Healing Trauma in a Toxic Culture | Dr. Gabor Maté (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:04) people achieving all the successes that (00:00:07) the society has to offer and being (00:00:09) miserable human beings have certain (00:00:11) needs you deprived people of those (00:00:13) things they're going to suffer this (00:00:14) Society simply fails to provide for (00:00:17) those needs of children so it's toxic a (00:00:19) lot of people with ADHD or bipolar (00:00:21) disorder or depression or addictions (00:00:24) very talented creative wonderful people (00:00:27) but that's not because of their (00:00:28) Condition it's because of what underlies (00:00:30) their condition and would underlies (00:00:31) their condition is the only thing that's (00:00:33) genetic which is sensitivity the average (00:00:36) psychiatrist these days has no training (00:00:38) in trauma when somebody gets stabilized (00:00:41) in psychotic medications that's when the (00:00:42) work should begin but the problem is (00:00:44) that's when it ends (00:00:47) there's good news and all that healing (00:00:48) is available it's just inside all of us (00:00:51) the biggest work is the work that we do (00:00:52) in ourselves well there's your true self (00:00:58) welcome (00:00:59) [Music] (00:01:04) look at all these faces (00:01:06) so so beautiful (00:01:09) when I look at all these faces (00:01:13) I think to myself humanity is going to (00:01:15) be all right (00:01:18) we got some shiny humans up in the (00:01:20) building thank you so much I have so (00:01:21) much gratitude for everybody who showed (00:01:23) up today and (00:01:25) the invitation before we begin (00:01:28) is to listen with our whole being I (00:01:33) think that oftentimes we can undervalue (00:01:35) the power of one Insight one nugget what (00:01:38) that can do to transform our lives and (00:01:40) if we can all be present in our bodies (00:01:42) listen with our hearts (00:01:44) who knows what can happen on the other (00:01:46) side of that so let's get things rolling (00:01:48) welcome back to the know thyself podcast (00:01:51) live where I am very excited to create a (00:01:55) series ongoing where we are going to be (00:01:57) bringing elders and wisdom holders and (00:02:01) Community to have a live experience (00:02:03) where we can allow Community to ask (00:02:05) questions and bring conversations (00:02:08) of Awakening (00:02:10) um at a bigger and bigger scale my guest (00:02:12) today is somebody that I've admired and (00:02:14) loved his work for a long time he is a (00:02:17) world-renowned speaker best-selling (00:02:19) author uh and is an expert on various (00:02:21) range of topics from addiction stress to (00:02:23) childhood development he is somebody (00:02:25) that has written multiple best-selling (00:02:27) books such as the body when the body (00:02:29) says no scattered minds and in the realm (00:02:33) of hungry ghosts he is somebody that has (00:02:36) a profound understanding of what we're (00:02:39) going to be diving into today which is (00:02:41) his new book (00:02:42) called the myth of normal it's trauma (00:02:45) illness and healing in a toxic culture (00:02:47) and it's a very timely subject I believe (00:02:50) for the planet right now and for (00:02:52) everybody that's listening because (00:02:54) these messages of Awakening and (00:02:56) understanding holistically where we've (00:02:59) gotten to as a species (00:03:01) um in the Insight that this individual (00:03:02) can bring today I think is just is very (00:03:05) important and very timely so (00:03:07) without further Ado Dr Gabriel Monte (00:03:09) thank you for being here (00:03:11) thank you (00:03:14) thank you thanks for just sitting (00:03:16) through all that (00:03:18) uh well it's been such a pleasure to to (00:03:22) have you here and I would just love to (00:03:24) delay some groundwork before we dive (00:03:25) deep (00:03:27) um and so to kind of start wide and then (00:03:29) we can dive into laser into some of (00:03:30) these different topics could you give a (00:03:33) basic understanding of how you Define (00:03:35) trauma because that is a word that is (00:03:37) used a lot in culture nowadays and can (00:03:40) be misconstrued so how do you define (00:03:42) trauma and we can go from there sure (00:03:44) well let me say first of all what it (00:03:46) isn't (00:03:47) because um (00:03:49) as I've often said now it's a word (00:03:52) that's used too loosely (00:03:54) on one hand it's not used enough not (00:03:56) nearly enough (00:03:57) where it matters is not used at all (00:04:01) in medicine it's not used at all the (00:04:03) average doctor doesn't get a single (00:04:05) electron drama which is amazing (00:04:07) when you do all the (00:04:09) research that's been shown to connect (00:04:12) trauma and adult illness of Mind and (00:04:15) Body whether it's cancer or depression (00:04:19) or addiction so much research but in the (00:04:22) average medical school doesn't hear a (00:04:23) single lecture on trauma unbelievable (00:04:25) but true (00:04:26) it's not used in law (00:04:29) everybody's sitting in death row in this (00:04:32) country with traumatized children (00:04:34) all of them (00:04:35) without exception an average lawyer does (00:04:38) not get a single lecture on trauma not (00:04:40) one (00:04:43) um in the schools all the kids that are (00:04:47) considered to be bullies or troubled (00:04:50) kids or (00:04:51) kids with ADHD or (00:04:53) aggression (00:04:56) learning difficulties (00:04:58) it's all about trauma and the average (00:05:01) educator doesn't get a single lecture on (00:05:04) trauma (00:05:05) that's on the one hand (00:05:07) on the other hand we use the word a bit (00:05:09) too Loosely you know like (00:05:11) I went on a picnic on Sunday and it (00:05:13) rained and I was traumatized no you (00:05:15) weren't you just rained on you know or I (00:05:18) went to I saw this movie last night and (00:05:21) I was traumatized no you weren't you (00:05:23) were just upset (00:05:24) or somebody stood me up on a date and I (00:05:27) was traumatized no you weren't you were (00:05:29) just disappointed so (00:05:32) drama isn't stress it isn't upset isn't (00:05:35) even pain (00:05:36) is a wound (00:05:38) in fact that's what the word means it (00:05:40) comes from a Greek word for wound so (00:05:41) trauma is a wound that you sustain which (00:05:44) then (00:05:46) shows up later on in your life (00:05:48) unhealed it shows up in your Earth (00:05:52) physiology shows up in your thinking in (00:05:54) your relationships you know you feel (00:05:56) about yourself (00:05:58) in how you handle your emotions (00:06:00) so drama basically is a wound and and (00:06:03) the good colleague of mine in the room (00:06:06) Larry Heller who himself has a (00:06:09) particular therapeutic approach and and (00:06:11) and he and I both agree that (00:06:13) trauma is not what happens to you (00:06:17) it's not the terrible things that happen (00:06:18) to you such as you know obvious ones (00:06:21) such as abuse or neglect (00:06:24) it's the wound that you sustain inside (00:06:27) so trauma is not that somebody hits you (00:06:29) on the head it's the concussion (00:06:31) with the long-term effects so basically (00:06:33) trauma is a wound that shows up (00:06:36) later on in life in all aspects of your (00:06:39) existence and there are degrees of it (00:06:41) the different (00:06:43) um (00:06:44) let me just say quickly also that you (00:06:47) can wound people by two ways young (00:06:50) children you can want them two ways you (00:06:52) can do bad things to them (00:06:54) and that happens a lot a lot more than (00:06:56) we like to recognize but you can also (00:06:58) warn kids not by doing bad things to (00:07:00) them but by not giving them their needs (00:07:03) not giving them what they need (00:07:05) so depriving somebody of their need is a (00:07:07) way of hurting them and human beings (00:07:09) have certain emotional needs so a lot of (00:07:11) children it's not that people do bad (00:07:14) things to them (00:07:15) is that they don't know how to meet (00:07:16) their needs and those kids are wounded (00:07:18) as well so it's a wound (00:07:21) amazing and you also give a distinction (00:07:23) between capital T Big T Little T trauma (00:07:26) because a lot of people are familiarized (00:07:27) with the over big cataclysmic events (00:07:30) that happen in people's childhood or in (00:07:31) life but can you give that distinction I (00:07:33) think so well the distinction really is (00:07:36) how the trauma is sustained so (00:07:39) the capital T other one's easy to (00:07:41) recognize so there's a very famous (00:07:45) not famous enough (00:07:47) but very famous adverse childhood (00:07:49) experiences studies the AC studies that (00:07:52) were done here in California (00:07:54) with 17 000 adults (00:07:57) and what they looked at is (00:08:01) certain experiences in childhood what (00:08:03) they call adverse childhood experiences (00:08:05) and adult outcomes so natural experience (00:08:08) was (00:08:09) physical sexual or emotional abuse (00:08:11) that's three neglect (00:08:14) a parent dying a parent being jailed (00:08:19) apparently mentally ill (00:08:21) friend being evicted violence in the (00:08:23) family a divorce (00:08:26) 10 (00:08:28) and you get a point for each (00:08:31) no (00:08:32) the more points you accrue the greater (00:08:35) the outcome in adulthood so for example (00:08:37) with addiction (00:08:38) a male child with six of these (00:08:41) their risk of addiction doesn't go up (00:08:43) six-fold it goes up 46 fold (00:08:47) so that these multiply each other so (00:08:50) these are the adverse shelter (00:08:51) experiences very famous (00:08:53) not famous enough I can talk about that (00:08:56) but famous (00:08:58) um these are the big tea drummers (00:09:00) things that you can identify (00:09:02) more (00:09:04) confusing and more difficult to reckon (00:09:07) with (00:09:08) or what some people including myself (00:09:10) called the small tea trauma which isn't (00:09:12) the bad things that happened but the (00:09:15) good things that didn't happen that (00:09:16) should have (00:09:17) so children are born with certain needs (00:09:19) now it's clear to you (00:09:22) that if I don't feed an infant they're (00:09:24) going to be hurt (00:09:26) I'm not doing anything to them (00:09:29) but I'm also not giving them what they (00:09:30) need (00:09:32) children and human infants human beings (00:09:35) also certain emotional needs and (00:09:37) depriving them of those needs is (00:09:40) traumatizing so a child not getting the (00:09:43) attention they need the love they need (00:09:45) the acceptance they need being seen (00:09:48) being heard (00:09:51) being given the freedom to experience (00:09:53) all their emotions whatever they happen (00:09:54) to be (00:09:55) certain other needs if they're not met (00:09:57) they're also wounded and that's what I (00:09:59) call the small tea traumas these little (00:10:01) things that when you ask people by the (00:10:04) way we can do this experiment in this (00:10:06) room if there's anybody brave enough (00:10:08) um I had this really happy childhood (00:10:12) and then I you know but I've still got (00:10:14) addicted but I still got addicted or I (00:10:16) had autoimmune disease or I had (00:10:18) depression (00:10:20) with malignancy or I had anxiety or I (00:10:23) have ADHD by that happy childhood and (00:10:26) then I issue what I call the happy (00:10:28) childhood challenge which is give me (00:10:30) three minutes (00:10:32) and we'll see her so there's anybody (00:10:34) here they had a really happy childhood (00:10:36) they want to find that just how (00:10:37) miserable it really was (00:10:39) feel free to volunteer it's always a (00:10:43) learning experience so anyway the that's (00:10:45) the small T of the needs not being met (00:10:47) yeah I think that's such a powerful (00:10:49) distinction because oftentimes we're not (00:10:51) aware of what we didn't get like the (00:10:53) nutrients we didn't get as a kid but (00:10:55) that ultimately contributes to the (00:10:57) Constitution that we develop (00:10:59) you give this interesting distinction (00:11:01) because also like looking from the wide (00:11:03) scope of things there's the trauma we (00:11:05) incur in our life big and little T and (00:11:06) then also how the toxic culture in which (00:11:10) we live especially in modern society (00:11:11) very much so undermines the needs and (00:11:14) you give this distinction in the book (00:11:15) which by the way is a behemoth of a book (00:11:18) but I loved every page of it five all (00:11:20) 500 of them yeah well believe me (00:11:23) when we first finished the manuscript it (00:11:25) was double this length (00:11:27) wow yeah it was it was I didn't know (00:11:29) what not to say you know (00:11:33) it's a lot to say there's a lot to say (00:11:35) about the ways in which culture has (00:11:37) become toxic and also the word toxic has (00:11:39) become used so so often and so giving (00:11:43) your definition of of that you know and (00:11:46) the assumptions that we make about our (00:11:48) human needs because the assumptions that (00:11:50) we make you've given the you know in the (00:11:52) book you shared that making assumptions (00:11:54) about human beings in a toxic culture is (00:11:57) like making an assumption about an (00:11:59) elephant in a zoo far divorce from its (00:12:01) natural Origins right and so if you (00:12:04) could just explain what are our actual (00:12:06) true human needs and how does culture (00:12:08) undermine them (00:12:09) Jews so the (00:12:11) there's a (00:12:13) podcaster and and writer called Tom (00:12:16) Hartmann his name is and uh in one of (00:12:19) his books he said that a culture can be (00:12:21) nurturing or toxic (00:12:23) the analogy actually for me as a (00:12:25) physician comes from laboratory science (00:12:28) if you're in a laboratory you're growing (00:12:31) organisms microorganisms when you put (00:12:33) them in a dish called a petri dish (00:12:36) and you give them a certain broth (00:12:38) and your intention is to have these (00:12:41) organisms proliferate and grow properly (00:12:44) and if they do then it's a nurturing (00:12:46) culture (00:12:47) but if large numbers of them got sick or (00:12:49) died off or didn't reproduce or were (00:12:51) dysfunctional you'd say it's a toxic (00:12:54) culture (00:12:55) so the (00:12:57) how to judge whether a culture is toxic (00:13:00) or nutritious or nourishing is how are (00:13:03) they organisms in that culture thriving (00:13:07) or are they suffering (00:13:10) now if you look at this society and I (00:13:12) could go through the statistics (00:13:14) there's a lot of suffering (00:13:16) people I'm solved as wealth but I don't (00:13:20) know if I have to prove it to you (00:13:22) there's a lot of suffering there's a lot (00:13:24) of pain there's a lot of people hurting (00:13:26) each other people hurting themselves (00:13:28) people being hurt (00:13:32) people achieving all the successes (00:13:35) that the society has to offer and being (00:13:38) miserable (00:13:39) despite the successes or perhaps because (00:13:42) of the successes (00:13:45) so (00:13:47) that's what makes it toxic for me now if (00:13:51) a culture meets the needs of the (00:13:52) organisms in other words (00:13:54) then it's a nutritious inertian culture (00:13:56) if it doesn't it's a toxic one (00:13:59) human beings have certain needs (00:14:01) which are very different than the (00:14:04) assumptions (00:14:05) that are basic to corporate capitalism (00:14:09) because the assumption (00:14:12) in this system is that people are (00:14:13) selfish (00:14:14) that the greedy (00:14:16) that they're aggressive that the (00:14:18) competitive (00:14:20) um (00:14:22) and that they're (00:14:25) individualistically against (00:14:27) their fellow human beings and that's all (00:14:29) and that's how you'll succeed (00:14:32) well (00:14:34) human beings actually if you look at (00:14:35) from a point of human needs (00:14:38) it's very different (00:14:39) how did we evolve as creatures we (00:14:41) evolved in for millions of years (00:14:45) and hundreds of thousands of years (00:14:48) and even on species Homo sapiens sapien (00:14:51) we've been on the earth for (00:14:52) 200 000 years (00:14:55) for (00:14:58) 995 of that time we lived in small band (00:15:02) hunter-gatherer groups we were together (00:15:04) with our families the whole day with the (00:15:07) Chris spent the whole time around the (00:15:08) parents (00:15:09) when people had to cooperate in order to (00:15:11) survive (00:15:13) where wealth wasn't defined by what you (00:15:15) achieved by by what you gave away (00:15:19) but collaboration was necessary and this (00:15:23) this was not the case until the blink of (00:15:26) an arrow (00:15:27) so in other words our needs are and our (00:15:30) our needs as defined by Evolution are (00:15:33) for community (00:15:34) therefore contact therefore (00:15:36) collaboration (00:15:38) therefore connection which translates (00:15:40) into (00:15:40) [Music] (00:15:43) giving and receiving love (00:15:45) and giving and receiving care (00:15:49) um (00:15:50) children are born with certain essential (00:15:52) needs I've mentioned some of them (00:15:54) they need to belong in an attachment (00:15:57) relationship with they feel absolutely (00:15:58) safe and secure inside that relationship (00:16:01) they have to be free from having to work (00:16:04) which means the child shouldn't have to (00:16:05) work to make their relationship work (00:16:08) they shouldn't have to be good pretty (00:16:09) compliant (00:16:12) smart (00:16:14) they should just be (00:16:16) no work to be accepted that's their (00:16:20) second need rest from having to work to (00:16:23) make the relationship work (00:16:26) the third essentially either the child (00:16:29) is to be able to experience all their (00:16:31) emotions all their emotions (00:16:33) which means (00:16:35) all the emotions that our brains are (00:16:38) wired with (00:16:39) by Evolution which include (00:16:42) connection and love (00:16:44) playfulness curiosity (00:16:48) but they also include rage anger (00:16:51) and grief (00:16:53) and fear (00:16:54) and children should have the freedom to (00:16:57) experience all that without being told (00:16:59) that such and such an emotion is not (00:17:01) acceptable and we have the need for free (00:17:04) spontaneous play (00:17:06) out in nature that's a human need that (00:17:09) we share with all other mammals (00:17:11) and play is much more important for (00:17:13) brain development than School is (00:17:16) actually I don't mean play with this by (00:17:18) the way (00:17:19) I mean spontaneous creative play okay (00:17:22) those are the needs of children (00:17:25) as adults we have the need for (00:17:26) connection and belonging (00:17:29) for meaning (00:17:30) and for purpose (00:17:33) um in our lives these are needs (00:17:37) you deprived people of those knees (00:17:39) they're going to suffer (00:17:42) this overdose crisis United States last (00:17:45) year over 100 000 people died of (00:17:47) overdoses in the US (00:17:48) do you know that more people died in one (00:17:50) year of overdoses than American soldiers (00:17:53) who died in the Vietnam Afghan and Iraq (00:17:56) Wars put together (00:18:00) why did these people die (00:18:02) if you actually look at they've been (00:18:04) called deaths of despair (00:18:08) a lot of them were people that where (00:18:11) they used to be industry there used to (00:18:13) be a sense of community meaningful (00:18:16) connection meaningful activity (00:18:18) door globalized corporate capitalism all (00:18:21) I got hollowed out people lost their (00:18:23) sense of community the lens of belonging (00:18:25) and their sense of meaning and purpose (00:18:28) one of the responses to that is (00:18:31) addiction (00:18:32) so that's how important these needs are (00:18:35) and (00:18:36) this Society simply fails to (00:18:40) provide for those needs of children (00:18:43) or for adults (00:18:45) so it's toxic (00:18:48) that's (00:18:50) oh that's not too too heavy duty for you (00:18:52) but I just (00:18:54) that's my diagnosis (00:18:58) that's uh I mean in the book you give (00:19:00) the plethora of examples in which (00:19:02) culture is toxic and the various many (00:19:05) industries from food to social political (00:19:08) systems yeah to definitely the (00:19:10) pharmaceutical industry yeah and how the (00:19:13) toxicity the toxic tentacles have (00:19:15) reached into every corner of of culture (00:19:18) nowadays before we dive deeper into that (00:19:22) I feel like it's important to get (00:19:24) context as to where we're where is home (00:19:26) within ourselves what is a true self (00:19:28) without trauma what is a true self (00:19:30) without wounding and because that's the (00:19:32) place we're walking back towards and so (00:19:34) in your understanding what what is that (00:19:37) self like what are the qualities of that (00:19:39) Essence so we can have a reference point (00:19:40) of what we're walking towards (00:19:44) well (00:19:45) let me give you an example (00:19:48) well actually I'll give you two examples (00:19:50) um one is I was (00:19:53) I I was on The Joe Rogan podcast back in (00:19:56) September it's the first time I met the (00:19:58) guy (00:19:59) and um he was telling me that he (00:20:03) and you probably know this he was a (00:20:05) martial arts (00:20:06) Champion I think in Taekwondo perhaps (00:20:10) very aggressive losing (00:20:13) was Anna Therma to him he just couldn't (00:20:15) stand the idea of losing (00:20:18) he was aggressive (00:20:20) he was rough in his personal life (00:20:24) and whatever you think of him now and is (00:20:28) positions and political opinions (00:20:31) he's gone through quite a transformation (00:20:35) and he's much more open about his (00:20:37) emotions (00:20:39) much more willing to be vulnerable (00:20:43) not to be hostile (00:20:45) and I just asked him (00:20:47) in which state do you feel more like (00:20:49) yourself (00:20:51) and he says in this one (00:20:54) but what does that tell me (00:20:58) or I can ask you (00:20:59) any of you (00:21:03) you've if you're like me you've done (00:21:05) plenty of things that are selfish and (00:21:08) manipulative and (00:21:10) aggressive perhaps (00:21:12) and you've also perhaps been at times (00:21:15) kind and generous and open-hearted (00:21:18) now if you ask yourself (00:21:20) when do you feel more ease inside (00:21:22) yourself (00:21:24) when is your whole nervous system and (00:21:26) all your viscera and your body more at (00:21:30) home with itself (00:21:32) or we're as opposed to tense and and and (00:21:35) and (00:21:36) um on edge (00:21:38) is it when you've done something selfish (00:21:40) and self-serving and greedy and grasping (00:21:42) and mean (00:21:45) or is it when you've done something (00:21:46) generous and and giving and open-hearted (00:21:50) well most people will say (00:21:55) I feel more myself and more at ease when (00:21:58) I'm I'm open that tells you what the (00:22:00) true nature is so it's not a theoretical (00:22:02) question (00:22:03) just look at your own experience (00:22:06) when do you feel more like yourself and (00:22:09) that there's your answer yeah so you (00:22:12) know (00:22:13) all the spiritual teachers tell us from (00:22:15) ancient Hindu times you know the Buddha (00:22:18) even before the Buddha the rishis you (00:22:20) know the the the true self you know the (00:22:23) the one that's aware and conscious and (00:22:25) open-hearted and loving and so on and (00:22:27) all the spiritual teachings will tell (00:22:29) you that (00:22:30) but you don't have to go to the special (00:22:32) teachings just look at your own (00:22:33) experience and by the way I'm sorry why (00:22:35) are you even here (00:22:37) why are you here why you don't want to (00:22:40) hear this stuff (00:22:41) I mean not that you shouldn't but why do (00:22:44) you want to hear this stuff or who is it (00:22:47) in you that wants to hear it (00:22:49) or who is it in you that wants to (00:22:50) contribute (00:22:52) well there's your true self (00:22:57) when we come into the world first like (00:22:59) we just are we just are who we are right (00:23:02) and then we pick up all this wounding (00:23:03) and Trauma (00:23:05) and on the process of developing as a (00:23:07) child we oftentimes forsake our true (00:23:09) selves in the pursuit of safety and our (00:23:12) perceived safety at the time in (00:23:14) unconscious ways that we can't you know (00:23:15) rationalize well that's when the child (00:23:16) has to work for safety right if the (00:23:19) safety is not there then the child has (00:23:21) to create it and that's that's where (00:23:24) you're heading I think yeah so like I (00:23:25) would just love for you to dive into the (00:23:27) process of how we kind of unconsciously (00:23:29) abandon our true selves in the pursuit (00:23:31) of safety as a child because that I (00:23:32) think really informs us to see how we (00:23:35) might still be doing it but then also (00:23:37) why we've gotten to the place we have (00:23:39) individually and collectively yeah (00:23:42) so (00:23:43) in the book there's a chapter called (00:23:46) authenticity versus attachment (00:23:49) so attachment is just a need to belong (00:23:52) I've talked about that the child needs (00:23:54) to belong to caregivers who will look (00:23:57) after them (00:23:58) that's clearly (00:24:02) um mammals or creatures of attachment (00:24:04) that dog is a creature of attachment (00:24:06) that dog wants to belong that dog is (00:24:09) definitely a creature of attachment (00:24:12) and and uh even Birds you know little (00:24:16) birds they don't (00:24:18) survive without somebody looking after (00:24:20) them (00:24:21) so attachment is just a drive that's (00:24:23) instinctively and genetically programmed (00:24:26) into us we have to connect we have to (00:24:28) belong (00:24:29) and so attachment is a drive that (00:24:32) pulls two bodies together (00:24:34) for the sake of taking care of or for (00:24:37) the sake of being taken care of (00:24:41) not negotiable (00:24:44) but we have another need which is what I (00:24:46) call authenticity and I'll tell the self (00:24:49) at home in self automobile (00:24:53) s need to be ourselves no (00:24:56) on the most basic level (00:24:58) why do we even need to be ourselves (00:25:01) what I mean by that is is we have to be (00:25:03) connected to our bodies and our emotions (00:25:05) and to be able to (00:25:08) heed their guidance (00:25:10) why well we evolved author in nature (00:25:15) just how long do you survive out there (00:25:16) in nature how long does any creature (00:25:18) survive in nature if they're not (00:25:20) connected to their gut feelings (00:25:24) not very long (00:25:26) so we have this need for authenticity (00:25:27) being connected to ourselves (00:25:29) being able to (00:25:31) feed the our inner GPS as it were (00:25:35) and we have this lead to attach (00:25:37) authenticity and attachment (00:25:40) by the way let's just do a little test (00:25:42) that I do with (00:25:44) audiences so just if you've had the (00:25:47) following experience that at some point (00:25:50) you had a strong gut feeling about (00:25:52) something and you ignored it and you (00:25:54) felt sorry afterwards just raise your (00:25:56) hand okay (00:25:57) everybody right (00:26:00) you know the story you just told (00:26:02) they told the story of your childhood (00:26:05) have you ever met a one day old baby (00:26:07) that ignores their gut feelings (00:26:09) never (00:26:11) something happened (00:26:13) and what happened is this (00:26:16) here you've got feelings you have your (00:26:17) authentic emotions (00:26:20) but at some point you got the message (00:26:22) uh-uh (00:26:23) if you want to belong you better give (00:26:25) that up (00:26:27) it's that simple now how does that work (00:26:30) well to mention another famous Canadian (00:26:32) much more famous than I am uh Jordan (00:26:35) Peterson okay (00:26:36) so (00:26:38) Jordan Peterson writes a book called 12 (00:26:40) rules for life (00:26:41) in which South millions of copies are in (00:26:44) the world (00:26:45) and he advises that an angry child (00:26:48) should be made to sit by themselves (00:26:51) until quote they come back to normal (00:26:54) okay (00:26:56) so you got this angry two-year-old (00:26:58) why is the two-year-old angry (00:27:00) because you frustrated him (00:27:03) and if you're good parent you're going (00:27:04) to frustrate your two-year-old (00:27:06) and I don't mean deliberately I just (00:27:08) mean when I want to cook it before (00:27:09) dinner you're not going to give them a (00:27:11) cookie you're gonna say no no cookie (00:27:13) before dinner (00:27:15) well if he's a healthy two-year-old (00:27:18) they're gonna throw a tantrum because (00:27:20) they're frustrated (00:27:22) [Music] (00:27:25) but then you read that Jordan Peterson's (00:27:27) book (00:27:28) and he says an angry child should be (00:27:30) made to sit by themselves did they come (00:27:32) back to normal (00:27:34) it's not normal (00:27:36) for a kid to be angry (00:27:38) so the kid gets the message (00:27:41) if I'm going to experience my genuine (00:27:43) self I'm going to lose my attachment (00:27:48) come on now guess what's going what the (00:27:50) kids gonna give up the attachment or the (00:27:53) authenticity (00:27:55) but only a hundred percent of the time (00:27:59) it's the authenticity because without (00:28:01) the attachment they can't live (00:28:04) but then authenticity becomes a threat (00:28:07) so the kid becomes afraid of their true (00:28:09) selves (00:28:10) because if I'm being myself they won't (00:28:11) like me (00:28:13) they'll reject me they'll even hurt me (00:28:16) I can give you a worse example a kid (00:28:18) who's being abused (00:28:21) the natural reaction is to want to run (00:28:23) away or to fight back (00:28:25) can they afford to what would happen if (00:28:28) they did (00:28:29) so they have to push it down they have (00:28:32) to literally have to separate from (00:28:34) themselves (00:28:35) in order to survive so this is where we (00:28:37) and then of course the culture rewards (00:28:41) you or you're such a good kid (00:28:43) you're always compliant you're always so (00:28:46) nice you're always so pleasant come here (00:28:48) let me Pat you on the head (00:28:51) what a pretty little girl always pretty (00:28:53) you know (00:28:55) and there was We Praise kids for (00:28:57) pleasing us (00:29:00) so the reward is the attachment (00:29:04) and we don't care about the child's (00:29:06) inner experience (00:29:07) so then we give ourselves up just in (00:29:09) order to be accepted so it's that simple (00:29:11) and by the show of hands you can see how (00:29:14) widespread it is (00:29:16) it's just endemic (00:29:18) and then you grow up and you're 30 or 40 (00:29:20) in your 50s saying who the hell am I (00:29:22) anyway (00:29:22) and whose life am I living (00:29:25) and why am I behaving in these ways (00:29:30) yeah that that process of Excavating and (00:29:33) discovering why we are the way we are (00:29:35) why our neuroses are present what our (00:29:38) behavior is is um is fascinating and I (00:29:41) want to dive a little bit deeper here (00:29:41) because in the book you share this story (00:29:43) of this time where something happened (00:29:45) between you and your wife yeah and you (00:29:48) ended up giving her the silent treatment (00:29:49) yeah and uh the it comes back to this (00:29:54) point where you said even though you (00:29:56) know you could say that you giving her (00:29:58) the silent treatment was a reenactment I (00:30:00) guess from behavior of trauma that you (00:30:02) incured you know being born during World (00:30:03) War II yeah and there comes a point when (00:30:06) the story or saying Hitler made me do it (00:30:08) won't won't cut it anymore and so the (00:30:11) question is for whatever reason whatever (00:30:14) reason our neuroses are here they're (00:30:16) here how do you how do you suggest (00:30:18) others take conscious responsibility (00:30:21) for unconscious Behavior (00:30:23) how can you accurately take conscious (00:30:26) responsibility for something that you're (00:30:27) unaware of right (00:30:29) well (00:30:31) I've had plenty of that (00:30:33) um (00:30:34) and when you're in caught up in the (00:30:39) coils of unconscious Behavior you don't (00:30:42) know that (00:30:43) you're just behaving (00:30:45) you may even think you know why you're (00:30:47) behaving that way (00:30:49) you know but you don't really in my (00:30:51) marriage my my default setting is (00:30:53) withdrawal (00:30:55) I'm out of here you know have you made (00:30:58) it 53 years (00:31:01) but when something goes wrong I'm still (00:31:03) thinking am I in the right marriage you (00:31:05) know (00:31:07) you guys should get out of here you know (00:31:09) that that that's my default setting and (00:31:11) there's reason for that in my early (00:31:13) programming (00:31:16) when you're caught up in it you don't (00:31:18) know it (00:31:19) but you sure get the impact (00:31:22) at a certain point you have to start (00:31:24) asking yourself (00:31:25) why am I being not why am I behaving (00:31:27) this way (00:31:29) that'll never yield any answers (00:31:31) because why am I behaving this way is (00:31:33) not a question it's an accusation (00:31:38) but if you say well hmm why am I (00:31:40) behaving this way (00:31:44) oh well obviously there's something I'm (00:31:45) not aware of so what I'm saying here (00:31:47) Andre is that that Quest or that process (00:31:51) of inquiry (00:31:54) of of doing that archeology of the Mind (00:31:58) of what's actually driving me (00:32:01) it usually starts because there's some (00:32:03) impacts that are keep recurring that (00:32:06) just aren't working very well (00:32:08) you know so that can show up in a form (00:32:10) of relationship problems (00:32:13) they often do (00:32:15) and you know you can (00:32:20) keep doing what you're doing and get (00:32:23) into (00:32:24) 300 different relationships and still (00:32:26) wonder huh why does this keep happening (00:32:28) to me you know we can start or you can (00:32:30) start asking yourself maybe I'm doing (00:32:32) something here (00:32:34) just maybe you know (00:32:37) um (00:32:38) so usually it begins with some suffering (00:32:42) physical disease (00:32:45) autoimmune illness malignancy (00:32:48) a depression anxiety addiction (00:32:51) recurrent relationship issues (00:32:54) job failures (00:32:57) at a certain point (00:32:59) something twigs (00:33:02) that maybe I can take some (00:33:04) responsibility here (00:33:05) not blame but responsibility so that's (00:33:08) where it begins so first you don't know (00:33:10) Andre (00:33:11) you just see the impact (00:33:13) but then the more you do the work the (00:33:15) more you actually start became aware of (00:33:17) the pattern as it arises (00:33:20) so you can actually start noticing you (00:33:22) know you're a meditator and (00:33:25) um one of the things people do in (00:33:27) meditate I don't know what type you do (00:33:28) but (00:33:29) one of the things people do in some (00:33:30) meditation is just to be aware of their (00:33:32) minds (00:33:33) of all the thoughts and emotions (00:33:36) impulses that arise but to to observe it (00:33:39) impartially (00:33:41) so at certain point you have to start (00:33:42) looking at yourself and usually we (00:33:45) are dragged clicking and screaming by (00:33:47) our own suffering into that into the (00:33:50) inquiry (00:33:52) yeah and that I love that invitation (00:33:54) that you gave of (00:33:56) when you become aware oftentimes because (00:33:59) of our conditioning we want to become (00:34:01) the prosecutor of our own experience (00:34:03) instead of just becoming curious and (00:34:05) saying why is that there and like you (00:34:06) spoke to bring that self-compassion to (00:34:08) yourself and that like it's okay and you (00:34:10) can hold yourself in a way that maybe (00:34:13) your parents or you know your friends (00:34:15) never did and in that place we can then (00:34:18) take that conscious responsibility of (00:34:21) our experience and bring what's as young (00:34:23) say it says like make the unconscious (00:34:25) conscious (00:34:27) yeah uh Larry was sitting right there (00:34:30) and and I and any therapist worth their (00:34:32) salt (00:34:33) um (00:34:34) will um not work on behaviors or (00:34:38) dysfunctional patterns but on the (00:34:41) internal dynamics that drive them (00:34:44) number one and number two (00:34:48) develop help the person develop the (00:34:50) inner safety (00:34:52) where they can examine themselves (00:34:53) without beating themselves up (00:34:57) and so from that point of view there's (00:34:58) no part of us the most hateful part the (00:35:01) most the parts most filled with hatred (00:35:04) the parts that are addicted the parts (00:35:07) that are (00:35:09) even full of self-loathing (00:35:13) they all deserve compassion (00:35:15) they all deserve to be held and (00:35:17) understood (00:35:19) and (00:35:20) they all came along for a reason even (00:35:22) that self-loathing came along for a (00:35:24) reason and even that self-loathing part (00:35:26) has a function (00:35:30) it didn't go it's not an enemy (00:35:32) I could go into what that function is (00:35:34) but this voice that keeps beating you up (00:35:37) I'm such a bad person it's actually came (00:35:40) along to help you in the first place (00:35:43) yeah how I'd be curious (00:35:46) um (00:35:47) well um (00:35:50) let's say a child is not getting their (00:35:52) needs met (00:35:54) or Worse they're getting hurt (00:35:58) now the child can make two unconscious (00:35:59) assumptions (00:36:02) only two (00:36:04) one is (00:36:06) this is a terrible world (00:36:08) I'm all alone (00:36:10) everyone's against me (00:36:13) my parents don't know how to love me or (00:36:16) they're incompetent (00:36:18) we're talking about two three (00:36:19) four-year-old child (00:36:22) five-year-old child well the child can (00:36:24) assume (00:36:26) there's something wrong with me (00:36:28) it's all my fault (00:36:30) and if I work hard enough maybe I can (00:36:31) fix it (00:36:33) now which is the safer assumption for (00:36:35) that which is the one they can live with (00:36:39) the one where they forsake their (00:36:41) authenticity that he spoke to earlier (00:36:43) well the one that says that maybe it's (00:36:46) my fault and I can do something about it (00:36:47) if I work hard enough maybe I can make (00:36:50) myself loved (00:36:51) maybe I can correct it (00:36:53) if I keep beating myself up hard enough (00:36:56) maybe I'll maybe I can make myself okay (00:37:00) to assume that the world is that (00:37:01) dangerous is just unbearable for the (00:37:03) child (00:37:04) so even that self-loathing comes along (00:37:06) as a (00:37:09) it's also (00:37:10) turning the anger towards the (00:37:13) adults against yourself which is a lot (00:37:15) safer (00:37:17) it's not very safe to be angry with your (00:37:18) parents all the time when you're two (00:37:20) years old (00:37:21) you know (00:37:23) I'm curious (00:37:25) when that happens and there's that (00:37:27) self-loathing or anger that turns (00:37:29) inwards how do you advise people to move (00:37:32) through that how can they hold (00:37:33) themselves how can they (00:37:35) how can they work with that (00:37:38) so it doesn't rule them (00:37:40) there's a number of ways to work with it (00:37:43) um one is to talk to that part (00:37:45) and say what are you trying to do not (00:37:48) what are you trying to do but (00:37:49) what are you trying to do (00:37:52) and that part will usually say I'm just (00:37:54) trying to make sure that he behaves or (00:37:56) she behaves or they behave so that they (00:37:58) will be accepted by their environment (00:38:04) basically you make friends with that (00:38:06) part (00:38:08) how I work with it sometimes that's one (00:38:10) way I work with it sometimes another way (00:38:12) I work with this sometimes is just feel (00:38:14) that part feel that part (00:38:16) that that loathing (00:38:18) are you familiar with that all have you (00:38:19) ever read that since is it just an idea (00:38:22) or does it have a bodily manifestation a (00:38:24) lot of the manifestation yeah then I'll (00:38:27) ask you to (00:38:28) can is it okay if we just allow it to be (00:38:30) here for now yeah (00:38:32) can you and I just be with it (00:38:35) so you actually learned to hold it (00:38:37) rather than just to run away with it (00:38:38) yeah from it you know so there's a ways (00:38:40) of working yeah to invite it to the (00:38:42) dinner table like I invite them to the (00:38:44) table Yeah invite them to be there all (00:38:46) the emotions yeah (00:38:48) so good so good how um (00:38:52) in this process of accuring these you (00:38:55) know these traumatic experiences in our (00:38:57) life what is the differentiating factor (00:38:59) you said it's not what happens to us but (00:39:00) what happens within us what is the (00:39:02) difference if like two siblings are (00:39:04) raised in the same household and they're (00:39:06) not they're not okay so there you go you (00:39:09) know but like one is crippled by the (00:39:11) experience in which they're raised the (00:39:13) other one you know thrives so right so (00:39:15) first of all notes which children have (00:39:17) the same parents (00:39:18) and no two children have the same family (00:39:21) and no two children had the same set of (00:39:23) experiences (00:39:24) and I've seen this even in identical (00:39:26) twins (00:39:28) brought up by their birth mother (00:39:31) they did not have the same mother (00:39:34) I delivered these kids myself (00:39:36) well the mother did but I was there you (00:39:38) know uh (00:39:41) one of them came out five minutes (00:39:42) earlier (00:39:44) and was a pound or two bigger (00:39:48) the mother always said the sense of kind (00:39:50) of guilt and anxiety about the second (00:39:52) one but somehow that the second Twin (00:39:55) kind of laughed out in uterus (00:39:57) was muscle the side by the bigger one (00:39:59) so she always had more concern and more (00:40:02) worry in her voice and in her look when (00:40:04) when she talked to or about that kid (00:40:07) with the bigger one the first one she (00:40:09) was much more confident (00:40:12) and robust they didn't have the same (00:40:14) mother (00:40:16) and um (00:40:19) so no two children one of them is no an (00:40:23) average family (00:40:24) but without identical twins (00:40:27) um one kid was born earlier later the (00:40:31) parents ended the different relationship (00:40:32) with each other (00:40:34) there might be more or less stress the (00:40:35) relationship might be better or worse (00:40:37) the economic situation might be better (00:40:39) or worse (00:40:40) each child triggers something different (00:40:42) than the parent not because the parent (00:40:44) necessarily wants to (00:40:46) favor one child over the other just (00:40:48) because we they bring up different (00:40:50) aspects of ourselves (00:40:53) um (00:40:54) so so there's all kinds of reasons why (00:40:56) no two children have the same (00:40:57) experiences (00:40:59) so there's no comparing experiences so (00:41:02) why is (00:41:04) somebody (00:41:07) come up come along as looking more (00:41:09) dysfunctional than the other one (00:41:12) all kinds of reasons and even in a (00:41:14) family where some children are abused (00:41:16) not necessarily our children are abused (00:41:19) the perpetrator always knows (00:41:22) who's vulnerable and who isn't (00:41:26) so then families where there's abuse (00:41:28) there's sometimes tremendous breakdown (00:41:30) amongst the adult children (00:41:32) who simply cannot believe what the other (00:41:35) is saying about the family (00:41:38) they had a totally different experience (00:41:41) and finally temperament (00:41:46) who's a British psychiatrist he said (00:41:48) that even if a mother could be the same (00:41:50) mother to out eight of her children to (00:41:53) all eight of her children which she (00:41:54) couldn't be (00:41:56) but even if she could be they'd still (00:41:58) have eight different mothers because (00:41:59) they're born with different temperaments (00:42:01) so they experience the mother (00:42:03) if you're more sensitive you're going to (00:42:04) have a different set of experiences (00:42:07) so there's no similarity of experience (00:42:09) yeah (00:42:10) now to present day like as adults how (00:42:14) important is it that we actually try to (00:42:16) pinpoint what the experience was that (00:42:18) led to something or is it just important (00:42:20) to feel what is what's present and not (00:42:22) necessarily know the story of how it (00:42:24) happened well if you go back to that (00:42:26) point of view about trauma that it's (00:42:27) trauma is not what happened to you what (00:42:29) happened inside you (00:42:31) then it's what's happening inside you (00:42:32) know that's what matters so what (00:42:34) happened it doesn't matter so much it's (00:42:37) what are you carrying now I don't have a (00:42:39) hell of a difficult time (00:42:41) figuring out what happened to somebody (00:42:43) after I spent 10 minutes in conversation (00:42:46) because it shows up in how they talk (00:42:48) about themselves (00:42:50) and then narrative and how they hold (00:42:52) their bodies (00:42:53) the choice of words they use the tone of (00:42:55) voice they speak the facial expression (00:42:58) um so it's usually not that difficult to (00:43:00) trace it (00:43:01) it's helpful to know (00:43:05) uh but it's not 100 crucial to know be (00:43:09) exactly what happened for it yeah it's (00:43:12) what or am I carrying now (00:43:16) so like I said a little too early young (00:43:18) saying that until you make the (00:43:19) unconscious conscious it will rule you (00:43:22) and you will call it fate yeah when (00:43:24) we're at this point now where we can (00:43:26) take responsibility for whatever is (00:43:28) going on in our lives whatever neuroses (00:43:30) that we have whatever unconscious (00:43:32) Behavior behavior that we want to slide (00:43:33) under the rug but people kept keep (00:43:35) reflecting back to us as you know that (00:43:37) person is always that kind of way that's (00:43:39) just how they are it's not who they are (00:43:42) it's the you know it's what they've (00:43:43) accumulated that's gotten them to that (00:43:45) point so what is the most effective way (00:43:47) you found to make the unconscious (00:43:49) conscious in that process like are there (00:43:51) certain modalities (00:43:52) on the path to healing and wholeness (00:43:54) what has actually led to True (00:43:57) transformation and what you've seen (00:44:01) this may be the toughest question you've (00:44:03) asked me so far (00:44:05) um (00:44:05) because I don't think there's any one (00:44:07) simple answer (00:44:12) it's not that difficult to make the (00:44:13) conscious conscious (00:44:15) you know Saint Paul said at one point (00:44:17) that (00:44:19) when you shine the light into the (00:44:21) darkness the darkness becomes light (00:44:22) itself (00:44:24) Darkness isn't darkness is not an entity (00:44:27) and there's no such thing as Darkness (00:44:29) actually (00:44:30) there's such a thing as light (00:44:33) there's light waves (00:44:36) but there's no Darkness waves (00:44:38) darkness is just the absence of light (00:44:41) so once you shine light on something (00:44:45) it becomes clear (00:44:47) so there's a whole lot of ways of (00:44:48) shining like (00:44:50) on on the unconscious (00:44:52) certainly meditation is one of them (00:44:54) although I think by itself it's got (00:44:57) limitations (00:44:59) um (00:45:00) body work because our bodies reflect our (00:45:03) beliefs about ourselves various forms of (00:45:06) psychotherapy (00:45:08) sometimes (00:45:10) somebody will say a word to me and I (00:45:12) just (00:45:14) um (00:45:15) reflect the let me give an example (00:45:19) um I was talking to somebody the other (00:45:21) day was telling me that they had this (00:45:25) happy childhood and she said (00:45:28) and all my my siblings said my my father (00:45:32) was really harsh (00:45:33) but I didn't I knew how to charm him (00:45:37) no (00:45:39) just let me give you a (00:45:41) what do you make of that Charming who (00:45:43) did he charm there's snake Charmers (00:45:45) right (00:45:47) what does it mean to charm a snake (00:45:50) it makes them is to make them not (00:45:52) dangerous (00:45:54) make them behave (00:45:56) it's a it's a way of taming Danger (00:45:59) and we become Charming (00:46:02) my friend Gore Newfield who's a (00:46:04) brilliant child psychologist (00:46:06) there's certain ways that children will (00:46:09) adapt so if you're not (00:46:12) loved for who you are (00:46:15) then you'll become Charming (00:46:18) and you'll tame the danger of not being (00:46:20) loved by becoming Charming this person (00:46:22) was telling me their child that they (00:46:23) didn't realize it but as soon as I (00:46:26) reflected it back to them (00:46:27) they got up (00:46:29) so sometimes all it takes is take a word (00:46:32) that is somebody utters (00:46:33) look at the meaning of it (00:46:36) oh yeah (00:46:37) I didn't I wasn't loved for who I was I (00:46:40) had to try my father (00:46:42) into loving me (00:46:45) yeah like all those emotions that (00:46:48) culturally we would deem positive such (00:46:50) as being Charming or charismatic yeah (00:46:52) oftentimes are actually a behavioral (00:46:55) compensation due to a trauma but because (00:46:57) we think it's admirable or altruistic (00:47:00) it's accepted and something that we (00:47:02) don't necessarily have to work with so (00:47:05) can you just speak to how even though (00:47:06) and especially a lot of times in the (00:47:08) entertainment industry in the music (00:47:09) industry people that are big performers (00:47:11) these qualities are admired and put on a (00:47:14) pedestal yeah but underneath that and (00:47:17) we've seen it many times with Comedians (00:47:19) and actors like Robin Williams where (00:47:21) there is this Persona that is accepted (00:47:24) but underneath there is so much deep (00:47:26) grief and sadness well I talk about (00:47:29) Williams in the book and he was a (00:47:31) Salient except by the way I don't I (00:47:33) don't know any comedians that wasn't (00:47:34) traumatized I mean I think it's just (00:47:37) part of the (00:47:38) you know Gilda Radner I wrote about (00:47:40) Gilda Radner I mean some of you are too (00:47:42) young to remember her but she was a big (00:47:44) star on Saturday Night Live when it (00:47:46) first began she died of ovarian cancer (00:47:50) and um incidentally there was a study (00:47:53) that I mentioned in the book came out of (00:47:55) Harvard three years ago women with (00:47:57) severe PTSD have doubled the risk of (00:48:00) ovarian cancer (00:48:02) and if that was the only study ever done (00:48:05) that should have sent every doctor in (00:48:07) North America trying to figure out (00:48:09) what's the connection between mind and (00:48:10) body (00:48:13) and the milder the symptoms of PTSD the (00:48:16) less the risk of ovarian cancer The (00:48:18) Guild of that Radner died of ovarian (00:48:20) cancer (00:48:21) and (00:48:22) she was a typical (00:48:24) ovarian cancer (00:48:27) ity (00:48:29) this is a this is what she took on as a (00:48:31) child (00:48:32) she suppressed her own needs always to (00:48:34) please others (00:48:36) and (00:48:38) she began to make jokes in order to (00:48:41) bring feel closer to her mother the only (00:48:43) way she could feel close to her mom (00:48:45) was to make her laugh (00:48:50) and same with Robin Williams (00:48:53) he began to make jokes in order to be (00:48:56) closer to her to her and he said at some (00:48:58) point isn't that a weird thing to to try (00:49:01) and make your mother laugh (00:49:03) no it's not (00:49:05) it's not weird at all (00:49:07) not not when that's if that's the only (00:49:09) way you can get close to her it's (00:49:11) absolutely the brilliant way (00:49:14) and these little and these Incredible (00:49:16) characters that he made up with his (00:49:18) infinite talent for improvisation (00:49:22) you know who they were they were the (00:49:24) only friends he had as a kid (00:49:27) that's why he made them up (00:49:30) so um I forget the question except to (00:49:32) say that (00:49:34) these talents that oh yeah and then (00:49:36) everybody celebrates them (00:49:38) for the incredible Talent (00:49:40) and their charisma (00:49:42) and not realizing that what they're (00:49:43) celebrating is the the defenses of a (00:49:46) helpless child in the hands of an (00:49:48) incredible Talent (00:49:52) um (00:49:53) let me give you a political example I (00:49:56) if you read the book (00:49:58) you'll know this but if you haven't you (00:50:00) won't (00:50:01) what if I told you about um (00:50:04) a four-year-old girl (00:50:05) who's being bullied by neighborhood kids (00:50:10) and she runs into her house (00:50:12) to seek protection from her mother (00:50:15) and the mother says there is no room for (00:50:18) cards in his house (00:50:20) now you get out and deal with it (00:50:22) what would you think of that (00:50:26) would that be parenting that you'd like (00:50:28) to celebrate or would you think (00:50:30) that's not what the kid needs (00:50:34) this is Hillary Clinton (00:50:36) there's this this is what's amazing (00:50:38) about this story not that it happened (00:50:43) but that (00:50:45) this story was told (00:50:47) on public television (00:50:49) or I mean on National Television at the (00:50:53) Democratic Convention where she was (00:50:55) nominated for the presidency (00:50:57) and (00:50:59) there was a documentary about her life (00:51:01) spoken by God himself Morgan Freeman and (00:51:04) uh he uh they told the story as an (00:51:07) example of (00:51:09) resilience building strength character (00:51:11) building parenting (00:51:15) and the message was (00:51:16) and and this is this is why I became so (00:51:19) strong and you know (00:51:21) what's being described here is the (00:51:23) traumatization of a four-year-old (00:51:25) you tell a mother orangutan or a mother (00:51:27) bear to ignore the fear of their child (00:51:31) if that child is being threatened (00:51:33) the message is not that there's no room (00:51:35) for cards in this house because for your (00:51:37) kid asking for protection is not a (00:51:38) coward she's a four-year-old (00:51:40) it's a natural instinct (00:51:43) to run to your parent for protection any (00:51:45) animal will do that (00:51:47) the message is there's no room for your (00:51:50) vulnerability in this house (00:51:52) then you get there and suck it up (00:51:55) the outcome is (00:51:57) that doing the campaign (00:52:00) when the candidate now in her 60s gets (00:52:04) pneumonia (00:52:05) do you remember what she did with it (00:52:08) nothing (00:52:09) didn't anybody (00:52:11) until she collapsed with fever and (00:52:13) dehydration in the street (00:52:15) her Sig her security detail had to put (00:52:18) it into the car (00:52:20) because she learned to suck it up (00:52:23) and so when her husband was flandering (00:52:25) around (00:52:30) she she said it's my fault I didn't look (00:52:32) after him (00:52:33) typical trauma reaction (00:52:37) that a woman should go to that in this (00:52:39) culture is totally understandable (00:52:41) because that's what women go through (00:52:43) that they should be celebrated on public (00:52:45) television and nobody even comments on (00:52:47) it (00:52:49) that was being described here and (00:52:50) celebrated here is the traumatization of (00:52:53) a foiled that's incredible (00:52:56) that's how toxic this culture is (00:53:00) right and the danger that has become so (00:53:03) normalized like you spoke to that (00:53:05) process is not natural but it's become (00:53:07) normal it's become more than normal it's (00:53:09) become celebrated like you said and we (00:53:10) see (00:53:12) this positively neurotic behavior on (00:53:15) what people perceive and it's become so (00:53:18) accepted and widespread throughout (00:53:20) Western culture but Western culture (00:53:22) affects the culture everywhere the whole (00:53:25) world (00:53:26) so as we begin to transition into (00:53:29) Community Q a because I'm fortunate (00:53:32) enough to have you in the studio (00:53:32) tomorrow and we can keep diving deep but (00:53:34) I really am excited to see what's alive (00:53:37) within everybody here (00:53:39) um you know there's a such a a depth to (00:53:43) all the topics in in which you can go (00:53:45) here and uh and so let's just let's kick (00:53:48) it let's kick it off do we have some (00:53:49) mics kind of ready (00:53:51) um and the invitation here is to feel (00:53:54) free to bring it to any topic that is in (00:53:57) alignment with what we're speaking to (00:53:59) but then also maybe on the fringes (00:54:02) um and uh I'm sorry the only thing I (00:54:04) want to say before we go there is (00:54:06) I mean this is a heavy topic and (00:54:09) sometimes a heavy conversation there's (00:54:11) good news in all this (00:54:13) okay healing is available it's just in (00:54:16) it inside all of us (00:54:18) and I think that's both on two on the (00:54:21) difficult as it seems is certainly to an (00:54:23) individual level I've seen people (00:54:27) in the worst kind of (00:54:29) emotional and mental States (00:54:32) totally caught up in (00:54:34) life-threatening addictions transform (00:54:38) you've all seen that so I think it's (00:54:41) possible both on individual and (00:54:42) socialize so I don't want to leave this (00:54:44) conversation with sort of a we're doing (00:54:46) we're not doing that's the whole point (00:54:48) that we're not doomed (00:54:49) but in order not to Doom ourselves we (00:54:51) have to really look at that (00:54:53) Shadow side of ourselves yeah and it's (00:54:55) just a beautiful invitation and (00:54:57) awareness that you shed in the beginning (00:54:58) that's right it's not what happens to us (00:55:00) it's what happens within us and that's (00:55:02) good news because it's within us and we (00:55:05) are within us so that means that if (00:55:07) there's a thorn in our shoe yeah we can (00:55:10) take it out but first we have to hold it (00:55:12) before we can let it go and the various (00:55:14) different healing modalities that you (00:55:17) know you you espouse in the last chapter (00:55:19) of the book (00:55:20) um through through therapy through (00:55:22) psychedelics the various many different (00:55:24) modalities allow us to gain access and (00:55:26) hold the thorn within us and then we get (00:55:29) that begin that process to let it go so (00:55:31) is there anything before we do jump into (00:55:33) q a no I just wanted to make that point (00:55:35) yeah okay all right great I'm excited (00:55:38) all right who's the brave soul who wants (00:55:40) to jump first (00:55:41) you're right here and then we'll jump (00:55:43) back here (00:55:46) hello thank you for that that was (00:55:49) quite (00:55:51) wonderful I appreciate it (00:55:53) um I (00:55:55) there's a I'm someone that's exploring (00:55:57) the idea of being becoming a mother yeah (00:55:59) and it's petrifying because I don't want (00:56:01) to mess it up you will don't worry about (00:56:04) it that's the thing (00:56:05) oh that's part part of partly my (00:56:08) question is no matter how much healing (00:56:10) you have it seems like you're still (00:56:11) going to mess it up (00:56:12) and also what could it look like for a (00:56:15) society to be as healed as possible (00:56:19) and bring the next Generations into the (00:56:22) world so when you say you're petrified (00:56:26) you're very scared right here's how I'm (00:56:28) interpreting it (00:56:29) I could be wrong (00:56:31) you told me okay (00:56:35) you're not perfect of the future you're (00:56:36) petrified of the past (00:56:40) stuff happened to you (00:56:42) they shouldn't have or stuff didn't (00:56:44) happen that should have would that be (00:56:46) accurate yes yeah (00:56:49) and that's what you're afraid of (00:56:51) transmitting and perpetuating on your (00:56:53) children (00:56:53) right (00:56:55) yes (00:56:56) no I'm gonna (00:56:58) do you mind telling me how old you are (00:57:00) 34. how old were you when your mother (00:57:04) and father took on the job of getting to (00:57:07) know themselves (00:57:11) so as not to pass on their traumas to (00:57:13) you (00:57:14) how old were you how old were you when (00:57:16) they took that on in progress I think (00:57:20) they're starting to my dad no my mom (00:57:24) she went how old were you when they (00:57:26) started I'm 34 and I feel like they may (00:57:28) be starting now okay you're 34 and (00:57:30) they're starting now (00:57:31) what would it have meant for you (00:57:34) if your mother asked the same question (00:57:36) you just asked me before you were born (00:57:39) what would that have meant for you (00:57:42) not being scared to exist in my (00:57:44) household yeah (00:57:46) it would amend everything yeah (00:57:49) you've already given that gift to your (00:57:50) ongoing children (00:57:53) you got nothing to worry about (00:57:56) thank you you just keep doing it (00:58:01) okay (00:58:02) no (00:58:05) a therapist once said to me that if your (00:58:08) parents gave you this much and you (00:58:10) give your kids this much you've done a (00:58:11) great job (00:58:12) [Laughter] (00:58:15) but if you start asking those questions (00:58:17) now you're doing the work already you (00:58:20) read the right books and there's not (00:58:21) that many you need to read just a couple (00:58:23) the myth abnormal available now well (00:58:25) admit the normal yeah for sure because a (00:58:27) lot about that you know but I could name (00:58:29) some others by others some by myself (00:58:31) some by others you're going to be just (00:58:33) fine (00:58:35) and and (00:58:37) one of the things you're gonna have to (00:58:38) do is (00:58:39) to get to trust yourself and your own (00:58:41) got feelings and not taking the message (00:58:43) of the culture as to what your kid needs (00:58:47) but I got no ways for your kids (00:58:51) have one next week maybe it is fun (00:58:55) all right I'm in process thank you (00:59:01) so good (00:59:03) all right who's next BC in the back and (00:59:07) then we'll go do Azure after if you can (00:59:08) also stand and say your name that'd be (00:59:10) great how's it going how are you uh my (00:59:13) mom's on the phone can you talk to her (00:59:15) real quick about what I why I am the way (00:59:17) I am (00:59:20) no I'm kidding (00:59:21) um thank you so much I appreciate all (00:59:24) your wisdom and I've I've screened (00:59:26) wisdom of trauma over 20 times and I (00:59:29) really appreciate what you're doing I'm (00:59:31) curious I work a lot with the public (00:59:32) school system and if you sat down with (00:59:35) them and were to give them some advice (00:59:38) or some direction to take Public Schools (00:59:41) yeah where would that start and I hope (00:59:43) that you are having those conversations (00:59:44) and they're inviting you into that right (00:59:45) now but what is your process on that (00:59:47) well I do get invited to speak to (00:59:49) teachers at least in Canada I do um I (00:59:52) used to be a teacher myself I used to be (00:59:54) a high school teacher (00:59:56) and then I decided that was way too (00:59:58) stressful so I went to medical school (01:00:00) instead that's my story but I did I (01:00:03) taught high school for three years (01:00:03) here's the thing (01:00:07) the schools have it all wrong (01:00:09) they're in the wrong business (01:00:15) they think they're in the business of (01:00:17) teaching kids skills and facts (01:00:22) no (01:00:23) and that's what they're trying to do (01:00:27) now (01:00:28) if you look at again Evolution how did (01:00:30) kids learn they didn't learn sitting in (01:00:32) classrooms (01:00:33) they learned by being out there in (01:00:35) nature with the adults (01:00:37) to experience (01:00:39) and to play (01:00:43) is the reason animals play (01:00:46) this play is essential for healthy brain (01:00:48) development (01:00:50) now how's the human brain develop (01:00:53) the average medical doctor never gets a (01:00:55) single lesson (01:00:56) on how the brain develops (01:00:58) nor does the average teacher (01:01:00) and it will give you the essence of it (01:01:02) and I'm quoting from an article from (01:01:04) Harvard University published in a major (01:01:06) medical journal in 2012. (01:01:10) the human develops (01:01:12) to an ongoing process I'm quoting that (01:01:15) begins before birth and continues into (01:01:17) adulthood (01:01:19) so that's a process that being is prior (01:01:22) to birth (01:01:23) and continues into adulthood number one (01:01:26) number two the most important (01:01:29) in interaction with the environment so (01:01:31) it's the environment it's the (01:01:32) interactions of genes with the (01:01:33) environment and expenses that shapes the (01:01:36) brain not genes is the effect of (01:01:38) experiences on the genes (01:01:40) foreign (01:01:46) and that means that the schools should (01:01:47) be in the business of developing healthy (01:01:49) brains (01:01:50) not in teaching (01:01:54) who won this or that battle in the Civil (01:01:57) War or you know (01:02:02) any other particular fact or skill but (01:02:04) healthy brains because the chosen brains (01:02:07) are developing until adulthood (01:02:10) and since it used to be the case that (01:02:12) kids used to be with the nurturing (01:02:14) adults the whole day (01:02:17) the schools have to be places of (01:02:19) nurturing (01:02:22) not just of transmission of facts and (01:02:24) and abilities but nurturing emotional (01:02:28) nurturing (01:02:29) now if you look at what's the most (01:02:31) important input (01:02:33) that the environment has (01:02:35) on the development of the brain (01:02:38) you know what it is it's the quality of (01:02:40) relationship with the nurturing adults (01:02:43) that's what shapes the sugar to the (01:02:45) brain (01:02:46) the dopamine Circus the serotonin (01:02:48) circuits the Endorphin circuits these (01:02:50) are the essential brain chemicals (01:02:52) all shaped by interactions with the (01:02:55) nurturing adults (01:02:57) in other words the schools need to ask (01:02:59) themselves (01:03:01) and what conditions do children need for (01:03:03) healthy brain development and how can we (01:03:05) provide them that question doesn't even (01:03:06) occur to them (01:03:08) so that's what I would say to them (01:03:10) because then the children who play who (01:03:13) are (01:03:16) naturally curious they'll learn anything (01:03:20) they'll want to (01:03:22) that's their nature (01:03:24) look at a two-year-old they're totally (01:03:26) curious (01:03:28) so the job to school should be the (01:03:31) nurturing of healthy brain development (01:03:32) through nurturing relationships lots of (01:03:36) play lots of interaction lots of (01:03:37) spontaneity lots of creativity (01:03:41) and those kids will know the facts (01:03:43) really well because they'll want to (01:03:46) um (01:03:47) that's the first part of the answer the (01:03:49) second part of the answer is (01:03:51) I already alluded to when you look at (01:03:53) these kids with all these learning (01:03:54) difficulties behavior problems so on (01:03:58) we use these faiths you know we say (01:04:00) about kids they're acting out they're (01:04:02) acting out now when I say kid is acting (01:04:04) out (01:04:05) what do you imagine they're doing (01:04:09) they're being disruptive there's only a (01:04:11) Tanto and they're being aggressive (01:04:14) I used to be an English teacher (01:04:16) that's not what acting out means (01:04:18) acting art means you portraying Behavior (01:04:21) something you haven't got the language (01:04:23) for (01:04:25) so in a game of Charades where you're (01:04:26) not allowed to speak (01:04:28) what do you have to do (01:04:30) you have to act out if I land in a (01:04:33) country where I didn't speak anybody's (01:04:35) language and I was hungry I'd have to (01:04:39) that's what kids are doing they're (01:04:40) acting out (01:04:42) but what are they acting up (01:04:43) directing a lot of emotional needs (01:04:46) and so the job of the schools is to be (01:04:48) educated as to the emotional needs of (01:04:50) children so when kids are acting out (01:04:51) they can respond to the need not to (01:04:54) suppress the behavior (01:04:56) so those are the things that would tell (01:04:58) teachers (01:05:03) so good (01:05:05) my name is Azria Becker (01:05:07) uh thank you for being here my question (01:05:09) is (01:05:11) is there a connection between ADHD and (01:05:14) dyslexia and Trauma (01:05:16) and Trauma and Trauma (01:05:18) um second part of that question (01:05:21) is ADHD a superpower that is just (01:05:25) misunderstood a superpower (01:05:27) yeah (01:05:28) um well I would highly recommend the (01:05:30) first book I wrote was on ADHD (01:05:32) the Canadian title was scattered Minds (01:05:37) the Americans published it with the (01:05:38) words just the title scattered (01:05:41) the Americans publisher didn't think the (01:05:43) American public would understand the (01:05:45) word minds I think that's right (01:05:48) unfortunately the book is coming out (01:05:50) again in the States this month with the (01:05:52) title scattered Minds (01:05:54) I suggest you read it okay now the the (01:05:57) reason I wrote the book is I was (01:05:59) diagnosed with the condition myself in (01:06:00) my 50s (01:06:02) but I never bought into the idea that (01:06:04) this is a genetic disease (01:06:06) in fact I didn't think it was either (01:06:07) genetic nor is it a disease (01:06:09) the tuning out which is the Hallmark of (01:06:12) add the absent-mindedness what is it (01:06:15) actually (01:06:16) why does nature give us the capacity to (01:06:18) tune out (01:06:20) well (01:06:21) it's very simple (01:06:23) if I was to stress you right now (01:06:27) what prayer you know make it on really (01:06:29) uncomfortable (01:06:30) you'd have healthy options what would (01:06:32) they be walk out (01:06:34) or to tell me to back off (01:06:37) fight or flight right (01:06:40) well what if you didn't have those (01:06:41) options (01:06:43) then what would you do (01:06:45) you wouldn't do anything your brain one (01:06:47) of the defenses your brain would adapt (01:06:49) would be to tune out (01:06:53) so (01:06:55) my personal history some of you know it (01:06:57) is I was an infant Jewish infant under (01:06:59) the Nazis in Budapest Hungary (01:07:03) you can imagine what my first year was (01:07:05) like in terms of the emotional states of (01:07:07) my mother (01:07:09) whose parents had just been killed in (01:07:11) Auschwitz her husband is away she (01:07:12) doesn't know if he's dead or alive and (01:07:14) we're under threat ourselves that was my (01:07:16) first year (01:07:20) a lot of stress could I escape or fight (01:07:22) back no (01:07:24) I tune up (01:07:27) but when am I tuning up when my brain is (01:07:29) developing (01:07:31) so tuning out that's wired in as the (01:07:33) default setting of my brain (01:07:35) 50 years later I'm diagnosed with this (01:07:37) so-called disease (01:07:39) it's not a disease it was a coping (01:07:41) mechanism that originally served a (01:07:44) purpose (01:07:45) later on I didn't (01:07:48) so yeah now why are we seeing more no if (01:07:51) anything is genetic we shouldn't be (01:07:52) seeing it in English should we because (01:07:54) genes don't change in a population if (01:07:56) all of a sudden in China they're having (01:07:58) ADHD where they never used to have it (01:08:00) there's a reason for it (01:08:04) if more and more kids are being (01:08:05) diagnosed and by the way by some (01:08:08) miraculous accidental faith (01:08:12) which kids are getting more often (01:08:13) diagnosed and medicated (01:08:15) kids of color kids who live in poverty (01:08:18) what a coincidence (01:08:22) what a coincidence they just happen to (01:08:24) be the most stressed kids I'm not (01:08:26) blaming parents here (01:08:27) parents do their best I did my best (01:08:31) but when I was a parent I hadn't asked (01:08:34) that question yet (01:08:36) that's all I'd asked (01:08:37) I passed you know so there are our our (01:08:39) home was a very stressful home (01:08:42) our kids tune up they developed the same (01:08:44) condition so yeah I think ADHD is a (01:08:46) response to (01:08:49) stress (01:08:53) I think learning difficulties are very (01:08:55) often the impact of stress in the Euro (01:08:58) even because we already know that stress (01:09:00) on the pregnant woman (01:09:03) not to her fault we're not blaming the (01:09:05) parents here no parent chooses to be (01:09:06) stressed that's a condition of living in (01:09:08) this culture parents do their best (01:09:11) parents really do their best and it's (01:09:14) not the question do they love their kids (01:09:15) or do they (01:09:16) are they devoted sure they are (01:09:18) the question is how stressed they are (01:09:21) so depressed mothers for example (01:09:24) they love their kids just as much as any (01:09:26) other mother but they can't they can't (01:09:28) attune with the child (01:09:30) as well as a non-depressed mother not (01:09:33) their fault (01:09:34) the brain won't let them (01:09:36) those kids are more likely to develop (01:09:38) ADHD (01:09:40) and I think the same thing instrument is (01:09:41) learning difficulties now (01:09:44) that answers that part of the question (01:09:45) and if that's not satisfactory just ask (01:09:48) again (01:09:49) the second question this business (01:09:50) superpowers (01:09:52) I don't go there like there's this same (01:09:55) time Hartman that I mentioned who talked (01:09:56) about the toxic versus the nurture (01:09:58) Society he developed this hunter (01:10:00) gatherer a Hunter Farmer theory about (01:10:03) ADHD about the you know there's the (01:10:06) hunters and there's the who have to be (01:10:08) on the outside and move around and then (01:10:10) there's the farmers who have to get done (01:10:12) to work and focus and you know they in (01:10:15) the old in in in olden times those (01:10:18) people with ADHD would be the hunters (01:10:21) but right now there's no more hunting so (01:10:24) they're seen as having a problem but (01:10:26) really it's a superpower that isn't ex I (01:10:29) don't go there (01:10:31) I could live without losing things all (01:10:33) the time I really could you know if I go (01:10:35) on a speaking trip guaranteed I'm gonna (01:10:37) lose something you know I could lose (01:10:40) without my room being a tornado (01:10:44) aftermath (01:10:47) I could live without forgetting things (01:10:49) all the time (01:10:50) you know um and I don't personally (01:10:52) particularly understand how being (01:10:54) difficulty having difficulty standing (01:10:57) still and paying attention makes you a (01:10:59) great hunter I just don't get it (01:11:02) now what is true (01:11:05) is a lot of people with (01:11:07) ADHD or bipolar disorder or depression (01:11:11) or addictions (01:11:14) are very talented creative (01:11:17) wonderful people (01:11:19) but that's not because of their (01:11:20) condition (01:11:23) is because what underlies their (01:11:25) condition (01:11:27) and would underlies their condition is (01:11:29) the only thing that's genetic (01:11:31) which is sensitivity (01:11:34) now the most sensitive you are (01:11:36) the more spontaneous the more creative (01:11:41) the more joyful you're going to be (01:11:44) when the circumstances are right (01:11:46) but when things go wrong you're going to (01:11:48) hurt more even more so um let me give (01:11:51) you an example I'm just gonna (01:11:53) pardon me if I don't know (01:11:54) if you get an idea (01:12:03) how much did that hurt you not at all (01:12:06) but imagine if there was a (01:12:10) your skin was Bare yeah and there was a (01:12:12) burn there yeah so they just moved (01:12:15) anything close to the surface in fact (01:12:17) you're with the same Force now what (01:12:19) would you experience a lot of severe (01:12:21) pain even though the (01:12:24) external (01:12:26) stimulus wasn't any greater but the (01:12:28) degree of pain that you'd experienced (01:12:30) would be far greater and so what is (01:12:34) genetic here I think is that Heidegger's (01:12:35) sensitivity that's what creates the (01:12:37) superpowers (01:12:38) but it also what makes the kids more (01:12:40) troubled when the environment isn't (01:12:43) right for them then so that's that's how (01:12:45) I see and that's why so many comedians (01:12:48) and artists and actors (01:12:50) and creative people (01:12:52) um also have such problems because (01:12:55) they're so sensitive (01:12:57) and the environment just didn't support (01:12:59) them (01:13:02) okay (01:13:03) thank you so much for being here (01:13:05) I'm Mia (01:13:06) and I'm curious you're mentioning so (01:13:08) many different responses so many (01:13:11) different ways of expressing what has (01:13:14) happened to us and how we've been (01:13:15) wounded from addiction to depression and (01:13:18) I'm curious specifically about anger is (01:13:21) there angry anger yeah is there anything (01:13:24) that you've noticed that particularly (01:13:26) causes that as an adult reaction or that (01:13:30) is the underlying wound that that shows (01:13:33) up and expresses as that when we grow (01:13:35) older are you talking about adult anger (01:13:38) yes and are you talking about angry (01:13:40) that's destructive and eruptive and and (01:13:42) like a volcanic is that what you're (01:13:44) talking about yes yes and there's the (01:13:47) social thing is healthy anger you know (01:13:48) yeah I think beyond that like quick (01:13:51) fuses and ease to frustration and yeah (01:13:54) hot fast (01:13:56) anger that can that can go from nothing (01:14:00) to something quickly yeah got it I (01:14:03) mentioned my friend (01:14:05) [Music] (01:14:05) um (01:14:06) the psychologists go in Newfield and uh (01:14:10) he's the main author of our book I (01:14:12) helped to write with him it's called (01:14:14) um (01:14:16) um hold on to your kids it's a parenting (01:14:18) book okay (01:14:20) um I think it's really an important book (01:14:22) um it's been published in 30 countries (01:14:24) and Gordon says (01:14:26) and Gordon to my mind is the world's (01:14:29) most astute developmental psychologist (01:14:32) not as well known as he should be (01:14:34) and he says that (01:14:36) frustration is the engine of aggression (01:14:41) so that person who erupts in frustrate (01:14:44) in aggression (01:14:45) is frustrated deeply frustrated (01:14:48) when I will be frustrated (01:14:51) when our needs are not met (01:14:54) so the angry adult was the frustrated (01:14:59) child whose needs were not met (01:15:03) and who probably didn't have the freedom (01:15:06) to express their (01:15:09) anger as children (01:15:12) so there to suppress it so what happens (01:15:15) with the pressure cooker (01:15:18) if you keep boiling the water at some (01:15:20) point literally it Blows Its Top (01:15:23) that's what we call an Oroville volcano (01:15:26) volcano when the pressure is enough they (01:15:28) both stop so somebody who's like that (01:15:31) hasn't learned how to express their (01:15:34) healthy anger (01:15:36) and how to process and hold their own (01:15:38) emotions (01:15:40) and then something happens and (01:15:44) interrupts (01:15:47) um so it has to do with childhood (01:15:49) frustration (01:15:50) and (01:15:52) again my friend Larry we both talk about (01:15:56) people have trouble regulating their (01:15:57) emotions (01:15:59) it's perfectly angry it's perfectly (01:16:00) healthy for a child to be angry but (01:16:03) as we mature we were into regulatory (01:16:06) emotions (01:16:07) so that if I'm noticing the anger (01:16:10) arising within me I'll notice it (01:16:14) the person that you're describing never (01:16:16) notices it (01:16:18) it arises in them until they can't (01:16:20) control it it just blows their thought (01:16:22) they blow their top so something (01:16:23) happened to them that made them very (01:16:26) frustrated and something happened to (01:16:27) them (01:16:28) that makes it difficult for them to (01:16:30) regulate their own emotions (01:16:31) my concern would be that (01:16:34) this may not be the case at all but (01:16:37) if you are in relationship with people (01:16:38) like that (01:16:40) it's not your job to try and figure out (01:16:41) what's going on with them (01:16:43) your job is to look after yourself (01:16:46) like it doesn't matter not that it (01:16:49) doesn't matter (01:16:51) but sometimes in a society (01:16:55) especially women take on the role of (01:16:57) understanding their (01:16:59) Partners but at the risk of ignoring (01:17:02) their own needs (01:17:04) so (01:17:05) I'm not going to go any further with (01:17:07) that I just that'll be my concern in (01:17:08) anybody who asked that question it's (01:17:11) okay it's one thing to understand it and (01:17:13) if if that person came to me (01:17:17) I know how to help them the trouble is (01:17:19) these people very often don't ask for (01:17:21) help (01:17:23) and it's their people so people in their (01:17:25) lives who ask for help but they tend not (01:17:28) to no sometimes they do and when they do (01:17:30) that's great (01:17:32) but (01:17:34) so yeah okay hi I'm Angel (01:17:38) um I have a question about psychiatric (01:17:40) medication yeah so what I'm hearing you (01:17:42) talk a lot about is how trauma (01:17:44) will often inform a survival adaptation (01:17:47) that then gets pathologized (01:17:49) maybe even into a psychiatric condition (01:17:52) and then I have two immediate family (01:17:53) members who are medicated sometimes it's (01:17:56) necessary but the thing that I notice is (01:17:59) it makes it very hard for them to access (01:18:01) their own inner experience (01:18:03) which makes me think it's hard for them (01:18:06) to actually heal the trauma that's (01:18:08) underlying the conditions of medication (01:18:10) is there a process did you say (01:18:12) medications medication psychiatric (01:18:15) medication medication yes okay (01:18:17) I've taken them yeah (01:18:20) um I don't take them anymore haven't had (01:18:22) to take for a long time (01:18:24) um when I was writing this book (01:18:26) I made myself quite anxious and kind of (01:18:29) freaked myself out (01:18:30) taking on too much I can't do this the (01:18:33) world will finally see what a total (01:18:34) failure I am you know (01:18:36) and so I tried taking a bit of (01:18:38) medication all I got was side effects I (01:18:40) stopped it after two days (01:18:42) but but decades ago they helped me (01:18:44) antidepressants (01:18:48) um they're they're overused (01:18:52) but my problem is so they you know the (01:18:54) average psychiatrist these days has no (01:18:57) training in trauma (01:18:58) zero (01:19:02) certainly no training in my brain (01:19:03) development all the stuff about I said (01:19:06) about relationships and childhood needs (01:19:07) they haven't got a clue about (01:19:10) what they see is somebody comes into the (01:19:12) problem you've got a brain disease let's (01:19:14) give you a biological agent to balance (01:19:16) your brain (01:19:18) so if you've got depression (01:19:21) um you must be lacking serotonin in your (01:19:23) brain let's give you a medication (01:19:26) SSRI to increase your serotonin levels (01:19:29) you know how much proof there is for the (01:19:31) serotonin theory of depression (01:19:33) how much scientific proof there is for (01:19:35) him (01:19:37) this much (01:19:38) none zero zilch nada (01:19:41) nothing (01:19:43) which doesn't mean they can't help (01:19:46) but the theory that the depression is (01:19:48) caused by lack of Soto and there's no (01:19:50) proof for it (01:19:52) and it's kind of like arguing like (01:19:54) if you (01:19:56) had social anxiety and you went to a (01:19:58) party and you had a (01:20:00) glass of whiskey and all of a sudden you (01:20:02) became friendly and sociable would that (01:20:05) prove that your social anxiety is caused (01:20:06) by a lack of whiskey in your brain you (01:20:08) know (01:20:09) that's kind of that that kind of (01:20:11) argument you know (01:20:15) so they prescribed far too quickly and (01:20:18) far too often and for far too long (01:20:25) some like 25 percent of women in this (01:20:28) country are in some kind of psychiatric (01:20:29) medication 25 so if you're gonna use (01:20:32) them here's why here's the analogy that (01:20:34) I give let's say somebody's stuck in a (01:20:36) mud let's say there's a road here that (01:20:39) you want to walk on (01:20:40) you want to walk on this road but you're (01:20:42) stuck in the mud right here you lift one (01:20:44) foot the other one sinks deeper into the (01:20:46) mud (01:20:48) properly used the second medication can (01:20:51) get you on dry land (01:20:54) this is where you want to go (01:20:57) when you get on dry land you're not (01:20:59) there but at least you can walk (01:21:02) properly with secular medicines you can (01:21:05) do that when somebody gets stabilized in (01:21:07) psychotic medications that's when the (01:21:09) work should begin (01:21:11) but the problem is that's when it ends (01:21:14) in the hands of most Physicians (01:21:17) now (01:21:19) do they always work no (01:21:21) can they cause side effects yes can they (01:21:24) make somebody a bit numb so that they (01:21:26) can't deal with their issues they can do (01:21:28) that as well but if that's the case (01:21:30) that's up to the prescriber (01:21:33) to correct the thing (01:21:35) because you want them to you want the (01:21:37) person to be able to deal with their (01:21:39) issues and to feel their emotions (01:21:41) and sometimes with medications that's (01:21:43) kind of taken away well that's just one (01:21:45) of those side effects you don't want but (01:21:47) you can deal with that as long as you're (01:21:49) aware of it (01:21:50) but as long as your only aim is to get (01:21:52) rid of some symptoms (01:21:53) without looking at the causes (01:21:57) nothing ever happens (01:21:59) Garen Jones Gabbert thank you for your (01:22:02) um just your gift (01:22:05) um (01:22:06) I've been fortunate enough to experience (01:22:09) a lot of um trauma physically (01:22:12) um as a from a child and I overcame that (01:22:15) through many different modalities and I (01:22:17) turned it into Triumph (01:22:20) but there's a part in me that (01:22:23) there's like a repetitive pattern that (01:22:27) continues to manifest in my life where I (01:22:30) want to now continue to have that (01:22:32) physical something it's not like it was (01:22:34) when I was a kid so I'll go run 64 miles (01:22:37) over a mountain just because and through (01:22:40) that I get a lot of downloads and (01:22:42) insights am I am I perpetuating (01:22:46) the trauma as a kid because I'm doing (01:22:49) something that I like that is really (01:22:51) physical (01:22:53) that kind of takes me into the same (01:22:55) place but I use that energy to do (01:22:56) something great (01:22:58) does that make sense is there a downside (01:23:01) is there a downside I mean it's (01:23:03) difficult when I go through them yeah no (01:23:06) but if it is a downside afterwards no is (01:23:09) it addictive (01:23:11) I'm addicted to getting downloads and (01:23:14) insights yes (01:23:15) well let me let me give you a definition (01:23:17) let me give you a definition of (01:23:18) addiction and tell me if it's addictive (01:23:20) or not okay (01:23:21) so addiction is manifested in any (01:23:23) Behavior (01:23:24) in which a person finds temporary relief (01:23:27) or pleasure which causes harm and they (01:23:30) can't give it up oh no it doesn't cause (01:23:33) cause harm at all then there's nothing (01:23:35) wrong with it then it's just something (01:23:36) that you're doing to (01:23:38) get yourself in a state where you have (01:23:40) experiences that support you (01:23:43) that's all I'm seeing here okay because (01:23:44) I had someone just like you don't have (01:23:47) to go through these hard things I'm like (01:23:49) no no you don't have to do them (01:23:51) yeah but you're choosing to do them (01:23:54) right yeah I'm choosing to do them yeah (01:23:56) you're free to choose to do them yeah (01:23:58) you could not do them if you didn't want (01:24:00) to if I didn't want to yeah but what I (01:24:02) noticed was when I don't do them the (01:24:06) insights aren't as uh (01:24:09) vast they're not they don't come on as (01:24:12) strong yeah well I think I think what (01:24:14) happens my guess is what happens is when (01:24:15) you're doing this is a hard physical (01:24:17) things that you do yeah (01:24:19) my guess is just extreme or hard or (01:24:21) physical yep yeah (01:24:23) um (01:24:24) let me read you a quote okay this is (01:24:26) somebody who did free diving you know (01:24:28) what free diving is yeah you go deep (01:24:30) without any Oxygen (01:24:34) this one was a champion free diver but (01:24:37) she died doing it okay but she said at (01:24:40) some point feed diving is not only a (01:24:42) sport it's a way to understand who you (01:24:45) are (01:24:46) when we go down we don't think we (01:24:49) understand we are whole we are one with (01:24:53) the world (01:24:56) when we think we are separate (01:24:59) on the surface it is natural to think (01:25:02) and we have (01:25:04) many information inside much you know (01:25:07) we need to reset sometime feed diving (01:25:10) helps to do that (01:25:12) is there anything about that resonate (01:25:14) with you when you're doing these (01:25:15) difficult things or you're more present (01:25:18) way more present yeah you're more with (01:25:20) yourself yep okay nothing wrong with it (01:25:23) in fact it's wonderful people meditate (01:25:26) people do psychedelics to get into those (01:25:29) States this is what you do (01:25:31) naturally the insights come because (01:25:33) you're more present (01:25:37) the only question is are you taking (01:25:38) risks (01:25:39) that might really hurt you (01:25:43) not necessarily well then then I got (01:25:46) nothing to say except congratulations (01:25:47) [Laughter] (01:25:50) so good and I just want a quick little (01:25:52) follow-up to that (01:25:54) not to say that that for example would (01:25:56) be a coping mechanism but of course a (01:25:59) positive coping mechanism would be more (01:26:01) beneficial than a negative one for (01:26:03) example feeling sadness going for a run (01:26:06) is better than drinking a glass of (01:26:07) whiskey yeah but if we continually go (01:26:11) for runs because it's our coping (01:26:12) mechanism does it masquerade (01:26:15) us discovering why we have to why we (01:26:18) feel like we have to cope in the first (01:26:19) place well if if we're doing it if we're (01:26:22) wanting to run away from ourselves (01:26:24) right it doesn't yes but that's not what (01:26:27) I that's not what I'm hearing here right (01:26:28) yeah I'm actually hearing somebody going (01:26:30) closer to themselves yeah Nikki I saw (01:26:33) raise your hands for a while over here (01:26:35) hi I had to speak because I actually (01:26:37) work in addiction treatment yeah and so (01:26:40) you're one of the people that I (01:26:41) reference a lot when I do my group (01:26:43) therapy with people and just one of the (01:26:46) biggest things I'll share with them is (01:26:47) that what you say is not why the (01:26:49) addiction but why the pain so that's (01:26:51) something that we talk about a lot in (01:26:53) groups but the one thing I wanted to ask (01:26:55) you is something I notice with every (01:26:58) person is just the the biggest (01:27:00) difference between someone getting (01:27:02) better or someone growing out of that (01:27:04) that trauma cycle it seems to be like an (01:27:07) open-mindedness you know like when I'm (01:27:09) talking to someone I can tell if I'm (01:27:12) talking to the part of them that's (01:27:13) preserving the way that they already see (01:27:16) the world versus when I'm talking to (01:27:18) someone who has completely open mind (01:27:20) open slate so I was curious because also (01:27:23) some people die in knows people who (01:27:25) aren't open-minded with certain (01:27:27) personality disorders or they might say (01:27:29) they're borderline or they're whatever (01:27:31) it might be so I'm curious what allows a (01:27:34) person to be open-minded versus another (01:27:36) well what's your name Nikki Nikki (01:27:41) you counsel these people yeah okay what (01:27:43) an answer is this when you're working (01:27:45) with one of these people that you (01:27:47) perceive is not open-minded what happens (01:27:49) for you (01:27:52) it's a good question (01:27:54) that's why I asked it (01:27:55) [Laughter] (01:28:00) I think I notice it do you know so I (01:28:03) take note of it okay you know what (01:28:05) happens for you (01:28:08) sorry I (01:28:10) how do you feel I think I get a little (01:28:12) frustrated you get frustrated (01:28:20) it's a good point no (01:28:23) if if I was in this dialogue with you (01:28:27) but I got frustrated (01:28:29) would you sense that yep how would you (01:28:33) feel probably shut down you shut down (01:28:36) whose mind is not open (01:28:41) I feel like I just got Jiu Jitsu flips (01:28:44) so (01:28:47) um no this is not to this is not to make (01:28:50) you wrong naturally it's just to make (01:28:52) you aware of something no you're hitting (01:28:54) something and let me ask you this (01:28:55) question when was the first time in your (01:28:58) life (01:28:59) when it was frustrating for you that (01:29:01) somebody important just didn't get it (01:29:06) yeah (01:29:08) this is where it comes from it's got (01:29:09) nothing to do with that client (01:29:12) the client is just triggering something (01:29:14) in you (01:29:16) so you work on that believe me you (01:29:19) you'll meet many more open-minded people (01:29:21) all of a sudden (01:29:24) wow I'm gonna drop my microphone I don't (01:29:27) know (01:29:28) bars thank you you're welcome that was (01:29:31) so good (01:29:33) I'm gonna go sit in a corner and think (01:29:40) oh wonderful yeah we have time for a few (01:29:42) more Ben in the corner way back by the (01:29:44) way let me just mention something again (01:29:45) self-serving (01:29:46) um Larry would you stand up for a minute (01:29:49) yeah this is my friend Larry Heller that (01:29:51) we um what's the name what's the (01:29:53) modality of the uh therapy that you (01:29:55) teach a neuro effective relational model (01:29:57) okay we call it so (01:30:01) um (01:30:04) I teach what's called compassionate (01:30:06) inquiry (01:30:08) and both our approaches involve (01:30:12) um (01:30:13) it's for therapists so counselors (01:30:15) Physicians whoever (01:30:17) the biggest work is the work that we do (01:30:18) in ourselves (01:30:20) that's why I went to you I didn't go to (01:30:21) the audio with the open you know it's (01:30:23) about you (01:30:24) Larry would you want to say anything (01:30:25) about that oh it's about the therapist (01:30:27) it's not just about the client (01:30:29) one of the things that you you talked (01:30:32) about is (01:30:33) the importance of the parent being (01:30:36) attuned to the child's internal world (01:30:38) and not just focusing on their behaviors (01:30:40) well that's the important thing in (01:30:43) therapy too is not just focusing on (01:30:45) cognitions and behaviors for example but (01:30:48) really being able to focus on and attune (01:30:51) to that client's inner world and the (01:30:54) only way we can do that if we're also in (01:30:56) connection with our own internal world (01:30:58) so it's that meeting on that level that (01:31:01) is so significant (01:31:03) thank you (01:31:05) thank you so much for being here I um I (01:31:08) had a question that kind of followed up (01:31:10) on part of the the topic of depression (01:31:13) how much do you think or do you think (01:31:16) the disconnection that we have with our (01:31:18) authentic selves or who we truly are or (01:31:21) and the disconnection that we have with (01:31:23) play contributes to (01:31:26) depression or or anxiety (01:31:30) okay (01:31:31) um (01:31:32) so (01:31:33) what is the word what does it mean to (01:31:36) depress something (01:31:38) down (01:31:41) that's what depression is (01:31:44) genetic disease no it isn't (01:31:47) no what what gets pushed done in (01:31:49) depression you emotions (01:31:53) particularly anger actually (01:31:56) but (01:31:57) trauma is once you start pushing down (01:31:58) emotions you don't get to choose what (01:32:00) you push down (01:32:01) now why would a kid push down their (01:32:03) emotions (01:32:04) I've already talked about it when your (01:32:07) moment isn't ready to receive those (01:32:10) emotions (01:32:11) let alone when it punishes it (01:32:13) but just if they don't receive it so the (01:32:15) child in order to belong to (01:32:18) the attachment pushes down their (01:32:20) emotions now they lose connection with (01:32:21) themselves (01:32:23) that's what depression is (01:32:26) anxiety (01:32:28) um we have circuits in our brain for (01:32:31) fear (01:32:33) is that a good thing or a bad thing (01:32:35) good it's an essential thing (01:32:38) no creature in nature would survive (01:32:40) without fear (01:32:46) but (01:32:48) lack of safety (01:32:50) safety isn't just the absence of a (01:32:52) threat (01:32:54) safety is also the presence of (01:32:56) connection (01:32:59) so (01:33:01) when an infant (01:33:03) is left by themselves (01:33:06) they're going to be afraid (01:33:08) and they should be (01:33:10) then they start crying (01:33:12) and that should bring the parents (01:33:14) running by the way indigenous people (01:33:16) they never even put their kids down (01:33:19) they just don't they carry them (01:33:20) everywhere (01:33:21) in our society parents are told to put (01:33:23) the kid down and don't pick them up (01:33:26) it's a laboratory for raising anxious (01:33:28) people (01:33:29) it's not to pick up their babies (01:33:31) sleep train them (01:33:33) don't pick them up you know well that (01:33:37) natural fear then becomes chronic now (01:33:39) you've got anxiety (01:33:41) nothing wrong with the fear but if the (01:33:44) fear is not responded to (01:33:46) it becomes anxiety (01:33:50) so both anxiety and depression (01:33:56) have their sources in very simple (01:33:58) Dynamics I think (01:34:00) but then of course they become (01:34:02) overwhelming states that are (01:34:05) make life so difficult for people does (01:34:06) that answer your question yeah it does (01:34:08) and anything about the disconnection (01:34:10) with play and losing that and they're (01:34:13) both they're both disconnections yeah (01:34:14) yeah yeah thank you (01:34:17) um I was wondering how you define (01:34:19) self-actualization yeah what's your (01:34:22) definition of that word (01:34:24) well (01:34:27) being in touch with the true self and (01:34:29) being able to manifest that in the world (01:34:31) in my actions and in my reactions and in (01:34:35) my relationships (01:34:38) what would you say (01:34:40) um finding the most alive unique (01:34:42) creative Center of your being yeah and (01:34:46) cultivating it okay well we're close (01:34:49) what's up bro my name is Lucas Matt I (01:34:52) had to write this question down to (01:34:53) articulator (01:34:54) I'm aware that you've explored working (01:34:56) with plant medicines (01:34:58) and practices like Kundalini Yoga over (01:35:00) the years (01:35:02) and my question is I'm wondering if you (01:35:04) find your work with clients has revealed (01:35:06) connections between trauma and entity (01:35:09) attachments or more energetic influences (01:35:12) I don't know if I can properly answer (01:35:14) your question (01:35:15) um I worked (01:35:17) I've done quite a bit of work with (01:35:18) psychedelics particularly but not only (01:35:21) ayahuasca (01:35:22) yeah (01:35:23) in my in in in retweets that I (01:35:26) facilitated (01:35:28) people have had entities visit them (01:35:31) they've had the mother (01:35:33) Ayahuasca come and talk to them the (01:35:35) Madre (01:35:36) they've had anacondas (01:35:39) and jaguars (01:35:41) and angels (01:35:44) and (01:35:45) octopuses (01:35:47) and all manner of spirits (01:35:51) no entity has ever visited me (01:35:54) not even close (01:35:56) the mother has never spoken to me (01:35:59) no anacondas no Jaguars No Angels (01:36:02) mostly just stomachache you know and (01:36:06) some insights you know so (01:36:08) um (01:36:10) so how do I understand those entities (01:36:14) um the shamans that I work with (01:36:17) they see demons on people's shoulders (01:36:19) during ceremony I'm looking at them I (01:36:22) don't see demons (01:36:24) but they see them (01:36:27) no (01:36:30) I'm sort of a western trained (01:36:32) rationalist (01:36:35) so on the one hand I'm not ready to (01:36:36) dismiss their experiences pure (01:36:38) fabrication (01:36:40) on the other hand I don't have any (01:36:43) concept of demons and spirits or (01:36:45) entities (01:36:47) so how do I reconcile the two (01:36:50) so I can only tell you how (01:36:52) I make sense of this (01:36:54) but it's not necessarily the answer (01:36:55) because my Shaman friends would tell me (01:36:57) come on they're demons there (01:37:00) the Jaguars those angels I would say (01:37:03) that (01:37:04) those (01:37:06) images or manifestations of Energies (01:37:11) and deep inner experiences (01:37:13) and some people have Minds that (01:37:15) transform them into entities (01:37:17) people have different Minds some people (01:37:19) see colors that others don't see (01:37:24) and so I think (01:37:27) everything that people see or experience (01:37:29) their genuine manifestations on some (01:37:32) inner Dynamic that takes on a kind of (01:37:34) dreamlike quality like in a dream we'll (01:37:36) see all kinds of things our mind will in (01:37:39) a dream we'll have an emotional state (01:37:41) and then our minds will create a picture (01:37:44) to account for that emotional state or (01:37:46) to be consistent with it (01:37:48) so I might dream that Nazis are chasing (01:37:51) me and therefore I'm afraid (01:37:52) because the Nazis are chasing me but (01:37:55) that's not what's really happening I'm (01:37:56) not a faithfulness they're chasing me (01:37:59) NASA chasing me because I'm afraid (01:38:02) because in a dream state the parts of (01:38:04) the brain and the same in psychedelic (01:38:05) experiences by the way (01:38:07) same in a dream state the parts of the (01:38:09) brain (01:38:10) that whole childhood emotional memory (01:38:12) get more blood supply they get (01:38:14) enlightened (01:38:16) and the conscious brain goes to sleep (01:38:21) and so what happens is let's say I (01:38:23) experience a state of fear (01:38:25) or state of sexual arousal (01:38:28) in a state of fear (01:38:31) my mind will make up a story to explain (01:38:33) the fear or give me a picture to explain (01:38:35) the fear (01:38:36) in a state of sexual arousal (01:38:38) my mind will give me a beautiful woman (01:38:42) and then I'm turned on but I'm not (01:38:44) turned on because I'm seeing a beautiful (01:38:45) woman I'm seeing a beautiful woman (01:38:47) because I'm turned on (01:38:49) foreign (01:38:50) entities (01:38:53) now that's still the unsatisfactory to (01:38:55) people that really see them and believe (01:38:57) in them and I'm not claiming to be right (01:38:59) I'm only telling you (01:39:01) what mind can make but my own limited (01:39:03) mind can make of it I hope that answers (01:39:05) your question (01:39:07) thank you for sharing yeah (01:39:11) wonderful and is there anything you want (01:39:13) to share with your own ayahuasca's (01:39:15) ceremony with the ship Evo that I know (01:39:17) it's a I can it's a story we can read (01:39:20) the chapter in the book yeah yeah it's a (01:39:21) good one it's a good one (01:39:23) but once I I went to Peru to lead a (01:39:26) retreat and the shamans who didn't know (01:39:27) anything about me fired me within a day (01:39:29) for my own retreat (01:39:33) it's a great story it's in chapter (01:39:35) chapter 31 of the book (01:39:37) there we go hello Bryant thank you so (01:39:40) much both of you first what have you (01:39:43) found to be the most effective question (01:39:45) that you've asked someone to help them (01:39:47) understand themselves (01:39:49) I don't know that I have an answer to (01:39:51) that (01:39:52) um but the most effective question I (01:39:55) have usually is (01:39:56) what's happening for you right now yeah (01:39:59) just what's happening for you right now (01:40:01) now (01:40:02) because we're having an interaction (01:40:04) we're talking about something so what's (01:40:06) happening for you right now let me check (01:40:08) in with your body (01:40:09) what's happening in your body right now (01:40:11) that I think is the key question is (01:40:12) which is what's happening because it's (01:40:15) so not theoretical yeah and it's so not (01:40:18) narrative it's just right here (01:40:21) so it's what's happening right now (01:40:24) that's (01:40:26) that to me is the most important (01:40:28) question cool that's amazing it kind of (01:40:31) goes into my second question let's say (01:40:33) that I have like anxiety or social (01:40:35) pressure come into my body in this (01:40:37) moment what's a tool that you use or (01:40:39) teach to show people how to connect to (01:40:41) their intuition and self-regulate I (01:40:44) think the most important thing in that (01:40:45) state (01:40:47) you're already are you aware that you're (01:40:49) feeling this anxiety (01:40:53) am I aware of so that's what I would ask (01:40:56) are you aware that you know do you have (01:40:59) the capacity to notice that when the (01:41:02) body was teaching his monks (01:41:04) he didn't say that the monk never (01:41:06) experiences anxiety (01:41:08) he never said that the among never (01:41:09) experiences anger what he said was (01:41:12) when the monk has anxiety he says in me (01:41:16) there's anxiety (01:41:18) when is anger in me the monk says in me (01:41:21) there's anger (01:41:22) Amy there's lust (01:41:24) Okay so (01:41:26) do you have the capacity (01:41:29) to be aware that's what I'm asking you (01:41:30) sometimes I do and sometimes I don't I'm (01:41:32) asking with you do you have that (01:41:34) capacity to be aware (01:41:35) yes okay (01:41:40) who has that who's the one that's got (01:41:42) the capacity (01:41:43) well right now the question because it's (01:41:46) guiding my awareness to understand (01:41:47) something about myself (01:41:49) well so if you have the capacity to be (01:41:52) aware of the anxiety Then my suggestion (01:41:54) is pay attention to the anxiety yeah be (01:41:57) with it hold it (01:42:00) the Insight will come (01:42:03) so just the other day I spoke with Tara (01:42:06) Brock probably some of you know her work (01:42:07) third brackets are meditation Buddhist (01:42:10) Meditation teacher wonderful (01:42:11) International you know (01:42:13) she's been (01:42:15) called radical compassion that's one of (01:42:17) her books and she talks about something (01:42:18) called rain rain is the method that (01:42:21) she's helped to develop r-a-i-n (01:42:25) recognize (01:42:27) allow (01:42:29) investigate nurture (01:42:31) so in that state if you recognize that (01:42:34) there's anger that's the recognition (01:42:36) part (01:42:38) oh sorry anxiety yeah I recognize this (01:42:40) anxiety right now and (01:42:43) um allow I'm not going to fight it I'm (01:42:46) not going to try and get rid of it I'm (01:42:47) not going to turn on the television (01:42:49) or get him a cell phone or take a drug (01:42:52) or eat something I'm going to allow it (01:42:57) that's the a part (01:43:00) investigators well what is this about (01:43:02) well first of all what what's life what (01:43:04) does it feel like in my body oh it's (01:43:05) butterflies in my belly tension in my (01:43:08) chest you know Construction in my throat (01:43:12) pay attention to it allow it all (01:43:13) investigate it (01:43:16) and then (01:43:19) nurture (01:43:22) that little anxious part which (01:43:24) incidentally is just a (01:43:26) childhood memory (01:43:28) hmm (01:43:29) because as an adult you got nothing to (01:43:31) be anxious about you might have concerns (01:43:33) and fears that are legitimate but that's (01:43:35) not the same as anxiety (01:43:38) so (01:43:40) how to deal with it how to allow that (01:43:43) Insight which is what you're asking to (01:43:45) to arise yeah hang out with the emotion (01:43:48) Reign it got it recognize (01:43:52) allow investigate and nurture and then (01:43:54) the insights will come okay beautiful (01:43:57) thank you so much and one more super (01:44:00) important to me (01:44:02) I notice there's a huge significance on (01:44:07) someone's individual trauma of what (01:44:09) they've personally been through in this (01:44:10) lifetime yeah can you talk about the (01:44:12) importance of Community Family (01:44:15) institutional historical spiritual (01:44:17) trauma as well (01:44:19) well trauma is always multi-generational (01:44:24) no I passed it on to my kids as I (01:44:26) mentioned (01:44:27) they didn't grow up in Nazi Germany and (01:44:29) Nazi Hungary when that's yogurt hungry (01:44:31) but they grew up with the father who was (01:44:33) a workaholic (01:44:35) trying to prove can you imagine why I (01:44:38) might have learned as an infant to try (01:44:39) and justify my existence and that shows (01:44:42) up as a worker like a physician who is (01:44:45) admired by the world I got all these (01:44:47) Strokes (01:44:48) I get more money I got more admiration (01:44:50) and respect people want me it's very (01:44:53) addictive and my own kids get neglected (01:44:58) it's always multi-generational (01:45:00) almost always imagination and we can see (01:45:03) that in colonized communities indigenous (01:45:06) population in North America and Canada (01:45:09) oh boy (01:45:12) fifty percent of the women in Canada are (01:45:15) indigenous they make up five percent of (01:45:17) the population so so it's always (01:45:20) multi-generational (01:45:22) um (01:45:23) and it's never just about the individual (01:45:26) it's hardly everybody but no some (01:45:27) populations are then continue to be (01:45:29) traumatized (01:45:31) like in this Society this is not a (01:45:34) America is not a society of equal (01:45:36) equality of opportunity (01:45:38) nor is it a society of equality of (01:45:40) trauma (01:45:41) some racial groups ethnic groups (01:45:45) economic groups are traumatized far more (01:45:48) ongoingly by the structures built into (01:45:51) this Society (01:45:54) I mean not enough to tell you that yeah (01:45:57) no I do answering it perfectly healing (01:45:59) can't just be an individual thing (01:46:01) you know this is why there's activism (01:46:03) there's advocacy (01:46:05) you know there's (01:46:07) organizing (01:46:09) um (01:46:10) there has to be some response to the (01:46:13) traumatizing forces in this culture (01:46:15) yes that isn't just individual it's (01:46:18) never going to work on an individual (01:46:19) level but (01:46:20) at the same time you meet people who my (01:46:23) God you I yeah (01:46:26) recently (01:46:28) had contact with a couple of (01:46:32) guys in a death row in Austin Texas (01:46:38) severely traumatized children they're (01:46:41) facing the death penalty now you know (01:46:42) they're sitting in this death row (01:46:44) solitary cell for the last 25 22 years (01:46:49) and this transform themselves (01:46:52) there we go (01:46:53) they are present they're loving they're (01:46:56) full of compassion (01:46:59) they've taken responsibility of what (01:47:00) they've done (01:47:02) and the state still wants to murder them (01:47:05) for what they did when they were (01:47:06) traumatized 18 years old (01:47:09) but I'm saying that (01:47:11) when I think of my own troubles (01:47:13) sometimes (01:47:14) and start to react to the most minor (01:47:17) irritations (01:47:19) then these guys on death row (01:47:22) and has become these avatars of (01:47:24) compassion (01:47:26) and they are they truly are (01:47:29) it's amazing what people are capable of (01:47:33) thank you so much you're welcome amazing (01:47:35) I think we have time for one possibly (01:47:37) two more will Sato over here and then (01:47:39) we'll hit you up we'll be good hello (01:47:41) Sarah (01:47:42) um (01:47:47) with modern day Psychotherapy (01:47:51) um I'm a therapist and I'm really (01:47:53) interested in decolonizing the idea of (01:47:56) how healing has been perceived by the (01:47:59) field for a long time which is not a (01:48:02) holistic approach basically and so from (01:48:05) a recovery or healing oriented point of (01:48:08) view (01:48:09) where decolonizing the space in a lot of (01:48:12) ways psychedelics are being introduced (01:48:13) and we're seeing a lot of various ways (01:48:17) that it's being practiced right (01:48:19) um so I'm curious about your approach (01:48:21) with regards to (01:48:23) what traditional Psychotherapy deems as (01:48:26) malpractice or re-traumatizing or (01:48:30) so on and so forth what can you tell (01:48:33) people who (01:48:34) are space holders in this in this space (01:48:37) and are conscious of not reintroducing (01:48:40) trauma in a lot of ways but (01:48:43) can introduce more healing um (01:48:47) yeah (01:48:48) um there's this modality that's based on (01:48:50) my work it's called compassionate (01:48:52) inquiry (01:48:53) and it's it's an online course for (01:48:55) psychotherapists and doctors and whoever (01:48:57) wants to take it we've had (01:48:59) 3 000 students in the last three years (01:49:02) in 80 countries it's an online course it (01:49:05) starts three times a year (01:49:06) it's not for the faint-hearted it's (01:49:09) highly demanding (01:49:10) you're gonna work like Heck on yourself (01:49:14) um (01:49:18) and it's (01:49:19) challenging but it's also transformative (01:49:23) and we're not afraid of pain we're not (01:49:25) afraid of trauma I'm not I never were (01:49:27) able to be traumatizing somebody (01:49:31) um I think the people who are afraid of (01:49:33) it or people who haven't dealt with (01:49:34) their own trauma (01:49:36) now is it the case that in the course of (01:49:39) therapy people will experience pain (01:49:42) probably (01:49:44) because all their lives have been (01:49:46) running away from the pain (01:49:51) in I distinguish the number of levels of (01:49:54) compassion and one level of compassion (01:49:57) is the compassion of Truth (01:49:59) where my interest is not whether (01:50:00) somebody feels pain or not but whether (01:50:02) they were ready to face the truth or not (01:50:04) the truth is painful sometimes (01:50:07) it's painful to somebody to all of a (01:50:09) sudden feel (01:50:10) The Emptiness inside them where they (01:50:13) should have been loved (01:50:15) it's painful for them to experience (01:50:19) that their parents didn't accept them (01:50:21) for who they were (01:50:22) so pain is going to come up in therapy (01:50:24) but I'm not afraid of that let's not be (01:50:27) traumatizing the trauma is already there (01:50:31) they've been running away from her all (01:50:32) their lives that's why they're in your (01:50:34) office (01:50:35) no (01:50:39) if I were to use that person for my own (01:50:41) purposes for my ego enhancement (01:50:45) or worse then I can be traumatizing (01:50:48) but to the through conscientious therapy (01:50:52) conscious and conscientious therapy (01:50:54) you're never going to be traumatize (01:50:56) somebody some pain may come up that they (01:50:58) weren't aware of but that's not (01:50:59) re-traumatizing (01:51:00) I'm not I'm not re-wounding them (01:51:04) I'm helping them recognize the wound (01:51:05) that they've been carrying all their (01:51:07) lives I guess I'm more curious about (01:51:09) psychedelic use within the space of (01:51:11) therapy like psychedelics and therapy (01:51:14) and how there's a lot of psychedelics (01:51:17) yeah (01:51:18) I um talked with a woman just this (01:51:22) Monday who went to Peru and did a (01:51:25) Ayahuasca experience and (01:51:27) she's a mother of three single mom she's (01:51:30) got a business and she came back just (01:51:32) discombobulated (01:51:35) the whole thing and why no she's gonna (01:51:37) be okay (01:51:38) she said she was going crazy she's not (01:51:41) going crazy (01:51:43) what's actually happening (01:51:46) she asked the plant (01:51:48) to help her understand your relationship (01:51:50) with her mother (01:51:51) and the plant (01:51:53) took her there (01:51:55) the plan took her to a state of (01:51:57) infantile despair (01:52:00) where she had no words for it even (01:52:02) because there was no words yet (01:52:04) just dark Terror (01:52:07) because the mother didn't know how to (01:52:08) hold her (01:52:09) and she experienced (01:52:12) what's called primitive Agony it's the (01:52:14) agony of the infant that's not held (01:52:20) so yes that came up in the psychical (01:52:22) experience the problem was that the (01:52:24) people she was working with didn't have (01:52:26) the capacity to hold her in that space (01:52:30) so the problem wasn't the Psychedelic (01:52:32) the problem was the context and that (01:52:35) just reinforces the essentiality of (01:52:38) context for psychedelic work there's got (01:52:41) to be a good strong holding environment (01:52:44) and she the people that we're working (01:52:46) with are good people (01:52:47) but they just couldn't hold her Terror (01:52:51) and her pain so she was left alone with (01:52:53) it (01:52:54) so again I'm not afraid of that (01:52:57) as long as I know that uh (01:53:00) context is (01:53:02) is a safe space where somebody can (01:53:05) help somebody understand their (01:53:07) experience (01:53:08) okay (01:53:10) thank you yeah hi I'm Reef Kareem hi (01:53:13) Reef uh I I was with Gabor when he got (01:53:16) fired (01:53:17) on the uh on the Peru retreat that was a (01:53:21) very intense experience (01:53:23) my question is on uh the role uh of (01:53:28) neuroticism and Neurosis in society (01:53:31) specifically in a toxic culture and if (01:53:35) you look at obviously we're all talking (01:53:37) about mental health and people tend to (01:53:40) look especially because I come from the (01:53:42) field they tend to look at the black and (01:53:44) white Trends and statistics of oh well (01:53:47) this is going up and this is going down (01:53:49) or this is getting better or this is (01:53:50) getting worse but I feel like under the (01:53:54) surface in the in the role of of just (01:53:57) all of us in our Human Experience is (01:54:00) this concept of not diagnosable but (01:54:03) somewhere slightly above that but in (01:54:06) pain or suffering and historically it's (01:54:09) been called Neurosis or neuroticism or (01:54:11) you know not quite meeting criteria for (01:54:14) the threshold in this toxic culture how (01:54:17) do you feel uh about the role of (01:54:20) neuroticism growing such that people are (01:54:23) more prone to having a lower threshold (01:54:27) to traumatic experiences and to taking (01:54:31) on more challenges in their life and (01:54:34) more suffering but not meeting criteria (01:54:37) where mental health conditions would be (01:54:40) alerted (01:54:41) well partly we've what I perceive you (01:54:44) talking about is what I call the mythal (01:54:46) normality the mythonormal (01:54:48) like we make this distinction between (01:54:50) the diagnosable ones and the ones are (01:54:52) not diagnosable but (01:54:56) diagnosis are only like the tip of the (01:54:58) iceberg (01:55:00) when somebody's got enough constellation (01:55:02) of traits and behaviors and (01:55:05) dynamics that you can fit them into some (01:55:07) kind of category then we diagnose them (01:55:10) if they're not then we don't (01:55:12) but (01:55:14) I've never lived with anybody with a (01:55:16) mental (01:55:17) illness so-called whether it's (01:55:19) addictions or borderline personality (01:55:21) disorder is so-called (01:55:23) I say so-called or depression or anxiety (01:55:27) what I didn't recognize at least some of (01:55:29) that in myself (01:55:31) the borderline trades (01:55:33) my withdrawal and my marriage (01:55:36) you know (01:55:38) um the depression the anxiety the (01:55:40) addiction I've had them all (01:55:42) and most people I know have some of that (01:55:45) at least (01:55:47) and (01:55:48) in this toxic culture that's only what (01:55:51) you expect (01:55:56) so (01:55:58) I think it would be really healthy to (01:56:00) not to throw out the diagnosis because (01:56:03) that they can be useful but here's a (01:56:06) distinction the diagnosis don't explain (01:56:08) anything (01:56:09) they explain nothing (01:56:11) they describe something (01:56:14) it's useful to describe things (01:56:16) as long as we don't confuse a (01:56:17) description with an explanation (01:56:21) if I said that this entity here is green (01:56:24) with (01:56:27) certain shaped leaves and so on I would (01:56:29) describe it but I haven't (01:56:31) talked to its Essence at all I haven't (01:56:33) explained it at all I've said that I've (01:56:35) been diagnosed with ADHD (01:56:38) so Gobbler's ADHD (01:56:41) how do we know (01:56:42) because he Tunes out and he's tends to (01:56:45) be restless (01:56:47) why does he do not intend to be restless (01:56:49) because he's got ADHD (01:56:51) how do we know that he's got ADHD (01:56:53) because he Tunes out and tends to be (01:56:55) restless (01:56:56) why does he turn other things because (01:56:58) he's got ADHD (01:57:00) reef is got depression how do you know (01:57:02) that depression because his mood is low (01:57:04) and he's (01:57:05) not sleeping well and he's asocial (01:57:10) why is this mood law is not sticking (01:57:12) well on this is because he's got (01:57:14) depression how do we know this with (01:57:15) depression they don't explain a thing (01:57:19) so they describe things (01:57:21) and the explanations (01:57:24) have to do with that person's life in a (01:57:26) certain culture (01:57:27) and (01:57:30) these so-called abnormalities are (01:57:32) actually normal responses (01:57:35) it's an abnormal situation (01:57:38) so the borderline neurosis (01:57:41) is a normal response (01:57:44) of a human being who when they were (01:57:46) young they couldn't trust anybody (01:57:49) so they tend not to trust (01:57:52) they tend to withdraw very quickly (01:57:54) they tend to react they tend to idealize (01:57:58) these are normal responses to what (01:58:00) happened to them (01:58:02) so I don't know if I'm asking the (01:58:03) question but I'm saying is if you got (01:58:04) rid of this idea of pathology (01:58:07) and recognize first of all just how (01:58:08) ubiquitous is all this are we all share (01:58:11) it and why wouldn't we living in this (01:58:13) culture number one and number two that (01:58:15) the diagnosis (01:58:17) are helpful descriptions (01:58:19) but then on explanations and that we're (01:58:22) all on you know we talk about somebody (01:58:23) on the Spectrum (01:58:25) where the who had the hell isn't on the (01:58:27) Spectrum life is a spectrum we're all on (01:58:30) the spectrum of something or other you (01:58:33) know (01:58:34) so (01:58:35) um (01:58:35) [Music] (01:58:37) I'm not so keen on (01:58:41) using the word Neurosis that's the word (01:58:43) that they used in the late 19th century (01:58:45) early 20th it's (01:58:47) I see just people as responding to life (01:58:51) I don't know if that answers the (01:58:52) question but (01:58:54) that's what comes up for me (01:58:56) um (01:58:57) so good (01:59:00) everything is just so relative of wisdom (01:59:04) um (01:59:05) I just I'm my cup is full I'm I'm so (01:59:08) grateful for our time together and for (01:59:10) I'm just so grateful that you were able (01:59:12) to come down and to continue this (01:59:14) friendship and thank you for everybody (01:59:16) that's come out today within Community (01:59:17) is there any message that you want to (01:59:19) leave everybody here who are creators in (01:59:21) some way they're using their creativity (01:59:22) through music through podcasts through (01:59:24) film through media is there any words (01:59:27) that you want to leave with empowering (01:59:29) how we can Infuse these messages in the (01:59:31) discussion that we've had today in our (01:59:33) form of expression (01:59:35) no I I think people will (01:59:39) I mean my guess is the zoon of (01:59:42) creativity and spontaneity and (01:59:44) independent thought in this room that (01:59:46) people will but they just leave you with (01:59:48) a story which is um (01:59:50) from one of the chapters and it's about (01:59:52) Robin Williams actually (01:59:54) um there is this um and it was at (01:59:58) Goodwill Hunting but it was Matt Damon (02:00:00) uh and and and and and actually uh (02:00:03) Williams plays the role of a therapist (02:00:05) and Damon is this very troubled (02:00:07) aggressive character (02:00:10) but inside him he's just yearning to be (02:00:12) loved and at some point (02:00:16) Robin Williams the character he just (02:00:20) I think looks at him and holds him and (02:00:22) says it's not your fault (02:00:25) and Damon just (02:00:27) the demon character just (02:00:30) collapses into tears you know (02:00:33) so if there's one message it's (02:00:35) not your fault okay people gotta get (02:00:39) that stop the blaming of others and in (02:00:43) ourselves and just it's not anybody's (02:00:45) fault it's just how it is when Society (02:00:48) is functioning in a certain way (02:00:51) that's all right (02:00:54) thank you thank you thank you Kat thanks (02:00:58) thank you thank you thanks so much I (02:01:01) guess last last little thing Gabor last (02:01:04) little thing just for the audience thank (02:01:06) you everybody that's been tuning in if (02:01:07) you haven't already checked out the myth (02:01:09) of normal it's available everywhere now (02:01:10) so much wisdom in this again Gabor thank (02:01:13) you so much and until next time be well (02:01:16) [Applause] (02:01:20) [Music] (02:01:25) thank you (02:01:26) [Music]