Strong-Willed Child? Here’s the Secret | E272 Lila Rose Show (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) You love them with all your might. But (00:00:02) you cannot raise kids if you don't have (00:00:04) discipline confidence. If you don't have (00:00:06) the ability to mean what you say and say (00:00:09) what you mean. Gentle parenting is a way (00:00:11) to be a nasty parent. (00:00:12) >> What do you mean? (00:00:13) >> Kids from big families by and large grow (00:00:15) up to be better adjusted, more giving, (00:00:17) less selfish. The matter you get, the (00:00:19) more you lose credibility because a (00:00:20) child looks at you and thinks, "Hey, (00:00:22) you're a lunatic." You know, you can (00:00:24) discipline mean, but discipline itself (00:00:26) is not mean. Discipline is a gift. I (00:00:29) always tell parents this if you don't do (00:00:31) it. (00:00:32) >> As you guys know, I grew up in a big (00:00:33) family. I'm one of eight kids and my (00:00:35) parents were always interested in how to (00:00:37) parent better. Here at the show, we're (00:00:39) really passionate about how to build (00:00:40) healthy families and what does good (00:00:42) parenting look like. And I'm grateful to (00:00:44) my parents for setting that example. I'm (00:00:46) really excited about today's guest (00:00:48) because he's been giving parenting (00:00:50) advice for over four decades and he (00:00:52) specializes in big families. Welcome (00:00:54) back to the Lero Show. Today I'm sitting (00:00:56) down with psychologist and author Dr. (00:00:58) Ray Garandi, father of 10 children, all (00:01:02) adopted, and we discuss principles and (00:01:04) philosophies of parenting, as well as (00:01:06) the beauty and struggles of large (00:01:07) families, and what he calls the blackout (00:01:09) technique in parenting. He's also (00:01:11) hilarious. We discuss how much (00:01:13) consistency is actually needed in (00:01:15) parenting. Hint, it's actually less than (00:01:16) you may think, and how to be both gentle (00:01:18) and confident as parents. This episode (00:01:21) isn't just for parents, it's for (00:01:22) aspiring parents or for people who want (00:01:24) to help other parents in your life do (00:01:25) their job better. At the LLA Rose Show, (00:01:27) our community is keenly aware of the (00:01:29) importance of strong families. No strong (00:01:31) nation is possible without strong (00:01:33) families. And if you want to join us in (00:01:34) this battle, the quickest and easiest (00:01:36) way to do that is to ensure that you've (00:01:38) already hit that little subscribe (00:01:39) button. Please double check. Also, leave (00:01:41) this video a like and a comment and join (00:01:43) us over at patreon.com/laose (00:01:46) where we have behindthe-scenes (00:01:47) conversations, add free episodes, and (00:01:49) more. Dr. Ray also answers some of the (00:01:51) questions from this community for a (00:01:53) special bonus segment over at (00:01:55) patreon.com/laose (00:01:56) show. Also, you guys might be noticing (00:01:58) it. Some of you have mentioned it in the (00:02:00) comments. This is one of our new (00:02:02) sweaters, our merch. We've got Onward (00:02:05) and Upward. We've got See Heaven First (00:02:07) and so many other beautiful designs. You (00:02:09) can go check that out at (00:02:10) shop.larroshow.com. (00:02:12) Dr. Ray Garandi, welcome to the show. (00:02:14) >> Thanks, Lyla. (00:02:15) >> I'm so happy you're here. (00:02:16) >> You are. (00:02:17) >> Yes. (00:02:17) >> Oh, that's nice. an Italian. (00:02:20) >> 100% (00:02:21) >> 100%. (00:02:22) >> All four grandparents through Ellis (00:02:23) Island. (00:02:24) >> Wow. (00:02:25) >> My name was not Garandi. It was (00:02:27) Quarante. But my 17-year-old grandfather (00:02:30) who couldn't speak English mispronounced (00:02:32) it to the That's how they did it. They (00:02:35) just wrote the immigration officer just (00:02:37) wrote it down. That was it. So, I got a (00:02:38) new name. (00:02:39) >> They lost the original. So, wait, how (00:02:40) did how was the original Grundy spelled? (00:02:42) >> I think it was Q U A R A N T E (00:02:44) >> with a Q, (00:02:45) >> I think. So, (00:02:46) >> wow. (00:02:46) >> Yeah. (00:02:47) >> Okay. Okay. So, you're first generation. (00:02:49) >> That's the second. You're second you're (00:02:52) >> had to go to mama's house every day till (00:02:55) I was 23. That's the way it was. And I (00:02:57) couldn't move more than uh maybe three (00:02:59) blocks away from my mom because that's a (00:03:01) law in Italian. You can't move far away (00:03:02) from your mom. (00:03:03) >> That is a law. Yeah. One of my brothers, (00:03:05) you know, the youngest brother, of (00:03:07) course, is the youngest son. He's like, (00:03:09) you know, 20 minutes is is the is the (00:03:11) max. He was in Boston. My there my (00:03:13) parents in Northern California and his (00:03:14) he moved back. (00:03:15) >> My parish was St. Anony's in Canton. And (00:03:18) do you know who went to that parish? A (00:03:20) woman named Rita Rizzo. (00:03:23) >> This the saint to be (00:03:25) >> Mother Angelica. (00:03:26) >> Yep. (00:03:27) >> My dad was a freshman when she was a (00:03:29) senior at McKinley High School. (00:03:32) >> So, did they meet her? (00:03:34) >> I don't know if they did. He may have (00:03:35) not known that that was going to be (00:03:37) Mother Angelica, but I knew of her when (00:03:39) I was 14 years old because there's a (00:03:42) woman in Canton that's right now her (00:03:45) cause is being offered. Her name is um (00:03:50) Roa Wise. (00:03:51) >> Yes, I've heard of her. (00:03:52) >> And I was taken there when I was a (00:03:54) freshman at that house. And my mom told (00:03:56) me about this little nun that had a (00:03:59) miracle cure at Roto Wise's house and (00:04:02) became a nun in Canton, Ohio for the (00:04:04) longest time before then she moved down (00:04:06) to uh ETN. (00:04:09) >> So when did you decide that you wanted (00:04:11) to let first introduce yourself, give us (00:04:14) your background and you have a you have (00:04:16) a fascinating personal story. What I (00:04:18) love about you is you're hilarious. So (00:04:20) we're going to tell jokes. You promised (00:04:22) me we'd do some knockk knockock jokes, (00:04:23) so we'll do that. Your work, your body (00:04:25) of work is amazing. 20 books on (00:04:27) parenting, marriage, all the things, you (00:04:29) know, relating well with other people. (00:04:31) You have a beautiful show that's helped (00:04:32) decades of people. One of the gals here (00:04:34) in the show, the office today saying her (00:04:36) mother helped raise her off of you, off (00:04:38) of your stuff. (00:04:39) >> Yeah. But if she goes bad, she's not (00:04:40) going to sue me, is she? (00:04:41) >> She's she's going pretty well so far, (00:04:43) right? I mean, they're pretty pretty (00:04:44) amazing people. She's doing great. (00:04:46) Pretty amazing people around here. And (00:04:48) but then you're also got this, you know, (00:04:50) your personal life is just really (00:04:52) special how you've raised your own (00:04:53) family. So give us the background on Dr. (00:04:55) Ray Garendi. (00:04:56) >> I'm a shrink psychologist, clinical (00:04:58) psychologist. Started out in (00:05:00) engineering. I always wanted to live in (00:05:02) a caboose, you know, but uh I got blown (00:05:05) I got blown out of engineering when I (00:05:07) was a freshman because I got an awful (00:05:09) score on my physics test. So I called (00:05:11) home. I said, "Hey mom, transferring (00:05:13) transfer into psychology." And I (00:05:15) thought, "Well, what do I do now?" So I (00:05:18) just kept going. Got a PhD in psychology (00:05:21) for 20 years. I did practice school (00:05:24) districts, headstart programs, all those (00:05:26) places. I have a private practice now (00:05:28) and then ultimately drifted towards (00:05:29) media because (00:05:32) >> I was an entertainer in uh nightclubs (00:05:34) and restaurants before before all this (00:05:37) >> singing (00:05:37) >> singing playing the organ and (00:05:40) entertaining. And that's kind of how I (00:05:42) got into all this. I used to do all the (00:05:44) secular shows. Oprah, Jenny Jones, CBS (00:05:46) This Morning. I did all those. (00:05:47) >> Singing. (00:05:48) >> No, as a shrink as a shrink. I was going (00:05:50) to say I don't remember that. No. As as (00:05:52) >> So you were singing in the nightclubs, (00:05:54) but then you would you were doing the (00:05:55) shrink work, including on Oprah. And (00:05:57) then (00:05:59) >> I was on Oprah multiple times before she (00:06:01) went to Phil. Phil was kind of her (00:06:03) therapist (00:06:04) >> and so she kind of moved him into the (00:06:06) show and he was there about every week (00:06:07) until he went out on his own. But (00:06:10) >> what a mistake. (00:06:11) >> Prior to that, I used to go there a lot. (00:06:13) >> What a mistake. (00:06:14) >> Yeah, but I got to be with you now and (00:06:16) that's better. (00:06:16) >> All right, I'll take it. I'll take it. (00:06:18) You know, and I I have a soft spot in my (00:06:20) heart for Dr. Phil, but there's no one (00:06:21) like Dr. Ray. So, we've got we've got (00:06:23) the real (00:06:24) >> You got to get out more, woman. (00:06:25) >> Well, I I feel like I'm out a lot out (00:06:27) too much in in one sense. So, so you So, (00:06:31) tell me about your family. We're going (00:06:33) to talk about your work and you're (00:06:34) you're going to give some the best (00:06:35) advice that people listening may have (00:06:36) ever heard. We're going to get to that, (00:06:38) but it's coming from your faith in your (00:06:40) family. Tell me about your family. came (00:06:42) home from Cleveland Clinic one day, told (00:06:45) my wife, they said, "If we conceive (00:06:47) children, it'll be a miracle and go on (00:06:51) the talk shows." So, we said, "What do (00:06:54) we do now? Can we adopt?" Yeah, but the (00:06:58) wait could be five, six, seven years. My (00:07:01) wife always wanted to have five or six (00:07:02) kids. (00:07:04) I guess we'll try to adopt. Well, back (00:07:06) then, Laya, if you didn't care about the (00:07:08) race, (00:07:10) you could adopt very quickly. I asked an (00:07:12) adoption worker one time, I said, "How (00:07:14) long would I have to wait if I wanted to (00:07:16) adopt a little black baby boy?" She (00:07:21) said, "What are you doing tomorrow?" (00:07:25) So, I have three white, two Hispanic, (00:07:26) two biracial, three black. Now, the (00:07:28) picture when my wife used to take them (00:07:30) through the store, cuz at one point they (00:07:31) were all under 12. (00:07:32) >> You have 10 total. (00:07:33) >> 10 total. (00:07:34) >> Wow. All adopted. (00:07:35) >> All adopted. (00:07:36) >> All different ethnicities. (00:07:37) >> All different. Well, (00:07:38) >> boys and girls, (00:07:39) >> I suspect my wife on the black kids, but (00:07:41) I can't catch her. So, given that, she'd (00:07:43) take them through the store and people (00:07:45) would look at her and they'd see these (00:07:47) kids of multiolors. And I could hear (00:07:50) them thinking, (00:07:52) I wonder if that guy knows those aren't (00:07:55) all his. And then some of them would (00:07:57) come up and say, is this some kind of (00:07:58) club or something? (00:08:00) >> Daycare. (00:08:01) >> Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, it's a (00:08:03) preschool daycare. So, yeah, the kids, (00:08:05) they're all grown now. And I got to tell (00:08:07) you, if you let me brag, let me brag. (00:08:09) >> Please brag. (00:08:10) >> The parole brag officer says some of the (00:08:12) nicest kids he has. (00:08:13) >> Oh my gosh. (00:08:14) >> So, when you hear that, you feel warm (00:08:16) inside. You know, (00:08:17) >> any grandkids? (00:08:18) >> 10. (00:08:19) >> 10 grandkids already. And they're all (00:08:21) grown and launched. All your kids. (00:08:24) >> Well, I I'm not sure I'd use the word (00:08:27) launch. I mean, they know where we live. (00:08:29) >> Okay. So my wife and I are getting into (00:08:31) a parent protection program where (00:08:34) they're going to alter our identities (00:08:35) and relocate us in Montana. (00:08:38) So some of them are around the country, (00:08:40) some of them are close. (00:08:41) >> Be careful, doctor. People listening are (00:08:42) going to be like, "What is real? What is (00:08:43) what is this right now?" But that is (00:08:46) hilarious. But so so 10 adopted (00:08:49) children, all different backgrounds. And (00:08:50) were they all babies when you adopted (00:08:52) these these beautiful kids? Okay. (00:08:53) >> We got four older and we can talk about (00:08:55) that because they had some pretty rough (00:08:57) upbringings, (00:08:58) >> I bet. very very dangerous womb. I had (00:09:00) three of the children where birth mom (00:09:02) was considering abortion (00:09:04) >> and they didn't and we let the kids know (00:09:08) real clear how much their birth mom (00:09:10) loved them to basically go against her (00:09:13) whole world. (00:09:14) >> Wow. (00:09:14) >> To give birth to this child that was at (00:09:17) risk. I I have a son who initial testing (00:09:20) in the womb said that he had corpus (00:09:23) colossum aenesis. Now, that's a serious (00:09:26) neurological birth defect. Worst case (00:09:28) scenario, that's institution for life. (00:09:30) Birth mom was 35. I got to believe (00:09:33) everybody told her, "You you can't give (00:09:34) birth to this kid." She did. And that (00:09:38) young man just mustered out of Fort Hood (00:09:40) as Sergeant G after 10 and a half years. (00:09:42) It was a shadow on the ultrasound. The (00:09:44) test was wrong. (00:09:45) >> Wow. That's amazing. So, (00:09:48) >> um, I've got to ask you, and we're going (00:09:50) to get into disciplined parenting (00:09:52) relationships, but I think this the the (00:09:56) the act of love of adopting this (00:09:58) beautiful these beautiful children, (00:09:59) >> the tax deductions. (00:10:00) >> All right. All right. But beyond the tax (00:10:02) deductions, the act of love and your and (00:10:04) your wife's love to adopt all these (00:10:06) kids, I want to talk about the risk. And (00:10:08) you knew in part, I think, what you were (00:10:10) getting into as a shrink, as you say, (00:10:12) you know, you're you you have a clinical (00:10:14) background. You've you've counseledled (00:10:15) all kinds of families, kids. So, you've (00:10:17) seen the the whole gamut of things, (00:10:18) right? Did you do you feel like you knew (00:10:20) what you were getting into when you (00:10:22) chose to adopt 10 children, some of them (00:10:24) older children who had all the trauma (00:10:25) that they came into the family with? Did (00:10:27) you go into it with you and your wife (00:10:28) saying, "Listen, these are the (00:10:29) challenges we're going to face and the (00:10:30) beautiful blessings. This is how what (00:10:32) we're going to do as a family. Was there (00:10:33) sort of like a a whole plan behind it?" (00:10:35) >> It all depends upon the context. For (00:10:39) example, one of the worst things that (00:10:41) can happen is drugs and alcohol in the (00:10:44) womb. What that does is it alters the (00:10:48) brain structure. It alters the thinking. (00:10:50) It makes the individual harder to (00:10:52) socialize, slower to form a conscience. (00:10:55) Now, I'm not saying it can't happen, but (00:10:57) I'm saying it's much riskier. And what's (00:11:00) happening now, Laya, is the the days are (00:11:02) gone where the young Catholic girl gets (00:11:04) pregnant and goes and lives with the (00:11:05) nuns until she places the baby. (00:11:08) Nowadays, a lot of adopted kids are at (00:11:10) risk. They come from foreign countries. (00:11:12) They've been taken from birth mom (00:11:14) because of neglect and abuse. They're (00:11:16) older. They've been in foster care. So, (00:11:18) as a result, and I always tell this to (00:11:20) folks who come to me who want to adopt. (00:11:24) Yes, it's a beautiful thing. Our Lord (00:11:26) says, "Take care of the little ones." (00:11:28) Real clear. But (00:11:32) know that this could be a bouncy (00:11:35) upbringing. As long as you know that, (00:11:37) you're prepared. I knew that we were (00:11:40) going to have some turbulence. I knew (00:11:42) that. (00:11:43) I didn't realize how much the brain can (00:11:46) be altered. The research says it can by (00:11:49) the drugs and the alcohol in the womb. (00:11:51) But most adoptive parents think love, (00:11:54) stability, religious upbringing, and (00:11:57) we'll shape this kid into a beautiful (00:11:58) human being. And that does happen often. (00:12:01) Mhm. (00:12:01) >> However, I deal with a lot of adopted (00:12:04) parents who are struggling because this (00:12:05) kid's tough to raise. Doesn't mean he's (00:12:08) not valuable in God's eyes. It just (00:12:10) means he's tougher to raise. And as a (00:12:11) parent, you got to be even better at (00:12:13) this. You got to be more supervisory, (00:12:16) better disciplined, more stable, (00:12:19) watching over the input from the culture (00:12:21) that is misshaping their souls. Those (00:12:24) kinds of things. That's part of it. I (00:12:26) think a lot of parents are afraid of (00:12:29) adopting or fostering, certainly with (00:12:31) older children where there's maybe (00:12:33) trauma and a background that is more (00:12:35) complex. So, the needs are greater when (00:12:37) they have other young children in the (00:12:39) home. (00:12:40) >> One of the rules we had, we didn't adopt (00:12:43) anybody older (00:12:45) >> than our younger kids. Now, at one (00:12:47) point, we adopted two four-year-olds and (00:12:49) we had a three and a one-year-old in the (00:12:51) house. At that point, the (00:12:53) four-year-olds, we knew somewhat the (00:12:56) history, so we felt really secure about (00:12:58) their worldliness. (00:13:00) But if you adopt an 8-year-old worldly (00:13:03) child who's seen all kinds of stuff, and (00:13:05) then you bring him into your home with a (00:13:06) 2-year-old in your home, yeah, you're (00:13:09) you're taking some risks and you got to (00:13:11) know that. (00:13:12) >> But by and large, (00:13:16) the children adapt well. One of the (00:13:19) things I hear from parents who say, "We (00:13:21) have three bio kids and now we want to (00:13:23) adopt." (00:13:24) >> Okay, how will the kids accept this? (00:13:27) Well, most of them they do. Initially, (00:13:29) they may say, "Why did you do this to (00:13:30) our family? We didn't want somebody else (00:13:32) in here. We had a nice family. Why are (00:13:34) you doing this, mom?" But over time, the (00:13:37) kids adapt well. However, the key thing (00:13:40) you got to watch is the worldliness of (00:13:43) the child that you adopt, especially if (00:13:46) you have younger ones. you got younger (00:13:47) ones. So for you to go out and adopt a (00:13:49) 10-year-old who's seen 50 times what all (00:13:53) three of your kids have seen from a (00:13:54) worldly perspective, yeah, you got to be (00:13:57) real reluctant. (00:13:58) >> And what are some examples of that that (00:14:00) you think people should be aware of, but (00:14:02) when you when you say the word rolliness (00:14:04) and how that might negatively impact (00:14:06) your younger children or any younger (00:14:08) children in the home? (00:14:09) >> Sexualized. (00:14:10) >> The kids have seen much. Perhaps they (00:14:12) themselves have been sexually abused. I (00:14:14) think one of my sons was sexually abused (00:14:16) and when we adopted him and we didn't (00:14:18) know that. I sensed it, but (00:14:21) >> I didn't know it. Now, as I look back on (00:14:22) it, all the puzzle pieces fit together. (00:14:25) So, you got to watch the sexualization. (00:14:27) You got to watch how much they've been (00:14:28) exposed to sewage and junk. They've (00:14:32) spent hours in front of a TV or video (00:14:36) games or on the internet, what they've (00:14:39) seen. So that this little six-year-old (00:14:42) has the worldly mind of a 16-year-old. (00:14:46) And that's where the risk comes in. (00:14:48) >> What has been the best thing about ad (00:14:51) adopting 10 children for you and your (00:14:53) wife? (00:14:54) >> Chaos. (00:14:55) >> It is. It was a good chaos though. I (00:14:58) look back on it. My wife homeschooled. (00:15:00) >> Wow. (00:15:00) >> Well, well, that's really amazing (00:15:01) because her her education level only (00:15:03) goes to the fourth grade. Oh my god. (00:15:04) >> So I told her I said, "Stay one week (00:15:06) ahead in the answer book. That's all you (00:15:08) got to do." It was (00:15:10) >> you graduated the fifth grade, right? (00:15:11) >> I was fifth. Yeah. I was at the top of (00:15:12) my class. I was 16. I was up here in (00:15:16) height and the other kids were here. (00:15:17) >> You just got a little print out of your (00:15:18) degree and that's on the wall. (00:15:19) >> You can get it. Yes. Open cover before (00:15:22) striking school of graduation. So the (00:15:25) thing was I look back on it now and for (00:15:29) well I don't know maybe seven years all (00:15:32) of them were in the house. So because of (00:15:35) that it was just chaos. But yet, if (00:15:38) here's here's the key, Laya. Here's (00:15:40) here's one of the biggest things. My (00:15:42) wife had discipline control. A woman (00:15:44) from our church one time asked her, (00:15:46) "What would you do if you gave one of (00:15:50) your kids discipline? You know, go to (00:15:52) the corner, go to your room, put your (00:15:53) head down at the dining room table, (00:15:54) write an essay, whatever. What would you (00:15:56) do if they refused?" And my wife said, (00:16:00) "I don't know." And the woman said, (00:16:02) "What do you mean you don't know?" And (00:16:05) my wife said, "They never have." And she (00:16:07) said, "How could that be?" And here's (00:16:09) why. Early on, she showed the kids, "You (00:16:14) can't refuse discipline because if you (00:16:16) do, there's going to be all kinds of (00:16:18) other consequences are going to happen (00:16:20) to you." And we'll talk about how to get (00:16:22) parents one one-time compliance. (00:16:25) And because of that, the kids, even with (00:16:28) all of their background, even their (00:16:30) tough temperaments, knew that their (00:16:32) mother meant business. And if she says (00:16:34) go to the corner, you better go to the (00:16:35) corner because if not, all kinds of (00:16:37) things are gonna happen. (00:16:38) >> Is she Italian? (00:16:40) >> She She's I don't know what she is. And (00:16:42) I'm surprised my grandmother let me (00:16:44) marry her. (00:16:44) >> She's I actually I'm surprised, too. (00:16:47) >> Oh, easy, easy. (00:16:48) >> But she's a She's an amazing lady. She's (00:16:51) a tough lady. As we enter into one of (00:16:54) the most beautiful and holy times of the (00:16:56) year, Advent, Hallow's pray 25 (00:16:59) challenge, Be Still, is an invitation to (00:17:01) set aside the endless to-do lists and to (00:17:03) build a daily habit of quiet prayer. (00:17:06) You'll be guided through the story of (00:17:07) the nativity. And for families, Hallow (00:17:09) is offering a kids advent prayer (00:17:11) challenge as well. Of course, Hallow (00:17:13) also has thousands of other prayers, (00:17:15) meditations, and beautiful Christmas (00:17:17) music. So, if your heart is longing for (00:17:19) a more prayerful, Christc centered (00:17:21) advent, I encourage you to join millions (00:17:23) around the world in Hallow's pray (00:17:26) challenge, be still. You can download (00:17:28) the Hallow app today and get 3 months (00:17:30) free at hello.com/la. 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No harsh ingredients, no (00:18:13) toxins, just products that reflect (00:18:15) dignity and the truth of who we are as (00:18:17) women. You can try Everyife's new (00:18:18) feminine care brand, Every Life Women, (00:18:20) with my code Laya for 10% off your (00:18:23) order. Visit everyife.com/la (00:18:25) to shop now and use the code Laya at (00:18:27) checkout. (00:18:30) >> Okay, we've got to hear the secrets. And (00:18:32) I know these are your secrets. You've (00:18:33) written 20 books and some of them are (00:18:34) about (00:18:34) >> You love them with all your might. But, (00:18:37) and this is so key, (00:18:39) you cannot raise 10 kids if you don't (00:18:42) have discipline, confidence. If you (00:18:45) don't have the ability to mean what you (00:18:47) say and say what you mean. If you don't (00:18:49) have that, Laya, I can't tell you how (00:18:52) many parents come up to me and say, "I (00:18:54) wanted to have four or five children, (00:18:57) but I stopped at two cuz I can't handle (00:19:00) the two I have." And that's tragic. That (00:19:03) is sad, but it's so common nowadays. (00:19:06) >> It is so common. I I hear it everywhere. (00:19:08) I hear it when I'm out with my kids, and (00:19:10) I only have three. We hope to have more, (00:19:12) but when we're out and people say, "Oh, (00:19:14) you've got your hands full. Oh, it's so (00:19:16) great." And you're done, right? You're (00:19:18) you're done. You're done. You're done. (00:19:20) I'm like, where? Where? How do we get (00:19:22) here? (00:19:22) >> We live in a culture that says you can (00:19:25) have physical relations with anybody, (00:19:27) anytime, any way, anyhow you want. The (00:19:31) only people we will attack is you, a mom (00:19:35) who has more than 1.86 children, then we (00:19:38) will comment on your motherhood. You (00:19:42) know what you say? If they say to you, (00:19:45) "Are these all your children, Laya?" You (00:19:48) look at them and you say, "Of course (00:19:50) not. The oldest is at home with the (00:19:52) triplets." (00:19:54) >> Too funny. Okay. What's the secret (00:19:56) though? walk us through because I've got (00:19:59) three. (00:20:00) >> I think about some of my closest friends (00:20:02) who have many more than that (00:20:04) >> and discipline and it's not just about (00:20:07) like don't do bad stuff, right? It's (00:20:08) about forming a child to become who God (00:20:11) created them to be. And this is the (00:20:13) dream of every parent. And yes, I do (00:20:15) think some people don't have more (00:20:17) children than one or two because they're (00:20:18) afraid of their ability or lack of (00:20:21) ability to do it well. And there's other (00:20:23) selfish, more selfish reasons than that, (00:20:24) too. But what give us the foundations, (00:20:28) the Dr. Ray foundations for how to raise (00:20:31) a strong set of children. And I really (00:20:34) want to hear it from this lens of a big (00:20:36) family because I know we've got some (00:20:37) listeners to the show who have really (00:20:39) big families. You know, I know the (00:20:41) principles can be the same for some (00:20:42) small families, but how did you and your (00:20:44) wife do it and what do you recommend to (00:20:46) get the to discipline 10 children? (00:20:50) >> The people who listen to you, Laya, by (00:20:53) and large are faithfilled people. (00:20:56) They want to raise kids who are going to (00:20:58) go to heaven. As a consequence, they are (00:21:02) out of sync with the culture. The (00:21:06) culture around them is much more (00:21:07) permissive, much more amoral, much more (00:21:11) quick to allow kids to grow up too fast. (00:21:16) So the kids of the people who watch and (00:21:19) listen to you are likely as they get (00:21:22) older to say, "Hey, mom, (00:21:26) how can all those people be wrong and (00:21:28) you be right?" So the first thing I say (00:21:30) to parents is you got to have the (00:21:32) confidence to know that what you're (00:21:34) doing in your best judgment, not (00:21:37) according to some expert who doesn't (00:21:38) believe in God, in your best judgment, (00:21:42) this is what is good for your family. (00:21:45) And if you say, "Well, we don't have (00:21:46) television during the week." Well, Laya, (00:21:50) you're about in 1%. If you say, "My (00:21:54) daughter is 15 and does not yet have a (00:21:56) smartphone." Now, you're way less than (00:21:59) 1%. If you don't have the confidence to (00:22:02) make those kinds of judgments, you're (00:22:04) going to be buffeted by the winds of the (00:22:06) culture. So, that's the first thing. (00:22:07) Second thing, and I I send this straight (00:22:10) to dads, (00:22:12) be affectionate. (00:22:14) Be very affectionate. Those kids know (00:22:18) that your standards are different from (00:22:20) the cultures and you can't expect them (00:22:21) to understand why all the time. They're (00:22:23) kids. They don't understand this. I (00:22:25) remember the first time I told my mom, (00:22:27) "I don't like you." She looked at me. (00:22:30) She said, "Raymond, you're a little (00:22:31) behind. Stop liking you last year." That (00:22:35) was before you could psychologically (00:22:36) smack parents around. So, you can't be (00:22:38) afraid of being misunderstood by your (00:22:41) kids. You cannot. (00:22:44) Third, when my son was 17, he played (00:22:48) basketball for school. Before the games, (00:22:52) I would go down on the floor and I'd (00:22:55) grab him and I'd hug him and I'd kiss (00:22:57) him. (00:22:59) >> 17 years old. (00:23:00) >> 17 years old. Now I look (00:23:01) >> kiss him kiss him at his practice in (00:23:03) front at his game in front of his (00:23:04) friends in front of everybody. (00:23:06) >> And I'd look up in the stands and you (00:23:08) could see the collective gasp of parents (00:23:10) of teenagers. They're going, "This guy's (00:23:13) breaking every teen rule in the world." (00:23:16) I hugged him and I kissed him and I had (00:23:19) I had to affirm him. I had to say (00:23:20) something very positive. So I said, (00:23:22) "Pey, (00:23:24) try not to stink the joint out." And (00:23:26) he'd laugh. Later on, I asked him, "Hey, (00:23:29) Pete, (00:23:31) that bother you when I do that?" He (00:23:33) said, "Would it make any difference, (00:23:35) Dad?" I said, "No, it wouldn't." Because (00:23:37) no son of mine, I don't care how old you (00:23:38) get, is ever going to tell me, "I can't (00:23:40) be affectionate with you anytime, (00:23:42) anywhere, anyhow." You know what he told (00:23:44) me later, Laya? He said a couple of his (00:23:47) teammates came up to him and said, "I (00:23:50) wish my dad would do that." Oh, that's (00:23:52) so sweet. (00:23:53) >> So, you see that affection is is I the (00:23:55) older I get and the more I see it, (00:23:57) especially those families raising their (00:23:59) kids counter (00:24:00) >> to the flow of the culture. You got to (00:24:03) be affectionate because otherwise the (00:24:04) kids, they don't understand. Why are you (00:24:06) doing this? You're so weird. Okay, (00:24:09) that's that's huge. Another big one, you (00:24:12) got to have discipline control because (00:24:13) if you don't, you get ugly. I'm fond of (00:24:16) saying gentle parenting is a way to be a (00:24:20) nasty parent. (00:24:21) What do you mean? (00:24:22) >> Because you're going to get frustrated. (00:24:24) Gentle parenting doesn't (00:24:25) >> resentment builds. (00:24:27) >> Gentle parenting doesn't work because it (00:24:29) assumes something that's flawed. (00:24:31) >> How do you define really quick because (00:24:32) this is a this is a hot debate. (00:24:34) >> Yes, it is. Yes, it is. (00:24:35) >> How do you define gentle parenting? (00:24:36) >> Gentle parenting is reasoning, (00:24:40) >> understanding, (00:24:42) being very slow to discipline, but in (00:24:45) fact giving choices. Now, all that's (00:24:47) good. All that is good. The problem is (00:24:51) it implies that if you do it that way (00:24:54) then your kid is going to cooperate and (00:24:56) when he doesn't you get frustrated and (00:24:59) when you get frustrated (00:25:01) you get ugly. You go to confession bless (00:25:05) me father. Um (00:25:07) >> I'm impatient speak on four occasions. (00:25:10) >> I was I was (00:25:10) >> I've made that confession before. (00:25:12) >> I was pretty nice before children. Now (00:25:14) I'm not pretty, Dr. Ray. (00:25:16) >> And then you say, "Father, would I be (00:25:19) wrong thinking about shooting my kid (00:25:21) with a bazooka?" (00:25:22) >> I haven't done that one, but that Yeah, (00:25:24) >> you get frustrated. (00:25:25) >> And for you, L, you got three little (00:25:27) ones, right? (00:25:27) >> Yeah. (00:25:29) >> You You need the ability. Now, I think (00:25:32) the youngest is how old? (00:25:33) >> One. (00:25:34) >> Okay. So, this really not (00:25:35) >> 18 months. She's She's She acts like (00:25:37) she's two. (00:25:38) >> Yeah. You're inching your way toward (00:25:39) some kind of discipline, which parents (00:25:42) say, "What is discipline?" I said, (00:25:43) "Well, discipline, very simply put, is (00:25:44) this an expectation (00:25:47) backed by a consequence." In other (00:25:50) words, you're not allowed to mistreat (00:25:52) your brother. You can't mistreat your (00:25:53) brother. Now, sometimes a parent will (00:25:56) say, "But wait, I want to teach him to (00:25:58) treat his brother right." I go, "True, (00:26:00) but you have to first stop (00:26:02) mistreatment." (00:26:03) Because we as Christians know that the (00:26:05) bent is toward mistreatment. We have a (00:26:08) fallen human nature. We're going to do (00:26:10) what's in our interest and our interest (00:26:12) collides with his interest. So you can't (00:26:15) mistreat your brother. (00:26:16) >> It is true. The original just quick side (00:26:18) ball I don't bar on this and I'm curious (00:26:20) your thoughts because I see with this (00:26:22) kind of the fallen nature (00:26:24) >> you know at the very young age they're (00:26:27) like angels but then they can be like (00:26:29) demons but not because they're intending (00:26:31) the sin. It's not like, oh, I'm in (00:26:33) because before the age of reason, (00:26:34) there's no moral culpability, but it's (00:26:36) just like, you know, there I I want that (00:26:38) toy. I want this. I want that. And you (00:26:41) know, it's a human nature thing. And (00:26:43) it's again not an act of sin for a child (00:26:45) like that young because they don't have (00:26:46) reason, right? They can't will consent (00:26:49) to the sin. Do (00:26:50) >> you know what I believe is the most (00:26:53) overused (00:26:55) and sad adjective to describe children? (00:27:00) strong willed. I hate that. The (00:27:04) implication is that because he wants to (00:27:06) do what he wants to do because he's (00:27:09) self-centered. All of which our (00:27:12) Christian teaching would say is innate (00:27:14) to the human before we are socialized (00:27:16) and moralized. We look at this and say, (00:27:19) "Why is he so strong willed?" And I want (00:27:22) to say, "Mom, he's not going to (00:27:23) cooperate with you." If you've got one (00:27:25) that's more cooperative, count your (00:27:27) blessings. Say, "Thank you, dear Lord. (00:27:29) But if you get one like that first, (00:27:30) Laya, (00:27:32) >> it'll ruin the rest of your parenting (00:27:33) because you'll think you're God's gift (00:27:35) to parent. And then Kujo comes along. (00:27:38) Conan over here. And all of a sudden, (00:27:40) you've got a normal child. But you then (00:27:43) describe that child as strong willed. So (00:27:47) strong willed. Mind of her own. Six gone (00:27:50) on 16. See, we use these kind of (00:27:52) adjectives when in fact I want to say (00:27:54) you just got a kid. (00:27:56) >> And we've forgotten what kids are. And (00:27:58) part of the reason for that is that the (00:28:00) experts have convinced parents that your (00:28:04) kids, if you if you parent properly, are (00:28:07) going to say, "Oh, mother, I've been so (00:28:11) blind." (00:28:12) Of course, let's hold hands, sing (00:28:15) kumbaya around the campfire. (00:28:16) >> Okay. But but and I and I took you on a (00:28:18) sidebar, so let thank you for the (00:28:20) patience with me on that. But you were (00:28:22) laying the foundations for what (00:28:23) discipline is, (00:28:24) >> and you just said, "Oh, well, they're (00:28:26) not going to do the kumbaya." Sounds (00:28:27) like your wife had a locked in. (00:28:29) >> They weren't kumbaying maybe, but they (00:28:31) were obeying. Yes. And it sounds like (00:28:33) there was harmony. (00:28:34) >> I had a client come to my office and her (00:28:38) husband said one of the more humble (00:28:40) things I've gotten from clients. He (00:28:43) said, "I disagreed with my wife the (00:28:45) whole time we were raising our oldest (00:28:47) son. I thought she was too strict. I (00:28:49) thought her standards were too high. I (00:28:51) was much much much more permissive. I (00:28:54) thought he would outgrow all of this." (00:28:56) He's 21 now and his life's a mess. So, (00:28:59) we have a 14-year-old and I don't want (00:29:01) to make the same mistakes. So, we're (00:29:03) here, Dr. Ray, give us some guidance and (00:29:06) I'm going to agree with what you say and (00:29:08) my wife. So, I asked them, if you told (00:29:12) this 14-year-old, "That's disrespectful. (00:29:15) You need to please sit down and write a (00:29:18) nice essay on why you're grateful to (00:29:20) live here and why you should not be (00:29:22) disrespectful." Oh, and that's a minimum (00:29:24) 300 words handwritten. (00:29:27) Would he do it? And the mother said, (00:29:29) "Oh, of course not." Oh, no. Be an (00:29:31) automatic fight. Be an automatic brawl, (00:29:33) an argument. Awful. I said, "Well, (00:29:36) here's what I think you need to do." At (00:29:38) that point, until you get the essay, all (00:29:41) perks and privileges cease. Every single (00:29:45) thing. That means uh there is no (00:29:49) outside. There's no computer. There's no (00:29:52) friends. If you go to Pizza Hut, he (00:29:55) doesn't eat. He eats at home because (00:29:57) he's eating House of Privilege. A (00:29:59) favorite sweatshirt's gone. Uh anything (00:30:02) technical is gone. Uh if you have to (00:30:06) drive him to school, well, that's a (00:30:09) privilege. So, we we'll pay him some (00:30:11) mileage. In other words, you don't (00:30:13) understand how many things as a parent (00:30:15) are in your leverage. And she said, (00:30:18) "You mean that's kind of like a (00:30:21) blackout?" And I said, "What a great (00:30:23) word." And I talk about that in my books (00:30:25) and I also talk about that from our own (00:30:28) perspective as parents. That's the (00:30:30) reason why the kids didn't refuse gone (00:30:33) to the corner. If they did, my wife (00:30:35) said, "Okay, blackout. Mom. Mom. I'm (00:30:40) gonna go outside. (00:30:42) No, I didn't get my corner yet. Mom, (00:30:44) where my Oh, it's on the refrigerator. I (00:30:47) didn't get my corner yet. I don't get no (00:30:49) cake. Oh, no. You don't get any dessert (00:30:51) at all. You didn't go to the corner yet. (00:30:53) In other words, until you do what we (00:30:55) asked you to do, you're going to realize (00:30:57) all these things are gone. Not mean, not (00:31:00) nasty, not jack booted, kick the door (00:31:02) down. No, just a very calm, I told you (00:31:05) need to go to the corner or this is (00:31:06) going to happen. And it didn't take too (00:31:08) many of those before finally she just (00:31:11) said, "Put your head down the dining (00:31:13) room table, please. I'll set the timer." (00:31:15) >> And they did because the few times they (00:31:17) said, "No, they saw what happened." (00:31:19) >> And they didn't like that. (00:31:21) >> So she So she did that enough early on, (00:31:24) enough, consistently enough. (00:31:26) >> Yes. (00:31:26) >> And also, it sounds like calmly enough. (00:31:28) >> Oh, yeah. She wasn't yelling at anybody. (00:31:30) She wasn't screaming. She wasn't (00:31:31) threatening them. YOU LITTLE BRAT, GET (00:31:33) OVER THERE. NO, nothing like that. I (00:31:36) always tell parents, the matter you get, (00:31:38) the more you lose credibility because (00:31:40) the child looks at you and thinks, "Hey, (00:31:42) you're a lunatic." You know, I'm living (00:31:44) with a lunatic. Okay, I'll go to the (00:31:46) corner. Look what I did to you. I ruined (00:31:48) the next two hours for you. I can stand (00:31:49) in a corner for four minutes. That's a (00:31:51) nice tradeoff. That's what happens. (00:31:54) Sure. Now, if you have I'm not going to (00:31:56) ask you personally. (00:31:57) >> You can go I could use a little (00:31:59) evaluation. (00:31:59) >> Two older ones. Your two older ones. (00:32:01) >> Oh, they they're thick as thieves and (00:32:03) they also can fight like cats and dogs. (00:32:05) So you have you have a house rule. (00:32:07) >> Boys, (00:32:09) Rocky, Bruno, (00:32:12) >> you're great names, (00:32:13) >> right? Good names. (00:32:14) >> Conan, Kujo, (00:32:16) you're not allowed to mistreat each (00:32:18) other. There is no pushing. There's no (00:32:20) shoving. There's no name calling. (00:32:21) There's no jumping off the ropes. (00:32:23) There's no soap in the eyes. Nothing. If (00:32:26) you do, guys, it's automatic. I'm not (00:32:28) going to try to figure out who started (00:32:29) it cuz I wasn't in there. (00:32:32) You both go to the corner. Even when the (00:32:34) four-year-old, he just turned four, has (00:32:36) it in for the 5-year-old. (00:32:38) >> Even when now, if you know, Llaya, (00:32:40) >> no, they they they reciprocate. So, I'm (00:32:42) not saying it's all the three, you know, (00:32:43) the younger kids fault, but (00:32:45) >> and you know, I'll digress for a second. (00:32:46) Experts give really dumb advice on this. (00:32:49) They say, (00:32:51) >> let them solve their own conflicts. Let (00:32:54) them work it out on their own. Let them (00:32:56) have conflict resolution skills. Now, (00:32:58) the problem is your older kid is going (00:33:00) to dominate cuz he's bigger, smarter, (00:33:03) faster, stronger. Even though the (00:33:04) four-year-old provokes, your older son (00:33:07) is like, "No, no, I'm not putting up (00:33:08) with this." (00:33:09) >> Or he loses his mind because he tries (00:33:11) conflict revolution and the (00:33:12) three-year-old does not. (00:33:13) >> Exactly. Exactly what I mean. Many of (00:33:16) these theories don't work. So, you have (00:33:18) a rule. Can't do this. So, you tell both (00:33:21) boys, you sit on the couch over there, (00:33:23) you sit over there. (00:33:26) And they don't (00:33:28) they get off the couch or they do this. (00:33:32) Am I still on the couch? Am I on the (00:33:34) couch now, Mom? (00:33:35) >> Or they sit there and it just go (00:33:37) >> Yes. Or they scream. That's right. They (00:33:39) they will do what I call escalation. (00:33:41) It's very common. That's why parents (00:33:43) will say, "I don't I don't really like (00:33:45) the discipline because it gets ugly." (00:33:47) And so what happens is it it builds in (00:33:49) inconsistency. (00:33:52) I'll try to get you to take your (00:33:53) discipline, but if you don't, (00:33:56) I'm going to try to work my way through (00:33:57) this or negotiate or do something or (00:34:00) ignore you or whatever because I don't (00:34:02) want to have 6 minutes, 8 minutes, 20 (00:34:04) minutes of a brawl here. (00:34:08) Okay, boys, (00:34:11) you don't have to sit on the couch. (00:34:14) Everything's gone. And they'll (00:34:16) >> No Legos. No. Oh, no. Those are gone. Oh (00:34:18) my gosh, those are gone. Favorite shirt (00:34:20) is gone. Favorite cup is gone. Favorite (00:34:22) hat is gone. Outside is gone. Toys are (00:34:24) gone. (00:34:24) >> Pick that consistently though. Do you (00:34:26) have like a list premeditated of the 10 (00:34:28) things that go when the discipline is (00:34:30) not taken? (00:34:31) >> It's really easy. Anything that remotely (00:34:33) is a perk or a privilege? Anything. That (00:34:36) means if you're getting juice, his (00:34:40) favorite juice, his favorite orange (00:34:41) juice for dinner and you put milk or (00:34:44) water in front of him and he said, "What (00:34:47) my juice?" (00:34:49) You haven't sat on the couch yet. (00:34:52) It's kind of like Columbomo. You're (00:34:53) going, "Well, well, wait a minute. Don't (00:34:57) you understand? You didn't sit on the (00:34:59) couch yet." (00:35:00) >> A good night of sleep makes all the (00:35:02) difference in the world. And Cozy Earth (00:35:04) wants to make sure that that's not only (00:35:06) possible, but probable for you. Cozy (00:35:08) Earth sheets are what my husband and I (00:35:10) have on our bed, and they are our (00:35:12) favorite sheets, hands down. Crafted (00:35:14) from viscous from bamboo for an (00:35:16) incredibly soft feel that keeps you cozy (00:35:18) without overheating, the bubble cuddle (00:35:20) blanket is the perfect gift for cozy (00:35:23) winter moments. 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(00:36:49) >> Just to play this out, right, (00:36:51) practically speaking, (00:36:52) >> yes. hypothetically of a mother of three (00:36:55) who has two boys that are older. (00:36:57) >> Could be for a hypothetical mother of (00:36:58) three or a mother of seven. I'm thinking (00:37:01) about my sister-in-law right now or (00:37:03) could be any number of people, right? (00:37:04) But let's say you do this. So, you're (00:37:05) like they're not they're not following (00:37:06) the discipline. They're not enforcing. (00:37:08) They're not listening. You know, they're (00:37:10) showing some weakness, but it's going to (00:37:11) be the brawl. You don't have the 20 (00:37:12) minutes. You have other kids. You got a (00:37:14) baby that's crying in the other room (00:37:15) that you need to take care of. Okay. So, (00:37:17) you're going to do this blackout thing (00:37:18) because this is the new standard here. (00:37:20) This how we handle things around here. (00:37:22) How do you enforce the blackout? Because (00:37:24) for example, let's say they're like, (00:37:25) "Okay, they wander off like, "Oh, we got (00:37:26) out of that one." And then you're like, (00:37:27) "Well, no juice, no dessert, you know, (00:37:29) no going to the park right now. You're (00:37:31) just You sit here, you sit here." (00:37:33) >> Well, they get their books. They're like (00:37:35) reading books on the couch. Do you take (00:37:37) the book away? (00:37:38) >> If you want your mom, you make the (00:37:40) rules. There's the difference. (00:37:42) >> You You don't go to the You don't go to (00:37:43) the expert manual, flip it in. (00:37:45) >> But at some point, it's something that (00:37:46) hurts. Like the Lego set is a big one. (00:37:47) So, yeah. No Legos until you mind mom (00:37:50) and do you sit in the sit on the couch (00:37:52) and do your time out. (00:37:53) >> Something that hurts. Parents always say (00:37:54) that. I got to find something that makes (00:37:57) a difference to him. He doesn't seem to (00:37:58) care about anything. I try it. Nothing (00:38:00) works. No, no, no, no, no. It works the (00:38:03) instant you do it. You taught a lesson. (00:38:05) If A, then B. Now, will that change the (00:38:08) behavior? Well, that comes in time. So, (00:38:10) he may have to find out if I try to (00:38:12) sabotage blackout. In other words, he's (00:38:14) going to go get his stuffed animal. and (00:38:15) he's going to go like this and he's just (00:38:16) going to hold it and stare at you like I (00:38:18) got my stuffed animal. What are you (00:38:19) going to do? You can just look at him (00:38:21) and say, "Well, I'm not going to try to (00:38:24) yank it off you, but I will tell you (00:38:26) this. Uh, it's going to be gone for a (00:38:28) long time now and then as soon as he (00:38:31) goes to sleep or he forgets about his (00:38:33) stuffed animal and you put it up on the (00:38:34) refrigerator and hide the ladder so he (00:38:36) can't get up there and get it." (00:38:37) >> How long do you do the escal? Because (00:38:39) the other thing with the younger kids, (00:38:40) they forget things after hours, right? (00:38:43) >> But you're reminding them. Okay. (00:38:45) >> If he says, "I'm going outside." Oh, you (00:38:48) No, you you didn't put you put your head (00:38:50) down yet. (00:38:50) >> So, basically, the removal of the (00:38:52) privilege is until they fulfill the (00:38:54) discipline for the original (00:38:55) >> Yes. (00:38:56) >> the original misbehavior. (00:38:57) >> Okay. Now, let's add something to it. (00:38:59) You said they'll go sit on the couch and (00:39:00) scream. (00:39:02) >> If you go over and say, you know, the (00:39:05) longer you scream, the longer you're (00:39:06) going to sit, son. And let's say that he (00:39:08) screams and finally has had enough and (00:39:10) he gets off. So, what he did was scream (00:39:13) for 12 minutes and then get off before (00:39:15) you told him he could. Okay? Now, I'm (00:39:18) not concerned about that. I'm not (00:39:20) looking at that kid and going, "What an (00:39:21) obnoxious little brat." No, no, no, no. (00:39:23) Kids are kids. They do this kind of (00:39:25) stuff. What I'm concerned about is what (00:39:27) the parent does. (00:39:30) In other words, h well, look what he (00:39:33) did. And you could look at him and say, (00:39:36) you know, (00:39:38) before you're off blackout, you got to (00:39:40) sit twice as long (00:39:42) >> and not scream. (00:39:43) >> And not scream. (00:39:44) >> Yeah. Or at least do 12 minutes again, (00:39:46) but no screen this time. (00:39:48) >> Quiet time. (00:39:50) >> Yeah. (00:39:50) >> Now, (00:39:51) >> you got you got to hold the line, (00:39:52) though. (00:39:52) >> Well, see, here's (00:39:53) >> like you can't ever give because here's (00:39:54) the question. I can imagine myself, you (00:39:56) know, trying to employ this approach and (00:39:57) we've done some similar things and then (00:39:59) getting distracted or busy with my other (00:40:02) kids or other responsibilities and then (00:40:04) not remembering, oh, we got to stick to (00:40:06) this thing from a transgression that (00:40:08) was, you know, at this point (00:40:09) >> 1964, (00:40:10) >> you know, you know, hours ago, which is (00:40:12) 1964 to the child. (00:40:15) >> You don't have to be 100% consistent. (00:40:18) >> Wow. The child expert. Okay. And now (00:40:22) we're getting to the encouraging advice. (00:40:23) Yes, absolutely. The average parent is (00:40:26) anywhere between 10 and 20% consistent (00:40:28) and that's usually good enough. For (00:40:30) example, you tell your son to pick up (00:40:33) his Legos and you check and he hasn't (00:40:35) picked them up. Uh, Leo, Legos, please. (00:40:40) Okay. So, he putts around. He throws a (00:40:42) few in there and then he wanders off. (00:40:44) Leo, how many times I'm going to tell (00:40:46) you now? You've already told him three (00:40:48) times. So, you're down to 25% (00:40:50) consistency already. (00:40:51) >> Yeah. Yeah. And at this point there's (00:40:52) escalation because there's like a raised (00:40:55) voice. (00:40:55) >> Yes. You don't say (00:40:56) >> so the voice which is not a good thing. (00:40:58) >> You don't say Leo if I tell you 12 more (00:41:01) times I'm afraid I'm going to raise my (00:41:04) voice. I'm feeling anger pangs. Leo. No. (00:41:07) You want to kill him. Okay. And you feel (00:41:09) so terrible. I'm supposed to be a loving (00:41:10) mom. I feel so awful. That's what'll (00:41:13) happen if you allow that to go on. These (00:41:15) are ideals, Laya. This isn't this isn't (00:41:18) something that any parent can reach. So, (00:41:20) so in that case, you would just say, (00:41:21) "Listen, you didn't pick up your Legos. (00:41:23) I am picking them up and they're going (00:41:25) and and they're gone. Legos are gone. (00:41:26) Just byebye." Okay? (00:41:27) >> Very, very quietly, very calmly, just (00:41:29) that's it. Let me let me share with you (00:41:31) something that happened in our home (00:41:32) once, and I'll this will give you some (00:41:33) idea of my wife's strength of will. Now, (00:41:36) obviously, children vary in strength of (00:41:38) will. I wouldn't consider any of my (00:41:42) children strong willed. Now, that I know (00:41:44) that that's the look I get because (00:41:45) you're thinking, "Oh, come on. Wait a (00:41:47) minute. 10 of them under certain (00:41:49) circumstances. And here's why. (00:41:52) The strongest willed of my 10 kids is (00:41:56) not stronger willed than his mother. (00:41:58) I'll show you. (00:41:59) >> That's a That's a good one. That's the (00:42:01) goal, huh? (00:42:02) >> One time they were fighting over cereal. (00:42:04) They're battling over the box. And you (00:42:07) know how it is. They bring out the (00:42:08) caliper and the metric scale and they (00:42:10) weigh out and you got two more flakes (00:42:12) than I did. and box went all over the (00:42:15) floor just every which way. So my wife (00:42:18) had him clean it up. Next time she went (00:42:20) to the grocery store, she only put corn (00:42:23) flakes in the cart (00:42:28) for one month (00:42:29) >> instead of the (00:42:30) >> nothing else, (00:42:31) >> the nice stuff or whatever they were (00:42:33) having. (00:42:34) >> I begged her. I said, "Honey, please. (00:42:36) I'll give you 50 bucks for one box of (00:42:38) Golden Grams." One box. (00:42:40) >> That's what you ate. (00:42:40) >> Fruity Pebbles. Come on. That stuff is (00:42:43) bad for you, doctor. (00:42:44) >> I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. (00:42:46) I know. Cuz I'm only 16 years old, too, (00:42:49) and look what they've done. But given (00:42:51) that, she made a point. She said, "You (00:42:53) see what I You see what she did when (00:42:55) they just fought like that over the (00:42:57) cereal in one month in the cart, nothing (00:43:01) but cornflakes." (00:43:02) >> And they took it. And was there So, (00:43:04) you're saying that approach, it sounds (00:43:06) like it worked really well for you. For (00:43:08) you both. Well, they realize you do that (00:43:10) at the kitchen table again, you're going (00:43:11) to do it again. You know, that's the (00:43:13) key. She's going to do it again. You go (00:43:15) to confession, and I got to believe you (00:43:17) say, "Bless me, Father. Here's the list. (00:43:21) It's the same stuff I've been telling (00:43:22) you for years." So, we do that, but we (00:43:25) get frustrated at the kids when they (00:43:27) don't learn as quick as we think they (00:43:29) should. You know, I have sent him to the (00:43:30) corner 27 times this month, and he's (00:43:33) still doing it. I go, "What do you (00:43:36) expect? you're teaching him. Eventually, (00:43:39) he's going to get tired of the corner. (00:43:41) Eventually, he's going to say, "You know (00:43:42) what? The first 16 times I went here, it (00:43:45) wasn't so bad. It's starting to be a (00:43:47) drag now." You know, (00:43:49) >> what would be the the I don't know, the (00:43:51) gut test or something for knowing where (00:43:53) you're at in your parenting then? (00:43:55) Because I think people listening to you (00:43:56) are are thinking maybe, okay, well, the (00:43:58) wife at the beginning, she like they (00:43:59) were all really well behaved, but then (00:44:00) he's being realistic like they're going (00:44:02) to still make mistakes. They're human (00:44:03) beings, right? They're not like, you (00:44:05) know, they're not machines. And so you (00:44:07) can't like train the robot. They're (00:44:08) human beings with free will. (00:44:10) >> My wife always said, "We're raising (00:44:11) people." (00:44:12) >> Yes. Like how would you assess a child (00:44:16) or a group of children and family (00:44:18) >> for Yeah. They're they're on the right (00:44:19) track in terms of discipline and (00:44:21) behavior. This stuff is normal. And then (00:44:23) how would you be able to assess and be (00:44:24) like, "No, you got to really work on (00:44:25) your consistency, Mom. You got to really (00:44:27) work on holding the line, Mom." (00:44:29) >> You draw a parallel to adult diagnosis. (00:44:33) Typically, one of the conditions of (00:44:37) getting a diagnosis is how much it (00:44:39) interferes with your life. So, if you as (00:44:42) a parent are saying, "I am not enjoying (00:44:44) this at all. This is frustrating. I'm (00:44:48) not liking my own kid. This is this is (00:44:51) just every day is a potential battle, a (00:44:55) struggle." Then you reassess. You say, (00:44:57) "What is going on here?" Now, here's the (00:44:59) catch, Laya. (00:45:02) And again, I put this back at the foot (00:45:03) of experts. We tend to look at the (00:45:06) child, something's wrong with that kid. (00:45:09) Why is he like that? You know, he (00:45:11) doesn't listen. He's not cooperative. (00:45:14) He's stubborn. He's strong willed. He's (00:45:18) got OD. (00:45:19) >> OD. (00:45:20) >> Yeah. So, we we start we start blaming (00:45:23) the child. I would say roughly 90% of (00:45:26) the time with alterations. (00:45:29) >> We medicate them then, too. (00:45:30) >> Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. Yes. Oh, of course. (00:45:33) Because something's wrong with the (00:45:35) child. 90% of the time, you can improve (00:45:38) the dynamics of the parent. Whether it's (00:45:40) more affection, whether it's better (00:45:42) discipline, whether it's learning to act (00:45:44) before you get mad, all of these things (00:45:47) will affect the child. I get parents (00:45:50) coming into my office and they will say, (00:45:53) "This kid's tough. This kid is just (00:45:56) tough." And I'll ask, "What does the (00:45:58) what does the school say? (00:46:02) I don't understand that. The teacher (00:46:05) doesn't see any of this. The teacher (00:46:07) says he's a sweetheart. (00:46:09) What did you do? Well, I got out my (00:46:12) phone and I said, "Is this the boy? (00:46:14) Little brown-haired kid with a gap in (00:46:16) his teeth. I got the right school here." (00:46:18) And I said, "You see, it's in the (00:46:20) dynamic. (00:46:22) >> He goes to school." Now, that teacher (00:46:23) doesn't have a fraction of a parent's (00:46:25) authority, but he doesn't know that. His (00:46:27) perception is she has authority so (00:46:29) therefore I will be cooperating and I'll (00:46:30) be pleasant. That's the other thing. (00:46:32) Well disciplined kids are happier and (00:46:35) more pleasant. They're not suffocated. (00:46:39) So the parent alters things and the (00:46:41) child gets better. One of the more (00:46:43) common things I hear from clients after (00:46:44) a couple of sessions. They'll say (00:46:48) it's like I'm living with a different (00:46:49) child. (00:46:51) He you know what he did the other day? (00:46:52) He came up and he sat in my lap and he (00:46:53) hugged me and he said I love you mommy. (00:46:56) He hasn't said that to me in 3 weeks and (00:46:59) he's so much more pleasant. I go, "Yeah, (00:47:02) because you're not fighting with him. (00:47:05) You're disciplining him," which is true. (00:47:07) And you're doing better discipline than (00:47:08) you did, but you're not fighting with (00:47:11) him. But I feel mean when I discipline. (00:47:14) I just feel mean. (00:47:17) You can discipline mean, but discipline (00:47:20) itself is not mean. Discipline is a (00:47:23) loving gift. I always tell parents this. (00:47:24) If you don't do it because you feel (00:47:27) guilty or you're afraid he won't like (00:47:28) you or you're afraid of doing something (00:47:30) psychologically incorrect, (00:47:32) you'll be turning that child over to (00:47:34) those people out there. A judge, a (00:47:37) landlord, an army sergeant, a police (00:47:39) officer, an employer. Somebody will (00:47:41) discipline that child. And he said, "The (00:47:43) world doesn't love him like you do." So (00:47:46) please, you got to go against your (00:47:47) instinct. (00:47:49) Laya, I hate to discipline. I hate it. I (00:47:52) don't like it. I want to get along with (00:47:54) my kids, but I knew I had to. I knew I (00:47:58) had to go against my feelings to do what (00:48:01) was right. We had a we had a zero (00:48:04) tolerance for disrespect. You Oh my. (00:48:07) That gives that gives you the heaviest (00:48:08) consequences if you mistreat a sibling (00:48:11) or your parents. Heavy consequences. I (00:48:13) mean, we're talking maybe five days (00:48:15) straight a blackout or we're talking a (00:48:18) 500word essay. You You don't roll your (00:48:21) eyes at your mom. I came home one day (00:48:24) and my wife (00:48:26) I picked up that she was unhappy. Now (00:48:29) Laya, I am a trained therapist. (00:48:34) I am able to read the subtle cues (00:48:38) of a spouse and I don't want any of the (00:48:41) women listening to this program to (00:48:43) think, well, my husband can't do that (00:48:45) because I'm a professional. (00:48:47) So I came home and I picked up that my (00:48:50) wife was unhappy. (00:48:53) She was coming down the driveway holding (00:48:55) two children by the neck going, "I do (00:48:57) not like them, Ray I am. I do not like (00:48:59) them here or there. I do not like them (00:49:01) anywhere. I do not like them. I don't (00:49:02) care." I picked up on that. I thought, (00:49:04) "Hm, (00:49:06) I'll bet she's upset." (00:49:09) So Sarah, the 13-year-old, came out of (00:49:12) the house. What do you want me to do (00:49:13) now, Mom? (00:49:15) Well, Siri, I need you to sweep out the (00:49:17) garage. After you're done doing that, (00:49:19) you're going to empty the dishwasher, (00:49:21) put it all away, and then you come back (00:49:23) to me and I'll tell you what. (00:49:24) >> Was she one of the ones with the neck or (00:49:26) she was missing? (00:49:27) >> She was an extra one. No, the neck one. (00:49:29) >> She was She was doing good things. She (00:49:31) was obeying or No, she wasn't. You'll (00:49:33) find out. Okay, I'll let you keep going. (00:49:34) >> I said, "So, what'd you do, honey?" She (00:49:36) said, "I gave Sarah an hour's worth of (00:49:38) labor." Now, that was a consequence in (00:49:39) our house for the older kids. If you're (00:49:41) gonna misbehave, you're gonna get labor. (00:49:42) hours worth, half an hour, whatever. I (00:49:45) said, "What did Sarah do to get an (00:49:46) hour's worth of labor?" My wife said, (00:49:50) "She rolled her eyes at me." (00:49:54) Now, many parents accept rolling of the (00:49:57) eyes because the experts tell them, (00:49:59) "Children are expressing themselves. (00:50:01) They're not throwing a brick. They're (00:50:02) not cussing at you. They're just rolling (00:50:04) their eyes." Lla, you're delightful. But (00:50:07) if you ask me a question that I don't (00:50:10) like and I do this, (00:50:13) you'll never ask me back. (00:50:15) >> I mean, (00:50:16) >> ever because you'll think, "What a (00:50:18) jerk." That's what rolling eyes is. It's (00:50:21) >> depends how good the other advice is. (00:50:23) >> Well, yeah, you might use it, but you (00:50:25) won't ask me back. (00:50:26) >> Might cut out the roll eye part. (00:50:27) >> Rolling eyes is disdainful. (00:50:29) >> It is. It's very contentious. (00:50:30) >> So, she got an hour's worth of labor for (00:50:32) rolling her eyes. Is that because it's (00:50:35) so bad? No. (00:50:37) It's because your mother's so valuable. (00:50:39) >> You don't do that to your mom. And I (00:50:42) think that's where that kind of (00:50:44) understanding (00:50:46) was for my wife, which is there's (00:50:49) certain things we expect. We love you (00:50:51) desperately and we don't want to fight (00:50:53) with you. We don't want to argue. (00:50:56) Parents will say to me, (00:50:59) I talk worse to my kids than I talk to (00:51:01) any other human being. And I say, you (00:51:04) don't want to do that, do you? Well, no. (00:51:07) Well, probably because you're getting (00:51:09) frustrated because of discipline or (00:51:11) because of stuff they do. (00:51:14) >> Sounds like it's a mix of high (00:51:17) expectations. (00:51:17) >> Yes. (00:51:18) >> Very high. According to the culture (00:51:20) anyways, very high. (00:51:21) >> Oh, you're off the charts. (00:51:22) >> Intense affection. (00:51:24) >> Yes. (00:51:24) >> Intense affection. And then a (00:51:27) willingness to calmly have consequences (00:51:29) and follow up. (00:51:30) >> Take control (00:51:31) >> as best you can. It's not going to be (00:51:32) perfect the consistency, but to take (00:51:34) control with the consequences. Not (00:51:36) violent, angry consequences, but (00:51:38) consequences that have a lot to do with (00:51:40) removing, as you say, blackout (00:51:42) privileges or opportunities or things (00:51:44) that the kids like. (00:51:45) >> Very well summarized. This is not rocket (00:51:48) science. (00:51:49) >> See, the experts, my first book was a (00:51:51) book titled, "You're a better parent (00:51:52) than you think." (00:51:54) >> I love that one. It it was because I saw (00:51:57) so many parents when I worked at the (00:51:58) mental health center who were insecure, (00:52:01) unsure of themselves, second-guessing, (00:52:04) lost authority, and I'm wondering what (00:52:06) is going on here? Well, that was pretty (00:52:10) much at the very beginning of the (00:52:11) onslaught of the experts and all their (00:52:14) theories and all their notions and they (00:52:17) were confusing parents. parents were (00:52:18) trying to be psychologically correct and (00:52:22) in so doing they were losing authority, (00:52:24) they were losing resolve. They were (00:52:27) secondguessing themselves. And I thought (00:52:29) this is this is bad. This this is (00:52:31) hurting a lot of good people. (00:52:35) People will say to me, "Well, yeah, (00:52:37) you're an expert, though, so why should (00:52:38) we listen to you?" And my answer is, you (00:52:40) don't have to listen to me. Take what (00:52:43) I'm saying and judge it. How well does (00:52:45) it work for your family in your house? (00:52:48) See if it works. See if it squares with (00:52:50) your instincts and reality. If it (00:52:52) doesn't, dump it. But I'm not going to (00:52:55) say if you don't do it my way, let me (00:52:58) tell you what's going to happen to your (00:53:00) kid, which is all too often the message. (00:53:03) >> I think a lot of parents are very deep (00:53:06) down on a primordial level afraid of (00:53:08) messing up their kids. (00:53:09) >> Yep. Absolutely. (00:53:10) >> Especially if they had were messed up at (00:53:13) all in their childhood. It's like extra (00:53:14) extra intense that fear. (00:53:16) >> Yes. (00:53:17) >> What do you recommend to parents? (00:53:19) Because I mean even separate from the (00:53:21) expert stuff, they're just like really (00:53:23) worried about making a mistake. (00:53:25) >> In the beginning, I used to say parents (00:53:28) are dominated by the fear of not being (00:53:31) psychologically correct. (00:53:33) After doing this for 40 plus years, (00:53:35) Laya, I am now convinced that parents (00:53:38) are dominated by the fear of their (00:53:41) child's reaction. Will he hate me if I (00:53:45) don't give her a smartphone when she's (00:53:47) 14? (00:53:48) Is she going to be resentful? Is she (00:53:51) going to be sneaky and defiant? Is she (00:53:53) going to be socially stunted? Am I going (00:53:56) to have all kinds of trouble with the (00:53:57) relatives and everybody else who thinks (00:53:59) I'm a throwback Neanderthal? So now (00:54:02) they're parenting scared is what they're (00:54:04) doing. And there's a couple of brief (00:54:06) answers to that. One, God knew that kids (00:54:10) were going to be raised by us with all (00:54:12) of our frailties, all of our humanness, (00:54:14) all of our emotions, all of our (00:54:16) uncertainties that we have. He knew (00:54:19) that. So, he built them to withstand us. (00:54:22) They're not spun glass. They're steel (00:54:25) belted radials. (00:54:27) I see so many kids who come from vicious (00:54:29) environments. (00:54:32) Some of them have become priests. Some (00:54:35) of them are among the most delightful, (00:54:36) welladjusted folks I know. Now, how did (00:54:38) that happen? Well, the durability of the (00:54:41) human spirit. There's a lot of research (00:54:44) coming out now, Laya, that says that we (00:54:47) we can survive and thrive really bad (00:54:50) environments. So, if in fact we can do (00:54:53) that, just think how much more so we'll (00:54:56) do it in a loving home (00:54:58) >> with parents who are trying to be good (00:55:00) parents. Here's what I always tell (00:55:02) parents. (00:55:04) If my children go astray, (00:55:07) I want to be able to say (00:55:10) it's because they had to go through me, (00:55:14) not because I stepped aside. (00:55:17) >> That's beautiful. (00:55:19) And you're praying them, praying for (00:55:20) them. Even if that step aside, it's part (00:55:22) of a long path to eventually back come (00:55:24) back home. Cuz even if they go astray, (00:55:26) that's not the end. (00:55:27) >> Let's jump ahead. Let's jump ahead to (00:55:29) something I'm sure you see a lot of. And (00:55:32) now I see this in so many of my clients. (00:55:36) These are parents who have raised their (00:55:38) children and the children have left the (00:55:40) church. (00:55:41) >> A lot of people (00:55:42) >> it's an epidemic. (00:55:44) >> It's really heartbreaking for so many (00:55:45) families. (00:55:46) >> Unprecedented (00:55:48) in human history. (00:55:50) So what I have had now starting to do at (00:55:52) the end of a lot of my talks is I offer (00:55:55) this. I say I'm going to take your guilt (00:55:57) away. (00:55:59) I want to prove to you logically that (00:56:01) your days of beating yourself up over (00:56:03) this, that your children have left the (00:56:05) faith they were raised with, that you (00:56:07) tried your best to impart the faith to (00:56:10) them, and now they're either drifting, (00:56:13) rejecting, maybe they've cut off ties (00:56:15) with you because they don't like your (00:56:16) religious beliefs or your political (00:56:17) affiliation. (00:56:19) Will you help me with this, Laya? I'm (00:56:21) going to ask you a set of questions. (00:56:22) Would you answer them? (00:56:23) >> Let's do it. (00:56:24) >> Is there a God? (00:56:25) >> Yes. (00:56:25) >> Is Christ God? (00:56:26) >> Yes. Was he sinless? (00:56:28) >> Yes. (00:56:29) >> Could he perform miracles? (00:56:30) >> Yes. (00:56:31) >> Did he have a perfect understanding of (00:56:32) human nature? (00:56:33) >> Yes. (00:56:34) >> Could he get most people to follow him? (00:56:39) >> And I always tell these parents. So (00:56:42) >> maybe most, but not all. (00:56:43) >> I don't think most. I don't think he (00:56:45) killed him. (00:56:46) >> Oh, I see. I see what you're saying. (00:56:48) Yeah, you're right. (00:56:49) >> So, I want to say to these parents, you (00:56:50) think you're better at this than the God (00:56:52) man? (00:56:53) >> Can you do a miracle? Can you even do a (00:56:55) crummy card trick? (00:56:58) >> Our Lord, our Lord himself couldn't get (00:57:00) most people to follow him. We think (00:57:01) there's some kind of spiritual formula (00:57:03) that we must have missed it. (00:57:04) >> You know, I went to pray the rosary in (00:57:06) Aramaic, kneeling on broken glass while (00:57:08) I levitated. You know, my husband let (00:57:10) him sit on the couch. Spiritual (00:57:11) sloppiness. And we think we just failed. (00:57:15) My 10 children are grown. I got some (00:57:18) probably going to serve a church. I got (00:57:19) some probably going to serve time. you (00:57:22) know, they're all so different in the (00:57:24) way they absorb the faith. (00:57:26) >> How would you encourage parents to be (00:57:28) self-aware where they both accept their (00:57:31) limitations and imperfections and the (00:57:33) reality that their child has free will (00:57:35) and we live in the world that we live (00:57:36) in. But then they are also there's a (00:57:39) balance of them acknowledging, oh, I've (00:57:41) really got to work on my patience. I got (00:57:42) to not lose it. Or, oh, I need to be I'm (00:57:45) at 25% consistency. I got to bump up to (00:57:47) 50 at at minimum here. or oh, I'm (00:57:50) spending too much time or our family is (00:57:52) spending too much time on sports or work (00:57:55) or whatever other thing that's now (00:57:56) distracting from consistent family time (00:57:59) or time with the children. (00:58:02) How how do you give us some tools for (00:58:04) how parents can run this analysis? And (00:58:07) you you said something earlier, so I'm (00:58:09) kind of asking it kind of double, I (00:58:10) guess, because you you said, "Well, if (00:58:11) something looks like it's broken, then (00:58:13) you really start evaluating then." (00:58:15) >> Let's take a couple of those that you (00:58:17) said. Let's take patience. (00:58:19) When parents say, "I need to develop (00:58:21) more patience. I'm not patient. I can't (00:58:22) believe this." There are several key (00:58:25) things that parents are doing to (00:58:26) themselves that make them feel like (00:58:28) they're not patient. Okay. First is they (00:58:32) forget that they're raising a child. A (00:58:36) self-centered. (00:58:39) The universe revolves around me (00:58:42) impulsive human being who has to grow (00:58:45) out of that over years and years and (00:58:46) years. And I dare say I haven't outgrown (00:58:49) it and neither have you. So you remember (00:58:52) that you're raising a person, a soul (00:58:54) who's capable of pretty much anything. (00:58:57) And as a parent, you're going to have to (00:58:59) try to anticipate or deal with. That's (00:59:01) first thing you you realize what you're (00:59:03) dealing with. Parents get frustrated (00:59:04) when their kid acts like a kid. (00:59:06) >> And they have to discipline him. Why are (00:59:08) you getting so frustrated? You know he's (00:59:10) going to do stuff like that, so deal (00:59:11) with it. But I've been dealing with it. (00:59:13) It's okay. God's been dealing with you (00:59:16) for how many years now? (00:59:17) >> So true. (00:59:17) >> Okay, so that's first thing. Second (00:59:20) thing, they wait too long. Your two boys (00:59:24) are bickering. Now you've warned them. (00:59:26) Boys, settle, please. They settle for 12 (00:59:30) seconds. No fighting. (00:59:30) >> Yeah, they settle for 12 seconds. They (00:59:32) start up again. (00:59:34) >> Did you hear me? Did you hear me? (00:59:38) >> Or the totally meaningless, our family (00:59:40) doesn't fight. (00:59:41) >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You better tell (00:59:42) your better tell your boys that. Tell (00:59:44) them to get off the boxing gloves. (00:59:47) >> Third time, you go, I'm coming in there. (00:59:50) >> Now, by the fourth time, you're feeling (00:59:51) pretty frustrated and pretty impatient. (00:59:53) Why? You went on too long. (00:59:56) >> At the first sign of mistreating each (00:59:58) other, if you act, you act before you're (01:00:01) frustrated. If you just let this (01:00:03) continue to badger until you finally go, (01:00:05) I can't take this anymore. Then you go, (01:00:07) why do I get so impatient? Well, I would (01:00:09) too if I let it go on that long. That's (01:00:11) another factor. Three, (01:00:15) you take it personal. (01:00:17) I am trying to raise these children and (01:00:19) I love them and I do all kinds of things (01:00:22) for them and this is how they act. This (01:00:24) is what they do. They want to just make (01:00:27) my life miserable or what? (01:00:30) No, they don't want to make your life (01:00:32) miserable. They want to do what they (01:00:33) want to do. You just happen to be in the (01:00:35) way. That's all. So, you don't take it (01:00:38) personal. you know, if you're going to (01:00:40) screw up, it's you screwed up. I'm here (01:00:42) to try to deal with it. So, those are (01:00:44) some of the elements of of of losing (01:00:46) patience. Okay, that's a factor. It's a (01:00:48) big factor. Another factor in terms of (01:00:51) standards. (01:00:53) This is what the experts have done to (01:00:55) parents and this makes them insecure. (01:00:58) Laya, you know, if you put your (01:01:01) standards too high, your children are (01:01:03) going to rebel. (01:01:05) They're going to just spit out those (01:01:07) standards. You know, if you make them go (01:01:09) to church, by the time they're 19, (01:01:11) they're going to puke up religion. (01:01:13) They're just going to decide, "You (01:01:14) forced me to go to church and now I (01:01:16) don't have to because I'm an adult." (01:01:19) So, the first thing is that's nonsense. (01:01:24) You put your standards where they belong (01:01:26) knowing you're not going to reach them, (01:01:29) but that's by definition what a standard (01:01:31) is. If I don't want you mistreating your (01:01:33) sister ever, that's a standard. That's a (01:01:37) perfect standard. Now, I know you're not (01:01:39) going to reach it, but that's the (01:01:40) standard. I'm not going to go, (01:01:43) "Well, that is kind of high, isn't it?" (01:01:46) All right, I'll tell you what. You're (01:01:48) allowed to push her down twice a week (01:01:50) and you can scream at her once and and (01:01:52) no kicking. Okay. Bel below the knee. (01:01:54) Below the knee. You can kick below the (01:01:56) knee. I don't want to have too high a (01:01:57) standard. What is this? If you're not (01:01:59) allowed to be disrespectful to mom. (01:02:02) Well, oh boy. That seems kind of high, (01:02:04) doesn't it? All right. I'll tell you (01:02:05) what. You're allowed three. Yeah, right, (01:02:08) mom. Or whatever. Or get a clue, Mom. (01:02:14) You can have three of those a week. (01:02:15) Okay, but that makes no sense. A (01:02:18) standard by its definition is something (01:02:20) you reach for. Either that or our Lord (01:02:22) didn't know what he was talking about (01:02:24) when he said, "You must be perfect even (01:02:26) as your heavenly father is perfect." And (01:02:27) I want to go, Jesus, have you been (01:02:30) listening to the experts? That's a (01:02:32) standard. Now we Christians are going to (01:02:34) rebel. (01:02:35) Oh, and we do. (01:02:37) >> Of course we do. But it's not because of (01:02:39) the standard. It's because we want to do (01:02:40) what we want to do. (01:02:42) >> Wow. Yeah. It's so true. Do you think (01:02:44) it's important to communicate the (01:02:46) standard? Like what what's what would be (01:02:48) your recommendation for the (01:02:49) communication of the sp the standard to (01:02:51) the kids? (01:02:51) >> Most of the stuff that kids do that's (01:02:54) normal misbehavior. And most of the (01:02:56) stuff that frustrates parent is (01:02:57) repetitive stuff. Bedtime, bad times, (01:03:00) meal or chore sherking, sibling (01:03:02) quibbling, homework hassles. (01:03:04) uh curfew just it's repetitive stuff. (01:03:09) >> So they know the standard. I mean you've (01:03:10) already talked to them about it. You've (01:03:12) already disciplined it six times. (01:03:13) >> It's not rocket science. (01:03:14) >> It's no they know the standards. You (01:03:16) know when you (01:03:16) >> don't fight don't fight with your (01:03:17) brother. (01:03:18) >> Yeah. When you fight with your brother (01:03:19) you don't have to keep telling him (01:03:20) >> now. Do you know the rule? You're not (01:03:22) allowed to fight. (01:03:22) >> Well I think that's the experts. It's (01:03:24) like every single time you got to be (01:03:25) like don't hit. We want to take good (01:03:28) care of our little sister because she's (01:03:30) >> You know what? When you say we don't (01:03:31) hit, I could just picture the average (01:03:32) kid going, "Maybe you don't. I do." (01:03:35) Okay. It's just like, "What? What do you (01:03:37) You're talking." (01:03:38) >> I mean, you can still say don't hit. (01:03:39) It's not good to hit. But your point is (01:03:41) you don't like make it a whole coaching (01:03:43) session with the child. Explain it is (01:03:45) what you're saying, (01:03:46) >> you don't have to keep reminding him. (01:03:48) You've told him 212 times. (01:03:50) >> They're smart. You think they understand (01:03:52) the idea even if they're not living it (01:03:53) out in their behavior yet. (01:03:55) >> Do you have a dog? (01:03:56) >> No, we don't have a dog. (01:03:58) >> I told (01:03:59) >> Should I get one? (01:03:59) >> A big one. (01:04:00) We kind We kind of want Well, I don't (01:04:01) know. Those are those are (01:04:02) >> Oh, they're sweethearts of dogs. There's (01:04:04) no way. They are. I have two rats. (01:04:06) They're wonderful. They love They love (01:04:08) my grandkids. (01:04:08) >> Are you a pit bull guy, too? (01:04:10) >> No. I mean, okay. Here's what I say (01:04:13) about a dog. I'll say to the parent, "Do (01:04:15) you have a dog?" Yes. (01:04:17) >> Did you wait until your dog understood (01:04:22) not to pee in your house? Or did you (01:04:24) train him not to pee in your house? I (01:04:27) trained him. Is your three-year-old (01:04:30) smarter than your dog? (01:04:32) Yes. I said, "Well, not unless it's (01:04:34) Lassie, then he's not." I said, "Well, (01:04:38) you're you're you're teaching your (01:04:39) three-year-old. You you've you've sat (01:04:41) him on the steps 12 times now for (01:04:43) kicking his brother. (01:04:46) He knows you don't kick his brother. You (01:04:48) don't have to keep telling him every (01:04:49) time, do we kick people in this house?" (01:04:52) H is that your brother? That is not a (01:04:54) soccer ball. That is your brother. I (01:04:56) mean, we do these kinds of things. It's (01:04:58) exhausting. It really is exhausting. (01:05:00) Especially if you have seven kids. It's (01:05:02) exhausting. (01:05:02) >> Instead of just be like, if you kick (01:05:03) your brother, black out. You did it. (01:05:06) Okay. Sit down. (01:05:06) >> No more Legos. There you go. (01:05:08) >> No. No emotion. I don't want to fight (01:05:10) over this. I just want to get past it. (01:05:12) >> So that's that's (01:05:13) >> Can they earn the Legos back? (01:05:15) >> Well, sure. Of course you can. (01:05:16) >> So you can get out of Blackout by doing (01:05:17) positive chores. You can you can build (01:05:19) any system of economics you want. Okay. (01:05:22) You you you (01:05:23) >> if he says you, "Okay, mommy, I I sat on (01:05:25) the steps. Not going to have my Legos." (01:05:27) You know what, son? I was going to give (01:05:30) you your Legos, (01:05:31) but you screamed for a long time. (01:05:35) So, no. I may maybe tomorrow, maybe the (01:05:37) next day, I don't know. But don't scream (01:05:39) when you're on the steps like that. (01:05:40) You're 19 years old. Okay. So, yeah, you (01:05:44) that's the thing I want to get to (01:05:45) parents. Most of the people who listen (01:05:47) to you, who even listen to me, they're (01:05:49) loving people. (01:05:49) >> Yeah. They and we want to have a perfect (01:05:51) rubric and and make sure we do it right. (01:05:54) Well, you want to be Hallmark family (01:05:55) card. You're forgetting you're not (01:05:58) dealing with something easy like a rabid (01:06:00) timberwolf. You're dealing with a child (01:06:03) who is unpredictable and could do all (01:06:05) kinds of stuff. And it doesn't mean that (01:06:07) age 22 they're going to be sitting in (01:06:10) Springer talking about you and the time (01:06:12) you left him on the pot for 4 minutes (01:06:14) too long. (01:06:15) >> Okay. Well, I got to ask. When they're a (01:06:16) good negotiator, this is where I see (01:06:18) this going sideways. Okay. I've got one (01:06:20) child. He is a phenomenal negotiator. (01:06:24) His anchoring (01:06:25) like he anchors way beyond what you (01:06:27) could ever dream of like and then he (01:06:29) he's willing to walk away at any point. (01:06:32) I mean this guy he will not budge, (01:06:34) right? Very but he's all kind of winsome (01:06:36) about it too, right? Very excellent at (01:06:38) it. I'm imagining with what you're (01:06:39) describing with the blackout. Okay. (01:06:41) Well, if you do the Legos D, you know, (01:06:43) I'm going to take away the Legos. Okay. (01:06:44) Well, can I get them back? Okay. Well, (01:06:46) mommy, I'll go sit right now and then (01:06:47) I'll tell my brother I'm really really (01:06:48) sorry and then I'll make you a Lego and (01:06:50) I'll build something that you really (01:06:51) like, mom. Okay, (01:06:52) >> of course. (01:06:53) >> Well, (01:06:53) >> and maybe maybe that's fine. Maybe that (01:06:55) the answer is sure. Then he's going to (01:06:56) go above and beyond. (01:06:57) >> You decide. (01:06:58) >> Okay. (01:06:58) >> But here's a couple of things you could (01:07:00) do. I personally think one of the finest (01:07:03) techniques that a parent can develop is (01:07:06) a dumb look. (01:07:08) So when your son starts to negotiate and (01:07:10) you go (01:07:14) like I I I don't understand. You're just (01:07:17) giving them a dumb look. And when we say (01:07:20) they're negotiators, what we're really (01:07:21) saying is we have to negotiate back. You (01:07:23) can't be a negotiator. Somebody's not (01:07:24) negotiating with you. (01:07:26) >> You don't play. (01:07:27) >> Here's what my wife did. My wife used to (01:07:28) do this. She'd say, (01:07:32) >> "Are you arguing?" (01:07:35) >> Like she was confused. Are you arguing? (01:07:38) That meant if you say another word, (01:07:40) something's going to happen. (01:07:42) >> Well, like the like the like the cookies (01:07:44) before dinner as an example, right? I (01:07:46) want a cookie. No, we're it's before (01:07:47) dinner. Please, just one little piece. (01:07:49) Please. Please. No. No. We're not doing (01:07:50) cookies before dinner. Please. Please. (01:07:52) >> Why do you keep repeating that? Why (01:07:54) don't you just say to him, "You know (01:07:55) what, honey? Please don't ask me again (01:07:57) or you won't get a cookie after dinner." (01:07:59) >> Okay, that's why I don't care. I I mean, (01:08:02) I just own it. Sorry, son. You blew the (01:08:04) cookie. Maybe tomorrow. See, it's just (01:08:06) kind of a (01:08:07) >> easy kind of a kind of a go with the (01:08:10) float kind of thing. (01:08:11) >> I love it. (01:08:12) >> So of you know what it is? So much of it (01:08:14) comes down to and this is what gentle (01:08:15) parenting has a problem. (01:08:18) >> I want my kid to understand. (01:08:21) >> I want him to see that I don't want to (01:08:23) hurt his feelings. I don't want to make (01:08:24) him feelings. (01:08:28) >> I know he's going to argue with you if (01:08:29) you let him. And you're not a jack (01:08:32) booted autocrat that says, "Hey, my way (01:08:34) or the highway, punk." That's one of the (01:08:36) biggest misunderstandings people have (01:08:38) that if you're a constant I'm not (01:08:40) constant. If you're a consistent, firm (01:08:41) discipline, then that's mean. (01:08:44) No, (01:08:46) the meanest parents I've seen are the (01:08:48) ones who don't discipline well because (01:08:50) they get frustrated. (01:08:52) >> Then they say and do things that they (01:08:54) oh, they just can't believe they're (01:08:55) doing. That's the part that traps them. (01:08:59) >> All right. What do you recommend, Dr. (01:09:01) Ray, for developing a healthy family (01:09:04) culture (01:09:06) >> where you enjoy you enjoy your kids? You (01:09:09) enjoy your family dynamic. And I do hear (01:09:12) from a lot of moms and dads, but (01:09:14) especially the moms that they're just (01:09:16) like, it is a it's hard. It's hard. It's (01:09:19) hard. You know, the discipline's one big (01:09:20) part of it, but it's like the endless (01:09:23) to-do list, the endless (01:09:24) responsibilities, and so they're not (01:09:26) feeling like they're enjoying (01:09:27) motherhood. (01:09:28) >> To the degree that you can eliminate or (01:09:31) reduce discipline time, which is what (01:09:34) you will do if you're consistent and you (01:09:36) mean it. Now, you have more time just (01:09:39) for the normal interaction. Okay? Once (01:09:42) kids are not going to be bad if they (01:09:45) know what the rules are, okay? They're (01:09:47) not going to challenge them. So, that's (01:09:48) the first thing. Now you got more time (01:09:49) for the good stuff. Secondly, (01:09:52) you're going to have to prioritize. (01:09:55) All these activities I have called in (01:09:57) one of my books chasing the good at the (01:10:01) cost of the best. Yeah, it's not bad to (01:10:04) be in these sports five nights a week. (01:10:06) That's not bad in and of itself, (01:10:09) but something was robbed. (01:10:12) Maybe some dinner was robbed. Maybe the (01:10:15) fact that well she's over there playing (01:10:17) soccer and he's over there with little (01:10:18) league and one of you has to be over (01:10:19) there and one of you has to be over (01:10:20) there and we can't even be together to (01:10:21) watch the game. You got to sit back. One (01:10:24) of my earlier books I interviewed strong (01:10:27) families and one mother said she felt (01:10:30) trapped into that oh boy we don't have (01:10:33) any family time. She told her boys, "All (01:10:36) right, guys. (01:10:39) Get yourself a nice hot shower because (01:10:40) when you come out, (01:10:42) I want you to pick two activities. All (01:10:45) the rest go. (01:10:47) It's interfering with our family too (01:10:49) much." (01:10:50) When we had 10 kids at home and at one (01:10:52) point they were between uh 16 and four, (01:10:56) well, there's a lot of activities there. (01:10:58) So, what we did is first of all, only (01:11:00) certain kids were allowed one activity. (01:11:04) And we made sure we picked activities (01:11:06) that allowed a lot of free time in our (01:11:08) family. I'm not going to put you on a (01:11:10) little league team that practices six (01:11:11) nights a week and has tournaments every (01:11:13) other week. That's not going to happen. (01:11:15) Okay? You're not some superstar. The (01:11:18) odds of you being a pro are one in 1.26 (01:11:21) million. (01:11:23) The odds of us losing family time are (01:11:25) pretty close to one. So, a parent has to (01:11:28) make those decisions. And I think the (01:11:29) culture has convinced them. (01:11:32) Children have to experience these (01:11:34) things. You want a well-rounded child. (01:11:36) Yes. And it's nice to pick and choose. (01:11:39) But you ask yourself, is this robbing (01:11:41) our family? (01:11:43) Cuz that's where that's where the morals (01:11:45) and the values are given. (01:11:48) >> This is where the culture makes the case (01:11:49) that you shouldn't have more than a (01:11:51) small handful of kids. One, two, enough (01:11:54) attention. (01:11:54) >> Yeah. You can't give them enough (01:11:55) opportunities, attention, and so better (01:11:58) to have less and pour into them more (01:12:00) than to have more and pour into those (01:12:02) more less. (01:12:03) >> I said to my wife after we adopted our (01:12:06) four-year-olds, at that point we had 65 (01:12:08) 4431. We adopted the four-year-olds and (01:12:10) they had some rough history. And I said (01:12:13) to my wife, I said, you know, they're (01:12:15) taking up a lot of our time and I'm (01:12:18) feeling like I can't I can't (01:12:19) individually interact with the kids as (01:12:22) much as I would want. (01:12:24) And my wife said, "Raymond, (01:12:27) you big dummy." Okay. No, she didn't say (01:12:30) that. But I read the look on her face. (01:12:33) She said, "Ray, that's why they have (01:12:35) brothers and sisters. (01:12:38) That's a lot of the interaction is with (01:12:40) their brothers and sisters, you know. (01:12:41) Yeah, it's nice to get on the floor and (01:12:43) play with them, but their brothers and (01:12:45) sisters are going to get on the floor (01:12:46) and play with them a lot more. And (01:12:47) besides that, Ray, you can't get up half (01:12:48) the time you get on the floor. You have (01:12:50) to press your life alert button." (01:12:52) So given that, she was right. You know, (01:12:54) the bigger families, and there's (01:12:55) research that says this, Laya, that says (01:12:58) kids from big families by and large grow (01:13:01) up to be better adjusted, more giving, (01:13:04) less selfish. When my daughter went to (01:13:07) college, she went to an all girls school (01:13:09) and the president of the college said, (01:13:12) "We have trouble with some of the (01:13:14) freshman girls because they can't get (01:13:16) used to having a roommate." Now, my (01:13:19) daughter grew up with four of them in (01:13:22) one room, and she said, "Just just one (01:13:27) roommate." Wow. She entered Nirvana. (01:13:32) >> I love that view and the way you (01:13:35) articulated that, Dr. Ray, because it's (01:13:37) so encouraging and it's so (01:13:39) counterultural. Oh my gosh, it's so (01:13:41) counterultural. But you're giving your (01:13:43) kids the gift of their siblings. That (01:13:46) that's what's like not in the equation, (01:13:47) right? like, oh, we're going to only (01:13:48) have one or two or three cuz we want to (01:13:50) be able to do the soccer practice and (01:13:52) the dance practice and the music (01:13:53) practice and the this and the travels to (01:13:55) European destinations and the right and (01:13:58) get the car and the house and but you (01:14:00) didn't give them another best friend. (01:14:04) You didn't give them that other two, (01:14:06) three, four siblings to play with and to (01:14:08) be I mean I am our our family. I've got (01:14:11) seven siblings and my h my husband and (01:14:13) his seven siblings. These are this is (01:14:15) our family. (01:14:15) >> That' be a wild Christmas Eve. Oh yeah, (01:14:17) it's always a wild and sometimes like (01:14:19) this, you know, this holiday, some (01:14:21) holidays different people do different (01:14:22) homes because it's getting so big and (01:14:24) crazy and different. But yeah, when we (01:14:25) get together, it's it's amazing. But (01:14:27) would I trade one of them for what? An (01:14:29) extra music lesson. Like what now? I did (01:14:32) >> 300 more feet in your house, huh? (01:14:34) >> Right. I mean, for what? For what? I (01:14:35) mean, and my parents bl like thanks be (01:14:38) to God. And my husband's parents like (01:14:39) they poured into us. We were given so (01:14:42) much, right? But there's always going to (01:14:44) be something that is is a trade-off, (01:14:46) right? And there are real trade-offs and (01:14:48) there are real challenges. But what are (01:14:49) you going to do? Trade another soul? Get (01:14:52) rid of one of those souls? Boot them out (01:14:53) cuz they were like tipped the scale a (01:14:54) little too much? (01:14:55) >> I've been doing this a long time, Laya. (01:14:58) Long enough to talk to parents whose (01:15:00) children are 30, 40, 50 years old. (01:15:04) I've heard this so many times. (01:15:08) I wish I would have had more kids. (01:15:10) >> I have never yet heard a single parent (01:15:13) say to me, I had too many kids. (01:15:17) Yeah. Is an eternal soul. How can you (01:15:19) imagine that soul that culture (01:15:21) >> doesn't value kids? (01:15:22) >> It doesn't. (01:15:22) >> No. No. And you know as well as I do uh (01:15:25) somewhat over a 100 countries right now (01:15:27) have negative birth rates and they (01:15:29) suspect that in a few more decades it's (01:15:32) going to be pretty much the whole (01:15:32) world's going to have a negative birth (01:15:34) rate. Well, what's going to happen then? (01:15:36) Because all of the predictions that said (01:15:38) we're going to drown ourselves in (01:15:39) people. We're not going to have enough (01:15:41) food. We're going to turn on each other. (01:15:43) Well, the predictions were wrong. And (01:15:46) what has happened is that we've stopped (01:15:48) having children. (01:15:50) The modal number of children right now (01:15:52) in the US is one. Motal meaning the most (01:15:55) common number. Now, that's probably in (01:15:58) part because they haven't had a second (01:15:59) yet, but that is the most common number (01:16:01) of children, one. (01:16:04) So, the question becomes, (01:16:06) >> the birth rate's 1.7, I think. (01:16:08) >> Yes, it is. We've fallen below the 2.1 (01:16:10) for the first time. we have for for a (01:16:13) while there we sustained ourselves right (01:16:15) around 2.1 not anymore and there are (01:16:18) several countries below one you can't (01:16:20) recover from one after a couple (01:16:21) generations of one you're in big trouble (01:16:24) so as a result we've we've lost sight of (01:16:30) the value of kids just have and there's (01:16:34) many many reasons for this (01:16:36) unfortunately you now got to go against (01:16:39) the culture if you're going to have more (01:16:40) than 1.8 eight kids, six kids. And I (01:16:42) can't tell you how many mothers have (01:16:43) told me, "My own parents are getting on (01:16:46) me. My own parents are saying, "When are (01:16:48) you going to stop?" I had one dad tell (01:16:50) me, "We don't tell our family anymore (01:16:53) that we're pregnant. We don't want to (01:16:54) hear it." (01:16:55) >> That's so sad. (01:16:57) >> That's so tough. Now, how do you (01:16:59) balance, and we're talking about this (01:17:01) from the Christian perspective now, of (01:17:03) course, and all of this is, but how do (01:17:05) you balance being open to life and (01:17:07) generous, right, with, okay, we've got (01:17:11) these real, you know, situations of (01:17:14) dealing with the needs of our kids, (01:17:16) economic realities, maybe one a spouse (01:17:18) is really ill, whatever is going on, and (01:17:22) potentially spacing children or having (01:17:25) more of a gap between children. And I'm (01:17:28) going to add one other piece to this. (01:17:30) I've had this controversial discussion (01:17:32) lately with some, you know, friends and (01:17:34) people that some good people are having. (01:17:36) Okay. Well, if I get to seven kids, is (01:17:39) it okay to practice NFP and avoid? And (01:17:42) if God still gives us a baby, great. But (01:17:44) to avoid having children, we're not (01:17:46) contracepting because contraception is (01:17:47) immoral, but we're going to generally (01:17:50) speaking avoid and not try to have a (01:17:52) baby. And but we had seven, so we're (01:17:54) generous. We did we did the generous (01:17:56) thing. (01:17:57) It's okay to practice NFP before seven. (01:18:01) That's the church's teaching. You can (01:18:03) practice NFP for a legitimate reason for (01:18:07) your family. If you if you have, for (01:18:09) example, a mom who every every pregnancy (01:18:12) she's got terribly sick, she's been bed (01:18:13) bound, she hasn't been able to move, and (01:18:15) now she's got three little ones, and (01:18:17) you're going to expect her to be (01:18:18) pregnant, that's a legit reason. Or if (01:18:20) you absolutely cannot pay your bills, (01:18:24) you're struggling bad. That's a legit (01:18:26) reason. And the church would never say (01:18:27) you have to take any kid at all times no (01:18:29) matter what. No. NFP is very successful. (01:18:33) It's more successful than the pill. You (01:18:34) know that. And so as a consequence, the (01:18:37) church would say this with judicious (01:18:39) guidance, (01:18:40) >> you can make this decision. Now those (01:18:43) who say, "Well, we've had seven, so (01:18:44) we've done our duty." (01:18:46) I think maybe they were operating out of (01:18:48) a false idea, which is that there's some (01:18:51) kind of minimum number that removes you (01:18:55) from being sinful, that removes you from (01:18:57) not welcoming life. (01:19:00) No, no, there there isn't. There is a (01:19:03) situation for a small example with the (01:19:06) adoption. (01:19:07) >> I mean, you had 10. (01:19:08) >> We had 10. I was on a plane and I saw a (01:19:11) movie that broke my heart. (01:19:14) I went home and I told my wife, "Honey, (01:19:17) can we adopt again?" (01:19:20) She said, "Okay, all right, Ray. See (01:19:22) what you think." So, we went through all (01:19:23) the process. (01:19:26) >> What movie? (01:19:27) >> Uh, Hard Ball. (01:19:29) >> A little little uh inner city boy was (01:19:31) shot by a random random gun. And I (01:19:33) thought that kid didn't have a chance. (01:19:35) >> Okay. (01:19:36) >> I was crying. I was crying on the plane, (01:19:38) man. Just like this. And the lady next (01:19:39) to me looking at me like, "What a (01:19:40) weirdo." And I said, "I got something in (01:19:42) my eye." (01:19:45) She took me to a restaurant and said, (01:19:47) "Ray, (01:19:49) if you want to adopt again, I will, but (01:19:52) I have to tell you, I think I'm at my (01:19:54) load limit." And Laya, I'm a very (01:19:58) sensitive guy. I said, "You (01:20:02) I work for a living." No, I didn't. I (01:20:05) said, "Honey, your call. (01:20:08) You're lifting the heavy load here in (01:20:10) this family. Your call. You raise kids. (01:20:13) All I do is write parenting books. You (01:20:16) got the tougher job. And so we didn't (01:20:18) adopt again. We made a decision. All (01:20:21) right. So (01:20:21) >> that would have been 11. (01:20:22) >> That would have been 11. (01:20:23) >> Was there a conversation about (01:20:26) I don't know if this is too personal, (01:20:27) but oh, let's get a cleaner to come (01:20:30) twice a week or let's let's get a nanny (01:20:32) in the house. Let's get a living opair. (01:20:34) >> I can afford it. I said, "Honey, we're (01:20:36) going to get bring you somebody to come (01:20:37) in here and and clean." When you got (01:20:39) when you got 10 kids under 12, it smells (01:20:40) in there. It's like a It's like a (01:20:42) landfill. It's a swamp. You know, it's (01:20:45) like, "Oh, man. Get somebody in here, (01:20:47) honey. Put out the candles. Get the (01:20:48) candles out here." Yeah. So, yeah, we (01:20:51) did there for a while. We We had that. (01:20:53) >> But it's still, I mean, 10 even with all (01:20:54) kinds of help. 10 and and with potential (01:20:57) extra challenges with behavior stuff or (01:20:59) whatever if there was some woundedness (01:21:01) in some of the kids' backgrounds. It's a (01:21:03) it's you were very generous. (01:21:05) >> You can't worry about (01:21:08) what's what's the word I'm looking for (01:21:09) here, Laya? You you can't worry about (01:21:11) something gone wrong. (01:21:13) >> You got to go, okay, this is this is the (01:21:15) way it is. Uh and yes, I' I've had some (01:21:18) kids get in some trouble. Yes, I have (01:21:20) some serious trouble. All right. So, (01:21:23) we're there to love them. We're there to (01:21:26) to always be open to them. But at the (01:21:30) same time, okay, I'll share with you (01:21:32) something very very personal. Two of my (01:21:34) sons I had to ask to leave the house. (01:21:38) >> How old were they? (01:21:39) >> 18 and 19. (01:21:42) And I always wondered if I could do that (01:21:43) because many parents can't do that. Many (01:21:45) parents live with kids who are (01:21:47) disrespectful, uncooperative, (01:21:49) unpleasant, even violent. But they will (01:21:51) not set a rule that you have to (01:21:54) cooperate or you can't live here because (01:21:55) they're afraid. What will happen? Where (01:21:58) will he go? Will he crash and burn? I (01:21:59) couldn't live with myself if he does (01:22:01) anything to harm himself or somebody (01:22:02) else. I knew that for those boys at that (01:22:06) time, given what they did, (01:22:09) I would be hurting them if I said, (01:22:12) "Well, you can continue to live here (01:22:13) under those circumstances." (01:22:15) >> Because they weren't respecting the (01:22:16) rules of the home or the the (01:22:18) >> And they were younger siblings. (01:22:19) >> Yep. Now, fortunately, those boys now (01:22:22) are grown and and we have a very tight, (01:22:23) close relationship. But at the time, and (01:22:27) my wife agreed we had to do that. (01:22:29) >> What did they do to get jobs and just go (01:22:32) rent a room? (01:22:33) >> My one son was 19. He said, "Where am I (01:22:36) going to go?" I said, "Son, you got a (01:22:38) car?" (01:22:40) >> Wow. (01:22:41) >> So, he tough love. And And was it bad? I (01:22:43) mean, was he being really disrespectful (01:22:44) or just not? (01:22:46) >> He had he had done something wrong and (01:22:49) we had to we had to stand our ground. (01:22:54) >> And he he ended up living with a friend (01:22:56) and right now he's in his 30s and he's a (01:22:58) fine young man. The other one I put in a (01:23:01) homeless shelter. Wow. He called me that (01:23:04) night. He said, "Dad, dad, dad, dad, you (01:23:06) got to get me out of here." I said, (01:23:07) "James," I said, "I tried to tell you, (01:23:10) son." Now, obviously, we helped him. We (01:23:13) set him up in an apartment and we we got (01:23:14) him help. We didn't abandon him. I'm not (01:23:16) going to go, "You're on your own kid. (01:23:17) You're on the street. You're in the (01:23:18) gutter." No, we're not going to do that. (01:23:20) But yet at the same time, given what he (01:23:22) did repeatedly now, we're not talking, (01:23:25) okay, he screwed up once. (01:23:26) >> Sure. (01:23:27) >> No, it was something that made it clear (01:23:28) he's like, you know, he thinks he's 18. (01:23:31) He can do whatever he want. (01:23:32) >> He wasn't learning his lesson and he was (01:23:33) he was freeloading. (01:23:34) >> Yeah. So, at that point, now he's a (01:23:36) very, again, a very nice young man. Now, (01:23:39) I'm curious. Not that it matters in one (01:23:42) sense, but if I were to ask him, and (01:23:43) then this is personal. We're getting all (01:23:45) personal here, but (01:23:45) >> I'll tell you what he was going to say. (01:23:46) >> Yeah. What would he say? (01:23:48) >> Both of them understand it now. They've (01:23:51) said it. They said, "Dad, I didn't get (01:23:53) it then. I get it now. And my one son is (01:23:57) very loving toward us." Very. Both of (01:23:58) them actually are very, very loving (01:24:00) toward us. Now, I'm not saying they're (01:24:02) run their lives as as I would like them (01:24:04) to run their lives because I think their (01:24:06) attachment to religion is kind of just (01:24:08) like a thread, but at the same time, you (01:24:11) know, they got their mother praying for (01:24:12) them. And I try not to pray for him (01:24:14) because I don't want to counteract her (01:24:15) prayers, you know. So, uh, at the same (01:24:20) time, you you you watch them and you and (01:24:22) you see the things start to sink in. My (01:24:24) my son said to me recently, he said, (01:24:25) "Dad, (01:24:27) when we were growing up, I didn't I (01:24:30) didn't get all the stuff that my friends (01:24:32) had." (01:24:35) And I thought it was because you (01:24:36) couldn't afford it cuz there were so (01:24:38) many of us. He said, "I realize now (01:24:41) that's not why, is it, Dad?" I said, (01:24:42) "No, Pety, it's not." He said, "You (01:24:45) could afford it. You just didn't want to (01:24:46) spoil us that way." I said, "Yeah, I (01:24:49) hope it worked. We had three bikes for (01:24:52) 10 kids. (01:24:54) So, (01:24:55) >> and they shared (01:24:55) >> they had to share the bike. (01:24:57) >> Wow. Do you looking back on your own (01:24:59) parenting, is there anything that you (01:25:01) would change? (01:25:04) >> As I get older, (01:25:07) my greatest gratitude (01:25:09) is that I was born where I was at the (01:25:12) time where I was to the people I was. I (01:25:16) had no choice in that, Laya. I could (01:25:18) have been born anywhere else in this (01:25:20) world at any other time. (01:25:23) And had I not had I not been born where (01:25:25) I was, I I I wouldn't have known the (01:25:27) faith. I I wouldn't have been told. If (01:25:29) you think about the odds, I mean, (01:25:31) they're less than they're minuscule that (01:25:34) I'm going to grow up in a family who (01:25:36) taught me the faith. Now, if I look at (01:25:37) my mom and dad and I say, well, you (01:25:38) know, dad did this or mom did that or I (01:25:41) didn't like when they did this. So what? (01:25:44) That's my mom and dad. (01:25:46) They gave me life and they tried their (01:25:49) best. (01:25:51) I get so many adult kids now who write (01:25:54) their parents off because they look at (01:25:56) the way their parents raised them and (01:25:57) say, "Well, I didn't like that. Well, (01:25:59) you could have done that different. (01:26:02) I don't really need to be around you (01:26:03) anymore." And you know, one of the great (01:26:06) tragedies (01:26:08) often times some therapist told him to (01:26:10) do it. (01:26:12) Can't tell you how often I hear that (01:26:14) where the therapist says, "Your parents (01:26:16) sound like they're toxic. (01:26:19) You need to set boundaries. You need to (01:26:21) sever the relationship until you feel (01:26:23) confident enough to be able to deal with (01:26:26) their pathology." (01:26:28) And the parents don't have any (01:26:29) pathology. They were people like you and (01:26:31) me trying to raise great kids. (01:26:34) And the kids look back on them and say, (01:26:35) "Yeah, well, I don't like the way I was (01:26:37) raised." (01:26:38) You know, Laya, even if I didn't like (01:26:40) the way I was raised, I was given enough (01:26:43) that allowed me to have the life I have. (01:26:47) And I got to say, my parents had a big (01:26:49) part in that. (01:26:50) >> And when you look at your your (01:26:52) upbringing of your kids, so you wouldn't (01:26:54) change your childhood because you're (01:26:56) you're grateful, which is a beautiful (01:26:57) posture. Oh my gosh, that's the honestly (01:27:00) that's if you want to have a successful (01:27:02) future, be grateful for the road that (01:27:04) led brought you here. and you know (01:27:06) instead of fighting it for your (01:27:08) parenting now that you are where you are (01:27:11) looking back you've written your 20 (01:27:12) books you've been in practice for now (01:27:13) you know dozens of years at this point (01:27:15) how many years total I'm sorry I know (01:27:17) off the top of my my head here you're 40 (01:27:19) plus years is there anything you and (01:27:20) your wife would change in the parenting (01:27:21) of your 10 kids (01:27:23) >> boy I got asked that once by a guy named (01:27:25) Matt Fred he said (01:27:26) >> oh really Matt you'd beat me to it (01:27:28) >> and he said in that accent I always tell (01:27:30) him I said Matt you sound smart cuz you (01:27:31) got that accent that accent makes you (01:27:33) sound 12 yeah IQ points sounds and is (01:27:35) smart. (01:27:36) >> Hello. And Matt said, "You have any (01:27:38) regrets?" And I said something that made (01:27:39) him mad. I said, "I don't think so." How (01:27:43) could you not have regrets? And I said, (01:27:45) "Well, you know, Matt, if you're saying (01:27:48) that I I deliberately did something that (01:27:51) I knew was going to be bad for my kids, (01:27:53) that would be a regret. But if you're (01:27:55) saying in my humanness, (01:27:58) I did things that looking back on it, I (01:28:00) go, you know, I wish I had more (01:28:02) information. And I think I would have (01:28:03) done different then. No. But here's a (01:28:06) regret I do have. (01:28:08) Two things actually. Two things. (01:28:10) >> Did you tell Matt this or is this (01:28:11) exclusive for the Lilaya Rose Show? (01:28:13) >> Well, he came to me later and he said, (01:28:16) >> we love Matt Fred here. (01:28:17) >> I'm going to work on the accent then if (01:28:18) you think (01:28:19) >> we're doing we're now I'm interviewing (01:28:20) Matt Fred. Let's go. (01:28:23) >> He came to me later and he said, "I now (01:28:25) understand what you were saying." Cuz (01:28:27) his kids got older. (01:28:28) >> Oh. So, was he was this an interview you (01:28:30) did with him or he was talking to you (01:28:31) privately? We were at a conference (01:28:32) together and he privately said to me, (01:28:34) "Do you have any regrets?" I went, "No, (01:28:36) we're hearing this." (01:28:37) >> Oh man. He got upset. (01:28:39) >> He said, "How could you not have any (01:28:40) regrets?" I was implying know that I was (01:28:42) perfect. I said, "No, no, depends how (01:28:44) you define regret." But I do have a (01:28:46) couple that I look back on. One, (01:28:50) I would have explained the faith better (01:28:52) to my kids. (01:28:54) >> We live in a culture that says, "Why? (01:28:57) I'm not going to believe this just (01:28:58) because the church says it, just because (01:29:00) dad says it. Dad, why does the church (01:29:03) have these moral perspectives? I want to (01:29:05) know. Now, I explained a lot, but I (01:29:07) would have done more. That's one. (01:29:10) This is This is simple. (01:29:13) When I said my prayers at night, I (01:29:15) always got in bed and I had the covers (01:29:17) over me and my kids couldn't tell if I (01:29:18) was sleeping or praying. (01:29:20) If I had it to do over again, I would (01:29:22) kneel by my bedside so that my kids (01:29:24) could see their old man saying his (01:29:27) prayers. That that indulable image of (01:29:29) this guy kneeling by the bed saying his (01:29:33) prayers. I would change I would change (01:29:35) that. (01:29:36) >> Did you pray together as a family? (01:29:38) >> Yes. And that's why we had 10 because (01:29:40) the rosary the decade is 10. (01:29:42) >> Perfect. (01:29:43) >> So that's right. Now the girls would get (01:29:45) on me cuz I'd lose track. I'd just I'd (01:29:47) drift off during the rosary, you know. (01:29:49) I'd lose track and I'd go, "Uh, they go, (01:29:52) "Dad," I go, "Oh, okay. Hail Mary, Dad, (01:29:54) it's a glory be." Oh, okay. I I knew (01:29:57) that. I just wanted to see if you were (01:29:58) paying attention. (01:30:00) I screwed up the rosary. I can't count (01:30:02) how many times. (01:30:04) >> It's always scary when I'm praying the (01:30:05) rosary with someone else, you know, (01:30:06) especially if it's a not so personal, (01:30:08) like more professional. I'm like, I'm (01:30:09) going to forget my own words. It's like (01:30:11) you get self-conscious, you know? But, (01:30:13) um, Mother Mary is so patient with us. (01:30:15) >> Just pray it in Aramaic. That really (01:30:17) interest There you go. Just do the just (01:30:18) do the original tongue easier to do. (01:30:20) Yeah. Um, I got to ask you, you were (01:30:23) talking just a few minutes ago about (01:30:26) this trend of adult children rejecting (01:30:29) their parents. And I had on Noel Miring (01:30:32) on the show and she's actually working (01:30:33) on a book about this trend where because (01:30:36) of political or ideological differences (01:30:38) and sometimes accusations of childhood (01:30:40) neglect or abuse which those can be (01:30:42) really significant and legitimate of (01:30:44) course uh parents are increasingly (01:30:47) getting iced out by their children and (01:30:49) sometimes it's vice versa but it's (01:30:50) mostly the children vicing up the icing (01:30:51) out the parents. Um but I want to ask (01:30:54) you (01:30:55) in some cases it's legit. In some cases, (01:31:00) you could like like I I'm thinking of a (01:31:02) case right now um semi-personal somebody (01:31:04) that I know, parent, single dad (01:31:08) involved in really bad stuff, very (01:31:10) abusive behaviors. They are doing a bit (01:31:13) of an ice. They're saying we got to take (01:31:14) a pause on this one because it's not (01:31:16) good for the grandkids. and (01:31:19) but somebody might hear of that story, I (01:31:21) don't know, and be like, "Oh, it's the (01:31:22) toxic trend of, you know, getting rid of (01:31:23) your your, you know, your sweet poor old (01:31:25) parents who are not perfect, but you (01:31:27) know, let's just be more nice to them." (01:31:29) So, how do you draw those lines? (01:31:33) >> I had a lady email me once and she said, (01:31:35) "I don't appreciate (01:31:38) you talking about how we're writing off (01:31:39) our parents. If you knew some of the (01:31:42) things my father did, (01:31:44) you'd realize we should have written him (01:31:46) off. (01:31:47) And I clarified, I said, "I'm not (01:31:49) talking about pathology (01:31:51) in these homes." What's an example of (01:31:54) that? (01:31:54) >> Abuse, neglect, alcoholism, just just (01:31:56) just (01:31:57) >> serious stuff. (01:31:58) >> Serious stuff. Well, what is serious (01:32:00) stuff? Well, for the most part, you can (01:32:02) make the gauge. I'm talking about, I (01:32:05) believe, the much more common situation (01:32:08) of people who did their best or or (01:32:15) they weren't easy to live with. I mean, (01:32:16) you could have parents who aren't easy (01:32:17) to live with. You could have a nagging (01:32:19) mom. You could have a mom who's put you (01:32:21) down. You could have a lot of these (01:32:22) things, (01:32:24) but that is that enough reason to say, (01:32:26) especially if you're a Christian, (01:32:29) I want no more. (01:32:30) >> She's a narcissist. Oh, that (01:32:32) >> she never has anything that she's (01:32:33) hyperritical. That that goes up there (01:32:35) with strong willed. Narcissist is (01:32:38) horridly overused. It basically means (01:32:40) selfcenter. (01:32:40) >> Everyone's a narcissist. (01:32:41) >> Everybody's a narcissist. That's right. (01:32:43) >> And there are maybe a lot of narcissists (01:32:44) today, too. But (01:32:45) >> if you read the clinical definition of (01:32:48) narcissist, it's a very serious (01:32:50) personality disorder. A narcissist is (01:32:53) not someone who is difficult for me to (01:32:55) get along with. A narcissist is someone (01:32:57) who just can't sustain a relationship (01:32:59) with anybody. (01:33:01) Okay? But that said, these are parents (01:33:04) who they either tried or they weren't (01:33:07) perfect or or even in fact they were (01:33:10) difficult. (01:33:13) Does that justify saying get out of my (01:33:16) life? That's the point I'm making. And (01:33:20) here's something I said once on the (01:33:22) radio. (01:33:24) I said that parents (01:33:28) were worried about being psychologically (01:33:29) incorrect with their children and that (01:33:32) affected their parenting. They were (01:33:34) insecure. They were not sure themselves. (01:33:35) I said, "What has happened now is that (01:33:38) that generation that was raised, the (01:33:40) young adults, now are turning on their (01:33:43) parents and saying, (01:33:45) "You weren't psychologically correct, so (01:33:48) I want you out of my life." I said, (01:33:50) "Boy, did that come back to bite you." (01:33:52) That is yeah the modern era where we (01:33:55) have psycholog psychologized everything (01:33:59) >> and there's no space for I think grace (01:34:01) and mistake and everything else. (01:34:04) >> But but back to something you just said (01:34:05) uh they weren't perfect or they were (01:34:07) really hard to deal with. At what point (01:34:09) do you make the analysis of okay this is (01:34:13) borderline nar this is like like there's (01:34:15) a 10 list of the narcissists like they (01:34:17) you know everything comes back to them. (01:34:19) they can't ever admit responsibility or (01:34:21) what whatever the list of. They don't (01:34:22) show empathy, right? They can be hyper (01:34:24) charming and then all of a sudden like (01:34:26) turn on you on a dime. Well, maybe (01:34:28) that's more BPD or whatever the list is, (01:34:30) right? And you're like, "Oh, well, check (01:34:32) check." Oh, sometimes they (01:34:33) >> go to the internet and it'll tell you. (01:34:35) >> Well, yeah, but but they're really, you (01:34:37) know, they're they're (01:34:39) How do you would you just say at that (01:34:40) point you got to pray about it? talk to (01:34:42) a good, you know, Christian advisor (01:34:44) who's not some woke therapist who's (01:34:46) going to just tell you to go burn (01:34:47) bridges and, you know, divorce yourself (01:34:50) from your family, etc. And then if it's (01:34:52) a real serious issue, yeah, treat it (01:34:55) like a serious issue. But generally (01:34:57) speaking, we are too much in the (01:34:58) direction as a culture of just pathizing (01:35:01) everything. It's more common for adults, (01:35:04) young adults, or even middle-aged adults (01:35:06) who've written off their parents to do (01:35:08) so because of words. (01:35:12) My mom's critical. My dad's opinionated. (01:35:17) >> They talk politics. I don't like their (01:35:18) polit politics or they oppose my LGBT (01:35:21) stuff. (01:35:21) >> It's words. It is words. (01:35:23) >> And because of that, therefore, I don't (01:35:25) want to be around my mother. I mean, (01:35:27) she's so difficult. She says things and (01:35:29) she critiques my parenting and you know (01:35:31) I've had it. (01:35:34) Is she punching you in the face? Well, (01:35:36) no. Well, she setting fire to your (01:35:39) house. No. What is it then? I stuff she (01:35:43) says. (01:35:45) Okay. Now, I've written books on this on (01:35:47) how to get along with people. (01:35:49) >> I was going to ask you about that book. (01:35:50) Actually, that's coming right up. (01:35:53) Because what we do in relationships is (01:35:56) that I don't like the way you talk. I (01:35:59) don't like the things you say. (01:36:01) >> Laya, you know, the most common question (01:36:03) I now get as a psychologist, (01:36:05) >> what (01:36:06) >> would you please tell me how to make (01:36:08) somebody else be different? (01:36:11) >> Classic. (01:36:11) >> It is a classic. And then if my mother (01:36:13) or my mother, how do I make them not be (01:36:16) like that? (01:36:16) >> Yeah. Wow. (01:36:17) >> And I say, I I have a hard enough time (01:36:19) making you not be like that. Now you're (01:36:20) removing it a person. And that's part (01:36:23) that's part of the big reason why these (01:36:25) these adults turn on their kids. I don't (01:36:27) like what you say. I don't like how you (01:36:29) say it. I don't like that you put me (01:36:31) down. I don't like you're manipulative. (01:36:32) I don't like that you're critical. I (01:36:34) don't like that you brag. I don't like (01:36:35) that you disagree with me. And it's (01:36:37) like, you know what? I shouldn't have to (01:36:39) put up with that. And I always say, (01:36:41) well, if you're a Christian, you do have (01:36:43) to put up with it. And secondly, this is (01:36:45) not the lady who lives down the street (01:36:47) six doors. You can drive by her house (01:36:49) and just go like this. (01:36:52) This is your mom. (01:36:54) >> Only got one. (01:36:55) >> This is your brother. This is your (01:36:57) father-in-law. This is this this is your (01:37:00) wife's dad. It behooves you to figure (01:37:03) out how to let some of this stuff go in (01:37:05) one ear and out the other because (01:37:07) they're not going to change. (01:37:09) >> This book is very special. And we have I (01:37:11) have all these notes of we got to get (01:37:12) into this book at least a little bit if (01:37:13) that's okay. How to deal with difficult (01:37:15) people. (01:37:16) >> Yeah. How to get along with almost (01:37:18) everybody. Notice the key almost. (01:37:21) Because you can't get along with (01:37:22) everybody. If if they don't want to get (01:37:23) along with you, no matter what you do, (01:37:27) forget it. It's not going to happen. If (01:37:29) your mother says, "I don't want to have (01:37:31) any part of you." Then no matter what (01:37:34) you do, no matter how kind you are, no (01:37:36) matter how much you pray for her, no (01:37:37) matter what you do, if she remains (01:37:40) rigid, you can't do anything about it. (01:37:42) However, (01:37:44) we can go a long way in getting along (01:37:47) better with people. Now, there's a (01:37:48) couple things that are premises in the (01:37:50) book. One, (01:37:53) look at yourself. (01:37:57) I always I always say, "Well, that's (01:37:59) >> Yeah, it's easier to look at other (01:38:00) people." (01:38:00) >> Yes, it is. That's right. I look out (01:38:02) this way. That's a difficult person. (01:38:04) Well, she's difficult. (01:38:07) I've never had anybody say, you know, I (01:38:09) think I'm difficult. (01:38:11) >> I think I need to work on me because I (01:38:12) can be difficult. I can be opinionated. (01:38:14) I can be crusty. (01:38:16) That could be obnoxious. (01:38:18) No. So, we need to start looking at (01:38:19) ourselves. Exactly. That's first thing. (01:38:22) >> Second thing is, (01:38:24) >> let's say that you decide you want to (01:38:27) raise your kids a certain way. (01:38:29) >> And your mother-in-law, and by the way, (01:38:30) the the the number one point of friction (01:38:32) in generations is mother-in-law, (01:38:34) daughter-in-law. That's the most common (01:38:35) one. Okay? And your mother-in-law just (01:38:38) really doesn't agree with what you're (01:38:39) doing here, Laya. And she's going to (01:38:41) she's going to give you some digs. (01:38:44) And you've been married how long? (01:38:46) >> Seven years. (01:38:47) >> Okay. Well, this is not your (01:38:48) mother-in-law, but this is a (01:38:49) hypothetical. (01:38:50) >> She's I got I kind of lucked out. I (01:38:51) mean, sweetheart, she has her own (01:38:52) personality, her own thing, but she's (01:38:54) lovely. And you know, she (01:38:55) >> But let's say she's not. We got to use (01:38:57) We got to use this for the show. (01:38:59) >> So, in this seven years, if you were to (01:39:01) count it, she's made 264 (01:39:05) snarky remarks about your motherhood and (01:39:08) your parenting. (01:39:09) And if I say to you, Lla, (01:39:12) does 264 bother you as much as number (01:39:15) 12? (01:39:17) You'd probably say yes. Why is that? (01:39:21) Because the accumulative effect I'm (01:39:24) getting tired of it. It's building up. (01:39:26) Here's one technique on getting along (01:39:28) better with other people. (01:39:31) Drop your expectations. (01:39:33) You know she's like this. you got 264 (01:39:36) pieces of evidence that she can do this, (01:39:39) chances are she's probably going to do (01:39:41) another 264 the next 7 years. So, if you (01:39:44) keep upsetting yourself over these (01:39:46) snarky remarks instead of saying to (01:39:48) yourself, "Well, that's her. That's what (01:39:51) she does. Not very nice about it, and (01:39:53) she's got to be unhappy in her own skin, (01:39:55) but okay, I'm not going to be as upset (01:39:58) because this is nothing new. (01:40:01) This is the same old same old. Why am I (01:40:05) distressing myself at 264 like I did at (01:40:09) seven? Seven may still have been well I (01:40:12) hope she changes. 264 not likely. (01:40:17) That sounds like such a obvious good (01:40:20) principle. If something's annoying you (01:40:22) and but this is a person that you're not (01:40:24) going to like ice out, you just accept (01:40:26) it and you put your attention and focus (01:40:29) elsewhere and you just learn. and you (01:40:30) get a thicker skin basically. (01:40:33) However, I think about in a marriage as (01:40:35) an example, maybe this is a little (01:40:37) different. You want to be able to share (01:40:39) vulnerably, oh, this is affecting me (01:40:40) this way. You want to create as much (01:40:43) harmony as possible. You want to be (01:40:45) authentic and not pretend like (01:40:46) something's not a big deal when it does (01:40:48) feel like a big deal to you, right? (01:40:50) >> So, how do you weigh all that? (01:40:51) >> But we're not saying you don't bring it (01:40:53) up. We're not saying you don't talk (01:40:54) about it. And it may have been through (01:40:57) snark remark number one through 12. You (01:40:59) did try to say something to your (01:41:00) mother-in-law and you got nowhere (01:41:02) because rarely are people going to go, (01:41:07) Laya, you're right. I do do that, don't (01:41:09) I? Well, I need to control myself better (01:41:13) for the sake of our relationship. A (01:41:15) difficult person doesn't know they're (01:41:17) difficult. If they knew they were (01:41:19) difficult, they wouldn't be as (01:41:20) difficult. So, that's the first thing. (01:41:22) Second thing in a marriage, (01:41:24) the closer you are to somebody, the more (01:41:26) time you spend around them, the more (01:41:28) likely things are going to happen that (01:41:30) irritate you, that bothers you. Wives (01:41:33) will say to me, "My husband's so (01:41:35) critical. He's just critical." And I've (01:41:38) told him how I feel, how it hurts, and (01:41:40) how it bothers me, but he doesn't seem (01:41:42) to care. He just kind of does it. I say, (01:41:46) "Well, we got a couple things here. one, (01:41:48) if he's not going to stop, and obviously (01:41:51) you don't want to leave the relationship (01:41:53) because there's a lot there that's of (01:41:54) value, (01:41:56) then you're going to have to let his (01:41:58) critical words start to bounce off of (01:41:59) you, and you're going to have to (01:42:01) interpret them as he's insecure. (01:42:06) He's not superior. Anybody that felt (01:42:09) self-confident wouldn't wouldn't have to (01:42:10) put me down like that, obviously, (01:42:13) because he doesn't apologize ever. (01:42:16) That's insecurity. That's not (01:42:17) superiority. He doesn't think he's (01:42:19) better than me. He's afraid to (01:42:21) apologize. You got to start to (01:42:23) reinterpret (01:42:25) >> what they're doing. (01:42:25) >> I think in that case, I'm playing with (01:42:27) that one for a minute because I've heard (01:42:28) these cases. It's like, okay, no, that's (01:42:30) emotional abuse. That's emotional abuse. (01:42:32) And maybe I should leave this marriage. (01:42:35) You know, maybe I won't remarry because (01:42:37) of my faith, but I, you know, this is (01:42:39) like this is like at what point is it (01:42:41) this is a difficult person. And this is, (01:42:43) by the way, this is the modern crisis, (01:42:44) right? You know, you you've sat in the (01:42:46) chair and you've heard all the stories (01:42:49) what people thought was normal behavior (01:42:51) 30 years ago even. Oh, they're just a (01:42:53) difficult person. That's the way they (01:42:55) are. Haha, that's something. All right, (01:42:56) we love them anyway. Now they're like, (01:42:58) oh, they are yeah, the narcissist. They (01:43:00) are the gaslighter, whatever. They're (01:43:02) abusive. (01:43:04) >> And some people are blowing up their (01:43:06) lives over that. They're leaving their (01:43:08) marriages. (01:43:10) You know, they're icing out their (01:43:11) parents in some cases. One of the early (01:43:14) chapters of that book (01:43:16) said, "Watch your language." And I (01:43:19) picked out three words that can make you (01:43:22) leave a relationship prematurely. (01:43:26) Narcissist. (01:43:27) If somebody's a narcissist, you're (01:43:29) basically saying they're unreachable, (01:43:31) that this is it. They are just so flawed (01:43:33) that I can't get along with them. Toxic. (01:43:37) That's a terrible word. It's poisonous. (01:43:39) I mean, I could see that he's obnoxious (01:43:42) or difficult, unpleasant, toxic. Oh my (01:43:46) gosh, that the implication there once (01:43:48) again is he he is hurting me terribly, (01:43:51) but here's where I got in trouble on the (01:43:53) radio once. (01:43:55) Lady called in and said, "I'm tired of (01:43:57) being emotionally abused by my husband. (01:44:00) What does he do?" She told me. I said, (01:44:02) "Yeah, it sounds pretty nasty." I said, (01:44:05) "But you understand that you have great (01:44:08) control (01:44:09) over whether it's emotional abuse or not (01:44:13) because it has to get to you. You have (01:44:17) to interpret it a certain way. (01:44:21) He shouldn't do this. I don't do that to (01:44:24) him. He's putting me down. (01:44:27) I didn't ask for this in a husband. I (01:44:30) deserve a better marriage." Now, all of (01:44:32) those things may be true, but if you (01:44:34) absorb them, you're going to feel (01:44:36) abused. I said, the word abuse used to (01:44:39) be pretty serious, physically, sexual. (01:44:43) Once we moved it into emotional (01:44:45) territory, now it's fuzzy. Now, it's (01:44:48) fuzzy. For for you to emotionally abuse (01:44:50) me, Laya, (01:44:52) in some respects, I have to let you. You (01:44:56) can say whatever you want about me (01:44:57) anytime, anywhere. You can go public (01:45:00) with it. (01:45:01) But my only concern is, is what she said (01:45:06) true? (01:45:07) If it's not, if I use my best judgment, (01:45:09) say it's not true what she accused me (01:45:11) of, then I don't have to be emotionally (01:45:14) abused. I can be hurt. I can wish you (01:45:16) didn't say it. I can feel bad. But to (01:45:20) take it into emotional abuse gives me a (01:45:24) rationale. (01:45:26) I don't want to be married to her. (01:45:29) I don't want to be around my brother (01:45:30) anymore. (01:45:32) I don't want to be part of this (01:45:33) relationship. I don't want to go to that (01:45:35) church because I think that priest is (01:45:37) emotionally abusive when he says stuff (01:45:39) from the pulpit. (01:45:41) That's what happens. (01:45:43) >> Is there ever such a thing in your view (01:45:45) then as emotional abuse in marriage? (01:45:48) That that would mean that there should (01:45:51) be a separation. (01:45:53) >> There can certainly be viciousness. I (01:45:54) mean, I'm not I'm not I mean, I see all (01:45:56) kinds of nonsense in marriages, but (01:45:59) here's an interesting statistic. (01:46:02) The majority of marriages break up not (01:46:06) because there's pathology or actual (01:46:08) abuse. It's because I really don't like (01:46:11) you anymore. (01:46:12) >> Right? (01:46:12) >> I don't want to be around you anymore. (01:46:15) >> You're unpleasant. (01:46:16) >> You have fell out of love. We fell out (01:46:18) of love. That's the number one reason. (01:46:20) So, I suppose you could make a case that (01:46:23) somebody can be so nasty, so vicious in (01:46:26) their remarks that you're saying to (01:46:28) yourself, I I I can't I can't live with (01:46:31) this, I suppose. But my point is, what (01:46:35) is now covered under the umbrella of (01:46:38) emotional abuse is often times just (01:46:41) nasty stuff that we absorb and it gets (01:46:45) to us. You know, people will say, "You (01:46:47) know what my mother said really hurt (01:46:49) me?" (01:46:50) And I'll say, "How did it do that?" (01:46:53) Well, mothers are not supposed to say (01:46:55) those kinds of things to their daughter. (01:46:57) I go, "Well, your mother did." "Yeah, (01:46:58) but she's not supposed to." "Yeah, I (01:47:01) agree. She's not supposed to, but she (01:47:03) did. So, how much are you going to be (01:47:05) hurt by it?" In other We (01:47:07) >> We We don't control our own reaction. (01:47:10) You're in the public sphere (01:47:12) >> somewhat. I'm in the public sphere. (01:47:15) Have you gotten nasty emails? (01:47:16) >> Oh, we get so much. (01:47:18) >> Yes, exactly. (01:47:19) >> Oh, so much hate, (01:47:21) >> right? (01:47:22) >> A lot lot more love. A lot more love. (01:47:24) But there's a lot (01:47:24) >> nasty stuff. (01:47:26) >> Now, do you go home and cry yourself to (01:47:29) sleep? (01:47:30) >> No. (01:47:30) >> Right. Because you don't allow it to be (01:47:33) absorbed. Now, one could say, "Yeah, but (01:47:36) those are strangers. This is my It's not (01:47:38) my mother. It's not my brother." That's (01:47:40) true, but there's still a parallel there (01:47:43) because you're still controlling how (01:47:44) upset you're going to be. (01:47:47) I've seen people get out of this I've (01:47:48) seen people get out of this business (01:47:50) because they can't take those they can't (01:47:52) take those. (01:47:52) >> And and to be clear there some sometimes (01:47:54) if it's especially personal nasty and (01:47:57) it's coming more from friendly fire cuz (01:47:59) that sometimes happens, right? That can (01:48:02) hurt a little bit, especially if it's (01:48:03) someone that you know that you think (01:48:05) would be your friend. And so that's (01:48:07) where it's closer to your expectation. (01:48:09) See, I expect they wouldn't do this. (01:48:11) >> Right. Right. (01:48:12) >> See, I expect this from my mother cuz (01:48:14) she's made 264 snarky remarks. So my (01:48:17) expectation should be down here. It (01:48:18) shouldn't be up here. (01:48:19) >> Or I expect you'll be as kind as I am. (01:48:21) >> There it is. I don't do that to you. I (01:48:23) call it the law of social reciprocity. (01:48:26) >> If I teach you a certain way, you should (01:48:29) treat me a certain way. It's kind of a (01:48:31) It's kind of a perversion of the golden (01:48:33) rule. (01:48:34) If I do to you well, then you do to me (01:48:38) well. Right? (01:48:39) >> Oh, that ain't that's not a Christian (01:48:41) rule. I'm I'm obliged to do to you well, (01:48:44) no matter how you do to me. (01:48:45) >> And it's like our Lord says, even the (01:48:47) Gentiles are kind to their children, (01:48:49) right? But if you are a Christian, how (01:48:50) much more are you supposed to be kind to (01:48:52) not just your brother, but the stranger (01:48:54) and your enemy? (01:48:55) >> I'll share with you an objection I get (01:48:56) to something that you said. You said, (01:48:59) 'Okay, you got to get better at letting (01:49:01) some of this stuff go past you. You do. (01:49:04) But then the objection is this. (01:49:07) Isn't that making you a doormat? Don't (01:49:10) you just Aren't you just kind of like (01:49:11) sitting there taking the punches against (01:49:13) the against the ropes? I said, "No, no, (01:49:15) no. It's different. (01:49:17) You're a doormat if it gets to you (01:49:20) because they control your emotions. (01:49:22) You're not a doormat if it doesn't get (01:49:24) to you. I'm not talking about swallowing (01:49:27) it and being bitter and resentful. I'm (01:49:29) talking about not swallowing it. If you (01:49:32) don't swallow it, they don't have any (01:49:34) power over you. Laya, we leave this (01:49:36) interview and I find out later you say, (01:49:39) "Grandy's a jerk. Gray is the last time (01:49:42) I'm ever going to talk to that dude." (01:49:44) Now, okay, I can say, "Well, I suppose (01:49:48) maybe I wasn't the best interview, but (01:49:50) all right, (01:49:51) >> I thought it was pretty funny." (01:49:52) >> All right, I'm going to go drive through (01:49:53) McDonald's. give me a double (01:49:54) cheeseburger. I just said, you know, I'm (01:49:56) going to move on with my life because I (01:49:58) can't absorb it. I have to say, well, is (01:50:00) it true? And even if it is, even if it (01:50:03) is, even if I blew the interview, (01:50:06) okay, I didn't mean to blow the (01:50:07) interview. It just kind of came from (01:50:09) clumsiness. (01:50:11) And and that kind of interpretation of (01:50:13) these human relations can really temper (01:50:16) this kind of I can't get along with you. (01:50:20) >> All right. I got to I got to ask though (01:50:22) because I I'm I'm just hearing the (01:50:24) voices in my head of the people in the (01:50:26) comment section right now. (01:50:27) >> I'm a psychologist. Don't tell me you're (01:50:28) hearing voices in your head. (01:50:29) >> Sometimes sometimes, you know, um but (01:50:31) these are my comment section voices and (01:50:33) and I care about my comment section very (01:50:35) much. You know, you guys, I care about (01:50:36) that comment section. So, thank you for (01:50:38) the comments that people leave. But I'm (01:50:39) thinking about and I know these cases. I (01:50:41) know I have people that I know in my (01:50:43) life that I love very much and they're (01:50:44) they've been in some of these cases. I'm (01:50:46) talking about emotional abuse now in (01:50:47) marriage is what I want to get granular (01:50:49) to. And what I've observed is often if (01:50:53) there is emotional abuse in terms of (01:50:56) just like viciousness, right? And to (01:50:57) your point, well, you can choose to (01:50:58) allow it be abuse you or not, but (01:51:01) there's often something in addition, (01:51:02) chronic infidelity. (01:51:04) >> Now you're talking pathology now. Now (01:51:06) you're drifting into pathology. (01:51:07) >> Exactly. So the the viciousness is then (01:51:09) connected to something more serious and (01:51:11) then it's different. But you're saying (01:51:13) if there's just viciousness and let's (01:51:15) say it's a bad habit of viciousness like (01:51:17) it is regular bad habit. strong word. (01:51:19) You know, a lot of people listening to (01:51:20) this go, "Viciousness is enough." Maybe (01:51:23) we we could say critical, okay, (01:51:26) >> or put down. (01:51:27) >> Well, let's just say they're actually (01:51:28) vicious. They're not cheating to their (01:51:30) knowledge. There's no other pathology (01:51:31) that they can see. They're not (01:51:32) physically or you're a waste of a wife. (01:51:35) And I think every one of our kids is (01:51:36) going to grow up polluted because of you (01:51:38) and what you did to them. That's pretty (01:51:39) rough. (01:51:40) >> Yeah. And so, would you say in a case (01:51:42) like that and and again, often that's (01:51:44) kind of be fueled by alcoholism (01:51:46) sometimes or other things. So, it's like (01:51:47) there's always going to be a coorbidity, (01:51:49) I think. But, let's just say (01:51:50) theoretically there's no comorbidity (01:51:52) because if they're an alcoholic, then (01:51:54) maybe you do need to separate if they're (01:51:55) getting dangerous, right? (01:51:56) >> Dangerous. Yeah. (01:51:57) >> Um, but uh but if they're just vicious (01:51:59) regularly and it's like a thing and they (01:52:01) I'm thinking about one case in (01:52:02) particular right now and there's just (01:52:03) there's no infidelity, there's no (01:52:05) alcoholism, there's no addiction, (01:52:07) there's no neglect of the children or (01:52:08) something like this. Um, but there's (01:52:10) just chronic viciousness. (01:52:12) >> You got several factors at play. One is (01:52:15) the person a Catholic. So the Catholic (01:52:18) would say that that marriage is (01:52:19) indeoluble until they take a look at it (01:52:21) back at the beginning. So that's one. (01:52:24) All right. So that at this point that (01:52:27) kind of verbal cruelty might not be a (01:52:30) reason to separate this marriage. Okay, (01:52:32) that's one big one. The children. (01:52:36) Okay. If you separate and I can't tell (01:52:39) you how much I see this in the office, (01:52:43) >> I've lost control on how my kids are (01:52:44) being raised. (01:52:46) >> Yeah. (01:52:46) >> The other part of the time they're over (01:52:48) there and that person doesn't take them (01:52:49) to church. That person lets them watch (01:52:51) anything. That person is now with a (01:52:52) girlfriend who has two other kids and (01:52:54) those two other kids are obnoxious and I (01:52:56) worry about my kids' safety. Not to (01:52:57) mention their sexual safety. There's a (01:52:59) factor there. So, you weigh that. You (01:53:02) say, "Okay, this is this is rough on (01:53:03) me." But the alternative (01:53:07) may be even rougher. There was a survey (01:53:09) done years ago. What they did is they (01:53:12) asked people. (01:53:14) Are you discontent in your marriage? Are (01:53:16) you unhappy in your marriage? (01:53:19) Yes. Yes. Very much so. And they (01:53:22) followed up those who stayed in the (01:53:23) marriage anyway and those who divorced. (01:53:26) And they asked him 5 years later, (01:53:30) "Are you more content now or less?" The (01:53:34) ones who stayed in the marriage (01:53:35) generally said things got better. (01:53:37) >> Wow. (01:53:38) >> The ones who didn't said it's as bad or (01:53:42) worse (01:53:45) because of the complications of the (01:53:46) divorce. (01:53:48) There is no part of psychology that has (01:53:52) more research support that says divorce (01:53:55) is bad for kids. None. Thousands of (01:53:58) studies. Now again, I know there are (01:54:01) people listening to this go, "But you (01:54:02) don't understand. My spouse left me. I (01:54:04) didn't want the divorce. My spouse left (01:54:05) me. That's true. That's tragic. And (01:54:08) there are some very heroic single (01:54:10) parents out there. No question about (01:54:12) that. No question. Absolutely. They're (01:54:15) victims. (01:54:16) >> Men and women. (01:54:17) >> One of the saddest things I see in my (01:54:18) office. A guy will be sitting there and (01:54:20) he converted to Catholicism for his (01:54:22) wife's sake. Now they have five kids. (01:54:24) He's leaving. He met somebody at work. (01:54:28) He's leaving. And he says, "I never (01:54:31) bought into this Catholic thing anyway. (01:54:33) I just kind of did it and went along and (01:54:36) went through the motions." She's (01:54:37) brokenhearted. (01:54:39) And I say to him, I I can't stop him cuz (01:54:41) he has no moral compunction about this. (01:54:43) But I said, "Do you kind of understand (01:54:45) what you're opening up?" Your daughter, (01:54:48) how old is she? 15. She talking to you? (01:54:52) No. No. She thinks I ruined my family. (01:54:55) Okay. How about your 12-year-old son? He (01:54:59) doesn't like my he doesn't like my (01:55:01) girlfriend at all. I mean, he doesn't (01:55:02) even want to come here. He finds every (01:55:03) excuse to come here. Okay. So, in other (01:55:07) words, I point out to him, now you see (01:55:08) what you're doing jumping into this. (01:55:10) This isn't just I'm unhappy with my (01:55:12) wife. This is there's all kinds of (01:55:14) complications I can't foresee. (01:55:17) Happens a lot. (01:55:19) >> Yeah. Divorce also, I think, is a social (01:55:21) contagion. That's my observation. When (01:55:24) people are close to other people that (01:55:26) get divorced, it normalizes it more and (01:55:29) then they start to nitpick. You don't (01:55:30) have to like that. You don't have to (01:55:33) >> I had six pairs of Italian aunts and (01:55:36) uncles. (01:55:38) >> Amazing. (01:55:39) >> All of them, their marriage ended when (01:55:42) one of them died. (01:55:44) As I looked at the marriages, they (01:55:45) weren't necessarily the best. Some of (01:55:47) them, one in particular, would be looked (01:55:49) at like, whoa. If that was nowadays, (01:55:51) that marriage would have been long over. (01:55:54) But every single one of them endured to (01:55:56) death. (01:55:56) >> Wow. (01:55:57) >> And every single one of them was sad (01:55:59) when their partner died. (01:56:00) >> Oh, man. (01:56:03) >> You know what the divorce rate was in (01:56:05) 1960? (01:56:06) >> Tell me. (01:56:07) >> 5%. (01:56:08) >> Wow. (01:56:08) >> 5%. Have people changed that much? Have (01:56:11) you Have you basically said, "No, in (01:56:13) 1960 people were just a lot nicer. (01:56:16) Maybe the culture was a little more (01:56:17) moral, but but the human nature doesn't (01:56:19) change. And I think it's as you say, (01:56:21) it's just been this whole cultural shift (01:56:23) of you don't have to put up with that. (01:56:28) >> And I think people then share the (01:56:30) stories like on social media or they (01:56:32) write books or they just tell their (01:56:34) friends that you don't have to put up (01:56:36) with that. And then they say and then (01:56:38) there's a glamorization process. I've (01:56:40) seen this about how happy I am now that (01:56:42) I'm free and unencumbered. (01:56:44) And I think a lot of (01:56:45) >> the divorce rate for second marriages, (01:56:46) Laya, do you know the divorce rate for (01:56:48) second? (01:56:48) >> Tell me. (01:56:49) >> The divorce rate for first is about 40%. (01:56:51) And that's because it's people usually (01:56:53) say 50. It's not 50. It's because (01:56:55) there's second marriages that the (01:56:57) divorce rate for second marriages is (01:56:58) 66%. (01:57:01) Why? Well, in some cases, it's because I (01:57:03) was so difficult to live with. I thought (01:57:04) you were the difficult one. I'm taking (01:57:06) me into the next marriage. (01:57:09) >> Make it work. (01:57:11) Do you find yourself surprised by the (01:57:14) kinds of calls that you get now, letters (01:57:16) that you get now, the kinds of patients (01:57:19) effectively that you get now versus Yes. (01:57:21) >> 20, 30 years ago? What has changed? (01:57:23) >> Changed radically. First of all, I get a (01:57:25) lot more questions of my kids gender (01:57:28) identity confusion. (01:57:30) >> 30 years ago, I didn't get any. (01:57:32) >> Oh gosh. (01:57:33) >> Now, I get it all the time. (01:57:35) >> So sick. grandparents will call me and (01:57:36) say, "My daughter, my granddaughter, uh, (01:57:39) she's 13 and she knows she's a boy." Oh (01:57:41) my goodness. All of this. And they don't (01:57:43) explore it. They just assume that that's (01:57:44) the way it is. (01:57:46) >> So, there is some sign that the the (01:57:48) transgender movement has dropped. I (01:57:51) don't know if you've seen those (01:57:52) statistics, but they (01:57:53) >> It's all the dransitioners. We have them (01:57:54) on the show all the time. They're (01:57:55) amazing. But they're like, "What the (01:57:56) hell? (01:57:57) >> Nobody stopped me. (01:57:58) >> Like, what the hell? I mean, I was (01:57:59) mctoied. I mean, you cut my breasts off. (01:58:02) You jacked me up. you you you ruined my (01:58:05) life and it was a social contagion or I (01:58:07) was sexually abused as a kid or I just (01:58:09) was bullied. (01:58:10) >> I or I just had I was a little more (01:58:12) feminine (01:58:13) >> or the fact that I was confused about a (01:58:15) whole lot of things. (01:58:16) >> Right. (01:58:16) >> Exactly. So, that's a big one. The one (01:58:18) we talked about which is I'm separated (01:58:20) from my adult kids. I don't see my (01:58:22) grandkids. They will not let me see my (01:58:24) grandkids. That's a big one. That's (01:58:26) happened a lot. uh ADHD's exploded and I (01:58:31) think that in part that's been because (01:58:33) we tend to look at the child and say (01:58:35) something's wrong with that kid. The (01:58:38) medication uh has exploded for kids. (01:58:41) >> Those are the three things. (01:58:44) >> Has anything gotten better? (01:58:47) >> I think as anything else, (01:58:50) as what we try doesn't work, reality (01:58:52) always wins. The problem is, are we (01:58:54) going to let reality win? We have the (01:58:57) ability to challenge reality as humans. (01:59:00) And no matter how many facts and no (01:59:02) matter how much reality smacks us in the (01:59:03) face, we can still say, "No, no, no. I'm (01:59:06) going to do it my way. I'm going to do (01:59:07) it that way." And I think what has (01:59:09) gotten better, there's been a number of (01:59:10) parents percentage-wise who have said, (01:59:13) "You know what? This smartphone's a bad (01:59:15) idea. Research's coming out all over the (01:59:18) place. This is a bad idea to give it to (01:59:20) a 12-year-old." That's one. Two, more (01:59:23) parents are saying, "I realize now I'm (01:59:26) countercultural because I'm Christian or (01:59:27) because I'm Catholic. I realize that (01:59:29) now. I realize I can't have one foot in (01:59:32) the world and one foot in my house." (01:59:35) Yes, I I live in the world. That's true. (01:59:38) I'm not going to be a separatist, but at (01:59:40) the same time, I got to realize the (01:59:42) world doesn't think like me. That's (01:59:44) that's been a big factor. I've got more (01:59:46) of them and basically not being (01:59:48) culturally bullied. (01:59:50) >> That's it. Yeah, it we are living in a (01:59:52) culture of ideological bullying and it's (01:59:56) very very tragic, but there's an (01:59:58) opportunity now to be countercultural (02:00:00) and change that. We can we can change (02:00:02) that and I do think it is changing. I do (02:00:04) see a lot of that. I got to just ask you (02:00:05) one more thing about there's so many (02:00:07) things to talk and I thank you. This has (02:00:08) been this is so amazing. Um (02:00:10) >> you seem smarter already. (02:00:11) >> I'm a little bit smarter. (02:00:12) >> You get your IQ tested right now. It's (02:00:14) going to be up about 10 points. (02:00:15) >> I I hope so. Yes. I mean it might drop (02:00:17) down tomorrow, but (02:00:18) >> that's because you're by the kids. They (02:00:20) always do that. They suck off IQ points (02:00:21) like crazy. (02:00:24) >> That's legit. That's I think that's (02:00:26) objectively true actually between the (02:00:27) sleeplessness and whatever else is going (02:00:29) on. Um just sheltering children and I (02:00:32) I'm you guys know listening to the show. (02:00:35) A lot of these times I'm the one (02:00:36) benefiting from the conversation (02:00:37) directly. So I'm asking this question (02:00:39) for our audience listening. I'm asking (02:00:40) him for myself too. But you talked a lot (02:00:43) about I think you use the word children (02:00:45) that are worldly, children that are (02:00:46) exposed. And you know, you just (02:00:48) mentioned the 12-year-old and yeah, your (02:00:49) 12-year-old does not need an iPhone. Do (02:00:51) not let her have social media. That's an (02:00:53) easy one in my view. Um, but how much do (02:00:55) you recommend sheltering kids? (02:00:57) >> That is an accusation thrown at (02:01:00) religious parents and homeschoolers. (02:01:03) You can't protect them forever. That's a (02:01:06) real world out there. They're going to (02:01:07) be exposed to it. And when they're (02:01:09) finally exposed to it, they're going to (02:01:10) run like wild dogs. Now, you know that. (02:01:13) That's the accusation. (02:01:15) The socialization question for (02:01:17) homeschoolers. What about their (02:01:18) socialization? (02:01:20) All right, let me answer this. You're (02:01:22) not protecting them forever. You're (02:01:25) slowing the pace. You're letting them be (02:01:27) children longer. (02:01:30) When my dad grew up or even his father (02:01:32) grew up that they were more innocent. My (02:01:35) mom was innocent until her 15 16 years (02:01:38) of age. She was just innocent. All (02:01:39) right. And you say that's bad. Okay. So (02:01:42) maybe she didn't get some dirty jokes. (02:01:45) But in fact, the average 10-year-old (02:01:48) nowadays is much more worldly than a (02:01:50) 14-year-old two generations ago. So sad. (02:01:53) You're protecting them longer. I want to (02:01:55) give them a longer childhood. I'm going (02:01:58) to do what I can to keep away these (02:02:01) influences through the media, through (02:02:03) the phone, through the internet, all of (02:02:05) it. Okay? That's not hyperp protection. (02:02:08) But parents hear that. You're going to (02:02:11) screw your kid up. You know that, don't (02:02:12) you? because one day they're going to (02:02:14) realize you did that to them. Okay, so (02:02:17) that's one. Another one is Bill Bennett (02:02:21) was asked at a homeschooling conference, (02:02:24) what about their socialization? (02:02:26) And Bennett said, socialization to what? (02:02:31) What kind of socialization you talking (02:02:33) about? For example, my kids were (02:02:36) homeschooled. (02:02:38) Now, my wife and I are the primary (02:02:41) educators. (02:02:43) We're the ones to teach them (02:02:44) socialization, (02:02:46) not a group of 24 year old other third (02:02:49) or 24 other third graders (02:02:51) >> and their 30-year-old teacher. (02:02:53) >> Yes, that isn't necessar in in most of (02:02:56) human history, that's not how (02:02:57) socialization took place. Okay, public (02:03:00) education is a relatively new (02:03:02) phenomenon. So, what are we going to say (02:03:04) that for all of human history, nobody (02:03:06) got socialized because they weren't in a (02:03:08) third grade class with 20 other kids? (02:03:10) What is this? (02:03:12) And there's research that says, and this (02:03:14) is this is a surprise to a lot of (02:03:16) people, homeschoolers generally are (02:03:18) better socialized. (02:03:20) They get along with a wider range of (02:03:23) peers. That's one. (02:03:26) Two, they're comfortable around adults. (02:03:28) All right? They don't they don't follow (02:03:30) the peer rules. (02:03:32) Two of my kids went to private school (02:03:34) before we homeschooled him. And my son (02:03:36) in the second grade already started to (02:03:39) not want his mother to hold his hand on (02:03:42) the way to school already because that (02:03:45) was a peer rule. (02:03:46) >> That's so sad. (02:03:47) >> Once we homeschooled him, all of a (02:03:49) sudden his mom became his best buddy and (02:03:50) he didn't know the rules. Well, you hold (02:03:52) your mother's hand. That's cool. That's (02:03:55) cool. Your dad kisses you. Oh, yeah. My (02:03:57) dad kisses me. He's my dad. But already (02:04:00) he was being socialized differently to (02:04:03) that. And that was one of the reasons (02:04:04) why I said, "Okay, that's enough." (02:04:06) >> That's why if you're going to do school, (02:04:07) which there's some schools that can be (02:04:09) phenomenal, you got to do it really (02:04:11) intentionally. And that's hard for some (02:04:13) parents because they don't have access (02:04:15) to, you know, the little classical (02:04:17) Catholic school. They're they're looking (02:04:19) around and they're saying, "There's the (02:04:20) public school and then I want to maybe (02:04:23) homeschool, but we're a two we can't (02:04:24) afford to live without both of us (02:04:27) working." And they're in a bind. It's (02:04:29) not like the old days of homeschooling (02:04:30) when mom had to do it all herself or dad (02:04:33) had to do it. Now there's co-ops. Now (02:04:35) there are is online learning that if so (02:04:37) if mom can be home a couple days a week (02:04:39) and she can make other arrangements that (02:04:41) can happen. There's all kinds of options (02:04:43) for homeschooling. But that said, if (02:04:46) your child is in a public school setting (02:04:48) that you're wary about, you got to be (02:04:51) vigilant. (02:04:51) >> Yes, (02:04:52) >> you got to know what the sex ed is. You (02:04:54) got to know who he's hanging with. (02:04:55) You've got to be more vigilant than you (02:04:58) otherwise would have had to be if this (02:05:00) was a farm in 1880 in Illinois. (02:05:02) >> Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think the good a (02:05:05) good rule of thumb is to avoid public (02:05:07) school. I know that's not possible for (02:05:09) everybody and some public schools are (02:05:10) better than others. So, of course, (02:05:12) there's going to be nuance in there. Do (02:05:14) you have a rule of thumb for school? (02:05:15) >> I have rule of thumb for college. (02:05:18) If your kid wants to just have the (02:05:20) college experience, in other words, he (02:05:22) doesn't need a technical degree. This is (02:05:24) not something that he definitely has to (02:05:26) be trained in that he's going just to (02:05:28) get a bachelor's in something. (02:05:31) Couple of things. One, good chance he'll (02:05:33) come out with big loans. (02:05:35) 50 to 85% chance he'll lose his faith. (02:05:39) Wow. Three, 50% of kids after they (02:05:43) graduate in a a bachelor of arts degree (02:05:45) of some type do not work in the field (02:05:47) that field. And 10 years later, the (02:05:50) majority are not working in that field. (02:05:51) that that English degree didn't really (02:05:53) do much. Yeah. (02:05:54) >> So, as a result, what happened was it (02:05:56) was a lose-lose lose. I advise parents (02:06:00) college close to home. Maybe at least (02:06:01) the first year or two you can live at (02:06:03) home. Community college. (02:06:05) >> So, great (02:06:05) >> trade schools. Oh my gosh. I got a (02:06:07) couple of kids. I got a couple of kids (02:06:09) who really struggled through high (02:06:10) school. (02:06:12) Both of them are making upwards of 100k (02:06:15) a year because they got into trades. (02:06:19) >> Yep. that they learned. (02:06:21) >> Oh yeah. A lot of kids aren't going to (02:06:23) college and they're getting into either (02:06:25) trades or they're getting into their own (02:06:27) businesses. (02:06:27) >> I I teased my great I teased my engineer (02:06:30) son has a degree in engineering. I said, (02:06:32) "Andrew (02:06:33) >> said, you big dummy. You went to all (02:06:35) those years of education. You're not (02:06:36) making as much as your brother." (02:06:39) >> Little sibling rivalry in there. All (02:06:42) right. This has been so amazing. Can you (02:06:44) give us to help close us out? And then I (02:06:46) want to ask you how people can find all (02:06:48) your amazing work. (02:06:50) >> What's a is there a success story you (02:06:52) can share? Maybe one of your favorite (02:06:53) recent success stories of where you saw (02:06:56) transformation or positive growth in a (02:06:59) family uh because they started to deploy (02:07:02) some of these some of this advice and (02:07:05) some of this worldview because it's not (02:07:06) just tactics you're giving. It's really (02:07:07) worldview. (02:07:08) >> I can only tell you what people tell me (02:07:10) and it's one of the benefits of being at (02:07:12) this business a long time. (02:07:15) I'm surprised when I do a conference or (02:07:17) something like that, parents will come (02:07:19) up to me and say, you know, I started (02:07:22) listening to you 20 years ago and I got (02:07:24) to thank you cuz what you said, I (02:07:27) applied and it turned my family around. (02:07:29) >> Wow. (02:07:30) >> And I was shocked. I just said, "Wow." I (02:07:32) said, "Well, I appreciate that." And I (02:07:33) said, "Did you buy a book?" "No." "Well, (02:07:35) then the heck with you." So, I hear a (02:07:38) lot of that and I'm I'm grateful for (02:07:40) that. And I get emails. I get a lot of (02:07:41) emails. As a matter of fact, that's one (02:07:42) of the reasons why I stayed in Catholic (02:07:44) media. Initially, I didn't want to be in (02:07:46) Catholic media cuz I didn't want to be (02:07:48) tied to a microphone. (02:07:50) I tried it for 6 months at my wife's (02:07:53) behest. And I saw the emails. (02:07:57) I'm coming back to the church. (02:07:58) >> Wow. (02:07:59) >> I feel more confident as a parent. My (02:08:01) marriage has turned a corner. And then I (02:08:03) realized, wow, well, I better stick with (02:08:07) what I'm doing because I can't just tell (02:08:09) God, well, you know, you showed me that (02:08:11) some of these people benefit from this, (02:08:12) but I'm busy. You know what I mean? I (02:08:14) got Oh, yeah. Oprah. Yeah, (02:08:16) >> Oprah's calling. (02:08:17) >> Oprah's calling. (02:08:18) >> Are you hopeful for the future? (02:08:21) >> I am hopeful (02:08:22) >> for families and and kids. (02:08:25) >> People ask me that all the time. Do I (02:08:27) think there's going to be a reversal? (02:08:30) Blunt? (02:08:32) No, but I do think that there are going (02:08:36) to be increasing numbers of people who (02:08:39) say the way we've been told to do it, (02:08:42) the way we've been doing it for our (02:08:44) families and our marriages and religion (02:08:46) isn't working. (02:08:48) And increasing numbers of people are (02:08:50) going to say we got to have other (02:08:52) options here that square more with (02:08:54) reality. And if you look at the numbers, (02:08:57) there's brush fires. Brush fires (02:08:59) everywhere of for example the young men (02:09:01) who are coming into the church. You know (02:09:03) that, Laya. You've seen those (02:09:04) statistics. Young men are doubling their (02:09:06) numbers coming into the church. How'd (02:09:08) this happen in Britain? The Catholic (02:09:11) Church is now the number one religion in (02:09:12) Britain. It has surpassed Anglicanism. (02:09:15) So, how's this happening? People are (02:09:17) realizing that way doesn't work real (02:09:18) well. I see kids who go back to their (02:09:21) parents and say, "Mom, I've been so (02:09:23) wrong. I should have never done that. (02:09:25) you and dad, you and dad did so much (02:09:28) more for me and I was a a 28-year-old (02:09:31) brat. I do see that. See a lot of that. (02:09:34) So, that's the encouraging part of this. (02:09:36) But I will say this, the key is doing (02:09:38) this. (02:09:40) The key is prayer for your best judgment (02:09:44) to make the decision knowing it might (02:09:47) not work out. It that's just the way it (02:09:50) is. People will say, "Well, we'll find (02:09:52) out if it was the right decision by how (02:09:55) it worked out." No, no, no, no, no, no, (02:09:57) no. The right decision is the right (02:09:59) decision. It may blow up in your face, (02:10:02) but it was still the right decision. (02:10:05) That's what I tell parents. (02:10:06) >> And we're children of God, and he loves (02:10:08) us unconditionally. So, there's the the (02:10:10) root identity that all the storms of (02:10:13) life. (02:10:13) >> That's real selfidentity, isn't it? (02:10:15) >> That's real the true selfidentity. (02:10:17) Dr. Ray Garreni, this has been amazing. (02:10:19) How can people find you? (02:10:21) >> My website's dray.com. Dr. R A Y. (02:10:23) >> Easy peasy. (02:10:24) >> Yeah. And all the books are there, (02:10:26) signed, autographed. Um, (02:10:28) >> what book should people start with? Do (02:10:30) you have a recommendation? (02:10:31) >> If you're a parent, the one I'm going to (02:10:32) give you, discipline that lasts a (02:10:34) lifetime. (02:10:35) >> Love it. (02:10:35) >> That is the most common discipline (02:10:37) questions I get asked and I deal with (02:10:39) all the things we talked about. Parental (02:10:40) confidence, (02:10:41) >> blackout, (02:10:41) >> blackouts in there, blackouts in there, (02:10:44) all of that. So, that one (02:10:45) >> I have affection. two books that I think (02:10:48) uh for adults. One is called Thinking (02:10:50) Like Jesus, the psychology of a faithful (02:10:52) disciple. The other one is Jesus the (02:10:54) master psychologist. And I talk about (02:10:56) our Lord's prescriptions for good living (02:10:59) from a psychological perspective and why (02:11:00) they work. (02:11:01) >> Amazing. (02:11:02) >> That and then the most recent one is how (02:11:04) to get along with almost everybody. (02:11:06) >> Good one. We got to have you back and (02:11:08) we'll do the Jesus books. (02:11:09) >> Sure. (02:11:10) >> This has been amazing. Thank you so (02:11:11) much. (02:11:12) >> You make it easy. (02:11:13) >> Well, talking to the professional here. (02:11:16) Thank you. Thanks so much for listening (02:11:17) to this episode of the Lilaya Rose Show. (02:11:19) I hope you enjoyed it. I always do. Make (02:11:21) sure that you're subscribed if you (02:11:23) haven't hit that subscribe button (02:11:24) already and go over to our Patreon to (02:11:27) support the mission of this show. That's (02:11:28) patreon.com/laose. (02:11:31) A huge thank you to our partner EWTN, (02:11:33) the largest religious broadcaster in the (02:11:35) entire world. EWTN is reaching millions (02:11:37) of people every single day with the (02:11:39) beautiful truth of the gospel. You can (02:11:41) watch new episodes of the Llaya Rose (02:11:43) Show 24 hours before they hit podcast (02:11:45) app over at EWTN.com/onddemand.