WHAT TEENAGERS NEED (And How To Provide It) | Lisa Damour, PhD x Rich Roll Podcast (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) the single most powerful force for (00:00:03) adolescent mental health is strong (00:00:04) relationships with caring adults (00:00:07) adolescence has always been a difficult (00:00:09) phase of life but today's teenagers are (00:00:12) navigating a world that is vastly (00:00:14) different from that of their parents (00:00:15) teens are experiencing a mental health (00:00:18) crisis according to a new CDC survey 42 (00:00:21) percent of high school students reported (00:00:22) feeling persistent sadness or (00:00:24) hopelessness 31 percent of girls and (00:00:26) young women have symptoms of anxiety in (00:00:28) the decade before the pandemic we were (00:00:30) seeing Rising rates of anxiety and (00:00:32) depression and then of course the (00:00:34) pandemic did not help (00:00:36) so how do we equip teens emotionally (00:00:39) with the tools they need to navigate our (00:00:41) complex and ever-changing World well (00:00:44) here to help us answer this question is (00:00:46) psychologists and CBS News contributor (00:00:48) Lisa Lisa is a Yale educated (00:00:51) psychotherapist with a doctorate in (00:00:53) Clinical Psychology from the University (00:00:55) of Michigan who specializes in education (00:00:58) and Child Development she is the author (00:01:01) of three New York Times bestsellers (00:01:03) untangled under pressure and the (00:01:07) emotional lives of teenagers the latter (00:01:09) being the subject of today's exchange (00:01:11) curiosity plus empathy or just empathy (00:01:14) is I would say overwhelmingly the most (00:01:17) effective and also wanted response when (00:01:20) teenagers come our way with their (00:01:22) distress today we explore the issues (00:01:25) that are most pressing for today's teens (00:01:27) we talk about the impact of social media (00:01:29) mental health the pressure to succeed (00:01:32) academically and professionally and the (00:01:35) struggles that come trying to fit in and (00:01:36) find a sense of belonging but most (00:01:38) importantly Lisa provides concrete (00:01:40) actionable strategies for supporting (00:01:43) teens who feel the mercy of their (00:01:44) emotions so they can become more (00:01:47) psychologically aware and more skilled (00:01:49) at managing their feelings and and how (00:01:51) to approach friction at home (00:01:53) before we dive in though this episode is (00:01:55) brought to you today by Roca I get asked (00:01:57) fairly consistently about the glasses (00:01:59) that you see me wearing on the show well (00:02:01) the answer is Roca specifically these (00:02:04) are the Hamilton frames I love them (00:02:06) they're super high performance very (00:02:08) light great Optics and they offer tons (00:02:11) of great Styles but the main thing is (00:02:12) they never ever slip off my face ever (00:02:14) and I'll be sharing a bit more about (00:02:17) Roka later but with that please enjoy me (00:02:21) and Lisa D'Amour (00:02:26) well Lisa it's an absolute Delight to (00:02:28) have you back on the podcast the first (00:02:32) time you were on was in April of 2019 so (00:02:36) a lot has happened in everybody's lives (00:02:39) uh especially in the lives of our our (00:02:42) precious teenagers (00:02:43) um and so you are here today to expound (00:02:46) upon how we can better understand our (00:02:49) teens and guide them parent them through (00:02:52) what has been a very difficult period (00:02:54) and what is a very challenging period (00:02:57) period for teens you know throughout the (00:03:01) history of human beings right but there (00:03:04) does seem to have been something rather (00:03:06) acute and different about the last (00:03:08) couple years that we weathered and you (00:03:10) know your book uh has been an amazing (00:03:13) resource to me as somebody who's (00:03:14) parenting an older teen and a younger (00:03:17) teen at the moment and it's that thing (00:03:19) where just when you think you've got it (00:03:21) figured out something happens and you (00:03:23) feel completely at a loss to how to you (00:03:26) know start of manage the situation and (00:03:28) so the book has been a real TouchDown (00:03:31) for me and a great service to many (00:03:33) people I'm sure so thank you for writing (00:03:35) it thank you for saying that and in (00:03:37) getting kind of ready to to talk to you (00:03:39) today I came across the uh (00:03:42) the the New York Times review of your (00:03:43) book the first sentence of which I just (00:03:46) have to read out loud the very first (00:03:49) sentence of the review goes like this (00:03:50) you know what's enjoyable about living (00:03:53) with teenagers nothing truly not one (00:03:56) thing they might distract you by (00:03:58) appearing to be deeply interesting and (00:04:00) funny but don't be fooled teenagers are (00:04:03) diabolical you might have a different (00:04:06) lens on that but I think that that's a (00:04:08) very kind of common parental reaction (00:04:11) that that that kind of spawns from (00:04:13) confusion perhaps that like what is (00:04:16) going on with these creatures who at one (00:04:19) moment not too long ago were quite sweet (00:04:21) and now suddenly you know seem to be you (00:04:25) know people we don't recognize anymore (00:04:27) yeah yeah no it um (00:04:30) it has never been easy to be a teenager (00:04:32) or to raise a teenager and you know one (00:04:35) of the kind of broad ways we can walk up (00:04:36) to it is to recognize that one of our (00:04:39) Cardinal rules in Psychology is that (00:04:42) change equals stress (00:04:43) and I think about if you put a 12 year (00:04:45) old next to an 18 year old right you're (00:04:48) not even looking at the same species (00:04:49) anymore (00:04:51) and that is so much change in an (00:04:54) unbelievably short span of time there's (00:04:57) no way it's not going to be stressful (00:04:58) for the kid who's going through it and (00:05:00) for everyone around them (00:05:02) and and with that I mean we can kind of (00:05:05) intellectualize that and understand that (00:05:07) uh but in the the Heat of the Moment (00:05:09) when things tend to get a little chaotic (00:05:13) we default to you know patterns or or (00:05:16) behaviors that are you know by and large (00:05:18) not helpful well-intentioned but not (00:05:21) helpful (00:05:22) so how do we even you know sort of (00:05:26) Embark upon you know understanding this (00:05:29) I mean I would say just at the outset (00:05:32) um as somebody who you know I my teen (00:05:35) years were fraught a lot of people's (00:05:36) teen years were fraught (00:05:38) um and you know as a parent as I (00:05:41) mentioned I've got you know two teens (00:05:43) now and I've got two older stepsons who (00:05:45) are 26 and 27. so I've been doing this (00:05:47) for a while and you know I at times I (00:05:51) feel like I've learned a lot and I (00:05:53) really understand this and then other (00:05:54) times I'm completely out of my depth but (00:05:56) one thing that I have developed is just (00:05:58) a huge compassion for teenagers it's (00:06:01) just it's so hard and of course the last (00:06:03) few years have been uniquely extreme and (00:06:07) uh (00:06:08) and you know every time I feel like I (00:06:10) have a grip on it uh you know something (00:06:12) happens in the degree of difficulty (00:06:14) escalates and I you know I just don't (00:06:16) know what to do and I find myself (00:06:18) misstepping constantly and then trying (00:06:20) to figure out how to repair whatever (00:06:22) misstep that I made (00:06:25) um so I think it's it's you know (00:06:28) disorienting for for most parents so how (00:06:30) do we begin to kind of understand like (00:06:32) just in a in the most General sense what (00:06:36) is happening with the onset of (00:06:39) um adolescents as our younger people (00:06:41) enter those teen years I mean one of the (00:06:43) things that was striking about your book (00:06:45) is the Neurology of of it all and how it (00:06:48) actually begins quite earlier than we (00:06:50) might suspect yeah so when psychologists (00:06:53) say teenager and the onset of (00:06:56) adolescents we have always marked that (00:06:58) at age 11. (00:07:00) which is much much earlier than people (00:07:02) tend to think people think 13 you got (00:07:04) till 13 teenager and we got time (00:07:07) and truly papers going back a hundred (00:07:09) years we've marked the onset of (00:07:10) adolescents at 11 and the reason for (00:07:13) that is puberty is underway and (00:07:15) sometimes it's visible outwardly and (00:07:18) even if it's not visible outwardly it's (00:07:20) certainly underway internally and that (00:07:23) does change the brain that change (00:07:24) changes how it operates that changes the (00:07:27) balance of power in the brain power is (00:07:29) increasingly distributed to the (00:07:31) emotional centers (00:07:32) and the experience in the home is that (00:07:38) the kid who literally yesterday would (00:07:41) let you call them cutie patootie wanted (00:07:43) to go to the store with you thought your (00:07:45) jokes were funny I think for a lot of (00:07:47) parents it feels like overnight the door (00:07:49) closes (00:07:50) literally to their room they bristle at (00:07:54) childhood nicknames they don't think our (00:07:56) jokes are funny and (00:07:58) um it's very very hard not to feel both (00:08:01) shocked by it because it happens so much (00:08:03) sooner than is expected (00:08:05) and also very hard for it to not feel (00:08:08) personal and and I would say (00:08:11) that if I had to describe my work it (00:08:13) really is in the space between parent (00:08:14) and teenager and a huge amount of what (00:08:17) my work aims to do is to give the adults (00:08:21) who care for teenagers a perspective on (00:08:23) adolescent development (00:08:25) that makes it clear that adolescence is (00:08:28) not something they do to us (00:08:30) it's a really really challenging phase (00:08:32) that they are working their way through (00:08:34) and we're often pulled in in ways that (00:08:36) don't always make sense or that we don't (00:08:38) feel comfortable with right (00:08:40) I think we understand that individuation (00:08:43) is a healthy thing and this is a (00:08:45) necessary aspect of of of of growing up (00:08:48) and healthy in in the best way and yet (00:08:52) it still does feel personal even when (00:08:54) you know that it isn't and so the (00:08:56) challenge like the Jedi approach is to (00:08:59) de-personalize everything and not allow (00:09:01) any of this to kind of you know impact (00:09:03) your emotional you know kind of state of (00:09:08) being so that you're not reactive in (00:09:09) these situations and to have that Gap (00:09:11) that moment where you can be like okay I (00:09:14) can identify what this is it actually (00:09:15) doesn't have anything to do with me (00:09:18) yeah (00:09:20) if you can do that twenty percent of the (00:09:22) time you're killing it I think I think (00:09:24) that so often it goes so fast and is so (00:09:27) powerful I there's a section in my book (00:09:28) called why your teen hates how you chew (00:09:30) and and it's about separation and (00:09:33) individuation and (00:09:36) I remember having learned about these (00:09:39) things in school you know this was part (00:09:41) of my training and then having my older (00:09:43) daughter turn 13 and start to move into (00:09:46) that phase where no matter what I did it (00:09:48) absolutely rubbed her the wrong way and (00:09:51) I remember thinking oh my gosh like the (00:09:54) term does not do justice to how hard (00:09:56) this is how hard it is that when I do (00:09:59) things that are like how she sees (00:10:01) herself becoming it's annoying to her (00:10:02) when I do things that are unlike how she (00:10:04) sees herself becoming it's annoying to (00:10:06) her everything is annoying to her and I (00:10:10) think that part of what helps us to (00:10:13) sustain people through those moments (00:10:15) with your kid that are just they're (00:10:16) painful right like you're just in it is (00:10:19) to really (00:10:20) um I hope have some if you feel heard in (00:10:23) that you feel like okay someone gets it (00:10:25) that this is a really hard thing with my (00:10:26) kid or even (00:10:28) you know that common thing that happens (00:10:30) where a kid comes home from school and (00:10:31) you're like how was school and it's like (00:10:32) nothing but complaining like that is so (00:10:34) much often what happens (00:10:36) I think there's real value in kids being (00:10:38) able to come home and dump all the (00:10:39) garbage of the day (00:10:41) but I also think that my work is to say (00:10:43) to parents this is not the most fun part (00:10:45) of the day like this is this is often (00:10:47) like not the conversation we want to (00:10:49) have or at best sometimes just really (00:10:51) tedious but being present for it is (00:10:53) really valuable to our kids not trying (00:10:55) to give them advice if they don't want (00:10:56) it is valuable for our kids (00:10:58) I think that um (00:11:00) when parents know they're not in it (00:11:02) alone that this thing that feels so (00:11:04) specific and personal that's happening (00:11:05) in their home is actually happening (00:11:06) everywhere I think that's where I can (00:11:09) try to communicate that information to (00:11:11) parents in the hope that then when it's (00:11:12) happening it does to feel does feel a (00:11:15) little less personal or more diffused (00:11:17) right a mantra that I've that I've sort (00:11:20) of used to help me through those moments (00:11:22) is (00:11:23) is understanding that that it's my job (00:11:26) to love my kids but it's not my kids job (00:11:29) to love me you know and not looking to (00:11:33) my kids to have any of my needs met and (00:11:35) I think that's a common misstep I mean I (00:11:38) was parented by somebody who who in a in (00:11:41) a not so healthy way like parented me (00:11:44) and my sister in a way that you know (00:11:46) what was Paramount was making sure that (00:11:48) her needs were met and so that's part of (00:11:50) the my like framework and and DNA like (00:11:53) those are the buttons that are installed (00:11:54) and if I'm not careful I will default to (00:11:57) you know that type of behavior that I so (00:12:01) loathed right like everything I've done (00:12:03) to try to overcome those patterns and (00:12:05) and not parent in that way in a weak (00:12:08) moment I will I will do just that very (00:12:10) thing (00:12:12) so you're self-aware (00:12:14) which (00:12:15) is as good as we as much as we can hope (00:12:17) for it's not always enough though that's (00:12:20) the self-awareness will get you is good (00:12:21) but it's a good person it's got to (00:12:23) translate into some kind of action yeah (00:12:25) but I really I I really believe very (00:12:28) strongly like there's no perfect parent (00:12:30) and you don't need to be a perfect (00:12:31) parent right I think that if parents can (00:12:33) be observant of their own histories (00:12:35) observant of how it plays out in their (00:12:36) homes like that puts you way ahead of (00:12:39) you know a lot of parents (00:12:41) I I also think that it's really really (00:12:45) important what you said about not (00:12:48) looking to kids much less teenagers for (00:12:51) gratification and I think what's hard is (00:12:53) often with kids it is enormously (00:12:55) gratifying it's so fun to parent kids (00:12:58) especially between ages six to ten it (00:13:00) really it's wonderful and delightful (00:13:03) but I feel like if you are approaching (00:13:06) if your kid is approaching adolescence (00:13:09) and you don't have in place a way to (00:13:11) feel good about yourself or you know (00:13:14) proud of your you know efforts you need (00:13:17) that before your kid hits adolescence (00:13:20) because you're not going to get it from (00:13:21) your kid yeah and and (00:13:23) I um I feel for people who in taking (00:13:27) care of their kids have given up things (00:13:28) that they themselves (00:13:30) really draw value from because I think (00:13:33) when their kid does become a teenager (00:13:34) and stops finding anything that the (00:13:37) parent does particularly Pleasant they (00:13:39) can feel pretty empty-handed yeah this (00:13:42) is a breach of the contrast exactly I (00:13:44) put in all this time there was a quid (00:13:46) pro quo here didn't you know that we (00:13:48) made a deal yeah it's like no we I (00:13:50) didn't make that deal yeah yeah (00:13:52) so your work historically has focused (00:13:54) primarily on on girls this is different (00:13:57) this new book uh because it it casts its (00:14:00) Gaze on on all teenagers so you know the (00:14:03) obvious question is like why this book (00:14:06) and and why now (00:14:09) so (00:14:10) um the why now (00:14:13) and the why of this book actually have (00:14:15) the same answer which was two factors (00:14:17) that came along one was the pandemic and (00:14:21) that was a time where you know the needs (00:14:24) of all teenagers came to the fore (00:14:26) and I have cared four boys and kids of (00:14:29) all genders over the course of my career (00:14:30) more girls than (00:14:32) boys or kids of other genders but (00:14:36) you know the it was so hard on the (00:14:39) teenagers to go through the pandemic and (00:14:41) it was hard on everybody but for (00:14:43) teenagers in particular (00:14:45) they have two jobs you know one is to (00:14:47) become increasingly independent and the (00:14:49) other is to spend as much time as (00:14:50) possible with their friends and the (00:14:52) pandemic undermined their ability to do (00:14:54) either and so I'd never seen I mean I've (00:14:56) been practicing for almost 30 years I'd (00:14:58) never seen suffering on the scale that (00:15:01) the pandemic brought about in teenagers (00:15:02) everywhere (00:15:04) the other force that (00:15:08) inspired me to write the book was that (00:15:10) the cultural discourse around what (00:15:13) mental health is (00:15:16) stopped squaring with how we understand (00:15:18) it as psychologists and moved to a place (00:15:21) where (00:15:23) a lot of the time it seems as though (00:15:25) being mentally healthy is equated with (00:15:27) feeling good or calm or relaxed or happy (00:15:30) I am all for people having those (00:15:32) feelings I would like for people to have (00:15:34) those feelings often (00:15:36) that does not inform how we think about (00:15:40) mental health and psychology it's not a (00:15:42) good definition of mental health and in (00:15:44) fact I think it actually sets up a very (00:15:47) fragile position for parents and kids if (00:15:50) that becomes the definition because (00:15:53) parent may be happy calm relaxed the kid (00:15:55) may be feeling that anything can come (00:15:57) along and mess that up (00:15:59) and I would never want people to think (00:16:02) that then their mental health is (00:16:04) suddenly up for grabs right they may be (00:16:06) having a very bad day (00:16:08) but it felt to me imperative to um (00:16:12) do work that help people make the (00:16:14) distinction between distress and a (00:16:16) mental health concern (00:16:18) because too often right now those are (00:16:20) spoken about in the same breath right (00:16:23) so two very important things covid and (00:16:25) then how we're conceptualizing mental (00:16:27) health let's I want to get to covid but (00:16:29) let's park that for now and just kind of (00:16:31) uh Riff on on the mental health (00:16:33) conversation because I think that's a (00:16:35) big one (00:16:36) um I couldn't agree more I think that (00:16:39) they're it's a situation in which you (00:16:42) know good intentions have gone awry like (00:16:44) there is a mental health conversation (00:16:46) going on right now that is helpful (00:16:47) people are thinking about it in ways (00:16:50) that didn't exist prior to the pandemic (00:16:53) um but it's a it's a situation where (00:16:55) there are unforeseen negative (00:16:57) consequences as a result uh everything (00:17:00) is a trauma we're all victims we're (00:17:03) coddling you know in the Jonathan height (00:17:04) kind of you know thesis of over coddling (00:17:07) uh people as parents we you know we're (00:17:10) so fearful of exposing our children to (00:17:13) any form of of risk or Peril and so (00:17:16) we're hovering and (00:17:18) um you know overly accommodating and (00:17:20) then you know these teens are then (00:17:22) running the household you know it's like (00:17:24) there's all sorts of crazy stuff that's (00:17:26) going on (00:17:27) um that is born out of this good idea of (00:17:30) of like how do we protect our kids how (00:17:32) do we prioritize their mental health so (00:17:35) distress on the one hand which you (00:17:37) characterize as you know maybe difficult (00:17:40) emotions but but appropriate given a (00:17:43) certain context that are responded to by (00:17:46) the parent from a perspective of trying (00:17:49) to make them go away and get you back to (00:17:51) a place of happiness you know let's fix (00:17:53) it let's fix it there's something if (00:17:55) you're not happy there's something wrong (00:17:57) with you like what does that do to a (00:18:00) young mind who's constantly being (00:18:02) impulsed with this message that if (00:18:04) you're not happy all the time if you're (00:18:06) not like experiencing passion and Bliss (00:18:09) and all of this that there's there's (00:18:11) some kind of pathology lingering inside (00:18:13) of you (00:18:16) does is it makes distress seem like the (00:18:19) bad guy (00:18:20) when (00:18:22) the way we view it in Psychology is that (00:18:24) distress is integral to human (00:18:26) functioning and for teenagers and of (00:18:30) course this is within limits but for (00:18:32) teenagers distress is part of how (00:18:35) actually all of us navigate the world (00:18:37) you know we know what feels good and (00:18:39) what doesn't and so we do you know more (00:18:40) of the things that feel good hopefully (00:18:41) and less of the things that you know are (00:18:43) having negative consequences (00:18:45) and for teenagers it is also growth (00:18:47) giving it's actually profoundly growth (00:18:49) giving when I think about the kids I've (00:18:52) worked with clinically (00:18:53) who have gone through something really (00:18:55) painful and I mean gone through it like (00:18:57) been allowed to have the experience and (00:18:59) find their way through I've never seen (00:19:01) maturation (00:19:03) happen at so rapid a pace and and what I (00:19:07) mean you know there may be a kid who you (00:19:09) know is confronted by a tragedy (00:19:10) something really awful happens and it's (00:19:12) extremely painful and we would wish that (00:19:14) it never happened but if they're helped (00:19:16) through it you end up with teenagers who (00:19:19) are philosophical and and broad-minded (00:19:22) in ways that you don't see usually at (00:19:24) that age or um if a teenager messes up (00:19:28) does something really dumb right like (00:19:30) cheats and gets caught (00:19:31) and has to sit with the consequences at (00:19:34) school and sit with the consequences at (00:19:35) home (00:19:36) those are the kids who in my practice (00:19:38) are saying things to me like (00:19:40) I never want to feel this way again like (00:19:42) I'm gonna organize myself around not (00:19:44) having to feel this or (00:19:46) this has made me think so much about the (00:19:49) kind of person I want to be and so I (00:19:52) find myself as a psychologist right now (00:19:54) in some ways trying to do PR for (00:19:57) distress right like it has a hugely (00:20:00) important Place really in all of our (00:20:01) lives and then especially for teenagers (00:20:04) feeling it helps them grow helps them (00:20:06) navigate (00:20:07) and then (00:20:08) knowing that they can find their way (00:20:11) through developing skill sets for (00:20:13) managing it is actually what allows them (00:20:15) to function autonomously it allows them (00:20:17) to move away from us go to places where (00:20:20) they don't necessarily know that it's (00:20:22) going to go well (00:20:24) because if they they consider it they (00:20:26) think well if a go if I go there and it (00:20:27) doesn't go well I can handle that like I (00:20:30) have it within myself to manage whereas (00:20:34) you know to answer your question kids (00:20:37) who (00:20:38) feel that they can only proceed in (00:20:41) circumstances where they know they won't (00:20:42) be uncomfortable (00:20:44) or they could be guaranteed that it's (00:20:46) going to go well end up on these (00:20:48) extraordinarily narrow paths right (00:20:50) because of very little of life has that (00:20:52) sure so for me I really think being able (00:20:57) to (00:20:58) accept distress and work one's way (00:21:00) through it (00:21:01) for teenagers in particular it's the (00:21:03) keys to the kingdom it is what lets them (00:21:05) move freely into the world right it's uh (00:21:08) it's it's similar to Susan David's you (00:21:11) know Notions around emotional resilience (00:21:13) yeah right like you can't develop that (00:21:15) type of resilience unless you allow you (00:21:18) put yourself in a position to fail and (00:21:20) kind of grapple with failure and (00:21:22) learning how to move forward and all of (00:21:24) those things especially at that time (00:21:26) when your brain is wiring a you know at (00:21:29) such a rapid rate right like there's (00:21:31) there seems to be a preciousness to this (00:21:32) period of time where this kind of thing (00:21:35) is more kind of mission critical than it (00:21:38) is later in life (00:21:40) I think it's true and and yet I think (00:21:42) that's also part of what makes it so (00:21:43) hard for parents to tolerate it is that (00:21:46) teenagers do make terrible mistakes and (00:21:49) sometimes life-changing mistakes right (00:21:52) um You have this phrase uh angst is the (00:21:54) price of admission yeah is that that you (00:21:57) came up with did you come up with that I (00:21:58) don't know that I did yeah that's great (00:22:00) though (00:22:01) I think it's great (00:22:04) um but yeah for the for the from the (00:22:07) point of view of the parent it then (00:22:09) becomes the job then becomes deciphering (00:22:13) what is a situation that that demands (00:22:16) some level of intervention and when is (00:22:18) the when is it appropriate for me to be (00:22:21) you know to take a step back and allow (00:22:23) this to unfold without intervening yeah (00:22:26) no I think it's a really tough call (00:22:28) um and there's no perfect science to it (00:22:30) right I mean that's the thing like I (00:22:31) have no answer that can tell a parent (00:22:32) here's how you'll know (00:22:35) um (00:22:36) and I think that one of the hardest (00:22:38) things about (00:22:40) raising a teenager is you actually (00:22:42) cannot guarantee your teenager safety (00:22:44) like there's nothing you can do to (00:22:46) guarantee that your teenager will not (00:22:47) find themselves in a position that's (00:22:49) truly dangerous (00:22:50) that is so scary I can say that both as (00:22:53) a parent and as a psychologist who cares (00:22:55) for kids (00:22:56) but I also know that fear is a terrible (00:23:01) position from which to parent (00:23:03) and that's something that also I think a (00:23:05) lot right now (00:23:06) about how hard it is to parent teenagers (00:23:08) you know we have these unrelenting (00:23:10) headlines about the Adolescent Mental (00:23:12) Health crisis about youth suicide (00:23:14) and I feel both glad that we're having (00:23:17) the conversation and also concerned (00:23:19) about what it feels like as a parent to (00:23:21) be seeing those headlines all the time (00:23:23) and how that would shape or inform (00:23:26) reacting to even more Garden variety (00:23:28) adolescent upset sure yeah and I (00:23:31) definitely want to dig into that but you (00:23:33) know in in thinking about like the media (00:23:35) there was one uh article in the Atlantic (00:23:38) a couple years ago that was all about (00:23:41) um accommodative parenting did you see (00:23:43) do you see this article it's like an (00:23:45) anxious child and the crisis of modern (00:23:47) parenting and it's really about the fear (00:23:50) that that the parents have you know when (00:23:54) they see these statistics and like oh my (00:23:56) God like all these teenage girls are are (00:23:58) having suicidal ideation and loneliness (00:24:01) and all this stuff like we've gotta make (00:24:03) sure that our kid is in their their (00:24:04) transferring all of that fear and that (00:24:07) pathology onto their child you know from (00:24:10) a place again of of best intentions but (00:24:14) there's a whole Downstream you know kind (00:24:16) of negative reaction you know when that (00:24:19) child is like it makes the kid feel (00:24:21) unsafe and then oh I guess I should be (00:24:23) afraid because my parents are so afraid (00:24:25) and then that's actually exacerbating (00:24:27) the situation that you're trying to to (00:24:29) you know ameliorate that's my big worry (00:24:32) now actually is that (00:24:35) are the best gift we can give our kids (00:24:38) especially our teenagers is to try to be (00:24:40) a steady presence (00:24:42) teenagers experience their own emotions (00:24:44) is very very powerful and destabilizing (00:24:46) and part of how they can feel more (00:24:48) secure is if they bring their emotions (00:24:50) to the parent and the parent can react (00:24:52) at least outwardly in a calm way right (00:24:55) and I think about (00:24:57) it's analog in raising younger kids you (00:25:00) know how like if your toddler is running (00:25:01) towards you and then they fall and (00:25:03) scrape their knee that they look at (00:25:04) their knee and then they look at your (00:25:05) face right and we're good we're really (00:25:08) good at that moment like what how am I (00:25:09) supposed to feel yeah you tell me this (00:25:11) how bad is it and we have a very (00:25:13) powerful and helpful Instinct in that (00:25:15) moment where we usually are like you're (00:25:17) okay you're okay even if inside we're (00:25:19) thinking oh God that looks pretty bad (00:25:21) the same is true for raising teenagers (00:25:24) that you know for them you know a failed (00:25:27) test uh you know ruptured friendship (00:25:29) feels disastrous like that's how they (00:25:32) experience emotions and they come home (00:25:34) to us and they lay it in front of us and (00:25:37) the best weak gift we can give them is (00:25:39) to be very empathic and very attentive (00:25:42) to it but not to react at that at their (00:25:44) level much less above it (00:25:46) and so I think the challenge right now (00:25:50) in parenting is how to have these (00:25:52) headlines all around (00:25:54) and try to be a steady presence in the (00:25:57) face of what is often Garden variety (00:25:59) adolescent distress but if this is your (00:26:01) first teenager or you don't do this for (00:26:03) a living how would you know that I think (00:26:05) it's really hard (00:26:06) yeah it seems to break down into into (00:26:09) two categories you have the teen (00:26:13) who is on the emotional roller coaster (00:26:15) and there's lots of chaos and and you (00:26:18) know kind of externalization of of of of (00:26:21) emotions that get dumped on the parents (00:26:23) and then you have the the young person (00:26:26) that internalizes everything and says (00:26:28) I'm fine goes to the room and shuts the (00:26:31) door so what are the differences in how (00:26:34) you interface with those two archetypes (00:26:37) that are on the kind of I mean it's all (00:26:38) on a spectrum of course but you know it (00:26:41) would seem to me that there would be a (00:26:43) differential in like how to think about (00:26:45) and approach those two types of young (00:26:48) people (00:26:49) so when I think about teenagers I often (00:26:52) think about them as talkers or not (00:26:53) talkers right and parents in audiences (00:26:56) you can almost tell by the looks on (00:26:57) their faces who's got which type of (00:26:59) teenager (00:27:00) so there are kids who come home and (00:27:01) share a huge amount and their kids who (00:27:04) come home and are very very quiet and (00:27:07) that is hard on parents and it's (00:27:09) especially hard on parents when they can (00:27:10) tell the kid is in pain (00:27:12) and so what I tried to introduce in this (00:27:15) book was how we as psychologists think (00:27:18) about emotion regulation (00:27:21) um which is that we think about it as a (00:27:22) two-sided thing there's expressing (00:27:24) emotions to get relief from them and (00:27:26) there's actually raining them back in (00:27:28) controlling emotions which we put (00:27:32) actually on equal footing in terms of (00:27:34) their value to overall emotion (00:27:36) regulation which may come as a surprise (00:27:39) to some people because we've really (00:27:40) moved as a culture very much to the side (00:27:42) of like if there's a feeling the best (00:27:44) thing to do is to talk about it you know (00:27:45) maybe to excavate it to talk it to death (00:27:47) sometimes maybe but we actually see (00:27:50) there's a huge wide range of other (00:27:52) options that will really be useful (00:27:55) but what I can say fundamentally back to (00:27:57) your sort of these extreme examples (00:27:59) is our ideal is that you see a little (00:28:02) bit of bowls both the capacity to gain (00:28:04) Relief by expressing emotions and the (00:28:06) capacity to tame emotions when needed (00:28:10) and this is true both in the home around (00:28:12) Garden variety adolescent distress (00:28:15) it's also how we think clinically if a (00:28:18) teenager is all expression if their (00:28:21) emotions are running the show calling (00:28:23) all the shots we actually think how do (00:28:25) we get these more tamed how do we get (00:28:28) these under control and if a teenager is (00:28:30) entirely reserved shut down bottled up (00:28:33) we think clinically okay what's it going (00:28:36) to take for this young person to find a (00:28:38) way to express (00:28:39) so most of the time kids are actually (00:28:43) doing a little bit of both back and (00:28:44) forth (00:28:45) it's not comfortable for them all the (00:28:47) time it's not comfortable for their (00:28:48) family all the time but as far as (00:28:50) psychologists are concerned they're (00:28:51) doing great (00:28:52) um what we watch out for are the (00:28:54) extremes yeah (00:28:57) we're brought to you today by Roca (00:28:58) glasses are not something you normally (00:29:01) think about as a piece of performance (00:29:03) gear which when you think about it is (00:29:05) kind of insane because you can't perform (00:29:07) at your best if you can't see well the (00:29:10) Geniuses at Roka basically rebuilt (00:29:12) eyewear from the ground up no matter how (00:29:14) active you are or how much you sweat (00:29:17) these things never slip or fall off your (00:29:19) face they're super durable they look (00:29:22) awesome and they've got tons of super (00:29:24) classy modern styles to choose from I've (00:29:26) been rocking rocas for about four years (00:29:29) at this point I love them I'm a big fan (00:29:32) of the Hamilton style and gloss black (00:29:34) that's this Frame right here as well as (00:29:37) clear or I guess they call them vintage (00:29:39) on the website and if you want to try (00:29:42) them out for yourself you can do that (00:29:43) right now and unlock 20 off your order (00:29:45) with the code richroll (00:29:47) roca.com or you can click the link in (00:29:50) the description below okay back to the (00:29:53) show (00:29:55) foreign (00:29:56) so in the in the book you kind of you (00:29:59) break this down into two different (00:30:00) pieces you have the the the management (00:30:02) of emotions and then you have the (00:30:05) regaining of you know kind of control of (00:30:07) your of of their kind of emotional (00:30:10) regulatory system or their Equanimity (00:30:13) um and then there's a whole kind of (00:30:14) discourse around the you know in the (00:30:18) management of their emotions how to (00:30:20) discern when this is healthy versus (00:30:23) problematic and just because a teen (00:30:26) comes home and like dumps some crazy (00:30:28) story on you and tells you you're (00:30:29) horrible and slams the door they're (00:30:32) externalizing whatever is going on with (00:30:34) them emotionally that might be a healthy (00:30:36) response to whatever is happening to not (00:30:38) be reactive to that your job is to kind (00:30:41) of you know be be you know just just be (00:30:44) Placid in the face of that chaos as a (00:30:47) stable Force for that person and resist (00:30:51) the temptation to solve the problem for (00:30:54) the child (00:30:56) that's right but what I would say is (00:31:00) it's important that we have parameters (00:31:02) around how emotions get expressed so the (00:31:05) kid may come home and be really angry (00:31:07) and have had a terrible day (00:31:09) and I would never say they shouldn't be (00:31:11) given a lot of room to express their (00:31:13) frustration and their annoyance you know (00:31:15) with how they the day went down (00:31:18) what we're really going to train our (00:31:20) attention on as psychologists is whether (00:31:22) they express those emotions or tame (00:31:24) those emotions in ways that bring relief (00:31:26) and Do no harm or whether there's a cost (00:31:29) to how they're going about it (00:31:30) so actually if a kid comes home and just (00:31:33) like salts the Earth at home as a way to (00:31:36) deal with the expression of their (00:31:38) frustration that's costly right they're (00:31:40) tearing at their relationships at home (00:31:42) that's not something I would want to (00:31:44) allow (00:31:45) but that doesn't mean I'd want the (00:31:47) parent to you know engage with them full (00:31:50) blast but I think there may be room once (00:31:53) you know things have settled a little (00:31:54) bit and cooled off to come back to that (00:31:57) teenager and say look you have every (00:31:58) right to be angry about what happened at (00:32:00) school like I agree like that's a pretty (00:32:02) lousy thing (00:32:03) you can't express it in a way that (00:32:05) damages relationships or hurts other (00:32:07) people and you or you you can't express (00:32:10) it that way so here's how you can (00:32:11) express it you can say this this and (00:32:13) this and this you can you know if you (00:32:14) want to go out and like kick a soccer (00:32:15) ball if you want to like you know go (00:32:17) scream to a pillow like you can do all (00:32:19) these things that have no cost (00:32:21) but you can't come home and lay waste to (00:32:24) family life because you had everything (00:32:26) just like torch the house yeah and then (00:32:29) the half-life of these things is always (00:32:30) pretty short you know then it's sort of (00:32:32) like what are you talking about like (00:32:33) everything's fine you know I will tell (00:32:35) you I think the all-time art of raising (00:32:38) a teenager is not holding a grudge yeah (00:32:40) I think that is really they time is (00:32:43) different for them I've always felt that (00:32:46) teenagers are like dog years you know (00:32:47) like a year for us is like seven for (00:32:49) them I think an hour for that us is like (00:32:52) seven for them so we can still be really (00:32:54) sore about something that happened and (00:32:57) like truly they are so far past it they (00:32:58) don't even think about what right like (00:33:01) you're still thinking about that like (00:33:02) they're on 10 they're 10 steps down the (00:33:05) road you know so I think that (00:33:07) if we're gonna enjoy our teenagers which (00:33:09) we should I think a lot of it is saying (00:33:13) our piece around behavior when we need (00:33:15) to but then meeting them where they are (00:33:17) and if they're in a better place like (00:33:18) Let It Go Get There mm-hmm (00:33:20) and and what about the child who is (00:33:23) internalizing everything who's reclusive (00:33:26) you know that often leaves the parent (00:33:29) in a state of distress because they just (00:33:31) they just don't know what's going on (00:33:33) right like they may think well that kid (00:33:35) doesn't seem (00:33:36) uh you know well attuned to his or her (00:33:40) environments doesn't quite seem happy (00:33:42) but we don't really know what's going on (00:33:44) and that can be a real a scary place for (00:33:48) for a parent and then you know what is (00:33:50) the typical kind of parent response to (00:33:52) that where do parents go wrong and (00:33:54) trying to decipher that and understand (00:33:57) what's happening so that they can you (00:33:59) know be of Maximum service yeah no it's (00:34:01) interesting sometimes I'll be with an (00:34:02) audience and a parent will tell a story (00:34:05) about their kid who just talks and talks (00:34:07) and talks and complains and complains (00:34:09) and complains and then another penal (00:34:10) raise their hand and say I wish my kid I (00:34:13) wish my kid were telling me what's going (00:34:15) on because it is as you describe it's so (00:34:17) long it's worrisome to parents (00:34:19) so the first thing I would want to rule (00:34:22) out right you know like clinicians so we (00:34:24) think about like what do you want to (00:34:25) rule out in terms of how worried to be (00:34:27) so one is like is the kid using (00:34:29) substances like a lot right and when we (00:34:31) think about ways that emotions get tamed (00:34:33) substances are extremely effective and (00:34:36) extremely powerful and that is one of (00:34:39) the you know kind of high likelihood (00:34:41) ways if a kid's gonna handle their (00:34:43) emotions tame them in a way that's going (00:34:44) to be costly that's a very high (00:34:46) likelihood way to do it so first (00:34:48) question I'd have is you know as a kid (00:34:49) abusing right is a kid using substances (00:34:51) in a way that's concerning and then you (00:34:53) deal with that (00:34:54) the other way that kids tame emotions (00:34:57) that can be very problematic over time (00:34:59) is by sort of chronic distraction that (00:35:03) you know they have an uncomfortable (00:35:04) feeling and then they are on video games (00:35:05) for hours and distraction has its place (00:35:09) in helping us maintain our emotional (00:35:11) equilibrium (00:35:12) but um (00:35:14) some kids are working so hard to not (00:35:16) feel things that they are constantly (00:35:18) distracting themselves and often (00:35:19) technology is where this is happening so (00:35:22) much so that it starts to cost them in (00:35:24) other areas right they're not making (00:35:25) friendships they're not getting their (00:35:26) schoolwork done (00:35:27) so in terms of like levels of when to (00:35:30) worry about a kid who's very reserved or (00:35:33) not sharing with a parent (00:35:34) I would first you know worry about (00:35:36) substances worry about constant (00:35:38) distraction and Tackle those as the (00:35:40) problems they are (00:35:41) then they're the kids who just aren't (00:35:42) big talkers right they're just not big (00:35:44) talkers or they're very private (00:35:46) and there are a couple of ways that (00:35:48) parents can think about how to (00:35:50) um (00:35:51) change that with their kid (00:35:53) one is (00:35:55) teenagers are organized around autonomy (00:35:57) they want to become increasingly (00:35:58) independent (00:36:00) and so it shouldn't surprise us that (00:36:03) they may not be in the mood to answer (00:36:04) our questions when we are asking them (00:36:06) right if we're at dinner like okay how (00:36:08) was school you know what happened it (00:36:11) happens all the time the parents are (00:36:12) like your kid's like fine nothing right (00:36:16) and so (00:36:17) one thing I was so delighted to discover (00:36:20) in writing this book (00:36:22) is something that was happening in my (00:36:24) home and that I think a lot of families (00:36:25) think is just happening in their home is (00:36:28) that the kid who tells them nothing (00:36:29) after school at dinner asking great (00:36:32) questions parents getting nothing (00:36:34) Waits until the parent is in bed and (00:36:36) then is suddenly standing there as (00:36:38) chatty as can be and (00:36:40) when I realized this was like near (00:36:42) Universal like this was happening in so (00:36:44) many homes I thought okay well this is (00:36:45) fascinating and what I think is (00:36:47) happening is the teenager (00:36:50) is satisfying two needs at once they (00:36:52) want to be autonomous but they want to (00:36:54) connect with a parent and so if they (00:36:55) wait till we're in bed they decide if (00:36:57) there's going to be a meeting they (00:36:59) decide the content of the meeting (00:37:00) because they know we're not going to (00:37:01) bring up new topics at that time and (00:37:03) they decide when it ends so (00:37:05) what I would say is maybe your kid's not (00:37:07) a nighttime talker but I have become (00:37:10) increasingly aware there are kids who (00:37:11) don't want to talk when the parent wants (00:37:13) to talk (00:37:14) but they will text with the parents or (00:37:17) they will have conversations in the car (00:37:19) that they need a lot of tight control (00:37:21) over the conversation in order to have (00:37:23) it (00:37:24) the other scenario that comes up is that (00:37:29) the teenager doesn't want to talk (00:37:30) because they the parents stepped in it (00:37:33) the parent did something (00:37:34) when they did talk that made the kid (00:37:37) uncomfortable about opening up (00:37:40) and when I've asked teenagers like you (00:37:42) know you know that thing where you're (00:37:44) clearly upset and your parents asking (00:37:45) what's wrong and you know you're just (00:37:47) shaking them off shaking them off (00:37:49) they're like hey I'm like what what's (00:37:51) the deal like what's the deal and (00:37:52) they're like well there's a few (00:37:53) different reasons (00:37:55) so the reasons they give me they say (00:37:57) well sometimes it's because we know what (00:37:59) you're gonna say (00:38:00) so I'm upset because I messed up my math (00:38:03) test and it's the math test that you (00:38:05) asked me if I was ready for and I told (00:38:06) you I was but it turns out I was not and (00:38:08) so if I if I tell you that that's the (00:38:11) issue I'm gonna basically get and I told (00:38:13) you so and I don't want to hear it so I (00:38:15) can't tell you (00:38:17) another reason they'll give me is (00:38:19) they'll say You're Gonna blab right so (00:38:22) I'm gonna tell you about something (00:38:23) that's happening for me or a friend and (00:38:25) then the next thing I know you're going (00:38:26) to be on the horn either with the school (00:38:27) or with the neighbor or with your sister (00:38:30) and I did not mean for this to leave the (00:38:32) house and so I'm not telling you stuff (00:38:36) um and then I thought this was so (00:38:38) beautiful a girl said to me here's the (00:38:41) deal (00:38:41) by the time I get home I am 90 of the (00:38:44) way over whatever I was upset about and (00:38:47) rehashing the whole thing from my (00:38:48) parents is not gonna help me feel better (00:38:50) so I think we sometimes want to be (00:38:52) attentive that like they know us (00:38:55) they we may have stepped in it and if we (00:38:57) have we have to apologize and try to you (00:39:00) know repair that and I think teenagers (00:39:02) can be pretty forgiving you know if (00:39:03) you're earnestly apologetic I think you (00:39:05) can open channels of communication (00:39:08) there's so much in that yeah I mean a (00:39:10) lot allowing the the team to set the (00:39:12) parameters for these types of (00:39:14) discussions not trying to force them (00:39:16) trying to uh refrain from judgment or (00:39:19) you know stepping into the you know on (00:39:21) these land mines that are are typically (00:39:23) the things that that cut off (00:39:25) communication right uh resisting the (00:39:28) urge to try to solve the problem or step (00:39:30) in and intervene or like tell some story (00:39:34) about what happened to you when they you (00:39:35) were that age which is like the worst (00:39:37) right and the conversation I would say (00:39:40) like that's the last thing they want to (00:39:41) hear right when I was a teenager is like (00:39:44) the most conversation ending thing you (00:39:46) can possibly say as you know (00:39:51) um I mean I've just learned because we (00:39:52) have a quieter child and and it's funny (00:39:54) because just the other night like that (00:39:57) exact thing happened like right when I (00:39:58) was going to bed you know (00:40:01) um (00:40:02) and you have to just (00:40:04) like you live for those moments because (00:40:06) you can't compel them so you have to (00:40:10) like (00:40:11) be in a place of of sort of surrender (00:40:13) around it and then when they happen you (00:40:15) you have to have the you like have to (00:40:17) have the awareness like oh okay it's hap (00:40:19) I have to I have to turn on now because (00:40:21) this is a fleeting thing you know it (00:40:23) doesn't happen that often it requires a (00:40:25) lot of patience it does it really really (00:40:28) does so here's how I think we summon (00:40:30) that patience (00:40:31) first of all this is really short-lived (00:40:35) and and one of the things I'm so glad (00:40:37) about is that I was practicing before I (00:40:39) had kids and I had so many people I was (00:40:41) caring for so many parents say oh my (00:40:43) gosh it goes so fast like they're out so (00:40:45) fast because my personality is a bit (00:40:48) more on the controlling side and I know (00:40:52) that if I didn't have that professional (00:40:55) reminder all of the time of how (00:40:57) short-lived this would be (00:40:59) I know I would have been like clean up (00:41:00) your shoes or in the wrong place and let (00:41:02) me go to sleep I mean I know I would (00:41:03) have demanded more in that way (00:41:06) and so um and now I have a kid in (00:41:08) college right and and it's true and so (00:41:10) for me in those moments where I'm like (00:41:11) oh really right now I think you know (00:41:14) what in three years I would give my left (00:41:17) arm to have you come in to talk to me (00:41:18) right like I'm not gonna know where you (00:41:19) are at 11 o'clock at night so I think (00:41:22) that helps and then the other thing I (00:41:24) think (00:41:25) is more important than it's ever been (00:41:28) is that the single most powerful force (00:41:30) for adolescent mental health is strong (00:41:33) relationships with caring adults so we (00:41:35) have to meet them more than halfway we (00:41:38) just have to (00:41:40) um (00:41:42) I think most parents are caring (00:41:45) but they don't know how to deploy that (00:41:47) care in in a helpful manner right it (00:41:50) goes back to Good Intentions Gone Gone (00:41:52) awry so when they say you know how a (00:41:55) school which I do every day like I make (00:41:57) all these mistakes it's very by the way (00:41:58) it's very refreshing that you spent your (00:42:01) entire life studying this stuff still (00:42:02) you know guys (00:42:05) [Music] (00:42:05) um (00:42:06) uh you know it gets it wrong but (00:42:11) yeah of course I mean I don't know I (00:42:13) mean I feel like they need to know that (00:42:14) that (00:42:15) um that they're safe I try to you know (00:42:19) Reserve judgment like to me maintaining (00:42:22) that open channel of communication is (00:42:25) the most important thing and the minute (00:42:26) you inject any kind of like judgment (00:42:28) into it or (00:42:31) um (00:42:31) you know attitude about like a certain (00:42:34) Behavior or thing like that's only going (00:42:37) to restrict that's gonna like you said (00:42:39) earlier it's gonna make them think twice (00:42:40) about opening up to you next time yeah (00:42:43) it's funny the thing you know I I my (00:42:46) favorite thing to do is to be with (00:42:47) teenagers and just ask you know like (00:42:49) what does that adults do that don't (00:42:51) doesn't work for you or what is it that (00:42:52) adults don't understand (00:42:54) and one thing I've been hearing from (00:42:56) them a lot is don't compare us don't (00:42:59) compare us I think so often again in a (00:43:01) well-meaning way parents are like you (00:43:03) know your brother didn't do that or you (00:43:05) know why can't you be more like or when (00:43:07) I was a teenager like I didn't (00:43:09) and it just rubs them the wrong way so (00:43:13) much you know Betty's son yeah he's (00:43:15) doing great yeah what's up with you you (00:43:17) know and and again I'm with you I I (00:43:20) don't think any parent is setting Out To (00:43:22) Do Wrong by their kid like I I think we (00:43:24) are desperate to do right by our kids (00:43:27) and there's almost nothing in parenting (00:43:30) that I would point to that is not well (00:43:32) intentioned (00:43:33) but the best thing about teenagers is (00:43:35) that they will tell us straight up what (00:43:37) does and does not work for them and I (00:43:39) think we need to take it seriously (00:43:43) um so we talked a little bit about the (00:43:45) the managing of the emotions part and (00:43:47) then there's the the regaining control (00:43:49) aspect (00:43:51) um how are you know how our teens you (00:43:53) know what are they what are they looking (00:43:54) to to kind of self-regulate like is it (00:43:58) taking a bath with essential oils or is (00:44:01) it you know going on a video game for (00:44:03) six hours or sticking their head in a (00:44:05) bong like it can be all of these (00:44:07) different things right and I thought (00:44:08) what was really interesting in the book (00:44:09) was (00:44:10) look uh if a kid has a hard day and they (00:44:13) come home and then they there's one (00:44:15) example of one one teen who then you (00:44:18) know plays a video game for an hour or (00:44:20) whatever and that's what he needs to (00:44:21) kind of like down regulate and then he (00:44:24) he gets what he needs out of it and then (00:44:26) he's ready to like focus on his homework (00:44:28) or like you know he's okay right and (00:44:30) that's very different from the person (00:44:32) who can't stop scrolling or has a you (00:44:35) know a more malignant relationship to (00:44:36) whether it's technology or substance or (00:44:38) or whatever it is and so from the (00:44:41) parental point of view again it goes (00:44:43) back to how do you discern the healthy (00:44:46) you know response versus the unhealthy (00:44:48) one (00:44:49) so (00:44:51) two ways to slice this one is we really (00:44:54) have to be deliberate about allowing (00:44:58) teeming efforts to be seen as a healthy (00:45:01) response at all like I think our culture (00:45:03) is so much defaulted right now too if my (00:45:05) kid's upset the right the script I'm (00:45:07) operating on is they come home they tell (00:45:09) me what they're upset about I give them (00:45:10) good advice they feel better that's the (00:45:12) script yeah okay it's terrible script (00:45:14) right or rarely at it just doesn't (00:45:16) happen that often right yeah so the (00:45:19) first thing we have to do is actually (00:45:20) expand our understanding of what the (00:45:22) options are so ways that kids can manage (00:45:25) a bad day that are entirely acceptable (00:45:27) in the Canon of psychological research (00:45:29) would be coming home and rolling around (00:45:32) on the floor with a dog for a while (00:45:33) right or coming home and going for a run (00:45:36) because that helps them feel better or (00:45:38) taking a shower or (00:45:40) maybe happen on a video game just for a (00:45:42) little while (00:45:43) what we're always going to measure is (00:45:46) whether there's a cost Associated right (00:45:47) so there's a lot of ways that kids (00:45:49) regulate emotion that first of all we (00:45:51) don't even recognize and value that I (00:45:53) think we need to (00:45:54) and then if a parent starts to be (00:45:56) uncomfortable like I don't know they've (00:45:57) been on the video game for a while right (00:45:59) this is going on and on the way to (00:46:01) evaluate it is what's the cost of this (00:46:03) right is there work they're supposed to (00:46:05) be doing have they been you know (00:46:06) sedentary for a long time are they not (00:46:08) seeing friends (00:46:10) and so you know that's that's the (00:46:13) measure like we just don't want there to (00:46:15) be a price tag attached to what kids do (00:46:18) but the fun thing about caring for (00:46:20) teenagers and getting to write about (00:46:21) them is to really celebrate like they're (00:46:24) good at regulating emotion and (00:46:27) one of the big ones huge in the lives of (00:46:30) teenagers is actually music you know (00:46:32) that they will come home and they'll use (00:46:34) it both to express emotion and actually (00:46:36) to contain emotion so it happens all the (00:46:39) time that if a kid is sad like I would (00:46:41) say most teenagers have a sad playlist (00:46:43) like they actually collect this music (00:46:46) that they will (00:46:47) um come home or wherever they are (00:46:49) they'll be sad and they will (00:46:50) deliberately put on their sad playlist (00:46:52) with the intention of crying alongside (00:46:54) it (00:46:55) to express the emotions so that they can (00:46:58) get to feeling better faster and it (00:46:59) works beautifully harmless effective (00:47:03) the same teenager or other teenagers (00:47:05) will sometimes actually have mood (00:47:06) countering music like they'll be in a (00:47:08) bad place where they'll have low energy (00:47:09) and so they have their upbeat or you (00:47:12) know pump up or had a teenager describe (00:47:15) it as yeah yeah playlist that was a (00:47:17) great name (00:47:18) and so they they're always using these (00:47:21) extraordinary (00:47:22) you know adaptive tools and I think as (00:47:25) adults we too often miss it and we think (00:47:27) why aren't they talking to us about (00:47:28) their feelings when in fact they've got (00:47:30) such good stuff going on how do you get (00:47:33) them to be so open with you oh well (00:47:36) first of all I'm not their parents yeah (00:47:37) I mean yeah (00:47:39) um second of all they know I'm it's time (00:47:41) limited (00:47:43) um I also think (00:47:46) and this is I'm sad about this I also (00:47:49) think (00:47:50) it's not that often the teenagers (00:47:52) encounter adults who are (00:47:55) absolutely fascinated by them in a (00:47:57) totally benign way and I hope it is (00:48:00) totally benign I believe it is we're (00:48:02) pretty biased against teenagers as a (00:48:04) culture like you can say about teenagers (00:48:06) things you could could and never should (00:48:08) say you shouldn't say about teenagers (00:48:10) about any other group right I mean (00:48:11) people are (00:48:12) wholesale dismissive of teenagers you (00:48:14) know they're so impulsive they're so (00:48:16) difficult you know I mean it's (00:48:18) extraordinary actually what we allow (00:48:20) ourselves to say about teenagers and (00:48:22) teenagers are well aware of that that (00:48:24) adults often cast a sort of you know (00:48:27) unpleasant eye on them and I am (00:48:31) absolutely convinced that teenagers can (00:48:33) smell at 300 yards you know adults who (00:48:38) um (00:48:39) don't regard them you know with a whole (00:48:42) lot of respect and they can also smell (00:48:44) at 300 yards adults who um honestly I (00:48:47) just love them it's clear I mean your (00:48:50) curiosity your fascination with them (00:48:52) yeah it's very it's disarming oh well (00:48:55) and I think for teenagers they're like (00:48:56) all right lady like you're like really (00:48:58) asking so we will really tell you all (00:49:01) right yeah somebody just had to ask (00:49:03) earnestly yeah right and you like seem (00:49:05) to really want an answer and you're not (00:49:06) gonna fight us when we tell you the (00:49:07) answer right (00:49:09) um I I was speaking at a school recently (00:49:11) to a upper school (00:49:13) high school and um I heard I had a great (00:49:16) conversation with teenagers like we had (00:49:18) a great time but I heard after the fact (00:49:19) that they were like oh we have a speaker (00:49:21) oh man she can talk to us about social (00:49:22) media like that they were just waiting (00:49:24) to just have a grown-up come down on (00:49:26) them like they're so accustomed to it (00:49:28) right (00:49:30) um so we can't pivot to talk about (00:49:33) social media right now well let's go (00:49:35) back to the uh to the to the covid thing (00:49:38) I mean that was a big impetus for you (00:49:41) writing this book and obviously there's (00:49:43) no there's no shortage of (00:49:46) press out there about what's happening (00:49:48) with teens (00:49:50) that is a director in direct results of (00:49:54) of lockdowns and what everyone (00:49:55) experienced the rates of loneliness and (00:49:58) depression and suicide Etc are like (00:50:01) through the roof it's pretty alarming so (00:50:03) how are you thinking about this like (00:50:05) give me your take on what it is that (00:50:09) teens specifically had to endure during (00:50:13) that period of time and the the sort of (00:50:16) short and long-term impact that it's (00:50:18) having on their development yeah (00:50:21) um (00:50:22) I mean it was I had in my home I had a (00:50:26) high schooler and a elementary school (00:50:28) student so I was living with it in my (00:50:32) home (00:50:33) and (00:50:34) the isolation alone (00:50:37) was torture (00:50:38) for a lot of teenagers (00:50:41) um they are just not designed to be (00:50:43) stuck at home with their parents it's (00:50:44) really the opposite of what they should (00:50:45) be doing (00:50:47) and we saw all sorts of things right (00:50:49) incredibly sad teenagers we saw an (00:50:53) explosion of eating disorders and (00:50:58) um (00:50:59) huge anxiety that in some ways we've (00:51:02) seen the aftermath of the anxiety or the (00:51:04) impact of that more now that we're (00:51:05) asking kids to be out in the world right (00:51:07) when kids were required to be at home (00:51:09) they were anxious but they weren't asked (00:51:11) to do anything so their anxiety didn't (00:51:13) actually get stirred up but we are (00:51:15) seeing now across like all districts (00:51:18) like regardless of socioeconomic status (00:51:21) incredible School truancier chronic (00:51:23) absenteeism or you know you could call (00:51:26) it a lot of things but kids just not (00:51:27) going to school like that is something (00:51:28) we are continuing to see (00:51:31) so there were things we know we saw in (00:51:33) the pandemic there are some things we (00:51:34) know we're seeing now so we are seeing (00:51:36) the school truancy question (00:51:39) I think we're still waiting on the data (00:51:41) on what the longer term effects will be (00:51:44) um there was a report that just came out (00:51:46) that was very concerning that reported a (00:51:49) lot of um it was the CDC report a lot of (00:51:51) loneliness a lot of despair (00:51:54) what's tricky about that report is those (00:51:56) data were collected in the fall of 2021 (00:51:58) and they were asking about mood over the (00:52:01) previous year (00:52:03) so when those data came out in February (00:52:05) of this year I went and actually looked (00:52:06) at some writing I had done around that (00:52:08) time in the fall of 2021 about where (00:52:09) we're teenagers they were so miserable (00:52:12) like as a group they were so miserable (00:52:15) because what was happening for them is (00:52:16) they were starting their third school (00:52:18) year disrupted by the pandemic and so (00:52:20) even kids who were going back they were (00:52:22) often going back in masks which they had (00:52:24) strong feelings about (00:52:26) a lot of kids were really anxious about (00:52:28) returning socially a lot of kids were (00:52:30) really scared about getting covered (00:52:33) and even the kids for whom things on the (00:52:35) surface looked really good they were (00:52:37) telling me they're going to take it all (00:52:39) away like we're gonna settle back in and (00:52:41) it's gonna all get ripped away from us (00:52:43) again (00:52:44) so I'm grateful for those data because (00:52:46) they map on to what we were seeing at (00:52:48) the time and I think the thing that's so (00:52:50) hard is there's such a long lag between (00:52:52) the collection of the data and the (00:52:54) release of the data so I'm very eager to (00:52:57) see you know what we find out in a year (00:52:59) because anecdotally we're seeing like in (00:53:02) general kids who are able to go to (00:53:04) school and are back at school in general (00:53:06) like they look pretty good right we have (00:53:08) kids who continue to suffer tremendously (00:53:10) more than there were before the pandemic (00:53:13) but there also was suffering before the (00:53:15) pandemic and we have kids who without (00:53:17) question were knocked off of their (00:53:19) developmental trajectory by the pandemic (00:53:22) but on the whole a lot of teenagers are (00:53:26) looking like teenagers you know and in (00:53:28) the ways that I have recognized for my (00:53:30) whole career (00:53:32) so we're still trying to figure it out (00:53:35) right so so that study I mean I saw a (00:53:38) study recently I don't know if it's the (00:53:40) same one that said something like six (00:53:42) out of ten girls (00:53:44) were reported being persistently sad or (00:53:47) hopeless (00:53:49) um or something like 30 percent of teen (00:53:51) girls had contemplated suicide I don't (00:53:53) know if that's the same it's the same (00:53:54) study so it's reporting back from that (00:53:56) period of time so then the question (00:53:57) becomes how resilient are they are they (00:54:00) bouncing back or not (00:54:02) um you know what can we learn and what (00:54:03) what you know where where might we be (00:54:06) going wrong by reading too much into (00:54:08) this I suppose (00:54:09) that is a worry I have which is when (00:54:13) those data come out and (00:54:16) a lot of the way it gets reported (00:54:19) leaves readers with the impression these (00:54:22) are fresh numbers (00:54:24) I think it's very scary to parents and (00:54:27) then I have concerns as a psychologist (00:54:29) of like well if we if we terrify parents (00:54:31) that does not actually make it easier (00:54:33) for them to serve as a steady presence (00:54:35) in the face of adolescent emotionality (00:54:37) so there's this very delicate dance of (00:54:39) both wanting to raise awareness making (00:54:41) sure we are incredibly attentive to (00:54:43) warning signs and when we should be (00:54:45) I'm very concerned about teenagers and (00:54:48) speeding them towards care (00:54:51) versus also not rejecting all of that (00:54:53) putting everybody on the ceiling right (00:54:58) um (00:54:59) the other wrinkle to that also has to do (00:55:02) with gender differences which we haven't (00:55:05) talked about yet (00:55:06) um (00:55:08) in the most General sense girls are (00:55:10) going to be more likely to kind of (00:55:12) report their emotions right whereas boys (00:55:15) process these challenging times (00:55:17) differently and perhaps are more likely (00:55:20) to be acting out than reporting that (00:55:23) they're anxious or depressed or or sad (00:55:25) right so that also skews the the (00:55:28) viability of those data points (00:55:32) I mean so these are self-report studies (00:55:34) so they're asking about distress (00:55:36) the girls who were surveyed reported a (00:55:38) great deal of distress exactly what you (00:55:41) said we would expect to see the (00:55:42) corollary the one of the rules in (00:55:43) Psychology is girls collapse in on (00:55:45) themselves under distress boys tend to (00:55:47) act out (00:55:49) I don't know that you're going to get a (00:55:50) super faithful accounting all the time (00:55:52) of boys describing all of the ways they (00:55:54) were hard on their family or the people (00:55:56) around them as an expression of distress (00:55:57) and so um the girls do come out looking (00:56:00) pretty bad relative to boys but I'm not (00:56:03) sure that's a very (00:56:04) um detailed or subtle or nuanced picture (00:56:07) of what was happening for boys who also (00:56:10) can mask their sadness just by (00:56:12) withdrawal right but even under the most (00:56:15) kind of liberal or generous you know (00:56:17) review of that study or those data (00:56:19) points it's clear like it's not great no (00:56:23) matter how you split it like it's a [ __ ] (00:56:25) show and we should be paying attention (00:56:27) and try to understand what was driving (00:56:29) that and how to you know kind of course (00:56:31) correct that right like similarly you (00:56:34) know we had uh uh now 15 who 13 year old (00:56:37) and it was really hard really hard like (00:56:40) very lonely and very difficult and of (00:56:42) course the isolation is gonna drive more (00:56:46) screen time more social media usage (00:56:49) which is then you know compelling that (00:56:52) person to be in that mode of comparison (00:56:54) and these people are living their lives (00:56:57) this way but I'm over here and like (00:56:59) that's driving low self-esteem like (00:57:01) there's you know there's a lot going on (00:57:03) there right so (00:57:04) social media is not um benign in any of (00:57:08) this so how do you wrap your head around (00:57:10) that or or you know speak about that (00:57:12) when you go out and talk to kids in (00:57:13) schools and in your counseling (00:57:16) so the social media research has (00:57:19) complicated the views on it are (00:57:21) complicated (00:57:22) um (00:57:24) here's my take on it I have a lot of (00:57:27) thoughts about it but here's some one is (00:57:31) when I think about kids in the pandemic (00:57:32) and social media part of me is like (00:57:34) thank goodness they had a way to stay (00:57:37) plugged in I mean can you imagine if (00:57:38) during our own adolescence we were stuck (00:57:41) in the house like we were and like three (00:57:43) channels three channels and one phone (00:57:45) line right I mean that would have been (00:57:48) even worse I think in many ways so their (00:57:50) ability to stay connected had value (00:57:53) the thing that make made me nervous and (00:57:56) continues to make me very nervous about (00:57:58) social media is the algorithm-driven (00:58:01) nature of what kids are presented and so (00:58:04) that anything a kid I think most people (00:58:06) know this but I think it's still worth (00:58:07) articulating actually anything a kid or (00:58:09) that we (00:58:10) spends time looking at or searches for (00:58:12) or likes or comments on the algorithms (00:58:15) driving these (00:58:17) um social media platforms we'll pick (00:58:18) that data up and then present them more (00:58:20) of that in the aim of getting them to (00:58:22) not be able to look away (00:58:24) and what I think about with those (00:58:27) algorithms are norms that teenagers are (00:58:30) very vulnerable to the Norms in their (00:58:32) environment and so when I think back to (00:58:34) the like the Eating Disorders finding (00:58:36) where we just saw so many eating (00:58:38) disorders in the pandemic (00:58:40) there's a pretty decent consensus that (00:58:42) probably what drove a lot of that is (00:58:43) that we have kids who are home they have (00:58:45) tons of time on their hands they have (00:58:47) tons of like energy to do something so (00:58:49) they do a little searching for Fitness (00:58:51) or weight control or whatever the (00:58:55) algorithms pick this up and start (00:58:57) flooding their feeds with (00:59:00) imagery related to dieting or advice on (00:59:03) dieting and in the absence of leaving (00:59:06) the home doing other things looking at (00:59:08) other people this becomes the norm and (00:59:11) it no longer seems strange to you know (00:59:15) Ultra (00:59:16) diet do things that are actually really (00:59:18) really dangerous (00:59:20) and so when I worry about social media (00:59:23) what I worry about is that it can shift (00:59:26) the norms for kids and change what they (00:59:28) think to be typical and so (00:59:30) um there are a couple of situations that (00:59:32) I was aware of clinically where it was (00:59:35) actually the older sister who went to (00:59:37) parents about I think it was in both (00:59:40) cases a 13 year old boy saying you all (00:59:42) need to know (00:59:44) he went down a white supremacy rabbit (00:59:46) hole and is way down it (00:59:49) and the parents like didn't know had (00:59:52) didn't really have no but for these boys (00:59:54) who are home nothing else going on this (00:59:57) becomes normed and things that should be (00:59:59) horrifying (01:00:01) start to just become kind of standard (01:00:03) right gets normalized yeah yeah it's (01:00:05) really scary uh you know obviously in (01:00:08) the in the teen girl context it's issues (01:00:11) around body dysmorphia Etc you know they (01:00:14) can be quite pernicious (01:00:16) um but there's something particularly uh (01:00:19) scary about The Lonely disenfranchised (01:00:24) young male teen who you know is looking (01:00:27) for an identity and is vulnerable and (01:00:31) stumbles upon you know whether it's (01:00:33) Andrew Tate or some you know some other (01:00:35) kind of emblem of toxic masculinity that (01:00:40) that is then telling that person you (01:00:42) know something that's that's nourishing (01:00:44) them in a negative way unbeknownst to (01:00:47) oversight or parents or anything like (01:00:49) that I mean this is pervasive right and (01:00:52) you know that young person who can kind (01:00:55) of unbeknownst to you know their parents (01:00:58) or whoever for a period of time is down (01:01:00) a certain kind a rabbit hole like that (01:01:02) this is this becomes a very volatile you (01:01:06) know potentially dangerous situation (01:01:07) it's not like Scott Galloway talks about (01:01:09) this all the time like that you know the (01:01:11) the the (01:01:13) um (01:01:13) you know the the lonely young man is a (01:01:16) very danger can be a very dangerous (01:01:18) thing and and there is a a certain type (01:01:20) of Crisis around that right now yeah no (01:01:23) we're (01:01:23) with that and (01:01:25) and yet in the spirit of not terrifying (01:01:27) parents and leaving it there you know (01:01:29) one of the things I would say is make (01:01:31) sure you know what's on your kids for (01:01:32) you page of tick tock right I mean that (01:01:34) there are ways for parents to acquaint (01:01:36) themselves that's tricky though I know (01:01:38) that is very as a yeah I can tell you (01:01:41) yeah you know there's all kinds of (01:01:44) finsta accounts and like you know (01:01:46) multiple accounts like I you know it's (01:01:48) very hard yeah for a parent to like (01:01:51) delicately dance around that like you (01:01:53) want your child to have some autonomy (01:01:55) and and you know respect their privacy (01:01:57) not be invasive while also being able to (01:02:01) kind of monitor that is easier said than (01:02:03) done it is true it is true the other (01:02:06) thing I would say is delay delay as much (01:02:09) as you can on social media (01:02:12) um when I talk with high schoolers (01:02:14) they're like we're not the ones you need (01:02:15) to be worried about it's the seventh (01:02:16) graders and I think that's often there's (01:02:19) that I think that they're you know (01:02:21) seventh graders are you know 12 to 13 (01:02:23) they're very Concrete in their thinking (01:02:24) they're not necessarily able to stand (01:02:26) back from what they're looking at and (01:02:28) wonder like what is behind this or why (01:02:30) might this be happening (01:02:31) I don't think it's true that the high (01:02:34) schoolers are entirely insulated from it (01:02:36) anymore but I also take them at their (01:02:38) word that if you you know if you really (01:02:39) want to worry about this like you should (01:02:41) be worried about the seventh graders or (01:02:42) the eighth graders who are going down (01:02:44) these roads and one thing parents can (01:02:47) consider is when kids are asking for (01:02:50) access (01:02:51) a lot of times it's so they can stay (01:02:53) connected and be connected and a lot of (01:02:55) times having the ability to text their (01:02:58) friends will go pretty far for a while (01:03:00) that when we give kids technology or we (01:03:02) give kids phones I don't think parents (01:03:05) should feel like they hand over the (01:03:06) whole thing at once you can give (01:03:09) I have given a young teenager a phone (01:03:12) that has no browser no social media apps (01:03:15) the ability to text and ride that as (01:03:17) long as you can while the brain is (01:03:19) developing and perspective is coming in (01:03:21) yeah you talk about this in the book (01:03:23) like (01:03:24) the young person is so desperate to get (01:03:27) onto these social media apps that you're (01:03:30) in a position of power to dictate terms (01:03:32) right you're like okay well we'll do (01:03:33) that but then I'm gonna have to be I'm (01:03:35) gonna have to have the login credential (01:03:36) and so like they'll agree to that (01:03:38) because they want to they want to be on (01:03:41) online so badly absolutely I miss that (01:03:44) whole boat by the way well a lot of (01:03:45) parents do right I mean it's mostly it's (01:03:48) a hazard to be a psychologist parent (01:03:49) occasionally though it gives me the leg (01:03:51) up right because I've seen these things (01:03:53) before I have to do them in my own home (01:03:55) and and I think truly what it is is that (01:03:58) kids want to be able to show their (01:03:59) friends they have the device I mean (01:04:01) often like that is more powerful than I (01:04:04) think a lot of adults realize and so you (01:04:06) truly can say all right you want the (01:04:07) device you can have the device (01:04:09) you know and it will have all these (01:04:11) parameters around it and it also will (01:04:12) not go in your bedroom right that's (01:04:14) that's a great one to start with (01:04:17) um and if you can ride that all the way (01:04:18) through high school that is fantastic (01:04:20) but if you but if that has already been (01:04:22) breached good luck reversing it's very (01:04:24) hard to it is very hard to get that (01:04:26) horse back in the barn I I will be the (01:04:28) first to admit so all those parents of (01:04:30) younger kids out there this is a great (01:04:32) rule to start with as opposed to try to (01:04:34) implement later (01:04:35) um and kids will agree to anything to (01:04:37) get their hands on the device so make (01:04:39) the most of your leverage in that moment (01:04:40) yeah I often think about the ratio like (01:04:45) it's it's it's how you interface and use (01:04:47) these things right like are you using (01:04:49) them to create or to consume like in a (01:04:52) very binary sense like are you like on (01:04:55) Photoshop and making cool photo you know (01:04:57) sharing making videos that you can share (01:04:59) is there some kind of creative (01:05:00) stimulation aspect to it where you're (01:05:03) contributing or are you just receiving (01:05:05) and consuming (01:05:07) um and then beyond that on you know the (01:05:09) kind of social piece (01:05:12) um I found to your point about how (01:05:14) teenager teenagers are so creatively (01:05:16) adaptive like during the pandemic and (01:05:19) even now (01:05:20) um I found like our kids will just have (01:05:23) FaceTime on with their friend and like (01:05:26) they're not it's just on in the room (01:05:27) while they're doing homework or doing (01:05:29) whatever else so they feel connected to (01:05:31) somebody else even though they're alone (01:05:33) in their room and maybe they'll talk to (01:05:35) each other here and there but it's just (01:05:36) like this idea like oh we're together (01:05:38) even though we're not together yeah like (01:05:40) what it like that's a use case that I (01:05:43) don't think any adult would have ever (01:05:44) conceptualized but I think that's a (01:05:46) pretty common thing now right absolutely (01:05:48) which is cool like I think that's a good (01:05:51) like that's a cool workaround for that (01:05:54) piece of technology yeah no it's it's (01:05:56) very scary I know a lot of kids who (01:05:57) study that way you know and I I I am (01:06:00) I've entertained it myself with time so (01:06:02) not you know you have a big bunch of (01:06:03) work and you feel sort of isolated with (01:06:05) it if they're if you weren't alone you (01:06:06) know you'd feel better (01:06:07) it's an interesting I'll tell you where (01:06:09) it takes a very interesting turn (01:06:11) is um it makes it can make adolescent (01:06:14) romances very wall to wall you know that (01:06:16) when teenagers are dating one another (01:06:19) um it's not uncommon for them to wake up (01:06:22) text each other (01:06:23) good morning have each other on all the (01:06:27) time be in constant contact I mean (01:06:30) honestly vastly more connection than I (01:06:32) have with my own spouse it sounds (01:06:35) terrible (01:06:36) they like it but then what's interesting (01:06:39) is if the relationship ends I mean the (01:06:41) size of the whole it leaves in The Young (01:06:44) Person's life is just enormous because (01:06:47) they have had such pervasive connection (01:06:50) what about the notion of of you know (01:06:53) group identity and the politics around (01:06:56) that like I just can't fathom (01:06:59) being a teenager and being able to know (01:07:02) what everyone in my class is doing all (01:07:05) the time you know whether I'm included (01:07:07) whether I'm disincluded and if I'm (01:07:09) disincluded being able to like see them (01:07:11) out in the world doing that thing that I (01:07:13) wasn't invited to do and then in the (01:07:16) comments section everybody you know (01:07:18) taking others down a Peg and the (01:07:21) bullying that happens there like it just (01:07:23) sounds horrific I know I know I don't (01:07:27) you look at that and think oh we were so (01:07:29) lucky 100 so lucky like we're just naive (01:07:32) to all the things we weren't invited to (01:07:34) and this psychic pain that that must (01:07:37) cause and you must see that in your (01:07:39) practice every day I do and I truly will (01:07:44) say you know it's interesting there are (01:07:45) things that we can collapse that we (01:07:47) don't want to collapse so we don't want (01:07:48) to collapse social media or technology (01:07:50) because like you say like these have a (01:07:51) lot of facets that are interesting and (01:07:52) often adaptive for kids (01:07:54) and we also don't want to collapse (01:07:56) teenager because truly 12 11 (01:08:00) no 12 13 14. (01:08:04) is so different from 16 17 18 in terms (01:08:08) of their ability to navigate these (01:08:09) things so where I would say that really (01:08:13) Exquisite pain around what you're just (01:08:15) describing that's younger teens 12 13 (01:08:18) 14 (01:08:19) um because they are still working so (01:08:21) hard to establish identity and they are (01:08:22) still trying to figure out where they (01:08:23) fit in and they don't have that (01:08:26) solidified usually yet (01:08:29) and so it is exquisitely painful and (01:08:32) they are watching that so so so (01:08:34) attentively whereas typically and this (01:08:37) is a little delayed by the pandemic but (01:08:39) it's it's I think coming back to more (01:08:41) the Norms we've known before by (01:08:43) sophomore year 15 years old kids tend to (01:08:46) be like nope I know who my friends are (01:08:47) and I know what we're up to and I'm not (01:08:49) so anxious about what everybody else is (01:08:50) doing (01:08:51) and so (01:08:53) just in terms of trying to um narrow the (01:08:55) scope of when parents want to be really (01:08:57) attentive about this or when they want (01:08:59) to worry or when they want to try to (01:09:00) delay delay delay on access it's not all (01:09:03) of adolescence it's it's I would say (01:09:06) through seventh eighth maybe early ninth (01:09:08) grade where that is the hardest hmm (01:09:12) I'm just imagining the marginalized kid (01:09:15) who isn't invited then goes home and (01:09:18) compulsively goes online to see to kind (01:09:21) of bear witness to the thing that he was (01:09:23) you know disincluded from and that only (01:09:26) feeds like a deeper sense of of (01:09:29) insecurity and and you know uh lowering (01:09:32) the self-esteem Etc and you know yes as (01:09:36) you get a little bit older and you kind (01:09:38) of emerge out of that but that's going (01:09:40) to calcify right and then that's going (01:09:42) to become very difficult to repair once (01:09:46) that sense of self-identity kind of (01:09:48) cements it could be it could be whereas (01:09:51) prior to that sorry to interrupt but (01:09:53) like prior to that yeah they're (01:09:54) disincluded but they go home and they (01:09:56) forget about it because they have other (01:09:57) things that nourish them outside of the (01:09:59) classroom but to your point earlier like (01:10:02) you're never away like you're always (01:10:05) connected you're always on yeah (01:10:07) and that piece I mean it's just so much (01:10:10) information right to try to metabolize (01:10:12) and take in (01:10:14) um what I will say is thank goodness for (01:10:19) the kids you're describing (01:10:20) we are now back in a position where (01:10:22) there could be activities that that (01:10:25) could be participating in things that (01:10:27) could be set up in terms of after school (01:10:28) so maybe maybe it's not going great with (01:10:30) the pure (01:10:32) landscape at school but then I would say (01:10:34) get that kid busy with other things (01:10:36) right that they need to be in traffic (01:10:39) patterns where they're around other kids (01:10:40) where they may find other friends (01:10:43) um and part of what was so horrible (01:10:45) about the pandemic is that all of that (01:10:47) went away and the other thing that went (01:10:50) away that we don't talk about nearly (01:10:52) enough is it part of what is so (01:10:55) important for teenagers is actually (01:10:56) connection with caring adults outside (01:10:58) the home that so much of what's good for (01:11:01) teenagers happens with like the fabulous (01:11:02) teacher or The Fabulous Coach or the (01:11:05) great boss or whatever and teenagers (01:11:07) lost all that too in the pandemic and so (01:11:10) when we're looking for explanations of (01:11:13) where things want to arrive for (01:11:15) teenagers that's one that I think like (01:11:17) deserves a lot more consideration than (01:11:19) we've given it (01:11:20) um I think that's a really important (01:11:22) point that (01:11:23) the impact of you know coaches mentors (01:11:26) teachers like it takes a village kind of (01:11:28) thing and even before the pandemic you (01:11:31) know we have seen the you know kind of (01:11:36) um exacerbation of of isolation the (01:11:40) dissolution of the kind of Village (01:11:42) notion of you know how we live and you (01:11:45) know certainly in Los Angeles it's so (01:11:47) dispersed the notion of community is (01:11:51) theoretical at best so I think there's a (01:11:54) general kind of denigration of that (01:11:56) notion that covid you know and the (01:11:59) lockdowns and all of that just (01:12:00) exacerbated and now even on the other (01:12:02) side of it (01:12:03) [Music] (01:12:04) we still haven't (01:12:06) um I mean we're still kind of in the (01:12:08) wake of it right like still it's like (01:12:10) well we'll Zoom for that instead of go (01:12:13) to per like we've acclimated to certain (01:12:15) lifestyle habits because of that (01:12:18) experience that I don't think are (01:12:21) necessarily all that healthy and (01:12:22) definitely not in service to the young (01:12:25) people I think that's right so then if (01:12:28) we think about okay well so there's an (01:12:29) opening (01:12:30) you know I think about all of us looking (01:12:32) at these youth mental health headlines (01:12:34) worried about the crisis and what I (01:12:36) would say is even if you're not yourself (01:12:38) raising teenagers you can help with this (01:12:41) right that there are ways in which (01:12:43) adults can make meaningful connections (01:12:46) with teenagers either through mentorship (01:12:47) or you know being a great boss or being (01:12:49) an incredible neighbor or an Incredible (01:12:52) uncle right I mean sometimes (01:12:54) teenagers will have like really powerful (01:12:56) relationships with (01:12:58) family members who weren't their parents (01:13:00) that will help them through incredible (01:13:02) things sure they they need that because (01:13:03) they can't hear it from their parents (01:13:05) like the parents are not supposed to be (01:13:07) the people who are kind of let me let me (01:13:09) sit you down and give you the life (01:13:10) advice they they don't want to hear from (01:13:12) their parents but they will hear it from (01:13:14) that other Elder that they sort of (01:13:16) respect and and maybe Revere who just (01:13:19) has (01:13:20) that ability to connect with them that a (01:13:22) parent you know will never be able to (01:13:24) have yeah no I I would say a huge (01:13:27) percentage of my clinical work is saying (01:13:29) the exact same thing that the parents (01:13:31) themselves would say or have said but (01:13:32) they can hear it from me yeah I mean I'm (01:13:35) like I'm sorry that I need to charge you (01:13:37) for this because you are covering this (01:13:38) at home but this yeah that's a lot of (01:13:41) the work yeah and and when those moments (01:13:43) arise and the and and the kid is talking (01:13:45) to you (01:13:48) um you know another Mantra that I always (01:13:49) use is just tell me more like instead of (01:13:52) let me tell you how to fix this or I (01:13:55) can't believe you did like judgment like (01:13:57) we're you know like not trying to solve (01:13:58) the problem not telling them what they (01:14:00) did wrong but just oh that must be hard (01:14:03) like tell me more about what that must (01:14:05) be like if I can and I'm not saying I'm (01:14:07) great at this but when I can do that (01:14:09) like that seems to be something that (01:14:12) will (01:14:13) you know create a little bit of a safe (01:14:15) Zone that will make the kid open up even (01:14:18) a little bit more yeah I'll tell you my (01:14:20) version of that is I am (01:14:23) I always work with the assumption that (01:14:25) teenagers have two sides that they have (01:14:27) a you know the side that maybe did the (01:14:29) Dome thing and it's impulsive and maybe (01:14:31) immature and you know maybe (01:14:33) self-centered (01:14:34) and they also have a side that is (01:14:37) philosophical and broad-minded and (01:14:41) you know an excellent self-advocate and (01:14:44) deeply thoughtful and so even when a kid (01:14:47) is telling me about something that feels (01:14:49) you know like they should totally not (01:14:51) have done that or you know like it was (01:14:52) just a really bonehead move (01:14:56) one of the ways I'll try to engage it is (01:14:57) I'll try to talk to the broad-minded (01:15:00) side about what happened like gosh (01:15:03) that's so not like you like what do you (01:15:05) make of that like how do you understand (01:15:07) that you did that (01:15:09) and and I find they usually rise to it (01:15:11) like that the side of the teenager you (01:15:13) talk to is the side you end up in (01:15:15) conversation with so if you come down (01:15:17) and I'm like what was that well then (01:15:18) you're gonna get you know go you don't (01:15:20) understand and you know that that (01:15:22) reactive part of the teenager and if you (01:15:24) even if you don't see it if you talk to (01:15:26) that vastly more mature side it will (01:15:29) usually show up and how do you how do (01:15:32) you balance that against the idea that (01:15:35) you know young people need guard rails (01:15:37) they want to you know they feel more (01:15:39) secure when they know there are rules (01:15:41) and there's you know ramifications for (01:15:43) breaking those rules and not that (01:15:45) anybody should be some kind of rigorous (01:15:47) Taskmaster but there is wisdom and kind (01:15:50) of reinforcing some kind of framework (01:15:53) around what's okay and what's not and (01:15:55) there's you know there's there's you (01:15:58) know ramifications for those breaches (01:16:02) um I think they can live side by side so (01:16:04) when we look at the research and when we (01:16:06) distill all of it on like what kids need (01:16:08) at home it's two things they need warmth (01:16:10) and they need need structure so I think (01:16:13) you can actually bring both so say a kid (01:16:15) does something really that they should (01:16:16) not have done you can have the structure (01:16:18) of saying all right that comes with (01:16:20) consequences right you know there's a (01:16:21) breach of trust we got to be able to (01:16:22) trust you to let you go out and about so (01:16:24) you will be hanging out with us for the (01:16:26) next couple of weekends (01:16:27) and then the warmth can come and be like (01:16:29) what happened like that's so not like (01:16:33) you like that it's not an either or (01:16:36) um right and and I would just say you (01:16:38) know if parents are like where am I (01:16:40) supposed to be in all of this if they (01:16:42) just keep going back to that idea (01:16:44) you want to be warm they want to you (01:16:45) want to feel you're you want your kids (01:16:47) to feel that you both love them and also (01:16:49) actually like them (01:16:50) and you want to have structure that (01:16:52) there should be a predictability to (01:16:53) family life that the rules should make (01:16:55) sense that the rules should be enforced (01:16:57) that kids are going to know what's going (01:16:58) to happen and kids do like rules (01:17:00) teenagers do like rules they don't like (01:17:02) loosey-goosey adults (01:17:05) um I think all the time about moments in (01:17:08) my practice where a teenager would float (01:17:11) in front of me something like um oh you (01:17:14) know we were at Susie's house and (01:17:15) Susie's Mama buy for us and they put it (01:17:18) out in this way like you know and I'll (01:17:21) go really and they go I know it's so (01:17:24) weird I don't know why she does that and (01:17:27) and I've learned that they'll often um (01:17:29) present something kind of neutrally to (01:17:31) like check to see how you respond (01:17:33) and even when (01:17:36) they've seem to be neutral to like (01:17:38) positive about it if I've stayed with my (01:17:40) gut and been like what they're like (01:17:42) thank you right they're so glad I think (01:17:45) of another example (01:17:48) I was caring for the kid of a (01:17:49) pediatrician in my community and it came (01:17:52) up (01:17:53) that (01:17:54) she was having her boyfriend was staying (01:17:57) overnight in her bedroom (01:17:59) um (01:18:00) and they were in high school which so in (01:18:02) America like that's not really very (01:18:03) typical and and I said oh your folks (01:18:08) were okay with that and she said I know (01:18:10) I don't know why they are you know and (01:18:12) and she had presented it like um (01:18:15) this is just kind of happening and when (01:18:17) I called the question she she it turns (01:18:19) out she was asking me a question and (01:18:20) telling me about it that's super (01:18:22) interesting (01:18:23) wild yeah (01:18:25) the best thing here's the thing about (01:18:27) teenagers (01:18:29) they are like (01:18:31) so able to detect dishonesty and (01:18:34) hypocrisy like so much better than at (01:18:36) any point in life like better than kids (01:18:38) better than adults (01:18:40) and they really really respect honesty (01:18:43) like they really respect it and so (01:18:45) sometimes if I'm doing an intake with a (01:18:48) kid who's in my office because they've (01:18:50) gotten themselves in trouble with (01:18:51) drinking or something like that (01:18:53) I will say are you worried about your (01:18:56) drinking like that's usually how I'll (01:18:57) start by asking (01:18:59) and sometimes kids will say actually yes (01:19:01) you know and then we're off to one (01:19:03) conversation (01:19:04) and sometimes they'll say (01:19:06) no or I don't know and I will say I (01:19:09) don't know yet how I feel about your (01:19:11) drinking I'm just gonna keep you posted (01:19:13) but based on what you're telling me I'm (01:19:14) not so sure (01:19:16) that this is working for you or that (01:19:18) this is safe what you're describing and (01:19:21) I'm Amazed by how accepting they are of (01:19:24) that like they would so much rather you (01:19:25) play your cards face up even if they (01:19:27) don't like your cards then have it seem (01:19:30) like you're bluffing hmm (01:19:32) yeah I mean I think the the the [ __ ] (01:19:35) detector is super finely tuned you know (01:19:39) at that age (01:19:41) and uh is very strategically and (01:19:44) effectively weaponized against the (01:19:46) parent at just the right time like you (01:19:49) know what I mean like they know exit (01:19:51) because no parents perfect right and and (01:19:54) teenagers are paying attention and they (01:19:57) know a lot more about how you who you (01:19:59) are and how you behave than you might (01:20:00) realize (01:20:02) and uh you know don't don't don't uh you (01:20:06) know people in glass houses shouldn't (01:20:07) throw stones and so when you know the (01:20:09) parent comes down on the teen don't be (01:20:12) surprised when the Barb that comes back (01:20:14) is just you know absolutely Savage yeah (01:20:18) and and dead on that's what makes it in (01:20:22) the most honest and like insightful way (01:20:24) yeah to your knees it can be it'll be (01:20:27) brutal and I have in myself I'm (01:20:30) compulsively honest like I just like (01:20:31) okay and I think that's why I like (01:20:33) teenagers because I feel like if I'm (01:20:34) doing right by them like if if if they (01:20:37) feel like I'm (01:20:39) I'm all right by them then I feel like (01:20:41) that I must be right on the right that's (01:20:44) like that's a very insightful thing to (01:20:47) understand I think yeah no they have (01:20:50) very high standards um and you can lose (01:20:52) their faith quickly (01:20:54) um but it was interesting I I was at a (01:20:57) school where I was asking (01:20:59) kids what they wanted me to tell my (01:21:00) their parents when I met with their (01:21:02) parents later in the evening and (01:21:04) they said all sorts of things that I (01:21:06) thought were fair and I was writing them (01:21:07) down and one kid said could you tell my (01:21:09) parents to please remove all the screen (01:21:10) time restrictions and I said yeah I'm (01:21:12) not doing that and she was like okay (01:21:15) like she would have really thought (01:21:17) blessed me if I was like yeah (01:21:19) I gave it a shot yeah I was like right (01:21:21) and she's like okay right and and so I I (01:21:25) encourage people to just play their (01:21:26) cards face up with teenagers (01:21:28) one final thing I wanted to ask you (01:21:30) about the covet stuff before we move off (01:21:32) of that completely (01:21:34) um is something I've noticed around (01:21:38) uh just how uh uh teens are are kind of (01:21:43) processing and dealing with a low-grade (01:21:46) kind of chronic fear like if kova did (01:21:50) anything it kind of taught young people (01:21:51) like the world's a scary place you (01:21:53) should be afraid there's this invisible (01:21:55) thing out there that might harm you and (01:21:57) you need to wear masks or stay at home (01:21:59) or stay away from people and then on top (01:22:02) of that you know policy decisions that (01:22:05) were controversial and you know maybe we (01:22:07) can't trust adults to do the right thing (01:22:10) and it creates a very insecure kind of (01:22:12) unstable perspective of the world as (01:22:15) your mind is developing and that kind of (01:22:19) um (01:22:20) uh you know residue of that I think (01:22:22) still persists like you know there are (01:22:25) kids who even now it seems relatively (01:22:28) safer you know like but they insist on (01:22:30) wearing masks when they're outdoors and (01:22:32) things like that I was like what is (01:22:33) going on like yeah you know this is like (01:22:36) not a healthy you know way to kind of (01:22:39) navigate the world thinking that a (01:22:42) terrible thing could happen at any (01:22:44) moment and we should all be very afraid (01:22:46) all the time like that has to be the (01:22:47) mentality that would drive that kind of (01:22:50) behavior (01:22:51) yeah I (01:22:53) I mean I really don't know that we (01:22:55) wrapped our heads around how the (01:22:57) pandemic rocked us (01:22:59) and I think actually for a lot of people (01:23:01) it was a real loss of Innocence you know (01:23:02) around like how the world operates and I (01:23:04) I mean I think so so you know if we (01:23:07) think back to like I'd place it around (01:23:09) March 13th 14th of 2020 when you were (01:23:12) living your life one way one day and (01:23:14) then completely upended the next (01:23:18) so I think it has Jarred teenagers and I (01:23:20) think (01:23:21) um (01:23:22) there are kids who (01:23:24) started to use avoidance and withdrawal (01:23:26) as a way to manage that distress and (01:23:28) that stock and then that can happen (01:23:29) avoidance feeds anxiety the more you (01:23:32) avoid what you fear the more you become (01:23:34) afraid of it and continue to avoid (01:23:36) but I think there's also something even (01:23:38) bigger than that which is (01:23:41) teenagers like they follow the news (01:23:43) and unfortunately for them and for all (01:23:46) of us the news is with us now all day (01:23:48) every day (01:23:49) and they think about things like climate (01:23:51) change they think about gun violence a (01:23:53) lot there are a lot of kids who are (01:23:54) really anxious every day in school (01:23:57) because of yours around Gardens (01:24:00) um and and I know there's questions (01:24:03) about like this mental health concern (01:24:04) you know Rising mental health concerns (01:24:06) we're seeing and is it the sort of the (01:24:08) times and if is it made and people will (01:24:10) say well but there was like you know we (01:24:12) grew up in the Cold War where there was (01:24:13) always this sense of like you know (01:24:15) possible nuclear war and then there was (01:24:17) the World War II before that and I think (01:24:20) and so people will dismiss the kind of (01:24:22) you know do me explanation for why (01:24:24) teenagers are distressed but I think (01:24:25) like okay but when I was a teenager the (01:24:28) cold war came to mind every once in a (01:24:31) while right if I happen to read a paper (01:24:33) about it catch a new it wasn't someone (01:24:35) that the day after oh that was horrible (01:24:37) it was the worst I would never forget (01:24:39) that but okay so that was a single (01:24:41) exposure to Media about it and like the (01:24:44) jarring impact it had on us right (01:24:46) whereas kids now are all day long all (01:24:49) day long day all day long when I say to (01:24:51) teenagers here's what you need to (01:24:52) understand (01:24:53) about why this is so stressful for you I (01:24:56) said it used to be that there was the (01:24:57) morning paper in the evening news and (01:24:58) nothing in between and they can't even (01:25:02) believe it and and what a gift that was (01:25:04) too so I think that there's both the (01:25:07) jarring reality of having a virus upend (01:25:10) Our Lives which is not something any of (01:25:11) us I mean we knew theoretically but like (01:25:13) it was like Hollywood movie it wasn't (01:25:15) real thing but I also think we have to (01:25:18) acknowledge that (01:25:20) there are very frightening things that (01:25:23) teenagers I think in particular feel (01:25:25) saddled with like School violence and (01:25:28) also the climate (01:25:30) crisis as it unfolds that they also are (01:25:34) confronted with a lot in a given day (01:25:37) yeah it is a lot and it's the persistent (01:25:40) nature of it yeah like it's just (01:25:42) dripping into their awareness constantly (01:25:44) all day long and they're fed by (01:25:46) algorithms that are that are you know (01:25:49) prioritizing (01:25:51) stream hits like that yeah yeah it's (01:25:53) it's um (01:25:55) so what do we do so (01:25:57) part of what I think is (01:25:59) there have to be parameters around how (01:26:02) much (01:26:02) kids have their phones right and so this (01:26:05) is why I love not having them in (01:26:06) bedrooms if you can set that up (01:26:08) why I love it when kids are busy not (01:26:10) over scheduled but busy you know doing (01:26:11) stuff that just has them engaged has (01:26:13) them in theater groups has them in (01:26:15) sports has them making things has them (01:26:17) helping in the community (01:26:20) we're not getting rid of technology in (01:26:21) kids lives (01:26:23) I think the goal so much in parenting is (01:26:26) to make sure that it doesn't dominate (01:26:29) a kid's day (01:26:32) one of the things that that uh that I (01:26:34) loved that you initially ask (01:26:39) um a kid who comes into your office is (01:26:40) how you're sleeping yeah it's like yeah (01:26:43) before we even do anything or talk about (01:26:45) anything like what does your self-care (01:26:47) look like like are you even able to you (01:26:49) know be present with me because you're (01:26:51) not are you overlooking like one of the (01:26:53) most fundamental things about just being (01:26:55) okay in your body yeah no it's one (01:26:59) I'm almost hesitant to talk about sleep (01:27:02) because I think everybody knows it we've (01:27:03) all heard it we know we're supposed to (01:27:05) do it and yet the data on it are so (01:27:08) ridiculously clear about it being the (01:27:10) glue that holds us together (01:27:12) and (01:27:13) in that story in the book you know it's (01:27:16) about a kid who's best best friend has (01:27:19) been killed in an accident the kid is (01:27:21) devastated of course and there's going (01:27:23) to be a lot of work to do to help him (01:27:24) through (01:27:25) but I have learned clinically that when (01:27:27) people are in crisis especially I will (01:27:29) start with a question of sleep (01:27:32) and if they're sleeping we will get down (01:27:33) to work on working through the crisis (01:27:35) and if they're not sleeping I will get (01:27:37) down to work on figuring out how to help (01:27:39) them sleep so that we even have a chance (01:27:41) of getting them through (01:27:43) and I think that um this is something (01:27:46) that (01:27:47) we underestimate (01:27:49) and one of the questions that I comes up (01:27:52) a lot now is like what about kids where (01:27:53) they can't get care like they actually (01:27:55) need care and they can't get care (01:27:57) and it's getting better but it's still (01:27:59) not great and part of what contributed (01:28:02) to the Adolescent Mental Health crisis (01:28:03) was both the surge in need (01:28:06) and the reality that caring for (01:28:09) teenagers is a highly specialized field (01:28:10) very few of us do it and it's basically (01:28:13) impossible to scale up the workforce and (01:28:15) so the two together made for a really (01:28:18) tough situation for teenagers (01:28:21) so there have been a lot of teenagers on (01:28:23) wait list there still are a lot of (01:28:25) teenagers on waitlists (01:28:26) and what I'll say to parents is look (01:28:28) it's not a substitute for therapy but (01:28:30) make sure your kid is sleeping make sure (01:28:32) your kid is physically active make sure (01:28:33) they're eating well enough have them do (01:28:36) purposeful things put them in positions (01:28:38) where they're doing service or (01:28:39) activities these things (01:28:42) don't take the place of a really good (01:28:44) clinician doing really good work but (01:28:46) they go very very far often in both (01:28:51) reducing mental health concerns and (01:28:53) certainly in helping to prevent them (01:28:55) it's the low-hanging fruit I mean if I'm (01:28:57) not sleeping or I'm not exercising or (01:28:59) eating right or hydrating or doing any (01:29:01) number of those things I'm gonna feel (01:29:03) depressed and like [ __ ] absolutely so we (01:29:06) can go down a therapeutic rabbit hole (01:29:08) but like fundamentally like if you (01:29:10) correct those things (01:29:12) I'm not saying it's going to solve (01:29:14) somebody's you know Mental Health crisis (01:29:16) but at least it will get you to some (01:29:18) kind of Baseline so you know what you're (01:29:20) dealing with absolutely absolutely and (01:29:22) what I love about that is first of all (01:29:24) we know it's true like the data are so (01:29:26) clear and second of all it is what (01:29:28) parents can do at home their parents (01:29:30) don't have to feel helpless when their (01:29:31) kid is suffering (01:29:33) it's hard when the phone's in the (01:29:35) bedroom though yeah I know okay so let's (01:29:37) let's put this on let's put this head on (01:29:39) yeah if you're like but my kid already (01:29:42) has the phone in the room I gotta get it (01:29:44) out like what can you try let me give (01:29:45) you some suggestions no over promising (01:29:47) here but some suggestions (01:29:49) I think first of all none of us should (01:29:51) have our phones in our rooms I don't (01:29:53) have my phone in my room and so one (01:29:55) thing a parent might do is to say okay (01:29:58) we're making a family-wide rule like (01:30:00) it's all coming out for all of us and of (01:30:02) course the teenager will be like no no (01:30:03) no no no and the parent might consider (01:30:05) saying look it's bad for our sleep it's (01:30:08) bad for your sleep sleep is the glue (01:30:09) that holds us together (01:30:11) for us to take it out of our room and (01:30:14) not ask you to do the same it would be (01:30:16) like we got in the car and we put on our (01:30:17) seat belts but we don't ask you to put (01:30:19) on yours so you can make that case (01:30:21) the other thing to try and again does (01:30:24) that work well I'm offering these (01:30:25) humbling I'm offering because I actually (01:30:27) it means enough to me that I don't want (01:30:29) to just write it off yeah yeah I think (01:30:31) the other thing to try is to say let's (01:30:33) just do (01:30:34) a two to three week experiment like (01:30:37) sometimes teenagers will agree to an (01:30:38) experiment like let's take it out of (01:30:40) your room for a couple weeks and here's (01:30:43) a clock radio to replace all of the (01:30:45) things that you feel that it does (01:30:47) and then see if after a couple weeks (01:30:50) there's not some agreement around this (01:30:52) here's the other thing teenagers like to (01:30:54) know the why and this is again back to (01:30:57) the [ __ ] detector like they'd like (01:30:58) to know the why here's the why (01:31:01) because I said so no that doesn't work (01:31:04) that will work no it'll work up to age (01:31:05) 10. but now we're talking teenagers (01:31:07) right so here's the why we have data (01:31:10) showing that you do not actually get as (01:31:13) good as sleep in a room with technology (01:31:16) in it and the reason for this that the (01:31:19) researcher surmise and I think this is (01:31:21) 1 (01:31:22) is that we are all soap pavlovingly (01:31:25) pavlovianly attached to our devices (01:31:28) that (01:31:29) if they are present (01:31:31) we are deploying a degree of energy to (01:31:34) not engage with them (01:31:36) and I I have such a vivid memory of (01:31:40) having becoming aware of this when my (01:31:42) one of my daughters was in a preschool (01:31:44) well they were both in this preschool I (01:31:45) don't remember which kid it was we're (01:31:47) part of the weighed in for the preschool (01:31:48) was there was a period of time where the (01:31:50) parent was in the room with the child (01:31:51) but you know kind of reading quietly in (01:31:53) a corner (01:31:54) and I would have my phone with me almost (01:31:56) all the time I knew it was tacky to look (01:31:58) at it so I wouldn't look at it but I (01:32:00) could feel myself resisting the impulse (01:32:03) and one day I left it in the car by (01:32:05) accident (01:32:06) and I remember sitting in the room with (01:32:08) her and being aware of how like how much (01:32:09) more deeply present I was in the room (01:32:12) because I had no option of touching my (01:32:14) phone right so it removes that decision (01:32:16) fatigue yep and so researchers think (01:32:19) that even while we are sleeping if there (01:32:23) is a nearby phone a piece of our energy (01:32:26) is being deployed on not engaging with (01:32:30) that thing and so we do not sleep as (01:32:32) well (01:32:34) that's equal parts depressing that we're (01:32:38) we have a lizard brain like that uh and (01:32:41) uh (01:32:44) also alarming I mean it's a it's a (01:32:46) testament on just how powerful they are (01:32:48) right yep (01:32:50) um that's crazy well that's good advice (01:32:52) uh I want to talk a little bit about (01:32:55) dating being a dad I love that you (01:32:59) address this in the book (01:33:01) um (01:33:02) you know of course I'm a dad uh it's (01:33:06) to my mind a little bit (01:33:08) confusing about how to be a dad today (01:33:12) because cultural mores have shifted (01:33:15) quite a bit so the model of like you (01:33:19) know the generation that preceded us (01:33:21) like what my dad you know embodied as a (01:33:25) father figure (01:33:27) is now very different in terms of like (01:33:30) expectations you have to be you know (01:33:33) it's you don't have to be the provider (01:33:35) but there's sort of a you know I'm going (01:33:37) to provide for my family and I'm going (01:33:39) to be the head of household and I have (01:33:41) to be you know strong and firm but I (01:33:44) also have to be emotionally available (01:33:45) and have to be able to go to all the (01:33:47) school activities a Tuesday at one (01:33:49) o'clock in the afternoon and it feels (01:33:51) like you you kind of have to be all (01:33:54) things all the time all at once (01:33:57) um which you know as somebody I talked (01:34:00) to a lot of dads and I think there's a (01:34:02) lot of dads who are confused about how (01:34:05) to fulfill all of those buckets (01:34:09) and Be an Effective dad to a teenager (01:34:13) yeah (01:34:15) well (01:34:16) it's interesting because on the one hand (01:34:18) I hate (01:34:20) the sense of anyone feeling so spread (01:34:22) thin right or having such a sense of (01:34:25) like so much all at once and and a (01:34:27) really um strong sense of obligation to (01:34:29) try to meet it all and and be so good at (01:34:31) it (01:34:32) on the other hand a way we could turn (01:34:35) this a little (01:34:36) is like how wonderful that dads are now (01:34:40) Under the Umbrella of also being in the (01:34:42) nurturing role you know how sad that (01:34:45) there was a period where dads were out (01:34:48) were not included in that tent you know (01:34:50) of being a nurturer within the family (01:34:54) and what I would say is again our kids (01:34:59) are not in the house that long (01:35:01) it's short it's really short and (01:35:05) I I have a pretty high tolerance for the (01:35:08) idea that in the 18 years or so that (01:35:11) they're living in our homes (01:35:13) we're going to be spread pretty thin (01:35:15) and (01:35:18) it's easier I think to tolerate that if (01:35:20) you're like this is really time limited (01:35:21) like I'm not doing this this long (01:35:24) and then if there's a day where any (01:35:26) parent (01:35:27) of any gender is feeling like I didn't (01:35:29) bring my A-game at every single thing (01:35:31) what I would say is (01:35:34) warmth and structure (01:35:36) those are the two things we're trying to (01:35:37) provide (01:35:38) I don't think you can get an A plus on (01:35:40) both on any day because often you're (01:35:42) doing one or the other they're trading (01:35:44) off against each other a little bit (01:35:46) so if you can go for like a b b average (01:35:49) B minus average B plus average like on (01:35:52) your warmth and on your structure your (01:35:53) ability to be present and engaged in a (01:35:56) loving way with your kids your ability (01:35:57) to help create a predictable environment (01:36:00) kids will do the rest like I I think one (01:36:03) of the coolest things about my job (01:36:06) is that (01:36:07) sometimes I will (01:36:09) in school consultation work I'll know a (01:36:11) kid for a long time and then I'll meet (01:36:14) the parent and I'll be like wow this kid (01:36:16) is doing so well in light of who these (01:36:19) parents are right that's a recurring (01:36:21) theme in the book too it's like you meet (01:36:23) with the kid and the parents are all (01:36:25) freaked out and you're like actually the (01:36:26) kids got this dialed and like you people (01:36:28) are the ones who need to get your [ __ ] (01:36:30) together a little bit sometimes and so (01:36:32) what I hope parents take away from that (01:36:34) is like a sense of reassurance of like (01:36:35) really like kids Bend towards Health (01:36:37) kids are often fundamentally adaptive or (01:36:41) if they're not getting it at home they (01:36:42) will get it somewhere right I mean so (01:36:44) many of us thrived in homes where life (01:36:47) at home wasn't what it was supposed to (01:36:48) be but we found fabulous teachers or (01:36:51) fabulous mentors so (01:36:55) I know for sure that guilt does not (01:36:58) improve parenting and fear does not (01:37:00) improve parenting (01:37:02) and so if (01:37:04) those of us who are raising teenagers (01:37:06) can try to keep those two things under (01:37:09) control we'll just do a better job (01:37:13) I think I'm like I have an inner teen (01:37:15) because I do the best that I can as a (01:37:18) dad and then I misstep and I [ __ ] and (01:37:21) like oh I didn't handle that great and (01:37:23) then I go on Instagram and I scroll (01:37:24) through and I you know and I see like (01:37:26) there's a lot of super dads in my feed (01:37:28) who are you know who who post reels of (01:37:32) them being amazing dads doing amazing (01:37:34) things and then I feel like [ __ ] I feel (01:37:36) like terrible (01:37:38) and I'm like I'm doing the thing that (01:37:40) I'm like in my you know I'm like trying (01:37:42) to get my team to stop doing you know (01:37:44) I'm no better than any any none of us (01:37:47) are okay but so then again like (01:37:49) comparing myself what a great way then (01:37:52) to have a conversation with a teenager (01:37:53) about it right that we're not above the (01:37:56) exact same thing that we're wishing they (01:37:57) would do less of right and that's how (01:38:00) you actually have an effective (01:38:00) conversation with them (01:38:02) um (01:38:03) I I (01:38:04) talk about this in the book like having (01:38:06) a conversation with a group of teenagers (01:38:07) where I was like oh man you know my (01:38:09) relationship with social media like it's (01:38:11) like a slot machine like I'll go on and (01:38:13) sometimes like I get lucky and I find (01:38:15) something that makes me happy and (01:38:16) sometimes I go on and there's something (01:38:18) that makes me miserable or often I go on (01:38:21) and like I'm just scrolling and (01:38:22) scrolling and I don't want to know what (01:38:24) I'm looking for and I'm not finding it (01:38:25) and I'm wasting time (01:38:27) I find those conversations with (01:38:29) teenagers are the most fruitful (01:38:30) conversations with teenagers because we (01:38:32) are bearing the reality that (01:38:35) we all struggle to manage these (01:38:37) Technologies well and then you can (01:38:40) actually have a real conversation yeah (01:38:42) um I liked how (01:38:44) in the book you kind of address trying (01:38:47) to establish (01:38:48) parody between parents in terms of (01:38:52) emotional emotional availability right (01:38:54) like this idea that you know one A kid (01:38:57) will like pivot to one parent like this (01:38:59) is the person that I can open up to but (01:39:01) I can't to the other person (01:39:03) um and then that creates all kinds of (01:39:06) like communication confusion and (01:39:09) uh it's sort of destabilizing and and I (01:39:11) know that like you know that it's (01:39:13) there's something there's going to be (01:39:14) natural aspects to that but as a dad (01:39:17) like trying to make sure that my kid (01:39:20) knows that I'm available for that and (01:39:22) and trying to find ways of you know (01:39:25) getting in so that they feel safe (01:39:28) talking to me just as much as they would (01:39:30) their mom and not always being (01:39:33) successful at that but that was helpful (01:39:36) good I mean you know there's always (01:39:38) division of labor in families that's (01:39:39) okay (01:39:41) um what I was (01:39:43) kind of new to me in the research as I (01:39:46) was working on the book was especially (01:39:48) in what you're describing about the (01:39:50) importance of dads being available to (01:39:52) boys to talk about feelings and you know (01:39:55) we know that boys are socialized to not (01:39:57) talk about emotion as much as girls are (01:39:59) and we know that that comes at a cost to (01:40:01) them and one of the things that came (01:40:03) clear as I was working on the book is (01:40:05) that for a lot of boys especially around (01:40:08) like middle school as they're starting (01:40:09) to consolidate a sense of masculinity (01:40:12) a lot of them decide that talking about (01:40:14) feelings is a girl thing to do and then (01:40:17) say they're in a two-parent heterosexual (01:40:19) home say it's only ever the mom who's (01:40:22) actually talking about feelings (01:40:25) and trying to have conversations with (01:40:26) her son about feelings (01:40:28) it's so well-meaning but it actually can (01:40:30) reinforce exactly what the boy believes (01:40:32) like see look right it's a girl thing (01:40:34) and so as I was thinking through like (01:40:36) how do we help boys develop emotional (01:40:38) fluency really really like the men in (01:40:42) their lives whether it's Dad or teacher (01:40:44) coach you know any variety of men need (01:40:47) to be the ones talking about their own (01:40:50) emotional experiences and then asking (01:40:51) boys about theirs if we are going to (01:40:53) work against this stereotype that (01:40:55) feelings are for girls (01:40:57) that's such a powerful Point yeah I I (01:41:00) stumbled upon it like I really had not (01:41:02) thought about it until I sat down to (01:41:04) work on this book yeah the other the (01:41:06) other kind of amazing thing that jumped (01:41:08) out to me about boys was around your (01:41:12) discussion relating to how girls sort of (01:41:17) mature uh more quickly like two years (01:41:20) Beyond boys at a certain you know stage (01:41:23) of of adolescence but then you have (01:41:26) these people in the same classroom and (01:41:29) boys being competitive and then just (01:41:31) getting trounced by girls because (01:41:33) they're more developed than the boys and (01:41:35) then what that does to boys self-esteem (01:41:37) you know kind of telling them that they (01:41:39) can't measure up to these girls and then (01:41:41) their inability to communicate their (01:41:44) emotions and their feelings particularly (01:41:45) to a male role model and you know what (01:41:49) is that you know how does that bear (01:41:50) fruit later in life yeah no I am that (01:41:55) was a really interesting section of the (01:41:56) book to write because I was looking at (01:41:57) the data and I'm also looking at the (01:41:59) phenomenology of kids I care for and I'm (01:42:01) like look at this like sixth seventh (01:42:02) grade because of the two-year jump on (01:42:05) puberty (01:42:06) girls are crushing boys academically (01:42:08) because they have a neurological (01:42:10) advantage (01:42:11) but on top of that and we don't talk (01:42:13) about this very much they're also taller (01:42:15) stronger faster (01:42:17) for the most part like just on average (01:42:19) and so these poor like like I really I (01:42:22) feel like I could have called the (01:42:23) section like it's really hard to be a (01:42:24) sixth grade boy right I mean because (01:42:25) they're getting (01:42:27) beat at recess (01:42:30) and then they come back into the (01:42:31) building and they're getting beat in the (01:42:32) classroom and you know it levels out it (01:42:35) changes over time but in that juncture (01:42:37) it's really hard to be a sixth grade boy (01:42:39) and of course the girls are developing (01:42:41) and it's also the exact same moment (01:42:43) where we see sexual harassment begin in (01:42:46) schools and so I thought like well this (01:42:48) is really interesting because I could (01:42:49) absolutely understand why a sixth grade (01:42:52) boy who's getting it coming and going (01:42:53) and made to feel small and feeling (01:42:55) competitive and wanting to consolidate a (01:42:57) sense of masculinity (01:42:58) might feel like well one route to that (01:43:00) is I'm gonna take these girls down a few (01:43:02) of pegs you know and comment in bullying (01:43:05) ways that are sexualized (01:43:06) and (01:43:08) the thing that was so interesting about (01:43:09) writing that section I was like how has (01:43:11) nobody said this before like I can't be (01:43:13) the first person and so right and (01:43:15) understanding that behavior doesn't (01:43:16) doesn't mean that that's okay like that (01:43:19) you know and it that's like the seed of (01:43:21) misogyny right then and there like in a (01:43:24) very patent obvious way it's almost like (01:43:26) those those group that those two groups (01:43:28) shouldn't be like in the same classroom (01:43:31) being educated in the same place at the (01:43:33) same time it raises that question to be (01:43:35) short (01:43:36) but if we're not going to go if that's (01:43:38) not the route what we need to do and (01:43:41) this is the suggestion I make in the (01:43:42) book is we've got to make sure that (01:43:43) these six great guys seventh grade guys (01:43:45) especially who might be smaller you know (01:43:48) just not on the front edge of puberty (01:43:50) have ways to feel good about themselves (01:43:52) right that they we cannot just hope that (01:43:55) they handle it well right that we we (01:43:58) need to find ways to put self-esteem in (01:43:59) place and another cardinal rule in (01:44:02) Psychology is self-esteem does not come (01:44:04) from people telling you that you're good (01:44:06) it comes from doing things that you feel (01:44:08) good about and so there are things we (01:44:11) can provide to Middle School boys that (01:44:13) you know where they can have meaning and (01:44:15) they can have Mastery that I would like (01:44:18) to think might keep them from taking in (01:44:21) a wrong turn as they're trying to find (01:44:23) ways to keep their self-esteem intact (01:44:26) yeah and just more broadly that idea of (01:44:28) a parent like telling their kid like (01:44:30) they're okay or they're doing good (01:44:33) again a well-intentioned thing but not (01:44:36) as effective as making sure that their (01:44:38) kid is being put in positions that are (01:44:41) challenging not too challenging where (01:44:43) they have to toil and struggle a little (01:44:45) bit and learn get to the other side of (01:44:47) it that's what builds true self-esteem (01:44:50) not the affirmations of the parents who (01:44:52) want to you know put a medal around (01:44:54) every kid's neck and tell them that (01:44:56) they're the most special thing in the (01:44:57) world yeah yeah no I I agree completely (01:45:00) and I again back to kids [ __ ] (01:45:02) detectors I mean I think in some ways it (01:45:04) can feel like an insult if the kid knows (01:45:06) they did nothing and and people are (01:45:08) celebrating (01:45:09) the the final thing I want to explore (01:45:11) with you before I let you go is uh (01:45:15) is this very interesting uh era that we (01:45:19) find ourselves in (01:45:21) um around uh gender as you call it (01:45:24) expansiveness right like it does seem (01:45:27) you know like I'm an old fuddy duddy uh (01:45:29) that we're in a in a period of time in (01:45:33) which (01:45:35) um gender fluidity is you know something (01:45:38) that that is suddenly if not ubiquitous (01:45:41) is certainly uh a mainstream thing and (01:45:45) more and more young people are (01:45:47) identifying in new and unique ways uh (01:45:51) and you know there's a culture War (01:45:53) raging around all of this and I think (01:45:56) it's disorienting for parents to try to (01:45:59) understand it perhaps more disorienting (01:46:01) for for young people but it's certainly (01:46:04) a fascinating phenomenon that is (01:46:07) unprecedented at least you know in our (01:46:10) lifetimes like I haven't seen this and (01:46:11) so I'm curious about like is this (01:46:14) something that's always been there but (01:46:16) just there hasn't been a culture (01:46:17) permissive enough to allow people to be (01:46:20) comfortable expressing themselves in (01:46:22) this way is this something different is (01:46:25) what's driving this (01:46:28) um (01:46:29) help me make sense of yeah what's going (01:46:31) on I don't know that I have answers I (01:46:34) mean those are big questions that I (01:46:35) think it's also new it's all happened so (01:46:37) fast I think we're trying to make sense (01:46:39) of it (01:46:40) um (01:46:42) I could tell you what I would watch out (01:46:44) for though which is a single explanation (01:46:46) or anyone who wants to make it simple (01:46:48) right I think there's probably a lot of (01:46:50) forces at work that are changing this (01:46:52) landscape (01:46:54) um and it is you are right I mean (01:46:57) there's an incredible (01:46:58) polarization around it (01:47:00) um there's a lot of you know very very (01:47:03) vehement disagreement about how it (01:47:05) should be addressed how individual (01:47:07) families should address it what laws and (01:47:09) policies should be around it (01:47:12) um (01:47:13) as I watch the controversies around it (01:47:16) unfold with people having very strong (01:47:19) opinions like about whether we should (01:47:21) you know how we should respond when a (01:47:23) young person expresses that the gender (01:47:26) they were assigned at Birth doesn't feel (01:47:28) like the one that's right for them (01:47:31) what I always fall back on (01:47:34) is (01:47:35) how we think as clinicians which is (01:47:39) there's nowhere in the care of young (01:47:41) people (01:47:42) when a young person comes up against a (01:47:45) difficulty in the world or not fitting (01:47:46) in the world (01:47:49) in a particular way that they you know (01:47:51) been assigned there's nowhere that we (01:47:54) feel that there's a single solution that (01:47:57) is going to be right for every kid so (01:47:59) whether we're talking diagnostic stuff (01:48:01) like even something as comparatively (01:48:02) simple as ADHD right (01:48:05) and not that gender expansiveness is a (01:48:07) disorder but just thinking in terms of (01:48:09) like when clinicians are called in to (01:48:10) try to help somebody through something (01:48:13) you should go run screaming from the (01:48:15) hills any clinician who's like there is (01:48:16) one way we do this we do this every way (01:48:18) for every single kid (01:48:19) so what I think (01:48:22) as a clinician is you know for every kid (01:48:24) and family going through this (01:48:26) they deserve what we would give (01:48:28) every kid what we should give every kid (01:48:30) for any concern that arises which is a (01:48:33) very careful consideration of the (01:48:34) specific circumstances of that child (01:48:37) that family the forces around them the (01:48:39) resources available to them (01:48:41) psychologically and otherwise (01:48:43) should be married with clinical (01:48:45) experience clinical understanding to try (01:48:47) to figure out (01:48:48) what the path is most likely to be you (01:48:51) know most useful path for that (01:48:53) particular young person and so as I hear (01:48:55) these controversies unfold I feel like (01:48:58) anyone who tells you there's one way (01:49:00) this should go down (01:49:02) I wouldn't (01:49:03) trust that about transgender (01:49:05) expansiveness or anything I'm not a kid (01:49:08) and then that's how I try to think about (01:49:10) it clinically yeah I mean there's (01:49:12) there's you know policy disagreements (01:49:16) about gender affirming care and there's (01:49:18) legislation around you know this sort of (01:49:21) thing and then there's the whole debate (01:49:23) around trans participation in sports and (01:49:25) all of that that's one thing but then (01:49:28) there's just the case of the kid who (01:49:32) raises his or her or their hand one day (01:49:34) and says hey you know I want to be this (01:49:36) and I want to be called this and and the (01:49:40) parent trying to understand that you (01:49:43) know every parent wants their child to (01:49:45) be happy uh you know hopefully that (01:49:48) child will be received with compassion (01:49:50) and empathy and and a real you know true (01:49:53) honest desire to understand and in the (01:49:56) appropriate case you know uh you know (01:49:59) therapeutic protocols can get introduced (01:50:01) someone like yourself but I still think (01:50:04) even with all of that like from and I'm (01:50:07) I'm asking you from the perspective of a (01:50:09) parent like how does the parent you know (01:50:12) really uh you know show up for a kid (01:50:15) like that (01:50:17) um with the kind of competing concerns (01:50:20) of like compassion understanding love (01:50:22) Etc you want the best for your child and (01:50:25) like what is the responsible choice here (01:50:27) particularly in the case of a child (01:50:29) who's pushing for for medical (01:50:31) intervention (01:50:32) Etc you know like then it becomes like (01:50:34) very real very quickly and and because I (01:50:38) think there are a lot of people who are (01:50:39) kind of contending with this right now (01:50:42) um there's a lot of you know confusion (01:50:45) about like how to how to really you know (01:50:47) walk this path yeah (01:50:50) so there's (01:50:52) a simple answer that is (01:50:54) which is we do have data showing (01:50:56) that for parents to take an affirming (01:50:59) stance (01:51:00) will be the thing that most protects (01:51:03) that child's Mental Health (01:51:05) so what you're talking about being (01:51:07) compassionate and attentive (01:51:10) that the data bear out like in terms of (01:51:12) protecting the mental health of that (01:51:14) young person (01:51:15) that is the response that parents can (01:51:17) bring that will make the biggest (01:51:18) difference (01:51:20) then the question of affirming right can (01:51:23) then start to go into very complex (01:51:24) territory about what that means and (01:51:27) especially when we're talking medical (01:51:28) interventions (01:51:30) and what I wish every parent had access (01:51:32) to but they don't (01:51:34) is you know we have university-based (01:51:37) clinics where there are experts who have (01:51:40) seen this may be your first gender (01:51:42) expansive kid they've seen hundreds of (01:51:44) gender expansive kids and the value of a (01:51:47) good clinician is that they have a lot (01:51:49) of information to work with in terms of (01:51:50) making recommendations and they can see (01:51:52) your child against a backdrop of a lot (01:51:55) of kids and a lot of outcomes and (01:51:57) trajectories over time (01:51:59) and offer some wisdom to parents about (01:52:03) how this may likely unfold or what the (01:52:06) options are or what the you know (01:52:08) complexities are so what I would say is (01:52:11) in the immediate (01:52:14) if we go by the data and we go by what (01:52:16) protects kids mental health parents want (01:52:17) to be supportive (01:52:19) in the um (01:52:21) difficult details of what that looks (01:52:23) like I would never want parents to feel (01:52:25) alone or that they have to figure this (01:52:27) out from scratch or they would have to (01:52:28) figure this out (01:52:30) without the wisdom of people who spend a (01:52:33) lot of time thinking about this and have (01:52:34) worked with a lot of families through (01:52:36) similar situations (01:52:39) are there resources or websites for (01:52:42) parents who find themselves in that (01:52:44) situation that are helpful I think or (01:52:47) I've got some resources that I mentioned (01:52:49) in the back of the book around (01:52:52) texts that are done I myself am a big (01:52:55) fan of university-based clinics you know (01:52:57) the nice thing about universities is (01:52:59) that they tend to be very very up to (01:53:00) date on Research they tend to bring a (01:53:03) very decent balance to their (01:53:04) consideration of anything so you know I (01:53:06) would say that you know for a lot of (01:53:07) things you know you want to be where (01:53:09) they are training people and so as a (01:53:12) function of training people they are (01:53:13) staying very much on top of what's going (01:53:14) on (01:53:15) so what I would say is (01:53:18) for a parent in this position if they (01:53:20) can access a university-based resource (01:53:22) center that will usually be the most (01:53:26) reliable and the most current (01:53:28) body of wisdom yeah that's helpful (01:53:31) thanks (01:53:33) um (01:53:34) as we round this out I I guess the final (01:53:37) you know question that I would have for (01:53:39) you (01:53:40) with all of the kids that you that you (01:53:44) treat and you know the many years that (01:53:46) you've been in this and all the school (01:53:47) you go and you speak all the time at (01:53:49) these schools you're interfacing with (01:53:50) parents and young people uh (01:53:53) what do you think are the the (01:53:55) low-hanging fruit of like parental (01:53:58) mistakes like the things you just see (01:54:00) all the time and you're like (01:54:02) haven't we gone through this like come (01:54:03) on like what you know what's the like (01:54:05) the one thing that you wish parents like (01:54:08) if they were to take away one thing from (01:54:10) this conversation like stop doing that (01:54:11) or maybe do a little more of this (01:54:15) I'm so glad you're asking here's what I (01:54:18) would say (01:54:19) when kids come our way to tell us they (01:54:21) are upset which they often do teenagers (01:54:24) especially talkers are good at this (01:54:29) overwhelmingly all they want and all (01:54:32) they need is for us to listen and be (01:54:34) empathic (01:54:35) in response for us to really tune in the (01:54:38) way I I try to do this as a parent is if (01:54:41) one of my daughters is telling me she's (01:54:42) upset about something I'll picture she's (01:54:44) a reporter and I'm her editor and she's (01:54:47) reading me the article of her distress (01:54:49) and that when she gets to the end of the (01:54:50) article I just have to produce the (01:54:52) headline like I have to have listened so (01:54:54) intently that I can distill it and (01:54:56) summarize it and add nothing and give it (01:54:58) back to her (01:54:59) so really all they want is that level of (01:55:02) listening and then truly rich like the (01:55:04) number one thing I say in my home more (01:55:06) than anything is like oh man that stinks (01:55:08) right just just sitting and empathizing (01:55:11) in response (01:55:12) that is overwhelmingly what teenagers (01:55:15) are looking for (01:55:16) and so often and I do this too what they (01:55:19) get instead is advice like they tell us (01:55:22) what's wrong and we're like well you (01:55:23) know and (01:55:25) um (01:55:27) I one of my younger daughter said to me (01:55:29) she said Mom I can tell from the look on (01:55:31) your face when I'm talking to you when (01:55:34) you stop listening you've come up with (01:55:36) the thing you're going to say to me by (01:55:37) way of advice and you're now just (01:55:39) waiting for me to pause right right (01:55:40) you're just like okay let me just wait (01:55:42) until this is over and then I'm gonna (01:55:44) I'm gonna throw the Zinger drop some (01:55:46) wisdom on you so so what I would say is (01:55:49) it's very rarely what they're looking (01:55:51) for or what they want or need and it (01:55:53) usually actually (01:55:54) um ruins a moment that could be going (01:55:56) quite a bit better so curiosity plus (01:55:59) empathy or just empathy is I would say (01:56:02) overwhelmingly the most effective and (01:56:05) also wanted response when teenagers come (01:56:07) our way with their distress beautiful (01:56:11) I love it (01:56:12) um you are a gift I think the work (01:56:14) you're doing is so important and I (01:56:16) really appreciate you coming here today (01:56:18) to (01:56:19) share your wisdom and experience you are (01:56:21) the Teen Whisperer such an honor such an (01:56:24) honor to be here and with you thank you (01:56:27) um Everybody pick up the emotional lives (01:56:29) of teenagers also uh Lisa has a podcast (01:56:33) ask Lisa yep the psychology of parenting (01:56:35) and what's great about that is that it's (01:56:38) subject specific so if you're a parent (01:56:40) and you're like God damn it my kid did (01:56:42) this one thing or like this thing (01:56:43) happened I just don't know how to deal (01:56:45) with it you can scroll through her (01:56:48) catalog and chances are like it's a (01:56:50) question that's come up that she's (01:56:52) talked through and uh I have relied upon (01:56:54) this resource successfully so (01:56:58) um check that out and uh anything else (01:57:00) you want to point people to (01:57:02) um I have a website Dr lisademore.com (01:57:04) and what I've tried to do is design it (01:57:07) so that people can really find the (01:57:08) resources they're looking for I have it (01:57:10) in six sections and for every section (01:57:12) there are articles podcasts TV work I've (01:57:14) done (01:57:16) um I want parents to feel like that (01:57:18) website is actually like a catalog of (01:57:20) utility for them yeah yeah that's great (01:57:23) and uh and you are here and help like (01:57:24) you spoke at a school this earlier today (01:57:27) you came here and now you have to go (01:57:29) back to that same school to like talk (01:57:31) again like this is what you do this is (01:57:33) what I do and it's I am so so fortunate (01:57:36) that this is what I get to do (01:57:38) um well you're always welcome here and (01:57:40) uh thank you again and best of luck and (01:57:42) if I can be of service to you and your (01:57:44) mission please let me know I really (01:57:46) appreciate it thank you cheers peace (01:57:49) [Music]