Why You Feel Lost in Life: Dr. Gabor Maté on Trauma & How to Heal (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) [Music] (00:00:00) Trauma is not what happened to you. It's (00:00:03) what h what what happened inside of you (00:00:04) as a result of what happened to you. (00:00:06) Physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional (00:00:09) abuse of children, neglect, a parent (00:00:12) being addicted, a parent dying, a parent (00:00:15) being jailed, poverty or racism. These (00:00:17) are big traumatic events that can wound (00:00:19) kids. I had a wildly traumatic birth. I (00:00:23) got rushed to emergency surgery. Oh (00:00:25) gosh. And lost 2 and 1/2 L of blood. Oh (00:00:28) gosh. and they sent Sawyer home with (00:00:31) Chris. They kept me in the hospital and (00:00:33) by the time I went home, I had severe (00:00:36) postpartum depression. She's recently (00:00:40) uh gone into therapy and one of her (00:00:43) visions is a vision that she (00:00:46) has where she's in her crib. Yeah. And (00:00:51) she really wants me to come. Yeah. and (00:00:53) it's my husband and then it's my mother (00:00:55) and then it's my mother-in-law and then (00:00:57) it's my friend Joanie that would sit (00:00:59) with me while Chris went to work and I (00:01:01) never came (00:01:05) that's one of the impacts of trauma is (00:01:07) that a that shame based view of the self (00:01:10) people start blaming themselves that (00:01:11) somehow you invited it or deserved it or (00:01:13) you didn't fight back hard enough the (00:01:15) healing needs to begin with some (00:01:17) compassionate curiosity towards the self (00:01:19) not why but (00:01:21) Why? It's a totally different (00:01:23) conversation. It makes (00:01:26) me sad that I didn't know this sooner. (00:01:33) Yeah. But I feel very grateful for your (00:01:35) work. Mhm. (00:01:39) Hey, it's your friend Mel. I am so (00:01:41) thrilled that you're here with me. It is (00:01:42) always an honor to be able to spend time (00:01:44) together with you. If you're brand new, (00:01:46) welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. And (00:01:48) I know because you chose to listen to (00:01:50) this episode that you're the type of (00:01:52) person who values your time and you're (00:01:54) also interested in learning about ways (00:01:56) that you can improve your life. I love (00:01:58) that. I love that you're listening to (00:02:00) this episode. And you want to know what (00:02:02) else I love? I love that you and I are (00:02:03) going to get to spend time learning from (00:02:05) the extraordinary Dr. Gabbor Mate. Dr. (00:02:09) Mate is a world-renowned physician and (00:02:12) best-selling author whose work dives (00:02:14) deep into childhood development and the (00:02:16) impact of trauma on how it shapes your (00:02:19) mental and physical health over your (00:02:21) lifetime. Dr. Mate has completely (00:02:25) transformed how the world sees, talks (00:02:28) about, and understands trauma. And he (00:02:30) has absolutely had that impact on me, (00:02:33) and it's been life-changing. I promise (00:02:35) you this episode is going to shift the (00:02:37) way you see everything, how you show up (00:02:40) for yourself, how you connect with the (00:02:42) people you love, and why you experience (00:02:45) life the way that you do. It's going to (00:02:47) help you understand why coping has (00:02:49) become your default and how you can move (00:02:52) toward true healing. I am so excited for (00:02:56) both you and me. So, please, please, (00:02:59) please help me welcome the extraordinary (00:03:01) Dr. Gabbor mate to the Mel Robbins (00:03:04) podcast. Before we dive in, Gabbor, I (00:03:07) would love to have you speak directly to (00:03:08) the person who's listening to us and (00:03:11) just share with them what they might (00:03:12) expect to experience if they really take (00:03:15) to heart what you're about to teach us (00:03:17) and share with us today. (00:03:20) Well, a lot of people are facing (00:03:22) challenges. Um, a lot of people are very (00:03:25) hard on themselves. A lot of people (00:03:27) think there's something wrong with them. (00:03:29) uh my fundamental understanding and what (00:03:30) I've learned is that underneath there's (00:03:33) nothing wrong with anybody that (00:03:35) everything you're dealing with came (00:03:36) along for a reason. there were (00:03:38) adaptations or they were responses to (00:03:40) difficult (00:03:41) situations. And the more you can (00:03:44) understand where your issues came from (00:03:47) and even when your negative self you and (00:03:50) the shame and the self-loathing and the (00:03:52) self-criticism and the (00:03:54) perfectionism that you experience that (00:03:56) there were actually (00:03:58) responses to some kind of life (00:04:01) experience and that fundamentally there (00:04:04) was and there is nothing wrong with you. (00:04:06) And those things can be looked at and (00:04:08) you can understand them and you can um (00:04:11) transform that and really become (00:04:13) yourself who you are. That's available (00:04:15) to you. It's available to everybody. So (00:04:18) nobody's damaged goods. I love that. No (00:04:22) one is damaged goods. Yeah. We are going (00:04:25) to unpack this uh in this conversation (00:04:28) at length, but I think it might be (00:04:29) helpful for someone who is not familiar (00:04:31) with your work. Yeah. If we could go (00:04:34) back. Sure. And can you share if we go (00:04:37) all the way back to your childhood just (00:04:39) what was happening in your life and in (00:04:42) particular how finding your mother's (00:04:44) journal really impacted you and sent you (00:04:48) in a certain direction in terms of your (00:04:50) life's work? Well, so I was born uh 80 (00:04:53) years ago uh this year um in Budapest, (00:04:56) Hungary, January 1944 to Jewish parents (00:05:00) whose um lives (00:05:03) were already impacted by the Second (00:05:06) World War. My father was in forced labor (00:05:08) with the Hungarian army. A Jewish man (00:05:10) had to go into forced labor when I was (00:05:12) born. So he wasn't there when I was (00:05:14) born. In um March, the German army (00:05:18) occupied Hungary. And then the genocide, (00:05:20) the holocaust that had obliterated the (00:05:24) Jewish population of Eastern Europe, but (00:05:25) not yet that of Hungaries began in our (00:05:27) country. And within three months between (00:05:30) March and (00:05:31) June, they murdered half a million Jews, (00:05:34) including my grandparents. And we came (00:05:37) very close to being deported ourselves, (00:05:39) my mother and I. So I spent the first (00:05:42) year of my life under Nazi occupation uh (00:05:45) with the mother was terrorized and grief (00:05:48) struck. didn't know if my father was (00:05:50) dead or alive for most of that year. And (00:05:53) then when I was 11 months of age to save (00:05:56) my life, mother mother gave me to a (00:05:57) complete stranger, Christian woman in (00:06:00) the street. And she conveyed me to some (00:06:03) relatives living in relative safety and (00:06:06) hiding. Um I didn't see her for five or (00:06:08) 6 weeks. And all this is recorded in the (00:06:12) journal that she kept. I I didn't (00:06:14) discover the journal. I I always had (00:06:16) this her her (00:06:17) journal, but for many years when I tried (00:06:20) to read it, I get (00:06:22) dizzy. It's almost like sending me knew (00:06:24) that this is too painful for me to (00:06:26) handle. So it wasn't until some years (00:06:29) ago when my mother is still alive when I (00:06:32) asked her to actually read the journal (00:06:34) to me so I could really read what (00:06:35) happened. (00:06:36) And she wrote in the journal that I'm (00:06:40) writing this cuz if my son if my son (00:06:42) grows up I want him to know what (00:06:45) happened. So that's in a nutshell. But (00:06:48) those events left a deep imprint in my (00:06:51) nervous system in my body and in in my (00:06:54) psyche. Um, and those traumatic events (00:07:00) created a lot of psychological wounds in (00:07:03) me that took me some years to even (00:07:04) recognize, let alone to heal. And uh, it (00:07:07) wasn't until I was into late adulthood (00:07:11) and or middle age that I really began to (00:07:14) deal with it and to recognize the (00:07:16) subsequent impacts that then I passed on (00:07:19) to my kids without meaning to, but just (00:07:22) for the lack of awareness. So that's it (00:07:25) in a nutshell. Well, that's a big (00:07:27) nutshell. Yeah. Wow. So, how did those (00:07:34) experiences in your life really start to (00:07:36) shape your work? Like, how did you start (00:07:39) doing what you do today? (00:07:42) Well, before it shaped my work, it (00:07:45) shaped me and how I functioned in the (00:07:47) world or how I dysfunctioned in the (00:07:50) world in so many ways. So it's it's when (00:07:52) I began to experience challenges in my (00:07:54) life. Um I was a successful doctor in my (00:07:58) early (00:07:59) 40s. Um (00:08:01) respected but depressed and unhappy. Um (00:08:05) I was married to the love of my life and (00:08:08) we had a very strained conflictual (00:08:11) marriage and my kids had issues and some (00:08:15) ways they were afraid of me cuz I was (00:08:17) very unpredictable. (00:08:19) Um so all those issues then made me (00:08:23) start looking for some answers. So the (00:08:25) work began by having to look at myself (00:08:27) and trying to understand the sources of (00:08:29) my behaviors. Um and that coincided with (00:08:33) me noticing things as a physician in my (00:08:36) medical practice. And that's how I began (00:08:38) to look at childhood development, the (00:08:40) impacts of early years, um the concept (00:08:44) of trauma and what that represented and (00:08:47) its impacts on adult or childhood mental (00:08:50) health, physical illness and so on. So (00:08:52) both my personal experience and my (00:08:55) professional work kind of led me in this (00:08:58) direction of exploration. (00:09:01) And what have you (00:09:03) learned about how childhood experiences (00:09:06) shape who we become as adults? They're (00:09:10) largely (00:09:11) decisive and (00:09:13) um this begins even before birth. So (00:09:16) already the emotional states of the (00:09:20) mother while carrying the baby will (00:09:22) affect the child's brain development. I (00:09:24) just want to make sure that the person (00:09:26) that's with us in this conversation (00:09:28) really gets this because I didn't first (00:09:31) learn that your emotional state and your (00:09:36) physical state when you're carrying the (00:09:39) child impacts the nervous system and (00:09:42) development of the human being inside (00:09:44) you and it makes sense but but can you (00:09:47) explain more about that because this is (00:09:50) an idea that was brand new to me just a (00:09:52) couple years ago. Sure. But we have to (00:09:55) nail down first is we're not blaming (00:09:57) mothers here. They do their best. We're (00:10:00) talking about the stress is acting on (00:10:02) the pregnant woman. That's no fault of (00:10:05) her own. But speaking of stress, when (00:10:08) people are stressed, they release stress (00:10:11) hormones are dwelling on cortisol. When (00:10:14) the mother is stressed in pregnancy, (00:10:16) those stress hormones go through the (00:10:18) placenta of the umbilical cord to the (00:10:20) baby that affects the child's nervous (00:10:22) system in his development. Cortisol has (00:10:25) a huge impact on the development of (00:10:27) important brain circuits. You (00:10:30) can look at the heart rate of infants in (00:10:34) the womb as it changes as the mother is (00:10:38) more or less (00:10:39) stressed. So these are just (00:10:41) physiological facts. So um there was a (00:10:44) study done after (00:10:46) 911 after (00:10:48) the tragedy of 9 911 women who were (00:10:52) pregnant then (00:10:54) uh and who suffered post-traumatic (00:10:56) stress disorder in the third trimester (00:10:59) of pregnancy as a result of (00:11:01) 911 their infants had abnormal stress (00:11:04) hormone levels a year (00:11:05) later. Now abnormal tester levels have (00:11:08) an impact on brain development and on (00:11:11) physiology on the physiology and (00:11:13) physiological health as well. So you can (00:11:15) expect those kids unless something's (00:11:19) done to to correct it to face more (00:11:22) challenges later on. And we know that (00:11:24) mothers who are stressed during (00:11:26) pregnancy, depressed during during (00:11:28) pregnancy, their children are more (00:11:30) likely to have ADHD, attention deficit (00:11:32) disorder, other mental health (00:11:34) challenges. So it's just now what's (00:11:36) interesting here is indigenous people (00:11:38) have always known this. I was talking to (00:11:41) a a native group in British Columbia (00:11:43) where I live and this guy comes up to me (00:11:45) and says you know doc in our community (00:11:47) when a woman was pregnant there was a (00:11:50) rule that if you're stressed or upset (00:11:52) you were not permitted to go near them. (00:11:54) We didn't want your stress and upset to (00:11:57) affect the baby. So this modern science (00:11:59) has only confirmed indigenous wisdom. (00:12:03) But it's a huge issue in this country in (00:12:05) this culture cuz people are so stressed (00:12:07) for so many reasons. (00:12:09) Well, it's interesting to listen to you (00:12:13) explain all this because for me (00:12:16) personally, your work has impacted both (00:12:19) me and recognizing the way that (00:12:22) childhood experiences (00:12:24) and in vitro experiences when I was (00:12:27) inside my mother's body impacted Sorry. (00:12:30) In utero. In utero. Is that what it (00:12:32) Okay. See, I'm not a medical doctor. No, (00:12:33) in vitro means in the laboratory. Oh, (00:12:35) okay. You're right. In in utero. (00:12:37) Exactly. Yeah. so impacted me when I was (00:12:41) inside my mother developing, you know, (00:12:43) into a baby. Yeah. And then I think (00:12:46) about your work in the context of me as (00:12:48) a stressed out mother. Yeah. And the (00:12:50) state that I was in when I was carrying (00:12:53) any one of our three children and how (00:12:56) that absolutely impacted their (00:12:59) development. There's this kind of (00:13:02) conflict that I feel between, oh gosh, (00:13:05) you know, I hurt my kids and I didn't (00:13:08) mean to and also this understanding (00:13:12) that I think this is part of the human (00:13:14) experience on some level. Well, for (00:13:17) first of all, when my mother was (00:13:19) carrying me, I don't think she even (00:13:20) wanted to be pregnant. I mean, what (00:13:23) Jewish woman really wanted to be (00:13:25) pregnant in the middle of the Second (00:13:26) World War when my when her husband is in (00:13:28) forced labor? already in Udo kids can (00:13:31) feel if they're not (00:13:33) wanted. I've seen this show up in many (00:13:36) many many many ways. Now the the the (00:13:40) thing that I would take up with you (00:13:43) is on the one hand there's the awareness (00:13:46) that this is what happened but the way (00:13:47) you formulated that you hurt your kids. (00:13:51) No pain flowed through you to your (00:13:53) children but you didn't hurt them. You (00:13:56) didn't. It's not that you did something (00:13:59) deliberately or consciously to hurt (00:14:01) them. It's just that the way it worked (00:14:03) is that trauma is transmitted (00:14:06) transgenerationally. But that's not to (00:14:08) blame anybody. And it's really important (00:14:10) to remove blame cuz parents feel so (00:14:11) guilty already. Parents with kids who (00:14:14) are challeng have challenges. Believe (00:14:16) me, I've been one of them. There's a (00:14:18) tremendous sense of guilt which is (00:14:20) entirely unwarranted and undeserved and (00:14:23) it doesn't even help. So let's just (00:14:26) agree that the trauma does come through (00:14:28) us but we don't do it as such that is (00:14:33) incredibly helpful way to think about it (00:14:35) though when you said that it's pain (00:14:37) moving through you. Yeah. Yeah. That (00:14:39) made my shoulders drop. (00:14:42) How do you define trauma particularly (00:14:44) for somebody (00:14:45) who isn't aware whether or not they've (00:14:48) experienced it? Um the way I define it (00:14:51) is very straightforward. Trauma comes (00:14:53) from a Greek word for wound or wounding. (00:14:54) So trauma is a wound. It's a (00:14:56) psychological wound in this case. Could (00:14:58) be a physical wound, but here we're (00:15:00) talking about psychological wounds. The (00:15:02) important distinction to make is that (00:15:04) trauma is not what happened to you. It's (00:15:06) what h what happened inside of you as a (00:15:08) result of what happened to you. So in my (00:15:11) case, my trauma wasn't that my mother (00:15:14) gave me to a stranger. The trauma was (00:15:17) the wound which is that I perceive (00:15:20) myself as not wanted. I perceive myself (00:15:23) as abandoned. Who gets abandoned? (00:15:25) Somebody who doesn't deserve to be (00:15:28) loved. So then I develop this sense of (00:15:32) not being good enough, not um being (00:15:35) lovable enough. Now that means I spend (00:15:38) much of my life trying to prove that I'm (00:15:40) good, that I'm lovable, that I am (00:15:43) important, which then drives all kinds (00:15:45) of behaviors which then create more (00:15:47) problems. But the trauma is not the (00:15:49) event, that's the traumatic (00:15:52) um episode, but the trauma is the wound (00:15:54) that happens inside you. So if I get a (00:15:57) blow head, that's not the trauma. The (00:16:00) trauma is the concussion that I (00:16:01) developed. Now, in that case, it's (00:16:03) physical. And I want to kind of hover (00:16:05) here because for a long time I just (00:16:09) assumed trauma was something that (00:16:10) happened to people. Yeah. Who were at (00:16:13) war or were in a country that was (00:16:15) occupied by you know a fascist (00:16:17) government or country coming in like (00:16:20) your parents were and that you were. (00:16:22) Yeah. I or somebody that was the the (00:16:24) victim of a violent crime. I never (00:16:29) understood that experiences that may (00:16:32) seem insignificant on the surface, (00:16:34) somebody's mood, somebody criticizing (00:16:37) you, feeling left out, that these are (00:16:40) things that can also leave a mark just (00:16:42) like a blow to a head can can actually (00:16:44) leave a concussion. And I would love for (00:16:47) you to explain to us what actually is a (00:16:51) psychological wound because one of the (00:16:53) things that I see happening a lot is (00:16:55) people either shame themselves for being (00:16:57) stuck or they say I'm just too emotional (00:17:00) or I should just get over it. And there (00:17:04) is something deeper that you mean when (00:17:06) you say it's a psychological wound. So (00:17:09) well that self-t talk that negative (00:17:12) selft talk that you just articulated is (00:17:13) itself a psychological wound. (00:17:16) It's a sign of psychological wound. It's (00:17:17) a sign of self-rejection which is one of (00:17:20) the deepest impacts of of trauma is that (00:17:23) people traumatized they develop a shame (00:17:26) based view of themselves. So they begin (00:17:29) to think that there's something wrong (00:17:30) with them. That itself is a wound. Now (00:17:33) when you talked about seemingly (00:17:35) insignificant things we have to make a (00:17:38) distinction here. There are what we call (00:17:40) the big T traumatic events. Those are (00:17:43) have been well studied. Physical abuse, (00:17:46) sexual abuse, emotional abuse of (00:17:49) children, (00:17:50) neglect, a parent being addicted, a (00:17:53) parent dying, a parent being jailed, um (00:17:56) violence in the family, um a ranker's (00:17:59) divorce, a parent being mentally ill, to (00:18:02) which we need to add social factors such (00:18:04) as poverty or racism. These are bigt (00:18:07) traumatic events that can wound kids and (00:18:09) we can talk about the ways that hap (00:18:11) happens. But you can also wound kids not (00:18:15) by doing bad things to them that you (00:18:18) shouldn't but by not doing the good (00:18:20) things that they need. In other words, (00:18:22) children have certain needs. A human (00:18:24) child is born with certain evolution (00:18:27) determined needs. Those children whose (00:18:29) needs are not met that way for example (00:18:32) for unconditional loving acceptance and (00:18:34) I'm not talking about the parents love. (00:18:36) I'm talking about the capacity of the (00:18:37) parent to unconditionally accept the (00:18:39) child and to see the child. What do you (00:18:42) mean when you say unconditional (00:18:44) acceptance? Because I think most of us (00:18:46) it's revelatory to hear no. There's a (00:18:49) biological hardwired need that you have (00:18:51) as a child to feel unconditional (00:18:54) acceptance and safety. Yeah. From the (00:18:56) adults around you and in your (00:18:58) environment. And if you do not feel that (00:19:01) way, it creates a response inside your (00:19:04) body. There is a reaction to that. But (00:19:06) most of us, I think we even just skip (00:19:08) over that fact, Gabbor, that there's a (00:19:13) fundamental need that a child has to (00:19:15) feel accepted. And so what does that (00:19:17) mean? If you could unpack it for us. (00:19:21) Sure. Children get to experience and see (00:19:25) themselves the way they are seen by the (00:19:29) adults. So if a child gets emotional and (00:19:31) they get criticized, then there's think (00:19:34) there's something wrong with their (00:19:35) emotions. (00:19:37) If a child is very sensitive and they're (00:19:39) told, "Don't be so sensitive," they (00:19:41) think there's something wrong with (00:19:43) them. If (00:19:46) um a child, a young toddler is behaving (00:19:49) a certain way and the parent thinks that (00:19:52) the way to correct this is to punish the (00:19:55) child, then the child and the child is (00:19:57) just being a 2-year-old. (00:20:00) Then the child begins to believe that (00:20:02) there's something wrong with them and (00:20:04) they have to compensate for that by (00:20:06) meeting the parents (00:20:08) expectations. So now the acceptance is (00:20:11) no longer unconditional. I'll accept you (00:20:14) if you look this way, talk this way, (00:20:18) behave this way. And then all your life (00:20:22) you'll be worried about how do people (00:20:24) see you. That's a sign of a childhood (00:20:26) wound. Because fundamentally uh we need (00:20:29) to be connected to ourselves and and um (00:20:33) when parents don't see us, we don't see (00:20:36) ourselves. That's just a fact. And if (00:20:39) you look at human evolution, (00:20:42) um we didn't (00:20:44) evolve under the conditions that kids (00:20:46) are raised now. We evolved under (00:20:48) conditions for millions of years (00:20:51) until 15,000 years ago living in small (00:20:56) communities where there were many (00:20:58) adults. It takes a village to raise a (00:21:01) child. Um the kids were always with the (00:21:04) parents. There was no separation. Kids (00:21:05) were carried everywhere. They were not (00:21:07) put down to let it let them cry it out. (00:21:10) they were just unconditionally accepted (00:21:14) and uh not punished actually not (00:21:17) hit. It's a totally different paradigm (00:21:20) of of parenting. That's how we evolved (00:21:23) which means that the human child expects (00:21:25) to be treated that (00:21:27) way uncondition you know unconsciously (00:21:30) when those needs are not met kids are (00:21:32) hurt. Children have another need which (00:21:35) is we're wired to have certain emotions (00:21:38) you know along with other mammals we're (00:21:40) wired to have anger it's anger is (00:21:43) essential for survival fear we're wired (00:21:46) to have fear we're wired to have um (00:21:51) curiosity seeking we're wired to have (00:21:54) um separation (00:21:57) distress so that if the adults not (00:22:00) around we should be upset we should (00:22:01) panic so we cry so the parents come and (00:22:03) get us. Mhm. We're wired for play. And (00:22:07) children have this need that when those (00:22:10) emotions arise, parents should (00:22:12) understand those emotions and and and (00:22:14) not necessarily do what the kid wants (00:22:16) them to do, but to understand the (00:22:18) child's feelings. (00:22:20) And when children are denied that kind (00:22:23) of understanding, they think there's (00:22:25) something wrong with their emotions. (00:22:26) Then they start telling themselves, I'm (00:22:28) too emotional. I'm not good enough. Uh (00:22:30) I'm too sensitive. I am (00:22:33) um not lovable. Or when children don't (00:22:37) get the attention that they need, guess (00:22:40) what? They develop and need to be (00:22:42) attractive so they can attract (00:22:44) attention. Now look at the damage done (00:22:46) in this culture by people thinking that (00:22:49) they need to meet certain standards of (00:22:53) physical (00:22:54) looks and the trouble that people go to. (00:22:57) It's all because they were not accepted (00:23:00) just for who they were and not they're (00:23:02) trying to attract attention. Is there a (00:23:05) human being on the planet that doesn't (00:23:06) have trauma from their childhood? I (00:23:08) mean, you know, cuz I I'm sitting here (00:23:10) listening and it's an interesting (00:23:13) conversation because you listen to it (00:23:15) both from your experience. Yeah. And I (00:23:18) love that you said we're not going to (00:23:20) blame mothers. Yeah. And pain is moving (00:23:23) through people. Yeah. This is why trauma (00:23:25) passes through your family and through (00:23:28) cultures generationally. Yeah. And (00:23:30) learning about this helps you understand (00:23:34) the responses to your childhood that (00:23:36) helped you survived. Yeah. And it also (00:23:38) helps you feel empowered to take (00:23:41) responsibility. That's right. To change (00:23:43) those now subconscious responses that (00:23:45) you have. Yeah. So going back to your (00:23:48) question about is there anybody on the (00:23:49) planet? Yeah. But in this culture, that (00:23:53) would be the exception because there's (00:23:55) so many features of this culture that (00:23:57) don't meet human needs that human make (00:24:00) human life difficult. Look, the United (00:24:01) States is the richest country in (00:24:05) history. 70% of adults are at least on (00:24:08) one medication. 40% of adults are at (00:24:11) least on two medications. More and more (00:24:13) kids are getting medicated for all kinds (00:24:15) of conditions from ADHD to self- cutting (00:24:18) to to aggression to so-called (00:24:21) oppositionality to (00:24:23) anxiety. We can look at this two ways. (00:24:27) Either human beings are just (00:24:31) innately troubled or there's something (00:24:34) wrong with the environment in which (00:24:36) we're raising our kids and in which (00:24:38) we're trying to striving to doing our (00:24:40) best but we're facing conditions that (00:24:43) are enimical to healthy human (00:24:45) development. So in this sense when we (00:24:47) talk about trauma we're talking about (00:24:49) the conditions under which parents have (00:24:51) to function these days. If I was (00:24:53) functioning in a laboratory trying to (00:24:56) grow (00:24:57) microorganisms, the word is called (00:24:58) culturing. We're trying to culture (00:25:00) organisms, laboratory culture. If in (00:25:03) that laboratory culture, a lot of those (00:25:05) microorganisms began to develop (00:25:07) pathologies or die off, you have to say (00:25:09) this is a toxic culture. Well, it's the (00:25:12) same thing with human beings. So rather (00:25:15) than look at the source of people's (00:25:17) problems strictly within themselves, we (00:25:20) have to actually look at the conditions (00:25:22) for any creature in the world, whether (00:25:24) it's a plant or animal, you have to look (00:25:26) at the conditions under which people are (00:25:28) living and raising kids and trying to (00:25:31) function. So that's what I'm doing here. (00:25:33) When you think of childhood trauma, how (00:25:35) do you identify it? Well, again, I (00:25:38) mentioned those 10 conditions, the big (00:25:41) T, the big T's ones. um adding to it (00:25:44) poverty and (00:25:46) racism. Those things actually affect the (00:25:48) physiology of the body. So people who (00:25:51) are traumatized that way, they have a (00:25:53) much higher risk. For example, people (00:25:55) who've had several of those big (00:25:58) experiences that I talked about, they (00:26:00) have a higher risk for autoimmune (00:26:01) disease, high risk for higher risk for (00:26:03) cancer, much higher risk for addiction, (00:26:06) much higher risk for mental health (00:26:07) problems and so on. Why? Like can you (00:26:10) explain for from a medical reason like (00:26:12) in the body this show is has listeners (00:26:15) in 194 countries. Sure. And this might (00:26:18) be the very first time as you're (00:26:20) listening to God birth that you're (00:26:22) actually starting to go wait a minute. (00:26:24) Everything that he's saying is what I (00:26:26) experienced. Yeah. Or at least pieces of (00:26:28) it. I've never considered that this (00:26:30) could be trauma. Yeah. And we've talked (00:26:32) about it as a psychological wound, but I (00:26:35) think it'd be really helpful if you also (00:26:37) explained how does this create either (00:26:40) programming or conditioning in your body (00:26:43) that starts to define who you become as (00:26:46) an adult and create behaviors that you (00:26:50) never intended. So that happens on both (00:26:53) the physiological and the psychological (00:26:55) level. Okay. On the physiological level, (00:26:58) trauma incites inflammation in the body. (00:27:02) So people who are severely traumatized (00:27:03) in childhood, you can measure the level (00:27:05) of inflammatory particles in their (00:27:07) bloodstream. They'll be abnormally high, (00:27:09) which makes them more at risk for (00:27:11) cancer, more at risk for autoimmune (00:27:12) disease, more at risk for depression, (00:27:14) mental health problems, and so on. (00:27:16) That's just a physiological fact. Trauma (00:27:19) can affect the way uh genes are turned (00:27:21) on and off. So genes don't function (00:27:25) independently. Um there are very few (00:27:28) conditions that are purely genetically (00:27:29) determined. There are some when one runs (00:27:32) in my family musculardrophe if you (00:27:34) inherit the gene you'll have the disease (00:27:36) but that's very rare relatively but (00:27:40) genes are turned on off by the animal (00:27:42) environment so the wrong genes can be (00:27:44) turned on and the and the right genes (00:27:45) can be turned off by trauma then trauma (00:27:50) can disregulate the body's stress (00:27:52) mechanism. So people are secretreting (00:27:55) more cortisol and adrenaline. These are (00:27:57) the stress hormones which in the short (00:27:59) term are lifesaving because if I was (00:28:02) threatened or you were we would generate (00:28:04) cortisol adrenaline from an adrenal (00:28:06) gland and we would be stronger and (00:28:09) faster and better able to counter the (00:28:11) threat either to escape or to fight (00:28:13) back. But in the long term, those same (00:28:16) stress hormones thin the bones, create (00:28:19) more clotting in the blood, narrow the (00:28:21) blood vessels, elevate the high blood (00:28:23) pressure, elevate the blood pressure, (00:28:25) you get hypertension, suppress the (00:28:28) immune system, put fat on your belly, (00:28:30) creating higher risk for heart disease, (00:28:33) makes you depressed, ulcerate your (00:28:34) intestines. These are the stress (00:28:36) hormones. Wow. So there's all that um on (00:28:40) the physiological side and I could say (00:28:42) more about it, but if you for example I (00:28:46) I mentioned racism. So if you look at (00:28:49) the chromosomeal aging of black people (00:28:54) in this country, they age faster than (00:28:57) Caucasians. And black is already have (00:28:59) higher blood pressure measurements than (00:29:01) their Caucasian counterparts. It's got (00:29:03) nothing to do with genetics. It's got to (00:29:05) do with the stress of racism. (00:29:07) A black woman in this country, the more (00:29:10) episodes of racism they experience, the (00:29:12) higher the risk for (00:29:15) asthma. Children whose parents are (00:29:18) stressed are at higher risk for asthma. (00:29:20) This has been known for (00:29:23) decades. I could go on a great length (00:29:26) about that. So these are some of the (00:29:27) physiological impacts. Then there are (00:29:29) the emotional impacts. (00:29:33) So like in my case being given to a (00:29:37) stranger gives me the sense of not being (00:29:39) wanted, not being important. Then I (00:29:42) develop behaviors where I try and prove (00:29:44) my importance. So I become a workaholic (00:29:47) doctor. So I drive myself too hard and I (00:29:50) don't pay so much attention to my family (00:29:52) cuz I'm out there trying to prove my (00:29:54) importance in the world. Now that has (00:29:55) impact on my kids, that has an impact on (00:29:57) my marriage. So there's these um (00:30:01) behavior emotional impacts which result (00:30:03) in certain behaviors. Then we can talk (00:30:05) about addictions. Addictions is a huge (00:30:09) consequence of childhood trauma of all (00:30:12) kinds. And there's all kinds of science (00:30:14) behind that. So the one more thing if I (00:30:18) may (00:30:19) say when people get the message that (00:30:22) their emotions aren't acceptable to the (00:30:24) adults children will push down their (00:30:27) feelings in order to be accepted and (00:30:30) they'll try to be nice and (00:30:32) cooperative and they'll try to fit in (00:30:35) with other people's expectations which (00:30:37) then means they'll be stressed all the (00:30:39) time which then potentiates all kinds of (00:30:41) illness. You know, I am sitting here (00:30:44) thinking about ways in (00:30:47) which I can try to (00:30:51) distill down what you're saying because (00:30:53) the information has been so (00:30:56) life-changing for me in my own life to (00:30:59) really accept, acknowledge, and seek to (00:31:02) understand how childhood (00:31:05) experiences created a traumatic response (00:31:08) inside of me. And I want to focus on the (00:31:12) I guess you would call it the smaller T (00:31:14) stuff which is that you have fundamental (00:31:17) needs as a child and when they are not (00:31:20) provided to you that it creates trauma (00:31:23) inside of you. And is it fair to say (00:31:26) that another way to think about trauma (00:31:28) is that it's something happening outside (00:31:31) of you that creates this almost like (00:31:35) alarm or bracing in your body. It's like (00:31:37) it it kind of flips you into that fight (00:31:39) or flight cuz I have this experience of (00:31:43) not like going back through my childhood (00:31:45) and not like seeing anything that's (00:31:47) massive related to my parents but just (00:31:51) having this sense of constantly being on (00:31:53) edge, constantly feeling like, you know, (00:31:56) it's my job to make everybody happy, (00:31:58) don't say the wrong thing, this hyper (00:32:00) vigilance. And I never knew where it (00:32:02) came from. Yeah. Well, the child is very (00:32:05) sensitive to the parents emotional (00:32:07) states and uh even if for example you (00:32:11) can (00:32:12) uh one of the ways you can tell if a (00:32:14) marriage is troubled is you can ask the (00:32:16) parents or you can measure the child's (00:32:19) stress hormone (00:32:20) levels. So the stresses of the parents (00:32:24) are directly rel um affecting the (00:32:27) child's physiology and the child's (00:32:29) psychology. So you may not have (00:32:31) articulated and and and and clearly see (00:32:35) what was going on, but especially if (00:32:38) you're a sensitive person genetically, (00:32:39) and that is genetic sensitivity, you'll (00:32:42) feel exactly what's going on, and you'll (00:32:45) think it's all about you. And then you (00:32:47) also develop the belief that it's your (00:32:49) job to fix it. And then when you can't (00:32:52) fix it, you have this tremendous sense (00:32:54) of guilt and shame cuz you failed at (00:32:56) your job of making your parents happy, (00:32:58) which never should have been the child's (00:33:00) job in the first place. (00:33:02) What is a child supposed to do? About (00:33:05) what? (00:33:08) Just as you're growing up. It's (00:33:10) interesting because I think so many (00:33:11) people at least in my life and my lived (00:33:14) experience is that that that's my job to (00:33:18) protect myself to like make everybody (00:33:19) happy to but but you see that's how you (00:33:22) survived because what you needed most of (00:33:25) all is a relationship with your parents (00:33:28) and one of the needs of children that I (00:33:30) haven't mentioned is what we can call (00:33:32) rest which means in order to cuz in that (00:33:34) rest state we can develop and grow and (00:33:36) unfold now rest means the child doesn't (00:33:39) have to work to make the relationship (00:33:40) work with the parent. The relationship (00:33:42) is just there. There's nothing the child (00:33:45) can do to break the relationship. (00:33:47) Now, in a situation where that's not the (00:33:50) case, then the child (00:33:52) necessarily has to work to make the (00:33:55) relationship work because without that (00:33:57) relationship, they know they can't (00:33:58) survive. So, that (00:34:01) adaptation, the the hyper vigilance on (00:34:03) your part, remember I said in the (00:34:05) beginning that nobody's damaged goods. (00:34:08) Mhm. So that that hyper vigilance on (00:34:10) your part and that belief that it's your (00:34:12) job to make the situation peaceful, (00:34:14) that's an adaptation on your part. So (00:34:17) that's a form of trauma. That's an (00:34:19) outcome of trauma. The problem (00:34:22) is that that becomes then wired into (00:34:25) your personality. But children don't (00:34:28) have any choice in the matter. They have (00:34:29) to adapt to this situation. Those (00:34:32) adaptations they become wired into their (00:34:34) personalities and that's who they think (00:34:36) they are. That's not who they are. Those (00:34:39) are their adaptations, their trauma (00:34:41) showing up in their behavior and in (00:34:43) their emotional functioning. One of the (00:34:46) ways that I've seen people really deny (00:34:49) Yeah. the existence of trauma inside a (00:34:51) family is between siblings. Yeah. Where (00:34:54) two siblings will grow up in the same (00:34:55) household and be like, "Well, that never (00:34:57) happened." Or, "Mom wasn't like that, or (00:34:59) you're just being too sensitive." In (00:35:02) your work, what have you discovered (00:35:04) about how siblings can grow up in the (00:35:07) same house? No siblings grow up in the (00:35:09) same house. No siblings have the same (00:35:11) parents. No siblings have the same (00:35:14) family. No siblings have the same (00:35:16) childhood. Why not? There whole lot of (00:35:19) reasons. Number one, there's the birth (00:35:22) order. Parents don't relate to the first (00:35:24) child the way they relate to the second (00:35:26) child. Then there's gender differences. (00:35:29) Parents don't relate to I'm not talking (00:35:31) about whe the parents love the kids or (00:35:32) not. I'm talking about what actually (00:35:33) happens. The child doesn't experience (00:35:36) the parents love. The child experiences (00:35:39) the way the parent shows up. So um (00:35:42) number one, number two, the parents (00:35:44) relationship might be in a different (00:35:45) phase, one child and another (00:35:51) um the parents might be in a different (00:35:53) economic (00:35:54) situation. The parents lives might be (00:35:56) different. Um (00:35:59) then each child will evoke a different (00:36:02) response from the parent like with my (00:36:05) three kids or your three kids. Yeah. You (00:36:08) have three children. Yeah. You have two (00:36:09) daughters and a son. I have two sons and (00:36:11) a daughter. It's not that I loved or we (00:36:13) loved any one of them more than the (00:36:14) other. But we responded to them (00:36:16) differently. And there's one more factor (00:36:18) which is children are born with (00:36:20) different temperaments which is they (00:36:22) experience the world differently. So (00:36:24) even if I could be the same parent to (00:36:25) all my kids, which I couldn't be, they (00:36:28) still have three different parents (00:36:29) because they would experience me (00:36:31) differently. (00:36:32) Well, you know, I (00:36:33) I am sitting here (00:36:36) listening again kind of from two places. (00:36:39) one as a mother, right? And one as a (00:36:42) human being who was a daughter who has (00:36:46) recognized that there were lots of small (00:36:48) things that happened and one big thing (00:36:51) that created a tremendous like a (00:36:53) traumatic response inside me. Sure. That (00:36:56) created hypervigilance and anxiety and (00:36:58) probably ADHD. And I'm also thinking and (00:37:00) I'm going to share this because I think (00:37:01) it'll be really helpful that I had a (00:37:05) wildly traumatic birth. I was two weeks (00:37:08) overdue. They had to induce me here in (00:37:10) Boston and my daughter Sawyer who is (00:37:13) sitting outside this studio and yeah (00:37:16) worked on the let them theory book with (00:37:17) me she did not want to come out. Yeah. (00:37:21) So it was 36 hours. They had to use a (00:37:26) forceps didn't work. They ended up doing (00:37:28) a vacuum extraction and then I tore and (00:37:33) I got rushed to emergency surgery. Oh (00:37:35) gosh. And lost 2 and 12 liters of blood. (00:37:37) Oh gosh. And they sent Sawyer home with (00:37:41) Chris. They kept me in the hospital and (00:37:43) by the time I went home, my skin was as (00:37:45) gray as a dolphin. Yeah. And I had (00:37:48) severe postpartum depression. Yeah. and (00:37:52) the kind gobber where I could not be (00:37:55) alone with her because I was in such a (00:37:59) depressive and scary state and I was on (00:38:03) medications that made it completely (00:38:05) unsafe for me to breastfeed her. I (00:38:07) understand. And for the first 10 weeks (00:38:09) of her life, I was a zombie on (00:38:13) medication. (00:38:15) And oh my god, it just like kills me to (00:38:18) think about this. and she's recently (00:38:22) uh gone into therapy and has started (00:38:25) doing EMDR. Yeah. And one of her visions (00:38:30) when they kind of (00:38:32) trace her, you know, responses to (00:38:35) stressful things in the moment and it (00:38:37) goes all the way back to the first (00:38:38) vision. Yeah. Is a vision that she has (00:38:42) where she's in her crib. Yeah. And she (00:38:46) really wants me to come. Yeah. and it's (00:38:49) my husband and then it's my mother and (00:38:51) then it's my mother-in-law and then it's (00:38:52) my friend Joanie that would sit with me (00:38:54) while Chris went to work and I never (00:38:56) came. Yeah. So, we went through the same (00:39:00) thing uh with one of our children and my (00:39:03) wife had a severe postbone depression. (00:39:06) She couldn't even look at the kid and (00:39:09) um so let me say a couple of things (00:39:11) here. (00:39:13) Um one is that sometimes birth trauma (00:39:15) happens you know but yours was severe. (00:39:19) Now birth was created by nature in a (00:39:21) certain way and um during the birth (00:39:25) process there's natural hormones that (00:39:27) are released both in the mother and the (00:39:29) infant. It's been called a love (00:39:31) cocktail. (00:39:33) It's a combination of internal (00:39:35) opiates and (00:39:38) oxytocin and other brain chemicals which (00:39:41) create the bonding between the mother (00:39:42) and the (00:39:43) infant. Now, sometimes medical (00:39:46) intervention is life-saving and (00:39:48) essential. But we've medicalized birth (00:39:51) so much that we interfere with it so (00:39:52) much now that we're getting a lot of (00:39:54) birth trauma where it's not necessary. (00:39:56) I'm not saying that was the case in your (00:39:58) situation, but nevertheless, we're doing (00:40:00) it a lot, you (00:40:02) know, and that interferes with mother (00:40:06) and child bonding. Number one. Number (00:40:08) two, the child does have this need to (00:40:11) stay with the mother's body for many (00:40:15) months. Uh because the human child is (00:40:18) the (00:40:18) um least developed and the least mature (00:40:21) and the most dependent of any mammal. (00:40:24) and the maturation like a horse can run (00:40:26) on the first day of life. Human beings (00:40:28) can't do that for a year and a half. The (00:40:29) horse is a year and a half ahead of us (00:40:31) in terms of brain development. That's (00:40:33) because we develop these big (00:40:35) brains, these big heads. If we waited (00:40:38) any more than 9 months, we would never (00:40:40) get born. Sometimes even now, we barely (00:40:42) get born cuz the head is get stuck, (00:40:45) which is probably what happened in in (00:40:46) your case. Mhm. Which means that the (00:40:49) development that in other animals (00:40:51) happens in the womb in human beings have (00:40:53) to happen outside the womb. That's been (00:40:56) called (00:40:57) extrostation. There's introestation in (00:41:00) the womb and extra gestation outside the (00:41:03) womb. Now that means the mother's body, (00:41:05) the mother's skin, the mother's (00:41:07) heartbeat close to the baby for many (00:41:10) many many months. So when that doesn't (00:41:13) happen in in the US 25% of women have to (00:41:16) go back to work within two weeks of (00:41:18) giving birth which is a massive (00:41:21) abandonment they don't do it because (00:41:22) they want to they don't they they have (00:41:25) to do it for economic reasons it's a (00:41:27) massive abandonment of children so so (00:41:30) there's the birth trauma and its impacts (00:41:33) which then there's the mother's (00:41:36) depression and that has an impact on the (00:41:38) infant. So (00:41:40) people, kids whose mothers were (00:41:42) depressed postpartum have a higher risk (00:41:45) of (00:41:45) ADHD. And we can talk about why that's (00:41:48) the case. Why is that the case? Cuz all (00:41:50) three of my children have ADHD. (00:41:52) Well, I I can tell you what I The first (00:41:55) book I ever wrote, Scattered Minds, was (00:41:57) an ADHD after I was (00:41:59) diagnosed. And um we can talk about (00:42:02) that, but let me just say it now. That's (00:42:03) just the case. And we can discuss it. (00:42:08) They've done electro and sephiloggrams (00:42:11) on six-month old infants whose mother (00:42:13) was depressed and whose mother was not (00:42:15) depressed. You could tell from the eg of (00:42:17) the infant whose mother is depressed and (00:42:19) who is not. (00:42:21) Not because the depressed mother loves (00:42:23) the child any less or is any iota less (00:42:28) devoted than the non-depressed mother, (00:42:30) but because depress depressed mother (00:42:32) can't respond to the infant with the (00:42:35) same smiling u playful attuned (00:42:39) interaction which the child needs for (00:42:42) healthy brain development. It's a sacred (00:42:44) thing and and society needs to hold it (00:42:47) sacred. Now how mothers used to develop (00:42:50) or raise children is in the community (00:42:53) where they gave birth in a community (00:42:56) where they were with doulas where um no (00:43:00) mind you they didn't have the advantages (00:43:01) of modern medicine which again I'm not (00:43:03) dismissing I'm just talking about how we (00:43:05) evolved right and there was such a thing (00:43:08) as aloe mothering other mothers would (00:43:10) come and support the mother when the (00:43:12) mother needed to rest other women would (00:43:14) come and hold the baby (00:43:17) um and mothers are left very much on (00:43:19) their own in the society and that (00:43:22) depression in the mother then affects (00:43:25) the child's brain (00:43:26) development. Not only (00:43:29) that, given that we develop a sense of (00:43:33) ourselves based on how the adults look (00:43:35) at us when the mother or the parents (00:43:38) can't look at the child or they can't (00:43:40) hold the child again the child begins to (00:43:41) feel there's something wrong with them. (00:43:43) It feels like there's a million ways for (00:43:45) this to actually happen. Well, there is. (00:43:47) And I and I share the story because it's (00:43:49) true. I was a completely different (00:43:50) mother. Yeah. When I gave birth to our (00:43:53) second child, Kendall. Yeah. Just 19 (00:43:56) months later. Yeah. (00:43:58) And her birth was different. Yeah. And (00:44:01) Chris and I were different. And so I can (00:44:03) see how without any ill intention Yeah. (00:44:08) you are a very different parent. (00:44:10) Absolutely. And the child is a very (00:44:12) different child. And the child is born (00:44:13) with a different temperament. Correct. (00:44:15) So even so they they experience you (00:44:17) differently to start with you know. So (00:44:19) how do you like how does this sort of (00:44:22) unresolved trauma from childhood that I (00:44:26) would imagine you know a lot of us learn (00:44:28) about this as an adult and then we start (00:44:29) to recognize that this is an explanation (00:44:33) for a lot of the patterns of behavior (00:44:35) that you don't really like but you're (00:44:37) not quite sure how to get control of (00:44:40) them. How does unresolved trauma impact (00:44:43) the way that you deal with stress as an (00:44:44) adult? So, um the body's stress (00:44:48) regulation apparatus which is (00:44:51) physiological. Mhm. It has to do with (00:44:53) the connection between certain uh brain (00:44:56) centers um down to the adrenal gland (00:44:59) which is the stress gland. You might (00:45:01) say no child is born with stress (00:45:04) regulation. Infants don't know how to (00:45:06) regulate their stresses. Well, neither (00:45:07) do adults. Well, as you say, as you say (00:45:10) in your book, most adults are eight (00:45:11) years old, if that, but I thought that (00:45:13) was pretty generous. This might have (00:45:15) been four, three or four years old. (00:45:18) Um, well, stress like other functions (00:45:23) has to (00:45:25) develop so that when something stressful (00:45:28) happens, I know how to face it without (00:45:30) being overwhelmed. (00:45:32) And that depends on the development of (00:45:33) these brain circuits and receptors for (00:45:37) brain chemicals. (00:45:38) Now trauma interferes with the (00:45:41) development of the body's stress (00:45:42) regulation (00:45:43) apparatus so that become adults and we (00:45:46) don't know how to handle stress and then (00:45:49) we seek escape. So one of the ways that (00:45:51) people escape from stress is addictive (00:45:52) behaviors. You know, for example, so if (00:45:55) you do if you talk about or talk to (00:45:57) addicts, if you I look at my own (00:45:59) addictive (00:46:00) behaviors. Even if I go quote unquote (00:46:03) sober for a (00:46:05) while and then I relapse, what usually (00:46:07) happened is that I got stressed and then (00:46:10) I reach for that addictive outlet as a (00:46:13) way of soothing my stress. So that's how (00:46:15) it shows up. But but physiologically it (00:46:17) shows up by a disregulation of the (00:46:20) body's stress regulation apparatus. So (00:46:23) there not just psychological, we're (00:46:24) talking physiology. And you can you've (00:46:27) done the studies in in laboratory (00:46:29) animals where the way the mother handles (00:46:33) that infant rat pup in the first few (00:46:36) days of life will have an impact on the (00:46:39) adult rat's capacity to handle stress. (00:46:42) And if you take the rats, by the way, (00:46:45) whose mothers don't handle them as well, (00:46:48) and you put them with mothers who do, (00:46:50) their brains develop normally. So it's (00:46:53) not a genetic effect. It's what's called (00:46:55) an epigenetic effect. It's the (00:46:57) environment acting on the genes. Which (00:46:59) is why we come back to your original (00:47:01) point. No human being is damaged goods. (00:47:03) No. That the good news is that if you (00:47:05) can recognize that your response to (00:47:08) stress Yeah. and traumatic situations (00:47:11) and overwhelming emotional situations. (00:47:14) Yeah. Is something that you can identify (00:47:17) and change. Yeah. That that's what the (00:47:20) opportunity is here in terms of being (00:47:22) able to heal and resolve trauma. (00:47:24) Absolutely. And especially if you begin (00:47:27) by recognizing that it's not your fault. (00:47:30) There's nothing wrong with you. You (00:47:31) know, when I think about my husband who (00:47:35) absolutely experienced trauma by having (00:47:38) a dad that was a workaholic. Yeah. And (00:47:40) never around and narcissistic (00:47:42) personality style and lots of drinking (00:47:46) and stress in the marriage. Right. And (00:47:48) his response to stress is to just shut (00:47:52) down. Yeah. The man goes silent and (00:47:54) stoic. And in our marriage, one of the (00:47:57) things that have come up a lot, which (00:47:59) you can direct line to his response to (00:48:03) his own childhood, is he doesn't really (00:48:06) know what his needs are because they (00:48:08) weren't met. That's right. And for him, (00:48:11) it took a long time to call that trauma (00:48:14) from his childhood because he's like, (00:48:16) "Well, I had food. My parents were (00:48:18) there. I I know went to school. It's not (00:48:23) like they beat me." I know. And for me, (00:48:26) I am the opposite. I'm a reactor. Like (00:48:29) I'm a human volcano. Yeah. And when I (00:48:32) get disregulated or triggered or upset (00:48:36) or overwhelmed, I'm like, and I and it's (00:48:40) even though I know this. Yeah. And I've (00:48:43) been working on it and I am a completely (00:48:48) different human being. I feel that way (00:48:51) over the last three years. Yeah, I still (00:48:54) erupt. (00:48:56) Well, join the club and well well so how (00:48:59) do you personally navigate your daily (00:49:03) challenges and when you get overwhelmed (00:49:05) by stress? So let me say something about (00:49:09) Chris first if I may. Yes, please. When (00:49:12) he says that I wasn't beaten or we (00:49:15) weren't starving, I had food and (00:49:17) therefore I wasn't (00:49:18) traumatized. Here's what I would say to (00:49:20) him. So listen, Chris, let's take one of (00:49:22) your (00:49:24) kids and let's say you were an (00:49:27) alcoholic, which means that you came (00:49:29) home in different moods all the time and (00:49:31) the kids didn't couldn't rely on who dad (00:49:32) was going to be for one minute into the (00:49:34) next and your mom was constantly (00:49:36) stressed and you and and and if you were (00:49:39) this way, do you think your kids (00:49:41) wouldn't be hurt by (00:49:43) that? So just plug your kid into the (00:49:46) situation that you're in. You see how (00:49:48) and if one of your kids came to you and (00:49:50) said, "Dad, I I don't like it that (00:49:53) you're drinking and you're behaving this (00:49:54) way or that way and and you're a (00:49:56) workaholic like I never around." Would (00:49:58) you say to your kid, "Well, there's food (00:49:59) on the table. What are you complaining (00:50:01) about?" You know, but I did. Yeah. No, (00:50:04) that happened in our house like 15 years (00:50:06) ago. Okay. And he felt bad and I was an (00:50:10) Oh, okay. Again, more trauma (00:50:13) and more pain passing on to Yeah. our (00:50:17) kids. Yeah. I'm just saying that when (00:50:20) people look at their own childhoods, (00:50:22) they kind of minimize. Why do we do (00:50:24) that? Because it was too painful to (00:50:26) accept in the first (00:50:28) place. So that people dissociate and (00:50:31) they disconnect from their bodies and (00:50:33) their feelings. Now you said that he had (00:50:34) a hard time feeling what he feels. That (00:50:37) that itself is a trauma impact. It's a (00:50:40) protection. It's not a (00:50:43) flaw. It's not a damage. It's an (00:50:47) adaptation. If I was hurting you right (00:50:49) now and you couldn't escape and you (00:50:52) couldn't fight back and you couldn't ask (00:50:54) for (00:50:55) help, then dissociating and not (00:50:58) experiencing your feelings would be your (00:51:00) only (00:51:01) protection. But then it gets wired into (00:51:04) you and then all your life you go (00:51:07) through not knowing what you feel and (00:51:09) not knowing what your needs are. So (00:51:11) again, it's an adaptation. That's what (00:51:13) I'm saying is that nobody's damaged (00:51:15) goods. These are just adaptations. The (00:51:18) abnormality is not in the individual. (00:51:20) It's in the circumstances to which the (00:51:22) individual had to respond that way. So (00:51:25) that his response or yours or mine for (00:51:28) that matter were perfectly normal (00:51:30) responses to abnormal circumstances. I (00:51:32) say abnormal in a sense circumstances (00:51:35) that did not meet human needs. One of (00:51:38) the things that's coming to mind (00:51:40) is thinking back to my own life and the (00:51:45) moment where I first bumped into your (00:51:48) work and I learned that the seemingly (00:51:53) little things created a lasting impact. (00:51:56) Yeah. and that even though I wasn't to (00:51:59) blame for the emotional volatility or (00:52:03) the emotional (00:52:05) shutdown in my parents when I was (00:52:07) growing up that it impacted me. It was (00:52:11) real and it was my (00:52:13) responsibility to heal and to decide (00:52:18) whether or not I wanted to do the work (00:52:19) to change the way that it impacted me (00:52:23) cuz it did have a massive impact on my (00:52:25) behaviors. Constantly feeling on edge, (00:52:28) people pleasing, anxiety, ADHD, drinking (00:52:32) too much, chasing success as a way to (00:52:35) prove that I was worthy of something and (00:52:37) to make other people happy. Yes, it was (00:52:40) everywhere. Yeah, it honestly just (00:52:42) defined how I ran on default. And I (00:52:46) remember the moment though when I (00:52:48) started to truly accept the fact that (00:52:50) these were all indications of trauma. (00:52:53) Yeah. And that if I wanted my life to (00:52:55) feel different. Yeah. That I needed to (00:52:59) lean into everything that you're saying. (00:53:01) Yeah. And I felt a lot of conflict about (00:53:05) that moment because I felt guilty for (00:53:09) identifying it that way because I know (00:53:10) my parents were just doing the best that (00:53:12) they did. They did. And that there was a (00:53:16) lot that I didn't remember. Yeah. (00:53:19) And I'm wondering if you could just talk (00:53:21) to the person who's listening who is (00:53:24) having that awakening for the first time (00:53:27) where they're really accepting (00:53:30) that some of the behaviors and the (00:53:33) negative selft talk and the anxiety (00:53:36) that this is a result of experiences (00:53:39) that you had as a child where you were (00:53:41) not given the things that you needed. (00:53:44) Mel there's a lot in what you said. (00:53:45) Okay. F said you you behaved that way by (00:53:48) default. There's a difference between (00:53:50) default and fault. (00:53:53) Okay, default you didn't know you were (00:53:54) doing it. You didn't know any better. (00:53:57) You were just following patterns that (00:53:59) were programmed into you. But it's not (00:54:01) your fault. Okay, there's a huge (00:54:03) difference. Important (00:54:05) distinction. Number one. Number (00:54:08) two, it's never the child's job to make (00:54:10) the parents happy or to create peace in (00:54:13) the family. And a child invariably (00:54:16) fails, which instills a huge sense of (00:54:18) guilt and (00:54:20) inadequacy for not having fulfilled a (00:54:22) task that never ought to be in yours, (00:54:24) never should have been yours in the (00:54:25) first place. It's a reversal of roles (00:54:29) cuz whose job it is to hold who (00:54:32) emotionally to create (00:54:34) peace. And so when a child is forced (00:54:38) into that (00:54:39) position again as an adaptation to (00:54:41) maintain a relationship with the (00:54:43) parents, she's given an impossible task (00:54:45) that she's bound to fail at and bound to (00:54:47) feel shame over it. Which means that any (00:54:50) shame and guilt that you feel is (00:54:52) completely undeserved. When we start to (00:54:54) noticing these patterns, we can start (00:54:56) asking ourselves (00:54:57) questions. But it depends on how we ask (00:55:01) them. So I could say why am I behaving (00:55:04) this (00:55:05) way or is that a question? (00:55:08) No, it's an indictment. It's an (00:55:10) indictment. But I said hm I wonder why (00:55:13) I'm behaving that way. So we need to (00:55:16) begin to develop (00:55:17) that compassionate curiosity towards the (00:55:21) self where we start looking not to why (00:55:24) did I not this indictment as you say but (00:55:27) genuine (00:55:28) curiosity and from that perspective (00:55:33) everything pretty much everything (00:55:34) anybody thinks is wrong with them is (00:55:36) actually begins as an (00:55:38) adaptation or it begins as a failure of (00:55:41) development because the conditions for (00:55:42) development were not adequate. (00:55:46) And so then we can (00:55:49) understand now it's not a question of (00:55:51) being (00:55:52) victims. That's the last thing we want (00:55:54) to do is to uh foster victim mentality. (00:55:56) They did this to me and now I can't help (00:55:58) it. No, that happened and it's your (00:56:01) responsibility and it's your capacity to (00:56:04) change that now. So you have to drop the (00:56:05) victim mode altogether. But that doesn't (00:56:08) mean that we don't recognize what (00:56:09) happened. M so to say that stuff (00:56:11) happened to you and I get the sense that (00:56:14) something big happened that you haven't (00:56:16) articulated yet but something big (00:56:17) happened to you at some point. Um to (00:56:20) recognize that is not to say that you're (00:56:22) a victim. It's just to say that whatever (00:56:24) happened had certain impacts and (00:56:28) fostered certain adaptations on your (00:56:29) part that made you behave and undermine (00:56:32) your development in certain way. Oh, (00:56:33) I'll share it with you. When I was in (00:56:35) the fourth grade, I woke up in the (00:56:36) middle of the night on a family vacation (00:56:39) and an older kid was on top of me. Okay. (00:56:42) All right. And that had (00:56:45) massive implications on my life. When (00:56:48) were we? Uh I was fourth grade. Yeah. (00:56:52) And I was sound asleep. So I was in a (00:56:54) safe space. Wake up to an older kid on (00:56:58) top of me who was fondling me. Okay. (00:57:02) And in the scheme of things that can (00:57:05) happen, it was here I go to dismissing (00:57:09) it. You're looking at me. You're like, (00:57:10) "No, no, no. Don't go there." Okay. (00:57:12) Okay. But I like It's almost like I'm (00:57:14) shaming myself for having trauma about (00:57:16) this. No. Can I unpack this for you a (00:57:18) little bit? Sure. Are you open to it? (00:57:20) Oh, I'm so open to it. Yeah. Okay. (00:57:23) Here's a question I'm going to ask you. (00:57:25) Okay. How did you feel when this (00:57:26) happened? (00:57:28) I felt very confused and scared. (00:57:30) Confused and scared. Good enough. Who (00:57:32) did you speak to about it? No one. (00:57:36) Okay. Now, if something like this (00:57:38) happened to one of your (00:57:40) daughters in grade was it grade four? (00:57:43) Yeah. Okay. If one of these things (00:57:44) happened to um Sawyer or Kendall in (00:57:48) grade four. And if they didn't talk to (00:57:50) you, how would you explain that? (00:57:55) I'd (00:57:56) feel How would I explain it? I would (00:57:58) explain it. And I'm about to go (00:58:00) intellectual. I personally as the mother (00:58:02) would feel heartbroken. I understand how (00:58:04) you'd feel, but really I'm not asking (00:58:05) how you feel. I'm asking how you'd (00:58:07) explain it. Why wasn't my daughter (00:58:09) talking to me about feeling scared and (00:58:11) confused and (00:58:13) violated? Why? Because she didn't feel (00:58:15) safe talking to me. That's the (00:58:18) trauma. The trauma began before that (00:58:22) happened. Cuz if you had been able to (00:58:24) talk to your parents and they would have (00:58:27) said, "This is awful. You must feel (00:58:29) terrible. Come here, let me hold you and (00:58:31) let's deal with the situation. So the (00:58:34) trauma is not only in what happened is (00:58:35) that you were so alone when it happened. (00:58:37) And that aloneeness was yours before (00:58:40) this traumatic event ever occurred. As a (00:58:43) matter of fact, abusers can tell with (00:58:47) almost laserike accuracy who's defended (00:58:51) and protected and who's not, who can be (00:58:53) victimized and who cannot. So that your (00:58:56) primary traumatic event was not this (00:58:59) event. Not that this wasn't traumatic, (00:59:02) of course it was hugely traumatic, but (00:59:04) it became hugely traumatic cuz you were (00:59:06) alone and that sense of lack of (00:59:09) safety and and and lack of protection. (00:59:13) Furthermore, you may not even have (00:59:15) wanted to bother your parents cuz (00:59:16) already they're already stressed enough (00:59:18) already. You were protecting them. (00:59:20) That's the primary traumatic situation. (00:59:23) I've never looked at it like that. Yeah. (00:59:26) Do you see that when I Oh, a thousand%. (00:59:29) And I can also see when I think about (00:59:31) experiences that friends have shared (00:59:33) with me where they did say something. (00:59:35) Yeah. And then there was denial. There's (00:59:37) dismissal in or dismissal or we're not (00:59:40) going to tell anybody or this stays (00:59:42) within us. Yeah. Or even if they then go (00:59:47) after the person and confront it, it (00:59:49) blows up and somehow you're to blame. (00:59:51) And so I can see how That's right. And (00:59:54) and and of course when you shove it (00:59:56) down, you then think you've done (00:59:58) something wrong. And that was the other (00:59:59) thing that happened for me is that I (01:00:01) felt like I had done something wrong. (01:00:03) That's one of the impacts of trauma is (01:00:05) that the shame based view of the self (01:00:07) people start blaming themselves that (01:00:09) somehow you invited it or deserved it or (01:00:11) you didn't fight back hard enough (01:00:13) or which if you didn't was also self-p (01:00:16) protection. (01:00:17) Well, I think that was one of the (01:00:20) original moments that at least that I (01:00:22) remember where I literally left my body (01:00:24) and disassociated which was a defense. (01:00:27) Yes. So again, it's an adaptation. So (01:00:31) that's what I would say about that (01:00:33) incident. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. (01:00:36) But again, the problem is in the (01:00:38) environment in in a lack of being held (01:00:41) and being seen. So there's nothing and (01:00:44) then in your in your initial impulse (01:00:47) when you began a narrative about how (01:00:49) it's not as bad as what you know. Right. (01:00:51) Right. Right. Would you say that to your (01:00:53) your great (01:00:54) if your daughter comes to you and says (01:00:56) you it's not so bad. Think of all the (01:00:58) kids that are you know being beaten or (01:01:00) you know so that lack of self-compassion (01:01:03) is one of the ways that trauma shows up. (01:01:05) And that's why I'm saying the healing (01:01:07) needs to begin with some compassionate (01:01:09) curiosity towards the self. not why but (01:01:13) why. It's a totally different (01:01:15) conversation. (01:01:17) And then I can also see and take (01:01:20) responsibility and have a lot of (01:01:21) compassion for how my volatility (01:01:24) emotionally. (01:01:26) Absolutely. Just pass that on to my (01:01:27) daughters. Absolutely. And so there are (01:01:30) things that happened to them that in the (01:01:32) time they didn't feel comfortable coming (01:01:34) to me. Yeah. Yeah. Because the exact (01:01:36) same thing. Exactly. And you know, it it (01:01:40) of course just makes me (01:01:43) it it makes (01:01:46) me sad that I didn't know this sooner. (01:01:52) Yeah. But I feel very grateful for your (01:01:55) work because I know it now (01:02:01) and so do our children and so does my (01:02:04) husband. And that knowledge gives you (01:02:08) the the ability to truly address the (01:02:13) things that happened and the response (01:02:16) that happened in your body. Yeah. And (01:02:18) how that has created these default (01:02:21) patterns and this inability to manage (01:02:23) stress or emotion or conflict. Yeah. in (01:02:27) a way that (01:02:30) is healthy and that keeps you connected (01:02:34) to yourself instead of constantly (01:02:35) abandoning yourself and feeling (01:02:37) disappointed in yourself and shaming (01:02:39) yourself. And so while I can reflect on (01:02:42) that with a lot of sadness and grief (01:02:44) Yeah. and regret. Yeah. I feel more (01:02:48) empowered honestly. Well, that's the (01:02:50) whole point about what's possible. (01:02:51) That's the whole point is that we all (01:02:53) want to be free, but as long as we're (01:02:55) running on default mode and we're just (01:02:58) reacting to stuff, there's no freedom in (01:02:59) it. We're actually like puppets on a (01:03:01) string. And if you remember Pinocchio, (01:03:04) you know, when he becomes a real boy, he (01:03:06) says how silly, how foolish I was when I (01:03:08) was a puppet where we're all puppets in (01:03:11) that sense. As long as these traumatic (01:03:13) impacts are running our lives, we're (01:03:15) puppets on a string and those strings (01:03:17) are unconscious. So it's a whole thing (01:03:18) about becoming really free and that real (01:03:21) freedom looks at depends on looking at (01:03:23) how it was and getting in touch with our (01:03:26) capacity to take responsibility now you (01:03:28) know. So what really the work is for all (01:03:31) of us is how to become free so we can be (01:03:33) in the present moment connected to (01:03:35) ourselves. The great trauma psychologist (01:03:38) Peter Lavine says no longer living under (01:03:41) the tyranny of the past (01:03:44) and it's totally available. It's totally (01:03:46) possible. It is totally possible. Yeah. (01:03:49) And it's possible for you. It's possible (01:03:50) for your children. It's possible for (01:03:52) anybody that you know and love. It's (01:03:54) possible for your parents if they accept (01:03:56) the invitation to look at themselves if (01:03:57) they if they choose it. Yeah. Yes. What (01:04:00) is the first step? Is it asking the (01:04:03) question like why? Like just being (01:04:05) curious with a level of compassion like (01:04:07) why am I like this? Because if I reflect (01:04:09) on your (01:04:10) question that's what happened for me. I (01:04:12) started to say to myself it's no longer (01:04:14) tolerable for me to operate like this. I (01:04:16) don't want to be this person. I don't (01:04:18) want to feel like this. I don't want to (01:04:21) feel disconnected from other people. I (01:04:24) don't want to have this level of anger (01:04:26) inside me. So that's actually the first (01:04:28) step is to recognize one's suffering (01:04:31) rather than taking it for granted which (01:04:33) incidentally is the Buddha's first (01:04:36) teaching is that life is duka like is (01:04:39) life is brings suffering you know and (01:04:42) then the second question is okay (01:04:46) why you know so it does begin with (01:04:49) recognizing the suffering rather than (01:04:50) denying it and running away from it and (01:04:53) there's many ways to run away from our (01:04:55) pain (01:04:56) um through certain behaviors and (01:04:58) addictions and the point is stop running (01:05:02) from your (01:05:03) pain. Accept that it's there and be (01:05:05) curious about it without blaming (01:05:08) yourself for it. So those are the first (01:05:10) steps and then you ask for help. I mean (01:05:12) the if help is available the natural (01:05:16) we're born seeking help. You've never (01:05:19) you've never met a one-year-old in one (01:05:21) day old infant who doesn't know ask for (01:05:23) help. (01:05:24) But let me ask you a question. How easy (01:05:26) it has been going back for you to ask (01:05:29) for help. (01:05:31) You mean if I think about when I was in (01:05:34) fourth grade um then and and and even (01:05:37) decades later, are you are can you ask (01:05:40) for help or is that a pro challenge for (01:05:41) you? Well, I ask for a lot of help now. (01:05:44) No, I don't mean now. I mean I mean I (01:05:46) mean before your transformation. (01:05:48) Absolutely. Like like when you just said (01:05:50) that Yeah. I had this epiphany. Yeah. (01:05:54) That I've always felt like I got to do (01:05:56) it myself. Exactly. I've always felt (01:05:58) like it's on me. I've always felt like I (01:06:01) just I'll just take this on. I'll just (01:06:03) do this. Like, which was an adaptation (01:06:05) cuz there was no help available. (01:06:08) But you were, you know what's (01:06:09) interesting? So, sorry. Go ahead. Is you (01:06:12) just said there's no help available and (01:06:13) I felt this knee-jerk need. Yeah. To (01:06:16) protect your parents. Yes. I (01:06:18) understand. Because I do know like I I (01:06:22) mean I know my mom well enough to know (01:06:24) that she would have picked up a shovel (01:06:25) and probably clocked the kid into next (01:06:27) week. Like I Yeah. Yeah. That's not what (01:06:29) you needed your mother to do. You needed (01:06:32) your mother to say, "Oh gee, that's (01:06:33) awful. Come here. Let's talk about it." (01:06:37) You weren't born not knowing how to ask (01:06:39) for help. You were born with a supreme (01:06:42) capacity to ask for help. (01:06:45) I mean as we know any infant knows how (01:06:48) to ask for help. So something educates (01:06:51) educates it out of us. Something compels (01:06:54) us to suppress our capac capacity to (01:06:57) seek help. So if the first step is (01:06:59) recognizing our suffering and the second (01:07:01) step is getting curious about it. Then (01:07:03) the third step is I need some help here. (01:07:09) It's beautiful. (01:07:11) Well, it's only the simple truth. (01:07:15) It is so simple when you lay it out like (01:07:18) that. Yeah. And it's also so freeing. (01:07:21) Yeah. One of the things that you write (01:07:22) about that I think is so important that (01:07:24) I would love to have you explain is this (01:07:27) idea that we are naturally wired and (01:07:30) have a fundamental need for joyfulness, (01:07:32) playfulness, creativity, and that we (01:07:34) sacrifice that. Can you talk more about (01:07:38) that? (01:07:39) Well, so there's (01:07:42) um a book written by a paliative care (01:07:45) nurse in Australia and I used to work in (01:07:47) paliative care and it's called the top (01:07:50) five regrets of dying people and she's (01:07:53) talking to people who died before their (01:07:54) time you know from cancer usually. One (01:07:57) of the regrets is is that they worked (01:07:59) too hard they didn't play enough. (01:08:01) Now playfulness is built into our brains (01:08:05) all mammals play. Bear cubs play, lion (01:08:09) cubs play, uh, puppies, kittens, they (01:08:12) all play. We're wired for play. Why? (01:08:15) Because play is essential for a number (01:08:17) of things. One is essential for brain (01:08:19) development. It's much more important (01:08:22) for brain development than academic (01:08:24) learning. I'm talking about (01:08:25) scientifically, you know, brain (01:08:27) physiologically. So play is important. (01:08:29) Play is also important to form (01:08:31) relationships cuz in play you can kind (01:08:34) of rough house a bit but you're not (01:08:36) actually being (01:08:38) enemies. So you're making friends that (01:08:40) way. So play is essential with the Pooh (01:08:43) which is one of my all-time favorite (01:08:45) books. Why is it one of your all-time (01:08:47) favorite books? Well, well, it's so (01:08:50) playful and uh but at the very end, and (01:08:54) I know you're married to Chris Robbins, (01:08:55) which is Christopher Robin, you know, I (01:08:58) mean, anyway, there's a passage at the (01:09:00) end of the book, W the Pooh, where (01:09:03) Christopher, the the boy, by the way, (01:09:06) him and his father had a terrible (01:09:07) relationship, which is a whole other (01:09:09) issue. I'm talking about the real (01:09:10) Christopher Robin. Um, but the fictional (01:09:13) Christopher Robin is now growing up and (01:09:16) he has to go to school, which means he (01:09:18) won't be able to play with his animals (01:09:20) anymore. And he's trying to explain this (01:09:23) to these animals, including Winnie the (01:09:27) Bear. And the book ends with this (01:09:29) statement that I'll paraphrase where it (01:09:30) says that they go off walking together (01:09:34) hand in hand. And the book ends with, (01:09:38) "But whatever they do and wherever they (01:09:40) go in the ent in the enchanted forest, a (01:09:42) little boy and his bear will always be (01:09:44) playing together." And that passage as (01:09:47) an adult would bring me to (01:09:50) tears (01:09:51) because as a kid, as an infant, I wasn't (01:09:55) played with. My mother was way too (01:09:56) terrorized and depressed to play with (01:09:58) me. And and kids peekab-boo. Play starts (01:10:03) so early. It's essential for our mental (01:10:06) health. It's essential for our brain (01:10:09) development. So these poor people who (01:10:11) were looking back on their lives and (01:10:13) saying, "I wish I had played more." Play (01:10:15) is just essential. And I have to say (01:10:18) that one of the things that has kept our (01:10:20) marriage going 55 years now is that we (01:10:22) play so well together and we're just (01:10:24) playing all the time when we're not (01:10:26) fighting, which which by the way is long (01:10:29) gone. Not long gone, but gone. Um, so, (01:10:32) um, play is play is just essential. And (01:10:35) you weren't played with, so did you play (01:10:37) with your kids? It's interesting. I have (01:10:39) two brothers. They're both intuitively (01:10:42) playful with young kids. They just know (01:10:45) how to be with them, how to pretend, how (01:10:48) to just get into their space. I watch (01:10:50) them and I don't know how the hell they (01:10:52) do it cuz I didn't know how to play with (01:10:54) my kids. Um, not really. I I I I kind of (01:10:57) faked it. But I I always kept waiting (01:11:00) waiting for them to develop minds that I (01:11:03) could engage with (01:11:04) verbally cuz that on that verbal level (01:11:08) I'm very comfortable. On the play level, (01:11:10) I wasn't. I was rather (01:11:12) stiff. I wish I was a grandfather. I'm (01:11:16) not yet because I'd learn how to play. (01:11:18) I'd let that infant teach me how to (01:11:19) play. But no, I didn't know how to play. (01:11:22) I didn't know how to play. (01:11:23) I I really lacked that because it wasn't (01:11:28) given to me when I was small. My (01:11:30) brothers had it now. They grew up under (01:11:32) a very different circumstances. They (01:11:34) didn't have the same parents, you know, (01:11:36) in the way we talked about it today. So, (01:11:38) they know how to play. I don't But kids, (01:11:41) I mean, well, a very surprising insight (01:11:44) for me as I've been working to resolve (01:11:49) Yeah. issues from my past is noticing (01:11:52) that I'm a very warm person. Oh, but I'm (01:11:54) not affectionate. Uhhuh. And it's this (01:11:58) epiphany (01:12:00) of going in more for the hug, being more (01:12:04) physical in terms of embracing my kids. (01:12:07) Mhm. And it's something that I (01:12:11) definitely did not receive. And I come (01:12:14) from a long line of farmers and hard (01:12:16) workers. Yeah. and pull up your, you (01:12:19) know, big girl panties and let's move (01:12:21) on. And that's the way that my mom is, (01:12:24) even though she's warm and amazing and (01:12:26) loving, but not physically embracing. (01:12:30) And so, I really relate to that because (01:12:32) it's something as an adult that I (01:12:34) recognize that I truly want to change. (01:12:37) Yeah. And it's takes effort. It takes (01:12:40) effort for me to go, "Oh, I noticed I'm (01:12:41) just standing here. I got to put my arm (01:12:43) around." Just gone to five. (01:12:46) That's true. And then hug somebody. Um (01:12:49) the um I used to be hug phobic. Really? (01:12:53) And I embraced you when you walked in. (01:12:55) Yeah, you did. But I honest to God when (01:12:57) people in a room would start hugging (01:12:58) each other, I'd stand there like this. (01:13:00) And is that a response? It's a response (01:13:03) to really not being held. And it's also (01:13:06) um a kind of a protective (01:13:09) shell. I don't want to make myself that (01:13:11) vulnerable. I don't want to open up. (01:13:13) Yeah. What might be some surprising (01:13:16) adult (01:13:17) behaviors that are an indication of (01:13:20) unresolved trauma from your childhood? (01:13:28) Well, sometimes (01:13:31) it's attributes and behaviors that the (01:13:35) world respects you for. (01:13:38) So great success can sometimes be an (01:13:40) outcome of childhood trauma cuz you're (01:13:43) working so hard to prove something to (01:13:44) the world. Like I talked about my own (01:13:45) workism and and you know cuz I had to (01:13:48) prove that I was important. Now that (01:13:49) made me a very successful respected (01:13:54) physician from the outside and the (01:13:57) inside different story and in my family (01:14:01) a different situation altogether. (01:14:05) um people who are very (01:14:08) attractive and who put a lot of effort (01:14:12) into being very attractive, the world (01:14:13) admires them, but it's very often, like (01:14:18) I said before, they're trying to attract (01:14:19) the attention they should that should (01:14:21) have been their birthright and they (01:14:23) don't feel good (01:14:25) if they're not attractive. And you see (01:14:26) this (01:14:28) uh as people age, this desperation to (01:14:30) keep looking (01:14:32) young because um they're not acceptable (01:14:35) the way they are. So it sometimes it (01:14:37) shows up in success in what the world (01:14:40) considers success and other ways like (01:14:43) you talked about kind of not being the (01:14:46) kind of person that is open to hugging (01:14:48) or my husband shuts down. Well, my (01:14:51) response to (01:14:54) um a sense (01:14:57) of disruption in my relationship with my (01:15:00) wife is to shut down. So, I just, you (01:15:02) know, go sullen and uh (01:15:04) non-communicative. I mean, I talk about (01:15:06) that in the first chapter of the book. (01:15:07) This is, you know, (01:15:08) I I arrive home from a speaking trip (01:15:12) and she texts me that she hasn't lived (01:15:15) home yet to pick me up from the airplane (01:15:17) and I go into a sullen withdrawal stage (01:15:20) because I'm reliving my abandonment (01:15:23) unconsciously, but I don't realize it. (01:15:25) And when I saw my mother again after (01:15:28) that five or 6 week separation, I didn't (01:15:30) even look at her for several days, which (01:15:33) is the typical response of the child (01:15:35) because the child's brain says you were (01:15:38) so hurt when you were abandoned that you (01:15:40) will not open yourself up again. So your (01:15:44) husband is exhibiting the same thing (01:15:46) that that has been very dominant problem (01:15:50) in my relationship in my marriage is my (01:15:52) tendency to shut down. (01:15:55) uh in response to any sense of hurt even (01:15:58) if the hurt has nothing to do with the (01:16:00) present moment but it's a re triggering (01:16:02) of some old wound. (01:16:06) You're so amazing. What are your parting (01:16:08) words? (01:16:09) You know what comes up for me is that (01:16:12) beautiful movie um with Robin Williams (01:16:14) and uh Matt Damon where Goodwill (01:16:17) Hunting. Goodwill Hunting here in (01:16:19) Boston. Yeah, that's right. where the (01:16:22) psychologist Robin Williams grabs this (01:16:25) very dysfunctional, (01:16:28) disregulated client paid by Matt Damon (01:16:31) and he says, "It's not your (01:16:34) fault." We can only get that. That's the (01:16:37) biggest takeaway I would say. Just get (01:16:40) it. It's not your fault, but there's (01:16:42) reason for it. It can be worked through. (01:16:45) Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you (01:16:49) for being here, for sharing all of your (01:16:53) wisdom and your research and for not (01:16:57) only validating Mhm. our experience, but (01:17:00) giving us three simple things we can do (01:17:05) to reconnect with ourselves and truly (01:17:09) take our power back. (01:17:11) You're amazing. My pleasure. Thank you. (01:17:13) You're welcome. Yeah. And for you on (01:17:15) YouTube, I just wanted to thank you for (01:17:18) watching all the way to the end, for (01:17:19) choosing to watch something that is so (01:17:21) important to your happiness, to your (01:17:23) health, and for sharing this. And I also (01:17:25) want to thank you for hitting subscribe. (01:17:27) One of my goals is that 50% of the (01:17:29) people that watch this uh YouTube (01:17:31) channel that are subscribers to the (01:17:34) channel because it really supports our (01:17:35) team and it tells me that you love this (01:17:38) content and it helps us continue to (01:17:39) bring it to you. And I know you're (01:17:41) thinking, "Oh my gosh, this was so (01:17:42) incredible. What should I watch next? (01:17:45) This is the video that you should watch (01:17:46) next. You're going to love it and I'm (01:17:48) going to be waiting for you when you hit (01:17:49) play.