Bad Therapy, Weak Parenting, Broken Children | Abigail Shrier | EP 427 (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) hello everyone I'm pleased to announce (00:00:02) my new tour for 2024 beginning in early (00:00:06) February and running through June Tammy (00:00:08) and I an assortment of special guests (00:00:10) are going to visit 51 cities in the US (00:00:13) you can find out more information about (00:00:15) this on my website (00:00:17) jordanbpeterson.com as well as accessing (00:00:20) all relevant ticketing information I'm (00:00:23) going to use the tour to walk through (00:00:24) some of the ideas I've been working on (00:00:27) my forthcoming book out November 2024 we (00:00:30) who wrestle with God I'm looking forward (00:00:33) to this I'm thrilled to be able to do it (00:00:34) again and I'll be pleased to see all of (00:00:37) you again soon (00:00:39) bye-bye this is where I'm most (00:00:41) optimistic it's what parents can do (00:00:43) we've known this for you know since the (00:00:46) beginning of Time how to raise good (00:00:47) people and we've done it and the way to (00:00:50) do it in our over with these overtreated (00:00:53) kids is to proceed by subtraction remove (00:00:56) the psych meds they don't need the (00:00:58) diagnosis you don't believe in the uh (00:01:01) over monitoring over coddling over (00:01:04) accommodation if you do that you will (00:01:07) raise good kids and you don't have to be (00:01:09) as afraid of the teacher in school who (00:01:11) doesn't share your values and you don't (00:01:13) have to be as terrified of social media (00:01:15) because your kid is (00:01:16) [Music] (00:01:29) ready (00:01:31) hello everyone today I'm talking to (00:01:33) Abigail shrier I last talked to her (00:01:36) about two years ago when I first when I (00:01:38) first reemerged on the podcast scene she (00:01:41) was the first person I talked to in this (00:01:44) new series of podcasts and she had just (00:01:46) published her book irreversible damage (00:01:48) the transgender craze seducing our (00:01:50) daughters so I was quite apprehensive (00:01:53) about talking to her because I mean (00:01:55) that's a hot topic now but it was like a (00:01:56) verboten topic at that point and I was (00:01:59) barely on my feet anyways we had a very (00:02:01) good conversation which I think (00:02:03) eventually YouTube took down if I (00:02:05) remember correctly because as you know (00:02:07) there's nothing that you can't talk (00:02:09) about less than the transgender issue (00:02:12) anyways Abigail has a new book coming (00:02:14) out bad therapy why the kids aren't (00:02:17) growing up which is slated for release (00:02:19) in early 2024 but which is available for (00:02:22) purchase now she moved from her concern (00:02:26) with the transgender phenomena and the (00:02:28) medical barbarism that accompanied its (00:02:31) hypothetical treatment to an analysis A (00:02:33) much broader analysis of what has gone (00:02:35) wrong with the therapeutic Enterprise as (00:02:37) such now that's that's something about (00:02:39) which you can talk about for a very long (00:02:41) time and we do in fact talk about that (00:02:43) for about an hour and a half on YouTube (00:02:45) and then peripherally for another half (00:02:46) an hour on the daily we plus side so you (00:02:48) can join us for that welcome aboard so I (00:02:52) think it's about two years since we (00:02:54) talked and if if I remember correctly (00:02:57) you were the first guest I had on again (00:03:00) after I more or less got back on my feet (00:03:02) and made me very nervous because you'd (00:03:04) written this contentious book and I was (00:03:07) sure that we'd (00:03:08) get thrashed to death by YouTube which (00:03:12) we did but but but what you've done is (00:03:17) extremely useful and it looks to me to (00:03:19) some degree as if the tide might be (00:03:22) turning and so I don't know what you (00:03:24) think about that maybe you could start (00:03:26) by telling people about your second last (00:03:28) book and then we can talk about your new (00:03:30) one which is going to be releasing (00:03:32) relatively soon but let's walk through (00:03:34) uh let's walk through your first book (00:03:37) and tell everybody sure thank you so (00:03:40) much for having me on again Jordan it's (00:03:42) great to be here and um so my first book (00:03:45) was about there sudden rise in uh (00:03:48) transgender identification among teen (00:03:50) girls we were seeing this huge rise in (00:03:52) it of course it was very contentious (00:03:55) subject matter and um I hypothesized it (00:03:58) was part of a social Contagion kids on (00:04:01) the inter you know on social media and (00:04:04) um talking to each other their friends (00:04:07) and therapists actually and deciding (00:04:10) they were transgender and rushing to to (00:04:12) start hormones and surgeries and one of (00:04:15) the things I learned when I interviewed (00:04:17) hundreds of parents as I did and at this (00:04:19) point I've talked to over a thousand is (00:04:22) first of all how much therapy kids were (00:04:24) getting to how much parents were relying (00:04:28) on therapists to not only help them with (00:04:31) their kids but to guide their parenting (00:04:33) and three I learned just how much (00:04:36) Mischief therapists were making because (00:04:38) they often made this sense of being (00:04:41) transgender much much worse they reified (00:04:43) it in these kids so then I began to (00:04:46) wonder what other kinds of Mischief were (00:04:48) therapists making with kids I see so (00:04:51) you're you're trying to make yourself (00:04:52) even more popular than you've already (00:04:54) being made a yeah well you know seven (00:04:57) years ago I started to think well I (00:05:00) longer than that but I suppose I said it (00:05:03) publicly seven years ago I started to (00:05:05) think that the universities were doing (00:05:06) more harm than good you know and that's (00:05:08) a hell of a thing to think after you've (00:05:10) spent 25 years at top tier universities (00:05:14) trying to provide people with a genuine (00:05:17) education and now I certainly I (00:05:20) certainly believe the universities are (00:05:21) doing more harm than good and I mean we (00:05:23) saw a spectacular example of that in DC (00:05:26) last week which was I thought when I (00:05:28) watched that clip of (00:05:30) the MIT upen and Harvard presidents that (00:05:35) it was the worst thing I'd seen on the (00:05:37) news in my life you know it just that (00:05:40) Glimpse that it gave everyone into this (00:05:43) bottomless pit of victim victimizer (00:05:46) false moral narrative and its (00:05:50) unbelievably simple-minded and (00:05:52) pernicious effects stunning but you know (00:05:55) I have thought too increasingly in (00:05:58) recent years that (00:06:00) therapy does more harm now than it does (00:06:02) good and I think the reason for that is (00:06:04) that you know when I was at Mill in the (00:06:08) 80s and then through most of my career (00:06:12) the clinical psychologists I knew were (00:06:15) it was hard to become a clinical (00:06:16) psychologist and they were well trained (00:06:18) they were scientifically trained and (00:06:21) they were careful and methodical (00:06:23) especially the behaviorists you know and (00:06:25) the psychoanalysts they were rare and (00:06:28) generally extremely intelligent and more (00:06:30) creative and open and so I thought the (00:06:33) therapeutic Enterprise was a pretty (00:06:35) admirable (00:06:36) um was pretty admirable and I really (00:06:39) enjoyed being a clinician but the whole (00:06:43) field got invaded by people who have no (00:06:47) nowhere near the intelligence or the (00:06:49) wisdom to be doing what they're doing (00:06:52) the sort of naive social worker types (00:06:54) who are ideology addled to the nth (00:06:56) degree and I I work I had a colleague at (00:06:59) Harvard Richard McNelly who was very (00:07:01) concerned about the instilling of false (00:07:04) Memories by foolish therapists that (00:07:06) started to become a real issue in the (00:07:08) 1990s and you know and it was all a (00:07:11) consequence of therapists who had one (00:07:14) theory about pathology insisting that it (00:07:17) explained absolutely everything in the (00:07:19) universe of moral striving let's say and (00:07:23) that that weakness that was obvious (00:07:26) there has just magnified itself (00:07:28) tremendously so tell so this is my fear (00:07:30) and my shame for that matter tell me (00:07:33) what so you broadened out from your (00:07:35) concern the concern you started to (00:07:38) develop in relationship to the trans (00:07:40) phenomenon per se so let's tell me more (00:07:43) about what you saw there in terms of the (00:07:45) therapist's facilitating these identity (00:07:48) disorders tell me why you became curious (00:07:50) about that generalization and then most (00:07:53) painfully of all explain what you (00:07:56) discovered sure so in in in researching (00:07:59) bad therapy I first of all I started out (00:08:02) with a totally different hypothesis I (00:08:04) knew that we were these kids were (00:08:05) getting more mental health intervention (00:08:07) than any generation prior the rising (00:08:09) generation I knew that they were getting (00:08:11) more diagnosis and more psych meds and (00:08:14) more therapeutic intervention in schools (00:08:16) but I still didn't think therapy was (00:08:18) necessarily the problem because while (00:08:21) 40% of them were getting therapy it (00:08:23) still wasn't a majority and yet we'd (00:08:26) seen their mental health fall apart we (00:08:29) knew that the rise in therapy and (00:08:31) therapeutic intervention was somehow (00:08:32) coinciding with worse mental health that (00:08:35) that of course shouldn't be the case (00:08:37) like with breast cancer you know more (00:08:38) access more treatment uh better (00:08:40) treatment and more access to it has seen (00:08:42) you know rates of death from breast (00:08:44) cancer plummet and that's what we would (00:08:45) expect to see with mental health and (00:08:47) we're not seeing that but I still (00:08:49) thought you know it was possibly just uh (00:08:52) the way kids were being raised maybe (00:08:54) they were being raised differently or (00:08:55) perhaps it was just a smartphone um and (00:08:59) then I began to look into what the (00:09:02) iatrogenic effects of therapy are what (00:09:05) are the what are the ways that therapy (00:09:07) can hurt you and there's a literature on (00:09:09) this unfortunately it's not a literature (00:09:12) most therapists want to acknowledge they (00:09:14) want to claim that therapy has this (00:09:16) amazing power to heal but that it can (00:09:19) never hurt and of course there's no (00:09:21) treatment for for which that's true (00:09:24) anything you know Tylenol can damage (00:09:26) your liver anything that can help can (00:09:28) also harm (00:09:30) and so I began to look into well were (00:09:33) these kids getting a lot more therapy (00:09:35) and not only were the harms we were (00:09:37) seeing in this generation the lack of (00:09:39) agency the (00:09:40) listlessness the family alienation the (00:09:43) anxiety depression all uh effects of you (00:09:47) know iatrogenic effects of therapy (00:09:49) harmful effects of bad therapy but um we (00:09:53) were seeing this we were seeing this you (00:09:55) know in in it was sorry it was being (00:09:58) applied not not only from actual (00:10:00) therapists but all over the schools and (00:10:03) and from parents parents were having (00:10:06) therapists guide their parenting and (00:10:08) schools were having therapists do trauma (00:10:10) informed care with all the kids so I (00:10:13) started realizing that these kids were (00:10:14) getting a lot more psychological (00:10:16) intervention that I realized and that it (00:10:17) was bad okay so what let's talk about (00:10:21) trauma informed care and let's talk (00:10:24) about why you concluded that it was bad (00:10:28) I mean you pointed first of all to the (00:10:29) fact that as there's been more and more (00:10:31) therapeutic invent intervention you know (00:10:34) as the schools and the universities have (00:10:36) been turned into therapeutic hot beds (00:10:39) the outcome is that mental health has (00:10:41) become worse now you know obviously (00:10:45) self-serving therapists are going to say (00:10:47) well that's just more evidence that even (00:10:49) despite our efforts even more therapy is (00:10:52) necessary right that's the logical (00:10:55) response to that but obviously you're (00:10:57) not convinced that that's the case and (00:10:59) you're implying at least or maybe making (00:11:01) a direct accusation that there's (00:11:03) something about the therapeutic industry (00:11:05) per se that's actually making mental (00:11:07) health worse now Greg lukanov certainly (00:11:10) has is making that case and I would say (00:11:12) it's a case that Jonathan height is (00:11:15) probably what would you say he's uh he's (00:11:19) he's supportive of of of that (00:11:21) implication why did you come to the (00:11:24) conclusion that the Enterprise is doing (00:11:26) more harm than good and what evidence is (00:11:28) there for that do you think (00:11:30) well because they're not treating the (00:11:31) sick they're treating the well so we (00:11:34) know that the risk of iatrogenesis of (00:11:37) the Healer introducing a harm is (00:11:39) greatest when you're treating people who (00:11:41) don't need the treatment to begin with (00:11:43) okay so we know that if you're if you're (00:11:45) gushing blood going to an R ER is an (00:11:48) important thing to do it's necessary (00:11:49) it's lifesaving but if you have a small (00:11:52) bruise you're likely to get you're much (00:11:54) more at risk of getting an infection (00:11:56) from the ER picking up picking up you (00:11:58) know a a Mera or some other bacteria (00:12:01) from an emergency room visit than you (00:12:03) are uh at you know than you stand to (00:12:06) benefit and the same is true with (00:12:09) preventive care we we shifted from (00:12:11) treating kids and treating adolescents (00:12:14) with severe mental health problems to (00:12:16) the idea that everyone should have (00:12:19) therapy and there we exposed a vast (00:12:22) population to risk the risk of all the (00:12:26) known harms of therapy um now you know (00:12:30) I'm not someone who's against therapy (00:12:31) I'm not someone who denies that it can (00:12:33) be important and very useful and even (00:12:35) Curative um but when you treat kids who (00:12:39) are actually don't have a severe problem (00:12:42) you're at much greater risk that they're (00:12:44) just going to the therapist will just (00:12:46) introduce harms and I saw it firsthand (00:12:49) certainly with the kids who convinced (00:12:51) themselves that they were transgender um (00:12:53) very often with a therapist the idea was (00:12:56) reified and and I and we see that across (00:12:59) the board from everything from anxiety (00:13:02) depression uh family alienation the loss (00:13:05) of a sense of agency we're seeing in the (00:13:07) rise of generation they have a external (00:13:10) locus of control in rates we've never (00:13:12) seen before they don't believe they can (00:13:13) improve their own life and they are (00:13:15) highly treatment dependent they think (00:13:17) they have to call a therapist or an (00:13:18) adult before they make any decision (00:13:20) these are young adults who feel that (00:13:22) they can't make a decision in their (00:13:23) lives so we're seeing a lot of the harms (00:13:26) that the that therapy can cause in those (00:13:29) are the same ones that plague the rising (00:13:32) generation right okay so you're you're (00:13:34) pointing to a couple of factors that (00:13:36) play a causal role let's say in the (00:13:39) pathologization of therapy recipients (00:13:42) the first would be false diagnosis so (00:13:46) for example with the kids who have (00:13:48) so-called gender dysphoria I mean you (00:13:50) can look at this technically and it's (00:13:51) quite straightforward thing to do so (00:13:53) basically when it when when anyone is in (00:13:56) a position where they might be seeking (00:13:58) or are likely to be offered (00:14:02) Psychotherapy the fundamental reason for (00:14:04) that is generally an excess of negative (00:14:07) emotion and a dir of positive emotion so (00:14:12) what you essentially see it's very rare (00:14:14) for people to be brought to the (00:14:16) attention of the therapeutic Enterprise (00:14:18) voluntarily or involuntarily unless (00:14:20) they're anxious and depressed so the (00:14:23) first thing you assume if you're a (00:14:24) therapist if you have any sense is (00:14:26) that the anxiety and depression (00:14:29) is the Cardinal reality then there's a (00:14:32) subset then you can become more precise (00:14:35) after that you might say well for this (00:14:38) adolescent or adult their (00:14:41) proclivity toward excess negative (00:14:44) emotion takes the place of bodily (00:14:46) concern for example that's more common (00:14:48) among women generally speaking it's more (00:14:51) common among young women in fact it (00:14:53) might be almost universally prevalent (00:14:55) among young women especially at that (00:14:57) puberty cusp and then you assume that (00:15:02) the misattribution of the depression and (00:15:06) anxiety to the bodily (00:15:09) Transformations is a con is the is to be (00:15:12) the target of the most specific (00:15:14) interventions right you don't jump to (00:15:17) the conclusion that if the person's (00:15:19) depressed and anxious and they show (00:15:21) signs of body dysmorphia then they're (00:15:24) born in the wrong body and they need (00:15:26) surgical intervention there's so many (00:15:29) things wrong with that line of logic (00:15:31) that it's almost a miracle that it could (00:15:33) ever be established right and one of the (00:15:36) errors that's most egregious in that (00:15:38) regard is that you don't recommend the (00:15:42) most damaging potential and irreversible (00:15:46) treatment when you could start with (00:15:48) something much simpler like I (00:15:51) interviewed Khloe Cole right she's a (00:15:53) famous D transitioner she's having a (00:15:55) rough time on every University campus (00:15:57) she goes to and she's suing the (00:15:59) Psychopathic butchers who destroyed her (00:16:03) physiologically and and damaged her (00:16:06) future and um she told (00:16:10) me when I talked to her that no (00:16:14) therapist had ever even explained to her (00:16:16) two simple facts number one that when (00:16:19) women hit puberty when girls hit puberty (00:16:22) there levels of negative emotion (00:16:25) reliably rise and that they because boys (00:16:28) and girls have about the same level of (00:16:30) negative emotion but it switches at (00:16:32) puberty and then women have more (00:16:34) negative emotion comparatively speaking (00:16:36) on average for the rest of their life (00:16:39) and there's lots of reasons for that but (00:16:40) the reasons in some ways are irrelevant (00:16:42) it's the fact that's relevant it's like (00:16:44) well you're 12 you're confused and (00:16:47) anxious lots of people who are confused (00:16:49) and anxious feel that they're the only (00:16:51) people that feel that way right (00:16:54) especially when they're looking at (00:16:55) everybody's Facebook page and their (00:16:57) Instagram page and all they see is this (00:16:59) glamorous lie that people put forward in (00:17:02) relationship to their own life and then (00:17:03) they're especially if they're isolated (00:17:05) kids they can't talk to anyone about it (00:17:08) they feel they're the only people in the (00:17:09) world who feel that way so one of the (00:17:11) things you do if you're a therapist that (00:17:12) has even an iota of a clue is say all (00:17:16) these things that you think are (00:17:18) characteristic of you are actually (00:17:19) they're normative and so you can't be (00:17:22) thinking that there's something (00:17:23) specifically wrong with you even though (00:17:25) you're suffering and then so no one had (00:17:28) ever explained that to her and which is (00:17:31) just appalling right such a lapse of (00:17:33) professional standard that it's that (00:17:35) it's jaw-dropping and then they also (00:17:38) didn't explain to her that here's one of (00:17:41) the things that differentiates men from (00:17:43) women is that when men experience (00:17:46) negative emotion they tend to focus on (00:17:49) their comparative socioeconomic (00:17:52) status when women experience negative (00:17:54) emotion they tend to they tend to focus (00:17:57) on bodily (00:17:59) image and the reason for that likely is (00:18:02) that men are evaluated by women more (00:18:04) harshly for their relative status and (00:18:06) women are evaluated more harshly by men (00:18:09) for their physiological appearance for (00:18:12) the general appearance and so there's (00:18:13) there's a logic to it (00:18:16) but no one explained to her that it was (00:18:18) highly likely in the case of an (00:18:20) adolescent girl who was undergoing (00:18:22) puberty and early and she also said a (00:18:24) she told me that she recognized quite (00:18:27) early maybe around 11 that when she went (00:18:30) through puberty she was going to have a (00:18:32) relatively boyish feature figure and she (00:18:35) had kind of envisioned herself as Khloe (00:18:37) Kardashian right this super curvy (00:18:40) Marilyn Monroe excess you know what it's (00:18:44) almost like a parody in some ways but (00:18:46) you can imagine that standing forward as (00:18:48) a as a kind of Ideal she thought she was (00:18:50) going to be boyish and there was a part (00:18:52) of her that thought well if I'm going to (00:18:54) be boyish maybe I could just be a boy (00:18:57) you know which is a really kind of AI (00:18:59) delusional 11-year-old thought that (00:19:01) should be dispensed with by anyone (00:19:02) credible in about 15 seconds but that (00:19:05) was enough to start her searching down (00:19:06) the wrong rabbit hole and then you know (00:19:08) she got herself put in the hands of (00:19:10) these absolutely criminally incompetent (00:19:13) therapists and they didn't even offer (00:19:15) her the first two bits of information (00:19:18) that anyone with any sense would have (00:19:20) presented to her instead they shunted (00:19:22) her down the bloody hormonal (00:19:24) transformation Road and that's almost a (00:19:26) certain Pathway to you know longer term (00:19:30) well trouble for sure and even surgical (00:19:32) intervention and so God it's just it's (00:19:36) just you just can't believe that such (00:19:37) things are happening you know and so and (00:19:40) some of the important things that you (00:19:41) mentioned you know to to me is that or (00:19:43) the salian things that you mentioned is (00:19:45) first of all that's completely standard (00:19:47) for therapists what what those (00:19:49) therapists did to Khloe Cole is (00:19:51) completely standard affirming increasing (00:19:54) their um their whatever they came in (00:19:57) with agreeing with them the patient and (00:20:00) of course altering their self- (00:20:02) understanding with a diagnosis and when (00:20:04) I interview kids I interviewed this one (00:20:06) young woman Nora who's at a high school (00:20:08) here in Los in in the in Los Angeles (00:20:10) area and she told me that most of her (00:20:13) high school class not only H is in (00:20:15) therapy but they all have this diagnosis (00:20:18) they identify with they a mental health (00:20:20) diagnosis that is one of the classic (00:20:23) negative effects of therapy is that a (00:20:24) patient will come to identify with their (00:20:27) diagnosis and we're seeing that across (00:20:31) the board um now many many people say (00:20:34) well to me well isn't it just social (00:20:35) media isn't this all just coming from (00:20:38) social media I I think that's an (00:20:40) important question I certainly am (00:20:42) someone who you know warned about the (00:20:44) harms of social media in my last book I (00:20:47) certainly think it's had a bad impact on (00:20:49) youth mental health but is it just (00:20:51) social media no I don't think it is um (00:20:54) the mental health deterioration we're (00:20:56) seeing and it's for few reasons um in (00:21:00) 2016 the CDC came out with a report that (00:21:04) two that one in six kids between the (00:21:07) ages of 2 and8 had a mental health or (00:21:10) behavioral diagnosis one in six kids (00:21:13) that's in 2016 they didn't have social (00:21:15) media not ages 2 to8 they didn't and (00:21:18) they didn't have smartphones (00:21:19) either so the we know since the 1950s (00:21:23) American Youth and youth in the west has (00:21:25) that mental health has been in (00:21:26) precipitous decline and I think social (00:21:29) media is a part of that but I don't (00:21:31) think it totally answers it and there (00:21:34) are there are two questions I would put (00:21:36) to anyone who would argue well the (00:21:38) answer is just social media the first is (00:21:41) why why has social media been so bad for (00:21:44) youth mental health um a lot of people (00:21:47) they talk about comparing young people's (00:21:49) me their bodies and lives to each other (00:21:51) certainly teenage girls do that a lot (00:21:53) but boys don't tend (00:21:55) to um so that doesn't totally explain it (00:21:58) and the second is why in the last eight (00:22:00) years have we done nothing about it in (00:22:01) fact we've given devices and social (00:22:04) media to younger and younger kids so I I (00:22:08) think both of those answers are (00:22:10) intimately connected to to what the (00:22:13) mental health experts have (00:22:16) done we are experiencing a lot of global (00:22:19) instability as we plunge into primary (00:22:21) season the economy is unstable and (00:22:24) political tensions are high there's no (00:22:26) telling what the next few months will (00:22:28) bring how are you protecting your family (00:22:30) in the midst of all this chaos the fact (00:22:32) is there is one asset that has withstood (00:22:35) famine Wars and political and economic (00:22:37) upheaval dating back to Biblical times (00:22:40) and that's gold and don't think it's too (00:22:43) late to diversify an old Ira or 401K (00:22:46) into gold Birch gold group can help you (00:22:48) do just that with Birch gold you can (00:22:51) create a wellth thought-out and balanced (00:22:53) investment strategy they'll help you (00:22:55) convert an existing Ira or 401K into an (00:22:57) IRA Gold without paying a penny out of (00:23:00) pocket diversify into gold today just (00:23:03) text Jordan to (00:23:27) 9898917350 so you you you talked about (00:23:30) it as being standard practice you know (00:23:33) to affirm well there's something else we (00:23:35) should point out here too that's part of (00:23:37) the absolute toxicity of the present (00:23:39) environment is that it's not only (00:23:42) standard (00:23:43) practice if you don't do it as a (00:23:46) therapist your college your your (00:23:48) governing board will come after you (00:23:50) especially if someone complains so if (00:23:52) you're a therapist and you dare say (00:23:55) especially you can imagine a situation (00:23:56) where you're dealing with an adolescent (00:23:57) and the parents have somewhat different (00:23:59) views of the problem and you say to the (00:24:03) family as you should say don't rush into (00:24:07) any long-term decisions you know this (00:24:10) girl who thinks she's a boy or vice (00:24:12) versa the former is more common the (00:24:15) evidence suggests that 80% of people in (00:24:18) that situation will grow out of it by (00:24:20) the time they're 18 and that the Do no (00:24:22) harm pathway forward is to provide (00:24:26) therapeutic counseling perhaps (00:24:28) but not to do anything precipitous now (00:24:30) one parent takes objection to that maybe (00:24:33) a narcissistic parent with borderline (00:24:35) personality disorder because that tends (00:24:36) to be the case in such situations and (00:24:39) decides to write to the College of Psy (00:24:41) psychologists the governing body or to (00:24:43) the College of Physicians well under the (00:24:46) current law and the current culture the (00:24:49) probability that your life will there (00:24:52) then instantly be turned upside down in (00:24:54) some permanent way and that your (00:24:56) livelihood itself will be threatened and (00:24:58) your reputation Savaged even assuming (00:25:01) that you don't face legal repercussions (00:25:04) is extremely high so what I've watched (00:25:06) this has all happened as a consequence (00:25:08) of all that Bloody flag waving about (00:25:11) eliminating the conversion therapy that (00:25:13) was never occurring to begin with right (00:25:15) it's all these consequences of these (00:25:17) adle paded ideologically enforced laws (00:25:20) and so in Canada I've been faced with (00:25:22) the spectacle of my colleagues knowing (00:25:26) full well that everything that's (00:25:27) happening on the transgender front is a (00:25:29) complete bloody murderous lie being (00:25:32) absolutely unwilling to say anything in (00:25:34) public because if they do their (00:25:36) livelihoods will be instantly threatened (00:25:38) by their governing boards so it's not (00:25:40) just standard practice it's it's you do (00:25:43) it or else and then that's combined with (00:25:46) the fact in Canada here's another (00:25:47) example the governing boards that that (00:25:51) that um accredit university programs (00:25:54) that produce clinical psychologists now (00:25:56) and this is happening with all the (00:25:58) therapeutic Endeavors are refusing to (00:26:00) Grant accreditation to any University (00:26:02) that doesn't Orient their clinical (00:26:05) training towards social justice and so (00:26:08) let's unpack that so now you train (00:26:11) therapists that the world is made up of (00:26:13) victims and victimizers and you insist (00:26:16) that they adopt that guys and now you go (00:26:18) out as a therapist and some poored girl (00:26:21) comes to talk to you when she's 13 and (00:26:24) confused and you pay a tremendous amount (00:26:26) of attention to her when she puts your (00:26:28) in the victim position you covertly (00:26:31) reinforce that partly because you have (00:26:33) to legally and partly because you've (00:26:35) been addled by your training and one of (00:26:37) the things you know if you're a (00:26:38) behavioral therapist is that whatever is (00:26:40) rewarded will make itself manifest and (00:26:42) so these poor kids that you're talking (00:26:44) about who take their mental health (00:26:46) diagnosis as their identity they do that (00:26:49) because they acrew the benefits of (00:26:52) differential attention for doing so it's (00:26:55) unbelievably toxic and it's such an (00:26:57) indict of our entire education system (00:26:59) too you imagine that what we're offering (00:27:02) young people as a vision of the future (00:27:05) is so unbearably toxic and (00:27:07) counterproductive that they will choose (00:27:09) to be diagnosed with a mental health (00:27:12) disorder in preference to (00:27:15) normality yeah I mean that's right (00:27:17) obviously but but there's another (00:27:19) problem which is why are parents handing (00:27:21) over their kids to therapists at at the (00:27:26) first first indication of any problem in (00:27:29) fact any no matter how minor deviation (00:27:31) from a benchmark they go to diagnose and (00:27:35) medicate and the problem is not only do (00:27:37) we not know what goes on in that room (00:27:39) not only does the profession make no (00:27:41) make no effort to track um harmful (00:27:45) effects of their interventions unlike (00:27:48) doctors who are mandated you know to (00:27:50) report uh side effects of their drugs um (00:27:54) not only is that going on but you know (00:27:56) we're seeing kids have these harms and (00:28:00) there's no feedback mechanism anxiety is (00:28:03) worse therapists don't tra track whether (00:28:06) their whether their treatments have made (00:28:08) anxiety worse or depression worse for a (00:28:10) kid and we know therapy can do that and (00:28:14) we certainly know the therapeutic (00:28:16) interventions the focus on feelings (00:28:18) constantly constantly ruminating on sad (00:28:21) moments in your life the way they're (00:28:23) asked to in school all of that is very (00:28:26) bad for mental health um and and (00:28:28) constantly questioning everything you're (00:28:30) going to do before you do it all of (00:28:32) these are the opposite of what we would (00:28:34) want young people to do and that's what (00:28:36) therapeutic School schooling efforts (00:28:39) have done parenting efforts have done (00:28:41) and and and actual therapists have done (00:28:44) and and I'll say you know the last thing (00:28:46) is that you know (00:28:48) parents unwillingness to assert their (00:28:50) own authority in their homes has been a (00:28:54) disaster because it let therapists in (00:28:56) the door to be that Authority and (00:28:59) unfortunately unlike parents therapists (00:29:02) are incentivized to keep the least sick (00:29:04) coming back for the longest period of (00:29:07) time well I'm going to defend parents (00:29:10) for a moment because sure um well I'd (00:29:13) like to shed light on why they do that I (00:29:16) mean the the the narcissistic (00:29:19) compassionate types you know so they're (00:29:21) the ones that tilt towards borderline (00:29:23) personality disorder let's say so we (00:29:26) know maybe that about half the mothers (00:29:29) of daughters who have rapid onset gender (00:29:32) dysphoria and who move forward with (00:29:34) therapy and treatment up to half of them (00:29:36) are diagnosable with something like (00:29:38) borderline personality disorder that's a (00:29:41) big problem so one of the (00:29:43) characteristics of people with (00:29:44) borderline personality disorder is that (00:29:46) they will manipulate other people in any (00:29:49) way that you could possibly imagine to (00:29:51) gain attention for themselves and if (00:29:53) that means sacrificing their children to (00:29:55) their pretentions of compassion that's (00:29:58) no problem at all now if you're in a (00:30:01) relationship with someone like that the (00:30:04) probability that you're going to be able (00:30:05) to withand that pressure especially when (00:30:07) the system itself is is has its guns (00:30:10) aimed on you and if you do stand up and (00:30:14) say you know I I don't think my child (00:30:16) should be heading in that direction that (00:30:18) you're going to be pillared as uncaring (00:30:20) and as a victimizer and then it's even (00:30:22) worse because the bloody therapists and (00:30:24) this is where I'm most appalled about my (00:30:26) colleagues who accepted this uh claim (00:30:30) emanating from the worst of the (00:30:32) Psychopaths that well you know would you (00:30:34) rather would you rather have a live (00:30:37) trans child or a dead child now I tell (00:30:40) you man there's not a parent an ordinary (00:30:43) parent like a non psychologically (00:30:45) trained Planet uh parent on the planet (00:30:49) who when faced with that accusation by a (00:30:51) physician or a psychologist isn't going (00:30:54) to fold say oh my God this is worse than (00:30:56) I thought there's some risk that my (00:30:58) child will commit suicide and if I don't (00:30:59) get on board with this in every possible (00:31:02) way and something terrible happens it's (00:31:04) going to be laid at my feet and then if (00:31:07) the accusations of being uncaring and (00:31:10) victimizing are going along with that (00:31:12) well it's just and then the other thing (00:31:15) too that's happening Abigail is that (00:31:17) parents just can't believe these things (00:31:19) are happening in their schools you know (00:31:20) like I'm seeing this in Canada I I know (00:31:23) Canadians are so asleep that it's kind (00:31:25) of miracle and I've tried to think that (00:31:28) through it's like okay how can people be (00:31:29) so bloody blind and then I think okay (00:31:32) you can stay (00:31:34) blind and assume that it's still 1990 so (00:31:38) roughly speaking the political parties (00:31:40) do what they say they'll do and they're (00:31:42) trustworthy the Legacy Media isn't lying (00:31:44) all the time the educational (00:31:45) institutions aren't completely corrupt (00:31:48) the Judiciary is still intact the legal (00:31:50) system hasn't Twisted itself into knots (00:31:54) or you can dismiss all that as some sort (00:31:57) of right-wing conspiratorial thinking (00:31:59) and continue along your Merry path and (00:32:01) if the price you pay for that is that (00:32:03) the the psychopathic teachers get their (00:32:06) claws in your child by the time you (00:32:08) figure that out it's going to be a bit (00:32:09) too late and I'm really seeing this in (00:32:11) especially in Canada it's like (00:32:14) people even if you bring these things to (00:32:16) their attention they think and I can (00:32:19) understand this they think there's no (00:32:20) way things can be that bad you have to (00:32:22) be imagining it and now and then i' I've (00:32:25) stepped back and thought well Jesus you (00:32:26) know I did get (00:32:28) harassed by my University and my (00:32:29) governing board which is still going on (00:32:31) and so maybe I've got more paranoid than (00:32:33) I should be you know and then I see what (00:32:36) happened in Washington DC with the (00:32:38) presidents of upen MIT and Harvard and I (00:32:41) think oh no I saw this seven years ago (00:32:44) as clear as a bell and it's worse even (00:32:48) than I think and certainly it's making (00:32:50) itself manifest in this pathological (00:32:52) therapeutic environment right now you (00:32:54) said something very interesting too (00:32:57) here's something something cool so if (00:33:00) you do statistical analysis you can (00:33:03) group self you can group the statements (00:33:06) that make people that people make about (00:33:08) themselves into (00:33:09) categories and so one category is (00:33:12) negative emotion and so if you have if (00:33:15) you're high in the trait of negative (00:33:17) emotion be associated with depression (00:33:19) and anxiety you feel more shame and more (00:33:22) guilt more anxiety and more (00:33:24) depression self-referential state ments (00:33:27) of all kinds load with neuroticism okay (00:33:31) this is an unbelievably important (00:33:33) Discovery they load so completely that (00:33:36) the personality test used for assessing (00:33:39) neuroticism the the most common one the (00:33:42) neop has (00:33:44) self-consciousness as a subset of (00:33:47) neuroticism so that means there's no (00:33:49) difference between being self-conscious (00:33:52) and being depressed and anxious they're (00:33:53) they're not linked they're the same (00:33:55) thing so now you go to therapy a and the (00:33:58) halfwit therapist does nothing but make (00:34:02) you self-conscious right well why does (00:34:05) so and the and the implication is and (00:34:08) your teachers in school do the same (00:34:10) thing your teachers guide you in social (00:34:12) emotional learning they do emotions (00:34:14) check-ins they are constantly asking you (00:34:16) how are you feeling it is the best way (00:34:20) to induce depression and anxiety in kids (00:34:24) and that's what they're doing nonstop (00:34:26) and unfortunately parents are not only (00:34:28) handing over their kids to these people (00:34:30) but they're doing it themselves they're (00:34:32) constantly checking in they're letting (00:34:34) therapists guide their parenting instead (00:34:36) of taking the Reigns back and doing what (00:34:39) we know works better with kids number (00:34:41) one is Parental Authority which of (00:34:43) course doesn't mean being cold it (00:34:45) doesn't mean being cruel it just means (00:34:48) that that the parents make the rules for (00:34:50) the house not some therapist well we (00:34:53) could so this also speaks to the issue (00:34:56) of POS of identity you know and I've (00:34:59) I've been trying to take this apart (00:35:00) because I'm so embarrassed about the (00:35:02) clinical Enterprise now and I thought (00:35:05) you know our whole notion of mental (00:35:06) health is actually it's it's corrupt and (00:35:09) the reason for that is that we think (00:35:11) mental health is mental it's inside it's (00:35:14) subjective right and if you're healthy (00:35:16) it's because you're self-actualizing (00:35:18) right and if you're unhappy it's because (00:35:20) the self isn't properly organized as an (00:35:23) interior structure but the problem with (00:35:26) that is it's just it's actually not true (00:35:29) and you can tell that's not true because (00:35:31) you can't be happy in a miserable (00:35:33) marriage and the reason you can't be (00:35:35) happy in a miserable marriage is because (00:35:37) you're you but you're also your married (00:35:39) self and then you're your married self (00:35:41) plus your friendships and your business (00:35:43) relationships and your ties to the (00:35:45) broader community and what what what (00:35:48) psychological well-being is it's not (00:35:51) even the right term what what human (00:35:53) well-being is is proper situation in a (00:35:56) hierar Archy that includes the social (00:35:58) environment and so what that implies is (00:36:01) that the more you think about yourself (00:36:05) the less you're focusing on how to (00:36:08) establish solid reliable and reciprocal (00:36:12) social relations right an intimate (00:36:14) relationship friendship the bonds of a (00:36:17) family and then the the the N the what (00:36:19) would you say the less tightly (00:36:23) [Music] (00:36:24) wound binding that you have with the (00:36:26) broader community (00:36:27) in the absence of all that you (00:36:29) concentrate on yourself well not only (00:36:31) you're miserable and depressed and (00:36:32) anxious you're also isolated lonely and (00:36:35) insane and that all stems from that (00:36:37) initial presumption that all we would (00:36:39) have to do is get your head straight and (00:36:41) you'd be sane it's like and so you think (00:36:44) what does that also mean for the (00:36:45) identity of kids because we should be (00:36:47) teaching them look you're going to have (00:36:49) to take your place in the world you need (00:36:51) a partner you need some friends you need (00:36:54) an occupation you need an educational (00:36:56) plan like you have to situate yourself (00:36:57) in the world none of that's relevant (00:37:00) anymore all that is is oppression it's (00:37:02) no bloody wonder the kids choose a (00:37:04) mental health diagnosis as the (00:37:06) alternative to the normality that's (00:37:08) nothing well we what we did was we G (00:37:11) gave kids these incredibly unhealthy (00:37:13) lives as you said these atomized lives (00:37:16) and we told them that they were so (00:37:18) unique in the world and separable and (00:37:20) that that was all all that was important (00:37:22) and then we poured Mental Health (00:37:24) Resources into an incredibly unhealthy (00:37:27) life and then mental health experts pose (00:37:29) as the solution to the unhappy life (00:37:32) meanwhile they've been participating the (00:37:34) entire time in in the idea that kids are (00:37:37) weak in the idea that they can't get (00:37:39) through a car ride without without an (00:37:41) iPad that they need to be told (00:37:43) constantly that they are loved and that (00:37:45) they are amazing at everything they have (00:37:47) guided everything in the wrong direction (00:37:50) they have provided nothing that we know (00:37:52) to be good for making kids feel you know (00:37:55) actually achieve happiness happiness one (00:37:57) of them is not focusing on your (00:37:59) happiness and not making happiness your (00:38:01) goal another thing is doing things for (00:38:03) others in the world feeling part of a (00:38:05) social fabric all those things that you (00:38:07) said are so important none of those help (00:38:11) have a role for a mental health expert (00:38:13) which is why the mental health experts (00:38:14) took us in the wrong direction yeah (00:38:16) experts yeah well I watched the bloody (00:38:19) social psychologists and the educational (00:38:22) psychologists put forward psychological (00:38:25) principles that were so appalling (00:38:27) misguided for decades it was just (00:38:29) painful to watch so one of them that (00:38:31) emerged out of social psychology which (00:38:32) is a discipline with plenty of sins on (00:38:35) its conscience the whole self-esteem (00:38:37) movement to me was just a jaw-dropping (00:38:39) nightmare watching that as a trained (00:38:41) clinician it's like I see so your (00:38:44) presumption is that you can make kids (00:38:48) feel good about themselves by (00:38:50) celebrating non achievements that's your (00:38:53) plan and so that swept through the (00:38:55) school system like mad and so that was (00:38:57) just as Jean twang twang has pointed out (00:39:00) that was just a pathway it was really (00:39:01) what they were doing Abigail was they (00:39:03) were instructing children in how to be (00:39:06) narcissistic and that narcissism was (00:39:09) confused with self-esteem right and (00:39:11) what's really strange this is quite (00:39:13) interesting so technically speaking if (00:39:15) you look at self-esteem scales there's (00:39:17) actually no difference between them and (00:39:19) scales of negative emotion it's a false (00:39:22) construct so if you have low self-esteem (00:39:26) which is not something that technically (00:39:28) exists it's no different than being (00:39:29) depressed and anxious and you don't lift (00:39:33) people out of depression and anxiety by (00:39:35) making them narcissistic which is what (00:39:37) the social psychologist recommended and (00:39:39) then the educational psychologist okay (00:39:42) then they Foster this dependency that (00:39:44) you described so that children can't (00:39:47) they can't even go out of their bloody (00:39:49) house without asking for permission (00:39:51) right everything every important (00:39:53) decision has to be made with guidance (00:39:55) right so they're fostering dependency (00:39:56) like a devouring mother so they're (00:39:59) teaching narcissism they're fostering (00:40:01) dependence then they Implement these (00:40:04) this whole culture of trigger warning (00:40:06) and protection which is exactly the (00:40:09) opposite of what you would do if you (00:40:10) were an actual like uh credible (00:40:13) therapist because what you do to make (00:40:16) people less anxious is find out what (00:40:18) they're afraid of and then expose them (00:40:21) in graduated doses to what they're (00:40:23) afraid of you don't say well you're a (00:40:25) victim and now you have to protected (00:40:27) from everything what you do if you do (00:40:29) that is you make them worse so lukanov (00:40:31) has claimed and I think he's exactly (00:40:32) right is that if the Therapeutic (00:40:35) Community the educational psychologists (00:40:37) and the social psychologists the social (00:40:39) workers all included had set out to (00:40:42) design a course of action to make (00:40:44) children as mentally unstable as (00:40:47) possible and they used the proper (00:40:49) behavioral techniques to do so we would (00:40:51) have ended up in exactly the situation (00:40:53) we're in right now teaching them to be (00:40:55) narcissistic teach them to be and (00:40:58) Destroy Merit at the same time teach (00:41:00) them to be dependent shelter them from (00:41:03) everything and have them focus in a (00:41:06) NeverEnding uh process on their own (00:41:09) feelings right it's so it's so (00:41:12) diabolical that well it's the sort of (00:41:14) thing that you know drives you down (00:41:16) conspiratorial webs it's I can't believe (00:41:19) it's happened it's it's jaw-dropping so (00:41:22) what what have you seen as the (00:41:23) manifestations of this what have you (00:41:25) been writing about specifically in your (00:41:26) new book so uh to take one example you (00:41:30) know I interviewed a a woman i' I've (00:41:31) known for a long time who runs a major (00:41:33) by named Evelyn I call her Evelyn in the (00:41:35) book who who runs a major uh cellular (00:41:38) biology lab at one of our nation's (00:41:39) Premier Research institutions and she (00:41:42) tells me that the kids she's seeing (00:41:45) aside from all their you know the (00:41:47) anxiety and depression and the fact that (00:41:49) they constantly in the last decade (00:41:51) update her on their mental health (00:41:53) regularly uh that's not something she's (00:41:55) ever asked for but they now give her (00:41:57) updates but the other thing is they're (00:41:59) afraid to try for the first time even (00:42:03) the most qualified kids with strong (00:42:05) scientific backgrounds are afraid to (00:42:07) make a move without checking with her (00:42:09) and they're afraid to do anything on (00:42:11) their own things that K kids with less (00:42:14) ability less scientific grounding ought (00:42:17) to be able to go for it they can't go (00:42:19) for it their sense of agency has been (00:42:21) eroded that's not from social media okay (00:42:25) that's not from smartphones entirely if (00:42:28) at all it's from an idea that you it's (00:42:31) treatment dependency I have to check (00:42:33) with an adult or exp bird before I do (00:42:35) anything that's what our young adults (00:42:37) now think and I do think that our (00:42:39) therapeutic era and our therapeutic (00:42:41) so-called experts have taught 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(00:43:30) easier way to make sure you're getting (00:43:31) your daily dose of fruits and vegetables (00:43:34) experience balance of nature for (00:43:35) yourself today go to balance of (00:43:38) nature.com and use promo code Jordan for (00:43:40) 35% off your first order as a preferred (00:43:43) customer plus get a free bottle of fiber (00:43:45) and spice that's balanceof nature.com (00:43:48) promo code Jordan for 35% off your first (00:43:51) preferred order plus a free bottle of (00:43:53) fiber and (00:43:55) Spice (00:43:57) oh okay well there's something else so (00:43:59) we could add to the Litany of ways to (00:44:02) teach your children to be neurotic the (00:44:04) following okay so let's deem all (00:44:07) competition (00:44:09) inappropriate okay so any competitive (00:44:11) Enterprise is inappropriate okay so why (00:44:14) would we do that well there is a thrill (00:44:16) in Victory but there is a catastrophe in (00:44:19) defeat right and there's negative (00:44:20) emotion associated with defeat and then (00:44:23) you might say as well that the positive (00:44:25) emotion associ Victory is morally (00:44:27) untenable because it comes at someone (00:44:30) else's expense so that's an extension of (00:44:32) the victim victimizer narrative okay so (00:44:34) now you eradicate competition all right (00:44:37) so why so in favor hypothetically of (00:44:39) cooperation whatever you get rid of (00:44:41) competitive games for example or or you (00:44:44) dissuade them so now what's the (00:44:46) consequence of that well we might say (00:44:48) well why do you teach why do you (00:44:51) encourage children to play competitive (00:44:53) games and you might say well they can (00:44:54) develop the skills it's fun and they (00:44:57) have the possibility of winning but (00:44:59) here's a better (00:45:00) Theory it teaches them to (00:45:03) lose right it teaches them that that you (00:45:06) do lose it teaches them that you can (00:45:10) lose it teaches them that you can lose (00:45:13) gracefully without a catastrophe and (00:45:15) then you can get up on your feet and you (00:45:17) congratulate the winners and you can go (00:45:19) on playing okay so now imagine all of (00:45:22) that's been taken away from you right (00:45:24) right up to the time you're 18 you've (00:45:26) never failed in your bloody life and so (00:45:29) now you're terrified of it because you (00:45:31) think that at the bottom of the failure (00:45:32) pit is nothing but utter Insanity well (00:45:35) now that's true for you because you're a (00:45:37) complete novice at failing how the hell (00:45:40) are you going to take a risk right so (00:45:42) part of what you know you you see this (00:45:45) when you go see your kids in in a in a (00:45:47) sporting event what you hope is that (00:45:48) your child has enough sense to be a (00:45:52) gracious loser and the reason there's no (00:45:55) here's a problem position for you (00:45:57) there's no difference between being a (00:45:59) gracious loser and being (00:46:02) resilient they're the same thing so we (00:46:05) forgo competition in the name of the (00:46:08) protection of the feelings of the losers (00:46:10) and what we do is we demolish (00:46:11) everybody's resilience along with these (00:46:14) other four catastrophic failures that we (00:46:16) listed and why did we become afraid why (00:46:18) did we become afraid of competition why (00:46:20) did we become suddenly fearful that our (00:46:22) child would ever lose why did we the (00:46:24) moment they ever did you know exhibited (00:46:27) any Behavior outside of of the norm (00:46:30) maybe thought they had a a different (00:46:31) gender identity why did we rush them to (00:46:33) an expert why if they' never reached any (00:46:35) D metric do we rush them to an E expert (00:46:39) because we were afraid of trauma trauma (00:46:42) was at the heart of a lot of this we (00:46:44) became terrified of this Bugaboo trauma (00:46:47) now it isn't the case that any of these (00:46:49) things produce trauma or damage to our (00:46:52) kids the best psychological research of (00:46:55) course shows that is it's the opposite (00:46:57) resilience is the norm whenever there's (00:46:58) a potentially traumatic effect you know (00:47:01) uh event for a child but we parents (00:47:03) became so terrified of trauma that they (00:47:06) stopped trusting their instincts they (00:47:09) stopped trusting what they knew was (00:47:11) right what they knew in their bones was (00:47:13) best for kids and instead became overly (00:47:15) dependent on people who were very much (00:47:18) incentivized to want to treat sick kids (00:47:22) and to claim that the least sick were (00:47:25) actually quite sick and continue to (00:47:27) treat them and that's what we're seeing (00:47:30) all right so let me offer you a terrible (00:47:32) hypothesis okay because we might as well (00:47:34) in for a penny in for a (00:47:36) pound so behind this I can't help but (00:47:40) see the Spectre of the devouring mother (00:47:42) so I'm going to lay out a hypothesis for (00:47:44) you and it's a terrible hypothesis and I (00:47:47) hope it isn't true but you tell me what (00:47:48) you think about this okay so now we're (00:47:51) in landscape where half of women who are (00:47:54) 30 are childless (00:47:57) and half of them will never have a child (00:48:00) and 90% of them will regret it okay so (00:48:03) that's 20% of women that's going to be (00:48:05) their fate and according to Jonathan (00:48:06) height and his new research that fate is (00:48:09) much more likely among more liberal (00:48:11) women okay so that's the that's the (00:48:14) statistical reality so now we're also in (00:48:17) a situation where much of the direct (00:48:20) care and administrative work that's (00:48:22) associated with the education of (00:48:24) children all the way through from (00:48:26) kindergarten through university is in (00:48:28) the hands of women from the ages of 20 (00:48:31) to 40 now a subset of those women are (00:48:35) going to have a hyperdeveloped maternal (00:48:37) side that has the proclivity to treat (00:48:40) anything in their view site as an (00:48:43) infant so I'm thinking that part of the (00:48:46) reason that we've transformed the (00:48:49) entire educational Enterprise which is (00:48:52) fundamentally female dominated into an (00:48:54) overgrown Nursery is because it's run by (00:48:57) W it's run by women who have misplaced (00:49:00) their maternal Instinct because and (00:49:02) here's why I think (00:49:05) this women have this terrible conundrum (00:49:07) when it comes to children and it's a (00:49:09) really tough conundrum and I think this (00:49:11) is probably why human beings are parir (00:49:13) bonding (00:49:14) creatures so my daughter just had a baby (00:49:17) and the baby is a month premature and (00:49:19) she said the baby just wants to be with (00:49:20) me nonstop it's like it isn't even want (00:49:23) right it's absolute bloody need and the (00:49:25) right attitude for a woman for the first (00:49:27) year of a child's life starts to switch (00:49:30) around 9 months so let's say N9 months (00:49:32) the first nine months is every single (00:49:35) need that child has is to be regarded as (00:49:38) 100% accurate unquestionable and to be (00:49:42) immediately responded to and so that (00:49:45) instinct has to be extraordinarily (00:49:47) powerful because infants who don't have (00:49:49) someone around who are operating on that (00:49:52) basis they're either going to die or (00:49:54) they're not going to thrive and I mean (00:49:57) the human infants are unbelievably (00:49:58) fragile it doesn't take that much to (00:50:00) disrupt that early Bond and that can (00:50:02) have catastrophic consequences okay so (00:50:04) that means that women first of all have (00:50:06) that proclivity it's at hand right and (00:50:09) then it also means that they have to (00:50:11) undergo this very difficult process when (00:50:14) the child starts to mature the (00:50:15) psychoanalysts called it the necessarily (00:50:18) the necessary failure of the good mother (00:50:20) is that you have to step the hell back (00:50:23) right you got to stop doing everything (00:50:25) for helpless infant even though that was (00:50:27) the most spectacular manifestation of (00:50:30) your love and you have to let the child (00:50:32) bump up against the world and get hurt (00:50:35) and that is a damn difficult thing to (00:50:37) negotiate and to some degree that's when (00:50:39) fathers step in you know because they'll (00:50:41) encourage they have a higher threshold (00:50:44) for child distress let's say especially (00:50:48) in that transition from infancy to (00:50:50) toddlerhood now you got to ask yourself (00:50:52) we've had this radical trans demographic (00:50:55) transformation that it's unfolded over (00:50:56) the last 40 years and so most women half (00:51:00) of women now at 30 are still childless (00:51:02) what the hell's happening to that (00:51:05) maternal proclivity and I would say well (00:51:08) it's overpour into the educational (00:51:11) establishments and you see that with the (00:51:13) therapeutic industry as well and so (00:51:15) because when I look at the universities (00:51:17) I think oh I see Everyone's an infant so (00:51:21) it's like there's infants infant (00:51:24) caregivers and predators (00:51:26) that's the simple world of of that's the (00:51:29) most simple basic feminine physiological (00:51:33) world and I think our institutions have (00:51:35) been transformed (00:51:37) into what would you say NeverEnding (00:51:40) nurseries you know Freud you know one of (00:51:43) the things about Freud that that that (00:51:45) people have forgotten like Freud pointed (00:51:49) to the pathological narcissism of (00:51:52) dependency inducing mothers as the (00:51:55) biggest developmental impediment to (00:51:57) human beings that's the edle (00:52:00) situation no and that's an unbelievably (00:52:03) accurate observation you know we we are (00:52:05) very dependent human beings and we need (00:52:07) our mothers but the fact that that (00:52:09) maternal provision is so absolutely (00:52:11) necessary also means it can go (00:52:14) spectacularly wrong and something like (00:52:17) you're you're you're looking for a (00:52:18) solution right because you said Well it (00:52:20) can't just be social media it it's not (00:52:22) just social media it can't just be the (00:52:25) education system system like is it not (00:52:27) possible that this is reflective of a (00:52:29) more fundamental transformation in the (00:52:31) way that men and women are operating in (00:52:33) society there there's no question but we (00:52:36) did come to see our kids as weak we came (00:52:38) to see them as infants the problem is we (00:52:41) had traditions of child rearing we had a (00:52:44) sense of knock it off Shake it off (00:52:45) you'll be fine not for a kid a broken (00:52:48) arm but for minor injuries we used to (00:52:50) tell our kids that we remember that from (00:52:51) our own childhoods but we stop trusting (00:52:54) ourselves and rely on Experts and they (00:52:57) taught us that our kids were weak that (00:52:59) they could never recover and I'll give (00:53:00) you an example I got a call I got (00:53:02) actually an email from a woman who loved (00:53:05) my last book and she was a child (00:53:07) psychologist from a very trained very (00:53:08) wealth trained very good school she's in (00:53:10) her 60s and she really wanted to be of (00:53:12) help with my new book bad therapy so (00:53:14) okay she's a parenting coach and a child (00:53:17) psychologist and I and she told me with (00:53:19) my last book I was doing the Lord's work (00:53:21) that's what she called it I said okay I (00:53:23) would love to talk to you so I called (00:53:24) her and said I said you know I'm going (00:53:27) to ask you some questions about child (00:53:28) why we're seeing so much pain in the (00:53:29) rising generation can we speak on the (00:53:32) record and she saidoh no no no (00:53:33) absolutely not my my adult daughter uh (00:53:36) if she finds out I talk to you she'll (00:53:38) cut me off right right now this is a (00:53:41) woman who's a parenting (00:53:43) coach the number of people she should be (00:53:46) advising on parenting is (00:53:49) zero because she has raised a daughter (00:53:52) to adulthood who if she disagreed with (00:53:55) with her mother about who her mother (00:53:57) talks to what journalist she talks to (00:53:59) would cut her off you see we stopped (00:54:03) taking the we stopped being devoted to (00:54:05) making our kids strong and making them (00:54:08) decent that used to be the goal of (00:54:10) parenting but instead we thought oh no (00:54:13) the the idea of parenting is to make (00:54:15) them mentally healthy we're going to (00:54:17) shoot for wellness and we did a terrible (00:54:20) job of that and we didn't make them (00:54:22) strong and we didn't make them decent so (00:54:26) why okay so let's see if we can figure (00:54:27) out why that happened you know like it (00:54:30) it's it's often useful if you do a (00:54:34) diagnosis of any given situation (00:54:36) properly the first thing you do is look (00:54:39) for contextual factors right now people (00:54:42) generally don't do this to themselves if (00:54:43) they're looking at why they are in (00:54:46) trouble they'll look for a self- (00:54:48) attribution right and there's some (00:54:50) there's something about that that's (00:54:51) admirable because it's taking (00:54:52) responsibility but people are more (00:54:54) determined by situations if they're (00:54:56) healthy than they are by their own (00:54:58) intrinsic temperament so the first thing (00:54:59) you do as a good diagnostician is you (00:55:01) think okay what are the overarching (00:55:03) contextual issues here that are at play (00:55:05) so maybe we could figure that out so (00:55:06) you're pointing to the fact that somehow (00:55:09) parents lost faith in their ability to (00:55:13) even in their children's ability to (00:55:15) direct themselves so let me offer you a (00:55:17) couple of reasons for that you tell me (00:55:18) what you think okay well first of all we (00:55:20) have fewer (00:55:21) children so that means every child is (00:55:24) more precious (00:55:26) if for no other reason that parents (00:55:27) aren't outnumbered like when you have (00:55:29) six kids you can't focus obsessively on (00:55:32) all of them you just don't have the time (00:55:34) plus they're torturing each other and (00:55:35) raising each other to a fair degree but (00:55:38) if you have one (00:55:39) child you can focus all your attention (00:55:41) now let's let's make that worse not only (00:55:44) do you only have one child you didn't (00:55:45) have that child till you were 30 and so (00:55:48) you're pretty bloody attached to that (00:55:50) child and it's your last (00:55:52) chance right and you're wealthy are (00:55:55) comparatively wealthy so now you're (00:55:59) you're desperate to make sure that (00:56:00) everything that could it could possibly (00:56:02) be good happens to this child you're not (00:56:04) going to get another chance and you have (00:56:05) endless resources to pour into them okay (00:56:08) so so just those and then you can (00:56:11) imagine this as well the child doesn't (00:56:15) have a lot of siblings doesn't have a (00:56:16) lot of cousins and so that means that (00:56:18) any proclivity for narcissism that that (00:56:21) child might manifest naturally and that (00:56:23) might be even encouraged by the parents (00:56:25) is not going to be pounded out of them (00:56:27) in the various ways that siblings and (00:56:30) cousins would absolutely take it out of (00:56:32) them right and then you add to that too (00:56:34) the fact that children are more isolated (00:56:36) than they were in terms of their play (00:56:38) patterns they don't play freely together (00:56:40) almost all play episodes are scheduled (00:56:43) even if they're scheduled the idiot (00:56:45) parents will often plop the kids down in (00:56:46) front of a TV or a screen so they don't (00:56:49) play that means they're not socializing (00:56:51) each other and so that's a that's a very (00:56:54) toxic brew and we we have no idea what (00:56:56) you know the typical Caucasian mother is (00:57:00) now old first time is old enough to be (00:57:02) the typical Caucasian (00:57:04) grandmother right it we've almost got to (00:57:06) that point we have no idea we have no (00:57:09) idea what that signifies in terms of of (00:57:12) its effect on on reproductive patterns (00:57:14) and also the case that we have so many (00:57:16) kids that are only (00:57:18) children that older mothers richer (00:57:21) parents these are massive changes and (00:57:23) it's and maybe maybe part of the (00:57:26) consequences exactly what we're talking (00:57:27) about is that the children are doomed to (00:57:30) being over plus then there's a worse (00:57:32) situation too (00:57:34) because people are more atomized and so (00:57:37) that also means that the (00:57:40) multigenerational wisdom that might be a (00:57:43) necessity for knowing how to raise (00:57:46) children is also disappearing I just (00:57:49) help my son and and and my (00:57:51) daughter-in-law work through a (00:57:52) disciplinary issue with their 12 12 (00:57:55) month- old daughter and my son and my (00:57:58) daughter-in-law pretty together people (00:58:02) and I had I had told them what they (00:58:05) could do but telling them didn't work I (00:58:09) had to show them they couldn't really (00:58:13) put what was necessary into practice (00:58:15) without have without it being directly (00:58:17) modeled and so we also don't know how (00:58:20) much of the (00:58:21) intergenerational wisdom that was part (00:58:23) and parcel of an intact culture we've (00:58:25) completely obliterated because of you (00:58:28) know extreme social Mobility for example (00:58:31) so I think a lot of the factors you (00:58:32) mentioned do play a role but I want to (00:58:34) tell you why I think that the mental (00:58:36) health experts in our complete (00:58:38) therapeutic flooding with therapy and (00:58:41) therapeutic Concepts has played a big (00:58:42) part in it okay and that is because we (00:58:45) look at other cultures I interviewed a (00:58:47) woman in who runs the Georgetown (00:58:48) emotions lab who looks and I asked her (00:58:50) why kids were so young people were so (00:58:52) disregulated in America when you look at (00:58:55) other cultures and they're doing much (00:58:57) better like Japan they only have one (00:58:59) child in Japan and you you mentioned (00:59:01) that might be a factor but they don't (00:59:04) treat their children as fragile they're (00:59:06) not haunted by the possibility of trauma (00:59:09) that a spanking that anything could (00:59:11) traumatize a child they're not haunted (00:59:13) and they think Independence for a child (00:59:15) meaning going off and doing things (00:59:17) without oversight is a good in fact in (00:59:20) preschools in Japan there are areas that (00:59:23) the children could get hurt and areas (00:59:25) where the teacher can't see and the idea (00:59:27) is kids have to be able to negotiate (00:59:29) their own interpersonal conflicts with (00:59:31) each other without an adult intermediary (00:59:34) they do the same thing in Israel in (00:59:36) Israel at age eight kids are supposed to (00:59:39) get on a bus and go to school you were (00:59:40) look down on if your parents drive you (00:59:42) it is not done in Israel if your parents (00:59:45) drive you to school why because they (00:59:46) need to be able to negotiate how to get (00:59:48) to a su a school bus and by the way (00:59:51) along the way it turns out you uh do uh (00:59:53) Dr chova uh (00:59:55) told me this that she followed these (00:59:57) kids because she did research on these (00:59:59) kids and along the way they were talking (01:00:01) they were going into a bakery and buying (01:00:03) themselves something they were talking (01:00:04) to neighbors they were learning to (01:00:06) handle themselves all the kid things (01:00:08) that kids in the west used to learn to (01:00:10) do because the parents gave them the (01:00:12) freedom to do it before we became (01:00:15) surveillance parents terrified of (01:00:17) emotional injury we let kids be we let (01:00:20) them go off and do things and handle (01:00:22) their own conflicts and it made them (01:00:24) strong ER and then we became terrified (01:00:27) that we couldn't let them because they (01:00:28) would be because they were actually weak (01:00:31) and this idea that anything could (01:00:33) traumatize your child anything could (01:00:35) leave a lasting psychological imprint (01:00:37) that they could never get rid of this (01:00:39) came right from the mental health (01:00:41) industry this came right from the idea (01:00:43) that the body keeps the score it holds (01:00:45) on to your trauma forever you can never (01:00:47) let it go it's not true um according to (01:00:50) many many experts I interviewed and it (01:00:53) but unfortunately it's led to all kind (01:00:55) kind of terrifi Terror that any child (01:00:58) childhood trauma causes adult (01:01:01) Psychopathology and and also also false (01:01:04) that adult Psychopathology is (01:01:06) necessarily caused by childhood trauma (01:01:08) neither is true nor is it true that (01:01:11) being permanently damaged by a traumatic (01:01:13) incident is the norm resilience is the (01:01:15) norm so all these bad ideas I I believe (01:01:18) really came through the vector of the (01:01:20) mental health experts well thing okay so (01:01:24) we might as well offer some definition (01:01:27) so people experience negative emotion (01:01:30) when some when an OB when an unexpected (01:01:34) obstacle arises in their path okay and (01:01:37) those can take two forms they can be (01:01:38) obstacles that you can skirt or they can (01:01:41) be obstacles that stop you in your (01:01:44) tracks okay the more important the thing (01:01:47) you're (01:01:48) pursuing the more likely an obstacle (01:01:51) that stops you in your tracks is to (01:01:53) cause trauma (01:01:55) okay and what the trauma is is the (01:01:57) dissolution of the structure of (01:02:00) direction that you were engaging in so (01:02:03) here's an example this would be an (01:02:05) example of a relatively serious (01:02:07) emotional upset let's say so you're you (01:02:10) decide you want to be a (01:02:11) doctor and you work very hard at it and (01:02:14) you take the MCAT and you get your (01:02:16) results and you're in the 15th (01:02:18) percentile okay so that's likely to (01:02:20) cause a fair bit of emotional upset and (01:02:24) worse it you're not going to be a (01:02:26) doctor that's gone now imagine you put (01:02:30) 40% of your resources into that plan (01:02:34) okay so now the trauma is that you have (01:02:37) to sacrifice that 40% investment now (01:02:40) then you might say well the the norm is (01:02:43) resilience okay so the way that becomes (01:02:45) not a trauma is you decide to become a (01:02:48) nurse let's say and that (01:02:50) works when you encounter an obstacle (01:02:53) you've got two choices (01:02:55) you can either figure out how to get (01:02:56) around it and continue on your path or (01:02:59) you can choose A New (01:03:00) Path if you're incapable of choosing A (01:03:03) New Path then you're traumatized now you (01:03:06) might say well you know how serious is (01:03:10) the trauma and the answer is well it (01:03:11) depends on how important the plan was so (01:03:13) here's another example let's say you're (01:03:15) happily married and you have been for 10 (01:03:17) years and you trust your husband (01:03:19) implicitly then you find out that he's a (01:03:21) Serial womanizer and he's had affairs (01:03:23) that stem back from before you were (01:03:26) right right from the time you you (01:03:27) started going out with him so everything (01:03:29) you think you know about him is a lie (01:03:32) okay so now the trauma is your whole (01:03:34) past is a lie your present no longer (01:03:37) exists and your future whatever the hell (01:03:39) it is isn't what you think it's going to (01:03:41) be and then it's even worse than that (01:03:43) because if you were that Bloody gullible (01:03:46) how much of everything else you do is (01:03:48) now up for question okay so that just (01:03:50) does people in now those sorts of things (01:03:53) do happen to people right and if they're (01:03:56) unresolved they leave a permanent (01:03:59) ho said if they're unresolved right now (01:04:02) as you pointed out generally people (01:04:04) resolve such things but not inevitably (01:04:08) now the problem doesn't come so much (01:04:11) with the notion that some things are (01:04:12) traumatic the problem comes with being (01:04:15) unable to dis differentiate between (01:04:18) trauma you know like your marriage is (01:04:21) over and falling off your when you're (01:04:25) learning to ride a bike when you're (01:04:26) going to a playground right is there has (01:04:28) to be a distinction (01:04:30) between levels of negative emotion and (01:04:33) partly what you want to do with your (01:04:34) child is you want to expose them to (01:04:36) situations where they encounter (01:04:38) obstacles even serious obstacles losses (01:04:41) for example in a championship game so (01:04:44) that they can learn strategies of (01:04:46) resilience so so I don't think it's (01:04:49) exactly fair to so well I don't think (01:04:51) it's fair to put put the problem at the (01:04:53) hands of people who make the claim that (01:04:55) such a thing as trauma exists it's more (01:04:58) accurate to put the blame at okay okay (01:05:00) okay so so fine I just let me give you (01:05:02) let me give you a a prior story to your (01:05:04) story what if we welded the training (01:05:06) wheels onto the bike so they could never (01:05:08) be removed what if we started out (01:05:10) childhood where we only gave the kids (01:05:12) the softest fabrics and any foods they (01:05:15) didn't like we substituted for Foods (01:05:17) they did like and if and if a dog scared (01:05:19) them we we asked all our neighbors to (01:05:21) Crate their dogs whenever we visited and (01:05:23) what if we told the kids over and over (01:05:25) we affirmed all their worries and we (01:05:27) dropped everything to deal with their (01:05:29) worries because that's what the best (01:05:30) experts were telling us to do what if we (01:05:32) never let them choose a friend we didn't (01:05:34) like or get their hearts broken and then (01:05:36) we rush to intercede the moment they (01:05:39) expressed any hurt they might show up to (01:05:41) at college so unprepared not even to (01:05:45) fail their medical you know tests but (01:05:48) even to deal with any minor danger or (01:05:51) discomfort that we would see what we're (01:05:53) seeing kids having nervous breakdowns (01:05:56) over the most humdrum challenges and in (01:05:59) fact you know this this woman who's the (01:06:01) head of the emotions robaba Georgetown (01:06:02) who I interviewed Dr chova Dutton when (01:06:05) she said to me that when she look when (01:06:06) she did research cross-culturally on (01:06:09) emotional responses to dangers in young (01:06:12) adults that American Kids tend to (01:06:15) exaggerate the degree of danger posed by (01:06:18) small things like a stranger on the (01:06:20) street looking at you funny that felt (01:06:22) dangerous to American Kids why because (01:06:25) they' never had to face even these small (01:06:28) risks themselves uh we were too afraid (01:06:31) to let them yeah well that's the classic (01:06:34) that's the classic edle nightmare so in (01:06:37) the in the Disney snow so one of the (01:06:40) things you see about classic Disney (01:06:41) movies is that there's almost always an (01:06:43) evil (01:06:44) queen right and what the evil queen does (01:06:47) is interfere with the development of the (01:06:49) prince or the princess right so in Snow (01:06:52) White the evil queen is jealous of of (01:06:54) the upcoming princess's Beauty jealous (01:06:57) of the fact that she gets a chance to (01:06:59) establish a new relationship and (01:07:01) perfectly willing to poison her because (01:07:04) of her Envy right and in Sleeping Beauty (01:07:07) you have Prince I think it's prince (01:07:09) philli in Sleeping Beauty she locks him (01:07:11) in a dungeon and tells him that she's (01:07:14) going to keep him there until he's so (01:07:16) old that nobody could possibly find him (01:07:19) attractive and when he does manage to (01:07:23) escape uh with the help of some feminine (01:07:25) fairies little feminine fairies which (01:07:27) are like emblematic of the mother who's (01:07:29) actually useful she turns into like the (01:07:33) dragon that's the ultimate predator and (01:07:37) virtually Burns him to the ground right (01:07:40) well so this is this is the reason I'm (01:07:42) I'm pointing out these symbolic (01:07:44) representations is because this (01:07:46) proclivity of symbolically feminine (01:07:50) overprotection to become the ultimate (01:07:52) destructive force is a motif that's been (01:07:55) developed through the entire (01:07:57) developmental history of humanity and (01:08:00) its literature it's like that it's an (01:08:03) unbelievable danger and for some reason (01:08:05) as you pointed out it's become (01:08:06) increasingly dominant in our culture and (01:08:09) it's not something about which people (01:08:11) can have very straightforward (01:08:13) conversations you know but I I think the (01:08:16) story that you described is exactly (01:08:17) right now one of the things we do know (01:08:19) too is that the mothers who are (01:08:23) overbearing in that manner are also (01:08:27) those who are more likely to show the (01:08:31) kinds of they call it cluster B (01:08:32) Psychopathology so it's it's this weird (01:08:34) intermingling of hyper compassion but (01:08:38) it's hyper compassion turned for (01:08:40) narcissistic purposes so look the mother (01:08:43) that you just described here's what she (01:08:45) can do she can tell all her neighbors (01:08:48) and her family how much of a martyr she (01:08:51) is for spending every bloody second of (01:08:53) her whole whole life doing nothing but (01:08:55) caring for her poor infant so now she's (01:08:58) super mother and the payoff for her is (01:09:00) well of course she can't pursue her own (01:09:02) career of course she can't take on any (01:09:05) responsibilities because she's so busy (01:09:07) pouring out every excess resource she (01:09:09) has into this child and so she's (01:09:12) perfectly motivated to make her child as (01:09:15) miserable and wretched as possible (01:09:17) because that opens up the space for her (01:09:20) overweening what maternal compassion to (01:09:22) dominate completely so that she can (01:09:25) parade her virtue to her friends and her (01:09:27) neighbors right and child yeah and the (01:09:31) child will end up overtreated they will (01:09:33) end up diagnosed they will end up on (01:09:34) psychotropic drugs so they never feel (01:09:37) life at full force they never feel they (01:09:39) can do things on their own and you know (01:09:41) you started by talking about Khloe Cole (01:09:43) and when I was researching about G you (01:09:45) know the rapid rise in transgender (01:09:47) identification one of the things a (01:09:48) therapist never told her is that gender (01:09:51) dysphoria like a lot of psychological (01:09:53) issues isues that someone can have or or (01:09:56) problems someone can have they actually (01:09:58) resolve by growing up puberty often (01:10:01) cures a lot of uh gender dysphoria so (01:10:04) too I mean this is the subtitle of the (01:10:06) book why the kids aren't growing up (01:10:08) you're growing up believe it you know (01:10:10) adulthood growing into adulthood is (01:10:13) actually the cure for a lot of the (01:10:15) troubles teenagers are beset with and if (01:10:18) we gave kids the resources to grow up if (01:10:21) we weren't afraid for them to be two (01:10:23) steps away from us or for us not to (01:10:25) surveil them constantly um it and we let (01:10:28) them grow up a lot of these problems (01:10:30) would resolve on their own we're just (01:10:32) not letting them well the clinical (01:10:34) literature shows that clearly is that (01:10:36) that it's 80% of gender dysphoria (01:10:39) conditions resolve on their own by the (01:10:41) age of 18 well it's also partly and I (01:10:44) think this is Tangled into the ideology (01:10:46) like if we regard our culture as such as (01:10:50) nothing but (01:10:52) oppressive then taking your place in (01:10:55) that culture does nothing but oppress (01:10:57) you and make you an oppressor right so (01:11:00) that pretty much takes everything that (01:11:01) adulthood could offer off the table (01:11:03) right and I certainly see this also in (01:11:05) what schools do to young men like (01:11:08) schools teach young men that their (01:11:11) ambition is nothing but the (01:11:13) manifestation of oppressive patriarchal (01:11:16) power and so you basically take all of (01:11:18) the benefits the moral benefits of (01:11:20) becoming an adult off the table you (01:11:22) don't say to a young man it's like (01:11:24) well you know when you're a child you (01:11:27) have the possibilities of the world at (01:11:29) hand and and you're relatively free from (01:11:34) um care and privation but the price you (01:11:38) pay for that is you have no Independence (01:11:40) and the beauty of being an adult is you (01:11:44) you're free to have your adventure (01:11:46) you're free to have your adventure you (01:11:48) can you can sink or you can swim and (01:11:50) there's real cost to that but the payoff (01:11:53) is (01:11:54) you can you can have your life and and (01:11:57) you can do great things and you can (01:11:59) serve other people and you can take your (01:12:01) place as a husband and as a as a an (01:12:04) honored member of the community and you (01:12:05) can do useful things in the world and (01:12:07) that's so worthwhile that giving up the (01:12:11) pleasures of childhood is is the obvious (01:12:14) thing to do I there isn't a school in (01:12:17) the country I think maybe that's a bit (01:12:19) of an exaggeration where that's ever (01:12:21) made explicit to young people you know (01:12:24) may maybe Hill College maybe Hillsdale (01:12:27) College and that's about it yeah right (01:12:29) but also not a home in the country and (01:12:31) that's part of the problem so in other (01:12:33) words you know when parents were felt (01:12:35) comfortable being authorities in their (01:12:37) own home with their own kids there was (01:12:39) something for kids to Aspire to but (01:12:42) through this gentle parenting the (01:12:44) therapist-led parenting that we're (01:12:46) seeing where the role of the parent is (01:12:48) really to be an empath to feel a child's (01:12:51) pain and to adjust and accommodate it (01:12:53) there's nothing nothing for a child to (01:12:54) graduate too it doesn't look so great to (01:12:58) be a child's slave and that's what (01:13:00) parents have become so the P so there is (01:13:02) no reason to adoles out of (01:13:05) childhood um and we're not offering them (01:13:07) a reason there's no (01:13:09) graduation well you can also understand (01:13:12) why that's a vicious spiral right (01:13:15) because you can also understand why (01:13:17) young people would be more loath to have (01:13:19) children under those circumstances you (01:13:20) know when I was counseling young women (01:13:23) my my my Essential what would you call (01:13:26) it ideological position I don't think (01:13:28) it's ideological my Essential position (01:13:31) was it's good for you to have your (01:13:34) career when you have your child because (01:13:35) then what you're doing is modeling for (01:13:37) your child the fact that adults have (01:13:39) useful things to do and since your child (01:13:42) is going to have to be an adult that's a (01:13:44) good thing to model now it's going to be (01:13:46) tricky for you to figure out how to get (01:13:48) the balance right because you have to (01:13:50) attend to your children a lot especially (01:13:52) when they're young and you're going to (01:13:53) want to to but that doesn't mean you (01:13:55) should torture yourself with guilt (01:13:57) because as an adult you have a life you (01:13:59) children have to see that so they want (01:14:01) to become adults right and so now if if (01:14:04) the if your destiny as an adult is slave (01:14:09) of two year-old well who the hell who (01:14:11) the hell there's nothing more (01:14:12) demoralizing than being a slave to a (01:14:14) 2-year-old partly because they're little (01:14:16) tyrants most of the time and you can't (01:14:19) give into their the immediacy of their (01:14:21) demands that there's no that's no way to (01:14:23) live and it's stunningly demoralizing (01:14:25) for the 2-year-old because there's (01:14:27) nothing more hopeless and I've seen this (01:14:28) in children there is nothing more (01:14:31) existentially hopeless than a (01:14:33) three-year-old who's in control it's (01:14:36) like where the hell does he have to go (01:14:38) he's already hit the Pinnacle of the (01:14:40) social world as far as he's concerned (01:14:42) whatever he wants goes God and it's (01:14:45) terrifying it's actually terrifying them (01:14:48) to have that much power and and fear is (01:14:51) another thing we're seeing in this (01:14:52) generation they are terribly (01:14:54) fear they also don't want to have kids (01:14:57) this is the first generation where (01:14:58) majority does want to have kids well we (01:15:01) didn't make it look very good um and and (01:15:04) I think that is part of the problem we (01:15:07) didn't give them something to hold up (01:15:09) and say one day I want to be like that I (01:15:11) can and I can do it uh they really doubt (01:15:15) they can do things in the world that (01:15:17) they are ready to raise children that's (01:15:20) so sad you know I just talked to my (01:15:22) son-in-law cuz my daughter just had a (01:15:24) baby and I said to him look here's (01:15:26) something you have to understand you (01:15:29) need to know this that this baby that's (01:15:32) just been (01:15:34) born this person wants nothing more than (01:15:37) to have the best possible relationship (01:15:39) with you that it's possible to have with (01:15:40) anyone that's what they're offering you (01:15:42) is that if you're a father and you have (01:15:45) a clue and you have a new child you are (01:15:49) being offered the opportunity to (01:15:51) establish the best relationship with any (01:15:53) anyone you've ever had in your life and (01:15:56) the person that you could establish that (01:15:58) relationship with wants nothing more (01:16:01) than that so that's a hell of an offer (01:16:03) so then you can just imagine how Bloody (01:16:06) Far We've W walked off any sort of (01:16:09) reasonable pathway so that young people (01:16:11) now look at that with Dread right it's (01:16:15) it's because that notion has become like (01:16:17) you know I had a great career like (01:16:20) because I started my academic career (01:16:21) teaching at Harvard and that was a (01:16:23) pretty d good deal and that place was (01:16:25) really hopping in the 1990s and the (01:16:27) students were great I loved my job and I (01:16:30) really enjoyed the Consulting I worked (01:16:32) and my clinical practice I had a very (01:16:34) fulfilling career and I would certainly (01:16:36) say that that was all well and good but (01:16:39) there was nothing better than being with (01:16:41) my kids than my wife nothing better and (01:16:44) so and the fact that people can't (01:16:46) understand that they see that only as a (01:16:48) burdensome what as as a burden it's so (01:16:51) horrible because it also means that they (01:16:53) don't see they don't they certainly (01:16:56) don't see the best of what life has to (01:16:58) offer I also feel very sorry for young (01:17:00) women it's so perverse you know because (01:17:03) most of the notion (01:17:05) that women shouldn't be locked at home (01:17:08) let's say barefoot and pregnant with (01:17:10) their little kids a tremendous amount of (01:17:12) that comes from the left and it's so (01:17:14) weird to me because the leftist ID (01:17:17) ideologues insist that women need to be (01:17:19) freed to do what to enter the corporate (01:17:22) world and I think okay well I thought (01:17:24) you guys were leftwing how did we get to (01:17:26) the situation where it was obvious that (01:17:29) what a young woman should do is (01:17:31) prioritize her slavery to the capitalist (01:17:34) Endeavor in favor of being at home with (01:17:37) her kids especially when they're young (01:17:38) now I know I'm exaggerating to some (01:17:40) degree but but it's so we lie terribly (01:17:45) to young men and we demoralize them but (01:17:47) The Lies We Tell young women are of a (01:17:49) whole different order of magnitude that (01:17:52) the notion that career is going going to (01:17:53) be more important than anything else and (01:17:55) that you should forego children for that (01:17:58) I I don't know if I've ever met anyone (01:18:00) for whom that was actually true I I (01:18:03) completely agree and I think that you (01:18:05) know if we had a ro more robust (01:18:08) confidence among parents you would see (01:18:11) that communicated because I don't know (01:18:12) parents for whom that isn't true (01:18:14) certainly it's true for me there's (01:18:16) nothing in my life that has been more (01:18:18) gratifying or more imbued my life with (01:18:20) more meaning than having my own children (01:18:22) it was by far the most dramatic change (01:18:25) in my life when I had kids and we've (01:18:28) forgotten what a profound opportunity (01:18:30) and sense of meaning and responsibility (01:18:32) it is because we let the experts analyze (01:18:34) it and we actually started taking on (01:18:36) their oh we started describing our kids (01:18:39) I when I interviewed parents I would (01:18:41) hear them talk about their kids (01:18:42) according to their diagnosis well this (01:18:44) is my ADHD kid I would hear them say you (01:18:48) hear that now well my kids Spectre me (01:18:50) you know that's not how parents ever (01:18:52) talk to about their children why because (01:18:55) they were our kids and it didn't matter (01:18:58) what the experts what categories the Ed (01:19:00) what Rubik's they fell under they were (01:19:02) they were our children and somewhere (01:19:04) along the line we forgot that and we (01:19:06) started looking through at our own (01:19:07) children through the lens that these (01:19:09) experts gave us and it's wrong and it's (01:19:11) damaging to our relationship with them (01:19:14) how old were you if you don't mind me (01:19:16) asking how old were you when you had (01:19:17) your first child 31 okay okay so so you (01:19:22) okay so now you said know you just said (01:19:24) that there wasn't anything in your life (01:19:26) that had happened to you that that was I (01:19:28) had a client very high achieving um (01:19:32) lawyer right and she was very attractive (01:19:34) person very hardworking like she she had (01:19:39) she was quite an admirable person and (01:19:41) then she had a baby and she and she told (01:19:43) me she was quite funny she said well I'd (01:19:45) always sort of thought of children as (01:19:47) like an fashion accessory up to this (01:19:49) point you know is something else you (01:19:50) added to your life and she was (01:19:52) absolutely dumbfounded at the degree to (01:19:54) which she fell in love with her child (01:19:55) and she had a child pretty late you know (01:19:58) and it just turned her love life upside (01:19:59) down and you see I saw this with women (01:20:01) in law firms all the time is you know (01:20:03) they were high performing career (01:20:05) oriented women and then they'd have a (01:20:06) child and they'd think (01:20:08) oh nothing I ever did was nearly as (01:20:12) significant as this so what what what (01:20:14) did that come as a revelation to you (01:20:16) like did you expect that what what (01:20:18) happened in your case I'll tell you a (01:20:20) moment where I realized it when my Sons (01:20:23) were four years old they were they had (01:20:25) started u playing piano I have twin sons (01:20:28) and um one of my sons we got to the (01:20:31) recital and he was very nervous and they (01:20:33) had the kids get up there and say my (01:20:35) name is Jack and you had to say your (01:20:37) name and I and uh uh identify the piece (01:20:40) you were going to play and he started to (01:20:42) get very nervous he didn't want to get (01:20:43) up there and I didn't know what to do I (01:20:45) thought this could be catastrophe should (01:20:47) I take him out maybe it's too young and (01:20:49) my husband said to me just let him let (01:20:51) him be and I did I just backed off let (01:20:54) him do this he was very nervous I didn't (01:20:55) know if and they called him up there and (01:20:58) he he announced to the crowd as loud as (01:21:01) as as could be my name is Jack and I'm (01:21:03) going to play and announced his piece (01:21:06) and I can tell you it was the proudest (01:21:08) I've ever been in my life there's (01:21:10) nothing I've ever done that brought me (01:21:12) more Pride than that moment and I got (01:21:14) the first Glimpse in that moment that (01:21:17) maybe they could my my son would be able (01:21:19) to handle himself in a world with people (01:21:21) well that was so cool a because that (01:21:23) means that's so cool because there's (01:21:25) there was a conjunction there that was a (01:21:27) that was a true moral conjunction right (01:21:31) so first of all your husband said the (01:21:33) right thing so he played out his role (01:21:36) right second of all you listened and you (01:21:39) backed the hell off third your son (01:21:42) stepped forward right and so those (01:21:46) things all came together beautifully and (01:21:48) and that meant that you could see that (01:21:50) he was on his way right and there isn't (01:21:52) any you know and that's such a that's (01:21:55) such a integral element of deep human (01:21:58) motivation it's part of mentoring there (01:22:01) one of the things I loved about being a (01:22:02) university Professor was the opportunity (01:22:05) to do that with young people who weren't (01:22:07) my own children it's like because what (01:22:09) you want to do is you want to find (01:22:10) someone who's got some wherewithal and (01:22:13) provide them with the opportunity to (01:22:16) manifest what's next in them right and I (01:22:19) don't I really don't believe that there (01:22:21) is anything that's more satisfying than (01:22:24) participating in that and it makes sense (01:22:26) right because it is part of fostering (01:22:27) the maturation process and and helping (01:22:30) other people aim up but it's so cool (01:22:32) that that's not only an instinct that (01:22:34) can manifest itself within a family but (01:22:36) that can generalize to your relationship (01:22:38) with other people and in not being able (01:22:40) to be a part of that you know the great (01:22:42) men that I've known great women as well (01:22:45) but I guess I've probably seen it more (01:22:47) in men and maybe it's somewhat more (01:22:49) surprising in a way most of the Great (01:22:52) Men I knew I I knew who had established (01:22:57) remarkable careers remarkable in every (01:23:00) way one of the things they took Prime (01:23:03) pleasure in maybe at the top of the (01:23:05) hierarchy was Finding young people who (01:23:08) had ability and fostering their (01:23:11) development you know I have my (01:23:13) brother-in-law Jim Keller great engineer (01:23:16) as he's got older that's become a bigger (01:23:18) and bigger part of his life to find (01:23:19) really promising young people and just (01:23:21) to lay out opportunities for them and to (01:23:23) watch them grow and Thrive and my (01:23:25) graduate adviser Robert Peele he was (01:23:28) like that man I mean I went to his Fest (01:23:31) shrift which is a celebration of his (01:23:32) academic career and he had like 30 of (01:23:34) his students there most of whom done who (01:23:36) did very very well and to a man and (01:23:39) woman they said you know Bob did (01:23:41) everything he could to Foster our (01:23:43) careers when we worked with him and you (01:23:45) could see you know that was just an (01:23:46) endless source of delight for him and (01:23:49) the fact that young people don't (01:23:50) understand that that possibility is (01:23:52) sitting in front of them in relationship (01:23:53) to the children they might have is like (01:23:56) that's a cataclysmic indictment of our (01:23:58) culture it's so awful well they haven't (01:24:01) been raised to be loadbearing walls see (01:24:03) when we used to raise kids to be (01:24:05) loadbearing walls they said I can handle (01:24:08) it and now we've raised a generation (01:24:10) that doesn't think it can that has been (01:24:12) taught by so many experts to second (01:24:15) guess itself to check in to have an (01:24:17) adult oversee everything they do they (01:24:19) don't believe they can and and let me (01:24:22) just say you I'm I'm not someone who's (01:24:24) against therapy I talk about therapy (01:24:25) I've had in you know in in in my book (01:24:28) but I will say something it's very (01:24:29) different with you're when you're an (01:24:31) adult in therapy because you have the (01:24:32) ability to push back on a therapist you (01:24:34) can say to a therapist listen I think (01:24:36) we're blaming my mom a little too much (01:24:38) uh you can say to her you know I'm not (01:24:40) sure I I gave you the right impression (01:24:42) it's much harder for a child to say I (01:24:44) don't think it's fair to call what my (01:24:45) mom did abuse it's much harder for a (01:24:48) child to do that so there's much more (01:24:50) potential for it to be undermining of (01:24:52) the the child's sense of agency and (01:24:54) efficacy and Power in the world yeah (01:24:58) yeah well okay so something you just (01:25:00) said there um we haven't taught our (01:25:03) children to be loadbearing walls and so (01:25:05) a bunch of ideas ran through my head (01:25:07) when you said that one (01:25:09) was that's a matter of lack of faith (01:25:12) right because you actually you have to (01:25:15) offer the proposition that you can bear (01:25:18) a load before you're willing to hoist it (01:25:20) onto your shoulders right I mean we're (01:25:22) in a culture where people assume that (01:25:24) you need evidence at every step of the (01:25:27) adventure and that's (01:25:30) actually fundamentally that's false (01:25:32) because when you encounter something new (01:25:35) you have no evidence that you can manage (01:25:37) it you can you can use induction based (01:25:40) on your previous success and to some (01:25:42) degree that's relevant but induction is (01:25:44) famously fallible and you can assume you (01:25:47) can bear a load and then not right so (01:25:49) you can even if if you have the evidence (01:25:51) at hand that doesn't mean that it's (01:25:53) incontrovertible means you have to have (01:25:55) faith and you're you made you implied (01:25:58) that you have to have the faith that (01:25:59) you're loadbearing you know I've been (01:26:01) writing this new book called we who (01:26:03) wrestle with God and I'm looking at the (01:26:05) psychological significance of the (01:26:07) symbolic landscape at the base of our (01:26:09) culture you know and the fundamental the (01:26:11) fundamental presumption of our culture (01:26:13) is that you should bear a load that you (01:26:15) should and you can and you'll find your (01:26:17) destiny and that that's exactly what (01:26:19) hoisting your cross voluntarily means (01:26:22) right is that not only can you take a (01:26:24) load you can take the ultimate load and (01:26:27) even better than that that you find your (01:26:29) true calling and Destiny in your (01:26:31) willingness to take the ultimate load (01:26:34) you know and that is an optimistic (01:26:35) message because life is an unbearable (01:26:38) load and the only possible medication (01:26:41) for that in the final analysis is that (01:26:43) you're an infinitely loadbearing (01:26:45) creature because otherwise how can you (01:26:47) manage it and you might be you know and (01:26:50) and it seems to me the adventure (01:26:51) stronger yeah continually able to Bear (01:26:54) more yes yes right and that that's the (01:26:57) way to build muscle in every sense and (01:27:00) that couraged is to be praised right (01:27:03) that those are the things willing that (01:27:04) that are to be praised and and that's (01:27:07) that is what we need to be telling our (01:27:09) kids and I think when we were left to (01:27:11) when parents were more or less left to (01:27:13) their own devices parent family (01:27:15) tradition wisdom that they had from (01:27:17) their parents other people who had (01:27:18) raised good kids to adulthood that's (01:27:21) what we knew we remember that that you (01:27:23) were part of a family that your job was (01:27:25) to do well for others and to do the best (01:27:27) you could not to be praised for things (01:27:29) you hadn't done or things that were (01:27:30) frankly easy to do right and and I think (01:27:34) that they they grew up with a much more (01:27:36) sense of meaning and purpose and (01:27:38) ultimately even happiness than we're (01:27:41) seeing today all right so we've walked (01:27:43) through all this and you've spent a lot (01:27:44) of time thinking about it um you got any (01:27:48) ideas for a Way Forward I mean I look at (01:27:51) the educational system RIT large and I (01:27:54) think oh no it's done like it's so (01:27:59) corrupt the faculties of Education are (01:28:02) absolutely intolerably in corrupt and (01:28:06) they have been for 60 years and during (01:28:08) that time they've done nothing but (01:28:11) deteriorate the teachers that are being (01:28:14) produced by these faculties are not only (01:28:16) incompetent they're absolutely addled (01:28:19) ideologically and the universities are (01:28:23) are they (01:28:24) worse if it they's certainly no better (01:28:27) generally speaking and they might be (01:28:29) worse and so that's a damning indictment (01:28:33) and well you know you started looking at (01:28:38) one misapplication of the therapeutic (01:28:41) mindset embedded in this broader (01:28:43) ideology and then you broaden to think (01:28:45) oh well this is happening all sorts of (01:28:47) places it's like okay fair enough what (01:28:50) do we do about it practically speaking (01:28:52) you know like a return to what was it's (01:28:56) vague you know what I mean and it's it's (01:28:57) it's got that that conservative tendency (01:29:01) to to to offer the past as a solution (01:29:04) and there's something to that but where (01:29:06) where do you see bright lights and (01:29:08) possibilities moving forward absolutely (01:29:11) this is where I'm most optimistic it's (01:29:13) what parents can do it's what we've (01:29:15) always known how to do okay we've known (01:29:18) this for you know since the beginning of (01:29:20) Time how to raise good people and we've (01:29:22) done it and the way to do it in our over (01:29:25) with these overtreated kids is to (01:29:27) proceed by (01:29:29) subtraction remove the psych meds they (01:29:32) don't need the diagnosis you don't (01:29:33) believe in the uh over monitoring over (01:29:37) codling over accommodation over (01:29:40) avoidance of everything uh unpleasant (01:29:43) and give them more responsibility be the (01:29:46) authority in your home transmit your (01:29:49) values and stop allowing intermediary to (01:29:52) come between you and your children if (01:29:54) you do that you will raise good kids and (01:29:57) you don't have to be as afraid of the (01:30:00) teacher in school who doesn't share your (01:30:01) values because your kid is armed and you (01:30:04) don't have to be as terrified of social (01:30:05) media because your kid is ready by that (01:30:08) by the time you you finally allow it and (01:30:11) that's what I think we need to focus on (01:30:13) okay so you might say well why should a (01:30:15) parent have any faith in their own (01:30:17) ability given the confrontation they (01:30:20) have with expertise and and I say look (01:30:23) parents here's something you got to (01:30:25) understand is (01:30:26) that if you love someone you are going (01:30:30) to be as powerfully oriented as you can (01:30:33) and so are all your instincts in the (01:30:34) right direction you know like if I have (01:30:36) a child I genuinely love I want the best (01:30:38) for for them that's what love means and (01:30:41) that means that even if I'm not (01:30:43) particularly educated or maybe even not (01:30:45) particularly (01:30:46) perspicacious I am likely because of my (01:30:49) motivation to see the right Pathways (01:30:51) forward and because I care for that (01:30:53) child that's going to make itself (01:30:54) manifest to me the problem with the (01:30:56) bloody experts is that they don't love (01:30:58) your children and May and they can't you (01:31:01) know I mean we have a limit to the (01:31:04) degree to which we can shower maternal (01:31:07) true maternal or paternal love on other (01:31:09) people I mean suppose if you became a (01:31:11) saint like love your children right they (01:31:13) they don't believe in them and they (01:31:15) don't believe in them they see them as (01:31:17) weak they see them as damaged they see (01:31:19) them as a somewhere on a spectrum of dis (01:31:23) function they don't know what they can (01:31:25) do but parents do cuz they're with their (01:31:28) kids and they know what people can (01:31:30) handle because it's what they could (01:31:32) handle as kids if you could survive a (01:31:35) car trip without an iPod iPad your kid (01:31:38) can if you could survive a heartbreak (01:31:41) without a therapist your your C child (01:31:44) can too she can survive the death of a (01:31:46) bet without Pro uh working it through (01:31:48) with a (01:31:49) therapist all those things that we've (01:31:52) known that kids can you can get through (01:31:55) and emerge stronger on the other side (01:31:58) and there's all kinds of people around (01:31:59) including very many of our own parents (01:32:02) who raised good people um people who (01:32:04) were productive citizens other people (01:32:06) could rely on ask them for advice but (01:32:10) not the experts whose whose own you know (01:32:13) recommendations what what the fruits of (01:32:15) that are anyone's guas well we're seeing (01:32:18) what the fruits of it what the fruits of (01:32:20) of it is and and it's not good it's not (01:32:23) good yeah yeah (01:32:25) so how has writing these last two (01:32:30) books transformed the way that you live (01:32:32) your life it's it's funny they really (01:32:35) have especially this one this one was (01:32:37) much more close to home because it's (01:32:38) three kids I'm raising I I didn't have a (01:32:40) kid with a gender uh transgender (01:32:43) Identity or anything like that but I do (01:32:44) have three kids who are in this Rising (01:32:46) generation and um it changed me in a lot (01:32:50) of ways I talked to a lot of parents a (01:32:51) lot of psychologist a lot of (01:32:52) psychiatrists who are very good very (01:32:54) respected academic psychologists (01:32:55) including you and um and one of the (01:32:58) things I started doing was when my (01:33:00) 9-year-old asked if she could walk home (01:33:02) from the bus stop alone I started (01:33:03) letting her even though I hated it I (01:33:06) hated it I still hate it but I let her (01:33:08) and one of the things I learned from (01:33:09) parents is if you curtail kids (01:33:11) Independence too much at some point they (01:33:13) stop asking they get used to the (01:33:16) cage they know that it's no Triumph to (01:33:19) walk home alone at 13 but it is at 9:00 (01:33:23) and I started giving my kids more chores (01:33:25) because it was only none of my hectoring (01:33:28) helped make them more responsible but (01:33:29) when I sent them with a backpack and a (01:33:31) credit card to the store for me and they (01:33:33) had to come back with the right items (01:33:35) and if they didn't I sent them back they (01:33:37) started paying attention to getting it (01:33:39) right and no amount of yelling at them (01:33:41) had helped them pay attention to those (01:33:43) details before but this did and they got (01:33:45) to know they got to be able to talk to (01:33:47) people on their own other adults and (01:33:49) navigate things like the grocery store (01:33:51) on their own and that was better for (01:33:53) them than any number of lessons I had (01:33:55) given them uh summer camp was another (01:33:58) thing I did sleep away camp with you (01:34:00) know which was a no technology sleep (01:34:02) away camp this was phenomenal because (01:34:04) the opportunity to be away from my (01:34:07) supervision frankly was incredibly good (01:34:10) for them and their sense of s (01:34:11) self-esteem but there are other things (01:34:13) too extended family making sure that (01:34:16) even if I even if I thought extended (01:34:18) family didn't say the right things or (01:34:20) didn't give them the right food to let (01:34:22) it happen because you know what I don't (01:34:24) know what situations my kids will fall (01:34:26) into none of us knows but we do know (01:34:28) that these web of connections that they (01:34:30) have are very important in a stable and (01:34:33) healthy and happy life and even if I (01:34:35) don't love all the influencing Com or (01:34:37) all the comments made to to them or all (01:34:39) the jokes even if I don't deem them all (01:34:41) you know the most appropriate at that (01:34:43) stage for my kids that there's something (01:34:45) bigger at stake there that my kids feel (01:34:48) connected to a larger family and a (01:34:50) larger community and set of stable (01:34:52) connections and I let I started letting (01:34:54) it happen and that's what I think we (01:34:56) need to get back to so what what has (01:34:59) that done to your children's attitude (01:35:02) towards (01:35:04) you well you know so far it it's so good (01:35:07) I mean you know I don't think they have (01:35:09) any doubts that you know I'm not their (01:35:12) friend um but but that means they really (01:35:14) treasure time with actual friends they (01:35:17) don't rush to confide everything in me (01:35:20) and I think that's okay um I you know I (01:35:23) need to have give them that space to (01:35:25) even be a little defiant if they want to (01:35:28) or even reject some of my advice but the (01:35:31) most important thing is that I give them (01:35:33) my values that I communicate you know (01:35:35) we're the only culture America and I (01:35:38) think North America even are they there (01:35:40) some of the only civilizations that (01:35:41) don't think and in the west actually in (01:35:43) general we didn't do a great job at (01:35:45) communicating our own values to our kids (01:35:47) everyone else seems to know this is the (01:35:49) most important thing I I was at a I was (01:35:51) in invited to speak at a university (01:35:53) recently and um it was a very it was a (01:35:55) conservative group that had invited me (01:35:57) and one of the uh gentlemen who his host (01:36:00) said to me was joking about how his (01:36:02) daughter at college is a communist he (01:36:04) said because of course you know you send (01:36:06) them to college and they all become (01:36:07) Communists and he was sort of laughing (01:36:08) about that and I just thought wow we're (01:36:11) so comfortable in the west with the idea (01:36:14) that someone else will come in and (01:36:16) interpose their values with our own (01:36:18) children that should be step one is (01:36:21) making sure our kids share our values (01:36:23) not that they you know not that we (01:36:24) oversee everything they do or every (01:36:26) interaction they have but they pass on (01:36:29) their values so they become good and (01:36:31) independent and decent people and that (01:36:33) doesn't require expertise that's why the (01:36:35) mental health experts you know certainly (01:36:37) the therapists in general don't tell you (01:36:39) that but that is what actually leads to (01:36:41) a meaningful and good life well Abigail (01:36:44) that's probably a good place to stop so (01:36:48) let's stop when is your book coming out (01:36:51) now is it's available now it's available (01:36:52) now okay so for everybody watching and (01:36:54) listening you can pick up this book now (01:36:56) and hopefully it will (01:36:58) Foster your willingness to let your (01:37:01) children take the dangerous risks that (01:37:04) are necessary to imbue them with real (01:37:06) confidence I'll tell you something that (01:37:08) happened to me in Rome well I went to St (01:37:11) Peters you know and the peda isn't St (01:37:14) Peters and I think Michael Angelo carved (01:37:16) that when he was like 23 or something (01:37:18) you know some some crazy feet of utter (01:37:21) genius and it's very interesting that (01:37:24) it's in St Peter's right because well (01:37:27) you know that's a sacred Place obviously (01:37:28) a central sacred place and I spent a lot (01:37:31) of time thinking about the role of the (01:37:33) feminine in the landscape of the Sacred (01:37:37) you know and and our Central sacred (01:37:39) figure in the Christian West forever has (01:37:42) been some variant of the crucifix right (01:37:45) but the the problem with that is that (01:37:47) it's a male symbol and you know that's (01:37:49) well that begs a question like what's (01:37:52) the primary female symbol (01:37:55) of Union with God in the ultimate (01:37:58) sacrifice and I think Michelangelo (01:38:00) captured it in the pi and I think that's (01:38:02) why it's in St Peter's because what you (01:38:05) have there once you understand it it's (01:38:08) really something you know you could (01:38:11) imagine that there are two kinds of (01:38:12) sacrifices that you could make in the (01:38:14) world that are the most difficult (01:38:15) sacrifice and one would be to sacrifice (01:38:19) yourself and you might think well (01:38:20) there's nothing worse than that and I (01:38:22) would say yeah there might be (01:38:24) sacrificing a (01:38:26) child I think that most parents would (01:38:28) sacrifice themselves before they would (01:38:30) sacrifice their child and so that (01:38:31) implies that sacrificing your child is (01:38:33) worse is harder and that's what a good (01:38:36) mother has to do and so what you see in (01:38:39) the peda is this it's this terrible (01:38:42) image of Mary who's Larger than Life in (01:38:44) the representation and she's holding the (01:38:47) broken body of her (01:38:50) child in her (01:38:52) arms and what that means is that that's (01:38:55) what you have to do as a mother you have (01:38:57) to offer your child up to the world (01:38:59) that's part of the sacrificial gesture (01:39:01) of Eternal motherhood right and that (01:39:03) takes courage you know and it manifests (01:39:06) itself in these small decisions you know (01:39:08) these horrifying decisions you let your (01:39:10) daughter walk home when she's nine it's (01:39:12) like really really what if something (01:39:15) happens it's like right yeah that'd be (01:39:18) that'd be bad you'd never forgive (01:39:20) yourself for that right right but you (01:39:22) have to realize that something's going (01:39:23) to happen either way so either you so (01:39:26) shelter a child she'll never be (01:39:27) independent never be able to navigate (01:39:29) herself never know to recognize real (01:39:31) dangers never know how to calibrate her (01:39:34) response or we or you know either way (01:39:37) something can happen and the question is (01:39:40) do I want to raise a kid who's always (01:39:42) dependent and weak or do I want to raise (01:39:44) a child who's strong who can individuate (01:39:46) one day and I think the answer should (01:39:48) obviously be the latter right right well (01:39:51) that's the right sacrificial gesture (01:39:54) right yeah well so congratulations for (01:39:56) figuring that out very nice talking to (01:39:58) you again great talking to you too thank (01:40:01) you so much Jordan congratulations (01:40:04) congratulations on the birth of your (01:40:05) newest grandchild oh thank you very much (01:40:08) thank you very much yeah yeah and so all (01:40:10) right everyone watching and listening (01:40:12) thank you very much for your time and (01:40:13) attention I think you should rush out (01:40:15) and buy Abigail's new book especially if (01:40:17) you're a parent and you're struggling (01:40:19) with the necessity of being brave enough (01:40:21) to allow your child to place themselves (01:40:25) wisely in danger right CU that's life (01:40:29) that's for sure that's the adventure of (01:40:31) life so we all have to bolster ourselves (01:40:34) up and accept that as a necessity or (01:40:37) celebrate it for that matter which is a (01:40:39) wiser thing to do I'm going to talk to (01:40:41) Abigail for another half an hour as I do (01:40:43) with all my guests on The Daily wire (01:40:45) plus platform and I'm going to walk her (01:40:47) through well her developing interest in (01:40:49) the issues that she's been covering over (01:40:51) the last couple of years and so CU I'm (01:40:53) curious about that and you all might be (01:40:54) too and so if you want to join us on the (01:40:56) dailywire plus side that'd be fine that (01:40:59) way you can uh provide them with some (01:41:01) support too in their attempts to (01:41:02) generate another Enterprise of (01:41:05) communication and entertainment that uh (01:41:08) provides an alternative to the idiot (01:41:10) Legacy establishments that we happen to (01:41:12) be saddled with at the moment so thank (01:41:14) you very much Abigail thank (01:41:20) you (01:41:21) [Music]