Joe Rogan Experience #2388 – Lionel Richie (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:02) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. (00:00:04) >> The Joe Rogan Experience. (00:00:06) >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by (00:00:08) night. All day. (00:00:13) >> How we doing? Good. (00:00:14) >> We're rolling. (00:00:15) >> Pleasure to meet you, sir. (00:00:16) >> It's about time. (00:00:18) >> Yes. Thank you very much for being here. (00:00:19) This is an honor. It (00:00:20) >> is. Same here, man. Same here. (00:00:22) >> How does a person like you (00:00:25) fit your life into a book? Because you (00:00:30) Your career is so wide and so long. (00:00:35) You've had so many experiences from the (00:00:38) Commodores in the ' 70s. (00:00:42) >> The 70s still rocking. (00:00:44) >> 70s. (00:00:45) >> 70s. (00:00:46) >> So Joe, let me tell you something. Uh it (00:00:49) it really accounts for I'll tell you the (00:00:52) joke of the book first. Okay. (00:00:53) >> Right. I'm probably the only guy in the (00:00:55) world that had a book had a book with (00:00:58) probably a thousand pages in it. I (00:01:00) turned a thousand pages in. They said, (00:01:03) "What the hell is this?" (00:01:05) >> And I said, "Wore in peace. (00:01:07) >> I've wore." And I said, "And I've got (00:01:09) some more stories." I got some more (00:01:11) stories. And so for the first time in (00:01:12) the history of Harper's probably, they (00:01:14) said, "Mr. Richie, no more stories. We (00:01:17) don't need any more stories. In fact, (00:01:18) can we take some of the stories out?" (00:01:20) >> Oh, no. So to answer your question, we (00:01:22) can't fit all of my life story in a (00:01:24) book, but we just had to find the ones (00:01:27) that were actually, you know, humorous (00:01:29) in certain cases, uh, educational in (00:01:32) certain cases cuz it's wide. It's it's (00:01:34) big and that and but I enjoyed the (00:01:36) process of kind of looking back because (00:01:40) if you understand me, I I have the (00:01:42) Italian race car drivers theory. What's (00:01:44) behind me doesn't count. It's what's in (00:01:46) front of me. (00:01:47) >> That's a very good way of looking at (00:01:49) life. So, so what this book made me do (00:01:52) was actually turn around and look behind (00:01:55) me. And I tell you what I discovered. I (00:01:58) I discovered Lionel Richie because up to (00:02:01) this point, I had never really gone into (00:02:03) the depths of how I got here. I just (00:02:07) remember cuz you want you want to (00:02:08) forget. (00:02:09) >> You just kept going. (00:02:10) >> Just kept going. Look, keep going (00:02:11) straight. You tripped over that. I don't (00:02:13) remember. You tripped over that. I don't (00:02:15) remember. What's next? (00:02:16) >> Yeah. Yeah, (00:02:17) >> you try to kind of, you know, it's like (00:02:18) playing football. You got hit really (00:02:21) badly on that last play, (00:02:23) >> but you go back to the huddle. (00:02:25) >> You know what I'm saying? (00:02:26) >> Are you hurt? You won't know until (00:02:27) tonight after you get off the field, and (00:02:29) they'll tell you you broke your arm. You (00:02:31) know what I'm saying? But it's it's (00:02:33) >> it's really don't stop moving forward. (00:02:37) And that's really what this whole thing (00:02:38) was. This exercise in this book was (00:02:40) really for me to actually go, hm, I I (00:02:43) can't believe I did that. Did you learn (00:02:45) anything about yourself from going back (00:02:47) and and just recalling all these stories (00:02:50) and putting them to paper? (00:02:52) >> Did I learn? Did I Did I learn? (00:02:53) Absolutely. It's if you had said to me (00:02:58) uh when I first started my life, you (00:03:00) know, my dad used to always have this (00:03:02) line over and over again. You know, uh (00:03:06) a great fighter is not determined by how (00:03:08) many punches he can throw. It's how many (00:03:11) punches he can take. (00:03:13) And I realized that I could take (00:03:16) punches. (00:03:18) Um, I'm the most unlikely person to take (00:03:21) a punch because I'm not that guy. Uh, if (00:03:24) I can talk my way out of it, I will. But (00:03:26) if you understand life itself, number (00:03:28) one, that's difficult. And then if you (00:03:31) start thinking about the music business, (00:03:33) the entertainment business, it's an (00:03:35) impossibility. You're going to get (00:03:37) punched every day of your life. And (00:03:38) what's that punch? No. No. No. No. (00:03:43) That's the punch. Now, can you get up (00:03:44) off the floor and come back? Can you get (00:03:46) a bad review and come back? Can they not (00:03:49) like you and you come back? Can you find (00:03:51) that that's a humorous thing instead of (00:03:52) a tragic thing? Can you come back? Can (00:03:55) you lose friends along the way? Can you (00:03:57) come back? So, you don't really realize, (00:04:01) you know, this is a business. If you (00:04:03) look at it, think about how many people (00:04:04) we've lost. (00:04:06) >> When I started writing this book, (00:04:08) >> I started thinking to myself, (00:04:10) where's Luther? M (00:04:12) >> where's Michael? I want to tell you more (00:04:15) stories about Prince, but it's not fair (00:04:18) because in certain cases I want him to (00:04:20) be here to laugh with the joke too, (00:04:21) >> right? (00:04:22) >> You follow me? (00:04:23) >> And so then you start realizing, (00:04:25) >> damn, this is lucky. This is really (00:04:27) blessed time now because (00:04:29) >> I'm in rare survival air, if you will. (00:04:32) I'm still here at at 200 years old (00:04:35) talking about my career, but I'm telling (00:04:37) the story. Someone else is not telling (00:04:39) it for me. That's important. That's (00:04:41) important, (00:04:42) >> right? Because so many times when (00:04:44) someone passes and then you get this (00:04:46) sort of cobbled together version of (00:04:48) their life without their own unique (00:04:50) personal perspective, you miss a lot. (00:04:53) >> You miss a lot. And especially things (00:04:56) that people thought were (00:04:59) terrifying or tragic. (00:05:03) If you talk to the person themselves, (00:05:05) that was a learning experience. So you (00:05:06) keep thinking, "Oh my god, what did you (00:05:08) do when that happened?" And you go, "No, (00:05:09) no, no, no, no. I needed that cuz I (00:05:12) wouldn't have been to the next person if (00:05:13) I had not experienced that because it's (00:05:17) it's like trying to go, you know, to (00:05:20) scrimmage before a big game. You're (00:05:21) you're with your team. Well, they hit (00:05:24) harder from the other team. So, you got (00:05:26) to practice hard. Well, the only way to (00:05:29) get into the music business, you got to (00:05:31) be on the field. Practice is not in the (00:05:35) equation, (00:05:36) >> right? (00:05:36) >> You got to get out on the field. And (00:05:38) it's nasty. And it's not designed for (00:05:41) you to survive. And I try to say this to (00:05:44) the kids on American Idol. I said, (00:05:45) "Listen, I love you. You got a great (00:05:48) personality, but you better hope like (00:05:50) hell you have a sense of humor. Cuz if (00:05:53) you don't, (00:05:55) it's going to eat you up alive." (00:05:57) >> Did you develop this mentality along the (00:06:01) way or was this something that you just (00:06:03) uniquely had? (00:06:05) >> Um, I This is my This is my character. I (00:06:07) I I if you understand something, I was (00:06:10) and I tell this joke all the time. I was (00:06:12) I was um too small to play football, too (00:06:15) short to play basketball. Um baseball (00:06:18) was a projectile coming at me at 300 (00:06:20) miles an hour. I'm not standing in front (00:06:21) of that thing. And the only thing I (00:06:23) could play was tennis. So, you (00:06:24) understand? And walking around on a (00:06:26) tennis court in the middle of the sim (00:06:28) civil rights movement, you know, it you (00:06:30) have to develop a sense of humor (00:06:32) otherwise you're going to die. And so so (00:06:35) I I found also again it's funny what (00:06:38) your father will say to you uh back and (00:06:42) you wonder how did he get through all of (00:06:44) his life cuz they went through the (00:06:45) struggle of life and he said if you lose (00:06:49) your sense of humor they got you (00:06:52) and I always remembered the fact that if (00:06:54) you can find something funny out of this (00:06:57) experience (00:06:59) take that haha to the next day. And so I (00:07:02) kind of use that as my mantra basically (00:07:06) that okay um where am I? I'm at the (00:07:10) Grammys. Okay, what am I complaining (00:07:12) about? I'm complaining about I don't (00:07:14) like my seat. What did they just say? I (00:07:18) won. Who cares? (00:07:22) >> You know what I'm saying? Or you're just (00:07:25) at the Grammys. You know how many people (00:07:26) don't get to come to the Grammys just on (00:07:29) the invitation. And so you have to go (00:07:33) back and look at this as far as is it (00:07:35) really that serious or you know you have (00:07:38) to kind of put things in perspective. (00:07:40) And so you know the first half of my (00:07:42) career was just a matter of (00:07:46) how do I get there? The second half of (00:07:49) my career is can I please try to enjoy a (00:07:51) little bit of it? And that's where I am (00:07:53) right now because you know it's the song (00:07:56) stuck around. (00:07:58) More importantly, I'm still here, which (00:08:01) is the blessing because (00:08:02) >> you're still here and you look great. (00:08:03) >> Well, I'll take that as a compliment. (00:08:05) >> You really do. You look very healthy. (00:08:06) >> Well, considering (00:08:07) >> my energy. (00:08:08) >> Looking at you across the table from me, (00:08:10) I think I left my muscles back in the (00:08:12) hotel room, but (00:08:14) but you know, it it's all about um two (00:08:18) and a half hour show a night for the (00:08:20) last 50 years. Um that's my uh that's my (00:08:24) golf game. (00:08:26) >> Training. training cuz you got to be (00:08:28) ready for two and a half hours and I (00:08:29) don't care what you think you're the (00:08:31) greatest guy in the world. I'll put you (00:08:33) on that stage and give you 50,000 people (00:08:36) and you after running with a night or (00:08:39) all night long sing a sing a slow song. (00:08:43) I dare you. (00:08:45) >> Yeah. And do it since 1970. Like what (00:08:48) was the Commodore 72? Did you guys (00:08:50) start? (00:08:50) >> Well, let me tell you. We started in ' (00:08:52) 68 (00:08:52) >> Wow. (00:08:53) >> On the on the university campus. we were (00:08:56) students. Uh it started out as a group (00:08:58) called the Mystics and we were the (00:09:01) talent show. We didn't realize that we (00:09:03) were the joke of the seniors of the (00:09:05) juniors, but they have a freshman talent (00:09:08) show every year and we wanted to be the (00:09:10) band to be the freshman talent show. We (00:09:13) came out on stage and killed it. And it (00:09:16) was a guy, another group there called (00:09:18) the Jays, which was the seniors. They (00:09:20) had been there for the last four years (00:09:22) and they were the biggest group on (00:09:24) campus. They were about to break up and (00:09:27) a guy named Michael Gilbert gave us a (00:09:30) phone call and said, "I want to put a (00:09:32) group together and I was looking at you (00:09:34) four guys. (00:09:36) Would you like to come and join this (00:09:37) band over here?" (00:09:40) The answer is that was the beginning of (00:09:41) the Commodores. (00:09:42) >> And how old were you at the time? (00:09:44) >> 19 years old. (00:09:45) >> Wow. (00:09:46) >> Thank you very much. (00:09:47) >> Wow. (00:09:48) >> 19 years old and we're going to take (00:09:50) over the world, Joe. You know what I (00:09:52) mean? other words, you know, there's the (00:09:55) there's James Brown, there's Marvin, and (00:09:58) there's the Commodores. You know, you (00:10:00) know how that works, you know. (00:10:02) >> And what I love about that period of (00:10:05) time, (00:10:06) we could be, you know, all right, all (00:10:10) wrong, but we were all together. (00:10:13) >> It didn't make any difference. So, we (00:10:14) experienced every possible imaginable (00:10:19) part of growing up together. I didn't (00:10:22) grow up with brothers. I had one sister. (00:10:23) So these became, forget the band. These (00:10:26) were five brothers. (00:10:28) And we were in every disaster you could (00:10:30) possibly think about. And we laughed our (00:10:33) way in and out of every Today we'd all (00:10:36) be in jail. You know what I mean? Right. (00:10:38) I can make that statement. I mean, but (00:10:41) back then it was ah it was the best. And (00:10:44) at 19 years of age, you're just starting (00:10:48) starting to become a man. And then (00:10:51) you're thrust into superstardom in a (00:10:54) crazy time in human history. It was (00:10:57) well, first of all, it we didn't really (00:10:59) get into recording until 7172. (00:11:05) We were just the biggest, largest, most (00:11:07) dynamic band in our heads (00:11:11) across the South. And until we were the (00:11:14) opening act for the Jackson 5, their (00:11:16) first tour that they went out on, we (00:11:19) were the opening act for them. That was (00:11:20) our first look at, holy crap, this is (00:11:24) this is huge. And then I'm I'm an (00:11:27) economics major, an accounting minor, (00:11:29) and all of a sudden, I kept thinking, I (00:11:32) don't know what this business is, but um (00:11:36) I think I want to be in it. (00:11:39) Because you have to understand (00:11:40) something. When you play tennis, (00:11:43) what's the number one thing you will (00:11:44) never hear ever? (00:11:47) A girl screaming. That's not going to (00:11:49) happen. Football, basketball, you hear (00:11:51) them all day long. I was going to be an (00:11:54) Episcopal priest thinking that's my (00:11:56) avenue. And I'm on stage one night at (00:12:00) the Jackson Show and all of a sudden (00:12:02) some girl said, "Sing it, baby." (00:12:05) And I said, called the minister back on (00:12:07) the phone. I said, "I don't think I'm (00:12:09) going to be priest material." (00:12:13) I just want you to understand, you know, (00:12:16) you you you have to know at that point. (00:12:19) >> You have to identify your lane. You (00:12:21) know, I had never heard that, Joe, in my (00:12:24) life. (00:12:24) >> Of course, who you know what I'm saying? (00:12:26) And (00:12:26) >> how many people ever get to hear it, (00:12:28) baby? (00:12:28) >> 20 21 years old, right? I got an (00:12:31) emotion. Thank you very much. And from (00:12:33) that point on, it was just a matter of (00:12:36) riding this wave of we finished that (00:12:39) Jackson tour. Um, we end up in Mottown, (00:12:44) Hollywood Bowl. They saw the Mottown saw (00:12:46) us there. Suzanne Deass was of course (00:12:49) the one who put the the Jacksons (00:12:51) together and all that. She knew us from (00:12:54) uh from our manager Cape Cod and (00:12:56) Martha's Vineyard Island. (00:12:59) Next thing we know, we're recording. (00:13:02) Wow. (00:13:02) >> Hallelujah. (00:13:04) >> And then you're off to the races. (00:13:06) >> We're off to the races. (00:13:09) Off to the races, Joe. And I tell you, (00:13:15) you know, looking at this book, (00:13:17) it's a question. I survived or how I (00:13:23) survived. (00:13:25) But the question to me was I survived (00:13:29) >> because it it's not it's I mean I can (00:13:33) tell you stories and it well they're in (00:13:35) the book but I'm just saying there are (00:13:36) moments when you just look around and go (00:13:38) thank God for just being naive young (00:13:41) stupid didn't have any idea of what the (00:13:44) heck you were doing but what a great (00:13:46) adventure. I'm in a subway 4:00 in the (00:13:50) morning. My saxophone (00:13:53) and I had this little secret thing that (00:13:55) no one knew. I had this seat (00:13:59) >> sheath seath (00:14:01) >> sheath around my neck. Didn't know it (00:14:04) had a secret compartment. Of course, (00:14:05) everybody in Harlem knew it was a secret (00:14:07) compartment. I had all my money in that. (00:14:09) I'm walking around going, "No one knows (00:14:11) I have my money in there, right?" Which (00:14:13) is everybody knew I had my money there. (00:14:15) I would walk up and down the subway. No (00:14:18) one would touch us. No one. I don't (00:14:21) know. It has to be a sense of divine (00:14:24) guidance (00:14:26) or big Frank Lucas just told everybody, (00:14:28) "Don't touch us." One or the other. But (00:14:30) I mean, it was just one of those moments (00:14:32) in time where, you know, I've had some (00:14:35) people say to me, "You were in Harlem at (00:14:37) 4:00 in the morning in the subway (00:14:40) alone." I said, "Yeah." (00:14:42) >> With a saxophone. (00:14:43) >> With a saxophone. God bless you, kid. (00:14:46) Wow. (00:14:46) >> God bless you. (00:14:49) It's It must seem almost surreal looking (00:14:52) back because you've had such an (00:14:55) incredible life, such an incredible (00:14:58) career. It almost I mean, I can't (00:14:59) imagine what it feels like just (00:15:02) reminiscing and going through the (00:15:04) stories and and just just looking at the (00:15:06) actual facts of what you did. (00:15:10) I'm glad I'm doing the book now because (00:15:14) otherwise I would be um let's say when I (00:15:19) got to about 98 99 cuz I'm planning on a (00:15:21) full life, right? (00:15:24) There's an old man at the barber shop (00:15:25) still telling lies about his life when (00:15:27) he was growing up, you know, because (00:15:29) they it has to be a lie, you know? And (00:15:31) and you know, (00:15:34) and there was one title I was joking (00:15:36) around with, which is you're not going (00:15:38) to believe this [ __ ] (00:15:39) That would be a great title. (00:15:40) >> That would be the title, you know, and I (00:15:42) was thinking that might be the way to (00:15:43) go. Then, of course, I kept thinking, (00:15:45) no, but from a philosophical point of (00:15:46) view, that's not going to fly, right? (00:15:48) Okay, we'll pull that back. But the (00:15:50) point is, it's almost not believable. (00:15:53) >> I mean, when you start (00:15:56) calling off names, it's almost like name (00:15:59) dropping. And you start thinking about (00:16:02) who mentored you, who gave you the (00:16:05) advice, who was there for you exactly at (00:16:08) the right time, who came in, who left, (00:16:11) right on time. You know what I'm saying? (00:16:13) There are moments that happen that if I (00:16:16) tried to script this thing, if I tried (00:16:18) to put it down as a complete play, (00:16:22) chapter by chapter, you know, act by (00:16:25) act, you couldn't make this up. I mean, (00:16:27) it just it reads like a like a book (00:16:31) >> or like a crazy movie. Like if your life (00:16:33) was a movie, I'd be like, (00:16:35) >> "Yeah, (00:16:35) >> that seems a little unrealistic." Yeah. (00:16:37) >> Too many good things happening that way. (00:16:38) >> Yeah. Yeah. But Yeah. Yeah. To the point (00:16:41) where somebody says I remember a couple (00:16:44) of my uh friends uh (00:16:48) um Oh, why am I drawing a blank? Um Rick (00:16:51) James, Rick James had a great line for (00:16:53) me. Every time he saw me, I said, "Rick, (00:16:55) how you doing? I hate you. (00:16:59) And that's means I love you, but I hate (00:17:02) you. I I hate you, man. And of course, I (00:17:05) get it, you know, because (00:17:07) things along the way become almost (00:17:13) charmed, (00:17:14) >> right? (00:17:14) >> You know, it's like, okay. Um, did I go (00:17:18) out and call Dick Clark and say I wanted (00:17:20) to host the American Music Awards? No. (00:17:24) No. He called me and said, "Lionel, (00:17:28) forget that guy in New York. Forget that (00:17:29) guy in New York. You're doing it. You're (00:17:32) doing it. I mean, forget that guy." And (00:17:33) now, whoever that that guy was, the gift (00:17:36) was handed to me. And now I spent the (00:17:40) next two or three weeks trying to (00:17:42) convince Mr. Clark (00:17:45) that I don't have any training in how to (00:17:48) be a host. (00:17:50) And that's when he would come to me and (00:17:51) say, "Ah, you school boys are all the (00:17:54) all the same. You think you need a (00:17:55) diploma before you think you know (00:17:57) something." You know, these lines that (00:18:00) come out of (00:18:01) >> this whole story, you know, that's not (00:18:04) orchestrated. That's not scripted. It (00:18:07) came from the other side back this way. (00:18:09) >> Yeah. Do you feel charmed? (00:18:12) >> Yes. (00:18:12) >> Yeah. Do you feel like whatever reason? (00:18:14) >> The word I'll use is blessed. Um um (00:18:19) it's one of those things where uh my (00:18:22) grandmother said something to me a while (00:18:24) a while back. I just finished um I just (00:18:28) finished Endless Love and uh I went back (00:18:31) to Tuskegee and I'm walking around in (00:18:34) the house pacing back and forth and she (00:18:36) says, "What on earth are you doing?" And (00:18:39) I said, "I'm trying to figure out my (00:18:41) next move." (00:18:42) And she said, "Did you come to school to (00:18:46) uh join the Commodore?" She said, "No, (00:18:48) no. I I I I met them. I met them on the (00:18:50) campus." She said, "Did you plan on (00:18:52) being a writer?" No, no, no, no. I found (00:18:54) out I was a writer. She said, "Did you (00:18:56) plan on being a lead singer?" I said, (00:18:58) "No, no, no, no. I I found out when I (00:18:59) joined the group that she said, "Why (00:19:01) don't you just get a good night's sleep (00:19:03) and wait for God to give you the next (00:19:05) >> Wow." (00:19:07) >> And that's how I started my career. (00:19:10) That's an incredible woman, you know. (00:19:12) >> That's incredible perspective. (00:19:14) >> Quit trying to figure this out. Did you (00:19:15) figure it out before? No. Then just (00:19:18) relax. (00:19:20) >> Chill out. Can you read and write music? (00:19:22) No. Okay. Just (00:19:25) chill out. That's so hard to tell a (00:19:27) young person though and have them absorb (00:19:28) it cuz especially someone going through (00:19:31) what you're going through. (00:19:32) >> This episode is brought to you by Happy (00:19:34) Dad Hard Seltzer. Most hard beverages (00:19:37) overcomplicate everything. Happy Dad (00:19:39) keeps it simple. Low carbonation, (00:19:42) gluten-free, and only 100 calories in (00:19:44) every can. Barbecues, golf rounds, (00:19:47) hanging by the pool, chilling after (00:19:49) work. Happy Dad is perfect for whatever (00:19:52) you're up to. Everyone is drinking all (00:19:54) these skinny cans loaded with sugar. But (00:19:56) Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in (00:20:00) a normal can. You can grab a variety (00:20:03) pack featuring lemon, lime, watermelon, (00:20:06) pineapple, and wild cherry. And don't (00:20:08) sleep on the grape collab with Death Row (00:20:11) Records. It's a fan favorite for a (00:20:13) reason. Happy Dad is now available (00:20:16) nationwide in the USA and Canada. Go to (00:20:19) your local liquor store or visit (00:20:21) happydad.com. (00:20:23) For a limited time, use the code Rogan (00:20:25) to buy one Happy Dad Trucker hat and get (00:20:28) one free. Enjoy a cold Happy Dad. Must (00:20:32) be 21 plus. Please drink responsibly. (00:20:35) Happy Dad. Hard seltzer NT malt alcohol (00:20:39) Orange County California. (00:20:41) >> Yeah, it's um um I try to tell the kids (00:20:46) on American Idol, you know, sometimes (00:20:48) you have to look at failure as a great (00:20:52) sign. (00:20:54) Uh if they had told the Commodores on (00:20:56) the first time we auditioned, you got (00:20:58) it, ready to go. The answer is we (00:21:02) weren't ready to go. It took no and no (00:21:05) and no. And we at signing at Atlantic. (00:21:08) No. Signing at Philly International. No. (00:21:13) But we're the greatest band ever. You're (00:21:15) right. What did uh they say to us? Um (00:21:19) you sound just like the Temptations. You (00:21:22) sound just like Sly the Family Stone. (00:21:25) What do you sound like? (00:21:28) Wow. (00:21:30) What do we sound like? I don't know. M. (00:21:33) So the only way we have to find out is (00:21:34) we have to start not imitating somebody (00:21:38) else. Now comes the thing of well but (00:21:40) what do we sound like (00:21:42) >> right? (00:21:42) >> And I didn't know I didn't know how to (00:21:45) write. So I How do you write? You follow (00:21:49) me? And then you get to Mottown. I'm (00:21:51) signed to Mottown. (00:21:55) I don't know how to read or write music. (00:21:56) What the hell am I doing here with this (00:21:58) this band? I'm not the lead singer. I (00:22:00) sing some cover songs and then you walk (00:22:03) down the hall and there's Marvin. So I (00:22:05) decided I'm going to interview Marvin. (00:22:08) Uh, excuse me, Marvin. Uh, what music (00:22:10) conservatory did you graduate from? And (00:22:13) he said, "What the hell is that?" (00:22:17) I said, "Oh, I mean, how do you write (00:22:18) your music?" He said, "No, no, no, (00:22:20) brother. Can you hum?" Yeah. He says, (00:22:22) "All that you can't play with three (00:22:24) fingers, (00:22:26) hum it into a tape recorder." (00:22:28) And then you go down the hall again and (00:22:31) Smokey and there's Barry Gordy who built (00:22:33) Mottown. Uh, excuse me, Mr. Gordy. What (00:22:36) uh what university did you graduate (00:22:38) from? He said, "I'm at I was at a car (00:22:40) plant." What are you talking about? (00:22:43) Everything that I grew up with on the (00:22:45) campus of Tuskegee as a kid. I grew up (00:22:48) on the university campus. That's (00:22:50) academia. (00:22:52) Did not apply in the world of hustle. (00:22:56) >> You understand? (00:22:56) >> Yeah. So I'm now meeting the guys and (00:23:00) ladies who found their hustle. (00:23:02) >> They had a PhD in hustle. (00:23:04) >> They had a PhD in hustle. And I am (00:23:07) telling you, Joe, from that moment on, I (00:23:11) was let out of the box. Somebody let me (00:23:13) out of the cage. Because in academia, (00:23:16) there's a logical reason why you know (00:23:19) what you know because you studied it, (00:23:22) >> right? (00:23:23) >> But I was that kid that was sitting in (00:23:25) the class going (00:23:30) Mr. Richie, Mr. Richie, (00:23:33) would you like to join the rest of the (00:23:35) class? (00:23:36) >> I was daydreaming, (00:23:37) >> right? (00:23:38) >> I found at Mottown the whole damn (00:23:40) company was tapping on the table. (00:23:43) >> Ah, (00:23:43) >> I found out in New York City, whole town (00:23:46) is tapping on the table and dancing, (00:23:48) right? And so from that point on, I (00:23:51) joined this creative (00:23:54) source force fraternity sorority of (00:23:59) crazy out of control people that gave me (00:24:02) permission to dare to listen to myself. (00:24:06) That must have been so exciting to learn (00:24:08) that that the structure that you learned (00:24:10) in academia like no these wizards these (00:24:13) wizards of music these masters of giving (00:24:17) people emotion and power and energy (00:24:20) >> right I mean I I I get chills sitting (00:24:23) talking to you watching Marvin (00:24:26) record and you keep thinking he walked (00:24:28) in with a paper and he he had written (00:24:30) these lyrics. No man, he is scatting at (00:24:34) the microphone. (00:24:35) >> Really? (00:24:36) >> Oh, say the B. You know, and I'm (00:24:39) thinking to myself, what am I watching? (00:24:42) >> Wow. (00:24:42) >> And then he said, bring the microphone (00:24:44) over to the couch. He's on the couch (00:24:47) singing in the couch in the control (00:24:49) room. What? What's When am I watching? (00:24:52) What's What's happening? In other words, (00:24:56) it was just so organic and so, you know, (00:25:00) because you think about the orchestra (00:25:01) and they're there and the No, man. This (00:25:04) is (00:25:06) inside of a wonderful dream of watching (00:25:10) creativity just explode with no (00:25:14) no doors, no windows, no walls. (00:25:17) >> And he was making this up in real time. (00:25:21) >> Wow. Oh. (00:25:22) >> Uh, you're talking about freestyle. My (00:25:24) man was freestyling, coming up with some (00:25:26) of the greatest lyrics ever on life's (00:25:28) planet. And I kept thinking, "Okay, so (00:25:30) let me go back and put that in my little (00:25:32) hamper." (00:25:33) >> So, was did he have an idea of where he (00:25:37) was going with these songs? (00:25:39) >> I think he had a feeling about the idea, (00:25:43) but did he know the exact words? (00:25:46) >> You know, it's like when you close your (00:25:47) eyes and you're in it. (00:25:49) >> Yeah. Yeah. (00:25:50) >> But see, I didn't understand how to be (00:25:52) in it, you know. I I kept thinking, (00:25:55) well, let me put it this way. I was (00:25:57) trying to think. (00:25:59) >> So, you because of the academic (00:26:00) background. (00:26:01) >> Yeah. You're trying to logically (00:26:04) there's a logical reason why you're (00:26:06) about to say what you're going to say, (00:26:08) >> right? (00:26:08) >> Instead of just saying, "Okay, just turn (00:26:11) on the mic." (00:26:13) >> Yeah. (00:26:13) >> You know what I'm saying? Just turn on (00:26:15) the mic, man. I got it. You know, to (00:26:17) this day, I I have a thing that I do (00:26:19) that still wears out my management and (00:26:23) um I have to do a speech or something (00:26:25) and they say, "Okay, uh can you give me (00:26:27) the speech so we can put it on the (00:26:28) teleprompter?" And I said, "I I I don't (00:26:31) have a speech to give you." Lionel, we (00:26:35) need the speech to put on the (00:26:37) teleprompter so you'll know what to say. (00:26:40) I I I I don't know what I'm going to (00:26:42) say. What do you mean you don't know (00:26:44) what to say? I said, "No, I won't know (00:26:45) what I'm going to say until I get (00:26:47) there." (00:26:49) And I walk out on stage. I said, "Now, (00:26:51) how long do you want the speech?" They (00:26:52) said, "Could we have five minutes? I'll (00:26:54) give you five minutes worth of speech." (00:26:56) They just have to trust you. (00:26:59) >> Wow. (00:26:59) >> That's how I do it. (00:27:01) >> And you learn from watching the greats. (00:27:04) >> The great. And that that must have been (00:27:06) such an unique shift in perspective and (00:27:10) how you view the world and how you (00:27:12) approach things to see people to know (00:27:14) that you're daydreaming was actually (00:27:16) just talent trying to burst free. (00:27:19) >> Exactly. (00:27:20) >> And they knew how to just take that (00:27:22) talent and just be unharnessed. (00:27:25) >> It was to the point where (00:27:29) I was actually trained. You know this is (00:27:33) grandma Foster am Foster. (00:27:37) She quoted my grandfather (00:27:39) in Booker T. Washington's house. (00:27:42) That's where she came from. Tuskegee. (00:27:46) My grandfather. They knew Booker T. She (00:27:49) knew George Washington Carver. (00:27:51) >> In my home in Tuskegee, Alabama, there's (00:27:55) a crocheted piece from Mr. Carver. Dr. (00:27:59) Carver. My dear Mrs. Foster, (00:28:01) congratulations on your wedding. (00:28:03) >> Wow. (00:28:04) >> That's a crocheted piece. The the deed (00:28:07) to my house has the Washington family's (00:28:10) name on the deed to my house. It was (00:28:12) given to me and not to me, to my (00:28:15) grandmother and grandfather, by the (00:28:17) Washington family, Booker T. So now when (00:28:21) you have all of that background, it's (00:28:23) kind of one of those things where do you (00:28:24) go with this thing, you know? (00:28:26) >> Right. And so, you know, my my (00:28:29) upbringing was pretty pretty amazing (00:28:32) where it had structure. Had structure. (00:28:35) And now here I am over in this other (00:28:38) side where (00:28:40) Wait a minute. You mean I don't have to (00:28:42) remember anything. I can make up (00:28:44) something. (00:28:46) >> Whoa. (00:28:47) >> And allow the universe to just give you (00:28:49) >> Whoa. Well, yeah. I can just (00:28:53) make up something. (00:28:55) But what do you want to make up? I don't (00:28:57) know. So then it's a word that we (00:29:00) learned called receiving. (00:29:03) >> I'm just receiving. So now where does (00:29:05) receiving come from? (00:29:07) >> Yeah. (00:29:07) >> Receiving comes from the silence. (00:29:11) It's not the noise. It's in the silence. (00:29:15) >> Right. (00:29:16) >> So here I am between (00:29:18) 1 and 6 in the morning (00:29:21) and everyone thinks (00:29:23) what's Lionel doing? He's just kind of (00:29:25) sitting in there. (00:29:27) What's he doing? Nothing. (00:29:30) But let me hear Let me let you in on a (00:29:32) little sound that's terrifying to most (00:29:35) people. You ready for this? (00:29:40) You hear that, Joe? (00:29:41) >> Silence. All right. Now, if you can hear (00:29:51) out of the silence (00:29:53) comes the you're receiving that from the (00:29:56) other side. (00:29:57) >> It is a receiving, isn't it? (00:29:59) >> Yeah. When you, you know, sometimes you (00:30:02) just have to just blank it out. Some (00:30:05) people call it meditation. (00:30:07) >> Some people have all kind of names for (00:30:08) it. I just love to listen to silence. By (00:30:12) the way, there's only 12 notes, Joe. (00:30:14) It's not 145 notes. It's only 12 notes. (00:30:18) So everything that has ever happened (00:30:20) that you've ever heard on any radio, (00:30:23) it's only 12 notes. So how do you turn (00:30:26) 12 notes into something that sounds new, (00:30:29) different? (00:30:31) That's amazing to me. (00:30:32) >> Yeah, it is amazing. And so in the (00:30:34) silence and all you have to do is learn (00:30:36) how to figure out what are the four (00:30:39) chords because if you got four or five (00:30:42) chords you can write a whole album (00:30:45) but it's the melody that goes on top (00:30:46) that you have to be able to hear. And so (00:30:49) once I learned that (00:30:53) Marvin and Smokey and you know Michael (00:30:57) Quincy and you know these are Hendricks. (00:31:00) I just saw the poster coming in. You (00:31:02) know, they all made careers. Not only (00:31:04) careers, they had their unique sound out (00:31:08) of 12 notes. (00:31:10) >> Think about that. (00:31:12) >> Now, if you think it's hard enough to (00:31:14) get a hit record, how do you become (00:31:16) unique unto yourself, right, (00:31:18) >> with those 12 notes? (00:31:20) >> That is one of the geniuses of Hrix is (00:31:22) that you could tell Hrix with like in 3 (00:31:26) seconds. (00:31:26) >> He didn't have to come in singing. No. (00:31:28) No. You just heard a little bit of (00:31:29) guitar and he knew. (00:31:31) >> Yeah. (00:31:32) >> Yeah. (00:31:36) >> You can hum it. You can. Yeah. Right. (00:31:38) >> Six was nine. That's Hrix. Like there's (00:31:40) a sound that he was able to make. (00:31:43) >> And there's very few people that figure (00:31:44) out how to do that. (00:31:46) >> I did I did not understand that. (00:31:48) >> Um the blessing was not in having a hit (00:31:52) record. (00:31:53) >> The blessing was in having unique sound. (00:31:56) >> Okay. Stevie sounds like Stevie. Smokey (00:31:58) sounds like Smokey. You know what I'm (00:31:59) saying? (00:32:00) >> And so when you start thinking about, (00:32:03) okay, now, by the way, you can't (00:32:05) rehearse that. (00:32:06) >> That's either your gift (00:32:08) >> or you you can't say, well, I'm going to (00:32:10) work on my sound. (00:32:13) No, it's it's a real thing. That's why (00:32:15) when we do we are um when we do American (00:32:18) Idol, I tell them over and over again, (00:32:20) I'm not looking for singers. I'm looking (00:32:22) for stylist. (00:32:24) What's going to make me close my eyes (00:32:25) and remember you? I don't want to see (00:32:28) you. Can I identify you by your voice? (00:32:31) That's a career. (00:32:37) Do you have conversations with people (00:32:39) that don't know how to receive? And do (00:32:42) you try to like when you're talking to a (00:32:44) young artist and maybe they're a little (00:32:46) bit too technical or maybe they're a (00:32:49) little bit too constrained, (00:32:51) >> do you have conversations with them (00:32:53) about what do you say to them? (00:32:55) >> Yeah, I do. Um, and I could see their (00:32:58) frustration, you know. Um, Lionel, I (00:33:02) can't believe it's amazing how you went (00:33:05) to that augmented seventh with a (00:33:06) diminished nine with a raised 18th with (00:33:09) a 45. And I'm sitting there going, I (00:33:11) can't read music. And he goes, and the (00:33:13) way you did that modulation from (00:33:16) And I said, I can't read music. And he (00:33:18) kept saying, and the way you turned that (00:33:20) vocal around, it came back down to that (00:33:22) augmented seventh over raised ninth. And (00:33:25) I kept saying, I can't read music. (00:33:27) >> Wow. (00:33:27) >> So I tried to tell them, listen, (00:33:31) forget the notes. (00:33:33) Can the crowd sing your song? (00:33:36) M (00:33:37) >> if they can't sing you a song, dazzling (00:33:40) them with notes is not going to get it. (00:33:43) That's the first thing. That's for the (00:33:45) guys who can read and write and do the (00:33:48) full Giuliard and Berkeley and Killer. (00:33:50) That's for them. Now for the kids who (00:33:54) are just brilliant by the way and they (00:33:56) know their music (00:33:58) but they don't know how to receive (00:34:01) my answer now is now that you know the (00:34:03) technical forget it (00:34:07) now tell me what you're feeling (00:34:11) now play that (00:34:13) >> and instead of playing 15 chords (00:34:18) play one and hum as much as you can (00:34:20) holding in that one chord. (00:34:23) And then when you get tired of putting (00:34:25) everything in that one chord, that's the (00:34:27) second chord coming up. (00:34:30) You follow me? (00:34:31) >> Yeah. (00:34:31) >> Because what happens as musicians, they (00:34:33) want to go, we are the (00:34:36) >> No, no, no. Stop playing. Bang. We are (00:34:40) the world. Bang. We are. Just keep (00:34:43) holding that go. Bang. We are the ones (00:34:45) that make a brighter day. Let's not get (00:34:47) bang. There's a bang. (00:34:51) >> Yeah. (00:34:51) >> Now you change. (00:34:52) >> Yeah. (00:34:53) >> You follow me? (00:34:53) >> Yeah. (00:34:54) >> Because if you confuse me and you dazzle (00:34:56) the world with all of your musicianship, (00:34:58) you just miss the melody that the whole (00:35:00) world can sing. (00:35:03) >> You miss the purity. (00:35:04) >> You miss the purity. (00:35:06) >> Yeah. In the octagon, it only takes one (00:35:09) second to change everything. One punch, (00:35:11) one choke, one shock no one saw coming. (00:35:14) And at UFC 320, DraftKings Sportsbook, (00:35:17) the official sports betting partner of (00:35:19) the UFC, puts you right in the middle of (00:35:21) the action. Ankalia versus Pereira 2 (00:35:24) headlines a stacked night of fights. New (00:35:27) customers, this one is for you. Bet just (00:35:30) $5. And if your bet wins, you'll get (00:35:32) paid out in $200 instantly. Download the (00:35:36) DraftK Sportsbook app and use the code (00:35:38) Rogan. That's code Rogan to turn five (00:35:41) bucks into 200 in bonus bets. If your (00:35:44) bet wins in partnership with DraftKings, (00:35:47) the crown is yours. (00:35:48) >> Gambling problem? Call 1800 gambler. In (00:35:51) New York, call 8778 hope and wire or (00:35:53) text hope and y467-369. (00:35:56) In Connecticut, help is available for (00:35:57) problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 (00:36:01) or visit ccpg.org. Please play (00:36:03) responsibly. On behalf of Bootill Casino (00:36:05) and Resort in Kansas, fees may apply in (00:36:07) Illinois. 21 and over. Age and (00:36:09) eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void (00:36:11) in Ontario. Bet must win to receive (00:36:12) reward. Minimum minus 500 odds required. (00:36:15) Bonus bets expire 7 days after issuance. (00:36:17) For additional terms and responsible (00:36:19) gaming resources, see dk&ng.co/audio. (00:36:23) >> Wow. Did do they get it when you try to (00:36:27) tell it to you or is it one of those (00:36:28) things like you're going to have to live (00:36:30) more? (00:36:30) >> You're gonna have to live more. Yeah. (00:36:31) It's because remember now when Marvin (00:36:34) said to me, he was giving me the words (00:36:36) of wisdom when (00:36:38) when um Norman Whitfield who wrote (00:36:42) Cloud9 and all these you know just (00:36:45) amazing temptation songs (00:36:51) Cloud9 be what you want to be. You can (00:36:55) you don't need no responsibility. (00:36:59) Everybody come in now. (00:37:02) He's playing He's playing one note. (00:37:04) >> Wow. (00:37:04) >> Okay. They hadn't changed yet. He wrote (00:37:07) the whole first verse. Okay. Ball of (00:37:10) confusion. (00:37:12) He's still on one note. (00:37:13) >> Wow. (00:37:13) >> Okay. It takes time to understand what (00:37:16) that master just told you, (00:37:19) >> right? (00:37:19) >> You follow me? (00:37:20) >> Yeah. (00:37:20) >> And then once you understand the (00:37:22) simplicity (00:37:24) is the secret. (00:37:28) M (00:37:28) >> the simplicity is the secret. (00:37:30) >> It's like when you go to a restaurant (00:37:32) and they put too much sauce on the (00:37:33) steak. (00:37:34) >> I couldn't have given you a better (00:37:35) answer. You didn't have to do that. Just (00:37:37) just give me some chicken. (00:37:38) >> Yeah. (00:37:39) >> Give me fried chicken. I mean, give me (00:37:41) baked chicken. Give me smothered (00:37:42) chicken. Don't don't don't get too (00:37:44) crazy, (00:37:45) >> right? And at the end, just give me an (00:37:46) apple pie. (00:37:48) >> Give me just give me key lime pie. Just (00:37:50) just (00:37:51) >> you know what I'm saying? Give me a (00:37:53) lemon mering. Give me pumpkin pie. (00:37:54) >> You don't have to get crazy. don't get (00:37:56) we have a deconstructed (00:37:58) >> Yeah. (00:37:58) >> and I go just put it together. Put the (00:38:00) whole thing together and give it to me. (00:38:01) You know, that's (00:38:02) >> because that that's sometimes with some (00:38:04) music. Well, that's one of the things (00:38:05) you can't connect to. It's like it's (00:38:07) over complicated and you hear some music (00:38:09) and it's like, God, there's so much (00:38:10) going on and then you hear some acoustic (00:38:13) version of a song, you're like, "Oh my (00:38:15) god." (00:38:16) >> That's it. (00:38:16) >> Oh my god. Yeah. You just you hear the (00:38:18) the the pick scratching across the (00:38:21) strings like, "Oh my god." (00:38:23) >> Yeah. Mr. Mr. Gordy. I I I've I've known (00:38:27) him enough now where I can say Barry, (00:38:29) but he's clearly Mr. Gordy, you know, (00:38:32) >> clearly (00:38:32) >> he taught me the greatest line ever. Um (00:38:36) I went to him and I met him in the (00:38:38) hallway and he would never ever (00:38:42) say, "Oh, congratulations. You got a hit (00:38:44) record." That's not what he would say. (00:38:46) He'd always say, "Ah, (00:38:48) Marvin's got a hit. Marin's got a smash (00:38:51) coming out." I go, "Mr. Gord, I just (00:38:53) want to let you know I have a number one (00:38:54) record. That's that's nice. Marvin's got (00:38:56) one coming out. It's going to be a (00:38:57) smash. (00:39:00) And then what do you have next? (00:39:04) What do you have next? And then I said, (00:39:06) "Okay, well, I got a hit record." He (00:39:08) says, "Um," I said, "Let me go out to (00:39:10) the car and get a tape. I want want you (00:39:11) to hear it." No, no, no. You got a hit (00:39:13) record. Hum it to me. Wow. Hum it to me. (00:39:18) If you need to play music, you got a (00:39:21) nice tune. (00:39:25) There's your tempo. (00:39:28) Now, hum it to me. (00:39:29) >> Wow. (00:39:30) >> Now, that means the the crowd is going (00:39:32) to sing along every note with you. You (00:39:34) don't have to wait to the hook. (00:39:35) >> They'll sing the verse with you. (00:39:38) >> What is that pressure like? (00:39:41) >> I would love to tell you, was it (00:39:42) pressure? (00:39:43) >> No. (00:39:44) >> No. I would tell you that there's an old (00:39:46) expression (00:39:49) um that a jazz musician said to me years (00:39:52) ago. You either understand or you don't. (00:39:56) >> You can either hear it, (00:39:58) >> right? (00:39:59) >> Or you don't. That's all it is. In other (00:40:01) words, if and and my line is (00:40:05) >> if you can hear me tapping on the table (00:40:09) >> and all you hear is me tapping on the (00:40:12) table, (00:40:14) you're not a songwriter. (00:40:15) >> Ah, (00:40:16) >> but if you hear me tap on the table (00:40:18) >> and you start (00:40:19) >> and you hear a song, (00:40:21) >> yeah, (00:40:22) >> you're a songwriter. (00:40:24) Class dismissed, (00:40:26) >> right? (00:40:27) >> We don't have to waste any more time. It (00:40:29) is a bizarre thing that creativity which (00:40:31) is one of the most important things in (00:40:32) our society cannot be taught. (00:40:33) >> No. No. I mean I mean (00:40:36) >> you meet brand new person every day. I (00:40:40) meet crowds of people. You meet (00:40:42) one-on-one people every day. (00:40:46) That's difficult. That's difficult. And (00:40:48) to know something about them and wanting (00:40:51) to find out more and how does your (00:40:54) personality work with that other person? (00:40:56) That's a skill. But that's not even a (00:40:58) skill. That's not something you (00:40:59) practice. That's something you had in (00:41:01) you from way down deep. It's just the (00:41:04) more you do it, you got better and (00:41:05) better at being (00:41:07) >> that person. (00:41:08) >> That's exactly correct. (00:41:09) >> You follow me? Yeah. (00:41:10) >> So, if I said to you right now, how did (00:41:11) you study that, Joe? You go, just (00:41:14) >> turn on turn on the mic. (00:41:16) >> Well, I would tell you I got I just got (00:41:17) very fortunate that a job existed that (00:41:21) didn't exist before, which is (00:41:22) podcasting, where you get to talk to (00:41:24) interesting people. (00:41:24) >> There you go. And luckily for me, I I (00:41:28) don't have anybody telling me who to (00:41:29) have on. So I just go through I have (00:41:32) like a line of emails every day and I'm (00:41:34) like, "Ooh, Lionel Rich. [ __ ] yeah." I (00:41:37) said, "Fuck yeah, that one." (00:41:39) >> I put down I put down, "Fuck yeah, Lion (00:41:41) Rich." (00:41:42) >> But there's a bunch like that. Like, (00:41:43) "Oo, I'd like to talk to him." But (00:41:45) there's some guy who's an astronomer. Oh (00:41:46) yeah, bring him on. I'm going to see (00:41:48) some of his stuff. Then I'll go watch (00:41:49) some videos, listen to him give (00:41:50) lectures. I'm like, "All right." Yeah. (00:41:52) >> But to me, it's just I'm just very (00:41:53) fortunate that this is just how my (00:41:55) personality is. I'm just curious about (00:41:56) how people think. (00:41:58) >> Well, you I mean, again, it's one of (00:42:00) those things out of your natural (00:42:02) curiosity, (00:42:04) that's you. (00:42:05) >> Yeah. (00:42:05) >> You follow me? Well, out of my (00:42:09) natural ADD, ADHD, hyper sensitive, (00:42:12) whatever they use when I was growing up, (00:42:15) I found it all serves me well because it (00:42:18) all came out in songwriting. It it does (00:42:20) serve you well, which is so important (00:42:22) for people to hear. Everybody wants to (00:42:23) diagnose everybody and medicate them. (00:42:25) >> I had for sure ADHD when I was a kid. (00:42:28) >> Oh, please. (00:42:29) >> I think everybody that I know that's (00:42:30) talented and creative has ADHD, whatever (00:42:32) that means. (00:42:33) >> I tell all the parents, leave them (00:42:34) alone. (00:42:35) >> Leave them alone. (00:42:35) >> Leave them alone. No, there's there's (00:42:38) two types of kids, and I keep trying to (00:42:40) tell them. (00:42:40) >> There's academics. They're great. You (00:42:43) want them to remember. They can (00:42:45) remember. They can recite. They do (00:42:46) numbers. And then there's the creatives. (00:42:49) Okay. The last thing you want to do is (00:42:52) put a creative kid in a room full of (00:42:55) academics. The grades are not going to (00:42:57) be great, right? (00:42:58) >> And you're going to worry them to death. (00:43:00) >> Yeah. (00:43:00) >> Put them in a creative school where they (00:43:03) they're nurtured into their Yes. They (00:43:06) they they're going to they're going to (00:43:07) work on math and yes, they'll work on (00:43:09) their science, but don't make that the (00:43:11) priority. No one to this day has ever (00:43:14) asked to see my college degree. (00:43:17) No one to this day has ever asked me to (00:43:19) see my high school diploma. (00:43:21) >> You understand me? So, so was I an A (00:43:24) student, B student, C student, C (00:43:26) student, babes? I mean, I was right (00:43:28) there on the borderline of disaster, (00:43:31) >> but I was just happy to be there, (00:43:33) >> right? (00:43:34) >> But the point was (00:43:35) >> it's not important, (00:43:37) >> right? (00:43:38) >> What did you end up being? Who did you (00:43:40) end up discovering? How comfortable are (00:43:42) you with yourself? By the time you get (00:43:45) out of elementary school school, going (00:43:47) into high school, you're so inundated. (00:43:50) And let me tell you what's wrong with (00:43:52) Lionel. Lionel has a problem with And if (00:43:55) you listen to that crap, by the time you (00:43:57) go into college, (00:44:00) it's not happening. But now, here's the (00:44:03) joke. They told my family, my mom and (00:44:06) dad, ah, truthfully, Lionel is not (00:44:09) college material. I mean, in other (00:44:10) words, he's he should be creative. You (00:44:12) know who? They forgot to tell me. (00:44:16) The best thing they ever did, they (00:44:19) didn't tell me about that conversation, (00:44:21) which means it was okay. I didn't use (00:44:24) that as my crutch. (00:44:26) >> Don't tell somebody they have a (00:44:28) handicap. Just leave them alone. (00:44:29) >> Just let them figure out what they (00:44:31) actually like (00:44:31) >> because it's not a handicap. In other (00:44:33) words, I I learned years ago (00:44:37) a race car driver, he sees 200 m an hour (00:44:40) as can I get this to go any faster. (00:44:44) Magic Johnson, the basketball goal looks (00:44:47) like the size of the inside of a of a (00:44:50) building. That's how big it is in his (00:44:52) head. To me and you, it's a little tiny (00:44:55) thing at the other end of the court. You (00:44:57) follow me? (00:44:57) >> Yeah. (00:44:58) >> Okay. So my point is everybody has a (00:45:00) unique brain and how they see things. (00:45:03) Quit trying to put everybody in this one (00:45:06) little box. (00:45:08) If we can set up education where let (00:45:10) those that see it in freestyle has a (00:45:13) freestyle moment, (00:45:14) >> we'll get more out of kids, we'll get (00:45:16) more out of people if you just quit (00:45:18) trying to condemn them and let them (00:45:21) flourish in their lane, if you will. (00:45:23) >> Yeah. (00:45:24) >> And that's the special part. Yes. Okay. (00:45:26) Reading and writing. You got it. That's (00:45:28) important. (00:45:28) >> And now with with AI coming and all this (00:45:31) stuff, you don't have to do that (00:45:32) anymore. But I'm just saying it's (00:45:34) >> there's some basics you have to have. (00:45:36) But then after that, I think we're we're (00:45:38) crippling our kids because we're giving (00:45:40) them too many gotas in a world that's (00:45:43) constantly changing. (00:45:44) >> Yes. Especially now. (00:45:45) >> Especially now. (00:45:46) >> But if you if you your child is a (00:45:48) creative, the problem is that is such a (00:45:51) gamble. (00:45:52) Say if your child wants to be a lawyer, (00:45:54) you go, "Okay, you go to law school, you (00:45:56) get your degree, pass the bar, get work (00:45:59) for a firm, you're a lawyer, there's a (00:46:00) path, right? (00:46:01) >> You want to be a singer." Like, "Oh, (00:46:02) Christ." (00:46:03) >> My my recommendation, (00:46:07) >> get the law degree and then try to be a (00:46:09) singer. (00:46:11) >> Have a backup plan. (00:46:12) >> Back up. I mean, other words, you know, (00:46:14) in my case, I didn't have a backup plan. (00:46:17) I mean, I luckily my freshman year I (00:46:20) found that thing and I mean, how did it (00:46:22) work? That's why I said to you, is it (00:46:23) divine guidance? (00:46:25) >> It's divine guidance. (00:46:26) >> I didn't have a plan B. But I'm sure (00:46:29) there would have been one if it was time (00:46:31) for that to come into play. (00:46:32) >> Yeah. (00:46:33) >> If I told you how many lawyers now, (00:46:35) excuse me, how many (00:46:38) lawyers started out as singers? (00:46:41) They wanted to be in a band. If I told (00:46:44) you how many people that are now on Wall (00:46:45) Street, what do they do on the weekends? (00:46:48) They have a band. Yep. (00:46:49) >> You follow me? (00:46:50) >> Oh, yeah. There's a lot of that. (00:46:51) >> And so, as time goes on, okay, so you're (00:46:53) not the lead singer, but you're the (00:46:55) lawyer in the record company or you're (00:46:57) the manager or you're the agent. You (00:47:00) follow what I'm saying? There's 99 (00:47:01) million jobs under the word (00:47:04) entertainment, (00:47:05) >> right? (00:47:05) >> It's just that maybe you weren't going (00:47:07) to be the star (00:47:08) >> of the show, (00:47:10) >> but you're in the show. That's easy for (00:47:12) Lionel Richie to say though. If you're (00:47:14) that lawyer that wishes he was a star, (00:47:15) that's a real problem. (00:47:16) >> I know. And trust me, I run into those (00:47:18) guys who hate me. They (00:47:22) >> Oh, yeah. Lionel Richie. Oh, yeah. (00:47:23) Right. No, I I I get it. Of course. (00:47:25) >> I get it. And and and (00:47:28) I I understand it. It's um And by the (00:47:31) way, I mean, what what I like about the (00:47:33) book is everyone, just to let you know, (00:47:36) it it sounds like, you know, I I won. I (00:47:41) won. No, it was a struggle. I'm the (00:47:43) shiest guy in the world. It was painful. (00:47:46) Joe, walking on that stage, I said it (00:47:49) was a freshman talent show. The curtains (00:47:51) open. I went off with the curtains. (00:47:54) I The only reason that I was on that (00:47:56) stage, I didn't grow up with the guys in (00:47:59) the Mystics. They didn't know that (00:48:01) Lionel Richie from Tuskegee, Alabama was (00:48:03) the shiest kid in town. (00:48:06) They didn't know that. These are guys (00:48:08) that I didn't grow up with. (00:48:10) >> Oh. (00:48:11) >> So they said, "Hey, hey, man. You (00:48:12) brought your horn?" "Yeah." "You want to (00:48:14) be in a band?" Now you're talking to a (00:48:16) kid who goes, "Okay, we're going to do a (00:48:18) baseball team." What was the answer? (00:48:22) Okay, we'll take Lionel. (00:48:25) >> Which, okay, let's do a basketball game. (00:48:28) Okay. All right. We'll take Lionel. (00:48:31) >> Let's play football. Okay, we'll take (00:48:35) Lionel. These guys came along and said, (00:48:37) "Hey, you got your horn?" "Yeah, yeah. (00:48:40) You want to be in our band?" (00:48:43) Yeah. Right. (00:48:44) >> Right. (00:48:45) >> Bingo. (00:48:47) You mean you don't know about me? (00:48:50) >> You don't have to be defined by other (00:48:51) people's ideas of you. (00:48:52) >> That's exactly right. So, they said and (00:48:55) they said, "Okay, here's the part." And (00:48:56) I can you play the saxophone? Yeah, man. (00:48:58) I play I didn't tell them I brought the (00:49:00) horn to school to learn how to play it, (00:49:02) >> but I could play by ear. I could play by (00:49:06) ear. So unless we're reading music, I (00:49:11) sound like I know what I'm talking (00:49:12) about. (00:49:12) >> Right. (00:49:13) >> So it's became one of those things. And (00:49:16) by the time I got in the Commodores, (00:49:19) >> I didn't tell anybody. (00:49:22) >> I'm the greatest horn holder that ever (00:49:24) lived. Are you kidding me? (00:49:25) >> So just keep that secret and keep on (00:49:27) going. But what I'm saying to you, just (00:49:30) think about this for a moment. I mean, (00:49:32) it didn't start out with confidence. (00:49:33) They came out with a sooner or later (00:49:37) they're going to know I'm an impostor (00:49:42) and slowly but surely who worked the (00:49:45) hardest (00:49:46) me. Cuz sooner or later they're going to (00:49:49) find out (00:49:50) >> you got to catch up. (00:49:51) >> That I got to catch up. So every time we (00:49:53) had some time off I'm interviewing (00:49:55) Marvin. I'm interviewing you name it. (00:49:58) Anybody. Tell me what you did to get to (00:50:01) where you're going. Then I found out (00:50:03) nobody went to school to know what they (00:50:06) know. Holy crap. Now we're on to (00:50:09) something really serious. (00:50:11) >> Cuz then I had some aha moments. And so (00:50:14) if I can't play it, I can hum it. But (00:50:16) most of the time I could just play it. (00:50:17) Okay, I can play this. And as you learn, (00:50:21) you grow quickly. You have to learn (00:50:23) quickly now because we just signed the (00:50:24) contract and said we're now on Mottown (00:50:26) Records. I got to do a fast track here. (00:50:30) But it happened in real time. At any (00:50:34) moment, they could have called up and (00:50:35) said, "We're going to cut the group down (00:50:38) to the most significant people in the (00:50:40) group. Rich, you're out." (00:50:42) >> Oh. Oh, [ __ ] (00:50:44) >> So, I had to make sure. Let me let me (00:50:46) make sure I get this. I'm working harder (00:50:47) than anybody have you ever seen before (00:50:49) in your life. And so, that's how it's a (00:50:52) whole life of insecurity. (00:50:56) It wasn't secure. And then you get your (00:50:58) first song and you go, "Oh, okay. Okay, (00:51:00) that was lucky. Oh, okay." Then the guy (00:51:03) said, "Hey, kid. You got any more of (00:51:04) those songs?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I got (00:51:08) another one." You go home and look at (00:51:11) the guy in the mirror and go, "You got (00:51:13) any more songs?" Cuz I'm talking to (00:51:15) myself. And that's when you realize, (00:51:17) okay, out of fear, I got to come up with (00:51:20) another song. So, everyone keeps (00:51:23) thinking this this confident guy walking (00:51:25) in, I got another song for you. (00:51:28) I got to tell you how many times I (00:51:29) walked on stage, Joe, and had a panic (00:51:32) attack right in the middle of the show. (00:51:34) I'm having a massive panic attack. (00:51:37) >> Really? (00:51:37) >> Because I'm supposed to look like I got (00:51:41) this. (00:51:43) >> Wow. (00:51:44) >> When actually (00:51:46) I don't. (00:51:48) >> But eventually you did. Well, that's (00:51:50) what happened to Barbara Stryson and (00:51:51) that's what happened to I mean once you (00:51:53) realize as you start interviewing people (00:51:56) the people who are scared to death on (00:52:00) stage and then they realize as time went (00:52:02) on they they got used to it. But I (00:52:05) realized the thing that scares you to (00:52:08) death is the thing you have to keep (00:52:09) going forward on. (00:52:12) That's my dad's line again. (00:52:13) >> Yeah. (00:52:14) >> What's the what's the what's the (00:52:16) similarity between a hero and a coward? (00:52:19) One step forward. (00:52:20) >> Yeah. (00:52:20) >> And one step back. (00:52:23) No matter how much it scares me, (00:52:25) step forward. (00:52:26) >> Yeah. (00:52:27) >> And so each time I was not going to say (00:52:30) I'm not going on stage. I go on stage (00:52:32) and I'm going to sweat for two hours (00:52:36) and try to fake my ass off. And now it's (00:52:39) like second nature now. But at the time, (00:52:42) give me a break. That's so important for (00:52:45) young people to hear that a guy like you (00:52:47) would panic. Are you kidding me? Oh my (00:52:49) god, man. Have you ever met the (00:52:52) president before in life? No. Have you (00:52:54) ever been on stage in front of a 100,000 (00:52:56) people? No. Have you ever been in a club (00:52:59) with four people in the room looking at (00:53:00) you going, "What you going to do?" No. (00:53:03) I mean, you I mean, listen, I mean, it's (00:53:06) that's why when I see these kids on (00:53:08) American Idol, I don't know how they do (00:53:10) that. I came in with five other guys (00:53:13) going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, (00:53:15) >> right." They're singing ac cappella. (00:53:19) >> Yeah. (00:53:20) >> To me and Carrie and Luke. Are you kid? (00:53:24) And excuse me. And 20 million people (00:53:26) watching and a billion 200 million uh (00:53:30) live impressions. (00:53:32) Get the freak out of here. (00:53:33) >> Yeah. (00:53:34) >> So, I'm just saying for me to be this (00:53:37) authority, if you will, I can relate to (00:53:40) every one of their heartbeats on that (00:53:42) stage. I know what they're fearing. (00:53:45) That's why when I get around artists, (00:53:48) you don't try to blow them away with (00:53:50) your importance. First of all, do you (00:53:53) need a hug first? (00:53:55) What do you need? Let me talk to you for (00:53:56) a minute because you need Let me talk (00:53:59) you down for because you're you're (00:54:00) expecting too much out of us. (00:54:04) >> You follow me? (00:54:05) >> Yes. (00:54:05) >> Cuz we're all we're all students of (00:54:09) Scared to Death. (00:54:10) >> Yeah. If you're not, you're you're in (00:54:12) the wrong business. (00:54:12) >> That's exactly. And by the way, the the (00:54:14) book is not about how I won. It's how I (00:54:17) got not to the peaks, how I survived the (00:54:20) valleys. (00:54:21) >> The valleys of insecurity is it, man. (00:54:25) How do you get up and go, uh, you're (00:54:28) going to host the American Music Awards? (00:54:30) Dick wants you to do that. (00:54:33) Uh, (00:54:35) okay. Was that a big scary one for you? (00:54:37) Because you brought that up a couple (00:54:38) times. That one bothered you a lot. (00:54:40) >> Everything scared me. (00:54:44) Yeah, I I know you're not expecting this (00:54:47) interview, but I'm pleased. (00:54:49) >> Everything (00:54:51) scared me. You have to understand. (00:54:54) >> Um Lionel, we're going to do a (00:54:57) instrumental for a movie. It's called uh (00:55:01) In This Love. (00:55:03) Um I'm only doing Kenny's album. I'm (00:55:06) only doing the Commodore's album, but (00:55:08) because it's Franco Zepharelli and John (00:55:12) Peters and everybody, I'm thinking, (00:55:14) okay, I I can do an instrumental. Right. (00:55:17) Then halfway through the thing, they (00:55:18) said, well, we're going to shoot a scene (00:55:20) where we just need the lady to sing a (00:55:22) first verse to the person in in the (00:55:24) scene. Can you write a first verse? Uh, (00:55:27) yeah. Yeah. My love, there's only you in (00:55:29) my life. The only thing that's right, my (00:55:31) first love, your every breath that I (00:55:32) take, every step I make. Thank you. (00:55:35) Okay, got it. Is that it? Yeah. Right. (00:55:38) No, Lionel, we've decided now to make (00:55:40) this a duet and we're going to get Diana (00:55:43) Ross to sing uh the the ladies part. Who (00:55:47) do you recommend to sing the guy's part? (00:55:53) Are you out of your mind? It's me. What (00:55:56) are you talking about? (00:55:58) >> I I I'm not going to recommend somebody (00:56:00) else. (00:56:00) >> Were they beating around the bush? (00:56:01) >> I think they were. I think they I think (00:56:03) I think they were backing me and because (00:56:05) I told them I don't have time, (00:56:08) >> right? (00:56:09) >> So, I they they baited me by saying, you (00:56:12) know, uh it's going to be an (00:56:14) instrumental. But by the time I got (00:56:16) there, I'm thinking, okay, now here's (00:56:18) the problem. Diane is in New York. I'm (00:56:21) in LA. I'm doing two albums, Commodores (00:56:23) and Kenny Rogers. I'm not going to New (00:56:26) York and she can't come to LA. Where are (00:56:28) we going to meet? Tahoe. (00:56:32) Tahoe. We go to Tahoe. But it wasn't (00:56:34) what even to Reno. She's playing Reno. (00:56:38) >> So at the end of my Commodore night, 10 (00:56:41) to 6, Kenny Rogers 6 to 10, Lionel (00:56:45) Richie, and then 10 to 4 in the morning, (00:56:50) I got to get on a plane, fly to Tahoe, (00:56:53) and put Diana Ross on Endless Love. (00:56:56) >> Wow. Now, what you don't know when (00:56:59) you're that part of your life that you (00:57:03) could die from having creativity, (00:57:06) too much creating, (00:57:10) but at the same time, I never written a (00:57:12) duet ever. So, my first duet in life was (00:57:16) with Diana Ross. Do you think I was (00:57:18) nervous? Do you think I was nervous? Do (00:57:21) you think I was nervous? (00:57:24) I mean, I just kept praying, God, for (00:57:26) God's sakes, don't let me pass out in (00:57:29) front of Miss Ross. (00:57:31) >> Oh my God. (00:57:32) >> So, what I'm just saying to you, the the (00:57:33) title of the book could be Scared to (00:57:37) Death. I got titles, man. You know? (00:57:40) >> Yeah. (00:57:40) >> Because it's it's not (00:57:43) it's it's the first time of everything. (00:57:46) I've never done this before. And so just (00:57:50) imagine being put into a situation (00:57:52) throughout my entire career. (00:57:54) >> Wow. (00:57:55) >> Where um you know, step forward, Lionel. (00:57:59) Step forward. Step forward. Step (00:58:01) forward. Step forward. Can you all Can (00:58:03) you all hear my heart beating? No. Okay. (00:58:05) Good. Good. Step forward. Step forward. (00:58:08) That's what it's been. Wow. (00:58:11) Like I said, that's so important for (00:58:12) young people to hear because I think (00:58:13) they see someone with such a career and (00:58:15) so much success, they go, "Well, that (00:58:17) guy's just probably crazy confident and (00:58:19) always has been and just talented, (00:58:21) kissed by God." (00:58:22) >> No, no, no. (00:58:22) >> I I I tell people every day (00:58:25) >> what this book did for me, I discovered (00:58:30) Lionel Richie. (00:58:32) >> I'm the Italian race car driver. (00:58:34) >> Yeah. (00:58:35) >> I never looked behind me. I never paid (00:58:37) attention. And then all of a sudden this (00:58:39) book made me turn around and look behind (00:58:42) me. (00:58:43) >> It's interesting because if you want to (00:58:45) get things done in life, you kind of (00:58:46) have to be the Italian race car driver. (00:58:49) But if you want to get this thing done (00:58:51) in life, write a book about your life. (00:58:53) >> That requires that introspective (00:58:55) thinking. Yeah. And that recollection (00:58:57) and that recognition of like, oh my god, (00:59:00) like what did I go through? (00:59:01) >> I mean, what what was that? I mean, you (00:59:03) think about it, uh, you know, let's I (00:59:04) mean, you think, yes, I got the hit (00:59:07) record at the same time my mother was (00:59:10) dying. (00:59:12) >> Now, those two don't go together, (00:59:13) >> right? (00:59:14) >> You follow me? (00:59:14) >> Yeah. (00:59:15) >> Uh, I'm in I'm in the world tour of my (00:59:18) life. It's the Dancing on the Ceiling (00:59:22) Tour. It's I'm going to establish me (00:59:25) around the world. It's the all night (00:59:27) long Dancing on the Ceiling Tour. My (00:59:32) father's dying. (00:59:33) >> Oh god. (00:59:34) >> You follow what I'm saying? I mean, so (00:59:36) it's (00:59:38) okay. So now, how's dad doing? Oh, well, (00:59:41) he's he's he's doing okay. How's mom (00:59:43) doing? Okay, mom. Mom. Okay. Okay. (00:59:45) Should I come home? Lo, well, she's (00:59:47) okay. She's But I mean, she's okay, but (00:59:51) I can cancel the tour and come home. (00:59:54) Okay. But I mean, but but how's she (00:59:56) doing? When my sister's there, she Mom's (00:59:58) doing fine. She's doing great. But you (01:00:00) don't realize she's in the decline, but (01:00:03) you keep trying to balance this. What do (01:00:06) I do? (01:00:07) >> Yeah. (01:00:07) >> You know, and and so it's it's all (01:00:10) happening while it's happening. And so (01:00:14) it's, you know, how do you kind of (01:00:16) compartmentalize (01:00:19) the show, the writing, (01:00:24) and real life family? (01:00:27) You know, is it the is it the reunion? (01:00:29) We're having the reunion. Okay. (01:00:32) >> You know, it's the class reunion. It's (01:00:34) the family reunion. It's Have you ever (01:00:37) been to the family reunion? No. Didn't (01:00:39) make the family reunion. Why? Cuz when (01:00:42) you're in the Commodores, (01:00:43) when you really have your shows, it's (01:00:45) Christmas, New Year's, all the holidays, (01:00:49) all summer. So if you happen to have (01:00:53) any kind of reunion during those times, (01:00:56) you're not going to make it. (01:00:58) >> So it's the sacrifices. How many (01:01:00) barnfires did I make during college? (01:01:01) None. Pep rallies? No. Basketball (01:01:04) tournaments? None. (01:01:06) But I'm the commodors. We're the (01:01:08) commodors. You follow me? (01:01:10) >> Yeah. (01:01:10) >> So I always tell people what comes with (01:01:13) success (01:01:14) are the sacrifices. (01:01:16) And even after you make the sacrifices, (01:01:20) it's not guaranteed that you're going to (01:01:22) win. (01:01:23) >> And at your highest of highs, like the (01:01:25) all night long days, you're dealing with (01:01:27) your father dying. (01:01:28) >> Exactly. (01:01:30) >> So people would just see all they're (01:01:32) seeing is you and thousands of people (01:01:34) screaming and cheering when you're on (01:01:35) stage all over the world, sold out (01:01:37) shows, (01:01:38) >> but you're dealing with your father (01:01:39) dying. (01:01:40) >> Yeah. You're you're you're dealing with (01:01:42) moments. (01:01:46) You're trying to pretend like you're not (01:01:48) seeing it. You know, there's a moment (01:01:49) when you go home and your parents age (01:01:52) right in front of you. (01:01:54) >> You never noticed it before. (01:01:56) He wasn't dying yet, but you could see (01:01:59) the decline (01:02:02) until dancing on the ceiling. You see a (01:02:04) little bit more of the decline. (01:02:06) >> You follow what I'm saying? And then (01:02:07) finally you realize, holy [ __ ] this is (01:02:10) not going to be good at all. But but you (01:02:13) keep pretending like it's not happening, (01:02:16) if you know what I mean. You kind of put (01:02:17) that in that little compartment. (01:02:20) He's getting older, but he's he's okay. (01:02:22) He's okay. He's okay. He's okay. The (01:02:24) answer is no, he's not. (01:02:26) >> And then from that, you think that (01:02:28) everything else in your life is okay. Is (01:02:30) the marriage okay? No, he's not okay. (01:02:33) Nothing's okay. Why? Because all (01:02:35) priorities are going towards this new (01:02:38) thing you've never experienced before (01:02:40) called freaking hit record. (01:02:44) Going solo. I'm leaving the Commodores. (01:02:48) I'm leaving the Commodores. (01:02:51) These are the only five guys I've ever (01:02:53) trusted in my life. So everyone keeps (01:02:56) thinking, "Yeah, you went solo." No, no, (01:02:58) no, guys. What was that word that comes (01:03:00) with that? Scared. Fear. (01:03:02) >> Yeah. So, everyone keeps thinking, "And (01:03:04) then I decided to go solo." Oh, [ __ ] (01:03:11) The [ __ ] are you? Who Who are you (01:03:14) talking to? Leaving the Commodores, too, (01:03:17) is crazy. (01:03:18) >> Come on, man. (01:03:19) >> Crazy. The Commodores is a once in a (01:03:22) lifetime opportunity. And for you to (01:03:24) say, "I'm going to do it on my own." (01:03:26) >> No. No. That's not the way it was. (01:03:30) You're kidding. I'm not I'm not leaving (01:03:32) you guys. What are you talking about? (01:03:35) >> Leaving the Commodores is crazy. (01:03:37) >> I mean, for (01:03:38) >> you almost can't. (01:03:39) >> You You can't do it. But what was (01:03:42) happening behind the scenes, that's the (01:03:44) story. (01:03:45) >> What was happening behind the scenes was (01:03:48) And I understood. I understood, but (01:03:50) still I didn't want to accept it. It's (01:03:52) the guys. (01:03:53) >> Yeah. (01:03:54) >> Okay. The article read, (01:03:57) um, (01:03:59) "And then Lionel Richie sat down to the (01:04:02) piano and started playing his classic (01:04:04) hits." (01:04:08) Review. What's a guy like the Commodore? (01:04:10) What's a guy like Lionel Richie doing in (01:04:12) a funk band like the Commodores? (01:04:15) Joe, try to go back to rehearsal after (01:04:17) that review. (01:04:18) >> Oh god, (01:04:19) >> you got it. (01:04:20) >> Yeah. (01:04:21) >> Or now we've done Endless Love. Now (01:04:23) we've done Lady with Kenny Rogers. Tell (01:04:26) us, Lionel, how you started the group. (01:04:29) >> Oh no. (01:04:29) >> I I didn't start the group. (01:04:31) >> Oh no. (01:04:32) >> And now you walk into a group interview (01:04:35) and they knock Clyde over and they knock (01:04:37) uh Whack over the the play Tommy and (01:04:41) Lionel. Tell us about the band. (01:04:43) >> Oh no. (01:04:43) >> So what I tried to do was come later. (01:04:46) >> But by coming later, oh you think you're (01:04:48) big enough now where you don't have to (01:04:49) be in the group? But if I don't (01:04:52) >> if I'm on time, (01:04:54) >> they'll disrespect you, (01:04:56) >> right? (01:04:57) >> I got the feeling. I got their angst. (01:05:00) >> Yeah. (01:05:00) >> You follow me? (01:05:01) >> And this is a different time in the (01:05:02) world. See, today you could elevate (01:05:04) those folks through social media and (01:05:06) bring them up with you. (01:05:07) >> Of course. Of course. (01:05:09) >> That's the beauty of today. (01:05:11) >> Of course. (01:05:11) >> If you're working with talented people (01:05:12) and they're not getting shine, you go, (01:05:14) "Hey, this is this guy's great. (01:05:15) Everybody go see him." (01:05:17) >> Check it out. And then all of a sudden, (01:05:18) boom. And now they get the love and the (01:05:20) recognition. But back then everybody was (01:05:22) on their own. It was a dog eat dog world (01:05:24) and it was controlled by gangsters. (01:05:27) >> Arrest my case. The answer was I (01:05:30) realized one very important thing. (01:05:33) >> Throw the word degree (01:05:36) out of your vocabulary. (01:05:39) >> The music business. A degree. A degree (01:05:43) in music. A degree in business. A degree (01:05:45) in what? No. No. No man. This was street (01:05:49) degree, (01:05:49) >> right? Street psychology. (01:05:51) >> Yeah. What what did a guy tell me? He (01:05:52) said, um, I I'll tell you the the the (01:05:55) best course I ever took in life. And (01:05:57) this is a true story. He said, you know, (01:06:00) you school boys are funny, man. He says, (01:06:02) you all learn how to account for the (01:06:04) money. He says, we count the money. (01:06:09) >> And I said, okay, so what does that (01:06:11) mean? He says, somebody's got to teach (01:06:13) you how to steal. (01:06:14) >> Oh, God. (01:06:15) >> No, no, no, no. Best lesson I ever took (01:06:17) in my whole life because once you learn (01:06:20) how to steal the money, (01:06:21) >> you know how to stop (01:06:22) >> you know how to stop people from (01:06:23) stealing. (01:06:25) >> Yeah. (01:06:27) There's so many stories of bad deals. I (01:06:29) mean, I was reading an excerpt from this (01:06:31) book and I don't know if it's true. (01:06:33) >> It's a guy that thinks that Hrix was (01:06:35) killed rather than he died. And uh he (01:06:39) thinks that what was going on was that (01:06:41) Hrix was leaving his management (01:06:43) >> and his management had him locked up in (01:06:45) some crazy contract. They were stealing (01:06:46) money from him and (01:06:47) >> and they thought that he'd be more (01:06:49) valuable dead since they owned the (01:06:51) records. (01:06:52) >> Mhm. Mhm. (01:06:54) >> And that's this is this is like you (01:06:58) coming from the 70s in the professional (01:07:00) business from the 70s on dealing with (01:07:03) that was the business back then. (01:07:04) >> Yeah. (01:07:05) >> I mean (01:07:05) >> Yeah. Look at Phil Spectre. The guy's in (01:07:07) jail now for shooting a woman in the (01:07:09) mouth in his house. (01:07:10) >> These were (01:07:11) >> Yeah. (01:07:12) >> gangsters. (01:07:14) >> Uh yeah. I mean the answer is (01:07:18) there is a um one moment when I looked (01:07:23) into my mom and dad's face (01:07:27) and I said uh (01:07:30) hey they they just stole $363,000 (01:07:35) from me and my mother said you leave (01:07:38) those people alone and come home and I (01:07:40) go no no no no no mommy mom it only cost (01:07:44) me3 $362,000 to learn that lesson. It's (01:07:47) never going to happen again. And I was (01:07:50) so excited about it. She looked at me (01:07:51) and said, "My son's crazy." (01:07:55) >> That is a crazy response. (01:07:56) >> But but the answer is (01:07:57) >> very logical. (01:07:58) >> You can lose millions. You can lose (01:08:00) billions. (01:08:00) >> Sure. (01:08:01) >> Okay. So, if it only took me 362,000, (01:08:05) I got off light, man. You understand me? (01:08:07) >> For sure. But it's and not only that, (01:08:10) can you keep your can you keep your can (01:08:13) you keep your life? I mean, just think (01:08:16) about it, you know, when you go to the (01:08:18) box office, everybody had a gun. Now, (01:08:20) here's the beautiful part about it, cuz (01:08:22) I knew that later, nobody's going to (01:08:23) shoot anybody. It's just if you How (01:08:26) naive were you? If you were naive and a (01:08:28) little school boy, you could get shot (01:08:30) and killed. But as you started learning (01:08:32) who the gangsters are, (01:08:35) that was just an intimidating factor. (01:08:37) But you had to be once you knew them. (01:08:40) >> Yeah. (01:08:40) >> Then they go, "Come on, Lionel. Just (01:08:42) cover us a little bit." You know, but (01:08:43) >> that's even more disconcerting. They (01:08:45) become normal. (01:08:45) >> They become normal. (01:08:47) >> That's what gets weird. (01:08:48) >> That's what gets weird (01:08:49) >> when you're around normalized gangsters. (01:08:51) >> That's exactly right. And then you start (01:08:53) and then your mother starts meeting them (01:08:55) on their way to Miami. They would drive (01:08:57) and they stop by Tuskegee to see the (01:09:00) school boys. And here's a guy dead of (01:09:03) homecoming season in a full head to toe (01:09:06) mink hat, mink coat, mink, (01:09:10) pink el dorado (01:09:13) dorado (01:09:14) >> driving across the campus and you go to (01:09:17) your instructors. Yeah, this is my uh my (01:09:19) friend uh you know uh tall Paul. You I (01:09:22) got all kind of got names for him out. (01:09:25) We had a Oh my god. We had we had names. (01:09:29) You can't you can't make this up. (01:09:31) >> Yeah. (01:09:32) >> You know, and how do you ex introduce (01:09:34) them to the president of the university? (01:09:36) The answer is you don't. You don't do (01:09:38) it. You don't. (01:09:38) >> You don't. (01:09:40) >> God, what was it like navigating that (01:09:43) world? (01:09:44) >> It was Joe one of the most exciting (01:09:47) things ever. Why? I never experienced (01:09:50) anything like this before, (01:09:51) >> right? (01:09:51) >> I mean, I I mean, listen, (01:09:53) >> who does? (01:09:54) >> I I listen. You mean Wait, wait. See, (01:09:56) see we played gangster. (01:10:00) They weren't playing gangster. (01:10:02) >> Right? (01:10:02) >> You follow me? (01:10:03) >> Right. (01:10:03) >> So, we are with the gangsters, (01:10:07) >> right? (01:10:07) >> And it it just became so another world (01:10:13) where what the guy say in our world, (01:10:17) Lionel, it's not how long you live, it's (01:10:20) how well you live while you're living. (01:10:22) >> Now, that's a profound statement from (01:10:24) him. That's I don't want to know (01:10:27) anything about that. But you have to (01:10:29) listen, right? This they don't plan on (01:10:32) living a long life, but they plan on (01:10:35) living well while they're here, (01:10:37) >> right? (01:10:38) >> So, it's nothing to say when you go back (01:10:39) to New York for the next summer. (01:10:41) Whatever happened to so- and so, oh (01:10:42) yeah, he got shot in December. (01:10:45) >> All normal normaliz that's that's (01:10:47) normal. He's leaving town or they're (01:10:49) leaving town, (01:10:50) >> right? And so as time went on, it became (01:10:53) a shortterm (01:10:57) view of a very long-term (01:11:02) problem (01:11:03) that has always been normalized because (01:11:06) a part of (01:11:08) legal (01:11:10) is illegal or desirabs and undesirabs. (01:11:15) That's just a part of the city, (01:11:17) >> right? (01:11:18) >> And here's what you find out. The most (01:11:19) important thing the desirabs know the (01:11:24) undesirabs. (01:11:25) >> Yeah. (01:11:25) >> You go backstage and you go wait you two (01:11:27) know each other (01:11:29) >> what? (01:11:30) >> Right. (01:11:30) >> You know but that's what happens in this (01:11:32) world of cities in this world of (01:11:35) culture. You know everybody has that (01:11:37) what's that line I used to use all the (01:11:39) time? Who are you really? (01:11:40) >> Right. Right. (01:11:42) >> And until it it is revealed later. Yeah. (01:11:45) In the music business, we see it all. (01:11:49) Backstage is all, (01:11:52) >> front row is all, (01:11:54) >> right? (01:11:54) >> You follow me? (01:11:55) >> So, you just have to understand it's a (01:11:57) it's probably one of the greatest (01:11:59) educations in the world cuz (01:12:01) >> everybody backstage is who they are, (01:12:03) >> right? (01:12:04) >> Not who they say they are. (01:12:05) >> Right. Right. That's got to be bizarre (01:12:07) seeing like captains of industry (01:12:10) mingling with gangsters, (01:12:13) >> heads of enormous. (01:12:14) >> Hi Phil. Hi Bill. Hi John. Hi David. And (01:12:17) by the way, it's okay. But remember now, (01:12:20) >> we're a street business, (01:12:21) >> right? (01:12:22) >> We're a street business. And is it a (01:12:24) street business because (01:12:27) gangsters always controlled a certain (01:12:30) percentage of what's going on in the (01:12:31) streets and cities? or is it a street (01:12:33) business because you don't really need (01:12:36) an education to do it. You do it on (01:12:38) instinct and everyone needs it because (01:12:41) it's really like what you're what you (01:12:43) produce is like a drug. You know, I can (01:12:46) listen to one of your own songs and it's (01:12:47) it just puts me in a state of mind like (01:12:49) ah (01:12:50) >> bingo, (01:12:51) >> man. It does something to you (01:12:53) physically. So, they're you know, (01:12:54) they're in the drug business, too. (01:12:56) >> But bingo. (01:12:57) >> They're in the cash business. They're in (01:12:59) the live entertainment and nightclub (01:13:00) business. Let's talk Vegas, (01:13:03) >> right? Founded (01:13:04) >> fight was a Harvard grad the founder of (01:13:07) of of Vegas? (01:13:08) >> No. Okay. So, what I'm saying to you, (01:13:12) the problem that happened with all of (01:13:14) these businesses we now have. They (01:13:16) legitimized it. (01:13:19) >> They messed the whole thing up, (01:13:21) >> right? (01:13:22) >> Did the movie business start out with (01:13:23) wonderful PhD guys from (01:13:25) >> No. (01:13:26) >> No. The It started from (01:13:28) >> the street. Yeah. You follow me? (01:13:30) >> And so what we are trying to do now is (01:13:32) we've tried to legitimize all of this (01:13:34) stuff pasturize. We want to do the whole (01:13:37) thing. The answer is no. No, man. We (01:13:39) messed the whole thing up. (01:13:40) >> Yeah. (01:13:40) >> Because what it was is the fascination (01:13:44) of, "Hey, Lionel, can I put my name on (01:13:46) your album?" (01:13:47) >> Right. (01:13:48) >> Why? I got to move some stuff around. (01:13:50) But the answer is, I couldn't do it (01:13:51) because I don't want to get in trouble (01:13:53) from the, you know, you're kind of (01:13:54) trying to dodge these guys. But the (01:13:56) point is, it's real. So, I care what I (01:14:00) won't I won't put a business like that (01:14:02) together. What I'll do is start the (01:14:04) business. (01:14:06) Hey, what a great way to do that. But (01:14:08) the only thing wrong with that is as (01:14:11) time goes on, someone asks a very (01:14:13) difficult question. I like to see the (01:14:15) books. (01:14:17) >> That's a tough one. (01:14:19) >> Go deal with that one. (01:14:20) >> Yeah. (01:14:21) >> So, you follow where we're coming from. (01:14:23) So I for us for me as as they used to (01:14:26) call us in Harlem, the school boys, you (01:14:29) know, for the school boys, this was (01:14:31) fantasy land, right? (01:14:33) >> Are you kidding me? I mean, we didn't (01:14:34) think we're going to die. This was like (01:14:36) the best course we ever took in the (01:14:38) world from the originals. (01:14:40) >> Right. Right. (01:14:41) >> This is not some hearsay. And they (01:14:43) adopted us as the school boys. (01:14:46) >> That's so wild. (01:14:48) That must have been just an insane (01:14:50) experience as a young man going. You (01:14:54) have no idea. You have Joe, (01:14:57) >> you have no (01:14:58) >> I can't even imagine (01:14:59) >> idea. And then you know I mean the days (01:15:03) of (01:15:06) the days of Smalls Paradise. I mean this (01:15:09) is the club of clubs in Harlem. The days (01:15:12) of uh um (01:15:15) Studio 54. (01:15:18) Michael Jackson's 21st birthday. Give me (01:15:21) a break. I mean, and back then, what I (01:15:25) loved about private clubs was the reason (01:15:28) it was private is because if you can't (01:15:31) keep a secret, if you weren't in the (01:15:33) building, you can't find out what's (01:15:36) happening in the building. Now, (01:15:38) everybody's got a phone, (01:15:39) >> right? (01:15:40) >> And everybody can't wait to take a (01:15:41) picture or rat on somebody. So you can't (01:15:43) have a private club in the book because (01:15:46) >> everybody's going to tell what they saw (01:15:48) inside. (01:15:48) >> Exactly. (01:15:49) >> But back then once they let you in those (01:15:52) doors (01:15:53) >> Yeah. (01:15:54) >> First of all, it was a privilege that (01:15:56) they thought that much about you to let (01:15:58) you in. And then once you got in, it was (01:16:01) you were in the you were in the club, (01:16:04) man. Wow. (01:16:07) God, it must been so exciting. (01:16:10) and to be surrounded by so many (01:16:12) extraordinary people at that time. What (01:16:15) was it like watching Michael Jackson (01:16:17) explode? (01:16:19) >> You know, I talk about him and I talk (01:16:21) about Elvis a lot in that if you look at (01:16:24) as a a study of fame that there's a (01:16:26) certain level of fame that you achieve (01:16:29) that's completely and wholly (01:16:31) unmanageable, right? (01:16:32) >> And it's like the Elvis level and I (01:16:34) think he was like the first guy to (01:16:35) really reach that level. And then it was (01:16:37) Michael Jackson who went to a completely (01:16:39) different place. Michael Jackson, he's (01:16:40) even surpassed that which seems more (01:16:42) insane. And look at that photograph. (01:16:45) >> That's uh that's at Studio 54 on (01:16:48) Michael's 21st birthday. (01:16:50) >> Wow. (01:16:52) >> Yeah. (01:16:53) >> Wow. (01:16:54) >> And the mustache was thicker than ever, (01:16:55) man. I just (01:16:58) >> It dripped down. (01:16:59) >> You all know I had the little hook over (01:17:00) on the side. Come on, man. (01:17:03) You know, cuz he he never had a a normal (01:17:07) moment. (01:17:07) >> No, (01:17:08) >> he was famous when he was a little boy. (01:17:09) I remember when when AB what was was (01:17:11) what show did ABC (01:17:15) what would they broadcast? (01:17:16) >> That was uh was it Ed Sullivan? Was that (01:17:20) then they first when they first hit? (01:17:22) >> Yes. (01:17:22) >> It was either Ed Sullivan or Dick Clark. (01:17:24) I think it was Ed Sullivan when they (01:17:25) blew up. Blew up. But I remember him (01:17:27) singing ABC's when he was just a boy and (01:17:31) I was like, "My god, he is so talented." (01:17:34) Like like exploding in talent, exploding (01:17:39) in charisma like I'd never seen before. (01:17:42) You'd seen so many artists and so many (01:17:45) people that were maybe maybe it was (01:17:47) because of the youth, too. It's like (01:17:49) he's so free. He was so free. (01:17:52) >> Yeah. the (01:17:54) >> his so so much charisma and talent. It (01:17:58) was just insane. Like look at this. Give (01:18:00) me some of this. (01:18:01) >> I mean I mean come on. Listen. (01:18:03) >> You can't play any of that. (01:18:04) >> No. No. But but but but watch him jump (01:18:06) out front. If he does if when you see (01:18:08) the scene where he comes out front. Oh, (01:18:11) this guy didn't know the clip. But if he (01:18:14) ever spins around one time and you'll (01:18:16) see something that looks so simple to (01:18:20) do, he got that from Jackie Wilson. (01:18:25) >> I said, "Where did you get that from?" (01:18:26) He said, "Lonel, that's Jackie Wilson. (01:18:29) That's But if you see him spin and come (01:18:31) back to dead center (01:18:34) now, this is when he was just getting (01:18:36) his wings to flap." (01:18:37) >> Wow. This is How old is he here? (01:18:40) >> Uh, he's got to be 12. (01:18:42) >> Wow. 12, 11, 12. And and of course at (01:18:45) this time it was just ridiculous because (01:18:49) he knew what he was doing. (01:18:52) >> He knew exactly I mean this is the (01:18:55) oldest soul you've ever met in your (01:18:57) life. (01:18:57) >> Really? (01:18:58) >> I I I couldn't tell you. And then they (01:19:01) walk off stage and turn into 12 year (01:19:04) olds. This kid turned into itching (01:19:06) powder in your afro or (01:19:10) see how you stand out front and see how (01:19:11) he points to you now. (01:19:14) I know what he's saying right now. (01:19:16) >> Wow. (01:19:16) >> Right. (01:19:20) Okay. (01:19:28) >> God beat (01:19:32) >> crazy. He was so crazy. (01:19:35) >> And if you see him with that, (01:19:38) I mean, I I'll be honest with you. I (01:19:40) mean, we forgot sometimes (01:19:44) that that this is going to happen cuz (01:19:46) when you're backstage or in the hotel (01:19:49) room, that's a kid, (01:19:51) >> right? (01:19:51) >> That's a kid. Um then as time went on, (01:19:54) things happened where you could see it (01:19:57) getting weird. For example, um (01:20:01) I'd go down the hall and I'd say, "Um, (01:20:03) where's Mike?" And they said, "He's in (01:20:04) the room." Okay. And meanwhile, what (01:20:08) became normal was, "Watch out. Be (01:20:11) careful. The girls are coming. Watch (01:20:14) out. Be careful. Stay in the room. The (01:20:15) girls are coming." Now, if you (01:20:18) understand the Commodores, Jermaine was (01:20:21) a bass player. He hooked up with the (01:20:23) bass player of the Commodores, Ronald. (01:20:26) the drummer, Clyde, follow me. The lead (01:20:29) singer, me. So, Michael and I bonded at (01:20:33) 12:13 because the lead singer. So, I (01:20:35) went down to check him out and I say, (01:20:37) "Where's Michael?" "He's in the room." I (01:20:38) go in the room. "Hey, Mike, where are (01:20:40) you?" Okay, where is he? He's hiding in (01:20:43) the bathroom. The girls are out there. I (01:20:46) said, "Girls, what do you mean? There's (01:20:48) no girls out there. They sealed off the (01:20:49) floor. Come go with me." Now, they got (01:20:51) mad at me because I'd walk out in the (01:20:53) hall and go, "Come go with me. (01:20:55) I said, "You seen the girls out there?" (01:20:57) "Oh, I thought they were I thought they (01:20:59) were in the whole Lionel." Whoa. (01:21:01) >> Okay. So, in other words, watch out. Be (01:21:04) careful. But they're protecting the (01:21:05) Golden Goose, ladies and gentlemen. Do (01:21:08) you follow me? But the Golden Goose (01:21:09) needs play period time. He needs (01:21:11) playtime, (01:21:12) >> right? He's still a kid. (01:21:13) >> He's a kid. And so, (01:21:14) >> you're freaking him out. (01:21:15) >> Germaine Tito, these they listen, they (01:21:18) go on dates, guys. They hang. They You (01:21:21) know, Michael can't hang downstairs. (01:21:24) >> Wow. Right. And so as time went on, you (01:21:26) could see the slow shutdown (01:21:30) of trying to protect an incredibly (01:21:33) talented person, but at the same time, (01:21:35) he got special treatment. (01:21:38) >> And so what I tried to do every chance I (01:21:40) could was, "Hey man, come to get you in (01:21:42) the car. Come over here. Let's get it (01:21:44) together." You know, (01:21:45) >> hang hang. Yeah. you know, and and so, (01:21:49) you know, we went through that period of (01:21:50) time where we don't stay together long (01:21:53) cuz once we the Commodores took off, we (01:21:56) didn't have that everyday time anymore, (01:21:58) right? (01:21:58) >> You follow me? But every once in a (01:21:59) while, we get together and and you know, (01:22:01) there's a little rumor that's out right (01:22:03) now that I I want to clean up right (01:22:05) quick. They said in Lionel's book, (01:22:07) Lionel called my uh Michael smelly. (01:22:12) Didn't like the way he smelled. I said, (01:22:14) "No, that's not what I So, let me clean (01:22:16) this up." Okay. So, imagine sending your (01:22:20) clothes out anywhere and you get half of (01:22:23) your clothes back. The other half of (01:22:25) your clothes are souvenirs. (01:22:27) >> You follow me? So, what he would do is (01:22:29) if he had a pair of jeans, right, he'd (01:22:31) wear the jeans until they tried to run (01:22:33) away from him. (01:22:36) Do (01:22:36) >> you understand? (01:22:36) >> People were stealing his clothes. (01:22:37) >> They stealing his clothes, right? Oh my (01:22:39) god. or or or he'd he'd he'd walk in the (01:22:42) house some days (01:22:44) and I'm looking down at his feet and I (01:22:46) go, "Michael, (01:22:48) your shoes are flopping on your feet. (01:22:50) The the two sizes too large for you." I (01:22:53) know, Lionel. The guy we were in (01:22:55) someplace, he gave me a pair of shoes (01:22:58) and I told him, "Thank you very much." I (01:22:59) said, "But Michael, you could have (01:23:00) gotten the shoes in the right size." I (01:23:02) know, but I didn't want to embarrass (01:23:04) him. So, he's walking around with two (01:23:06) sizes too large. You understand me? So (01:23:09) he'll come by the house. We wore the (01:23:11) same size right in certain by the time (01:23:13) he became that teenager. So I said, "Go (01:23:16) in the closet, uh, get a pair of jeans." (01:23:18) So literally, he changed clothes. And by (01:23:21) the way, he left the clothes on the (01:23:23) floor in the room and walked away from (01:23:26) them. In other words, he he'd wear them (01:23:28) until he got into the pair. And so we (01:23:31) call him, Quincy called him, "Okay, here (01:23:33) comes Smelly." And so his nickname was (01:23:36) for in for the insiders was Smelly. (01:23:41) Follow me. So when I said it in the (01:23:43) book, everybody goes, "Oh my god, Lionel (01:23:46) called Michael Jackson Smelly." And I (01:23:47) go, "No, that's not it. That's that's (01:23:50) his name. That was his (01:23:53) I revealed that." (01:23:54) >> That's hilarious. But it's so hilarious (01:23:57) that people were just stealing his (01:23:58) clothes. (01:23:58) >> Oh man, please. I mean, (01:24:00) >> poor guy. The kid when he was 12, 13, (01:24:02) 14, send underwear out, it doesn't come (01:24:05) back. T-shirt out, no t-shirt back. (01:24:08) Socks out, no socks back. So, it's what (01:24:11) he ba basically had was a new pair of (01:24:13) underwear. Every time he put a pair of (01:24:15) underwear on, it was new. (01:24:17) >> Wow. (01:24:17) >> Yeah. Because it's just not going to (01:24:19) happen. It's coming back. (01:24:21) >> How many Michael Jackson's underwear is (01:24:22) out there on eBay or something? (01:24:24) >> Can I tell you if they if they stole it (01:24:26) in the 70s? Can That's an admission. I (01:24:29) stole it. That's number one. But by the (01:24:31) way, very valuable. (01:24:32) >> Probably (01:24:33) >> very valuable. (01:24:34) >> Probably crazy valuable. (01:24:35) >> And you know what? I would love to put (01:24:37) that out there. Say no prosecution (01:24:39) needed, right? (01:24:40) >> It was not going to happen. Could you (01:24:41) reveal yourself? So cuz that's got to be (01:24:44) I would have that frame right away. (01:24:46) >> It's just so bananas that that was just (01:24:48) ubiquitous. They would just steal his (01:24:49) clothes. But it just makes sense because (01:24:51) what what I was saying is about the (01:24:53) Elvis thing applies to him plus is that (01:24:56) there there's no road map for that. (01:24:59) There's no road mapap for navigating (01:25:01) that level of fame, you know, and (01:25:04) >> even you as as an adult, as a grown man, (01:25:08) >> you know, (01:25:10) you're when your peak of fame had to (01:25:13) have been (01:25:14) >> so surreal (01:25:16) >> that it's it's hard to not lose who you (01:25:18) are. Most people lose who they are. If (01:25:21) you say, "Oh, she went crazy." [ __ ] (01:25:23) you would go crazy, too. You know what (01:25:25) the [ __ ] you're talking about? You've (01:25:27) never been a superstar in front of the (01:25:29) whole world or judging everything you (01:25:31) do. (01:25:31) >> No. No. And then and then that thing (01:25:33) came along called the phone. At least (01:25:35) >> At least if they did see you, (01:25:38) >> they caught you in that place. (01:25:40) >> Yeah. (01:25:40) >> But they only saw you, (01:25:42) >> but now they're looking at you (01:25:46) everywhere, right? (01:25:47) >> So the press is everybody. (01:25:49) >> Just imagine that. (01:25:50) >> Yeah. (01:25:51) >> Okay. So, but I mean in my case, I got (01:25:56) used to it. I I I got to admit I mean of (01:25:58) course you think something happened. (01:26:00) >> Oh, did I do it? Did I Did I (01:26:02) >> Oh, no worries. Somebody was probably (01:26:03) messing with it before you. (01:26:04) >> I I pop out all the time. (01:26:06) >> I live with that sound all the time. No, (01:26:09) but what happens with me was we went (01:26:12) from you could actually be (01:26:16) you could actually sneak. I like that (01:26:18) word. (01:26:18) >> Sneak around. Sneak means you can look (01:26:20) out. Do you see anybody you know? If you (01:26:23) don't see anybody, you know, you can (01:26:25) sneak. And then something happens one (01:26:27) day. You walk in a room, (01:26:31) you you came in through the back door, (01:26:34) you sit at a table in the back door, (01:26:37) the band starts playing three times. A (01:26:39) lady. (01:26:40) >> Oh my god. (01:26:41) >> And then everybody turns around and (01:26:42) says, "Hi, Lionel." (01:26:44) >> Oh no. (01:26:45) >> Okay. Okay. All right. And you thought (01:26:48) you were just sneaking your ass off. You (01:26:50) ain't sneaking nothing. You try to sneak (01:26:52) around and get some dinner. (01:26:53) >> That ain't not happening. And then the (01:26:54) next thing that happens, which is (01:26:56) >> you want to have a nice anniversary (01:27:00) dinner, (01:27:01) right? Anniversary dinner is the best (01:27:03) dinner ever. Romantic place. Mhm. And (01:27:08) three ladies walk over to take him say, (01:27:09) "Hi, Lionel. How are you? We want to (01:27:10) tell you we love you and we want to tell (01:27:12) you about Great. That's great." And then (01:27:15) your wife says, "Who are those ladies?" (01:27:19) I don't know. I've never met him before. (01:27:21) I know, but they seem so familiar. (01:27:24) >> What? (01:27:27) Okay. Wait. This is not good because now (01:27:30) the romantic session just turned into (01:27:32) But now I've never experienced this (01:27:34) before. Remember now this is new. This (01:27:35) is not (01:27:36) >> I I know now not to go to the romantic (01:27:38) place. You go someplace where you can (01:27:40) have a have a great time. But (01:27:42) >> the point was back then this is first (01:27:44) time happening, (01:27:45) >> right? (01:27:46) >> And you're trying to be like all your (01:27:47) other friends. You take your wife out or (01:27:49) you take your girlfriend out or you go (01:27:50) to dinner and you have a No, no, no, (01:27:52) man. It becomes now everybody's watching (01:27:55) you and they can't wait to come over and (01:27:57) say, "Can I have an autograph?" (01:27:58) >> Right. (01:27:58) >> And now they come up and say, "Can we (01:28:00) have a picture?" (01:28:00) >> Right. (01:28:02) >> And so it becomes This is (01:28:04) >> very weird. (01:28:05) >> This is very weird. (01:28:06) >> Yeah. (01:28:07) >> Yeah. (01:28:08) >> You have to plan where you go. (01:28:09) >> Plan where you go. And more importantly, (01:28:11) be fully dressed before you leave. (01:28:14) >> Don't so do something stupid. Right. But (01:28:17) I mean it (01:28:19) I don't I don't want I'm I love it. I (01:28:21) I'm (01:28:22) >> No, it's not a complaint. It's just (01:28:23) detailing a unique aspect of your life (01:28:26) being a famous person. (01:28:27) >> I tell people all the time and this is (01:28:28) the truth. (01:28:30) I hope you like people. (01:28:33) I hope you like people cuz if you don't, (01:28:35) you're not going to like fame, (01:28:37) >> right? Okay. They keep thinking they're (01:28:39) going to be famous and rich and No, no, (01:28:42) no. Do you like people? (01:28:44) >> Right. cuz they're going to be in your (01:28:46) face and in your business with an (01:28:48) opinion (01:28:50) all the time. (01:28:52) >> Yeah. Now, you want to go to a recital (01:28:54) with your kid and it's your kid's piano (01:28:57) recital. I hope you like being famous (01:29:00) cuz while your kid is playing the (01:29:02) recital, the parents are going to be (01:29:03) asking you for your autograph. (01:29:05) >> Not the kids, the parents. (01:29:07) >> Yeah. I made the mistake and decided (01:29:09) I'll go to SeaWorld with my kid and I'll (01:29:13) go by myself on the parents bus. You (01:29:16) know who protected me on the whole trip? (01:29:18) The kids. My kid Miles said, "Okay, we (01:29:21) got to protect my dad cuz the parents (01:29:25) are coming." And everybody at SeaWorld (01:29:28) showed up and there's Lionel Richie at (01:29:30) SeaWorld with his kid. So I had four (01:29:33) little kids surround me and go, I said, (01:29:35) "Guys, I'm with them. We're with the (01:29:37) school. But I mean, it becomes, holy (01:29:40) crap, what the hell's going on? (01:29:42) >> It's annoying for them, too. (01:29:43) >> Of course it is. Yeah. (01:29:45) >> But you can't have that moment, (01:29:47) >> right, (01:29:48) >> with your kids. And And it's And it's a (01:29:50) big it's a big deal because at that (01:29:53) time, (01:29:54) >> ABC, NBC, CBS, and a new station just (01:29:58) came out called CNN. Other than that, to (01:30:03) see you to have a sighting, right, (01:30:05) >> was like (01:30:06) >> different. (01:30:07) >> Come on, man. (01:30:08) >> Yeah. No one know I I I couldn't imagine (01:30:11) what it was like being famous when (01:30:13) there's only four channels in the radio. (01:30:16) >> The Olympics, 2.5 (01:30:19) 2.6 (01:30:21) billion people watching (01:30:24) live live. (01:30:28) >> Wow. So I went from Lionel Richie to (01:30:32) Lionel Richie all night long. The end of (01:30:35) my name became all night long. L Richie (01:30:38) all night long. Hey L Richie all night (01:30:39) long. (01:30:40) >> Every country in the world I became Lana (01:30:44) Richie all night long. (01:30:45) >> Wow. (01:30:47) What was that like performing? (01:30:49) >> There it is. (01:30:50) >> In front of that many humans. What was (01:30:52) that feeling like? Was it different than (01:30:55) a regular performance? Joe, it it it (01:30:58) felt like a regular performance, but I (01:31:01) had never in my life had (01:31:05) the world watching. (01:31:07) So, I rehearsed it. We did it not (01:31:11) realizing (01:31:14) it was the world, literally the world (01:31:17) watching. And if go back and look at (01:31:19) that little podium, what was supposed to (01:31:22) happen at the beginning of this was (01:31:26) Ronald Reagan was supposed to come out (01:31:27) and greet had his speech. I know I speak (01:31:31) on behalf of everyone in America and the (01:31:34) entire world how proud we are of these (01:31:36) fine athletes. That was his speech, (01:31:39) right? Because that night there were (01:31:42) death threats. They had, you know, they (01:31:44) decided it's too risky to have him on (01:31:47) the field. Lionel, would you give the (01:31:50) speech on behalf of all of America and (01:31:54) the entire world? (01:31:56) Stop me where I am. (01:31:58) >> Oh my god. So before I started singing, (01:32:03) I had to make my speech. (01:32:06) I know how proud we are (01:32:10) here in America and around the world of (01:32:12) these fine athletes. (01:32:16) And now we're going to sing all night (01:32:18) long. But I had to give this thing. (01:32:19) >> Wow. (01:32:20) >> And I told him, I said, "Well, that was (01:32:22) that was the proud moment after I came (01:32:24) off stage before I went on stage was, (01:32:27) well, if (01:32:29) Mr. Reagan's worried about his life, (01:32:31) what what about mine? What's gonna (01:32:32) happen here?" You know, but it was so (01:32:36) overwhelmingly (01:32:38) that you talk about energy and (01:32:40) adrenaline and (01:32:43) you can't beat 2.6 billion people live (01:32:48) and it you think Super Bowl was (01:32:50) something special. I'll tell you what (01:32:52) this was. Nobody there was not another (01:32:56) channel covering anything. The whole (01:32:59) world was watching this. That's hard for (01:33:01) people to imagine in this day of (01:33:03) content. (01:33:04) >> Exactly. Right. (01:33:05) >> That that will never happen again unless (01:33:07) it's the aliens are landing Monday at 8 (01:33:09) a.m. (01:33:10) >> Exactly. Correct. (01:33:11) >> That that's the one where the aliens (01:33:12) landed. (01:33:13) >> Oh, that fake fake. (01:33:14) >> Right. Right. And by the way, that's (01:33:16) what happened. That was the opening. But (01:33:18) what you don't see there, that's that (01:33:20) was the That's very good, man. I hadn't (01:33:22) seen this clip. Uh what was happening (01:33:25) with that was just before it started (01:33:29) they sealed off the airspace (01:33:32) and I I remember looking out there were (01:33:36) four helicopters facing out (01:33:40) and the problem was you couldn't hear (01:33:42) them Joe and I kept thinking I'm looking (01:33:45) at helicopters and they said I said (01:33:47) what's that right there and they said (01:33:49) they sealed off the airspace. (01:33:52) >> Whoa. Nothing's coming in to this place. (01:33:55) 1 2 3 4. (01:33:57) >> Wait a minute. You couldn't hear the (01:33:58) helicopters that were holding up the (01:34:00) flying saucers? (01:34:00) >> I couldn't hear a thing. (01:34:03) >> How's that possible? (01:34:04) >> I don't know. (01:34:06) >> That's what's scary. (01:34:07) >> That's what I'm saying. (01:34:08) >> Military 51 ship. (01:34:11) >> You understand what I'm saying? And the (01:34:12) answer to me was okay. (01:34:16) >> See, I mean the alien guy. You (01:34:18) understand me at this point? (01:34:19) >> This is 1984. (01:34:20) >> Yeah. And Howard K. Smith. Remember the (01:34:24) sports announcer? I think was it was it (01:34:25) Howard K. Smith? Heard how? No, Howard. (01:34:28) He was with Howard Kith. How? No, he was (01:34:30) with uh Wide World of Sports. (01:34:33) >> Okay. (01:34:34) >> And he kept saying, "This is going to be (01:34:37) an amazing night for you." And I said, (01:34:40) "Yeah, okay." Not knowing what this was (01:34:42) going to be. And there was a kid that (01:34:45) was backstage and he said, "Oh my god, (01:34:48) this is going to be the biggest night (01:34:49) ever." You know who that kid was? Cuba (01:34:51) Gooding Jr. (01:34:52) >> Wow. (01:34:53) >> He was one of the dancers. (01:34:55) >> Wow. (01:34:56) >> And from that moment on, (01:35:00) I kept thinking, "What's going to (01:35:01) happen?" I said, "Here's what I want you (01:35:03) to do. (01:35:05) They're not looking at me. Your parents (01:35:07) are looking for you. So, get a signal. (01:35:10) Give them something where you wave your (01:35:12) hand so they'll know that that's you." (01:35:14) But the truth of that was that was one (01:35:16) of those interesting moments in time (01:35:20) where the world was watching and it was (01:35:22) no other way to happen. It I woke up the (01:35:25) next morning, drove down the street, I (01:35:28) could be five cars back from the traffic (01:35:30) light and somebody passed and go, "Hey, (01:35:33) Lionel Richie all night long. L Richie (01:35:36) all night long. Hey, it's Lionel Richie (01:35:37) all night long." Oh god, what just (01:35:40) happened? (01:35:40) >> Did you get your windows tinted? (01:35:41) >> I got everything tinted, babe. I I was (01:35:44) wearing tents. What you talking about? (01:35:47) >> That might be the biggest audience (01:35:50) anyone has ever performed for ever. If (01:35:52) you think about it, (01:35:52) >> without dying, of course. I mean, yeah. (01:35:55) I mean, it's I don't know what that was, (01:35:58) but it freaked me out because (01:36:03) I went from slightly invisible (01:36:07) to fully visible (01:36:11) anywhere. (01:36:13) My friend got married. I kept saying to (01:36:16) him, "You don't want me at your (01:36:17) wedding." He said, "No, no, no. You have (01:36:19) to come to the wedding." I said, "You (01:36:21) don't want me at your wedding." Here's (01:36:23) what happened. I decided to go. (01:36:26) Here's there he is walking down the (01:36:27) aisle. There he is saying I do. And (01:36:30) there he is walking out with his lovely (01:36:32) bride. Every other picture after that is (01:36:35) his mother-in-law with me, his family (01:36:37) with me. He's no longer in the wedding, (01:36:41) >> right? (01:36:41) >> Every picture was me in his wedding (01:36:44) book. And I said, "You don't want me at (01:36:46) your funeral. (01:36:49) Nobody's going to ever know you left. (01:36:53) It's not going to happen. (01:36:54) >> What was that like for you like (01:36:56) psychologically that that giant shift? (01:36:58) Was that hard to manage? (01:36:59) >> Pain in the ass. (01:37:00) >> Yeah. (01:37:01) >> For the first couple of 10 years, (01:37:06) you know, you got to get used to this. I (01:37:08) mean, you know, and and and also you (01:37:09) have to understand it becomes an (01:37:10) annoyance to your friends. (01:37:12) >> Hey, Lionel, let's go down to the bar (01:37:14) and get a drink. (01:37:15) >> Very simple. That's a You've been doing (01:37:16) that for their whole life, (01:37:18) >> right? (01:37:18) >> No. Uh you go down to the bar, the bar (01:37:20) turns around. (01:37:22) >> Yeah. (01:37:22) >> No. So now your friends become security (01:37:24) officers, (01:37:25) >> right? (01:37:26) >> You follow me? Okay. This is not cool, (01:37:28) >> right? (01:37:28) >> You know, and so (01:37:31) yeah, it becomes a little bit of a (01:37:32) hassle. So if you want to have your (01:37:35) friends, you either have to bring them (01:37:36) up to your hotel thing or you bring them (01:37:39) over to the house, (01:37:40) >> right? (01:37:40) >> There's no hanging out, (01:37:42) >> right? (01:37:43) >> You know, it's not going to happen that (01:37:44) way. And again, it's (01:37:47) you get used to it over time. (01:37:49) Uh, (01:37:49) >> did it [ __ ] with you psychologically? (01:37:51) >> Hell yeah. Are you kidding me, man? I (01:37:52) mean, (01:37:53) >> because a person relies on the (01:37:55) perspective that they get from (01:37:56) interacting with people. If the majority (01:37:58) of your interactions are bizarre, (01:38:01) >> and then finally one day you say, "Okay, (01:38:05) you walk into the room, (01:38:08) prepare to talk to the room, (01:38:10) >> right? Just accept that this is what it (01:38:12) is." (01:38:12) >> Muhammad Ali said it correctly. We had (01:38:15) lunch one afternoon in New York and um (01:38:20) it's time for it to be over. And as we (01:38:22) were having lunch, there are people (01:38:24) coming up to the glass looking in. Oh, (01:38:26) there's Muhammad. There's there's (01:38:27) Muhammad. There's Lionel. There's (01:38:29) Muhammad. There's Lion. Muhammad. Okay, (01:38:31) it's time for us to go. (01:38:32) >> And my security had me and I'm ready to (01:38:34) go. I said, "Where's your security?" "Uh (01:38:37) uh (01:38:39) Muhammad." He said, "Well, I don't need (01:38:40) any security." I said, "What do you mean (01:38:42) you don't need security?" They said, (01:38:43) "There's tons of people out there." He (01:38:44) said, "No, no, no, no, no. They'll take (01:38:46) care of me." (01:38:47) >> And he walks out the door. And (01:38:49) everybody's going, "Get back. Get back. (01:38:50) Get back. It's Muhammad." In other (01:38:53) words, you you (01:38:56) neutralize the room. You can either make (01:38:58) it a frenzy. (01:39:00) >> Yeah. (01:39:01) >> Or you can That's what Michael uh God (01:39:03) bless him. He couldn't get that in his (01:39:04) head, but he couldn't. Even if he tried (01:39:07) to do that, his whole persona was the (01:39:10) frenzy. (01:39:10) >> Yes. He has to have the frenzy otherwise (01:39:13) that's not Michael, (01:39:14) >> right? (01:39:14) >> You know, so I I just kind of got to the (01:39:16) point where you go into that zen mode (01:39:18) and how do I get across the airport? (01:39:21) >> It's only one way. You got to walk (01:39:22) across the difference in you and Michael (01:39:24) though was like you had a normal life (01:39:27) for a long time and then became an (01:39:29) artist and then I knew how to navigate. (01:39:31) You got a slow drip in the initial days. (01:39:34) >> He had the explosion. (01:39:35) >> The explosion that he got was like like (01:39:37) I said unlike anything anybody had ever (01:39:39) seen before. I don't I can't imagine how (01:39:41) he could diffuse a crowd. Like it's not (01:39:43) even possible. They would swarm him. (01:39:45) >> Never was going to happen. (01:39:46) >> No. Never. (01:39:47) >> The thing about Muhammad Ali too, he was (01:39:48) like one of the rare people that was (01:39:52) loved by almost all humans. Absolutely. (01:39:55) >> Especially after everyone realized he (01:39:57) was right about the Vietnam War. And (01:40:00) then he returns three years later and (01:40:02) then, you know, he makes his way to the (01:40:04) title again and then the He was so (01:40:08) loved. He was so loved and a beautiful (01:40:12) person. I mean, what I (01:40:14) And again, (01:40:16) trauma. I mean, when you see him out in (01:40:20) public, he was Mr. Chopz, but he was (01:40:24) carrying a lot. He was carrying his (01:40:27) belief. He was carrying his (01:40:29) his growth, losing the family, gaining (01:40:33) another family, still being the icon. I (01:40:35) mean, think about that. You know, is he (01:40:37) going to win? Is he going to lose? With (01:40:39) me, I just got to sing all night long (01:40:41) again. (01:40:42) >> But him, he's got to win again. (01:40:44) >> And he knows he's starting to get brain (01:40:46) damage. (01:40:46) >> There we go. There we go. (01:40:47) >> He knows it. (01:40:48) >> There's no ifs or buts about it. By the (01:40:50) time he gets past Frasier in the first (01:40:52) fight and then (01:40:54) >> Foreman, just the Foreman fight alone, (01:40:56) Ernie Shavers, (01:40:57) >> every every hit, (01:40:58) >> every hit, (01:40:59) >> every hit. (01:41:00) >> And then later in his career, it gets (01:41:01) sad. (01:41:02) >> Yeah. Yeah. It's just like there's very (01:41:04) few people that transcend whatever sport (01:41:06) they are and become like one of the key (01:41:09) features of culture. (01:41:10) >> Yeah, he was magical. Magical. But (01:41:15) >> for me, he was the hero. (01:41:17) >> Yeah. (01:41:17) >> Because this is a guy (01:41:20) who found his freedom. (01:41:23) When you can walk out and go, I'm going (01:41:26) to speak my truth and I don't care. Now (01:41:29) this is back in the days when Hoover was (01:41:31) Hoover and the you know the (01:41:32) investigations where the investigations (01:41:34) that's heavy man I mean this is not this (01:41:37) is life and death situations and and for (01:41:39) him to accept his role as the educator (01:41:45) and also the the beacon of hope you know (01:41:49) when I got that in in my book when that (01:41:51) when that man came up to me and said you (01:41:53) must survive because you're our beacon (01:41:56) of hope (01:41:58) >> wow I I there's a moment in time when (01:42:01) you realize there is a responsibility (01:42:03) here (01:42:05) and whether you wanted to be the teacher (01:42:06) or not there folks looking at you (01:42:08) besides the folks in Tuskegee. (01:42:10) >> Yeah. And you've got something to share (01:42:12) and that something is very valuable. (01:42:16) When someone can hear wise words from (01:42:17) someone they love and respect it it (01:42:20) it'll shift your perspective in life (01:42:22) >> and that that's such a gift that you (01:42:25) could give people. But it doesn't come I (01:42:27) I keep trying to tell Bill every day. It (01:42:29) doesn't come with the word flawless. (01:42:32) >> Of course, (01:42:32) >> it comes with flaws. How did you (01:42:35) >> How did you learn that? (01:42:38) >> You put your foot in the [ __ ] (01:42:39) >> Yeah. (01:42:42) >> I mean, you understand. How do you know (01:42:43) that? (01:42:44) >> And and the only way to know it, the (01:42:46) only way to understand it, (01:42:49) >> you know what you don't want to do is (01:42:50) have someone describe to you life (01:42:53) >> because they read it, (01:42:54) >> right? I want to know about life that (01:42:56) you lived it. Now that's the person I'm (01:42:58) taking my advice from. (01:42:59) >> Oh, 100%. Yeah. Like someone teaching (01:43:02) you music that's never written a song. (01:43:03) Like that's crazy. Unless they're Rick (01:43:05) Rubin. (01:43:06) >> Lester Rick Rubin. And by the way, by (01:43:08) the way, by the way, you said that's a (01:43:11) strange brother, boy. I mean, I got (01:43:13) chills when you called his name. No, (01:43:15) man. I can hear. (01:43:17) >> He's the real deal. That's the real (01:43:19) deal. (01:43:20) >> So love him. (01:43:21) >> He's the real deal. That's a real deal. (01:43:23) That's a real That's a real That's a (01:43:25) real experience. (01:43:25) >> I went to Rick's house one day and I (01:43:27) said, "Oh man, this is going to be (01:43:29) great." He's out by the beach. We walked (01:43:30) in and I said he said, "Sit right over (01:43:32) there." (01:43:34) >> Rick, it's only one (01:43:37) uh bean bag chair on the floor. That's (01:43:41) it. That's the whole living room. And I (01:43:44) said, (01:43:46) "Where's the living room?" (01:43:48) Or, "There's the terrace off of his (01:43:51) bedroom." Great. He has the doors the (01:43:53) dare the doors open off onto his (01:43:56) terrace. (01:43:57) >> Yeah. (01:43:58) >> They forgot to put the terrace out (01:43:59) there. So So open windows. (01:44:02) >> I said (01:44:04) there's no terrorists. (01:44:06) >> I think that's what he wants. (01:44:07) >> That's exactly what he wants. (01:44:09) >> He wants things off. (01:44:10) >> Ah man. (01:44:10) >> And I love him. You're such a genius. (01:44:12) >> He's I love him. I (01:44:13) >> I love him to death. (01:44:14) >> Oh god. (01:44:15) >> He sends me the wackiest text, too. (01:44:19) >> Well, he ain't going to change. He goes (01:44:20) down rabbit holes. Woo. But he's (01:44:23) awesome. But there's people like him, (01:44:25) right, that just have some special gift (01:44:28) of they just hear things. (01:44:30) >> But that's the point. (01:44:31) >> Yeah. (01:44:32) >> That's that's the point in in life. In (01:44:35) life, if you have a chance to be around (01:44:37) someone that's authentic unto themselves (01:44:41) at the same time they're receiving. (01:44:43) >> It's not just songwriting, right? (01:44:45) >> You know, there are people who are (01:44:46) receiving messages and you go, "Do me a (01:44:49) favor. just sit down and tell me the (01:44:51) story. (01:44:52) >> Well, authors all talk about that. (01:44:54) >> I I love I love I mean, for example, (01:44:56) every time I go to Atlanta, Georgia, (01:44:59) who's backstage, (01:45:01) greatest fan, greatest mentor ever, Andy (01:45:03) Young. (01:45:04) >> Oh, (01:45:04) >> okay. Did he see it? He saw it all. Did (01:45:08) he miss anything? Nothing. And he sits (01:45:11) back there. I've sometimes have been 15, (01:45:14) 20 minutes late to go on stage. Why? (01:45:16) Keep talking. (01:45:18) Keep talking, Andy. (01:45:19) >> You follow me? Yeah. (01:45:21) >> He's just spewing (01:45:24) the message. (01:45:26) And again, the answer becomes, (01:45:28) >> hm, (01:45:30) >> how do you feel about where we are now? (01:45:32) I'm optimistic. Wow, that's really (01:45:35) heavy. You know what I'm saying? And and (01:45:38) so I I just sit as a student, and that's (01:45:41) what happens in life. If you have a (01:45:43) chance, who comes backstage to my shows? (01:45:47) Everybody. (01:45:48) And they sit there and I have a chance (01:45:50) to find out, hm. Now, they say you're (01:45:54) this person and the answer is no, (01:45:56) they're not. (01:45:58) Everybody has a front, (01:46:00) >> right, (01:46:00) >> and a back, (01:46:01) >> especially a public narrative. (01:46:03) >> You understand? (01:46:03) >> If you don't know them personally, (01:46:04) >> you don't know them personally. And so (01:46:06) with me, I have found the greatest parts (01:46:08) in the world of this whole story (01:46:10) >> is that they come as fans, everybody. (01:46:13) And that's the part that really makes me (01:46:16) feel really great about traveling around (01:46:18) the world because it it it gives (01:46:22) remember now I know the world of the (01:46:26) world. A lot of people know Detroit or (01:46:30) they know America, but they don't know (01:46:33) Europe or they don't know Asia or they (01:46:37) Joe, I'm 200 years old. (01:46:40) I scratched on everything. But the point (01:46:43) is it's when I come home to write a (01:46:46) song, I don't write a song based on is (01:46:48) it going to be a song that can identify (01:46:51) to America only. I write a song that the (01:46:55) world will understand (01:46:56) >> because you've been to the world. (01:46:57) >> I've been to the world. (01:46:59) >> Yeah. (01:46:59) >> So when I came home to write all night (01:47:01) long, everybody looked at me like, "You (01:47:03) out of your freaking mind is freaking (01:47:05) calypso. Ain't no calypso music on the (01:47:07) radio." I said, "There's a thing called (01:47:09) world beat." (01:47:11) That's why every gangster, every (01:47:13) politician, every school teacher, (01:47:16) everybody when you go on vacation, what (01:47:18) do you hear? (01:47:23) It's called the world beat. (01:47:26) >> So when I play the world beat on (01:47:28) anything, (01:47:30) you automatically feel familiar, (01:47:32) >> right? (01:47:33) >> But now try to play that in the middle (01:47:35) of funk. (01:47:36) Try to play that. Yo, (01:47:40) what is Lyle doing? You know, but the (01:47:42) point is, (01:47:43) >> you know, it's I when you travel the (01:47:45) world and you come back home and you put (01:47:47) a song out, (01:47:48) it's going to resonate to the world and (01:47:52) as time goes on, it will resonate to (01:47:54) America. (01:47:55) >> But I I do from the world back in (01:47:57) certain cases. (01:47:58) >> Oh yeah. (01:48:00) >> Just based on your life experiences. (01:48:02) >> Yeah. (01:48:02) >> No, that's amazing. Yeah. (01:48:03) >> But it's like a lot of great artists (01:48:05) have done that like broke out and where (01:48:08) people are like, "What are you doing?" (01:48:10) >> Exactly. Why are you doing something (01:48:11) that's different than something that's (01:48:12) been insanely successful? Why would you (01:48:15) mess with the formula? (01:48:16) >> Lionel Rich's story. Lionel Richard (01:48:18) crossed over and can't get black. (01:48:20) >> Oh, (01:48:21) >> you got me. (01:48:22) >> Okay. (01:48:23) >> So, in other words, what? Wait a minute. (01:48:25) Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Three (01:48:26) times a lady. Yo, (01:48:28) >> right. (01:48:28) >> That's a W. Uh, little brother, (01:48:31) >> right? (01:48:32) >> What? What? What? What? What you doing, (01:48:34) man? You coping out? (01:48:36) >> And the answer is, "No, no, no. I'm not (01:48:37) coping out." You know, but my answer was (01:48:40) very clear. If Mozart were black, would (01:48:43) he be Mozart? (01:48:44) No. Cuz he wouldn't be funky enough (01:48:50) and you wouldn't have played him. Also, (01:48:53) why would anybody challenge (01:48:55) authenticity? If someone has an (01:48:57) authentic idea, it's it's who they are (01:49:00) at this moment. This idea that you're (01:49:02) supposed to stay in this box. (01:49:03) >> Well, know what that's called now? (01:49:05) >> What? (01:49:05) >> An algorithm. (01:49:06) >> Okay. Yeah. follow me. So, I basically (01:49:09) everyone keeps thinking, "Oh, man, it's (01:49:12) going to take over." No, it won't. (01:49:14) >> And hopefully, if you're smart enough (01:49:16) >> and get out of the way of the of this (01:49:19) regurgitating over and over again the (01:49:21) same goddamn song, (01:49:23) >> right? (01:49:23) >> And go over here. It's got to be (01:49:25) somebody that goes, (01:49:26) >> I want to say this, (01:49:28) >> right? (01:49:28) >> And and and no AI can tell you that (01:49:31) that's going to what's that word? Touch (01:49:33) people. (01:49:35) >> Yeah. You got to have something that (01:49:37) touches someone. (01:49:38) >> Yes, (01:49:39) >> it can rhyme all day long, (01:49:41) >> right? (01:49:41) >> But does it touch you? (01:49:43) >> Right. (01:49:44) >> That's coming from something else that's (01:49:46) going to be the new thing. And we've got (01:49:49) to allow the a place where the new thing (01:49:52) can come through. (01:49:53) >> Yes. (01:49:53) >> Cuz otherwise it will become it gets to (01:49:55) be a hum, (01:49:56) >> right? (01:49:56) >> And that's when you hear we only play 98 (01:49:58) beats a minute. Well, you know what (01:50:00) happens on the fifth song? You turn the (01:50:03) channel. (01:50:04) First song, (01:50:07) second song, (01:50:10) third song, (01:50:12) fourth song. Turn the channel. (01:50:15) >> It's formula (01:50:16) >> because you want to hear something that (01:50:18) goes. (01:50:23) >> That's the trick. (01:50:25) >> Yeah. (01:50:25) >> Change up the ear. (01:50:27) >> Yeah. (01:50:27) >> But someone said, "Let's just keep it (01:50:29) all the same." So now I have to ask the (01:50:31) question, (01:50:32) >> this is the business people, right? (01:50:33) >> Yes. These are people who don't write (01:50:35) songs, (01:50:36) >> right? Of course. (01:50:36) >> I mean, that's like going to a concert (01:50:38) and the first song is (01:50:40) >> and the second song is and the third (01:50:42) song you go, uh, where are we going to (01:50:43) eat? (01:50:44) >> Right. (01:50:44) >> Okay. It's something's got to switch up. (01:50:46) The lights have to change. Something has (01:50:48) to happen, right? (01:50:49) >> Otherwise, it becomes monotonous. Thank (01:50:52) you. (01:50:52) >> Yeah. Yeah. That struggle between the (01:50:57) creatives and the money people always (01:50:58) exists. I'm telling you, it used to be (01:51:01) wonderful because the creative people (01:51:03) were the guys who owned (01:51:05) >> the labels, (01:51:06) >> right? (01:51:06) >> When did it switch? (01:51:08) >> Uh when they started consolidating all (01:51:10) the In other words, they started buying (01:51:11) up (01:51:12) >> Mottown and then they bought up&M and (01:51:14) then they bought up Mercury and then (01:51:16) they bought up Polygram. Now you've got (01:51:18) this big giant. Okay, so it's Warner (01:51:20) Brothers, Sony, Universal. (01:51:23) We got them all. And then the (01:51:26) independence and then the da da da. And (01:51:28) then it became one big (01:51:30) >> just a machine. (01:51:31) >> One big indigestion. (01:51:33) >> Yeah. A bunch of people who just want to (01:51:34) make money and they don't make music. (01:51:36) >> Yeah. And and then the one of the guy (01:51:38) says, "I know how to sell uh uh uh um I (01:51:41) know how to sell uh uh records lot. I I (01:51:44) sold 18 billion (01:51:47) hamburgers before I came here. What the (01:51:50) freak are you talking about? What the (01:51:52) [ __ ] businessman. I'm a businessman. (01:51:54) Ly, (01:51:55) >> you think it's complicated? (01:51:56) >> Now, can you give me your album in the (01:51:58) third quarter? (01:51:59) >> Oh god. (01:52:00) >> And I'm going I I normally give my album (01:52:02) when I finish it. (01:52:04) >> Now, what are you talking about? (01:52:05) >> Oh god. (01:52:05) >> Third quarter means what? (01:52:07) >> Oh no. (01:52:08) >> Can we have it in the first quarter? If (01:52:09) we can have it in the first quarter, (01:52:10) it'll be fine. (01:52:11) >> Did you see Was this a slow thing or did (01:52:14) it just become overwhelming at a certain (01:52:16) point in time? Like when did they get (01:52:17) consolidate? The most irritating part of (01:52:20) it was you start an album and by the (01:52:23) time you finish the album, they sold the (01:52:26) company. (01:52:27) >> Oh god. (01:52:27) >> And the people who started the album (01:52:29) with you are no longer there. (01:52:31) >> So it's a new group of people that's (01:52:33) receiving the album that has no idea (01:52:35) that you've been working on the album in (01:52:36) the first place. (01:52:37) >> Oh god. (01:52:37) >> And then what label did they put that (01:52:39) on? Okay. They put Mottown over on (01:52:42) Mercury. And then they put Mottown (01:52:44) Mercury over on Polyador. Then they put (01:52:48) Now you're sitting there going, "Okay, (01:52:50) guys. Who do I belong to? Who do I (01:52:53) belong to? (01:52:54) >> Oh, no. (01:52:54) >> Oh, no. No. No. It went it went (01:52:58) it went so sideways that, you know, and (01:53:02) and then as we slowly get further (01:53:05) further down the road of (01:53:08) of lack of uh of communication, (01:53:12) half the time you go to another company, (01:53:14) they didn't know what the hell have you (01:53:15) done, you know? They go, "Okay, now you (01:53:18) know I've got a hip-hop group that'll (01:53:20) love I got a writer that can write with (01:53:21) you, Lionel. (01:53:22) >> Who Who you Who you talking to?" I mean, (01:53:25) you know what I'm saying? I mean, you (01:53:27) know, we got a writer that can write (01:53:28) with you. I don't need a writer to write (01:53:30) with me. What are you talking about? I I (01:53:31) don't I got my own. What? That's like (01:53:33) having somebody say, "I got a guy that (01:53:35) can help Stevie." (01:53:37) >> It's just imagine stage of your career. (01:53:41) Someone coming along and telling you how (01:53:42) to do it. (01:53:43) >> Yeah. Yeah. because they're ANR people (01:53:45) from the last label. (01:53:47) >> God. (01:53:47) >> And so you get up there and you go, "And (01:53:49) by the way, whatever person they tell (01:53:51) you they want you to write with, that's (01:53:53) the single." (01:53:55) >> Oh god. (01:53:55) >> So you go, "Okay, just hold on for a (01:53:57) minute. Everybody take a step back." The (01:54:00) worst thing, the worst thing I ever (01:54:01) heard in life one time was that the guy (01:54:04) said, "I've got a surprise for Stevie." (01:54:07) Um, he turned in his album and I got (01:54:09) I've forgotten the artist's name. I (01:54:10) can't think of it. I got them to remix (01:54:13) his album. (01:54:14) >> Oh, Jesus Christ. (01:54:16) >> Joe, you never heard from Stevie again (01:54:18) for 10 years. (01:54:20) >> Wow. (01:54:20) >> I mean, come on. I First of all, if you (01:54:22) know Stevie, (01:54:24) every (01:54:26) Okay, he knows where that is. (01:54:29) >> Yeah. (01:54:29) >> And you remixed it before you put out (01:54:32) the original. (01:54:36) >> Just imagine the gall to think you could (01:54:40) do it better. But then Stevie Wonder. (01:54:42) >> But that's what I'm saying. When you (01:54:44) when you bring in non (01:54:46) creative people (01:54:47) >> who are doing cocaine, (01:54:49) >> I I I didn't want to say that, but the (01:54:51) answer is a lot of it. A lot of blow. (01:54:53) >> They're doing cocaine. So they have some (01:54:54) really unnecessary confidence, (01:54:56) >> right? And again, you have to understand (01:54:58) something. They know. (01:55:00) They know because why do they know? (01:55:04) Because they said so. And what I've (01:55:06) learned is there are two types of (01:55:09) artist. Creative artist and created (01:55:13) artist. (01:55:15) >> Okay? And these people are specialized (01:55:17) in creating artist. But if you happen to (01:55:21) be talking to a creative artist, shut (01:55:24) the [ __ ] up. (01:55:26) >> Yeah. Shut the [ __ ] up. (01:55:26) >> Shut the [ __ ] up. Leave me alone. (01:55:28) >> Shut the [ __ ] up. (01:55:29) >> Yeah. Could you imagine a group of those (01:55:30) people and Prince brings them head (01:55:33) and says, "This is my song." They were (01:55:35) like, "Are you out of your [ __ ] (01:55:36) mind?" (01:55:36) >> And by the way, they did. (01:55:39) >> They did. And you know what he said? (01:55:41) "Fuck you." (01:55:43) >> But you know what I'm saying? Like (01:55:44) that's one of those songs where he's (01:55:46) like, (01:55:46) >> "It's so great and so authentic and so (01:55:49) insane and nobody had heard anything (01:55:51) like that before." (01:55:52) >> That's That's what I'm saying. (01:55:53) >> Yeah. You or Madonna Madonna for the (01:55:55) Pepsi commercial. You know what he gave (01:55:58) what she gave him for the Pepsi (01:55:59) commercial? Like a prayer, (01:56:01) >> right? (01:56:02) >> Right. black man on the cross with (01:56:05) Madonna. (01:56:07) That's the commercial she gave him, (01:56:09) >> right? (01:56:10) >> And I They said, "This is disastrous." I (01:56:12) said, "It's Madonna. What were you (01:56:14) thinking you were going to get?" (01:56:15) >> What did you think? (01:56:16) >> What did you think you were going to (01:56:17) get? She's giving him a real name. (01:56:21) >> But I mean, you see what I'm saying? But (01:56:22) yet, was the record successful? Hell (01:56:25) yeah. (01:56:25) >> Huge. (01:56:26) >> That's what I'm saying. (01:56:27) >> Massive. (01:56:27) >> Get out of the way. (01:56:29) >> Yeah. Get out of the way. (01:56:30) >> Bob Dylan, get out of the way. Yeah. But (01:56:33) people can't figure that out if they're (01:56:34) not creative people. They really (01:56:36) genuinely think that they know better, (01:56:38) >> but they want control. Yes. (01:56:39) >> And the answer to it is, (01:56:41) >> I would rather have a company full of (01:56:44) outofcontrol artist (01:56:46) than a bunch of control pencil pushers (01:56:49) and accountants that know nothing about (01:56:53) people and what they like or what could (01:56:56) titillate their sensibilities. (01:56:58) >> Yes. (01:56:58) >> Okay. It's got to be somebody that knows (01:57:00) how to Well, are they going to be in (01:57:02) clubs all night? No. But we are. Are (01:57:05) they going to travel around the world to (01:57:07) festivals and everything? No, they're (01:57:08) not going to be there, but we are. (01:57:11) >> Right. (01:57:11) >> So, wouldn't you trust us when we come (01:57:13) back home and say, "Okay, I got the (01:57:15) shit." It's just they think they know (01:57:18) better and they have the money and they (01:57:20) have the power and they want to keep (01:57:22) control. And one of the things that they (01:57:23) really do enjoy controlling is (01:57:24) controlling people that can do things (01:57:26) that they can't do. (01:57:26) >> Ah, very true. Yeah. (01:57:28) >> And that's the And by the way, they (01:57:30) know. (01:57:30) >> Yeah. (01:57:31) >> And they'll come up to you and what they (01:57:33) call is giving you advice. You know what (01:57:36) it's called to me? Insulting, (01:57:38) >> right? (01:57:39) >> Yeah. (01:57:40) >> It's insulting. (01:57:41) >> The giving you advice is just so it's (01:57:43) just so crazy. Someone who doesn't do it (01:57:45) giving you advice on how to do it. (01:57:46) >> You want to hear how that sounds, (01:57:48) Lionel? If I were you, (01:57:50) >> and you know what I say back quieter to (01:57:51) myself? But you're not. (01:57:53) >> But you're not. (01:57:54) >> But you're not. If I were you, if you (01:57:56) were if you were me, you would be (01:57:57) listening to you going, "What is this (01:57:59) [ __ ] idiot saying?" (01:58:00) >> If I came back to you, Mr. You know, and (01:58:03) I'd say, "Hey, if I were you, I would do (01:58:05) this with the company." And you look at (01:58:07) me and go, "Kid, you don't know what (01:58:08) you're talking about." And that's the (01:58:11) right answer, (01:58:11) >> right? (01:58:12) >> But if you're talking to an artist, (01:58:14) >> right, (01:58:14) >> by the way, we could run the company (01:58:19) if you let us. (01:58:20) >> Yeah. (01:58:21) >> But the point is, it's too late. (01:58:23) Everybody knows everything now. And so (01:58:26) that's the point. It's called the It's (01:58:27) called the Peter principle. Everyone (01:58:29) elevates their themselves to their level (01:58:31) of incompetence. (01:58:33) And now that you're who you are, you've (01:58:36) now null and board yourself and the (01:58:37) industry, whatever it is we're into, (01:58:39) you've done it. It's done. Cooked. So my (01:58:42) point now is we've got a world now of (01:58:44) specialist (01:58:45) that knows nothing about the actual (01:58:48) doing it, (01:58:49) >> right? is a world that is crazy that and (01:58:53) they have so much power and control over (01:58:55) artists and they have been successful in (01:58:58) creating an artist (01:58:59) >> but not even but not even artist (01:59:02) everybody I mean in other words they (01:59:05) have people who have never been in a (01:59:08) successful marriage longer than 12 weeks (01:59:11) giving you advice on marriage (01:59:13) >> it's true (01:59:14) >> think about this you know if I were you (01:59:17) do this my answer is if you ever want to (01:59:20) find out about anything. Don't ask (01:59:22) anybody young. Ask old people. They've (01:59:26) been through the blitz of World War II. (01:59:29) They've been through this the (01:59:30) depression. They've been through the (01:59:32) crisis. Don't ask anybody young. Why? (01:59:35) Because if it comes on the phone, (01:59:38) >> you don't know anything. (01:59:40) If you want some real good advice, when (01:59:42) I got to Mottown, who did I ask first? (01:59:46) Marvin. (01:59:47) >> Right. (01:59:48) >> You think he knows? He knows, (01:59:50) >> crazy as he can be, but it doesn't (01:59:51) matter, (01:59:52) >> right? (01:59:52) >> He was the creative killer. Who do I ask (01:59:56) about record business? Barry Ahmed (01:59:58) Erdigan. (01:59:59) >> Yeah. (02:00:00) >> Come on, guys. These guys were the most (02:00:03) incredible people on the planet. And so (02:00:06) what I'm saying to you is right now (02:00:07) we're taking advice from people who just (02:00:09) graduated from nothing, (02:00:12) >> right? (02:00:13) >> What are you coming from? So that's (02:00:15) where I I only I just find it very (02:00:18) interesting that before I ask the (02:00:20) question of anything, I go, "How did you (02:00:24) do it first?" (02:00:26) And you say, "Well, this is my first (02:00:28) time doing it. Thank you. I'll I'll talk (02:00:31) to you later." (02:00:33) It's just bizarre that the the industry (02:00:37) needs people like that. It's just a bad (02:00:40) setup. It's a bad set. It's like it (02:00:42) doesn't maximize creative output. It (02:00:45) gets in the way. (02:00:47) >> Well, let me tell you, it's we're so far (02:00:49) down the road now because (02:00:52) what happens now is it it all became (02:00:55) legitimate when I say that. Not that I (02:00:58) was a a a nice uh a nice fan of of (02:01:04) gangsters, but but it's something (02:01:08) rewarding about giving someone a chance (02:01:12) to (02:01:14) play. (02:01:16) Here's some money. Go play. Now, what's (02:01:19) going to happen is he's either going to (02:01:20) win (02:01:22) or you're going to lose. But if you win, (02:01:24) you might get a group called the (02:01:25) Beatles. If you win, you might get a (02:01:28) group out of San Francisco called Sly (02:01:30) the Stones. If you win, you might get a (02:01:32) group called the Temptations. If you (02:01:35) win, you might get Diana Ross. If you (02:01:38) win, you might get a Taylor Swift. You (02:01:40) know what I'm saying? In other words, (02:01:42) just just let the artist go, (02:01:46) >> right? (02:01:46) >> Let them go. And that goes with (02:01:49) everything. You know, there's there's (02:01:50) people who, like I said, in in school, (02:01:53) they're incredible academically. they (02:01:56) can recite to you everything that's ever (02:01:58) happened and will give you every you (02:02:00) know backup to that now that we have (02:02:02) chat GPT and it's not not so much the (02:02:05) same but but the point is and then there (02:02:07) are those that go I wrote a poem I'd (02:02:10) like you to hear it or I read a book I (02:02:13) want you to hear about it I have an idea (02:02:16) about (02:02:18) going to Mars (02:02:20) what (02:02:23) I mean you know you just I mean the (02:02:25) first thing is before you become a (02:02:27) genius, (02:02:28) you have to take the responsibility of (02:02:31) being an absolute idiot to everybody (02:02:33) around you. An idiot is when you came up (02:02:36) with your first idea. Lionel, where do (02:02:38) you hear all your songs from? I hear him (02:02:40) from the other side. (02:02:42) Lionel's an idiot. (02:02:44) Where did I say that? On a university (02:02:47) campus. (02:02:49) Now, when the world finally becomes (02:02:52) attuned to your frequency, (02:02:55) oh my god, you hear the word genius. The (02:02:57) answer is no. I'm still the idiot that (02:02:59) suggested it from the beginning. (02:03:02) >> Well, I think if you said that today (02:03:03) though, don't you think more people (02:03:05) would be inclined to listen to you (02:03:06) saying the songs, the ideas come from (02:03:09) the other side? (02:03:09) >> But now, yes. (02:03:11) >> But now, yes. Because I can explain to (02:03:13) them (02:03:15) because why? They trust me now. But even (02:03:18) if they didn't know you now, I think (02:03:19) that idea is more (02:03:21) >> Well, yes. Yeah. Now, yes, you're right. (02:03:23) Because now we've opened that channel up (02:03:24) now to where people can talk like that. (02:03:26) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. (02:03:28) >> But back then, (02:03:30) >> 197069, (02:03:33) 68, (02:03:33) >> right? (02:03:34) >> Talking like that means Lionel is on (02:03:36) either LSD (02:03:40) >> or some kind of tab. He's on some kind (02:03:42) of tab. Yeah. But he's definitely not in (02:03:44) his right mind. (02:03:45) >> Yeah. Or he's mentally unwell. that just (02:03:47) aids in his brilliance. But he's crazy. (02:03:50) A genius maniac. (02:03:52) >> Yeah. (02:03:53) >> But he won't be here long, (02:03:54) >> right? That's like Kanye West. (02:03:56) >> Yeah. We'll get (02:03:57) >> genius maniac. (02:03:58) >> We'll get him to rehab as soon as (02:04:00) possible. (02:04:01) >> Right. Right. (02:04:02) >> Yeah. (02:04:02) >> I mean, that's what they were doing a (02:04:04) lot of Kanye's career, just trying to (02:04:06) manage his insanity that also led to (02:04:08) this insane creative output. (02:04:10) >> Yeah. I mean, I I'll be honest with you. (02:04:11) Uh Richard Prior, I use this as my (02:04:14) perfect example. I mean, I I I would (02:04:18) just wait for his next what's coming out (02:04:20) of his mouth, (02:04:20) >> right? (02:04:21) >> And then one day he sobered up (02:04:25) and couldn't get funny. (02:04:27) >> And I kept thinking, what just happened? (02:04:29) Well, he went to rehab. Well, yeah, I (02:04:32) know, but where's the (02:04:34) >> right (02:04:35) >> where's your edge? (02:04:36) >> Yeah. (02:04:36) >> You know, so you know, some there's a (02:04:39) word for it. There's a phrase for it (02:04:40) where you learn your craft under the (02:04:42) influence of (02:04:45) And if you happen to not know how you (02:04:47) got there off of the influence that when (02:04:50) you finally get off of it, you don't (02:04:52) know how to get back to it. (02:04:54) >> Yeah. (02:04:54) >> Unless you go back on it. (02:04:56) >> Well, even if you do, it's a different (02:04:59) place. (02:05:00) >> Like my one of my favorite examples of (02:05:02) this is Stephen King. (02:05:04) >> I love early Stephen King. If you (02:05:07) listen, I mean, if you read rather (02:05:10) The Shining, (02:05:12) Tommy Knockers, I mean, Misery, (02:05:16) >> Kujo, Pet Cemetery, but this was (02:05:19) cocaine, snorting, beer, drinking, out (02:05:22) of his [ __ ] mind. (02:05:23) >> Like, he he wrote entire books and (02:05:26) doesn't remember anything about writing (02:05:28) them. I (02:05:30) to be in their presence (02:05:34) is one of the most incredible things (02:05:36) you'll ever see and hear and experience (02:05:38) in your life. Again, I got to the point (02:05:41) where if I was just allowed in the room. (02:05:45) remember now. I mean, I was allowed in (02:05:47) the room when Marvin and and Stevies and (02:05:54) God, I could (02:05:55) >> Did you grasp that historically at the (02:05:57) time? Like what that meant? (02:05:59) >> I couldn't breathe. Did I grasp it? I (02:06:02) couldn't breathe. (02:06:03) >> Wow. (02:06:04) >> I mean, do you know what this was? This (02:06:06) was the gift of life. I mean, that's (02:06:11) Barry Gordy, right? You know what Barry (02:06:14) Gordy was back in the day? God, he (02:06:18) existed on the moon somewhere. (02:06:21) You know, Holland Doia and Holland. (02:06:24) These were, you know, this is out there (02:06:26) in the moon. Artha Franklin and and (02:06:29) Armit Erdigan and uh King Curtis and (02:06:34) this this is the moon people, man. Sammy (02:06:37) Davis Jr., Sydney Poier. These are moon (02:06:40) people. and to have them sit in a room, (02:06:44) not in a seminar, in their living room (02:06:48) saying, "You know what? Let me tell you (02:06:49) a story about (02:06:51) [Music] (02:06:53) now." There's one part of me going, (02:06:54) "Mhm. Mhm." (02:06:57) And then there's another part of me (02:06:58) going, "Holy [ __ ] I'm sitting here (02:07:00) listening to freaking Barry Gord Sydney (02:07:04) Porty." You follow me? (02:07:05) >> Yeah. (02:07:06) >> How did I get in that room? So, another (02:07:08) title was going to be was fly on the (02:07:10) wall, but I just didn't want to be a (02:07:12) fly. But but the point is, I mean, I had (02:07:16) the opportunity one on one, (02:07:20) not in a TED talk, (02:07:21) >> right? (02:07:23) >> But one on-one with some of the greatest (02:07:26) people of our time. (02:07:27) >> How well did you know Richard Prior? (02:07:29) >> Oh my god, man. Richard was wonderful. I (02:07:32) mean, well, I mean, Paul Mooney, Richard (02:07:37) Prior, and um (02:07:39) >> I knew Mooney real well. (02:07:40) >> I mean, this was (02:07:42) again totally (02:07:45) out of his mind, totally funny, but more (02:07:49) importantly, totally in charge. I mean, (02:07:52) he knew his I saw his frustration (02:07:55) because they were trying to deal with (02:07:57) him commercially. (02:07:59) They discovered that maybe he might be (02:08:01) able to be on network television. (02:08:03) Wrong answer, you know, but he was so (02:08:08) gifted (02:08:10) in presenting (02:08:12) the street struggle (02:08:15) and you laughed about it. Miss Rudolph (02:08:18) was Miss Rudolph, man. I mean, when he (02:08:20) said Miss Rudolph, everybody knew what (02:08:21) you're talking about, you know? Or, you (02:08:23) know, they put me in jail for shooting (02:08:24) my car. (02:08:27) I mean I mean I mean you know but to (02:08:32) know him off (02:08:34) uh camera to know him off the stage you (02:08:38) know what I found a lot about my (02:08:41) comedian for instance you know there's a (02:08:43) to make things funny (02:08:46) you have to take dark things (02:08:49) and make them funny. (02:08:51) >> Yeah. But they stayed most of the time (02:08:53) in darkness. And Richard was in darkness (02:08:56) a lot of time. A lot of time of his (02:08:58) life. (02:09:00) >> Yeah. That was surprising to people. You (02:09:02) know, when you see a guy that's so funny (02:09:04) and so loved, you see assume his life (02:09:07) must be amazing. But he was struggling (02:09:09) all the time. (02:09:10) >> All the time. (02:09:11) >> I mean, he later revealed that, you (02:09:12) know, the story from uh Jojo Dancer, (02:09:15) your life is calling, which is like (02:09:16) loosely based around his life. Mhm. (02:09:19) >> He accidentally caught on fire. (02:09:21) >> Yeah. (02:09:22) >> But in real life, he set himself on (02:09:23) fire. (02:09:23) >> Of course he did. (02:09:24) >> Yeah. (02:09:24) >> Yeah. I mean, (02:09:28) >> the book the book that I just finished, (02:09:32) it's it's the struggle. Everyone keeps (02:09:34) saying, "What did you start off in the (02:09:35) rural south?" Forget the rural south. I (02:09:37) was struggling with myself, which is (02:09:40) what everybody struggles with. So the (02:09:43) answer is it it's not that I made it. (02:09:48) It's this who was I struggling with. (02:09:50) >> You were struggling with yourself (02:09:51) >> and all of us are struggling with (02:09:53) ourselves. (02:09:54) >> That's what made the book to me so (02:09:56) meaningful because people will walk back (02:09:58) to me and go Lionel I felt the same way. (02:10:00) Now you know what that's called in my (02:10:01) business? A hit record. (02:10:03) >> When you write a song and everybody (02:10:05) comes back to you and says, "Man, I was (02:10:06) feeling the same way." You got a hit (02:10:08) record. (02:10:09) >> Yeah. Well, when you can write in a book (02:10:11) vulnerability, when you can write in a (02:10:14) book fear, when you can write in a book, (02:10:16) I'm not sure. I wasn't sure. I was (02:10:19) scared. They go, (02:10:22) "How could you be scared?" And and do (02:10:25) all that. And the answer is step (02:10:27) forward. (02:10:28) >> Yeah. (02:10:29) >> Step forward. Scared to death. We're all (02:10:31) scared to death. Are you kidding me? You (02:10:34) know, we don't know what we're doing (02:10:35) from day to day. It's just we work it (02:10:37) out. (02:10:37) >> Yeah. (02:10:39) But it's not where we all this (02:10:41) confidence and crap. No, no, no, no. And (02:10:43) as time goes on, you kind of develop a (02:10:45) little Okay. And it's called filling out (02:10:48) your skin. As time goes on, you you get (02:10:50) a little bit more confident in the fact (02:10:52) that I kind of know what I'm doing. (02:10:53) >> Becoming a professional. (02:10:54) >> There you go. But for the beginning (02:10:56) stages of your life, what the hell (02:10:58) you're doing? (02:10:59) >> Come on. (02:10:59) >> Yeah. You can't. Yeah. Yeah, but it's (02:11:01) just very valuable for people to hear (02:11:03) that from someone that's very successful (02:11:06) >> because people just look at a guy like (02:11:08) you and go he's just Lionel Richie. I (02:11:11) mean, it's just it is what it is. You (02:11:13) know what I mean? Must be nice. (02:11:14) >> I know. (02:11:15) >> That's how they look at it. I know. (02:11:16) >> They don't think of, oh, that's a (02:11:18) bizarre path that a human being took (02:11:21) >> to superstardom. It's a strange (02:11:24) >> and at any one point in the life I could (02:11:26) have turned around and said I quit. (02:11:27) >> Yeah. And that's that's very valuable (02:11:29) for people to hear as well. And people (02:11:31) will in the fact that you're so honest (02:11:33) and you're so open about things, it (02:11:35) helps so much because when people read (02:11:37) that, they'll they'll think of (02:11:38) themselves and the the moments where (02:11:40) they've struggled or the moments where (02:11:41) they've been unsure of themselves or not (02:11:43) sure what to do or wanted to quit and (02:11:45) didn't. (02:11:46) >> It's like this is universal. It's (02:11:48) universal. And the difference between a (02:11:49) Lionel Richie and um Sandy Smith out (02:11:52) there who's listening to this is that (02:11:54) Sandy Smith hasn't started taking her (02:11:56) first steps. and that if she keeps going (02:11:58) down that line, (02:12:00) >> she could be her. (02:12:01) >> Yeah. (02:12:01) >> You know, it's just (02:12:02) >> it's just keep going. It's the there's (02:12:05) there's talent, there's gifts of God, (02:12:07) there's all sorts of things. But (02:12:09) >> one of those things that they all have (02:12:10) in common, if you know of them, it's (02:12:12) they kept going. Yeah. Like Jimmyi (02:12:13) Hendris clearly obviously was godly (02:12:16) gift. Absolutely. (02:12:17) >> Gifted. Just gifted something special. (02:12:20) >> Also worked like a [ __ ] (02:12:22) >> Like the work the work ethic was insane. (02:12:26) has to be. Think about how many records (02:12:28) Nas wrote. They were releasing records (02:12:30) for years after his death. Years after (02:12:32) his death, he never left the studio. It (02:12:34) just worked. (02:12:36) >> That's how you get that good. (02:12:36) >> That's how you get there. (02:12:37) >> You see Biggie on the streets in (02:12:39) Brooklyn when he was 17 years old. (02:12:40) You're like, "Oh, okay." With sheets of (02:12:42) paper, (02:12:43) >> wrapping with perfect flow at 17. You're (02:12:45) like, "Okay, (02:12:46) >> I get it." (02:12:46) >> You just go. (02:12:47) >> Or you get around major corporate (02:12:49) leaders and you say to myself, "Oh my (02:12:51) god, you built this company." I say, "I (02:12:53) was bankrupt 12 times." (02:12:55) >> Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Oh, you (02:12:57) were. All you remember was (02:13:00) >> the smash, but you don't remember, oh, (02:13:02) what? What? What are you talking about? (02:13:03) You know, in other words, (02:13:04) >> how many times can you take no? How many (02:13:07) times can you take rejection, (02:13:09) >> right? (02:13:09) >> How many times can you go, I quit. And (02:13:12) then you wake up the next morning, go, I (02:13:13) got another idea. (02:13:14) >> Yeah. (02:13:15) >> Because they the world is designed to (02:13:16) make you go away. (02:13:18) >> Right. (02:13:20) >> It's very simple. Right. (02:13:21) >> Don't get psyched out. I tell the kids (02:13:23) on on American, don't get psyched out. (02:13:25) Just because this person can hit every (02:13:27) note perfectly and you have this cracky (02:13:31) voice and it's it's but I can't remember (02:13:34) this perfect voice but I can remember (02:13:36) your cracky voice. (02:13:38) >> That means you've got personality. This (02:13:41) is a great karaoke singer over here. (02:13:45) >> Right. Perfect notes don't work (02:13:46) >> versus something authentic that really (02:13:48) resonates with you. (02:13:49) >> There we go. There we go. There we go. (02:13:51) >> Yeah. (02:13:52) >> I want to know what your little quirk (02:13:54) is. What's that? What's that thing? (02:13:56) >> Yeah. (02:13:57) >> You know, Cardi B is Cardi B for a (02:13:59) reason, right? (02:14:00) >> Do you follow what I'm saying? There's a (02:14:01) lot of folks that came along, right? (02:14:03) >> Cardi B is I mean, I'm just using her as (02:14:05) one example, (02:14:06) >> but the the wonderful thing about it is (02:14:08) she came with a personality. She came (02:14:09) with a thing. (02:14:10) >> Yeah. (02:14:11) >> You know, and to me, that's the quality (02:14:16) I'm looking for, not only in the music (02:14:18) business, but in life. Okay. So, you're (02:14:21) rich. Okay. So, but who are you? What? (02:14:24) Right. What's your What's your thing? (02:14:26) What's your (02:14:27) >> Who are you? (02:14:28) >> Do I like being around you? (02:14:29) >> Do I like being around you? Are you Tell (02:14:31) me what you What is it? Yeah. (02:14:33) >> Otherwise, you're just rich. Okay. (02:14:35) >> Yeah. (02:14:36) >> And you got stuff. Okay. (02:14:38) >> But who are you? (02:14:40) >> Right. You have a shitty foundation in (02:14:42) your house. (02:14:43) >> Exactly. Right. (02:14:44) >> You have a beautiful house on a shitty (02:14:46) foundation. (02:14:46) >> Oh, you got no taste at all. There's a (02:14:48) lot of no taste. (02:14:50) >> Well, listen, Lionel, it's been a real (02:14:52) honor having you on here, man. and a (02:14:54) real pleasure and I really enjoyed (02:14:55) talking to you, man. It's fascinating (02:14:57) conversation and I really applaud your (02:15:00) honesty and your your insight into your (02:15:02) life. It's it's amazing. It's really (02:15:05) awesome. (02:15:05) >> Well, I got to be honest with you. (02:15:07) There's an old expression that goes uh (02:15:09) sometimes you don't want to meet the (02:15:11) person because they may not be what you (02:15:14) thought they were. You know, uh you're (02:15:17) exactly who I thought. (02:15:18) >> Oh, you're going to be Yeah. No, I mean (02:15:20) cuz you know you mastered this (02:15:23) personality where you can sit down and (02:15:25) talk to just about everybody. And on the (02:15:27) days when you struggle with trying to (02:15:30) make a communication with somebody and (02:15:32) it doesn't work out, I go I understand (02:15:33) why it didn't work out because you know (02:15:35) you sometimes you have a block right in (02:15:38) front of you. You go, "Okay, I'll just (02:15:39) have to deal with the block." But I've (02:15:40) enjoyed this man. This is I have a lot (02:15:42) of fun. Lot of fun. (02:15:43) >> Thank you. And best of luck with (02:15:45) everything. And you've already had best (02:15:47) of luck with the book. Come on. Truly (02:15:49) Lana Richie out now. Did you do the (02:15:51) audio version? (02:15:52) >> We did the I did not do the audio (02:15:54) version. (02:15:55) >> Somebody else did it. (02:15:56) >> I did. I swear to you, I did not do it. (02:15:59) Um Um Um (02:16:01) >> How? Well, you know what it was. (02:16:03) >> If you know Lionel Richie, okay, let me (02:16:05) tell you something. (02:16:08) For the time it took me to write this (02:16:10) book (02:16:12) to two and a half years. Okay, so let me (02:16:16) just let me be honest with you. You (02:16:18) don't want me to read this book because (02:16:19) I'd go, I don't want to put that in. (02:16:21) Guys, can I change that one line? And (02:16:24) you follow me? So, I keep creating. I (02:16:27) keep creating. And so, it's just one of (02:16:30) those things. (02:16:31) >> The dude who read it at least sound a (02:16:32) little like you. (02:16:33) >> Oh, no. Wait, wait. I I'm drawing a (02:16:34) blank. Why am I drawing uh drawing a (02:16:36) blank? (02:16:37) >> Blair Underwood. (02:16:38) >> Blair Jeez. Blair Underwood. (02:16:41) >> Okay. (02:16:41) >> Blair Underwood. I love we first of all (02:16:43) we kind of had kids in in common. Our (02:16:47) kids went to the same school. So when I (02:16:49) say we had kids in common, no we didn't (02:16:50) have the same thing. No no but we had (02:16:52) kids at the same time. And so we met (02:16:54) back then. But what I love about him is (02:16:56) he understands (02:16:58) >> the I call it the middle class approach (02:17:02) to (02:17:04) to to my life. In other words, he (02:17:06) understood the fact that did we grow up (02:17:08) in the rural south? Did we struggle? (02:17:10) Then we said, "No, no, it's it's not (02:17:12) that kind of struggle." We had a (02:17:14) struggle of understanding our identity (02:17:17) and how to take that forward as artist (02:17:19) and he understood the humor. I love his (02:17:22) voice because it's not so identifiable (02:17:25) that it if it was a Morgan Freeman, I'm (02:17:27) just giving that as a perfect example. (02:17:28) And I love Morgan, but it's too (02:17:29) identifiable. I want somebody who can (02:17:31) tell a joke and it sound like Lionel, (02:17:33) >> right? Right. (02:17:34) >> You know, he had that quality. And so (02:17:35) when I I said, "No, no, no. I want I (02:17:37) want you." (02:17:39) >> We hit it off. Well, his voice, you'll (02:17:41) hear it. (02:17:42) >> Understandable. (02:17:42) >> You'll you'll understand. (02:17:44) >> Well, thank you, Lionel. Thank you (02:17:45) again. And best of luck again with (02:17:46) everything. Really appreciate it. (02:17:47) >> Thanks. It was awesome. Bye, everybody. (02:17:53) [Applause] (02:17:53) [Music] (02:17:55) [Applause] (02:17:59) [Music]