Dr Gordon Neufeld: Your Child NEEDS to Cry | The Science of Attachment, Futility & Emotional Healing (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) But when you get your first rejection, (00:00:02) real big rejection as a as an adolescent (00:00:05) and you've fallen in love and you've (00:00:06) given your heart and you know and you (00:00:08) think you can control it and all of a (00:00:10) sudden she doesn't want to have anything (00:00:11) to do with you and you go like really (00:00:13) there's nothing left to do but cry. But (00:00:15) if you don't do it, you you feel like (00:00:17) attacking everything, the greater there (00:00:19) is aggression, violence, self attack in (00:00:21) society. If you think suicide is the (00:00:24) ultimate indicator of a lack of (00:00:25) adaptation, the more that is not (00:00:27) working, the more the brain has to feel (00:00:30) the sadness to restore the plasticity to (00:00:33) find workarounds. And Gabra quotes me (00:00:36) often and he says, "Well, Newfeld says (00:00:39) that we could only be saved through a (00:00:41) sea of sea of tears." But but attachment (00:00:44) is the most powerful force in the (00:00:46) universe. Right? So if there's not two (00:00:48) parents, if there's only a single (00:00:49) parent, you've got three or four kids. (00:00:52) Ritual is your other parent. (00:00:54) >> Okay? (00:00:54) >> Ritual is the other way you do things. (00:00:56) You have to spend a little bit of time. (00:00:58) Maybe you're exhausted, but the little (00:01:00) bit of time you have, you would ask, (00:01:02) "How can I ritualize so that I am not (00:01:04) barking orders at my child?" We've (00:01:06) actually pathized it. We we now consider (00:01:08) it a sign of depression when actually (00:01:12) it's it's the cure for depression. (00:01:14) >> Yeah. Wonderful. (00:01:15) >> How do you get adults to tears? Well, (00:01:17) you've got to do it in the play One Step (00:01:20) Removed. (00:01:21) >> So, you create a tragedy. (00:01:22) >> Wow. (00:01:23) >> Where they watch somebody else who's up (00:01:25) against this so there's nothing left to (00:01:26) do but cry. And then you saw, well, (00:01:28) that's a route to civilization. They (00:01:30) said, (00:01:31) >> "If you had a magic wand, what would be (00:01:33) the one thing you'd want all parents on (00:01:36) the planet to know and practice?" (00:01:38) >> H (00:01:44) everybody and welcome to the Mind (00:01:45) Architect podcast. I am Powell and I am (00:01:48) going to have a wonderful conversation (00:01:50) today with Dr. Gordon Newfeld. If you (00:01:53) haven't heard him speak, he's a treasure (00:01:55) of a man. Uh, I can't wait for you to (00:01:58) hear about all the things we are going (00:02:00) to talk about. I'm going to give you a (00:02:02) little bit of intro into him. Not that (00:02:05) he needs any, but if you're listening to (00:02:07) this for the first time or if you're (00:02:09) meeting him virtually for the first (00:02:11) time, he's a Vancouver based (00:02:13) developmental psychologist with 50 years (00:02:15) of clinical experience. He holds a (00:02:18) graduate degree from the University of (00:02:20) British Columbia where he has also (00:02:22) taught psychology for the last 20 years. (00:02:26) his groundbreaking theories on (00:02:28) attachment, including the six stages of (00:02:30) relationship development, aggression, (00:02:32) counterwill, (00:02:34) uh, bullying, anxiety, and a lot of (00:02:36) other interesting things, are the reason (00:02:38) why I'm really fortunate and grateful to (00:02:40) have him in the mind architect studio (00:02:43) here. And his work explains phenomena (00:02:46) like shyness through the construct of (00:02:48) polarization and addresses the (00:02:50) alpha/dependent dimensions of child (00:02:52) behavior. He's also the co-author and (00:02:56) the of the best-selling Hold on to your (00:02:58) kids book why uh parents need to matter (00:03:01) more than peers that he co-authored with (00:03:03) Dr. Gabbor Mate another guest that we (00:03:06) had in the mind architect studio (00:03:08) without extending the introduction more. (00:03:11) You're going to hear about things like (00:03:13) the six stages of attachment. You're (00:03:16) going to hear about shyness. You're (00:03:17) going to hear about aggression and how (00:03:19) parents can deal with that. You're going (00:03:21) to hear about the three basic universal (00:03:24) drives like work, attachment, and play. (00:03:28) You're going to hear about how similar (00:03:31) attachment is in early childhood to how (00:03:33) we relate in adult life. Uh we also have (00:03:36) questions here regarding uh the four (00:03:39) universal needs that all children have (00:03:42) with the appearance of counterwill, our (00:03:44) relationship to social media and the the (00:03:47) uh problems that that might cause and (00:03:49) how to best manage them. (00:03:51) >> Get ready for an excellent conversation (00:03:54) with a brilliant mind and a very kind (00:03:56) heart. So Gordon, thank you for being (00:03:58) here with us. It's a privilege and an (00:04:00) honor. Thank you for being in Romania. (00:04:02) Thank you for sharing everything that (00:04:03) you are already sharing through the (00:04:05) books and now thank you for being in the (00:04:07) mind architect studio. I want to invite (00:04:09) you to start our conversation. Your work (00:04:11) is rooted in attachment theory, how (00:04:14) important it is for the parent child (00:04:15) relationship and for development. If we (00:04:18) have parents here who haven't heard (00:04:20) about it yet or parents who maybe read (00:04:23) or learned something that's not actually (00:04:25) updated, what would be the foundation in (00:04:28) relationship to your work or attachment (00:04:30) theory that they should know about (00:04:32) before we dive into more specifics? (00:04:34) >> Well, I I I think the easiest way to (00:04:35) start is is this that attachment really (00:04:40) is uh the science of relationship (00:04:43) and we're all in relationship. Every (00:04:45) particle in the universe is in (00:04:47) relationship. Attachment is the most (00:04:49) comprehensive understanding and (00:04:51) principle in physics and chemistry, in (00:04:54) biology. Every bit of every bit of the (00:04:57) body is attached to every bit of the (00:04:59) body. The brain is is made up of neurons (00:05:03) that are attached. There's no life (00:05:04) outside of attachment. So some people (00:05:06) think it is a it is simply an idea. No, (00:05:11) attachment is (00:05:14) uh the relationship of everything and (00:05:16) the science of it. Now the discovery the (00:05:20) the absolutely exciting discovery was is (00:05:23) is that when we when when science uh got (00:05:28) to be a serious thing, we assumed it was (00:05:30) our survival that was the basic drive (00:05:35) >> only to find that in mammals (00:05:38) um it is not survival, it is need but (00:05:43) the drive is to togetherness. And it (00:05:46) makes perfect sense because the way our (00:05:50) evolved intelligence is is that our (00:05:52) survival lies in our togetherness. And (00:05:55) so when there's a threat to (00:05:56) togetherness, you know the child if (00:05:58) there is a danger if or all of us if (00:06:03) there's an earthquake or a fire we don't (00:06:05) say where's safety we we say where's mom (00:06:08) where's dad where's my wife where's my (00:06:10) husband and we will go through danger to (00:06:13) get there. So is our is our need uh you (00:06:18) know survival? Yes. But is our drive our (00:06:21) drive is to togetherness because the (00:06:23) probability of survival lies in our (00:06:26) togetherness. So when we study the brain (00:06:29) it is the fundamental the primary the (00:06:32) primordial (00:06:33) uh the preeeminent drive. It's the (00:06:36) default drive. So it is basic very (00:06:39) basic. (00:06:40) I like this idea that I also heard from (00:06:43) Daniel Seagull that everything is (00:06:45) connected like the principle of (00:06:46) integration from the body to the mind to (00:06:49) us as people to society to communities (00:06:51) and when we start disintegrating when we (00:06:53) when we get basically detached (00:06:56) >> or when when we're not attached to each (00:06:58) other then problems appear. Now (00:07:02) for our audience and especially for for (00:07:04) the parents in the audience, how should (00:07:07) they look at attachment throughout time? (00:07:10) Because in your book, I read about the (00:07:11) six stages which I found very (00:07:13) interesting. Uh the smaller the child (00:07:16) is, the more physical proximity it (00:07:18) needs. (00:07:19) >> The older it gets, the more evolved the (00:07:21) the way it attaches to the parents. (00:07:24) >> So could you walk us through that a (00:07:26) little bit to understand how it evolves (00:07:27) through time? Well, with with humans, (00:07:29) there's a there's a special problem. If (00:07:32) you think of a of a molecule, an atom, (00:07:34) uh uh an electron, [snorts] (00:07:37) uh it's it's a physical proximity issue (00:07:40) for particles. Uh but but for humans, (00:07:43) we're complex creatures. Uh when we (00:07:46) toddle, we toddle uh we have (00:07:48) self-mobility (00:07:50) uh and uh and we have differences and so (00:07:52) on. So how the the the problem our brain (00:07:56) is trying to solve is how to preserve (00:07:59) togetherness when apart. That is a (00:08:02) problem it's trying to solve. And so (00:08:05) there is this this um (00:08:08) these uh stages in that development uh (00:08:13) by uh the second year of life by the (00:08:17) second birthday really uh when a child (00:08:21) toddles there is this huge drive to be (00:08:24) the same as to be like and that is where (00:08:27) language is acquired where we take on (00:08:29) the same form the same gestures we walk (00:08:32) the same we talk the same and uh uh we (00:08:37) take those things for granted. Uh but (00:08:40) they are serving the to be like is very (00:08:45) important when we can't be with but to (00:08:48) be like there's not enough room for to (00:08:50) be our own person. (00:08:52) So another problem exists is that how do (00:08:57) you bridge differences? Well to belong (00:08:59) to be part of. So by the third birthday, (00:09:03) the child wants to be part of it's very (00:09:05) important to be it's a side taking is (00:09:08) incredibly important for the (00:09:10) three-year-old. Uh they are not logical (00:09:13) creatures. They take the side of anyone (00:09:15) they are most attached to. And so uh (00:09:18) belonging and loyalty uh begin to be (00:09:21) part of the picture. and then (00:09:23) significance. By the fourth year of (00:09:25) life, the child realizes uh that mommy (00:09:28) and daddy hold close that which they (00:09:30) hold dear. And then if if everything is (00:09:32) rather continuous and safe, uh it it (00:09:35) evolves further because we're emotional (00:09:37) creatures, then we give our heart to (00:09:40) whomever it is that we're attached to. (00:09:42) And there's emotional intimacy. And then (00:09:44) because when we have a sense of self and (00:09:47) that self it now makes us feel different (00:09:51) than others, we want to be seen from the (00:09:53) inside out. And so finally psychological (00:09:56) intimacy to share my inner being to be (00:09:59) seen from inside out uh is is this final (00:10:03) stage. Now you'll notice that at the at (00:10:06) the stage of generally by the fifth (00:10:09) birthday when the child gives his heart (00:10:11) we always associate that as forever. So (00:10:14) what is the brain doing? Well, it's (00:10:17) creating the capacity for relationship (00:10:20) so that we can be close and connected in (00:10:22) relationship when we can't be with when (00:10:25) we're not like when when we can't get to (00:10:28) each other's side uh when something else (00:10:31) matters more than we do. and how it's (00:10:34) beautifully answered a sense of (00:10:36) togetherness so that we can have a sense (00:10:38) of togetherness. And the ultimate of (00:10:40) this is to feel known from inside out. (00:10:43) And it's it's a beautiful resolution. (00:10:46) It's it's a it's it's an example of how (00:10:52) we develop to answer the question, how (00:10:54) to stay close one apart. (00:10:56) >> I'm curious now that you're describing (00:10:58) them and thank you for the way you're (00:11:00) doing it. I I I can feel your love for (00:11:03) the subject and uh thank you so much for (00:11:06) the way you're doing it. Not just that (00:11:07) you're doing it. [snorts] (00:11:09) A curiosity popped to my to my mind. If (00:11:11) a child let's say doesn't get one of (00:11:14) these stages met well in adult life is (00:11:19) it the case that that person is more (00:11:27) is is rather looking for attachment in (00:11:30) that way and I can give an example when (00:11:32) I was born I stayed in the incubator for (00:11:35) about a week after I was born or (00:11:37) something like that and I've never felt (00:11:39) love unless I felt touched especially in (00:11:42) coup's relationship if I'm thinking (00:11:45) about the love languages (00:11:47) Chapman's love love languages for me it (00:11:50) was physical touch and I'm curious if (00:11:52) there's a link between not getting it (00:11:54) when we were children like not being (00:11:56) seen or not being physically touched and (00:11:59) getting in a way temporarily blocked as (00:12:03) adults in in that form of expressing (00:12:05) attachment. (00:12:06) >> Absolutely. There's all kinds of (00:12:08) compensatory kinds of things when there (00:12:10) has been a deprivation you know the the (00:12:13) brain goes well to the answer that this (00:12:15) is this is the way it would unfold and (00:12:18) our own personalities are also involved (00:12:21) because when you think of even the five (00:12:23) senses each of us has a dominant a (00:12:26) secondary sense and so on and so even (00:12:28) those things you think is it well is (00:12:30) touch your dominant sense was this the (00:12:33) way you experience you know connection (00:12:35) or or is it visual or is Is it auditory (00:12:38) that you must be in hearing or is it in (00:12:40) smell? I had one of my five children. It (00:12:43) was smell. I remember one time uh came (00:12:47) into the room. He was only 3 years of (00:12:49) age and he said, "Oh, daddy, I hadn't (00:12:52) smelled you, you know, and I always (00:12:54) wondered why I could walk into his room (00:12:55) and he was fully asleep and he'd wake up (00:12:59) because of course the smell is not one (00:13:01) that loses consciousness, you know. uh (00:13:04) and so he was he was able to wake up (00:13:06) this way. So it it plays it plays out in (00:13:10) a number of different ways depending (00:13:12) upon early experience, depending upon (00:13:14) deprivations. (00:13:16) The brain has multiple ways of solving (00:13:18) this problem. You might say, [snorts] (00:13:19) you know, the brain has multiple ways of (00:13:21) solving this problem because there's no (00:13:23) more important problem to solve. And and (00:13:26) if this is what people understood the (00:13:28) role of parents in helping their child's (00:13:31) brain solve this problem, then they'd be (00:13:33) looking alongside of this, there's (00:13:35) nothing more important than the child (00:13:37) has a sense of togetherness that they (00:13:39) can take for granted. (00:13:40) >> And that's what I took from uh your work (00:13:43) and reading hold on to your kids. I (00:13:45) understood that attachment is the (00:13:47) foundation for everything else. It's (00:13:49) what gives the the parent the power to (00:13:51) parent. (00:13:52) >> Yes. You said there, if I remember (00:13:54) correctly, that in order for it to work, (00:13:57) there needs to be a vulnerable child, a (00:14:00) parent willing to parent, and a working (00:14:03) attachment relationship. (00:14:04) >> Yes. (00:14:05) >> Now, something that's rather touchy and (00:14:08) rather complicated in today's world, and (00:14:10) I want to ask you your perspective on (00:14:12) it. We have a lot of parents and we've (00:14:14) heard a lot of parents in our work (00:14:16) saying that they're overwhelmed (00:14:19) that there's too much information about (00:14:22) what they should do and in your book and (00:14:25) in your work you talk about five univer (00:14:27) uh sorry four universal needs of kids. (00:14:30) Could you speak to that a little bit (00:14:32) like if if parents would get (00:14:35) what are the basics that if they would (00:14:37) get right (00:14:39) all other things are secondary? (00:14:41) >> Yes. Maybe it's a calming message to the (00:14:44) parent like focus on these four. (00:14:46) >> Yes. Yes, it would be because in in that (00:14:49) sense it becomes simpler, right? And we (00:14:51) can find our own intuitions, our own (00:14:53) dance uh in this um uh if we start off (00:14:57) with as we did that uh everything in uh (00:15:02) in uh in the child's brain is seeking (00:15:05) for this togetherness in a way they can (00:15:07) take for granted. It's the default. It's (00:15:10) the default drive and it will continue (00:15:12) to be the preeminent and primordial (00:15:14) default drive in many different ways (00:15:17) unless there's some rest and release. (00:15:18) And so you could think that there's (00:15:20) these two basic movements. There's a (00:15:23) movement towards proximity is what the (00:15:25) science term is. Uh rather than (00:15:27) togetherness that's the intuitive term (00:15:29) or belonging is an intuitive term. But (00:15:32) for uh nearness in every form. Uh so (00:15:35) that when we say proximity it applies (00:15:38) equally to the molecule to the particle (00:15:40) or to gravity to the moon and to the (00:15:43) earth right and those kinds of things (00:15:46) that that is the primordial the uh drive (00:15:50) only when there's rest and release is (00:15:54) energy allowed to to mature the child. (00:15:58) If you think of the plant analogy, the (00:16:00) plant sends down roots first of all, but (00:16:03) only if it can find what it's seeking (00:16:07) will it begin to realize its potential. (00:16:10) All we do when we look around is we see (00:16:13) the results of attachment. And that is (00:16:16) the way it is with humans as well. You (00:16:18) see, is we see the result of attachment (00:16:21) for better or for worse. Uh all of this (00:16:23) was hidden in culture, hidden (00:16:25) underground. It was invisible. We didn't (00:16:28) see it. So what the science of (00:16:29) attachment is is to try to make the (00:16:31) invisible visible the relationship (00:16:33) between particles in the universe, the (00:16:35) veillances between elements visible, you (00:16:38) know, the roots. And so this is now (00:16:40) we're making the invisible visible. And (00:16:42) that's the role of science to say, "Oh (00:16:44) my goodness, we were taking this for (00:16:46) granted. This is the most important (00:16:47) thing of all, you know, the roots have (00:16:49) to find." Then there is the unfolding of (00:16:52) potential. (00:16:53) Beautiful. The plant begins to realize, (00:16:55) the tree begins to realize its full (00:16:57) potential, but only if there's (00:17:00) sufficient rest and release. Now, the (00:17:02) mistake we made is we thought that (00:17:04) attachment and individuation were (00:17:06) separate dynamics. That was a huge (00:17:09) mistake made by professionals. It was an (00:17:12) eitheror. Well, no. If you think of a (00:17:14) plant, if you pull the plant out by the (00:17:15) roots, there's no growth. There's death. (00:17:18) And we don't you know the whole idea is (00:17:20) the deeper the roots the the greater the (00:17:23) attachment the more uh goes into uh (00:17:26) becoming all that that plant was meant (00:17:28) to be all that a human is meant to be. (00:17:31) So if we think of it in two in two (00:17:34) movements you think of it that (00:17:36) attachment the drive for togetherness is (00:17:39) the preeminent preeminent drive the (00:17:41) default one. It's there in all kinds of (00:17:43) forms, inversions, fragmented, and it (00:17:46) can be all kinds of forms. That is the (00:17:48) pre-minent drive. If there is a a little (00:17:51) bit of rest and release, somebody says, (00:17:54) "I've got this. I'll hold on to you." (00:17:56) Hence the title of my book. Okay? I've (00:17:58) got this. I will keep the close, the (00:18:01) various ways that you need closeness. (00:18:03) You can take it for granted. The brain (00:18:04) goes, "Thank you very much. I needed (00:18:06) that." and goes on to be able to uh to (00:18:11) uh spontaneously unfold the potential of (00:18:14) of that creature, us as humans. Uh so (00:18:17) then we ask another question. Well, to (00:18:20) experience that rest, what needs to (00:18:21) happen? Well, it turns out that humans (00:18:24) need to feel it. They need to feel it. (00:18:27) They need to be able to feel full. But (00:18:29) before they can feel full of (00:18:31) togetherness, they have to be able to (00:18:33) feel empty. Because if you don't feel (00:18:34) empty, you never feel full. So that (00:18:36) means you have to be able to say, "I (00:18:38) miss. I'm lonely. Oh my goodness, that's (00:18:40) a vulnerable feeling." But it turns out (00:18:42) that it's very important. And and when (00:18:44) we can't make things work, we have to (00:18:46) feel the futility around that. So a bit (00:18:48) of sadness and that brings rest and (00:18:50) release, too. And so that's the layer. (00:18:53) There's there's rest from the relentless (00:18:56) pursuit of contact and closeness. It has (00:18:59) to be felt to find rest. And then the (00:19:02) last science to come on here is we (00:19:04) realize that oh my goodness the drive to (00:19:07) play which is an instinct so important. (00:19:10) The more complex the creature the more (00:19:12) they must play for uh potential to (00:19:15) unfold. Cats have to play their whole (00:19:17) life. Humans are a bit more complex. We (00:19:19) do as well. And that that play is (00:19:23) actually activated rest. So you can say, (00:19:26) "Wow, the challenge is that we need to (00:19:28) rest from the pursuit of contact and (00:19:31) closeness to grow up. Not to grow older, (00:19:33) but to grow up, right?" And part of that (00:19:36) rest is feelings. And part of that rest (00:19:38) is to be playful. And now we've got the (00:19:42) four essential needs. We've got (00:19:44) attachment, feelings, rest, and play. (00:19:47) >> Now, I I want to ask you something. Um, (00:19:51) again touchy (00:19:53) at least for me when I when I looked at (00:19:55) the list (00:19:57) in a way I felt sad because (00:20:01) I don't think a lot of children if any (00:20:04) at least in some generations experienced (00:20:06) all four. I'm not even speaking about my (00:20:10) parents or grandparents. I can't even (00:20:12) imagine. But could you speak a little (00:20:15) bit to how would an adult who didn't get (00:20:19) each of them satisfied would look like? (00:20:21) So for the people who are watching us, (00:20:23) maybe they can identify which of them (00:20:25) wasn't satisfied and what they need to (00:20:28) learn. Again, I'm going to give an (00:20:30) example with something that became clear (00:20:33) to me in therapy and reflecting and also (00:20:36) by being inspired by your work with the (00:20:38) attachment part. Over time, I learned to (00:20:41) become securely attached. Even though (00:20:43) out of childhood, I uh got out with an (00:20:46) avoidant attachment style. In Romania, (00:20:48) before the communist regime fell, our (00:20:50) mothers would have six months of leave (00:20:54) and then you would be outsourced to the (00:20:56) parents or some form of caregiver. So, (00:20:59) attachment, let's say, is the not (00:21:02) necessarily the easiest is the (00:21:03) primordial one, but is the one people (00:21:05) focus most on. Now rest, complete rest (00:21:09) was something that even now as an adult (00:21:11) I'm trying to learn. (00:21:12) >> Yes, (00:21:13) >> I didn't experience that while being a (00:21:15) child. This feeling of being completely (00:21:17) being able to rest completely. (00:21:19) >> And in adult life, I see myself when I'm (00:21:23) on vacation or when I'm in a moment when (00:21:25) I could rest, there's a part of me (00:21:28) >> deep restlessness (00:21:29) >> that gets engaged that needs to Yeah. (00:21:31) So, so that's what I would invite you to (00:21:34) speak to. How do they look like in the (00:21:36) adult and what could we do for each in (00:21:40) order to heal or to rewire in a way our (00:21:43) nervous system if we didn't get them? (00:21:45) >> That's a big question you asked (00:21:47) >> for for the rest of the episode. (00:21:49) [laughter] (00:21:49) >> Big question. (00:21:51) Yes, there's so many parts of that (00:21:53) answer, but but first of all, I think (00:21:56) you nailed it uh Paula in terms of how (00:22:00) restlessness (00:22:02) is the issue of our age. (00:22:05) >> Yeah. (00:22:06) >> And how we have been unable to find that (00:22:08) deep sense of of of rest. We (00:22:12) can't rest in what is provided for us. (00:22:16) the love that others have for us, the (00:22:18) invitation to exist in their presence. (00:22:20) We have difficulty trusting it. We have (00:22:22) difficulty taking it for granted. We're (00:22:25) afraid it will go away and we can't rest (00:22:27) in there. (00:22:28) >> Exactly. (00:22:29) And so there's this deep restlessness (00:22:31) and the uh there's a great equalizer in (00:22:36) nature is uh when something has worked (00:22:39) for us when we are are invited to exist (00:22:42) in another's presence when that really (00:22:46) is there are no conditions on that. So (00:22:49) what really could bridge the differences (00:22:51) and the disagreements and the conflict (00:22:54) and we can take for granted it is a (00:22:56) place of deep longing in us and deep (00:22:59) rest and you know you would hope that (00:23:01) every child would have that answered but (00:23:04) uh but when it is not there (00:23:08) and we can feel the futility of actually (00:23:13) fixing that problem if our animating (00:23:15) brain the I use the word animating brain (00:23:18) because Our heart which is really in our (00:23:21) brain is that which moves us. And so we (00:23:24) can think of the animating the animating (00:23:26) principle there. It has to feel its way (00:23:27) through. It doesn't think its way (00:23:29) through. (00:23:30) >> It has to feel its way through. And if (00:23:32) it uh when uh when it can feel the (00:23:36) futility of fixing a problem, you can (00:23:39) fix things situationally, but you can't (00:23:41) fix things relationally. That's out of (00:23:43) our hands. We can't make people want to (00:23:45) be with us. we can't make people like us (00:23:48) anymore. Uh give us that invitation to (00:23:50) exist. And so there's really nothing (00:23:52) left to do but feel the futility. And (00:23:54) when we do as humans, little children, (00:23:57) our eyes water. And so this whole idea (00:24:01) of of on the other side the the the the (00:24:04) Greek tragedy that is there and (00:24:06) associated with these tears of futility (00:24:09) which is very different than the tears (00:24:10) to other kinds of things uh upset and (00:24:13) frustration. But there is rest on the (00:24:15) other side of that because the brain (00:24:18) rests from futile attempts to make (00:24:21) things work that don't. And there's no (00:24:23) more important thing to work than (00:24:25) contact and connection. And so grieving (00:24:28) in whether it's a little thing uh that (00:24:31) I'm going to miss mommy tomorrow and I (00:24:34) can't keep her home. that grieving in (00:24:36) however it is or the loss of somebody (00:24:39) brings to rest the brain says we've (00:24:43) survived something not working and it (00:24:45) brings to rest that place too and so (00:24:47) that is the great equalizer that I can (00:24:50) be born of love and I can be born of its (00:24:52) lack my potential can unfold but that (00:24:56) both have to be felt I have to feel the (00:24:58) invitation to exist or I have to feel (00:25:01) the lack of invitation the missing the (00:25:04) longing that was unful fulfilled and (00:25:06) then when that's filled with tears my (00:25:09) brain is emergent and it's energy and it (00:25:11) unfolds and it's the great equalizer. (00:25:13) Now, we should yearn for every child for (00:25:16) us to be provide them so they can they (00:25:19) can find that place out of fulfillment. (00:25:21) But if we're a as adults, I spent my (00:25:24) whole lifetime as a therapist. I was (00:25:27) helping pull adults through the back (00:25:30) door. (00:25:31) >> Mhm. (00:25:31) >> Through being able to find their sense, (00:25:34) their their tears, their sadness about (00:25:37) what was missing and lacking. And the (00:25:39) result is this incredible sense of rest (00:25:43) that is on the other side of the sadness (00:25:46) that has not yet been felt. There is the (00:25:48) landing place there as well. So the (00:25:51) answer to restlessness as as adults that (00:25:54) we find that inside of ourselves is not (00:25:58) finding somebody to love us so much. Uh (00:26:01) because it's it's that part of our (00:26:04) journey is over. We should be getting on (00:26:06) with providing that to somebody who (00:26:08) depends upon us is to be the answer to (00:26:11) our answer is to be able to have the (00:26:15) courage to to to feel the emptiness, the (00:26:19) spaces that are unfulfilled and to feel (00:26:22) the sadness around that. And that as an (00:26:24) adult therapist has been my life of (00:26:27) being a midwife to that place. Even when (00:26:30) I was dealing with with delinquents in (00:26:33) prison, (00:26:34) >> it still was the single most important (00:26:36) factor to come along to their side, make (00:26:39) it safe, (00:26:40) >> to feel the place that they couldn't (00:26:42) have done it. I I don't know if uh I'm (00:26:44) thinking right now of uh of goodwill uh (00:26:48) >> hunting. Hunting and it's not your (00:26:51) fault. (00:26:51) >> Yeah. It's not your fault, Will. It's (00:26:53) not your fault. And he goes and finally (00:26:56) he rests in this place. He just weeps in (00:26:59) that place, you know, where the (00:27:01) therapist gently holds him in the place (00:27:04) where there's nothing left to do but (00:27:05) cry. And that speaks to 50 years of me (00:27:08) as a therapist. That's what it was. You (00:27:10) know, one after another of those (00:27:13) experiences of trying to hold somebody (00:27:14) in that place and the rest that is found (00:27:16) there and the emergence that comes to (00:27:18) it. So as an adult, the story is very (00:27:21) different than for uh for what we want (00:27:24) to provide our children. We want to (00:27:26) provide our children with this, you (00:27:27) know, let's go through the front door (00:27:29) here through the togetherness. You know, (00:27:32) as one developmentalist said, you know, (00:27:34) every child deserves somebody to be (00:27:35) absolutely crazy about them, right? (00:27:38) >> Absolutely crazy to be able to hold on (00:27:40) to them and togetherness. I've got this. (00:27:42) You know, you matter to me. You matter (00:27:44) to me. Whether, you know, I have bad (00:27:46) days or good days or whether I'm (00:27:48) disappointed in you or not, you matter (00:27:50) to me. you know, I uh you know, I uh (00:27:54) I've got your heart here. And so, as (00:27:56) much as possible, but we always have (00:27:58) lacks. No parent could be perfect. So, (00:28:01) there's always hope for us. And the hope (00:28:03) is that there is this back door as well (00:28:06) to rest. (00:28:10) I remember from your book and it it uh (00:28:13) made me think a lot this idea that for a (00:28:16) child it's important to feel at some (00:28:19) point futility. (00:28:21) >> Yes. (00:28:22) >> Yeah. So when they don't get what they (00:28:24) want (00:28:24) >> the channel has to be open. (00:28:26) >> Yeah. (00:28:26) >> Yes. (00:28:27) >> Could you speak a little bit to that? (00:28:28) For me that was (00:28:31) in a way new and mind opening because I (00:28:34) didn't see the link between it. M (00:28:37) >> so when a child wants something we had (00:28:39) questions from our our audience we had a (00:28:41) mother saying how can I manage the the (00:28:44) aggression that my daughter has she's (00:28:46) three and she she's having tantrums and (00:28:50) I remember from hold on to your kids (00:28:52) this idea that first comes anger and (00:28:55) protest and then at some point if the (00:28:58) parent is loving the attachment (00:29:00) relationship is there is being held I (00:29:02) give you the message that I love you (00:29:04) regardless of what happens but you won't (00:29:05) get your way. So limits. (00:29:08) >> Yes. (00:29:08) >> The child transitions into this state of (00:29:11) futility. Regardless of how much I cry (00:29:14) or what I do, I don't get what I want. (00:29:17) Then comes the sadness (00:29:20) out of that. And if I can rest in the (00:29:22) parents arms after experiencing that, (00:29:26) that's the proper way that things (00:29:29) happen. (00:29:30) >> Yes. Could you talk a little bit more (00:29:32) about this dynamic especially because a (00:29:34) lot of parents are confused. I I want to (00:29:37) touch also on that this idea of limits. (00:29:39) So the link between the child's needs, (00:29:42) limits, futility and being there. Yes, (00:29:45) >> it's a tapestry that maybe (00:29:47) >> it is a tapestry and it's a big question (00:29:49) and it is the human condition is that we (00:29:52) get frustrated and um we we come to our (00:29:56) limits because of realities because of (00:29:58) time because of mortality because our (00:30:01) brains require one-third downtime they (00:30:04) have to sleep uh uh because there's you (00:30:07) know limits to what I can do and so (00:30:10) we're up against that which we cannot (00:30:12) change and as far as the brain pain is (00:30:15) concerned. It has two things. It's this (00:30:16) problem solver uh and it uh it evokes (00:30:20) emotional operations uh alarm to move us (00:30:24) to caution, frustration to solve a (00:30:25) problem, pursuit to close the gap uh in (00:30:29) terms of it. And so it's always evoking (00:30:31) these emotional operations and to solve (00:30:34) a problem. But there are so many (00:30:36) problems we can't solve. And and the the (00:30:40) animating brain doesn't know that unless (00:30:42) the futility is felt. And so to feel the (00:30:46) futility again in a young child, the (00:30:48) eyes will water. There is a sense in uh (00:30:51) in the in from a um a nervous system (00:30:54) point of view. Uh when we're trying to (00:30:57) our brain is trying to make things work, (00:30:59) the amygdala, the gear shift of the (00:31:01) brain is in the sympathetic nervous (00:31:03) system drive. for those of your audience (00:31:05) who who understand the autonomic nervous (00:31:08) system, right? And so it is in gear and (00:31:12) it it is to make things work. Now when (00:31:14) it's registered in the in in the (00:31:17) animating brain where the amygdala is at (00:31:20) the nucleus of it that something doesn't (00:31:22) work, it goes and it moves from the (00:31:25) sympathetic to the parasympathetic. If (00:31:28) it moves very fast, you feel a bit of (00:31:30) shivering. You feel the blood (00:31:32) [clears throat] goes down and the eyes (00:31:34) water (00:31:34) >> and and so that is at the place where it (00:31:38) gets it that we can't get through this (00:31:40) way. Now that's very that is the essence (00:31:44) of of human transformation of human (00:31:46) recovery because the brain goes by the (00:31:49) algorithm will change whatever we can (00:31:53) and whatever we can't we must be changed (00:31:56) by that. Mhm. (00:31:58) >> But to be changed by that, it is the (00:32:01) work of first of all sadness in (00:32:04) introduces us us to that place and (00:32:07) that's a cocoon of our own (00:32:08) transformation. (00:32:10) >> And so human adaptation is not a (00:32:12) thinking thing. It's a feeling thing. (00:32:16) And we have to realize that that it's a (00:32:18) matter of the heart. It's not a matter (00:32:20) of of the interpretive brain or the (00:32:23) cerebral cortex. It's a matter. It's a (00:32:25) deep, deep thing. And so, how do you (00:32:28) translate this into parenting? Well, (00:32:31) when the baby is born, it's the first (00:32:33) time that they haven't been able to (00:32:35) control the circumstances [laughter] (00:32:38) and they hit gravity and it's cold out (00:32:41) and they don't have their warm surround (00:32:44) and naturally they cry. Now, they have (00:32:46) to cry for all kinds of reasons to clear (00:32:48) their lungs and so on and so on. But (00:32:50) part of it is that felt futility which (00:32:52) starts the human adaptation and the (00:32:55) brain goes you survived. You survived. (00:32:58) We can do this. Okay. And so but every (00:33:01) time they come up against something that (00:33:03) they cannot change (00:33:05) they would if not defended against it be (00:33:08) moved to these tears and then the brain (00:33:11) goes okay we need to change the (00:33:13) organism. We can't change the (00:33:14) circumstances. And so transport (00:33:17) transformation. So, how what do mom and (00:33:19) dad do? Well, mom and dad are agents of (00:33:22) futility. They decide what the (00:33:24) realities, what the limitations are. Not (00:33:26) a second story tonight. You need to go (00:33:28) to bed now. Uh this is what needs to (00:33:31) happen. No. Uh I can't let you crawl (00:33:33) there. You know, I have to pick you up (00:33:35) and so on. Well, when the when the brain (00:33:38) senses the futility and there's nothing (00:33:41) left to do but feel sad, that's when the (00:33:44) a little bit of transformation happens (00:33:46) each time. And so aggression in in in (00:33:51) society (00:33:52) is an indication (00:33:55) that that the they haven't been able to (00:33:58) go from mad to sad. They've got stuck in (00:34:01) foul frustration trying to change that (00:34:03) which they can't. It turns into (00:34:06) attacking energy and it's a greatest (00:34:08) indicator. The greater there is (00:34:10) aggression, violence, self attack in (00:34:12) society. If you think suicide is the (00:34:15) ultimate indicator of a lack of (00:34:16) adaptation, right? And it's self attack. (00:34:19) So it becomes obvious. Violence is the (00:34:22) ultimate indication that someone has not (00:34:25) adapted to the circumstances they're in. (00:34:28) And so aggression and suicide are (00:34:31) ultimate indicators. They're (00:34:32) [clears throat] escalating in today's (00:34:34) society, which tells us it tells us we (00:34:37) have so much we need to be having our (00:34:40) sadness about. And if a toddler can't (00:34:42) move from mad to sad, he's already in (00:34:45) problem. Already a problem. Now, (00:34:47) sometimes mom and dad are contributing (00:34:49) to that by not, you know, by being too (00:34:52) afraid to have the child experience (00:34:54) upset, right? or by the fact that the (00:34:57) child has experienced too much threats (00:34:59) to togetherness. And so they're so (00:35:00) defended against feelings that they (00:35:03) can't ever real realize that place cuz (00:35:05) it takes vulnerability to actually feel (00:35:08) when you're up against that which you (00:35:09) cannot change. Like when you get your (00:35:12) first glimpse of mortality, (00:35:14) >> you know, like, oh my goodness, it's (00:35:16) like, well, there's nothing left to do (00:35:18) but cry. There's nothing left to do but (00:35:20) to feel the sadness. are when you get (00:35:22) your first rejection, real big rejection (00:35:24) as a as an adolescent and you've fallen (00:35:26) in love and you've given your heart and (00:35:29) you know and you think you can control (00:35:30) it and all of a sudden she doesn't want (00:35:32) to have anything to do with you and you (00:35:33) go like really there's nothing left to (00:35:35) do but cry but if you don't do it you (00:35:37) you feel like attacking everything. You (00:35:39) feel like getting mad. Well, being able (00:35:41) to move from mad to sad is the most (00:35:44) significant movement for human (00:35:46) civilization. And so when the Greeks (00:35:49) discovered this, when the ancient (00:35:51) Greeks, when when Socrates and Plato and (00:35:54) Aristotle, what became most important? (00:35:56) Well, they said, "Wait, how do you get (00:35:58) adults to tears?" Well, you've got to do (00:36:01) it in the play, One Step Removed. (00:36:03) >> So, you create a tragedy. (00:36:05) >> Wow. (00:36:06) >> Where they watch somebody else who's up (00:36:07) against this, so there's nothing left to (00:36:09) do but cry. (00:36:10) >> And then he said, "Well, that's our (00:36:12) route to civilization." They said, "That (00:36:14) will keep us from attacking each other." (00:36:16) You see, and so this is where play comes (00:36:18) in. You see, it's we think of play as (00:36:21) physical. The Greeks thought of play as (00:36:24) emotional playgrounds, drama, theater, (00:36:27) painting, music, all of these things. (00:36:29) And they were right. Now we know it's (00:36:31) emotional playgrounds. But that is and (00:36:34) and so this is what is critical to (00:36:37) civilization. It is to be able to find (00:36:40) the sadness about what it is that we (00:36:42) cannot change. That is the answer to (00:36:43) recovery, to resilience, to human (00:36:45) adaptation. It is our answer. (00:36:48) >> I never thought about it that way. Thank (00:36:50) you for making this connection. Is is (00:36:52) both uh nurturing for the heart and for (00:36:55) the mind. Now, if my understanding is (00:36:58) correct, I want to check this with you. (00:37:00) So, when we're kids, it's important that (00:37:02) our parents help us make this transition (00:37:04) from mad to sad. And if our brains learn (00:37:08) this process, then our brains can do it (00:37:11) in adult life. (00:37:12) >> We're not so afraid of it. Keeps it (00:37:14) open. Our hearts are soft, so to speak, (00:37:17) not so hardened. (00:37:19) >> Now, (00:37:21) for in in the parenting process, if kids (00:37:25) get stuck in aggression, and we have a (00:37:27) mother that sees this in her daughter, (00:37:30) so something went wrong, probably she (00:37:32) couldn't make the transition. What can (00:37:34) the parent do to heal it, fix it in a (00:37:38) way if we didn't step with the right (00:37:40) foot forward? Let's say if it if it (00:37:42) didn't do it right at first, how can we (00:37:44) mend it? Both when we're kids (00:37:47) in adult life, probably therapy, opening (00:37:50) up again, softening the heart, all of (00:37:52) the things that Gabbor also shared, and (00:37:54) I know you were part of that process for (00:37:56) him. If we're still kids and the parent (00:37:59) sees a kid that's angry all the time, (00:38:01) angry, angry, angry, and can't make the (00:38:03) transition to sadness, how can the (00:38:04) parent help? That's a great question, (00:38:07) and I'll start with the child, not the (00:38:09) adult. uh in the child. Uh I I usually (00:38:14) uh try to help parents say to to (00:38:17) visualize what it would what it would (00:38:20) what would it mean for you to be able to (00:38:24) hold your child hold metaphor not (00:38:28) physically. Okay. Okay. Hold as a (00:38:30) metaphor. Okay. For clarifying hold that (00:38:34) child. If you try to hold them (00:38:35) physically, it will exacerbate the (00:38:38) aggression and you'll get violence out (00:38:40) of it. So, not do this to So, to (00:38:42) visualize how to hold in a space, how to (00:38:44) hold in warmth, how to hold in (00:38:45) relationship, how to keep from being (00:38:47) distracted in a space until there's (00:38:50) nothing left to do but cry. (00:38:52) >> This this is a little bit tricky. You (00:38:54) act as an agent of of futility. No, I (00:38:58) [snorts] said no. I'm in charge. I can't (00:39:00) let you do that. You know, but mommy, I (00:39:03) want to. I want to. Mommy, I want to. (00:39:04) I'm mad at you, Bubby. No. I said, "No." (00:39:07) But then alternating with being the (00:39:09) angel of comfort coming alongside. I (00:39:11) know that makes you so frustrated, (00:39:13) honey. I know that's what you wanted to. (00:39:15) You didn't want me to say no. (00:39:17) >> Can I then? No. I'm in charge. And so, (00:39:20) what would it be to gently hold? Because (00:39:22) when they do that, they're they're (00:39:25) actually should become credentialed as a (00:39:28) therapist. That's basically all a (00:39:29) therapist does. Absolutely. (00:39:31) >> Is hold somebody in the experience. No, (00:39:33) like again, goodwill hunting. There's (00:39:35) nothing you could have done. It wasn't (00:39:37) your fault. We can't change the past. (00:39:39) This didn't happen, right? You hold (00:39:41) gently in the experience of something (00:39:43) not working until there's nothing left (00:39:46) to do but sadness. If a parent can't (00:39:48) visualize that, if a parent can say it (00:39:51) would never happen, my child would just (00:39:53) get stuck in follow frustration. It (00:39:55) would go very, very badly. Then we don't (00:39:57) go there. We would try maybe a day or (00:39:59) two days later to just gently touch the (00:40:02) place. You really wanted me to do this. (00:40:04) You were very frustrated. You wanted to (00:40:06) do it. And just gently touch that place (00:40:08) where the futility is. If the child (00:40:11) bolts out, I hate you, you stupid, you (00:40:13) know, and goes into aggression. No, the (00:40:16) child is way too defended. Now it will (00:40:19) be important for you to take the foul of (00:40:21) frustration and find legitimate (00:40:23) emotional playgrounds where they can (00:40:25) attack something, they can throw (00:40:27) something, they can Okay, legitimate uh (00:40:30) emotional playgrounds. You can think of (00:40:32) adult equivalents, you know, legitimate (00:40:34) emotional playgrounds where they can get (00:40:36) this out because there's a lot of foul (00:40:38) energy in there that's going to be (00:40:40) hurting things or themselves, etc. to (00:40:42) buy you time. But also that play will be (00:40:46) the answer to touch on the underside of (00:40:49) sadness. Because the thing about sad (00:40:51) music, the thing about lullabibis, the (00:40:53) thing about uh about music in the minor (00:40:56) key which is structured to invite (00:40:58) sadness is it makes it feel sweet. The (00:41:01) thing about play is it's ultimately (00:41:03) engaging and it sweetens it. So when we (00:41:06) have a sad story, part of us doesn't (00:41:08) want to hear it and part of us just and (00:41:10) we'll begin to feel our sadness. You (00:41:12) warm it up. And this is the way it was (00:41:15) warmed up for us as adults. Most things (00:41:17) are too much for us. We're sensitive. (00:41:19) We're sensitive as creatures and we need (00:41:21) to touch it one step removed in a in a (00:41:23) puppet in a, you know, in a in a story, (00:41:27) in a bit of music, in in a, you know, in (00:41:31) a movie. We need to watch it. So, you (00:41:33) warm it up from from the bottom up (00:41:37) before you can get it from the top down. (00:41:39) So what I just described to you is is (00:41:42) actually, you know, my 50 years of work (00:41:44) as a therapist. The same is true for (00:41:46) adults. Exactly the same is is it's true (00:41:50) for adults. If that's not a place that (00:41:52) you can land on, if it it just is way (00:41:55) too vulnerable, then take it one step (00:41:57) removed in a story. That's what they (00:42:00) bring into prisons nowadays. Incredibly (00:42:03) successful programs where they're (00:42:05) getting hardened criminals to play (00:42:07) Shakespeare. One step removed, touch a (00:42:10) tragedy, the eyes start watering, the (00:42:13) hearts soften, they find their their (00:42:16) they their compassion back, their desire (00:42:18) to live, their humanity comes back. This (00:42:21) is the single most important uh factor (00:42:25) now in all of these therapies, no matter (00:42:28) how. (00:42:30) >> Yeah. I as I I worked with very (00:42:33) disturbed young adults, schizophrenics, (00:42:35) very disturbed youngsters, three and (00:42:38) four year olds, as well as delinquents (00:42:39) with the whole normal population. And (00:42:42) after years of work, I realized there (00:42:44) was something in common. All of the (00:42:46) diagnosis I was working with, you could (00:42:48) call tearless syndromes. (00:42:51) Not that they didn't cry to pain or (00:42:53) upset, but there were no there was no (00:42:55) sadness. These were all basically issues (00:42:58) of human adaptation. Now that doesn't (00:43:00) mean that there's not something that (00:43:03) we're not born with things wrong with (00:43:04) the brain. Somebody can born with one (00:43:07) hemisphere all not working. But the more (00:43:10) that is not working, the more the brain (00:43:13) has to feel the sadness to restore the (00:43:15) plasticity to find workarounds. And so (00:43:18) the more things that we have, learning (00:43:21) disabilities, blindness, all of these (00:43:24) kinds of things, the answer is in terms (00:43:26) of our brain to feel the futility of (00:43:28) what doesn't work. It is the universal (00:43:31) answer for recovery to to (00:43:34) Gabber quotes me often and and he says (00:43:38) well Newfeld says that we could only be (00:43:40) saved through a sea of sea of tears and (00:43:43) yes but I but it's not because Newfeld (00:43:46) says that it's because that is in a (00:43:49) sense the reality the way it works in (00:43:51) the brain. If the if the brain if a (00:43:53) human can't solve a problem we must feel (00:43:56) the futility for transformation to (00:43:58) occur. It's that simple. (00:43:59) >> Beautifully summed up. And thank you. (00:44:02) You you opened a new door here. I wanted (00:44:05) to ask you uh what's your view on this (00:44:08) dynamic in temperament and personality (00:44:10) between nature and nurture since you (00:44:12) brought up the idea that things can be (00:44:15) we we come with a baggage. We're not (00:44:18) tabularasa sort of say. So how should (00:44:22) parents look at this? It's is more of a (00:44:24) scientific question than a practical (00:44:26) one. But what's the 2025 view on nature (00:44:29) versus nurture when it comes to (00:44:31) temperament and personality? (00:44:32) >> Well, I'm I'm interested in the (00:44:34) spontaneous unfolding of potential and (00:44:37) the conditions that are conducive to (00:44:38) that. That goes across gender, across (00:44:41) disability, across diagnosis. It goes (00:44:44) across whether you have a PhD or not, (00:44:46) education, richness, poverty. So, I'm (00:44:50) only interested in those questions. Does (00:44:52) it make a difference whether you have (00:44:54) means or not? Whether you have poverty (00:44:56) or not or education or not. Well, no ma (00:44:59) no matter how much education you have, (00:45:01) no ma matter how much money you have, no (00:45:03) matter how smart you are, it doesn't (00:45:06) mean that you're going to grow up as you (00:45:08) grow older. (00:45:10) >> These are not the answers. And so to (00:45:12) find out what, you know, is a male brain (00:45:15) different than the female brain (00:45:17) different? Well, to me, the differences (00:45:20) are are minuscule. They're they're (00:45:23) minute. They have nothing to do with the (00:45:24) unfolding of our human potential. They (00:45:27) may have something to do with individual (00:45:30) but not human. So as a as a (00:45:32) developmentalist, I'm interested in the (00:45:35) universals. I'm not interested in the (00:45:38) individual differences because the (00:45:40) individual differences, they they are a (00:45:42) lot of fun, but they don't inform (00:45:45) parenting. they don't inform the the (00:45:48) basic question is what role as a (00:45:52) grandparent can I play in the unfolding (00:45:55) of of the potential of my grandchild (00:45:59) whether you know whether they are a boy (00:46:03) and would prefer to be a girl whether (00:46:06) they are are a girl or a boy whether you (00:46:09) know whether they have an IQ of of of 60 (00:46:13) or 160 (00:46:15) >> [snorts] (00:46:15) >> And so the the same is true. So I I I (00:46:20) could say there we have wonderful rich (00:46:23) personalities and there are all kinds of (00:46:26) things we could talk about but they (00:46:29) distract (00:46:30) >> from what is essentially true. You know (00:46:33) what does a plant need? Well, how many (00:46:35) different plants we have? (00:46:37) >> Well, it needs warmth. It needs (00:46:39) nurturance and so on and so on. So all (00:46:42) plants need something. And I'm (00:46:44) interested in all humans need something. (00:46:47) >> Let's get back to what matters then. Um, (00:46:51) you talked about aggression in kids. The (00:46:54) importance of feeling futility, the (00:46:56) importance of going through the the the (00:46:59) tears and the the sadness in order to (00:47:01) feel the rest in the parents arms (00:47:05) physically or metaphorically. (00:47:07) I wanted to ask you now a little uh (00:47:09) about shyness. I know you also focus on (00:47:12) that and it's something that parents are (00:47:14) preoccupied with. That's why I also (00:47:16) asked a little bit about temperament and (00:47:18) personality because some parents say my (00:47:20) kid is shy (00:47:22) >> as a personality trait. He's (00:47:24) introverted, doesn't take energy from (00:47:26) interacting with people that much. He (00:47:27) prefers to be alone. How can uh parents (00:47:30) be able to distinguish between a child (00:47:32) that's inclined to being more (00:47:34) comfortable by themselves, let's say, as (00:47:37) opposed to a child who developed shyness (00:47:41) because of experience? (00:47:42) >> It's a great question. And as we become (00:47:47) more society uh centric uh we live in (00:47:51) urban populations, (00:47:54) the instinct to be reserved for one's (00:47:56) people gets in the way. Mhm. (00:47:59) >> Uh this is a mamian instinct as part of (00:48:01) the attachment drive. U there is some (00:48:04) genetic component to it. Uh so it (00:48:08) appears to be that the more homogeneous (00:48:11) one's genetic pool, the more likely one (00:48:16) will be reserved for one's people. (00:48:18) >> Mhm. (00:48:19) >> But but be to be reserved for one's (00:48:21) people is only natural as part of the (00:48:23) polarization of dynamics. for me to per (00:48:26) pursue proximity or for the um uh for (00:48:30) the infant or for the toddler is to (00:48:32) resist proximity with anyone that would (00:48:35) compete with that relationship. And and (00:48:39) so horses, dogs, cats, we're all the (00:48:42) same in this way. Although we all like (00:48:45) to breed very social creatures so it (00:48:48) doesn't get in our way so that we can (00:48:50) have more than one trainer. But we all (00:48:52) know that there are dogs and cats that (00:48:54) you will will only be managed by one (00:48:56) person. They're reserved for one's (00:48:58) people, but they have cross cross (00:49:00) species attachments. And so their (00:49:02) village is is there. Uh so so first of (00:49:04) all in in a in a very social society or (00:49:08) society that's based around that social (00:49:11) an American society uh in in an (00:49:14) Australian society very highly valuing (00:49:18) gregariousness. (00:49:20) They perceive shyness. They pathize (00:49:23) shyness as social anxiety and will (00:49:26) actually uh um for instance if if a (00:49:29) child goes to school and doesn't talk to (00:49:31) anybody uh except u doesn't talk to (00:49:34) anybody at school they could be (00:49:36) diagnosed with selective mutism and it (00:49:38) would be considered to be pathological (00:49:40) when if if you're shy it doesn't feel (00:49:43) right to talk to anybody but to whom (00:49:45) you're attached to. you know, I've dealt (00:49:46) with scores of these cases. And I would (00:49:49) ask, well, who who does the child talk (00:49:51) to? Well, well, only to their mother. (00:49:53) Well, doesn't that give you a clue? You (00:49:57) know, they don't have a problem talking, (00:49:59) but they're reserved for their own (00:50:00) people. So, what does that mean? Means (00:50:02) that you've got to get into their (00:50:03) village of attachment. And how would you (00:50:05) do that? By by attaching to the mother (00:50:10) or having the mother attached to you. (00:50:12) And then they'll be able to talk to you (00:50:14) as well. And so you deal with it through (00:50:16) attachment. Now the problem is is is if (00:50:20) it's social anxiety, there's actually (00:50:22) alarm around other people. Shyness (00:50:25) itself, there's no alarm. When you see (00:50:27) pure shyness, uh my three-year-old (00:50:30) granddaughter, she's grandchild number (00:50:33) seven, (00:50:34) >> uh is very bright, but has a very strong (00:50:38) shy instinct. Then if she was sitting (00:50:40) here now with us and you would try to (00:50:43) talk to her, (00:50:44) >> she would be absolutely (00:50:47) stare you down like nope no interaction. (00:50:50) She will not smile at, look at, talk to. (00:50:53) I mean, she'll stare at you, but she'll (00:50:55) not interact with her eyes, right? (00:50:57) >> But oh, (00:50:59) for those to whom she attached to, (00:51:03) >> she is verbal. She has all kinds of (00:51:05) words and so on and that's the way it (00:51:07) should be. But [clears throat] children (00:51:08) were meant to be raised in a village, a (00:51:11) village of attachment. And they were (00:51:13) also meant to be introduced by their (00:51:15) parents to whomever it is they were (00:51:17) going to attach to. Now in today's (00:51:20) society, we have a lot of strangers (00:51:22) being involved with children, (00:51:24) >> which which makes them feel very (00:51:26) uncomfortable. It doesn't feel right. (00:51:28) But then we pathize that and push our (00:51:30) children. Come on, there's nothing to be (00:51:32) afraid of. And push them into this this (00:51:34) interaction. And so shyness, shyness (00:51:37) needs to be respected. And the way you (00:51:40) get a child out of shyness, there's two (00:51:42) ways. (00:51:43) >> One, you start building yourself the (00:51:46) village of attachment they need. So if (00:51:48) the child is shy with a daycare (00:51:50) provider, a preschool teacher, whatever (00:51:51) it is, you do the introductions, you (00:51:54) create, you do the matchmaking. (00:51:56) >> And so uh the child will will talk to (00:52:00) whomever you're attached to. (00:52:01) >> And the other thing is in the play mode (00:52:03) because in the play mode, the attachment (00:52:06) drive is at rest. In play, when the (00:52:08) brain is in the play drive, there is no (00:52:10) shyness there. And so all of our younger (00:52:14) grades at school should basically be (00:52:17) playbased because it pres it keeps a (00:52:20) child from experiencing the threats to (00:52:23) togetherness that is there and all of (00:52:26) the attachment instincts. There's not (00:52:27) only shyness, there's counterwill as (00:52:29) well where it doesn't feel right to do (00:52:31) the bidding of anyone you're not (00:52:32) attached to. And so shyness and and (00:52:36) counterwill literally (00:52:39) uh uh uh bring our education system (00:52:42) down. They make it one of the most (00:52:44) inefficient systems in the world because (00:52:47) we're farming out our children to (00:52:49) strangers. Their shyness and their (00:52:51) counterwill interfere. Then we blame the (00:52:53) kids and we we try to teach harder and (00:52:57) it it goes it it isn't going well (00:53:00) anywhere and it's getting worse and (00:53:02) worse (00:53:02) >> and there's no play also. (00:53:04) >> There's no play. (00:53:05) >> This is interesting also. So when we're (00:53:07) in play mode, the attachment drive calms (00:53:10) down. (00:53:11) >> Yes. the the the brain could only be the (00:53:14) the basic drives according to uh one of (00:53:17) the great developmentalists (00:53:19) uh David Elkind uh in uh in the states (00:53:24) is that the animating drive there (00:53:26) there's basically three basic drives (00:53:29) there's an outcome base we could call (00:53:31) achievement or accomplishment that is (00:53:34) where where you uh it's it's the work (00:53:38) mode you could say uh the attachment (00:53:40) drive which is about connection (00:53:42) togetherness. We could say it's a love (00:53:44) mode, right? So the work drive, the love (00:53:46) drive, and the play drive. And in the (00:53:49) play drive, it gives rest to the other (00:53:51) two drives. So the the play is active (00:53:54) drive. It's like you you you brought (00:53:56) your car up onto a hoist and so it's not (00:53:59) working anymore. You can work all the (00:54:01) gears. You can put it anywhere. It (00:54:03) doesn't count for real. Uh you're in the (00:54:05) play drive, so everything is pretend (00:54:07) imagination. (00:54:09) uh you know it's safe and the play drive (00:54:11) is where everything can be worked out. (00:54:14) It's it's where it's it's the equivalent (00:54:18) really to the psychological mind as (00:54:20) sleep is to the physical being. And so (00:54:23) it it uh a young child requires an (00:54:26) incredible amount of play. I uh my (00:54:30) assessment of Odessa, my this (00:54:33) granddaughter that I mentioned now, my (00:54:35) assessment of Odessa is that when her (00:54:38) proximity needs are taken care of, uh (00:54:41) the she would be approximately 80% in (00:54:44) the play drive her whole day (00:54:47) and and that would be about right I (00:54:50) would say for a three three-year-old (00:54:52) and uh that is a wonderful drive for the (00:54:55) brain. And it's a luxurious drive. That (00:54:57) is also the number one indicator of (00:54:59) emotional health and well-being. Even (00:55:01) for us as adults or whether you're 80 or (00:55:04) 8 months of age is playfulness. If (00:55:06) there's playfulness there, that's the (00:55:08) number one indicator. But because that's (00:55:09) a place where the brain is happy. Says, (00:55:12) "Hey, we're happy. We're, you know, (00:55:14) attachment needs are are taken care of (00:55:16) enough that, you know, we can be at rest (00:55:19) and I'm not trying to make something (00:55:21) work. You know, there's enough working (00:55:23) that I'm not trying to solve problems." (00:55:25) So it really is a happy brain and we (00:55:28) want we want our children's brains to be (00:55:30) happy. Learning is optimized there. It's (00:55:33) amazing. Learning is totally optimized (00:55:36) in the play drive. I mean all you have (00:55:38) to think of is when your brain is in the (00:55:39) play drive and you're watching, you (00:55:41) know, let's say a couple in a park play (00:55:43) chess or something like this and you (00:55:45) know all the moves, but as soon as you (00:55:47) have to do it yourself, you know, (00:55:48) [laughter] (00:55:49) you you've got all kinds of problems in (00:55:51) the play drive. We are amazing. (00:55:54) Excellent. And we need more of that. And (00:55:56) I thank you for sharing this because we (00:55:58) usually look at play at something that (00:56:00) only is applicable to childhood. When we (00:56:03) get to school, we need to learn. We need (00:56:05) to do homework. So we we are much more (00:56:07) engaged in this work, right? (00:56:09) >> Well, play. This is the joke. Science up (00:56:12) until 20 years ago had defined play as (00:56:16) purposeless activity. (00:56:19) And and the new science of play, which (00:56:21) is only 20 years of age, the new science (00:56:24) of play has discovered that play is (00:56:26) where all the good things happen. It's (00:56:28) nature incognito. It's it's where all of (00:56:32) this unfolds. It is absolutely amazing. (00:56:36) It is where the where development has (00:56:40) its lead. It's the greenhouse (00:56:41) development. It's the hospital for (00:56:43) [snorts] the wounded. The the play mode (00:56:45) is everything. And the the thing about (00:56:48) this is is it usually takes up to being (00:56:50) a grandparent to have burnt out of being (00:56:53) able to fix anything that you can, (00:56:55) right? And you're tired and uh and (00:56:59) you're facing your mortality cuz you've (00:57:00) had a diagnosis or two and you've lost (00:57:03) some loved ones and you know you can't (00:57:04) help keep it happening. You've lost some (00:57:06) friends and maybe some family has (00:57:08) predescased you and your heart is is it (00:57:11) hurts so much and and then you know you (00:57:14) have to play and you have a grandchild (00:57:17) and you're so thankful because you know (00:57:18) they have to play, right? And so finally (00:57:20) you can play and you have an excuse to (00:57:22) do it and you know it's not frivolous is (00:57:24) is you have to play. That's the only way (00:57:27) you can keep young. It's the only way (00:57:29) that you can deal with a world that has (00:57:31) become too much is you need to play. (00:57:34) Thank you so much for this message. (00:57:36) Wonderful. Now, I'm thinking of my (00:57:38) grandmother a bit because she's uh even (00:57:40) what you're saying about futility and (00:57:42) about sadness and about keeping the (00:57:45) heart open. So, that's a sign when we (00:57:47) when we're able to cry, especially in (00:57:49) old age, it's it means that our heart is (00:57:51) still open. (00:57:52) >> Yes. And a lot of people, we're not (00:57:54) talking about parenting anymore uh at (00:57:58) this point, but a lot of people, at (00:58:00) least in Romania, when they see people (00:58:02) crying because we're not comfortable (00:58:04) with this feeling. We we've never (00:58:06) learned to become comfortable with it. (00:58:08) [gasps] (00:58:09) Don't cry. You have nothing to cry (00:58:11) about. And we try to rationalize it and (00:58:13) find solutions. So, (00:58:15) >> well, thank you for it. And (00:58:17) >> we we've actually pathized it. We we now (00:58:19) consider it a sign of depression when (00:58:22) actually it's it's the cure for (00:58:25) depression. (00:58:25) >> Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you for sharing (00:58:27) this. I we're going to make reals out of (00:58:30) this and uh keep promoting this message (00:58:33) because it's so important. Now I want to (00:58:36) ask you a little bit about counterwill. (00:58:39) You touched uh upon it uh earlier. (00:58:43) We have parents that say how can I (00:58:46) survive the avalanche of nos that I get (00:58:50) from your book? I know that counter will (00:58:52) appears first at two or three somewhere (00:58:55) there and then it comes with a vengeance (00:58:57) in adolescence. (00:58:58) Could you speak a little bit what it is (00:59:01) and how can parents manage it (00:59:05) in this way that they can set boundaries (00:59:08) for the child's safety but also not uh (00:59:11) step on the child's counterwill and its (00:59:13) need for for independence for autonomy. (00:59:17) >> Oh, I love the way you ended that (00:59:19) because that is actually the part that (00:59:22) we often mistake it that it is about (00:59:25) that a child resists the will of others. (00:59:28) uh primarily to protect their own will (00:59:31) or developing will. (00:59:33) >> Now that is a halftruth but it's not the (00:59:36) most salient truth in it is part of the (00:59:40) attachment drive and and uh when we say (00:59:43) drive as a developmentalist we mean a a (00:59:46) whole group of instincts and emotions (00:59:48) that serve a particular end. uh in this (00:59:52) case uh contact and closeness connection (00:59:55) togetherness and so on and so shyness is (00:59:58) part of that reserved for one's uh one's (01:00:00) people until I there is a big enough (01:00:04) village or there (01:00:06) >> yes yes uh or in play and until I am (01:00:10) strong enough to be able to handle uh um (01:00:14) life uh not quite so dependent upon (01:00:17) attachment (01:00:19) counterwill (01:00:21) uh which uh was named in 1906 by a a (01:00:26) German auto rank (01:00:28) >> uh who know the good thing about German (01:00:31) is you can make up any term you want you (01:00:33) just string a couple of words together (01:00:34) and he strung the words together counter (01:00:37) will and in German will is a very big (01:00:40) construct it is about desire wishes uh (01:00:44) wants for another person expectations on (01:00:46) another person so it's a very big (01:00:48) construct and So the the idea here is (01:00:51) that there's a natural instinct to (01:00:53) resist being pushed around, to resist (01:00:55) coercion, to resist being controlled. So (01:00:57) if you feel somebody imposing their will (01:01:00) upon you, your natural instinct is to (01:01:02) resist it. Uh and and so he discovered (01:01:07) this and he actually named it the number (01:01:11) one cause of insecurity with children. (01:01:15) >> Okay? (01:01:15) >> Because it broke the relationship. It (01:01:17) broke the union. He he used the old (01:01:20) language. It broke the union. Okay. And (01:01:23) so (01:01:23) >> when kids experience it (01:01:25) >> when when they were in counterwe their (01:01:27) parents could not abide it (01:01:29) >> and it broke the union and then the (01:01:32) parent would use their relationship (01:01:34) against them. If you don't obey, I don't (01:01:38) like you so much. I you know they would (01:01:40) withhold their love and so on and so on. (01:01:43) And that he saw as a source of great (01:01:45) insecurity in children. in fact the (01:01:47) number one source of insecurity in (01:01:50) children. So it's very important to (01:01:52) understand that how we respond to a (01:01:55) child's natural counterwill and also (01:01:57) realize not to take it personally. It (01:02:00) doesn't feel right for the child (01:02:04) to be (01:02:06) uh pushed around to be told what to do (01:02:09) uh to to have this this artificial rules (01:02:15) imposed upon them unless (01:02:19) >> working (01:02:21) you got it (01:02:22) >> unless their attachment instincts are (01:02:24) activated. (01:02:26) So what has nature done? Nature says, (01:02:29) "Hey, I will protect that child from (01:02:33) being influenced, pushed around, told (01:02:35) what to do by anyone other than those (01:02:38) the child is actively attaching to." (01:02:41) >> So, this is nature's way of taking care (01:02:43) of us. So, we mustn't take it personally (01:02:48) when you're 2 and 1/2year-old says, (01:02:50) "Okay, well, you need to do this now. (01:02:53) Uh, you need to get dressed." No. Well, (01:02:56) no. I I'm I'm your parent. You need to (01:02:58) do this or you're not the boss of me. I (01:03:02) told you to do that. No. (01:03:05) And and it's it's surprising how they (01:03:07) could take us on. Right now, we actually (01:03:10) do all the same things in our own head (01:03:12) when people were not attached to or (01:03:13) telling us what to do. We have things (01:03:16) going on in our head that are equally (01:03:18) resistant. But of course, we know better (01:03:20) than to say them out loud because it (01:03:22) gets us into trouble, right? (01:03:24) >> So, we do it. But what is counterwill (01:03:26) serving? It's serving a good purpose. (01:03:29) Only for the young child, they have no (01:03:31) mixed feelings. So they they for them if (01:03:34) they are not directly attaching if they (01:03:36) were doing the uh their own thing and (01:03:38) you say clean up the toys. No, you're (01:03:41) getting this now. So what is key here? (01:03:44) Get back inside the connection. Collect (01:03:48) your child. Get their eyes. Get a smile. (01:03:51) Get a nod. and say now now when you feel (01:03:54) that connection which is the essence of (01:03:56) a greeting now we wouldn't be so crude (01:04:00) as to try to interact with our friends (01:04:02) without greeting first asking them to do (01:04:04) this or that or push them around or tell (01:04:07) us I want you to help me move we would (01:04:09) be getting their eyes their smiles and (01:04:11) their nods right and then in the context (01:04:13) of their nods we will be saying can I (01:04:15) ask you a favor or I would be doing this (01:04:17) and so this is our mistake is that we (01:04:20) think we can parent our children without (01:04:23) bringing and activating the attachment. (01:04:25) If we even try this with our partner, (01:04:27) our spouse, and we start bossing them (01:04:29) around without collecting them first, (01:04:31) we're going to get counter will as well. (01:04:33) So, this is a universal, this is a (01:04:35) universal dynamic. It's surprising we (01:04:37) don't even have a word for it. (01:04:39) >> And the only word we have is a madeup (01:04:40) word. It's ridiculous. We pathize (01:04:43) shyness. We don't even recognize that (01:04:46) people have a natural instinct to resist (01:04:48) being pushed around and told what to do. (01:04:50) No, this is there. Don't take it (01:04:52) personally. This is nature trying to (01:04:54) take care of our children and make sure (01:04:57) that to that they are only raised (01:05:00) properly inside of attachment. (01:05:04) >> The reason we have pets is because they (01:05:06) can make attachments to us. (01:05:08) >> But if they don't attach to us, we've (01:05:10) got trouble. The same is true for our (01:05:13) children. (01:05:14) And that includes our our adolescence. (01:05:16) We must have their hearts if we're going (01:05:18) to be able to be the person they need in (01:05:20) their life. So the answer is if you want (01:05:24) the child to set the table, (01:05:28) then take a little bit of time, get (01:05:29) their eyes a smile, go through that (01:05:32) liturgy of uh that ceremony of a (01:05:34) greeting, get a few nods about this and (01:05:38) and then place your request in the (01:05:42) context of activated attachment. And (01:05:45) you'll notice that things are completely (01:05:48) different. Counterwill will not be (01:05:50) activated in that particular dynamic. (01:05:53) >> I agree with you so much. But when I (01:05:55) look at the the the actual life (01:05:57) situation of parents (01:05:59) when they're exhausted now, we have a (01:06:02) lot of parents that are single parents. (01:06:06) I I know from your book that bribery and (01:06:09) coercion and stuff like that should be (01:06:12) the last resort. (01:06:13) >> Mhm. (01:06:15) Can you speak a little bit to this idea (01:06:17) of in what situations should the parent (01:06:21) use force if ever maybe for the child's (01:06:25) safety or I don't know (01:06:27) >> because I think parents should should (01:06:29) have a map of understanding I think they (01:06:31) already understand from our discussion (01:06:33) so far that they need to connect they (01:06:35) need to get into the attachment (01:06:36) relationship they need to rec reconnect (01:06:38) their child to them and then the child (01:06:40) is going to be far more willing to do (01:06:42) their bidding and trust them. [sighs] (01:06:46) But if you come exhausted, you come home (01:06:48) from work, you're exhausted, you're a (01:06:50) single mom or a single dad, and you say, (01:06:53) "Come and eat." (01:06:55) >> No. (01:06:56) >> Yes. [snorts] But but Powell, it's it's (01:06:59) it's a little bit like, "I'm so (01:07:01) exhausted. I don't have time to turn the (01:07:03) ignition on in the car. I'll just push (01:07:04) it instead." (01:07:05) >> I I I completely understand. I'm (01:07:08) curious. (01:07:10) >> But But attachment is the most powerful (01:07:11) force in the universe, right? When you (01:07:14) understand it that that's where your (01:07:16) natural power is, that attachment does (01:07:18) all the heavy lifting. (01:07:20) >> It it brings within a child a desire to (01:07:23) be good for you. (01:07:25) >> It captures their attention. It makes (01:07:27) them look in your direction. It has them (01:07:30) wanting to preserve closeness to you. (01:07:32) Why wouldn't you turn the ignition on in (01:07:34) the car? If you're exhausted, that's the (01:07:37) that's the the very most important thing (01:07:40) you would do. Mhm. (01:07:42) >> And so it it's knowing that there is (01:07:46) that nature (01:07:47) >> has not abandoned us. (01:07:50) >> Our role is to work with nature and how (01:07:54) nature works. (01:07:55) >> Mhm. (01:07:56) >> And and so there there are answers (01:07:59) there. There is power there. But it (01:08:01) doesn't lie in us being forceful. (01:08:04) >> It doesn't lie in us being, you know, (01:08:06) coercive. It's not just okay, I'll yell (01:08:09) louder or and the worst thing that we (01:08:12) have done in society is see intuitively (01:08:14) we know where our power lies. Let let me (01:08:16) give you an example. (01:08:18) >> Let's say we have a a have a (01:08:20) three-year-old and we brought her to the (01:08:21) playground. Um uh let's call her uh uh (01:08:26) give me a name. Meline. (01:08:27) >> Meline. (01:08:28) >> Okay. And so we've we brought Mad to the (01:08:31) playground. Mother is at the playground. (01:08:34) Young mother, maybe a first child. and (01:08:36) it's time to go. She has she has (01:08:39) something she has to tend to at home. (01:08:40) It's time to go. So, you know, she's (01:08:43) Googled that the fact that she needs to (01:08:46) give a warning. So, she gives a warning (01:08:47) to her three-year-old, you know, and so, (01:08:50) [clears throat] (01:08:50) you know, it gives a one minute warning, (01:08:52) a five-minute warning, and then says (01:08:54) time to go. And, uh, Meline's very (01:08:57) interested in staying at the playground (01:08:59) and says, "No, I don't want to leave. I (01:09:01) want to stay." Okay. And then maybe (01:09:04) there's other mothers at the playground (01:09:07) and or other parents at the playground (01:09:09) and uh the mother is feeling a little (01:09:12) bit like she can't control her child and (01:09:14) feeling a little bit of shame around (01:09:16) this and so on and so on. (01:09:17) >> And so she's searching for what she can (01:09:20) do. Well, intuitively, you see, she (01:09:22) knows where her power is. (01:09:24) >> Intuitively, we all do. (01:09:26) >> And we know that it is in their need for (01:09:30) proximity with us. And so maybe Meline's (01:09:34) mother says, "All right, then. Well, I'm (01:09:37) going. You can stay here." And (01:09:39) disappears behind a shrub. (01:09:41) >> Okay. (01:09:43) >> That creates a threat to togetherness (01:09:44) for Meline. Okay. So if Meline's not too (01:09:48) defended against the relationship, (01:09:49) mommy, mommy, mommy, wait, I'm coming. (01:09:51) I'm coming. I'm coming. (01:09:54) >> Okay. So mother thinks, ah, [sighs] (01:09:57) I know where my power is. You see, I use (01:10:02) her need for togetherness against her. (01:10:05) And we've got a thousand variations of (01:10:07) this happening in parenting. Y (01:10:09) >> cuz they discover their intuitive power. (01:10:12) >> But here's what happens. That threat to (01:10:14) togetherness not only evoked an intense (01:10:18) emotion of pursuit, but also of alarm. (01:10:21) >> Mhm. (01:10:22) >> And also frustration. (01:10:24) Now only one emotion will drive that (01:10:26) child at a moment. So maybe the pursuit (01:10:29) for proximity will be there. When the (01:10:31) child gets home (01:10:33) >> and has a little sibling or there's a (01:10:35) pet, all of a sudden the frustration (01:10:37) comes out, but mother doesn't know where (01:10:39) the frustration came from and does (01:10:41) another time of say you can't be my (01:10:44) friend if you're going to be like that (01:10:45) or go to your room. There's another (01:10:47) threat to togetherness. And then later (01:10:49) on when it comes time to sleep, the (01:10:51) alarm is still there and now the child (01:10:53) is afraid of monsters under the bed and (01:10:55) doesn't want to sleep alone. And mother (01:10:58) doesn't see that all of these things are (01:10:59) related and keeps on moving to control (01:11:04) her child through where her natural (01:11:06) power is. Now how different would have (01:11:08) been if she knew really knew where it (01:11:11) was and knew that the most important (01:11:13) thing would be to preserve togetherness. (01:11:16) All she would have had to do in the (01:11:17) playground, (01:11:18) >> y (01:11:19) >> is spend 30 seconds in collecting that (01:11:23) child, getting the eyes going down on (01:11:26) bended, you know, to the knee, getting (01:11:28) the eyes, you're enjoying this so much, (01:11:31) getting some nods, getting the glint of (01:11:33) the eye, you know, you know, getting (01:11:36) some togetherness there. And that would (01:11:38) have given her the chance to say, "I've (01:11:40) got something for you at home that you (01:11:42) will do or maybe even not, but taken her (01:11:46) hand." And away they would go because (01:11:48) now she was working inside the (01:11:49) relationship where all her natural power (01:11:52) was. We have as a society (01:11:57) used children's need for togetherness (01:11:59) against them. And that has driven the (01:12:03) most anxious generation, the most (01:12:05) frustrated generation, the most restless (01:12:08) generations with all kinds of problems (01:12:11) feeling cared for uh and and so on. And (01:12:15) this is this is what we're saying. No, (01:12:17) this is the fundamental need of a child. (01:12:21) Why would we use their fundamental (01:12:23) hunger against them? We won't hold their (01:12:25) food. We won't say, "Well, unless you (01:12:27) are a good kid, I won't feed you." We (01:12:30) know better than that. Why would we (01:12:32) withhold the togetherness and say and to (01:12:35) bridge everything and say no the bottom (01:12:37) line is you're invited in my presence (01:12:40) >> only if (01:12:41) >> no if (01:12:42) >> I and I remember that even from my my (01:12:45) own childhood not necessarily walking (01:12:47) away but not speaking (01:12:50) stonewalling. (01:12:50) >> Yes. (01:12:51) >> I remember the alarm. Yeah. The evil (01:12:54) eye, the cold shoulder, you know, all of (01:12:57) these things. the various ways we say, (01:12:59) "Okay, kid, work for it. (01:13:00) >> You've got to work for my love. You got (01:13:02) to work to be good. You got to work to (01:13:04) this. My love is is, you know, is not (01:13:07) free. You've got to earn it." And that (01:13:11) is the worst message. Whether it's done (01:13:13) in a, you know, no, I'm I'm I don't use (01:13:16) any brutality. I don't hit my child. I (01:13:18) don't do this. But I say to my child, I (01:13:20) can't be your friend if you're going to (01:13:22) do this. It's the same thing. (01:13:24) I'm still using. It's not fear-based in (01:13:28) this case, not direct fear-based, which (01:13:30) is dreadful, but it's still alarmbased (01:13:33) in the sense that I use the threats to (01:13:35) togetherness. I withhold and I get my (01:13:38) child coming this way. Now, if we (01:13:40) treated a friend this way, how long (01:13:41) would they be our friend? (01:13:44) >> Yeah. (01:13:46) [sighs] (01:13:48) >> There's something that uh popped into my (01:13:50) head now while we were speaking. The (01:13:52) fact that for me for example, (01:13:56) the fact that I experienced that also (01:13:58) had a side effect that I only realized (01:14:00) late in life. (01:14:03) The fact that I was invited to work for (01:14:05) it in adult life makes me become very (01:14:08) angry when I work for it and I don't get (01:14:11) it. (01:14:11) >> Yes. Yes. (01:14:12) >> It's another side effect (01:14:14) >> because I learned when I was if I do (01:14:16) this and this and this and that, I (01:14:18) should get it. (01:14:19) >> And that keeps you from your tears. You (01:14:21) see, because ultimately (01:14:24) >> it it's other people's decisions whether (01:14:26) they like you, want to be with you, you (01:14:28) matter to them. (01:14:30) >> And there's really not anything we can (01:14:32) do about it. If if what it is is that we (01:14:35) can do things that they that make them (01:14:37) like us, they're really only liking the (01:14:39) things we do and not us. (01:14:42) >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's probably this (01:14:44) idea of unconditional love that we hear (01:14:46) about in books and podcasts. (01:14:48) >> Yes. And I'm just trying to spell it out (01:14:51) is yes, of course it is. It is there. Uh (01:14:54) but there's two things about this is it (01:14:57) doesn't matter how much we love a child, (01:14:59) how perfect a parent we are. If the (01:15:03) child isn't attached to us, it doesn't (01:15:05) get through. (01:15:07) >> And so the message of the book of Hold (01:15:09) on to your kids is before culture kept (01:15:12) children attached to us. Well, we've (01:15:15) become materialistic. our culture no (01:15:17) longer serves relationships. And so now (01:15:19) we've got to do the relational work. (01:15:21) We've actually got to keep the umbilical (01:15:23) cord hooked up so that our care can can (01:15:26) go through. We can't take care of an (01:15:27) adolescent whose heart we don't have and (01:15:30) they still need our care. And so it (01:15:32) becomes very important that we are able (01:15:34) to do that relational work and hence the (01:15:36) idea of hold on to your kids not to hold (01:15:39) them back, not to suffocate them but so (01:15:42) that they can let go. Speaking of (01:15:44) letting go, um, (01:15:48) how would a parent best manage the (01:15:52) balance between the need for autonomy (01:15:53) and independence, maybe when their kid (01:15:56) is rather small or in adolescence, (01:15:58) especially when they start having a (01:16:00) wider peer group, and the the desire to (01:16:04) support them and offer emotional safety (01:16:06) and detachment. (01:16:08) If you were a parent in today's world (01:16:11) with social media and with the (01:16:14) capitalism and everything that's (01:16:16) happening, the materialistic priority (01:16:18) rather than the relational one, how (01:16:19) would you manage this as a parent? (01:16:22) >> There were a couple of questions in (01:16:24) there. Uh let me see if I can go back to (01:16:26) your original one first. um the the the (01:16:29) main way of being able to handle uh the (01:16:33) um the growth uh for becoming their own (01:16:37) person. And in in the context of (01:16:40) attachment is the deeper the attachment, (01:16:42) the more room there is for (01:16:43) individuality. (01:16:45) >> Uh if the attachment is very superficial (01:16:47) at being the same, there's no room for (01:16:50) differences. And so the deeper the (01:16:52) attachment when you've when it is (01:16:54) emotional intimacy when is sharing all (01:16:56) that is within one there is lots of room (01:16:58) for individuality. In fact it assumes (01:17:01) individuality. (01:17:03) Um and so the the more I I make it easy (01:17:06) to attach and the deeper the attachment (01:17:09) the more it takes care of itself is that (01:17:12) the child feels there's room for them to (01:17:14) be their own persons. They don't have to (01:17:15) have the same ideas the same clothes the (01:17:18) same dress the same actions and so on. (01:17:20) There's lots of lots of room for that. (01:17:22) The the second answer to that question (01:17:24) is there's two invitations that are (01:17:27) essential part of parenting. One is the (01:17:29) invitation to exist in my presence. Uh (01:17:32) and with the responsibility of bridging (01:17:34) anything that would divide that is I I (01:17:37) am responsible not you. I am responsible (01:17:39) for this. And the second one is is the (01:17:42) invitation for the fruit of that to (01:17:45) become all that you can be all of of you (01:17:48) as a separate person. And if I invite (01:17:51) both the togetherness as well as the (01:17:54) separateness (01:17:56) >> there is the full uh full invitation (01:18:00) that is the essence of of my (01:18:03) responsibility as as a as a parent. (01:18:08) I I want to focus here on the idea that (01:18:11) some parents might have the tendency to (01:18:13) control because they want their kids to (01:18:15) be safe and they think they know better (01:18:18) and at times they might actually know (01:18:20) better. (01:18:22) So (01:18:24) if you see your child doing something (01:18:25) that you know is wrong for them, let's (01:18:27) say social media or spending a lot of (01:18:30) time on the screen, there's a lot of (01:18:31) research on this. How can they (01:18:37) how can they intervene in a way without (01:18:40) giving the message that I'm not (01:18:42) accepting you for who you are or I'm not (01:18:46) uh trying to make you out somebody (01:18:48) you're not just to please me. (01:18:52) Well, the (01:18:54) first of all (01:18:57) when you realize that the child has (01:18:59) relational needs to be with, to be (01:19:02) liked, to matter to, to belong uh to for (01:19:06) somebody to be on their side or find (01:19:08) their way to their side, for their (01:19:09) heart, you realize that it's not about (01:19:11) you having answers. It's about you you (01:19:13) being their answer. (01:19:15) >> Oh, what a wonderful difference. (01:19:17) >> And yes, there is. And when you first of (01:19:20) all when you realize you are their (01:19:21) answer, it does two things. Your heart (01:19:24) is both fulfilled (01:19:26) and you know your ultimate challenge (01:19:29) [clears throat] is to be responsible (01:19:31) with that, right? And so it gives you (01:19:34) your mission in in in your life as well. (01:19:37) It is the ultimate source of (01:19:39) fulfillment. It's it's a wonderful (01:19:41) experience in in you know in coupling (01:19:44) when you believe you are the answer to (01:19:46) the other. Oh, is that dance ever (01:19:49) exciting? It is better than romance. It (01:19:52) is absolutely you get drunk with that (01:19:54) really. It is so fulfilling of being (01:19:57) able to be the answer to to another. And (01:20:00) so there is is that when you realize (01:20:03) that there's a certain amount to which (01:20:05) you want to protect that place that you (01:20:07) are the answer because you know they (01:20:09) cannot find it in others in peers and in (01:20:12) things and in winning in video games and (01:20:15) in competing. And so you must preserve (01:20:18) that the the you must give the (01:20:21) restrictions while you can while you (01:20:23) have the natural power to be able to do (01:20:26) this to preserve (01:20:28) >> your place where there where they (01:20:31) experience the fulfillment of your (01:20:34) invitation to exist in your presence (01:20:35) where they matter to you where where you (01:20:39) are connected at the heart and and so (01:20:42) that's only natural that you would do it (01:20:44) but you best not do it by commands or (01:20:47) demands because you're going to get a (01:20:48) lot of counterwill and resistance, but (01:20:50) by ritual, by practice. It's just like (01:20:53) you would do three meals a day. These (01:20:55) are all ritualized. Do you believe that (01:20:57) they need to have the food? Yes. Do you (01:20:59) believe they need to sleep a certain (01:21:00) amount of time? Yes. But if you just (01:21:02) played this by, okay, we need to eat (01:21:04) now, we need to do this, it wouldn't (01:21:06) work. And so you build rituals around (01:21:08) this. And so parenting should be highly (01:21:12) ritualized (01:21:14) around the things that you believe are (01:21:16) in their best interests, including what (01:21:19) access they have to social media, what (01:21:21) they're ready for in these kinds of (01:21:23) things. Because what you're trying to do (01:21:25) is preserve the place where they can (01:21:28) they can feel their their nurturance. (01:21:31) You can protect them from a wounding (01:21:32) world. Uh but when you realize that (01:21:36) you're the answer, you tend to take (01:21:38) this, you know, more seriously (01:21:41) and uh and then have to weigh well (01:21:44) what's in their best interest and how do (01:21:46) I do this? And I think every parent has (01:21:47) to find their way through and they have (01:21:49) to do it for the reason of of uh of uh (01:21:54) really being able to provide those (01:21:57) conditions that are conducive to their (01:22:01) children becoming fully human and (01:22:02) humane, becoming all they were meant to (01:22:04) be. But it is very important to do that. (01:22:08) To not do that is to be reckless and (01:22:10) careless. And to simply look to Google (01:22:12) for the answers is to go to the norm as (01:22:15) being the answer and the norm is what's (01:22:17) getting in us into trouble is that the (01:22:20) normal is is no longer healthy. (01:22:23) And thinking about this idea of rituals (01:22:25) that you're describing is very (01:22:27) interesting like eating together. I (01:22:30) remember this with fondness from (01:22:31) childhood that eating together was the (01:22:34) nicest time in a way (01:22:36) >> spending time together or when people (01:22:38) would visit speaking of of the extended (01:22:40) village. I have this feeling and these (01:22:42) memories of childhood that when people (01:22:44) were visiting I was safe (01:22:46) >> because my mom was on good behavior when (01:22:48) other people were in the house. (01:22:50) >> Well, that's a good thing. Yes. (01:22:52) >> And I remember this with funness. So (01:22:55) it's interesting. So parenting should be (01:22:57) highly ritualized for the child's (01:23:01) safety, for the child's boundaries to (01:23:04) understand that we have rituals like (01:23:05) washing your teeth or (01:23:08) >> speaking about our day while eating or (01:23:10) no social media, no screen time, no (01:23:12) smartphones in the bedroom or while (01:23:14) eating. (01:23:15) >> Good. It's a good point to to drive (01:23:17) home. (01:23:17) >> And and the ritual you see is not an (01:23:19) argument. When you make a demand and the (01:23:21) child says why, you give the argument (01:23:23) because of this and because of that. A (01:23:25) ritual the argument is embedded in it. (01:23:27) It's invisible. (01:23:29) It the reason a ritual you do it is (01:23:31) because this is what you do. You always (01:23:34) do it. This is what happens before we (01:23:35) have a meal. This is what happens in the (01:23:37) meal. Maybe you trade conversations. The (01:23:40) problem is is when we turn everything (01:23:41) into an outcome and we give (01:23:43) explanations, we open up to argument for (01:23:45) everything. I have a question about uh (01:23:48) setting up the rituals. I I I imagine (01:23:52) it's easier to do it when they're small (01:23:54) because they will accept them more (01:23:56) easily than when their brain develops (01:23:58) and they start having a lot of uh (01:24:01) arguments. And so the most important (01:24:05) rituals like connecting and things, (01:24:07) playing complete rest should be set up (01:24:10) >> the smallest as soon as possible. your (01:24:13) collecting rituals, your good night (01:24:15) rituals, your storytime rituals, your (01:24:18) bathing rituals. All of these things are (01:24:20) not explained. They're just the thing (01:24:22) that happens. This happens after that (01:24:24) happens and so on. It's it's uh uh it's (01:24:28) best when it is there. But it it always (01:24:30) is like what is your ritual for your (01:24:32) adolescent when they when they come home (01:24:35) after a time of separation? Do you have (01:24:37) the time to collect? Do you have the (01:24:39) time to greet? to do you go you know (01:24:41) like the greeting ritual is the basic (01:24:44) ritual of all cultures of all times. (01:24:48) Why? Because it's a way of activating (01:24:50) the attachment instincts. What you're (01:24:52) what you're doing is your first ritual (01:24:55) always is to draw close. The greeting (01:24:58) ritual is to draw close. (01:25:01) That's what you do. Okay. Now we've got (01:25:03) the attachment instincts between us. Now (01:25:07) there's more likely that we're going to (01:25:09) find agreement. Now there's more likely (01:25:11) that you know I will have your attention (01:25:13) [snorts] all of those kinds of things. (01:25:14) So this is a basic ritual but this (01:25:17) ritual can be incorporated into the meal (01:25:20) time into story time into all of these (01:25:24) things which which all need to be there. (01:25:26) The ritual also protects against (01:25:28) competing activities that would (01:25:30) interfere. (01:25:31) >> Mh. And so if if they and so other (01:25:36) things that uh that may uh may interfere (01:25:41) with what are in the best interest and (01:25:43) so the less resources you have, if you (01:25:46) don't have a village, if there's not two (01:25:48) parents, if there's only a single (01:25:49) parent, you've got three or four kids, (01:25:52) ritual is your other parent. (01:25:54) >> Okay? (01:25:55) >> Ritual is the other way you do things. (01:25:57) You have to spend a little bit of time. (01:25:58) Maybe you're exhausted, but the little (01:26:00) bit of time you have, you would ask, (01:26:02) "How can I ritualize so that I am not (01:26:04) barking orders at my child?" Cuz when I (01:26:07) bark orders at my child, uh, and they're (01:26:10) not already engaged with me, I get (01:26:12) resistance. I get counterwill. I I get (01:26:15) uh, you know, I I I get push back from (01:26:19) them and it's exhausting and I start (01:26:22) explaining myself. And so that's why (01:26:25) ritual is there. As humans, we're (01:26:27) creatures of ritual, and they save us (01:26:30) from having to uh to make constant (01:26:34) decisions and explanations, (01:26:36) >> which is exhausting. (01:26:38) >> It's totally exhausting. Our brains (01:26:40) aren't meant meant for this. You know, (01:26:42) we have a there's enough for us to have (01:26:45) to figure out uh but we should ritualize (01:26:48) everything that occurs uh from day to (01:26:51) day, from week to week. Another question (01:26:55) regarding social media and (01:26:58) I'm sure you actually named it with the (01:27:01) the most anxious generation Jonathan (01:27:04) Heights work also on that (01:27:06) >> which fortunately is starting to change (01:27:08) some laws [laughter] in some countries. (01:27:11) Now, this is a serious problem because (01:27:13) this type of technology is something (01:27:14) that actually rewires our nervous (01:27:16) system. And it's proven the cerebellum, (01:27:18) the anterior singulate cortex, that a (01:27:21) lot of things uh go wrong, especially (01:27:23) after 2 hours of use per day. (01:27:28) >> The idea that bribery and coercion are (01:27:32) not to be used, does it apply if your (01:27:35) child is already addicted (01:27:38) to social media? Let's say you didn't (01:27:41) manage to do it right. You didn't have (01:27:43) the proper rituals. You didn't have the (01:27:45) proper limits for the child's safety. (01:27:48) You see that your kid is peer oriented, (01:27:50) not parent oriented, and you want to do (01:27:54) something about it. You understand the (01:27:55) negative circumstances. In that (01:27:57) situation, (01:28:00) could you just take the phone away or (01:28:02) should you force the kid not to use it? (01:28:06) let's say an adolescent, not a seven or (01:28:09) eight year old. (01:28:10) >> Uh when a child is addicted, you can't (01:28:13) really force anything. You just force (01:28:14) sneakiness. (01:28:16) >> Uh you take the phone away, uh second (01:28:18) phone can appear right away. There's (01:28:21) there's no way. These these devices are (01:28:23) small. It's not as if we have one (01:28:24) telephone in the house and it's the (01:28:26) center of the house anymore or one (01:28:28) television in which you can control (01:28:30) these things. Uh you can't even control (01:28:32) it with a seven or eightyear-old (01:28:33) anymore. And so we're uh an addiction is (01:28:37) an addiction that the the person is out (01:28:40) of control. They'll become sneaky. (01:28:42) They're they're it's self-evident to (01:28:44) them at any given moment that this is (01:28:46) what they need. They need contact in the (01:28:49) social media. They need to know if (01:28:50) they're, you know, whatever it is. Um (01:28:52) when when you're looking for for (01:28:55) connection in ways that aren't linked up (01:28:58) in cascading care where the the care (01:29:00) that you really need is not coming (01:29:02) through. These are not viable uh (01:29:05) attachments as far as nature is (01:29:07) concerned because all attachment is to (01:29:09) deliver care and so the viable (01:29:11) attachment is who is has a care that is (01:29:14) that you need right? (01:29:16) >> Yeah. (01:29:17) >> And so that is it's a cascading care (01:29:20) arrangement and coupling. It's taking (01:29:22) turns taking care of each other. And so (01:29:24) it's still an attachment arrangement. If (01:29:27) it's not attached then it's not going to (01:29:28) work. You want to be with each other. (01:29:30) You want to matter to each other and so (01:29:32) on. but taking turns taking care of each (01:29:34) other. Now, so the issue today in in in (01:29:38) social media, while you have the natural (01:29:40) power with the child, put the rituals in (01:29:42) place by all means. If you lose your (01:29:45) child to your peers, if you lose your (01:29:47) child to to social media, then the then (01:29:53) the wisdom in it, if you recognize it is (01:29:57) is instead of trying to deal with that (01:29:59) directly when you don't have the natural (01:30:01) power, you can't control a child who (01:30:03) can't control themselves. That's the (01:30:05) bottom line in addiction. You can't (01:30:07) control somebody who can't who isn't in (01:30:09) control of themselves. And so then (01:30:12) knowing that it's a relational problem, (01:30:14) you go back to start working at the (01:30:16) relationship, collecting them, bridging (01:30:19) anything that would divide, being able (01:30:21) to nurture that relationship. Remember, (01:30:24) they are so needy, otherwise they (01:30:25) wouldn't be addicted. And you are their (01:30:27) answer, not the addiction. And so giving (01:30:31) them the nurturance so they'll come back (01:30:32) to feed at your table so to speak (01:30:34) metaphorically that you are the answer (01:30:37) to being with to being like to caring to (01:30:39) love and so on. And so it it's it's a (01:30:42) slow route but it is the only really (01:30:45) route that you can get through of of (01:30:49) restoring the relationship. And that's a (01:30:51) good news there. It's never too late. (01:30:53) >> Okay? (01:30:54) >> Because relational work, we all need it. (01:30:56) the our relational needs are basic and (01:30:59) we need to matter. We, you know, we we (01:31:02) need to be close. Uh we need to be (01:31:05) significant. We want to be liked. These (01:31:07) are our relational needs. And when you (01:31:10) can convince a child that you're the (01:31:12) legitimate answer to this and you're the (01:31:14) only one that's safe because you don't (01:31:15) take it away when when they don't behave (01:31:18) and so on that it's there. as your power (01:31:21) increases, (01:31:23) >> you can bring more limits, rituals, and (01:31:27) also that you work inside of the (01:31:29) relationship. Don't try and do your work (01:31:31) when the relationship is its weakest. (01:31:34) Now, I for years and years, I was a (01:31:36) marriage therapist and and couples (01:31:38) continually try to work through their (01:31:40) differences or conflicts when they're (01:31:42) the least connected. (01:31:43) >> And I would say, "No, no, no. Find your (01:31:45) way to each other's side. Get each (01:31:47) other's hand. Okay? Hold it at the (01:31:49) table. Now find a way of working your (01:31:51) differences without breaking the union. (01:31:53) That is where you're going to find it. (01:31:55) That's the same with a child. Get the (01:31:57) connection. Work inside the connection. (01:32:00) When you feel it weaken, draw back and (01:32:02) work at the relationship until you can (01:32:04) go further. Don't work outside of it. (01:32:07) You'll be you'll go into force, (01:32:09) coercion, bribery. You'll be doing those (01:32:11) things. They will harm the relationship. (01:32:13) They will not build it. And so it's (01:32:15) relational work. The good news is (01:32:18) there's always something that can be (01:32:20) done there. Uh but you have to be (01:32:22) patient. (01:32:23) >> Thank you for underlining that. (01:32:25) [sighs and gasps] (01:32:27) I have just few more questions from the (01:32:28) community which are maybe uh very (01:32:32) specific. One uh of the the members (01:32:35) asked if how how can they handle a (01:32:39) situation where they're co-parenting (01:32:41) and the other parent says you're raising (01:32:44) the kid too much from books. (01:32:47) Usually the man would say that. Uh and I (01:32:51) want to link this to another question. (01:32:53) Maybe they go well together. If for a (01:32:56) kid, is it enough to have one (01:33:01) uh parent who's their attachment figure, (01:33:03) the securely attached parental figure? (01:33:07) So if the parents have different views, (01:33:10) you're parenting too much from books. I (01:33:13) was raised in a stoic matter and look at (01:33:15) how well I turned out. This is something (01:33:17) you hear a lot especially in Romania. (01:33:20) And if one parent is, let's say, (01:33:23) connected to everything we spoke about (01:33:25) in the last 1 hour and a half, is it (01:33:28) enough for the the kid to have a good (01:33:32) chance at getting the needs met? If the (01:33:35) attachment is significant, whether it's (01:33:37) to a grandmother, to an aunt, whether it (01:33:40) is to a mother, if it is significant for (01:33:44) the child, one attachment is enough (01:33:48) because that it only you only require (01:33:51) one womb in a sense. (01:33:54) That invitation because that that (01:33:57) relationship exists for you. uh gives (01:34:01) you more room to be yourself and you go (01:34:04) on hold when you're in the other (01:34:06) relationships, (01:34:07) you know, waiting for that relationship. (01:34:10) And you don't have to be with them all (01:34:11) the time if the relationship is good. (01:34:13) It's just their presence. Most of in in (01:34:16) in Canada, it's a it's a land of (01:34:18) indigenous peoples and because of our (01:34:21) colonization, we ran them into trouble. (01:34:23) So most of my work when I worked with (01:34:25) marginalized youth when marginalized (01:34:28) work was with indigenous peoples and uh (01:34:31) and almost to a person hundreds of (01:34:34) stories I would tell you is a single (01:34:38) person in their life who made the (01:34:40) difference was a grandparent. (01:34:41) >> A grandparent. (01:34:42) >> Yes. And the research there's this (01:34:45) research of 90,000 adolescence. is the (01:34:48) state side the US longitudinal study of (01:34:51) of adolescent health of the single (01:34:54) source of the most important factor of (01:34:57) well-being (01:34:59) of all is a strong emotional connection (01:35:04) with a caring adult. That adult might (01:35:07) even be outside of the family but they (01:35:09) would have to be attached to that adult. (01:35:12) That's at adolescence (01:35:14) never mind at two or three or four years (01:35:16) of age. So the good news is if you're a (01:35:20) grandparent and you are having (01:35:23) difficulty seeing how your grandchild is (01:35:25) being raised and there may be a bit of (01:35:27) harshness there or divisiveness and (01:35:30) maybe there's some alcoholism and so on (01:35:32) is is instead of trying to change the (01:35:36) parenting of your your son-in-law or (01:35:39) daughter-in-law or whatever it is the (01:35:41) stronger your connection with that child (01:35:44) you do your work there. Uh, also let's (01:35:47) say you're a parent and you are seeing a (01:35:50) younger sibling being bullied by an (01:35:52) older sibling and you try so hard to try (01:35:54) to control the behavior of that older (01:35:57) sibling, but when when you're not around (01:36:00) your younger one is being wounded and (01:36:03) hurt, what is the single most important (01:36:05) factor? Keep the relationship strong (01:36:08) with that younger sibling. The more you (01:36:10) matter, (01:36:11) the more you'll be able to keep them (01:36:13) safe. that it doesn't mean that they (01:36:15) won't be bullied or wounded. What it (01:36:18) means it doesn't go to the quick. (01:36:19) >> Uhhuh. (01:36:20) >> So again, relationship does all the (01:36:23) work. And so when things are very (01:36:27) difficult, when there seem to be no (01:36:29) answers, when you're in the middle of (01:36:31) the war, when the when the, you know, (01:36:33) bombs are dropping, (01:36:35) you know, for the children in the in (01:36:38) Gaza, you know, for those what is the (01:36:41) single most important thing is that (01:36:44) relationship between the child and the (01:36:47) adult. uh and uh and that that and so (01:36:53) that's why you know the title of my book (01:36:55) in English that's why is to be able to (01:36:59) to to do to know that the relationship (01:37:03) is to cultivate to preserve to do the (01:37:07) work of contact and connection because (01:37:10) that is the single most important factor (01:37:12) whether you know no matter what no (01:37:16) matter how distressful no matter how (01:37:18) many diagnosis apply, no matter how many (01:37:20) handicaps are, no matter what the (01:37:22) poverty uh educational level is, that is (01:37:26) always whether it's a male or female, no (01:37:28) matter what they're going through, (01:37:29) that's always the bottom line. (01:37:31) >> Okay. Okay. Um before I get to the (01:37:35) ending, two questions, I just have a (01:37:37) small one that you (01:37:40) um raise to the net. Is a certain level (01:37:43) of adversity useful in development? (01:37:49) Like a lot of parents now are insulating (01:37:52) their children from any challenges, any (01:37:56) form of adversity. And I remember (01:37:59) reading even Yung's work who said that (01:38:01) our mind in a way develops through (01:38:03) collisions with the outside world. They (01:38:06) need they shouldn't be traumatic, (01:38:09) too intense. But I'm curious how how's (01:38:12) the the proper way to look at adversity (01:38:14) in a child's life or challenge in a (01:38:16) child's life? (01:38:17) >> Adversity is part of life. The very fact (01:38:20) that the child has to go to sleep at (01:38:22) night means that they se they face (01:38:25) separation. (01:38:26) The problem is is when parents interfere (01:38:29) with reality (01:38:31) when they say no, you don't have to go (01:38:32) to sleep. (01:38:34) >> Mhm. (01:38:35) >> You don't have to do this because (01:38:36) they're afraid of upset. (01:38:38) So could you be too protective? Yes, you (01:38:41) can protect against reality. You can (01:38:43) always put a spin on things. Uh you can (01:38:46) say, you know, uh (01:38:49) all kinds of things to protect the child (01:38:51) from ever being upset. Well, that's (01:38:53) standing in the way of reality. that (01:38:55) child doesn't feel believed in that they (01:38:57) can indeed cope with the reality and (01:38:59) they don't get to go through the sadness (01:39:01) to find out for their brain to discover (01:39:04) that I can handle uh being made fun of (01:39:06) or I can handle uh you know uh of the (01:39:13) a criticism or a limit or whatever it (01:39:16) is. So is overprotectiveness harmful? (01:39:19) Yes. But so is thinking that well my (01:39:22) child needs to experience separation (01:39:24) because that's part of life. No, no, no, (01:39:26) no. They get enough going to sleep at (01:39:27) night. (01:39:29) They don't need that. (01:39:31) >> They don't need to push them in it. (01:39:33) >> Ah okay. (01:39:34) >> Okay. (01:39:35) >> Okay. So life brings enough challenge (01:39:38) and adversity. (01:39:39) >> Brings enough. (01:39:40) >> We don't need to consciously (01:39:42) intentionally bring more in order to (01:39:44) build them up. Absolutely. Nor do I need (01:39:47) to stand in the way of reality. If one (01:39:50) story is all they're getting tonight, (01:39:52) then it's one story. I don't need to (01:39:54) turn myself into a psychological (01:39:55) pretzel. And so that every whim has to (01:39:59) be satisfied for fear of their upset (01:40:01) because this doesn't serve them either. (01:40:03) They are capable of living with only one (01:40:05) story. But they don't know that yet. And (01:40:08) they'll only know it on the other side (01:40:10) of tears they have not yet shed. And on (01:40:12) the other side of the tears, they'll (01:40:14) know it. and they'll be back to their (01:40:15) happiness. Uh, that's fine. But there is (01:40:18) a journey there. (01:40:19) >> Second to last question. If you had a (01:40:21) magic wand, what would be the one thing (01:40:24) you'd want all parents on the planet to (01:40:26) know and practice? Hm. (01:40:33) [sighs] (01:40:34) Well, it would be to yearn to be the (01:40:38) answer to their child (01:40:41) to have that dignity, that fulfillment, (01:40:46) to have that stretching. If there's one (01:40:48) thing that would would be their best (01:40:52) recipe for their own therapy is to yearn (01:40:55) to be the answer that a child needs. (01:40:57) that will stretch them into their (01:40:59) maturity and their potential [gasps] and (01:41:01) that's where they can find their (01:41:03) confidence, the fulfillment of the (01:41:04) dance. That's where they can get the (01:41:06) play playfulness in it. I would yearn (01:41:09) for that. Of course, for the child, I (01:41:11) would like the other developmentalist (01:41:13) said, I would yearn for every child to (01:41:14) have an adult. I was absolutely crazy (01:41:16) about them (01:41:17) >> because that was the last question I (01:41:19) wanted to ask you. So, actually, it's a (01:41:22) twist on that. If you had a magic wand (01:41:24) that could rewrite one thing in the (01:41:27) childhood of all the people on earth. (01:41:28) >> Oh, (01:41:30) >> what would that edit be? (01:41:32) >> Yes. (01:41:33) Well, (01:41:35) um (01:41:40) I I would say to know we're not alone. (01:41:43) Nature yearns continuously (01:41:46) for the unfolding of potential of every (01:41:50) living thing. (01:41:52) We're not alone. It's it's just finding (01:41:55) a way to play midwife just as it was to (01:41:57) the birth process. That's all life is is (01:41:59) continually birthing potential. And it's (01:42:03) we we have become exhausted uh because (01:42:06) we think it's all up to us. It's not um (01:42:10) it uh really it's it's um uh it's (01:42:15) working with nature rather than against (01:42:17) nature. Um it's benevolent. It's for us. (01:42:22) Thank you from the bottom of my heart (01:42:25) for your brilliant mind, but also for (01:42:27) your heart. It's been one of the nicest (01:42:29) and most fulfilling interviews I've had. (01:42:31) I want to (01:42:31) >> Oh, thank you. (01:42:32) >> shake your hand. Thank you very much. (01:42:34) >> My pleasure. (01:42:34) >> And guys, if you've been with us until (01:42:36) the end, I don't even know in what (01:42:37) camera to look [laughter] anymore there. (01:42:40) Thank you, Vlad. (01:42:41) >> Uh thank you for being with us, guys. (01:42:42) And I hope that this discussion and the (01:42:46) work that you've done will make more uh (01:42:49) childhoods better (01:42:51) >> and as we have learned today make the (01:42:53) world a better place uh even if the road (01:42:56) to get there goes through tears. (01:42:59) [clears throat] (01:42:59) >> Thank you very much. (01:43:01) >> Thank you. Thank you. (01:43:07) Fore (01:43:33) Facebook (01:43:43) online academy. (01:43:59) Spotify, Apple, YouTube. (01:44:25) Substitute consult (01:44:28) therapeutica. (01:44:34) >> [music]