How To Be a Great Parent and a Great Boss – Robert Glazer (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:02) Robert Glazer, welcome to Dad Saves (00:00:03) America. (00:00:04) >> Thanks for having me, John. (00:00:05) >> So, we got introduced by a mutual (00:00:07) friend. You run a very large marketing (00:00:10) firm called Acceleration Partners, but (00:00:12) you also blog and write and talk about (00:00:15) work and life and values. You have this (00:00:16) new book, The Compass Within, which (00:00:19) before we started rolling, I said I did (00:00:21) not read, but we get to talk about. And (00:00:23) uh and the themes, as I understand it, (00:00:25) are are really important. So, I guess (00:00:27) let's just start here. Why write a book (00:00:30) about values (00:00:32) as a narrative, as a kind of fiction? (00:00:35) >> Yeah. So, there's a there's a whole (00:00:38) thing about how I got there. So, about (00:00:40) 2013, uh, I went to a just as our (00:00:43) company was starting to grow and I was (00:00:46) having to figure stuff out. Uh, I went (00:00:48) to a global leadership program with (00:00:50) entrepreneurs organization in DC with (00:00:52) about 20 people. And I thought, it was a (00:00:54) 5-day program. It was pretty intense. (00:00:55) And I thought, I'm going to get here and (00:00:56) learn all these tactical things about (00:00:58) how to manage people. Uh, and the first (00:01:00) two days were just like a big mirror. (00:01:02) And I was like, who are you and what do (00:01:04) you value? And you got to figure this (00:01:06) out first, you know, before you want to (00:01:08) figure out how you're going to lead. And (00:01:10) that was very compelling. And I was (00:01:11) like, wow, I'm a very values-based (00:01:13) person. I feel it deeply. However, I (00:01:15) can't articulate exactly what they are. (00:01:18) Um, and nor did they give us the answer (00:01:20) there. Not cuz they were hiding it from (00:01:22) us because there wasn't a great process. (00:01:24) And so I spent sort of three to six (00:01:26) months figuring that out. I I came away (00:01:28) with these five core values, you know, (00:01:30) that I I started realigning my family (00:01:32) and business and life around that. And I (00:01:35) always joke everything everyone reads in (00:01:36) my bio is after that moment. So I I (00:01:40) actually brought that back what I (00:01:42) figured out to our leadership (00:01:43) development programs and we started (00:01:45) teaching our leaders how to understand (00:01:46) their core values because I think that's (00:01:48) where authentic leadership comes from. (00:01:50) And when we get into it, like there's a (00:01:52) lot of reason these values go to depth (00:01:54) and childhood stuff that's going to be (00:01:56) with you. So you're either you're (00:01:57) working with it or it's driving the car (00:02:00) uh for you. Um and I had my book (00:02:02) elevated at the time and I talked about (00:02:03) this concept of spiritual capacity and (00:02:05) understanding your strengths and what (00:02:06) you value. And people would be like (00:02:07) great I want to I want to do that. And (00:02:09) I'd be like well I don't I can give you (00:02:11) some I don't really have the thing and (00:02:13) we've been doing this program at our (00:02:14) company but after doing it four or five (00:02:16) times I was like wow I have a process (00:02:18) that works. So, I turned it into a (00:02:19) course, told people about it. 2,000 (00:02:21) people took it. So, more they'd write me (00:02:24) all these amazing notes. And I'm like, I (00:02:25) kind of want to get this to more people. (00:02:27) But a lot of people aren't going to jump (00:02:28) into a course. I've written some books. (00:02:31) And I just had this vision of like (00:02:33) writing this book called Core Values or (00:02:34) on values and no one wanting to read it (00:02:37) because when, you know, they hear the (00:02:39) topic, they're like, "Yeah, I know what (00:02:40) this is or whatever." And it seems vague (00:02:42) and it seems a little obtuse and um (00:02:45) >> abstract. (00:02:46) >> Abstract. Yeah. More than obtuse. It (00:02:47) seems vague and abstract and and I'm a (00:02:49) big fan of Patrick Lencion and Bob Berg (00:02:52) and actually my daughter who I'm always (00:02:54) challenging to do things outside of her (00:02:56) comfort zone happened one day said you (00:02:58) know your whole world's non-fiction you (00:03:00) read non-fiction you write non-fiction (00:03:02) you should write a fiction book and it (00:03:04) sort of clicked for me one day when I (00:03:06) was thinking that that being like I (00:03:07) think I could engage people in this more (00:03:09) if I could show it to them or in a story (00:03:13) rather than just tell it to them. I have (00:03:15) never done this before, but I could try. (00:03:17) And so I sat down and I tried to write a (00:03:20) a parable, which was fun, but it was (00:03:22) hard. It's in fiction, you actually need (00:03:24) the whole non-fiction, you kind of need (00:03:27) the whole structure before you start, or (00:03:29) else it kind of ends up a mess. Fiction, (00:03:31) you're just you can write, but I never (00:03:34) had to keep track of character (00:03:35) development or time or any of these (00:03:38) things. So, that was basically how it (00:03:40) came full circle was how do I get this (00:03:41) idea to more people cuz I think it's (00:03:43) really life-changing um but in a way (00:03:46) that makes it addressable and (00:03:48) understandable. (00:03:50) >> All right, I'll keep this quick. If you (00:03:52) like what you're hearing and want to (00:03:53) hear more, don't forget to hit that like (00:03:55) button and subscribe to the channel so (00:03:57) you won't miss our new content as it (00:03:59) comes out every week. And now back to (00:04:01) the conversation. (00:04:03) I um one of the sort of big influence in (00:04:07) my life is an economist named uh Russ (00:04:09) Roberts and he's actually done a similar (00:04:11) thing with several of his books. Uh the (00:04:13) price of everything being one of them (00:04:14) where he took economics and tried to put (00:04:16) it into a personal kind of narrative (00:04:19) structure. It's tough. Uh the goal is (00:04:21) one of the famous books on operations (00:04:24) ever and it's a parable like on on uh (00:04:27) the theory of constraints and it's told (00:04:29) through a story of a factory and it's (00:04:30) super instead of a boring book on it's a (00:04:33) super engaging story about how do you (00:04:35) figure out where the bottleneck is in (00:04:37) the business. I think um you know my (00:04:41) background is in film and in documentary (00:04:44) and so one of the things that I've (00:04:45) always I've thought a fair amount about (00:04:47) is like what is the purpose of story (00:04:49) right because I'm I'm also Catholic I'm (00:04:52) a Christian so Jesus taught in parables (00:04:55) like I think in some ways you could say (00:04:57) story is this thing that we developed as (00:05:00) a creature (00:05:01) >> to impart moral knowledge that's (00:05:03) >> that's how he taught for years right you (00:05:05) passed along stories (00:05:06) >> Grim's fairy tales the I mean the moral (00:05:09) of the story is like a is a easy (00:05:12) mimemetic phrase I think for a reason. (00:05:14) So what is the moral of the story? Um (00:05:16) I'm going to save the plot for people (00:05:18) who can buy the book. But let's get to (00:05:21) the underlying philosophy, the five (00:05:23) values. Um I do feel like we're in a (00:05:26) time where our our kids (00:05:29) are struggling with this. They're (00:05:30) struggling with how to think about what (00:05:31) their values are and where to draw them (00:05:34) from. So what are your what are these (00:05:36) five? Let's break it down. Yeah. So, so (00:05:38) in terms of my values, yeah, which is (00:05:40) not the book is not about my values. And (00:05:42) just to queue in your storytelling (00:05:43) thing, I think (00:05:44) >> look, there's a protagonist in the (00:05:46) story, Jamie Hines, but people who have (00:05:48) read the preview copy have said to me, (00:05:50) "Oh, I I saw myself in that moment. I (00:05:52) had that disc he's just a refle I think (00:05:54) that's what stories give us. They give (00:05:55) us a reflection where it's a prompt (00:05:57) where we can put ourselves in that story (00:05:59) and the character." Um, so yeah, the the (00:06:02) the the moral is there's there's a (00:06:05) framework that that that I have (00:06:07) developed that Jamie gets coached (00:06:09) through by a mentor that I think can (00:06:11) help people identify their definitive (00:06:13) actionable core values and then they can (00:06:15) make lots of better decisions. Mine are (00:06:17) my dominant core value is to to find a (00:06:20) better way and share it. That's (00:06:21) literally why I'm sitting here today. (00:06:23) That's what the book is about. um (00:06:26) self-reliance, health and vitality, uh (00:06:29) long-term uh orientation, and uh now uh (00:06:33) I'm I'm forgetting the fifth one right (00:06:35) now. Oh, respectful authenticity uh is (00:06:38) uh is is is one that's kind of unique (00:06:41) for me and actually directly led to the (00:06:43) TED talk, you know, that we'll talk (00:06:44) about at some point. (00:06:45) >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, let repeat these (00:06:48) for me one more time so I can bake them (00:06:49) into my head. So, uh go for it. (00:06:52) >> Yeah. So, uh, find a better way and (00:06:54) share it. Yep. (00:06:55) >> Long-term orientation, respectful (00:06:57) authenticity, uh, health and vitality, (00:07:01) and, uh, self-reliance. (00:07:03) >> So, (00:07:05) find a better way and share it. Very (00:07:08) entrepreneurial. (00:07:10) >> It's a common orientation. Uh, I've done (00:07:14) like the Y stuff, the derivative stuff, (00:07:16) Simon Synynic, and it's a very common (00:07:17) thing for founders of companies. (00:07:20) >> What is that all about? And how can (00:07:22) somebody who doesn't see themsself as an (00:07:23) entrepreneur um like root that as a (00:07:28) value? That's an it's an interesting (00:07:29) thing to think about as a value. I'm (00:07:31) processing that. Uh how do you think (00:07:33) about it as a value? (00:07:34) >> Yeah. So it's interesting in that in the (00:07:36) wording of how you said that is I we'll (00:07:38) get into this getting your actual core (00:07:41) value. It is not aspirational. These are (00:07:44) not things that you want to be. In fact, (00:07:45) there's an epiphous moment that that (00:07:47) Jamie has in the book when he figures (00:07:49) them all out. And I always tell people (00:07:51) when it happens, I can watch it in their (00:07:52) face. It's like someone gave them a (00:07:54) stencil and they start placing it back (00:07:56) on 16 and 18 in that job and they're (00:07:58) like, "Oh, all makes sense." Now I get (00:08:00) hated it, loved it, hated her, loved (00:08:03) him. Like it kind of all makes sense. (00:08:06) So, so, uh, look, and they tend to come (00:08:09) from things that are pretty, you know, (00:08:11) formative. And I think uh uh I when I (00:08:14) when I do my presentations, I I start (00:08:16) with uh actually these 5 years of report (00:08:19) cards that I got that were all pretty (00:08:20) horrible saying like, you know, I was a (00:08:22) pretty entrepreneurial kid. I like to (00:08:24) color outside the lines. You know, (00:08:26) elementary school likes you to sit down (00:08:28) and be quiet and follow instructions. So (00:08:30) the things that I was actually good at, (00:08:33) um people kind of told me, you know, (00:08:35) don't don't do those. And literally, you (00:08:37) know, my framework is capacity building. (00:08:40) these five report cards was like (00:08:42) basically all said a different version (00:08:43) of the same thing. He seems really (00:08:45) capable but we just can't motivate him (00:08:47) to do anything and I know he can do (00:08:49) better work. That was what the fifth (00:08:50) grade teacher said. She just gave up. So (00:08:53) it's a very personal after years of (00:08:55) being told you know hey like you you can (00:08:58) seem to do better you know that sort of (00:09:00) stayed with me and then at some point it (00:09:01) flipped for me. I figured out what I (00:09:03) liked and then it just became a almost (00:09:06) like an overdrive thing to the point (00:09:07) where it can also become negative. But (00:09:09) my mom would tell you to this day, she (00:09:11) would tell me to clean my room as a kid (00:09:12) and I would rearrange the whole thing. (00:09:14) Like I just I like to figure it out and (00:09:16) I'm not I I'm people with a stealth (00:09:18) company. I'm like if you know something (00:09:20) and it can help like to like why (00:09:22) wouldn't you share that? So that that's (00:09:25) it's just unique to me. (00:09:28) >> This um this sense of having more (00:09:32) capability than you're exploiting is (00:09:34) something that resonates with me um as a (00:09:36) father. I feel like without sharing too (00:09:40) much of our home life stories, I think I (00:09:42) have a tendency to do that probably too (00:09:44) much. Um, this is the struggle I feel (00:09:47) like we a lot of us have as parents with (00:09:48) our kids, especially our kids right now (00:09:50) who are (00:09:52) >> like are struggling. Um, and actually my (00:09:55) my son's doing fine, but he we had I had (00:09:59) a conversation with him recently where (00:10:01) he actually kind of said, (00:10:02) >> "I've realized I haven't um been being (00:10:07) hard enough on myself in a certain sense (00:10:10) or like not pushing myself hard enough (00:10:12) like I've sort of skated by being smart (00:10:14) enough to kind of do the minimum." (00:10:16) >> That's how I would have defined my (00:10:18) child. I was I was good enough to get (00:10:21) by. But the real inner frustration was (00:10:24) knowing that I was smarter and that I (00:10:26) was not knowing that you're not meeting (00:10:28) your potential is a really painful (00:10:31) thing. So it wouldn't be surprising that (00:10:33) someone who felt that way for a long (00:10:35) time uh would then you know develop this (00:10:39) thing called capacity. Again we do these (00:10:41) things pain and purpose lie close to (00:10:42) each other. We don't even realize you (00:10:45) know how connected it is. I I think no (00:10:47) one wants to live below their potential. (00:10:48) The problem is people are kind of told (00:10:51) about their potential through the (00:10:53) expectations of what others want from (00:10:55) them and not like who are you and what (00:10:57) do you value and what would good look (00:10:58) like for you. Good for me wasn't sitting (00:11:00) down, you know, being quiet following (00:11:03) the lines. That wasn't good. The Dave (00:11:05) Randelle, do you know who Dave is? He (00:11:07) Dave Dave uh is this like 6'7 massive (00:11:10) ADD guy. Uh he wears all pink and he has (00:11:12) this book called The Freak Factor. And I (00:11:14) when Dave spoke, he goes, "My whole life (00:11:16) people told me to sit down, shut up, and (00:11:19) whatever the third thing was." And in (00:11:21) class, he's like, "I literally get paid (00:11:23) to stand up, talk around, walk, and and (00:11:27) go off script. If you as younger and you (00:11:29) would have said to me, you can make a (00:11:31) career doing that," he would have been (00:11:33) like, "That I'm good at that. I want I (00:11:35) want to do that." But no one ever told (00:11:36) me that that was something that I could (00:11:38) do. Um, how do you think about (00:11:43) un how do you understand potential (00:11:46) because and I you know partly because as (00:11:50) an employer you're dealing with a lot of (00:11:52) people and and I and we're going to get (00:11:53) later in our conversation to this (00:11:55) because you've got I think really good (00:11:56) things to say about trying to be create (00:12:00) a humane work environment and your (00:12:01) company is very well rated on that (00:12:02) regard as far as employees and you've (00:12:05) really put yourself out there for that. (00:12:06) But when you are managing people, you're (00:12:09) trying to assess like their potential to (00:12:11) some extent and you're trying to h help (00:12:13) them meet it and exceed it (00:12:16) >> if you're doing your job right. The same (00:12:19) is true as a parent to some extent. I (00:12:21) almost feel like as parents we have (00:12:22) less. It's like it's so much more (00:12:25) complex. So like and we're so biased (00:12:28) because we love our kids. (00:12:29) >> Yeah. (00:12:30) >> That like (00:12:31) >> it's hard to think about like do I have (00:12:33) a good ass? Do I even know what my kid's (00:12:35) potential is? is like how do you think (00:12:37) about that? How do you think about like (00:12:39) >> knowing someone else's potential and (00:12:41) knowing your own potential (00:12:42) >> and not polluting it with your I saw a (00:12:45) child a child development specialist. (00:12:47) She's one of the top people out there. (00:12:49) She spoke to a group and she said why (00:12:51) did you all have kids and they all (00:12:52) answered and she's like you're all wrong (00:12:54) basically and it was like every one of (00:12:56) you told me something that's about you (00:12:58) know not about them. And so I think it's (00:13:00) hard, right, in terms of, you know, am I (00:13:02) thinking of the potential like, oh, I (00:13:04) think you should be a doctor and why is (00:13:06) that? Or you've seen these crazy sports (00:13:08) parents. The pathology of a lot of the (00:13:10) crazy sports parents is that they (00:13:12) weren't good enough and they want their (00:13:14) kid to be better, right? That's a lot to (00:13:16) put on your kid. (00:13:17) >> Tiger Woods dad getting him started at (00:13:19) six. (00:13:20) >> Yeah. I mean, all this club sport stuff (00:13:21) and the kids are all burning out by 16. (00:13:23) You can't play a sport 5 days a week if (00:13:25) you don't love it. like eventually even (00:13:27) if you're good you're you're going to (00:13:29) burn out. So I I think it's encouraging (00:13:32) people to understand what's important to (00:13:33) them, what their skills are, what (00:13:35) they're good at, how can they do it. You (00:13:37) know my my kids are all very different (00:13:39) students, but when I talk to the you (00:13:41) know you know one of them in particular (00:13:43) I think about it's like hey like you (00:13:45) know like did you really do what you (00:13:47) could do like on this? Like did you did (00:13:49) you study as much? I get it if you don't (00:13:51) get it if it's not your thing, but like (00:13:53) did you really do the best that that you (00:13:56) can do? So this is this is it's funny (00:13:58) the next book I have is actually a a (00:14:01) curious look at why parenting and (00:14:04) leadership have diverged in such (00:14:06) different directions when things that we (00:14:08) have come to accept in the workplace as (00:14:11) horrible leadership and things you would (00:14:13) never want from your boss are are (00:14:14) dominant parenting uh step that doesn't (00:14:17) make any sense to me particularly when (00:14:19) people cross over into both sides. Like (00:14:22) we know that the number one thing in the (00:14:24) workplace that people will tell you is (00:14:26) is horrible and debilitating and (00:14:28) everything is micromanagement. Hate it. (00:14:30) Right. (00:14:31) >> Yes. (00:14:32) >> If you're tracking me, (00:14:34) >> also known as snowplow parenting, right? (00:14:36) >> So, you're you're not letting me answer (00:14:38) things. You're interfering. Like it it's (00:14:40) it's you would be put on a performance (00:14:43) review, you know, if if all of your (00:14:46) people said that you micromanage them. (00:14:47) And it's dominant form of parenting (00:14:49) these days. I'm tracking you. I'm (00:14:51) calling your coach. I'm interfering. All (00:14:53) this stuff. So, in the aggregate, why do (00:14:56) I think we've gotten I think we've (00:14:57) gotten here because I think it was very (00:14:59) noble a couple generations ago when you (00:15:02) had an objectively hard life and you (00:15:04) worked in a mine and you worked in these (00:15:07) jobs that had no security and health to (00:15:08) want better for your kids. I think (00:15:10) wanting better for your kids has far (00:15:12) past reach diminishing returns. My kids (00:15:15) do not need better. They don't need (00:15:17) better than anything I had or otherwise. (00:15:19) The best thing I can do is help them (00:15:21) figure out each of them and try to (00:15:25) cultivate whatever that capacity and was (00:15:27) each of them. And it's got to be (00:15:28) different, right? A lot of parents have (00:15:29) the program. You're going to go on the (00:15:30) program and it's going to be the (00:15:32) standard program. I two kids in public (00:15:34) school, one kid in private school. They (00:15:36) needed different things. (00:15:38) >> I um I have a bias on the education (00:15:41) front that I've talked a lot about on (00:15:43) this channel, which is towards (00:15:45) self-directedness. (00:15:46) And one of my favorite new friends is a (00:15:49) woman named Katherine Burbiling who (00:15:52) says, "That's all a bunch of progressive (00:15:53) hogwash. It's all terrible and you've (00:15:55) done terrible disservice to your kid by (00:15:57) having all that be the thing you chose." (00:16:00) Kids need knowledge. They need to be (00:16:02) given they need to be taught knowledge, (00:16:06) not how to think. They have nothing (00:16:09) about which to use their thinking to do. (00:16:11) They need to be given raw material in (00:16:12) the form of knowledge. And then (00:16:15) later when they have knowledge, (00:16:18) they have a sense of what history is. (00:16:21) Then they can start to understand what (00:16:23) their values are, how to think, who they (00:16:25) are. (00:16:26) >> That's your take or her take. (00:16:27) >> That's her take. (00:16:28) >> That's her take. (00:16:28) >> I find her increasingly persuasive. And (00:16:30) I don't know if it's I'm getting older. (00:16:32) >> Split on that. Yeah. But but when we (00:16:34) think about values and we think about (00:16:36) our kids (00:16:38) >> h (00:16:39) >> how do you think about value formation (00:16:41) like where does that start as a parent (00:16:44) um (00:16:45) >> and for you like where is that coming (00:16:47) from cuz like our kids are just like (00:16:49) little crazy monsters. (00:16:51) >> Yeah. (00:16:51) >> So their values are Yeah. you know from (00:16:53) an early age are like (00:16:55) >> pure selfishness and narcissism (00:16:57) >> right? (00:16:58) >> So they need to get it from somewhere. (00:17:00) How do you think about that? So (00:17:04) there's a lot of intersecting circles (00:17:06) here. I think and this book is a (00:17:08) proponent of you and your partner should (00:17:10) have your own clear values. Now in a (00:17:12) good world they're going to want to (00:17:14) intersect. I always say like and you can (00:17:15) have this is a magnet right you can have (00:17:17) a little points that are off. If this is (00:17:19) an inverse magnet you got you got (00:17:21) problems. And I'm talking in the book I (00:17:23) I actually do not think a relationship (00:17:25) or community or a vocation can work if (00:17:28) you have you know huge disconnect on the (00:17:30) value. So my wife and I have different (00:17:33) values like not and I should say not the (00:17:35) same identical values but and we are (00:17:37) different people but we we agree on the (00:17:39) big stuff and and we always have. We sat (00:17:42) down with our kids uh you know early on (00:17:44) and we let them help co-create you know (00:17:46) those those family values. And what I've (00:17:49) noticed from people that have done this (00:17:50) is instead of rules I find it much more (00:17:53) values in a company if you have three or (00:17:55) four good values the combination of (00:17:56) those can save you hundreds of pages of (00:17:58) a a manual. One of the best CEOs I know (00:18:00) know who had great company value said (00:18:02) anyone who makes the decision of one or (00:18:04) more of our values in service of the (00:18:06) business is always safe. That's a pretty (00:18:08) bold declaration. You also probably (00:18:10) shouldn't have a company value. Do (00:18:12) whatever it takes if if if that's what (00:18:14) you want. (00:18:15) >> So we sat down with our kids years ago (00:18:17) and we had them sort of co-create them (00:18:18) and we put them up on a wall and we (00:18:20) tried to (00:18:22) >> use them. So they were they were and (00:18:24) they were simpler because they were for (00:18:25) kids and they were be happy and healthy. (00:18:28) um be respectful, resilient, and (00:18:30) responsible and and be kind. Um and I (00:18:33) joke around that I think one of my (00:18:35) favorite moments as a parent was in a (00:18:38) parent teacher conference where I think (00:18:39) those were six words and the teacher (00:18:41) used four of them in one of my kids sort (00:18:43) of writeups, you know, there this that (00:18:45) and that. And so let's go to like the be (00:18:48) healthy because that's that that's for (00:18:49) me and and for them. So look, we might (00:18:52) be having a conversation about one kid (00:18:54) who is skipping meals, right? and and (00:18:56) and instead of saying, you know, don't (00:18:59) do that or you can't do that or (00:19:00) whatever, be like, hey, that's not (00:19:02) healthy. Similarly, with a different (00:19:04) kid, we might be having a discussion, (00:19:05) hey, the fourth brownie, (00:19:08) not not healthy. Not you can't do it or (00:19:10) otherwise. And and one of my favorite (00:19:12) stories a guy told me on my podcast on (00:19:14) this was his daughter was going out for (00:19:17) uh her prom and they were about to (00:19:18) negotiate over curfew and let's say he (00:19:21) was like he was like he wanted her home (00:19:23) by like 1:00 a.m. you know and and she (00:19:25) was like so what's my curfew now? He (00:19:26) could have said here's an arbitrary rule (00:19:28) which has a lot of power dynamics to it. (00:19:30) He said look sweetie (00:19:32) you know your mom and I are going to be (00:19:35) probably awake until you get home and (00:19:37) nervous. it's a it's a lot of people are (00:19:38) on the road or whatever, so you pick (00:19:40) what you think is fair, but like you (00:19:42) know, we're probably we won't really get (00:19:43) to sleep until you get home. And she was (00:19:44) like, "How's 12?" (00:19:46) >> And he was like, "That's great." Um, but (00:19:48) when he presented it in that way, it was (00:19:50) it was totally different. So I, you (00:19:52) know, I have a friend who says, I won't (00:19:53) say the family name, although in this (00:19:55) case, he says, "The Smiths, we do not (00:19:57) lie, right?" And that is his constant (00:19:59) thing. Look, there might be a lot of (00:20:00) other things, but or I have another one (00:20:02) family from Austin. and he goes the the (00:20:04) you know the Jackson family we do hard (00:20:06) things. Um so you can say these things (00:20:10) but the question is you know do you do (00:20:12) them and I I try to use those words as (00:20:15) much as I can like hey like this is one (00:20:17) of those times you just need to be (00:20:19) resilient like it sucks you need to get (00:20:21) through it. Um and that's how the same (00:20:24) thing in a company they only become (00:20:25) meaningful if you if you kind of live (00:20:29) them and look I'll give you kind of an (00:20:31) example of this. Yeah. um where where uh (00:20:35) I one of my favorite inventions um for (00:20:38) my kids was these this this harness that (00:20:41) this dual locking harness that basically (00:20:43) let self obstacle courses happen because (00:20:46) if you clip one side the other side (00:20:47) unclips so they design you could (00:20:49) basically go on a whole obstacle course (00:20:51) in the trees by yourself and pick like (00:20:53) green blue and black. Um you can't I (00:20:56) love things that are safe and (00:20:57) uncomfortable for my kids. I think (00:20:58) that's the magic quadrant. You can't get (00:21:00) hurt, but you can be pretty (00:21:02) uncomfortable. (00:21:03) >> That's that's good parenting from my (00:21:05) from my perspective. So, for sure. (00:21:07) >> So, my son's 10 and I have the picture (00:21:10) and I use it in a presentation and we're (00:21:11) doing the pretty hard medium course and (00:21:13) he gets halfway up this really tough (00:21:16) exercise and I got to it and it was (00:21:17) actually like an awesome picture because (00:21:19) he was coming up this thing. So, I took (00:21:22) out my camera to take a picture and he (00:21:24) had a complete meltdown like a second (00:21:27) later and he was like, "I can't like I (00:21:29) can't. You have to come get me." And (00:21:32) every other parent around is like, (00:21:33) "Yeah, go get him." Like, and I was (00:21:35) like, "Bud, you're totally fine." (00:21:38) >> Um, and and I was not going to rescue (00:21:40) him because he was uncomfortable, but he (00:21:42) was entirely physically safe. And I was (00:21:46) like, "You, you can stop, take a breath, (00:21:48) you can totally get through this." (00:21:50) walked them through it. Again, people (00:21:51) are look like if they could have shot (00:21:53) me, the other parents, they would have. (00:21:55) But these are the parents who at any (00:21:56) sign of uh discomfort, they want to jump (00:21:59) in. So, this is how it plays forward. He (00:22:02) makes it to the other side. We finished (00:22:04) the course. We're there a month later. (00:22:07) Uh he and his friends, he's running (00:22:08) through and showing them all how to do (00:22:10) it. Three months later, (00:22:13) the Patriots make the Super Bowl. He's (00:22:16) not even 11 years old. Um, I think he (00:22:19) gained a ton of confidence that day by (00:22:21) doing that. And the next time around, (00:22:23) uh, my father-in-law are going, he's (00:22:25) like begging to come with us all week. (00:22:27) We couldn't get him a ticket. Uh, like (00:22:30) he had been writing in his like he had (00:22:33) dreams about them being at the Super (00:22:34) Bowl. He had this vision board with Tom (00:22:36) Brady in the Super Bowl for more than he (00:22:38) made in the past. I get to the airport (00:22:40) as we're about to leave and all of a (00:22:42) sudden and I was like, "Bud, we're (00:22:43) coming back on this special flight and (00:22:44) there are no seats and I don't even have (00:22:46) a ticket." and and there was a ticket. (00:22:48) And so I I grabbed the the flight back. (00:22:50) That was the hard thing, getting back. (00:22:51) And then I text this guy on a plane and (00:22:53) there's a there's a there's a ticket uh (00:22:55) he has a ticket for the Super Bowl, like (00:22:57) an extra ticket. And so now I'm like, my (00:22:59) wife was going to kill me when I called (00:23:01) her. And I was like, so I just have to (00:23:02) figure out how to get him there. So (00:23:03) there's one flight that leaves at 7:00 (00:23:05) a.m. from Boston to Houston. It's 4 and (00:23:07) 1/2 hour flight. He's a 10 and a half (00:23:09) years old. Never flown on a plane by (00:23:11) himself. Called him like, but I Super (00:23:14) Bowl. But uh first we got to talk to mom (00:23:16) about to take us to the airport, but (00:23:17) you're going to have to fly by yourself (00:23:19) on this plane for 4 and 1/2 hours. He's (00:23:21) like, "Dad, I got it. I'm in." We saw (00:23:23) the Super Bowl. We were at the greatest (00:23:24) Super Bowl ever, the comeback. And I am (00:23:27) convinced to this day that that moment (00:23:29) on the obstacle course was a series of (00:23:33) events around his confidence that led a (00:23:34) 10 or 11year-old to be like, I'll go fly (00:23:36) by myself for 4 and a half hours to be (00:23:38) able to do something that he wanted to (00:23:39) do. I um I I have a somewhat similar and (00:23:43) somewhat similarly bougie story. (00:23:47) >> Yes, this is first world struggle. Let's (00:23:48) be clear. (00:23:51) >> But but actually the first world (00:23:52) struggles, but it's more relevant (00:23:55) because these are the things that people (00:23:57) are trying to save people from versus (00:23:59) real physical hardship. Right. Well, it (00:24:03) is interest. This channel began because (00:24:07) of my own personal observations about (00:24:10) the anxieties that my son's (00:24:14) >> friends were experiencing who are again (00:24:16) like relatively well off. It's not like (00:24:18) we're billionaires, but we're we do (00:24:20) relatively well (00:24:22) >> going to a private school. Why are all (00:24:24) these kids anxious? Their life is great. (00:24:26) What are you anxious about? So, and I (00:24:29) actually think that the rates of anxiety (00:24:32) are worse among the relatively well off. (00:24:35) >> They are 100% in the data. Everyone (00:24:37) doing worse has the most means and (00:24:39) resources. (00:24:40) >> Yeah. And it's like and I um my views on (00:24:44) immigration at large are in flux in a (00:24:46) lot of ways, but I'm generally much more (00:24:48) pro immigration than our dialogue these (00:24:50) days. Yeah. And um one of the reasons is (00:24:53) like I just know a lot of immigrants who (00:24:55) come here including people who work for (00:24:56) me and they just have grit and they are (00:24:59) like the most American as I understand (00:25:01) it. Like the most American mindset the (00:25:04) get things done (00:25:06) be persevere have grit (00:25:08) >> family community. (00:25:10) >> Yeah. And we're in tech. We're sitting (00:25:11) here in Texas. A lot of Mexican families (00:25:14) are exemplars of this. actually like (00:25:16) Latinos, Latino immigrants I think are (00:25:19) the largest (00:25:21) entrepreneity (00:25:30) is the mother of all all of it. Yeah. (00:25:32) around us. There's a hiking mountain (00:25:34) near us. And uh what I have noticed is (00:25:37) in the morning on a Saturday, mostly (00:25:40) Hispanic families, they have these (00:25:41) massive tensed ups, barbecue, whole (00:25:44) families, football, and I'm like, "God, (00:25:46) everyone everyone could benefit from (00:25:48) that." Like, and and the and the (00:25:49) well-off families are not together, and (00:25:51) one's a club soccer, and the other's a (00:25:53) baseball and one's at Russian Math. And (00:25:55) I'm thinking to myself, (00:25:57) >> this is all backwards. I have um this is (00:26:00) getting off the beaten trail a little (00:26:01) bit, but I have this very lowresolution (00:26:04) subject to change hypothesis that's sort (00:26:06) of like cycles of history. And that is (00:26:08) that the sort of northern let's say (00:26:12) northern Anglo ethos that founded (00:26:15) America, the sort of Protestant work (00:26:17) ethic that I think is almost like (00:26:19) weather. The weather played a role. Like (00:26:21) if you to survive cold winters in the UK (00:26:24) and Scotland and the Nordic countries, (00:26:26) >> you need to it's hard. It's like you you (00:26:29) need to save now for tomorrow because (00:26:31) you're not going to be able to have (00:26:33) crops in the winter. It's like you see (00:26:35) this pattern that like the north and (00:26:38) cold produces (00:26:40) something like the Protestant work ethic (00:26:42) >> and the south and I'm southern Italian (00:26:44) by descent so like I'm ragging on my own (00:26:47) genetics here tend to be lazy because (00:26:50) the weather's nice and because you don't (00:26:51) need to think about the future you can (00:26:53) just sort of pluck the fruit from the (00:26:54) tree in the present and so I feel like (00:26:56) America (00:26:58) overindexes (00:27:00) or has historically for the northern (00:27:02) Protestant work ethic (00:27:04) And we're now at this weird point where (00:27:06) we're trying like (00:27:09) >> we don't integrate (00:27:11) >> well because (00:27:12) >> culturally the southern thing the (00:27:14) southern000 (00:27:16) with two homes want want easier for (00:27:18) their kids. They want to make their life (00:27:20) easier. I mean, I talk to people who (00:27:22) have made a lot of money and they're (00:27:25) really want to make more money and why? (00:27:27) Why? And I'm like, what? So, you can you (00:27:29) can entitle and mess up multiple gen (00:27:31) like you're you're worried about your (00:27:33) great grandkids? You think it'd be cool (00:27:34) if your great grandkids never had to (00:27:36) work a day in their life? Like I it (00:27:39) doesn't historically that has never (00:27:41) proven to be a really good thing (00:27:43) >> and it doesn't work. And it's like so I (00:27:45) think there's like this north south (00:27:47) fusion thing that's part of our cultural (00:27:50) struggles right now. (00:27:52) >> Um (00:27:52) >> you were gonna tell this story. (00:27:54) >> Oh just real quick bougie story. (00:27:56) >> My my bougie story is that when my son's (00:27:58) best friend Mario uh his family moved to (00:28:00) London when he in after third grade and (00:28:04) so we actually (00:28:04) >> the same thing happened (00:28:06) >> and it was really a bummer. And and God (00:28:07) bless the internet because they're still (00:28:09) friends. (00:28:09) >> Yeah. (00:28:10) >> And that would have been impossible. (00:28:11) Like it used to be like if your friends (00:28:14) moved a couple if if your friends moved (00:28:16) more than (00:28:17) >> and you never heard from them again. (00:28:18) >> If they moved more than a 30 minute (00:28:20) drive, it was like they vanished from (00:28:22) reality, never to be heard from again. I (00:28:24) had a a neighbor Seth parents moved not (00:28:27) that far, vanished, right? Never to be (00:28:29) heard from again. So, um, (00:28:32) >> we put Matteo at 10 years old on a plane (00:28:34) to London by himself. And we were (00:28:36) comfortable with that for very same (00:28:38) almost ideological reasons like he (00:28:40) should this is exciting for him. I can't (00:28:43) afford to fly us all out there. (00:28:45) >> As a chaperone, right, twice (00:28:48) >> like I and I can't take off work and but (00:28:51) he he can visit us. (00:28:52) >> Nothing is going to h like in the world (00:28:54) of cell phones and whatever. My parents (00:28:57) put my sister she talks about this day (00:28:59) on a she went to the wedding of one of (00:29:01) our like nannies when you were young (00:29:03) younger who helped out who got older and (00:29:05) and she was like 8 years old and went on (00:29:08) a you know you on a connecting flight by (00:29:10) herself. There are no cell phones or yet (00:29:12) she survived. Like these are these are (00:29:15) they seem like really hard but they're (00:29:17) such first world problems that you don't (00:29:20) even realize. Right. (00:29:21) >> So you have um this practice of of (00:29:27) resilience of figuring out that you have (00:29:30) capacity. So your son is hanging there (00:29:33) terrified and he's terrified at least in (00:29:37) part probably because he just doesn't (00:29:38) think he can solve the problem. (00:29:40) >> He's gassed. He's physically and (00:29:41) mentally tired and he thinks he can't do (00:29:44) it. Yeah. (00:29:45) >> So that lesson that I can do the thing I (00:29:50) didn't think I can do (00:29:53) >> so empowering. (00:29:55) >> Yeah. Talk about that cuz that I feel (00:29:57) like we I feel like that's the lesson (00:29:59) that's the hardest one. (00:30:01) >> Well, this is the savior. So So let go (00:30:04) back. We are hardwired as parents to (00:30:07) biologically protect our kids from (00:30:09) danger. And and you know all the people (00:30:11) say this the worst time in the history (00:30:12) of the world. Let's just go back like 70 (00:30:14) years 100 200 300 foraging for food like (00:30:17) it's a little bit different. Most of (00:30:19) those dangers were physical right in (00:30:21) these old worlds. But this this (00:30:23) biological protection mechanism that we (00:30:25) have doesn't go away. So what's the been (00:30:28) the real problem in the 2030 years? (00:30:30) We're using it to shield them from (00:30:32) emotional (00:30:34) uh emotional danger. And it turns out if (00:30:36) you believe in nim talib and (00:30:38) anti-fragile and a lot of this work that (00:30:41) requires exposure you only develop your (00:30:43) resilience and your through exposure you (00:30:46) can't if you live in a bubble you will (00:30:48) you know die of exposure to everything (00:30:50) but but our our brain just feels like I (00:30:53) see Johnny struggling and I have to save (00:30:58) him and again I go back to that 2 by two (00:31:00) un unsafe you know is it is it is it (00:31:03) safe but uncomfortable uh you know, and (00:31:06) there's a whole matrix around that. (00:31:08) >> And I I'm looking at physical safe, like (00:31:10) is this is his life in in danger? I'm (00:31:13) okay with discomfort cuz we're going to (00:31:16) have discomfort and and what you're (00:31:19) seeing, you know, for all this school (00:31:21) and achievement and everything that a (00:31:23) lot of the product that's showing up as (00:31:24) 20-year-olds in these companies can't (00:31:27) handle getting anything wrong or having (00:31:29) some feedback or some reading. So you (00:31:31) can put that off for a long time, but (00:31:33) eventually it comes and the longer you (00:31:35) haven't been exposed to it, it seems (00:31:37) like the harder the fall. So I parents (00:31:40) are in this savior complex and they (00:31:42) won't let look, we have a lot of friends (00:31:44) with kids going through seventh and (00:31:46) eighth grade and you know the stuff that (00:31:48) happens and (00:31:49) >> the hunger games of middle school. (00:31:50) >> It it it's it's terrible. We've all been (00:31:52) through it and you have empathy, but you (00:31:54) can't save them. You can't call another (00:31:58) kid and yell at them or get involved. (00:31:59) Like you you have like there is some (00:32:01) they have to learn and my my daughter (00:32:03) has a a habit of calling me sometimes (00:32:05) you know she is a very kind person and (00:32:07) she deals with people who are rational (00:32:09) and she struggles with people who are (00:32:10) rational. I'm like this is welcome to (00:32:12) life. (00:32:13) >> She struggles with people who are (00:32:14) rational irrational irrational my advice (00:32:18) to her always is welcome to life and (00:32:20) like you need to learn how to navigate (00:32:22) around people like this. They will be in (00:32:23) your life. They will be your boss one (00:32:25) day. So instead of getting so frustrated (00:32:28) at it, like let's see how you can like (00:32:32) this is this is training. Um but but (00:32:34) this is where parents (00:32:37) who mean very well are doing a ton of (00:32:40) harm. And if you look at all of the (00:32:42) data, it all says the same thing. Why, (00:32:44) as you said, are the most affluent, most (00:32:47) resourced kids, (00:32:48) >> you know, (00:32:50) >> carving things into them depressed. They (00:32:53) they're the most anxious. It doesn't (00:32:55) make any sense. So, which proves that (00:32:56) it's not about hardship because the kids (00:32:59) who are who are dealing with food (00:33:01) insecurity and housing stuff and having (00:33:03) to work two jobs, (00:33:05) >> they're they're struggling. They're not (00:33:08) anxious. So, why is that? It it it (00:33:11) really undermines (00:33:14) um (00:33:16) this idea that sort of comes out of Marx (00:33:18) that we are the product of our economic (00:33:20) conditions that that man the that that (00:33:23) the human is just (00:33:26) like our psychology is just rooted in (00:33:28) our material conditions and that's it. (00:33:29) Like that's not that's clearly not true. (00:33:32) The twin studies disprove that because (00:33:34) you can take twins, put one in a poor (00:33:36) poor household that's totally different (00:33:38) than this and one here and they actually (00:33:40) end up being kind of si end up being (00:33:42) sort of similar. Um there's just so much (00:33:45) there's so many things that we take for (00:33:47) granted in our discussions about human (00:33:49) nature that are just like wrong. (00:33:51) >> There's a lot of things of of kids that (00:33:53) go through war like war torn com go (00:33:56) through a war they have less they have (00:33:59) other issues. They have less anxiety (00:34:01) than kids in the suburb. And so why? (00:34:05) Because actually there's connection, (00:34:07) there's a shared struggle, there's a lot (00:34:09) of things that go on versus this (00:34:11) loneliness that comes from living (00:34:13) disconnected in large suburban, you (00:34:15) know, uh, wealthy places. So it it it is (00:34:18) an interesting problem and I and and I (00:34:20) and I hope that parents like what I (00:34:22) don't understand and why I started this (00:34:23) work on the next book is like look in (00:34:25) leadership when when you see that (00:34:28) whatever you're doing is producing a (00:34:30) horrible outcome you change what you're (00:34:33) doing. We're 20 years into this (00:34:36) helicopter, snowplow, whatever you want (00:34:38) to call it, parenting and people (00:34:40) doubling and tripling on and the results (00:34:42) are worse and worse than ever. And all (00:34:44) the data says very clearly that that is (00:34:47) not the data has been clear on for (00:34:49) hundred years on what the best form of (00:34:51) parenting is. And that the the quick (00:34:53) thing is high support, high standards. (00:34:56) We went from everything's an (00:34:58) overreaction. We went from high (00:34:59) standards and no support and then (00:35:02) everyone being like, I'm just going to (00:35:03) be super supportive and now there's no (00:35:05) standards. Objectively, that might (00:35:07) produce a better result. Like I know a (00:35:09) lot of people probably our age who (00:35:11) probably lacked some emotional support (00:35:13) when they were young and they feel like (00:35:14) they they are not great with emotion (00:35:17) because of, you know, their parenting. (00:35:19) However, they're functioning human (00:35:21) beings in society. Whereas you have (00:35:24) 20-year-olds and stuff these days who (00:35:25) just can't function because it's all (00:35:28) emotion and no no no no resilience. This (00:35:33) I want to come back to some of the other (00:35:34) values you listed but this I can't help (00:35:36) but dive into the workplace here because (00:35:39) >> um (00:35:41) >> you are a large employer. You put a lot (00:35:43) of thought into trying to create a good (00:35:45) work environment and and your TED talk (00:35:48) actually speaks to this. So your TED (00:35:51) talk was about the problem of two week (00:35:53) notice. (00:35:54) >> Yeah. (00:35:55) >> So and and and it's on both sides. So if (00:35:58) an and as a longtime employer myself, it (00:36:01) resonated very deeply (00:36:03) when when somebody that you value that's (00:36:05) part of the team comes in (00:36:08) >> Yeah. (00:36:08) >> closes the door and you got a minute. (00:36:10) Yeah. (00:36:10) >> And it's like you (00:36:13) >> Oh no, everything's about to be (00:36:14) derailed. You're going to tell me if (00:36:15) you're putting in your twoe notice. It (00:36:17) takes like 3 months to find somebody and (00:36:18) even if they're right, it takes another (00:36:20) six months to get them to be up to (00:36:21) speed. (00:36:23) >> Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Those are all the (00:36:25) reactions you described as in the book. (00:36:27) And here's the next thing that's going (00:36:29) to run through your head. Oh, you had (00:36:31) all these doctor's appointments the last (00:36:33) month and I told you that was fine and (00:36:36) that was all a lie. Cuz again, this is (00:36:38) the playbook and and (00:36:41) so now how things start and how they (00:36:43) end. and and I saw Dan Pink's book out (00:36:46) there, you know, he he talked about this (00:36:48) in in when have a disproportionate (00:36:50) impact on our on our memory. If you're (00:36:52) holding a conference, you want a good (00:36:53) opener and a good closer. And so this is (00:36:56) the process of how it ends starts to (00:36:59) ruin the entire memory of that (00:37:01) experience. (00:37:02) >> Yes. as as the employer. We'll we'll (00:37:04) talk about talk about that because I (00:37:06) could I read a set. (00:37:09) >> I thought we were building a great (00:37:11) culture and an open honest culture and (00:37:12) we were a client service business and (00:37:14) this twoe notice thing drove me nuts (00:37:16) because it was terrible for our clients. (00:37:19) Any of us who have a are in a client (00:37:21) service relationship insurance the (00:37:22) biggest risk for a company is change an (00:37:25) account manager quickly right (00:37:26) particularly when the whole relationship (00:37:28) is there. So I was like this (00:37:29) >> this sucks for our business. I also (00:37:32) don't like this doesn't feel like open (00:37:34) and honest and psychological safety. But (00:37:36) this is all people know. This is what (00:37:37) their parents tell them to do. This is (00:37:38) the sort of US playbook by the way. It's (00:37:40) not the playbook in the rest of the (00:37:42) world. It's distinctively American and (00:37:44) you don't even have to give two weeks. (00:37:45) Someone decided that that you can leave (00:37:47) or at will. Someone decided that that's (00:37:49) the right barometer. And half the (00:37:51) companies have a policy of walking you (00:37:52) out that day after you give two weeks (00:37:54) notice. So what's you know that's all (00:37:56) kind of messed up in itself. (00:37:57) >> And there's reasons for that too. I mean (00:37:59) sometimes it (00:38:02) for for people who aren't in this (00:38:04) position of being an employer and (00:38:07) there's a bunch of stuff bad stuff (00:38:09) >> like like you know (00:38:11) >> this I mean gosh I moved around a lot in (00:38:15) my early career within Viacom (00:38:18) >> but it was amazing the second you (00:38:20) decided you were going to leave (00:38:24) >> it's like you're a different person and (00:38:26) you're engaging (00:38:27) >> stay you couldn't stay (00:38:28) >> yeah and and then the and then The other (00:38:31) piece of the puzzle is the second you (00:38:33) put in your notice, even if you've got a (00:38:35) lot of runway, you're you feel yourself (00:38:38) being unwoven from the fabric of the (00:38:41) organization out of necessity. (00:38:44) >> And so there's like game theory things (00:38:46) that are are part of this. (00:38:48) >> So this is my find a better way and (00:38:50) respectful authenticity put together. (00:38:52) And I was like this problem doesn't make (00:38:53) sense. We're not in lifetime employment (00:38:56) anymore. We know that people are going (00:38:58) to leave. Like we you go and look at (00:39:00) glass door and it's 2.5 years at the top (00:39:03) companies. So why are we treating this (00:39:06) like the end of a relationship and not (00:39:08) the end of a sports contract, right? You (00:39:11) have a sports player, they're playing (00:39:12) out their free agent year, you know, (00:39:14) they're going to leave. Like there's not (00:39:16) weirdness. Like they're going to do (00:39:18) their job and then they're going to (00:39:18) leave. It it just it didn't make sense (00:39:21) to me. So, we had a guy, I call him sort (00:39:24) of patient zero in the in the book in (00:39:25) the TED talk, and we did the whole PIP (00:39:28) thing, and we were going to do it again (00:39:30) cuz what's a PIP? (00:39:31) >> Performance improvement plan. So, this (00:39:32) is the like 90-day warning. And by the (00:39:34) way, a lot of people just do it because (00:39:36) they're told by their attorneys that it (00:39:38) provides them legal coverage. That is (00:39:40) actually not true. People can sue on (00:39:43) anything. And people sue because they (00:39:45) feel disrespected. And when you do a (00:39:48) PIP, that sets up someone to fail. when (00:39:50) you're planning on firing them and you (00:39:52) just think you're documenting it. Well, (00:39:53) that's going to make the person more (00:39:55) angry. So, so that logic is is totally (00:39:59) doesn't make any sense. So, he had done (00:40:02) better as people do when their job's on (00:40:03) the line. And then he was regressing (00:40:05) again and we kind of had a real (00:40:08) conversation. He's like, I kind of want (00:40:09) to do something different. And we're (00:40:10) like, well, we kind of want this client (00:40:13) to, you know, not have a bad situation. (00:40:15) So, how about like let's try something (00:40:17) else. You start looking for a job. you (00:40:20) kind of manage out your work here, but (00:40:21) start looking for a job and do this. (00:40:23) Keep in touch with us. Tell us how it's (00:40:24) going and why don't we when we made some (00:40:27) mistakes, but like not a time like let's (00:40:29) take a couple months and see if we can (00:40:31) find you a better place to work. And we (00:40:33) made some mistakes on it, but it worked (00:40:35) pretty well. And I was like, well, (00:40:37) that's good. What if we could encourage (00:40:38) people that leaving isn't the end of the (00:40:40) world? Then either we can start a (00:40:41) conversation, you know, and I can lead (00:40:43) it or in and in and what we really get (00:40:46) the employee to start it and and tell (00:40:48) them if you come start a conversation (00:40:50) that like I think I might want to do (00:40:51) something else or whatever, no one is (00:40:53) going to walk you the door. No one's (00:40:54) going to fire you. We would like to try (00:40:56) this transition thing. We did it for (00:40:58) years. People started asking me about (00:41:00) it. I did the TED talk. I wrote it up (00:41:02) sort of in a book in my, hey, here's how (00:41:04) you do it. And and people all the time (00:41:06) would tell me a million reasons, but I I (00:41:07) just had people I hadn't met reach out (00:41:09) and be like, look, I I saw your video or (00:41:10) I saw the thing at the conference and (00:41:12) even without all the tactical, they're (00:41:14) like, I just I tried it and like (00:41:17) actually it's so much better. Now it (00:41:18) doesn't work all the time and there's a (00:41:20) problem. You know, there there's some (00:41:21) issues. Um but but it's just this just (00:41:25) cuz we've always done something like (00:41:27) that. Those are my fighting words. What (00:41:29) we can talk about anti- values like as a (00:41:31) find a better way person like someone (00:41:32) telling me well we've always done it (00:41:34) that way. Those are like that's like (00:41:35) fighting words, right? The true test of (00:41:38) value is that the opposite of it causes (00:41:40) you like deep discomfort. And people (00:41:43) that say that cause me deep discomfort. (00:41:46) >> Yeah. That the I mean the status quo I (00:41:49) mean the status quo can have value and (00:41:50) that it survived for a reason. But a lot (00:41:53) of times it survived for a reason (00:41:54) because everyone thinks it survived for (00:41:55) a reason (00:41:56) >> and you need it at some point. You need (00:41:58) a process (00:41:58) >> collective illusion that this is the (00:42:00) only way to do things, (00:42:01) >> right? But to make the comment that it's (00:42:03) not even saying that it's the better (00:42:05) way, but just that we've cuz we've done (00:42:07) it that way and that is the (00:42:08) justification doesn't make any sense to (00:42:10) me. (00:42:11) >> So (00:42:13) let's I want to play this out for a (00:42:15) little bit. Um (00:42:17) how do you communicate this to the (00:42:19) staff? Like yeah like what does that (00:42:21) what does that look like? (00:42:22) >> So great question because I want to be (00:42:24) really clear. People read the book, they (00:42:25) watch the TED talk and they're like, I (00:42:26) should go and tell my employer that uh, (00:42:30) you know, I want something else and I (00:42:31) should do this. I'm like, you should not (00:42:32) do that because they'll if your company (00:42:34) walks people to the door every day, then (00:42:37) they'll do that. I am speaking to (00:42:39) company leaders and people who have the (00:42:41) ability to put that system in place and (00:42:44) then try to encourage people to leverage (00:42:46) it. This is not an employeeled thing. (00:42:48) It's an employerled thing. So, you have (00:42:50) to roll it out. You have to tell people (00:42:52) seven times and you have to say look (00:42:54) this is we have this transition program. (00:42:56) So a lot of times you know John and I (00:42:57) you and I are sitting down like John hey (00:42:59) it's it's not going that great. Like (00:43:01) this has been the second or third (00:43:03) quarter. You know we've talked about (00:43:04) this like you're 50% of your quota. Look (00:43:07) we have this blue pill and red pill (00:43:09) thing. The blue pill is I put you on a (00:43:10) 30-day pip and if you don't improve you (00:43:13) you know you're gone. The red pill is we (00:43:15) have this open transition program uh and (00:43:18) if you opt into it like we'll we'll give (00:43:20) you 90 days you keep doing your duty (00:43:22) we'll start hiring for your job you can (00:43:24) start interviewing but we're kind of (00:43:26) deciding that you realize like I don't (00:43:28) want to be in sales or this isn't going (00:43:29) to work you have the honest conversation (00:43:30) which is like I don't want to do the (00:43:32) work to get better I want a different (00:43:33) job this is not for me um and and and (00:43:37) you know get people to choose that pill (00:43:41) basically um and and then you have to (00:43:43) communicate to the company you have to (00:43:44) say here's what's involved and here's (00:43:46) how we support you and by the way we can (00:43:48) end it at any time if you start doing (00:43:50) things that you shouldn't do and the (00:43:51) parameters but (00:43:53) all kinds of objections and I have a (00:43:55) chapter in the book on what are all the (00:43:56) objections people like well people are (00:43:59) going to steal things and cheat and lie (00:44:01) and whatever I'm like okay let's let's (00:44:03) dig into that one (00:44:06) if someone really wanted to they've (00:44:07) stolen it months ago like before they're (00:44:10) going to tell you this and two like I'm (00:44:12) I'm helping them. I'm letting them get (00:44:15) interview. We're working on a good (00:44:16) conclusion. Why are they going to act (00:44:19) badly, you know, now? Um, and my (00:44:21) favorite thing was someone, you know, (00:44:23) said was saying once, well, you know, (00:44:25) but everyone leaves my company. They're (00:44:27) always stealing stuff. So, if this (00:44:29) stealing thing and causing like problems (00:44:31) at the end, the the answer is if you (00:44:34) have all these people stealing stuff and (00:44:36) doing all this stuff as they're leaving (00:44:37) your company and causing disruption, two (00:44:40) things are true. one, you really suck at (00:44:43) hiring and like stop hiring horrible (00:44:45) people that would do this. Or two, (00:44:47) there's something so toxic about your (00:44:49) culture that when people leave here, (00:44:51) they want to burn down the place. Both (00:44:53) of these require a little introspection. (00:44:56) >> The um (00:44:59) it is interesting. I think like it (00:45:02) reminds me of something that I've heard (00:45:03) about, (00:45:05) you know, if you if you find drugs on (00:45:08) your kid like (00:45:10) >> Yeah. What that means is they have been (00:45:14) doing all kinds of stuff for a very long (00:45:16) time because they have gotten so sloppy (00:45:19) that they let you find something (00:45:20) >> and everyone gets caught the first time, (00:45:22) right? (00:45:22) >> Yeah. And it's always said like, "Oh, (00:45:23) this is the first time." But if you (00:45:25) because all because we're kind of all (00:45:27) stupid because we're parents and we're (00:45:29) also as as helicoptery as we are, we're (00:45:31) all busy. We have multip everybody's (00:45:33) working. So (00:45:34) >> our kids are smart. they're sort of (00:45:36) conniving (00:45:38) and if they get so sloppy that you catch (00:45:39) them, it's too late. So, it's sort of (00:45:41) the same thing like if you if people are (00:45:43) stealing from you when when they're (00:45:45) exiting, they've probably been stealing (00:45:46) the whole time. (00:45:47) >> The problem is stealing the whole time. (00:45:48) And if you made (00:45:50) >> the whole point of this process and what (00:45:52) people don't understand is by the time (00:45:54) they're toxic, (00:45:56) >> it's actually too late because there (00:45:57) were what I'm talking about is moving a (00:46:00) timet back 9 months to when John first (00:46:03) started to have a lot of work problems (00:46:05) and rather than having a real (00:46:07) conversation. So the first quarter that (00:46:09) John totally missed his sales quota, (00:46:11) John like what's going on? Not you (00:46:13) missed your quota, you have to do (00:46:15) better. What's going on? and you're (00:46:16) like, I you know, I just don't know if (00:46:18) sales are for me. Like, and if you have (00:46:20) a real discussion, so if you don't know (00:46:22) if sales are for you, John, then like (00:46:24) maybe the sales team is not going to be (00:46:26) the best place. Like, let's like let's (00:46:28) would you want to go back to marketing? (00:46:30) Should we see if there's a job there? (00:46:31) So, yes, at the end of avoiding a lot of (00:46:34) problems, you're at a point where it's (00:46:36) unreoverable. (00:46:38) Part of this whole system is earlier (00:46:41) warning system, conversations, dive in, (00:46:44) get to it. There are much better (00:46:45) outcomes earlier in the process before (00:46:49) all this stuff goes on. You missed it (00:46:50) again. John, you missed you missed (00:46:52) earnings again. This is bad. Now you're (00:46:54) getting now you don't like me. I don't (00:46:56) like you. We start doing stuff. Now you (00:46:58) take the customer list and you copy it (00:47:00) cuz maybe if I fire you one day then (00:47:02) you'll have the customer list. So this (00:47:04) whole system requires pushing back uh uh (00:47:08) I call it kind of early detection system (00:47:10) 8 to n months and as soon as problems (00:47:12) start to arrive starting discussions (00:47:15) okay John's coming into they're (00:47:17) different routes John's coming into work (00:47:19) totally late and distracted every day (00:47:20) right so I can give you a performance (00:47:23) review I can be like John what's going (00:47:25) on you become super unreliable so (00:47:27) there's a couple stories that could be (00:47:29) here John actually is distracted and (00:47:31) doesn't like the work and is looking for (00:47:33) something else. (00:47:33) >> Yeah. (00:47:34) >> You know, number two, John really (00:47:35) doesn't like being in office and wants (00:47:37) to work from home. (00:47:38) >> And number three, John lost his child (00:47:41) care and is working around this very (00:47:44) short-term run and it's very stressful (00:47:46) >> or has a family emergency or any number (00:47:50) of things. (00:47:50) >> Instead of John, you're doing bad job at (00:47:53) work. All of those require totally (00:47:56) different remedies. The first one maybe (00:47:58) I can't fix and so we start the John. (00:48:00) So, we get you another job. the the the (00:48:02) schedule one, we can work on this in the (00:48:04) short term, but here's what I need from (00:48:05) you and this is something that you know (00:48:07) you need to fix. The work from home one, (00:48:10) hey, hey, like maybe we could set that (00:48:12) up if if that'll help you, but here are (00:48:14) the expectations or or whatever it is or (00:48:16) you might or maybe it's the opposite. (00:48:18) You know, we're in office and or we (00:48:20) don't have offices and you want an (00:48:21) office. So, each different route would (00:48:24) have a different course that we could (00:48:27) try to take. And it's not about the (00:48:29) performance is bad. It's can we help (00:48:31) with what's the cause of the performance (00:48:33) being bad? After the performance is bad (00:48:35) three quarters in a row, all of that (00:48:37) other stuff doesn't matter anymore and (00:48:39) that's where you're at a sort of (00:48:41) unsolvable impass. (00:48:42) >> So, um it's (00:48:45) there is these two, you know, there's (00:48:47) the there's the employee who's decided (00:48:50) they want to leave. (00:48:51) >> Yeah. (00:48:53) >> For whatever reason. Then there's the as (00:48:56) the employer seeing performance. But it (00:48:59) sounds like what you're talking about (00:49:00) kind of addresses both scenarios. (00:49:02) >> I'm trying to make it no fault car (00:49:03) insurance, right? Basically like the (00:49:06) Massachusetts no fault state. It doesn't (00:49:08) matter. Is to say look a transition. (00:49:10) We're taking the word off of leaving. (00:49:11) When everyone leaves under this, it is (00:49:13) not clear to anyone how they left. Oh, (00:49:17) John's John's moving on. He joins our (00:49:18) alumni prof. Like transitioning is not a (00:49:21) bad thing. Transitioning out is not a (00:49:22) bad thing. So it's kind of like no (00:49:24) fault. Ideally, you get the employees to (00:49:27) to opt in because they feel more in (00:49:30) control and they're better. But it's the (00:49:31) same thing on the other side where I'm (00:49:33) trying to nud nudge you in and say, (00:49:35) "Here's a solution." But but it's no (00:49:37) fault because what is everything about? (00:49:39) I'm quitting. Were they fired or did (00:49:41) they quit? Like it it doesn't matter. (00:49:43) It's run its course, right? It's like (00:49:45) the sports contract where at the end of (00:49:47) three years, I think you're a little (00:49:49) slower. You want more money. You're free (00:49:51) to sign with another team. Like it it (00:49:53) was a good run. like it doesn't we don't (00:49:54) have to we it doesn't have to be a whose (00:49:57) fault is it. (00:49:58) >> Um how how many employees do you (00:50:01) currently have in the company? (00:50:02) >> Uh we have about 300 although I I'm not (00:50:05) I'm exec chair so I'm not involved in (00:50:07) the day-to-day you know running of the (00:50:09) business anymore but we have about 300. (00:50:11) >> When how many did you have when when you (00:50:13) did this TED talk and started to like (00:50:15) operationalize this? (00:50:16) >> That was probably 100. (00:50:18) >> Okay. So it's 100 people. (00:50:19) >> Um so that's big. I' I've never So, you (00:50:23) know, this podcast (00:50:23) >> Oh, no. Well, no, it was it was he was (00:50:27) one of our first employees. So, the the (00:50:29) the TED talk later, but we started to (00:50:31) play around with this probably from 50. (00:50:33) Okay. Something like that. Yeah. (00:50:34) >> So, I you know, this podcast is part is (00:50:38) a project of my organization, Emerging (00:50:40) Order Foundation, and I've been an (00:50:41) employer for gosh, since I left Viacom (00:50:44) in 2011. (00:50:45) >> Yeah. The biggest I've ever had to (00:50:47) manage as a team is about 25 to 30. And (00:50:52) it does seem like there's these (00:50:54) different points at which the nature of (00:50:56) the thing changes. So (00:50:57) >> 30 is a known number. (00:50:59) >> Yeah. So So talk to me a little bit (00:51:01) about what (00:51:04) >> we don't have to get too much into the (00:51:06) weeds of like the different sizes of (00:51:08) things and corporate culture stuff, but (00:51:10) um what was it like? What kind of (00:51:14) company is a hundred people? Like what (00:51:17) did you have to do to make this impact (00:51:22) the culture of the company? Because when (00:51:24) you're a small enough group that I as (00:51:26) the boss know everyone (00:51:28) >> correct (00:51:28) >> we can all get in a room together talk (00:51:30) about things and if there's follow (00:51:31) through (00:51:33) >> and if the people that (00:51:34) >> it's I trust John or I don't trust John (00:51:36) >> right it's like hey you know you know (00:51:38) >> I trust it's trusting John is more (00:51:39) important than trusting the (00:51:40) organization. (00:51:41) >> Yeah. or the systems or the programs or (00:51:44) this you know it's a lot it's more more (00:51:46) familial but at 100 you're you're past (00:51:49) that point (00:51:50) >> or even even maybe at 50. So every time (00:51:52) you double your business, you break half (00:51:55) your people and half your processes, (00:51:56) right? That is a sort of a known thing. (00:51:58) And 30 is the first time that an (00:52:01) organization starts to need people that (00:52:03) aren't doing the thing the organization (00:52:05) does, right? So that is a key threshold. (00:52:08) People either tend to plow through it or (00:52:11) kind of stumble through it and then (00:52:12) bounce back because they don't make the (00:52:13) changes. So that's typically, you know, (00:52:14) if you have 20 people here, they're (00:52:16) probably all writing and working on the (00:52:17) podcast and doing stuff. You get above (00:52:19) 30 and you have your first marketing (00:52:21) person that just does marketing, your (00:52:22) first HR person that's not doing what (00:52:24) the business is doing. And as you get to (00:52:26) 100, it lives through that middle. So (00:52:29) this program, the two weeks notice (00:52:31) program lives and dies at the manager. (00:52:33) It lives and dies at the manager's (00:52:35) ability to have real conversations. And (00:52:37) over the years, people would say, "Look, (00:52:38) I'm wear is the culture going to change (00:52:39) as we grow and is it going to?" And I'm (00:52:41) like, "Look, I don't want it to change (00:52:42) or else I wouldn't come to work." But (00:52:44) it's actually not going to be me. It's (00:52:46) going to be how you are living that. (00:52:47) You're touching those people on your (00:52:49) team every day. So, are you gonna hold (00:52:51) the own it and embrace relationships and (00:52:53) excel and improve? Are you going to own (00:52:55) the standards and carry it forward? It's (00:52:56) not going to be up to me because I (00:52:57) again, you're listening to me and you're (00:53:00) trusting in me, but they're trusting in (00:53:01) you. So, you have to be the one that's (00:53:04) that that that's sort of living that (00:53:05) out. So, this stuff lives and dies on (00:53:07) the front lines. And look, I do separate (00:53:10) work with companies on on their (00:53:12) corporate core values, which has some (00:53:14) very different things, but some very (00:53:16) distinct things. Um, and and that first (00:53:19) of all, they also can't be trust and (00:53:21) respect and integrity and all the crap (00:53:23) you see when you walk into every (00:53:24) company. But that also lives and dies in (00:53:26) the operationalization. I worked with (00:53:28) this well-known hospital that had a guy (00:53:30) come in who I helped with the core (00:53:32) values at his last organization where (00:53:33) they had a mess and he was walking into (00:53:35) a mess and he and he really wanted to do (00:53:37) for the department and and we we spent a (00:53:39) lot of work and we talked to the people (00:53:40) about what they actually valued and what (00:53:42) was going on and what leadership was (00:53:44) saying and they weren't doing and it was (00:53:45) total bottoms up. What do you value in (00:53:47) your peers? What behaviors, you know, do (00:53:50) we need to elevate? and and we did it (00:53:53) and I checked in with them 4 months (00:53:54) later, but we we I gave them a whole (00:53:56) list on here's how it lives like you (00:53:58) have it and it doesn't matter if you say (00:54:01) it like and here's how it lives and and (00:54:03) my favorite email I've gotten this year (00:54:05) was I said guys how's it going like it's (00:54:07) been 6 months and they said oh thanks (00:54:08) for writing here's what's going on we (00:54:10) just developed behavioralbased interview (00:54:12) questions based on all of our core (00:54:13) values for department we got HR to (00:54:15) approve that these core value kind of (00:54:17) ratings are now part of the promotion (00:54:20) assessment and comp assessment And we (00:54:22) have this newsletter where they're now (00:54:23) core value shoutouts that people submit (00:54:26) from other people. We have our first (00:54:27) core value awards that's going to come (00:54:29) up in 6 months where people are going to (00:54:30) nominate. We're going to give out (00:54:31) awards. And I was like so happy. I was (00:54:33) like that that's how you that's not (00:54:36) integrity. You know they were very this (00:54:38) was a teaching hospital interestingly (00:54:40) and there was sort of no value around (00:54:43) elevating others and and teaching others (00:54:46) and it was such an obvious thing. (00:54:48) >> I have a lot of problems with hospitals. (00:54:49) None of this none of this surprises me (00:54:51) actually. (00:54:52) >> But but um it was an awesome meeting. (00:54:54) I'm like you guys are making sure that (00:54:57) look, we're all (00:55:00) >> animals a little bit at the end of the (00:55:01) day. We're we're training a dog right (00:55:02) now. We respond to incentives whether (00:55:04) they're explicit or implicit. What do I (00:55:06) get a treat for and what do I get a you (00:55:08) know slap on the head for? So people (00:55:10) will behave uh and most organizations (00:55:14) the thing that's on the wall is not look (00:55:16) when Enron went down in the height of (00:55:18) their thing they had trust respect (00:55:22) integrity you got you got promoted Enron (00:55:25) for taking egregious risks like you know (00:55:29) being a go-getter going at it alone like (00:55:31) those were probably actually the values (00:55:33) so people will respond to not what is on (00:55:36) the wall but what are you actually (00:55:39) demonstrating that what do praising me (00:55:40) for giving me money for scolding me if I (00:55:43) don't do (00:55:45) >> I have three lines of conversation where (00:55:47) I feel like we could go. One is um the (00:55:52) collapse in trust in in in in the (00:55:54) corporate sector and business overall in (00:55:56) the public. Uh because some of this can (00:56:01) sound a little like corporate HR (00:56:02) gobbledygook to somebody who (00:56:05) >> is struggling in the job market or just (00:56:07) feels like (00:56:10) like our culture, you know, you go on (00:56:12) social media, the way we talk about work (00:56:15) and businesses and cor and corporate (00:56:18) culture is sort of like a disaster. It's (00:56:20) like a it's like a disaster area in (00:56:22) general. And then you have like this (00:56:24) kind of guru talk that happens that you (00:56:27) know you're sort of either like I'm in (00:56:28) guru talk land with like Tony Robbins or (00:56:31) I'm like work sucks and this is all (00:56:34) horrible and it's very hard to navigate (00:56:36) when I try to put myself in the seat of (00:56:39) a 20-some year old like my son who's (00:56:43) trying to look ahead for his future. And (00:56:45) that's the second thing is like how how (00:56:47) is the workplace going to change (00:56:51) and how like how much of this is going (00:56:53) to get very upended by stuff like AI. (00:56:56) You're in you know your firm is in the (00:56:58) digital marketing. So like (00:57:01) >> every aspect of your business is subject (00:57:03) to AI disruption. And then I guess maybe (00:57:05) the third thing is I do I want to I want (00:57:07) to come back to sales. (00:57:08) >> But let's just start with AI. AI is (00:57:10) probably if if if my son is in his 20s. (00:57:13) He's going to school, (00:57:16) he likes cognitive types of stuff, (00:57:18) philosophy, political science, that kind (00:57:20) of stuff. (00:57:22) And what's he going to do four years (00:57:23) from now given the robots? So, how do (00:57:25) how are you dealing with this? And how (00:57:27) does it impact everything? (00:57:28) >> Well, I I have I have two kids in (00:57:30) college, one is a senior. So, you know, (00:57:32) I I talk about having the talk these (00:57:34) days. It's the new talk, the AI talk. So (00:57:37) my daughter who's the oldest, we we kind (00:57:38) of talk about it regularly and she's (00:57:40) eyes wide open on it. She's actually (00:57:42) interested in the law and we've talked (00:57:43) through which parts of the law are going (00:57:45) to be, you know, more impacted or not (00:57:47) impacted, but it'll disproportionately (00:57:49) impact junior work. Um, (00:57:52) everyone wants to be a banker and a (00:57:54) consultant and we were joking like these (00:57:55) are the ones where you know you there's (00:57:58) there is and they want to be a banker (00:58:00) because they want to be in private (00:58:01) equity and private equity has had like (00:58:03) no returns for the last five years. So, (00:58:05) you know, you have people plowing in on (00:58:07) the on the demand side, and I think (00:58:09) you're going to see a lot of funds close (00:58:12) on the supply side. So, it's all it's (00:58:15) all challenging. I I think, you know, (00:58:17) the the the borrow whatever money and (00:58:19) get whatever degree is you'll be fine is (00:58:22) is the same wisdom that fell apart with (00:58:24) just go work in the factory and you (00:58:26) you'll be fine. Uh the difference is (00:58:29) these kids are a lot more levered and (00:58:31) under a lot more debt. Um, and and (00:58:34) again, I think they have a (00:58:35) >> social powder cake, (00:58:36) >> high expectations based on, you know, (00:58:39) where they're where they're coming from. (00:58:40) So, I I I tend to be middle on a lot of (00:58:43) these things. I'm not, you know, (00:58:45) everything's going to be robot. In fact, (00:58:47) you look now, a lot of the companies are (00:58:48) finding the ROI isn't there. There's a (00:58:50) lot of complexity. They're rehiring the (00:58:52) customer support people that they look, (00:58:54) turns out, people kind of want people, (00:58:56) but you got to know how to use it. It's (00:58:58) going to be a major assistive thing, and (00:58:59) you got to pay attention to certain (00:59:00) shift. like I wouldn't tell my kid to be (00:59:02) a copywriter, you know, these days or (00:59:04) copy editor. Um, but I would focus on (00:59:07) the creative pieces. I would focus on (00:59:09) the interpersonal. So, interestingly, (00:59:11) like we were even talking about in the (00:59:13) law. So, she had an internship at a law (00:59:15) firm this summer on her own, maybe (00:59:17) because of hopefully some of the value (00:59:19) stuff we did, but she wrote 30 (00:59:22) handwritten notes to every person that, (00:59:25) you know, she worked with, which is not (00:59:26) something that, you know, people do a (00:59:28) lot these days. Now there may be 20% (00:59:32) less jobs in 3 years you know at that (00:59:34) firm but are the people more likely to (00:59:36) remember her that made a connection and (00:59:39) reached out and and did that and use the (00:59:41) interpersonal skills and differentiated (00:59:43) them like I I tend to think so but I (00:59:47) also think some of it I have very (00:59:50) different views on this complicated (00:59:52) probably as you do like I some of it's (00:59:54) kind of like expectations and I actually (00:59:56) think that we talked about the victim (00:59:57) stuff and some people have to come back (00:59:59) to a very basic thing. No one owes you a (01:00:03) job. No one is gets up in the morning (01:00:06) and says, "I need to create work for (01:00:08) other people." If you zoom back 300 (01:00:10) years, your choices are you work the (01:00:13) farm. Uh or even earlier that or you (01:00:16) basically, you know, forge for food. And (01:00:18) even the introduction of oh I can go (01:00:21) work somewhere else that isn't the farm (01:00:23) and they'll give me a paycheck was like (01:00:25) a awesome choice because the only choice (01:00:28) was sort of the farm. So what's (01:00:30) interesting is that people think that um (01:00:33) when people are doing massive layoffs (01:00:35) that that's an evil and bad thing (01:00:37) because it's something that already (01:00:38) existed right we all have loss aversion (01:00:40) and I'm not in favor of layoffs or (01:00:42) anything but I'm just hold that for the (01:00:44) other thing. However (01:00:45) >> I know these are hard things for people (01:00:46) to hear. It's like you've cold been. (01:00:48) >> However, if you were starting a company (01:00:50) today and when you get up to a hundred (01:00:52) people and you deal with their (01:00:53) complexities and their problems and (01:00:55) their mental health, you were starting a (01:00:56) company and someone said you can hire (01:00:58) five people to do that thing or I have a (01:01:01) machine that does it. 100 out of a (01:01:03) 100red people are probably going to buy (01:01:05) the machine. So in the creation of a (01:01:08) company, no one the purpose isn't to (01:01:10) find work for other people. Um, so I (01:01:13) think people a little bit of lose sight (01:01:14) of this and you should believe that if (01:01:17) someone else is running their company in (01:01:19) most cases, even though I believe in (01:01:21) culture and equity and all of these (01:01:22) things, but I'm just talking about basic (01:01:24) human nature, they're going to optimize (01:01:26) for themselves and their interest and (01:01:28) and and their family. So I I think (01:01:31) there's this this this expectation (01:01:34) problem like which is like yeah, like if (01:01:36) you go work at a big company or other (01:01:38) thing like it's not your company, it's (01:01:40) someone else's company. It's a great (01:01:41) place to learn, but you got to (01:01:44) understand that again your options are (01:01:46) today. Be self- sustaining. Do the farm (01:01:49) thing. Go work for someone. Go do your (01:01:51) own thing if you want to do it better. (01:01:53) But if you resign yourself to I'm not (01:01:55) going to be self- sustaining. I'm not (01:01:57) going to uh start my own thing. I'm (01:02:00) going to go work for someone else's (01:02:01) thing. That inherently has certain (01:02:04) limits. I think if we were just a little (01:02:05) more honest with ourselves around that (01:02:08) and and our expectations and I'll say (01:02:11) all that at the same time where I think (01:02:12) if you're running a company you should (01:02:13) treat people well and pay them well and (01:02:15) I believe in good cultures and all that (01:02:17) stuff. But I think it's interesting that (01:02:19) the downsizing argument because of (01:02:21) technology gets people all well that's (01:02:23) immoral. But is anyone talking about (01:02:25) well if you're starting a company is it (01:02:27) amoral not to hire people in the first (01:02:30) place? Well, this really cuts and we (01:02:33) don't have to get into political (01:02:34) philosophy too deeply, but (01:02:36) >> I came into this world doing this kind (01:02:38) of thing (01:02:40) >> because I was interested in economics (01:02:42) >> and in in the aftermath of the financial (01:02:44) crisis and the and and Occupy Wall (01:02:47) Street I think represented the first (01:02:50) the reawakening (01:02:52) of this interest in fundamentally (01:02:54) interested in interest in socialism. (01:02:57) >> Yeah. And a lot of what you're talking (01:02:59) about about like do you have a right to (01:03:01) a job, (01:03:04) it butts right up against the kind of (01:03:07) arguments being made increasingly by (01:03:09) those who are not a small number of (01:03:11) people who say they're kind of anti- (01:03:13) capitalism and pro-socialism. (01:03:15) >> Yeah. (01:03:15) >> And which I understand but disagree (01:03:18) with. And I understand when a system is (01:03:19) broken, it's very logical to say that (01:03:21) the system doesn't work and try another (01:03:23) one. The problem is they can't find a (01:03:26) working example of that in history and (01:03:28) that all of the people from all of those (01:03:30) regimes are trying to get into our (01:03:32) country as fast as they can. (01:03:34) >> Right? There's a whole bunch of (01:03:36) >> um without litigating capitalism versus (01:03:38) socialism in our conversation. (01:03:40) >> Anything anything at an extreme is any (01:03:43) ism is problem. I'm not a I'm not a like (01:03:46) pro- capitalist full extreme. Although (01:03:49) it's interesting if (01:03:50) >> I kind of am, but that's okay. No, but (01:03:52) some of the people I actually think are (01:03:55) interesting some of the problems with (01:03:56) our capitalism in the last 10 or 20 (01:03:58) years is actually has not been pure. We (01:04:01) have not let people fail and go and (01:04:03) people have used influence to get ba. It (01:04:05) has not it actually has been rigged uh (01:04:08) like a little bit. It's um I I actually (01:04:11) think that this this failure to (01:04:13) understand what we are and and and (01:04:16) therefore what the roots of our problems (01:04:18) are seems just maybe one of the most (01:04:21) profound problems in our politics, (01:04:25) our politics about our economics. It's (01:04:27) like I just remember this again going (01:04:29) back to the financial crisis the (01:04:31) economists people like Joseph Stiglets (01:04:33) who are going out there saying the (01:04:35) problem with this is our lazair banking (01:04:38) system and it's like last time I checked (01:04:40) like finance is the most regulated (01:04:43) industry (01:04:44) >> and like has all these weird things (01:04:46) including a central bank that bails them (01:04:47) out like what part of that is lazy fair (01:04:49) it's not. So then like when you start (01:04:52) from and this is kind of comes back to (01:04:54) what you're saying when you start from (01:04:56) faulty assumptions (01:04:58) you you sort of can't help but end up in (01:05:01) faulty next steps like (01:05:04) >> if that someone owes you a job is not a (01:05:06) thought someone would have had 300 years (01:05:07) ago. So you just have to understand that (01:05:09) right no one you didn't wake up in the (01:05:11) world you know in the in in the fields (01:05:14) and thing and someone owed you a job. (01:05:16) was you got to go get the food or do (01:05:18) whatever you need to do to to to do and (01:05:20) you and again when you when I when I (01:05:22) talk about if you were starting a (01:05:23) company today you know do do you do you (01:05:25) have a mandate to hire people or if I (01:05:27) told you I had a machine or a system (01:05:29) that'll do it cheaper and it won't call (01:05:31) in sick or whatever like 99 out of 100 (01:05:35) people are going to to pick that and (01:05:37) look there are so many problems with all (01:05:40) of these things but but but (01:05:44) yeah we go way got messy. (01:05:46) >> Well, it's I think um one of the things (01:05:49) that as I'm thinking about for my own (01:05:54) children and also just philosophically (01:05:56) and what's how to talk about this stuff (01:05:58) here is this sort of goes to the second (01:06:00) thing about sales. (01:06:03) Everyone's worried about the robots (01:06:05) taking all of our jobs and we're going (01:06:06) to have a universal basic income and (01:06:08) it's basically going to be a brave new (01:06:09) world. It's like that future sucks. (01:06:12) People need to work is strongly tied to (01:06:17) pride and selfrespect and even if the (01:06:19) economic right thing is to get a check (01:06:22) like sitting around and getting a check (01:06:25) and having no meaning or purpose is (01:06:27) going to cause a whole set of other (01:06:28) problems. (01:06:29) >> No. And it's like and that is it's like (01:06:31) cutely true for men who who've very when (01:06:34) you know being out of work causes these (01:06:36) very steep declines in in mental and (01:06:38) then physical health. It's just I mean (01:06:41) even just the the the amount of people (01:06:44) who retire and then quickly die (01:06:46) >> right in the first six months. Yeah. (01:06:48) >> So it's like we like work we like being (01:06:50) useful to other people. Forget work job. (01:06:52) It's like correct (01:06:53) >> being useful to another person is deeply (01:06:56) fulfilling. Um one of the jobs that I (01:07:00) basically never hear talked about and I (01:07:03) know it's easy to always say always or (01:07:05) never but I really think this might be (01:07:06) never. I think it might be never is (01:07:09) sales. So we always we talk about all (01:07:12) these oh what do we what should our kids (01:07:14) do or be an entrepreneur or go into the (01:07:17) trades like every kid is going to want (01:07:20) to end up. (01:07:20) >> It's true. Marketing is talked a lot (01:07:21) about more than sales. Yeah. (01:07:23) >> Nobody in the spaces talking about the (01:07:26) future of work ever talks about sales. (01:07:31) And I want to talk about it. when I when (01:07:34) I was preparing for this, I was like, (01:07:35) "Let's talk about it." (01:07:36) >> Well, because I I I actually think and I (01:07:38) want to this I want this to be the start (01:07:39) of a conversation. I come back to um (01:07:42) >> because sales is like super important. (01:07:44) Like sales is actually the only re (01:07:45) reason why anything exists. Like you (01:07:47) need to sell your product. Like if you (01:07:49) have a business, you're selling a (01:07:50) product or service, it needs to get (01:07:52) sold. (01:07:52) >> It's funny, there are people who who (01:07:55) have some sort of martyr is not the (01:07:57) right word, but look, I I I've been in (01:07:59) customer acquisition my whole life in (01:08:00) marketing. like it doesn't care if you (01:08:03) have the best product. You tell me, (01:08:04) "Well, that firm has a much better (01:08:05) product. That firm in St. Louis has the (01:08:07) amazing product, but no one knows about (01:08:08) them." Well, then what does it matter? (01:08:10) Like the people are using the product (01:08:11) that they know about, right? Like so (01:08:14) like it does. There's no like arbiter of (01:08:17) the universe that said like that says (01:08:18) like because you're better and sitting (01:08:20) there in your closet that all of the (01:08:22) business should come to you. (01:08:23) >> Betamax is so much better technically (01:08:25) than VHS. It's got higher color (01:08:27) resolution. It's more reliable. Didn't (01:08:30) matter. (01:08:30) >> Yeah. And if you have a high charisma (01:08:33) kid who's good at relationships and you (01:08:36) know you say, "Hey, you are you have (01:08:38) natural sales skills, right? (01:08:40) >> What um I mean I I'm I'm probably partly (01:08:43) informed by having been functionally in (01:08:47) sales as an entrepreneur for a long (01:08:48) time. (01:08:48) >> Every entrepreneur is in sales, (01:08:50) >> but that's the other piece of it. So we (01:08:51) have this world. I was watching a video (01:08:53) this morning from from a guy I forget (01:08:55) the name of the guy but he was talking (01:08:56) about like what the future works going (01:08:58) to be like with AI and he was saying (01:08:59) basically be an entrepreneur in in (01:09:01) information with media IP something or (01:09:04) other but I only understand being an (01:09:07) entrepreneur as first and foremost being (01:09:09) sales. So how do you understand sales (01:09:12) as someone who's built and run a company (01:09:14) that has to sell its services to people (01:09:16) on an ongoing basis? (01:09:18) give our viewers the breakdown from your (01:09:21) perspective on what sales is and why it (01:09:24) might be a career that they should put (01:09:26) on their radar because no one's talking (01:09:27) about it and no one's offering it to (01:09:29) them as hey you might be good in sales. (01:09:31) >> Yeah. So I this actually be good to talk (01:09:34) about sales and marketing as a pair (01:09:36) because I think particularly if you're (01:09:38) younger you might not not understand the (01:09:39) distinction. So marketing is kind of the (01:09:41) creation and formation of demand. I (01:09:44) think any 16-year-old intuitively (01:09:46) understands that you when they go (01:09:47) through Instagram and suddenly want to (01:09:48) buy something that they never knew (01:09:49) existed, right? That is a that is a (01:09:51) creation of demand. Um, and sales sort (01:09:55) of partners with that and that is how do (01:09:56) we match up our product and solution and (01:09:58) let you know that it's the right fit. (01:10:00) And it is probably one of the more (01:10:03) important and highly compensated (01:10:05) functions in any organization. In most (01:10:07) startups, a salesperson is paid more (01:10:08) than the CEO or or midsize companies. (01:10:12) And and if you build a pyramid and get (01:10:14) on top of that and manage so I mean it's (01:10:15) a good career and it's it's very good (01:10:18) for people who are either persuasive or (01:10:20) expert they have to be actually some of (01:10:21) the best sales people are good listeners (01:10:23) um make a product fit fit so so (01:10:26) marketing kind of creates that demand (01:10:28) and then it hands it over to sales or (01:10:31) typically if someone calls into the (01:10:32) company then you're not really in the (01:10:34) purview of marketing you're then you (01:10:36) know talking to sales but this is the (01:10:38) thing like everyone's like doctor lawyer (01:10:40) banker what like there's a lot more (01:10:44) range out there, a lot more things you (01:10:46) can do and tie it to that. It's just the (01:10:48) culture just reinforces a few of these (01:10:51) um stories and I think uh there are a (01:10:54) lot of kids out there. I have one kid (01:10:56) who has just he has sales DNA like I (01:10:58) joke they'd be a great I have a they (01:11:00) were my kids formed a company they'd (01:11:02) probably kill each other in the process (01:11:05) but a a kind of executive there's an one (01:11:08) is executive one is sort of operational (01:11:10) and financial and the other is sales (01:11:11) they they'd have a good (01:11:14) >> they have they have totally different uh (01:11:17) you know DNA in in that my other son (01:11:19) would hate to sell anything to anyone (01:11:22) like I just you know it's just not his (01:11:24) not his So what is it? What is sales (01:11:26) DNA? What does it take? What what what (01:11:29) could be in early indicators that you (01:11:32) should be thinking about a job in sales? (01:11:35) Which by the way also means you could (01:11:36) potentially pick almost any field. (01:11:39) >> Any field because you could apply it to (01:11:41) look, you love golf, you can go work for (01:11:44) Nike and sell golf clubs to golf club (01:11:47) stores. And that sounds pretty freaking (01:11:49) fun, right? Like let's go out on the (01:11:51) golf course and try it out. And and and (01:11:53) yeah. So look, do you know the DISC (01:11:56) profile ide? You know, it's interesting, (01:11:58) right? I mean, almost one of these sort (01:11:59) of personality test. (01:12:00) >> Yeah. It almost totally correlates to (01:12:02) executive function. Sometimes like a C (01:12:04) would end up usually being your CFO or (01:12:06) your ops person. The D's tend to be your (01:12:08) GM. (01:12:08) >> Do you remember the what the what DISC (01:12:11) stands for? (01:12:12) >> Uh dominant, influencing, steady, and (01:12:14) conscientious. I think (01:12:16) >> um so your sales people are usually I (01:12:19) like straight eye, influencing. So this (01:12:21) is someone who likes people, gift of the (01:12:24) gab, like good persuader, good listener, (01:12:29) extroverted, (01:12:31) likes being in rooms of people, likes (01:12:33) being in events, gets their energy from (01:12:35) other people. Um, likes a challenge, (01:12:39) likes sales people tend to be a little (01:12:40) more coin operated, right? They like (01:12:43) they like the close the deal, get the (01:12:45) money in in the bank. Yeah. I love (01:12:48) >> every entrepreneur has an element of (01:12:50) that. (01:12:50) >> Yeah. I didn't realize that this about (01:12:51) myself actually that I actually loved (01:12:54) >> closing the deal like making the pitch (01:12:56) and having the and having the win and (01:12:59) being like like it was (01:13:01) >> you're a solutions provider and you're (01:13:03) helping people solve their problems and (01:13:05) as you said I think that is very astute. (01:13:07) There's not an industry that doesn't (01:13:09) need it. So if you study medicine you (01:13:12) could go into pharma sales very (01:13:14) lucrative. There's sports sales. There's (01:13:17) digital technology sales, there's AI (01:13:19) sales. Um, and again, generally, (01:13:23) interestingly, these aren't the kids (01:13:25) that went to Harvard or Yale or (01:13:28) whatever, but they're making more money (01:13:30) than those kids in a lot of cases, (01:13:33) making a lot of, you know, a lot of (01:13:34) money because I think it's the people a (01:13:36) little bit with a chip on their shoulder (01:13:38) and and again, we've assigned this (01:13:40) artificial (01:13:42) prestige to to certain things and not (01:13:44) things, but that could flip so fast. (01:13:47) Like there's a version of AI where like (01:13:49) being able to do woodworking and do (01:13:51) stuff with your hands will be a lot more (01:13:52) demand with than being able to do a (01:13:55) spreadsheet and that that may flip a lot (01:13:58) of these things, you know, really (01:13:59) quickly. (01:14:00) >> The um there's this movie called The (01:14:03) Founder. Have you seen this movie? It's (01:14:05) about uh it's about the founding of (01:14:08) McDonald's. (01:14:10) >> I' I've read the book on this so it's (01:14:11) super interesting. So the boy so the two (01:14:13) the guy the brothers that started the (01:14:15) original McDonald's burger shop as a (01:14:17) single standalone place (01:14:19) >> had innovated all this stuff that made (01:14:21) it efficient (01:14:22) >> you know the kind of assembly line (01:14:24) inside the store and then along comes uh (01:14:28) Ray Croc Ray Croc (01:14:29) >> he wasn't yeah people don't know he (01:14:30) wasn't the founder he was I talked to he (01:14:32) he a franchising guy who said I look for (01:14:34) the Picassos that I can go stamp out and (01:14:37) he he saw this and he was like this no (01:14:39) one's doing this. (01:14:40) >> Yeah. And so, and the funny thing about (01:14:42) the film is at is um I think the (01:14:47) filmmaker has probably has kind of an (01:14:49) anti- capitalist streak. It but it's (01:14:51) almost like a roy roshock test because (01:14:53) I'm watching this and there's all these (01:14:55) things that happen in this movie that (01:14:56) are great. One of which is so crop goes (01:15:00) out and he's trying to franchise these (01:15:02) McDonald's and replicate them. (01:15:03) >> He was a sales guy. (01:15:05) >> He's a sales guy to (01:15:06) >> sales to Yeah. And and one of the things (01:15:09) at least as it's portrayed in the movie, (01:15:11) but this tracks because actually my (01:15:13) father-in-law is a Burger King (01:15:14) franchisee, so I have some exposure to (01:15:16) these to these crowds. My wife and I (01:15:18) used to go every year like I think I met (01:15:22) her her mother at like the Burger King (01:15:25) franchise association like gayla thing (01:15:27) that they would do in Florida. So I've (01:15:29) been around these folks for a long time. (01:15:32) the movie shows they he the first place (01:15:34) he goes to try to find people to start (01:15:36) these franchises is actually the country (01:15:37) club because oh they have money and they (01:15:39) could like capitalize and start these (01:15:40) things totally fails. These people (01:15:44) aren't in the business. They're (01:15:45) basically hiring schlubs and it they (01:15:48) don't adhere to the to the standards. (01:15:50) And the people he ends up finding (01:15:53) that that do it well are like these like (01:15:58) Eastern European immigrants and these (01:16:00) people who are working class kind of (01:16:02) like my greatgrandparents types (01:16:05) >> who (01:16:07) have that grit and want to get it done, (01:16:09) >> get up at 6 a.m. in the morning (01:16:11) >> and take ownership of it. (01:16:13) >> And they're not they're they're (01:16:16) workingass people. They're not like the (01:16:18) elite. They're not the cultural elite. (01:16:20) They're like the outsiders. And this is (01:16:22) the funny thing about this is like (01:16:25) having gone to these Burger King (01:16:26) conventions for like 20 years. That's (01:16:29) who these guys are. Guys and gals. (01:16:31) Mostly guys though. And (01:16:34) they they're make way more money than (01:16:37) the kid that goes and works for McKenzie (01:16:39) and then gets burned out in two years (01:16:40) and has a crisis and he's like whatever. (01:16:42) >> And this is like they have boats. (01:16:45) They're living large. They're having a (01:16:47) great life. the unsexy cash flow (01:16:49) businesses too. You know, the guy who (01:16:50) fixes all the screens in North America. (01:16:52) And I like here's a I had a conversation (01:16:56) with someone two weeks ago, first (01:16:58) generation immigrant, (01:17:00) very senior banking position in New (01:17:02) York. Kids went to really good schools. (01:17:05) They were not working. And she was sort (01:17:06) of lamenting their work ethic and their (01:17:09) viewpoint while also saying it was her (01:17:12) fault basically and that she had just (01:17:14) made it too easy. I can't tell you the (01:17:16) number of people I know, business (01:17:18) owners, whatever, who grew up dirt poor, (01:17:21) struggled, paid for their first car. I I (01:17:24) was guy that I'm working with that had (01:17:26) the same discussion like he he he was he (01:17:28) had nothing and now he's like so well (01:17:30) off and to where we were like a little (01:17:34) while ago on this and they just can't or (01:17:38) won't give any of their kids a little (01:17:40) bit of that knowing that that was (01:17:43) basically their key to success and (01:17:45) they're like well I bought him the car (01:17:46) and I get so all the stuff that you (01:17:48) never had and wouldn't do and that made (01:17:50) you who you are and and and they just do (01:17:55) the o opposite with their kids. Um it it (01:17:58) it's just super interesting, right? And (01:18:01) ironically, maybe the kids of these (01:18:03) people you're talking about end up then (01:18:05) being the ones going to the tracks and (01:18:07) don't I'm not going to do that. That's (01:18:09) like the family I want to be in finance (01:18:10) or whatever it is. Yeah, there's um (01:18:14) it is funny because there's like the (01:18:20) there's just not a lot of guidance out (01:18:22) there for the young person who (01:18:26) is struggling in this way or like like (01:18:28) it it's very hard and like like the (01:18:31) biggest thing to me is it's the robots (01:18:35) haven't taken all of our jobs yet. We (01:18:36) won't we don't know what that's going to (01:18:38) look like really. (01:18:40) Like no one knows. And it's easy to just (01:18:42) get yourself into like (01:18:43) >> Yeah. They may start taking over and we (01:18:45) have to shut them all down, right? (01:18:48) >> But don't but don't you think that (01:18:52) the parents are just not this is a (01:18:54) failure to have these meaningful and way (01:18:57) like you need to have these (01:18:58) conversations with the kids. I think (01:19:00) telling your kids it's all going to be (01:19:01) all right and you're special and you're (01:19:03) amazing and whatever is a huge (01:19:05) disservice. Um, you know, me having (01:19:07) these honest conversations with my (01:19:09) daughter about what's going on doesn't (01:19:10) take anything away from that. I think (01:19:12) she's super smart and has worked hard (01:19:14) and all that stuff, but I I think a lot (01:19:16) of this stuff is is where are the (01:19:18) parents in these conversations talking (01:19:20) about their roots and their values and (01:19:23) that, you know, the things they want the (01:19:24) kids to carry forward, they're all (01:19:26) caught up in the achievement game. what (01:19:30) um this is (01:19:33) there's talk and there's action and one (01:19:35) of the things about parenting that (01:19:38) >> and I'm a talker so there so there's (01:19:41) that but I think one of the things that (01:19:43) we usually overlook is just how much our (01:19:47) kids lesson comes from what they observe (01:19:50) us doing (01:19:52) >> another leadership truism too you're (01:19:54) going to do what you say not what do (01:19:56) what you do not what you say (01:19:57) >> well how what's your advice for that how (01:19:59) do how have you tried to balance talk (01:20:01) and and action because sometimes talk is (01:20:04) just cheap and sometimes it's hard to (01:20:07) like get it to stick and be a thing like (01:20:09) we can talk about our values but they (01:20:13) it's in one ear and out the other (01:20:15) >> look here here's here's a simple thing I (01:20:17) don't pay for lattes like I do not pay (01:20:20) for my teenage kids I don't go buy (01:20:22) Starbucks for $6, you know, every day. (01:20:26) So I bought an espresso machine. I (01:20:28) bought a bunch of the pods and the stuff (01:20:30) if you guys want to make it or a dollar (01:20:31) each that's at home you can make it if (01:20:33) you want to do your own Starbucks like (01:20:35) it's on you and you guys don't make (01:20:36) enough money for that. So, I I hate (01:20:40) wasteful things that there's a perfect (01:20:42) example and I'm using it intentionally (01:20:43) that it's trivial, but you can just keep (01:20:45) saying that's a waste of money and you (01:20:47) shouldn't do that, but someone yesterday (01:20:48) was telling me, "Yeah, that's ridiculous (01:20:50) and whatever." And then the wife was (01:20:51) like, "She has a Starbucks card app that (01:20:55) we give her." Like, so you're full of (01:20:58) like like she's, you know, 10 years old (01:21:01) and has the Starbucks app and you're (01:21:02) saying it's ridiculous. So, you you lose (01:21:05) it with your kids. I mean, I I'm like, I (01:21:08) don't go buy $6 coffees and I can afford (01:21:11) $6 coffees. You can't. Um, so that's (01:21:14) just a very small thing, but I think you (01:21:16) have to even with these little things. (01:21:20) There's a book our financial adviser (01:21:21) gave us years ago called Raised Healthy, (01:21:23) Wealthy, and Wise. I don't know if (01:21:24) you've heard of it, and it's basically (01:21:27) >> a study of these really welladjusted (01:21:29) kids who grew up from super affluent (01:21:32) parents. And a lot of them were artists (01:21:34) and things that have nothing to do with (01:21:35) the business. And there's a lot of (01:21:37) themes in the book, but one of the main (01:21:38) thing I took was these kids remembered (01:21:40) deeply and they didn't know at the time (01:21:43) how much money their parents had, but (01:21:44) they remembered them saying that's not (01:21:46) worth it or we wouldn't pay something (01:21:48) for like that or shopping through the (01:21:50) sale rack or bringing the coupon. they (01:21:53) remembered like how their parents valued (01:21:56) money before they realized how much (01:21:58) money, you know, they had and realized, (01:22:00) oh, they could have done all of that (01:22:02) stuff, but they didn't. And that was a (01:22:05) huge determinant in these kids being (01:22:06) kind of well adjusted. So, yeah, look, (01:22:09) you have to sometimes it's a little (01:22:11) thing like a coffee machine or whatever, (01:22:13) but but and and I think you have to make (01:22:16) sure that some of your as or they're (01:22:18) just going to do what you're what you're (01:22:20) doing. Um, one of the um, one of the (01:22:24) things you talk about and write about is (01:22:27) bringing shared values to your (01:22:29) relationship. So, we've been talking (01:22:30) about our kids and parenting, but that (01:22:32) starts with your spouse, you know, and (01:22:34) >> so how and I think this is something (01:22:36) that (01:22:38) >> this worries me a lot. I think it (01:22:40) worries all of us that look at it that (01:22:41) have managed to get on the last chopper (01:22:43) out of NAM, which is like they're our (01:22:46) kids and 20somes (01:22:49) into 30s for that matter are facing like (01:22:52) an absolutely bizarre to me as a Gen Xer (01:22:55) like dating market like the relationship (01:22:58) landscape. (01:22:59) >> Yeah. The boys are all conservative, the (01:23:01) girls are all liberal and they don't (01:23:02) want to talk to each other. (01:23:02) >> Well, yeah. So, there's I've talked (01:23:04) about there's a bunch of stuff. So, (01:23:07) yeah. On one hand, you got the boys are (01:23:09) all check are all like right-wingers and (01:23:12) this played out for sure with my son. (01:23:14) Um, and the girls have all gotten woke (01:23:16) and they're all, you know, (01:23:18) >> Yeah. And it's like the first litmus (01:23:19) test. (01:23:20) >> And actually, the funny thing is when (01:23:21) you look at that data, the boys actually (01:23:23) haven't changed that much. They're a (01:23:25) little more conservative. The girls have (01:23:26) changed a lot. They've gotten way more (01:23:29) leftwing. So, the thing you want to be (01:23:31) is a liberal uh a liberal boy or a (01:23:34) conservative girl. If you want to play (01:23:35) supply and demand is basically what I (01:23:37) saw. Yeah. (01:23:38) >> Well, if you want to play supply and (01:23:40) demand and be mentally healthy, I (01:23:41) suggest maybe being a Christian (01:23:43) conservative girl. But (01:23:45) >> I'll leave that up to the viewer. (01:23:46) >> Um, (01:23:48) >> but this values, (01:23:52) >> talk about how you try to bring values (01:23:55) to discerning your relationships and (01:23:57) having a healthy relationship. Like what (01:23:58) does that mean for you? (01:24:00) >> That mean look values are about the big (01:24:02) decisions and I don't think I understood (01:24:05) this in my 20s. I think that people look (01:24:07) at relationship compatibility (01:24:09) uh or they hear me say, "Do you have to (01:24:11) be the same?" Like, no. In fact, I've (01:24:12) been in a lot of these personality (01:24:14) things in disk and people tend to marry (01:24:15) the opposite. Um because there's some (01:24:18) and I remember the woman had everyone (01:24:19) line up in the room and the spouse was (01:24:21) in the opposite quadrant in one of these (01:24:23) things. And look, there long term (01:24:25) there's a there's a harmony in that. And (01:24:28) she said people marry the opposite and (01:24:29) they cheat with the same. Which I (01:24:30) thought was really interesting because (01:24:31) she said when you get frustrated it's (01:24:33) easy to run to the same thing as you. (01:24:35) But that has a whole different set of (01:24:37) problems in the long run which I thought (01:24:38) was super interesting that that you (01:24:40) pointed that out. So you have different (01:24:42) personalities, you have different (01:24:43) activities. But when you start talking (01:24:46) about where we're going to live and what (01:24:48) are the values we want to impart to our, (01:24:50) you know, kids and what decisions are we (01:24:52) going to make, you know, for them, you (01:24:54) have to have values alignment. And um (01:24:58) look, some values are obstensively good (01:25:01) or bad, like honesty and not honesty, (01:25:04) but so many of these things are are are (01:25:06) deeply powerful. And if you if you're (01:25:08) really conflicting on those, it's going (01:25:10) to be hard. So like let's do a couple (01:25:13) example. I I recently did helping (01:25:16) someone in a work context figure out (01:25:18) their core values. I figured out two of (01:25:21) her core values and she had this kind of (01:25:23) look on her face and I was like, and (01:25:25) she's going for a divorce. She was like, (01:25:26) "What?" And she's like, "My ex is the (01:25:28) opposite of those two." And I was like, (01:25:30) "That's not a surprise." Like again, we (01:25:33) don't have to be identical here. We have (01:25:35) to be symbiotic. Well, we can't be as (01:25:37) opposite. So, let's say I grew up super (01:25:39) poor and um you know, because of that (01:25:42) and I never had money for tomorrow and (01:25:44) because of that, like I am a saver and I (01:25:46) am I have a core value of long-term (01:25:48) orientation. This isn't my origin story. (01:25:50) Yeah. But but I so I am about longterm (01:25:52) and thinking ahead and whatever. This is (01:25:55) barred from a true story that I heard (01:25:57) recently about someone whose parent (01:25:59) thought that they were going to uh was (01:26:02) told that they had basically a year to (01:26:04) live and then live 5 years and so for (01:26:05) her there was no tomorrow. Right? So so (01:26:08) we're married and she is about today and (01:26:10) let's spend it all today and present and (01:26:12) I am about save and future. Like we can (01:26:16) maybe navigate around that. If we have (01:26:19) three or four of those (01:26:22) that's hard. It means we wake up every (01:26:25) day and we orient ourselves not around (01:26:28) you're playing tennis and I like soccer (01:26:30) and maybe we could agree that we both (01:26:31) like pickle ball. (01:26:33) >> We just this is very baked in for us. (01:26:36) It's very opposite and and I just I I (01:26:39) think that's a really hard thing to (01:26:42) overcome. And and so then but what value (01:26:44) are we teaching our kids? Well, we teach (01:26:46) let's teach them to defer gratification. (01:26:48) No, teach them to to do do it all. (01:26:51) Carpey DM like (01:26:54) and and and there's such a reaction and (01:26:56) overreaction. So, in values, I have (01:26:59) found I've gotten a lot of adults in a (01:27:01) work setting to get pretty vulnerable (01:27:03) with me if they're willing to do it. I'm (01:27:04) like, I'm not a therapist. I'm trying to (01:27:06) understand where this came from cuz it's (01:27:08) very real for you as a 40-year-old in (01:27:10) the workplace and it's driving your (01:27:11) leadership behavior. We're not going to (01:27:13) go back. We're not going to litigate it. (01:27:14) We're not going to be a victim, but like (01:27:15) you have to know where it came from, why (01:27:18) it's so strong for you. Most values (01:27:23) say 30% are in the four. Hey, we had a (01:27:26) strong religious, you know, background (01:27:29) in our family that was important to me. (01:27:30) That was a backbone like I I I believe (01:27:33) in that. Others are for the against. (01:27:36) Hey, I had a strong religious background (01:27:38) in my family. I was not a kid who was (01:27:40) accepted some of my that religion and I (01:27:42) do not believe in that at all and I do (01:27:44) the opposite of that and I'm a (01:27:45) freethinking sort of, you know, person. (01:27:49) So the the the this woman came up to me (01:27:52) after I I spoke on this and she said, (01:27:55) "My" and I didn't know what it was. She (01:27:57) said, "My son and I are diametrically (01:27:59) opposed on this value." And it I just (01:28:01) realized it's really hard for me. I was (01:28:02) like, "Yeah, that that is hard." And I (01:28:04) didn't get into it with her because (01:28:06) there was a lot of emotion. What I can (01:28:07) imagine is this thing was so you just (01:28:09) don't know how it lands for someone else (01:28:10) and the kid and who's a kid. This was so (01:28:12) important to her. maybe because she (01:28:14) didn't have it and so she overindexed it (01:28:17) maybe onto a point where her son was (01:28:19) like I don't want this in my life. This (01:28:21) is the like pingpong game that goes on (01:28:24) around again. I've probably seen more (01:28:26) people going against one I did I did (01:28:29) this exercise with a forum that I work (01:28:31) with and one of the people has a family (01:28:32) business and and he realized like all of (01:28:36) his core values were basically opposite (01:28:38) things things in this family business (01:28:40) world that he just like grow he grew up (01:28:42) in that and they were just things that (01:28:44) he was trying to do the opposite of (01:28:45) something cuz it didn't land for him or (01:28:47) it didn't work for him or otherwise. So, (01:28:49) you know, that's the struggle that (01:28:50) they're deep and that they're real. And (01:28:52) so, it's totally understandable why that (01:28:54) person is carpedium. They dealt with 10 (01:28:55) years where there wasn't another day and (01:28:58) and but when that collides into person (01:29:01) who does not want to live for the day, (01:29:04) like you've got some problems. (01:29:07) >> Um, before we started rolling, I was (01:29:10) bringing up uh Jonathan Height's book, (01:29:12) The Righteous Mind. And in in that he (01:29:15) lays out what he calls his moral (01:29:17) foundations sort of framework. And I' (01:29:20) I'm I'm not going to remember them (01:29:21) probably all, but they're like they're (01:29:23) they're in they're intention because (01:29:25) it's essentially like a an idea and it's (01:29:29) opposite. So liberty versus oppression (01:29:32) or care versus harm. Um sanctity versus (01:29:37) disgust or disrespect. (01:29:40) um loyalty versus um (01:29:43) >> disloyalty (01:29:43) >> disloyalty I guess those are several of (01:29:46) them there was some others and in that (01:29:50) book among other things um I mean this (01:29:54) is this is his framework that strike me (01:29:56) as being like those feel like those are (01:29:58) very (01:29:59) >> core values (01:30:01) >> how do you think about (01:30:02) >> do you have a a rubric or way of like (01:30:04) what are values because we use this word (01:30:07) values virtues (01:30:08) >> so so values are your non-negotiables. (01:30:12) Like in life, historically, people have (01:30:14) been willing to die for them. So, (01:30:15) they're non-negotiable. Uh they're (01:30:18) they're consistent, right, in all areas (01:30:20) of your life, spectrum, family, (01:30:22) personal, work, they're clarifying for (01:30:24) you. They help make decisions. But (01:30:26) that's why one-word values can't meet (01:30:28) any of these tests, right? So, when I (01:30:31) have someone, they have a value of (01:30:32) include all perspectives, that's (01:30:35) actually meets all of my kind of (01:30:36) validation standards. Um, and I actually (01:30:40) like know like if that person's on my (01:30:41) team, I know exactly the type of project (01:30:43) they would want to do. Hey, I need you (01:30:44) to go talk to our all of our customers, (01:30:47) figure out what product features that (01:30:48) were, you know, missing, come back to me (01:30:50) with a what we should build in a time (01:30:51) frame, and they'll be like, I'm on it, (01:30:53) right? I was like, hey, I need you to go (01:30:56) like talk to like one or two people and (01:30:59) then make a unilateral decision on this (01:31:01) like without consulting everyone and do (01:31:03) it quickly because it needs to be made. (01:31:04) They're going to be like, I do not want (01:31:05) to do that. Right? So, um, that's what (01:31:09) they are. Look what he's talking about. (01:31:11) There are societal values, there's (01:31:13) family values. Again, you can grow up in (01:31:16) a really religious household that has (01:31:18) those values, but stuff you're every (01:31:21) kid's different. You're like, for me, (01:31:23) the creative stuff being told sit down (01:31:26) and follow the rules, whatever. That had (01:31:27) an imprint on me, right? the same the (01:31:30) same thing because of different (01:31:32) personalities and different kids and (01:31:33) different can imprint differently but (01:31:35) that imprint carries forward and my (01:31:37) friend Phil Mccernin says and this is (01:31:38) why I'm not in the we're not going to (01:31:40) litigate it we're not going to go back (01:31:41) not a therapist but he goes our our (01:31:44) purpose and pain for most people lie (01:31:46) really close together there's a story in (01:31:49) the book about when when the mentor sort (01:31:51) of explaining this like why you need to (01:31:54) look back and understand these things (01:31:55) and he says look imagine that there's a (01:31:58) I know a woman and you know she came (01:32:00) from a single family household and her (01:32:03) mom worked two jobs to get her through (01:32:05) school and worked her butt off 12 hours (01:32:07) a day and got the kid in the school and (01:32:09) the kid went to Harvard and they (01:32:11) graduated and they were top of their (01:32:12) class and they ended up becoming an (01:32:14) entrepreneur and starting an (01:32:15) awardwinning global afterchool care (01:32:18) program. Well, what was the reason for (01:32:21) that? They were lonely as a kid. Their (01:32:23) mom was gone a lot. They were alone (01:32:24) after school. They were with friends and (01:32:26) they didn't want them to have that. Now, (01:32:28) we're not we're not blaming the mom, (01:32:30) right? That's just that person. I hate I (01:32:32) don't like this term and how it's used, (01:32:33) but it's their lived experience, right, (01:32:35) in this context. And it produced a (01:32:38) purpose and a really good outcome. But (01:32:41) it was just and and you'd say that's a (01:32:43) great parent. They worked really hard (01:32:44) and got their they couldn't do (01:32:45) everything, but that was just the (01:32:47) reality for that person. And so for (01:32:48) them, they became very motivated to (01:32:51) build connection and communities. And (01:32:54) so, I think for most people, our purpose (01:32:56) lies close to pain. The question is, are (01:32:59) we are we running around with no (01:33:00) self-awareness around that or do we (01:33:02) understand how it shows up in our in our (01:33:05) leadership and in our style? Like (01:33:06) because that person in the workplace is (01:33:09) is going to be very focused on where (01:33:12) they can create connection and community (01:33:14) and is not going to react well to people (01:33:15) who isolate people or who do stuff. the (01:33:23) the thinking about values as things you (01:33:25) die for and that are consistent is (01:33:28) really powerful. And I'm just thinking (01:33:31) about one of the things that I think has (01:33:34) become so difficult in America is (01:33:38) I think we have not not just America, I (01:33:40) think the West, maybe just the whole (01:33:41) world. Maybe it's always a human (01:33:43) problem, but it feels like (01:33:44) >> we'll go with Earth to cover it. (01:33:45) >> It's definitely an Earth. It's (01:33:46) definitely a human earth thing. But I (01:33:48) >> maybe the aliens too. Yeah. (01:33:50) >> Yeah. Those wheels flying around the (01:33:52) air. Um I think uh what should and (01:33:56) shouldn't be part of your identity is is (01:34:01) um is something that I think about (01:34:04) because um (01:34:07) how you respond to someone that has a (01:34:10) very different perspective than you (01:34:12) seems like it's it's hard for us. Right. (01:34:15) Right. (01:34:15) >> We're in this p we're Politics is (01:34:18) polarizing. You know, families are (01:34:20) getting ripped apart by politics. (01:34:22) >> But what's the the interesting is the (01:34:23) why? Because I think the why behind that (01:34:27) is we are we are using a very old thing (01:34:30) that was designed to protect us a (01:34:31) thousand years ago, which is we are (01:34:33) tribalistic, right? And and our DNA is (01:34:36) if you get put out of the cave in your (01:34:38) group a thousand years ago, you're dead. (01:34:40) And now instead of having consistent (01:34:43) values, this tribalistic team sport, (01:34:46) what's my team doing? And I'm actually (01:34:48) watching teenagers and 20-year-olds (01:34:50) being completely manipulated by people (01:34:53) who would do them harm and don't have (01:34:55) their best interest in art into (01:34:57) accepting illogical things that don't (01:35:01) make any sense. that if you actually had (01:35:03) grounding in your values, for example, (01:35:05) like let's not make this political, but (01:35:07) let's say there's a group that says, (01:35:08) "Look, we love all people except purple (01:35:10) people, right?" And you would be like, (01:35:12) "But that doesn't make sense. Either we (01:35:14) love all people or we don't. Why what (01:35:16) like why are we against the purple (01:35:18) people?" Right? But unless you're rooted (01:35:20) enough in your values to be consistent (01:35:22) around that, you are not going to your (01:35:26) values always cost you something in the (01:35:28) short term. Usually you win out in the (01:35:30) long run, but you I say you don't get (01:35:32) credit when you make a values-based (01:35:33) decision and your boat and the river are (01:35:35) going in the same direction. You get (01:35:37) credit when you point the boat uphill. (01:35:38) And it's going to cost you it's going to (01:35:40) cost you money, friends, jobs, (01:35:42) socialization, but to be in congruence, (01:35:45) you you I'm sure you've you read Adam's (01:35:47) book, Grant's book, Originals. (01:35:49) >> Um, (01:35:49) >> no. I'll have to check. So one of the (01:35:51) studies he did in that was why did (01:35:54) non-Jews in Europe harbor Jews during (01:35:58) the Holocaust and put their life at risk (01:36:00) to hide (01:36:00) >> like Schindler for (01:36:01) >> Yeah. or why did families who put their (01:36:04) life at risk? And so they interviewed (01:36:05) all these people to try to figure out (01:36:06) like what was the common thread. And the (01:36:08) common thread was basically like when we (01:36:10) were kids, my parents told us you take (01:36:13) care of all people. Like and so (01:36:15) obviously like this was just it it was a (01:36:18) the values were super clear to them. It (01:36:21) didn't matter who it was. It was these (01:36:23) are people that need to be taken care of (01:36:25) and it's the right thing to do and we're (01:36:26) going to do it and we didn't think about (01:36:28) it twice. It was it was a complete (01:36:30) transmission of values story as to why (01:36:33) they acted that way. That situation (01:36:35) hadn't happened before. There weren't (01:36:36) any rules. So what I see right now is (01:36:39) super short roots everywhere. People, (01:36:42) you know, even even we have a real life (01:36:44) thing going on today with all this (01:36:45) Tylenol stuff, right? And I saw a doctor (01:36:47) today say we should be talking about (01:36:50) whether Tylenol is safe. Not who said (01:36:54) what or which team or like like we're (01:36:56) losing the plot. like let's have like is (01:36:58) it safe or is it not safe like let's you (01:37:00) know it but now it's so much these days (01:37:03) who said it oh he said it I agree with (01:37:06) it even if (01:37:09) I agree with it because I think I'm on (01:37:11) that team even if it goes against (01:37:12) everything I've said in a different (01:37:13) context to me that is like being so lost (01:37:17) in your values that you don't even know (01:37:19) where center is for you (01:37:21) >> well this is the this is the (01:37:25) Um (01:37:28) there was a one of the values you listed (01:37:31) I think it was the last one I I'm trying (01:37:33) to remember but it was it was about (01:37:34) basically being authentic without (01:37:36) >> respectful authenticity (01:37:37) >> respectful authenticity and this kind of (01:37:39) cuts to that in a way because one of the (01:37:41) things that I think is happening is we (01:37:45) have gone through what I would what I (01:37:46) would what I think can properly be (01:37:48) understood as a second wave of political (01:37:50) correctness in this country. The first (01:37:52) being basically in the '9s. Yeah, (01:37:55) >> with like multiculturalism. I was in (01:37:56) college at the time and uh I remember (01:37:59) that. I remember it being part and then (01:38:00) it kind of died and then it came back in (01:38:03) a vengeance in form this woke stuff. And (01:38:07) I think we are facing this the like (01:38:12) resurgence of like I can say whatever I (01:38:14) want and be authentic. And if you're (01:38:17) inclined towards that or if you're like (01:38:18) capable of it, some people just don't (01:38:20) want to put their neck out and it's (01:38:22) understandable. But if you are, you can (01:38:25) sort of score points by being authentic. (01:38:27) Even being authentic in a way that's (01:38:29) politically incorrect. (01:38:31) The respectful part is interesting (01:38:33) because it cuts in the other way. Um, (01:38:35) you know, you know, we're (01:38:37) >> the more incendiary you are, the more (01:38:39) the algorithms value you. (01:38:41) >> Yeah. And and like, so this is I'm (01:38:44) curious. You you have a couple different (01:38:46) perspectives on this. One, as a somebody (01:38:49) who's got a digital marketing firm, (01:38:52) >> you understand the way these platforms (01:38:55) work, the way the digital landscape (01:38:57) works, how to navigate it for purposes. (01:38:59) >> Yeah. (01:39:00) >> As a parent, you've got your kids who (01:39:03) are living in this digital world. And (01:39:05) then as somebody that's out in the out (01:39:06) out there trying to talk about values, (01:39:08) you got it. How do you think about that (01:39:12) respectful authenticity? What does that (01:39:13) mean? (01:39:15) We we've what does that mean? Like how (01:39:18) can that help us? How can I help? (01:39:20) >> Look, again, this is personal to me. (01:39:22) It's how it's always been. Your values (01:39:23) shouldn't be aspirational. They be, you (01:39:25) know, I have always I've always hated (01:39:27) people that are disrespectful. Um (01:39:30) actually like, you know, frustrated I (01:39:31) get with kids friends and stuff. If I (01:39:33) would if they had disrespect, it just (01:39:35) like that's the blood boiling part for (01:39:37) me. But I've also I'm the person people (01:39:39) call um when they want to hear the (01:39:43) truth, you know, not oh like tell me the (01:39:46) story that I want to hear like is didn't (01:39:47) I make the right decision? I'm like you (01:39:49) want I mean you want me to tell you what (01:39:51) you want to hear or you want me to tell (01:39:52) you the truth. But I've always (01:39:53) appreciated this balance of being direct (01:39:55) and telling people the truth and I don't (01:39:57) like integ I like authenticity. (01:39:58) Authenticity to me is is what in your (01:40:01) head matching the words that you're (01:40:03) saying and the things that you're doing (01:40:05) because I can appreciate people who do (01:40:07) totally different things like but but (01:40:10) they're both authentic but they're just (01:40:12) they're consistent, right? But there's (01:40:13) so many people who think one thing and (01:40:15) say another. I I I'll I'll disagree with (01:40:17) you a little bit and I don't think (01:40:18) people rewarded for authenticity now. I (01:40:21) think the algorithm actually encourages (01:40:24) the opposite for a lot of people, which (01:40:26) is I've seen some people get incredible (01:40:28) promise now because I think they've (01:40:29) realized that certain hateful incendiary (01:40:32) things get more likes. And so what are (01:40:35) our kids trained on? If I post the real (01:40:37) authentic thing and no one likes it, (01:40:39) like you know, (01:40:42) I feel empty, right? It's got to be (01:40:44) enough that I said versus I say I've (01:40:46) noticed that if I if I start seeing some (01:40:49) stuff that may there's some people right (01:40:51) now that have had such shifts in three (01:40:54) or four years. If you go back like (01:40:56) they're not even the same person and I'm (01:40:58) like did they change or did they realize (01:41:01) this makes a lot more money you know and (01:41:03) what they and what they believe in. Um, (01:41:06) so again that's just for me trying to (01:41:09) that's basically what the two weeks (01:41:11) notice program was like where are (01:41:13) opportunities you know to be authentic (01:41:15) but be respectful and have you know like (01:41:17) a lot of we're talking about here like (01:41:19) these are hard complicated conversations (01:41:22) but you know we we we shouldn't beat (01:41:24) around them but that's true for me it (01:41:26) may not be for other people but when (01:41:28) people say they have a value of (01:41:29) integrity it's one of value and integ (01:41:31) integrity and family are my two most (01:41:33) common one-word values that I don't (01:41:35) really like cuz I don't think they help (01:41:37) you. And I think there's something (01:41:38) deeper beneath both of those that people (01:41:40) mean. But I'm like, what do you mean by (01:41:42) integrity? Like again, my version is I (01:41:45) like people who think something, say (01:41:47) something, and do the same thing. Like (01:41:50) that's that's different than telling the (01:41:51) truth or not telling the truth. (01:41:53) >> I mean, that's a good way to describe (01:41:55) integrity because even in the physical (01:41:57) sense, right? If you when we think about (01:41:59) something as physical integrity, it is (01:42:02) cons like it's like marble that you cut (01:42:05) and it's marble all the way through. (01:42:07) >> Yeah. Yeah. (01:42:08) >> Or or you know some the difference (01:42:09) between um gold and goldplated. (01:42:14) >> Yeah. (01:42:14) >> Um (01:42:16) the I think the thing I'm grappling with (01:42:19) or groping at is this. (01:42:22) I have found for myself that (01:42:28) the ego gets involved all the time, (01:42:32) >> right? And (01:42:36) I can kind of tell that when (01:42:41) actually let's come back to a good a (01:42:43) good example. I've had to do this a (01:42:45) couple times, so I think I can tell this (01:42:46) in a way that's stylized and doesn't (01:42:48) point towards any one particular person. (01:42:50) when I have had to (01:42:54) let someone go in the organ in the (01:42:56) organization over the past since 2011 of (01:42:59) being an actual employer where it's like (01:43:01) like (01:43:01) >> this isn't working (01:43:02) >> and it's like my job and it's like like (01:43:05) you know I have to I have to pay you or (01:43:08) I have to stop paying you. Um, it's (01:43:11) really painful and really difficult and (01:43:14) and and (01:43:17) it's a decision that you kind of have to (01:43:19) make and that I' I've had to learn how (01:43:21) to make in a way where I (01:43:24) have to try to be like true. It has to (01:43:27) be true. I have to not let my emotions (01:43:30) and also my desire to protect myself (01:43:32) from the discomfort of doing it because (01:43:34) that's actually been the bias I've had. (01:43:37) It's actually hard. I know you didn't (01:43:39) see it, but I wrote an article on this (01:43:40) recently and I named it relational (01:43:42) dissonance because we can't handle (01:43:44) cognitive dissonance. So, I like James. (01:43:47) James is not doing well in his job. Um, (01:43:50) so I have to start and I know I have to (01:43:52) fire James. So, what does my brain do to (01:43:54) solve that? It starts making James into (01:43:56) the bad guy. So, now it brings these (01:43:58) hames is lazy. James missed the thing. (01:44:01) So, now now I basically make it easier (01:44:04) to do that versus what I really should (01:44:07) do. And this is from the two is the (01:44:08) opposite. I should be like, I like James (01:44:11) a lot, but he's objectively not good at (01:44:13) his job, right? We do the camera's off (01:44:16) every third time that we're doing this. (01:44:17) And like, you can't be a cameraman if (01:44:19) you can't remember how to turn on the (01:44:20) camera. Just not in the right field. Um, (01:44:24) again, the thing would be to lean into (01:44:26) the relationship. James, love you, man, (01:44:28) but like this isn't working out. We need (01:44:31) to figure out something. But we all do, (01:44:34) we all struggle with that first thing (01:44:36) because we don't want to do a bad thing (01:44:38) to a nice person. If you don't, if you (01:44:39) hate the person, they're as easy, right? (01:44:42) >> Well, I think it's like but it's also (01:44:43) the selfish part. The e the selfish part (01:44:45) of not wanting to have to do the thing (01:44:47) that's uncomfortable. (01:44:48) >> Yeah, I'm a good guy, so I wouldn't do a (01:44:50) bad thing. (01:44:50) >> Like, but I think this I think we (01:44:53) encountered this a lot in our lives. We (01:44:56) encounter it all the time. we have to (01:44:57) make these decisions and how to present (01:44:59) ourselves and how to talk about things (01:45:01) and and and and in and choices to make. (01:45:04) And I feel like on one hand, (01:45:10) the values you're talking about, these (01:45:11) values you would die for, if that's not (01:45:14) fundamental to who you are, I don't know (01:45:16) what is. (01:45:17) >> Yeah. (01:45:18) In another sense, I feel like a lot of (01:45:23) people (01:45:25) have made too many things that shouldn't (01:45:27) be taken personally personal, especially (01:45:30) in the polit in the political. And so (01:45:32) you end up in this world where if I (01:45:34) disagree with you, I have embedded my (01:45:37) sense of my politics or whatever. Pick (01:45:39) the issue. Pick the issue. But I'll just (01:45:41) I'll use politics broadly. (01:45:43) >> It's like I can't be I can't I can't (01:45:46) like you anymore. I can't engage you. (01:45:48) You're my enemy. (01:45:50) And it's like it's it's it's personal (01:45:53) for you. It's become the politics be the (01:45:55) political becomes the personal. And this (01:45:58) is kind of wrapped up in values that it (01:46:00) isn't like easy. It's easy to say we (01:46:02) shouldn't do that. It's hard to execute. (01:46:05) >> But it's like what is your So I I look (01:46:07) at this in parenting. I'm like, look, if (01:46:09) you can have these values with your (01:46:11) kids, and I always say like what I try (01:46:13) to do with my kids, there's a lot of (01:46:15) things that they can do that would piss (01:46:16) me off that aren't actually violations (01:46:18) of my values. If I get upset about (01:46:21) everything to the same degree, they (01:46:23) won't know the difference. So, I get (01:46:26) really upset when there is a thing of (01:46:28) disrespect or non- resilience or (01:46:30) non-healthy. And the other stuff I have (01:46:32) to learn to sort of blow it off. I kind (01:46:34) of think this is sort of the problem, (01:46:36) right? When you make everything (01:46:38) something, maybe it is a values issue (01:46:40) for some people. Maybe it is I can't (01:46:41) talk to you because you just don't tell (01:46:43) the truth. And that's like a a value for (01:46:47) me. But I think for a lot of people, (01:46:50) if they could connect to the values a (01:46:52) little bit, they can decide that this (01:46:54) other stuff just isn't worth (01:46:57) the the angst and the animosity and all (01:46:59) the team sports and and all that stuff. (01:47:01) And and look, we've talked a lot about (01:47:03) the values, but but and and and we (01:47:06) should spend some time al like, okay, so (01:47:07) how do how do I figure them out like, (01:47:10) you know, and (01:47:11) >> you know, it starts with in in in the (01:47:13) book and and and obviously there's book (01:47:15) and the course and that's great. People (01:47:16) get that, but there are these six (01:47:18) questions that people, you know, could (01:47:20) answer and they always want the notes (01:47:22) and so I just put them at (01:47:22) roberglazer.comix (01:47:24) if you want the questions. (01:47:25) >> I've got them right in front of me, but (01:47:26) let's go through them. (01:47:27) >> They're right there. and and and so (01:47:29) first like you got to like if you want (01:47:31) to test drive this you got to kind of (01:47:33) start to see you know what your values (01:47:34) are. So the most interesting thing we'll (01:47:36) run this experiment with you one of the (01:47:38) greatest tests of a value for me and I (01:47:40) had this hysterical epiphous breakout on (01:47:42) a different interview last week which (01:47:44) I'll explain if we have time but um the (01:47:47) anti-value test is so interesting for (01:47:49) people because the violation of a value (01:47:50) should be like physically annoying or (01:47:53) uncomfortable. So I I asked this guy (01:47:55) theme too. But what is this sort of a (01:47:57) question? What is something about a (01:47:59) person or a behavior or whatever that (01:48:01) drives you absolutely crazy? (01:48:02) >> Me. (01:48:03) >> Yeah. (01:48:06) >> Um I can this is this one's pretty easy. (01:48:09) >> I'm sure you're picturing probably an (01:48:10) actual story in your head. (01:48:11) >> Well, and I and I and I rag on my older (01:48:14) son for this the most, but I get it. But (01:48:16) everybody here knows it. I mean, at at (01:48:18) some level you could say like low (01:48:19) conscientiousness, like not paying (01:48:22) attention to the details. Yeah. Like if (01:48:24) I ask if I say, "Please clean the please (01:48:27) clean the kitchen and I come back and (01:48:30) the pot is still sitting there on the (01:48:32) range, it just I just it drives me (01:48:35) absolutely crazy. It drives me crazy if (01:48:37) there's execution stuff on video and (01:48:39) it's like there's errors and it's not (01:48:41) like I fly off the handle on this stuff, (01:48:43) but if it's repeated, it's like nah, (01:48:45) this isn't working." Like (01:48:47) doing things right. Like do it the right (01:48:49) If you're going to do it, do it the (01:48:51) right way. Don't halfass it. halfassing (01:48:54) stuff drives me up a wall. (01:48:56) >> So, is it there's there's a bunch in (01:48:57) there, but see how your your your (01:48:59) physiology as you got to the end of that (01:49:02) is and then you said halfass it and (01:49:04) you're like, you know, really locked in (01:49:06) there. So, so, so if you think about (01:49:08) what is it about someone doing it (01:49:11) correctly? Is it about listening? Is it (01:49:13) about the conscientiousness? Which one (01:49:15) of those sort of tracks was the more of, (01:49:17) you know, sort of track? Like what was (01:49:19) the most Because you said you said a few (01:49:20) different things in there. I mean, (01:49:22) >> is it sort of like if you're going to do (01:49:23) it, do it well? (01:49:24) >> I think it's like it's um (01:49:31) >> Yeah. Let me think about this for a (01:49:33) second. (01:49:36) >> Halfassing it was your closest emotion (01:49:38) there. (01:49:38) >> Yeah. I mean, I guess what what I'd say (01:49:40) is this. I'm very tolerant of somebody (01:49:42) making mistakes. (01:49:43) A mistake is when you try and you get it (01:49:46) wrong, but you were trying and you were (01:49:48) putting in the effort. when you simply (01:49:51) didn't do the do it. (01:49:54) >> Yeah. (01:49:54) >> And it looks like it's just failing to (01:49:56) put in the effort (01:49:58) >> necessary to complete the job correctly. (01:50:02) >> It it's it feels fundamentally (01:50:05) disrespectful. It's like you don't care (01:50:07) enough about this to do it right. You're (01:50:10) you're it's it's it's a there's a bunch (01:50:12) of (01:50:12) >> It's about doing it right or is it not (01:50:14) even trying? Cuz it's an interesting and (01:50:16) they look we may be tapping into two (01:50:18) different values. It it just it points (01:50:21) towards for me it points towards a bunch (01:50:23) of (01:50:25) >> a bunch of stuff that's but it is it is (01:50:28) commitment. (01:50:29) >> Yeah, (01:50:30) >> it's commitment to (01:50:32) >> lack of effort is is is your kryptonite. (01:50:35) >> I just can't it's like and some people (01:50:38) are like it just depends. It depends on (01:50:42) what it is. fundamentally (01:50:44) like (01:50:47) if you're going to clean your room, I (01:50:49) want to see that room is really clean. (01:50:51) >> Yeah. (01:50:51) >> And then if it's repeatedly not clean, (01:50:54) then it's like this. Why won't you do (01:50:57) like I I kind of take it personally. (01:51:00) >> Like if you're going to do it, do it (01:51:02) well. Is that the the the value? (01:51:04) >> I mean, actually, we did this exercise (01:51:05) because um Matteo's school acting had us (01:51:09) do these family things. (01:51:10) >> Feel like you're Bill Bich. like do your (01:51:12) job. (01:51:12) >> Yeah. (01:51:13) >> It was like the the our family slogan (01:51:15) was the Pola family does things right (01:51:18) and the doing them right. Yeah. (01:51:20) >> Some people say, "Oh, we do hard (01:51:21) things." It's like, "No, I want it done (01:51:23) right." (01:51:23) >> All right. So So it's funny. So you (01:51:25) probably are a rightway uh wide person, (01:51:28) which is similar to my wife and that uh (01:51:31) generally people with that orientation (01:51:34) they they you cannot get them to accept (01:51:36) anything that they don't believe is (01:51:38) right. They're willing to change their (01:51:39) mind, but you cannot force them onto it. (01:51:42) They have to believe it is the right (01:51:43) thing or they inherently uncomfortable. (01:51:46) Um, (01:51:47) >> so now I'll ask you, I'll test this. So (01:51:50) I think back like childhood growing up (01:51:53) or whatever. Is this a for or against (01:51:55) thing? Like is this like was someone did (01:51:58) someone (01:51:59) >> this is for so my dad is a surgeon and (01:52:03) my dad lives this value of doing things (01:52:07) right and raised me in it he soaked me (01:52:10) in it (01:52:11) >> like for you know so as a surgeon and a (01:52:14) good one um and I say good one because (01:52:17) like anytime a patient would approach us (01:52:21) throughout my growing up he just he your (01:52:24) nose and throat surgeon He he was (01:52:26) constantly getting approached by (01:52:27) grateful patients. So that's one of the (01:52:29) ways I knew and he has great bedside (01:52:31) manner. (01:52:32) >> Um but here's perfect example. The way (01:52:35) my dad said to study is read the first (01:52:39) chapter then read the first and second (01:52:42) then read the first second and third (01:52:43) then read the first second third fourth. (01:52:45) He's the he is like conscientiousness (01:52:48) incarnate. He's more conscientious than (01:52:50) anyone I know including myself. But I (01:52:53) love my dad. He's my hero. And so he is (01:52:57) the do it right. He is the okay, we're (01:52:58) going to do this. When he gives (01:53:00) instructions for how to go somewhere, he (01:53:02) tells you which lane to be in at what (01:53:05) time. (01:53:05) >> So, so look, I have this is very (01:53:07) personal to me to work with. So, here's (01:53:10) what I found again with someone with (01:53:12) that. You're the type of person that I (01:53:15) would really want to make the unplug or (01:53:18) plug the machine, you know, or the big (01:53:20) thoughtful decisions. You also will (01:53:22) bring that entire apparatus to pizza (01:53:25) versus Chinese food where it is like a a (01:53:29) bazooka to a gunfight, you know, in (01:53:31) terms of like like when there's a really (01:53:34) small decision and there's not really a (01:53:36) wrong thing, it it it it becomes an (01:53:39) over, you know, analysis. (01:53:40) >> The way I've um accounted for that in (01:53:43) general is um and I found this to be (01:53:46) true even in like the edit room. (01:53:48) >> Yeah. (01:53:49) If I'm in the room, I'm going to end up (01:53:51) taking charge. So, I just don't I don't (01:53:53) go into the room until everyone knows (01:53:54) like I'm going to come in the room and (01:53:56) I'm going to do my thing and I'm going (01:53:57) to tell you what to do. Yeah. (01:53:58) >> But I'm perfectly happy. Go do it. (01:54:00) >> Yeah. That's good. That's good (01:54:01) self-awareness. And and again, if you if (01:54:04) you're leading in the workplace and you (01:54:05) understand that that's a value, what (01:54:07) you'd want to do is go to team like, (01:54:09) look, it's really important to me that (01:54:11) things are right. So if you if you are (01:54:14) unsure or you need more information, I (01:54:16) would rather you ask me than not ask me. (01:54:19) Like I generally think that the moral (01:54:21) thing to do is the better thing to do. (01:54:22) This is when it to so so here's one I've (01:54:26) seen a lot people who have a real core (01:54:29) value of trust. Uh it is almost 99% a a (01:54:34) negative against thing cuz when I ask (01:54:36) someone an adult, hey uh and here's the (01:54:38) test cuz you'll say to someone well I'm (01:54:40) hearing a real strong theme of trust (01:54:42) here. Let me ask you if you break (01:54:44) someone's trust if someone breaks your (01:54:46) trust does it matter what they did or (01:54:48) whatever or are they dead to you? And (01:54:50) you know some people will be like well (01:54:51) it's and these people are like dead to (01:54:53) me like like pan like dead and gone. So (01:54:56) I'll say look I don't know what it is. I (01:54:58) don't I'm not going to ask what it is, (01:54:59) but did you have a violation of trust (01:55:01) that was pretty significant during your (01:55:02) childhood? And usually there's a tear or (01:55:05) an ash in face or something like Okay, (01:55:07) so just understand (01:55:09) this is probably how your friend group (01:55:11) works. There's a tight group and you (01:55:13) know it's hard to get in and you've had (01:55:14) them for a really long time and no one (01:55:16) gets in. You know, your spouse by the (01:55:18) way, they cheat on you, you're they're (01:55:20) never recovering like you know, let's be (01:55:22) clear on that in in the partner thing. (01:55:25) But man, in the workplace, huge (01:55:27) difference if you know this and don't (01:55:28) know this. So, I work with some people (01:55:29) who who found out this out afterwards. (01:55:33) And so, how do they operate in the (01:55:35) workplace? They just organize people (01:55:37) into can be trusted or not be trusted. (01:55:40) The people have no idea about this and (01:55:42) it's arbitrary. So, you're 5 minutes (01:55:43) late to a meeting, you kind of can't be (01:55:46) found in the afternoon, you miss a (01:55:48) deadline, and you're like in jail with a (01:55:49) key thrown out with this person. And if (01:55:52) they don't know it, they can't (01:55:53) communicate it. And so what our leaders (01:55:55) have constantly done after figuring out (01:55:57) this stuff they go back to their team (01:55:58) and they be like John just so you know (01:56:00) like trust is super important to me as (01:56:02) you join my team like I I it's once it's (01:56:04) broken it's very hard to get back here (01:56:07) are the ways that it's lost if I feel (01:56:09) distant or you are feeling distance from (01:56:11) me it's probably because there's been a (01:56:12) break of trust and we should come and (01:56:15) have you know a discussion now imagine (01:56:18) if you knew that as the employee let's (01:56:20) go back to that earlier scenario you (01:56:22) lost your child care You're showing up (01:56:24) to work late. You're erratic. I am being (01:56:28) signaled. I cannot trust John. It's like (01:56:30) it it the problem is it's real danger (01:56:32) signals like for the person like this is (01:56:34) someone who can't be trusted. (01:56:36) >> John knows this and he says to me, I (01:56:38) just want I'm not telling anyone this, (01:56:39) but like (01:56:41) >> I feel embarrassed like we lost my child (01:56:42) care or this is going on in my marriage (01:56:44) and that's why I'm late. Suddenly (01:56:46) totally different game. You were willing (01:56:48) to trust me with that information. like (01:56:50) it the I have just seen the leaders for (01:56:54) whom it's so dominant in their (01:56:56) leadership style but they're so unaware (01:56:59) of it that is an Achilles heel versus (01:57:02) they're like look this is me here's my (01:57:04) playbook you should be telling everyone (01:57:06) like I'm very clear on what I say it in (01:57:08) a different way because mine's more (01:57:09) better yours I go I I have an opinion on (01:57:12) everything so you're asking me about red (01:57:14) versus black t-shirts for the I'm going (01:57:15) to tell you my opinion if you don't need (01:57:17) my input on the color of the shirt don't (01:57:19) ask like you know that's how you learn (01:57:22) to not drive people crazy around it. (01:57:24) >> Yeah. I even at home on the um because (01:57:27) of the if you're going to (01:57:30) I think this is a generic male female (01:57:33) thing which is if you ask a man in (01:57:35) general on average anything we want to (01:57:38) solve the problem (01:57:39) >> problem solving versus listening. Yeah. (01:57:41) So, and I'm bad at this and and I still (01:57:44) do it. And so, when my when my wife, who (01:57:46) we also work together and always have, (01:57:48) bring something up. (01:57:51) I have It's like, do you want me to (01:57:53) engage or not? Cuz if not, I would (01:57:55) rather you not even just just do it and (01:57:56) don't even tell me about it. (01:57:57) >> Well, someone just told me recently they (01:57:59) said they learned the line to say say, (01:58:01) are you looking for solutions? Are you (01:58:02) looking for me just to listen? That that (01:58:04) was a good And I'm like, we all know we (01:58:06) should say that, but we don't. (01:58:08) >> Okay. What else you got? You got some uh (01:58:10) other question other other interrogation (01:58:13) of my values that can help me understand (01:58:14) your frame. (01:58:15) >> So what's what's let's see if we can get (01:58:16) to a different one. Uh what's something (01:58:19) this is another question. What what do (01:58:20) people come to you for for advice (01:58:23) regularly or help (01:58:31) >> their personal problems (01:58:34) >> and and why do they come to you? What (01:58:36) are they hoping that that you'll get? (01:58:38) Why do they come to you and not someone (01:58:39) else? (01:58:43) >> I mean, this might even sound different (01:58:44) or incuff to someone, but I like I I'm (01:58:50) try to listen and I try to actually (01:58:51) figure out what's the true thing that's (01:58:53) best for them, (01:58:54) >> right? (01:58:54) >> I think that's what that's what I try to (01:58:57) do. It's been this way for forever. like (01:58:59) when I was a manager at at Viacom, (01:59:02) I I was often put in the role of having (01:59:04) to like adjudicate the the challenging (01:59:07) case (01:59:09) and it was like (01:59:11) I think it is connected actually as I'm (01:59:14) thinking about this now it is kind of (01:59:15) connected to the doing things right (01:59:17) because (01:59:17) >> I was going to say that could be the it (01:59:19) could be so dominant. Yeah. (01:59:20) >> Because the truth (01:59:23) >> I'm a deeply deeply ideological person. (01:59:25) I really am. (01:59:26) >> Yeah. And I want to know that my beliefs (01:59:31) are true. (01:59:32) >> Yeah. Or right. (01:59:34) >> Right. Like this is true. (01:59:35) >> Yeah. (01:59:36) >> And like false I don't like. So true. I (01:59:39) want to know and I'm willing to hear out (01:59:41) if I'm wrong and and I I will switch. (01:59:44) >> I just remember I just said that to you (01:59:46) two minutes ago. I go right people can (01:59:48) will change what they believe is right, (01:59:50) but only on their own terms, not if you (01:59:53) try to force them into it. it it it it (01:59:56) doesn't work. (01:59:57) >> But I think like if someone comes to me (01:59:58) and they're struggling with something, (02:00:01) >> I will go into a kind of socratic and (02:00:03) like like investigation. Okay. Well, (02:00:05) what is it? Is it that? What's going on? (02:00:07) How you have you tried this? Have you (02:00:09) tried that? Like I don't bring my own (02:00:11) stuff to it. I just go into like (02:00:13) investigator mode and that does seem to (02:00:14) be helpful to people because they're I (02:00:17) actually think you know what's one of (02:00:18) the most interesting things about you (02:00:21) know we were talking off camerara about (02:00:23) like consulting and how that whole (02:00:24) business is kind of going to get get (02:00:25) fried like the Accentur of the world or (02:00:28) the McKenzies (02:00:29) >> it's like it's called chat GPT um but (02:00:33) there is this funny thing where I think (02:00:39) we are kind of bad at judging ourselves (02:00:42) and can be pretty good at (02:00:44) dispassionately judging for other people (02:00:47) what we're bad for judging ourselves. (02:00:49) >> Yeah. It's cobbler's kid. (02:00:50) >> Yeah. So, right. Exactly. It's like so (02:00:53) there being disinterested (02:00:56) is this like super important thing to be (02:01:00) able to have access to when you need a (02:01:02) disinterested party. Like, okay, I'm (02:01:05) having this problem. You've got no skin (02:01:08) in the game. I'm just going to lay it (02:01:10) out for you. (02:01:12) if you you don't know anything about the (02:01:13) particulars, you're not an expert in any (02:01:15) of it, but you're just like a (02:01:16) disinterested party that can listen. (02:01:19) >> That's like super powerful. (02:01:21) >> Yeah. It's funny. I I I think there's (02:01:23) something about about um listening for (02:01:26) you or hearing or whatever because (02:01:28) obviously even the business that you're (02:01:29) in or people's stories like I I think (02:01:31) that's actually why people come to you (02:01:34) is almost this combination of both of (02:01:36) those. Like my guess is people that (02:01:38) don't listen probably really frustrate (02:01:40) you. (02:01:42) See I always say like before people (02:01:45) answer me when I do that their face (02:01:48) answers me. They just get there's a (02:01:50) physiological you know reaction. So (02:01:53) that's like those probably work a lot in (02:01:55) in in tandem you know to you. People a (02:01:58) you're a good listener b you're good at (02:02:00) sorting through the facts and and kind (02:02:02) of what's right. So if I now I started (02:02:04) playing around with this, I'd be okay. (02:02:05) How would you like a job where (02:02:07) everyone's yelling, no one listens to (02:02:09) anyone, you can't make any decisions, (02:02:11) right? It would you could start playing (02:02:13) with the avatar. (02:02:15) >> So back to I was saying interestingly (02:02:17) like I'll do this. So and once I figure (02:02:19) out someone's four values, if I'm (02:02:21) feeling creative enough, I will create (02:02:23) an avatar that's the opposite of all of (02:02:25) it or a job. And I'm like tell me like (02:02:27) what is that? and they're like like just (02:02:29) just this like revolting face look of (02:02:32) like that sounds just horrible like I (02:02:34) would why would I want to talk to that (02:02:36) person or have that job. What was (02:02:38) interesting was this host was I was (02:02:40) like, "Tell me a story about something (02:02:41) you can't stand." And he tells me a (02:02:43) super specific story like it was (02:02:44) yesterday. And I was like, "Huh?" And he (02:02:47) was a little dubious. He's a, you know, (02:02:49) a little, you know, uh, you know, high (02:02:51) intellect guy who wants proof and data (02:02:53) on things. And I was like, definitely (02:02:55) there's a core value in there. And as we (02:02:57) unpacked it, so so what I joke around is (02:03:00) if I can do the opposite on four, that's (02:03:02) the super villain. This story was (02:03:04) actually a super villain. In five (02:03:06) minutes we found out it violated three (02:03:07) of his core values. So, so you know cred (02:03:11) he kept saying you look you can't the (02:03:13) story was that someone showed up in a (02:03:15) conversation didn't listen to the other (02:03:17) person asserted a [ __ ] theory and (02:03:21) like you know acted unhumble you know in (02:03:24) doing it and like (02:03:27) listening credibility and humility were (02:03:30) not those one words but they were (02:03:32) basically his core and and that the (02:03:34) credibility thing just he just kept you (02:03:36) know like your credibility is important. (02:03:39) I'm like, "All right, tell like like and (02:03:42) this is not a guy be you I'm like this (02:03:44) like where does that come from?" He's (02:03:46) like, "Well, like of course that's (02:03:47) family stuff like you know." So I we (02:03:49) didn't get more into it, but I I think (02:03:51) there was probably a dad who said a lot (02:03:54) of things in a real credible way, (02:03:58) strong voice of authority as a kid. And (02:04:00) this kid is knowing now is brilliant. (02:04:02) And as he got older, he realized those (02:04:05) things were not true. And those things (02:04:07) were not those things were not backed by (02:04:09) fact but they were said in such an (02:04:11) authoritative bullying way that they (02:04:14) were to be accepted as truth. So now he (02:04:17) is very distrustful of people who I had (02:04:21) a very similar story with an employee. I (02:04:23) mean these things are fascinating when (02:04:24) you hear where they come from. She and (02:04:27) again to her leadership this day you (02:04:31) must bring facts and data to convince (02:04:33) her of anything. You can't bring a (02:04:35) theory or a hunch or whatever. Why? She (02:04:37) basically had a conspiracy theorist (02:04:39) mother as a kid who told her all of (02:04:41) these things that were wacky and at some (02:04:45) point she realized they all weren't (02:04:46) true. So, it's very logical that a (02:04:49) person like that (02:04:50) >> were true. (02:04:51) >> It's very logical that a person like (02:04:53) that would grow up and say, "Look, like (02:04:56) you have to prove I need to see the (02:04:58) proof like of of whatever your theory (02:05:01) is." And super interesting because she (02:05:03) can that was able to help her in the (02:05:06) workplace to be able to communicate to (02:05:08) her being like I'm not being short with (02:05:09) you just understand like when you want (02:05:11) to get my buy into something I'm I I (02:05:15) need to see the case. I need to see the (02:05:17) the data behind it. And his story was so (02:05:20) similar to that because he just kept (02:05:21) saying you ha you like passion you have (02:05:23) to be credible like and I'm like that's (02:05:26) so strong but that I can always I can (02:05:28) just sense when it comes from somewhere. (02:05:30) I mean, I um (02:05:36) treating other people (02:05:40) with like they don't matter or that like (02:05:43) they're below you or like they're not a (02:05:47) person, like they're not a person of (02:05:48) equal dignity (02:05:49) >> is pretty much an almost instantly (02:05:53) fireable offense for me. (02:05:54) >> Yeah. So elit elitism is not a not a big (02:05:57) thing with (02:05:57) >> you. But it's not even about I mean it (02:06:00) can manifest as as being an elitist (02:06:03) >> but just disrespect or (02:06:05) >> Yeah. Like you know so I've for for a (02:06:07) long time I I I I've directed (02:06:09) commercials and stuff and and like in (02:06:11) like the sort of whether it's a big (02:06:14) movie or a big commercial it's very (02:06:16) hierarchial. I mean you know you're you (02:06:19) know this sort of thing. So, um, (02:06:24) maybe it's funny (02:06:25) >> your value is probably no one's better (02:06:26) than anyone or something like that. (02:06:28) >> I I have a strong sense of equality in (02:06:30) that way. And I think the funny thing I (02:06:32) think now that I'm thinking about it, (02:06:34) um, (02:06:36) you know, my dad is a surgeon, but he's (02:06:38) a South Philly guy that like (02:06:42) I like like one of the things when I (02:06:45) think about my dad and the stuff I did (02:06:46) growing up, it was like crawling under (02:06:48) the crawl space getting covered in pink (02:06:51) panther insulation, which is itchy and (02:06:53) horrible. (02:06:54) >> Took a few years off your life for that. (02:06:56) >> It's like But that sense of like (02:06:58) >> nothing's beneath you. (02:07:00) >> No. And like, you know, and (02:07:03) >> no or yes, you mean yes. Nothing. I have (02:07:05) I I take almost pride in like I No, I'll (02:07:09) get under there and fix that myself. (02:07:11) >> Yeah. (02:07:12) >> In fact, I'll do it just so that you all (02:07:14) can see that that nothing's bene beneath (02:07:17) any of us. And if you act like things (02:07:19) are beneath you or if you treat other (02:07:21) people as if they are beneath you, it is (02:07:24) like a violation that can't really be. (02:07:26) >> So, look at this. And in in how many (02:07:28) minutes we're were circled around three (02:07:29) of these pretty strongly, right? And (02:07:31) again, you're going to think about him. (02:07:33) So, if I thought about your work (02:07:34) environments, there's going to be a lot (02:07:35) of listening. There's going to be a lot (02:07:37) of debate about what's right and there's (02:07:39) going to be a lot of not hierarchy, you (02:07:41) know, and and that and flat (02:07:43) organizations. (02:07:44) >> And it's and I think the thing is it's (02:07:46) like it's it's um (02:07:49) >> Yeah, it is. It all, you know, it's dad (02:07:51) saves America. It all comes back to your (02:07:53) relationship with your dad. It is it is (02:07:55) all childhood stuff. Yours aren't (02:07:58) positive. A lot of people's are are not (02:08:02) right. And I I or again there could be (02:08:04) some real thing. Look, there is probably (02:08:06) someone who got so tired of having to do (02:08:09) all the things that they actually became (02:08:11) a certain things are beneath you, right? (02:08:12) It just it connects differently, you (02:08:15) know, for different people. But yeah, (02:08:16) these things are these things are (02:08:18) they're deep, right? I mean, I I'll give (02:08:20) you one other story along these lines, (02:08:22) which is, you know, we built we we built (02:08:24) a house and um we were renting down the (02:08:27) street and I was go to the site. It's (02:08:29) like right around the corner and and we (02:08:30) I go to the uh site every day and I love (02:08:32) the guys the the Vice brothers. So, if (02:08:34) you're looking for a house in Austin, (02:08:35) hire the Vice Brothers. They're two (02:08:37) carpenters. Really quality work. And one (02:08:41) of these days, um, the guys are talking, (02:08:44) um, and he and they say, you know, they (02:08:46) were on a job site, and it's not the (02:08:48) first time they've heard things like (02:08:49) this, but the their client, the guy that (02:08:52) was hire had hired them to build the (02:08:54) house, said to his son in earshot of (02:08:57) them, you know, you got to work hard, (02:08:59) you got to do well in school because you (02:09:02) don't want to end up swinging a hammer (02:09:03) for the rest of your life. And even (02:09:06) saying that, I can feel myself like (02:09:09) filling with a kind of rage. (02:09:11) >> You're giving us a video of what it (02:09:14) looks like when your core value is (02:09:16) violated. (02:09:17) >> It's like, how dare you say that in (02:09:18) front of him. (02:09:19) >> See, but here's what I would argue. (02:09:21) Maybe you walk away with a new found (02:09:22) thing in life. It's it's the electric (02:09:25) fence. You've known these things your (02:09:28) life. You've known them. You get (02:09:30) electrocuted a little bit. You go away (02:09:32) from it. There's a big difference maybe (02:09:34) now that you can put some word on this (02:09:37) and be like that's why it's driving me (02:09:39) crazy or that person I need to fire (02:09:42) because they like I think most we (02:09:44) operate with gut around it. When you (02:09:47) actually can put some names on these (02:09:49) it's kind of like it makes it a lot (02:09:51) easier. (02:09:52) >> It's um (02:09:54) >> yeah like I actually I can feel like my (02:09:56) throat is actually like aggravated (02:09:58) thinking about (02:09:59) >> I can create you I can create you a (02:10:00) super villain. Yeah. That that story (02:10:03) that story was so outrageous to me. It (02:10:06) just like I saw red. (02:10:08) >> Yeah. (02:10:08) >> It was like (02:10:09) >> Well, hey, it's not right also. Right. (02:10:11) >> Yeah. Yeah. It's false. But just the (02:10:14) level of disrespect. (02:10:17) Um (02:10:18) >> All right. Well, you're you're you're (02:10:19) proving a lot of things with me. If we (02:10:21) could just use your I always say and I (02:10:23) joke around. I when I do this anti- (02:10:25) thing, the the if I ask people and (02:10:28) they're thinking about it, I'm like, (02:10:29) "Nope, not not breaking up the right (02:10:31) tree. If I ask them and they go like (02:10:34) like I'm like, "Oh, right right tree." (02:10:36) Yeah. Um (02:10:40) >> how have you changed the way you (02:10:43) navigate the world as a business leader (02:10:46) and as a father? (02:10:48) >> Yeah. (02:10:48) >> Having like lived with this and and and (02:10:51) what like how are you a different person (02:10:54) today than you were let's say 10 years (02:10:56) ago or before you began (02:10:58) >> put so much energy into this kind of (02:11:00) thinking? Yeah, I'm not about more. So, (02:11:02) when I figured this stuff out, there was (02:11:04) a whole bunch of things I doubled down (02:11:06) on and there was a bunch of things that (02:11:07) I stopped doing. And I think as a (02:11:10) parent, what was really cool was to give (02:11:15) myself permission to not worry about or (02:11:18) do stuff or not have guilt around it and (02:11:20) understand that actually I am going to (02:11:23) be best with my kids when I am helping (02:11:25) to figure themself to something new. (02:11:28) having a respectfully authentic (02:11:30) conversation with them, working with (02:11:32) them on their independence and (02:11:34) self-reliance. My kids all have their (02:11:36) own jobs. They all went to overnight (02:11:37) camp like you know the the these I'm (02:11:41) going to show up for my kids best in the (02:11:43) service of their core values. So I (02:11:45) violated this rule this week cuz I only (02:11:46) have one kid left at home. But one of (02:11:48) the things I gave us permission to do is (02:11:49) I stopped going to parents nights. I I (02:11:52) was the ADD kid in school. Like I barely (02:11:54) could pay attention anyway. and these (02:11:55) parents nights. I'm like not even in the (02:11:57) room and I'm sitting in the little chair (02:11:58) and they read the same thing over and (02:12:00) over. I'm like I actually get nothing (02:12:02) out of this. My wife really enjoys it (02:12:04) and that's great. Like I cuz I I I I (02:12:07) trust the teachers to do their job. We (02:12:08) send the kids to good school. We live in (02:12:10) a good town and it doesn't (02:12:11) >> trust but verified doesn't make me a (02:12:14) better father. Like so like I have (02:12:17) there's stuff I have to be like look I (02:12:19) my wife is so much better at certain (02:12:21) things and I just like you're that (02:12:22) you're I'm going to let you do that. I'm (02:12:25) I'm definitely like I'll take them on (02:12:26) the obstacle course. She is so much (02:12:28) better at empathy. Like I just it's I'm (02:12:31) not as good at it. Right. When they need (02:12:33) empathy, she's the right parent for (02:12:35) them. When they need a little tough love (02:12:37) and a little pushing, she's not as good (02:12:40) as dad. Like and and and I'm better off. (02:12:42) And we try to we try to bridge the (02:12:44) difference. But I but I think like it's (02:12:47) really cool to be like if you were (02:12:48) thinking of like oh what are the (02:12:50) activities I could do with my kids where (02:12:52) about solving problems or figuring out (02:12:54) the right answer or that show them that (02:12:56) you know people are all on the same page (02:12:59) or or listening like that's the stuff (02:13:02) where you're going to light up and (02:13:03) you're going to want to do it. But to do (02:13:05) more of that there's other stuff that (02:13:07) you can't do. So, I was thinking about (02:13:09) this. It's funny like there's a lot of (02:13:10) things sometimes where I'll tell my kids (02:13:12) no or but my daughter's like I want to (02:13:14) run a 10K for the first time. She's down (02:13:16) at Emry. I love when they do things for (02:13:19) the first time. That's (02:13:20) >> I'm flying down there overnight. It's a (02:13:22) stupid amount of money. I'm running it (02:13:23) with her because like that's important (02:13:25) to me and that's that's important to her (02:13:27) and that's a great, (02:13:29) >> you know, intersection. Um, so (02:13:31) >> and you can run a 10K and not be (02:13:33) vomiting halfway through. That's pretty (02:13:34) good. (02:13:34) >> Yeah. I actually like it's pretty (02:13:36) interesting. So, it's funny. This is the (02:13:38) tech world. I ran I I've been getting (02:13:41) myself in really good shape, hence my (02:13:43) core value of health because I'm I (02:13:45) turned 50 and I'm trying to be (02:13:47) biologically 40 at 50. That's been my (02:13:49) goal for the year. And my watches, both (02:13:51) my smart watches have help without doing (02:13:53) any uh so tech bro (02:13:58) or any of that stuff. (02:13:59) >> Your kids are not going to be your blood (02:14:00) bank. None of that. (02:14:01) >> No, no, no. This is all just more sleep, (02:14:04) more exercise, more strength training. I (02:14:06) used to do cardio, so I haven't really (02:14:07) run long in a while. And I went and ran (02:14:09) four miles the other day and then I took (02:14:11) the stats from the run on my watch and I (02:14:14) put it in chat GPT and it and I said, (02:14:16) "How long would I need based on then?" (02:14:18) It had the heart rate and everything. It (02:14:19) was like, "No, you could have done it (02:14:20) today at this pace, but you need here's (02:14:22) a 3-week training plan." It was actually (02:14:24) I was like, "This is amazing." Like what (02:14:26) it processed the data. Uh so yeah, again (02:14:29) I I I'm I'm going to hop on a plane, fly (02:14:32) down, run it further, and fly back (02:14:33) because that is a that is a being better (02:14:36) independence. It's like a four core (02:14:39) value checkbox, right? So I'm excited to (02:14:41) to do that (02:14:44) as we um wrap up. We have (02:14:49) we have a world that's (02:14:52) sort of starving for (02:14:55) I would say starving for a healthy (02:14:57) normal (02:14:58) >> meaning. Yeah. (02:14:59) >> I think that there's there's the there's (02:15:01) meaning there's a lot of things that are (02:15:03) going wrong. (02:15:05) Um, and (02:15:08) there's a story that I've found to be (02:15:11) unpersuasive, even though I think it's (02:15:14) true, which is, and we've kind of (02:15:15) touched on it, which is like, man, 100 (02:15:18) years ago, life sucked. Life's great. (02:15:20) Shut up. Like, that's sort of how it get (02:15:22) that gets received. Like, the we've been (02:15:24) here before, it was the tractor, and it (02:15:26) disrupted X, Y, and Z, and life's a lot (02:15:28) better now. (02:15:29) >> Yeah. I I have watched how ineffective (02:15:34) that is hitting someone who feels like (02:15:36) their life is hard because it's like (02:15:38) well I don't care about farmers kids (02:15:41) like I don't care. (02:15:41) >> Yeah. (02:15:42) >> So our kids and young adults are are (02:15:46) struggling along a lot of dimensions. (02:15:49) What's the tool set to to to engage in (02:15:52) this in the way that can help them start (02:15:54) to (02:15:56) like move forward one day at a time, one (02:15:59) step at a time in a way towards being (02:16:02) healthy, towards having agency, towards (02:16:04) like, okay, I'm on the road. I'm not off (02:16:08) on I'm not like dragged. I'm not like in (02:16:11) a ditch. I'm on the road. Maybe I'm not (02:16:13) going as fast as I want to, but I'm on (02:16:15) the road. What's your advice? (02:16:18) I I think it starts with the the locust (02:16:20) of control, right? Like what are the (02:16:22) things that we control that this this we (02:16:25) talked about this sort of victimology is (02:16:27) just not helping anyone. It's funny. I (02:16:30) think both things are true. The argument (02:16:32) that hey, just shut up. It's been worse. (02:16:35) You know, whatever is is not super (02:16:37) helpful. Um but the inverse is true, (02:16:39) too. like when this is the worst time in (02:16:41) the history of the world. This does not (02:16:44) your suffering does not have an (02:16:46) exclusive difference from problems and (02:16:49) suffering 100 years ago or 300 years (02:16:50) ago, a thousand years ago. So I I I I (02:16:55) think it really starts with looking at (02:16:58) yourself and and and what you can do. (02:17:00) And to me, this is literally the the (02:17:02) core of that. And stop worrying about (02:17:05) what the world owes you and everything (02:17:08) else or otherwise. Yes, there are good (02:17:10) breaks and bad breaks and a and a bunch (02:17:12) of things. But I kind of think if you if (02:17:15) you kind of put it on yourself to to (02:17:18) start the work or do the work and I (02:17:19) would say look if you don't want to read (02:17:20) the book you don't just answer those six (02:17:22) questions like see what kind of stuff um (02:17:26) comes up but um yeah I this is I'm a (02:17:30) self-reliance why core value right so (02:17:33) this is sort of inherently comes from me (02:17:35) but I think we need to to listen more we (02:17:38) got to focus on what we can do um and (02:17:40) we've got to stop feeling like e even if (02:17:43) things are hard that we're a victim of (02:17:45) something or someone owes us something (02:17:47) because I just I don't think that's (02:17:49) going to get us any progress. Um, and (02:17:52) and from the parent side, like we've got (02:17:55) to stop saving our kids from discomfort (02:17:59) and and we've got to have harder (02:18:01) conversations and have these valued (02:18:03) conversations. And you know, I I I I (02:18:06) think (02:18:08) this is Abigail Shrier, who I really (02:18:11) like her work, had a quote after the (02:18:13) Charlie Kirk thing a few weeks ago and (02:18:14) said, "It is exponentially harder to (02:18:17) transmit your values to your kids these (02:18:19) days because the external influences are (02:18:22) everywhere and prevailing." And so if (02:18:24) you thought you they say this rule of (02:18:26) seven in the workplace, if you thought (02:18:27) you said it once or twice, they probably (02:18:30) need to be like, "Dad or mom, like I (02:18:32) don't want to hear this ism like one (02:18:35) more time." Because to me, that's (02:18:36) inoculation around all the noise out (02:18:39) there and the people trying to tell them (02:18:42) stories and and get them in the online (02:18:44) or the teachers or and any of this (02:18:46) stuff. So I I I yeah, I think coming (02:18:48) back to a little bit these principles (02:18:51) and and there's just too much stuff, (02:18:53) right? It's overwhelming right now. So, (02:18:55) what are the few things that matter? (02:18:57) What are the few things that you can (02:18:59) hang, you know, your hat on? I just (02:19:01) think that's going to make you feel (02:19:03) better and have a little bit more (02:19:05) direction. (02:19:06) >> Um, I think that's really great advice. (02:19:08) Um, (02:19:11) my second to last question, (02:19:13) >> yeah, (02:19:14) >> is (02:19:15) is this so much of what you've we've (02:19:18) talked about is about looking inward. (02:19:20) It's about trying to understand (02:19:23) ourselves. (02:19:25) Um, one could argue, and I think there's (02:19:28) a there's a case for this, that one of (02:19:31) the pathologies of our time in the US in (02:19:34) particular is like the hangover of the (02:19:37) self-help movement. The me me (02:19:40) uh I mean like Abigail Strier, her book (02:19:43) bad therapy is that I like everyone (02:19:46) should read that book. Like if you are a (02:19:48) parent and you have a younger kid, like (02:19:50) it is a (02:19:51) >> it is a must-read book. (02:19:52) >> Yeah. So, we have this all of this (02:19:55) focus, all this cultural energy. U I (02:19:58) just saw Abigail at an event and and she (02:20:00) was talking about the like schools like (02:20:02) in Illinois that are now requiring these (02:20:04) like psych surveys that are basically (02:20:07) like self harm push polls. They're (02:20:09) absolutely (02:20:10) >> constantly asking people if they're (02:20:11) suicidal show where where there's not a (02:20:14) risk factor shows that people start to (02:20:16) be like, should I be thinking about (02:20:18) this? Like, (02:20:18) >> yeah, (02:20:19) >> right. you know, here is a list of (02:20:21) things that you should that maybe you (02:20:22) may have done to yourself. Like let's (02:20:24) but but it it speaks to this thing like (02:20:28) >> how do you how do you place your (02:20:30) thought, your advice, (02:20:33) your exercise here (02:20:35) in that broader context of a of a (02:20:38) country and a culture that has f that we (02:20:40) where we have encouraged maybe too much (02:20:43) focusing inward and not enough just like (02:20:45) hey go get a freaking job. (02:20:48) >> Yeah. and do the work for someone else (02:20:51) and uh set your ego aside because (02:20:55) there's going to be a lot of lessons (02:20:56) that go go into the adult life of that. (02:20:59) Well, I think there's there's I'm I (02:21:01) think I'm encouraging a different (02:21:02) version of the Mi story. I think the MI (02:21:04) one that Abigail talks about is this is (02:21:07) me and the world should orient around (02:21:10) me, right? That is that is not the (02:21:13) helpful narrative, right? versus this is (02:21:16) me and I because I understand myself, I (02:21:20) should think about where I want to (02:21:22) connect with and not connect with and (02:21:24) what would be the best fit for me. But I (02:21:27) am not I'm not looking for nor am (02:21:30) expecting the world to orient around me. (02:21:33) My favorite stories of that book was (02:21:34) when she talked about her grandmother, (02:21:36) right, who lost both their parents and (02:21:37) they died and had no one at 8 or 10. And (02:21:39) she's like, "My grandmother went on to (02:21:40) do all these amazing things because no (02:21:43) one changed the expectations for her. (02:21:45) When they put her in school, it was (02:21:46) you're supposed to do and she's like (02:21:48) today she would have been pulled out and (02:21:49) put in and they would have handicapped (02:21:51) her, you know, rather than keeping the (02:21:53) expectations high and then supporting (02:21:55) her." But I think I think I don't know (02:21:57) what you think, but I that that's how I (02:21:59) visualize the difference between those (02:22:00) two things, which is like and it doesn't (02:22:02) work because every everyone assumes that (02:22:04) the world orients around them and their (02:22:06) bubble and their problems and their (02:22:09) allergies. (02:22:11) You can't have any like common. I think (02:22:14) this is like look like what what is what (02:22:17) is true for me and how do I go out and (02:22:19) find uh uh the best way to to to make (02:22:23) that effective, right? is a is a way to (02:22:26) put that (02:22:27) understand the shape of your puzzle (02:22:29) piece so you know what what it looks (02:22:32) like when you see like oh man like that (02:22:34) that hole and that organization or that (02:22:36) opportunity man I just plug right into (02:22:38) that (02:22:39) >> right not hey here's my piece everyone (02:22:41) should build their puzzle around my (02:22:43) piece right I think that's the opposite (02:22:45) >> I think about in this way um (02:22:50) if I'm interviewing someone for a job (02:22:53) and all they can talk about is what they (02:22:55) want to get out of it. They will not be (02:22:56) hired (02:22:58) >> because that's not what jobs are. Jobs (02:22:59) are about what you're going to do for (02:23:00) me. I'm going to pay you money. (02:23:02) >> Yeah. (02:23:02) >> There's more exchange than just money (02:23:04) for services. (02:23:05) >> But if (02:23:06) >> how are you going to contribute to (02:23:06) what's important to us? (02:23:07) >> But if you're like don't care about what (02:23:09) we do, if you're not seeing this as a (02:23:11) chance to be a contributor, but you're (02:23:13) just like here's what I hope to get out (02:23:14) of it. Here's where I want to go. Here's (02:23:16) the things I love. (02:23:17) >> Go drive for Uber. You can be your own (02:23:19) boss, right? and and like that is um (02:23:22) that feels like the maybe part of the (02:23:25) puzzle that needs to be on the table and (02:23:27) that we need to I I I grew up I' I've (02:23:29) raised my son constantly saying the (02:23:32) world doesn't care about you. (02:23:33) >> I love that. I know it's it's (02:23:35) >> the world the world doesn't have a (02:23:37) brain. It doesn't have a heart. It I (02:23:39) mean we're Catholic. We believe I (02:23:41) believe that there's God and there's a (02:23:42) there's a love of the universe. But you (02:23:44) are not the center of the universe (02:23:45) >> and the material world is just the world (02:23:48) and you will come and go just as the sun (02:23:50) will eventually explode. So like that (02:23:52) like you're not the center of the world. (02:23:54) The world doesn't care about you. There (02:23:56) is no that's not a thing. (02:23:58) >> That's that's like I don't know what (02:24:00) that is but that's not reality. (02:24:03) >> I I hope it's made an impact. It it I (02:24:06) think it's helped him be a little stoic. (02:24:08) >> Yeah. But just maybe you can tip it a (02:24:10) little bit or impact it a little bit or (02:24:12) leave having left a a footprint that (02:24:16) that matters, right? (02:24:17) >> Oh yeah. (02:24:18) >> Yeah. (02:24:18) >> Um but it doesn't owe you anything. (02:24:21) >> If you look, it sounds tough, but again, (02:24:24) I love the respectful authenticity (02:24:25) stuff. If you start with that (02:24:27) orientation, (02:24:29) you know, this this this we are owed. (02:24:31) This did not work well in World War I (02:24:33) and the Germans and the grievance and we (02:24:35) are owed stuff like this is this is what (02:24:38) led to all of Hitler and all this stuff (02:24:40) by telling all these kids that they were (02:24:42) responsible for decisions that their (02:24:44) grandparents, you know, made. So we (02:24:46) we've screwed this up both way. We we we (02:24:49) need to acknowledge history and the (02:24:50) things that have gone on and be honest (02:24:52) about that. But like if your dad was a (02:24:54) great guy and you're a schmuck, like you (02:24:57) don't get credit for that. Similarly, if (02:24:59) your great-grandfather was a jerk and (02:25:01) you're a great guy and helps you, that's (02:25:02) not your problem. And so, this has been (02:25:04) a (02:25:05) >> this has been a huge disservice. It's (02:25:07) like, you have one life to live. No one (02:25:09) owes you anything. Go live it. (02:25:12) >> Uh I ask this of every guest, especially (02:25:14) on the first time on the show. Uh the (02:25:16) show is called Dad Saves America because (02:25:18) I do believe that's a role we play as (02:25:20) men. That's powerful. that makes a (02:25:22) impact first in your family but then in (02:25:25) the community and the country like the (02:25:26) country like the country's better. Yeah. (02:25:28) If we have dads taking that role (02:25:30) seriously. Um how do you think about (02:25:33) your role in the American story? (02:25:38) >> I (02:25:40) don't believe any of our solutions are (02:25:43) going to come from government or (02:25:45) politics. Like I I think when I think (02:25:48) about my experience um I'm trying to (02:25:50) help build better leaders may both in my (02:25:53) family and outside of my family because (02:25:55) that's had the biggest impact on me. And (02:25:56) so and I think there's some people that (02:25:58) may want to do it but they don't have (02:26:01) the tactics or they just haven't been (02:26:03) inspired. But I I I think great leaders (02:26:06) is what is going to drive you know the (02:26:09) American story and improvement in our (02:26:11) lives. I'm I'm I'm out on anyone in (02:26:13) government being the solution to (02:26:16) anything at this at this point. Um and (02:26:19) so I I think if we can uh uh America is (02:26:23) about creation. If we can create better (02:26:25) leaders and better companies, these (02:26:27) things happens in pockets, right? If you (02:26:29) actually follow like like some of these (02:26:32) great leaders, you go, "Oh, he was on (02:26:33) this person's team with all these (02:26:35) people." And I mean it has a (02:26:36) multi-generational impact. The inverse (02:26:39) is true, too. you know, these four (02:26:41) people are well traumatized by this (02:26:43) person and then went on to lead (02:26:45) horribly. So, um I that's that's kind of (02:26:48) what I'm focused on. I think that's (02:26:50) inherently American hopefully. (02:26:54) >> Rob Glazer, the compass within, thanks (02:26:58) for being on Dad Saves America. (02:26:59) >> Thanks for having me. (02:27:02) [Applause]