00:42:29) foreign (00:42:32) the brains of those adult rats who had (00:42:35) been groomed one way or the other as (00:42:38) infants the stressed apparatus was (00:42:40) different certain receptors for the (00:42:41) stress hormones so one of them could (00:42:43) call themselves more easily than the (00:42:44) other (00:42:46) what was interesting is you might say (00:42:48) well that she's genetic the calmer (00:42:50) mothers passed on their genes to the (00:42:52) infants no they didn't because if you (00:42:54) took the infants of mothers who groomed (00:42:56) beautifully and put them with mothers (00:42:59) who didn't and conversely it took the (00:43:01) infant Rats of mothers who (00:43:03) didn't groom so well but you put them (00:43:06) with mothers who did (00:43:08) they change it changed the brain for the (00:43:11) adult it changed the brain it changed (00:43:14) the genetic functioning not the genes (00:43:15) okay but the genetic functioning this is (00:43:17) called epigenetics how genes are turned (00:43:20) on and off by the environment and then (00:43:22) those mother and those rats who are (00:43:25) going well as infants doesn't matter (00:43:27) what the original mother was but those (00:43:30) are actually going well they went on to (00:43:32) groom their infants (00:43:34) in exactly the way they had been groomed (00:43:36) so this is how we passed on our (00:43:37) parenting stuff (00:43:39) from one generation to the next both (00:43:41) behaviorally but also through the (00:43:43) turning on or off of certain genes (00:43:46) so in essence the how nurturing our (00:43:48) parents were has a big impact on our own (00:43:51) ability to handle stress positively or (00:43:54) negatively oh absolutely and then we (00:43:56) passed that down I stressed up answer (00:43:57) how they reacted to her own stress as (00:44:00) infants you know that has everything to (00:44:03) do with her brains handle stress later (00:44:05) on (00:44:06) and so some people just don't handle (00:44:08) stress very well they don't handle a (00:44:09) frustration very well (00:44:11) you should have seen me this morning at (00:44:12) the hotel when the swimming pool didn't (00:44:14) open in time you know (00:44:17) but I I was a lot better than it might (00:44:19) have been years ago you know uh but yeah (00:44:21) our stress responses are very much (00:44:23) programmed by our early uh developmental (00:44:25) experiences (00:44:28) speaking about our early experience is (00:44:29) the first word in the sort of subtitle (00:44:31) of your book is the word trauma (00:44:33) um it's a word that I've I've talked (00:44:35) about a lot on this podcast and I've you (00:44:36) know I've had a lot of people here that (00:44:37) have opened up about their traumas how (00:44:39) do you define trauma I know Society has (00:44:41) defined it in its own way but how do you (00:44:42) define it the word (00:44:45) I I Define it very specifically (00:44:48) um it's not something bad that happens (00:44:49) to you it's not some no it's not that (00:44:52) you know I went to this movie last night (00:44:54) and I was traumatized no you weren't you (00:44:56) were just sad or you were had some (00:44:58) emotional pain but you weren't (00:44:59) traumatized (00:45:01) trauma means a wound that's the literal (00:45:03) meaning of the word it's a Greek word (00:45:04) for wounding so trauma is a (00:45:06) psychological wound that you sustain (00:45:09) and um it behaves like a wound so on the (00:45:12) one hand (00:45:13) everyone if it's very raw if you touch (00:45:16) it it just really hurts so if I have a (00:45:19) wound around not being wanted (00:45:22) then (00:45:23) or the belief that I'm not (00:45:25) then decades later if anything reminds (00:45:28) me of that it hurts as much as it did (00:45:31) when I originally incured the wound (00:45:33) so in in one sense trauma is an unhealed (00:45:35) wound that touched we get triggered (00:45:37) that's what triggering means by the way (00:45:39) some old wound gets activated or touched (00:45:42) and the other thing that happens to (00:45:44) wounds is that they scar over and Scar (00:45:47) Tissue has certain characteristics it's (00:45:49) thick (00:45:50) it has no nerve ending so there's no (00:45:52) feeling in it so people traumatize (00:45:54) disconnected from their feelings (00:45:57) um Sky tissue is rigid it's not flexible (00:45:59) so we lose kind of response flexibility (00:46:02) so when something happens we tend to (00:46:04) react in typical stereotypical (00:46:06) predictable (00:46:08) dysfunctional ways because of the (00:46:10) rigidity and Scar Tissue doesn't grow (00:46:13) like healthy flesh so people are (00:46:15) traumatized tend to be stuck in (00:46:17) emotional states that characterized (00:46:21) their development when they were (00:46:23) traumatized so when somebody says to you (00:46:25) don't miss such a baby uh (00:46:28) doesn't sound very pleasant but there's (00:46:30) some truth to it it means that you're (00:46:32) probably reacting according to the lines (00:46:34) of someone that you sustained as an (00:46:36) infant and now you're you're reacting as (00:46:38) if that wound was happening all over (00:46:40) again this is what one of my friends in (00:46:43) the trauma World Peter Levine calls the (00:46:44) attorney of the past (00:46:46) so something happens in the present (00:46:48) and we react (00:46:51) as if we're back there in the past when (00:46:53) this first happened (00:46:55) and we're not in the present moment at (00:46:57) all (00:46:57) and I was I was trying to figure out how (00:46:59) many people (00:47:00) um as a percentage of the population (00:47:02) have a (00:47:03) have trauma but then I I you know I read (00:47:06) this stat with 60 of adults um say that (00:47:08) they've had sort of a traumatic early (00:47:10) upbringing or whatever or traumatic (00:47:12) events from their childhood but then I (00:47:13) thought maybe everybody has trauma (00:47:15) it depends on um how we understand (00:47:17) trauma so if we understand trauma is (00:47:21) only the really terrible things that (00:47:22) happen to people which do happen to (00:47:24) people you know in the book I talked (00:47:27) about a British friend of mine but not (00:47:29) living in Canada (00:47:31) um they are a yoga teacher and a (00:47:33) meditation teacher and a psychologist (00:47:37) and an artist actually and they grew up (00:47:40) in some orphanage here in Britain where (00:47:42) they were racially taunted every every (00:47:44) morning you know words that are in the (00:47:46) book by her permission which I'm not (00:47:48) going to cite here publicly (00:47:50) and that gave her a sense of deficient a (00:47:52) sense of self that I'm just not good (00:47:54) enough that I don't belong and so on (00:47:55) there's those obvious traumas or the (00:47:58) obvious trauma of being sexually abused (00:48:00) so men who are sexually abused according (00:48:03) to Canadian study have tripled the rate (00:48:05) of heart attacks as adults you know and (00:48:07) all kinds of physiological reasons well (00:48:09) that should be the case so there's those (00:48:13) self-evident Lord big tea traumas that (00:48:16) we call Big tea terminal Cat TV the (00:48:18) capital T trauma with the capital T (00:48:21) there's a certain percentage of the (00:48:23) population much larger than we think (00:48:24) subject to that if you include (00:48:27) um All the known factors such as (00:48:30) physical sexual or emotional abuse (00:48:32) spanking by the way has not been shown (00:48:35) to be as traumatic as harsher forms of (00:48:38) physical abuse spanking which is still (00:48:40) recommended by so-called experts who (00:48:43) should be named remain unnamed for the (00:48:46) moment uh the death of a parent the (00:48:49) violence in a Family Violence parental (00:48:51) violence against each other a parent (00:48:54) being jailed (00:48:55) depending mentally ill (00:48:57) did I say apparent being addicted a (00:48:59) rancor's divorce these are the (00:49:01) identified Big traumas Big T traumas no (00:49:03) not to mention poverty (00:49:05) not to mention extreme inequality (00:49:08) war and so on (00:49:10) but then (00:49:13) if you remember that trauma is not what (00:49:15) happens to you but what happens inside (00:49:16) you (00:49:18) this is the wound people can be wounded (00:49:20) not just by bad things happening to them (00:49:22) but small children can be wounded (00:49:25) in loving families (00:49:28) where they don't get their knees met (00:49:31) I mean that's obvious in the physical (00:49:32) sense if a child doesn't get proper (00:49:34) nutrition (00:49:36) their body will suffer their mind will (00:49:38) suffer (00:49:40) we're also creatures with the emotional (00:49:42) needs as important as our physical needs (00:49:45) so when the child's emotional needs are (00:49:47) not met that child is wounded and that's (00:49:49) what we call small tea trauma which is (00:49:51) not the big ticket events such as I (00:49:53) described but just the child's need to (00:49:56) be loved unconditionally to be held when (00:49:59) distressed to be responded to to be seen (00:50:02) to be heard to be allowed their full (00:50:06) range of emotion without them being (00:50:08) stamped on in the name of so-called (00:50:11) discipline (00:50:12) [Music] (00:50:12) um (00:50:13) the right to play (00:50:15) creatively (00:50:17) spontaneously out there in nature not (00:50:19) with these damn digital the gadgets that (00:50:22) subvert and hijacked the child's (00:50:25) imagination (00:50:26) but spontaneous Play That's essential (00:50:28) for band development (00:50:30) so what I'm saying is that when these (00:50:32) needs are not for the (00:50:34) unconditional loving attachment (00:50:36) relationship when those needs are (00:50:38) frustrated children are also hurt and I (00:50:40) call that trauma as well because it (00:50:42) shows up later in life as the impact of (00:50:44) painful wounds (00:50:47) so drama in this Society for all kinds (00:50:50) of reasons is far more common than we (00:50:51) imagined from sitting here and speaking (00:50:54) to I don't know somewhere over 100 (00:50:56) different people that come from all (00:50:57) walks of life but specifically people (00:50:59) that are successful in their Industries (00:51:00) and you talked about you know (00:51:02) how (00:51:04) um an anomalous early upbringing can (00:51:06) create sort of abnormality in an adult a (00:51:09) lot of the people I sit here are (00:51:10) successful because of some kind of (00:51:12) abnormality or at least their (00:51:13) interpretation of some kind of early (00:51:15) event that caused them to have some sort (00:51:18) of abnormal belief about themselves that (00:51:19) they're not enough so they become a (00:51:20) billionaire or a gold medalist or (00:51:22) whatever it might be yeah one of the (00:51:24) things that I thought I could predict is (00:51:26) I thought I could if they told me I (00:51:28) thought after doing 100 episodes if they (00:51:30) told me the traumatic event they'd been (00:51:31) through I could predict the the outcome (00:51:34) in them but there's a disconnect there (00:51:37) because you know I'd sit here with a (00:51:39) guest who went through one of your tall (00:51:41) um capital T traumas like domestic (00:51:43) violence and one of them might become (00:51:47) incredibly angry yeah and one of them (00:51:50) might become the most peaceful loving (00:51:51) person I've ever met yeah and that (00:51:54) taught me that there's this thing in (00:51:56) between the event which is what you call (00:51:58) interpretation yeah and I found that (00:52:00) really I found that as that kind of (00:52:02) makes it really difficult to diagnose (00:52:03) well no look so the two examples you (00:52:05) gave (00:52:06) um (00:52:07) that really peaceful person may be (00:52:10) really peaceful for genuinely good (00:52:12) reasons such as they've found the milk (00:52:15) of human love flowing through their (00:52:16) veins and they've had some spiritual (00:52:18) reconciliation with the world where they (00:52:21) may have lit genuinely learned (00:52:22) compassion for themselves and others but (00:52:25) they could also be very nice and (00:52:26) peaceful because they're suppressing (00:52:27) their healthy anger (00:52:29) because they're actually sitting on (00:52:31) their rage unconsciously which is going (00:52:34) to show up in a form of some kind of (00:52:36) Health manifestation I guarantee you (00:52:38) later on so you can't tell from the (00:52:40) outside (00:52:41) without asking some questions uh or I (00:52:44) can give you the example of a Donald (00:52:46) Trump (00:52:47) who (00:52:48) had a really traumatic childhood I mean (00:52:51) his father was a this as described by (00:52:53) his psychologist niece Mary Trump his (00:52:56) father Trump's father who is Mary's (00:52:59) grandfather (00:53:01) was a psychopath (00:53:03) and who really demeaned and harshly (00:53:07) treated their children (00:53:09) so Trump decides unconsciously (00:53:12) that by the way I'm not talking about (00:53:14) his policies here I'm not this is not a (00:53:16) political debate and in the book I point (00:53:18) out that his opponent was also (00:53:20) traumatized uh Hillary Clinton said this (00:53:22) is this is a uh ecumenical uh view of (00:53:26) trauma and politics and not choosing (00:53:27) sides I'm just saying that you can see (00:53:30) his trauma in every moment he opens his (00:53:31) mouth (00:53:32) his grandiosities need to make himself (00:53:34) bigger more powerful aggressive and eat (00:53:36) as much as said in his autobiography (00:53:38) that the world is a horrible place a (00:53:41) doggy dog place where everybody was (00:53:43) after you everybody wants your wife and (00:53:45) your house and your wealth and this is (00:53:48) your friends (00:53:49) never mind your enemies but that's the (00:53:51) world he lives in though that world that (00:53:52) he lives in reflects his childhood home (00:53:54) he developed that world you (00:53:56) he came to it honestly you might say (00:53:58) because that's the world that he lived (00:54:00) in (00:54:02) and he gets to be really successful in (00:54:04) this crazy world (00:54:05) you know financially although people (00:54:08) question you know was he really as big a (00:54:11) success as he says he was but he (00:54:13) certainly was successful politically if (00:54:15) by success you mean the attainment of (00:54:16) power (00:54:18) his brother on the other hand Mary (00:54:21) Trump's father Trump's niece's father (00:54:25) drag himself to death (00:54:27) and they were both responses to the same (00:54:30) you can never say it's exactly the same (00:54:32) for two kids but there was that there (00:54:34) was a toxic home environment one ends up (00:54:36) dead as an alcoholic (00:54:39) the other ends up at the Pinnacle of (00:54:40) power (00:54:43) um (00:54:44) and when I look at them both (00:54:46) I see dysfunction there significant (00:54:48) dysfunction here (00:54:50) so one of the one of those the (00:54:52) consequences of that early upbringing (00:54:54) was it materialized itself as sort of (00:54:55) addiction (00:54:57) and the other got the same psychological (00:55:00) reinforcement or the thing missing from (00:55:02) power and work and money (00:55:05) Donald Trump learned that the way to (00:55:08) survive is to be aggressive and harsh (00:55:09) and competitive and to get the other (00:55:11) before they get to you (00:55:12) which is a faithful reproduction of his (00:55:14) early childhood experiences so for him (00:55:18) these were not choices so much as (00:55:21) survival (00:55:23) techniques and (00:55:26) uh when they talk about his (00:55:29) lying (00:55:30) well (00:55:32) I don't know when he's lying or when (00:55:34) he's not but my sense is that often he (00:55:36) actually believes what he's saying and (00:55:38) actually he's a biographer or the person (00:55:40) who (00:55:42) co-wrote his (00:55:44) cause the autobiographical the art of (00:55:47) the deal this this writer says that he's (00:55:50) never met anybody who is so capable of (00:55:52) believing something that's not true to (00:55:54) be true if he wants it to be true (00:55:56) now that's the mark of a traumatized (00:55:58) child (00:55:59) you know a denial of reality (00:56:02) it is an inauguration there was a (00:56:05) certain number of people that came today (00:56:08) he couldn't stand it that there weren't (00:56:10) as many people there as came to Barack (00:56:13) Obama's (00:56:14) inauguration they were much smaller (00:56:16) number of people there (00:56:18) he created this reality where many more (00:56:20) people came to his inauguration (00:56:22) now what age behavior is that (00:56:25) that's a four-year-old but more kids (00:56:27) came to his party than my party that (00:56:29) can't be true (00:56:30) but that's Donald's way of dealing with (00:56:32) reality (00:56:34) it's not a moral failing as such that's (00:56:37) how he survived (00:56:39) and these survival (00:56:40) mechanisms for them get to form our (00:56:43) personalities and again in this world (00:56:47) sometimes they pay off (00:56:49) in certain ways (00:56:52) is that is that often the case with (00:56:53) pathological lies they've learned to lie (00:56:56) as a way to survive oh absolutely the (00:56:58) the German philosopher writer Nichi (00:57:01) Friedrich Nietzsche said people lie (00:57:03) their way out of reality who have been (00:57:05) hurt by reality (00:57:07) and so I've lied you know like when I (00:57:11) had my shopping addiction I relied Every (00:57:14) Day to my wife (00:57:15) you know and even afterwards when she (00:57:18) tried when she stopped trying to change (00:57:20) my behavior (00:57:21) I said just tell me (00:57:24) if you're going to show up you're going (00:57:25) to spend another thousand dollars on (00:57:27) music just tell me (00:57:30) I still couldn't (00:57:32) because (00:57:34) I was so ashamed of it and so the lying (00:57:37) became like a (00:57:39) a way of survival for me defense against (00:57:42) reality it's a defense against reality (00:57:44) and is the defense against (00:57:46) um being judged (00:57:47) you know well that says something about (00:57:50) my childhood you know nobody's born a (00:57:52) liar as we say in this book there are (00:57:55) congenial Liars but there are no (00:57:56) congenital Liars no one day old baby (00:57:59) tells any lies no wonder your baby (00:58:01) pretends anything if we end up (00:58:04) pretending in any way at all to the (00:58:06) extent that we do it's because we have (00:58:08) to learn that's what we must do to (00:58:10) survive (00:58:12) you said something at the start when I (00:58:14) gave the example that I have this I sat (00:58:16) with a guest here who went through (00:58:17) domestic abuse yeah and they are the (00:58:19) calmest person and then you said well (00:58:21) maybe they're suppressing it and in fact (00:58:23) the minute you said that it reminded me (00:58:25) of something they said which is they (00:58:26) they said to me on this podcast that (00:58:29) they had (00:58:30) um angry outbursts all the time (00:58:33) so sometimes their child will come up to (00:58:35) them yeah (00:58:36) um and want to play when they're working (00:58:38) and they'll snap yeah and they're trying (00:58:41) to they're trying to deal with that yeah (00:58:43) that's what I meant that they're sitting (00:58:44) on this (00:58:46) um (00:58:46) creator of volcanic crater of anger (00:58:50) which sometimes bursts out of them so (00:58:52) their their demeanor is like a really (00:58:56) developed suppressed (00:59:00) um way of handling rage (00:59:02) which rage when they were children had (00:59:05) they expressed would have got them into (00:59:07) more trouble so suppressing it (00:59:09) repressing it (00:59:11) became their survival it's all about (00:59:13) survival you see so it became their (00:59:15) survival mechanism no (00:59:18) that person as long as they keep it that (00:59:21) way they're (00:59:23) at risk (00:59:24) their risk for mental health diagnosis (00:59:27) like depression (00:59:29) because what what is depression it means (00:59:31) you're pushing something down that's (00:59:33) what it means what to be pushed down (00:59:36) our natural emotions why do we push them (00:59:38) down because we have to to survive so (00:59:40) that that person I don't 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(01:01:46) expressing one's emotions and something (01:01:48) you've talked about in this book but (01:01:49) also previously is this idea that there (01:01:51) is such a thing as healthy anger yeah um (01:01:53) it's one of the seven A's of your of (01:01:55) healing as you say the first being the (01:01:57) topic a topic we've talked about already (01:01:58) which is acceptance yeah (01:02:01) um the next being awareness well (01:02:04) awareness I wish we had put into this (01:02:06) book but we didn't not into this book uh (01:02:09) in this book I booked Four A's and uh I (01:02:12) left that awareness and that was an (01:02:13) Omission on my part really yeah it was (01:02:15) I'm sorry but it was so in the book you (01:02:18) have authenticity (01:02:19) anger acceptance (01:02:22) an agency yeah and yeah acceptance yeah (01:02:25) so awareness you've said before before (01:02:28) this book that awareness is the starting (01:02:30) point yeah (01:02:31) I found that to be so true in my life (01:02:33) but it's not very easy I feel like (01:02:35) awareness is a is a luxury or a (01:02:37) privilege that is very hard fought yeah (01:02:40) because you're guessing yeah you're (01:02:42) guessing based on pattern recognition so (01:02:44) I was guessing 25 years old I can't get (01:02:46) into relationship any time a girl comes (01:02:47) near me yeah even if I've pursued her I (01:02:49) run off and to figure out why I was (01:02:52) doing that to even identify the behavior (01:02:54) pattern and go that's not helpful that's (01:02:55) not going to lead me to feeling whole (01:02:57) yeah (01:02:59) um where does that come from took 25 (01:03:01) years and a lot of like introspection (01:03:04) but but most people they're living (01:03:07) unaware of the puppet master of trauma (01:03:10) that is driving their life that's a (01:03:12) really good analogy the trauma really is (01:03:14) like um a puppet master behind the (01:03:16) scenes in the unconscious pulling your (01:03:17) strings and you're not aware of it you (01:03:20) know do you remember Pinocchio yeah so (01:03:23) remember what Pinocchio says at the end (01:03:25) the way when he finally becomes a real (01:03:27) boy yeah yeah he says how foolish I was (01:03:30) when I was a puppet (01:03:32) and to the extent that we're being (01:03:35) activated by these (01:03:38) unconscious strings that are traumas (01:03:41) pulling behind the scenes (01:03:42) and reacting in our lives and we think (01:03:44) we're autonomous free beings but we're (01:03:46) actually being controlled by something (01:03:47) in the past that we haven't worked out (01:03:50) we're puppets (01:03:51) reality puppets (01:03:53) there's not there's not much freedom in (01:03:55) that there's no there's no freedom in it (01:03:57) at all (01:03:58) so I mean I suppose the opposite of (01:04:01) trauma if you want to revisit that (01:04:03) question is is liberation (01:04:06) interesting (01:04:08) Liberation and by reconnection by (01:04:12) reconnection of Liberation from the from (01:04:14) the inexorable power of the unconscious (01:04:17) which is like cutting the strings in a (01:04:19) way kind of brings me to there's kind of (01:04:20) two ways to I want to go with that but (01:04:22) the first question I have about about (01:04:23) trauma and the puppet master analogy is (01:04:26) do we ever do we ever really cut the (01:04:28) strings or do we just kind of learn to (01:04:30) pull against them when they try and tell (01:04:32) us to do something with more Force then (01:04:34) they're exerting in the opposite (01:04:35) direction (01:04:37) um (01:04:38) that doesn't work very well (01:04:40) pushing against it because they're still (01:04:42) reactive you're still not in charge (01:04:43) you're just in automatic resistance mode (01:04:46) to something there's no freedom in that (01:04:47) either (01:04:48) you know so yeah (01:04:52) um (01:04:53) but awareness that you mentioned is huge (01:04:56) because weren't you aware that there's (01:04:59) this see the thing about these strings (01:05:01) may not Fray right away (01:05:04) but once you wear that ah (01:05:07) this reaction of mine (01:05:09) it's not about what's going on right now (01:05:11) there's something old being activated (01:05:12) here that awareness alone weakens the it (01:05:16) slackens the strings a bit no you know (01:05:18) they no longer is taught they're no (01:05:20) longer is automatically (01:05:22) um (01:05:23) capable of pulling on you (01:05:25) so it does have to be begin with (01:05:27) awareness of them ultimately (01:05:31) if we realize that this Puppet Master is (01:05:34) just a desperate little person trying to (01:05:36) get you to survive the only way he she (01:05:39) they knew how when you were small when (01:05:42) they were small if you make friends with (01:05:43) it (01:05:44) but we believe it of its duties (01:05:47) saying thanks very much but I can handle (01:05:49) it now (01:05:50) it eventually Becomes Her friend rather (01:05:53) than sort of our (01:05:55) Master you know (01:05:57) you know on that first step of just (01:05:58) acknowledging just understanding that (01:06:00) there is a puppet master they're (01:06:02) controlling us and exactly which strings (01:06:04) that Puppet Master is is pulling in our (01:06:07) lives how does one go about (01:06:09) awareness the process of awareness is (01:06:11) that I mean is it introspection keeping (01:06:13) a diary therapy what is it well all that (01:06:15) I mean it all or any but even when you (01:06:18) ask how you go about it (01:06:21) what is the it well for you to say how (01:06:24) to go about it you already must have (01:06:25) some degree of awareness if you didn't (01:06:27) you wouldn't even be asking the question (01:06:28) so that's the very first step (01:06:31) of realizing that there's something here (01:06:33) to work on there's something here to (01:06:35) work through it does not need to be the (01:06:38) way it is that already is the biggest (01:06:40) step the Buddha said that that to (01:06:43) recognize the source of your suffering (01:06:44) is the first step towards relieving the (01:06:46) suffering and so as soon as you ask how (01:06:49) you go about it you've already taken a (01:06:50) huge step because a lot of people don't (01:06:52) even know that there's an it (01:06:54) they just think this is a reality that (01:06:56) this is life so we're realizing that (01:06:58) this it doesn't have to be the way it is (01:07:01) that's already a huge step now beyond (01:07:04) that (01:07:05) yoga meditation (01:07:08) um nature (01:07:11) um therapy of all kinds Bodywork (01:07:14) of all kinds like like somatic (01:07:17) experiencing or um or um (01:07:22) cranial sacral treatments or even (01:07:25) massage therapy it's incredible what can (01:07:28) be revealed just through body work like (01:07:30) that then all kinds of forms of therapy (01:07:32) the ones I teach the ones other people (01:07:34) teach (01:07:35) journaling (01:07:39) um certain exercises in this book that (01:07:41) we recommend like just ask yourself will (01:07:44) you have trouble saying no in life to (01:07:45) things you don't really want to do and (01:07:47) working that through on a regular basis (01:07:49) so there's lots of ways once you open (01:07:51) the door (01:07:52) you know (01:07:54) I have a chapter on psychedelics here (01:07:55) which is a (01:07:57) again it's not like a Panacea or for (01:07:59) everyone but surely it's a helpful (01:08:01) modality for a lot of people (01:08:03) so um some people may actually benefit (01:08:07) from taking pharmaceutical medications (01:08:10) if their situation is dire enough (01:08:12) but not as the final answer but as a way (01:08:15) of getting respite that allowed them to (01:08:17) go to work on the real issues that cause (01:08:19) them to be depressed or (01:08:21) anxious or tuning out you know so any (01:08:26) and all of these things other people (01:08:28) don't even want to open those doors (01:08:29) though because they there's so much pain (01:08:31) associated with maybe going back or (01:08:33) revisiting an early experience that they (01:08:35) just think it's better keep the doors (01:08:36) shut yeah (01:08:38) um and get get to tomorrow that's true (01:08:42) um to which I have two answers one is (01:08:45) it's true it's painful (01:08:48) um because all the pain you didn't want (01:08:50) to feel and you've been running away (01:08:51) from through your compensatory behaviors (01:08:54) like like your addictions are nothing (01:08:56) but an attempt to escape from Pain (01:08:57) that's all they are that's not you know (01:08:59) they're not a disease they're not a (01:09:01) genetic whatever it is addictions are (01:09:04) very simply an attempt to escape pain (01:09:06) which could create more pain (01:09:08) but that's what they are (01:09:10) and so we get addicted to work to sex to (01:09:13) pornography the gambling to the internet (01:09:15) to shopping to eating to power on that (01:09:18) point I find it so fast that you that (01:09:19) when you mentioned in your previous book (01:09:22) that you know you classify things like (01:09:24) food yeah social media yeah shopping (01:09:28) yeah porn and work as types of addiction (01:09:32) that was uh that in and of itself was a (01:09:34) bit of a revelation for me because I (01:09:36) never saw work as an addiction the (01:09:38) minute you said it was and I kind of (01:09:40) link it to (01:09:41) you know heroin addiction which is (01:09:43) providing a you know a certain (01:09:45) psychological physiological (01:09:47) um benefit to me yeah temporarily (01:09:49) temporarily yeah of course it's a (01:09:51) [ __ ] addiction of course work is an (01:09:53) addiction because they have that (01:09:54) addiction well it can be an addiction (01:09:56) yeah or it can also be sacred it can (01:09:59) also be fulfilling in the manifestation (01:10:01) of your creative urges but it's so it's (01:10:03) not the (01:10:05) but it's strange to say not that I (01:10:08) recommend it but it's possible even to (01:10:10) use heroin in a non-addictive way (01:10:12) I don't personally get it and I would (01:10:14) never want to but the addiction is never (01:10:17) in the (01:10:18) Behavior itself it's in your (01:10:20) relationship to the behavior so if the (01:10:23) particular activity gives you temporary (01:10:25) relief or pleasure and therefore you (01:10:27) crave it (01:10:29) but it causes harm in the long term and (01:10:31) you can't give it up you've got an (01:10:32) addiction and I don't care what the (01:10:34) activity is could be drugs and all the (01:10:36) other things that we mentioned and and (01:10:38) and it employs the same brain Circus by (01:10:41) the way the workaholic is after the same (01:10:43) brain chemical that the cocaine addict (01:10:45) is after dopamine (01:10:47) you know and people can be even addicted (01:10:50) to their own stress hormones like (01:10:51) adrenaline the so-called Adrenaline (01:10:54) Junkies there's such a thing you know so (01:10:56) almost anything can be addictive if it (01:10:58) serves the purpose of temporarily easing (01:11:00) some distress but causing harm in the (01:11:02) long term is is escapism the right word (01:11:05) to use then for it if we're (01:11:07) because it it doesn't sound as much like (01:11:09) we're escaping rather than we are (01:11:12) seeking something I'm seeking relief (01:11:14) from a certain mental state like like (01:11:19) I just gave you a definition of (01:11:21) addiction so I think I don't know what (01:11:23) addictions you've had what happened or (01:11:25) haven't besides you know but what did (01:11:28) that do for you (01:11:30) temporarily (01:11:33) um and give you something made me feel (01:11:35) like I was valid and I was pursuing a (01:11:39) sense of accomplishment and validation (01:11:41) and a good sense of worth worth yeah it (01:11:43) was worthy yeah no is that something (01:11:45) that people need or not (01:11:46) yes yeah that's a good thing but the (01:11:49) real question is (01:11:51) why did you ever get the idea that you (01:11:53) didn't have the words why did I get the (01:11:55) I didn't have the word that's what (01:11:56) trauma comes because I was called the (01:11:57) n-word when I was yeah eight by a kid in (01:11:59) school exactly and then I know myself (01:12:01) because your mother screamed at your (01:12:03) father yeah yeah you know and and so all (01:12:06) that together and so (01:12:09) and that's emotionally painful like (01:12:10) what's it feel like to be not to have a (01:12:13) sense of word that's painful and so (01:12:15) that's why my Mantra is don't ask why (01:12:18) the addiction that's why the pain (01:12:20) and if you understand why the pain you (01:12:22) have to look at that person's life (01:12:24) and what the benefit of the addiction is (01:12:26) that's something that you say in the (01:12:28) previous book that I found is it's a (01:12:30) flipping of narrative where you say we (01:12:33) should be asking what the benefit of the (01:12:34) addiction is well and like in your case (01:12:36) yeah it gives me a sense of worth well (01:12:38) okay (01:12:39) I'll say to you if you come to me (01:12:41) because you say like I'm broke or like (01:12:43) it's causing some harm in my life it's (01:12:45) keeping keeping me from Intimate (01:12:47) Relationships that makes me stressed and (01:12:49) tired whatever it is (01:12:50) that's the first thing I would ask you (01:12:52) for you of you is what is it doing for (01:12:54) you and you say a sense of word and I'd (01:12:56) say you know what (01:13:00) you deserve to have a sense of birth I (01:13:02) totally understand why you'd want to (01:13:05) engage in an activity that gives it to (01:13:07) you (01:13:09) but given that it's causing you harm (01:13:10) let's look at why you don't have a sense (01:13:12) of worth and how else you might develop (01:13:14) it that isn't harmful to you you know so (01:13:18) but you you start with what's right (01:13:21) about it what are you looking for and (01:13:23) what you're looking for is always valid (01:13:28) and how one would go about how would one (01:13:30) go about getting that sense of worth and (01:13:32) asking for a friend (01:13:34) well um that would be a matter of (01:13:38) um some form of work people who meditate (01:13:42) often deal with that issue through the (01:13:44) meditation not always (01:13:47) certainly therapy (01:13:48) you know (01:13:50) um (01:13:53) by recognizing also that what you're (01:13:55) doing to get a sense of where it doesn't (01:13:56) really do it for you just by getting (01:13:58) honest about it you know (01:14:00) so there's all kinds of ways but the (01:14:03) first step is the recognition (01:14:05) that's the first step that you say is uh (01:14:07) missing missing from the book which is (01:14:08) that sort of awareness the next thing (01:14:10) which I've been it's been really front (01:14:12) of mind in my life recently because I've (01:14:13) been asked this a few times on stage and (01:14:14) I've been trying to find the words to (01:14:16) really (01:14:17) um articulate the importance of it is (01:14:19) and this is one of your forays in this (01:14:20) book about how to heal is authenticity (01:14:22) yeah really interesting concept because (01:14:25) I've been trying to articulate why the (01:14:27) fact that I've just shared all this (01:14:28) stuff with you yeah and the fact that I (01:14:30) do this every week yeah I'm getting (01:14:32) closer and closer to that sort of (01:14:33) authentic self where there's really the (01:14:35) mask is kind of dropping on me why (01:14:37) that's been so healing for me why is (01:14:38) authenticity such a good way an (01:14:40) important way for us to heal (01:14:42) it's much more than the way for us to (01:14:44) heal it's actually who we are like what (01:14:46) you're actually asking is why is it (01:14:48) important for a creature to be true to (01:14:50) its own nature (01:14:51) because (01:14:52) that's what we're meant to do we're (01:14:54) meant to be here as ourselves (01:14:56) you know and and and when we nod (01:14:58) ourselves because we had to abandon (01:15:00) ourselves or (01:15:02) betray ourselves disconnect from (01:15:04) ourselves in order to survive (01:15:07) um (01:15:08) we lost connections with our essence and (01:15:11) uh (01:15:13) I mean how does it feel (01:15:15) to (01:15:17) be a successful CEO and you know more (01:15:21) than realizing your Financial dreams (01:15:24) but to be a workaholic and and and and (01:15:27) not to be available to yourself in areas (01:15:30) of your life that really matter to you (01:15:32) as opposed to (01:15:34) being honest about your stuff (01:15:36) sharing with other people uh dropping (01:15:40) the veil dropping the I mean (01:15:43) to answer your question what does it (01:15:46) feel like I mean can you sense the (01:15:47) difference in your body feels lighter (01:15:50) well yeah expansive exactly well that's (01:15:53) the answer yeah that's why it's so (01:15:55) important (01:15:56) so many of us so many of us um (01:16:00) live in authentic lives because as you (01:16:02) said it's it's because either (01:16:05) because from an early age we were (01:16:06) escaping (01:16:08) um some kind of you know reality in (01:16:10) order to help us to survive or then the (01:16:12) other thing that happens a bit later on (01:16:13) in life is we develop an identity which (01:16:15) becomes a career which becomes a Social (01:16:16) Circle which becomes a prison (01:16:19) of um our inauthentic selves we get (01:16:22) trapped in there you know because I was (01:16:25) good at something or because I you know (01:16:26) I felt accepted in this job as a lawyer (01:16:29) so I am now living inauthentically as (01:16:32) this robot in this prison (01:16:35) um (01:16:37) and it's a it's a (01:16:39) there's often a real perception of risk (01:16:42) and loss in danger (01:16:44) of trying to get out of that prison and (01:16:46) trying to get close to our authentic (01:16:48) selves we feel like we'll lose our (01:16:50) friendship Circle we'll feel like we'll (01:16:52) we'll let our parents down he wanted us (01:16:54) to become a lawyer you know all of these (01:16:56) things (01:16:57) I guess you see that a lot in your in (01:16:59) your work well there is that risk and (01:17:02) but here's the issue as a child you had (01:17:05) no choice (01:17:06) but to go for (01:17:08) acceptance and being approved of and (01:17:11) being received (01:17:13) um under any under any conditions no (01:17:15) matter what you had to give up of your (01:17:17) authenticity you had to give up your (01:17:18) authenticity you had no choice in the (01:17:20) matter (01:17:21) at a certain point as adults we get we (01:17:23) learn that this lack of authenticity (01:17:25) this this connection from ourselves this (01:17:28) separation from our gut feelings (01:17:30) um is costing us it's costing us in (01:17:33) terms of our physical health our our (01:17:35) Peace of Mind our relationship our (01:17:38) mental health and so on (01:17:41) you'll never be as vulnerable again as (01:17:44) you were as when you were a child you (01:17:46) never be as helpless as dependent as (01:17:50) um resourceless (01:17:52) no it's true that if you develop the (01:17:55) whole set of relationships based on your (01:17:57) authentic inauthentic Persona some (01:17:59) people (01:18:01) in your life may not like it if you (01:18:05) gradually move towards authenticity they (01:18:07) may not like it it's not what they (01:18:09) wanted from you you're going to find out (01:18:11) who your friends are (01:18:12) you're really gonna fight because your (01:18:13) real friends will say oh I'm so happy (01:18:15) for you (01:18:16) we were waiting for this other fans will (01:18:19) say uh that's not what I signed up for (01:18:20) you know (01:18:22) the question is you still have to decide (01:18:25) as an infant as a young child I had no (01:18:27) agency (01:18:30) in the choice of you know authenticity (01:18:31) and attachment no I do (01:18:34) which one do you want to go with what is (01:18:36) the cost of being an authentic I can't (01:18:38) make that decision for anybody else (01:18:40) nobody can make that decision for (01:18:42) anybody else but most people will find (01:18:45) that choosing authenticity as benefits (01:18:47) Way Beyond whatever they might lose (01:18:50) that's what I find (01:18:52) and you said the word their agency which (01:18:54) is the second of the Four A's yeah on (01:18:56) how to heal now agency when when I read (01:18:58) that word I I hear like personal (01:18:59) responsibility taking personal (01:19:01) responsibility yeah over my life exactly (01:19:03) which also means not letting you know (01:19:06) you don't use try you don't wear trauma (01:19:08) as a badge you know or you don't use it (01:19:11) as a get out of jail pass in a game of (01:19:13) Monopoly oh I was traumatized so I can't (01:19:15) I can't be any other way you know I mean (01:19:17) giving all the power to the Puppet (01:19:19) Master yeah yeah exactly (01:19:22) so agency means actually I take the (01:19:24) responsibility not for what happened to (01:19:26) me (01:19:29) not even how I interpreted the world as (01:19:32) a result going backwards but how I (01:19:34) interpret the world from now on do I (01:19:36) still want to interpret the world and my (01:19:38) role in it based on some decision I made (01:19:40) when I was a one-year-old that's where (01:19:41) agency comes in agency also means that (01:19:44) if I have (01:19:46) any kind of dysfunction or illness it's (01:19:48) not just that I put my hands in the (01:19:50) hands of a put my my faith in the hands (01:19:53) of a physician or a Healer but I I have (01:19:56) I make the decisions I listen to your (01:19:59) advice I accept some I don't accept some (01:20:01) but I'm the one who's making the (01:20:03) decisions along with what seems right to (01:20:06) me (01:20:07) to agency (01:20:10) first thing in your in your work (01:20:11) throughout your work you use (01:20:12) alliteration as a lot as a way to kind (01:20:15) of summarize and make ideas really (01:20:17) memorable (01:20:18) it really helps it's an old trick it's a (01:20:21) trick it's a writing trick right well it (01:20:23) also works you know before ways or uh (01:20:27) before almost but I don't I don't know (01:20:29) what to say you know what I'm I'm (01:20:30) denigrating my work if I say it's a (01:20:32) trick no it's just something just the (01:20:34) way things occur to me that's all it is (01:20:36) one of the one of the um alliteration (01:20:38) devices you use is also relates to (01:20:41) limiting beliefs and how we can undo (01:20:43) self-limiting beliefs with the five R's (01:20:46) yeah relabel reattribute refocus re re (01:20:50) value and recreate yeah now from what I (01:20:54) understood of those relabeling is (01:20:58) the story and the belief that is (01:21:00) limiting to us (01:21:02) um well it taste something like um (01:21:05) eurocologist yeah I need to go to work I (01:21:09) need to do this work really building as (01:21:12) I don't need to do this work I just have (01:21:14) a belief that I need to do this work (01:21:15) okay so that real building just takes a (01:21:19) degree of separation from the (01:21:21) behavior and and actually it's true it's (01:21:24) not that you need to do all the circuits (01:21:26) you have this belief so the relay (01:21:27) building just says it for what it is by (01:21:29) the way I have to acknowledge that I (01:21:32) these these five R's only one in his (01:21:35) mind I stole the other four from a (01:21:37) psychiatrist just I I mentioned that in (01:21:40) the book but I find it very helpful (01:21:42) technique but the it was developed for (01:21:45) people with obsessively compulsive (01:21:47) Tendencies so the relabel is not that I (01:21:50) have to wash my hands 100 times I just (01:21:52) have a belief that I have to wash my (01:21:53) hand a lot of times that's the context (01:21:55) in which it was developed I think it (01:21:56) works for all kinds of all kinds of (01:21:59) Dynamics and then if I and then so I've (01:22:01) re-labeled it (01:22:03) I don't have to work to feel a sense of (01:22:05) validation but I have a belief that I do (01:22:07) that's right and then I reattribute it (01:22:09) which is the second R which means I get (01:22:12) clear on where it's come from yeah so (01:22:15) let's say you have to believe that (01:22:16) you're not worth it it's not too then (01:22:18) I'm not worth it I just never believed (01:22:20) that I'm not worth it (01:22:22) okay or it may not be too then I'm not (01:22:24) worth it but I do have a belief that I'm (01:22:26) not worth it re-um attribute means this (01:22:30) is an old brain circuit sending me an (01:22:32) old message it's got nothing to do with (01:22:34) reality it has to do with some (01:22:36) experience that I had a long time ago (01:22:37) that's to be attribute you just say (01:22:39) where is it actually coming from there's (01:22:41) a circuit in your brain that's wired (01:22:43) with the message (01:22:45) you're not worth it and it's going to (01:22:47) keep repeating that message well you say (01:22:49) okay that's where it's coming from until (01:22:51) I refocus which is the photo yeah so (01:22:53) refocus is just to give yourself some (01:22:55) space so if you ever say uh I need to go (01:23:00) to work uh okay refocus means well for (01:23:03) five minutes (01:23:04) maybe in five minutes I'll go to work (01:23:06) but five minutes I won't I'm gonna put (01:23:09) on some piece of music or go for a walk (01:23:11) or meditate or whatever so you refocus (01:23:15) you put the attention somewhere else (01:23:17) right just just so that to prove to (01:23:19) yourself but you actually have some (01:23:22) agency over your brain (01:23:23) if only for five minutes if you have (01:23:26) this belief that I'm not worth it (01:23:29) well you can go back to it in five (01:23:30) minutes if you want just for five (01:23:32) minutes though consider all the ways (01:23:34) they've made a contribution (01:23:36) consider all the ways that people have (01:23:38) acknowledged your (01:23:40) benign the presence in their lives (01:23:42) the times that people uh have told you (01:23:44) that they've loved you or that you told (01:23:46) somebody else just for five minutes hang (01:23:48) up with that five minutes later you want (01:23:50) to go back to this belief that or if you (01:23:52) can't help going back to this belief (01:23:54) that you know I said well that's okay (01:23:55) but at least create some space it's all (01:23:58) about creating space between yourself (01:24:00) and these beliefs or these behaviors (01:24:03) and in that five minutes you're (01:24:04) basically accepting new evidence to be (01:24:06) true or you're proving that other (01:24:07) evidence is true I didn't need to go and (01:24:09) work well you're also proving that you (01:24:11) don't have to spend all your time (01:24:12) subjected to those beliefs you can take (01:24:15) a Hiatus from it (01:24:16) at least for a while and they are not (01:24:18) you they're not you yeah and then (01:24:21) revalue (01:24:23) um (01:24:24) reevalue it really what it should mean (01:24:26) or maybe more accurately devalue because (01:24:29) you say what has been the actual value (01:24:32) this belief that I'm not worth it what (01:24:34) has been the actual value of it in my (01:24:36) life or this tendency of mine to be a (01:24:39) workaholic what has been actual value (01:24:42) it made me tired it made me alienated or (01:24:45) it keeps me depressed so it keeps me (01:24:47) hopelessly trying to prove something (01:24:49) which I can never prove to myself anyway (01:24:50) to external activity so that you (01:24:53) actually look at what does it mean it's (01:24:54) actually impact on your life (01:24:56) what has been his real value (01:24:58) um sometimes the value is positive (01:25:00) though right like I think about my own (01:25:02) workaholic workaholism if that's the (01:25:04) term I think uh there's some there's (01:25:06) some positives here yeah a lot of (01:25:07) negatives yeah well it is the positive (01:25:11) do the workaholism or is it due to your (01:25:13) capacity to work hard and and on behalf (01:25:16) of a goal they're not the same (01:25:19) new capacity to work hard to achieve a (01:25:22) certain goal is simply a gift that you (01:25:24) have (01:25:24) and something that maybe takes some (01:25:26) discipline an application on your part (01:25:29) that's not working that's just (01:25:31) a strong positive work ethic (01:25:35) the recallism and you're driven to work (01:25:37) you actually don't need to (01:25:40) it's funny because it reminds me of an (01:25:41) analogy I've been talking about in the (01:25:42) last couple of episodes of this podcast (01:25:44) of the the distinction between being (01:25:46) driven and being dragged yeah it's like (01:25:48) am I which side of the Lorry am I flying (01:25:51) down the motorway am I tied to the front (01:25:53) and am I running and pulling the Lorry (01:25:54) or am I just like my ankles attached to (01:25:56) the back of the Lorry as it flies down (01:25:58) the motorway because I'm being dragged (01:26:00) but if I may I would say that neither of (01:26:02) those are particularly desirable (01:26:06) but but but but it's the distinction (01:26:08) that I made before between being driven (01:26:10) and being called yeah because if you (01:26:13) called it's if I call you (01:26:15) say Stephen would you come and have (01:26:17) dinner with me you can say yes you can (01:26:19) say no I just gave you a call and you (01:26:21) could say literally I'm talking about (01:26:22) calling you know telephone call you know (01:26:24) you can say yes you can say no it's a (01:26:27) decision now but you're the one who's (01:26:28) making the decision yeah when you're (01:26:30) dragged or pushed or pulled you're not (01:26:32) making the decision I'm a slave to the (01:26:34) decision to that that's right to the (01:26:35) activity (01:26:37) one of the um one of the really (01:26:38) interesting things I wanted to talk to (01:26:40) you about is is ADHD yeah (01:26:42) um I've had a few of my friends and my (01:26:45) close Friendship Circle diagnosed with (01:26:46) ADHD recently (01:26:48) um and then I looked into some of the (01:26:50) statistics around ADHD and I found this (01:26:52) statistic that said in the 1980s one in (01:26:55) 20 U.S children were diagnosed with ADHD (01:26:57) today the number is roughly one in nine (01:27:00) yeah (01:27:01) um (01:27:02) and just generally you know around me (01:27:05) there's it feels like and this could (01:27:07) just be because of my own little narrow (01:27:09) Circle or it could be because of a wider (01:27:10) thing happening in society it feels like (01:27:12) there's been an increase in diagnosis of (01:27:14) mental illness and things like ADHD and (01:27:17) the causes when I spoke to my friend (01:27:20) about what he believed the cause of um (01:27:22) his ADHD was and he's posted this on (01:27:24) LinkedIn and talks about it very (01:27:26) publicly now (01:27:27) um it seemed to point to he seemed to (01:27:31) believe it was relating to (01:27:33) some kind of genetic or heritable (01:27:37) um Factor now the issue the issue that (01:27:41) I've sort of been contending with myself (01:27:42) and why I spoke to Johann Hari about (01:27:44) this and others about this is (01:27:46) if I if I am to accept that then I am I (01:27:48) feel like I'm accepting that we're being (01:27:51) born somewhat broken and this is almost (01:27:54) what Johann Hari talked about in in the (01:27:56) early stages of his teenage years where (01:27:58) he he was made to believe that there was (01:28:00) this chemical imbalance in his brain and (01:28:01) therefore he was born broken and here's (01:28:03) the medication to solve it yeah (01:28:05) so but I don't want I don't believe that (01:28:06) I don't I don't personally believe that (01:28:08) we're we're born broken well um and (01:28:11) anybody interested in the subject (01:28:13) my daughter I think Joanne and actually (01:28:15) this is to read my book and it is called (01:28:17) scattered minds and um I was diagnosed (01:28:20) within my 50s and so were a couple of my (01:28:22) kids but but I never bought into the (01:28:24) idea this is a genetic disease or that (01:28:26) it's a disease at all genetic or (01:28:28) otherwise (01:28:29) um now as for the rising number of (01:28:32) um people being diagnosed with it there (01:28:34) could be two reasons at least one is (01:28:36) we're better diagnosis so before we (01:28:38) wouldn't have noticed it but now we are (01:28:40) or genuinely there's more people who are (01:28:43) having trouble in certain ways such as (01:28:44) with attention and impulse control and (01:28:47) so on (01:28:49) but either way the fact is that many (01:28:51) more children are being diagnosed and (01:28:53) medicated (01:28:54) for this condition particularly in the (01:28:55) U.S but also increasingly uh here in the (01:28:58) UK as well and in China and elsewhere (01:29:00) now (01:29:02) um as I said earlier if we the fact is (01:29:06) here's the actual reality nobody's ever (01:29:08) found the gene for ADHD nobody's ever (01:29:11) found the gene that says if you have (01:29:13) this Gene you're gonna have ADHD no such (01:29:15) thing has ever been found no group of (01:29:17) genes ever been found that says if you (01:29:19) can have this Gene you're gonna have (01:29:20) this condition nor ever will be and no (01:29:23) such gene or group of genes have ever (01:29:25) been found that if you don't have these (01:29:27) genes you will not have the condition (01:29:29) now there are some diseases there are (01:29:32) genetic one runs in my family muscular (01:29:34) dystrophy if you have the gene you're (01:29:36) going to have the disease my mother had (01:29:38) it my aunt had it (01:29:40) that's a genetic condition and if you (01:29:42) have the gene you'll have the disease (01:29:46) very rare those kind of diseases (01:29:50) no there are some genes that the more (01:29:54) them you have (01:29:55) the more likely you are to have any (01:29:57) number of mental health diagnoses ADHD (01:29:59) depression anxiety even psychosis (01:30:02) bipolar Illness but there's no group of (01:30:05) genes or set of genes or Gene that (01:30:07) themselves determine any one condition (01:30:09) as a matter of fact you can have those (01:30:11) same genes and not have any condition (01:30:13) whatsoever (01:30:15) so something is being passed on but it's (01:30:17) not any kind of condition that's being (01:30:20) passed on what's being passed on is (01:30:22) sensitivity and the more sensitive you (01:30:24) are the more you're gonna feel whatever (01:30:26) is going on in the environment so you (01:30:28) take the same sensitive kid with these (01:30:30) genes that confer greater sensitivity of (01:30:33) them and sensitive means to feel from (01:30:37) the Latin word to feel sincere the more (01:30:39) sensitive you are the more you're going (01:30:41) to feel the more you feel the more bad (01:30:43) stuff happens the more pain you're going (01:30:45) to be in and the more compensating (01:30:47) you're gonna have to do (01:30:48) the same time with those same genes if (01:30:51) you tweeted well and you grow up in a (01:30:52) healthy environment you just be creative (01:30:54) and happy and joyful and a leader and an (01:30:57) artist or a shaman or or a very creative (01:31:00) CEO or whatever you're going to be so (01:31:02) the genes don't determine they make you (01:31:05) more sensitive to their environment no (01:31:08) if you go back to what I said about the (01:31:10) tuning out it's simply a defense (01:31:12) so the more sensitive you are (01:31:15) and the stress in the environment the (01:31:18) more you're going to feel the stress the (01:31:19) more you're gonna need to escape from it (01:31:20) by tuning out (01:31:22) so he didn't inherit ADHD you inherited (01:31:25) a sensitivity that makes it more likely (01:31:28) under stressful circumstances that you (01:31:30) revert to tuning out when your brain is (01:31:33) developing which by the way is an organ (01:31:35) that develops physiologically under the (01:31:37) impact of the emotional environment (01:31:40) so if there's a lot of stress in a (01:31:42) child's life and what I'm saying is in (01:31:43) this Society is that more and more (01:31:45) parents are stressed not because they (01:31:47) don't love their kids not because (01:31:48) they're not doing their way utmost to (01:31:51) provide for them but because they're (01:31:52) more stressed to all kinds of social (01:31:54) political economic reasons I mean if you (01:31:56) look at inflation in Britain is a high (01:31:58) risk right now more people are going to (01:32:00) be stressed financially (01:32:02) Financial stress on the parents (01:32:04) translates into physiological stress in (01:32:06) the children (01:32:08) those children may want to tune out (01:32:10) because it's too much to be in their (01:32:11) present some of them will be diagnosed (01:32:13) with ADHD (01:32:14) they didn't inherit anything in terms of (01:32:16) a disease they're just reacting to the (01:32:19) environment (01:32:20) so if we're diagnosing more and more (01:32:21) kids these days I think it's because the (01:32:23) parenting environment has been much more (01:32:26) stressed and that's backed up in this (01:32:28) book where you mentioned that study of (01:32:29) 65 000 parents yeah um and their (01:32:32) children with ADHD right (01:32:34) you say well there's more trauma in (01:32:36) their lives yeah so the children they do (01:32:38) a study with 65 000. I forget (01:32:42) I read it yeah yeah (01:32:44) but many thousands of kids yeah so (01:32:47) because I found that to be really really (01:32:49) sort of um supportive of what you just (01:32:50) said where I I'm again I'm I'm saying (01:32:53) this from memory but a study of 65 000 (01:32:56) um children and their parents and they (01:32:57) found that those parents who had more (01:33:00) adverse (01:33:01) um traumatic events in their lives ended (01:33:04) up having having a higher chance of (01:33:06) having a child that had ADHD well look (01:33:08) if you look at um the United States at (01:33:11) least (01:33:11) poor kids and kids of so-called color (01:33:15) are much more like to be diagnosed with (01:33:17) ADHD interesting no why would that be (01:33:20) the case because they're living with so (01:33:22) much more stress (01:33:23) men as well right men as well adults you (01:33:26) mean men yeah so I read that more men (01:33:29) more boys more men are diagnosed partly (01:33:31) because in men the the symptom of (01:33:35) hyperactivity seems to be there more (01:33:37) often so when a kid is sitting in school (01:33:39) and the cancer still that's obvious the (01:33:42) teacher will notice it the girl who's (01:33:44) kind of dreamy and tunes out (01:33:46) kind of Fades away at the back of the (01:33:49) class she doesn't create any problems (01:33:51) so they don't then that's one of the (01:33:54) reasons but also (01:33:56) um (01:33:56) funny to say but young boys infant boys (01:34:01) are more sensitive to a mental (01:34:03) environmental pressure than girls are (01:34:05) for some strange reason so they're more (01:34:07) likely to be affected by these factors (01:34:11) Singapore like that in the class that's (01:34:12) a fidgety that has a poor attention span (01:34:14) bad response to stress we medicate what (01:34:18) is the impact of that approach to (01:34:20) treatment medicating super early (01:34:22) I used to (01:34:23) when I worked as a physician I would (01:34:25) certainly prescribe medication sometimes (01:34:27) it's a question of who's prescribing it (01:34:30) and what intention (01:34:32) if I understand that the real problem in (01:34:34) this child is not that there's anything (01:34:35) intrinsically wrong with the child (01:34:38) but that they were developed in a (01:34:39) stressed environment and those stresses (01:34:41) are still acting on them (01:34:43) and one of the stresses is that parents (01:34:45) don't understand the kids behaviors and (01:34:47) they tend to react rather harshly (01:34:49) then if I change if I can help the (01:34:51) parent understand the sensitive nature (01:34:53) of their child (01:34:55) which also means that when positive (01:34:56) changes occur in the environment the kid (01:34:58) will be very responsive to that as well (01:35:00) if the parents can create a positive (01:35:02) accepting understanding atmosphere in (01:35:05) the home and work on their own stresses (01:35:07) so they don't unconsciously pass them on (01:35:09) to the kids that kid will change very (01:35:11) quickly (01:35:12) and I say well if in the short term the (01:35:15) child wants the medication to function (01:35:17) better and no child should be forced to (01:35:19) take medication and medication are never (01:35:22) the final answer at the very most their (01:35:25) stop cap there's no proof whatsoever (01:35:27) that medications help anybody heal from (01:35:29) ADHD they simply suppress symptoms which (01:35:32) may be helpful in the short term but for (01:35:34) God's sakes go to work on the long-term (01:35:36) development of that child and what does (01:35:38) that mean create the conditions image (01:35:40) healthy development takes place that (01:35:42) child will do very very well if you (01:35:44) think the problem is a disease they're (01:35:46) just going to medicate away the symptoms (01:35:48) of (01:35:49) what about fat adults they might I'm (01:35:51) thinking of my friend that he's he's in (01:35:52) his 30s and he got the diagnosis of ADHD (01:35:55) in his 30s yeah he's been given this (01:35:56) medication which he presumably has to (01:35:58) take for Life he's told me the (01:36:00) medication has helped helped him Focus (01:36:02) this helps him Focus has helped him (01:36:04) Focus yeah it's been a game changer (01:36:05) Steve you know yeah yeah I I've taken (01:36:07) medication myself for ADHD and it helped (01:36:09) me focus it helped me write my first (01:36:11) book (01:36:12) um I didn't dig it for this one as a (01:36:14) matter of fact more recently when I was (01:36:16) beginning to write the medication I (01:36:17) thought maybe I would take a bit of (01:36:18) stimulant like I used to and just to see (01:36:21) if it helps me write the book better all (01:36:23) it did all it did is give me side (01:36:25) effects my brain has changed I don't (01:36:27) need it anymore you know so I I would (01:36:30) say to your friend if the medication is (01:36:32) helping right now and it's not causing (01:36:34) you side effects (01:36:35) I got nothing against it and (01:36:38) you might want to give it a break every (01:36:41) you know every weekend if you don't you (01:36:42) know you might want to use it for when (01:36:44) you're having to work or having to you (01:36:46) know they concentrate but it's up to you (01:36:47) if it helps you function take it but go (01:36:50) to work on the traumas and stresses that (01:36:52) are driving the ADHD going back to your (01:36:55) childhood (01:36:56) and you know I may say my book in ADHD (01:36:59) scattered Minds does outline some ways (01:37:01) to do that (01:37:03) um you might find that you don't need (01:37:04) the medication uh so much anymore or not (01:37:07) at all perhaps number one number two (01:37:10) even if you do your life will be so much (01:37:13) Fuller and so much more um less stressed (01:37:16) if you deal with the underlying factors (01:37:19) then if you simply medicate the symptom (01:37:21) is there I always think in life there's (01:37:23) a cost for all these things we use to (01:37:25) medicate and stimulate ourselves and (01:37:27) yeah so I always always ask myself like (01:37:29) there's got to be it's gonna say there's (01:37:30) got to be a catch here and even for (01:37:32) coffee I'm like what's the catch it (01:37:34) can't just be all up and positive and (01:37:36) with with my friend when he said when he (01:37:37) had the conversation with me about being (01:37:38) on this this medication for life my (01:37:40) first thought is like okay what's the (01:37:42) cost it's going to make you really (01:37:43) focused and better at work but what is (01:37:45) the what is the long-term cost of (01:37:48) I had to talk to your friend friend (01:37:50) those are good questions to ask (01:37:52) when I took medication it made me a much (01:37:55) more efficient workaholic you know it (01:37:57) did nothing for my recallism just made (01:37:59) me much better at it because I could (01:38:01) stay up later now and I was more focused (01:38:03) I get even more things done you know so (01:38:07) um you got to deal with these other (01:38:09) issues did you I did did I deal with (01:38:13) them yes I have and there's so much more (01:38:17) like like dealing with the trauma like (01:38:20) I'm telling you if your friends got ADHD (01:38:23) I can tell you heated stressed early for (01:38:25) years and his parent was her parents (01:38:28) were strapped his pants were stressed so (01:38:30) deal with that deal with what conditions (01:38:32) are you creating now in your life that (01:38:34) create more stress for you (01:38:36) are you taking care of your body are you (01:38:39) exercising are you eating well do you (01:38:40) get out there in nature nature is a (01:38:42) certain kind of Harmony to it which (01:38:44) actually calms the mind you know so are (01:38:46) you doing all these things if you're not (01:38:48) all you're doing is medicating a symptom (01:38:52) if you are taking the medication (01:38:54) specifically to help you focus but (01:38:56) you're working on his other issues (01:38:59) you have a much full life and you may (01:39:01) find you don't need the medication after (01:39:02) all you you came off the medication for (01:39:05) your add yeah (01:39:07) um because I'm a (01:39:09) because I'm just not that medically well (01:39:11) versed what's the difference between AD (01:39:12) ADD and ADHD it's you know it's a kind (01:39:15) of a confusion it is just simply means (01:39:17) that the hyperactivity is present okay (01:39:19) so you can have ADD with or without (01:39:21) hyperactivity okay so the actual you (01:39:24) know proper way to divide it is a d (01:39:29) and in Brackets HD so that in indicating (01:39:32) that the hyperactivity may or may not be (01:39:35) there got you so you you you were on (01:39:37) medication you did the work you know not (01:39:40) on medication yeah (01:39:42) um do you still have the symptoms of ADD (01:39:44) to a certain degree but not in the way (01:39:47) that anyway Bloods my life like one (01:39:48) thing I completely be sure that when I (01:39:50) go on a speaker I'm going to lose (01:39:51) something I'm going to lose my (01:39:55) my portable electrical (01:39:58) tooth cleaner where I'm gonna in this (01:40:00) case I left my rain jacket in Budapest (01:40:02) when I came here and I I you can take it (01:40:05) for granted that my attention will just (01:40:07) not notice something that I haven't (01:40:09) packed yet that's okay I'm going back to (01:40:10) Budapest next week so I get to get my (01:40:12) rain jacket back but sometimes it's the (01:40:14) cost of being me so what you know so no (01:40:17) not in every way (01:40:18) but that's not the point nobody's life (01:40:21) has to be perfect it just has to be a (01:40:23) life that I I want to live and I can (01:40:25) enjoy living (01:40:27) that I have you know so who cares if (01:40:30) sometimes I forget something or I lose (01:40:32) something or even if I'm listening to a (01:40:35) symphony and I can't keep my attention (01:40:37) on it okay so I can't (01:40:40) this you talk about there's some toxic (01:40:42) Society yeah (01:40:46) do you think society's getting more (01:40:48) toxic and if so why what measure shall (01:40:51) we use you know if you use the measure (01:40:55) of a number of kids being medicated (01:40:57) a number of adults having chronic (01:40:59) illness autoimmune disease a number of (01:41:03) students University students (01:41:06) being depressed contemplating suicide (01:41:10) number of children in the United States (01:41:12) killing themselves (01:41:15) um (01:41:16) the number of people on medications of (01:41:18) all kinds (01:41:20) the degree of safety that people have in (01:41:23) society the the rancor or peace that (01:41:26) characterizes political discourse in (01:41:27) this world the (01:41:31) intolerable fact that eight people in (01:41:33) the world I think own as much as the (01:41:35) bottom half (01:41:36) as the bottom 3.5 billion (01:41:39) you know if I look at all those things (01:41:42) by those measures if you look at what's (01:41:44) happening to the environment (01:41:46) if I look at the fact that the people (01:41:47) who are the worst polluters in the (01:41:49) environment also happen to be the most (01:41:51) successful people you know by a certain (01:41:53) measure of success (01:41:55) um (01:41:56) by any number of parameters if I look at (01:41:59) um (01:42:00) oh (01:42:02) racism still affects the lives of so (01:42:05) many people (01:42:06) um and and not just affected in an (01:42:09) emotional sense but actually (01:42:10) physiologically you know (01:42:15) it's a this is a toxic society and those (01:42:17) measures are getting worse they're not (01:42:18) getting better and inequality is getting (01:42:21) worse here in the UK and elsewhere (01:42:24) so yeah I think it's getting more toxic (01:42:26) what's the antidote well (01:42:29) um how about we go back to this word (01:42:30) awareness like like people just have to (01:42:33) get that this is how it is and in the (01:42:35) last chapter I don't lay out a political (01:42:37) program you know I don't see that as my (01:42:39) role to do that I have my own political (01:42:41) ideas and preferences but I don't want (01:42:43) to impose them on the reader but I do (01:42:45) say (01:42:46) first of all we have to lose our (01:42:48) illusions (01:42:49) that this is that this normality is (01:42:51) actually healthy or natural we have to (01:42:53) just get (01:42:55) cognizant that what we consider to be (01:42:57) normal is actually bad for us (01:43:00) um number one number two (01:43:02) um (01:43:04) just if we introduced the concept of (01:43:07) trauma into Health Care (01:43:10) like the average doctor again strange to (01:43:13) say doesn't hear a single lecture in (01:43:15) their medical training about the impact (01:43:17) of trauma on physical or mental health (01:43:19) which is astonishing given that it was a (01:43:23) British psychologist Dr Richard benthal (01:43:25) who pointed out not that many years ago (01:43:27) that the evidence linking what we call (01:43:30) mental illness and childhood adversity (01:43:32) is about as strong as the evidence (01:43:33) linking smoking and lung cancer (01:43:35) and the average physician doesn't hear a (01:43:38) word about that it's astonishing (01:43:41) education teachers if they understood (01:43:43) Child Development brain development the (01:43:46) developmental factors that I that (01:43:48) children need that I (01:43:50) cite in this book and if they understood (01:43:53) how trauma affects his capacity to learn (01:43:55) to pay attention (01:43:57) and to behave in functional ways The (01:43:59) Daily Telegraph (01:44:01) here in London not that long ago was (01:44:05) bemoaning the fact that kids aren't (01:44:07) caned anymore in schools (01:44:09) I mean they were but they were but they (01:44:12) were moaning about is that we no longer (01:44:14) traumatized kids quite as harshly as we (01:44:16) used to (01:44:17) that's what it that's all it does caning (01:44:19) so if teachers understood that the (01:44:22) behaviors on the part of children are (01:44:24) actually manifestations of emotional (01:44:26) dynamics of frustration and needs not (01:44:29) being met and and very often of trauma (01:44:32) that would change the educational system (01:44:34) if the legal system understood it (01:44:37) that that most people facing the (01:44:40) criminal justice system are actually (01:44:41) traumatized people they could actually (01:44:43) be rehabilitated uh and and and healed (01:44:48) if we understood that instead of just (01:44:50) exposing them to harsh punishments we (01:44:52) actually treated them like human beings (01:44:53) who may have done things that are (01:44:55) unacceptable but that came from traumas (01:44:58) they couldn't have helped and that they (01:45:00) can be helped back to (01:45:02) um healthy functioning as we know from (01:45:04) lots of experience just that little (01:45:07) trauma information would change society (01:45:11) so that's what I can offer as a (01:45:14) physician what about parents what do (01:45:17) they need to know yeah well if parents (01:45:19) actually understood first of all (01:45:22) that the first three years are (01:45:23) everything that if if they get the (01:45:25) template right in the first three years (01:45:27) they can hardly set a foot wrong (01:45:30) afterwards (01:45:31) but in the other hand if we're not (01:45:33) present for our kids emotionally if we (01:45:35) don't understand them if we don't see (01:45:37) them (01:45:38) if we don't (01:45:39) attune to their emotional states we're (01:45:42) going to hurt them (01:45:44) and if they understood what the needs of (01:45:45) children are when I mentioned some of (01:45:47) them for play for (01:45:50) experience of all emotions for (01:45:54) unconditional loving attachment for the (01:45:56) child being able to rest from having to (01:45:59) work to make the relationship work (01:46:02) so the child doesn't have to be good or (01:46:04) nice or beautiful or or or or successful (01:46:07) or they just have to be (01:46:12) approval and acceptance on them if (01:46:14) parents just understood that (01:46:16) and if they understood how important it (01:46:18) is that they take care of their own (01:46:20) emotional needs so that a child doesn't (01:46:22) have to take responsibility (01:46:24) like perhaps you did for the parent (01:46:26) stresses (01:46:28) your parents understood all that and if (01:46:29) Society actually understood her (01:46:31) importance parenting was and it (01:46:33) supported parents who needed the support (01:46:35) to be there for their kids (01:46:38) it wouldn't be financially (01:46:41) costly it would save us a lot of money (01:46:43) not to mention we live a lot more (01:46:45) happier kids (01:46:46) who don't need to be on medications so (01:46:48) yeah and lastly schools schools well (01:46:52) again like I said about Educators if (01:46:53) Educators well here's the thing if you (01:46:56) look at how does the human brain develop (01:46:57) I quite an article I quote an article (01:47:00) from the Harvard Center on the (01:47:01) developing child that appeared in a (01:47:04) journal of Pediatrics official Journal (01:47:05) of the American Pediatric Academy in (01:47:08) 2012 February (01:47:11) the article said that the human being (01:47:14) developed it to do a complex process (01:47:16) that begins before birth and continues (01:47:19) into adulthood okay now that means a we (01:47:23) take care of the emotional needs of (01:47:24) pregnant women (01:47:25) number one number two if it conditions (01:47:28) into adulthood continues into adulthood (01:47:30) then the job of the schools if they (01:47:32) understand it right is not to teach kids (01:47:35) what year (01:47:37) the ball of the battle of Australis took (01:47:39) place or the ball of Battle of Waterloo (01:47:43) um or or you know algebra any of any of (01:47:47) that stuff the most important job of the (01:47:49) schools is to promote healthy brain (01:47:51) development (01:47:52) with a child who's with healthy brain (01:47:54) development will actually be naturally (01:47:56) curious they'll want to know about (01:47:57) history that we came to uh to absorb the (01:48:01) skills of algebra they'll want to know (01:48:03) how to use a computer and they'll want (01:48:06) to know (01:48:07) um how to write properly a kid will want (01:48:10) to do that spontaneously because Mastery (01:48:13) and and learning these are human hungers (01:48:16) the human needs (01:48:18) so (01:48:21) in other words the most important job of (01:48:22) the schools is not to cram the kids full (01:48:24) of information (01:48:26) but to help them develop healthy brains (01:48:28) what does that require (01:48:30) safety above all lack of pressure (01:48:33) healthy relationship with nurturing (01:48:35) adults (01:48:37) and if the kids are not going to spend (01:48:38) their time with the adult but they with (01:48:40) the parents which they can't in this (01:48:42) Society like they used to through a (01:48:44) human evolution let them spend their (01:48:45) time with adults who are emotionally (01:48:47) nurturing and emotionally penetrating (01:48:50) the attentive to the child's needs now (01:48:52) you're going to have schools that are (01:48:53) going to really kids teach kids (01:48:55) something and where kids will want to (01:48:57) learn and it's very simple (01:48:59) it doesn't take more training and it (01:49:01) doesn't take more well they take some (01:49:03) training perhaps but not more than what (01:49:06) teachers are getting now so that's sort (01:49:08) of a take in education (01:49:11) I was thinking there about the (01:49:12) importance of doing (01:49:14) certain psychological tests on certain (01:49:15) teachers because if they are also (01:49:17) passing on a generational cycle yeah of (01:49:20) their own at a time when my brain is (01:49:21) still being developed they can have a (01:49:23) huge impact positively or negatively on (01:49:24) my absolutely on my life in the same way (01:49:26) that my parents could absolutely uh it's (01:49:30) quite remarkable teachers don't know how (01:49:31) much power they have because of the (01:49:33) vulnerability of the young brain (01:49:35) and well-meaning teachers (01:49:38) it will sometimes behave in ways that (01:49:39) are really hurtful to kids just because (01:49:41) they don't get it not because they don't (01:49:43) mean well so I've had many adults sit in (01:49:45) my office (01:49:46) say with tears in their eyes about (01:49:49) something a teacher said to them three (01:49:50) decades before (01:49:52) like the classroom (01:49:55) the class will continue and Johnny comes (01:49:57) back to Earth (01:49:58) this kind of sarcastic little dig (01:50:01) can under my child's dignity and sense (01:50:04) of self so easily so if teachers just (01:50:07) understood how powerful they are and how (01:50:08) important they are in helping to promote (01:50:10) healthy brain development (01:50:12) I think the profession would take in a (01:50:14) whole new meaning that would be much (01:50:15) more satisfying than it is right now (01:50:18) it's not the fault of individual (01:50:20) teachers we're talking about a system (01:50:21) that isn't that is toxic (01:50:27) okay but we have closing tradition on (01:50:29) this podcast oh okay where the previous (01:50:31) guest asks a question (01:50:34) for the next guest I didn't get to see (01:50:36) it until I opened the book so there's a (01:50:38) question written here for you before I (01:50:40) ask you this question I did have a (01:50:41) question of my own which was you know (01:50:42) you're in your 70s now (01:50:45) um (01:50:45) what are you still working on in terms (01:50:48) of your own traumas is there anything (01:50:49) even though you're you're in a later (01:50:51) stage of your own life that you you're (01:50:53) still sort of struggling with as it (01:50:55) relates to that Puppet Master pulling on (01:50:57) the strings and (01:50:58) that kind of analogy that we gave (01:50:59) earlier (01:51:00) yeah (01:51:02) um it's (01:51:04) a sense of peace (01:51:06) when I'm not doing anything (01:51:10) just being (01:51:12) the capacity just to be (01:51:17) um that's something I'm (01:51:19) still looking for not well not looking (01:51:21) for like I was looking for a lost puppy (01:51:24) but (01:51:25) I'm still searching myself for (01:51:28) and where exactly does that come from in (01:51:30) your own diagnosis (01:51:33) oh what if I tell you when I find out (01:51:35) I mean I can give you a textbook answer (01:51:38) but it wouldn't be authentic okay (01:51:41) so you don't know (01:51:43) entirely I have some senses I have some (01:51:46) ideas and then (01:51:47) um (01:51:49) it (01:51:50) foreign (01:51:55) it really means (01:51:57) being okay with my mind the way it is (01:52:00) and not needing it to be any different (01:52:03) that's what it would mean (01:52:05) which means if I'm sitting there (01:52:07) for five minutes I don't know how to (01:52:09) reach for the cell phone to occupy my (01:52:11) mind (01:52:12) and now in the midst of this busy book (01:52:14) tour and all the speaking I do I don't I (01:52:17) don't do enough to to take care of that (01:52:20) quiet (01:52:21) little voice inside myself I don't (01:52:24) I think it would take some attention (01:52:27) I can't either though I can't sit for (01:52:29) two I can five minutes I couldn't sit (01:52:31) for five seconds without grabbing my (01:52:32) phone that's weird I noticed the other (01:52:34) day that I was like going to the toilet (01:52:35) and I had no intention of using my phone (01:52:38) in the toilet yeah but I went to get my (01:52:40) phone because you can't be alone with (01:52:42) yourself yeah I can't be alone with (01:52:43) myself yeah I can't (01:52:45) sitting for 30 seconds you know my brain (01:52:48) is that is that because they've built (01:52:50) these algorithms to to stimulate my (01:52:51) dopamine or is it because there's (01:52:53) something in me I guess it goes back to (01:52:54) a point about addiction well it's both I (01:52:56) mean they're they're certainly creative (01:52:58) algorithms to stimulate your brain and (01:52:59) get you hooked on that dopamine head (01:53:01) you're sure if we should they call that (01:53:03) neural marketing neural marketing can (01:53:06) you get that yeah they work on your (01:53:07) brain to get you know to get you (01:53:09) addicted but it also comes from an (01:53:11) earlier discomfort with the self that (01:53:12) predates (01:53:14) any cell phone use it goes back to (01:53:16) earliest childhood where it couldn't (01:53:19) have been comfortable to be (01:53:21) just with yourself because of (01:53:23) circumstances (01:53:26) interesting interesting yeah my because (01:53:30) I've Got Friends that don't have the (01:53:32) same the same addiction with their cell (01:53:34) phones that I do they they can take it (01:53:37) or leave it they put it outside their (01:53:38) bedroom when they go to bed charging in (01:53:39) the kitchen I'm like how I have to hold (01:53:41) mine like my pillow yeah exactly well (01:53:43) like your little safety pillow and (01:53:45) what's the first thing you do when you (01:53:46) wake up in the morning I grab it with (01:53:48) one eye open and all that gunk in my eye (01:53:50) I'm like trying to just you know yeah (01:53:51) yeah we'll have if both you and I work (01:53:53) are not doing that so much okay I'll (01:53:55) give you my number you'll let man we (01:53:57) should we shouldn't discuss by phone how (01:53:59) we're getting on with this that's just (01:54:00) another reason to use my phone but next (01:54:02) time I speak to you okay in person you (01:54:04) can update me on how you're getting on (01:54:05) with that I am I am I am working on it (01:54:08) I'm working on it (01:54:10) I think I've got to become more (01:54:11) cognizant of the cost of that addiction (01:54:14) well exactly (01:54:15) to really I know one of the costs is (01:54:18) meaningful connections and presence with (01:54:20) them with and in the cost to (01:54:22) interpersonal relationships but (01:54:24) maybe I haven't had the the cost (01:54:27) um impact me enough yet maybe (01:54:31) the question left for you (01:54:34) but I don't know the signature so I'll (01:54:36) have to figure that out later but is (01:54:39) what's your selfish dream (01:54:44) um you know what I'm not sure how to sit (01:54:47) with that question because I'm not (01:54:48) trying to get out of it but I just don't (01:54:50) look at my own reaction to it (01:54:53) um (01:54:55) you know at this point (01:54:58) I don't have too many what does it mean (01:55:00) selfish by the way (01:55:02) let me ask you that what does that mean (01:55:04) something that (01:55:06) is for me at the expense of others (01:55:08) I don't think I have any dreams like (01:55:10) that left I might have not might have I (01:55:12) did have (01:55:13) at some point but if I have a dream (01:55:17) for myself in that sense of (01:55:19) self-enhancing dream something that (01:55:20) enhances my ego or something well if (01:55:25) this book sold a billion copies well (01:55:27) that that'd be a nice selfish dream you (01:55:29) know (01:55:29) but (01:55:31) I don't know how else to answer that (01:55:33) um I do have dreams but they're more (01:55:35) about (01:55:36) the state of the world that I like to (01:55:38) see the the world I'd like to see future (01:55:42) Generations in Arabic selfless Dreams (01:55:44) yeah well I don't know what this (01:55:46) self-loves because it certainly involves (01:55:48) my own history and certainly would make (01:55:51) me feel better you know so in that sense (01:55:53) it's selfish you might say but they're (01:55:55) not they don't have to do with personal (01:55:58) I have enough you know I've done enough (01:56:00) and I have enough so I don't have any (01:56:03) anything any anything lacking that I (01:56:06) need to dream about (01:56:07) all of our selfless streams are also (01:56:09) very much selfless selfish in that (01:56:11) regard as well they're going to help (01:56:13) themselves in a different sense I mean (01:56:15) any dreams I have or for a better world (01:56:17) certainly or certainly have the function (01:56:20) of making me feel better (01:56:22) of of maybe even (01:56:25) the stuff that happened to me or the (01:56:28) stuff that happened to you it would mean (01:56:30) a lot to me if they didn't happen to any (01:56:31) more children (01:56:33) you know so in the sense that it would (01:56:36) mean a lot to me you might say it's (01:56:37) selfish but it's not purely about me (01:56:39) it's about something larger I'm not (01:56:41) trying to paint myself as some kind of a (01:56:44) altruistic Saint I'm just saying that (01:56:46) would make me feel better if I really (01:56:48) knew that kids in Gaza didn't have to (01:56:50) face any more bombings if kids in Israel (01:56:53) didn't have to face anymore uh danger of (01:56:56) terrorist attacks if um not that I see (01:56:59) inequality there but I like that for (01:57:01) both of them if kids in Ukraine they (01:57:04) need to live under the the threat of (01:57:07) missiles falling (01:57:09) if people in Russia didn't have to feel (01:57:11) to live with the fear of (01:57:14) perhaps a nuclear conflict or the young (01:57:16) men being conscripted into a war (01:57:18) if uh if kids in Britain (01:57:21) you know didn't have to live in poverty (01:57:23) wouldn't that make you feel better you (01:57:26) know so to the extent that it makes us (01:57:27) feel better you might say it's selfish (01:57:29) but (01:57:30) is it (01:57:33) gabble thank you (01:57:36) my pleasure thank you so much thank you (01:57:38) so much for for writing such an (01:57:39) important book I I think my only wish is (01:57:41) that I discovered this book sooner (01:57:45) because I think so many of my I think it (01:57:47) would have liberated that's a good word (01:57:49) liberated me from a series of things (01:57:51) that would have helped me to live a much (01:57:53) better life and to understand myself (01:57:54) that's that's the point of awareness (01:57:56) that we talked about I know that your (01:57:57) Advanced stage is over isn't it yeah (01:58:00) I think we all want the answers even (01:58:02) sooner because we we reflect on some of (01:58:04) the consequences or the mistakes or the (01:58:06) that we made not that those are I'm (01:58:07) imprisoned by any of those but it's you (01:58:09) know and so it's so wonderful that this (01:58:11) book now exists you're you're a name (01:58:13) that I I started to be peppered with by (01:58:15) my audience over and over again (01:58:17) specifically in the last 12 months (01:58:18) people it's really really young people (01:58:21) were messaging me and asking me to have (01:58:23) a conversation with you about the topics (01:58:24) we've talked about today things like (01:58:25) ADHD and their trauma and so much and (01:58:28) you know I sit here every day talking to (01:58:32) um a lot a lot of people on this podcast (01:58:34) and (01:58:36) um I think my understanding of trauma (01:58:38) has forever been (01:58:40) redefined by both this conversation (01:58:42) today but also by your book and I really (01:58:45) I I'm so thankful to you because I think (01:58:47) that'll help me speak on the topic with (01:58:48) more accuracy (01:58:49) um and therefore um hopefully help other (01:58:52) people understand their their own trauma (01:58:54) in a more um meaningful way it's just (01:58:57) such an important book well thank you so (01:58:59) much thank you so much for giving me the (01:59:01) platform to to talk about my work and (01:59:03) and just the opportunity to meet you (01:59:05) thanks a lot and it's written in such an (01:59:07) accessible way yeah which is so (01:59:09) important because that means it can (01:59:10) reach even more people thank you so much (01:59:12) okay thank you (01:59:14) [Music] (01:59:26) thank you (01:59:34) [Music]