Screens & Sickness: Raising Healthy Kids in a Distracted World (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:03) Please welcome president of the Heritage (00:00:05) Foundation and Heritage Action, Dr. (00:00:07) Kevin Roberts. (00:00:10) [applause] (00:00:16) Thank you. Welcome to the Heritage (00:00:17) Foundation. It's always good to bring (00:00:19) friends together here in Washington, and (00:00:22) everything in Washington these days (00:00:24) seems to be urgent, particularly when (00:00:27) you go to Capitol. But I would argue (00:00:29) there's nothing more urgent for American (00:00:31) society than our topic today. That (00:00:35) urgency is because all of American (00:00:37) society, including the conservative (00:00:38) movement, has been late to recognize the (00:00:41) true threat technology poses to our (00:00:44) children's development, body, mind, and (00:00:48) soul. Digital dependency is making our (00:00:51) children's bodies weaker, their (00:00:53) imaginations wither, and their souls (00:00:56) restless and corrupted. (00:01:00) And digital dependency (00:01:02) is not an accident. Big tech is actively (00:01:05) working to colonize and commodify (00:01:09) American childhood. (00:01:11) Transhumanist technologists reject (00:01:13) natural limits and they're all too happy (00:01:15) to turn our kids into lab rats for their (00:01:18) experiments. (00:01:20) They want a generation glued to screens, (00:01:22) easy to track, easy to sell, and easy to (00:01:27) control. What they call innovation (00:01:30) is really an attempt to replace parents, (00:01:33) teachers, and faith with machines, data, (00:01:36) and control. This can no longer be (00:01:40) ignored nor excused. It is robbing our (00:01:43) young people of the wonder, the virtue, (00:01:46) and the discipline that make life (00:01:48) meaningful. As parents, we're charged (00:01:51) with raising virtuous citizens. As (00:01:53) policymakers, we have a duty to help (00:01:56) parents fulfill that charge. At William (00:01:59) Catholic College, where I was honored to (00:02:02) serve as president, we expressed that (00:02:04) mission this way. Outdoor education (00:02:08) renews wonder, the root of all learning. (00:02:11) It strengthens the imagination and the (00:02:13) senses, the indispensable supports of (00:02:15) every mental endeavor. It cultivates (00:02:17) virtue, the mind's compass, and the (00:02:21) wellspring of happiness. (00:02:24) Screen addiction does the opposite. It (00:02:27) destroys wonder, dulls the imagination, (00:02:29) numbs the senses, and undermines the (00:02:31) virtues. It's why since its inception, (00:02:34) Wyoming Catholic College has disallowed (00:02:36) cell phones on its campus. (00:02:39) The fruit of that is when you walk onto (00:02:42) campus and students and faculty alike (00:02:45) look you in the eye know how to have (00:02:48) conversations with you are joyful and (00:02:50) after the first semester when the (00:02:51) students have to turn in the phones and (00:02:53) and they lament that by the second (00:02:56) semester or the the third semester (00:02:57) really the fall of their second year (00:02:59) they're anxiously wanting to give it to (00:03:00) the college because they're ready to get (00:03:01) rid of this thing after they've had it (00:03:03) all summer. (00:03:05) I know I'm preaching to the choir. Many (00:03:07) of you in this room were among the first (00:03:09) to warn of the threat that screens and (00:03:10) new technologies present to our (00:03:12) children. What others saw as a cultural (00:03:14) shift, many of you rightly understood to (00:03:18) be the beginning of a societal crisis. (00:03:21) No one has sounded that alarm more (00:03:23) powerfully than our very distinguished (00:03:25) guest, Dr. Jonathan height. his (00:03:27) remarkable book, truly remarkable, one (00:03:29) of the most important in the modern era, (00:03:32) the anxious generation, how the great (00:03:34) rewiring of childhood is causing an (00:03:36) epidemic of mental illness, has awakened (00:03:38) America and the world to this danger. I (00:03:42) also know that Dr. Hyde has written (00:03:43) openly about how in the course of (00:03:45) working on the righteous mind, he (00:03:47) encountered conservative thinkers such (00:03:49) as Edmund Burke, and that encounter led (00:03:52) him to question some longtime (00:03:54) assumptions. and in the end to cease (00:03:58) identifying politically as a liberal. (00:04:02) Dr. Height, I know we may not agree on (00:04:05) every issue, but I want to tell you (00:04:08) you're always welcome here at Heritage. (00:04:11) We believe your work is making an (00:04:12) invaluable contribution to the republic (00:04:15) we all cherish. And I hope our (00:04:17) collaboration on this issue will (00:04:19) communicate to the whole country that (00:04:20) protecting the most vulnerable in (00:04:22) society, especially children, is a (00:04:24) civilizational challenge, not a (00:04:26) partisan. After Jonathan's remarks, (00:04:29) he'll join Dr. J. Richards, my friend (00:04:31) and colleague, the director of (00:04:33) Heritage's Devas Center for Human (00:04:34) Flourishing for a fireside chat and Q&A. (00:04:38) I know that Jonathan Jay, all of you are (00:04:41) fighting the good fight on behalf of (00:04:43) future generations of Americans. So (00:04:46) today, I'll close with just two things. (00:04:48) First, thank you for your courage, for (00:04:52) your leadership, your willingness to (00:04:54) confront this challenge head on. And (00:04:56) second, never give up. Our enemies are (00:04:59) powerful, but it's not too late to save (00:05:02) the rising generation from the harms of (00:05:04) technology. At Heritage, we're standing (00:05:06) shoulder-to-shoulder with you, working (00:05:08) to make our families stronger, our (00:05:11) children happier, and our nation (00:05:13) healthier. God bless you and know that (00:05:16) in the fight we are with you every day. (00:05:18) Please join me in welcoming Dr. Jonathan (00:05:20) Height. [applause] (00:05:26) [applause] (00:05:31) Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, (00:05:34) I'm I'm here to talk to you about one of (00:05:36) the last remaining bipartisan issues in (00:05:39) our country because Democrats have (00:05:41) children and Republicans have children (00:05:44) and everybody sees this happening. And (00:05:46) so I speak to groups everywhere on the (00:05:48) left and the right wherever I can reach (00:05:50) people who care about kids. But I'm I'm (00:05:52) excited to speak here for for two (00:05:54) reasons. The first is that conservatives (00:05:57) come to this question sensitized to a (00:06:00) range of social effects that a lot of (00:06:02) other people don't seem to get. And I (00:06:04) think Dr. Robert's introduction was one (00:06:07) of the best introductions I've had (00:06:08) because it laid out this isn't just (00:06:09) about mental illness or test scores. (00:06:12) This is about what do you say? Body, (00:06:14) mind, and soul are being sucked out or (00:06:17) being damaged. And this is about (00:06:19) citizenship. And this is about the (00:06:21) virtues of a democratic republic. So, (00:06:23) I'm really excited for that reason to (00:06:25) speak to this audience. The second (00:06:27) reason is that you guys are in charge. (00:06:30) Like, you know, that moment the (00:06:31) Republicans and the conservative (00:06:33) movement, you can actually make change. (00:06:36) And I want to show you not just that we (00:06:38) have to make change quickly, but that it (00:06:40) it actually is happening and it can be (00:06:43) done quickly for very little money for (00:06:45) most of it. So, I'm going to present to (00:06:47) you a gigantic problem that we can (00:06:49) actually solve. So, let's go. Um, so a (00:06:53) metaphor that I want to give you is (00:06:55) about the way that trees grow. And here (00:06:57) you see a tree that grew up behind a (00:06:59) Civil War era uh tombstone. And because (00:07:02) the tombstone was always there, the tree (00:07:05) grew around it. Uh, and now I want to (00:07:08) show you a photo of an actual Gen Z (00:07:10) brain, which (00:07:13) which I asked MidJourney to make for me. (00:07:16) But the point is if if young people if (00:07:19) if people born after 1995 that is Gen Z (00:07:22) if their brains were developing and the (00:07:24) phone was always there then the brain is (00:07:27) going to grow around the phone and that (00:07:29) I think is what's happened and I hope (00:07:31) you guys can see me there. I'll just go (00:07:32) like that to mean advance to the next (00:07:34) slide. Okay. And then and I I'll have to (00:07:36) do a lot so you have Okay. So the my (00:07:39) book um is a tragedy in two acts. What? (00:07:43) Okay. Uh, it's a tragedy in two acts. (00:07:47) So, in there we go. In act one, uh, we (00:07:50) lost the play-based childhood. We (00:07:51) freaked out about child abduction. We (00:07:53) stopped letting our kids out. All the (00:07:55) older people here played outside after (00:07:57) school and on weekends. Learn the skills (00:07:58) of independence, learn the skills of (00:08:00) self-governance. Preparation for (00:08:02) democracy happens on the playground. You (00:08:04) have to legislate, litigate, you have to (00:08:06) do all those things to keep the game (00:08:07) going. And in the 90s, we said too (00:08:09) dangerous. Let's always have you (00:08:11) supervised. (00:08:13) Um, act two is the more dramatic one (00:08:15) that I'll be focusing on, and that is (00:08:16) the sudden arrival of the phone-based (00:08:19) childhood. Uh, I'll walk you through (00:08:21) exactly the timing, but younger people (00:08:22) here in the audience, you saw you went (00:08:24) through this. You saw all of this happen (00:08:26) while you were teenagers or in in (00:08:28) puberty. (00:08:31) I can summarize the whole book by saying (00:08:33) that we have overprotected our children (00:08:35) in the real world. We've underprotected (00:08:37) them online. We have to reduce both. We (00:08:39) have to reverse both mistakes. (00:08:42) So this is a summary of what I'll go (00:08:43) through just very briefly. I'll start (00:08:45) with the mental illness because that's (00:08:47) where we have the best data. That's (00:08:49) where this whole thing started. We first (00:08:51) notice something is terribly terribly (00:08:52) wrong. Uh so this graph shows the (00:08:55) percentage um when when college students (00:08:58) go into the mental health center or (00:09:00) rather I should say what percentage of (00:09:01) college students across the country have (00:09:04) which problems. And you know all the (00:09:06) graphs I'm going to show you there's no (00:09:07) trend before 2010. Um and then this (00:09:10) happens. the rates go way way up, (00:09:13) especially for especially for girls, as (00:09:15) you'll see on the next slide. It's (00:09:17) [clears throat] not just that that young (00:09:18) people say they're more depressed, it's (00:09:21) that their behavior changes as well. So, (00:09:23) the CDC tracks why people go into (00:09:26) hospitals. And so, there's a category (00:09:27) for non-fatal self-injury. And uh and (00:09:31) the rates for 10 to 14 year old girls, (00:09:33) 10 to 14 year olds used to be extremely (00:09:35) low out of 100,000 kids that age. And (00:09:38) then we hit this key period and that (00:09:40) happens. 10 to 14 year old girls did not (00:09:42) used to cut themselves in 2010 but by (00:09:45) 2015 2020 they were cutting themselves. (00:09:49) Um and it's the same for suicide. (00:09:51) There's no real trend before uh 2010 (00:09:53) 2012 and then it goes way up and very (00:09:55) very sharp for girls although boys end (00:09:58) up with more uh more deaths because they (00:10:00) tend to use lethal methods a gun or a (00:10:02) tall building. (00:10:05) And it was when I realized around 202122 (00:10:08) that it wasn't just us because you know (00:10:10) what went wrong in 2012. You know you (00:10:12) can blame it on Obama if you want. (00:10:13) Whatever it is say something but if it's (00:10:15) happening everywhere at the same time (00:10:18) what could that be? (00:10:21) Um and just one one dramatic slide from (00:10:24) the UK self harm data for British teen (00:10:26) girls. Same thing. It's as though (00:10:28) somebody turned on a switch in 2012 and (00:10:31) girls around the Western world started (00:10:33) cutting themselves and being brought to (00:10:35) hospitals. (00:10:37) Now, why why is this happening? (00:10:39) [clears throat] (00:10:40) The uh the the story that I tell here is (00:10:43) the only story out there. No one, you (00:10:45) know, I have critics who say that I'm (00:10:47) over interpreting the evidence, but they (00:10:49) don't come out and say, "We think it was (00:10:50) something else." Nobody else can even (00:10:52) offer an explanation for why this (00:10:53) happened around the world in 2012. If it (00:10:55) was 2009 or even 2010, you could say (00:10:57) global financial crisis. But things were (00:10:59) getting better by 2012. (00:11:02) The way to understand it is this. Um, if (00:11:04) you were born in 1990, raise your hand (00:11:06) if you're born right in 1990 or around (00:11:08) there. We must have some millennials (00:11:09) here. Okay, so you millennials. Uh, just (00:11:12) call it out. What kind of phone is that? (00:11:15) The razor, right? You guys seem to love (00:11:16) that thing. Like it was your lifeline (00:11:18) and all all you could do with it was (00:11:20) call and text, right? And Snake, right? (00:11:22) The game Snake. So, but that's it. (00:11:24) That's all it did. So, it was a it was a (00:11:26) tool that you used. There was no (00:11:28) front-facing camera, no internet, no (00:11:29) Instagram, none of that. So, if you're (00:11:31) born in 1990, you started puberty around (00:11:35) 2002, let's say, and you're done with (00:11:36) puberty around, you know, 2006, 2006, (00:11:40) sometime in there, you went through (00:11:41) puberty. That's why you're okay on (00:11:43) average. The millennials have better (00:11:45) mental health than Gen X. They're (00:11:47) actually more intelligent than Gen X. (00:11:49) Uh, the highest human IQ was achieved (00:11:51) with the millennials. And now it's (00:11:53) actually going downhill. (00:11:55) Um, if you were born 10 years later, (00:11:58) suppose you were born in in the year (00:12:00) 2000, you're now your Gen Z. Your (00:12:02) puberty was entirely different. You (00:12:05) turned 12 in 2012, and that's the year (00:12:07) that Americans flip from mostly having (00:12:09) flip phones to mostly having (00:12:11) smartphones. So, your first phone was (00:12:13) probably an iPhone that you got in (00:12:14) seventh or eighth grade. It had social (00:12:16) media on it. You went through puberty (00:12:19) posting, swiping, comparing, being (00:12:21) advertised to, being interrupted all day (00:12:24) long. You were a pawn in the attention (00:12:26) economy. Actually, can you see is this (00:12:28) chair blocking people? Should I move? (00:12:30) >> Yeah, why don't I'll just pull it aside. (00:12:31) Um, all right. But the point is, it's a (00:12:33) it's a completely different puberty. And (00:12:35) I really want you to keep your eye on (00:12:36) puberty. Puberty is such an important (00:12:38) developmental time when the brain is (00:12:41) changing very, very rapidly and the (00:12:43) environment is guiding it. And what's (00:12:45) the environment? Beginning in 2012, it's (00:12:48) Instagram and then it becomes Tik Tok. (00:12:51) [clears throat] (00:12:52) Um, so, uh, this is what childhood used (00:12:55) to look like. And those of you who I (00:12:57) know some of you recognize, you know, in (00:12:59) the 80s, if you're out with your friends (00:13:01) and you find an extraterrestrial, you (00:13:03) don't have to go tell adults, you know, (00:13:05) you can have all kinds of adventures. (00:13:06) Like, we had that kind of independence (00:13:09) back in the 70s and 80s. [snorts] Uh, (00:13:11) but childhood now is not like that. (00:13:14) Childhood now is very solitary because (00:13:16) if you're a boy, you can't go over to (00:13:19) your friend's house. What are you going (00:13:20) to do? You can't play with them. You (00:13:22) have to go to your house so that you (00:13:23) have your control, your avatar, and then (00:13:25) you can play with your friends. So, our (00:13:27) kids are so lonely. They're so isolated (00:13:29) because of these technologies that were (00:13:31) sold to us as connecting them. (00:13:34) [clears throat] (00:13:35) I can show you the great rewiring in a (00:13:37) single graph. Um, this is the American (00:13:39) time use study of of young people and (00:13:42) adults. How many minutes a day do (00:13:45) Americans spend with their friends (00:13:47) outside of work and school? Just hanging (00:13:49) out with your friends. All the lower (00:13:51) lines of the older ages, people with (00:13:54) jobs and marriages, they're not hanging (00:13:55) out with their friends. 15 to 24 year (00:13:57) olds used to spend more than two hours a (00:13:59) day with their friends. That's what you (00:14:01) did when you had free time. And then it (00:14:03) plummets. It plummets. And notice this (00:14:07) data point here was 2020 COVID. And you (00:14:10) can see COVID made everybody else bend (00:14:12) down. It accelerated that. But look at (00:14:16) the youngest group. 2018 to 2019. (00:14:19) COVID comes in, doesn't accelerate it. (00:14:22) It just continues. The point is that Gen (00:14:24) Z began to social distance as soon as (00:14:27) they got their iPhones. By 2019, they (00:14:29) were almost done. So CO just finished (00:14:31) the job. (00:14:36) Um, all right. So now I want to tell you (00:14:39) about what I now think is an even bigger (00:14:43) damage than even more consequential. I (00:14:45) mean to to say that a third of our kids (00:14:47) are suffering and are cutting themselves (00:14:49) is horrendous but this might even be (00:14:51) bigger. The destruction of the human (00:14:53) capacity to pay attention and to think. (00:14:58) Um so two years ago Derek Thompson wrote (00:15:00) an article in the Atlantic because test (00:15:02) scores were beginning to come in from (00:15:03) the postcoid era. And here we see the (00:15:06) national assessment of education (00:15:08) progress and it shows that America made (00:15:10) progress in raising the absolute level (00:15:13) of performance of our students very (00:15:15) slow. These are not big increases but (00:15:16) it's a slow steady increase from 1971 (00:15:20) through 2012 and then COVID happens and (00:15:24) the first postcoid data comes out the (00:15:26) 2023 data. You can see a big drop and (00:15:29) the education world says oh my god look (00:15:31) at this big drop. Look what CO did. you (00:15:33) know, maybe it wasn't such a good idea (00:15:34) to close the schools for a couple of (00:15:36) years. Um, but if it's caused by COVID, (00:15:38) then it will bounce back. It'll come (00:15:40) back, people thought. Well, uh, let's (00:15:42) look at the 2024 data. Um, this is the (00:15:45) same test, the NAPE broken up. First, (00:15:48) let's just look at the top the the kids (00:15:50) who score highest. For them, the COVID (00:15:53) story makes sense. Their drop doesn't (00:15:55) begin until COVID, and then in 2024, (00:15:58) they're beginning to recover. All good, (00:16:00) right? Now look at the bottom half, the (00:16:03) bottom 50% of the country on these test (00:16:06) scores. What happened to them? There's (00:16:08) no sign of COVID there. Their decline (00:16:10) began in 2015. As soon as they had (00:16:13) phones in their pockets and Chromebooks (00:16:15) on their desks, they started watching (00:16:16) Tik Tok and porn and video games all day (00:16:19) long during class. They stopped (00:16:20) learning. And after COVID, no bounce. It (00:16:25) just keeps going down. This is where (00:16:27) we're headed. Half of our country is (00:16:29) dropping and dropping and dropping. And (00:16:31) think here at Heritage, I know you do a (00:16:32) lot of thinking about education, (00:16:33) education policy, how should we be (00:16:35) spending our money, all the money we (00:16:36) spend on education, all the gains we (00:16:38) have from 50 years are now gone. We're (00:16:40) back to 1971. All gone up in smoke. But (00:16:44) I think we can get it all back pretty (00:16:46) quickly. I'll come to that. (00:16:48) The same thing with reading scores and (00:16:50) different grades. The exact same (00:16:51) pattern. (00:16:53) [clears throat] And this is what really (00:16:55) freaked me out when I discovered that it (00:16:57) wasn't just us. As I I showed you the (00:16:59) mental illness is around the world. So (00:17:02) are the test declines. So this is PISA (00:17:04) which is the test. 35 countries 15 year (00:17:07) olds take these performance exams. No (00:17:09) trend before 2010. We get into the great (00:17:12) rewiring and around the world humans (00:17:15) know less. Human beings are learning (00:17:17) less because their consciousness is (00:17:20) hijacked. (00:17:21) Our [clears throat] kids get hundreds or (00:17:24) many hundreds of interruptions a day. Uh (00:17:26) they get more than a hund on average (00:17:28) more than a hundred uh during school (00:17:30) hours. They've got their phones in their (00:17:31) pockets. My students at NYU, the great (00:17:34) majority of them, they get a (00:17:35) notification every time they get an (00:17:38) email because culturally they've been (00:17:40) conditioned to not want to miss (00:17:42) anything. I don't want to miss anything. (00:17:44) And if you don't miss anything, that (00:17:45) means you're never fully present for (00:17:46) anything. And I work with like please (00:17:49) shut it off right now. Take out your (00:17:50) phone. I have a phone free policy. Pull (00:17:52) out your phone, shut that off now. (00:17:54) They've we've got to help them get their (00:17:56) attention back. (00:17:58) Uh, and in talking with my students, I (00:18:00) teach at NYU Stern. I teach a course (00:18:01) called Flourishing. We were talking (00:18:03) about this article about college (00:18:04) students are having trouble reading (00:18:05) books, much more trouble than they used (00:18:07) to. As one of my students said, I open a (00:18:09) book, I read a sentence, I get bored, I (00:18:11) go to Tik Tok. It's always there and (00:18:13) it's always more interesting than a book (00:18:15) or a professor. (00:18:18) Uh, more data on this. This is a a study (00:18:20) of high school seniors going back to the (00:18:22) 70s, although 1990 in this case. Um, how (00:18:25) often do you say do you have trouble (00:18:27) thinking or concentrating? You see a (00:18:29) slight increase up to 2010. How often do (00:18:31) you have trouble learning new things? (00:18:32) No, no increase at all up to 2010. And (00:18:34) then this happens. All of a sudden, our (00:18:36) young people are saying, "I can't think. (00:18:38) I can't think anymore. It's hard to (00:18:39) learn." Again, this is a national (00:18:41) disaster. (00:18:44) And again, I keep saying, and this is (00:18:46) what really freaked me out because like (00:18:47) every week there's a new thing that (00:18:48) freaks me out about how big this is. Um, (00:18:51) this is uh data from an OECD study uh (00:18:54) includes the US. This is adults. This is (00:18:56) not kids. This is people who went (00:18:57) through puberty in the before time. And (00:19:00) what the the the light blue line is (00:19:02) functional illiteracy. And I looked at (00:19:04) some of the questions. You read three (00:19:06) paragraphs. One is about bread versus (00:19:08) crackers. And then you answer three (00:19:10) questions, simple questions. What (00:19:12) percent of Americans cannot do that? And (00:19:14) the answer is that it used to be around (00:19:17) 17% were functionally illiterate. You (00:19:19) know, down to 15% in 2010. And then we (00:19:22) enter the great rewiring and it almost (00:19:25) doubles. And this is going on around the (00:19:27) world. Even we, and I'm sure many of you (00:19:29) noticed this, it's just harder to do (00:19:31) anything because we're always (00:19:32) interrupted and distracted. (00:19:35) Um the journalist who wrote this he said (00:19:37) we seem to be witnessing not just a (00:19:38) decline of reading but a broader erosion (00:19:41) in the human capacity for mental focus (00:19:44) and application. (00:19:47) Um now very briefly we we we think about (00:19:50) social media and girls especially and (00:19:53) that was clear when I started the book. (00:19:54) I didn't know what the boy story was (00:19:56) when I started writing the book. There (00:19:58) are so many different pathways by which (00:20:00) girls are more vulnerable to social (00:20:02) media. They care. They know more about (00:20:04) the social network. They care more about (00:20:06) it. Um, they're more easily lured into (00:20:08) anything that promises social (00:20:10) information. And then they're drawn in (00:20:13) and locked into constant social (00:20:14) comparison, sexual predation. All sorts (00:20:17) of terrible things happen to girls when (00:20:19) they are spending hours a day on (00:20:21) Instagram, Snapchat, and these (00:20:23) platforms. (00:20:25) The boy story was harder to figure out, (00:20:27) and I didn't know it when I started the (00:20:28) book, but I think we got it. The boy (00:20:31) story, keep your eye on dopamine. Raise (00:20:33) your hand if you have a son born after (00:20:34) 1995. How many of you have a boy born (00:20:36) after 1995? Think about all of the (00:20:39) companies that are trying to give your (00:20:41) boy quick pleasure. It's quick pleasure (00:20:44) that gives you dopamine that makes you (00:20:46) do something over and over again. What (00:20:48) you want is slow pressure. You you're (00:20:50) building a treehouse. You make progress. (00:20:52) You feel good about it. That's what you (00:20:54) want because dopamine isn't just (00:20:55) reinforcement. Dopamine is actually (00:20:57) motivation. Dopamine makes you want to (00:20:58) do things. And so what happens though is (00:21:01) that we've said open season on our boys (00:21:04) for Silicon Valley. They can compete to (00:21:06) see who can grab every boy's attention. (00:21:08) It begins with the video games and (00:21:09) they're in a brutal conflict against (00:21:11) each other um to be the more addictive (00:21:13) site to keep the boys on their site and (00:21:16) then it moves on to porn where there's (00:21:17) no age limit of any kind. Uh there's (00:21:19) there's vaping, there's marijuana pens, (00:21:21) there are chemical addictions being (00:21:22) pushed on the kids when they enter their (00:21:24) teen years. Now they're going to start (00:21:25) sports betting. You don't have to be 21. (00:21:27) There's all kinds of ways that boys find (00:21:29) to be betting real money on games and (00:21:31) not just like who's going to win, but (00:21:32) every pitch. So, it's insane what we're (00:21:35) doing to boys and their relationships (00:21:37) and their pastimes and their enjoyment (00:21:38) of sports. And even investing, even (00:21:41) investing is gamified. The more you (00:21:42) play, the more you're going to lose. So, (00:21:45) think about, you know, conservatives are (00:21:47) really, I think, more sensitive about (00:21:49) the importance of marriage and the (00:21:50) decline of marriage. (00:21:52) We're it's already declining. What is (00:21:54) going to happen in 10 or 20 years when (00:21:56) young women are looking for a man to (00:21:58) marry and most of the men they're less (00:22:01) likely to have finished school or be (00:22:03) able to hold down a job or have not gone (00:22:06) bankrupt. Whenever sports betting is (00:22:08) legalized, bankruptcies go up mostly for (00:22:10) young men. We are ruining our young men. (00:22:12) And as my friend Richard Reeves says, a (00:22:14) world of floundering men is unlikely to (00:22:16) be a world of flourishing women. (00:22:21) Um, one more thing I'm very excited to (00:22:23) talk with you here about um, spiritual (00:22:26) degradation. [clears throat] So my my (00:22:28) first book was called the happiness (00:22:29) hypothesis and I I surveyed ancient (00:22:32) wisdom east and west and took out the (00:22:35) the psychological statements. Now I'm (00:22:37) I'm Jewish. I'm not a believer. I'm not (00:22:39) a religious person. But I came to see (00:22:42) that that religion is part of what makes (00:22:45) us human. It it was essential for the (00:22:48) creation of large-scale societies. We (00:22:50) couldn't have had large scale societies (00:22:51) without religion to hold us together. (00:22:53) Peace, prosperity, religion creates so (00:22:55) much social capital. And so in all the (00:22:59) things that the ancients told us to do, (00:23:00) this is common across many religions. (00:23:02) All of these things (00:23:05) when our kids are being raised on (00:23:06) phones, they're not doing any of them. (00:23:08) You know, like the, you know, Jesus (00:23:10) tells us, you know, be slow to anger, (00:23:11) quick to forgive, judge not lest you be (00:23:13) judged. But what happens on social (00:23:15) media? As soon as you're on social (00:23:16) media, what's the rule? Judge now. You (00:23:18) better judge now because if you don't (00:23:19) judge now, in five minutes, we're (00:23:20) judging you for not judging her. So, (00:23:23) this really messes up moral development, (00:23:26) spiritual development, and spiritual (00:23:28) communities. I've done a number of (00:23:29) Christian podcasts. Pastors are finding (00:23:31) the audience is distracted. You, you (00:23:33) know, you go to your go to your phone (00:23:34) for your Bible verse. Oh, there's a text (00:23:36) coming in. So, you have to be present, (00:23:38) especially for being part of a religious (00:23:40) congregation, for having spiritual (00:23:42) experiences. must be present and these (00:23:45) phones devastate presence. (00:23:48) I can show you the depths of our (00:23:50) spiritual crisis in a single graph. This (00:23:52) is the saddest graph in the book. Uh (00:23:54) that survey of of high school seniors (00:23:57) monitoring the future. One of the items (00:23:59) on it is life often feels meaningless. (00:24:02) Do you agree or disagree on a five-point (00:24:04) scale? And it's nice to see that only (00:24:06) about 17% of our boys and girls um agree (00:24:10) that their life feels meaningless. (00:24:11) That's what it was when the millennials (00:24:13) were in high school in 1991. Um, and or (00:24:16) that's the end of Gen X. But all of that (00:24:18) data, those are millennials and things (00:24:20) are actually getting a little better. (00:24:22) They're getting a little less likely to (00:24:23) agree with it. And then we enter the (00:24:25) great rewiring and all of a sudden it (00:24:27) doubles. Gen Z comes into the data set. (00:24:31) They go through puberty on Instagram and (00:24:33) then later Tik Tok and they agree, yeah, (00:24:35) my life feels useless. Because it is (00:24:36) useless. If all you're doing is (00:24:38) consuming content programmed by (00:24:40) algorithms in Silicon Valley, your life (00:24:42) is useless. You're just a pod being (00:24:44) sucked dry attention, that's a useless (00:24:47) life. We've got to stop it. We've got to (00:24:49) stop this from happening. (00:24:51) Uh there's a wonderful Gen Z poet, this (00:24:54) very power. It's so powerful. It's you (00:24:56) can find it on my Substack after Babel (00:24:57) or you can just look up her name, Corey (00:24:59) Jane. She says, "The phone is the (00:25:01) medicine that's making our souls die. I (00:25:03) know it's poison, but I drink anyway. (00:25:05) Our parents were right. It was the damn (00:25:07) phones. So this spiritual language this (00:25:10) you you need again I'm not I'm not a (00:25:12) religious person but I found to write (00:25:13) this chapter to write this book to (00:25:15) understand I had to turn to religion to (00:25:17) understand what are we losing what are (00:25:18) we missing what do we need to regain to (00:25:20) have a healthy society with healthy (00:25:22) children. (00:25:24) So that is the end of the super (00:25:27) depressing frightening part. I hope I've (00:25:29) got your attention. Okay. Guess what? We (00:25:33) can reverse this. We are reversing it. (00:25:35) Here's how it goes. Um, I'm a social (00:25:38) psychologist, which means I focus on how (00:25:40) do we influence each other when we're, (00:25:42) you know, we we're always taking our (00:25:44) values, our behaviors, always influenced (00:25:46) by what others are doing. And every (00:25:47) parent in the room of a teenager knows (00:25:49) the moment when your kid came to you and (00:25:51) said, "Mom, dad, I need a phone. I need (00:25:54) a phone. Everyone else has one. I (00:25:55) they're making fun of me. I'm the only (00:25:57) one who's left out." That's a social (00:25:59) trap. That's social pressure. And so (00:26:01) what I realized by the end of the book, (00:26:03) I realized I can't give 50 suggestions (00:26:05) for what to do. I have to have a few (00:26:07) that we can do at the same time to break (00:26:10) out of this because we're stuck in a (00:26:11) collective action trap. But the way out (00:26:14) is collective action. (00:26:16) So here here it is. Um the first norm is (00:26:19) no smartphones before high school. Let's (00:26:21) just set that as the target. I mean, (00:26:22) really, it could be later, but my goal (00:26:24) isn't what's the best age. It's what's (00:26:26) the highest age when we could actually (00:26:27) get a norm. Because it only matters if (00:26:29) we get a norm that most parents can lock (00:26:32) on to and then we get this stuff out of (00:26:34) middle school. Clear this all out of (00:26:36) elementary and middle school. (00:26:39) And it's working. Parents are taking all (00:26:41) kinds of pledges. Wait until 8th. (00:26:42) Smartphone free childhood. These are (00:26:44) really good organizations. You sign a (00:26:46) pledge and then as soon as people in (00:26:48) your school also have signed, you have a (00:26:50) community. You're all set. (00:26:52) Second norm, no social media before 16. (00:26:55) We have to come to see that talking with (00:26:59) anonymous men from around the world, (00:27:01) some of whom want sex from you, some (00:27:03) want money, some want both. Not a (00:27:06) child-friendly activity, but that's what (00:27:08) it is. All these sites are unverified. (00:27:09) Anyone can go on now. Increasingly, it's (00:27:11) going to be bots. Oh my god, I just I (00:27:13) felt I gave a talk earlier today and one (00:27:15) father said, I can't believe I'm going (00:27:16) to say this sentence. He said, "Yes, my, (00:27:19) you know, my eight-year-old was targeted (00:27:21) by a bot that attacked her while she was (00:27:24) watching a cartoon and it asked her like (00:27:27) what she was wearing and the (00:27:28) conversation evolved to where it said (00:27:30) that it wanted to have sex with her. (00:27:33) How do you even wrap your head around (00:27:35) the fact that this is now part of (00:27:37) American childhood?" So, um, how about (00:27:41) just know? How about just we say there (00:27:43) are you know let's just say 16 is a (00:27:45) minimum age at which you can become you (00:27:48) can make decisions but before then you (00:27:50) need protections um and it's happening (00:27:53) um uh Governor Dantis was the first (00:27:55) state to raise the age to 16. It's being (00:27:58) held up in court so hasn't been (00:27:59) implemented yet but Australia um (00:28:01) Australia uh did it nationally and it's (00:28:04) going to kick in on December 10th and a (00:28:06) lot of countries want to follow suit. A (00:28:07) lot of states want to follow suit. So (00:28:09) again here this is the second norm. (00:28:11) We're making amazing progress just in (00:28:13) the last 12 to 15 months. (00:28:16) Third norm. This is my favorite because (00:28:18) this is the one that's giving us these (00:28:20) incredible incredible stories. We we we (00:28:23) have teachers dancing in the hallways (00:28:25) because we have students talking in the (00:28:26) hallways. This is what you always hear. (00:28:28) They all say laughter in the hallways. (00:28:31) There's a big drop in discipline (00:28:32) problems because why would you lure (00:28:34) someone into the bathroom for an ambush (00:28:37) where you beat the hell out of them if (00:28:38) you can't take a video and post it. (00:28:40) There's really not a lot of reason. And (00:28:42) so as soon as schools go phone free for (00:28:43) the day, violence drops. There's no need (00:28:47) for it. I'll show I think this will (00:28:49) Let's see if this plays. This is a (00:28:50) wonderful one minute video. (00:28:52) >> My school, my state banned the phones. (00:29:00) Today, (00:29:02) all of my students, 100% of them, took (00:29:07) notes in my class, (00:29:09) did their assignment, asked for help (00:29:12) when they got stuck, and turned it in. (00:29:17) And then when they were done, (00:29:20) they talked to each other. (00:29:26) Was it this easy the whole time? (00:29:31) Have we have (00:29:34) I have been pulling my hair out for like (00:29:37) eight years. Has it been this easy of a (00:29:41) solution the whole time? (00:29:45) That's my favorite part. They're like, (00:29:46) and you're not going to believe this, (00:29:48) but they talked to each other. like this (00:29:54) was a revelation that it was possible to (00:29:55) get young people to talk to each other (00:29:57) uh in class. Um so this policy costs (00:30:00) essentially nothing. It's bipartisan. Uh (00:30:03) 19 states uh 19 states have done it the (00:30:06) right way which is bell-to-bell. Uh (00:30:08) about 15 to 18 have done something else (00:30:10) which is mostly just in class time. If (00:30:13) your kid goes to a school where they (00:30:15) can't have their phone in class, but (00:30:17) they can text you in between classes, (00:30:19) guaranteed they're on their phone every (00:30:20) moment between classes and at lunch. So (00:30:22) your state did it wrong. Your kids are (00:30:24) not getting the benefit and you should (00:30:25) push for change. It has to be (00:30:26) bell-to-bell to get the huge benefits (00:30:28) that we're seeing. Uh the final norm is (00:30:32) more independence, free play, and (00:30:33) responsibility in the real world because (00:30:35) this isn't about take away this, take (00:30:37) away this. This is about restore (00:30:38) childhood, reclaim childhood, give the (00:30:40) kids a fun childhood the way most of us (00:30:41) older people had. And it's working. Go (00:30:44) to letgrow.org, or an organization I (00:30:46) co-founded with the Norcanazi to help (00:30:48) communities and schools give more (00:30:50) outdoor play, more free play, more (00:30:51) excitement. (00:30:53) Um, so let me just zoom in just a little (00:30:55) bit to conclude on what a policy (00:30:58) oriented think tank and community uh can (00:31:00) do. Um, and again, this is why I think (00:31:03) why I I'm really pleased to be here at (00:31:05) Heritage. Ronald Reagan created the the (00:31:07) modern Republican party and the (00:31:09) conservative movement bringing in the (00:31:11) evangelicals. And the pillar of that was (00:31:13) family values. That the Republicans were (00:31:15) going to stand for family values and (00:31:17) push back against the threats. And (00:31:18) certainly in Dr. Robert's introduction, (00:31:20) he that was a a great listing of the (00:31:22) threats that are the threats are coming (00:31:24) to the family. Um I came across this bit (00:31:26) of text recently. Does anyone recognize (00:31:27) it? Consider our approach to big tech. (00:31:30) These companies prey on children. (00:31:32) They're they're they're addicting other (00:31:33) people's children. Um, these platforms (00:31:36) fuel mental illness to fray children's (00:31:39) bonds with their parents and siblings. (00:31:41) Federal policy cannot allow this (00:31:43) industrial scale child abuse to (00:31:45) continue. Who wrote that? (00:31:48) Where's that from? Heritage Foundation. (00:31:51) This is this is project 2025. So uh uh (00:31:56) you know so you guys understand you have (00:31:59) I think a very correct understanding of (00:32:02) the predatory nature of this industry (00:32:04) which until now has never been held (00:32:06) responsible. Thousands of children are (00:32:08) dead that would not have been dead. (00:32:10) Hundreds of thousands have depression, (00:32:12) anxiety, eating disorders that would not (00:32:14) have had it. There's never been an (00:32:16) industry with such a body count among (00:32:17) children. And as far as I know, they've (00:32:19) never paid a penny. They have never been (00:32:21) held accountable. There are a lot of (00:32:22) lawsuits, but they haven't lost yet (00:32:24) because the laws are such that they're (00:32:25) able to worm out of it. And so, this (00:32:27) again is a tragedy that has to be fixed. (00:32:30) Part of it has to be legislation and (00:32:32) juristp prudence. And I I hope that and (00:32:35) heritage is a voice for doing that. I'm (00:32:37) really pleased to say to see that (00:32:40) um this is also the biggest political (00:32:42) winner out there because parents all (00:32:44) over are desperate for this. a study I (00:32:46) did with the Harris poll, we asked (00:32:48) American parents of Gen Z about all (00:32:51) these things. Um, I wish uh do you I (00:32:54) wish that this had never been invented. (00:32:56) So, uh, for for Tik Tok, 62% of American (00:33:00) parents of Gen Z said, I wish this just (00:33:02) never existed. The world would be a (00:33:04) better place for my child if this was (00:33:05) never never born. And as you see, Tik (00:33:08) Tok, Twitter, Snapchat, Instagram, (00:33:10) they're up there with alcohol. They're a (00:33:12) little below porn, but they're up there (00:33:14) with alcohol. Whereas like bicycles, 9%. (00:33:18) Lots of kids get hurt on a bicycle, (00:33:20) right? Lots of kids get hurt on a (00:33:21) bicycle, but this is part of growing up. (00:33:23) Parents don't regret that their kids had (00:33:25) bicycles. They really regret that their (00:33:26) kids had Tik Tok, Instagram, and (00:33:28) Snapchat. (00:33:30) Um, and it's getting worse. I mean, if (00:33:31) we don't get on this now about social (00:33:33) media, a steamroller is coming for our (00:33:36) kids. It's already beginning to crush (00:33:37) them. Um, this was just so stunning to (00:33:40) me. Uh, you know, these chat bots are (00:33:41) allowed to talk about sex with your (00:33:43) children. that can have sexual fantasies (00:33:45) with your children. There's an article (00:33:47) in the Wall Street Journal. Um Mark Mark (00:33:49) Zuckerberg specifically gave the order (00:33:51) to at Meta to loosen up the guard rails. (00:33:54) And here's here is a sentence that was (00:33:56) allowed. It gives examples of where the (00:33:58) line is. And so if a chatbot is talking (00:34:00) to an eight-year-old, it is allowed to (00:34:03) engage in romantic or sexual uh sens (00:34:05) sensual conversations such as telling a (00:34:08) shirtless eight-year-old that quote, (00:34:10) "Every inch of you is a masterpiece." (00:34:13) That was in the meta document. They (00:34:16) wrote that as a guideline to say what's (00:34:18) okay. (00:34:20) This is insane that we let this company (00:34:22) get to our children. (00:34:25) And it I mean it just keeps going on. So (00:34:27) I was, you know, preparing this talk a (00:34:28) couple days ago. Yesterday I got this (00:34:29) headline. Okay. Chat GPT is causing (00:34:33) thousands, hundreds of thousands of (00:34:35) adults to have psychotic episodes. How (00:34:38) about we work this into childhood? How (00:34:39) about we push it into every elementary (00:34:41) school classroom? what could go wrong. (00:34:45) So, of course, parents should have the (00:34:47) ultimate responsibility. Parents need to (00:34:49) be able to decide how to raise their own (00:34:51) children. But anyone raising kids today (00:34:53) knows we can't do it. This the world (00:34:56) that we're trying to raise our kids in (00:34:58) makes it so hard to raise kids the way (00:35:00) we want because these the wealthiest, (00:35:04) most powerful companies in history, (00:35:05) freed from all accountability. There is (00:35:07) no other industry that can hurt children (00:35:09) with absolute impunity other than this (00:35:11) one and they do over and over again. Um (00:35:14) we have schools that are pushing edtech (00:35:16) in part because they're pushed by the (00:35:18) companies. Uh we are our our daughters (00:35:20) are have long been exposed to sexual (00:35:21) predation. Now you don't you know it's (00:35:24) of course you tell them don't ever send (00:35:25) a naked photo of yourself. Too late. If (00:35:28) there's a photo the boys in their class (00:35:30) can make it a porn photo or a porn (00:35:31) video. Um, online gambling is destroying (00:35:34) our son's futures. And chat bots, they (00:35:37) don't know. Nobody knows how they work. (00:35:38) They're not programmed. They're grown. (00:35:40) This is a phrase they use. A chatbot is (00:35:42) or an AI, an LLM is grown in the lab, we (00:35:46) don't they're very much like alien (00:35:48) intelligences. And if aliens came down (00:35:50) to Earth tomorrow and we didn't really (00:35:52) understand who they were, would we say, (00:35:55) "Children, go off and play with the (00:35:57) aliens. We don't know who they are, but (00:35:59) go off and play with them." But that's (00:36:00) what we're doing. (00:36:02) So, uh, this is a huge electoral winner. (00:36:06) Any any group, any party that gets on (00:36:08) this, you're going to have huge support (00:36:10) from the whole country and the whole (00:36:11) world. So, uh, we're here to help you. I (00:36:14) have my policy team is here with me. (00:36:16) Casey, where's Casey Mock? Oh, Casey in (00:36:18) the front here. Uh, and Alexa Arnold is (00:36:20) running the movement. I Please come talk (00:36:21) to them afterwards. We're working. We (00:36:24) have model bills for you. Um, we're here (00:36:26) to help. Email us at (00:36:27) policy@anxiousgeneration.com. (00:36:30) Um, so this is my presentation to you. I (00:36:33) I hope I've shown you that there is (00:36:35) damage happening at a level beyond (00:36:37) comprehension, but with collective (00:36:39) action and especially bipartisan across (00:36:42) the whole country, the whole world, we (00:36:44) actually can solve this problem. So I (00:36:47) hope you'll you'll help us. I hope (00:36:48) you'll support us. I hope you'll join (00:36:50) the movement to reclaim childhood. And (00:36:52) here is where you can go for more uh (00:36:54) more information. And now I look forward (00:36:56) to talking with Jay and getting your (00:36:58) questions. Thank you. [applause] (00:37:05) >> You're supposed to (00:37:13) move the furniture here. (00:37:18) >> First of all, John, it is so great to (00:37:19) have you here. It's your book, Anxious (00:37:22) Generation, is one of those books. I was (00:37:24) we were actually at a a large heritage (00:37:27) foundation conference in California when (00:37:29) I was listening to it on the audiobook (00:37:31) in the gym in the mornings listening to (00:37:32) it um and was just absolutely obnoxious (00:37:35) telling people about it as I was going (00:37:37) through the sort of chapters and um a (00:37:39) lot of us have read it and thought a lot (00:37:41) about it uh so you know honestly um some (00:37:44) of the things I wanted to ask you (00:37:45) actually were in your presentation so (00:37:46) I'll just drill down a little bit um and (00:37:48) so I'm trying to think because I can (00:37:50) hear the sort of what I'm going to call (00:37:52) the kind of libertarian objections (00:37:54) this stuff in my in my head and you know (00:37:56) the sort of sort of I guess the devil's (00:37:58) advocate and so somebody can say well (00:38:00) look (00:38:00) >> um you know technological revolutions (00:38:02) have been happening for all of human (00:38:04) history I mean at some point we invented (00:38:06) fire and switch from eating raw to (00:38:08) cooked food right there was the wheel (00:38:11) you know Socrates complained uh in one (00:38:13) of Plato's dialogues about the written (00:38:15) language because it would cause people (00:38:16) to lose their memories (00:38:18) >> the agricultural revolution the (00:38:19) industrial revolution and then all these (00:38:21) things that at least They seem like they (00:38:24) sort of come together in screens and (00:38:26) social media, but we had phones, right? (00:38:28) We've had those, you know, in some form (00:38:30) for a century. We've had screens, people (00:38:32) had TVs, people had computers. Um, (00:38:35) >> why do you think this is different and (00:38:37) not just, okay, this is something that (00:38:39) it's disruptive, but we will adapt to it (00:38:41) given time. (00:38:42) >> That's right. So, um, that is the main (00:38:44) argument used against me that this is (00:38:45) just one more moral panic like all the (00:38:46) previous ones. And in terms of the (00:38:48) public reaction, it is similar. And I am (00:38:50) fermenting, we could call it moral (00:38:53) panic, but it's only panic if it's (00:38:54) unjustified. So the question is, is this (00:38:56) really hurting kids or am I ringing an (00:38:59) alarm bell that has to be rung? And I (00:39:00) should give Gene Twangi credit for (00:39:02) ringing it first in 2017. Um, and (00:39:05) there's a number of differences. The (00:39:06) first is that television sat there and (00:39:10) you watched it. You couldn't take it (00:39:11) with you to school. You couldn't take it (00:39:12) outside. You couldn't take it to the (00:39:13) bathroom. You couldn't take it in the (00:39:14) elevator. Now we have something that has (00:39:16) our kids all the time. Second, there's (00:39:19) no previous moral panic when the kids (00:39:20) said, "We hate this. Liberate us from (00:39:23) it. We can't. We're trapped." But this (00:39:25) one they do. (00:39:26) >> So this one, the kids say they're (00:39:28) trapped. They wish they could get up, (00:39:29) but they can't because then they'll be (00:39:30) alone. So this is the the social (00:39:32) dynamics are different. And the third is (00:39:35) that let's look at how we got out of (00:39:36) these previous technological problems. (00:39:37) So when the automobile was invented, was (00:39:39) beginning to spread, did people say, (00:39:41) well, you know, technology is here to (00:39:43) stay. What are you going to do? Of (00:39:44) course, eight-year-olds are driving and (00:39:46) there no seat belts and they can't see (00:39:48) over the windshield and when they get in (00:39:50) an accident, the glass shatters and (00:39:51) blinds them. But what are you going to (00:39:52) do? It's always been like this. H how (00:39:56) about we have a minimum age for driving (00:39:59) >> and if you're a company making tons of (00:40:01) money from selling cars, how about there (00:40:03) have to be some minimum safety features. (00:40:05) That's the way we adapt, right? (00:40:07) >> And so, uh, yes, the technology is here (00:40:09) to stay. I think overall is doing more (00:40:11) harm than good to adults, but I share a (00:40:14) lot of libertarian sentiments. I'm I'm (00:40:16) not out here telling adults, you should (00:40:17) stop doing things, but I am out here as (00:40:19) a parent and as a citizen saying (00:40:21) companies, you better stop doing this to (00:40:23) our kids because kids are different than (00:40:25) adults. So, I think this is different. (00:40:27) >> And you briefly mentioned this idea of (00:40:29) risky play. You have this great line in (00:40:31) the book and you said we're um we're (00:40:33) overprotective when it comes to the real (00:40:35) world and we're underprotective when it (00:40:37) comes to the virtual world. And I think (00:40:39) this is a absolutely crucial dynamic. I (00:40:41) mean, I think of myself who had a (00:40:43) daughter who happened to go to a school (00:40:44) the last two years that you had to put (00:40:46) the phone away. And I can remember (00:40:48) thinking, (00:40:49) >> well, but you know what? If there's a a (00:40:51) shooter that comes into the school and I (00:40:53) think this is what is happening in the (00:40:55) minds of parents of this age is that (00:40:57) yeah, it seems like that'd be a good (00:40:58) idea all things being equal, but the (00:41:00) world is such a dangerous place. How do (00:41:02) you respond? (00:41:02) >> Yeah. Well, so first of all, what so (00:41:04) there's there's a lot of So I did a lot (00:41:07) of research. I I like I'm a general I'm (00:41:09) a social psychologist, but I just love (00:41:11) reading widely across psychology and (00:41:12) social sciences. And one of the coolest (00:41:14) ideas that I covered in the book is the (00:41:17) idea that um risky play is necessary for (00:41:21) neural development. That there's a (00:41:23) reason why when kids learn to (00:41:24) skateboard, they then start (00:41:26) skateboarding downstairs. They they take (00:41:27) risks. When they climb a tree, they go (00:41:29) higher. You have to get to the point (00:41:30) where you're scared. That's a fe not a (00:41:33) bug. And that's how you learn what you (00:41:35) can do. And that's how you extend your (00:41:36) abilities. And so, uh, when kids are on (00:41:39) a playground, the playgrounds that you (00:41:40) and I grew up on, you could get hurt. (00:41:41) Like, you could fall off the swings. (00:41:43) Okay? Anybody remembers the jungle gym (00:41:45) with the metal bars? Do you remember the (00:41:47) feeling on your chin? Raise your hand if (00:41:48) you remember the feeling on your chin (00:41:50) when you slip and you hit your chin. (00:41:51) Okay? So that's it's bad to hit your (00:41:53) chin, but you need to hit your chin a (00:41:55) couple times in order to re to that's (00:41:58) how we learn is through those failures, (00:42:00) those relatively low low risk failures. (00:42:03) >> And so this research shows that risky (00:42:05) play has antifobic effects. Kids who are (00:42:08) allowed to take risks, they learn how to (00:42:10) not get hurt and then they're less (00:42:12) anxious. But what we've done is we said, (00:42:13) "I don't want you to get hurt." On some (00:42:16) playgrounds, the rules say you can't (00:42:17) have any tree roots anywhere because god (00:42:19) forbid homminid children should run (00:42:21) through a forest. I mean, that would be (00:42:22) terrible. So, um, so if we remove risk, (00:42:25) we're not protecting our kids, we're (00:42:27) making them less safe. (00:42:29) >> Well, and so you you mentioned in the (00:42:31) book, I mean, I I don't know that people (00:42:32) really realize this, but in in many (00:42:34) ways, violent crime, kids being (00:42:37) abducted, it's actually much safer now (00:42:39) than it was a few decades ago. I don't (00:42:41) know that that that's processes for most (00:42:43) people. (00:42:43) >> That's right. Right. And so actually (00:42:44) this brings up what we can call the (00:42:46) third act of the tragedy. You know we I (00:42:48) laid this all out. Act one we lose the (00:42:50) play-based childhood. And only when we (00:42:52) were almost done with the book did we (00:42:53) realize okay why why did we lose the (00:42:55) play-based child? What happened in the (00:42:57) 90s and late 80s. The answer is Robert (00:42:59) Putnham. If you know Robert Putnham's (00:43:01) book bowling alone or you heard the (00:43:02) thesis in the post-war American world (00:43:05) everyone knew their neighbors. It goes (00:43:07) back longer than that but postwar (00:43:08) America really was from a social capital (00:43:10) point of view like the best we'd ever (00:43:12) been. uh people had gone through the war (00:43:14) together. They knew their neighbors. (00:43:16) They knew their community. They trusted (00:43:18) institutions. So you could let kids out. (00:43:20) And you know, I grew up in Scarsdale, (00:43:22) New York, and you know, we were all (00:43:24) riding around on bicycles. And if you (00:43:25) wiped out and somebody got hurt, you (00:43:27) know, you could just knock on a door and (00:43:28) say, "Can you call his mom?" Like people (00:43:30) would help. (00:43:31) >> Um but Putinham describes how we stop (00:43:35) knowing our neighbors. We stop trusting (00:43:37) them. And when we don't when we can't be (00:43:39) raising kids in a community, when it's (00:43:41) every family for themselves, it all (00:43:43) falls on the mother. And the mother will (00:43:45) be judged. If that kid is seen outside, (00:43:47) the mother could literally be sent to (00:43:50) jail. That happened in Georgia last (00:43:51) year. Literally sent to jail because her (00:43:53) 10-year-old walked to a store. Wow. So, (00:43:56) we have to change this legislatively and (00:43:58) and culturally. (00:44:00) >> So, say a little bit about TB's idea of (00:44:02) anti-fragility, which you talk about in (00:44:04) the book. It's absolutely crucial to get (00:44:05) this. (00:44:06) >> Yeah, this that helps on this. My (00:44:07) previous book was called The Coddling of (00:44:09) the American Mind. It was about what I (00:44:10) saw happening on university campuses. I (00:44:12) wrote it with my friend Greg Lupanov. Um (00:44:15) is the president of the Foundation for (00:44:16) Individual Rights and Expression. So I'm (00:44:18) very sensitive to the free speech issues (00:44:19) around around all of this. Um and the (00:44:23) key idea, one of the key ideas we drew (00:44:24) on in that book. So we knew that (00:44:26) something was going wrong with kids born (00:44:27) after 1995. We saw that on college (00:44:30) campuses by 2015. And and we were pretty (00:44:32) confident that part of it was the overp (00:44:34) protection. We didn't know about the (00:44:35) technology back then. We didn't have the (00:44:37) evidence then. So we focused on the (00:44:38) overp protection. The key idea is from (00:44:41) this this kind of wild eccentric NYU (00:44:43) professor Nim Taleb who wrote the book (00:44:45) the black swan. He coined the term (00:44:47) antifragile. Some things are fragile. (00:44:49) You don't give a kid a you know a (00:44:51) toddler a wine glass because it'll (00:44:53) break. Nothing good happens. We give (00:44:55) them a sippy cup which is plastic and if (00:44:57) they drops it it doesn't break but it (00:44:59) doesn't get better. And TB wanted to (00:45:01) know what's the word for things that get (00:45:02) better when you drop them. And there is (00:45:04) no word in English. It's not resilient. (00:45:06) So, we had to make up the word (00:45:07) anti-fragile. (00:45:09) An antiffragile system is like a child (00:45:11) that gets better when it runs around and (00:45:14) falls. It gets better when it tries to (00:45:17) use the stove and it burns itself once (00:45:19) and then never does it again. So, we (00:45:22) need we we we we have to have those (00:45:25) little those small things in order to (00:45:26) make to prepare us for the big things. (00:45:28) That's what anti-fragility is. We've (00:45:29) lost sight of that. (00:45:30) >> Like the immune system is a sort of (00:45:32) obvious example, right? If you just (00:45:34) absolutely put a child in a sterile (00:45:36) environment, that's a disaster. Of (00:45:37) course, if you constantly overexpose (00:45:38) them, it's a disaster. There's some (00:45:40) sweet spot in the middle. (00:45:41) >> That's right. And that's why peanut (00:45:42) allergies have been going up. The cause (00:45:44) of the rise of peanut allergies is our (00:45:45) efforts to avoid peanut allergies. (00:45:50) >> So, I want you to speculate here a (00:45:51) little bit, but I I think there's the (00:45:53) message and the medium. And I think the (00:45:55) thing that was intuitively causal (00:45:56) people, certainly to conservatives, but (00:45:58) I think almost everyone that's apparent (00:46:00) is we think a lot about the messages. We (00:46:01) think about the predators. We think (00:46:02) about the porn, we think about the toxic (00:46:04) ideas that kids get exposed to. Uh or (00:46:07) the sort of nasty messages in comparing (00:46:09) that happens with young girls, (00:46:10) especially on Instagram. (00:46:11) >> Um what about the the medium itself, (00:46:14) about the technology itself? I mean, do (00:46:16) you have a sense that that's a large (00:46:18) part of what we're dealing with? (00:46:19) >> Yes. And actually, it's good it's good (00:46:20) that you put it that way because your (00:46:21) opening question here was something (00:46:22) about the libertarian objections. Let's (00:46:24) let's deal with those directly. (00:46:26) >> Um you know, libertarians generally (00:46:28) don't trust government. They certainly (00:46:29) don't trust government to be the (00:46:30) arbiters of who can say what. And (00:46:32) there's certainly good historical and (00:46:33) recent historical reasons to be very (00:46:35) wary of that. (00:46:36) >> And what I found once I really got into (00:46:38) this issue about the problems with (00:46:40) technology, people assume that I'm (00:46:42) saying, "Oh, regulation. You mean you (00:46:44) want the government to decide who gets (00:46:45) to say what?" Like, no, I don't think (00:46:47) about that. I don't think about content (00:46:49) very much. (00:46:50) >> Um, all the action, most of the action (00:46:53) is in the design. So, I understand why (00:46:55) Meta is not responsible if somebody (00:46:57) promotes puts up a video about how to (00:46:59) kill yourself that they shouldn't be (00:47:01) sued just because it exists. (00:47:03) >> But why did they make an algorithm that (00:47:05) will preferentially send that to my (00:47:07) child if my child shows any interest in (00:47:09) mental health? And why does she get (00:47:11) delused by it? And why do they have all (00:47:13) kinds of things to keep her on far (00:47:14) longer than she wants to keep on? This (00:47:16) is defective product design done to (00:47:19) addict children. They should be held (00:47:21) responsible. has nothing to do with left (00:47:24) or right, nothing to do with censorship. (00:47:26) So I think we all focus on design. Then (00:47:29) all of us liberal, conservative, (00:47:30) libertarian can say you're making a (00:47:33) dangerous product. You should be sued to (00:47:35) oblivion. (00:47:39) [applause] (00:47:44) So you're a social scientist and so I (00:47:46) know I mean I can imagine having written (00:47:48) this book you were there's going to be (00:47:50) some some critics out there right and so (00:47:53) um you know I think the kind of general (00:47:54) objection is okay so there were the (00:47:56) there's sort of social pathologies and (00:47:58) things that seem to follow this (00:47:59) technology but that's that's correlation (00:48:01) you know how do we prove causation and (00:48:02) of course people that say that that know (00:48:05) anything about this should realize we're (00:48:07) not going to have uh randomized control (00:48:09) trials right we're not okay we're gonna (00:48:10) expose these kids to 20 hours a day of (00:48:12) of the internet and we're going to (00:48:14) isolate these. But how do you respond to (00:48:15) think kind of general objection? (00:48:17) >> I'm so glad you asked that because this (00:48:18) is this is really important especially (00:48:19) for legislation and litigation. (00:48:21) >> So the basic argument against me is that (00:48:23) I don't know the difference between (00:48:24) correlation and causation. I show graphs (00:48:27) in chapter one that this happened and (00:48:29) guess what else happened at this point? (00:48:31) Social media was introduced. If that's (00:48:32) all I had, I would be guilty as charged. (00:48:35) We cannot prove what caused an (00:48:37) historical trend, especially in the (00:48:38) social sciences. Fine. Now, let's look (00:48:41) at it from a product safety point of (00:48:43) view. The question on parents mind isn't (00:48:45) what happened in 2012. It's is this (00:48:47) product safe for my child? And is there (00:48:48) evidence of safety or harm? Let's go (00:48:51) through it. Um, is there evidence of (00:48:53) harm? Well, let's ask the people who use (00:48:55) it. The kids say it's harming them. Is (00:48:57) that evidence? I think so. Let's ask the (00:48:59) people who saw the harm happen. The (00:49:00) parents and teachers, they say it's (00:49:02) harming kids. Is that evidence? I think (00:49:04) so. Let's take the companies at their (00:49:06) word. We have thousands and thousands of (00:49:08) pages of their internal reports and (00:49:09) studies. They know they're hurting kids. (00:49:11) They're trying to addict them. They say (00:49:13) that their products are causing all (00:49:15) kinds of of uh uh defects in personality (00:49:18) and mental health. So is a is a signed (00:49:21) confession from the companies about what (00:49:22) they're doing. Is that evidence of harm? (00:49:24) I think so. And now let's get to the (00:49:26) academic evidence. There are four lines (00:49:28) that we're debating about. All four (00:49:30) lines point to a a close association and (00:49:33) two of them are causal. One is the (00:49:35) correlational studies which are the (00:49:37) correlations are are large enough. (00:49:38) They're about as large as most other (00:49:40) things in public health. So the (00:49:40) correlations are there. It doesn't prove (00:49:42) causation. (00:49:43) >> So we do experiments. What do the (00:49:44) experiments show? When you get college (00:49:46) students to reduce their social media (00:49:48) use for at least a week, their levels of (00:49:51) depression go down. Those are randomized (00:49:54) control trials. We have a lot of them. (00:49:56) And almost all of them when you look at (00:49:58) depression and you look at more than a (00:50:00) week, they all show reductions. So it's (00:50:02) kind of case closed at this point. But (00:50:04) wait, there's also the longitudinal (00:50:05) studies that show the right precedence (00:50:07) of order and there are quasi experiments (00:50:09) that show that when highspeed internet (00:50:11) comes to a region of of Spain or Canada (00:50:13) or Germany, um, girls especially go into (00:50:17) psychiatric care more often in the (00:50:19) following years. So we have seven lines (00:50:22) of evidence. I I think I understand the (00:50:25) difference between correlation and (00:50:26) causation. (00:50:27) >> Absolutely. And absolutely any doctor (00:50:29) gives you an antibiotic, if you break (00:50:30) out in hides, well, you're not going to (00:50:32) do a randomized control trial. I'm going (00:50:33) to tell you to stop taking the (00:50:34) antibiotics. So, um, and the biohackers (00:50:36) of course talk about these N equal one (00:50:38) experiments and it's essentially that. (00:50:40) Well, um, why don't you just change your (00:50:41) your macros and see what it actually (00:50:44) does? And so, in principle, anyone (00:50:46) that's not deeply addicted as an adult (00:50:47) could test this for themselves. (00:50:48) >> That's right. And how often do you hear (00:50:50) a story or hear someone say, "Yeah, I (00:50:52) got off social media and boy did I get (00:50:54) depressed. I've never heard that." (00:50:56) [laughter] (00:50:57) >> So true. And so your your chapter eight (00:51:00) in the book which you talked a bit about (00:51:01) I s it was sort of surprised me when I (00:51:03) was reading it um because you yourself (00:51:05) you said look I'm not a religious person (00:51:06) and yet you have this chapter about the (00:51:09) existential and spiritual void uh that (00:51:12) people feel as it's not as if so what (00:51:16) you're not saying is well people have a (00:51:18) spiritual existential void they might (00:51:19) but so they turn to this but that the (00:51:22) participation itself or at least the (00:51:23) addictive is actually causing it. (00:51:25) >> Yeah. No that's I think that's right. Um (00:51:28) [clears throat] (00:51:28) so I've been active in the field of (00:51:30) positive psychology for a long time. Uh (00:51:33) my main work was on moral psychology, (00:51:34) moral development. But I got active in I (00:51:36) was interested in positive moral (00:51:37) emotions. So I thought a lot about (00:51:39) flourishing. What are the conditions of (00:51:40) flourishing and the formulation I came (00:51:42) to in the happiness hypothesis is (00:51:43) happiness comes from between doesn't (00:51:46) come from within you entirely. Doesn't (00:51:47) come from getting things in the world. (00:51:48) Comes from getting the right kind of (00:51:50) embeddedness or connectedness to uh uh (00:51:53) to to um uh to other people. (00:51:57) um to work or something productive and (00:51:59) to something larger than yourself. (00:52:01) That's my formulation in the book. It's (00:52:03) the right kind of between. And every one (00:52:05) of those three is decimated when kids (00:52:07) separate from each other and just (00:52:09) consume content. So yes, I believe this (00:52:12) is causing a spiritual vacuum, a (00:52:14) spiritual starvation. Um and it was when (00:52:17) I was almost done with the book and it (00:52:19) was all about kids and I was very (00:52:20) anchored on what's the evidence like. (00:52:22) So, so I I'm almost done and I realize, (00:52:25) wait, I've been too focused on just like (00:52:26) what I can prove. There's this giant (00:52:28) thing happening that I want to express (00:52:30) and I can't prove it. I don't have data (00:52:32) on spiritual fl. Well, there is some, (00:52:34) but (00:52:35) >> but I I so I I wrote that chapter and it (00:52:38) was like overdue and it was like past (00:52:39) deadline, but it was very important to (00:52:41) me to get that out and that's my (00:52:42) favorite chapter now. I I'm so glad that (00:52:43) I I did it and and I think I expressed (00:52:46) something that we're all feeling. (00:52:47) >> Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk a bit about (00:52:50) boys and I' I've looked into this (00:52:51) myself. So I God protected me from (00:52:54) gaming because I get motion sickness if (00:52:56) I play first-person perspective games (00:52:58) for more than about five minutes. But (00:52:59) not everyone is protected in that way. (00:53:01) And I know there's there's at least (00:53:03) people have an impression that there's (00:53:04) there's some redeeming value in certain (00:53:06) kind of games. And so I know uh young (00:53:08) men that play, you know, say World of (00:53:10) Warcraft or Halo and there is a social (00:53:13) aspect to it in which you can be you can (00:53:15) be playing with friends that are in (00:53:16) other parts of the country, right? And (00:53:18) there's a kind of camaraderie and (00:53:20) there's I think an an experience of (00:53:23) heroism and of bravery that they have in (00:53:26) this way together which is a a (00:53:28) legitimately bonding experience. Now (00:53:30) it's a it's a faximile but um do you (00:53:33) think there's something redemptive there (00:53:34) or what do you think is going on because (00:53:36) that's a different thing than say (00:53:37) Instagram? (00:53:38) >> You're right. It is different when we (00:53:39) let's let's talk let's focus on kids (00:53:41) let's say 10 to 14 year old boys. Um, (00:53:46) and so we could not say that this is (00:53:48) harming boys the same way that social (00:53:50) media is harming girls. It is different. (00:53:51) There are some ev there's some evidence (00:53:52) of some benefits on cognitive abilities. (00:53:55) Certainly, they're social. (00:53:56) >> Games are very, very varied. Some of (00:53:58) these quest games that are cooperative. (00:54:00) So, I I can't slam video games as much (00:54:02) as I can slam social media. (00:54:04) >> But here's the thing that we're (00:54:05) learning. (00:54:06) >> We older people, we think of video games (00:54:08) as a game that you start and then you (00:54:11) play it and then it's over. And when we (00:54:13) look at that, there are some problems (00:54:14) with them. Some of them are addictive. (00:54:16) You know, the violence, it turns out, is (00:54:18) I mean, it's not that it's good, but (00:54:19) it's it's it's the key thing isn't that (00:54:21) they're shooting people. So, so we got (00:54:23) kind of confused focused on the question (00:54:25) of the shooting. Is that the problem? (00:54:28) >> But here's what we're learning. Video (00:54:29) games aren't like that anymore. (00:54:31) >> They're not a consumer product that you (00:54:33) buy and own. It's software as a service. (00:54:36) And so, it's just like social media. So, (00:54:38) if your kid, raise your hand if your (00:54:39) kids's on Roblox. Raise your hand if you (00:54:40) know that your child uses Roblox. Okay, (00:54:42) not a lot of you. That's good. Um (00:54:45) because Roblox is not a video game. (00:54:47) Roblox is a virtual world environment (00:54:49) where strangers, mostly men from around (00:54:52) the world, can create whatever kind of (00:54:54) game they want and your kids wander (00:54:56) around and they can engage with whatever (00:54:58) they want. Um we did a deep dive on (00:55:00) this. We show there's games like Sex (00:55:02) with the Teacher in which you watch a (00:55:03) teacher having sex or you can have sex (00:55:04) with your teacher in this game. You can (00:55:06) be seven and you're having sex with a (00:55:07) teacher with Roblox characters. Um (00:55:10) there's um there are strip clubs. Uh (00:55:13) again, Roblox characters, but you're (00:55:14) stripping and simulating sex. Um two (00:55:16) days after Charlie Kirk was (00:55:18) assassinated, Roblox took down I think (00:55:19) more than a hundred Charlie Kirk shooter (00:55:21) games. (00:55:22) >> So it's a sick sick environment. It's (00:55:24) not a video game (00:55:26) >> and and this is just like, well, what (00:55:27) are you going to do? You know, we had (00:55:29) previous moral panics. Let's just adapt (00:55:30) to this. Yeah. By shutting it down for (00:55:32) children. (00:55:34) >> That's a super depressing thing to end (00:55:36) on. So, I got to ask you um [applause] (00:55:39) I mean, are you optimistic? And if so, (00:55:42) why are you optimistic? (00:55:43) >> Yeah. No, I am wildly optimistic because (00:55:45) who would ever have thought that we (00:55:48) could have 38 states passing (00:55:50) legislation, 19 of them doing it (00:55:51) correctly in a year. (00:55:53) >> And so, the 19 that blew it, they're (00:55:55) going to correct it. And you guys are (00:55:56) going to push them to do that. Um and uh (00:55:58) you know, I've had meetings with in (00:56:00) Congress. There's a lot of support for (00:56:01) this on both sides. So I think you know (00:56:04) especially if we if we you work with (00:56:05) libertarians to work out certain (00:56:07) objections it's all systems go we all (00:56:09) have children we all see the damage we (00:56:11) all need to protect children and the (00:56:13) amazing thing is we can do it and this (00:56:15) is part of look this is part of what (00:56:16) Toko said about America that in you know (00:56:19) he said in in France when there's a (00:56:21) problem you need a bridge built wait for (00:56:23) the king to do it in England when (00:56:25) there's a problem you wait for the (00:56:26) nobles to do it but in America he (00:56:29) traveled around in the 1830s in America (00:56:31) they get together. They have parents, (00:56:33) you know, they have a group. They they (00:56:35) collection. They come up with papers and (00:56:36) they do it. This is what Americans do. (00:56:38) And this is what we're seeing all around (00:56:40) the country. So, I am actually wildly (00:56:42) optimistic. (00:56:42) >> Wonderful. Jonathan Height, everyone. (00:56:44) Thanks. Thank you. [applause] (00:56:52) [applause] (00:56:58) >> [applause] (00:57:00) >> Well, we're now have a a discussion. So, (00:57:02) this event is officially co-sponsored by (00:57:04) two centers. I'm the director of the (00:57:05) Devos Center for Human Flourishing uh (00:57:08) but also uh sponsored by the Center on (00:57:10) Technology and the Human Person. And I (00:57:12) would now like to invite uh my colleague (00:57:14) Wes Hodgeges who is the director of the (00:57:17) technology center uh to come introduce (00:57:19) his panelists. Wes. (00:57:23) >> [applause] (00:57:30) >> Thank you very much, Jay. It's very good (00:57:31) to see you all and be here. Um, I am (00:57:34) delighted to be introducing this (00:57:35) accomplished panel. But the first thing (00:57:37) I want to say is just a tremendous thank (00:57:39) you to to Michael Marinasio, one of our (00:57:41) panelists, um, who is executive director (00:57:43) of the Center for Responsible (00:57:45) Technology, who we wouldn't have this (00:57:46) event without them. They've been a (00:57:48) sponsor, a a partner for this the whole (00:57:50) way through. So, thank you very much, (00:57:51) MICHAEL. (00:57:54) >> [applause] (00:57:57) >> SO I AM GOING TO KICK US off by uh (00:58:00) sharing some bios for our panelists but (00:58:02) in the meantime I would love it if you (00:58:03) guys would take the stage so we can (00:58:05) transition quickly get to these (00:58:06) questions and have a excellent (00:58:08) conversation following those remarks. So (00:58:11) delighted to uh present this (00:58:13) accomplished medical um accomplished (00:58:15) panel of medical and policy (00:58:16) professionals to discuss the harms and (00:58:18) deliberate on solutions in this (00:58:20) civilizational challenge to save our (00:58:22) kids from addiction and tech generated (00:58:25) chronic disease. Uh the first person I'm (00:58:28) delighted to be introducing is Dr. (00:58:30) Victoria Dunley. Uh Dr. Dr. Dunley is an (00:58:33) integrative child psychiatrist and (00:58:35) author of Reset Your Child's Brain, a (00:58:38) groundbreaking book on the neurological (00:58:40) and behavioral impacts of screen time on (00:58:42) children. She has treated hundreds of (00:58:45) youth with conditions such as ADHD, (00:58:48) anxiety, and depression through her (00:58:49) signature electronic fast protocol. Her (00:58:52) clinical work and advocacy have made her (00:58:54) a national voice on how digital overuse (00:58:57) contributes to child mental health to (00:58:59) the child mental health crisis. (00:59:01) Victoria, thank you so much for being (00:59:03) here. Uh, next I'm delighted to (00:59:06) introduce Jennifer Galardi. Jennifer is (00:59:08) a senior policy analyst for Restoring (00:59:10) American Wellness here at the Heritage (00:59:12) Foundation's Devos Center. She has (00:59:14) decades of experience in fitness and (00:59:17) nutrition, uh, working for some of the (00:59:19) most prominent brands to represent (00:59:21) health and wellness initiatives (00:59:22) including Nike, Microsoft, Coca-Cola, (00:59:25) and Comcast. Jennifer, delighted that (00:59:27) you're on stage with us. And next, I (00:59:29) mentioned Michael. Michael serves as (00:59:31) executive director of the center for (00:59:33) responsible technology. With nearly 15 (00:59:35) years in federal politics and two (00:59:37) decades as a technologist, he leads (00:59:39) efforts to promote sensible policy, (00:59:42) disrupt screen overuse culture, and (00:59:44) advocate for human- centered technology (00:59:47) that supports real world experiences and (00:59:49) child development. Thank you again for (00:59:51) being here. Next, and finally, I'd like (00:59:54) to introduce my colleague, Annie (00:59:56) Chestnut Tutor, who is a policy analyst (00:59:58) in our center for technology and the (01:00:00) human person. She focuses on federal and (01:00:02) state policy to protect children online, (01:00:04) strengthen parental rights, and counter (01:00:07) big tech's influence. Annie's research (01:00:09) and advocacy equip policymakers with (01:00:12) practical solutions to restore digital (01:00:14) boundaries and serve family that serve (01:00:17) families and communities. Annie, thank (01:00:19) you for being here. Now, let's get to (01:00:21) the questions. (01:00:26) All right, Dr. Dunley, you are up first. (01:00:30) Um, doctor, you are a physician who (01:00:32) specializes in this field. Uh, can you (01:00:35) help us see this issue through your eyes (01:00:37) for a moment? What has your clinical (01:00:39) practice taught you about the (01:00:41) relationship between screen time and (01:00:43) anxiety, depression, or sleep problems (01:00:46) in children? (01:00:48) So what I'm seeing and what I've you (01:00:51) know I've been doing this for 20 years (01:00:52) now focused on the impact of screen time (01:00:55) on mental health um is that first of all (01:00:58) the acuity is super high now it's very (01:01:01) hard to get kids better unless and until (01:01:04) the screen aspect is addressed. Um, so (01:01:08) clinically what I see is that even (01:01:10) though kids are presenting differently, (01:01:12) like some may have attention issues, (01:01:14) some may have ticks, they might be (01:01:16) coming in depressed, a lot of kids come (01:01:18) in with um mood swings and aggression. (01:01:21) Whatever the issue is, the underlying (01:01:24) problem is that they're in a state of (01:01:25) chronic hyperarousal. So in this kind of (01:01:27) like heightened state of arousal all the (01:01:29) time. So they're um they're like revved (01:01:32) up but exhausted. They're wired and (01:01:34) tired. Um so that depending on their (01:01:36) constitution and how old they are, you (01:01:38) know, it presents different ways. So (01:01:39) it's confusing. So kids are getting (01:01:41) misdiagnosed. Um they're being put on (01:01:43) medication inappropriately. Even if they (01:01:46) need medication, they're being put on, (01:01:48) you know, higher doses or multiple (01:01:50) medications that don't work. Um and then (01:01:53) this spills into other areas like (01:01:55) school. They're struggling in school. Um (01:01:58) and then the interventions at school (01:02:00) don't work. They're very disruptive in (01:02:01) the classroom. So then other kids are (01:02:02) paying the price. So it all comes down (01:02:05) to screens either directly or (01:02:06) indirectly. (01:02:07) >> I feel like revved up and tired is (01:02:09) something that I can relate to as well (01:02:11) and probably most of us. Um would now my (01:02:14) next question is would you be able to (01:02:16) tell uh just from examining a child if (01:02:18) they suffer from electronic screen (01:02:20) syndrome? Um you know what happens to (01:02:23) these addicted kids physiologically? (01:02:26) >> Um well I can almost always tell tell (01:02:29) only because it's universal. like I it's (01:02:32) kind of the default I assume that it's (01:02:34) happening if um if they have any screen (01:02:35) time at all. Um and by the way, a lot of (01:02:38) these problems happen even if the child (01:02:41) is using screens, you know, well below (01:02:43) the recommended limits of one to two (01:02:45) hours a day, some kids, even if they're (01:02:47) using just once a week or twice a week, (01:02:50) um they still have these issues and we (01:02:51) know that it's affecting them because (01:02:52) when we take all the screens away, they (01:02:54) get better. Um so I I'm sorry, I forgot (01:02:57) the original question. Oh, you um the (01:03:00) question is can you can you can you (01:03:02) tell? (01:03:02) >> So a lot of time like I mentioned the um (01:03:04) the presentation varies um but a lot of (01:03:07) times the description from the parent is (01:03:09) that the child's uh um irritable and (01:03:12) they can't focus. They're not motivated. (01:03:14) They're defiant. They have trouble (01:03:16) getting things done. So they're in this (01:03:18) like defensive state because they're (01:03:20) operating from a more primitive part of (01:03:22) the brain. So when you're in that (01:03:24) survival state, which is occurring (01:03:26) because you're being assaulted by screen (01:03:29) stimulation all the time, you it's hard (01:03:32) to think ahead. It's hard to focus. It's (01:03:34) hard to think of another person besides (01:03:35) yourself. So um and we we know this from (01:03:38) the research too is that empathy is (01:03:40) being um you can't be empathic when (01:03:44) you're in that defensive state. And we (01:03:46) know that you know all the way from (01:03:47) little kids to young adults now the (01:03:50) empathy scores are dropping. So all of (01:03:52) these all of these characteristics (01:03:54) whether it's executive functioning, mood (01:03:56) regulation or um empathy, creativity, (01:04:00) all of those things have to do with the (01:04:01) frontal lobe and that's what gets shut (01:04:02) down when you're overstimulated. (01:04:05) >> You know, I find that I am I struggle (01:04:08) with truthfulness when I visit the (01:04:09) dentist. Do you find that your patients, (01:04:11) parents, uh children, are they being (01:04:15) honest with you about their addiction? (01:04:18) >> Goodness, no. I mean, (01:04:19) >> are they honest with themselves? I think (01:04:21) I always tell parents too like lying is (01:04:24) a red flag to me because it's it it's a (01:04:26) sign that the child is living in an (01:04:27) environment where they think the parent (01:04:28) doesn't know what they're doing. So (01:04:30) whether and and I sometimes I see that (01:04:32) when they don't even they're not even (01:04:34) playing video games that much. But just (01:04:35) the fact that they're existing in a (01:04:36) space where their parent doesn't know (01:04:38) what they're doing, it tempts them to (01:04:41) lie and then they start lying in other (01:04:42) ways too. But I think um you know most (01:04:45) kids I'm assuming they're they're going (01:04:47) to start arguing with me that it's not (01:04:49) the problem. So we really work more with (01:04:51) the parents. (01:04:53) >> Understood. Thank you. Uh Jennifer, my (01:04:56) next question is for you. So the Maha (01:04:58) movement emphasizes root cause health (01:05:01) and holistic well-being. How does (01:05:04) excessive screen time undermine these (01:05:06) goals? (01:05:07) >> Um yes. So thank you for the question. I (01:05:10) think one of the biggest things uh (01:05:12) Secretary Kennedy has brought to (01:05:14) awareness with the MAHA movement is this (01:05:16) shift from looking at the body as a (01:05:18) certain part to treat like a heart or a (01:05:22) brain or the gut and this holistic idea (01:05:25) of health and wellness and what it means (01:05:27) to be healthy and well in our society. (01:05:30) Um and really what it means to be human. (01:05:32) There is a lot of that language within (01:05:33) the Maha movement which is why it is so (01:05:36) powerful and bipartisan is because it's (01:05:38) touching all of us on a very human (01:05:40) holistic level. Um he everything kind of (01:05:43) affects the body, the mind and as we (01:05:46) heard um throughout kind of the two (01:05:49) conversations previously the soul and so (01:05:53) the tech affects all of these things as (01:05:56) well. So it fits so nicely and it is (01:05:58) even though it's it's not really pointed (01:06:00) out many times within the MA report. Um (01:06:04) there is I believe um one line on screen (01:06:07) time that suggests the surgeon general (01:06:09) will launch an education and awareness (01:06:12) awareness initiative on the effect of (01:06:14) screens on children and the actions (01:06:16) being taken by states to limit screen (01:06:17) times at school. So that's the specific (01:06:20) policy direction in the second MA (01:06:22) report. However, they do outline the (01:06:25) four biggest drivers of chronic health (01:06:27) conditions. One, poor diet. Um, and we (01:06:30) can we can argue that tech affects that (01:06:32) because we're kind of just in this (01:06:34) mindless numbing of of everything, of (01:06:38) eating, of of the screens. Like, we're (01:06:41) on our screens and we're eating and (01:06:42) nobody's we're not really mindful of (01:06:44) anything we're doing. So, it does affect (01:06:46) diet. Uh, two, chemical exposure. (01:06:49) Some people will go down the path of the (01:06:51) 5G radiation. So well that's a that's a (01:06:54) deep hole that people will go into and (01:06:56) we'll kind of gloss over that because (01:06:57) that's not really the issue of of (01:06:59) today's conversation. But three over med (01:07:02) overmedicalization and this really gets (01:07:04) into maybe more um young adults than (01:07:08) children. But this overmedicalization (01:07:11) for young adults particularly women (01:07:13) there's now these websites called hers (01:07:15) and hymns where all you have to do (01:07:17) you're self diagnosing. I'm I went on a (01:07:20) like test case of one. I went on this (01:07:23) hers website and it took me less than 15 (01:07:26) minutes to diagnose to tell this website (01:07:28) I'm anxious. I'm depressed. Um you know, (01:07:32) of course we all get anxious and (01:07:33) depressed from time to time, but now I (01:07:35) have an appointment with the doctor that (01:07:37) I can go online and they'll be like, (01:07:38) "Here are your SSRIs. Here is your You (01:07:41) know, it it's insane how easily we are (01:07:44) prescribing drugs to young adults and (01:07:48) particularly young women when they're in (01:07:50) the middle of forming what could (01:07:52) possibly be the most important (01:07:53) relationships with of their life, which (01:07:55) is with men and for marriage and family. (01:07:58) And we're disrupting everything about (01:08:00) that. And then four, the lack, this is (01:08:03) the obvious one, lack of activity and (01:08:05) chronic stress. Just the fact that we're (01:08:07) saying children have chronic stress. I (01:08:10) mean, the thing that stressed me out the (01:08:12) most when I was a child is, you know, (01:08:15) did I get to my playd date on time? I I (01:08:16) mean, chronic stress for somebody under (01:08:20) the age of 18 is just an insane idea. (01:08:23) And this is what tech is doing. So, I (01:08:26) think even though it's not specifically (01:08:28) in the report, it touches on every (01:08:31) single issue of chronic disease and (01:08:34) that's why it's so impactful. I think (01:08:36) maybe we could do a better job a little (01:08:39) bit in the maha movement of focusing on (01:08:41) this and that will be something I would (01:08:43) like to do um as part of this movement (01:08:46) and make sure it is at the forefront (01:08:47) right up there with glyphosate right up (01:08:50) there with the food supply and the food (01:08:54) pyramid and the food guidelines. So I do (01:08:56) think this is this is a crucial part of (01:08:58) the movement and secondly because of the (01:08:59) moms. I mean, that's really what we've (01:09:01) seen the Maha be so the Maha movement be (01:09:04) so impactful is is the the force of a (01:09:09) mother's love and protection for their (01:09:11) children. (01:09:12) >> So then maybe to summarize some of what (01:09:14) you said. Yes. Go moms. (01:09:18) We should clap more. We should clap more (01:09:19) for the moms. Um so maybe to summarize (01:09:22) what you said there, are you um are you (01:09:25) making the case that um a great deal or (01:09:29) almost all of the Mahal reports are (01:09:31) either directly or indirectly stemming (01:09:33) from uh screen exposure in children? (01:09:35) >> I don't know if they're stemming from, (01:09:36) but I think they're intertwined with and (01:09:39) if we I think we could maybe do a better (01:09:41) job with messaging. However, hopefully (01:09:44) and I I do believe Casey Means will be (01:09:46) confirmed on Thursday. there is not (01:09:48) going to be a more powerful messenger (01:09:49) than a new mother on this issue and that (01:09:52) you know maybe they wrote that line with (01:09:54) her in mind that this would be one of (01:09:56) the issues that the surgeon general (01:09:58) takes up and we know that the surgeon (01:10:00) general really doesn't have much policy (01:10:02) authority. They are kind of the speaking (01:10:05) messenger of HHS and she can be a very (01:10:08) powerful tool um in this fight against (01:10:11) of the of big tech. (01:10:13) >> Absolutely. My my son is two and a half (01:10:16) years old. I should have put in the (01:10:17) calendar the day he was able to use my (01:10:20) phone. Two and a half. And he must have (01:10:22) been in his first year life. Um, (01:10:25) wonderful. Well, thank you so much, (01:10:26) Jennifer. Dr. Dunley, I've got another (01:10:28) question for you. So, in in your (01:10:30) clinical experience, how does recovery (01:10:32) look like for children um who undergo (01:10:34) digital detox? Um, how quickly do health (01:10:37) and behavior outcomes change and how (01:10:40) frequent is there a relapse? (01:10:42) So, it's actually pretty fast and we do, (01:10:44) you know, we do some preparing, but we (01:10:47) go cold turkey. I've just learned over (01:10:49) the years that a lot of times parents (01:10:50) want to go slowly and it just doesn't (01:10:51) work. Um, so we go cold turkey and with (01:10:55) younger kids really within a couple of (01:10:57) days, you start to see a difference in (01:10:58) their mood and their behavior. Um but (01:11:01) even for teenagers within a week or into (01:11:03) the second week um unless someone's (01:11:06) really really addicted then it may take (01:11:08) be more weeks but really by the second (01:11:10) week almost everybody will start to (01:11:11) improve and you see better eye contact. (01:11:13) They're smiling more. Their mood's (01:11:14) better. Kids will come out of their room (01:11:16) more. They're more relaxed. They're (01:11:17) nicer to their siblings. They start (01:11:19) reading more. Um so all these things (01:11:21) across the board their grades can go up (01:11:23) pretty dramatically and their their (01:11:25) reading levels can go up within a you (01:11:26) know couple months. It's very dramatic (01:11:29) and it improves a lot of things in a lot (01:11:31) of different areas. But if you think (01:11:32) about um like what the screens are doing (01:11:35) in terms of like desynchronizing the (01:11:37) body clock um desensitizing the dopamine (01:11:40) pathways (01:11:41) um increasing the stress hormones like (01:11:44) and it it changes blood flow in the (01:11:46) brain and like excitability it changes (01:11:48) serotonin levels everything. So when all (01:11:50) of that stuff normalizes (01:11:52) um you see pretty dramatic changes. (01:11:55) >> Wonderful. Well, I think that should (01:11:57) give us some hope. (01:11:58) >> Yes. (01:11:58) >> Oh, wait. Sorry. Um, and then in terms (01:12:00) of relapse, you know, of course, some (01:12:02) people will keep um like abstaining (01:12:06) longer term, especially if their child (01:12:08) has a lot of uh risk factors. Other (01:12:11) people try to re reintroduce too soon (01:12:13) and then they kind of backslide and (01:12:15) then, you know, we come back to the (01:12:16) table and sometimes do another fast or (01:12:18) sometimes um just cut back again. But my (01:12:22) rule of thumb is generally like whatever (01:12:24) they're doing in that currently, they (01:12:26) need to be doing like 10% of what (01:12:28) they're doing currently. That's kind of (01:12:29) like a rule of thumb that I've realized (01:12:31) over time. (01:12:33) >> Thank you. Uh Jennifer, back to you. Um (01:12:36) my question is, how has the use of (01:12:38) social media affected childhood (01:12:40) wellness? (01:12:41) >> Oh jeez. (01:12:42) >> As we've seen in the previous (01:12:43) presentation, (01:12:44) >> how hasn't it? Um well, like Dr. Height (01:12:47) said, he talked about the rewiring of (01:12:49) the brain. I like to think of it as well (01:12:52) as a rewiring of the culture in so many (01:12:55) ways. There was a wonderful op-ed in the (01:12:57) Washington Post by Governor Spencer Cox (01:13:00) um what he called the consequences of (01:13:02) America's moral drift that consumerism (01:13:05) and as we've so aptly worded it the (01:13:07) addiction economy because it is an (01:13:09) addiction just like alcohol um like you (01:13:12) said what's the first the first step has (01:13:14) to be acknowledging you have the problem (01:13:16) right you will you will people will go (01:13:18) in there and lie about their phone usage (01:13:20) I think I see myself like I don't even (01:13:21) want to look at my screen time because I (01:13:23) don't want to be confronted with the (01:13:24) reality of what I've done during the (01:13:26) day. Um, but consumerism and the (01:13:28) addiction economy are undermining the (01:13:30) republic and and I don't think that's a (01:13:32) scare tactic. I don't think that's a (01:13:35) moral panic. I think that's true. Um, it (01:13:38) it's I think we've lost as a culture (01:13:41) things of the spirit and this speaks to (01:13:43) the soul part of it. Um, that the things (01:13:46) that once defined our our culture and (01:13:48) father Josiah Trenum Trenum has recently (01:13:51) said and again it sounds like an (01:13:53) exaggeration. I don't think it is (01:13:54) grotesque enslavements to the passions (01:13:57) which are stirred by internet content (01:14:00) which is so seductive and so wicked. (01:14:02) Truly the devils have us. I think that's (01:14:05) true. Um it's an upside down world as CS (01:14:09) Lewis called it. You know the kind of (01:14:11) Kardashian plastics and makeup and (01:14:13) attire. (01:14:15) I (01:14:17) I'm hesitant to even say it because (01:14:18) we've probably seen it. But even the (01:14:20) fake kind of like pubic hair that she (01:14:23) sells, it's disgusting. Like I can't (01:14:26) even that's amplified on social media. (01:14:29) The fake and the the plastic, those (01:14:32) things are amplified and the realistic (01:14:35) things are depressed. Meaning, you know, (01:14:38) you can now not call somebody obese (01:14:41) because that could hurt their feel. the (01:14:43) actual real problems are depressed and (01:14:47) the fake and the fake is amplified um (01:14:50) and it and then we celebrate kind of (01:14:53) obesity now you can't actually call it (01:14:55) out the whole world is inverted on (01:14:57) social media and so it's inverting the (01:14:59) whole culture particularly with girls um (01:15:03) because I am a a young lady and not a (01:15:06) young lady anymore but I know the (01:15:08) difference of what you know when I was (01:15:09) younger and growing up it was just it (01:15:12) was um magazines of of beautiful women. (01:15:15) At least that was something to aspire to (01:15:17) and it was real. These were real women. (01:15:19) Now we've got fake women that young (01:15:22) girls are trying to aspire to that (01:15:23) they'll never obtain. Um and it's and (01:15:27) it's the the other article I read just (01:15:29) the last weekend in Wall Street Journal (01:15:31) was girl take your meds. It's the new (01:15:33) social status to be on SSRIs. It's (01:15:36) bizarre. I can't even I can't even I (01:15:39) don't need to see data. I'm sorry. I (01:15:41) apologize to all the clinicians around (01:15:43) here. I don't need to see data to know (01:15:45) that there's something wrong. And I (01:15:46) think some of us um you know need to be (01:15:49) those cultural forces. Moms, it's like I (01:15:51) don't need to see the data. I see what's (01:15:52) happening every day in my life. Um so (01:15:55) don't tell me that. Well, science, the (01:15:58) libertarians, well science, you know, (01:15:59) free speech I I get a little passionate (01:16:02) about what it's doing to our girls. Um (01:16:05) and uh you know the fact that it's now (01:16:07) cool to be on psych meds and the new (01:16:10) norm it's this whole rewiring of the (01:16:13) culture. Um and that this is why I think (01:16:16) people in the mahab movement have come (01:16:18) to understand Casey mean or Cali means (01:16:21) uh Casey's brother has said many times (01:16:24) it's a spiritual battle and I believe (01:16:26) that's what we're facing with tech like (01:16:28) father Josiah Trenum has said it's the (01:16:30) devils have us (01:16:32) >> and that seems to be a a core tenant of (01:16:34) the maha movement is the adherence to (01:16:37) truthfulness (01:16:38) um is in the face of you know the (01:16:41) experiences that you described being (01:16:43) able to say Yes, we can say something (01:16:45) about health. (01:16:46) >> Yeah. And what it means to be human. (01:16:48) Like this is not these kinds of (01:16:50) relationships. What I what I love about (01:16:52) being a part of this movement and I'm (01:16:54) seeing some of some friendly faces in (01:16:56) the in the audience is there are such (01:16:58) real connections. I feel that despite (01:17:00) what side of the political aisle we're (01:17:02) on, they it just feels very authentic. (01:17:06) I'm sure Jay can can uh speak to this as (01:17:09) well and agree with me and McKenzie. um (01:17:12) that whenever we're together, it's we're (01:17:15) doing ser what we believe to be serious (01:17:18) policy work, but it's a lot of fun and (01:17:20) it's just it's based on human connection (01:17:23) and and you know, this is why it brought (01:17:26) together people like me who are quasi (01:17:30) hippies from California and (01:17:32) homeschooling moms and it's it's because (01:17:34) it's about being human. (01:17:36) >> Yeah. And it takes a strong imagination (01:17:38) to view technology in today's age as (01:17:40) something that doesn't subvert that. Um (01:17:44) it's why we're here. So um Dr. Dunley, (01:17:46) one more question for you. Um what level (01:17:49) of daily screen use should public health (01:17:52) agencies recommend as a safe upper limit (01:17:55) for children? And is this an unhelpful (01:17:58) way to communicate restraint? (01:18:00) I I do find that that's unhelpful (01:18:03) because first of all I think it's (01:18:05) different for different kids. I mean (01:18:06) some kids like I mentioned really can't (01:18:09) tolerate any at all. I mean everybody (01:18:12) would do better growing up with zero. Um (01:18:15) but I think to me like the gold standard (01:18:17) is the way that I do it very (01:18:19) methodically is by you know having that (01:18:21) four-week fast and then seeing what the (01:18:24) child can tolerate and doing it very (01:18:26) slowly like 15 minutes on the weekend or (01:18:28) something like that. Um, and then you (01:18:30) can see, you know, some children will (01:18:32) decompensate right away and some takes (01:18:34) longer. But that's, you know, again, but (01:18:37) at that point we're like, well, why are (01:18:38) you using it at all, you know, I mean, (01:18:40) they're going to get exposure in school (01:18:42) no matter what. So, um, I feel like at (01:18:45) least the the older um guidelines of (01:18:48) less than one to two hours a day, at (01:18:50) least that was something you could point (01:18:51) to. Now the guidelines have just totally (01:18:54) devolved into, you know, oh well just (01:18:57) make sure you get enough sleep and (01:18:58) exercise and and there's really not much (01:19:00) guidance at all. Um so to me I always (01:19:03) just say to every family like you can do (01:19:04) your own experiment. Do this first, see (01:19:06) what changes you see. You don't have to (01:19:07) believe me. Do it yourself and then go (01:19:09) from there. (01:19:11) >> Thank you. That no that's very (01:19:12) instructive. Um um Jennifer, another (01:19:15) question. If you were designing a (01:19:17) federal wellness strategy, um, how would (01:19:20) screen time reduction be integrated (01:19:22) alongside the other pieces like (01:19:24) nutrition and exercise? (01:19:27) >> Jay, maybe we should put it in the food (01:19:28) guidelines. [laughter] (01:19:30) >> It really is. I Who mentioned it's we we (01:19:33) take it it's it's something we take in. (01:19:35) It's something that either nourishes us (01:19:37) or poisons us. So, um, I'm I am not the (01:19:42) clinical person. And I don't know the (01:19:43) technical, you know, how much time it (01:19:45) should be, but I do believe that maybe (01:19:47) it should be treated as we treat the (01:19:49) food guidelines of of something that (01:19:50) we're taking into our body that is that (01:19:52) is going to either nourish us (01:19:55) >> or or poison us. (01:19:57) >> And I I don't see any of it nourishing. (01:19:59) I think all of it is like junk food. So (01:20:02) there's is there a safe amount of junk (01:20:04) food? I mean, the best answer is that (01:20:05) you shouldn't have any junk food. But so (01:20:07) I to me like there's no like there's no (01:20:10) safe level. I would I would say that (01:20:11) with social media, but isn't China using (01:20:14) it as an ed their their version of Tik (01:20:16) Tok is is like National Geographic, you (01:20:19) know, it's it might be nourishing on (01:20:21) some level with restrictions of age (01:20:23) limits. Um, you know, I I do watch a lot (01:20:26) of spiritual conversation though. I'm an (01:20:28) adult, but I watch a lot of spiritual (01:20:30) conversations on YouTube. Maybe we can (01:20:32) feed that to our kids. Um, I don't know. (01:20:35) Again, I'm not the clinical person. for (01:20:37) for the most part I see mostly junk on (01:20:39) I'm not on Tik Tok so I can't say if (01:20:42) there's any usefulness for that but I I (01:20:44) do think we need to to look at you know (01:20:47) that's where I would look at the data (01:20:48) I'm not that's not me but um but I would (01:20:52) say we should consider it as food as (01:20:54) nourishment (01:20:56) >> or not (01:20:56) >> exposure (01:20:57) >> or not as an exposure (01:20:58) >> I mean it is true that China by their (01:21:01) actions they recognize what's at risk (01:21:03) and in their technological products and (01:21:05) what's being put in front of their (01:21:06) children. They do a massive amount of (01:21:08) control on that. You know, we we do not (01:21:11) view the human person the same way as (01:21:12) the Chinese Communist Party does and we (01:21:14) shouldn't. Um but they recognize the (01:21:16) threat and we should too. Um all right, (01:21:19) Dr. Dunley, one more question and then (01:21:21) I'm going to throw some questions to our (01:21:23) other to our to the rest of the panel. (01:21:25) Um Dr. Dunley, uh let's talk about junk (01:21:28) food. Um you have covered how uh the (01:21:32) psychological effects of screen abuse (01:21:34) are uh some they're independent of what (01:21:36) kids are actually consuming just the (01:21:38) number of hours as opposed to what's in (01:21:39) front of them. But let's talk about what (01:21:41) is in front of them. I'm curious how (01:21:43) frequent are your patients suffering (01:21:45) from exposure uh to porn at an early age (01:21:48) or dependence on AI products like chat (01:21:52) bots for their social and emotional (01:21:54) well-being and what conclusions do you (01:21:56) draw about these conditions? (01:21:59) Um I think you know in my experience and (01:22:03) I'm sure you know you guys agree as well (01:22:05) from ScreenStrong. Um the kids are (01:22:08) getting exposed younger and younger. Um (01:22:11) people often throw out that number that (01:22:13) you know by the time children are 12 (01:22:15) like one and three has already been (01:22:16) exposed to porn. But every time I give a (01:22:18) talk somebody raises their hand at the (01:22:20) during the Q&A someone says my (01:22:22) six-year-old just got exposed in the (01:22:23) classroom. This just happened at my (01:22:25) son's school and um happened it was with (01:22:28) first and second graders and we have a (01:22:30) phone free school by the way. It still (01:22:32) happened in the afterchool program. Um (01:22:35) so it's just it's extremely common. Um (01:22:40) and and then what I'm seeing with the (01:22:42) young men um is that the the porn (01:22:46) addiction is is so prevalent it's (01:22:48) unbelievable. And so like we spend a lot (01:22:51) of time trying to unwind that whole (01:22:53) thing and that you know takes a lot of (01:22:54) people involved, a lot of resources just (01:22:56) to turn that around. Um so I think it's (01:22:59) extremely common and I think it's next (01:23:01) level like the the um addiction piece of (01:23:04) the porn like the constant stimulation (01:23:06) and how it's really hijacking all of the (01:23:10) u sexual drives and instinctual things (01:23:12) is um it's really like heroin. So I (01:23:15) think being able to have conversations (01:23:17) with parents about like how addictive it (01:23:19) is and how it changes the brain it does (01:23:22) interestingly the porn the effects the (01:23:24) imaging studies looking at porn video (01:23:27) games and social media it all looks very (01:23:29) similar. So there's the brains are less (01:23:32) connected and there's atrophy um of the (01:23:35) gray matter and it's and all three are (01:23:38) you know all associated with changes in (01:23:41) um depression and anxiety and lower (01:23:44) relational abilities. (01:23:47) >> And if we can't unite to be against (01:23:49) porn, what are we what are we doing (01:23:50) here? Um um do you have any comments on (01:23:55) anything you've seen in your clinical (01:23:57) practice regarding AI use and (01:23:59) dependency? (01:24:00) >> Um I I think maybe because I have you (01:24:03) know by the time they get to me they're (01:24:04) they have somebody or and also probably (01:24:06) have a therapist too but um I'm not (01:24:08) seeing as many kids personally that are (01:24:10) using like the chat bots. What I'm (01:24:12) seeing more is the cheating in school (01:24:14) and just using AI. um you know kids are (01:24:18) exhausted and then they they go to AI to (01:24:21) solve all their problems. That's what (01:24:22) I'm seeing is like this dependency on it (01:24:25) from that way and they can't even they (01:24:27) know it they don't want to be doing it (01:24:28) they still (01:24:29) >> they're tired so they just use it you (01:24:31) know. (01:24:32) >> Yeah. I would draw the audience's (01:24:34) attention to uh the case of Adam uh (01:24:37) Reigns who started by using an AI (01:24:40) product for homework and it ended up uh (01:24:44) encouraging enabling uh (01:24:48) his uh his suicide. So, um, read it. Uh, (01:24:53) let's go to the rest of our panel. Uh, (01:24:55) Michael, uh, Annie, you've been very (01:24:56) patient with me. Michael, um, as our, (01:25:00) uh, you know, token technologist on on (01:25:03) the panel, what do you see as the most (01:25:05) alarming or urgent harms that the public (01:25:08) underestimates here? (01:25:10) >> Thanks, Wes. Dr. used a word citizenship (01:25:15) and citizenship is really at the core uh (01:25:18) of what we talk about at the center for (01:25:19) responsible technology. We consider (01:25:22) these harms to be a national security (01:25:24) threat. What do I mean like that? I'm (01:25:26) going to draw some lines. Uh due to the (01:25:28) growing amounts of screen time following (01:25:30) the great rewiring that you saw just saw (01:25:31) with Dr. Height, uh kids are not (01:25:33) exercising, they're not socializing, (01:25:35) they're not sleeping, they're not (01:25:37) reading, right? Uh this is a recipe for (01:25:40) a national disaster. Let me give you my (01:25:43) math. So, anxious, lonely, addicted, (01:25:46) exhausted kids turn into anxious, (01:25:48) lonely, addicted, exhausted adults. Uh, (01:25:51) these adults are, by the way, they're (01:25:53) not dating. They're not forming families (01:25:56) and procreating. Uh, everything is going (01:25:59) south. And so, these are these are our (01:26:01) future citizens, right? These are the (01:26:03) people that are going to have to make (01:26:04) the hard decisions when the rest of us (01:26:07) die out. And so, this impacts GDP. This (01:26:10) impacts our military prowess, (01:26:13) international competitiveness, (01:26:15) innovation, you name it. All of these (01:26:17) things rely on inventors and doctors and (01:26:20) legislators and people that have been (01:26:22) shaped by real world learning. And so, (01:26:26) you know, a lot of this discourse comes (01:26:28) back to, oh, we got to beat China, (01:26:30) right? The nation's report card just (01:26:32) came out last week or two weeks ago, (01:26:34) lowest scores in the history of (01:26:36) measurement, right? And so my question (01:26:38) for for everybody is, you know, what's (01:26:41) the point of winning a race if you have (01:26:42) nobody to hand the baton to at the end (01:26:44) of the day. And so from my view, uh, (01:26:47) we've got to take this real world, real (01:26:49) people learning seriously, otherwise (01:26:51) we're going to kiss our great nation (01:26:52) goodbye. So I I I don't think the public (01:26:55) fully realizes how the magnitude of the (01:26:57) crisis. (01:26:58) >> Can I can I just jump in here really (01:27:00) quick? Bouncing off of that, (01:27:03) >> there are political ramifications to (01:27:04) this, too, as Dr. Hy point out. Um you (01:27:07) have a a a generation that feels that (01:27:10) their life is meaningless and when (01:27:12) people feel their life is meaningless (01:27:14) they are more likely to vote for a Zoron (01:27:16) Mandami that says we are going to give (01:27:18) your life meaning and that's how we have (01:27:21) you know they they're saying they're (01:27:22) pointing to a lot of it's because of (01:27:24) immigration that these people are voting (01:27:26) that way in New York but it's also a lot (01:27:27) of young people that feel despondent and (01:27:30) that their life doesn't have meaning. (01:27:31) Well, we're going to give you stuff and (01:27:33) maybe that'll give you life meaning. So, (01:27:35) I just want to kind of jump on that and (01:27:36) and say it has real world political (01:27:38) ramifications as well. (01:27:39) >> And I think when that meaning (01:27:40) disappears, they're lonely again, (01:27:43) >> right? Yeah. Well, you're you're not (01:27:46) going to find a conservative message (01:27:47) that says you will find yourself through (01:27:49) politics. Um, (01:27:51) wonderful. Thank you. Um, and Michael, (01:27:54) you know, are are you making the case (01:27:55) that, you know, my uh poorly spent years (01:27:58) in my 20s on video games didn't prepare (01:28:00) me uh for for the military or to, you (01:28:04) know, be an astronaut? (01:28:05) >> I was going to say they may have (01:28:06) prepared you to speak on this panel or (01:28:07) moderate the panel, but uh no, I mean, I (01:28:11) have the same background, played video (01:28:13) games for very many years, and uh you (01:28:15) know, I don't look back on it with (01:28:17) necessarily regret. There are much worse (01:28:19) things I could have done with my time, (01:28:20) but there are also tremendously better (01:28:22) things I could have done with my time. (01:28:24) Right. (01:28:25) >> No, I I can't echo that comment enough. (01:28:27) And I even told my team the other day (01:28:28) that I have more hours on Steam than all (01:28:30) of them combined, and it is a big regret (01:28:32) of mine. Um, all right. Well, uh, (01:28:36) speaking of which, Annie u, and question (01:28:38) uh for for both Annie and Michael is (01:28:42) which policy tools now now you described (01:28:44) it some. what which policy tools look (01:28:46) most promising to you for actually (01:28:48) curbing childhood screen addiction? And (01:28:50) Annie, let's start with you. (01:28:51) >> Yeah. Well, Dr. Height and fellow (01:28:54) panelists have made it clear that we are (01:28:56) in a crisis and parents need help. And (01:29:01) yes, we have a growing consensus (01:29:04) fortunately about delaying phones and um (01:29:09) delaying social media. But as like some (01:29:12) of the analogies that Dr. height shared. (01:29:14) We aren't just saying, "Hey, let's (01:29:16) gather together and let's collectively (01:29:17) decide we're going to delay giving our (01:29:19) kids alcohol or we're going to delay (01:29:22) letting them drive." Like, we need we (01:29:23) also do need laws and these companies do (01:29:26) need to be held accountable. And so, I (01:29:28) think um two there kind of two different (01:29:32) ways to go about it. I think one is (01:29:34) cutting off access and the other is um (01:29:38) changing the design systems and putting (01:29:41) restrictions on what sort of design (01:29:44) features can be allowed for uh services (01:29:49) platforms that kids can interface with. (01:29:52) Um, so there's a a growing um (01:29:56) consistence with age verification (01:29:59) um online because we we have that in the (01:30:02) real world, the you know physical world. (01:30:04) You know, kids can't um go into most (01:30:07) bars. Usually have to be 18 or 21 or (01:30:10) can't go into a strip club or um an (01:30:13) adult like video store. and but there's (01:30:16) been a loophole online and porn is at (01:30:20) their fingertips and now it's becoming (01:30:22) even more accessible. It's not just the (01:30:25) pornography websites, but on social (01:30:28) media, they've found creative ways to um (01:30:32) the like Only Fans and other adult (01:30:35) actors to um to start posting some (01:30:41) content on social media to entice users (01:30:43) to go to their external page. So to (01:30:46) date, 25 states have passed laws (01:30:50) requiring age verification for online (01:30:52) pornography websites. Uh we had a huge (01:30:55) win this summer when the Supreme Court (01:30:57) upheld Texas's age verification law and (01:31:02) um saying that it did not violate First (01:31:05) Amendment rights and that adults do not (01:31:07) have a First Amendment right to avoid (01:31:10) age verification. (01:31:12) Um so with this uh we have the pathway (01:31:15) to bring this nationwide because we need (01:31:18) it in all 50 states and ultimately need (01:31:21) a federal solution. Um and then with (01:31:24) design features the kids online safety (01:31:26) act that I think was mentioned earlier. (01:31:29) So that is putting limitations (01:31:32) um and telling social media platforms (01:31:34) that they cannot use addictive and (01:31:37) deceptive design features for accounts (01:31:41) for minors for kids. So um the these (01:31:44) types of features like the (01:31:46) recommendation based algorithms and the (01:31:48) endless feeds, the push notifications (01:31:53) um you know uh likes and those are all (01:31:56) like dopamine triggers. (01:31:59) for, you know, that quick pleasure. (01:32:02) And um again, like this bill, it's not (01:32:04) about what people are posting, but it's (01:32:07) about the algorithm, how it like it (01:32:09) praise on uh the user psychology and (01:32:13) feeds content based on their previous (01:32:18) browser history, views, likes to keep (01:32:20) them on the platform for as long as (01:32:23) possible. Um then we also have like app (01:32:27) store age verification um and the app (01:32:31) store accountability act and this is (01:32:34) requiring (01:32:35) um kids uh apps to require parental (01:32:39) consent for kids to download and so it (01:32:41) just like send a notification to the (01:32:44) parent saying you know okay your child (01:32:46) wants to in u download it's Instagram (01:32:48) yes or no and this is um I say a great (01:32:52) policy that is putting (01:32:54) parents more in the driver's seat and so (01:32:56) that they are actually having more of (01:32:58) like a technological means to have a say (01:33:01) in what their child's online experience (01:33:04) is because it can't otherwise if it's (01:33:06) just only about you know okay well don't (01:33:09) let them have a phone don't let them (01:33:11) have social media then it's it's kind of (01:33:12) like all or nothing and so when they are (01:33:16) actually on these platforms we there (01:33:18) needs to be ways for parents to say yes (01:33:21) or no and to have a say and the settings (01:33:25) for their child's account. (01:33:28) >> Thank you, Annie. And Michael, is there (01:33:29) any policy that you would point to is (01:33:31) something that you appreciate? (01:33:32) >> Yeah, I mean everything everything Annie (01:33:34) said. Uh app accountability act 100% (01:33:37) bell-to-bell bans in schools 100%. Uh I (01:33:40) would tack on a couple of, you know, (01:33:43) small ideas here. You know, Senator (01:33:45) Holly just came out with a bill (01:33:46) yesterday, uh heavily heavily (01:33:48) restricting attacking the use of chat (01:33:50) bots with minors. You know, I would say (01:33:53) that something really simple that we (01:33:54) could do tomorrow that I feel like (01:33:57) almost everybody would agree to would be (01:33:59) removing the first person perspective, (01:34:01) the I and the me from chat bots. Besides (01:34:05) providing marketing, (01:34:09) besides providing lost, besides (01:34:12) providing marketing attention and (01:34:13) getting people sucked in and lured and (01:34:15) addicted to these programs, it doesn't (01:34:16) actually have any benefit. Um, you (01:34:19) mentioned Adam Rain uh a couple of (01:34:21) minutes ago. Like the chatbot said he (01:34:23) was preparing his noose and it said, (01:34:25) "You're not invisible. I see you. You (01:34:28) know, you matter to me." Those are sick (01:34:30) and twisted things that should never be (01:34:32) said to a kid or to adult, right? And (01:34:35) so, you know, I would codify that in (01:34:37) state policy or federal policy tomorrow. (01:34:40) Uh, these companies wouldn't like it, (01:34:41) but it would be it would be very simple (01:34:43) and very effective. The other thing I (01:34:45) want to talk about is we have to find (01:34:48) more ways for parents to wholesale opt (01:34:52) out of these harms. Okay. So what do I (01:34:55) mean by that? Uh thank you Dr. Height (01:34:57) for the elevation of this issue. Parents (01:34:59) are waking up to social media. They're (01:35:01) waking up to smartphones particularly in (01:35:03) schools. Um but there's still a lot of (01:35:05) other areas they're struggling in. (01:35:06) Right? They're struggling in schools. (01:35:07) They're struggling to get edtech and (01:35:10) still screens out of schools. Uh they're (01:35:12) struggling to get them out of libraries, (01:35:14) restaurants. I mean, there's even (01:35:15) screens in gas stations now, right? It's (01:35:17) crazy. I can't even hear myself think at (01:35:19) a gas station when I'm pumping the gas. (01:35:21) And so, you know, I think sitting here (01:35:24) speaking at the Heritage Foundation, (01:35:26) we're speaking for my own organization. (01:35:28) I'm not saying that all of you guys need (01:35:30) to have screenfree uh childhoods and (01:35:33) education for all your kids, but this is (01:35:35) America. You should have the freedom (01:35:37) >> to achieve that if you want that for (01:35:39) your child, right? And so again, we need (01:35:42) to codify ways for parents to opt out (01:35:45) and say there has to be an alternative (01:35:47) path even if it's not the mainstream (01:35:49) one. Um, go ahead. (01:35:52) >> U, and I think a a lot of times schools (01:35:54) or districts have opt out options, but (01:35:57) they're not advertised (01:35:59) because Google or whoever you know is, (01:36:01) you know, gives them language to present (01:36:03) to the school so that everybody opts in (01:36:05) and no one's ever told they can opt out, (01:36:08) >> right? And the last The last piece I (01:36:10) would add is we have to find more (01:36:13) opportunities to bring these big tech (01:36:15) companies to court. Give parents more (01:36:17) options to litigate. (01:36:20) Great point. Great point. Now, something (01:36:24) I think what we've seen today so far (01:36:25) with this event is Dr. Height and so far (01:36:28) with this panel demonstrating the (01:36:30) grievous harm that's being done today. (01:36:32) And now from these last couple of (01:36:34) questions, I'm hearing these solutions, (01:36:37) which looking at the harm and looking at (01:36:38) the solutions, these seem like pretty (01:36:40) modest things that we're asking for. (01:36:42) That children shouldn't be exposed to (01:36:44) pornography, that uh they shouldn't be (01:36:47) exposed to uh virtual um algorithms that (01:36:52) are simulating relationship and (01:36:53) replacing the relationships in their (01:36:55) lives. Um, the list can go on and on, (01:36:58) but it seems like would your message be (01:37:02) to industry is saying (01:37:05) these are modest attempts, modest things (01:37:07) that we can do to to make that uh make (01:37:11) that possible for more families to make (01:37:12) it more possible for families to opt (01:37:15) out. Is that proper care (01:37:16) characterization of it? (01:37:19) I mean, I I would say that the problem (01:37:22) is the anthro uh anthropomorphization, (01:37:25) you know, the the personalization of the (01:37:27) chat bots itself. That's a feature. (01:37:29) That's not a bug, right? (01:37:31) >> And so, you're taking away their their (01:37:33) main way to convince people and lure (01:37:35) them into a sense of security into (01:37:37) relation, right? It's not relation at (01:37:39) all. Uh but take that away and it's (01:37:43) Google, right? I mean, it's a it's a (01:37:45) better Google. It's a faster Google. (01:37:46) I'll admit that. Um, but what's left (01:37:49) there? If it doesn't give the allure of (01:37:51) a relationship, (01:37:53) >> I think the marketing disappears. (01:37:55) >> Maybe the two cents is if you do not (01:37:58) like the modest measures, be afraid of (01:37:59) what comes next. Um, as we experience (01:38:02) more and more of these harms if there's (01:38:04) not correction, but I'm editorializing. (01:38:06) I'm I'm the moderator. Let's get back to (01:38:07) the questions. Um, so next question I (01:38:11) have is for for you, Annie. uh do the (01:38:13) harms we've discussed about social media (01:38:15) and screen use uh extend to AI? We've (01:38:18) covered some of that and but what are (01:38:21) some of the unique problems of AI that (01:38:23) contribute to problematic screen use? (01:38:24) Zone in on that more from from our (01:38:26) discussion here. (01:38:28) >> Yes, they do. Uh so first with social (01:38:32) media the algorithms the algorithm is so (01:38:36) powerful because it uses AI and that is (01:38:40) how it is very quickly recommending (01:38:43) um and curating content to each user (01:38:46) based on their likes and their (01:38:49) preferences and um their behavior on the (01:38:53) platform. So that that already has been (01:38:55) existing and that is what it keeps uh (01:38:58) users hooked. But I think where AI um (01:39:03) more like generative AI is different (01:39:05) with like the AI chat bots is the (01:39:08) engagement. It is engaging back with (01:39:11) you. It's not just very um (01:39:14) sophisticatedly serving you content. (01:39:16) It's um having like a relationship with (01:39:19) you and use the natural language (01:39:23) um responding, asking you more (01:39:25) questions. (01:39:27) And this is really concerning with kids (01:39:30) because I mean as their brains are still (01:39:33) developing and so even if they're told (01:39:34) it's a chatbot, I think um it's very (01:39:38) easy to forget that and for them to feel (01:39:42) like they are having they're they're (01:39:43) developing this emotional bond. um (01:39:46) especially as texting, direct messaging, (01:39:50) DMing is more how kids are communicating (01:39:53) anyway. So with most of their friends, (01:39:54) it's all chatting anyway. So it's really (01:39:56) no different than if they're chatting (01:39:59) with a chat chatbot. It's not like the (01:40:02) chatbot is where they type, but everyone (01:40:03) else they're on the phone. (01:40:05) Unfortunately, you know, they aren't (01:40:07) doing phone calls anymore. Um, so I (01:40:09) think it's it's the level of engagement (01:40:13) that AI (01:40:15) has and that how it's able to kind of (01:40:18) like replicate human type of engagement. (01:40:22) That is what is more concerning. (01:40:25) >> Thank you. And it's 2025, so I'm (01:40:27) obligated to ask several AI questions. (01:40:29) Thank you for your forbearance. One more (01:40:30) for you, Michael. Um, what are some of (01:40:32) the concerning or hopeful thoughts you (01:40:34) have about AI that you haven't already (01:40:35) covered? (01:40:38) I mean, so I agree with everything Annie (01:40:41) just said, but I'm going to try to take (01:40:42) a shot at the hopeful. How about that? (01:40:45) Which is hard to do. A lot of ink has (01:40:46) been spilled on the concerns, right? (01:40:48) Let's talk about the hopeful for a (01:40:49) second. Uh at the height of COVID, the (01:40:53) Holy Father uh offered an invocation, (01:40:56) and I'm not I'm not going to read it, (01:40:57) but his prayer was the storm exposes our (01:41:01) vulnerabilities that we have. And so his (01:41:04) his point that he's making there is (01:41:06) often when things are really really bad, (01:41:07) we start to uncover the things that have (01:41:10) been broken for a long time, right? And (01:41:13) so you I've been saying this about LLMs (01:41:16) for for a pretty long time that um we're (01:41:19) finally starting to ask questions about (01:41:21) that brokenness, right? So take (01:41:22) education for example. Um I think for (01:41:26) the very first time, thanks to chat bots (01:41:28) and plagiarism, we're really starting to (01:41:30) ask hard questions about what writing (01:41:32) is. uh what learning is. Uh I'll tell a (01:41:35) quick story. There's a school nearby (01:41:37) here uh very prestigious, very good uh (01:41:41) private boys school and they were (01:41:44) experiencing this plagiarism like (01:41:46) rampant. And so they said, "Okay, we're (01:41:47) going to go away from word processing. (01:41:49) We're going to bring in the blue books." (01:41:50) If anybody ever remembers blue books, (01:41:52) we're going to write essays in class. (01:41:54) And so that's a great idea until they (01:41:56) found out pretty quickly that they (01:41:58) didn't know how to write anymore, right? (01:42:01) And so it's a bit of a sad story, but (01:42:05) I'm hopeful because now that's a (01:42:07) conversation, right? Now we're looking (01:42:08) at, well, how are we teaching writing? (01:42:10) Yeah. How are we teaching comprehension? (01:42:13) Um, if they lack those basic skills. Um, (01:42:17) the other piece that I'm hopeful for is (01:42:18) there's a lot of people playing with I (01:42:20) call them toys because they're (01:42:21) entertainment value. A lot of people (01:42:23) playing with these chatbot toys who are (01:42:25) suddenly realizing that the transcribed (01:42:28) internet is pretty wrong. Like anybody (01:42:31) who uses Gemini at the top of Google, (01:42:33) you're like, "That's not what I was (01:42:34) looking for. That's not the right answer (01:42:35) or that's not even the right word, (01:42:37) right?" Um, and you know, the the phrase (01:42:41) artificial intelligence, I always say to (01:42:44) people, is an oxymoron. Aristotle in the (01:42:46) Greeks talked about intelligence as the (01:42:48) facility to prioritize or organize the (01:42:51) highest goods. Chatbots don't understand (01:42:54) what is a high good or a low good or any (01:42:56) kind of good, right? It's just a very (01:42:58) good next word guesser, right? And so, (01:43:02) um, I think if you're talking to the (01:43:04) smartest people, and by the way, the (01:43:06) smartest people are not the marketers. (01:43:08) If you're talking to the smartest (01:43:09) people, look at Goldman Sachs, uh, just (01:43:12) this week came out with a report and (01:43:14) they said, "Hey, by the way, that whole (01:43:15) thing about AI stealing jobs kind of was (01:43:18) an exaggeration, at least in the banking (01:43:20) sector, right? these guys know uh what's (01:43:23) going to steal their bottom line. Um and (01:43:25) Americans are rightly suspicious of this (01:43:28) technology. So I'm I'm just very hopeful (01:43:30) that a lot of this is just uncovering a (01:43:32) rot that we've been sitting on um since (01:43:34) the great rewiring. Yeah. And I mean to (01:43:37) to your note of optimism, you know, in (01:43:40) in covering this, we we offer a great (01:43:43) deal. We we're saying scrutinize its (01:43:45) effects on children, scrutinize child (01:43:48) exposure. Um we should acknowledge that (01:43:51) there are tremendous positive uses for (01:43:54) technology and AI in particular um that (01:43:57) ought to be pursued, employed, deployed (01:43:59) um at the very least to make sure that (01:44:01) we do it and China doesn't. But that (01:44:03) does not take apart uh the argument that (01:44:05) you've presented that we need to pass (01:44:07) our country, we need to pass the baton (01:44:09) to someone when we win. That's an (01:44:11) excellent point. Um the next question I (01:44:14) have is um for for you Annie. Um in (01:44:19) talking about this scrutiny and exposure (01:44:20) for for children. I'm uh my question is (01:44:24) is there evidence what is that evidence (01:44:27) that social media platforms and online (01:44:29) companies are intentionally doing this (01:44:31) engineering addiction for ch for (01:44:32) children? (01:44:34) Yeah, I think with the uh like dopamine (01:44:38) triggers, so the rewards and (01:44:40) notifications that uh you get on (01:44:43) platforms. Um so recently Grock um so X (01:44:49) formerly Twitter X now Grock is AI (01:44:53) platform. (01:44:55) uh they came out with a few AI (01:44:58) companions and one of them is this like (01:45:00) female anime character and as like a (01:45:03) reward if you with for positive (01:45:05) engagement with her she starts removing (01:45:08) clothing. Um, so I think that's one (01:45:10) piece of evidence. And I I think maybe (01:45:13) it was mentioned earlier, but Meta, it (01:45:16) was uncovered that Meta to train its AI (01:45:20) llama, it scraped 82,000 gigabytes of (01:45:25) material from pornography websites to (01:45:28) train its material. And why? Because (01:45:30) like pornography is addictive. And um, (01:45:33) so that's something to keep users (01:45:37) engaged. Um (01:45:42) so (01:45:44) yeah I think that is the evidence that (01:45:47) we have um and there's (01:45:53) um I mean you've got the recommendation (01:45:55) based algorithm and I think also just (01:45:59) the evidence of how the the data of how (01:46:02) long people are spending online and the (01:46:05) compulsive usage Um why else are people (01:46:09) spending have screen times of eight (01:46:12) hours eight plus hours a day? It's (01:46:15) because they're addicted and so and (01:46:18) that's be that is a design of their (01:46:20) features because the longer a user is (01:46:23) engaged the more money that they have. (01:46:26) So these platforms a lot of them are (01:46:28) free but the user is the product and (01:46:32) they are getting their revenue through (01:46:34) our use. (01:46:36) >> And perhaps I'm repeating myself a (01:46:38) little bit because of Dr. Height's (01:46:40) excellent presentation talking about the (01:46:42) tens of thousands of internal documents (01:46:44) that have circulated pointing giving (01:46:46) evidence to this problem. Um thank you (01:46:49) thank you for your answer. Uh Michael (01:46:52) perhaps a question that u you know uh (01:46:56) summarizes this puts a good uh landing (01:46:58) point for this. Um you have plenty of (01:47:01) experience developing and deploying (01:47:03) tech. What is the place for technology (01:47:06) in childhood? (01:47:10) So I've always said that discovery was (01:47:14) the real the one great fruit of the (01:47:16) internet. What what do I mean by (01:47:17) discovery? The ability to quickly find (01:47:20) get access to information and (01:47:22) potentially learn something, right? So (01:47:24) like I I don't know it's clogging your (01:47:26) toilet or fixing a pipe or something (01:47:28) like that. You can watch a YouTube video (01:47:29) pretty quickly. Uh not only does that (01:47:31) apply to information, it also uh applies (01:47:34) to relationship, right? You can find (01:47:36) people to help you. Um as you said, I'm (01:47:39) a technologist and I've done that for a (01:47:42) really long time. But I went to school (01:47:44) for political philosophy. Okay. So I (01:47:47) didn't I wasn't properly educated in any (01:47:49) of the stuff that I've done in my (01:47:50) career. All of that was given to me (01:47:53) again by the fruits of discovery, by the (01:47:55) fruits of the internet, free resources, (01:47:57) uh people who really care to teach me. (01:48:00) Um and so, you know, I I would say (01:48:03) access to different books, curriculum, (01:48:06) uh learning styles has been a huge boon (01:48:08) for educators, for the homeschool (01:48:10) community. Uh again, these are just (01:48:12) resources that you wouldn't have had if (01:48:14) not for the internet, right? if it (01:48:16) wasn't in your community, if you didn't (01:48:17) know about it, if you weren't in those (01:48:19) circles or in those clubs, you wouldn't (01:48:20) have access to that, right? Uh but this (01:48:23) availability and access of information (01:48:25) to my mind still has to be monitored or (01:48:28) called administered by parents and (01:48:31) educators, right? Because neurologists, (01:48:34) and you can please correct me if I'm (01:48:37) wrong, neurologists talk about (01:48:39) receptivity and education, right? The (01:48:41) brain is really good at deleting tons of (01:48:44) information that's unnecessary to the (01:48:46) moment, to life, and otherwise, right? (01:48:48) We get rid of a lot of garbage. The (01:48:50) brain has to be receptive to learning (01:48:52) something. You can't just It's not just (01:48:54) information you plug in and it goes in (01:48:55) there, right? And so information uh (01:48:58) sorry, education is not information. (01:49:00) It's not job skills. It's it's none of (01:49:02) these things. It's not data. It's a (01:49:04) relationship with a human being that (01:49:06) cultivates the humanity of that child or (01:49:09) adult. uh and shapes them into a (01:49:11) citizen. And so um (01:49:15) you know, I think I think it's got to be (01:49:18) about receptivity. It's got to be about (01:49:21) using these tools wisely to find the (01:49:24) right information, right? But deploying (01:49:27) them with kids is again an adult choice, (01:49:30) not a kid choice to just decide how much (01:49:32) information I just want to consume and (01:49:33) ingest. So I would say discovery for (01:49:36) sure. (01:49:37) >> Thank you. That's a excellent way to (01:49:39) think about it. Um Annie, you know, I (01:49:41) have to have to flatter you a little (01:49:43) bit. Just today, you you published a (01:49:44) report um on a survey the Heritage (01:49:47) Foundation commissioned asking parents (01:49:49) about their and their children's (01:49:50) experience using online filters and (01:49:53) blocking software. Can you tell us about (01:49:56) some of the results of that survey and (01:49:58) why it's important to this discussion? (01:50:01) Yeah. Well, this survey was something I (01:50:03) wanted to do for a while because last (01:50:05) year as I was uh researching age (01:50:08) verification and writing about it and (01:50:09) making the case for why it was a um good (01:50:13) policy solution for like online (01:50:16) pornography and then even um social (01:50:18) media and then particularly with u (01:50:21) online pornography. Um so as you know (01:50:24) had to make a compelling case for why we (01:50:26) should be adding um you know additional (01:50:29) regulations, additional requirements (01:50:32) and um you of course some of the push (01:50:35) back is well you know we have filters (01:50:38) and blocking technology like if surely (01:50:41) that's uh advanced and is stronger and (01:50:43) you know do we just need more people to (01:50:45) do that? Um but the findings of just how (01:50:48) many kids were exposed to pornography (01:50:51) were so high. I mean like 80% of (01:50:53) teenagers have come across it at least (01:50:56) from like one study 50% actively seek it (01:50:59) out and 40% of little kids have come (01:51:04) across it. So then the question is like (01:51:06) okay so are people just not using (01:51:09) filters um and is that like we just need (01:51:12) more people to use it or are they just (01:51:14) really not working? So we did this (01:51:17) study. We had a thousand1 parents who um (01:51:22) participated (01:51:24) and uh who also of these parents I think (01:51:28) everyone that was moved from the (01:51:30) selection criteria to actually doing it (01:51:32) they all said that they used filters or (01:51:34) blocking technology. And what we found (01:51:38) is you know still that there is um a lot (01:51:42) of problems and that they aren't (01:51:44) perfect. they definitely they they help (01:51:46) but there is um still a lot of gaps (01:51:52) where they fail. So 50% of parents said (01:51:57) that the filtering blocking software (01:51:59) rarely worked or only worked some of the (01:52:01) time. 50% of parents also said that you (01:52:05) know so what that their kids had access (01:52:08) to devices that don't have filters in (01:52:10) place. So whether it's maybe the parents (01:52:12) devices that aren't protected or at a (01:52:15) friend's house or at school, (01:52:18) um about 20% said that their kid had (01:52:21) unintentionally accessed obscene content (01:52:24) while a filter was in place and 15% said (01:52:28) that they um intentionally accessed it (01:52:31) while there's some sort of filter in (01:52:33) place. Twothirds of parents also said (01:52:36) that filters overblock. So um it could (01:52:39) be about like medical treatment u (01:52:42) searching information about (01:52:43) relationships or like drugs and alcohol. (01:52:45) So things that like out of context and (01:52:47) maybe the filter thinks is should be (01:52:49) blocked but u maybe in other context it (01:52:52) actually wasn't really inappropriate. Um (01:52:55) and so that also can just be irritating (01:52:58) and can lead to parents disabling it and (01:53:01) then forgetting to turn it back on. Um (01:53:05) and we also did ask questions about (01:53:08) screen usage and we found (01:53:11) sadly very high rates very like (01:53:13) compulsive usage and a correlation like (01:53:16) parents that spend a lot of time online (01:53:18) have kids that spend a lot of time (01:53:20) online and you know that kind of shows (01:53:23) importance of like modeling behavior. So (01:53:26) 82% of parents said that they spend (01:53:28) between four and 12 hours a day online (01:53:31) during the week and 70% spend that much (01:53:35) time on the weekends. (01:53:37) And the kids were um wasn't quite the (01:53:41) same percentage but still in my book a (01:53:43) high number. 50 parents said that at (01:53:46) least 53% of their kids were spending at (01:53:50) least four hours to over 12 hours a day (01:53:53) online during the week and 62% spend (01:53:57) that much more on the weekend. Um so I (01:54:01) think uh this this survey is online (01:54:03) there's a lot more we have a lot of (01:54:04) charts and graphs um (01:54:08) showcasing their findings and I think (01:54:11) ultimately it goes to show that even um (01:54:15) you know parents who you know they think (01:54:17) they have all the parental controls all (01:54:19) the like filters and some of these (01:54:21) parents were even paying like upwards of (01:54:24) $70 a month for the type of software (01:54:27) they're using to try to filter and block (01:54:30) um certain websites (01:54:33) um that it's there's still gaps in that (01:54:36) and that's why we need additional (01:54:39) measures like some of the ones I (01:54:40) mentioned earlier. (01:54:42) >> I was just going to say anecdotally it (01:54:45) makes a lot of common sense. I'm a (01:54:47) father of five kids, right? Whenever I (01:54:48) meet a new parent with a new baby and (01:54:51) they tell me, "I don't think I'm going (01:54:52) to baby proof my house. I think I'm just (01:54:55) going to watch the kid really, really (01:54:56) closely." And I laugh because they're in (01:54:58) for a rude awakening, right? Monitoring (01:55:00) never works. If you're a parent, you (01:55:02) know, monitoring never works. And so I (01:55:04) think it just makes common sense that (01:55:06) doesn't matter what you throw at it, (01:55:08) kids uh life finds a way, right? Yeah. (01:55:11) And it's worth acknowledging that no one (01:55:13) is rushing to the microphone to say (01:55:15) safety tools online or solve the (01:55:17) problem. Um glad that they exist, but (01:55:21) let's uh let's keep our expectations (01:55:22) straight. All right, next question here. (01:55:26) Um uh well actually I should acknowledge (01:55:29) if you would like to offer uh a question (01:55:31) in the from the audience if you'd like (01:55:33) to offer a question you can email public (01:55:35) programs at heritage.org to present your (01:55:38) question. Um but next time uh next for (01:55:42) for one of my own uh Dr. Dunley let's um (01:55:45) go back to you. what uh you know, (01:55:48) listening to this conversation um what (01:55:51) misconceptions do policymakers or (01:55:53) parents have about the science of screen (01:55:56) use that you think need to be corrected (01:55:59) in order for them to craft effective (01:56:01) policies? (01:56:02) >> Um I think one of the main things is I (01:56:04) always hear, oh, if you just eliminate (01:56:08) screens an hour before bedtime, then (01:56:10) they'll be protected. I hear that all (01:56:11) the time. Um, and that it's helpful, but (01:56:14) it doesn't protect them necessarily or (01:56:17) even close the bare minimum. Yeah. Um, (01:56:20) another one is is, you know, oh, the the (01:56:23) content thing like, oh, it just matters (01:56:24) what they're doing. As long as they're (01:56:25) doing something educational, then it's (01:56:27) okay. I hear that all the time, too. And (01:56:30) as we've discussed, you know, all of (01:56:31) these things, like to me, the content (01:56:33) doesn't matter that much. It doesn't (01:56:34) make that much difference. Um, and all (01:56:38) of these all of these platforms and the (01:56:40) software and everything and the device (01:56:42) themselves is designed to pull you back (01:56:43) in. So, um, that's another big one. Um, (01:56:47) and I think also people people to me the (01:56:51) interactive screen time is a lot more (01:56:52) disregulating because it's more (01:56:53) stimulating and more engaging. Um, so (01:56:56) that's another big one that EdTE uses (01:56:58) all the time is um, this is how we keep (01:57:00) the children engaged. um will make it (01:57:03) more interesting and interactive and (01:57:05) interactive and we know that from (01:57:07) research as well that interactive has (01:57:09) more effect on sleep. It has more effect (01:57:11) on mood and cognition the following day. (01:57:14) >> Excellent. Thank you. Um Jennifer, a (01:57:17) question for you. Um where do you see (01:57:21) natural allies among health (01:57:23) organizations and tech policy advocates (01:57:25) to move this forward? put on your (01:57:27) coalition's hat for a moment to say how (01:57:29) how do folks work together to be (01:57:31) effective here? (01:57:32) >> Well, definitely pull in all the maja (01:57:35) people and the mothers. I mean, defin (01:57:37) that is one that is the force that we (01:57:39) have seen push kind of maha out th those (01:57:42) there's a lot of moms in Congress like (01:57:44) knocking on doors, making phone calls, (01:57:46) writing letters, now getting involved in (01:57:48) drafting policy. It is the it is the (01:57:52) epitome of what it means to be a (01:57:55) democratic republic to to have the (01:57:57) people run the government and not the (01:58:00) other way around. Um the other thing (01:58:02) I'll say I'm going to put on my Charlie (01:58:04) Kirk hat for a moment is is call on (01:58:06) churches. (01:58:08) I I feel like there's yes, tech is (01:58:11) shaping us, but we're also v vulnerable (01:58:14) because of this perversion of sex as we (01:58:17) see in pornography um and the sexual (01:58:19) culture as we see in kind of the (01:58:21) Kardashian culture that girls are (01:58:24) attracted to. And what we haven't (01:58:26) touched on is is how this kind of we (01:58:30) kind of touched on it, but how this (01:58:32) degradates family formation um which we (01:58:35) know is the foundation of healthy and (01:58:36) flourishing societies and something (01:58:38) Heritage is very much focused on in this (01:58:40) new year. Um this new year coming up and (01:58:45) I am every time I see this guy Jeffrey (01:58:47) Marsh pop up on social media he freaks (01:58:51) me out. And we are we are feeding these (01:58:54) kids this trans this transgender (01:58:56) ideology and perverting normal healthy (01:59:01) sexual relationships between men and (01:59:03) women and destroying families. And I (01:59:05) think if churches don't play a role in (01:59:07) this, if they don't somehow I understand (01:59:10) where church is like, well, that's not (01:59:12) our job. Well, you cannot I don't think (01:59:14) we're in a position in this day and age (01:59:16) to remove morality from policy and (01:59:18) legislation and and and our everyday (01:59:21) life. (01:59:22) um that may have held true before when (01:59:25) we were a religious society. Um I think (01:59:28) we need to bring a little bit of that (01:59:30) into the forefront, call on churches, um (01:59:33) call on civic organizations and (01:59:35) communities to really bring this back (01:59:37) into public life and what a healthy (01:59:40) sexual relationship is, what a healthy (01:59:42) marriage is, what it means to date and (01:59:45) court. and and it seems so archaic in (01:59:49) this day and age and it seems so um lite (01:59:52) but uh I just feel like churches have a (01:59:57) have a bigger role in all of this (01:59:59) cultural formation than than we're (02:00:01) asking them to play. (02:00:03) >> If we can lean on the maja movement (02:00:05) bring in the churches um take leadership (02:00:07) in our own families and communities (02:00:10) there there's a lot of work to do and a (02:00:12) lot to be hopeful for. So would you (02:00:14) please join me in thanking this panel (02:00:15) for their terrific remarks. (02:00:18) [applause] (02:00:25) On behalf of the Heritage Foundation, (02:00:27) thank you all for joining us for this (02:00:29) conversation. Please be encouraged to (02:00:31) lead in your families and communities to (02:00:33) demand a better outcome for our kids. (02:00:36) Thank you and please join us for (02:00:37) reception in the lobby as you entered. (02:00:40) Thank you.