Young Men Are (Quietly) Giving Up…Here’s Why! (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) this is a critical conversation around (00:00:02) truly the future of humanity but we (00:00:04) don't like to talk about this this (00:00:06) report is absolutely shocking this is a (00:00:09) crisis and young men are struggling so I (00:00:11) sat down with two leading voices on (00:00:13) societal issues to discuss the rise of (00:00:15) millions of lonely addicted men and the (00:00:17) most important question is how do we fix (00:00:20) this so let's start with this graph it (00:00:21) shows that young women are now out (00:00:23) earning young men it is true we have (00:00:25) given women so many tools to achieve but (00:00:28) now boys are being left behind and the (00:00:30) number of males aged 16 to 24 who are (00:00:32) not in education employment has (00:00:34) increased by staggering 40% and the data (00:00:36) I've seen is that when the woman in the (00:00:38) relationship starts making more money (00:00:40) they become twice as likely to get (00:00:41) divorced because traditionally women (00:00:43) seek Partners who have more economic or (00:00:46) social status than they do and emotional (00:00:48) intelligence is the new currency in (00:00:50) dating but these guys were raised not to (00:00:52) be emotionally intelligent but to be a (00:00:54) provider that a lack of male involvement (00:00:56) in kids lives is a big factor leading to (00:00:58) this and once they lose a male role (00:01:00) model they become much more likely to (00:01:01) engage in criminal activity and so we (00:01:03) are just creating a lot of these angry (00:01:05) young single men who are saying well (00:01:07) this is rigged against me we actually (00:01:09) asked some of audience to write in and (00:01:10) this guy Jeffrey wrote in and said my (00:01:12) entire life I have never felt like I was (00:01:14) good enough like I could never earn my (00:01:16) place in society it's devastating but (00:01:18) something that's controversial I got (00:01:20) push back on I think the secret weapon (00:01:21) for men that they don't Leverage is to I (00:01:25) want to hear a woman's perspective on it (00:01:26) honestly what I would do is (00:01:31) this has always blown my mind a little (00:01:33) bit 53% of you that listen to the show (00:01:35) regularly haven't yet subscribed to the (00:01:38) show so could I ask you for a favor (00:01:40) before we start if you like the show and (00:01:41) you like what we do here and you want to (00:01:42) support us the free simple way that you (00:01:44) can do just that is by hitting the (00:01:45) Subscribe button and my commitment to (00:01:47) you is if you do that then I'll do (00:01:49) everything in my power me and my team to (00:01:51) make sure that this show is better for (00:01:52) you every single week we'll listen to (00:01:54) your feedback we'll find the guest that (00:01:56) you want me to speak to and we'll (00:01:57) continue to do what we do thank you so (00:01:59) much (00:02:00) [Music] (00:02:03) Lost (00:02:04) Boys in March 2025 the center of social (00:02:08) justice released this report which is (00:02:11) sent a couple of shock waves across the (00:02:12) UK especially across the media and just (00:02:14) to give you a little bit of a sort of (00:02:17) preface and some context on what this (00:02:19) report says at the start of the report (00:02:21) Andy cook who's the CEO of the report (00:02:23) says we listen to those working on the (00:02:25) front line the teachers the youth (00:02:26) workers the Charities and the parents (00:02:28) who day in day out see the of young (00:02:30) people and in recent years they've been (00:02:32) telling us the same thing something is (00:02:36) going on with our boys and because of (00:02:39) this they wrote this report called The (00:02:40) Lost Boys which looks at all of the the (00:02:41) different facets of why young men are (00:02:43) struggling and in this report they say (00:02:45) boys are struggling in education they're (00:02:47) more likely to take their own lives (00:02:49) they're finding it more difficult to (00:02:51) find stable work and far too often (00:02:54) they're cour in crime the numbers don't (00:02:56) lie something has shifted and we cannot (00:02:58) ignore it any longer it's not just about (00:03:00) about and youate or online influences (00:03:02) these are symptoms not the cause the (00:03:04) deeper truth is that too many boys are (00:03:06) growing up without the guidance (00:03:08) discipline and purpose they need to (00:03:09) survive and there's some frankly (00:03:11) horrific graphs which actually sent the (00:03:14) CEO of my company A lady called Georgie (00:03:16) um into quite an emotional state she she (00:03:19) texted me and told me she was crying (00:03:20) look looking at some of these graphs (00:03:21) which we'll talk about today but this is (00:03:23) a subject that I know both of you know (00:03:25) very very well so I'm Keen to get into (00:03:27) exactly why this is happening and what (00:03:29) we can do about it but the preface this (00:03:30) discussion to understand where you both (00:03:32) come from and the perspective you have (00:03:36) Logan who are you yes and what do you do (00:03:38) I'm a behavioral scientist term dating (00:03:40) coach so that means that I take all the (00:03:42) lessons from the field of Behavioral (00:03:44) Science how we make decisions and then I (00:03:46) apply them to the field of relationship (00:03:48) science which is how love works and so (00:03:50) I'm really passionate about this topic (00:03:53) because for a long time I've found that (00:03:56) wherever I go people say oh I know all (00:03:59) these great single women do you know any (00:04:00) great single guys and I just thought oh (00:04:03) okay maybe that's always been happening (00:04:04) but when I actually dug into the data I (00:04:07) saw that we are truly in a dating crisis (00:04:09) right now and there is a huge mating gap (00:04:11) between the type of men that women are (00:04:13) looking for and the type of men that are (00:04:15) available this is a critical (00:04:17) conversation around truly the future of (00:04:19) humanity because marriage rates are down (00:04:22) that means birth rates are down and so (00:04:24) this conversation is extremely (00:04:27) important and what sort of reference (00:04:29) points do you Drew up on because you've (00:04:31) got some sort of unique access to data (00:04:32) right right so I work at hinge for the (00:04:35) last five years and so I accessed to (00:04:37) tons of data there around how daters are (00:04:39) dating now how daters are dating (00:04:40) differently what sets successful daters (00:04:42) apart and then I also have conducted my (00:04:45) own research for this conversation so I (00:04:47) sent out a survey to thousands of my (00:04:49) newsletter subscribers and people were (00:04:51) very excited to talk about this and I've (00:04:53) conducted a lot of new research that (00:04:55) I'll be sharing for the first time on (00:04:57) this topic um so I make my living at (00:05:00) data and trying to come up with insights (00:05:02) I spent most of my career looking at (00:05:04) data to try and make add shareholder (00:05:06) value and then I have the luxury now (00:05:07) focusing on things I'm really interested (00:05:09) in and I just sort of stumbled upon data (00:05:12) about it reflects that the cohort that (00:05:15) is ascended fastest globally is women (00:05:17) and this is a wonderful thing and a huge (00:05:20) Collective Victory and the group that (00:05:21) has fallen furthest fastest is men in (00:05:24) Western markets and the data was just so (00:05:27) overwhelming and also I was close to (00:05:30) being one of these men I didn't have a (00:05:32) lot of economic or romantic um prospects (00:05:35) when I was a young man but there were (00:05:38) programs and an environment where I (00:05:40) could be successful and I worry that (00:05:44) some of the Temptations of Technology (00:05:45) the economic (00:05:47) Trends uh had they (00:05:49) been where they are now then I could (00:05:52) have very easily ended up as statistic (00:05:55) so I just sort of relate to these (00:05:57) problems I'm Keen to understand from (00:05:59) your perspectives (00:06:00) what do you think like the first Domino (00:06:02) that falls in a young man's life or a (00:06:04) young boy's life that causes the (00:06:06) outcomes we're talking about today like (00:06:07) what is where is the first place to (00:06:09) start so the research I've looked at in (00:06:13) Richard Reeves from the American insute (00:06:15) of boys in medicine good research here (00:06:17) the the point of (00:06:18) failure if you reverse engineered issues (00:06:20) to is when a boy loses a male role model (00:06:24) and that is in the US we have the second (00:06:26) most single family uh parent homes (00:06:28) behind Sweden and what's interesting is (00:06:30) that in single parent homes girls (00:06:32) actually have similar outcomes similar (00:06:34) rates of High School attendance income (00:06:36) rates of self harm boys once they lose a (00:06:39) male role model become much more likely (00:06:41) to be incarcerated engage in criminal (00:06:43) activity harm themselves it ends up that (00:06:45) while being physically stronger boys are (00:06:48) emotionally and mentally much weaker so (00:06:52) the loss of a male role model is I would (00:06:55) argue kind of the first point of failure (00:06:58) that predicts that a kid aort is going (00:07:00) to struggle and that has impacts on (00:07:03) Family Court economic policy and just (00:07:06) general in our general zeis in our (00:07:08) society (00:07:09) where men need to step up if we want (00:07:11) better men we need to be better men we (00:07:13) need to step into that void another one (00:07:15) that Richard Reeves talks about is that (00:07:17) there's not enough men in the education (00:07:19) system so I believe when Tim Waltz was a (00:07:21) teacher one out of three teachers in his (00:07:22) school was a man but now it's like 24% (00:07:25) and so where do kids spend most of their (00:07:27) time in school and who's teaching them (00:07:31) mostly not men and it's and you think (00:07:33) well women can be fantastic teachers and (00:07:35) it's true but after school programs not (00:07:38) as many coaches that t typically are M (00:07:40) male not as much compensation so they (00:07:42) don't get rewarded for being coaches and (00:07:44) if you just think about it logically who (00:07:45) ises a teacher Champion a teacher (00:07:48) Champion is someone that reminds them of (00:07:49) themselves when they were a kid so and (00:07:52) also just look at the there's incredible (00:07:55) bias I would argue against males in (00:07:57) school a boy is twice as likely to be (00:07:59) suspended on a behavior adjusted basis (00:08:01) twice as likely to be suspended for the (00:08:02) exact same infraction is a girl five (00:08:05) times as likely if it's a black boy and (00:08:08) so and once you're suspended twice it (00:08:09) probably means you're not going to (00:08:10) college in addition look at the (00:08:12) behaviors we promote in school sit still (00:08:15) be a pleaser be organized raise your (00:08:18) hand you basically just described a girl (00:08:20) and so and also quite frankly a lot of (00:08:23) the jobs that require tertiary education (00:08:26) attainment there's more women now in law (00:08:28) school and medical school and quite (00:08:29) frankly good for them they're just (00:08:30) better at that they're better students (00:08:32) they deserve to make more money they (00:08:33) deserve it but the reality is it has (00:08:35) huge ramifications when we no longer (00:08:37) have wood Auto or metal shop they've (00:08:39) gone away right so those used to be a (00:08:41) past to do some middle- class jobs (00:08:43) they've been replaced by computer (00:08:45) science and so what are the paths for (00:08:48) the two-thirds of males that aren't (00:08:50) going to end up with a traditional (00:08:51) liberal arts college degree right and (00:08:53) just to add a few more stats to that so (00:08:54) we know that 70% of valid tans in the US (00:08:57) are female and women are much more (00:08:59) likely to be in the top 10% of their (00:09:01) class but then on the SAT men and women (00:09:04) or young men and women earn the same (00:09:06) scores so there's definitely something (00:09:07) happening in schools that is (00:09:10) prioritizing the female experience or (00:09:12) that women are better at that we (00:09:13) definitely want to celebrate the success (00:09:15) of women I think the changes that have (00:09:17) happened over the last 50 years are (00:09:19) incredible and I feel like I'm a (00:09:20) beneficiary of that and so is my (00:09:22) daughter if you look at all of the books (00:09:24) that my daughter was given when she was (00:09:26) born they're about great women in (00:09:28) history you can be anything dream big (00:09:30) little one and so I feel like we have (00:09:32) given women so many tools to achieve and (00:09:35) in many ways those have been manifested (00:09:37) but now boys are being left behind and (00:09:40) so this isn't a zero some game I was (00:09:42) nervous about coming on here because I (00:09:44) thought people would say she's a male (00:09:45) apologist she doesn't see how much women (00:09:48) are still struggling I think everyone is (00:09:50) struggling I think life is hard but (00:09:52) what's happening right now is we need to (00:09:54) have empathy for young men and we need (00:09:56) to bring them up because this isn't just (00:09:58) a problem about young men men and (00:10:00) patriarchy doesn't just hurt women a lot (00:10:03) of people think about the patriarchy as (00:10:05) something that prizes men and hurts (00:10:07) women but when there's a very narrow (00:10:09) definition of men everyone is hurt by (00:10:11) that and that's all the research that (00:10:13) I've done is over and over seeing women (00:10:16) feel like they are not enough good men (00:10:19) to date and men feel like they're being (00:10:21) held to a ridiculous standard of holding (00:10:24) both sides of the coin being feminine (00:10:26) and (00:10:27) masculine it turns out as you were (00:10:28) speaking I was looking at the stats (00:10:29) around fatherless homes and it turns out (00:10:31) that there has been a significant (00:10:32) increase in the amount of young boys (00:10:34) being raised without a father present (00:10:36) about 25% live without a biological step (00:10:40) or adoptive father according to the (00:10:42) National Fatherhood Initiative in the US (00:10:44) has the world's highest rate of children (00:10:46) living in a single parent household and (00:10:49) 92% of the time that's with the mother (00:10:51) alone and in 1968 only 11% of children (00:10:54) lived without lived with only their (00:10:56) mother compared to 21% in 2020 so that's (00:11:01) doubled in the last 50 odd (00:11:04) years which is pretty pretty staggering (00:11:06) and then obviously the consequence of (00:11:08) that as Scott described is that (00:11:09) individuals from farther absent homes (00:11:12) were 300% more likely to carry drugs to (00:11:15) carry guns to deal drugs um and all of (00:11:18) and there's this huge plethora of mental (00:11:20) health consequences if you don't have a (00:11:22) father in the home I mean what do we do (00:11:23) about that and like where are the (00:11:24) fathers yeah where are the role where (00:11:26) are they (00:11:27) going well it's it's complicated (00:11:30) there's there's male abandonment there's (00:11:32) just no getting around it but also going (00:11:34) back to Family Court sometimes the (00:11:37) courts in the finan you know our economy (00:11:39) make it difficult for a man to stay (00:11:41) involved in the kids's lives and (00:11:43) also um you know family courts getting (00:11:46) better at saying all right the kids I (00:11:49) mean just a personal anecdote I uh have (00:11:52) a friend who recently has gone through (00:11:53) divorce two daughters very much wants to (00:11:55) be involved in their lives they're 13 (00:11:58) and 15 year old girl and quite frankly (00:12:00) dad's there on the weekends and they got (00:12:02) their own thing going on and they don't (00:12:04) necessarily make dad a priority and (00:12:07) dad's not around for what I call the (00:12:09) garbage time and that is what I found (00:12:11) with my boys is the moments of (00:12:13) serendipity and connection happen (00:12:15) randomly when you're taking them to (00:12:17) school when you're out in the back you (00:12:20) know jumping around or playing whatever (00:12:21) it is these garbage moments and when (00:12:24) you're not in the household for whatever (00:12:26) reason there's just there isn't that (00:12:28) much garbage time and I think slowly but (00:12:30) surely they lose sometimes connection (00:12:33) with their kid there's also there's (00:12:35) something weird going on I'm curious (00:12:36) Logan if youve got date on this but you (00:12:40) have a one-year-old daughter right (00:12:42) you're G to be amazed when my 14y old (00:12:46) boy had a Halloween party and the boys (00:12:48) are like cute they're dopes they're boys (00:12:51) there's some 14-y old girls who look (00:12:53) like they could be the junior senator (00:12:54) from Pennsylvania they're 5'1 they're (00:12:57) articulate hello Mr Galloway how are you (00:12:59) with a love home the boys are like I (00:13:00) don't know and and biologically girls (00:13:04) mature faster their prefrontal cortex is (00:13:07) 18 months ahead of a boys an (00:13:09) 18-year-old girl or woman is competing (00:13:11) against a 16 and a half year old when (00:13:13) she's competing against an 18yearold and (00:13:15) they're even finding that it's getting (00:13:18) worse that women or girls are starting (00:13:20) to menstruate earlier and boys testicles (00:13:22) are descending later so the Gap in (00:13:25) maturity biological Gap they think might (00:13:28) even be growing and they don't know if (00:13:29) it's p (00:13:30) pesticides but when I meet my uh eighth (00:13:34) graders colleagues there's a huge (00:13:37) difference between yeah between us (00:13:40) between the boys and the girls and (00:13:42) Richard's one of Richard's suggestions (00:13:44) is that we red shirt boys that we hold (00:13:46) them a year back that boys start (00:13:48) kindergarten at 6 whereas girls start at (00:13:50) five so the research in the UK shows (00:13:53) that 70% of girls are ready to start (00:13:56) school at age five but many fewer boys (00:13:59) boys are capable of starting at that age (00:14:01) in terms of Readiness and so if you were (00:14:04) to hold boys back then they might be on (00:14:06) more equal playing field for those (00:14:08) critical moments of four to five of 13 (00:14:10) to 14 where the brains really develop at (00:14:13) a different (00:14:14) stage I want to talk about that sort of (00:14:16) Early Education experience and how it (00:14:18) can be adapted but also just like if the (00:14:19) environment of the classroom is right (00:14:20) for boys as we were talking about the (00:14:22) point about fathers at listeners as well (00:14:23) I found this graph which is also pretty (00:14:25) shocking and it it goes into what you (00:14:27) something you said Scott it basically (00:14:28) shows that the absence of a father on a (00:14:32) boy causes depressive symptoms but the (00:14:36) absence of a father on a young girl (00:14:38) doesn't cause the same depressive (00:14:40) symptoms which means that the absence of (00:14:42) a father for a boy drastically increases (00:14:45) their chance of being depressed whereas (00:14:47) if for a girl it doesn't there's a lot (00:14:49) of other graphs that look like that in (00:14:51) terms of women and young girls are just (00:14:53) actually a lot more resilient in (00:14:55) childhood so if you are in foster care (00:14:57) as a young woman you have less negative (00:14:59) outcomes than young men and so there's (00:15:01) this theory in parenting of is your a (00:15:03) child an orchid or a dandelion and so (00:15:06) the Orchid really needs very particular (00:15:08) situations to grow they need a certain (00:15:10) amount of light they need to be watered (00:15:11) in a particular way and they'll thrive (00:15:13) in some situations and they will not (00:15:15) thrive in others whereas a dandelion can (00:15:17) really survive in many situations and so (00:15:20) women young girls tend to be more (00:15:22) dandelion in childhood and so that's why (00:15:25) when you have a boy and a girl both in (00:15:27) negative situations the boy is more (00:15:30) negatively impacted boys are just weaker (00:15:33) there's a crazy stat I read that two uh (00:15:37) 15-year-olds a boy and a girl both (00:15:39) sexually molested and to be clear (00:15:41) they're equally heinous crimes but the (00:15:43) boy who's sexually molested is six to 10 (00:15:45) times more likely to kill himself later (00:15:46) in life it ends up that boys are just (00:15:49) less (00:15:51) resilient do you think there's somehow (00:15:53) more of a stigma there like I wonder why (00:15:55) that's talk about it uncomfortable feel (00:16:00) there's inia there's a lack I mean I (00:16:02) think just until a few years ago the (00:16:04) social incentives were to never speak (00:16:06) about it right I was on lwis house (00:16:08) podcast and he just openly said I was (00:16:11) sexually abused as a child and it was so (00:16:12) shocking for me wow to hear this big (00:16:15) handsome guy yeah I don't think he would (00:16:16) have said it 10 or 20 years ago I think (00:16:18) people would have assumed that it was (00:16:20) his fault it made him less of a man so I (00:16:23) I think a lot of that has hopefully (00:16:25) gotten better but we just have to (00:16:27) acknowledge boys (00:16:30) mentally and emotionally are weaker than (00:16:33) girls Lewis H didn't admit that until a (00:16:36) couple of years ago is that right so (00:16:38) he's lived with that his whole life and (00:16:40) wow it wasn't until he was I think (00:16:42) having dysfunction his relationships and (00:16:43) a few other things had happened that he (00:16:45) decided he wanted to say it publicly for (00:16:46) the first time which again feeds into (00:16:49) your point we actually um asked some of (00:16:50) our audience to write in and one of the (00:16:52) people that wrote in was a teacher in a (00:16:55) primary SL preschool and she said to me (00:16:58) she was an Anon teacher in Germany she (00:17:00) says every year it seems like more and (00:17:03) more children always boys have this new (00:17:06) energy to destroy the classroom dynamics (00:17:08) these boys almost always have two things (00:17:10) in common a lack of boundaries at home (00:17:12) an unsupervised unlimited access to all (00:17:14) kinds of content on the internet EG porn (00:17:17) their perception of what is okay and (00:17:19) what is Right becomes completely (00:17:21) distorted I have tried so many things (00:17:23) and every year it's becoming an even (00:17:25) bigger challenge (00:17:29) young boys in school so one proposal is (00:17:32) to delay education for boys put them in (00:17:35) education later is the classroom itself (00:17:38) a problem like they're sitting in school (00:17:40) listening to someone speak at you (00:17:42) someone proposed to me on this podcast (00:17:44) before that boys need more sort of (00:17:45) practical play and the classroom isn't (00:17:47) designed for that I wasn't sure if that (00:17:49) was well in in single sex boy school (00:17:53) they end up with double the amount of (00:17:54) recess ton and that is they they have I (00:17:57) I equate boys to dogs a happy dog is a (00:18:00) tired dog and if it's not tired if it (00:18:02) doesn't get to run it's going to cause (00:18:04) trouble and I feel the same way about (00:18:06) boys so in these schools where they (00:18:09) decide what's best for the boys there's (00:18:10) usually more exercise and more free play (00:18:13) and more rough housing co-ed schools and (00:18:16) you're also seeing I think with boys I (00:18:19) mean there's just (00:18:21) we by even acknowledging that men play a (00:18:25) critical Ro role in boys' lives a few (00:18:27) years ago that was seen as sexist what (00:18:29) you mean what you're saying moms can't (00:18:31) do this and I can just tell you there (00:18:33) are certain moments when my partner (00:18:36) needs me to weigh in I don't know if (00:18:38) it's the depth of my voice my physical (00:18:40) size the way they relate to me the fact (00:18:42) that I'm not you need (00:18:46) Dad or that's what I found especially (00:18:48) with boys they need almost like that (00:18:51) that that not physical (00:18:53) intimidation but it's almost like they (00:18:55) begin tuning out their mom over time I (00:18:57) mean they're incredibly close to their (00:18:58) mother that looked to her for n ing when (00:18:59) they really have a problem I find the go (00:19:00) to Mom but they will constantly test the (00:19:03) boundaries constantly and I think a lot (00:19:07) of a lot of single mothers quite frankly (00:19:09) with boys just can't keep a lid on that (00:19:13) kid they can't control the kid so and I (00:19:16) think you're finding at schools when (00:19:18) there's no male kind of I don't know (00:19:21) involvement or that that I don't know (00:19:24) what I'll call physical presence and (00:19:26) then you add on this dopa (00:19:29) uh machine that they get used to (00:19:31) squeezing a dopa bag a hundred times a (00:19:33) day as they need it and then you take (00:19:35) the dopa bag away they're just more (00:19:37) prone to emotional outbursts I'm curious (00:19:40) if you've done any research around why (00:19:42) that is that emotional Outburst more (00:19:45) common among boys than girls I haven't (00:19:49) done that research but I am imagining (00:19:50) that there's moms out there that are (00:19:52) raising Boys on their own and they might (00:19:54) be like yes it is hard but what do I do (00:19:56) right and so for that boy who isn't (00:19:58) taught a lot of guys in school and isn't (00:20:01) in the Boy Scouts which doesn't exist (00:20:03) anymore or doesn't have Big Brothers Big (00:20:06) Sisters like what does that Mom do so (00:20:09) with that you talk brought a Boy Scouts (00:20:11) in America there's there's Scouts for (00:20:12) America and it can be boys and girls (00:20:14) right but Girl Scouts have their own (00:20:15) single sex but boy scouts aren't allowed (00:20:17) to have their own single sex so the (00:20:20) question is all right you know what do (00:20:22) you do and I think that we need a (00:20:23) societal zeist that says immediately if (00:20:26) there's no longer a male involved we (00:20:28) have to get other men involved and (00:20:29) acknowledge that that's not being sexist (00:20:32) that that's you know that that's (00:20:34) important that you get men involved and (00:20:35) I think so I came from a single parent (00:20:38) household raised in by a single (00:20:40) immigrant mother who lived and died a (00:20:41) secretary light of my life as soon as my (00:20:43) dad was gone and then he had to move (00:20:45) away for work she got other men involved (00:20:47) in my life and I had wonderful men (00:20:50) involved in my life I had a stock Brer (00:20:52) neighbor down the hall came in with his (00:20:55) girlfriend and said you want to go hor (00:20:56) horseback riding you take me horseback (00:20:58) riding I don't don't know if men would (00:20:59) be comfortable doing that uh in today's (00:21:02) age so getting men involved in their (00:21:05) lives after school programs Boy Scouts I (00:21:08) had a lot of wonderful men I used to go (00:21:09) camping you know and there were men (00:21:12) everywhere involved in my life and I I (00:21:15) worri that a lot of those institutions (00:21:17) yeah and also there's a reticence and a (00:21:20) hesitance for men to get involved in a (00:21:22) boy's life that isn't theirs for fear (00:21:23) they're going to be perceived as (00:21:26) something's wrong with them I was (00:21:28) thinking that so if we have less men in (00:21:29) the home raising the children and then (00:21:31) we go to school and the stat says that (00:21:33) 72% of teachers in middle school are (00:21:35) women as well there's no men at school (00:21:37) either it's no wonder that boys are (00:21:40) struggling so severely at such a young (00:21:42) early early age for so many reasons (00:21:44) because one would assume that they're (00:21:46) being (00:21:48) socialized in the same way as (00:21:50) girls I'm seeing I've got a mother at (00:21:53) home don't have a father I've got women (00:21:55) at school don't have male teachers I (00:21:58) mean that's a controversial thing to say (00:22:00) I'm sure it used to be but I think (00:22:01) people are waking up a little bit now we (00:22:03) need more male teachers there's more (00:22:04) there's more female fighter pilots per (00:22:07) capita the male kindergarten teachers (00:22:09) there's just there's an absence there (00:22:12) are some boys not some there are (00:22:13) millions of boys in America whose first (00:22:15) male role model is a prison guard and (00:22:18) there just no men in their lives after (00:22:20) school programs being cancelled no women (00:22:23) very very few men K through 12 dad's not (00:22:26) around there are there are Community (00:22:28) there are literally communities you read (00:22:30) articles about it where it's like where (00:22:32) are the men yeah that's so I'm trying to (00:22:34) figure out where are (00:22:35) they online doesn't look like they're in (00:22:40) work they're not in college the reality (00:22:43) is they're just AR for a lot of reasons (00:22:46) a host of reasons male a lack of male (00:22:48) involvement in kids lives is a big big (00:22:51) factor leading this there are other (00:22:52) factors there's socioeconomic factors (00:22:54) there's biological factors there's a (00:22:57) lack of vocational training there's (00:22:59) Outsourcing of many of the jobs that (00:23:01) made a a man's path to the middle class (00:23:04) viable you want to talk about the UK a (00:23:06) big problem is a lack of growth yeah (00:23:08) there's just not there's not a lot of (00:23:10) income opportunities for a young man (00:23:12) who's not exceptional and what we've (00:23:14) seen in the US is essentially if you (00:23:16) look at our economic policies and (00:23:18) college it's never been better to be (00:23:20) remarkable like if you're in the top 10% (00:23:23) if you're high school class you're going (00:23:25) to make more money than the top 10% did (00:23:28) 102 30 if you end up at Google you're (00:23:31) you're going to make a kid at Google (00:23:33) who's amazing computer science the can (00:23:34) make millions of dollars by the time the (00:23:36) 30 but I can prove to every one of us (00:23:38) mathematically that 99% of our children (00:23:40) are not in the top 1% and our economic (00:23:42) policies have basically said that school (00:23:45) and college is meant to identify a super (00:23:49) class of 1centers that we're going to (00:23:51) try and turn into billionaires instead (00:23:53) of figuring out the infrastructure in (00:23:54) the programs to ensure the bottom 90 (00:23:56) have a shot of being at the top 10 and (00:23:58) one of the staff is just (00:24:00) around uh College acceptance when I (00:24:02) applied to UCLA the acceptance rate was (00:24:03) 76% now it's 9% I was unremarkable for (00:24:08) whatever reason prefrontal cortex single (00:24:09) mother whatever you want to call it but (00:24:11) back then they had the mission and the (00:24:14) charge to let in unremarkable kids and (00:24:17) that's no longer the case because (00:24:19) America's superpowers are optimism and (00:24:22) we all believe our kids in that top 1% (00:24:25) and the reality is they're not or people (00:24:27) think I like an economy where you can (00:24:30) make a billion dollars because that's (00:24:31) going to be me one day so they have (00:24:34) ignored the fact that we are crowding (00:24:36) more and more prosperity and opportunity (00:24:38) into the remarkable and I for me it (00:24:40) comes down to what is what do we want in (00:24:42) America in UK do we want a super class (00:24:44) of billionaires or do we want a society (00:24:46) in an operating system that gives (00:24:48) unremarkable people a shot of being in (00:24:50) the top (00:24:51) 10% uh it's become win or take all and (00:24:54) we have purposely created a set of (00:24:57) Economic and education policies that (00:25:00) Crow a massive amount of prosperity into (00:25:02) the top 1% and we have opted for it (00:25:05) because we believe we have a shot at (00:25:07) being in that top 1% I love that because (00:25:10) I think the winner takes all applies to (00:25:12) a lot of different things so I bet the (00:25:14) top 10% of Americans now are healthier (00:25:16) than they've ever been while the rest of (00:25:18) the country has never been healthy best (00:25:19) healthare in the world if you're in the (00:25:20) top 10% yeah or in marriages the top (00:25:23) marriages today are the best marriages (00:25:25) of all time yet we have declining (00:25:28) marriage rates so we're nearing the (00:25:29) lowest rate of marriage that we've ever (00:25:31) had in American history so most people (00:25:33) are or fewer people are getting married (00:25:35) but if you're you know two college (00:25:37) graduates who get married in your 30s (00:25:39) you might have an even stronger Bond (00:25:41) than people in the past but that is a (00:25:44) small group at the top marriages become (00:25:46) a luxury item yeah if you're in the top (00:25:48) Quintel of income earning households (00:25:50) you're you're 75% get married if you're (00:25:53) in the bottom quintile only 25 if you're (00:25:56) in the lower quintile of income in men (00:25:59) only one in four chance of getting (00:26:00) married and this has huge impact on our (00:26:03) society because we know that married (00:26:05) people are healthier they're wealthier (00:26:07) they live longer when couples are (00:26:09) married they actually have lower rates (00:26:11) of child poverty and so this has huge (00:26:13) implications for our society if we're (00:26:15) having fewer marriages especially when (00:26:17) you think about having fewer (00:26:19) babies I am I want to get into dating (00:26:21) and and marriage and love on all those (00:26:23) things I one of the things that really (00:26:24) shocked me as I Was preparing for this (00:26:25) conversation was this graph MH because (00:26:28) this isn't the narrative that we hear (00:26:30) can you both see this one this is the (00:26:32) reverse gender gap oh yeah gender pay (00:26:34) Gap graph and it shows that young women (00:26:36) and out out earning young men that's not (00:26:40) what I heard in terms of like if I log (00:26:42) onto social media we've been trying to (00:26:43) fight the gender pay Gap but to see that (00:26:46) young men are now falling behind both in (00:26:48) education both in unemployment young men (00:26:50) face higher unemployment nearly twice (00:26:52) the rate of women looking at the early (00:26:54) developmental stats this graph was (00:26:56) horrifying I like actually couldn't (00:26:58) believe that was true (00:26:59) that young young boys are struggling so (00:27:01) much in education but then to see also (00:27:02) that it's reflected in so that graph (00:27:04) shows that boys age 16 to 24 are making (00:27:08) 10% Less in full-time employment than (00:27:11) women and so it is true that we're (00:27:12) seeing a reverse income graph but what (00:27:15) we do need to talk about is even when (00:27:17) women make more in their 20s that (00:27:19) changes around age 30 they have kids (00:27:22) when they have kids right it's like this (00:27:23) meteorite hits and there's this huge (00:27:26) burden placed on women and I think (00:27:28) that's a big part of the conversation (00:27:29) that we'll talk about when we talk about (00:27:30) dating is women still feel like they (00:27:33) have to have you know do all the (00:27:35) household chores and raise the kids but (00:27:37) suddenly they have to earn a full-time (00:27:39) income too and so so many of the gender (00:27:41) roles are changing and so yes that graph (00:27:43) is true we have seen since 2020 that (00:27:46) there's a shift but I don't want to just (00:27:48) say oh women are making more in (00:27:50) perpetuity because as soon as there's (00:27:51) kids involved they pay the price you (00:27:54) know you said that women feel the need (00:27:56) to then also earn a career and those (00:27:59) things where did that come from well (00:28:00) there's this idea of hypergamy so (00:28:02) traditionally women seek Partners who (00:28:05) have more economic or social status than (00:28:08) they do and for most of human history (00:28:10) this worked because men had the (00:28:12) resources and so there was sort of this (00:28:13) Arrangement where women could often (00:28:16) marry someone who is more educated or (00:28:18) earned more but over the last 50 years (00:28:21) that's really changed and so what I'm (00:28:22) seeing in my work working one-on-one (00:28:24) with women is that when they say that (00:28:26) there aren't enough good guys to go (00:28:28) around that's actually true so we now (00:28:30) have this huge mating Gap where we have (00:28:33) these high- performing High earning (00:28:34) women that have done the work and gone (00:28:36) to therapy and work out and they're (00:28:38) ready for their great partner but (00:28:41) they're not able to find enough guys who (00:28:44) are available and If this is a problem (00:28:46) now with the women I work with in their (00:28:48) 30s we are going to be facing a much (00:28:50) more severe crisis 10 15 years from now (00:28:54) so currently 60% of college enrollment (00:28:57) is women but soon it's going to be for (00:28:59) every two women that graduate it'll be (00:29:01) one man so that means half of those (00:29:03) women will not have a guy who graduated (00:29:06) from college and so this is a crisis (00:29:09) because these women are saying okay if (00:29:12) you cannot be the provider then you need (00:29:14) to be offering more emotional (00:29:17) intelligence is the new currency in (00:29:19) dating but these guys were raised not to (00:29:22) be emotionally intelligent not to give (00:29:24) emotional support but to be a provider (00:29:27) and so they've been chasing this lion (00:29:29) I'm going to hunt for this Lion of being (00:29:30) a provider but suddenly they're told you (00:29:32) need to hunt for a tiger which is (00:29:34) emotional intelligence they don't have (00:29:36) the skills to do that and so women have (00:29:39) raised the bar in terms of what they (00:29:41) need from men while men are continuously (00:29:43) falling (00:29:44) behind yeah there's there's a lot there (00:29:47) there's some Nuance around the pay thing (00:29:48) so the data I've seen is that women (00:29:50) under the age of 30 in urban areas are (00:29:52) now making more money but to your point (00:29:54) the moment they have kids where (00:29:56) Corporate America has really failed is (00:29:57) it hasn't figured out out a way to (00:29:59) maintain a woman's professional (00:30:00) trajectory once she decides to deploy (00:30:01) her ovaries and have kits and there's (00:30:04) some data saying okay two-thirds of (00:30:06) divorce can be reverse engineered to the (00:30:07) man starting to make less money if if (00:30:10) when the woman in the relationship (00:30:12) starts making more money they become (00:30:14) twice as likely to get divorced three (00:30:15) times as likely to use ED drugs because (00:30:17) the guy loses a sense of purpose and (00:30:20) self-esteem what gets lost in that data (00:30:23) is the reality is if a woman is stepping (00:30:25) up and stepping into the economic void (00:30:27) and being more econom (00:30:29) ially uh being a greater economic (00:30:31) contributor then logically it would make (00:30:33) sense that men need to step up (00:30:35) logistically and I think what a lot of (00:30:37) women are saying is like okay I'm not (00:30:40) getting anything I'm not you're no (00:30:41) longer a provider and by the way you (00:30:43) haven't filled that void you hadn't made (00:30:45) up the Delta so there's some there's (00:30:47) some nuan around it what what also I (00:30:49) think is important to say is that if (00:30:51) women are better students and showing (00:30:54) the discipline and the skills to go to (00:30:56) college in an information economy and (00:30:57) making more money (00:30:58) then okay good on them just as for (00:31:02) whatever reason men made more money (00:31:04) maybe it wasn't fair but you know it's (00:31:06) not a crime against humanity if women (00:31:08) have the skills to make more money what (00:31:10) happens though is the second order (00:31:12) effects that you're talking about and (00:31:13) that is we don't like to talk about this (00:31:16) 75% of women say that economic viability (00:31:19) is hugely important in a may only 25% of (00:31:22) men for men it's not a criteria for (00:31:24) women it is and Chris Williamson of the (00:31:27) modern wisdom podcast he has has this (00:31:28) great Stat or it calls out the high (00:31:30) heels effect and that is 50% of women (00:31:32) say they won't date a man shorter than (00:31:34) them I'm curious what you think but I (00:31:36) think it's more like 80% I think it's (00:31:37) embarrassing thing to say because just (00:31:39) instinctively women feel like they'll be (00:31:41) vulnerable during gestation and they (00:31:43) want someone they think physically could (00:31:44) protect them I just think it's hardwired (00:31:46) into them even if they don't know it (00:31:48) women metaphorically are getting taller (00:31:50) every year and women made horizontally (00:31:53) and up and Men horizontally and down and (00:31:55) when the pool of horizontal and up keep (00:31:58) shrinking they just have so this notion (00:32:01) a ton of great women where are the men (00:32:04) or there's no men there's a lot of men (00:32:06) just not men they'd want to date right (00:32:08) and then you speedball it with the guys (00:32:11) who are in the top 10% can engage in (00:32:13) Porsche polygamy they can get a date (00:32:16) every goddamn night which does not (00:32:18) encourage long-term or very good (00:32:20) behavior so the guys they all want are (00:32:23) not incented to enter into long-term (00:32:25) relationships and the bottom half of men (00:32:28) are literally shut out of the mating (00:32:31) market and we always kind of we always (00:32:34) kind of and this goes to your bwick kind (00:32:36) of portray men as the Predators and the (00:32:38) idiots and the they just got their act (00:32:40) together there's something strange going (00:32:42) on in that is online dating when a woman (00:32:44) a woman can go out with a guy a high (00:32:46) status male and I'll put forward this (00:32:48) thesis and I want you to respond to it (00:32:50) she can have sex with him which gives (00:32:53) her the impression that's her weight (00:32:55) class for a relationship but he's not (00:32:57) interested in a relation ship and then (00:32:59) she basically decides the bottom 90 are (00:33:02) no longer in her weight class and you (00:33:04) can't tell a woman to lower expectations (00:33:07) but the reality is and what the data (00:33:11) I've seen on dating apps is that all of (00:33:13) the women want the same few guys and (00:33:16) they shut out the rest yeah okay so (00:33:18) there's a few things I'll respond to (00:33:20) there so one going back to the income (00:33:23) graph I want to just call out that yes (00:33:25) right now in a few Urban markets women (00:33:27) are making more than men so women in DC (00:33:30) in New York under 30 are making more (00:33:33) than men on average but in most (00:33:35) situations men are still making more (00:33:36) than women but we're talking about a (00:33:38) projection going back to the dating (00:33:41) research so yes it's exactly as you (00:33:42) described what we have right now is (00:33:45) there's fewer and fewer men that are (00:33:47) hypergamous mates for women so if (00:33:49) there's a much smaller pool of guys then (00:33:52) what you have is you have a bunch of (00:33:54) women competing for the same men and (00:33:56) then a bunch of guys getting ignored but (00:33:59) what I also see is that those top guys (00:34:01) are having a hard time deciding so I (00:34:04) feel like in my coaching practice as a (00:34:05) dating coach I'm working with a lot of (00:34:07) women who say what do I do I've changed (00:34:09) my profile the way you said I should I (00:34:11) took your class but I still feel like (00:34:12) there's just not enough great guys and (00:34:15) then I work with these CEO men who are (00:34:17) having such a hard time choosing and so (00:34:19) I think we really have this exacerbated (00:34:21) problem where so many women are (00:34:24) competing for the same men and then a (00:34:26) bunch of guys are getting ignored and (00:34:28) then what ends up happening is where do (00:34:30) those guys go and they go online that's (00:34:33) what you see they go to porn they go to (00:34:34) porn or they go to Reddit I mean I love (00:34:36) Reddit but they're really going to some (00:34:38) of these redpilled communities and so (00:34:40) what you're seeing now is just men (00:34:42) really opting out of society so when you (00:34:44) go back to that Stat one in seven young (00:34:46) men in the UK is neat not an employment (00:34:49) education or training they have just (00:34:51) opted out and as Scott says there's (00:34:54) nothing scarier than a single man a (00:34:57) young single man and so we are just (00:35:00) creating a lot of these angry young (00:35:02) single men who are saying well this is (00:35:04) rigged against me and so that's why I am (00:35:07) worried about the rise of people like (00:35:08) Andrew Tate and if we wonder where are (00:35:10) the dads where are the men well men are (00:35:12) finding these father figures but they're (00:35:15) finding them online and they're not the (00:35:17) father figures that I would choose for (00:35:19) the majority of men and so I'm really (00:35:21) worried about this because I feel like (00:35:23) women are saying guys you need to step (00:35:25) up because I can provide and I don't (00:35:27) need from you and guys are not prepared (00:35:30) to rise to the occasion what what are (00:35:32) women looking for he Scott talked about (00:35:34) height yeah so I would say you know I (00:35:37) work at hinge but I do think that apps (00:35:39) have perpetuated this issue around (00:35:41) height because if you can set your (00:35:43) height filter to something then you (00:35:44) might set it higher and then it's as if (00:35:46) you have the dating app is a club and (00:35:49) you're literally having bouncers that (00:35:51) prevent a bunch of guys from even (00:35:52) getting into the club so many women in (00:35:55) the US set their height filters at 6 (00:35:57) feet but but only 14% of men in the US (00:36:00) are six feet or taller so what happens (00:36:03) to the other 86% of men and women are (00:36:05) saying where's my guy it's like well you (00:36:08) he's not even showing up on your app and (00:36:09) so a huge thing that I push women to do (00:36:12) is to change their height filters and (00:36:14) just say there is nothing that proves (00:36:16) that you're going to have a successful (00:36:18) long-term relationship if the guy is (00:36:20) higher I'm married to a short King I (00:36:22) love it I feel like I really found this (00:36:25) Gem and I think that so many women are (00:36:28) missing out on great potential partners (00:36:30) because of things like height Scott's (00:36:32) Point as well about they will date one (00:36:34) of the men in the top 10% yeah sleep (00:36:36) with him potentially and then that kind (00:36:38) of adjusts their standards and they (00:36:40) expect all other men to meet that (00:36:41) standard but there isn't just there (00:36:42) isn't enough men to meet that standard (00:36:43) is that I haven't specifically heard (00:36:45) that I mean there is a lot of evidence (00:36:47) around a sort of mating that people sort (00:36:49) of have an internal sense of how (00:36:51) attractive they are and that they end up (00:36:53) with someone similar to that but aort of (00:36:55) mating is different than hypergamy which (00:36:57) is really this idea as Scott said that (00:36:59) women tend to date horizontally and up (00:37:02) and men date horizontally and down so if (00:37:04) you have two-thirds of women who are (00:37:06) college grads and onethird of college (00:37:09) grads who are men and some of them are (00:37:11) going to date women without college (00:37:12) degrees you truly do have this dating (00:37:15) crisis where there's just not enough men (00:37:17) to meet this hypergamous mating again (00:37:20) you can't tell women to lower their (00:37:22) expectations but this is the reality (00:37:24) when you ask a man if you could have a (00:37:26) woman who had 80% of everything you (00:37:28) wanted 75% say yeah I'm on board when (00:37:31) you say to a woman a man has 80% of what (00:37:34) you want 75% say that's that's not (00:37:37) enough but if you but but even look at (00:37:39) the media right right right what does (00:37:41) the media tell a woman to do he's out (00:37:43) but he didn't open your door he's not (00:37:45) nice to his parent you walk walk right (00:37:48) out on that man like it's literally (00:37:50) every piece of media is you don't need (00:37:52) him you're a strong independent woman (00:37:54) pull the rip cord you're out and (00:37:58) it is the the the basic kind of (00:38:02) communication around this is you are a (00:38:04) strong independent powerful woman that (00:38:06) is wonderful and quite frankly you don't (00:38:09) need the imperfect man and uh they're (00:38:13) just not they're just not connecting I (00:38:15) read that on Tinder a man of average (00:38:19) attractiveness has to swipe right 200 (00:38:21) times to get one coffee and then four of (00:38:25) those five coffees will ghost him (00:38:28) they will they will decide they don't (00:38:31) want to meet him or they won't show up (00:38:33) that means a guy of average (00:38:34) attractiveness has to swipe right a (00:38:37) thousand times to get one coffee now (00:38:39) what does that tell that guy women don't (00:38:41) value me women make me feel rejected and (00:38:45) then they go online and they meet they (00:38:47) see these misogynists telling them it's (00:38:49) not your fault and these men become much (00:38:52) more prone to misogynistic content much (00:38:54) more prone to nationalistic content (00:38:56) blaming other people for the lack of (00:38:58) Economic Opportunity they start (00:39:00) sequestering from society I worry that (00:39:02) we are literally evolving a new species (00:39:05) of asexual asocial male and if a man by (00:39:08) the age of 30 hasn't either lived with (00:39:11) someone or married someone there's a one (00:39:13) in three chance he's going to have a (00:39:14) substance abuse problem wow in addition (00:39:16) it goes so much deeper than that (00:39:19) because if they don't develop the (00:39:22) skills you know the reason romantic (00:39:23) comedies are 2 hours and not 15 minutes (00:39:25) is this [ __ ] is hard like finding an (00:39:27) attractive intelligent woman generally (00:39:29) speaking 75% of people who've been (00:39:31) married longer than 30 years say in the (00:39:33) beginning one was much more interested (00:39:34) than the other and it was almost always (00:39:35) the man women are women are much (00:39:38) choosier the basic the basis of (00:39:40) evolution is seed trying to get (00:39:41) everywhere men and women to playing a (00:39:44) much finer filter to to select the (00:39:46) strongest smartest and fastest speed so (00:39:48) men need an environment to demonstrate (00:39:50) excellence and you hear these woman talk (00:39:52) about he was kind he was good at work I (00:39:55) like the way he smelled he was funny (00:39:57) where do men demonstrate Excellence when (00:40:01) they're not going to college they're not (00:40:02) going into an office because of remote (00:40:04) work where do they have they're not (00:40:06) going to church they're not going to (00:40:07) Temple where does a woman have the (00:40:10) opportunity to fall in love other than (00:40:13) these Baseline metrics and you were (00:40:16) talking (00:40:17) about women say you've seen these Tik (00:40:19) toks over $100,000 that's not (00:40:21) unreasonable and over 6 feet that's 2.2% (00:40:25) of the male (00:40:26) population so where where do they fall (00:40:28) in love where can a man demonstrate (00:40:31) Excellence it used to be go to Temple (00:40:33) seven single women seven single men and (00:40:35) they kind of pair it off and worked it (00:40:36) out and online dating similar to online (00:40:39) e-commerce online rentals it's created a (00:40:43) winner take most if not all environment (00:40:47) and it's it's basically been amazing for (00:40:50) attractive guys attractive wealthy guys (00:40:53) tall wealthy guys it's been amazing for (00:40:54) them for all the other guys it's been a (00:40:57) disaster and it's been made it mildly (00:40:59) shittier for every woman it it is the (00:41:02) digitization of mating I believe has (00:41:05) been a disaster it's been bad for women (00:41:07) it's been disastrous for (00:41:09) men I want to talk about how the genders (00:41:12) seem to be separating in a lot of (00:41:14) important ways we know from research (00:41:15) around political affiliation that women (00:41:17) are now on average 30% more liberal than (00:41:20) men so they are definitely experiencing (00:41:22) political polarization then for the (00:41:24) first time in history more men are (00:41:26) attending church than and women and when (00:41:29) I started this research I really came at (00:41:31) it from this point of is it just me or (00:41:33) there not as many eligible guys but when (00:41:36) I dug into this I found that both (00:41:38) genders really feel misunderstood and so (00:41:41) I asked men and women who has more power (00:41:44) in relationships so equal amounts men (00:41:47) and women said oh we have the same (00:41:48) amount of power 42% of that but then (00:41:51) what was so interesting is that 46% of (00:41:53) men said women have more power and 46% (00:41:56) of women said men have more power so (00:41:59) there's this huge feeling of oh the (00:42:01) other gender has all of this power and (00:42:03) when I spoke to people I want to tell (00:42:05) you about three dating paradoxes that I (00:42:07) saw so the first dating Paradox for men (00:42:10) is this idea that now that women are (00:42:13) providers and do not need a man to take (00:42:16) care of them financially they really (00:42:17) want guys to step up with emotional (00:42:19) support but here's the Paradox they were (00:42:21) not raised and they don't know how to (00:42:24) give that emotional support or emotional (00:42:26) availability so we know women even if (00:42:28) they have the same number of friends as (00:42:30) guys the women are talking to their (00:42:31) friends much more often women speak to (00:42:35) their kids even starting at a very young (00:42:36) age they use more emotional language (00:42:38) with their daughters and their sons so (00:42:40) constantly we have this feeling where (00:42:42) we're asking men to do something when (00:42:43) they don't have the skills I was talking (00:42:45) to my friend David and he said women are (00:42:47) in graduate school when it comes to (00:42:49) emotional conversations and guys are in (00:42:51) third grade the other part of the (00:42:53) Paradox is that women are asking men to (00:42:56) be more emotionally open (00:42:58) but then they get shamed when they do (00:42:59) that so we have this great quote from (00:43:01) ber Brown where she says we beg guys to (00:43:04) open up we beg them to let us in and (00:43:06) then when they do we can't stomach it (00:43:08) and I heard that over and over in my (00:43:10) research there's this quote where a guy (00:43:12) says a woman would rather see me die on (00:43:14) the White Horse than fall off of it and (00:43:17) so there's this sense that I have to be (00:43:19) perfect I have to be the masculine and (00:43:21) The Feminine but I don't have the skills (00:43:24) to do that and women say that they want (00:43:26) these guys to be Emo but as soon as they (00:43:29) show emotionality it can freak those (00:43:31) women out so one guy that I spoke to for (00:43:33) this said I went on a few dates with (00:43:35) this woman at some point I told her that (00:43:37) my mom had had a suicide attempt and the (00:43:40) next day she texted me and said I'm (00:43:42) sorry I can't see you I cannot process (00:43:44) your emotional trauma for you and so (00:43:47) guys are getting a lot of mixed messages (00:43:48) we want you to be feminine we want you (00:43:50) to support us but when you do it freaks (00:43:53) us out and so we don't want that and (00:43:55) digging into the research and I want to (00:43:56) look into this more I think it's that a (00:43:58) lot of women want emotional support they (00:44:01) want you to support them in their (00:44:02) emotional Journeys but they're not as (00:44:04) ready to have you open up in your (00:44:07) emotional Journey can I put forward a (00:44:09) thesis and I want you to respond to it (00:44:11) because I haven't done the (00:44:13) research in marketing we call it (00:44:15) consumer dissonance what people say they (00:44:17) want yeah and then what they actually (00:44:19) buy and what women say they want is an (00:44:21) emotionally in touch man and what they (00:44:24) want is a masculine man and that they (00:44:27) will articulate what they want in a man (00:44:29) and includes being more emotionally (00:44:31) available and then they want to have sex (00:44:33) with a traditional masculine man and (00:44:36) what I hear from a lot of and this is (00:44:38) anecdotal evidence and it's pulse (00:44:39) marketing and you tell me what the data (00:44:41) says but there's just so many single (00:44:45) women in my age group and there's L it (00:44:47) feels like there's literally no men in (00:44:48) my age group as bad as it is for people (00:44:49) in their 20s and 30s trying being a (00:44:51) woman in your 50s trying to date right (00:44:54) and they tell me the same thing these (00:44:57) are liberal Progressive educated women (00:44:58) they say by the way I like a manly man (00:45:01) yeah and they say it under their breath (00:45:03) so there's what (00:45:05) supposedly is stated around I need more (00:45:08) emotional availability someone's touch (00:45:09) with their (00:45:10) feelings but what the research shows is (00:45:12) they want a guy with facial hair who's (00:45:15) the who's still women are still very (00:45:17) attracted to traditional masculine (00:45:20) attributes yeah I mean I think we're (00:45:22) just in such a hard moment because you (00:45:24) have women who are saying I don't want (00:45:26) to date a guy who earns less than me and (00:45:28) you might think okay well the data (00:45:31) hasn't caught up with the dating if more (00:45:33) women are in higher education and more (00:45:35) women are earning more then maybe you're (00:45:37) going to be the one who earns more in (00:45:39) your relationship but what they feel (00:45:41) like is projecting out I'm going to end (00:45:43) up doing most of the housework most of (00:45:45) the child care I might as well get a guy (00:45:46) that can contribute financially so they (00:45:48) don't want to change their expectations (00:45:50) around that and so I think we truly are (00:45:52) in a moment where women are being asked (00:45:55) to do more masculine things and men are (00:45:58) being asked to do more feminine things (00:45:59) and I think a lot of that is progress (00:46:02) but it also seems to be creating a lot (00:46:03) of confusion in the dating (00:46:05) world yeah it's sort of was just (00:46:08) thinking I coach a lot of young men and (00:46:10) occasionally women ask me for dating (00:46:12) advice and you coach it sounds like a (00:46:13) lot of both and what I first thing I say (00:46:16) to men is I asked them like would you (00:46:17) want to have sex with (00:46:19) you all right are you in shape what do (00:46:21) you look like naked are you do you have (00:46:24) a plan you don't have to be rich now but (00:46:25) do you have a plan right uh have you do (00:46:28) you have you found means of being (00:46:30) confident can you demonstrate kindness (00:46:32) and Excellence across anything and the (00:46:35) the only advice I give women is second (00:46:37) coffee and that is maybe it wasn't great (00:46:40) I mean if you don't like the guy and (00:46:41) you're just like turned off fine but if (00:46:44) it was just okay maybe give it a second (00:46:47) coffee I have a chapter in my book (00:46:49) called make the second date the default (00:46:51) yeah and it's really because I feel like (00:46:52) I won the lottery with my husband but he (00:46:54) is somebody that takes longer to open up (00:46:56) and he's this lowb bur we met in college (00:46:59) we met again s years later then we were (00:47:01) friends for a year and I feel like he's (00:47:03) this incredible partner husband father (00:47:06) but I don't know that if we'd met just (00:47:07) randomly on the first date that I would (00:47:09) have gone on the second date and so I (00:47:10) think people really do need to train (00:47:12) themselves to look for these slow burs (00:47:14) Logan Scott said something there about (00:47:16) what he thinks women want which is these (00:47:17) sort of traditional masculine features (00:47:19) is this what you see in the data what's (00:47:21) hard is I think Scott's right about what (00:47:24) people say they want versus like so (00:47:26) stated versus preferences so according (00:47:29) to the research that I did women are (00:47:31) saying the number one thing that they're (00:47:33) looking for is kindness and compassion (00:47:35) that's also what men are saying that (00:47:36) they're looking for so in many ways this (00:47:38) is great people are looking for the same (00:47:40) things but I just feel like there's (00:47:42) these huge disconnects now where people (00:47:44) don't feel like they can get what they (00:47:45) want men are saying they want kindness (00:47:47) and compassion that was I made them say (00:47:49) what are all the things that you care (00:47:51) about and then what is the number one (00:47:52) thing that you care about and kindness (00:47:53) and compassion was first for both of (00:47:55) them the stuff I've seen or the stuff (00:47:58) I've read is that for women and I talked (00:48:01) to men about this number one is they (00:48:04) have to Signal resources and we don't (00:48:06) like to say it out loud and by the way (00:48:08) it doesn't necessarily mean you have to (00:48:09) have a Range Rover and a panel right now (00:48:11) but you have a plan right you you have (00:48:14) your [ __ ] together you go home at (00:48:16) midnight when everyone's partying (00:48:18) because you have to be up for work you (00:48:19) work out which shows a level of (00:48:21) discipline and that you can commit to (00:48:22) something you're in school you've got a (00:48:25) good job this person is going to have (00:48:26) resour resources and I don't think (00:48:28) that's changed a whole lot I think a (00:48:31) man's ability to to Signal future (00:48:33) resources has gone down I'm not sure (00:48:34) it's become any less of a criteria (00:48:37) number two is intellect and it's very (00:48:39) instinctual because if you make good (00:48:40) decisions for the tribe your kids are (00:48:43) more likely to survive someone who's (00:48:45) smart is more likely to take care of (00:48:47) your Offspring than someone who's stupid (00:48:49) what's interesting and I love this is (00:48:51) the fastest way to communicate intellect (00:48:54) is humor and I joke I joke this is bad (00:48:57) but I say this is my impression of a (00:48:58) woman I'm laughing I'm laughing I'm (00:49:00) naked and that is I've always thought if (00:49:03) a guy can make a woman laugh she will (00:49:05) she will date him and then the third (00:49:08) thing and this is where guys screw up (00:49:10) this is what I tell a guy's secret (00:49:12) weapon is it's kindness women want to (00:49:17) see that you are a good person you you (00:49:20) treat service staff well you're good to (00:49:21) your parents you have manners you treat (00:49:24) people well even with no reciprocal (00:49:26) expectation because they know that a (00:49:28) kind person if and when she's vulnerable (00:49:31) and needs help and maybe isn't bringing (00:49:33) as much to the table for certain periods (00:49:35) of time that that this is a kind man and (00:49:39) you know sure you want to do your best (00:49:41) to Signal resources and have a plan sure (00:49:43) maybe you're smart maybe you aren't (00:49:45) there's not a lot you can do there but (00:49:47) the secret weapon I think for men that (00:49:49) they don't leverage and I do think it's (00:49:51) a practice is to demonstrate kindness (00:49:54) and we don't talk about that enough as (00:49:55) men it's like well okay and it's little (00:49:58) things have good manners be thoughtful (00:50:01) follow up with people and I I think that (00:50:04) anyways those are the three things that (00:50:06) I have read women want uh in men okay (00:50:10) there's so much there so one one is I do (00:50:13) think we need a new definition for (00:50:15) modern masculinity or mature masculinity (00:50:18) or evolved masculinity and I think that (00:50:21) that's why this moment feels so painful (00:50:23) is that we don't have it because I agree (00:50:25) with you I don't think women are saying (00:50:26) I want a feminine man I think they want (00:50:29) a modern masculine man and so that means (00:50:31) somebody who is decisive and can provide (00:50:35) but also somebody who's able to (00:50:37) communicate with them emotionally and so (00:50:40) one of the suggestions that I came here (00:50:42) today to talk about is this idea of (00:50:43) men's groups so about a year ago my (00:50:46) friend David claven who happens to be a (00:50:48) world-class magician came to my husband (00:50:50) and said I'm going to form this men's (00:50:52) group and so it's about six or seven men (00:50:55) and they meet together monthly and and (00:50:57) they have served they they have formed (00:50:59) this Council of peers so every month (00:51:01) that they get together every guy sits (00:51:03) down with Post-it notes and says the two (00:51:05) issues that are most pressing for him so (00:51:07) first of all I think that that's a great (00:51:08) way of doing it because it's actually (00:51:10) that time to say what am I struggling (00:51:12) with I think many people in their lives (00:51:14) maybe especially men don't sit there and (00:51:16) saying what's top of mine for me so guys (00:51:18) get the quiet time to do that then they (00:51:20) go around in a circle and whoever has (00:51:22) the most pressing issue they get to take (00:51:25) their time and some men might say know (00:51:27) these are top of mind for me but it's (00:51:28) not a priority I'll give the time to (00:51:30) someone else and each month they talk (00:51:32) about what's going on for them they hold (00:51:34) each other accountable so month three (00:51:36) they might say hey David you've been (00:51:38) talking about that for the last three (00:51:39) months are you going to actually do (00:51:41) anything about it and I love that these (00:51:43) men have a masculine space to actually (00:51:45) go through what's going on for them (00:51:48) because maybe they have wives and (00:51:49) girlfriends they can go to maybe they (00:51:51) don't but I think it's a different type (00:51:53) of advice that you get from a council of (00:51:55) trusted peers and I really do think that (00:51:58) men's groups could change a lot of these (00:52:00) issues because I can sit here and say (00:52:02) everybody should be in therapy guess (00:52:04) what therapy is really expensive and (00:52:06) many insurance companies will not (00:52:08) provide it or there's a huge waiting (00:52:09) list and so if we just sit around for (00:52:11) all these guys to go to therapy that's (00:52:13) not going to happen but men's groups are (00:52:15) a way that men can lead each other they (00:52:18) can provide this tribe of peers and I (00:52:21) have just seen so many changes in this (00:52:23) group so David told me his story where (00:52:26) he had a lot of anger about his mom's (00:52:27) debilitating illness and he wasn't (00:52:30) really experiencing it and it was coming (00:52:32) out as anger at his mom but he wasn't (00:52:34) conscious of that but by getting the (00:52:36) anger out in a safe place with men the (00:52:39) only place where he felt like he could (00:52:40) truly be angry he was able to get over (00:52:43) it and to actually treat his mom with a (00:52:45) lot more empathy or my husband has gone (00:52:47) to the group and talked about ego stuff (00:52:50) at work or how hard the transition to (00:52:52) becoming a parent has been and I feel (00:52:54) like the men in this group have grown so (00:52:56) much over the 12 months that it's been (00:52:58) happening that I just paid for my (00:53:01) brother-in-law to be in a men's group (00:53:02) and I want there to be tons of men's (00:53:04) groups because I really feel like this (00:53:06) isn't an issue that a therapist or a mom (00:53:08) or I can really solve I think men need (00:53:10) to be solving this problem within (00:53:12) themselves where you said is really (00:53:14) powerful because if you walk down the (00:53:15) hallway at Stern there's golden seeds (00:53:17) Venture cap women and Venture Capital (00:53:20) black women's Consulting Club there (00:53:23) there are women's (00:53:24) supporters there's nothing for men and (00:53:27) these groups are really wonderful man (00:53:30) talks is one that I've been looking at (00:53:32) where they've said let's get together (00:53:34) and just be supportive of each other and (00:53:37) it's and it's a fairly new phenomenon I (00:53:40) think people are afraid of men Gathering (00:53:41) because traditionally bad things have (00:53:43) happened in that right there I mean (00:53:45) gangs I'm just thinking of like many (00:53:47) situations in which like if once there's (00:53:49) a TIY torch I want there to be some (00:53:52) women there right like so there's a (00:53:53) reason why people have been fearful of (00:53:55) this or it's like when the whole world (00:53:56) was was a men's group a men's club you (00:53:59) didn't need to have Men's Clubs but I (00:54:01) think in this moment this is a really (00:54:03) powerful organic Grassroots way for men (00:54:07) to change so I imagine that you have (00:54:09) group chats with men that are your peers (00:54:11) that you go to for advice and I feel (00:54:13) like there's men out there that don't (00:54:15) have that and we are meant to make (00:54:18) decisions by getting advice from other (00:54:20) people I personally have a board of (00:54:22) directors that in my life when I'm going (00:54:25) to make a big decision I meet with them (00:54:26) so when I took my last job when I (00:54:29) decided to move all these different (00:54:31) things I meet with my board of directors (00:54:33) and I say what am I not seeing what are (00:54:35) my blind spots and they've given me a (00:54:37) lot of good and hard advice and I think (00:54:39) we all need to be building our own board (00:54:41) of directors and for men that might be (00:54:44) this men's group do you mind if I pause (00:54:46) this conversation for a moment I want to (00:54:48) talk about our show sponsor today which (00:54:49) is Shopify I've always believed that the (00:54:52) biggest cost in business isn't failure (00:54:53) it's the time you waste trying to make (00:54:55) decisions time spent hesitating (00:54:57) overthinking or waiting for the right (00:54:59) moment when I started my first company (00:55:01) at 20 years old I had no experience and (00:55:03) no money what I did have was an idea and (00:55:06) the willingness to move fast and that (00:55:08) made all the difference if you've been (00:55:10) thinking about starting your own (00:55:11) business Shopify makes this entire (00:55:13) process so much easier with thousands of (00:55:15) customizable templates you don't need (00:55:17) coding or design skills you just need a (00:55:19) willingness to start Shopify connects (00:55:21) all your sales channels from your (00:55:22) website to social media and it handles (00:55:25) the backend payments shipping and tax es (00:55:27) to so that you can stay focused on (00:55:28) moving forward and growing your business (00:55:30) if you're ready to start visit (00:55:32) shopify.com Bartlet and sign up for a (00:55:35) one pound per month trial period That's (00:55:37) shopify.com (00:55:39) Bartlet it is hard as a as a young man (00:55:42) to um share how you feel with other (00:55:45) young men even if they like your best (00:55:46) friends it's so much easier just to (00:55:47) roast each other yeah like my my group (00:55:49) chat with my guys yeah is probably a (00:55:52) little bit more advanced in in terms of (00:55:53) emotional openness but most of it is (00:55:55) just like a war zone well like izing (00:55:57) each other attacking each other but (00:55:58) that's kind of our way of showing love (00:55:59) and then you'll have once every two (00:56:02) weeks someone will be going through (00:56:04) something so like one of my friends now (00:56:06) he they' just found out that there's a (00:56:08) complication with the pregnancy and the (00:56:10) tone shifts and we all become supportive (00:56:13) but my girlfriend tells me how rare that (00:56:14) is that we have this space where we'll (00:56:16) we'll talk about our emotions and how (00:56:17) we're feeling and we'll swi switch from (00:56:19) like trying to kill each other in the (00:56:21) most like funny way to being really (00:56:23) really emotionally supportive a lot of (00:56:25) men don't have that well so funny you (00:56:27) said that because my husband's really (00:56:28) funny and so are some of the other guys (00:56:29) in the group and they actually had to (00:56:31) talk about how they needed to be less (00:56:32) funny because the F the humor was (00:56:34) becoming a distraction and somebody (00:56:36) brought up you know in their own male (00:56:39) way like I think that sometimes we're (00:56:40) about to go deep and then someone makes (00:56:42) a joke and even though that joke was (00:56:43) really good we don't go back to where we (00:56:45) were and we don't go as deep so they (00:56:47) actually work on being less funny in (00:56:49) that group but look at the work that you (00:56:51) do you sit for hours a week and you (00:56:52) learn and you ask people questions and (00:56:54) you're working on yourself I'm not (00:56:55) surprised that you have a group of peers (00:56:57) that you can go to for that but I would (00:56:59) wager that the average man doesn't have (00:57:01) that and I feel like there are going to (00:57:03) be so many women who are listening and (00:57:05) watching this and they're like I want (00:57:07) that for my husband what is the (00:57:08) evolutionary basis for this this is what (00:57:10) I was thinking the whole time I was like (00:57:12) did we lose the man's group at some (00:57:13) point in our past and is that why we're (00:57:16) adding it back into our lives like what (00:57:17) was what used to do this job before so (00:57:19) what I've heard and I think evolutionary (00:57:22) biology you always have to take certain (00:57:23) things with a grain of salt because (00:57:25) people can kind of explain away any with (00:57:27) it but it's that a lot of times men were (00:57:30) sitting next to each other and they were (00:57:32) having these conversations on the (00:57:33) Savannah and that's often why like guys (00:57:35) prefer to do activities side by side and (00:57:38) not facing each other and so you had men (00:57:41) who were in conversation with their (00:57:43) peers or you know and outside and (00:57:46) outside hey heard you getting divorced (00:57:49) right right or it's like you know why (00:57:51) it's so good to have conversations in (00:57:53) the car I feel like you had a lot of men (00:57:55) that were in groups at church you had (00:57:58) men who were in The Elks Club you had (00:58:00) veterans that were meeting we actually (00:58:02) feel like this is a time where much (00:58:03) fewer men are getting together and this (00:58:05) is all of the amazing research that's (00:58:07) happening now around loneliness is that (00:58:09) the average young guy is spending many (00:58:11) fewer hours a week with their peers face (00:58:14) to face so even though a guy might be (00:58:16) catching up with his friend playing (00:58:17) video games I just don't think that (00:58:19) that's the same thing and so I feel like (00:58:21) we need this in-person time with our (00:58:24) friends to develop these relationships (00:58:26) and instead we have people on Tik Tok (00:58:29) people on Twitch watching other people (00:58:31) live their lives you brought up two (00:58:33) interesting thing you when is your your (00:58:35) your friend group I have a similar group (00:58:37) same eight gu eight guys I live with my (00:58:39) freshman here at UCLA for 30 or 40 years (00:58:43) we've been kind of Constant Contact (00:58:44) email now on (00:58:46) WhatsApp when your friend had something (00:58:48) bad happen to him I think for a long (00:58:50) time men have waited and show empathy (00:58:52) for each other what none of my male (00:58:54) friends have ever done their friend (00:58:56) group would say is I I've never heard (00:58:58) one of my male friends go I'm depressed (00:59:02) I'm I'm just super [ __ ] lonely and (00:59:04) depressed you just don't hear that from (00:59:06) Men I'm struggling with anger I'm I have (00:59:09) I'm all of a sudden I have a rectile (00:59:11) dysfunction you would just I've never (00:59:13) heard one of my male friends when their (00:59:15) mom dies or they get divorced we weigh (00:59:17) in with a lot of empathy but you never (00:59:19) hear them really open up because men are (00:59:23) worried that if we display weakness (00:59:25) another man might kill us (00:59:27) and take our [ __ ] from us or the women (00:59:29) aren't going to want to have sex with us (00:59:31) so there's still I think a huge (00:59:34) inability for men to proactively talk (00:59:36) about how they're really feeling and (00:59:38) then you talked about a board of (00:59:40) directors a great Board of Directors for (00:59:42) a man in his 20s unfortunately not (00:59:45) unfortunately is a girlfriend yeah and (00:59:48) I'll just use personal (00:59:50) experience I had a great girlfriend when (00:59:52) I was 24 and she basically said to me if (00:59:53) you don't stop getting high every night (00:59:56) I'm going Toop stop having sex with you (00:59:58) that was very motivating for me I really (01:00:00) liked being with a (01:00:02) partner without the guardrails of a (01:00:05) romantic relationship I think men are (01:00:08) just I want to say lost but women create (01:00:12) more social connections outside of a (01:00:13) romantic relationship and sometimes that (01:00:15) absence of a romantic relationship they (01:00:17) pour that energy into friendships and (01:00:20) their professional life whereas Men (01:00:21) start pouring it into video games and (01:00:23) rdit in porn so the fact that only one (01:00:27) in three men in America under the age of (01:00:29) 30 has a girlfriend and two and three (01:00:31) women has a boyfriend you think well (01:00:32) that's mathematically impossible it's (01:00:33) not because women are dating older (01:00:35) because they want more economically and (01:00:36) emotionally viable men if I hadn't been (01:00:38) in relationships that were great (01:00:41) guardrails for me in terms of my own (01:00:43) behavior my own (01:00:45) ambition I men need without the prospect (01:00:49) or the existence of a romantic (01:00:51) relationship men have worse outcomes (01:00:53) than women who don't have and it it is (01:00:58) what I'm do you agree with what I'm (01:00:59) saying does the research bear that (01:01:01) out you know it's interesting because (01:01:03) part of me where my head goes is like (01:01:05) are you asking women to do the emotional (01:01:07) labor of raising men and when you phrase (01:01:09) it like that it sounds really negative (01:01:12) but from anecdotal experience from my (01:01:14) own life you know I've been with my (01:01:15) husband for 10 years I think we both (01:01:17) really shaped each other but like even (01:01:19) yesterday he texted me and he's like I'm (01:01:20) going to get an Uber instead of renting (01:01:22) a car at the airport you've taught me (01:01:23) how to be such a Savvy traveler like (01:01:25) that's a small example but but it's like (01:01:26) you really do influence each other and I (01:01:28) think that I think sometimes about my (01:01:31) single friends and how they go to bed at (01:01:34) night and they don't have a person next (01:01:36) to them to give them advice and to (01:01:38) listen to them talk about their day and (01:01:40) I think that when we're in long-term (01:01:41) relationships there's an element of (01:01:43) raising each other and building memories (01:01:46) together and making each other better (01:01:47) and having that investment equals three (01:01:49) right and that's why I just all these (01:01:51) women that come to me and all these men (01:01:53) that are looking for love that want (01:01:55) relationships and something is happening (01:01:57) right now where the Gap just seems to be (01:01:59) widening and these relationships aren't (01:02:01) happening and this is even true in (01:02:03) teenage relationship so it used to be (01:02:06) that for Baby Boomers and Gen X three4 (01:02:08) of men had had a relationship in their (01:02:10) teen years and now it's under 50% and so (01:02:14) if you start building your relational (01:02:16) skills at an early age then you get (01:02:19) better and better at dating over time (01:02:21) but if as you said by the time you're 30 (01:02:23) you haven't been in a relationship (01:02:24) that's seen as a red flag to a lot of (01:02:26) people (01:02:26) and so I think we have a problem now but (01:02:29) I'm really projecting that we're going (01:02:30) to have a much greater problem in the (01:02:32) future I think a real enemy of (01:02:36) relationships and mating for people in (01:02:38) their 20s that we haven't talked a lot (01:02:39) about I had Dr Anna lmy from Stanford on (01:02:42) my pod talking about addiction and (01:02:46) something we're just starting to come to (01:02:47) grips with and as I read more about it I (01:02:50) think porn is really let's talk about (01:02:51) porn well personal experience I used to (01:02:56) to go on Camp the only reason I (01:02:57) graduated from UCLA I graduated with a (01:02:59) 2.27 GPA if I graduated with a 1.97 I (01:03:02) wouldn't (01:03:03) graduated not an not the only motivator (01:03:06) but a real motivator for me was the (01:03:09) prospect of meeting someone I I could go (01:03:11) on to campus and there might be a chance (01:03:13) I'd meet friends be social and possibly (01:03:16) meet a potential romantic partner it was (01:03:18) very motivating and if I'd had porn on (01:03:21) this right and on my screen always (01:03:24) available I'm not sure I would gone on (01:03:26) campus I I just would have spent a lot (01:03:28) more time at home and unfortunately the (01:03:31) deepest pocketed most talented companies (01:03:33) in the world are trying to convince (01:03:35) young people that they can have a (01:03:37) reasonable fact simile of life on a (01:03:39) screen with an algorithm and what I say (01:03:42) to young men I coaches it I'm not going (01:03:43) to tell you not to consume porn but try (01:03:46) to modulate it because I think that fire (01:03:49) of wanting to meet someone and wanting (01:03:50) to demonstrate excellence and being (01:03:54) having perseverance and enduring (01:03:55) rejection getting your [ __ ] together and (01:03:57) dressing well and smelling nice and (01:03:59) showering for God's sakes that Mojo that (01:04:02) desire is incredibly important for (01:04:05) society and we're taking young men's (01:04:08) Mojo Away With frictionless Open Access (01:04:12) ond demand porn have you seen these noof (01:04:15) fap communities yeah have you seen this (01:04:19) yes okay so I was listening to this (01:04:20) episode of Modern William with Chris (01:04:21) Williamson and he was interviewing Hamza (01:04:24) who was self-identifying as a former (01:04:26) redpilled person and he was talking (01:04:28) about how much it changed his life to (01:04:29) try to enter the noof fap Community (01:04:32) which means no masturbation and so I do (01:04:35) think that porn is a huge problem my (01:04:38) first job out of college was running the (01:04:41) porn pod for Google so what this meant (01:04:44) was that we would sell ads for the porn (01:04:47) advertisers this team does not exist (01:04:49) anymore this was a long time ago um my (01:04:52) parents were like I sent you to Harvard (01:04:54) and now you're selling ads for (01:04:55) pornography (01:04:57) but when I look back I'm like what was I (01:04:59) perpetuating because I feel like there's (01:05:02) just so many problems with what (01:05:03) technology is doing in terms of (01:05:05) replacing human connection so let's just (01:05:07) project out chat PT is already amazing (01:05:10) I'm currently in my Google feed getting (01:05:12) ads for replica and the ads say get your (01:05:15) perfect AI boyfriend always there for (01:05:18) you yeah so you think about the fact (01:05:20) that real life relationships are messy I (01:05:23) tell my husband on a weekly basis please (01:05:25) throw contact lens in the garbage and (01:05:28) every week we have a disagreement about (01:05:30) that well guess what your online (01:05:32) girlfriend she doesn't nag you she (01:05:34) doesn't tell you to pick up your socks (01:05:37) she only tells you how great you are and (01:05:39) always tells you you know that you're (01:05:41) doing the right thing and how was your (01:05:42) day then you insert sex robots Okay so (01:05:45) you have your emotional needs met you (01:05:47) have your sexual needs met maybe you're (01:05:49) watching porn while engaging with your (01:05:52) sex robots why would you want to go (01:05:54) through the very challenging potential (01:05:57) rejection of real life relationships and (01:05:59) I feel like if all these things come to (01:06:01) pass which it seems very likely that (01:06:03) they will we are truly in a crisis (01:06:05) moment when it comes to birth rate and (01:06:08) future generations and it impacts them (01:06:11) it'll impact the economy because the (01:06:14) skills you have to develop to be (01:06:17) successful in The Mating Market are life (01:06:19) skills you have to be able to endure (01:06:21) rejection you have to have a sense of (01:06:23) humor you have to be able to read the (01:06:24) room show me a guy who's good in a bar (01:06:27) I'll show you a guy who probably be good (01:06:28) in a boardroom and the skills you have (01:06:30) to develop as a young man if you want a (01:06:32) romantic and a sexual relationship pay (01:06:34) dividends the rest of your life and if (01:06:36) you don't develop those skills I think (01:06:38) it impacts your life across a bunch of (01:06:40) Dimensions this is something I'm worried (01:06:42) about for genz in general so I did a ton (01:06:43) of research with post-pandemic genz (01:06:46) daters men and women in the UK and (01:06:48) United States and such a big theme that (01:06:50) came out of it was that they don't have (01:06:52) rejection resilience and I think that we (01:06:54) hear this in many aspects of life so (01:06:56) someone that I'm close to he's the (01:06:58) former dean of brown he's a professor (01:07:00) there and he was talking about how it (01:07:02) used to be that his office hours were (01:07:04) empty and that's when he could do his (01:07:05) reading or play solitire but now (01:07:06) students come basically saying tell me (01:07:08) exactly what's going to be on the test (01:07:10) tell me exactly what to write in my (01:07:11) paper because they are not willing to (01:07:13) fail I have friends who are managers at (01:07:15) Google and they give somebody feedback (01:07:17) in a Google doc and the person is crying (01:07:20) because they take that as extreme (01:07:22) rejection and so if you don't have the (01:07:24) resilience built up fail then you are (01:07:27) not going to take risks and everything (01:07:29) in life worth having is worth taking a (01:07:31) risk for and so I feel that I have my (01:07:34) dream job nobody messaged me on LinkedIn (01:07:36) and said hey Logan do you want to study (01:07:37) dating and relationships no I invented (01:07:40) this job and now I get to have it and (01:07:42) same thing is true with relationships (01:07:44) it's not about waiting for the perfect (01:07:46) person to show up it's about becoming a (01:07:48) great person who somebody else chooses (01:07:50) and going after what you want I want to (01:07:52) talk about all of this and it (01:07:53) specifically offer some solutions to the (01:07:55) young to the parents to the boys to the (01:07:57) teens to the men that are listening we (01:07:59) had a young man actually write in on (01:08:01) this subject and he said I've suffered (01:08:03) with crippling loneliness and so I've (01:08:05) spent over $1,000 hiring women online (01:08:07) just to talk to me and to keep me (01:08:09) company on top of that I've spent (01:08:11) several ,000 more engaging in other (01:08:14) business with them after doing this for (01:08:16) nearly a year now I still feel (01:08:18) incredibly unfulfilled and on the (01:08:19) subject of porn 30% of internet traffic (01:08:22) is now related to porn with about 80% of (01:08:25) that porn traffic coming from men and (01:08:27) 20% coming from women I actually had a (01:08:29) conversation on this podcast before (01:08:30) about porn and funly enough the top (01:08:32) comment was by the way us women what get (01:08:35) porn addicted to because it was a bit of (01:08:38) a blind spot to me but I think that's (01:08:40) something that's worth (01:08:41) acknowledging and the stats are (01:08:43) staggering in terms of how higher porn (01:08:45) consumption correlates to higher (01:08:47) probabilities of (01:08:49) depression what you do about it like on (01:08:51) an individual level I get it try not to (01:08:53) watch porn but I mean that doesn't seem (01:08:55) like incredibly great advice because if (01:08:57) you're lonely you're not getting laid no (01:09:00) one wants to date you for all the (01:09:01) reasons we've talked about today (01:09:03) restraint seems to be a pretty (01:09:06) shitty solution give this one to okay so (01:09:10) I coach young men I take two to three on (01:09:12) at any time and I don't know if this is (01:09:14) the right way but it's my way I'm like (01:09:16) you got to lean into your advantage when (01:09:17) you're our age you have more you have (01:09:19) Capital you have more money than time (01:09:21) they have Capital they have a lot of (01:09:23) time and I asked them to unlock their (01:09:25) screen and I say to them I gamble with (01:09:28) options I gamble at my age I still (01:09:31) gamble I I preach about lowcost index (01:09:34) funds and I buy call options that makes (01:09:36) no [ __ ] sense it's gambling but I (01:09:37) know it I watch porn I try and modulate (01:09:41) my use so I can put the majority of my (01:09:43) sexual energy into my partner but I (01:09:45) watch porn because I want them to not (01:09:46) feel like I'm going to judge them they (01:09:48) unlock their phone and I say we're going (01:09:50) to find 8 to 12 hours a week of time of (01:09:53) capital and we're going to reinvest that (01:09:55) capital and higher Roi Investments it is (01:09:58) so easy to find 8 to 12 hours it can (01:10:01) sometimes find seven hours or 15 hours (01:10:03) just in tick talk you look at screen (01:10:04) time I look at screen time and I say all (01:10:07) right come with through with me we're (01:10:08) going to find eight to 12 hours and then (01:10:11) we're going to reinvest that capital in (01:10:13) three Investments one we're going to (01:10:15) start working out and getting fit you're (01:10:18) going to work out three times a week (01:10:19) with weights you should be able the the (01:10:21) human mail form is spectacular you (01:10:25) should be able to walk in in any room (01:10:26) under the age of 30 if you're a man and (01:10:28) know that if [ __ ] got real you could (01:10:29) kill and eat everybody or outrun them I (01:10:31) need you to be strong you're going to be (01:10:34) more mentally healthy you're going to be (01:10:36) kinder look at the people who break up (01:10:38) fights at bars they're big strong men (01:10:40) look at the people who defend their (01:10:42) country you want to be strong as a man (01:10:45) it feels [ __ ] amazing testosterone (01:10:47) your your bone structure your muscle (01:10:49) mass it's amazing lean into that we're (01:10:52) going to get strong two you got to start (01:10:55) making (01:10:56) money and the kids are you know to be (01:10:58) honest the kids I'm coaching are really (01:11:00) struggling these are kids at home at the (01:11:02) age of 23 with their mom not getting (01:11:04) along with their mom nothing going on if (01:11:07) you have a phone you can make money I (01:11:09) don't care if it's lift Tas ret because (01:11:11) you get a taste for the Flesh and the (01:11:14) the way to start making a lot of money (01:11:15) is to start making a little bit of money (01:11:17) because you start to figure out the (01:11:18) economy how could I make more money (01:11:20) maybe at some point could I buy a car (01:11:22) and hire a driver to be an Uber you know (01:11:24) what what is the way (01:11:26) you know could I get a certification in (01:11:28) in Plum you start figuring out and you (01:11:31) start getting your GRE gland get going (01:11:32) oh my God it's a have money I can go out (01:11:35) I can go to a concert it gets those (01:11:37) greed Gins going and then the third (01:11:38) thing we're going to do is we're going (01:11:40) to put ourselves in a company of (01:11:41) strangers in the agency of something (01:11:43) bigger than ourselves twice a week (01:11:44) church group softball league (01:11:47) nonprofit chair whatever it is and then (01:11:51) 3A and this is I've just started doing (01:11:53) this I've believe done it two times and (01:11:55) it's an exercise and I say and it goes (01:11:57) to your I think no is the way to success (01:12:01) show me someone who's successful I'm (01:12:02) going to show you a [ __ ] ton of NOS I've (01:12:05) been re I ran for sophomore junior (01:12:07) senior class president lost all three (01:12:08) times decided to run for senior class (01:12:10) president lost I applied to 38 jobs I (01:12:13) got one offer nine schools rejected by (01:12:15) seven I mean I just my whole life has (01:12:17) been about no and that's why I'm (01:12:20) successful is I was always able to (01:12:21) endure it so I say to them this is what (01:12:23) I want you to do I need you to go up to (01:12:25) a stranger at wherever we're doing (01:12:26) church group Rider Club Riders club (01:12:29) whatever it might be online educa not (01:12:31) online excuse me education continuing (01:12:33) education and you're gonna ask them out (01:12:34) for coffee it's a friend hey what are (01:12:37) you doing you want to watch the game do (01:12:38) you want to watch the Liverpool game (01:12:40) this weekend let's go to a bar if it's a (01:12:42) woman you might have new trctor to Hey (01:12:44) try and get a wrap going would you like (01:12:46) to have coffee and here's the goal the (01:12:48) goal is no and we're going to celebrate (01:12:50) now CU you're going to call me and I'm (01:12:52) going to say did you ask someone out for (01:12:53) coffee or to a bar and most likely (01:12:55) they'll said no it'll be polite but'll (01:12:57) come excuse and then I'm going to ask (01:12:58) you if you're okay and you're going to (01:13:00) say yes and that's the victory it's (01:13:02) interesting because if you go on Tik Tok (01:13:03) or if you go on X you'll find a lot of (01:13:06) videos of women filming themselves as a (01:13:10) guy inappropriately came and made a (01:13:11) gesture to them and then like publicly (01:13:13) shaming them on the Internet it's very (01:13:15) popular to do in the gym yeah they set (01:13:16) up a phone they're working out a guy (01:13:18) comes over and asks if they need help (01:13:19) with the weights it then goes viral (01:13:21) online because that guy was being (01:13:23) inappropriate like you shouldn't so like (01:13:25) as a guy it's quite complicated to know (01:13:28) how and where you can roll up without (01:13:30) being filmed and going viral I know so (01:13:33) we we talked about the first dating (01:13:34) Paradox which is just the idea that (01:13:36) women now need more from men and are (01:13:38) raising the bar because they can be (01:13:39) providers on their own but men weren't (01:13:41) taught how to do that and they're (01:13:42) sometimes shame for it so I think the (01:13:43) second big dating Paradox is that men (01:13:46) are expected to lead and to approach but (01:13:48) I truly feel like in a post me too era (01:13:51) it's much more confusing and so so many (01:13:53) people say to me I don't want to meet on (01:13:55) an app not romantic I want to meet in (01:13:57) real life but I'm not finding that (01:13:59) people are meeting in real life because (01:14:01) people are afraid to approach each other (01:14:03) I think one is being afraid of being (01:14:05) called creepy but the other one which is (01:14:07) what you're talking about is that this (01:14:09) culture of making tick toks or going (01:14:12) online with this dater attainment to (01:14:14) talk about how this person approached (01:14:15) you or how inappropriate that was and so (01:14:18) I feel like there's a lot of women (01:14:20) waiting for men to approach them but (01:14:21) then shaming The Men Who do I think one (01:14:23) of the solutions there is we should (01:14:25) allow people to shoot their shot in a (01:14:27) non- creepy way can I just say something (01:14:29) to that if the guy rolls up and he's 6'4 (01:14:32) and he's you know gorgeous it's fine it (01:14:36) seems the difference between creepy and (01:14:37) romantic is the perceived attractiveness (01:14:39) of the person making the Overture I (01:14:41) think that that is true if you are super (01:14:43) hot it's less lik to be perceived as (01:14:45) creepy but you have all these people (01:14:47) that are saying I want to be approached (01:14:49) and they're not being approached and so (01:14:51) there was this rise of run clubs last (01:14:53) summer right everyone said the new (01:14:54) dating app is the Run Club I ask (01:14:56) everywhere I go have you met someone at (01:14:58) a run Club no people are not really (01:15:01) meeting there so since 2017 the number (01:15:04) one way that people are meeting is (01:15:05) online Hing just setting up a date every (01:15:07) two seconds this is where the dating is (01:15:09) happening if people want more things to (01:15:11) happen offline they actually have to (01:15:13) approach each other and I'm just not (01:15:14) seeing that happen but my understanding (01:15:17) is the majority of women still expect (01:15:19) the man to take the initiative (01:15:20) absolutely (01:15:22) and this is one of the most frightening (01:15:24) stats I've seen (01:15:26) according to Pew more than 50% of men (01:15:29) between the ages of 18 and 24 have never (01:15:31) asked a woman out in (01:15:33) person (01:15:35) and I just find that (01:15:37) so just upsetting and rattling because (01:15:40) that means they're either not asking (01:15:42) people out or they're asking them out (01:15:43) online where quite frankly they can't (01:15:44) demonstrate any sense of excellence and (01:15:46) I think the beautiful thing about human (01:15:47) sexuality is sometimes you don't even (01:15:49) know why you're attracted to someone you (01:15:50) like the way they smell you find out (01:15:51) they're funny and that happens in person (01:15:55) but we need one more third spaces more (01:15:58) places people can meet and also I I (01:16:02) actually think it would be helpful to (01:16:03) have in the senior of high school a (01:16:05) class called adulting where amongst (01:16:07) other things you teach them about the (01:16:09) interest rate on a credit card you know (01:16:11) little things my my kid can do integers (01:16:13) and he doesn't understand the interest (01:16:14) rate on his credit card and also quite (01:16:16) frankly I think young men need guidance (01:16:18) around how to express romantic interest (01:16:21) while making the other person feel safe (01:16:24) and also that if you express romantic (01:16:27) interest and ask someone out for coffee (01:16:29) and they say no you're both going to be (01:16:31) fine you haven't committed a crime (01:16:33) against humanity as long as you're (01:16:36) respectful and you don't make the person (01:16:38) feel uncomfortable but men aren't even (01:16:41) asking women out everything you're (01:16:43) saying is what I'm seeing so I was (01:16:45) talking to this incredible 16-year-old (01:16:46) girl who built this AI chat bot called (01:16:49) ask L and she's taken all the (01:16:51) relationship science research that she's (01:16:53) seen and she's trained this chatbot and (01:16:55) she's trying to help teens get safe and (01:16:57) empowered dating advice and I asked her (01:16:59) what is the number one question that (01:17:00) you're getting and it's how to ask (01:17:02) someone out and so I think people are (01:17:04) really struggling it's not that teens in (01:17:06) all of human history had the secret it's (01:17:08) that they were willing to do it and fail (01:17:10) and now we're just not seeing that and (01:17:12) so I think that we have glossed over the (01:17:15) pandemic it was this really traumatic (01:17:16) time really scary stuff happened and we (01:17:18) don't want to talk about it but people (01:17:20) that came of age during the pandemic (01:17:22) their social skills are worse they (01:17:24) missed out on critical moments of (01:17:26) becoming a human and we are seeing that (01:17:28) in the workplace all these things about (01:17:30) gen Z gen Alpha that came from something (01:17:33) it came from parenting it came from (01:17:35) digital addiction it came from the (01:17:38) pandemic and online learning and I think (01:17:40) that if you do not have the social (01:17:42) skills to approach someone and ask them (01:17:43) out there just will be literally fewer (01:17:45) couples I want to throw a Molotov (01:17:48) cocktail into this and something that's (01:17:49) controversial I've got push back on I (01:17:51) think one of the enemies of mating is (01:17:53) that there's to little drinking (01:17:56) if you look at um Millennials they spent (01:17:59) $30 billion on alcohol genz it's crashed (01:18:02) to two billion Peter ATA and Andrew (01:18:03) huberman have declared war on drinking I (01:18:06) think young people need to drink more go (01:18:07) out and make a series of bad decisions (01:18:09) and might pay off I don't see (01:18:11) drunkenness I see togetherness and I (01:18:13) don't know how it was for you and your (01:18:14) relationship when I think of the (01:18:15) majority of great friendships I have and (01:18:17) the Romantic opportunities I've had not (01:18:20) always but often alcohol played a role (01:18:23) and I worry that with a lack of going (01:18:25) out being out of the house and also a (01:18:28) lack of drinking that we've taken away a (01:18:30) social lubricant that breaks down some (01:18:32) of the walls and some of the initial (01:18:33) awkwardness and entry into a potential (01:18:36) romantic relationship I think some of (01:18:38) the increase in Being Sober Sober (01:18:40) curious comes from interest in being (01:18:42) healthy so we hear from Jen Z I don't (01:18:43) want to have anxiety the next day they (01:18:46) are much less expensive yeah they are (01:18:48) much less like leita Millennials to feel (01:18:50) like there's a two drink drink minimum (01:18:52) for dates but in general we seeing less (01:18:54) risk- taking behavior from gen Z they (01:18:56) are getting their licenses far later if (01:18:59) at all they are losing their virginity (01:19:02) much later if at all and so I feel like (01:19:05) there's this rise of or there's this (01:19:08) decrease in risk-taking Behavior which (01:19:10) in some ways is great you know fewer (01:19:12) kids dying in car crashes and people (01:19:14) being responsible but I just feel like (01:19:17) people are having people are missing out (01:19:19) on the experience to make mistakes as a (01:19:21) young person and I think when I think (01:19:23) back to my college experience if there (01:19:25) had been cameras that have high quality (01:19:29) video on them at all times I would have (01:19:31) lived a very different college (01:19:33) experience I am so grateful that (01:19:35) Instagram was not there when I was in (01:19:38) college and so if you live in a (01:19:40) surveillance culture where at any moment (01:19:43) somebody is snapping the room and they (01:19:45) could see what you're doing you're going (01:19:47) to take fewer risks and I just feel like (01:19:49) there's this entire culture of people (01:19:51) being very safe and part of dating part (01:19:54) of mating is making mistakes taking (01:19:56) risks and failing so what do we do about (01:19:58) it Logan speaking Scott gave a really (01:20:01) good um sort of advice for the young man (01:20:04) or the young person who's trying to (01:20:06) increase their mating value their dating (01:20:08) value if I'm a what advice would you (01:20:10) give to a young man about how to be (01:20:12) attractive because there's going to be a (01:20:13) lot of young men listening right now I (01:20:15) imagine from the stats all I love what (01:20:17) Scott said in terms of his advice and I (01:20:19) feel like it's one of those things where (01:20:21) the secret to happiness or the secret to (01:20:23) success is simple but hard so it's not (01:20:27) like there's infinite things you need to (01:20:28) do it's actually quite a simple plan but (01:20:30) it's quite hard to execute on it a few (01:20:32) things that I would add so one is I have (01:20:35) this friend Sam par he started the (01:20:36) hustle he started the podcast my first (01:20:38) million one thing that he did to make (01:20:40) himself more attractive as a mate was he (01:20:43) would develop these passions and really (01:20:45) talk about them on dates because he (01:20:47) found that women were really drawn to (01:20:48) the fact that he was pursuing other (01:20:51) activities so he got really into Denim (01:20:53) and he would talk about these denim (01:20:54) meets that that he would go to and he (01:20:56) found that women were really drawn to (01:20:57) that he's very into the growth mindset (01:20:59) and working on himself he felt like that (01:21:02) was something that women were so drawn (01:21:04) to how he was growing because if you (01:21:06) think about the projections well when he (01:21:09) met my friend Sarah he wasn't making any (01:21:11) money she was making a lot more than him (01:21:13) but she could see that he had a great (01:21:16) path ahead of him because he was (01:21:17) constantly working and improving himself (01:21:20) the other thing I would tell men is (01:21:21) through my research I found that men (01:21:23) think I need to be perfect I need to be (01:21:25) six feet tall look women are not (01:21:28) expecting you to fly them to the Moon (01:21:30) they want effort remember the name of (01:21:33) their best friend text them when they (01:21:36) had a hard meeting and say how did it go (01:21:38) plan a thoughtful date and so I think (01:21:41) that you have men over here saying if (01:21:42) I'm not six feet tall I don't have a (01:21:44) chance so why participate anyway and (01:21:47) then you have women saying in some ways (01:21:49) I just want you to be an effortful nice (01:21:52) person and I'm not even getting that and (01:21:54) so I think that for men they can (01:21:56) actually get much farther than they (01:21:58) think and be better than 90% of men by (01:22:01) doing some of these bare minimum things (01:22:02) that other men aren't doing so I have (01:22:05) this question that I ask in my book (01:22:07) which is when you're deciding if you (01:22:08) should break up with someone if your (01:22:10) partner were a piece of clothing in your (01:22:13) closet what would they be in my is it my (01:22:16) clothes or her clothes my clothes oh (01:22:18) okay and it really has to be gut (01:22:19) reaction so Scott if you thought of one (01:22:21) I want to hear (01:22:23) it I thought of like a black silk shirt (01:22:26) and that's probably because that's where (01:22:28) we spend quality time together is when (01:22:30) I'm wearing a black silk shirt special (01:22:31) occasions date night restaurant um make (01:22:35) an effort um do you feel good in it yeah (01:22:38) of course I feel my best in it yeah and (01:22:40) do you have one for your wife brunella (01:22:42) Cinelli Kashmir v-x sweater makes me (01:22:44) look fantastic makes me better and it's (01:22:46) beautiful yes and mine for my husband (01:22:48) would be this awesome orange robe that I (01:22:50) have that represents being at home I (01:22:53) love the orange color that's really (01:22:54) bright and it represents our family time (01:22:57) so I've asked this question to I feel (01:22:59) shamed I feel like mine was so (01:23:00) superficial no yours was great cashmir V (01:23:05) I think your answer family orange I feel (01:23:07) so shamed no no no I think your answer (01:23:09) is wonderful and I actually in general (01:23:11) find that outer wear answers are very (01:23:13) strong because it means that you feel (01:23:15) warm around them it's you at your best (01:23:17) this your I feel [ __ ] fabulous I (01:23:18) don't that's all that matters your (01:23:20) answer was great the answers that worry (01:23:22) me are something like a wool sweater (01:23:23) that feels good but then it's so I take (01:23:25) it off the ratty shirt that I wear to (01:23:27) the gym these are real answers I've (01:23:28) gotten point is for years I've been (01:23:30) asking people this question well now I (01:23:33) want to ask people the question of if (01:23:35) you were a piece of clothing in your (01:23:36) closet what would you be and I feel like (01:23:38) we spend so much time saying I'm looking (01:23:41) for this in a partner this is the (01:23:43) checklist well look in the mirror do you (01:23:45) have those traits and so for somebody (01:23:47) who says I'm a ratty sweatshirt and it's (01:23:51) not the thing that I would choose to (01:23:52) wear well then work on yourself and so I (01:23:55) feel like there's a lot of feelings of (01:23:58) I'm going to relation shop I'm going to (01:24:00) look for a partner the way I look for (01:24:02) Bluetooth headphones well a lot of that (01:24:04) is about breaking people down into these (01:24:06) parts and I feel like we should spend (01:24:08) less time thinking about the checklist (01:24:09) for our partner and more time thinking (01:24:11) about who am I and am I somebody who (01:24:13) would be (01:24:14) chosen we've talked a lot about how (01:24:16) young men are struggling which (01:24:18) demographic of women do you find (01:24:20) struggle the most as it relates to (01:24:22) mating and dating so I work with a lot (01:24:24) of very successful women and that's also (01:24:26) because I'm expensive to work with and (01:24:28) that's who my clients are but I have a (01:24:30) newsletter where I hear from 85,000 (01:24:33) people and so what I'm hearing is that a (01:24:36) lot of women are saying men are (01:24:38) intimidated by the amount of money that (01:24:41) I make they say that they're not going (01:24:43) to be but the more successful I become (01:24:45) the more threatened they are I'm just (01:24:47) talking to tons of women personal (01:24:48) friends I I feel like at my house on one (01:24:52) side of me and then two sides over are (01:24:54) women who are having babies they call it (01:24:57) like single mother by choice where they (01:24:59) literally were just like I can't find a (01:25:00) man and I want to become a mom so I'm (01:25:02) going to do it by myself and so I feel (01:25:04) like there are just all these great (01:25:06) women who are saying Logan I'm following (01:25:08) your advice I'm putting myself out there (01:25:09) I do all these things but they're just (01:25:11) not finding Partners do you find that (01:25:12) the more successful a woman becomes the (01:25:15) more difficult it becomes for her to (01:25:17) find a man that will not feel (01:25:19) emasculated by her success I don't think (01:25:21) that there's an exact correlation (01:25:24) because it really depends who the guy is (01:25:26) there are guys out there who are like (01:25:28) let's be a power couple but I feel like (01:25:30) there are women who just feel like (01:25:32) there's not enough good guys for them (01:25:34) and I'm curious what you think about (01:25:36) this but I live in the Bay Area I'm (01:25:37) seeing so much polyamory and I think (01:25:40) polyamory is interesting I'm Pro polyam (01:25:42) I like the fact that people are thinking (01:25:44) about relationship structures in a new (01:25:46) way 50% of marriag is end in divorce (01:25:48) obviously our one size fits all (01:25:50) approached marriage isn't working but (01:25:53) I'm also wondering (01:25:55) well let me tell you the story I went to (01:25:56) this dating event and the dating event (01:25:59) had five single women who were great and (01:26:02) their friends were hyping them up and (01:26:04) then there was two guys and they were (01:26:06) both polyamorous and so I wonder if (01:26:08) you're a guy who feels like there's not (01:26:10) that many good guys why should I have to (01:26:13) choose I feel like that's a trend that (01:26:15) I'm worried about pors of polygamy if (01:26:18) it's never been better to be a very (01:26:20) attractive male but you have so much (01:26:23) opportunity it does not and sent good (01:26:25) behavior or long-term relationships and (01:26:27) I work with these guys and you might (01:26:29) think that they're the happiest people (01:26:30) in the world they are having sex they (01:26:31) are getting a lot of attention but (01:26:33) they're suffering from decision (01:26:35) paralysis and these are some of the guys (01:26:37) that hit 40 42 and they haven't gotten (01:26:40) married they don't have kids and they (01:26:42) sort of are like why would I ever settle (01:26:44) down if I don't have to or I'm going to (01:26:47) wait as long as possible but they don't (01:26:49) understand the opportunity cost which is (01:26:51) building a life with someone having kids (01:26:54) every year year that you wait to have (01:26:55) kids is a year that your kids will be (01:26:57) alive without you and so I really feel (01:27:00) like these people in the top percentage (01:27:02) yes they're having a much easier time (01:27:04) but they also have problems because (01:27:06) they're having decision paralysis and (01:27:08) they're not settling down but I I would (01:27:10) just I think the reality though on the (01:27:12) ground is that if you're a (01:27:15) High um status male you think age is on (01:27:19) your side and it is and because the (01:27:22) reality is the bi the math is just (01:27:24) unfair to women it is because if you're (01:27:27) a 30-year-old male making really good (01:27:29) money and it you know relative like just (01:27:32) not (01:27:33) unattractive at (01:27:35) 40 you're going to be even sexier your (01:27:38) sexual currency goes up I do think that (01:27:41) there's a point where it starts to go (01:27:42) down and I've seen that with my coaching (01:27:44) clients and part of that is just how the (01:27:46) dating apps work that if you are an (01:27:49) attractive woman and you set your age (01:27:52) maximum at 40 I do see that those men (01:27:54) see diminishing returns after that age (01:27:56) well especially if they haven't ever (01:27:57) been in a long-term relationship seen as (01:27:59) a clear red (01:28:01) flag if you're looking to take the next (01:28:03) step in your Tech Career you'll want to (01:28:05) hear about our sponsor Inuit I've always (01:28:07) believed that if you want to do your (01:28:09) best work you have to put 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(01:29:35) flavored matcha powders that I have here (01:29:36) in front of me perfect Ted matcha is (01:29:39) ceremonial grade and soured from Japan (01:29:41) it is smooth it is naturally sweet not (01:29:43) like those bitter grassy matches that I (01:29:46) tried before perfect Ted and if you are (01:29:48) one of those people that have told (01:29:49) yourself you don't like matcha it's (01:29:51) probably because you haven't tried our (01:29:53) perfect Ted matcha and you can find (01:29:54) perfect Ted match in the UK in Tesco (01:29:56) Sainsbury's Holland and Barett and in (01:29:58) waitrose or Albert Hine if you're in the (01:30:00) Netherlands and on Amazon in the USA or (01:30:03) get the full range online at perfect.com (01:30:06) where you can get 40% off your first (01:30:09) order with code Steven (01:30:13) 40 what role does feminism and the rise (01:30:16) of feminism play in all of this because (01:30:18) I've had people on my podcast I think (01:30:20) actually our last episode we published (01:30:21) was a lady who's a child psychologist (01:30:23) she's been that way for three decad ades (01:30:25) and she came on and said that the (01:30:27) feminist movement has let men and women (01:30:29) down in some ways there's been great (01:30:31) upsides but there's also been a cost and (01:30:33) one of the things she was really big on (01:30:35) which I thought would be extremely (01:30:36) controversial it turns out it wasn't in (01:30:37) the comment section is that she believes (01:30:39) women should be there for the first two (01:30:42) years of a child's life and I was like I (01:30:45) questioned her on that I was like and (01:30:46) then I looked at the stats and I looked (01:30:47) at the research and she basically makes (01:30:49) the case that because the the mother is (01:30:50) producing certain hormones so I searched (01:30:52) and it was true we fact checked that (01:30:54) episode (01:30:54) and then beyond there the the the man (01:30:57) her father brings out another set of (01:30:59) hormones in the in the young child which (01:31:00) are about play and adventure and all (01:31:02) these kinds of things so she makes the (01:31:04) case that we've kind of lied to women (01:31:05) and we've told them that they can have (01:31:07) it all they can have an incredible (01:31:09) career they can also be incredible (01:31:10) mothers and um she says that in her (01:31:13) office she often sees mothers coming in (01:31:14) saying that they're 39 years old they're (01:31:16) struggling they're trying to do IVF they (01:31:19) feel like they were lied to throwing all (01:31:21) of that out there I'm going to quote (01:31:23) Scott to Scott which is you can have it (01:31:25) all just not at the same time yeah I (01:31:27) don't you know it's we can talk about (01:31:30) what is the best hormone balance and (01:31:32) brings out the best in kids and then (01:31:33) there's the real world and my partner (01:31:37) was working at Goldman Sachs with two (01:31:38) babies and getting up at 5: in the (01:31:40) morning and it was hell for her and at (01:31:42) the same time and I you know at the same (01:31:45) time I was struggling with trying to get (01:31:47) economic traction because my whole (01:31:50) identity as a man I'm not proud of this (01:31:52) has been defined by money so is mine I (01:31:55) don't think men say this enough like (01:31:56) yeah of I I thought this was really (01:31:59) weird cuz I'm we're we're in Austin (01:32:00) right now and my team put me up in a (01:32:04) hotel and it's just like a normal Hotel (01:32:06) I'm like so I don't give a [ __ ] my (01:32:07) girlfriend comes to town tonight (01:32:09) immediately my brain goes oh my God we (01:32:11) need to move into a better Hotel Airbnb (01:32:13) because my girlfriend I've been with her (01:32:14) for seven years she doesn't give off H (01:32:15) yeah she doesn't care about material (01:32:17) things she doesn't have a Louis Vuitton (01:32:18) anything she's a breath work she's a (01:32:20) yogi right but there's still this part (01:32:22) of me even at this stage where I'm like (01:32:23) convinced she's not going anywhere where (01:32:26) I constantly think (01:32:28) about I need to be successful I need to (01:32:31) have money I need to demonstrate (01:32:33) strength or she won't like me it's so (01:32:37) it's so weird because it's not true like (01:32:39) objectively I know it's not true but (01:32:40) it's in me I don't know I think it's (01:32:42) mostly true what do you mean I think in (01:32:45) a capitalist Society the health care of (01:32:48) your children the opportunities your (01:32:49) children have your ability to provide (01:32:54) your ability to take care of your (01:32:56) parents unfortunately in our society is (01:32:58) so tightly correlated to money yeah that (01:33:02) I I think at the end of the day (01:33:03) masculinity kind of comes down to (01:33:06) provider protector and procreator and I (01:33:08) think every young man should take at (01:33:10) least start with the notion they're (01:33:12) going to be the economic provider and by (01:33:15) the way that might mean getting out of (01:33:17) the way and being more supportive of (01:33:18) your partner who happens to be better at (01:33:19) the whole money thing than you that's (01:33:21) part of masculinity too but a good place (01:33:23) to start is to assume in a capital (01:33:26) society that you're just you have a (01:33:29) responsibility to be economically viable (01:33:31) and every piece of incentive in our (01:33:35) society I remember in the 70s when I was (01:33:37) in grade school our principal was a cool (01:33:40) guy he wore cool jackets and he had (01:33:42) great hair and he smelled Aqua Velva and (01:33:44) he drove a 240Z you could be a High (01:33:46) character handsome interesting cool guy (01:33:48) into karate or whatever now I just think (01:33:50) it's all about the (01:33:52) Benjamins I just it is so our society (01:33:56) democracy your rights your sexual (01:33:58) attractiveness as a man I don't care (01:34:00) what yeah write me an article about how (01:34:03) men just need to be emotionally (01:34:04) available [ __ ] it's it's so (01:34:08) disappointingly about money in my view (01:34:11) all the incentives telling young men and (01:34:13) so they go to these get-rich quick (01:34:15) schemes if they can make money they feel (01:34:17) they feel like losers but what you're (01:34:20) feeling quite frankly is common sense (01:34:22) from every signal that if for some (01:34:24) reason it doesn't work out with your (01:34:25) mate your selection set of mates how (01:34:28) interesting you are to other men your (01:34:30) opportunities your rights your democracy (01:34:33) is going to be based on your ability to (01:34:35) be economically powerful it's not the (01:34:37) way the world should be but it is the (01:34:39) way the world is and when I say to young (01:34:40) men is there's just no getting around it (01:34:43) you have to be economically viable would (01:34:45) you say the same thing to women or would (01:34:47) you say there's no getting around it you (01:34:49) have to be hot no I think women I think (01:34:53) women (01:34:55) unfortunately so this is base analysis (01:34:58) women men get turned on with their eyes (01:35:01) it's more important for a woman to be (01:35:03) aesthetically attractive than a man we (01:35:05) men women get turned on with their ears (01:35:07) that's the way I would describe it I (01:35:10) think women economic Liberation and (01:35:12) Independence is Paramount you know the (01:35:15) thing that was the hardest thing in my (01:35:16) life growing up you know whatever trauma (01:35:19) I had was not having wasn't not having a (01:35:22) dad in my life it was that me and my mom (01:35:23) didn't any [ __ ] money and it was (01:35:25) humiliating for us it was very hard on (01:35:28) her it was emotionally very trying on (01:35:30) her because she felt like she was (01:35:31) failing as a mother so I think women (01:35:35) Absolut women making a lot of money is a (01:35:39) collective victory of our society it is (01:35:42) hugely important and wonderful we should (01:35:44) do nothing to get in the way of that (01:35:46) that doesn't in any way though obviate (01:35:49) the fact that a man's opportunity sexual (01:35:52) currency and place in our society (01:35:54) is almost going to have an R of one (01:35:57) regardless of how many subscriptions to (01:35:58) the Atlantic or the New York Times you (01:36:00) have if his economic viability and I (01:36:04) just don't I think it's gotten worse I I (01:36:06) don't think it's got you used to be able (01:36:08) to if you were a High character kind of (01:36:10) cool interesting nice guy who was a (01:36:11) principal at a junior high school you (01:36:14) had sexual currency now I think you can (01:36:16) be a [ __ ] [ __ ] but if you've sold (01:36:18) $10 million in DOA coin you can get laid (01:36:22) and and it's just getting worse because (01:36:24) our capitalist economy is providing so (01:36:27) many advantages solely based on money (01:36:30) and it sends the wrong signal but I just (01:36:33) tell I just tell dudes you have to be (01:36:35) economically viable and some of that is (01:36:37) just having discipline around saving (01:36:39) money and showing that you have your (01:36:41) active maybe you don't make a lot of (01:36:42) money but I'm responsible I'll be a good (01:36:45) mate I'll be a good partner maybe you're (01:36:47) making more money to me but I'll bring (01:36:49) discipline you know I I I know how to (01:36:51) fix [ __ ] I I can be a good (01:36:54) but one of the things I really am (01:36:56) worried about in America is just (01:36:58) everything has become About the (01:37:00) Benjamins character is being squeezed (01:37:03) out by (01:37:05) money God that sounded (01:37:08) awful I want to ask you have you ever (01:37:10) felt what Scott describes have you ever (01:37:12) felt that your sort of sense of (01:37:13) selfworth equates to how much money you (01:37:16) have because I felt that I don't think I (01:37:18) as much have money equals identity and (01:37:22) selfworth but I do think for many people (01:37:25) there's a sense that money equals (01:37:27) security and so we're all chasing that (01:37:29) dollar which is security but I think for (01:37:31) men it's much stronger I don't relate to (01:37:34) what you're talking about yeah so this (01:37:36) is I've never actually asked a woman (01:37:37) this before but um it's the number one (01:37:41) topic of conversation in my group chat (01:37:43) with my boys is how much are we working (01:37:46) Saturday and Sunday to make more money (01:37:47) make ourselves more successful and then (01:37:49) one of my friends who's not in my group (01:37:50) chat but one of my extended friends went (01:37:52) through financial hard hardship (01:37:54) and um he's in the leadup to starting a (01:37:57) family Etc and he went through a moment (01:37:59) where he was going to be declared (01:38:00) bankrupt and he was (01:38:04) inconsolably um depressed his partner (01:38:06) was fine she was kind of like you know (01:38:07) we'll get through this but he as it was (01:38:09) like his he actually said to me he goes (01:38:11) I've never quote I've never felt more (01:38:13) worthless and that's something that I've (01:38:14) heard echoed by many men who go you know (01:38:17) go through sort of economic uh Financial (01:38:19) roller coasters and that was actually (01:38:21) one of the stats in that report the boys (01:38:24) reporter Richard Reeves talks about this (01:38:26) I think that's actually where it comes (01:38:27) from so Richard Reeves says that the (01:38:30) number one cause of death for young men (01:38:32) under 15 is suicide and that men in (01:38:35) general the things that they describe in (01:38:37) their notes when they commit suicide are (01:38:39) these (01:38:40) words worthless and useless and so if (01:38:44) men feel like their identity and their (01:38:46) value and their worth comes from money (01:38:49) when they don't have money or they can't (01:38:50) be a provider and they're sort of on the (01:38:53) edge of Society then they're literally (01:38:55) opting out sometimes with their (01:38:58) lives okay I want to take the (01:38:59) metaphorical iPad and ask you guys some (01:39:01) questions because I feel like I've kind (01:39:03) of said what I want to say about this (01:39:05) topic but I'm sure there are just (01:39:07) millions of people that look up to both (01:39:09) of you as symbols of masculinity Scott (01:39:12) this is true right moms talk to you all (01:39:13) the time and say how can I help my son (01:39:15) and so like there's things that I want (01:39:17) to know because this topic is the thing (01:39:19) I'm most passionate about I want to (01:39:21) spend the next five years really helping (01:39:23) with this problem and the mating Gap but (01:39:26) I don't know that men will listen to me (01:39:28) but they will listen to you so I want to (01:39:30) learn from you so if you could teach a (01:39:33) dating boot camp to all guys and even (01:39:37) talk about what you would have them (01:39:38) unlearn what are some of those (01:39:41) messages I would dating boot camp yeah (01:39:44) um or being a human boot camp let's just (01:39:46) extend we have module one comedy oo (01:39:50) because the only thing that got me laid (01:39:51) when I was broke was I was like slightly (01:39:53) funny sometimes yeah I could be broken (01:39:56) impr this could be just this yeah keep (01:39:59) going um something around confidence (01:40:01) which is just standing I noticed that (01:40:03) posture correlates to dating success so (01:40:05) I'd have men learn to to stand up (01:40:08) straight and to control their posture (01:40:09) and take up more space and I mean that (01:40:11) in the nicest possible way which is (01:40:12) don't be shriveled so like stand up (01:40:15) standing up straight which is obviously (01:40:16) one of the things that going to the gym (01:40:17) does it kind of pulls you out a little (01:40:18) bit as well typical um but going out of (01:40:22) fashion male manners (01:40:24) open up the door I still open up the (01:40:26) door for my girlfriend every single day (01:40:28) even though apparently they went through (01:40:29) a phase where that was seen as like not (01:40:31) okay to do but I've always taken great (01:40:33) pride in it and funnily enough opening (01:40:35) up the door for my partner makes me feel (01:40:36) good I'm like doing it for selfish (01:40:38) reasons it makes me feel like a man it (01:40:40) makes me feel strong also like when a (01:40:42) bus comes I love the fact that I put my (01:40:43) hand across my girlfriend that for me (01:40:45) makes me feel like a man I love that (01:40:47) when we cross a road I'm the one that's (01:40:49) looking out I love that I stand on the (01:40:51) the roads side of the pavement Etc so I (01:40:52) teach men these kind of behaviors and (01:40:55) definitely going to the gym and then as (01:40:57) Scott said like entrepreneurship or (01:40:59) making some money that would be Central (01:41:01) to my boot C I'll give you one (01:41:03) more it would be conflict resolution and (01:41:07) this goes to like the emotional empathy (01:41:09) point one thing that I struggle with or (01:41:11) at least I struggled with until my (01:41:12) girlfriend coached me and I did this (01:41:14) podcast so many times that I learned (01:41:16) some lessons is just how to deal with (01:41:17) conflict um when when the spiring (01:41:20) partner is a woman because men in (01:41:21) Conflict we have a certain way typically (01:41:23) but learning the skill of hearing and (01:41:26) understanding your partner and which is (01:41:29) very difficult and like listen this (01:41:31) might just be me I find it incredibly (01:41:33) difficult to sit and to listen to my (01:41:37) partner for 90 minutes when she tells me (01:41:39) indirectly all the things I did wrong (01:41:42) I've had to learn the skill of doing (01:41:43) that and I I sat here with someone who's (01:41:45) a psychologist and said um she they they (01:41:47) said to me if you're a man you have to (01:41:49) learn the skill of sitting down for n 90 (01:41:51) minutes a week and letting your partner (01:41:53) tell you everything that they're feeling (01:41:55) and going through with my boys we don't (01:41:57) do that when we go on holiday it is (01:41:59) total silence we what we're eating (01:42:00) [ __ ] Pringles and watching the game (01:42:03) when but when I'm with my partner and (01:42:04) I'm sure when she's with her friends (01:42:06) it's talking so I I always I I've (01:42:09) developed the skill now of just like (01:42:10) sitting and listening and then sometimes (01:42:13) I take notes and then sometimes I repeat (01:42:15) back to her what she just said to me and (01:42:16) this is totally alien to me and it hurts (01:42:19) when I do it it like hurts and I find it (01:42:22) so uncomfortable (01:42:24) like I find it really really (01:42:25) uncomfortable to do that even though (01:42:26) this is something you spend hours a week (01:42:28) doing for 100% it's so unnatural to me (01:42:31) but you've worked on it I've worked on (01:42:33) it yeah I did it like three days ago my (01:42:34) girlfriend said I was traveling around (01:42:36) the world we were in I don't even know (01:42:38) what country we're in she goes I I've (01:42:39) got some things I want to talk about um (01:42:41) can we put some time in the calendar do (01:42:43) you have 60 minutes I'm I've gone off (01:42:45) stage in Sweden I put in 60 minutes into (01:42:46) my calendar she video calls me and she (01:42:49) talks to me for about 45 minutes I don't (01:42:52) have anything to say I'm so and I just (01:42:53) sit there and listen and in between the (01:42:55) lines it's like things I could do better (01:42:57) she's she's not blaming me or anything (01:42:58) but it's it's hard for me my boys would (01:43:01) never do that our friendship isn't (01:43:03) contingent on those things so that's (01:43:05) what I would say I love that like I (01:43:07) don't know if that you relate to that (01:43:09) but I think about this a lot with my (01:43:10) boys and I think kind of the three legs (01:43:13) of the stool are provider I'm probably (01:43:16) over focused on the economics that (01:43:17) doesn't necess mean making a lot of (01:43:19) money but at least being disciplined and (01:43:20) responsible about it developing skills (01:43:23) certific having a plan right be don't be (01:43:26) the guy ordering a bottle of Grey Goose (01:43:27) at 2 in the morning like I'm going home (01:43:29) because I got to get up you know I have (01:43:30) I have a (01:43:32) plan (01:43:33) and you know I have a vision for how I'm (01:43:36) going to be a good provider a protector (01:43:39) good manners your default system is (01:43:43) protection you you constantly talk speak (01:43:46) well of people behind their backs you (01:43:48) hear someone being critical of someone (01:43:50) else your (01:43:51) inclination is to defend them you don't (01:43:55) demonize special interest groups your (01:43:57) default setting if somebody needs help (01:43:59) anywhere or is being threatened it just (01:44:03) it's so heartbreaking to me that women (01:44:05) feel unsafe when they see men when they (01:44:08) see a group of men coming down the (01:44:10) street survey show women are inclined to (01:44:12) cross the street and it just feels like (01:44:15) from an early age men need to be taught (01:44:18) anyone smaller anyone more vulnerable (01:44:20) than you anyone in a special interest (01:44:22) group you're def fault is protection (01:44:25) that's what men do think about (01:44:26) masculinity a soldier a cop a fireman (01:44:30) what do they do at the end of the day (01:44:31) they protect that is your default (01:44:34) operating system as a move to protection (01:44:37) and then (01:44:37) procreator I think you should want to (01:44:39) have sex I think you should be willing (01:44:41) to take risks I tell my boys I did this (01:44:44) for a while they can't get back in the (01:44:46) house unless they talk to a (01:44:49) stranger and my oldest no problem hey (01:44:52) what's going on what my youngest not as (01:44:56) easy just go up and pet their dog I (01:44:59) think there are so many men out there (01:45:00) that have no willingness or ability to (01:45:03) open (01:45:05) to you know to just say hi where are you (01:45:09) from to just open and to want a romantic (01:45:14) relationship is a wonderful thing (01:45:16) there's nothing wrong with that modulate (01:45:19) your porn (01:45:21) decide ask yourself would you want to (01:45:23) have sex with you get strong get fit get (01:45:27) get your act together smell nice groom (01:45:32) if you can't dress well find someone who (01:45:34) can dress you and initiate contact and (01:45:38) want to have a relationship with someone (01:45:41) that's a wonderful thing that Mojo is (01:45:44) the the most purposeful wonderful thing (01:45:46) in my life is that I'm raising two (01:45:50) patriotic decent men and it started with (01:45:53) me really wanting to have sex with this (01:45:55) woman I saw at the pool at the Raleigh (01:45:57) Hotel right and I know that sounds crass (01:45:59) it's like I looked at her and thought I (01:46:01) am really attracted to this woman so I'm (01:46:03) going to take a risk in the middle of (01:46:05) the day without the benefit of alcohol (01:46:07) I'm going to walk up and introduce (01:46:08) myself to her and another guy and woman (01:46:11) she was with hey where are you guys from (01:46:13) and then 18 months later our first son (01:46:14) was born middle named Raleigh after the (01:46:17) hotel take risks be want to have meeting (01:46:22) opportunity (01:46:24) you're a provider your default system is (01:46:27) a protector and there's nothing wrong (01:46:30) with wanting to be a (01:46:31) procreator I love everything you said (01:46:34) and then one thing was going through my (01:46:35) head as you said it was it feels really (01:46:37) sad that in this moment at time we have (01:46:39) to tell people to become procreators (01:46:42) don't you feel like there's something (01:46:43) sick in our society if that has to be (01:46:46) taught evolutionarily all of our (01:46:49) software is towards procreation like (01:46:52) that is we are wired yet people are so (01:46:55) sick from the food that they eat from (01:46:57) all the medications that people are on (01:46:59) from all the pornography from all the (01:47:01) technology that you literally have to (01:47:03) teach your sons the importance of (01:47:04) procreation and that's why I'm here and (01:47:06) that's why I'm really freaked out by all (01:47:08) of this stuff because we are at a point (01:47:10) in society where in South Korea of a (01:47:14) hundred people of childbearing age they (01:47:17) are going to produce 12 grandchildren (01:47:20) based on a seven birth rate and the fact (01:47:24) that you talk about the PE of (01:47:26) procreation like I'm so worried about (01:47:28) our society it's 60% of 4 of 30y olds 40 (01:47:33) years ago used to have a kid now it's (01:47:35) 27% so when I was on the plane on the (01:47:38) way here I told this woman who was (01:47:39) sitting next to me what I was going to (01:47:40) be talking about and her gut reaction (01:47:42) was oh why do we have to worry about (01:47:44) that women are doing better than men (01:47:46) like great let us do that for the first (01:47:47) time in history like her gut reaction (01:47:49) was why is this a problem I then I (01:47:51) started telling her these stats around (01:47:54) lowest um marriage rate near we're (01:47:57) approaching the lowest marriage rate in (01:47:59) US history the birth rate has gone down (01:48:02) 20% in 20 years and she didn't know (01:48:04) these numbers and I feel like people are (01:48:05) afraid to talk about this topic because (01:48:07) they think it's a zero sum game where (01:48:10) when men lose women win and vice versa (01:48:13) but right now we're all losing there's (01:48:15) huge economic impact too because it used (01:48:17) to be 12 people working age to support (01:48:19) every senior now it's 3 to one if we (01:48:21) don't have kids we're going to go into (01:48:24) economic decline yeah South Korea is (01:48:25) replacing its Nursery schools with its (01:48:27) nursing homes like they are the anti- (01:48:30) example for us and I think people need (01:48:31) to be paying attention by 2050 about 40% (01:48:34) of the population will be senior (01:48:35) citizens in the labor force could have (01:48:36) hared within the next 40 years the bank (01:48:40) of Korea warns that if current trends (01:48:42) persist the Korean economy could begin (01:48:43) Contracting in 10 years (01:48:45) time and this presents a national (01:48:48) service risk as the country relies on (01:48:51) its conscripted military this will fall (01:48:54) by hundreds and hundreds of thousands of (01:48:55) people by 2025 the half oh my gosh could (01:48:59) fall from 250,000 troops to 125,000 (01:49:03) troops politics is the last thing I (01:49:06) wanted to talk about and how this sort (01:49:08) of intertwines with um everything we've (01:49:10) talked about today obviously Trump is (01:49:12) now in power and um as we saw in the (01:49:15) data and it was touched on earlier on (01:49:16) young men have become more right leing (01:49:18) and more conservative than ever (01:49:20) before the left hasn't necessarily (01:49:22) offered the best Best vision of (01:49:23) masculinity the young men is something (01:49:25) Scots talked about previously I was (01:49:27) wondering I think this morning in the (01:49:28) hotel I was wondering I was like how are (01:49:31) how is the left going to get men (01:49:34) back is that possible because the vision (01:49:37) of masculinity this is something Scotts (01:49:39) talked about that the left portrays is (01:49:41) not doesn't seem to be in line with all (01:49:43) the things we've just described that we (01:49:44) feel intuitively as men the things we (01:49:46) think are important like economic (01:49:48) viability being strong you know all (01:49:52) that's SK goovers (01:49:54) well on the right they've (01:49:56) conflated masculinity with coarseness (01:49:58) and cruelty the two kind of Role (01:50:02) Models you know president Trump who in (01:50:06) my opinion (01:50:08) demonstrates a lack of Grace and a lack (01:50:11) of empathy and a lack of kindness and (01:50:13) Elon Musk is concurrently being sued by (01:50:15) two women for sole (01:50:18) custody of their their kid because he (01:50:20) hasn't seen the kid I mean is that those (01:50:22) are the role models we want for young (01:50:24) men and on the left their vision of (01:50:28) masculinity is act more like a woman I (01:50:30) don't think that's helpful either I went (01:50:32) to the Democratic National (01:50:34) Convention and there was a parade of (01:50:36) special interest groups everyone was (01:50:38) represented except for the group that (01:50:40) needs the most representation right now (01:50:41) in my view and that is young men if you (01:50:43) go to the DNC website they list 16 (01:50:45) special interest groups and they say who (01:50:47) we serve they call it out who we (01:50:49) serve Asian Pacific Islanders seniors (01:50:52) the disabled (01:50:53) immigrants black Americans and I added (01:50:56) it up it's 74% of the US population and (01:51:00) when you say you're actively advocating (01:51:02) for (01:51:03) 74% you're not advocating for the 74% (01:51:06) you're discriminating against the 26% (01:51:08) and who are the 26% young men is this a (01:51:11) consequence of Dei I think that's part (01:51:13) of it I think there's been so many (01:51:15) groups that have been discriminated (01:51:17) against and the the way I would just (01:51:19) Loosely describe the Democratic party is (01:51:21) we have the right ideas and then we just (01:51:22) take it to too far you know there were (01:51:25) women have gotten a raw deal so they (01:51:28) need Advantage you know gays have been (01:51:30) persecuted people non-whites have had (01:51:33) there were 12 black people in 60 years (01:51:36) ago in Princeton Harvard and Yale (01:51:38) combined that was a problem this year (01:51:41) more than 60% of Harvard's Freshman (01:51:43) Class identify as non-white so I think (01:51:45) we got to get out of identity politics (01:51:48) but the notion I I this this it largely (01:51:53) came from the left this notion of toxic (01:51:55) masculinity there's no such thing (01:51:58) because there's violence there's people (01:52:00) are criminals there's people who are (01:52:02) unkind that means they're not masculine (01:52:05) masculinity is being a protector a (01:52:07) provider a procreator and the Democratic (01:52:10) party seems to believe that leaning into (01:52:12) anything around your advantage of being (01:52:15) male in terms of your strength your (01:52:17) kindness you're wanting to procreate (01:52:19) you're initiating sexual contact or sex (01:52:22) romantic interest (01:52:23) is somehow a threat and somehow toxic I (01:52:27) just think they've sent absolutely the (01:52:29) right wrong signal and into that void (01:52:32) has stepped basically thinly veiled (01:52:35) misogyny that is just so ugly you know (01:52:39) the the the and and he Trump flew right (01:52:43) into it the reason Trump won this (01:52:45) election in my view is the groups that (01:52:47) pivoted hardest from Blue to Red 2020 to (01:52:51) 2024 were Latinos were sick of being (01:52:53) categorized by their identity but (01:52:55) numbers two and three were people under (01:52:57) the age of 30 especially males who are (01:52:59) not doing very well and feel like Donald (01:53:01) Trump feels their pain and women age 45 (01:53:04) to 64 and my thesis is that's their (01:53:06) mothers because if your son isn't doing (01:53:09) well you don't care about territorial (01:53:10) sovereignty and Ukraine or transgender (01:53:12) rights you just want to change my son (01:53:14) isn't doing well those are the people (01:53:16) that whisper to me in the streets about (01:53:18) these conversations it's the 40 to 55y (01:53:22) old mother who has a son who doesn't (01:53:25) feel like she can speak up but says to (01:53:27) me privately that she's worried about (01:53:29) her her kids and actually we had some y (01:53:31) some mothers right in all of which (01:53:32) wanted to stay Anonymous saying this (01:53:35) exact same thing they've got an (01:53:36) 18-year-old son they're super concerned (01:53:38) they've got a 16-year-old son the son (01:53:39) looks lost um as the stats show from the (01:53:42) report they're not leaving home in the (01:53:44) same way that women their daughters (01:53:46) leave home but they don't know what to (01:53:48) do about it so for those parents that (01:53:50) are listening now we can't change (01:53:52) society (01:53:53) um what would you recommend a parent of (01:53:55) a young (01:53:57) boy does first thing is forgive yourself (01:54:01) there's this (01:54:02) natural part of a separation where and I (01:54:06) think this is true of girls but (01:54:08) especially boys where to make the (01:54:11) separation easier we don't get along (01:54:13) with our parents in our senior year in (01:54:16) high school (01:54:17) and that doesn't mean your son doesn't (01:54:19) love you that doesn't mean your son's (01:54:20) not going to figure it out but to (01:54:22) forgive yourself (01:54:23) there's but going back to more (01:54:26) actionable things try and get male uh (01:54:29) try and get men involved in his (01:54:32) life um and then you know dumb stuff (01:54:35) like my mom made sure I was in Boy (01:54:37) Scouts my mom when I got caught from the (01:54:39) high school basketball and football team (01:54:41) she enrolled me in City League so I (01:54:43) could continue to play sports but it was (01:54:46) mostly she was ensured that I had men in (01:54:48) my life and I think that was really (01:54:51) really important for me but I you know I (01:54:53) would just say that I feel like I need (01:54:56) to coach men more like what I say to boy (01:54:59) one of the first thing I say to boys I (01:55:01) had lunch with and was never I had lunch (01:55:04) with someone who's a fairly famous news (01:55:05) anchor and her son and I asked the mom (01:55:08) to EXC they started going at it and I (01:55:10) asked the mom to excuse herself and I (01:55:12) said to the mom I'm like you realize (01:55:13) this is the only person in your life (01:55:16) ever that wants you to be more (01:55:17) successful than you you just got to cut (01:55:20) this [ __ ] out this woman is not your (01:55:21) enemy (01:55:23) because and I heard that and I was sh I (01:55:26) was a bit ashamed because I remember (01:55:28) like being such an [ __ ] to my mother (01:55:30) you know so I think but I think I could (01:55:34) say that to him because I could look him (01:55:36) in the eyes and say what the [ __ ] you (01:55:38) doing so I just think that male (01:55:41) involvement for single (01:55:43) mothers and I think men are really (01:55:45) willing to get involved whether it's (01:55:47) someone down the street a coach your you (01:55:50) know a sibling your brother whatever it (01:55:51) is but I do think again the research (01:55:54) shows that the the the point of failure (01:55:58) is when a boy loses a male role model (01:56:01) and also to forgive yourself being a (01:56:04) single parent with a son I think that's (01:56:06) hard I just think it's hard Logan you've (01:56:09) got some questions I can see right pce (01:56:11) of paper I do have some questions for (01:56:12) Scott but I would love for you to answer (01:56:13) them too so one of them is what is (01:56:17) something about being a man that you (01:56:19) learned growing up that you have had to (01:56:22) unlearn (01:56:23) and I'm wondering specifically and how (01:56:25) you're raising your sons to avoid some (01:56:27) of those (01:56:28) things I think a (01:56:30) great proxy for masculinity and manhood (01:56:33) is and Richard reev introduced me to (01:56:35) this I think it's so powerful and that a (01:56:36) surplus (01:56:37) value it's not about a religious (01:56:40) ceremony it's not about having sex it's (01:56:42) not about an age it's about getting to (01:56:44) the point of surplus (01:56:46) value you create more tax revenue than (01:56:49) you absorb I say to my boys your (01:56:51) negative value look at all the resources (01:56:54) going into look at all the love we love (01:56:56) you so much more than you love us your (01:56:59) teachers are spending all this time in (01:57:00) energy and you're giving you aren't (01:57:01) giving anything back at some point that (01:57:04) needs to Pivot so creating more tax (01:57:08) revenue noticing people's life (01:57:11) registering more complaints from other (01:57:13) people than you are complaining (01:57:15) protecting people you know adding (01:57:18) Surplus value so you know these Notions (01:57:22) that (01:57:23) and and I wasn't that guy I wanted more (01:57:27) from everyone else than I was giving I (01:57:29) was the guy that's when someone honked (01:57:30) to me I was a guy that sped up and honk (01:57:32) back to restore the universe to its (01:57:34) place if a Delta if a if a ticket (01:57:38) counter agent at the airline counter was (01:57:39) rude to me I needed to get back in their (01:57:41) face to restore Harmony to the universe (01:57:43) because I'm a [ __ ] baller and what (01:57:45) you realize is being a man is (01:57:47) occasionally taking a hit right it's (01:57:49) having Surplus value it's noticing (01:57:51) people's lives it's listening to (01:57:53) complaints it's occasionally thinking (01:57:55) well maybe this person who com me off in (01:57:57) traffic I don't know what's going on (01:57:58) with them maybe their kid has diabetes (01:57:59) maybe they're going through divorce it's (01:58:01) adding more value than you're taking and (01:58:04) until the age of like 40 I looked at (01:58:08) every relationship am I getting more out (01:58:09) of this than I'm giving and if I'm not (01:58:11) I'm out and what you realize is good (01:58:14) business Partnerships you add as much or (01:58:16) more value than your partners good (01:58:18) relationships you witness the person's (01:58:20) life you make them feel [ __ ] awesome (01:58:22) if you leave this world a little bit in (01:58:24) debt that's the whole point that's the (01:58:28) whole point or a little bit the world's (01:58:30) in debt to you that's the win and I used (01:58:33) to think as a young man that meant I (01:58:36) needed to exit the relationship I'm not (01:58:38) getting more money or Services than I'm (01:58:40) giving I'm not getting more kindness (01:58:42) than I'm not giving I'm not getting more (01:58:44) hot experiences with this romantic (01:58:45) partner than they're giving me I'm out (01:58:47) no it's the other way around being a man (01:58:50) is Surplus value yeah I've never thought (01:58:53) about that before but it's so true that (01:58:55) like as a man you should aspire to be (01:58:58) considered (01:59:00) generous and actually the first time (01:59:02) someone called me generous was like such (01:59:03) an unbelievably wonderful compliment to (01:59:05) me because it means that people see you (01:59:07) as someone that's giving things but to (01:59:09) answer your question for me it was just (01:59:11) um a willingness to express my emotions (01:59:14) when I'm struggling that's like the (01:59:16) that's always been the difficult thing (01:59:18) for me especially because of everything (01:59:19) I've said earlier about wanting to be (01:59:21) strong wanting to be a provider there (01:59:22) are going to be moments where regardless (01:59:24) of how well you play the the game of (01:59:25) life you're going to struggle and I did (01:59:27) not have the tools I still really don't (01:59:29) have great tools for this but to turn to (01:59:31) someone and say I'm really struggling (01:59:33) with this and not to feel (01:59:34) emasculated um and I would say that (01:59:37) because as a (01:59:40) man pretty much the only person you have (01:59:42) in your life typically that you can turn (01:59:44) to is your your your your romantic (01:59:47) partner that's also the last person you (01:59:49) want to turn to and say you're (01:59:50) struggling because again for me that (01:59:51) felt like I was being emasculated so I (01:59:53) remember the day very vividly when I was (01:59:55) like 30 years old turning to my (01:59:58) girlfriend and like running the (02:00:00) experiment of letting her know that I (02:00:02) was struggling with (02:00:04) something and how difficult that was but (02:00:06) the only reason I did it was because I (02:00:08) almost felt like I had no [ __ ] choice (02:00:10) I I'd like gotten to the point I was (02:00:12) like I need to tell someone this and she (02:00:14) was the the only person and I still (02:00:16) don't think I'd tell my my guy friends (02:00:19) everything I would tell them some things (02:00:21) but I don't think I'd tell them (02:00:22) everything and when I look at the stats (02:00:24) around mental health and depression (02:00:25) which are absolutely horrific and some (02:00:27) of these quotes that we had from some of (02:00:28) the guys that wrote Into the show this (02:00:30) guy Liam said for me the biggest (02:00:31) challenge that young men face today is I (02:00:33) feel like I'm striving for meaning but I (02:00:36) can't find it anywhere I struggle to (02:00:37) even sleep at night with some form of (02:00:40) substance because my brain is constantly (02:00:41) firing different scenarios at me that (02:00:43) I'm failing in my life when I am alone (02:00:45) with my thoughts it's like having (02:00:46) never-ending lesson about how useless I (02:00:48) am and how I need to change everything (02:00:50) in my life and the hardest part is I (02:00:51) can't even tell anybody this because I (02:00:53) would feel weak and then this guy (02:00:56) Jeffrey wrote in and said my entire life (02:00:58) I've never felt like I was good enough (02:01:00) like I could never earn my place in (02:01:03) society and even though I think I've (02:01:05) achieved some things by the age of 18 I (02:01:07) still feel like deep inside I will never (02:01:09) be enough and I'm still not enough and I (02:01:11) can't tell (02:01:12) anybody and I think that's a problem (02:01:15) that's quite unique to men it might be a (02:01:16) problem unique to my upbringing but I (02:01:18) just don't have the tools so when I look (02:01:21) at the stats around depression and Men (02:01:22) killing themselves 75% of suicides in (02:01:25) the UK are men and 75% of the worldwide (02:01:28) are men and suicide as you said I think (02:01:30) earlier as the leading cause of death (02:01:31) amongst young men in 50 countries yeah (02:01:34) if you feel that meaningless and you (02:01:35) feel that worthless and you don't have (02:01:37) anyone to console about it to maybe tell (02:01:39) you that you're wrong you know that's (02:01:41) why when Scott said that you don't (02:01:43) necessarily buy the research that women (02:01:44) are looking for someone who's (02:01:45) emotionally intelligent fine then don't (02:01:48) do it for your partner do it for (02:01:49) yourself yeah I just saw the stand up (02:01:52) special by kumel nanani it's it'll I'm (02:01:55) sure it'll like come out on streaming (02:01:56) soon but the last 20 minutes was pretty (02:01:59) incredible basically turned from like (02:02:01) sort of silly standup into kind of like (02:02:03) his Ted talk so he told this amazing (02:02:05) story about how one day he was speaking (02:02:08) to the press and he said I started to go (02:02:11) to therapy when there were a bunch of (02:02:13) bad reviews about my movie because I (02:02:15) realized so much of my identity was tied (02:02:17) up in external factors and this turned (02:02:19) into headlines around the world that (02:02:21) said bad review land Kum nanian therapy (02:02:25) and he was really frustrated by this so (02:02:27) in the standup special he took the five (02:02:29) most popular things that people said (02:02:31) criticizing him and he broke down each (02:02:33) one so for example one of them was oh (02:02:36) boohoo poor you know super rich movie (02:02:39) star feels sad about bad reviews we (02:02:41) should all feel sad for him and he's (02:02:42) like no you don't have to feel sad for (02:02:44) me but I can feel sad for me and he went (02:02:46) through all these things and he talked (02:02:47) about his therapy journey and how before (02:02:49) therapy he thought I just don't (02:02:51) experience negative emotions I don't (02:02:53) experience sadness and through therapy (02:02:56) he understood oh I experience sadness (02:02:57) all the time but I don't allow myself to (02:02:59) feel it so it just comes out as anger so (02:03:02) he told a story about talking to his dad (02:03:04) on the phone his dad had just been in a (02:03:05) car accident but was fine and then he (02:03:08) helped his dad through that experience (02:03:09) and then a few hours later he's like (02:03:11) where the [ __ ] is my Ninja Turtle (02:03:13) t-shirt and it's like he needed therapy (02:03:15) to explain to him he's not upset about (02:03:17) the T-shirt he's upset about his dad but (02:03:20) I think that the fact that he you know (02:03:22) in his 40s or however old he is had to (02:03:25) learn that it makes me feel like (02:03:28) everyone needs to learn that if it's not (02:03:29) for a romantic partner then it's for (02:03:31) yourself because a life sucks if you (02:03:33) can't cry you can't express emotions you (02:03:35) don't have people to talk to and so (02:03:37) forget about attracting a mate just not (02:03:39) killing yourself just being a happier (02:03:41) person I think we just need more room (02:03:43) for men to express (02:03:46) emotions the first time I went to a (02:03:48) therapist was when I was about about 30 (02:03:51) 30 1 and I put it off for so [ __ ] (02:03:56) long for this reason because every part (02:03:58) of it made me feel like emasculated and (02:04:00) as a man you're like I know I can deal (02:04:02) with everything myself and I've got this (02:04:04) like like I said when the bus comes I (02:04:05) put my hand in front of my girlfriend (02:04:06) I'm always the protector so when you (02:04:08) find yourself in a position like these (02:04:10) men who've written into the show where (02:04:11) you feel meaningless or you feel (02:04:13) hopeless or there's some other challenge (02:04:14) in your life you think it's your job to (02:04:17) fix well I I thought it was like my job (02:04:19) to fix and also like maybe because I've (02:04:22) been a CEO since the age of of 18 I'm (02:04:25) always like holding for for everybody so (02:04:27) you learn to like keep a [ __ ] (02:04:29) straight face the business is on fire we (02:04:31) have no money to pay 170 people's wages (02:04:33) and it's Friday and they're expecting (02:04:35) like you learn this skill of like (02:04:36) numbness and that doesn't serve you when (02:04:38) you're trying to resolve something and (02:04:40) this is why I think corn uh gambling (02:04:43) addiction become the Avenue because (02:04:45) there's not another Avenue to to sort of (02:04:48) take pressure off the pressure valve (02:04:50) so yeah difficult it's difficult the way (02:04:55) you the email you just read from that (02:04:58) young man I I've stopped and it sounds (02:05:02) crash I can't handle the emails I get (02:05:04) anymore I'm getting so many emails from (02:05:07) young men who are (02:05:09) just I mean you like you read an email (02:05:13) like that and you just like it's (02:05:16) devastating you know I haven't gotten (02:05:18) over the death of my father I'm living (02:05:21) alone I've become addicted to op I mean (02:05:24) you just hear this [ __ ] like I know I (02:05:25) have value to add I just can't figure it (02:05:27) out or I mean just there's just so many (02:05:31) of these men out there and I think a lot (02:05:34) of it is I always looked to economics (02:05:35) I'm like we've got to figure out (02:05:37) vocational programming I think we should (02:05:39) have national service so people feel a (02:05:41) sense of identity and connection and (02:05:44) purpose some of the lowest levels of (02:05:46) young adult depression are in Israel (02:05:48) despite all the existential threats (02:05:49) because they all serve in the IDF for (02:05:52) two to three years I think we need more (02:05:55) freshman seats at colleges I think we (02:05:57) need more third places where people uh I (02:06:00) think a lot of it comes down to (02:06:01) economics and policy programs I think (02:06:03) there's a lot we can do to help young (02:06:07) men but in the US it's now 77% moving to (02:06:10) 80% suicides it's 4 to one if there was (02:06:13) any special interest group you go into a (02:06:15) Morgan America and five people di by (02:06:17) Suicide four men if that was any other (02:06:20) special interest group versus the (02:06:21) control group they'd weigh in with (02:06:22) programs but because of the enormous (02:06:25) Advantage I registered and let's be (02:06:27) honest it was enormous basically all (02:06:29) Prosperity In America which was (02:06:31) unprecedented was crammed into 30% of (02:06:33) the population basically white males so (02:06:36) we just had we had staggering (02:06:40) advantage and now 19-year-old males are (02:06:42) paying the price for my advantage (02:06:45) there's really a lack of empathy for (02:06:46) them and what I do think is hopeful is (02:06:50) that (02:06:52) s and women in society now realize that (02:06:53) the (02:06:55) country and women are not going to (02:06:57) continue to flourish if men are flailing (02:07:00) and it finally feels like we're having a (02:07:02) real program the governor Marilyn (02:07:04) Westmore has said that his Focus for his (02:07:07) administration this is a governor of a (02:07:08) state a liberal state is going to be on (02:07:11) helping the state's young men I mean (02:07:14) that took such [ __ ] balls for him to (02:07:17) say that and you know what the populists (02:07:20) received it well because on the ground (02:07:23) people are feeling it they're really (02:07:25) feeling how much young men are (02:07:27) struggling so I'm actually quite hopeful (02:07:31) that we've turned a corner in terms of (02:07:33) the dialogue because when I started (02:07:35) talking about this four or five years (02:07:36) ago and right away oh you're massage (02:07:39) your hair wasn't on fire when women were (02:07:41) I mean just oh it was such there was (02:07:44) such a gag reflex it has changed so (02:07:47) dramatically in the last four or five (02:07:49) years where do we send these guys (02:07:53) that's a great question and I wish I had (02:07:57) a list of resources I'm trying to (02:07:59) assemble it around all (02:08:01) right I mean I'm I'm involved with it (02:08:04) because it's difficult to discern (02:08:05) between ordinary young adult or (02:08:08) adolescent problems and when a kid's (02:08:10) suicidal I wish I had some sort of AI (02:08:12) filter that would go this kid needs help (02:08:13) right away like there here are some (02:08:15) resources here are some men's groups you (02:08:18) know and I do a shitty job I can't talk (02:08:20) to all of them a couple of them I take (02:08:21) the laser I say here's 500 bucks do (02:08:23) better help online therapy I'll pay for (02:08:24) your first four sessions yeah just be (02:08:27) but I got to be honest I don't know I (02:08:29) mean I think we should put together this (02:08:31) list of resources and I feel like there (02:08:32) are good guys out there I put Chris (02:08:34) Williamson in this group I put both of (02:08:36) you out there podcasts are how a lot of (02:08:39) modern wisdom is being expressed right (02:08:41) now right you don't go to church you get (02:08:43) your sermon through your airpods so like (02:08:46) who are the guys that are saying healthy (02:08:48) things and I feel like if we can fill (02:08:50) their ears with the healthy messages of (02:08:52) masculinity we are taking away the space (02:08:55) and the attention from the people that (02:08:56) are really profiting from these negative (02:09:01) messages I think you need a place to (02:09:03) send the people who email you and I I I (02:09:06) appreciate the offer and we should do (02:09:07) this but we should have a list that says (02:09:09) all right what what are you struggling (02:09:12) with and here are some here are some (02:09:14) resources or things you should think (02:09:16) about but even what you both said to my (02:09:18) answer or to my question around like (02:09:20) what's the Boot Camp or what would you (02:09:22) tell guys like that's not a crazy list I (02:09:26) think it's like for a lot of these guys (02:09:28) to have you as sort of a ra male role (02:09:31) model of like go to the gym make money (02:09:35) be kind look out for others like I just (02:09:38) feel like that can be condensed into and (02:09:40) maybe that's what your new book is but (02:09:42) like truly I think people are looking (02:09:44) for a script with the lack of religion (02:09:47) lack of institution we've lost all these (02:09:48) scripts that tell people what to do (02:09:51) let's write a new (02:09:53) script it's on you brother you're (02:09:55) younger you got more tread on your you (02:09:57) you've got you look at all these cameras (02:10:00) I'm I mean somebody's gonna watch this (02:10:03) and pull it together into all of your (02:10:05) advice but I'm just saying I like the (02:10:07) idea of a collective it needs to get out (02:10:09) there because if you don't fill the (02:10:11) space somebody else will and they (02:10:13) already are and it's not the messages (02:10:15) that you want to have the next (02:10:17) population the Next Generation having I (02:10:20) agree we'll talk about this camera (02:10:25) two man anything else you wanted to ask (02:10:27) us I know you see you're SC to her views (02:10:30) if you've got any other questions you (02:10:30) wanted to ask no I'm just really glad (02:10:32) that we're having this conversation I (02:10:34) feel like maybe I wouldn't have had this (02:10:35) conversation a year ago I do think the (02:10:37) tide is turning I think the title of the (02:10:39) report as Lost Boys is very helpful and (02:10:41) I just want to end with the message that (02:10:45) women don't have to do worse when men do (02:10:47) better and vice versa and let's raise up (02:10:51) everyone so that we're all thriving (02:10:55) and yeah let's help these Lost Boys And (02:10:58) also help women any closing points when (02:11:00) it's smad Scott oh well just a message (02:11:03) to young people in general The Arc of (02:11:06) Happiness is a smile and that is kind of (02:11:10) zero to 18 is prom football you know (02:11:14) making (02:11:15) out it's generally pretty happy the (02:11:18) least happy years for people are usually (02:11:20) kind of 18 to (02:11:23) 45 economic stress relationships are (02:11:26) hard you probably are someone you love a (02:11:28) great deal gets sick and dies and if (02:11:31) you're struggling what I what I would (02:11:33) just say (02:11:34) is you know don't be afraid to reach out (02:11:36) for help but also realize that if you're (02:11:39) not a member of Parliament and you don't (02:11:41) have a fragrance named after you it (02:11:42) doesn't mean you're failing and to (02:11:44) forgive yourself and to recognize that (02:11:47) those are tough years I you know when my (02:11:51) first kid was born I tell this story a (02:11:53) lot it's supposed to be Angel singing (02:11:55) and bright lights I felt nothing but (02:11:58) shame I was 42 and I was broke I had put (02:12:01) everything into my tech company great (02:12:03) financial recession came along I think I (02:12:05) my account called me and said you're (02:12:06) worth a negative $2 million if we look (02:12:09) at your debts you're worth negative2 (02:12:11) million and about that time my oldest (02:12:13) son had the poor judgment to come (02:12:14) rotating out of my girlfriend and all I (02:12:17) felt with this kid was shame like I have (02:12:21) failed I failed myself and now I failed (02:12:24) on an entirely new dimension as a (02:12:26) provider and a father that was the first (02:12:28) thing I felt when my son was born and I (02:12:32) wrote about it and I can't tell you how (02:12:35) many men I heard from that all I felt (02:12:37) when I had my first kid or kids was a (02:12:40) sense of embarrassment and that I was (02:12:42) already failing that energy that you (02:12:45) felt at that moment did you Channel it (02:12:48) into something or were you tempted (02:12:49) nausea nausea I was in the delivery room (02:12:53) and they were more worried about me and (02:12:54) they thought it was because I was (02:12:55) grossed out by birthing it was because I (02:12:57) was so ashamed I would just immediately (02:12:59) felt like oh my God how did I put myself (02:13:01) in a position where I'm a terrible (02:13:03) provider on day one I just felt a (02:13:06) tremendous amount of Shame and I think (02:13:08) most people when you talk to them at (02:13:11) some point have felt really down and (02:13:14) really like (02:13:16) embarrassed and I just don't think (02:13:18) that's anything unusual and you you you (02:13:20) want to you want to forgive give (02:13:22) yourself you want to say to yourself I (02:13:25) can add value to a company I can make (02:13:27) someone very happy you know and try and (02:13:31) surround yourself with people that make (02:13:33) you feel good about yourself and every (02:13:35) day just little baby steps write some (02:13:37) things down trying to exercise trying to (02:13:40) eat well I can tell when I'm getting (02:13:42) depressed and I have this method of (02:13:43) getting out of it I call it scaffa scafa (02:13:46) sweat it's like resets my operating (02:13:49) system clean try and eat really well at (02:13:52) home abstinence and when I say absence (02:13:56) abstinence from pot and alcohol both of (02:13:58) which I love and I'm really good at them (02:14:00) they add value to my life but when I'm (02:14:01) not feeling good I take them out of my (02:14:04) life because whatever's going on with my (02:14:05) sensors I just don't want to mess with (02:14:06) them f is um family I find being around (02:14:10) my boys is really important and then a (02:14:13) is affection I find affection being (02:14:16) around even if it's my dogs laying on me (02:14:19) or my boys I'll say to my boys let's (02:14:20) watch TV and my instinctively throw (02:14:22) their legs on mine not necessarily sex (02:14:24) but affection with my partner those are (02:14:26) the things that get me out of a dark (02:14:28) place so try and figure out if you can (02:14:30) what things help you get out of a dark (02:14:32) place but (02:14:34) recognize everyone struggles and I'm not (02:14:37) saying that you shouldn't reach out and (02:14:38) find help but everything online is (02:14:41) telling you you should be in a Gulf (02:14:43) Stream in parting in St Barts no that (02:14:47) that's just not that's not the real (02:14:49) world and try and build a support system (02:14:53) and also forgive yourself life is (02:14:56) happiness is a smile kind of 20 20 to 45 (02:14:59) is usually you know it's full of a lot (02:15:01) of Joy but it's also full of a lot of (02:15:04) you know oftentimes a lot of anxiety do (02:15:06) you go to therapy no have you ever been (02:15:09) I did my first marriage we went to (02:15:11) marriage counseling and after the first (02:15:12) session we decided to get divorced so (02:15:14) I'm a little traumatized by therapy yeah (02:15:17) he got right to it saved me real money (02:15:19) yeah oh Stephen I wanted to add one more (02:15:21) thing I think an underappreciated (02:15:24) resource for men for building empathy is (02:15:26) reading fiction books so I'm in a book (02:15:30) club I read fiction all the time fiction (02:15:31) builds a lot of empathy because you are (02:15:33) truly Inside the Mind of somebody else (02:15:36) for two or 300 pages when I talk to guys (02:15:39) they so rarely read fiction do you read (02:15:41) any fiction none at all a lot of guys (02:15:43) that I talk to they say oh I read (02:15:45) non-fiction and there's so many lists (02:15:47) online of like the hundred non-fiction (02:15:49) books to get your MBA and it's like (02:15:51) we're all reading so much non-fiction on (02:15:53) our phone at all times read a book of (02:15:57) fiction get inside the head of somebody (02:15:59) else get inside the head of a woman I (02:16:01) think that for zero dollars at the local (02:16:03) library you can actually become a better (02:16:05) person do you know what's interesting (02:16:06) there there's a reason why men read (02:16:07) books about how to make money yeah (02:16:09) because it goes back to everything we've (02:16:10) said if I said to my boys boys we're (02:16:12) gonna start reading fiction that that my (02:16:14) my friends read stuff that's going to (02:16:15) help them build a business make money or (02:16:17) gain muscle mass yeah but can I convince (02:16:20) what what if what if you're single and (02:16:22) I'm going to say read this fiction and (02:16:24) you're going to get laid like why can't (02:16:25) we just reframe and change the narrative (02:16:28) on fiction we I mean I just feel like (02:16:31) there's so many examples of times that I (02:16:33) haven't really known what's going on (02:16:34) with the group and then I read a book (02:16:36) about that group and I'm not an expert (02:16:38) in them but I can think about them more (02:16:41) and I just feel like look if you are not (02:16:43) having success with women and you don't (02:16:44) have any women in your life read a (02:16:46) [ __ ] book by a woman just a quick (02:16:49) anecdote when I was a senior in high (02:16:51) school and a freshman in college I (02:16:52) remember thinking I'm strange I I'm I'm (02:16:56) I remember feeling very insecure about (02:16:58) my own psychological makeup and that (02:16:59) didn't help and then I read a bunch of (02:17:02) John Irving novels the world according (02:17:04) to GARP Cider House roles and the people (02:17:07) in it were just so [ __ ] strange it (02:17:09) made me feel better about myself I'm (02:17:10) like oh there's other weirdos out there (02:17:12) so what you say really resonates it made (02:17:14) me feel less self-conscious about how (02:17:17) unusual I thought I was um so I it just (02:17:21) dawned on me that that was a big help (02:17:23) for me wow Tik Tok is not going to give (02:17:26) you the empathy that spending 300 Pages (02:17:30) Inside the Mind of a person different (02:17:31) from yourself will thank you both um for (02:17:35) so many reasons Scott you're actually (02:17:37) writing a book at the moment which is (02:17:38) going to be published shortly we've (02:17:39) talked about it a few times what is the (02:17:41) title of that book and what is it (02:17:42) about well I I've determined I don't (02:17:45) know how it is for you with books but (02:17:46) basically your publisher does nothing (02:17:48) and then and then obsesses over the (02:17:50) title that's the value (02:17:52) that is very true so I had it work it (02:17:55) was supposed to be originally about (02:17:56) masculinity then I realized that I don't (02:17:58) have the skills of the domain expertise (02:17:59) to summarize masculinity so I change it (02:18:02) to work in progress notes on becoming a (02:18:04) man and I just talk about stories that (02:18:06) I've written about about some of the (02:18:07) things we've talked about today and (02:18:09) trying to use masculinity as a code I (02:18:11) think everyone needs a code whether it's (02:18:12) the military the religion their family (02:18:15) values and I think (02:18:17) masculinity can serve as a code if (02:18:19) defined correctly for young men but it's (02:18:21) just a series of like stories about (02:18:23) things I've gone through some of my many (02:18:26) ways I failed and what I learned about (02:18:28) trying to become a man trying to be a (02:18:30) good dad trying to be a good partner (02:18:32) when is it published when is it gonna be (02:18:33) published it'll be on the fall on the (02:18:35) fall okay and Logan you have an (02:18:38) incredible book which is I mean one of (02:18:40) the I think the book on this subject (02:18:42) matter called how to not dial alone the (02:18:44) surprising science that will help you (02:18:46) find love and what does someone discover (02:18:48) in that book well it's really about (02:18:51) understanding the blind spots that hold (02:18:52) people back from Finding Love and then (02:18:55) making a plan to overcome them I'm going (02:18:57) to link all of Scott's books and all of (02:18:59) Logan's book in the comments below for (02:19:01) anybody to read I also wanted to say a (02:19:02) huge thank you to the center of social (02:19:04) justice for making this report because (02:19:06) it's again it's caused a huge (02:19:07) conversation in the UK and now around (02:19:09) the world around Lost Boys um we have a (02:19:12) closing tradition on this podcast where (02:19:13) the last guest leaves a question for the (02:19:14) next guest not knowing who they're (02:19:15) leaving it for and the question I'm (02:19:17) going to ask both of you (02:19:19) is Logan what are you most scared (02:19:24) of I'm most scared of losing my (02:19:28) husband because he has had a brush with (02:19:31) death he had very serious bone cancer I (02:19:34) feel like we've just been through such (02:19:35) hard stuff with him medically that right (02:19:38) now I'm here today with you he's (02:19:41) climbing I was just thinking you know (02:19:43) what happens if something happens to him (02:19:45) with climbing and we have a one-year-old (02:19:46) daughter and so maybe the most obvious (02:19:49) answer is something that happened to my (02:19:50) daughter but for me is really something (02:19:52) to happen to my (02:19:54) husband SC what do you may SC of the way (02:19:57) I took that was what of my most worried (02:19:59) about I'm really worried about an (02:20:02) epidemic of (02:20:03) loneliness um from a societal standpoint (02:20:07) that people are starting to believe they (02:20:08) can disengage from (02:20:10) life and that leads to anxiety and (02:20:12) depression and polarization that makes (02:20:14) the world a less safe place personally (02:20:16) my fear has always been the same I'm (02:20:18) always worried that my kind of selfish (02:20:20) instincts (02:20:22) manifest in an ugly way and I end up (02:20:24) alone and old you know that's (02:20:27) my that's my biggest fear that I end up (02:20:30) dying under Bright Lights you know (02:20:33) surrounded by strangers that's my (02:20:35) biggest fear because your selfish (02:20:37) instincts manifest you do something (02:20:38) wrong in your relationship or you [ __ ] (02:20:40) up your yeah just so my dad is not a (02:20:43) very my dad ended up my dad's basically (02:20:45) alone at 95 and some of his less some of (02:20:49) his lower character quality attributes I (02:20:52) see in myself and that's a fear my fear (02:20:54) is that you know end up dying surrounded (02:20:58) by strangers Steve do (02:21:03) yours the first thing that comes to mind (02:21:05) is my something happening to my partner (02:21:06) I just can't imagine I just see her as (02:21:09) this like perfect human being that was (02:21:11) like this Angel so thinking I just can't (02:21:14) imagine ever finding anybody comparable (02:21:17) so something happening to her finding (02:21:18) out she was sick I think is the first (02:21:20) thing that comes to mind it comes to (02:21:21) mind actually but above any anything in (02:21:23) my life and then I do have a little bit (02:21:25) of Scott's fear which he expressed there (02:21:28) which is that I will make bad decisions (02:21:34) based on I'm going to just say it just (02:21:37) like the Temptation Of Life and that'll (02:21:41) Lead Me Up lead me to be a bad father (02:21:43) not be around for my kids not be able to (02:21:45) be around for my kids and be (02:21:48) lonely and uh old and Rich (02:21:52) and (02:21:52) miserable it's like kind of a fear I've (02:21:55) always had it's interesting I said the (02:21:57) word temptation yeah because in the (02:21:59) world you know there's a lot of (02:22:00) Temptation there is people don't talk (02:22:02) about a (02:22:04) lot thank you skull thank you I want to (02:22:07) say thank you to you in particular (02:22:08) because you've been one of the leading (02:22:09) voices in this fight that's a generous (02:22:11) thing to say I appreciate that it's (02:22:12) absolutely not generous because it's (02:22:13) absolutely true when people think of (02:22:15) this subject matter they think of you (02:22:16) now and um you also stuck your neck out (02:22:19) and started speaking about this subject (02:22:21) long before it was okay to speak about (02:22:22) the subject and you spoke about it in (02:22:24) such an eloquent hilarious Wise Way that (02:22:28) both sides listened and I think you're (02:22:31) one of the key people on this subject (02:22:33) matter who's even allowed these kind of (02:22:35) reports to exist because I'm actually (02:22:36) not sure that if it wasn't for you um (02:22:40) reports like this would exist I think (02:22:42) you're wrong but I'll take it I think (02:22:43) I'm absolutely right like I actually (02:22:45) think I'm right because the reach you've (02:22:46) had on the subject matter is hundreds (02:22:49) and hundreds of millions of people (02:22:50) across the e clipse across the podcasts (02:22:51) you've done and like I said listen there (02:22:54) wasn't a lot of people saying it before (02:22:55) you could say you've actually given (02:22:56) cover to a lot of people you've even (02:22:58) given cover to me and it's because of (02:23:00) the the the wonderful science and art (02:23:03) that you um you deploy as it relates to (02:23:05) communication and (02:23:07) Logan thank you as well because you've (02:23:10) made the decision as well to lend your (02:23:11) voice to this subject matter which is (02:23:13) complicated and it's like problematic (02:23:14) and it's full of like landmines it feels (02:23:16) like but you're adding an incredibly (02:23:18) important perspective when that comes (02:23:20) from tremendous resear (02:23:21) live the experience and um you're a very (02:23:24) important I think individual in this in (02:23:27) this fight to to speak to speak and to (02:23:30) to sort of create a better world for our (02:23:32) young and Lost Boys thank you can I (02:23:34) thank Scott too knock yourself out you (02:23:36) know just to make you uncomfortable go (02:23:39) on okay yeah so as I've been talking to (02:23:41) people about my interest in this the (02:23:43) first thing they always say is oh the (02:23:45) stuff that Scott Galloway is talking (02:23:46) about and if you weren't talking about (02:23:48) it I don't think they would have anyone (02:23:49) to point to I but I just just need to I (02:23:51) feel like a plagiarist because the (02:23:53) majority of my good data comes from (02:23:55) Richard Reed I know that that's true but (02:23:57) the point is you are the most effective (02:24:00) Communicator in the world right now your (02:24:02) ability to turn stories and facts into (02:24:06) persuasion is something that no one else (02:24:08) is doing so you're taking Richard's data (02:24:11) and combining your lived experience and (02:24:13) you're getting this message out there in (02:24:15) a way that no one else is doing thank (02:24:16) you that's generous thank you and no one (02:24:19) else could reach both sides (02:24:21) in such an effective way which I think (02:24:23) is really important so again thank you (02:24:25) Scott thank you thank you for being so (02:24:27) generous of your time really appreciate (02:24:28) it we launched these conversation cards (02:24:30) and they sold out and we launched them (02:24:32) again and they sold out again we (02:24:33) launched them again and they sold out (02:24:34) again because people love playing these (02:24:36) with colleagues at work with friends at (02:24:38) home and also with family and we've also (02:24:40) got a big audience that Ed them as (02:24:41) Journal prompts every single time a (02:24:43) guest comes on the dire of a CEO they (02:24:45) leave a question to the next guest in (02:24:47) the diary and I've sat here with some of (02:24:49) the most incredible people in the world (02:24:50) and they've left all of these questions (02:24:53) in the diary and I've ranked them from (02:24:55) one to three in terms of the depth one (02:24:57) being a starter question and level three (02:25:00) if you look on the back here this is a (02:25:02) level three becomes a much deeper (02:25:04) question that builds even more (02:25:06) connection if you turn the cards over (02:25:08) and you scan that QR code you can see (02:25:11) who answered the card and watch the (02:25:13) video of them answering it in real time (02:25:16) so if you would like to get your hands (02:25:17) on some of these conversation cards go (02:25:19) to the diary.com or look at the link in (02:25:21) the description below this has always (02:25:23) blown my mind a little bit 53% of you (02:25:26) that listen to the show regularly (02:25:27) haven't yet subscribe to the show so (02:25:30) could I ask you for a favor if you like (02:25:31) the show and you like what we do here (02:25:32) and you want to support us the free (02:25:34) simple way that you can do just that is (02:25:35) by hitting the Subscribe button and my (02:25:37) commitment to you is if you do that then (02:25:39) I'll do everything in my power me and my (02:25:41) team to make sure that this show is (02:25:42) better for you every single week we'll (02:25:44) listen to your feedback we'll find the (02:25:46) guest that you want me to speak to and (02:25:48) we'll continue to do what we do thank (02:25:49) you so much oh (02:25:53) [Music] (02:26:10) [Music]