Dr. Henry Cloud Explains the Consequences of Modern Parenting (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) It's surprising to me how many single (00:00:03) women, they're dating little boys in (00:00:06) 30-year-old bodies. (00:00:07) >> Yeah, (00:00:09) >> there's too much prolonged dependency (00:00:11) today. The parenting narrative that's (00:00:13) out there, I think, is drastically (00:00:16) reducing the agency of kids. you have (00:00:19) been able to merge [music] both the (00:00:21) spiritual principles and biblical (00:00:23) principles with the tools that people (00:00:26) [music] can actually utilize at home and (00:00:28) move to places of greater health. (00:00:30) >> When I first started in this field, (00:00:32) there was a big big push that was almost (00:00:34) ballistic parenting. I mean, it was like (00:00:37) so now the pendulum is swung where the (00:00:40) kids feelings in the moment or whatever (00:00:43) are driving the whole program. That's (00:00:45) not good for a child. Their boss is not (00:00:48) going to do that. The IRS is not going (00:00:50) to do that. One of the key skills is for (00:00:54) a child to (00:00:58) [music] Welcome to the Lisa Bevere (00:01:00) podcast and I am so excited about my (00:01:03) guest today. I have Dr. the Doctor Henry (00:01:07) Cloud with me and I have listened to Dr. (00:01:09) Cloud. I have made my husband listen to (00:01:11) Dr. Cloud. I have gotten so much rich (00:01:15) tips just from little tidbits. And so if (00:01:18) you want to have a healthier marriage, (00:01:20) healthier relationship with your (00:01:22) children, I believe that you're going to (00:01:24) really want to dive into today's (00:01:27) podcast. We're going to be talking about (00:01:28) everything from parenting to leadership (00:01:31) to women being strong and dealing with (00:01:33) the wounds in your past. We're going to (00:01:35) do it all in 25 minutes. It's going to (00:01:37) be shocking. Uh Dr. Henry, (00:01:39) >> why does it take 25 minutes to do that? (00:01:41) All that. Hey, listen. You were the one (00:01:43) that I was so excited about when you (00:01:46) were like, "Hey, uh, all I keep hearing (00:01:48) is everybody's a narcissist. Everybody's (00:01:50) a narcissist." And you said the name of (00:01:53) Jesus is higher than narcissists. And (00:01:56) people can get free from being (00:01:59) narcissists. Yeah. You (00:02:00) >> know, well, one of the bad things that's (00:02:02) out there, and you hear this, and I hear (00:02:03) this a lot, people would would call into (00:02:06) my show and say, "Well, you know, my my (00:02:08) therapist said my husband's a (00:02:09) narcissist, and you know, they don't (00:02:10) change." So dot dot dot I said stop (00:02:13) right there. (00:02:13) >> Yeah, I heard you say that. Yep. (00:02:15) >> It is not true that narcissists can't (00:02:18) change. (00:02:18) >> Yeah, (00:02:19) >> it is true that some don't. (00:02:21) >> I mean, God has that problem with all of (00:02:22) his kids. Some change, some don't. But (00:02:26) what's wrong today in that category and (00:02:28) a lot of categories is these labels get (00:02:30) thrown out there. (00:02:31) >> Yeah. (00:02:32) >> And they they don't mean anything (00:02:33) anymore. And and so I just asked one (00:02:36) question. What kind of narcissist? They (00:02:38) go, well, a narcissistic personality. I (00:02:40) said, 'Is he envy based or shame based? (00:02:43) >> And they're like, you're going too far (00:02:44) with this. (00:02:45) >> Well, you deal very differently with (00:02:46) them. And so, one answer, does it fit (00:02:49) everybody? And it's just (00:02:52) people can change. You have to have the (00:02:54) right circumstances. You have to write (00:02:55) have the right leverage. You have to (00:02:56) have the right ingredients. Do they all (00:02:58) change? No. But don't ever say they (00:03:01) can't change. Same thing with border (00:03:02) lines. I've treated so many border (00:03:04) lines. They got healthy. (00:03:05) >> Yep. Yep. I mean, I I have just been so (00:03:09) encouraged that you have been able to (00:03:11) merge both the spiritual principles and (00:03:14) biblical principles with the tools that (00:03:17) people can actually utilize at home and (00:03:19) move to places of greater health. And (00:03:22) so, (00:03:22) >> can I say something about that? (00:03:23) >> Yeah. (00:03:24) >> Because people always talk a lot about, (00:03:25) well, you know, there's emotional (00:03:27) problems and then there's spiritual (00:03:28) problems. If you have an emotional (00:03:30) problem, you send them to the therapy, (00:03:31) spiritual problem, you send to the (00:03:32) pastor. That never made sense to me (00:03:34) because if your spiritual life is not (00:03:36) affecting your emotional, relational (00:03:38) life, then it's almost like there'd have (00:03:41) to be another gospel. (00:03:42) >> God has addressed all this stuff. Now, (00:03:44) we need people that go deep just like (00:03:47) the Bible tells us how to run our f (00:03:49) finances. (00:03:50) >> Some people you need some like an (00:03:52) accountant that goes deep with a lot of (00:03:54) knowledge specifically. But it's amazing (00:03:57) how and this is I can kind of say this (00:04:01) almost true (00:04:03) in a way and it is all evidence-based (00:04:08) treatments that work. (00:04:11) >> Those principles and prescriptions are (00:04:15) in the scriptures. (00:04:16) >> I believe that (00:04:17) >> all of them. (00:04:17) >> Yeah. Whether you're talking about the (00:04:19) cognitive people or the emotionally (00:04:21) based people or the experiential people (00:04:24) or the relational attachment people, God (00:04:26) has spoken of this stuff. (00:04:28) >> Yeah. Yeah. And and wants to actually be (00:04:30) very involved in restoration. You know, (00:04:33) uh somebody was telling me about a trend (00:04:36) that is cutting off parents, like (00:04:39) children cutting off their toxic (00:04:40) parents. (00:04:41) >> And I get blamed for some of it. Oh, I (00:04:43) get blamed for some of it. (00:04:44) >> You do? Because of boundaries. (00:04:45) >> Because of boundaries. And it's (00:04:47) interesting (00:04:49) the boundaries the whole the book and (00:04:52) all the stuff that I've done in that (00:04:54) area boundaries are in the service of (00:04:57) love and relationship. (00:04:59) God gave the the law [snorts] as the (00:05:04) structure (00:05:05) >> of how love is supposed to work. You (00:05:08) can't have love without any boundaries (00:05:10) is codependency. Love has to have limits (00:05:14) and boundaries and it's to make (00:05:16) relationships better. (00:05:17) >> And if somebody there is a biblical (00:05:20) principle that at a certain point for (00:05:22) certain reasons, some relationships have (00:05:25) to end. (00:05:26) >> But what some people are doing is (00:05:28) they'll take boundaries and they're (00:05:31) punitive and angry and retaliatory and (00:05:33) persec. (00:05:40) Well, there's a difference between (00:05:41) boundaries and barriers. I mean, when (00:05:44) you when you have a barrier, that's a (00:05:45) cut off forever. A boundary is like this (00:05:47) is unhealthy right now, and until we can (00:05:50) bring it to a place of health, at least (00:05:51) that's how I understood it. We're not (00:05:53) approaching it on these grounds anymore. (00:05:56) We're going from a different uh posture. (00:05:58) So, one of the things that I am seeing (00:06:01) in our culture right now is people are (00:06:04) really quick to quit. (00:06:06) >> Quick to quit. Mhm. Marriages, (00:06:09) relationships, parenting. And I remember (00:06:12) there was years ago where John and I had (00:06:14) to do a marriage teaching, which is one (00:06:17) of my least favorite things to do with (00:06:18) my husband. I love my husband. I just (00:06:19) don't like to do marriage seminars with (00:06:21) my husband. You (00:06:22) >> You do the marriage seminars at home (00:06:23) with him. Right. (00:06:24) >> Right. I try. I try. I try to bring you (00:06:26) in. I'm like, "Dr. Cloud is coming to (00:06:28) dinner tonight. We're going to listen to (00:06:29) him." During COVID, we had you had a lot (00:06:31) of air time. But I remember reading this (00:06:35) this uh crazy survey where they had (00:06:38) talked to a number of couples who (00:06:40) actually said our marriage is bad. Like (00:06:43) we we we do not have a good marriage. We (00:06:45) do not rank it good. We do not rank it (00:06:47) hopeful. But we're committed. And five (00:06:50) years later, right, (00:06:52) >> they said they had a good marriage. And (00:06:54) so many people quit in the middle ground (00:06:58) when they actually could work through (00:07:00) some hard stuff. because I've been (00:07:02) married 43 years, which means I've gone (00:07:05) through almost every single cycle of a (00:07:08) marriage. You know, being newly married (00:07:10) and then now we're empty nesters. We had (00:07:12) young kids and we had teenagers and too (00:07:14) many of my friends tapped out tapped out (00:07:18) too early. I don't know if you've (00:07:20) noticed, but meat prices are (00:07:23) skyrocketing. And that is why I am so (00:07:26) excited to share with you about Good (00:07:28) Ranchers. Now, John and I have (00:07:30) subscribed to Good Ranchers. That meat (00:07:33) comes straight to our house and we love (00:07:36) it because it is hormone free. It is (00:07:39) antibiotic free. It is healthy meat. And (00:07:43) this is the incredible thing. It is (00:07:45) working with American farmers. So, good (00:07:48) ranchers.com, (00:07:50) that's what you need. And if you sign up (00:07:52) using the name Bever, you're going to (00:07:54) get $40 off and free meat for life. (00:07:58) Disportion of it, not all of it, as long (00:08:01) as you're subscribed. Goodranchers.com. (00:08:04) American meat delivered. (00:08:05) >> I say way too early. (00:08:07) >> Way too early. Yeah. (00:08:08) >> It I mean, we could go deep into this, (00:08:10) but one of the ways to think about it is (00:08:13) let's pretend you're going to go into (00:08:17) surgery. All right. Well, in surgery, (00:08:22) you make a commitment because they put (00:08:23) you under and you're not climbing off (00:08:25) the table (00:08:26) >> until the doctor's finished (00:08:28) >> right (00:08:29) >> now. If you were awake, once she starts (00:08:33) carving on you and it gets painful and (00:08:35) it gets bloody, you go, I'm getting out (00:08:37) of here. But the commitment of marriage (00:08:40) says that (00:08:42) >> we're going to work through the surgery (00:08:45) because both of us need it (00:08:47) >> to change parts of ourselves that make a (00:08:50) good marriage impossible. (00:08:51) >> Yeah. (00:08:51) >> And people will not like what they're (00:08:54) experiencing (00:08:55) >> and they'll say, "Well, I don't like you (00:08:57) anymore, you're bad, or you're this." (00:08:59) And and run. And it's it's sad. (00:09:02) >> Yeah. Because some of the best marriages (00:09:04) I know were at the brink. (00:09:07) >> Yeah. (00:09:08) >> Literally couldn't be in each other's (00:09:09) presences or there was great betrayal, (00:09:12) >> but they did the work and now they'll (00:09:14) tell you, "Thank God they did." (00:09:16) >> We have met so many couples that poured (00:09:18) into us when we were young. Yeah. (00:09:20) >> That gave us hope. My husband's parents (00:09:22) were just normal people. They were (00:09:24) normal. They weren't adulters. They (00:09:26) weren't alcoholics. They his family when (00:09:28) when my husband brought me into his (00:09:30) parents, he was like, "This is Lisa." (00:09:33) And his parents were like, "We have (00:09:34) never had divorce in our family before." (00:09:36) And I was like, "Well, we've never not (00:09:38) had divorce in our family." So, so I (00:09:41) just was committed that I did not want (00:09:44) to build what I had seen. Yeah. (00:09:46) >> But that didn't mean I would know how to (00:09:48) build what I wanted. (00:09:50) >> And because it was work. (00:09:52) >> Because to build something new, you've (00:09:54) also got to see something new. Yeah. And (00:09:56) one of the things if you're a young (00:09:57) couple out there or even a couple going (00:09:59) through stuff at other ages, (00:10:04) please I mean please, please, please (00:10:07) look at the circle that you're sitting (00:10:09) in as a couple. One of the most (00:10:12) important things that you can do and a (00:10:14) lot of single people get adopted by some (00:10:18) good family in your 20s that has you (00:10:21) over and you volunteer to keep the kids (00:10:23) and you get in and you see what good (00:10:26) marriages look like because a lot of (00:10:28) people haven't had the modeling. You (00:10:30) know, God created us to be imitative. We (00:10:32) learn language by imitating. We learn to (00:10:34) walk by imitating. We we we need models. (00:10:37) Paul said, "Follow me as I follow (00:10:39) Christ." Mh. (00:10:40) >> And we've got to see, you got to be (00:10:43) around people that do it well. You have (00:10:46) to. So, whatever you got to do, get in (00:10:48) those circles. (00:10:49) >> Okay. So, I am, and this is something (00:10:52) that has come up, women who have not (00:10:55) healed from the past, go into a (00:10:58) marriage, (00:10:59) >> Yeah. (00:10:59) >> and end up sabotaging it. Yeah. (00:11:01) >> How do they break that cycle? (00:11:02) >> Do you know Solomon said that? (00:11:04) >> No. (00:11:05) >> Yeah. He said the earthquakes under I (00:11:07) think four things. And one of them was (00:11:10) in in one rendering says when an unloved (00:11:13) woman finds a husband. (00:11:15) >> And it's sad because and it could be (00:11:18) male or female. When when somebody has (00:11:20) never had what they need, (00:11:23) >> they're coming into the relationship (00:11:26) in a way that it's going to be very (00:11:29) difficult to take from the relationship (00:11:32) what they need and to give what the (00:11:34) relationship needs. And so you know the (00:11:37) Bible says the two shall become one. (00:11:41) >> Now what marriage does marriage is not (00:11:44) additive. You don't get one plus one and (00:11:47) you get two. You get two. You get one (00:11:50) times one equals one. But that (00:11:53) presupposes that the two these (00:11:55) individuals were both mature complete (00:11:58) people. And marriage is going to (00:12:00) multiply whatever you find. And so if (00:12:03) you've got, you know, anger and and (00:12:07) avoidance and lack of attachment and (00:12:09) detachment and controlling behavior, (00:12:11) marriage is going to multiply that. It's (00:12:14) not going to fix it. (00:12:15) >> So that's why we have to work on our (00:12:17) individual issues both and then come (00:12:19) together and work on our issues (00:12:20) together. (00:12:21) >> I mean, ideally, (00:12:22) >> we celebrated our 30th last week. (00:12:24) >> Congratulations. Well, ideally, I think (00:12:26) it would be great if everybody could get (00:12:27) fixed before they get married, but for (00:12:30) me, marriage I I don't know a lot of (00:12:33) those guys. [laughter] (00:12:35) >> Marriage actually was a catalyst for my (00:12:37) remaking. (00:12:38) >> Yeah. (00:12:39) >> You know, I I remember very early on in (00:12:41) my marriage thinking I want him to go (00:12:43) away. Like I you know, I like dating, (00:12:46) but this marriage thing like I he's in (00:12:49) my space all the time and and think he's (00:12:52) making me mad. Well, he wasn't making me (00:12:54) mad, but things that were in me that (00:12:57) weren't dealt with were coming to the (00:12:58) surface, (00:12:58) >> right? It's going to do that, (00:13:00) >> right? And now we have an entire (00:13:01) generation that doesn't want doesn't (00:13:04) seem to want to get married or uh the (00:13:07) men are tapping out and saying I don't (00:13:08) want to get married and the women still (00:13:10) want to get married but we seem to have (00:13:12) a famine of young men. What would you (00:13:15) what would you say to that? Because I (00:13:18) watched my husband shift when I went (00:13:21) from being his mother (00:13:23) >> and I started to be his wife. (00:13:25) >> But you we were already married. (00:13:27) >> How long did that take? (00:13:29) >> Four years. Four years. (00:13:30) >> Four years. Yeah. (00:13:32) >> It's surprising to me how many single (00:13:37) women in their, let's call it 25 to 35 (00:13:42) that come up to me and say, "There's no (00:13:45) good single men out there." (00:13:47) >> Yeah, I hear that all the time. (00:13:49) >> And I know a lot of good single (00:13:52) Christian and other men. And I I I used (00:13:56) to think that just that just can't be (00:13:57) true. But then when they would describe (00:13:59) the ones that are saying that (00:14:02) they're dating little boys in 30-y old (00:14:05) bodies. (00:14:07) >> Yeah. (00:14:08) >> And I mean, we could go into a lot of (00:14:10) reasons how that happens, but I would (00:14:13) say to the single man, (00:14:17) it really is important that you become (00:14:22) marriable. (00:14:24) And I'm going to tell you experience. I (00:14:27) mean, I didn't get married till well (00:14:28) into my 30s. And (00:14:32) the job description of a husband is very (00:14:35) different than the job description of a (00:14:37) boyfriend. (00:14:39) And you might be a great boyfriend and (00:14:41) she might think you're a great (00:14:42) boyfriend, but all of a sudden you get (00:14:44) moved to the seauite. [laughter] (00:14:46) >> Yeah. (00:14:47) >> And it's a different job description. (00:14:50) Mhm. (00:14:51) >> And if we're not building those skills (00:14:54) before we get there, you have to build (00:14:56) them after. And it's harder to live in a (00:14:58) house that's being remodeled than one (00:14:59) that's already, you know, ready to go. (00:15:01) So, and and women, same thing. I mean, (00:15:03) the best thing you can do for your (00:15:05) marriage. And certainly, you need to (00:15:07) pick the right one. But you've got to (00:15:09) become the right one first. And not only (00:15:13) for that reason, but also, and I've seen (00:15:16) this too many times, (00:15:19) if you haven't worked out your issues, (00:15:21) you're going to pick the wrong one (00:15:23) likely because we pick people that are (00:15:25) compatible with what our issues fit (00:15:29) with. (00:15:31) >> Yeah. (00:15:31) >> Jesus said, "Get the log out of your own (00:15:33) eye first." Why? So you can see clearly. (00:15:36) And a lot of times we're blinded by our (00:15:38) own wounds and pain and patterns and all (00:15:41) that stuff. (00:15:42) >> So there's a lot of young girls that are (00:15:44) watching and they're like (00:15:46) >> young meaning what (00:15:47) >> the age group you you said 25 to 35 to (00:15:50) 35 (00:15:50) >> That's pretty much my demographic. They (00:15:52) they read my books because they're (00:15:54) looking for a mother. (00:15:55) >> And it's very interesting who like I (00:15:58) remember the first time I I thought oh (00:16:00) who reads my books are my peers. And I (00:16:02) thought nope. It's 25 to 35 is my number (00:16:05) one demographic. then 35 to 45 and then (00:16:08) it goes down 15 25 then it pops up into (00:16:11) my range which I'm 65. (00:16:13) >> You're sort of like the Jordan Peterson (00:16:14) for women. [clears throat] (00:16:16) >> That would be a compliment. No, but but (00:16:18) there are there are young men that are (00:16:20) are looking for (00:16:21) >> absolutely (00:16:22) >> mentoring (00:16:23) >> and and I I do believe that there's (00:16:25) young girls out there that are sharp (00:16:27) young girls, godly young girls, and they (00:16:31) are trying to figure out they don't want (00:16:33) to. They so many men find them either (00:16:35) intimidating or the men are just not (00:16:38) present. And I I know that I mean I wish (00:16:43) I could have said, "Oh yeah, I had all (00:16:45) my stuff figured out." I did know at (00:16:47) least this. I knew before I married my (00:16:50) husband. I said, "God, I have terrible (00:16:54) taste in men. I pick men that are hard (00:16:57) to please and hard to keep like my dad." (00:17:00) >> And I said, "I am cannot be trusted." I (00:17:03) mean, I was dating a Serbian before I (00:17:05) met my husband. I mean, they started (00:17:06) World War I. So, I was like, "What (00:17:08) [laughter] (00:17:08) what what am I looking for?" So, John is (00:17:11) the opposite of what I was dating in any (00:17:14) other thing. And I said, "God, you know (00:17:16) me. You know what I need." So, you're (00:17:19) saying they're looking for these baby (00:17:20) boys. (00:17:21) >> No, I said they're they're finding (00:17:23) >> finding baby boys. Okay. (00:17:24) >> That have I mean, we get into a lot of (00:17:27) topics here. it gets into parenting and (00:17:30) all that, but um [snorts] (00:17:32) >> many that um and they wouldn't know this (00:17:37) or say this, but when you look at a at a (00:17:40) you know psychological dynamics who (00:17:43) really have not separated from their (00:17:45) mothers (00:17:46) >> and it's like the scripture says you (00:17:49) leave to cleave (00:17:53) and (00:17:54) to the mothers out there and the father (00:17:57) the parents (00:17:59) Your job is to get somebody who has a a (00:18:05) what is that? Sell by date. Like your (00:18:07) milk. (00:18:08) >> It's going to go sour if it sits in on (00:18:11) the couch for too long. (00:18:12) >> And it you got to get it to where it's (00:18:15) ready to be an independent person (00:18:17) >> and can handle life on their own and (00:18:21) then they can establish a life with (00:18:23) somebody. And so there's too much and (00:18:26) knowing we're almost in parenting now, (00:18:27) but there there's too much prolonged (00:18:30) dependency today. We're not um the (00:18:33) parenting narrative that's out there, I (00:18:36) think, is drastically reducing the (00:18:39) agency of kids. (00:18:42) >> The ability to live life and to be (00:18:45) independent. And we've pushed that so (00:18:48) far down. (00:18:49) >> You think mothers are doing more of the (00:18:50) parenting than the fathers? Well, what I (00:18:54) have noticed is nobody's doing the (00:18:56) parenting in a lot of situations. (00:18:58) Um, there is, you know, these pendulums (00:19:02) swing and um when I when I first started (00:19:08) in this field, there was a big big push (00:19:12) that was almost ballistic parenting. I (00:19:15) mean, it was like, you know, I probably (00:19:17) just exploded the sound system. (00:19:19) >> That's all right. But [snorts] it was (00:19:20) overly overly like these drastic little (00:19:25) sinners and you need to whip them into (00:19:26) shape and all this kind of stuff. (00:19:27) >> The happy shiny people world. Yes. (00:19:29) >> And it may be the kids that were raised (00:19:32) in some of that. And they were so (00:19:33) wounded by the harsh parenting that the (00:19:35) Bible speaks against. (00:19:37) >> Says, "Fathers, do not exasperate your (00:19:39) children. Do not dishearten them. Do not (00:19:41) provoke them to wrath." (00:19:42) >> Yeah. (00:19:43) So now the pendulum is swung where it's (00:19:47) like (00:19:49) so oriented what the child wants and how (00:19:52) they're feeling and all this stuff we (00:19:54) have to validate. You know the (00:19:56) invalidation of people's emotional (00:19:58) states is one of the biggest causes for (00:20:00) character disorders like borderline (00:20:02) personality. (00:20:03) >> Okay. (00:20:03) >> But when you have validation without (00:20:06) limits (00:20:08) >> I kind of feel like we have that in our (00:20:09) culture right now as well. whatever I (00:20:11) feel is reality, right? (00:20:13) >> And whatever I feel and it (00:20:16) >> it's sort of like the compass gets (00:20:17) shifted (00:20:19) >> where where the kids the kids feelings (00:20:23) in the moment or whatever are driving (00:20:25) the whole program. That's not good for a (00:20:28) child. (00:20:29) >> And not only does it reduce agency, but (00:20:31) you've got anxiety disorders, bunch of (00:20:33) stuff because of the absence of (00:20:35) structure. Kids need structure and (00:20:38) limits. And what you're one of the big (00:20:42) reasons for that is (00:20:45) if they don't and you got I remember (00:20:47) when we were we were raising our girls (00:20:49) and they're 23 and 25 now and I'd go to (00:20:52) these parenting circles and and I'd see (00:20:54) these these moms because I was in the (00:20:57) mommies group one day every week. I took (00:21:00) the kids to parent toddler preschool. (00:21:01) So, I joined the mommy's group and the (00:21:03) toddlers, you know, they do this and and (00:21:06) one parent say no and they would say, (00:21:08) "No, no, don't say no. Give them another (00:21:10) choice." (00:21:11) And my hair almost caught on fire. I (00:21:13) said, "What do you mean don't say no?" (00:21:15) They go, "No, you'll hurt their (00:21:16) self-esteem. Give them another choice." (00:21:18) No, you don't. Their boss is not going (00:21:21) to do that. (00:21:22) >> The IRS is not going to do that. And one (00:21:24) of the chief (00:21:25) >> not going to do that. (00:21:25) >> The police aren't. And the floor is not (00:21:27) going to do it when you hit it. One of (00:21:30) the key skills (00:21:33) is for a child to learn to respect the (00:21:37) word no and to embrace it. Like the song (00:21:41) we used to teach our kids, you get what (00:21:42) you get and you don't get upset, right? (00:21:44) To learn to accept limits without (00:21:47) thinking the person with the limit is (00:21:49) persecuto or bad or you know you don't (00:21:52) love me and all that. And what happens (00:21:53) is this gets complicated, but when you (00:21:57) when when you have a that age kid and (00:21:59) you set a limit, what are they going to (00:22:00) do? They're going to rage. (00:22:02) That's their job. But instead of giving (00:22:05) into the rage, (00:22:08) validate, I know you're upset and you're (00:22:12) still going to not go play right now. (00:22:14) You're going to do this. (00:22:16) >> You validate the feeling. You empathize, (00:22:18) but you keep the limit. Then what (00:22:21) happens is they have to metabolize that (00:22:25) and give up the protest of a limit that (00:22:30) gets internalize that external limit (00:22:32) gets internalized as an internal no (00:22:35) which later turns into self-control. (00:22:38) >> Yeah. Which is the very say no to (00:22:40) themselves. (00:22:41) >> Yeah. Is self-control. Without (00:22:42) self-control, (00:22:44) >> we've got we've got chaos. You know, (00:22:45) it's interesting. And you and I were (00:22:47) talking a little bit beforehand. And I (00:22:49) told you I did a podcast with my my (00:22:50) youngest son, which you know, pretty (00:22:52) much with your first son, you you (00:22:53) probably don't want to do a parenting (00:22:54) one with your first child. I'm I'm (00:22:56) pretty sure that's why the Bible's like, (00:22:57) "Give them the double portion of the (00:22:59) inheritance." [laughter] That was (00:23:00) experimental parenting. I mean, you make (00:23:02) so many more mistakes with your first. I (00:23:04) had four. So by the fourth son, my (00:23:07) fourth son was a watcher. He was like, (00:23:08) "Ah, don't do that. I'm not I'm not (00:23:11) going to do that. Look what happened to (00:23:12) him. (00:23:13) >> There's a consequence on that one. Don't (00:23:15) say that." And so we were talking and um (00:23:19) my team who I don't know if they were (00:23:21) like we just need some we just need some (00:23:23) viewership. I don't know they they took (00:23:25) the clip about spanking and they were (00:23:28) like let's put that one out of the (00:23:30) entire conversation. Let's put that clip (00:23:32) on spanking. Well you're a doctor and (00:23:35) you have access to data that I don't (00:23:37) have access to. And I I've seen my my (00:23:40) children's friends that were disciplined (00:23:42) and the ones that were the permissive (00:23:44) parenting, the maybe our version of (00:23:47) gentle parenting back then, uh where (00:23:50) there's no losing, there's everybody, (00:23:52) you know, oh, (00:23:53) >> everybody gets a trophy, (00:23:54) >> everybody gets a trophy. Um if (00:23:56) >> self-esteem kind of rule of the day, (00:23:58) which is a very (00:24:01) >> very (00:24:02) >> self is self is deny yourself. That (00:24:04) doesn't mean that you neglect yourself, (00:24:06) but having an awareness of others is key (00:24:11) to maturity. (00:24:12) >> Well, the first I mean you look at all (00:24:13) the research on ever been done like now (00:24:16) they call it emotional intelligence but (00:24:18) when that started to be gathered is in (00:24:20) the 90s the biggest construct was number (00:24:23) one awareness of self number two (00:24:26) awareness of others. [snorts] (00:24:28) And what's happened is a lot of times so (00:24:31) much the orientation of the parent to (00:24:35) the to the other which is the kid's (00:24:37) self. (00:24:38) >> Yes. (00:24:38) >> That they kind of see the world as an (00:24:43) extension of themselves. (00:24:45) And so when the world frustrates me then (00:24:49) I either get angry. I fight or flight. I (00:24:52) get angry or I withdraw or I freeze. I (00:24:55) get paralyzed. (00:24:56) >> Right? And what's so important with kids (00:24:59) is that they learn a sense of what we (00:25:03) call agency, which is that they have (00:25:06) control to make choices that affect (00:25:10) outcomes. (00:25:11) >> Yeah. [snorts] (00:25:12) >> And when you take away a child's ability (00:25:15) to know that I've got my hands on the (00:25:17) lever and if I pull this one, bad things (00:25:20) are going to happen, but if I pull this (00:25:22) one, good things are going to happen. (00:25:24) Then they learn self-control and that (00:25:27) gets internalized to self-regulation, to (00:25:30) being able to make choices, to being (00:25:32) able to avoid bad things, say yes to (00:25:34) good things. And (00:25:35) >> they can predict outcomes. They don't (00:25:38) live in confusion and chaos. (00:25:39) >> 100%. We need that. That is the control (00:25:42) we're supposed to have, (00:25:43) >> right? You know that there's an (00:25:45) interesting verse in Romans 5 where it (00:25:48) says we we rejoice in our sufferings (00:25:51) know that suffering produces (00:25:53) perseverance (00:25:54) >> which produces character which produces (00:25:57) hope. (00:25:59) You go back to the suffering part the (00:26:01) Greek word there (00:26:04) it it's a suffering a situation from (00:26:08) which there's no escape. (00:26:10) >> Wow. So, I've got to change in order to (00:26:13) deal with it. Well, (00:26:15) time out with a toddler (00:26:18) is toddler hell. (00:26:21) That's suffering. (00:26:22) >> Yeah. (00:26:23) >> But when you do it, what happens? I (00:26:25) remember when we put Olivia in time out, (00:26:27) I I was I kind of thought it was funny. (00:26:29) Tori was like, you know, she's the first (00:26:32) time she's like screaming and screaming (00:26:34) and Tori's going, "No, you gotta, you (00:26:37) know, we we we said, "You're going to be (00:26:39) in there." And we walk, you know, and (00:26:40) she's in and she's screaming and (00:26:42) screaming. She goes, "That's long (00:26:43) enough. That's long enough. Let her (00:26:45) out." (00:26:45) >> The mom's tape. (00:26:46) >> Yeah. (00:26:46) >> Yeah. I said, "Just hold on. Just wait. (00:26:48) Wait." And I don't know. It's like seems (00:26:51) like an attorney. It's right two (00:26:52) minutes. Then finally that screaming (00:26:54) turned into (00:26:58) I said okay now. (00:26:59) >> Yeah. (00:27:00) >> Because what had happened is she could (00:27:03) not move the limit. (00:27:06) >> So then she went into a big grief moment (00:27:11) learning that I'm not God. I can't (00:27:14) control the world around me. I have to (00:27:16) respect the limit because it's not (00:27:18) moving. And then you go in and you (00:27:21) connect say, "Okay, so I know you're (00:27:24) sad, but why are you in here? How'd you (00:27:26) get in here?" Well, because I did. Okay, (00:27:28) so what do you say? (00:27:31) But they have to (00:27:34) learn to deal with situations. (00:27:37) And now we've got colleges, I have (00:27:40) universities talking to me about what do (00:27:42) we do? We had to establish a whole new (00:27:45) department to deal with parents who are (00:27:47) calling because their freshman has a (00:27:49) conflict with somebody on their dorm (00:27:51) floor and the parents are calling the (00:27:53) school and the school they don't know (00:27:54) how to resolve it. (00:27:55) >> Wow. Well, you know, and going back to (00:27:57) the child realizing they're not God for (00:27:59) me as a mother. (00:28:01) >> I had to realize I wasn't God because I (00:28:03) wasn't raised in a healthy pattern. And (00:28:07) so my my parents used I would say (00:28:10) emotional uh abuse consistently and (00:28:13) there was physical abuse from my mother. (00:28:15) And so I think I was scared that I won't (00:28:20) be able to navigate it in a healthy way. (00:28:23) And so I would say if you do that again, (00:28:26) if you do that again, if you do I mean I (00:28:28) didn't give clear (00:28:30) >> uh clear boundaries. I would count to (00:28:33) three. I would say, "If you guys don't (00:28:34) stop that, I'm going to spank (00:28:35) everybody." And my husband would be (00:28:36) like, "Are you really going to do that?" (00:28:38) And I'd be like, "No." And he'd be like, (00:28:39) "Don't lie to them." So, either don't, (00:28:41) if you're not going to do it, don't say (00:28:43) it. And I remember there was a moment (00:28:44) where I felt so overwhelmed as a young (00:28:46) mom. I had, you know, five, you know, (00:28:49) all my kids under five and just so (00:28:51) overwhelmed. And I remember there was (00:28:53) this moment where I realized I'm trying (00:28:56) to do this in my own strength instead of (00:28:58) God's way. And and I sat down with my (00:29:01) boys and I said, "You know how I've been (00:29:02) yelling?" (00:29:03) >> And they were like, "Yeah." I'm like, (00:29:04) "Yeah, we know that. (00:29:05) >> I'm not going to do that anymore. Do you (00:29:07) know how I've been like while I'm (00:29:09) breastfeeding one child like slapping at (00:29:11) you? I'm not doing that anymore. I'm (00:29:13) going to say it one time." (00:29:15) >> Perfect. (00:29:15) >> With clarity, and I'm going to say it (00:29:17) with calmness. If you don't understand (00:29:20) what I'm saying, you can ask me, but I (00:29:22) expect you to do it the first time. I'm (00:29:24) not counting to three. And and I (00:29:26) remember in my head, Dr. Cloud, I was (00:29:28) thinking, "This isn't going to work. (00:29:29) this [laughter] is not going to work. (00:29:30) >> Well, if the limit is real, it work. (00:29:32) >> It did. It did. And it was like one time (00:29:35) I think one of the children pushed it (00:29:37) one time and there was just like, okay, (00:29:39) there's a consequence whether if you (00:29:40) throw a ball in the house, we take the (00:29:42) ball. If you know, it wasn't always a (00:29:43) spanking. It wasn't always a timeout, (00:29:45) but there was a consequence that was (00:29:48) expected. (00:29:49) >> That's agency. Yeah. (00:29:50) >> That they learn I have control of (00:29:53) outcomes in my life. (00:29:55) >> Yes. (00:29:55) >> And that's the way they learn. I (00:29:56) remember when our girls got to the (00:29:58) squabbbling age where they blaming each (00:30:00) other. One of them went Olivia did this (00:30:01) and then Olivia Lucy did it first and so (00:30:04) I'll never forget this day. They they (00:30:07) were getting to the age where they could (00:30:08) kind of understand and they came and (00:30:10) were doing that. I said, "Oh, girls, (00:30:12) okay girls, hold on a second. (00:30:15) I will be glad to decide who's right and (00:30:18) who's wrong, but what you've done is (00:30:19) you've got a dispute and you've brought (00:30:21) it to daddy court." (00:30:22) >> Yeah. And now it's in daddy's court (00:30:24) >> and I'm the judge. Okay. And now here's (00:30:26) the way daddy court works. You bring me (00:30:29) your arguments about who's right and (00:30:30) who's wrong. I will decide who's right. (00:30:33) But in daddy court, there are court (00:30:35) costs. There are court fees. (00:30:38) >> So if you bring something to court, you (00:30:41) got to pay the judge. You got to pay the (00:30:42) court fees and all of that. And loser is (00:30:46) going to pay. So you're going to each (00:30:48) make your argument. I'm going to say one (00:30:49) of you is right and the other's wrong. (00:30:51) The other one's got to pay. And they go, (00:30:52) "What are the court fees?" I go, "I (00:30:54) don't know. depends on how long the (00:30:55) trial lasts. Could be your bike, could (00:30:57) be a skateboard, could be I don't know. (00:31:00) I'll know when I get there, but loser is (00:31:02) going to pay. So, I'll hear both the (00:31:04) arguments. They looked at each other and (00:31:06) said, "That's okay. We'll figure it out. (00:31:08) >> We'll resolve." (00:31:09) >> And that ended it (00:31:10) >> right now. That's kind of also (00:31:12) scriptural. Agree with your adversary (00:31:14) quickly before we take you to court. (00:31:16) Take you to daddy court. Well, Dr. (00:31:17) Cloud, (00:31:18) >> I tell you, all these principles are in (00:31:19) the Bible. (00:31:19) >> They are all in the Bible. And I love (00:31:21) how you bring it kind of around in your (00:31:23) southern gentleman kind of way like oh (00:31:26) daddy court. I mean I you know I I love (00:31:29) that idea and we do have so many young (00:31:31) moms and dads out there. You know again (00:31:34) my audience is mostly mothers that are (00:31:36) like I'm so confused. There's just so (00:31:39) much going so many different directions (00:31:41) and you've written so (00:31:42) >> and there's too many voices that are (00:31:43) saying opposite things. (00:31:44) >> What is the book you would recommend? (00:31:46) There's a young mother out there and she (00:31:48) says I I I'm I'm losing my mind with my (00:31:50) children. What would you recommend? (00:31:51) What's your What's your book? And we'll (00:31:53) put it in the show notes as well. (00:31:55) >> If they're losing their minds, what book (00:31:56) to recommend? (00:31:57) >> Go with their kids. Like, I've heard (00:31:58) this. I've heard this. And (00:32:00) >> the Narnia Chronicles. Go off in (00:32:01) fantasy. But [laughter] (00:32:03) if you're losing your No, I um (00:32:07) >> for parents. (00:32:08) >> Yeah. I've written two. John and I wrote (00:32:09) two parenting books. One is called (00:32:11) Raising Great Kids, and it's about the (00:32:14) developmental stages and how you handle, (00:32:17) you know, the different ones. And what (00:32:18) it's focused on is a great kid is a kid (00:32:22) with good character. Now, wrongly, we (00:32:26) always say character is not lying, (00:32:27) cheating, and stealing. That's not the (00:32:29) Bible's view of character. That's the (00:32:31) moral foundation of character. But (00:32:34) character includes self-control, (00:32:36) emotional regulation, empathy with (00:32:38) others, being able to handle failure, (00:32:40) all that kind of stuff. (00:32:41) >> So, the book is raising great kids, and (00:32:44) the other one is boundaries with kids. (00:32:46) >> I love that. And we said with (00:32:49) because kids learn boundaries because (00:32:53) the parent has boundaries. And so it's (00:32:55) the boundaries that you have with your (00:32:57) kids that the kids will learn (00:32:59) self-control. (00:33:00) >> I love that. Okay. (00:33:01) >> Can can I give one more little (00:33:03) >> Absolutely. (00:33:04) >> Um because I was talking about all the, (00:33:06) you know, mental health stuff and I (00:33:08) wrote a book uh last year. I've never (00:33:10) done this before. It's called Why I (00:33:13) Believe (00:33:14) >> and it's my faith story. Okay. (00:33:17) >> But it's a faith story that started with (00:33:20) really hitting bottom and getting (00:33:23) extremely depressed. (00:33:24) >> Wow. (00:33:25) >> Like non-functionally depressed. (00:33:26) >> So many people are there right now. (00:33:28) >> Yeah. And that's how it started. (00:33:30) >> And I reached out to God and it's a (00:33:31) story of is miracles and science and (00:33:36) God's healing. And then I tell a lot of (00:33:40) stories about miraculous things that God (00:33:42) did and I've seen him do. And also (00:33:46) people say, "How can you believe this (00:33:48) stuff?" The book's about why I believe. (00:33:49) So there's a lot of science in there (00:33:51) about why. But the last section is how (00:33:55) the science of psychology proved the (00:33:57) Bible to me. Because that is one area of (00:34:00) science I can claim that I'm an expert (00:34:02) in. And when I learned the science of (00:34:04) psychology, (00:34:06) I could not believe what I was reading (00:34:10) because it's exactly what the Bible (00:34:11) says. (00:34:12) >> Wow. and it goes through all those areas (00:34:14) that um areas we need to focus on in our (00:34:17) faith. (00:34:17) >> Well, we need to have you back and talk (00:34:18) just about that. But I am so thankful (00:34:21) for your work and I I I mean it like I (00:34:24) feel like I'm a better wife and parent (00:34:27) because of your consistency. I think I (00:34:30) read your boundaries book when we were (00:34:32) in one of the most difficult situations. (00:34:35) I would say we I read the book The (00:34:37) Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse and (00:34:39) Boundaries and those two were bookends (00:34:43) of freedom for me (00:34:44) >> and I just want to thank you and I'm so (00:34:46) glad that you're here in town so we can (00:34:48) get you back. I love your girls in the (00:34:50) office and yeah, just thank you Dr. (00:34:52) Cloud. I appreciate your consistency. (00:34:55) >> Thank you for having me and for all you (00:34:56) do for all those out there. (00:34:58) >> Absolutely. (00:34:59) >> It takes a village, right? (00:35:00) >> Yeah, it does. Thank We're all in this (00:35:02) uh journey towards the promised land (00:35:04) together and as we go through the (00:35:06) desert. (00:35:06) >> Yeah. (00:35:07) >> We um we need to hold hands and help (00:35:09) each other. (00:35:10) >> Absolutely. Well, I hope this has spoken (00:35:12) a lot to you. I know that Dr. Cloud I (00:35:16) watch him on Instagram. I'm sure he has (00:35:18) a YouTube channel. Is that correct? (00:35:20) >> Uh yeah. But if you go to this website, (00:35:22) boundaries.mme, (00:35:24) not.com, (00:35:25) >> boundaries.me. (00:35:26) >> Boundaries.me I have over a hundred (00:35:28) courses on there. Wow. (00:35:30) >> on all these topics. (00:35:32) >> Wow. Okay. So, you're going to want to (00:35:33) do a deep dive because you want to (00:35:35) actually have psychology that is based (00:35:38) in the Bible, not therapy that is based (00:35:40) on you. You don't get to just self (00:35:42) diagnose. You need to go to your creator (00:35:45) to find out how you are made. I love how (00:35:48) Isaiah said that God will show us the (00:35:50) way he works so we can live the way we (00:35:53) were made. And I just believe today is (00:35:56) just a a little bit of a pulling back of (00:35:58) the curtain for how we were made to be (00:36:00) parents. And we're going to get Dr. (00:36:02) Cloud back. I I can hear all the single (00:36:04) girls out there saying, "Wait, wait. We (00:36:07) need to know more." I believe that you (00:36:09) can go to that website and you can do a (00:36:12) deep dive and get health and strength. I (00:36:14) don't want you sabotaging your life (00:36:16) anymore. And I'm so glad you were able (00:36:18) to join us. If you have liked this, we (00:36:21) want to hear from you. So rate and (00:36:23) subscribe to the Lisa Bevere podcast. (00:36:25) Thank you, Dr. Cloud. (00:36:26) >> Thank you. It's good to be here. (00:36:27) >> It's great to be here.