Parenting Strategies for Raising Resilient Kids — Dr. Becky Kennedy, Good Inside (YouTube Video Transcript)

(00:00:00) Your YouTube transcript will appear here (00:00:00) honestly almost always when I'm asked a (00:00:02) question my answer is almost always (00:00:05) reframing the question how do I say no (00:00:08) without someone getting upset I mean (00:00:09) this with love it's just a bad question (00:00:10) it's a bad question it's an impossible (00:00:12) question how do I say no and tolerate (00:00:13) someone being upset is a great question (00:00:15) love that question so I'll shift to that (00:00:18) usually when we feel stuck in life it's (00:00:19) because we're asking the wrong questions (00:00:21) right not because we don't have the% you (00:00:23) can get also get a great answer to the (00:00:24) wrong question and that can lead you (00:00:26) astray (00:00:29) [Music] (00:00:42) well let's start with what popped into (00:00:44) my head great and we'll just keep (00:00:46) rolling with that thread love it and see (00:00:48) if it goes somewhere interesting if it's (00:00:50) a dead end I'll get us out of the dead (00:00:51) end but I want to talk perhaps about (00:00:53) your Ted (00:00:54) Talk on the power of repair why do you (00:00:58) think this struck a cord with people and (00:01:00) what resonated with people from that (00:01:04) classic example is you yell at your kid (00:01:06) for something right so I'll use this (00:01:09) example which is different than the one (00:01:10) my TED talk because it also leads to (00:01:12) some you know common questions so my (00:01:14) kids stalling in the morning like I got (00:01:17) to get my kid to school because also (00:01:19) when I drop my kid at school I have to (00:01:20) get to work and my kids laid on late the (00:01:22) whole thing were all so rushed and my (00:01:24) kid is saying you know I don't know (00:01:26) whatever they're saying I'm not going to (00:01:27) school today you can't make me go to (00:01:28) school I'm not putting on my shoes you (00:01:30) put on my shoes and you're thinking like (00:01:32) I have an 8-year-old like they have to (00:01:33) put on their shoes right and then we get (00:01:36) to some Crescendo moment where as a (00:01:38) parent and I'll say me myself cuz I have (00:01:40) this too I just I just yell scream at my (00:01:43) kid what is wrong with you you don't do (00:01:46) anything you're 8 years old you're never (00:01:47) going to amount to anything in your life (00:01:48) if you can't put on your shoes or you (00:01:50) know you're so selfish you're going to (00:01:51) make me late you turn me into a monster (00:01:54) why can't you listen the first time we (00:01:57) say this thing MH depending on our kids (00:01:59) temperament they react in different ways (00:02:02) if they're kind of in the more people (00:02:04) pleasing type that immediately stops (00:02:06) them they're like oh no my parents mad (00:02:07) at me you know I'm going to be good (00:02:09) mostly just because I'm I really need to (00:02:12) see that they reflect that I'm a good (00:02:14) kid I like need that if you have another (00:02:16) temperament kid they use this as a way (00:02:18) of like oh you want a fight I'll show (00:02:19) you a fight and they're like I am not (00:02:20) putting on my shoes you know that was me (00:02:22) right that is my third kid love him what (00:02:25) order are you I'm first you're first (00:02:28) okay but I was uh (00:02:30) a pretty defiant little kid right at (00:02:33) points and so then you get through the (00:02:35) moment you get through it and then I (00:02:37) think after drop off there's this like (00:02:39) immense heaviness as a parent and you're (00:02:42) cycling through different things that (00:02:43) again whatever your voice is might be (00:02:46) your own voice or it's probably the (00:02:48) voice you've internalized from your own (00:02:50) upbringing in terms of how people would (00:02:51) have responded to you if you were your (00:02:53) kid in that moment but it's some version (00:02:55) of blame it's either blame in or blame (00:02:58) out it's either I'm an awful parent why (00:02:59) can't I stay stay calm and why can't I (00:03:01) just get through the morning and then (00:03:03) that usually Cycles with I have an awful (00:03:04) kid and my kid's a sociopath and they're (00:03:06) going to go to jail and they're never (00:03:07) going to mount to anything and either (00:03:08) way you're (00:03:09) blaming where repair right would be (00:03:13) saying to your kid at some point hey I (00:03:16) screamed at you (00:03:18) earlier that probably felt scary and (00:03:21) this will be the kind of maybe maybe the (00:03:22) start of something controversial it's (00:03:24) never your fault when I (00:03:26) yell and I'm working on staying calmer (00:03:29) so even when I'm frustrated (00:03:30) I can use a calmer voice like I'm sorry (00:03:32) that would be a repair I'm kind of going (00:03:34) back to a moment that felt bad kind of (00:03:37) like reopening that part of the chapter (00:03:40) I'm taking responsibility for my (00:03:42) behavior I'm giving my kid a story to (00:03:45) understand what (00:03:46) happened and I'm kind of talking about (00:03:49) what I would do differently the next (00:03:50) time all right this is great Grist for (00:03:53) the mill and part of the reason and we (00:03:56) talked about this a little bit before (00:03:57) recording that I was excited to have you (00:03:59) on and have a convers is that the tools (00:04:02) you're talking about really apply (00:04:05) everywhere and they're echoed by a lot (00:04:08) of folks people would not necessarily (00:04:10) associate with parenting like Joo (00:04:12) willink Navy SEAL Commander extreme (00:04:15) ownership and I want to use that there (00:04:18) are many other examples that I could (00:04:20) give where I feel like what we will (00:04:23) discuss in our (00:04:25) conversation can be applied many (00:04:27) different places many different dojos (00:04:29) for (00:04:30) for very similar tools and toolkits okay (00:04:34) with that said I suspect one line where (00:04:37) people maybe got stuck and you know (00:04:39) exactly what I'm going to say is it's (00:04:42) never your fault when I yell at you yes (00:04:44) all right part of me loves that because (00:04:47) just to invoke the great name of jao (00:04:49) again who did his first ever podcast (00:04:51) first ever interview on this podcast 100 (00:04:53) years (00:04:54) ago when you own things you give (00:04:57) yourself a degree of agency yes right (00:05:00) but also overly blaming yourself can be (00:05:03) the flip side of maybe taking on (00:05:05) excessive responsibility for other (00:05:07) people's actions and feelings and so on (00:05:09) meaning sort of codependent or (00:05:11) otherwise so I heard everything you said (00:05:15) but I suppose like some listeners I was (00:05:17) like always never these absolutes are (00:05:19) very strong (00:05:21) words why say that particular line yeah (00:05:24) and when I share a script to me it's (00:05:27) often words that are representative of (00:05:30) kind of principles mhm I never like to (00:05:32) get too stuck on words I actually gave (00:05:33) those words an example in part because I (00:05:35) think it does bring up a lot of (00:05:37) questions but I never want someone to (00:05:38) hear this and think okay I got to write (00:05:39) down that exact word in general take (00:05:41) responsibility for your actions give (00:05:43) your kid a story say what you do (00:05:45) differently the next time and I actually (00:05:46) would hope anyone listening would say I (00:05:47) think I have my own brand of that (00:05:48) amazing that's better for you and your (00:05:50) kid than my brand so with that in mind (00:05:52) it's never your fault when I (00:05:55) yell here's why I think that's powerful (00:05:57) even if you don't say it to discuss and (00:05:59) really think about (00:06:01) the way we react to our kid yes has to (00:06:05) do with the situation in front of us but (00:06:07) we actually react to the set of feelings (00:06:09) in our own body combined with the (00:06:13) circuitry we have to manage those (00:06:16) feelings mhm and I think the biggest (00:06:18) thing to think about is that circuitry (00:06:20) those skills we have to manage emotions (00:06:23) literally predated our kids' existence (00:06:26) that was there so far before them now (00:06:30) when my kid doesn't listen and the (00:06:33) morning is delayed I feel frustrated and (00:06:36) that feeling is definitely co-created (00:06:38) with my kid separating frustration from (00:06:42) my ability to manage the frustration are (00:06:44) two really different things and telling (00:06:47) a kid basically you make me yell you (00:06:49) turn me into a monster is actually (00:06:52) holding your kid responsible for your (00:06:54) set of skills to manage your feelings (00:06:57) and the other reason and then I'll be (00:06:58) quiet for right now that I think it's so (00:07:00) powerful is I think about my son I don't (00:07:03) know it could be my daughter whatever (00:07:04) he's married one day let's say and he (00:07:05) has some partner and I don't he had a (00:07:08) really bad day at work and he comes home (00:07:10) and for some reason I'm at his house (00:07:11) visiting and his partner is like oh man (00:07:14) I I forgot to get toilet paper from the (00:07:16) store and then he sits down for dinner (00:07:19) and maybe his partner like ordered him (00:07:20) the wrong thing I don't know he yells at (00:07:22) her mhm and I hear him saying well if (00:07:26) you just got toilet paper and ordered me (00:07:28) the right thing like I wouldn't be (00:07:30) yelling at you and I picture the cringe (00:07:32) M like oh my God that's like the (00:07:34) creepiest thing like seriously like did (00:07:36) I install that soft and then we hear (00:07:37) ourselves say to our kids all the time (00:07:40) if you just listen the first time I (00:07:41) wouldn't have yelled or like okay well (00:07:44) if you were just calmly playing with (00:07:46) your sister then you wouldn't get this (00:07:48) reaction from me and if that creeps us (00:07:51) out down the line if we wouldn't say I (00:07:53) would be so proud to hear my kids say (00:07:55) that to a partner then I don't know why (00:07:58) we think that's a good idea to say to (00:07:59) our kids when they're young all right so (00:08:02) there are many different branches off of (00:08:04) this that we could (00:08:07) explore let's maybe back up or zoom out (00:08:10) choose your favorite (00:08:13) metaphor and perhaps you could just in (00:08:17) your suppose framework or worldview what (00:08:21) it means to be a good parent could you (00:08:23) define this or just speak to that yeah (00:08:26) and then we can use that as a sort of a (00:08:28) foundation from which we can launch into (00:08:30) a bunch of other stuff I should have a (00:08:32) really solid answer to that question by (00:08:33) now but I fortunately we have a lot of (00:08:35) time maybe part of what I struggle with (00:08:37) is I think we probably think about that (00:08:40) word or that term good parent is like (00:08:41) what I'm doing on the surface is (00:08:43) something observable where I think a (00:08:45) core principle that I think about is (00:08:47) actually separating kind of who you are (00:08:49) in terms of your identity which is not (00:08:51) observable from what you do and your (00:08:53) actions which usually is observable (00:08:55) separating those two I mean but I think (00:08:58) a good parent probably sees (00:09:00) parenting as a journey of self-growth (00:09:02) and Discovery as much as they see it (00:09:04) about anything related to your kids (00:09:06) growth so I think that's number one (00:09:08) number two I think a good (00:09:12) parent really activates curiosity over (00:09:16) judgment in a situation with their kids (00:09:19) and a good parent probably can put into (00:09:23) action the idea that really being the (00:09:26) sturdiest leader for your kid involves (00:09:30) equal (00:09:31) parts very firm boundaries and parental (00:09:34) Authority as it does kind of warm (00:09:37) validating connection you mentioned (00:09:40) curiosity over judgment now when people (00:09:42) hear this word judgment they probably (00:09:45) assume that is a negative judgment but a (00:09:47) judgment could also be something like (00:09:49) good job right so what would curiosity (00:09:53) look like in place of either negative or (00:09:56) positive judgment I think the words good (00:09:59) job of gotten a lot of like press or (00:10:00) parents like you not so say good job say (00:10:02) good job that's not going to do damage (00:10:03) to your kid I think there's a lot we can (00:10:05) unpack there there's deeper principles (00:10:08) right they're like oh what do kids (00:10:09) really need when they have (00:10:10) accomplishments yeah I like how you zoom (00:10:12) out because it's it's not whether you're (00:10:13) using like the Crayons or the oil paints (00:10:16) or the acrylics or or charcoal you have (00:10:18) to learn the fundamentals of like (00:10:20) drawing and to do that you need to learn (00:10:21) how to see things so it's like returning (00:10:23) to those first principles that's right (00:10:25) right that's exactly right so I think (00:10:27) judgment it can be positive but I would (00:10:29) say in parenting actually in any (00:10:31) relationship it's just so easy to see (00:10:34) someone's behavior that feels bad or (00:10:36) feels less than ideal and we just (00:10:39) activate our judgment about the behavior (00:10:42) and usually when you judge Behavior what (00:10:44) you're unconsciously doing is you're (00:10:46) seeing Behavior as a sign of who someone (00:10:48) is that's why you're judging it this (00:10:50) person is such a selfish person right my (00:10:52) friend didn't call me back oh they're so (00:10:54) selfish right or my kid keeps hitting on (00:10:57) the playground even though I say no (00:10:59) hitting and then we don't even realize (00:11:01) going to like what's wrong with my kid (00:11:02) why do I have such a bad kid you know my (00:11:04) kid is never going to figure things out (00:11:05) I'm a bad parent you just see something (00:11:08) on the surface and you kind of feel like (00:11:10) you know everything about it I actually (00:11:12) think I've never thought about that (00:11:13) that's really what it means to judge (00:11:14) something I see something that's (00:11:16) probably part of a larger story and (00:11:19) instead I think it's the whole thing mhm (00:11:21) to me the opposite of judgment in any (00:11:23) relationship is curiosity and I think (00:11:26) curiosity is when you see something and (00:11:28) you just wonder about it to me that's (00:11:30) like one of the best words for parents (00:11:32) wonder I wonder why my kid is hitting as (00:11:35) soon as you use the word wonder you're (00:11:37) unable to judge because you're thinking (00:11:40) and kind of conjuring up this bigger (00:11:42) picture now where parents usually go and (00:11:45) they hear me say that it's like oh so (00:11:46) it's just okay my kid's hitting and (00:11:49) there's this again judgment we even do (00:11:51) there where you must deal with so many (00:11:53) people so many strong opinions well part (00:11:55) of is I get it I have so much empathy (00:11:57) for parents and even understand their (00:11:58) skepticism of our approach because we (00:12:01) have had shoved down our throat this (00:12:03) very very Behavior first punishment (00:12:05) first we call it discipline it's (00:12:07) actually a joke to me in any other area (00:12:09) of life if we allowed CEOs and coaches (00:12:13) to talk to the people in their (00:12:14) organizations like we think parents do (00:12:16) to kids and then we call it disciplined (00:12:18) it would never fly and those people (00:12:19) would be fired but we've had that shoved (00:12:21) down our throats and so anything new (00:12:24) always feels uncomfortable and these are (00:12:26) very new ideas right but I think about (00:12:29) with other areas even with kids if your (00:12:30) kid isn't learning how to swim right you (00:12:34) teach them how to swim and nobody says (00:12:36) oh you just think it's okay that they're (00:12:37) not swimming it's like a weird be like (00:12:39) what I'm just teaching them how to swim (00:12:40) could I pause for one second yeah all (00:12:42) right I have a bunch of thoughts on this (00:12:43) good job thing I know that let's do it I (00:12:46) like your potential replacements for (00:12:49) that could you just just to give some (00:12:51) people a concrete example like what (00:12:52) might you say instead of good job a kid (00:12:55) comes to us and let's say I don't know a (00:12:57) young kid brings us a a painting M and (00:13:00) we could say oh good job it's amazing (00:13:02) right or let's say an older kid brings (00:13:03) us some paper they wrote and they got a (00:13:05) good grade we say good job okay again (00:13:07) good job does not damage kids but I (00:13:10) think in those moments we want as (00:13:12) parents to kind of double down on (00:13:13) building our kids confidence that's (00:13:15) usually the kind of goal we're (00:13:18) optimizing for so then to me the (00:13:19) question is is that like the best of all (00:13:21) options or at least we have other tools (00:13:22) in our (00:13:23) toolbox and the thing that really builds (00:13:26) kids confidence is learning to gaze in (00:13:31) before you gaze out we're in a world (00:13:33) that is priming us to gaze out before we (00:13:35) gaze in kind of like look what I've done (00:13:37) and can someone in the world tell me it (00:13:39) SL I am good enough that's basically the (00:13:41) world we live in and it makes you very (00:13:42) empty and very fragile very very anxious (00:13:45) I'm talking about social media social (00:13:47) media yeah everything I mean so many (00:13:49) things right definitely social media (00:13:51) right and if I think about this moment (00:13:53) and again I'm often very long-term (00:13:55) thinking but my kids over and over show (00:13:57) me things what's going to help them down (00:13:59) the road well I know when you're in your (00:14:01) 20s and 30s what's really helpful down (00:14:03) the road is when you produce something (00:14:05) maybe it's art maybe it's a project (00:14:07) being able to give yourself some (00:14:09) estimation of that before others do is (00:14:11) very helpful to your whole self-concept (00:14:14) and protective of anxiety and depression (00:14:16) I think I did a good job in this project (00:14:18) it's true I didn't hear back from my (00:14:19) boss yet but I'm a little anxious about (00:14:21) what my boss is going to say but the (00:14:22) fact that someone didn't tell me (00:14:24) something isn't going to spiral meh and (00:14:26) I think about the yearning and the (00:14:28) searching and the desperation for a good (00:14:31) job well if every time my kid produces (00:14:33) something again what they wire next to (00:14:36) that is someone telling them good job (00:14:39) then they go into the world unable to (00:14:42) give themselves that type of validation (00:14:43) and searching for someone to say they're (00:14:45) good enough so what do I like (00:14:47) better anything that helps your kid (00:14:49) share more about themsel actually ends (00:14:52) up feeling better to your kid also so I (00:14:54) think about you know a little while ago (00:14:56) my daughter paints stuff and she did she (00:14:57) gave me this painting and was I'm a (00:15:00) horrible artist so anything she does is (00:15:01) amazing but what I said to her first I (00:15:04) said oh like tell me about the painting (00:15:06) like what made you pick red there she (00:15:08) told me this whole story this whole (00:15:10) story about how she hasn't ever really (00:15:14) seen a red police car and whatever it (00:15:17) was it just and she shared her story (00:15:19) with me same thing I'm thinking about a (00:15:21) kid giving us a paper oh had do you (00:15:23) think it come up with that topic oh what (00:15:25) made you start it that way oh what was (00:15:28) it like writing that whatever the (00:15:29) question are and I know it sounds sounds (00:15:31) like annoying at first I get it like as (00:15:33) a parent you're like oh really can I (00:15:34) just say good job and of course you can (00:15:37) but then again I go to an adult example (00:15:39) like let's say Tim you rid your house (00:15:41) okay and I visited and you really worked (00:15:43) hard on it and I came I go oh I love (00:15:45) your house good job it's actually kind (00:15:48) of a conversation Ender I feel like (00:15:50) you'd say to me thank you yeah but if (00:15:53) instead I said how did you pick that (00:15:56) color wall with that couch you would oh (00:15:59) oh okay well let me tell you and let me (00:16:00) show you my Pinterest board or whatever (00:16:02) it was and even if I never said good job (00:16:05) I bet you would feel more lit up inside (00:16:08) and almost better than if I had just (00:16:11) kind of ended the conversation that way (00:16:12) yeah for sure I have a number of friends (00:16:14) I mean I have a lot of friends with kids (00:16:16) but one who comes to mind I'm not going (00:16:18) to name him but he's very good at this (00:16:22) and one of the best Learners of (00:16:25) any skill I've ever met he's just an (00:16:28) incredible human the other thing that he (00:16:30) did and this was even prior to books (00:16:33) like grit I think that's Angela (00:16:34) Duckworth but instead of saying good job (00:16:37) another thing he would do is say (00:16:40) something I'm making this up as an (00:16:41) example but he would be like I'm so (00:16:43) proud of you you work so hard on that (00:16:45) right to sort of reinforce the effort (00:16:49) the process over the outcome that's (00:16:51) right which seems to make sense right (00:16:53) and you're not suggesting your path is (00:16:55) the one (00:16:56) only toolkit of Purity and redemption in (00:17:00) the sense that it can combine with other (00:17:02) things but first principles are (00:17:04) adaptable right as long as you (00:17:06) understand what those principles are (00:17:08) yeah I think that every parent like some (00:17:11) percentage of the time be like great job (00:17:13) that's cool that's awesome okay but (00:17:15) those questions process over product (00:17:18) like asking for a kid story asking them (00:17:20) to tell you once you get started it's (00:17:23) easier and yes it actually focuses on (00:17:25) what's more in a kid's (00:17:27) control right and then setting up your (00:17:29) kids to feel good about themselves even (00:17:32) if they're not always getting 100 is (00:17:34) just such a massive privilege and it (00:17:36) actually makes them work harder because (00:17:38) they're focused on their effort and (00:17:39) process instead of just on a result what (00:17:41) is your opinion of parents focusing or (00:17:44) viewing their job is making their kids (00:17:48) happy optimizing for happiness right (00:17:50) because who's going to poooo happiness (00:17:52) right I mean it sounds sounds (00:17:55) will all right let's wait into the deep (00:17:57) Waters it's something people say is a (00:17:59) throwaway comment like my husband always (00:18:01) jokes like you're at like a dinner party (00:18:02) soone like you just want your kids to be (00:18:04) happy right and he'll look at me and (00:18:05) think Becky please don't ruin this (00:18:06) perfect nice moment don't take it don't (00:18:08) take the bait and I always do um no I (00:18:12) very much would say a parents job is not (00:18:14) to make a get happy and again because we (00:18:16) struggle to hold multiplicity people (00:18:19) will say you want your kids to be (00:18:20) unhappy no I definitely don't try to (00:18:22) make my kids unhappy can I just stop to (00:18:25) say you're not not going to like this (00:18:26) movie like why are people so stupid and (00:18:28) just like want to fight it's like (00:18:30) obviously you don't mean that we think (00:18:32) in these extremes we see that in all (00:18:33) areas and holding two things as true or (00:18:36) holding Nuance is increasingly hard in (00:18:38) this world which is why it's even more (00:18:40) important right to kind of have some of (00:18:42) these ideas in our homes you use the (00:18:44) word optimizing and I think about that a (00:18:46) lot so zooming out again about kind of (00:18:48) good Insight in general is I would say (00:18:50) our parenting approach is just very (00:18:51) long-term greedy because I just think my (00:18:54) kids are going to be out of my house for (00:18:57) way longer than they're in my house mhm (00:18:59) they're going to choose whether they (00:19:00) want to be in a relationship with me way (00:19:02) longer than they're locked into a (00:19:04) relationship with me and however High (00:19:06) the stakes feel when they're 8 and 10 (00:19:09) and 17 we know the stakes in life just (00:19:12) get higher right and so when we think (00:19:15) about making our kids happy what we're (00:19:18) actually saying is I am prioritizing my (00:19:21) kids short-term ease I am making my kids (00:19:25) life easy and comfortable in the short (00:19:28) term and what ends up happening not when (00:19:30) you do that a couple times but as a (00:19:32) pattern is you actually narrow the range (00:19:35) of emotions kids believe they can cope (00:19:38) with 100% for sure true in Partnerships (00:19:42) too true inere a lot of relationships (00:19:44) you end up having adults who are (00:19:46) remarkably anxious so prioritizing (00:19:48) happiness for kids leads to adulthood (00:19:51) full of a ton of anxiety because you're (00:19:53) protecting them from a broader band of (00:19:56) emotional exposure and so they don't (00:19:58) develop the confidence and they can (00:20:00) handle those broader ranges yeah I (00:20:03) always think and I think I have to (00:20:05) sometimes use hyperbolic language with (00:20:06) myself to like really get me to do (00:20:08) something that's hard but I think good (00:20:09) for my kids like I see my kid you know (00:20:12) who's left out of a social event or who (00:20:15) oh got the school project in a group (00:20:17) where all of his friends are together (00:20:19) and my kid is the only one not with his (00:20:21) friends or my kid is struggling to do a (00:20:23) puzzle and one of the things I say to (00:20:25) myself is Becky do not deprive my child (00:20:28) of finding their capability do not steal (00:20:30) it do not steal their capability a kid (00:20:33) doesn't feel capable when they do (00:20:34) something easy a kid doesn't even feel (00:20:37) capable when they're doing something (00:20:39) hard kids develop capability after (00:20:41) watching themselves survive something (00:20:43) that was really difficult and just get (00:20:44) through it and so if I say to my kid (00:20:47) I'll call the school and I'll switch the (00:20:48) school group for you oh I'll do that (00:20:49) puzzle for you because I just don't want (00:20:50) to deal with you having a meltdown not (00:20:52) once but over and over I'm actually (00:20:54) stealing their capability and capability (00:20:56) really is the antidote to anxiety and (00:21:00) going forward when I think about my kids (00:21:01) going into the world what's more (00:21:03) important than feeling like I can be (00:21:06) capable in a wide range not very narrow (00:21:10) bubbled cushion range of situations what (00:21:13) does it mean to be a sturdy (00:21:18) leader yeah I love the word sturdy like (00:21:22) there's certain words I love because (00:21:24) even though I'm a psychologist I have a (00:21:26) lot of words to say I actually think (00:21:27) very visually and to me the words that (00:21:29) make sense like evoke an emotion that I (00:21:32) can access and to the word sturdy just (00:21:34) does that for me and again I think (00:21:36) sturdy leadership is what we want in a (00:21:38) CEO it's what we want in a partner it's (00:21:40) what we want in a coach it's definitely (00:21:41) what we want in a pilot so does that (00:21:43) mean (00:21:44) reliable dependable I think there's a (00:21:46) couple ways I think it's a leader who is (00:21:49) equally boundaried as they are connected (00:21:52) to you they're actually equally as (00:21:54) connected to themselves what do I want (00:21:57) what are my values what are my (00:21:58) limitations (00:21:59) as they are able to connect to you oh (00:22:01) you might be different but I'm able to (00:22:03) hear and understand your values and (00:22:05) wants and feelings and to me the way (00:22:08) that can get kind of (00:22:10) operationalized as a kind of really set (00:22:13) of skills is you know how to set (00:22:16) boundaries and I think most people get (00:22:17) boundaries completely wrong so I know (00:22:18) how to set and hold boundaries and at (00:22:20) the same time I'm able to connect to and (00:22:23) validate other people's emotional (00:22:25) experiences those are the two pillars of (00:22:26) sturdy leadership could you paint a (00:22:29) scenario for us you have great scripts (00:22:32) and people come to you for (00:22:34) scripts doesn't have to be a Verbatim (00:22:36) script but could you just walk us (00:22:38) through a hypothetical situation that (00:22:42) exemplifies someone being sturdy and (00:22:45) this way yes I think sometimes the best (00:22:47) way to do it is actually in this pilot (00:22:48) metaphor can I do that first let's get (00:22:50) into the pilots okay are you actually a (00:22:52) pilot wouldn't surprise me I'm not a (00:22:54) pilot I've landed a plan but I'm not a (00:22:56) pilot Sully right there got s okay (00:23:00) you're many (00:23:01) things I'm definitely not the sturdy (00:23:04) pilot you want so I definitely not a (00:23:06) pilot you're a passenger on a flight and (00:23:08) there's let's say a lot of turbulence (00:23:10) and you're very scared and maybe even (00:23:11) you look around and like everyone's (00:23:13) pretty scared I think there's three (00:23:15) versions of a pilot that you might hear (00:23:17) come over the loudspeaker and I actually (00:23:19) think they perfectly exemplify three (00:23:21) different versions of parenting so (00:23:23) here's Pilot One everyone stop screaming (00:23:25) you're making a big deal out of nothing (00:23:27) and I can't focus and you ruin (00:23:29) everything and you're just going to all (00:23:32) have your frequent flyer miles taken (00:23:34) away if you keep screaming something (00:23:35) like that not super reassuring not (00:23:37) reassuring and the invalidation there as (00:23:41) a passenger for me almost makes me (00:23:43) worried does the pilot not know it's (00:23:45) turbulent and oh my goodness me (00:23:49) screaming and being (00:23:50) scared is enough to make the pilot kind (00:23:53) of freak out at me like that actually (00:23:55) doesn't feel good it feels like I was (00:23:57) contagious to the pilot mhm and they (00:23:59) couldn't handle the situation okay (00:24:01) that's pilot one that's like when we say (00:24:03) to our kids you know if you don't listen (00:24:06) to me the next time you're losing (00:24:07) dessert you're so rude you know you (00:24:10) can't hit your sister and you ruin every (00:24:12) family vacation whatever we kind of just (00:24:14) scream at our kids and we threaten (00:24:16) things that by the way we never follow (00:24:18) up on and we just stle out punishment (00:24:20) because we don't really know what to do (00:24:21) that's Pilot One Pilot two is almost the (00:24:24) opposite (00:24:25) extreme like everyone's scared and it is (00:24:28) you're right it is really turbulent and (00:24:30) I don't know I'm just going to open up (00:24:31) the cockpit door and if any of you know (00:24:33) how to Pilot the plane just come on in (00:24:35) and take over and at this point you're (00:24:37) no longer scared of turbulence and (00:24:38) you're just terrified that this person (00:24:40) is your pilot right because there's this (00:24:43) merger my overwhelm became your (00:24:46) overwhelm and you just melted in front (00:24:48) of me that is so scary the pilot we want (00:24:51) to hear is the sturdy leader and they'd (00:24:53) probably say something like this I hear (00:24:55) you screaming that makes sense it's very (00:24:57) turbulent (00:24:59) and I've done this a million times I (00:25:02) know what I'm doing what scares you does (00:25:06) not scare me and so I'm going to get off (00:25:08) the loudspeaker and go back to piloting (00:25:10) the plane and I'll see you on the ground (00:25:12) in Los Angeles and what's crazy is I (00:25:15) think you think about a passenger in (00:25:16) that situation and I'm going to guess (00:25:18) even if the turbulence was the same they (00:25:21) feel calmer because what a sturdy leader (00:25:23) really does is they say to you I see (00:25:27) what's happening for you I see your (00:25:29) feelings as real and your feelings don't (00:25:33) overwhelm me there's actually there's a (00:25:35) boundary I can see yours as real and (00:25:37) connect to them while I can maintain a (00:25:39) separate connection for myself and (00:25:41) there's kind of this cockpit between us (00:25:44) that's like saying to your kid oh you (00:25:46) know they're having a meltdown because (00:25:47) you say no to ice cream for breakfast (00:25:49) right and you say oh you really wanted (00:25:51) ice cream for breakfast I get it it's so (00:25:54) yummy and that's not an option sweetie (00:25:57) you can have a waffle you can have (00:25:58) cereal let me know when you want to make (00:25:59) a decision and when I model that parent (00:26:02) will say it's not working it's not (00:26:04) working I'm like what do you mean it's (00:26:05) not working well my kid still screams (00:26:08) I'm just thinking about my pilot saying (00:26:10) my announcement didn't work my (00:26:12) passengers are still scared of the (00:26:14) turbulence like can you imagine who (00:26:15) cares like in a way that they're still (00:26:16) scared their reaction is not a barometer (00:26:21) for whether you are doing a good job and (00:26:23) defining it that way can get into real (00:26:27) role confusion can get us into a lot of (00:26:29) trouble what do you mean by role (00:26:31) confusion I think every parent wants to (00:26:33) do a good job but like over and over (00:26:36) when I talk to parents their kids are (00:26:37) taning me all the time and they're rude (00:26:38) whatever it is I'll say to them what is (00:26:40) your job in this (00:26:42) situation and all of them say I have no (00:26:44) idea but again I go to the workplace and (00:26:47) I imagine someone at good inside like as (00:26:49) a company showing up and me as CEO (00:26:52) saying do a good job today and I'm (00:26:54) saying but I don't have a job (00:26:55) description and I'd be like do a good (00:26:57) job they say Becky I cannot do a good (00:26:59) job if I don't know what my job is and I (00:27:01) need to know what that person's job is (00:27:03) so I know what they're doing versus what (00:27:04) I'm doing that's totally fair so I think (00:27:06) as a parent if you don't know what your (00:27:07) job is you can't do a good job and what (00:27:12) role confusion what I mean by that is (00:27:14) number one you don't have Clarity on (00:27:15) your job because I think any parent (00:27:17) listening to this if you think about any (00:27:18) tricky situation my kid's rude my kid's (00:27:20) not sleeping my kid's lying what is my (00:27:23) job in the situation if you don't know (00:27:25) that with Clarity that's at least your (00:27:27) starting point and of as parents we ask (00:27:31) our kid to do our job for us what would (00:27:34) you offer as a sample job description (00:27:39) almost always our jobs are those two (00:27:41) things setting boundaries boundaries are (00:27:44) limits we set they're decisions we make (00:27:46) and sometimes especially when our kids (00:27:48) are younger they're truly they're (00:27:49) physical they're stopping my kid from (00:27:51) running into the street or picking my (00:27:54) kid up and leaving the park because (00:27:56) they're having a meltdown even though my (00:27:57) kid doesn't want to be doing that those (00:27:58) are (00:27:59) boundaries the other side is always (00:28:02) seeing the good kid under the bad (00:28:05) behavior and connecting to my kid in (00:28:07) that way and here's a good example I (00:28:10) hear all the time my kid doesn't listen (00:28:12) to anything my kid doesn't listen to (00:28:13) anything I say for example my kid is (00:28:16) jumping on the couch right near a class (00:28:18) table like get off the couch stop (00:28:20) jumping on the couch and they don't (00:28:22) listen I say stop jumping on the couch (00:28:24) and then I say if you don't get off the (00:28:26) couch by the time I count to three I'm (00:28:27) going to take away your dessert and I (00:28:28) don't really take away the dessert cuz I (00:28:29) don't want to melt down later that night (00:28:31) like this is so common sounds like a (00:28:32) mess right it's a mess so number one I (00:28:36) would say what is your job again I think (00:28:38) they would say I'm doing my job I'm (00:28:40) trying to get my kid off the couch but (00:28:42) you're asking your kid to do your job (00:28:44) for you you're watching your kid not (00:28:46) able to make a good decision this is (00:28:48) your kid who you like and instead of (00:28:50) helping them be safe you're asking them (00:28:52) to do something they're showing you they (00:28:55) can't do so what would you potentially (00:28:57) do great so let's start I I can't even (00:28:59) answer that without saying what's a (00:29:00) boundary because that parent I would say (00:29:01) is not setting boundaries and this is (00:29:03) true separate from kids is it fair to (00:29:05) think about boundaries as rules you (00:29:07) follow consistently or is I guess (00:29:09) there's probably more Nuance to that um (00:29:11) I mean I guess I think it's fair to say (00:29:12) but I would say it's not the most (00:29:14) actionable helpful definition so all (00:29:16) right great to me my definition of (00:29:18) boundaries boundaries are things you (00:29:19) tell people you will do and they require (00:29:23) the other person to do nothing M that's (00:29:25) a really important dual (00:29:29) kind of definition it's something I tell (00:29:31) let's say it's my kid although it could (00:29:32) be your colleague or anyone it's what I (00:29:35) tell my kid I will do that's an (00:29:37) assertion of my power it's what I will (00:29:39) do I'm not letting my day be ruined by (00:29:41) my four-year-old not listening I just (00:29:43) like myself and my kid too much to do (00:29:45) that so boundary is something I tell my (00:29:46) tell my kid I will do and its success (00:29:49) requires my kid to do nothing get off (00:29:51) the couch get off the couch I'm not (00:29:53) telling my kid what I will do and it (00:29:56) requires them to do something to be (00:29:59) successful it's a complete giving away (00:30:01) of your power right versus and this (00:30:03) surprises people because too often I (00:30:05) think good inside we get lumped in with (00:30:07) like soft permissive parenting this is (00:30:08) 0% permissive setting a boundary and (00:30:11) validating my kids's feelings being (00:30:13) sturdy would sound like this once I tell (00:30:16) my kid hey get off the couch they don't (00:30:18) and say look I'm going to walk over to (00:30:19) you and if by the time I get there (00:30:22) you're not off the couch I will put my (00:30:24) arms around you I'll pick you up I'll (00:30:26) put you on the floor because my number (00:30:29) one job is to keep you safe and it's (00:30:30) just not safe to you know jump near that (00:30:32) glass table okay now in my own house (00:30:35) when my kids were younger I'd go over to (00:30:36) my kid and people have this illusion so (00:30:38) you do this and then your kid just gets (00:30:40) off the couch no no they don't you do (00:30:44) this you get over there if you have a (00:30:45) normal child they're going to look at (00:30:47) you in the eye and keep jumping up and (00:30:49) down not because they don't respect you (00:30:50) just because they haven't learned how to (00:30:51) control their impulses yet so then I (00:30:54) would do my job I would put my arm okay (00:30:57) I'm going to pick you up now I'm going (00:30:58) to put them on the ground they will not (00:31:00) look at you and say thank you for your (00:31:02) sturdy leadership you're so amazing I (00:31:04) really needed that thank you for seeing (00:31:05) no they will scream but actually when (00:31:08) you understand this kind of parents job (00:31:12) visual you set a boundary every time you (00:31:15) set a boundary your kid's going to get (00:31:16) upset until they get a little more used (00:31:18) to it but that's because when you set a (00:31:20) boundary you're basically just telling (00:31:21) your kid you can't do something you want (00:31:23) to do humans feel upset when they're (00:31:25) stopped from doing things they want to (00:31:27) do all the the time they get upset and (00:31:30) it actually allows you to do the second (00:31:33) part of your job so I pick my kid up (00:31:35) they scream no put me down I hate you (00:31:36) whatever they say in the state and then (00:31:38) I can say oh you really want to jump on (00:31:39) the couch you really don't want to jump (00:31:41) on the floor it's so boring again when I (00:31:43) say that doesn't mean for one instant (00:31:47) that I let my kid back on the couch what (00:31:50) they will try to do and my hands will be (00:31:51) ready to block them nope I'm not going (00:31:53) to let you do that this is where I think (00:31:56) it really is this revolutionary idea (00:31:58) in any relationship I can be equally (00:32:01) strong and equally connected to someone (00:32:04) else and that's true sturdiness and (00:32:06) really doing our job I want to ask you (00:32:09) about perhaps another facet of doing (00:32:11) your job but you can't trust everything (00:32:13) you read on the internet (00:32:15) so I will ask this question in the (00:32:17) following way this is from a (00:32:21) participant in one of your workshops and (00:32:24) they described your approach as one of (00:32:26) quote coaching a nervous system to cope (00:32:28) with being a human in the world end (00:32:30) quote is that a fair description of what (00:32:33) we do yeah or would you say not quite (00:32:38) close but a Miss what I love about (00:32:42) that is it captures something that's so (00:32:45) much more (00:32:46) true than why most people initially come (00:32:49) to us they come to us because their kids (00:32:52) are having Tantrums their kids aren't (00:32:53) sleeping their kids are being rude their (00:32:55) kids are being defiant and what they end (00:32:58) up getting is they themselves get (00:33:01) rewiring to be sturdier in the world (00:33:04) while they learn how to give that to (00:33:06) their kids from the start so I think (00:33:08) that that's (00:33:10) close referring back to what I mentioned (00:33:12) earlier in this conversation it's really (00:33:16) sympatico with so many other things that (00:33:19) I've been exposed to it seems like with (00:33:24) good inside the child is yes you're (00:33:26) interacting with the child yes one of (00:33:28) the objectives to become a better parent (00:33:30) and be more connected and be a sturdy (00:33:32) leader and your child is also a mirror (00:33:36) and a medium through which you get to (00:33:38) work on yourself because if you're (00:33:39) disregulated guess what how can you (00:33:42) expect your kid yeah to be (00:33:44) regulated and I mean some people are (00:33:47) going to hate this because I recognize (00:33:49) that human children are not dogs (00:33:52) but for instance there's a great book (00:33:55) there's so many terrible books on dog (00:33:57) training one which has a terrible title (00:33:59) unfortunately called Don't Shoot the dog (00:34:02) is written by Karen prior she took (00:34:06) clicker training from marine mammals and (00:34:09) brought it over to shaping Behavior with (00:34:12) dogs so clicker training is when you (00:34:16) click to reward certain Behavior or (00:34:19) getting (00:34:20) directionally moving towards the right (00:34:23) behavior and then you're able to sort of (00:34:25) time Mark that and offer a reward but (00:34:27) the reason I'm bringing this up is not (00:34:28) that you should use clicker training (00:34:30) with humans I've tried that as a joke it (00:34:31) generally lands really poorly but rather (00:34:34) she reinforces over and over again why (00:34:38) most dog problems are actually owner (00:34:40) problems right (00:34:42) and you need to be consistent if you are (00:34:46) trying to shape Behavior you also need (00:34:48) to be very very consistent with and I (00:34:50) know this might open up some debate (00:34:54) but rewards generally not punishments in (00:34:58) her approach it's almost all positive (00:35:00) reinforcement and when I see for (00:35:03) instance I mean she's not here today but (00:35:05) I have a very well- trained dog and I (00:35:06) have some tolerance for the monotony of (00:35:08) dog training and I find it very soothing (00:35:10) actually but when I see dogs that are (00:35:12) misbehaving because they were never sort (00:35:15) of trained early on and then their (00:35:18) owners are freaking out maybe hitting (00:35:20) them being really abusive I'm like that (00:35:22) is an owner problem that's not a dog (00:35:24) problem and I have to imagine they're (00:35:27) probably similar examples in parenting I (00:35:30) mean there must be my oldest son said (00:35:32) something once that I don't think he (00:35:34) meant to be as profound but it's (00:35:36) something that sticks with me a lot and (00:35:37) it goes kind of problem blame where (00:35:40) we're in a situation in the car and (00:35:42) essentially my husband thought my son (00:35:44) had closed the door and he didn't and (00:35:46) kind of backed out the car and the car (00:35:47) got caught in the garage with the door (00:35:49) anyway and he kind of said saying my son (00:35:52) and my son just said it's not my fault (00:35:55) and my husband said so it's my fault (00:35:58) and my son said I think he was I don't (00:36:00) even know eight at the time he goes you (00:36:02) know sometimes bad things happen and (00:36:04) it's nobody's (00:36:05) fault and I think for (00:36:09) parents this is always true like when (00:36:11) your kid is really struggling is it a (00:36:13) kid's fault is it a parents fault feel (00:36:15) like we're obsessed with fault why is it (00:36:17) anybody's kind of fault I always say to (00:36:20) parents it's not your fault your kids (00:36:22) struggling the way they are faults just (00:36:24) not a useful framework you are the (00:36:26) leader of your home and if all the (00:36:29) Associates in some big company you know (00:36:32) were struggling I don't think you would (00:36:34) start an intervention at the associate (00:36:36) level leadership would say okay it's not (00:36:38) our fault but like we're the leaders so (00:36:40) what are we going to do yeah and it's (00:36:42) not your fault but it's your (00:36:43) responsibility responsibility exactly (00:36:45) and the other thing is I think when we (00:36:46) become parents it's not just like our (00:36:48) kids problems are our fault or our (00:36:50) problems but I see a much more hopeful (00:36:52) framework where through your kids if if (00:36:56) you want to take this on as a journey (00:36:57) you will learn everything you ever (00:37:00) needed to know about yourself your own (00:37:02) childhood by the way you watch your (00:37:03) partner's childhood play out you're like (00:37:05) oh that's how you were raised I see it (00:37:07) now and there's so much learning right (00:37:09) and that's hard learning is hard growth (00:37:11) is hard and it is kind of this amazing (00:37:15) opportunity rather than my kids's (00:37:16) problem being my fault or my problem (00:37:18) could be like there is an opportunity (00:37:19) for everyone here what is the (00:37:22) MGI I love a good (00:37:24) acronym so when I was in my clinical (00:37:27) Psych ol PhD program I'd always hear (00:37:29) these amazing people speak and I'd go (00:37:31) with my you know classmates be like that (00:37:32) was amazing and I say yes it's amazing (00:37:34) but what do we going to do about it and (00:37:37) i'' be like what do you mean just think (00:37:38) about it I really don't love thoughts (00:37:40) without actions I just like to know how (00:37:43) okay well what do I do how do I action (00:37:45) on this great idea and to me this idea (00:37:48) that your kid all of us we are good (00:37:50) inside identity separate from Behavior (00:37:52) it's a very powerful idea but I don't (00:37:55) find it as actionable as I would like so (00:37:57) to me the way to action on that idea is (00:38:00) this idea of MGI and to me this is (00:38:02) something in all of our relationships (00:38:05) even if it's just after the fact at the (00:38:06) end of the day we can ask ourselves and (00:38:08) MGI just stands for most generous (00:38:11) interpretation what is the most generous (00:38:13) interpretation I can come up with of my (00:38:16) kids behavior of my colleagues behavior (00:38:18) of my teammates Behavior because I think (00:38:20) what happens naturally is we default to (00:38:23) the LGI the least generous (00:38:25) interpretation so you see your kid they (00:38:28) lie to your face once no I didn't take (00:38:29) Kit Kats from I didn't eat before dinner (00:38:31) and they have like chocolate all over (00:38:33) and it's just so easy you just go to (00:38:36) like my kid is a sociopath my kid (00:38:38) doesn't respect me you're like who my (00:38:40) kid ate a Kit Kat and like all of a (00:38:42) sudden this is a matter of like (00:38:43) respecting me right or my kid is hitting (00:38:47) they're in a hitting stage and again we (00:38:49) just go to my kid is never going to have (00:38:51) any friends my kid is clingy they're (00:38:53) always going to be the loser at parties (00:38:54) and they're never going to be able to (00:38:55) converse with anyone and then what (00:38:57) happens and why the LGI is so almost (00:38:59) dangerous is it makes us do this fast (00:39:02) forward error we take a situation today (00:39:04) we fast forward to what that means about (00:39:06) our kid I don't know 20 years from now (00:39:09) and then we respond in the moment based (00:39:11) on all of that fear rather than what's (00:39:14) just going on in a moment and MGI really (00:39:16) shakes us out of that right what is the (00:39:19) most generous interpretation of why my (00:39:22) kid would lie to my face whenever I ask (00:39:25) parents that it's amazing their (00:39:27) countenance goes from like so angry at (00:39:29) their 4-year-old like they're like oh (00:39:32) they're probably scared of my reaction (00:39:34) okay and then eventually like what do I (00:39:37) do but the mindset we're in in life (00:39:41) determines the interventions we use and (00:39:43) I can promise you as long as you're in (00:39:45) an LGI mindset with your kid with your (00:39:48) partner with your colleague zero (00:39:52) productive things can happen and then we (00:39:53) say what do I do what do I do the answer (00:39:55) is to stop doing from that mindset and (00:39:58) ask yourself a different question to get (00:40:01) in a more productive mindset and then (00:40:02) intervene from there so we're meeting (00:40:05) for the first time we have a lot of (00:40:07) mutual friends it turns out (00:40:09) but I have (00:40:12) this suspicion that we have a fair (00:40:15) amount of shared DNA just in terms of (00:40:17) how we operate as you were (00:40:20) mentioning the thoughts as being (00:40:23) interesting but not that interesting if (00:40:25) there's no action to apply these (00:40:27) thoughts (00:40:28) I thought that might be a useful place (00:40:31) for a segue so I read that you're a (00:40:33) planner and that your husband gave you (00:40:35) some advice around planning is this (00:40:38) enough of a cue to prompt I don't no (00:40:41) it's not you don't I don't know I need (00:40:43) more all right all right so this is from (00:40:45) Romper romper.com Y and so this is the (00:40:49) journalist speaking okay I tend to (00:40:52) catastrophize to jump to the worst case (00:40:54) scenario and we're struggling with a (00:40:55) difficult phase or unpleasant pattern (00:40:56) but I tell myself to Faith to believe (00:40:59) that we will work ourselves to a better (00:41:00) place and then this is I believe quoting (00:41:03) you I'm guessing you're a planner she (00:41:05) responds I'm a planner too my husband (00:41:07) said to me over the pandemic I never (00:41:09) thought of planners as pessimists but (00:41:11) the opposite of planning is not (00:41:12) catastrophe it's being able to say to (00:41:14) yourself I'll figure it out no matter (00:41:16) what happens the opposite of (00:41:17) catastrophizing isn't predicting the (00:41:19) good it's saying to yourself I'll find (00:41:20) my feet I'll be able to cope with what (00:41:22) comes my way so this is a a roundabout (00:41:26) way of asking what historically or (00:41:29) currently have been your biggest (00:41:31) challenges in parenting yeah that could (00:41:34) be with your kids it could be with your (00:41:38) husband could be other but what comes to (00:41:41) mind it's a great segue and that is true (00:41:43) where my husband said to me when I you (00:41:45) know during the pandemic I kind of (00:41:46) started this whole part of my career and (00:41:50) I kind of burst into these creative (00:41:53) thoughts where I became much less (00:41:54) organized and I had all this creativity (00:41:56) and at the same time the pandemic was (00:41:58) very hard to me and this relates to one (00:42:00) of the things that's hard for me in (00:42:01) parenting and one of the things I talk (00:42:03) about a lot so people probably think I'm (00:42:04) good at it but I talk about it all the (00:42:05) time cuz I'm bad at it that's why (00:42:07) anybody talks about things all the time (00:42:08) where he's like wow I didn't marry like (00:42:10) a very logical Optimist I think I (00:42:12) married like a creative (00:42:14) pessimist he's like look at this (00:42:16) creative pessimist you know I think I'm (00:42:18) short-term pessimistic long-term (00:42:20) optimistic and what I mean by that is I (00:42:24) love a plan I love an action people (00:42:26) outside of me will be like Becky is one (00:42:28) of the most productive people I know and (00:42:31) I think that's probably true on the (00:42:33) surface but the driver of that is I'm (00:42:36) incredibly anxious when I want to do (00:42:39) something and haven't yet done it that (00:42:41) the way I relieve my own anxiety is just (00:42:43) to do it so it looks productive but it's (00:42:46) probably just an anxiety coping skill (00:42:49) and what that means is when I want to do (00:42:51) something or there's a struggle and I (00:42:54) can't get action on it I have a really (00:42:57) hard time what would be an example of (00:42:59) that I mean all during Co in terms of I (00:43:01) think one of the reasons I probably in (00:43:03) some many people say oh you were there (00:43:05) for me in Co and I produce so much (00:43:06) content is I just needed something to do (00:43:08) because the pause of that the slowness (00:43:11) like there's not a lot to do to fix this (00:43:13) you just kind of have to be in it is (00:43:14) really really hard for me another (00:43:16) example of that is I think about my kids (00:43:19) and they're now 710 and 13 you know each (00:43:23) of them they go through these stages and (00:43:25) you know maybe some social shifts or (00:43:28) harder stages and I think I talk so much (00:43:30) about sitting with feelings and not (00:43:33) fixing them mhm because my first (00:43:36) instinct for sure is to just go in and (00:43:40) make it better make them happy and that (00:43:44) is something again the parallel process (00:43:46) of learning to just sit with my own (00:43:48) feelings all of us who can be prone to (00:43:51) action there's like morality to it like (00:43:53) kind of like it's like a better thing (00:43:56) and it can be better in some (00:43:57) circumstances but sometimes the best (00:43:59) thing to do is just sit with it and that (00:44:02) is something I think I have worked on in (00:44:05) myself even you know through working on (00:44:07) it with my kids in addition to your book (00:44:12) good inside a Guide to Becoming the (00:44:13) parent you want to be which has been (00:44:15) recommended to me by multiple close (00:44:17) friends even though I don't have kids in (00:44:20) addition to that what other books or (00:44:24) modalities do you think could be helpful (00:44:27) for someone in (00:44:28) relationship and or with kids and for (00:44:31) instance a few come to mind right (00:44:33) there's a book called conscious loving I (00:44:35) think it's by gay and KD Hendrick I (00:44:38) always mix up the Hendricks because (00:44:39) they're two pairs there's non-violent (00:44:43) communication great book there is I (00:44:46) think I mentioned extreme ownership (00:44:48) which it does actually overlap in (00:44:51) certain (00:44:52) ways you have I believe a (00:44:55) quote from dick Schwarz internal ifs (00:45:01) internal family systems for people (00:45:02) interested I did a live session with him (00:45:05) on this podcast yep got very interesting (00:45:07) very very (00:45:08) quickly fascinating practitioner really (00:45:11) useful system anything else come to mind (00:45:14) any books (00:45:16) resources anything at all that you would (00:45:18) kind of add to that list yes the three (00:45:21) books I guess that are top of mind would (00:45:23) be yes stick schwarz's no bad parts or (00:45:26) just his internal family system book I (00:45:28) mean he knows I've been very influenced (00:45:30) by him and when I've when I work with (00:45:32) adults in therapy and to me some of the (00:45:35) best gifts and privileges kind of we can (00:45:37) give our kids is helping them understand (00:45:39) the parts of themselves and talk to (00:45:41) their parts as kids like when I hear my (00:45:43) kids do that I always think this is (00:45:45) going to help you more when you go to (00:45:46) college than anything you learn high (00:45:48) school it's crazy so ifs Eve (00:45:52) rodsky book fair play I don't know that (00:45:56) is I think so powerful especially for (00:45:59) parents who feel like they're the (00:46:00) default parent meaning they're the (00:46:02) parent who maybe their partner takes the (00:46:05) kid to soccer but realizing they have to (00:46:07) be signed up for soccer thinking about (00:46:10) what soccer where to sign up getting (00:46:12) them the shinguards getting them the new (00:46:13) cleats that actually fit and are the (00:46:15) ones they want that idea of mental load (00:46:19) mental load of parenting is so (00:46:21) intense she really helps put words in a (00:46:24) system to that that I think makes a lot (00:46:26) of parents say like oh my God I'm not (00:46:27) crazy like this is a thing this is a (00:46:29) system why is it called fair play (00:46:31) because it's the idea that if you have a (00:46:33) partnership that you don't have to (00:46:35) distribute tasks 50/50 mhm but that the (00:46:39) mental load has like a disproportionate (00:46:41) impact on your stress and overwhelm and (00:46:44) there needs to be more fair play amongst (00:46:46) teammates MH that way got it and then (00:46:49) this might sound like an odd (00:46:51) recommendation but Cheryl Strays tiny (00:46:53) beautiful things Cheryl is someone I (00:46:55) also wonder like do I share DNA (00:46:57) with her where I'll read things she (00:47:00) writes in there and I think oh my (00:47:01) goodness did I steal her thought I swear (00:47:03) I say this in my book and she has said (00:47:04) to me no I've always I worry I (00:47:06) plagiarized you even though my book came (00:47:07) out before your book it's very (00:47:09) interesting I'm just hearing my own (00:47:10) three suggestions and none of them have (00:47:12) to do with kids that's right but maybe (00:47:15) super fasc maybe that's my you know (00:47:17) revealing something (00:47:18) where to me this the things we need to (00:47:21) learn for our kids when we're parenting (00:47:23) if I think about a strategy or what to (00:47:25) do with my kid it's like something I put (00:47:27) on the Shelf that's important when you (00:47:30) open a closet door you need the things (00:47:32) on the Shelf to take that are actually (00:47:33) useful and feel right and move things (00:47:36) forward but what I hear from parents all (00:47:38) the time is I'm learning I'm learning (00:47:39) I'm memorizing I'm meing but in the (00:47:40) moment I just scream at my kid you know (00:47:43) and then they say what's wrong with me (00:47:45) yeah right to me you need the key to the (00:47:50) door that is the closet that has that (00:47:53) shelf right like if you can't can you (00:47:55) explain that one more time like if all (00:47:57) of your parenting strategies are on a (00:47:58) shelf in a closet and there's a door to (00:48:00) the closet and in the moment you're like (00:48:02) I want to get that strategy you need to (00:48:04) be able to access it you have to be able (00:48:06) to access it and so for any parent (00:48:07) listening who's like that is so me I (00:48:09) know the thing I want to say but then I (00:48:11) just scream my head off at my kid I (00:48:13) would actually say stop learning (00:48:15) parenting strategies you have enough on (00:48:17) that shelf for now what I would focus on (00:48:20) are my (00:48:21) triggers what is happening with my kid (00:48:24) that I am triggered and I'm at a 10 out (00:48:26) of 10 and when you're at a 10 out of 10 (00:48:28) nobody has a key to any lock yeah yeah (00:48:31) strategies is not going to be (00:48:32) forthcoming no the strategies you need (00:48:34) have a lot more to do with you not (00:48:35) because it's your fault and the beauty (00:48:37) is when you work on those strategies (00:48:39) where you're triggered with your kid (00:48:41) guess what if you're triggered when your (00:48:42) kid's whining it's not the whining it's (00:48:45) probably the fact that whining generally (00:48:47) represents helplessness I would guess if (00:48:50) that's a particularly triggering (00:48:51) situation helplessness was very shamed (00:48:54) in your own family was probably a pull (00:48:56) up your bootstraps a family if you're (00:48:58) crying I'll give you something to cry (00:48:59) about family so you had to shut down (00:49:01) your helplessness because it was (00:49:02) dangerous you see it in your kid and you (00:49:04) respond to them in the same way people (00:49:06) responded to you okay that's like a lot (00:49:08) of therapy in 30 seconds but let's say (00:49:10) that's true or people are like wow (00:49:12) that's weird that's very true you can (00:49:14) memorize everything you want to say to (00:49:15) your kid but if you don't an ifs is (00:49:18) hugely helpful here hugely helpful in my (00:49:20) reparenting Approach and Trigger (00:49:21) approach if you don't get to know your (00:49:23) protector Parts MH and you don't do that (00:49:26) type of work (00:49:28) then every time when that happens that (00:49:31) part is going to scream out so the (00:49:33) answer to showing up as a parent you (00:49:34) want to be is this combination of yes I (00:49:36) have to put the things on the Shelf but (00:49:38) I have to know how to open the door also (00:49:40) yeah makes a lot of sense so what advice (00:49:44) would you give me since I'm (00:49:47) currently wife SL partner hunting right (00:49:50) I would like to have a family but would (00:49:53) like to hit some prere I mean it's guess (00:49:56) technically biologically not that hard (00:49:58) to have kids but I would like to have (00:50:01) build a family together Adventure yep (00:50:03) I'd like to have that version of (00:50:05) possible for people out there who are (00:50:09) single but would love to have a (00:50:11) family what advice might you give them (00:50:14) in terms of positive indicators for (00:50:18) people who will be leaning towards some (00:50:21) of the abilities and self-awareness and (00:50:24) skills that make for a (00:50:28) leader parent right so just like I was (00:50:31) like hey here's my dossier of like 10 (00:50:34) Prospects and you're like well let's (00:50:35) like ask a few questions and fig stury (00:50:38) leadership on the on the (00:50:40) list one second I'm assessing you leers (00:50:43) pre stury (00:50:46) leadership they're like oo dirty talk (00:50:48) yeah seriously seriously talk about that (00:50:51) one in our next episode so a couple of (00:50:54) things to me again being a sty leader (00:50:57) has nothing to do with being a parent (00:50:59) and while I think it's actually through (00:51:00) parenting and this is the beauty that (00:51:02) people have such in their face the work (00:51:05) they need to do that they can access (00:51:06) that you're right in pointing out how (00:51:08) amazing if you're doing some of this (00:51:10) work before right so I think number one (00:51:13) again curiosity over judgment to me is (00:51:16) very very key for any sturdy leader at (00:51:18) any age right so when you're dating (00:51:21) people you know when you're friends with (00:51:22) people you know and in general they hear (00:51:25) something that's happening for you and (00:51:27) more Curious and they are judgmental oh (00:51:29) I did this thing I had this awful (00:51:31) interview oh what happened oh tell me (00:51:33) about that or you even hear that they (00:51:35) approach their own life that way right (00:51:37) where people who have really intense (00:51:40) rigid judgments about anyone they tend (00:51:43) to be that way with others because they (00:51:44) tend to be that way with themselves and (00:51:47) then that's going to be activated you (00:51:49) know probably with kids right that's (00:51:52) number one to me I think tolerance for (00:51:56) inconvenience M it's like a really (00:51:58) important part of sturdy leadership (00:52:00) especially with kids how about you sus (00:52:01) that out I mean you can go on like a (00:52:03) traveling trip and see how they handle (00:52:05) baggage being delayed or whatever I mean (00:52:07) you can try to engineer it that way but (00:52:09) any other way I think it probably comes (00:52:11) up in our life all the time I don't know (00:52:13) how much we're always optimizing for (00:52:16) convenience versus like yeah let's take (00:52:17) the subway it'll take us a little longer (00:52:19) but it's easy enough or oh there's a (00:52:21) weight at a restaurant I really want to (00:52:22) go there okay you know can I tolerate (00:52:25) that or oh I really want to go I was (00:52:27) just invited to this party it's going to (00:52:28) be so cool I already committed to my (00:52:30) friends and this kind of not quote cool (00:52:33) but random group dinner and you know (00:52:34) what I'm going to miss that party this (00:52:36) is like my my best friend's you know (00:52:37) birthday party whatever it is cuz I (00:52:39) think that's one of the things with (00:52:41) parenting that people don't talk about (00:52:42) enough it's massively inconvenient (00:52:44) that's really the word I think about all (00:52:45) the time I show up I'm trying to grocery (00:52:47) shop my four is having a tantrum and (00:52:50) it's just that's inconvenient that I've (00:52:52) spent 10 minutes now dealing with that (00:52:54) and I won't be able to finish my my (00:52:57) grocery shopping I also think in a (00:53:00) relationship the ability to be curious (00:53:03) about your experience and not see that (00:53:07) as any reflection on their own (00:53:09) experience which is really the ability (00:53:10) to hold multiplicity like when you say (00:53:13) to a partner oh was really upset you (00:53:14) didn't text me back probably whoever the (00:53:16) partner is their first reaction might be (00:53:18) like oh I I wouldn't have been upset in (00:53:20) that situation or whatever are you (00:53:22) saying I'm a bad person or we get very (00:53:24) defensive because we find someone's (00:53:26) experience us to be counter of our (00:53:28) experience of ourselves and if we're (00:53:31) very secure and sturdy we'd be able to (00:53:33) say to ourselves okay I can know what my (00:53:37) intention was and I'm not threatened by (00:53:39) the fact that Tim was upset that I (00:53:40) didn't you know text him back I can be (00:53:43) curious about it be like oh tell me more (00:53:44) about that oh oh I see that and I don't (00:53:47) see that as a threat to myself that to (00:53:50) me is probably the ultimate kind of (00:53:52) indicator because that happens all the (00:53:54) time for our kids oh yeah I can only (00:53:57) imagine sure it happens all the time I (00:54:00) would love to ask you a few questions (00:54:02) that one of my employees sent she is she (00:54:05) is a toddler in every instance that I've (00:54:08) seen she tries very hard to (00:54:10) be however she defines it good parent (00:54:13) right and I think maybe this (00:54:14) conversation will lead her to think (00:54:16) about the definition differently but she (00:54:17) sent a bunch of very good questions and (00:54:21) we probably won't have time for all of (00:54:23) them she really took my question (00:54:27) and my producers question seriously I (00:54:29) should say so she has eight questions (00:54:31) but I want to hop to number eight okay (00:54:34) this is about (00:54:35) Grandparents does Dr Becky have any good (00:54:38) tips on parenting our parents our quote (00:54:41) unquote Boomer parents often use guilt (00:54:43) and shame as teaching methods which we (00:54:44) don't love or approve of but how do we (00:54:46) effectively introduce more positive ways (00:54:48) they can grandparent our children when (00:54:50) they are together or babysitting for us (00:54:52) this question could also apply to (00:54:53) someone's partner right if someone reads (00:54:57) your book they think it's fantastic they (00:54:59) want to embrace it but their partner (00:55:02) maybe has a heavy-handed reactive way of (00:55:05) handling things or yes fill in the blank (00:55:08) they're skeptical right so maybe you (00:55:10) could speak to the grandparents and (00:55:12) maybe that will also speak to the (00:55:13) partner question although they're (00:55:14) different they're probably they're (00:55:15) related and different the grandparent (00:55:17) one is a great one because I think (00:55:19) there's a lot to unpack there so if she (00:55:21) was here I'd first probably ask her (00:55:22) questions about what it's like for her (00:55:24) to parent in a way that's different from (00:55:28) it seems like what her parents think is (00:55:29) right I actually think that's at the (00:55:31) core what it feels like for her yeah (00:55:33) what it's like for her I mean I think (00:55:35) that what happens when you have kids and (00:55:36) grandparents are involved is we don't (00:55:38) even realize how much unconsciously (00:55:40) we're just looking for them to tell us (00:55:42) we're doing a good job and most parents (00:55:44) parent differently than their parents (00:55:46) did yeah most grandparents find that to (00:55:49) be almost a criticism of how they (00:55:51) parented and so they're interested in (00:55:53) criticizing their kids almost as a way (00:55:55) of making themselves feel better (00:55:57) and then as the parent we don't even (00:55:59) realize we're back to being 5 years old (00:56:01) and being like please tell me I'm doing (00:56:04) a good job and the whole thing becomes (00:56:05) very very toxic yeah to me the most (00:56:08) liberating thing when you're an adult (00:56:10) and it's just an idea obviously it takes (00:56:11) a little to get emotionally there is I (00:56:13) don't need my parents approval I (00:56:16) remember when I realized that I was (00:56:17) that's actually amazing that just (00:56:19) changed my life into so many ways we (00:56:21) won't lose track of the the grandparents (00:56:23) question but was there a cataly in event (00:56:28) conversation Revelation there actually (00:56:31) was you know like where I just remember (00:56:34) going through my dating life M and (00:56:36) dating people that you know my parents (00:56:38) like would have some things to say about (00:56:40) and I didn't I happen not to have any (00:56:42) like majorly toxic relationships but (00:56:44) they had opinions and I just remember (00:56:46) one day thinking the way it came up my (00:56:47) head is my God wait they're not dating (00:56:50) them like they're not dating this person (00:56:53) there was an eye I think there was a (00:56:55) boundary I'm in the [ __ ] pit they can be (00:56:57) chirpy passengers but that's actually (00:57:00) what they are and and by the way I love (00:57:02) my parents they're incredible and I (00:57:05) think realizing that and this is the (00:57:07) thing when you're a parent realizing (00:57:09) that about your own parents only serves (00:57:11) to make your relationship better because (00:57:14) when you're unconsciously looking for (00:57:16) their approval you get frustrated by the (00:57:19) way you're you tend to show up in really (00:57:21) confusing ways to your kids you start to (00:57:22) do weird things with your kids in front (00:57:24) of your parents almost trying to bridge (00:57:26) this gap between how I parent and how my (00:57:28) parents want me and my kids are like who (00:57:29) is my parent they're doing all this (00:57:31) weird stuff that they never do and then (00:57:34) we really lose ourselves so what I would (00:57:36) actually say here which sounds odd and (00:57:38) it's probably not that dissimilar to (00:57:39) what I'd start with with a partner (00:57:42) although I think the dynamic is (00:57:43) different with parents is the first step (00:57:45) is actually trying to figure out what do (00:57:47) I believe in in my (00:57:49) parenting the sturdier you are in your (00:57:53) boundaries the easier it is to deal with (00:57:56) push back (00:57:57) and in fact the opposite is true with (00:57:58) boundaries The More I Seek approval for (00:58:01) my boundaries the weaker my boundaries (00:58:04) become mhm and so that's where I would (00:58:07) actually start so let's say like oh I (00:58:09) wish my parents understood my kids (00:58:11) Tantrums the way I try to understand (00:58:12) them and instead my parents tend to say (00:58:14) why aren't you sending Bobby to his room (00:58:16) you know you have a bad kid or whatever (00:58:18) they say yeah or if they're babysitting (00:58:20) they just do that that's right but even (00:58:21) those conversations are so much easier (00:58:24) to have once you've really grounded (00:58:27) yourself in what you believe because (00:58:31) then the conversation becomes less (00:58:33) emotional and here's then how I would (00:58:35) handle it after that how I'm handling (00:58:37) Bobby's meltdowns I think it's different (00:58:40) than what comes natural to you and we (00:58:41) have a couple options I'm happy to kind (00:58:43) of go through it and why I'm also happy (00:58:45) if you're don't really care about the (00:58:48) why just share how I would like you to (00:58:52) respond that's in line with the way (00:58:53) we're doing things cuz given you spend a (00:58:56) good amount of time with him it's just (00:58:57) confusing for him to hear things so (00:58:59) differently I know you probably don't (00:59:01) approve or at least it's going to feel (00:59:02) weird because it's so new and this stuff (00:59:05) really matters to me right and then I (00:59:07) don't know how egregious it is again is (00:59:08) it just different is it terrifying we (00:59:10) want to differentiate but the (00:59:13) conversation is kind of me and my parent (00:59:15) even are on the same team and that (00:59:18) conversation I have a lot more to say (00:59:20) about being on the same team versus (00:59:21) oppositional teams that's a lot easier (00:59:23) to have if I'm less caught up and (00:59:26) probably what's happening unconsciously (00:59:28) which is trying to get them to kind of (00:59:31) tell me that I'm doing a good job by my (00:59:32) kid mhm let me bring up one other (00:59:36) question of hers and I may bring up more (00:59:38) but partially because it also Bridges to (00:59:42) a question that I had so this is a (00:59:46) question about parenting toddlers could (00:59:48) apply to all sorts of Ages is it okay to (00:59:51) tell my toddler that I'm upset by her (00:59:53) behavior for example if she's whining (00:59:55) and complaining about getting buckled (00:59:57) into the car and I've tried to stay calm (00:59:59) but it goes on for so long that I get (01:00:00) frustrated is it okay to say that I am (01:00:02) frustrated by her behavior and I need a (01:00:04) break or what is the best response to (01:00:06) avoid guilt and shaming language mhm (01:00:09) okay because I was thinking was (01:00:14) reflecting on the example you gave of (01:00:16) the kid jumping on the (01:00:17) couch and I could very easily see myself (01:00:21) like okay I've done the work done the (01:00:23) ifs got the key to the closet and I go (01:00:28) through the routine right I set the (01:00:31) boundary if I walk over there and you're (01:00:33) still on the couch but I'm calm I'm calm (01:00:35) then I put them down they scream their (01:00:36) face off they somehow Juke me and get (01:00:39) back on the couch maybe I do it a second (01:00:41) time but by this point my blood pressure (01:00:44) is a little (01:00:44) higher by like rep number three like (01:00:47) there's a point sure where if it's like (01:00:49) rep number 20 like there's a rep at (01:00:51) which anyone will probably kind of break (01:00:54) so I guess my question is but we can we (01:00:57) can tackle I want to answer her question (01:00:59) because she was generous enough to send (01:01:01) the questions all right like is it okay (01:01:03) to tell my kid that I'm upset or let me (01:01:06) get her language solid but the broader (01:01:09) question frustrated I think she said (01:01:11) right is it okay to say that I'm (01:01:12) frustrated by her behavior and that I (01:01:14) need a break etc etc what is the best (01:01:16) response to avoid guilt and shaming (01:01:17) language my broader question is what do (01:01:20) you do let's say in the jumping on the (01:01:22) couch example when you've done the right (01:01:26) thing two or three times and the kid is (01:01:29) just hell still being a you know (01:01:31) difficult yeah so a couple parts of that (01:01:33) question number one there's this thing (01:01:35) about I hear it I've never said like you (01:01:37) can't tell your kids how you feel (01:01:39) there's all these like random things (01:01:41) people inest like I don't even know who (01:01:42) said that but I think I'm not supposed (01:01:44) to do it to not you know whenever you're (01:01:46) the Ten Commandments but I would say (01:01:47) whenever as a parent you're repeating (01:01:49) advice to yourself where you can't even (01:01:50) name the person who said that it's a (01:01:52) pretty good time to say like I'm not (01:01:54) going to let that take up too much space (01:01:55) in my head you know if I don't even know (01:01:57) the name of the person who I trust (01:01:58) enough to let that live wild in my head (01:02:00) exactly Abraham Lincoln where I think (01:02:03) there's a big difference between saying (01:02:05) to your kid I'm frustrated I'm taking a (01:02:08) breath I'm taking a break I'll be back (01:02:10) and (01:02:11) saying you make me yell at you mhm sure (01:02:15) stop doing that that makes Mommy so sad (01:02:20) the insinuation that we say out loud (01:02:22) that your kid your your three-year-old (01:02:25) is making you feel something is actually (01:02:29) especially toxic for kids who you said (01:02:32) like you were who are kind of rebellious (01:02:34) who already kind of struggle because (01:02:36) they know like I'm a little more (01:02:38) powerful in my family Dynamic than I (01:02:39) should be people are a little scared of (01:02:41) me and now my parent is confirming that (01:02:43) as a three-year-old I have the power to (01:02:46) make her feel a certain way I think we (01:02:48) say it cuz we're so desperate and we're (01:02:50) like nothing's worked will this work but (01:02:53) again we all say all the things and then (01:02:55) we repair and try to do a little better (01:02:56) the next day but I'm not such a fan but (01:02:58) what that has got kind of misconstrued (01:03:00) as is never tell your kids how you feel (01:03:02) they're totally different those are (01:03:04) different things saying to your kid (01:03:05) that's a great thing to say hey I'm (01:03:07) getting heated I need a break and then I (01:03:09) think it's helpful to say to a kid I (01:03:10) love you I'll be back because kids are (01:03:13) so attuned evolutionarily to attachment (01:03:16) and therefore to proximity and kind of (01:03:18) quote abandonment that a kid can feel (01:03:21) like oh did I like make my parent go (01:03:23) away so hey I'm feeling upset or I feel (01:03:25) feeling frustrated I need a moment it's (01:03:27) actually such beautiful self-care I'm (01:03:29) going to go to my room I'm going to take (01:03:31) some breaths and I'll be back you know (01:03:34) connect with you again in a few minutes (01:03:35) or whatever it is and that's especially (01:03:37) powerful what I want to tell parents (01:03:38) listening if you know you're someone (01:03:40) where you get reactive you kind of get (01:03:42) to the point where you boil over such a (01:03:44) powerful thing to say to your kid to (01:03:45) preview to them before hey I'm going to (01:03:47) start doing something different going (01:03:49) forward you know how sometimes you get (01:03:52) upset I get upset and then kind of (01:03:54) there's like this big screaming moment (01:03:56) really invested as a parent in trying to (01:03:58) have that happen less just keep a calmer (01:04:00) home and one of the things I'm going to (01:04:02) do is start to notice when I'm a little (01:04:05) upset instead of waiting for it to get (01:04:08) to a time when I'm very and you could (01:04:10) say to your kid because that's what (01:04:11) happens to feelings right if you don't (01:04:12) take care of them when they're small (01:04:14) they get bigger and out of control so I (01:04:17) might end up saying to you at some point (01:04:19) in the next day ooh now is one of those (01:04:21) moments I need a break I'm going to take (01:04:24) that and I'll be back and what I'd say (01:04:26) to a parent you can practice this with a (01:04:27) kid they love it I would actually okay (01:04:30) let's practice that o get off the couch (01:04:32) oh you're not listening okay ooh okay (01:04:34) Dad needs a break right now I'm going to (01:04:36) go to my room what do you do when I go (01:04:37) to my room right you go to the art room (01:04:40) and you color like you can actually (01:04:41) practice this just the way we practice (01:04:44) sports plays why do you run a play on a (01:04:47) basketball team and practice because you (01:04:49) know you're not going to do it in the (01:04:50) game if you haven't run it over and over (01:04:53) in practice I actually think that's so (01:04:55) powerful to think about our interactions (01:04:57) with our kids in the same way then when (01:04:59) the moment comes and you say o now's one (01:05:01) of those times your kid has had a rep (01:05:04) already and the whole moment will (01:05:06) probably go a lot more smoothly do you (01:05:08) have any other recommendations something (01:05:10) for example I like that and it makes a (01:05:13) lot of sense and I'm (01:05:15) wondering what you do in a circumstance (01:05:17) where you can't take a time out for (01:05:18) yourself right let's just say she's (01:05:20) trying to buckle the kid into the car (01:05:22) tantrum tantrum whine yell yell yell she (01:05:25) tries to do the right thing tries the (01:05:26) right thing and and her kids still yeah (01:05:29) doing the thing yeah doing the crocodile (01:05:31) roll in The Babys seat or whatever I'll (01:05:33) answer that question but I really do (01:05:34) think again it's a (01:05:36) framework shift question because people (01:05:38) say this all the time it's like saying (01:05:40) when I drive my car to the cliff what (01:05:43) can I do so I don't fall off the cliff (01:05:44) like if that was a friend be like why (01:05:45) are you driving to the cliff all the (01:05:48) time how about we recognize that you're (01:05:50) on the road to the cliff when we get to (01:05:52) the point as a parent that we are so (01:05:56) full of anger resentment burnout that (01:06:00) we're about to explode because our kid (01:06:02) won't allow us to buckle them into the (01:06:03) car SE the real question if you want to (01:06:06) make a change is how do I start to (01:06:08) recognize I'm on that road way before I (01:06:09) get to the cliff what can I do why am I (01:06:12) getting there so often how can I get (01:06:14) into a different road to me this is the (01:06:16) whole idea of Rage this is actually (01:06:17) something we talk about a good inside (01:06:19) all the time because when you don't take (01:06:20) care of yourself as a parent when you (01:06:23) lose touch with your friends or dance (01:06:24) class or whatever the thing that you (01:06:26) feel like you before you had a kid you (01:06:27) better bet you're going to be screaming (01:06:29) at your kids all the time because to (01:06:30) some degree you're just saying I miss (01:06:33) all the other parts of me that used to (01:06:34) light me up and so I think that's the (01:06:37) better question now still when you get (01:06:39) there this is where I think it's so (01:06:41) important to establish these that good (01:06:42) inside it sturdy not soft if your kid (01:06:44) won't get into the car seat okay hey (01:06:47) we're going to play a game we've already (01:06:48) practiced we've done the things there is (01:06:50) definitely a time and place sweetie I'm (01:06:53) going to buckle you into the car seat (01:06:54) you're going to scream and cry you're (01:06:56) not gonna like it my number one job is (01:06:58) to keep you safe and so I'm doing that (01:07:00) again my kid's gonna be screaming I (01:07:01) Buckle them and then close the door as (01:07:03) I'm walking to the front and I say to (01:07:05) myself oh my (01:07:07) goodness that was really hard I'm going (01:07:09) to go to bed early tonight I'm going to (01:07:10) call a friend but again that's an (01:07:12) example it's actually a good example cuz (01:07:14) I actually heard this exact example from (01:07:16) parent recently that used to drive me (01:07:18) bananas the reason that situation feels (01:07:21) so exhausting is cuz on some level you (01:07:23) have job confusion you think you're job (01:07:26) is to get your kid happily into their (01:07:28) car seat if you know your job is to keep (01:07:31) your kid safe and to do what you can to (01:07:33) try to make it smooth but then if push (01:07:35) comes to shove you're just going to (01:07:37) prioritize safety and you know that (01:07:39) that's you doing your job you actually (01:07:41) don't feel as exhausted by it oddly (01:07:43) enough it is like a pilot getting (01:07:46) through really intense turbulence where (01:07:48) on the ground the pilot kind of earned (01:07:50) my wings today like you know you don't (01:07:52) earn Your Wings by a smooth flight this (01:07:54) is going to be a hard left but okay do (01:07:56) it I'm curious how or if any of it will (01:08:00) tie in so you mentioned being a postdoc (01:08:03) at one point I believe and my (01:08:06) understanding is you worked with a (01:08:08) number of people who had Eating (01:08:11) Disorders what did you learn from that (01:08:13) experience I learned so much and what (01:08:15) were you studying what were you working (01:08:17) on so yeah I got my PhD from columia mhm (01:08:21) then my postto year I worked with (01:08:24) college students and grad students who (01:08:26) were students at Columbia and I did a (01:08:28) specialty in the eating disorder kind of (01:08:30) group there so I saw a good number of (01:08:31) eating disorder clients and as someone I (01:08:34) had a needing disorder in high school (01:08:36) and so I think through that you know and (01:08:38) I'd been recovery for a while I also (01:08:41) just started to put more pieces together (01:08:43) a couple things I (01:08:44) learned our (01:08:47) body has this remarkable way to act out (01:08:51) conflict if we don't kind of understand (01:08:54) it and resolve it and this is is like a (01:08:56) lot of what anorexia and bulimia are (01:08:58) things that we don't understand things (01:09:00) that live kind of unformulated we're (01:09:01) conflicted about and the body expresses (01:09:05) it in these horrible sematic ways (01:09:08) through an eating disorder through so (01:09:09) many other things too but as an example (01:09:12) and this is not true for everyone but (01:09:15) often (01:09:16) anorexia is this kind of conflict around (01:09:20) your relationship with anger and taking (01:09:22) up space in the world it's like kind of (01:09:24) amazing in anorexia (01:09:26) you both take up so much space because (01:09:28) you get everyone's attention right and (01:09:31) you take up no space you shrink into a (01:09:34) prepubescent version of yourself like (01:09:37) what like that conflict is being kind of (01:09:40) represented in your body right I think (01:09:42) bulimia how much can I want is it okay (01:09:45) to want things for myself can I want (01:09:47) things what is my relationship with (01:09:49) desire I actually think anorexia and (01:09:51) bulimia have a lot to do with your (01:09:53) relationship with wanting and desire (01:09:55) especially as a woman (01:09:56) is there anything that you took from (01:09:58) that (01:10:00) experience questions (01:10:03) lenses Insight (01:10:06) that also transfer it over to some of (01:10:10) the work that you do now or is it sort (01:10:13) of looking I guess leading the witness (01:10:15) of it but is it like looking at the (01:10:18) thing below the thing below the (01:10:20) thing is that what it has in common with (01:10:22) what you do now or are there other (01:10:24) things I think yes this the second part (01:10:26) of that question like what is really (01:10:29) underneath people's behavior that's (01:10:31) always really driven me it's why I (01:10:33) became a (01:10:34) psychologist like why do good people do (01:10:38) things that work against them why do (01:10:41) good kids act out and lie and do these (01:10:45) things why do good parents scream and (01:10:47) get into these kind of quick fix Cycles (01:10:49) even though they don't want to do that I (01:10:52) think I have again it's like the (01:10:53) Curiosity over judgment always been (01:10:55) really curious about that and then I (01:10:57) guess through especially my work with (01:11:00) people who had intense eating (01:11:04) disorders and this was true when I was (01:11:06) in private practice too and worked with (01:11:07) teens who were really (01:11:09) struggling I think I really understood (01:11:11) and saw how desperate they were like a (01:11:15) very sturdy leader who could make good (01:11:18) decisions when they couldn't and how (01:11:20) they'll say all the things on the (01:11:21) surface that make it seem like they can (01:11:24) be in control but really they're deeply (01:11:26) struggling and they're deeply in pain (01:11:29) and I think that probably helped me see (01:11:30) kids struggle in pain underneath their (01:11:33) disruptive behaviors reflecting back on (01:11:35) my own childhood right I have younger (01:11:39) brother and you know Brothers got up to (01:11:42) Brothers stuff like you know so he would (01:11:45) try to get me in trouble or I'd like (01:11:46) kind of like wrestle him and beat him up (01:11:48) and it was it wasn't like malicious (01:11:50) necessarily but there were definitely (01:11:52) times when you know he'd be screaming (01:11:55) like mom Tim is hitting me and then (01:11:57) she'd run into the room and he'd be in (01:11:59) the room by himself I wouldn't say he (01:12:01) was struggling like he was being (01:12:03) mischievous and like maybe there's (01:12:05) something underneath it but it seems (01:12:10) like kids have this burgeoning sense of (01:12:14) agency and sometimes they're (01:12:16) troublemakers or like do things that (01:12:18) they know are wrong and I'm wondering (01:12:21) how you handle some of those situations (01:12:24) because you could try to develop a (01:12:27) narrative around like the feeling or the (01:12:30) pathology underneath it but I guess (01:12:32) maybe at face value perhaps there (01:12:34) instances where kids are just doing (01:12:36) stuff they know is wrong because it's (01:12:37) fun or whatever what do you do in in (01:12:40) those type of instances or how do you (01:12:41) think about let's see more specific like (01:12:43) your brother's saying Tim hit me but you (01:12:45) didn't like he's lying is that the (01:12:46) situation sure I mean that's an example (01:12:48) I mean I it doesn't weigh heavy on my (01:12:50) conscience but it was annoying right and (01:12:52) like when I look at his personality as (01:12:53) an adult it's like yeah he's play and (01:12:56) kind of a prankster and likees to stir (01:12:58) the pot yeah he likes to stir the pot (01:12:59) he's very very smart but I'm like yeah (01:13:02) it makes sense I would say I definitely (01:13:04) don't think my Approach is about (01:13:06) pathologizing things or even always like (01:13:08) seeing the feeling underneath I actually (01:13:11) think what's core is this idea and I'm (01:13:13) going to say it again but I really think (01:13:14) it's so different from how we usually (01:13:15) intervene that it is worth repeating (01:13:18) that you have a good kid underneath (01:13:21) whatever is happening there so okay why (01:13:25) is my good kid stirring the pop right my (01:13:29) third kid is like this I mean the stuff (01:13:31) and the fact that he's my third me and (01:13:33) my husband always say we Delight in him (01:13:34) cuz I think we're less worried but he (01:13:36) will do stuff like hey why do all the (01:13:38) bathrooms smell like pee and we just (01:13:40) knew we should ask him I just knew I (01:13:41) should ask him this when he was like (01:13:43) five and he literally goes oh well I (01:13:47) just thought it would be funny in every (01:13:48) bathroom to First pee into the garbage (01:13:51) can and then dump it into the toilet (01:13:56) that might be why first of all I just (01:13:57) tried to stop myself from laughing I'm (01:13:59) like that is actually so funny like you (01:14:01) also didn't tell anyone for days you (01:14:03) just were entertaining yourself it's (01:14:04) just funny and I go can you not do that (01:14:07) anymore he's like yeah no problem and he (01:14:08) never did it again yeah okay no I think (01:14:10) it's really easy to be like what is my (01:14:14) kid's a psychopath like what are you (01:14:15) doing right but I think for me and maybe (01:14:17) it's because my third what did I do yeah (01:14:20) I think actually the most underutilized (01:14:22) strategy in parenting and this sounds (01:14:23) like a joke but I do want to name it (01:14:25) make it official is doing nothing is (01:14:28) doing nothing because you know what (01:14:30) helped me do nothing I have a good kid (01:14:32) yeah who did something actually really (01:14:36) smart and funny that's just funny and (01:14:37) he's entertaining himself like I see him (01:14:39) as a 20-year-old in college I know (01:14:41) exactly who he's going to be and I kind (01:14:43) of know over time can like reain it in (01:14:46) and it's not like he does that like in (01:14:47) the middle of his kindergarten classroom (01:14:49) you know in the airport but he's maybe (01:14:51) like your brother he thinks funny things (01:14:53) he's industrious he comes up with his (01:14:56) own plans and I think the idea wait I (01:14:58) have this good kid like I don't have to (01:14:59) take this all so seriously maybe I can (01:15:02) trust myself to know when this veers (01:15:04) into the domain of like really bad or (01:15:07) too much and maybe actually what I do is (01:15:09) just say hey can you not do that again (01:15:11) mhm and maybe I know my son is always (01:15:14) going to be a kid looking to kind of (01:15:17) push the envelope and knowing that about (01:15:19) him means I'm less surprised I can set (01:15:21) up boundaries a little differently and I (01:15:23) can actually and this is what I think is (01:15:24) missing a lot and it goes back to (01:15:26) knowing your kid's a good (01:15:27) kid I can Delight in him delighting in (01:15:30) your kid is so important as a parent (01:15:33) your kids feel that and it changes and (01:15:35) it doesn't make Behavior okay all of it (01:15:38) but that element and I think that's (01:15:39) what's missing when we're in really bad (01:15:41) Cycles we just we love our kid but we (01:15:43) actually really stop liking them we (01:15:44) don't even realize that and it's really (01:15:46) painful for everyone I want to ask a (01:15:49) question also from my employee I (01:15:52) mentioned earlier which I was very (01:15:55) curious about myself which is if your (01:15:59) kid is hanging out with other kids who (01:16:04) are bad (01:16:06) influences what does an intervention (01:16:08) look like and I think my parents (01:16:10) actually did a very good job on this (01:16:12) with me but it was simpler in a sense (01:16:14) because no (01:16:15) smartphones we were living in a rural (01:16:17) area so if I wanted to hang out in our (01:16:21) little downtown and get into stupid (01:16:22) trouble with a bunch of troublemakers (01:16:24) it's actually quite difficult right I (01:16:26) couldn't too far away for me to bike and (01:16:29) they held the keys to the car etc etc (01:16:32) but they were good with certain things (01:16:33) that I hated like curfews for coming (01:16:36) back from like hanging out downtown (01:16:37) after a movie or something which was in (01:16:39) retrospect very very smart because a lot (01:16:41) of those people ended up in jail oding (01:16:44) etc etc right they would not have been (01:16:46) good influences what is the move what (01:16:48) does it look like so I think there's a (01:16:50) lot of degrees here and only apparent (01:16:53) listening is saying okay when I say bad (01:16:54) influence yeah like there's stuff that (01:16:56) feels legitimately dangerous my kid's (01:16:58) older there's I don't know there's drugs (01:16:59) I give you a specific example for a (01:17:01) younger kid great okay so I noticed when (01:17:05) I was a kid I'm very sensitive to (01:17:09) animals and there were a few boys who (01:17:12) legitimately liked torturing animals (01:17:15) they liked inflicting damage on animals (01:17:19) and as far as I'm concerned that's (01:17:22) just that is not a good trait but it's (01:17:25) like okay okay so some kids you know (01:17:27) [ __ ] with frogs or squirrels or (01:17:29) whatever trash can no no no like (01:17:32) mutilating animals is a Step Beyond (01:17:34) peing in the trash can I would say so (01:17:36) but that kid is also like maybe fine in (01:17:38) school well (01:17:40) behaved etc etc and so you're like that (01:17:44) kid seems to have zero (01:17:47) empathy that's not even not even (01:17:49) registering on any scale I don't really (01:17:52) want my kid to be around that totally so (01:17:54) let's again go to degrees so torturing (01:17:57) animals that's like kind of a known (01:17:58) concerning trait in a child among (01:18:00) psychologists right it's part of like a (01:18:01) Triad you would say you know you know (01:18:03) good grooming serial killers definitely (01:18:06) concerning yeah so that would probably (01:18:08) be the same almost level to me as a (01:18:09) parent as oh my kid is hanging out with (01:18:11) kids who again I think there's (01:18:12) legitimate sure and that stuff I don't (01:18:14) think the parents even have visibility (01:18:16) into right like unfortunately so there I (01:18:18) think one of the things you say to your (01:18:19) kid and and I've now said this a bunch (01:18:21) of times in this conversation my number (01:18:23) one job is to keep my kid safe (01:18:26) that is such a powerful thing to remind (01:18:28) yourself now safe doesn't mean risk-free (01:18:31) it doesn't mean I keep my kid in a (01:18:32) bubble but keep my kids safe and so I'm (01:18:35) not going to let my kid hang out with (01:18:39) kids who again it's not like they have (01:18:41) Bad Manners it's not like they do (01:18:42) something that's like a little pushing (01:18:43) the edge and funny like my son did like (01:18:45) this is kind of where we would say is (01:18:47) over the line so what would I say to my (01:18:49) kid hey I want to go hang out with (01:18:50) person X and Y listen sweetie this is (01:18:52) part of a bigger conversation this is (01:18:54) where this line helps so much my number (01:18:56) one job is to keep you safe and (01:18:59) sometimes that means not hanging out (01:19:02) with certain kids who are doing really (01:19:03) dangerous things mhm and I know as an (01:19:06) adult that some of what those kids are (01:19:07) doing are dangerous and so I'm not going (01:19:09) to take you downtown to be with them now (01:19:12) again my kids's probably going to be (01:19:14) angry MH I don't have to say to them (01:19:16) because I know my role but don't you (01:19:18) understand I don't we really like lower (01:19:21) ourselves to our kids' level like I'm (01:19:24) asking my 7-year-old to approve of my (01:19:27) decision can you imagine a CEO being (01:19:30) like we're going through layoffs if they (01:19:32) have to and they're going at everyone's (01:19:33) desk like is that okay is that okay (01:19:35) that's okay that's okay or a pilot like (01:19:37) we have to make an emergency landing (01:19:39) everyone vote Yes I need everyone's yes (01:19:41) vote come on don't you understand it's (01:19:43) like you just have to do the thing you (01:19:44) need to do when you're in a position of (01:19:46) authority have to do your job now (01:19:48) exactly do your job there's something (01:19:49) else though that happens a lot so maybe (01:19:51) it's not animal cruelty right I mean (01:19:53) another instance from when I was a kid a (01:19:56) lot of those kids ended up getting into (01:19:57) a lot of trouble later whether it was (01:20:00) going to jail drugs you name it they (01:20:04) stole stuff right and it was a small (01:20:07) town so like people kind of knew like (01:20:09) these kids are bad seeds I mean I know (01:20:11) that's a big label but like not a great (01:20:14) influence to have around your kids again (01:20:18) I think that would fall under my role (01:20:21) around the boundaries that is my job is (01:20:23) to keep my kids safe that doesn't mean (01:20:25) no risk it literally does mean safe that (01:20:27) might lead to hard decisions that my (01:20:28) kid's not happy with but are part of my (01:20:31) kind of being the true Authority and the (01:20:33) adult my kid needs I do think the (01:20:36) emergency landing is the most helpful (01:20:37) thing if my pilot said we're making (01:20:40) emergency landing and someone on the (01:20:42) plane said but wait I have a really (01:20:43) important podcast interview with Tim (01:20:45) Ferris and they were like you know what (01:20:47) fine forget it yeah yeah you don't want (01:20:50) that our kids are going to face tricky (01:20:53) situations and again every parent knows (01:20:56) the line between safety versus kind of (01:20:58) playground you can't play with us you're (01:21:00) a poopy head right right right and then (01:21:03) I think it becomes a little more nuan (01:21:05) there well one thing you said doing your (01:21:07) job doesn't (01:21:09) mean taking or exposing your kids to (01:21:12) zero risk right and it actually made me (01:21:15) think of a friend of mine different (01:21:17) former special forces guy amazing guy (01:21:20) You' never guess in a million years that (01:21:23) H maybe no but he's not like obvious (01:21:25) he's not in your face he's more like a (01:21:28) gray man for people who get the lingo (01:21:30) but he has two daughters and uh he's (01:21:35) very jovial fun guy like he's he's very (01:21:39) easygoing he's as tough as you would (01:21:41) expect but on the surface like his (01:21:43) interactions are very he's actually very (01:21:46) soft but he ended up (01:21:50) basically creating this game with his (01:21:52) girls where each birth they have like a (01:21:56) birthday Challenge and it's something (01:21:58) that's hard for them so for and it goes (01:22:01) up as they get olders they get to choose (01:22:04) like their 10 challenges it's kind of (01:22:06) like having your employees choose okrs (01:22:07) or whatever so they got into rock (01:22:09) climbing and then into like I'm going to (01:22:10) do the cold Plunge in the lake for this (01:22:13) long and then I'm going to do cattle (01:22:14) Bell Swings with this and this many of (01:22:15) this and that the other thing so for (01:22:17) those people who ever seen the movie (01:22:18) Hannah he's basically training both of (01:22:20) his girls to be Hannah which is like (01:22:23) training This Guy's daughter Ben as the (01:22:25) actor to be Jason Bourne but he has sort (01:22:29) of inoculated them against a lot of (01:22:33) types of fear by expanding their (01:22:35) exposure to all these different (01:22:37) stressors and kind of making a game of (01:22:39) it and they do fail at points but they (01:22:42) get to contend with failure and then (01:22:44) recover from it I'm (01:22:47) wondering if you proactively have done (01:22:50) that with your own kids or how you (01:22:53) facilitate exposing kids to this broad (01:22:57) range of emotional experience so that (01:22:58) when they get into the quote unquote (01:23:00) real world they're not fragile yes anti (01:23:04) fragility is definitely big big goal I (01:23:07) guess I think that I don't often have to (01:23:10) insert that as much as I have to be (01:23:12) mindful of not removing it there's a lot (01:23:16) of opportunities for kids to be (01:23:18) frustrated to take on challenges I mean (01:23:21) we're really talking about feeling (01:23:23) uncomfortable right don't do their job (01:23:25) for them not doing their job for them (01:23:27) and not narrowing the range of their (01:23:30) resilience if my kid is only resilient (01:23:32) when they get the job and have an easy (01:23:34) project and go to a dinner where all (01:23:36) their friends are and get driven there (01:23:37) and there's never any traffic like (01:23:39) they're going to be in trouble right (01:23:40) they're going be a lot of trouble but we (01:23:42) can't expect them to expect anything (01:23:44) different if that's kind of been what we (01:23:47) create for them during their formid of (01:23:49) years so here's a good example talk (01:23:51) about my youngest this is the one who PE (01:23:53) in the garbage cans this is my I like (01:23:55) this my resilient rebel I like this kid (01:23:57) already he is yes he is something he (01:24:00) really is he's my kid who wanted to get (01:24:04) money to (01:24:05) get a certain baseball card that my (01:24:08) oldest son and he was going to the store (01:24:10) and he didn't have money and he had two (01:24:12) somewhat loose teeth and he pulled them (01:24:15) both out by the end of the (01:24:17) day because he figured he could get (01:24:19) money from the Tooth Fairy yeah and he (01:24:21) did and I was like Wow smart kid (01:24:23) industrious very industrious yes high (01:24:25) tolerance for pan but I'm think he (01:24:26) wanted to play sports and he's my third (01:24:28) so he's been playing for a while and the (01:24:31) only teams you know he tried out he made (01:24:33) two teams for two different sports where (01:24:35) he knew nobody he knew no kids to me (01:24:38) this is such an amazing life experience (01:24:40) joining a team where you know nobody and (01:24:43) I would say in both teams he's not on (01:24:46) the stronger end that's a really (01:24:48) powerful life experience in terms of (01:24:50) again the capability you will build we (01:24:53) think our kids are going to find the cap (01:24:54) capability before and then we get (01:24:56) frustrated come on you can do it it's (01:24:57) not a big deal everybody in life finds (01:25:00) capability after surviving not even (01:25:02) after thriving just after surviving (01:25:04) something hard the capabil is on the (01:25:06) other side you can't expect someone to (01:25:07) access it before you just have to (01:25:09) tolerate the before MH right now I think (01:25:12) it could be easy to remove that oh I'm (01:25:14) going to I'm going to make sure I call a (01:25:15) friend to join the team with you right (01:25:18) and and some ways we take our own (01:25:19) anxiety and we add it you know what I (01:25:22) mean versus I really felt like my job to (01:25:25) me here's like such a powerful line I (01:25:27) remember before he went to his first (01:25:28) basketball practice and this team (01:25:29) happened to be a team that they already (01:25:31) knew each other for a year so not only (01:25:32) did he know any one they was you know he (01:25:34) was I'm really nervous I said that makes (01:25:37) sense I'd almost feel nervous if you (01:25:39) weren't nervous mhm make sense you're (01:25:42) nervous to do something new yeah and (01:25:44) then after we walked home and he said (01:25:46) you know I think when they introduced (01:25:48) everyone I felt better I said yeah when (01:25:50) he goes like you know that I said you'll (01:25:51) probably be a little less nervous at (01:25:53) next practice but you probably also will (01:25:54) be a little nervous and I think this (01:25:57) idea when we build our kids capability I (01:26:00) your friend who has all those challenges (01:26:02) that sounds amazing and there's all (01:26:03) different ways to do things in different (01:26:04) families I guess for me I see with my (01:26:06) kids there's so many opportunities in (01:26:09) life I should say it's not like the (01:26:10) Lynch pin of his parenting he's actually (01:26:13) just like super active with his kids and (01:26:15) role models it and to me one of the most (01:26:17) important things for building capability (01:26:19) and antifragility is actually this idea (01:26:22) of validation and hope or validation and (01:26:24) cap ability this is hard and I can do it (01:26:28) often when you do only one with a kid it (01:26:31) backfires so we'll be like this is (01:26:33) really hard it makes sense you're (01:26:35) nervous about practice ooh and we just (01:26:37) live in that world and sometimes our kid (01:26:39) feels like are you validating my (01:26:41) emotions but I'm just kind of like (01:26:42) building my anxiety or we leave that out (01:26:44) and we do the opposite it's no big deal (01:26:46) it's just a basketball team you're going (01:26:47) to be fine kids have been doing (01:26:48) basketball forever that's often not (01:26:50) great and we think that's like building (01:26:52) resilience the lack of validation (01:26:54) doesn't help help your kid cope with the (01:26:55) emotion and so it's also not that (01:26:57) helpful both is really powerful H makes (01:27:00) sense that you're nervous and you're a (01:27:01) kid who can do hard things oh it makes (01:27:04) sense you're not sure how this is going (01:27:05) to go and you're feeling a little uneasy (01:27:07) and I just know 5 minutes in it's going (01:27:09) to feel a little easier that idea that I (01:27:11) can see my kid where they are and I can (01:27:13) almost see a more capable version of (01:27:15) them than they can access by the way I (01:27:17) think great CEOs do this too yeah right (01:27:20) this is a hard project and I know you're (01:27:21) the one to figure it out or good (01:27:23) partners or good partners yeah I'll give (01:27:26) a public thanks to my ex she was very (01:27:29) very good at all this type of (01:27:30) communication and perspective taking so (01:27:32) she was able to teach this old dog some (01:27:34) new tricks which have stuck yeah and (01:27:38) that's been incredibly valuable have you (01:27:40) had any personal sort of parenting slips (01:27:43) that you learned a lot from because one (01:27:46) of the questions I often ask so I'm (01:27:48) Force fitting it a little bit here but (01:27:50) it might work is like do you have a (01:27:51) favorite failure meaning like something (01:27:53) that didn't turn not the way you hoped (01:27:55) or it was a Miss whatever but it ended (01:27:57) up teaching you so much that in the long (01:28:00) term it was beneficial I hear my (01:28:03) daughter's voice in this moment saying I (01:28:07) started good inside for you and the (01:28:09) reason she says that is because I had my (01:28:13) first kid and at this point I also my (01:28:15) private practice and my first kid (01:28:17) definitely had his meltdowns he had his (01:28:18) difficult moments but there was (01:28:19) something relatively linear relatively (01:28:22) about his development where kind of did (01:28:24) the thing okay oh you're so upset you're (01:28:26) going to figure it out I'm here with you (01:28:28) no you can't have that truck I'm holding (01:28:30) it I'm keeping you safe and he kind of (01:28:31) responded in kind he would kind of okay (01:28:33) and then I'd have all these people in my (01:28:35) practice saying Dr Becky like I'm doing (01:28:37) the things you're saying but I swear (01:28:39) they're making everything worse it's (01:28:40) making everything worse it's not working (01:28:43) and even though I in general like (01:28:44) curiosity over judgment in the back of (01:28:46) my head I was thinking what anyone would (01:28:47) think like you're just not doing it (01:28:49) right you know you're not doing it right (01:28:50) that's all but moving on and then it (01:28:52) actually kind of in these sessions (01:28:55) would make me have to innovate I'm like (01:28:56) okay well that's not working and I kind (01:28:58) of do love problems and thinking through (01:29:00) things like try this try this you know (01:29:02) and then I had my second kid and I feel (01:29:04) like after a year and a half I remember (01:29:06) being like I need to call all of those (01:29:08) people that I was secretly judging I was (01:29:11) like oh my God I know what you're (01:29:12) talking about because I am watching (01:29:14) myself do the thing I was telling you to (01:29:17) do when I was doing with my son and I'm (01:29:19) watching my kid scream or by the time (01:29:22) she's old enough to talk be like stop (01:29:24) talking I hate you and I was like what (01:29:25) are you talking about I'm being an (01:29:27) amazing parent right now why are you (01:29:29) saying that and I would say for a number (01:29:33) of (01:29:34) months I really mean it was like a dark (01:29:36) it was a dark place like what is going (01:29:38) on and what is my kid and why can't I (01:29:42) give to her the way I know I can show up (01:29:45) for my other (01:29:46) one and then I feel like after that (01:29:49) period this is usually what happens I (01:29:51) feel (01:29:52) overwhelmed and then I have this thing I (01:29:54) say to in myself when I'm feeling really (01:29:56) overwhelmed and like full of self-blame (01:29:57) and pity where I say okay Becky wash (01:30:00) yourself in it like fully embrace it (01:30:01) you're horrible everything's horrible (01:30:03) like go all the way to the extreme and (01:30:05) I'm going go to sleep and I say and (01:30:07) tomorrow I'm going to turn it into fire (01:30:08) because there's a lot of energy and (01:30:10) feeling awful and overwhelmed and if you (01:30:11) can like allow yourself to embrace it (01:30:13) and not fight it then I feel like (01:30:15) there's a day where you can use all of (01:30:16) that for something productive and I feel (01:30:18) like that's what I did and I started to (01:30:21) connect these crazy dots in my head I (01:30:23) was like okay so they're all these (01:30:24) family out there who are telling me the (01:30:25) same thing I'm seeing with my kid these (01:30:28) kids when you try to talk to them about (01:30:30) their feelings even in the best way they (01:30:32) explode their meltdowns are like (01:30:34) animalistic hissing growling I mean (01:30:38) really intense they act like a caged (01:30:40) animal and then I thought about probably (01:30:42) 30% of the adults I was seeing in (01:30:44) private practice for really deep therapy (01:30:47) and the struggles they had in adulthood (01:30:48) a lot of fear of Abandonment a lot of (01:30:50) emotion disregulation a lot of really (01:30:52) low selfworth and it was crazy to I mean (01:30:55) I was like oh my God they were all my (01:30:58) daughter and they were all those kids I (01:31:01) saw this whole thing and it led to this (01:31:03) body of work where with the adults I was (01:31:05) doing this really deep therapy of kind (01:31:07) of going back to some (01:31:09) moments and really reworking them in (01:31:12) this like experiential way and they (01:31:15) would tell me things I'm not joking that (01:31:17) I would then do with my daughter could (01:31:21) you give an example okay here's an (01:31:23) example so your kid has this meltdown (01:31:25) and some parents listen be like yeah my (01:31:26) kid has meltdowns okay I'm not talking (01:31:29) about the run-of-the-mill Meltdown I am (01:31:31) talking about it truly The Exorcist The (01:31:33) Exorcist it's animalistic because these (01:31:36) kids and I call them deeply feeling kids (01:31:38) they experience their feelings as (01:31:40) threats and so if your feeling is a (01:31:43) threat in your own body think about what (01:31:45) you would do to get rid of it you have (01:31:47) to like expel it onto someone and (01:31:49) they're so porous to the world that they (01:31:52) get overwhelmed more easily and they (01:31:53) fear being overwhelmed and then they (01:31:55) fear they're going to overwhelm you and (01:31:57) basically with these kids their shame (01:31:59) sits so close to their vulnerability so (01:32:01) whenever they feel vulnerable shame (01:32:03) makes it explosive and then when you try (01:32:06) to get close like hey I'm here for you (01:32:08) or hey you're mad it's too close they (01:32:10) actually do it sounds so existential but (01:32:13) they fear that they are toxic and then (01:32:16) they will kind of make you toxic and so (01:32:18) they say things like get out I hate you (01:32:21) leave me alone and then as parents we (01:32:23) kind of take the bait fine I'm just (01:32:24) trying to help and then we leave these (01:32:26) kids alone they're completely 10 out of (01:32:28) 10 disregulated and then they basically (01:32:30) learn see I really am as bad and toxic (01:32:32) as I worried I was and we see this all (01:32:34) the time in adulthood yeah act itself (01:32:36) out this is a good example of what came (01:32:38) from this most amazing adult I worked (01:32:41) with forever and we went back to this (01:32:43) moment in her childhood work again she'd (01:32:45) be in her room because these kids would (01:32:46) be in the room and they're out of (01:32:47) control screaming at a parent like get (01:32:50) out and kids are oriented by attachment (01:32:52) which is a system of proximity so when (01:32:55) they say get out not calmly we all say (01:32:57) get out someone's like sure I'll get out (01:32:58) but they're like not in a place to be (01:33:00) making a decision what they're really (01:33:01) saying is I'm so terrified I'm going to (01:33:02) terrify you and I'm so terrified (01:33:04) therefore I'm bad because if I terrify (01:33:06) you so much that you can't even be near (01:33:08) me I'm a vulnerable kid that basically (01:33:10) means I'm not going to survive cuz I (01:33:12) need your attachment to (01:33:13) survive and I remember going through (01:33:15) like what she needed in that moment and (01:33:17) I remember kind of going through this (01:33:18) visual of this wise adult being in her (01:33:21) room with her staying even though she's (01:33:23) screaming (01:33:24) get out cuz I always say with deeply (01:33:26) feeling kids when they're in that 10 out (01:33:27) of 10 State their words are not their (01:33:30) wishes they're their fears honestly all (01:33:32) of us most of us that's a really (01:33:35) interesting reframe can you say that one (01:33:36) more time when we're completely out of (01:33:38) control and overwhelmed and we scream (01:33:40) things out in that state our words are (01:33:42) not our wishes our words are our fears (01:33:45) mhm and I think even the visual if you (01:33:48) have a kid like this what they're (01:33:49) screaming they're actually screaming to (01:33:51) their feelings not to you get out leave (01:33:54) leave me (01:33:55) alone I have the chill is like they're (01:33:57) not talking to a parent they're talking (01:33:58) to these like terrifying Sensations in (01:34:00) their body so we went through this this (01:34:02) Visual and I'm in the room kind of like (01:34:05) visually with you're doing this with (01:34:06) your client this is an adult exactly (01:34:08) this is what help me so much with deeply (01:34:10) feeling kids one of the things I'm just (01:34:11) giving you one example and I was like (01:34:13) okay so I don't remember if it was her (01:34:15) mom or just some sturdy adult who wasn't (01:34:19) seeming scared of her I said so she's (01:34:20) standing at the door with you and I (01:34:22) remember this woman saying she's not (01:34:24) standing she has to be (01:34:27) sitting and I kind of explored that in (01:34:29) the imagery and she was if she's (01:34:31) standing I I just believe she's about to (01:34:35) leave I don't believe she's committed to (01:34:37) this so she was sitting at the door and (01:34:40) I'm like okay so she's sitting at the (01:34:41) door and this goes into so much more (01:34:43) about deeply feeling kids but in these (01:34:44) moments they need containment they (01:34:45) literally need to be with you in a (01:34:47) smaller space because they're so fearful (01:34:49) of how their feelings come out of them (01:34:50) and take up all the space that they need (01:34:52) to essentially have us hold space with (01:34:54) them like your feelings only go this far (01:34:56) and I'm sitting with you at the door (01:34:58) because I'm I would never let you kill (01:35:00) both of us so my sitting here with you (01:35:02) is almost a way of saying you are not so (01:35:04) bad and awful and toxic after all and if (01:35:06) I cannot be scared of this one day you (01:35:08) will not and (01:35:10) every [ __ ] (01:35:12) time when you do this and it's more (01:35:14) details and just this your kid will end (01:35:16) by crawling over to you like a dog and (01:35:19) coming into your lap for a hug because (01:35:22) that's exactly what they need but that (01:35:24) idea that you can't even be standing I (01:35:25) kind of knew in these moments she was (01:35:27) screaming get out I was like you're not (01:35:30) in a place to be making good decisions (01:35:32) for yourself it would be like if my kid (01:35:33) was trying to cross New York City street (01:35:35) completely out of control like don't (01:35:37) hold my hand like yeah your words are (01:35:40) not like I'm not you're about to die in (01:35:42) ourc coming traffic like there's (01:35:43) something deeper I'm going to hold you (01:35:45) and I knew I had to be in the room but I (01:35:47) remember as soon as my client told me (01:35:49) this thing about sitting (01:35:51) down I remember with my own daughter and (01:35:53) talking to clients I had all these (01:35:54) clients at the time who had these kids (01:35:56) cuz I was kind of getting these (01:35:57) referrals from these kids labeled as (01:35:59) Oppositional Defiant Disorder difficult (01:36:02) traumatic all of these diagnoses I was (01:36:04) like Wow Oppositional Defiant Disorder (01:36:07) you cannot like a child who you label as (01:36:09) Oppositional Defiant yeah and we were (01:36:11) all trying these things and everyone at (01:36:12) the same time was like the sitting down (01:36:15) and kind of imagining yourself in this (01:36:17) just really sturdy way it shortened the (01:36:20) Meltdown by like 90% right and again (01:36:23) that it came directly from my work with (01:36:26) I think so many of my best interventions (01:36:28) come from actually the work I did with (01:36:30) adults understanding what adults needed (01:36:33) and kind of when they were kids and (01:36:34) reverse engineering that to today's (01:36:36) parents fascinating example and I can (01:36:40) Envision it I can see it working I mean (01:36:42) I I suppose I've used different words (01:36:45) for it but a friend of mine recently (01:36:46) recommended a book to me which was (01:36:49) something like the highly sensitive (01:36:51) person or something like that because (01:36:52) what I say to people from myself and I (01:36:54) was like this is a kid too I like my (01:36:56) senses are very very sensitive mhm very (01:36:59) porous (01:37:01) and it can be incredibly overwhelming (01:37:04) sometimes and I've become better (01:37:07) at using that and managing it but as a (01:37:11) kid I mean forget about it different (01:37:13) story well you're probably what I would (01:37:15) say is a is a deeply feeling kid mine (01:37:16) too and I say to her you're a super (01:37:19) sensor because with these kids I live in (01:37:22) New York City that MH and we'd be (01:37:24) getting near the garage where we park (01:37:25) our car and she would not want to go (01:37:27) into the garage like the smells of even (01:37:29) near the garage it's so easy as a parent (01:37:32) to say something to a kid like you're so (01:37:34) crazy what are you talking about it (01:37:36) doesn't smell any different outside (01:37:38) here and if you think about what you're (01:37:40) really doing is you're saying to a kid I (01:37:44) know how you feel better than you know (01:37:47) how you feel now again the boundaries (01:37:49) matter might there be a time especially (01:37:51) when she was younger would say I get it (01:37:52) you smell it it's awful you smell things (01:37:54) I don't smell and I'm picking you up I (01:37:57) have to carry you in the garage that's (01:37:59) independent from my action yeah but (01:38:01) again when we can't separate those two (01:38:03) we usually say super invalidating things (01:38:05) to dfk we tell them they're dramatic we (01:38:08) tell them they're making a big deal out (01:38:10) of nothing a principle of all human (01:38:12) behavior is we all need to be believed (01:38:15) and so if you don't get believed you (01:38:16) escalate the expression of your behavior (01:38:18) in desperation to be believed then (01:38:19) usually people lead with more (01:38:20) invalidation which means you escalate (01:38:22) Behavior further to try to get the (01:38:24) original thing you were looking for and (01:38:26) with deeply feeling kids and parents (01:38:28) that's a cycle we really reverse yeah (01:38:31) wow yeah trip down memory lane that's (01:38:34) wild send the send do the workshop yeah (01:38:36) we have a lot of adults do it separate (01:38:38) from their kids it's all the same stuff (01:38:40) yeah it is all the same stuff if you (01:38:42) could put metaphorically speaking a (01:38:45) message on a billboard could be a quote (01:38:47) could be an image anything (01:38:49) non-commercial just something to get out (01:38:52) to very large number of people could be (01:38:55) a reminder a request (01:38:58) anything Mantra that you find useful (01:39:02) anything at all what might you put can I (01:39:04) pick more than one of course not on the (01:39:06) same billboard I don't know about The (01:39:07) Branding of all them at once but I I (01:39:09) have too many I have too many things so (01:39:11) yeah yeah you can definitely have a (01:39:12) couple okay so I'm going to start with (01:39:15) one that's probably most linked to our (01:39:16) conversation so far just my ultimate (01:39:19) Mantra this feels hard because it is (01:39:21) hard not because I'm doing something (01:39:23) wrong M and again to me the idea that we (01:39:26) struggle and it doesn't mean it's our (01:39:28) fault is lifechanging I put that I (01:39:31) remember during Co when my kids were (01:39:32) doing work and like work from home you (01:39:34) know when they were like in school at (01:39:35) home that was the thing I put on their (01:39:37) desks and I think when you're talking (01:39:39) about kids working on math or learning (01:39:40) how to read doing a puzzle or doing (01:39:42) something at work or managing your first (01:39:44) conflict in your romantic relationship (01:39:46) you put on their desk like a placard or (01:39:48) like a little dry RIS board or little (01:39:50) Post-It note I took a Post-It note and (01:39:52) wrote it messily into just put it up (01:39:54) there and say it one more time this (01:39:55) feels hard because it is hard not (01:39:57) because I'm doing something (01:39:59) wrong the difference between (01:40:01) understanding something's hard because (01:40:02) it is versus thinking it's hard because (01:40:05) basically you failed has massive life (01:40:07) implications on what we'd be willing to (01:40:09) take on next as a challenge like yeah (01:40:11) that's just a hard math problem if it (01:40:12) feels hard that's because you're doing (01:40:13) it right because it's supposed to be (01:40:15) hard oh I'm doing it right versus I'm (01:40:17) not good at math I mean it's just (01:40:18) remarkable especially academically when (01:40:20) kids are young how that how powerful (01:40:21) that is if I could put something (01:40:23) different on a b or if I have like (01:40:25) you're going to you're sponsoring many (01:40:26) branding campaign budget okay it would (01:40:30) be one of two things this is like (01:40:32) different versions of a similar (01:40:34) idea parenting doesn't come naturally (01:40:37) the only thing that comes naturally is (01:40:38) how you were (01:40:39) parented or we were never meant to (01:40:42) parent an instinct alone the whole idea (01:40:45) of maternal Instinct has had a profound (01:40:46) impact on parents profound and awful and (01:40:50) it's not to say I don't think there's (01:40:51) some Instinct in us obviously I get that (01:40:53) but (01:40:54) it would be like a doctor saying I (01:40:57) didn't go to medical school I have (01:40:58) surgical Instinct I surgical Instinct (01:41:00) and you're like yeah I'm just not going (01:41:01) to see you and if your friend said that (01:41:03) yeah it's going to be a hard pass right (01:41:05) it's a hard (01:41:06) pass and it's just so interesting that I (01:41:09) think we take learning seriously at (01:41:12) every point in our lives and then we get (01:41:15) the job that's the hardest and most (01:41:17) ongoing and most important job we'll (01:41:20) ever (01:41:21) have and we're social Iz to think we're (01:41:24) supposed to be learning before I'll take (01:41:26) a CPR class a pregnancy class and then (01:41:29) once your baby's like one The Narrative (01:41:32) I hear from parents we hear this (01:41:34) honestly cuz that good inside I think (01:41:36) way more than trying to help you through (01:41:38) a tantrum or trying to elevate parenting (01:41:41) parenting deserves education because (01:41:44) that's a good compliment with Instinct (01:41:45) like there are things to learn doesn't (01:41:47) come naturally and I really we have moms (01:41:50) especially all the time say I just I I (01:41:53) feel like it's a sign of a failure M (01:41:56) which to me I just don't know anyone who (01:41:58) goes to medical school and says oh I (01:42:00) have to go to medical school to become a (01:42:02) doctor unlike my friend who I don't know (01:42:04) has a surgical Instinct has a surgical (01:42:06) instinct or I get my surgical tips on (01:42:08) Instagram and I think that's enough you (01:42:10) would say to a doctor yeah that's cool (01:42:12) you want to stay up to dat and some tips (01:42:14) but you probably need a (01:42:16) foundation and I think this goes back to (01:42:19) fault you know where it goes back to how (01:42:21) When we struggle especially as women we (01:42:23) tend to think it's our fault instead of (01:42:25) maybe something more useful like a (01:42:27) little bit of Anger of like wow the (01:42:29) system is pretty stacked against me like (01:42:30) nobody is setting me up to have Clarity (01:42:33) in my job to know what to do and to (01:42:36) actually feel res resourced and (01:42:38) supported and then I think we'd find (01:42:40) parenting hard but we wouldn't find it (01:42:43) as impossible as we find it today you (01:42:45) said one of two things what was was (01:42:47) there another very oh just some version (01:42:49) of I think part of me I I like to be (01:42:52) Punchy if I was going to put something (01:42:53) on a bill board I wanted to create you (01:42:54) know a conversation so maybe I'd say (01:42:57) something like there's no such thing as (01:42:58) maternal Instinct not because I even (01:43:00) fully believe that but just to start a (01:43:03) conversation on the limitations of that (01:43:06) framework and I think the massive amount (01:43:09) of Shame it's created especially for (01:43:12) women and shame leads to an Animal (01:43:15) Defense freeze State freeze you don't (01:43:18) act so what's kind of amazing and [ __ ] (01:43:21) up is if you can convince women that (01:43:23) they should be be able to parent on (01:43:24) maternal Instinct alone it's just a (01:43:26) great way of kind of ensuring moms (01:43:29) forever feel really bad about themselves (01:43:31) and don't talk about it yeah that (01:43:33) resonates I mean look what do I know I (01:43:35) don't have kids but just what I've seen (01:43:36) with friends is there seems to be (01:43:39) certainly there are like matern there (01:43:41) are maternal instincts for sure right (01:43:44) just like some people may be better (01:43:46) suited to empathy and bedside manner as (01:43:49) a surgeon but you also want them to go (01:43:51) to med school yeah two things are true (01:43:53) right two things are true and what I've (01:43:56) seen amongst because there are all these (01:43:58) battles in the parenting discussions (01:44:01) right there's like the the attachment (01:44:04) parenting versus the sleep training (01:44:06) versus and man oh man these get intense (01:44:09) and you know I'm watching some of these (01:44:11) things because I'm curious but if one of (01:44:15) the stories that sometimes pops up is (01:44:19) related to mothering IND different let's (01:44:22) just say for Simplicity indigenous (01:44:24) cultures (01:44:26) and what gets lost there is (01:44:30) overemphasized is the Instinct and what (01:44:33) that (01:44:33) means and what you can rely on what gets (01:44:36) a little lost is societally as you said (01:44:40) how for a lot of women in industrialized (01:44:44) Western cities let's just say or (01:44:47) westernized cities or certainly Coastal (01:44:49) us in a lot of (01:44:51) places in those societies have spent (01:44:54) time in Ethiopia and all over South (01:44:56) America and so on it's like from a very (01:44:58) young age they are being taught how to (01:45:01) take care of kids in whatever way makes (01:45:04) sense culturally in that context but (01:45:05) it's like from a very young age like (01:45:07) they're getting training that's like (01:45:09) being born into like jro Dreams of Sushi (01:45:11) and it's like all right you're going to (01:45:12) start with washing the Bots I mean like (01:45:14) from a very very early age they're being (01:45:17) taught and getting a lot of practice (01:45:20) which is just simply not the case for a (01:45:23) lot of women these days so it would seem (01:45:27) to make a lot of sense that they need to (01:45:29) have the opportunity to be resourced as (01:45:33) you said yeah and I think the resources (01:45:35) again that I always want for parents (01:45:37) extend so beyond just your interactions (01:45:39) with your kids like learning to set real (01:45:42) boundaries is lifegiving like in every (01:45:45) area of your life and I think that's why (01:45:46) when people are kind of involved in the (01:45:49) good inside system for a while like when (01:45:51) we interview users it's interesting (01:45:53) after a little while they say oh I asked (01:45:55) for a raise for the first time my (01:45:57) girlfriend from college always go away (01:45:59) and honestly my partner always gives me (01:46:00) a hard time every year and so I don't (01:46:02) ever go and for the first time I (01:46:04) realized wait Dr Becky like you said (01:46:06) those are my partner's feelings I can (01:46:09) care about them but I don't have to take (01:46:11) care of them meaning my partner can be (01:46:12) upset and I can go on my trip right and (01:46:15) then we always say like what about those (01:46:16) Tantrums remember how you came and they (01:46:18) were like oh is that why I came in right (01:46:19) so I think what I want for parents and (01:46:21) what i' want the billboard (01:46:24) are the gayway truck they are kind of (01:46:26) you know we come our kids problems (01:46:29) they're really a signal that probably (01:46:33) there are so many opportunities for us (01:46:34) to learn things that are yes going to (01:46:36) help them but are going to end up (01:46:37) helping us even more and I think that's (01:46:40) like I want for parents really to feel (01:46:44) like they do more than just put out the (01:46:46) latest fire in their home so you are and (01:46:49) I love this about you well known as I (01:46:51) mentioned for your specific scripts your (01:46:55) word for word scripts even though the (01:46:58) intention is to use them to highlight (01:47:00) principles I understand that what are (01:47:02) your most requested the fan favorites (01:47:07) most requested as far as scripts I think (01:47:10) what do I do when my kids having a (01:47:11) meltdown that like I just totally don't (01:47:13) understand so what do I do when my kids (01:47:15) freaking out about something I don't (01:47:16) understand anything about boundaries and (01:47:18) saying no mhm (01:47:21) right how do I say no to someone on (01:47:23) without feeling guilty how do I say no (01:47:26) you know to my in-laws when they keep (01:47:28) popping over so anything about saying no (01:47:30) and boundaries and repair repair yeah I (01:47:34) feel really stuck and I just I can't get (01:47:36) myself to go to my kids's room and say (01:47:38) the thing and yeah I always feel like a (01:47:40) script is like a door opening sometimes (01:47:42) we need someone to open the door for us (01:47:44) and then when you get in the room you're (01:47:45) like okay I can do this but that's kind (01:47:46) of what a script can give what specific (01:47:49) boundary setting or saying no like (01:47:52) within that (01:47:54) subcategory what are the things that (01:47:56) tend to come up the most honestly almost (01:47:58) always when I'm asked a question my (01:48:00) answer is almost always reframing the (01:48:03) question how do I say no without someone (01:48:05) getting upset I mean this with love it's (01:48:06) just a bad question it's a bad question (01:48:08) it's an impossible question how do I say (01:48:10) no and tolerate someone being upset is a (01:48:11) great question love that question so (01:48:14) I'll shift to that usually when we feel (01:48:15) stuck in life it's because we're asking (01:48:17) the wrong questions right not cuz we (01:48:18) don't have you can get also get a great (01:48:21) answer to the wrong question and that (01:48:22) can lead astray right I was like (01:48:24) questions are roads you walk down mhm to (01:48:27) make sure that the road it's like the (01:48:29) destination you want to end in not kind (01:48:30) of a cliff or something unproductive and (01:48:33) I'll share some of them here just (01:48:34) because some of them are going to put (01:48:35) out there so how do I say no right again (01:48:38) I think saying no well really comes from (01:48:42) knowing your why and really being (01:48:44) grounded more in your experience than (01:48:46) the other person's the reason it's hard (01:48:48) for someone to say no is cuz they've (01:48:50) actually already vacated their body and (01:48:51) if it's me say you know here we are on (01:48:54) Monday but let's say you ask me hey can (01:48:56) you do Monday at 3:30 I'm like I really (01:48:57) can't for whatever reason oh my God what (01:48:59) is Tim going to think about me and is (01:49:00) Tim going to be really upset what am I (01:49:02) going to say when Tim says that that's (01:49:03) the only time and you can't say no from (01:49:06) that place because your no and setting a (01:49:08) boundary comes from your place of (01:49:09) authority and if I vacated my body and (01:49:12) I'm now spending all my time in Tim's (01:49:13) head right you lost yourself in your (01:49:16) fantasy of you've lost your and your (01:49:17) fantasy exactly Tim's probably like why (01:49:19) are you spending so much time in my head (01:49:21) I would have just figured it out with (01:49:22) you that's that's that's what we do so I (01:49:24) think step one is actually coming back (01:49:25) to ourselves like why am I saying no (01:49:26) okay I'm I'm saying no because I don't (01:49:28) know I have to pick up my kids from (01:49:30) school or whatever it is right it (01:49:32) actually becomes a lot more self-evident (01:49:34) I'm not able to make that time because (01:49:36) whatever the reason is and then I think (01:49:38) one of the best thing with scripts when (01:49:40) you're saying no naming your intention (01:49:43) naming it not just thinking it is really (01:49:46) helpful in communication I'm really (01:49:49) excited about recording I am unable to (01:49:52) do this I would love to find another (01:49:53) time right making it really really (01:49:56) obvious what your intention is really (01:49:57) does get in a helpful way it prevents (01:49:59) someone else from misinterpreting it (01:50:01) from you thinking oh Becky just doesn't (01:50:03) want to be in my podcast and it also (01:50:05) makes me feel sturdier because I'm kind (01:50:07) of connecting to you along the way one (01:50:09) of the ways to think about boundaries (01:50:11) and how to actually set them because (01:50:12) there's a lot of people who are like I (01:50:13) know I want to set them but it's the (01:50:14) holding and I just feel so uncomfortable (01:50:16) and my mom's mad at me or my kids mad at (01:50:18) me okay so right now we're sitting on (01:50:20) opposite sides of the table but imagine (01:50:22) we're on a tennis Court okay we're I'm (01:50:24) on one one side of the Court behind the (01:50:26) Baseline and you're on the other side (01:50:28) but instead of a net I don't know (01:50:29) there's like a glass wall so like I (01:50:31) could see you but whatever happens on (01:50:33) your side would stay on your side Okay (01:50:36) the reason boundaries become hard to (01:50:38) hold because I'm on my side setting a (01:50:41) boundary so maybe it's saying to my mom (01:50:43) oh you want to come over to see the kids (01:50:45) it doesn't work for us we have to find (01:50:46) another day right or maybe it's saying (01:50:48) to my kids oh TV time is over or no (01:50:51) sweetie I we're here to buy a birthday (01:50:53) present for your cousin but I'm not (01:50:54) going to buy anything else you know you (01:50:56) see that thing you want that's my (01:50:57) boundary and on your side is your (01:51:00) feelings so if you're my mom you're (01:51:03) upset and maybe your version of upset is (01:51:05) guilting me who knows right and maybe if (01:51:08) you're my kid in the toy store you're (01:51:09) upset probably your version is screaming (01:51:11) meltdown or who knows what it is (01:51:13) right what we say to ourselves all the (01:51:15) time is I can't set boundaries I feel so (01:51:19) guilty right okay in my mind guilt is a (01:51:22) Feeling you have when you're acting out (01:51:25) of alignment with your values that's why (01:51:28) guilt is useful if I yelled at a taxi on (01:51:30) the way home tonight I would feel guilty (01:51:33) because that's not in my values to yell (01:51:35) at anyone definitely not someone trying (01:51:37) to help me that guilt would make me (01:51:39) reflect huh I wonder why I yelled what (01:51:40) could I have done differently useful but (01:51:42) it's interesting when people say I set a (01:51:44) boundary with my mom because I just need (01:51:46) the alone family time but I feel guilty (01:51:49) I said no to my kid because I don't want (01:51:50) to buy them everything at a toy store (01:51:51) and I feel guilty it's not guilt it's (01:51:53) sex life-changing it's not guilt because (01:51:57) you're acting in alignment with your (01:52:00) values so then b a question what is it (01:52:02) it's our tendency to see other people's (01:52:05) distress on their side of the tennis (01:52:07) court and this usually happens in (01:52:09) childhood we learn we kind of say I will (01:52:12) take that for you I will take your upset (01:52:16) and bring it to my body and put it in my (01:52:18) body to kind of metabolize it for you (01:52:21) and I will call it guilt but it's not (01:52:24) guilt it is someone else's feelings that (01:52:27) you're feeling for them and not only is (01:52:30) that not good for you it's actually (01:52:31) awful for the other person because if (01:52:33) you metabolize let's say your kids (01:52:35) feelings for them they never learn to (01:52:36) deal with the stress you can also never (01:52:38) empathize because the only reason I can (01:52:41) empathize is if I actually see your (01:52:43) feelings as yours so I actually have to (01:52:45) when I do this exercise this Workshop or (01:52:47) I'll say to someone you have to give (01:52:48) that feeling back to its rightful owner (01:52:50) let's say I take my kid to a toy store (01:52:52) and I say to my friend I really do want (01:52:54) to say no to them but but I have the (01:52:56) money and I feel so guilty and even (01:52:58) though I want to say no okay but now (01:53:00) maybe it's not kill how do I deal with (01:53:02) that what happens is you're on one side (01:53:04) of the tennis court and they your kids (01:53:07) frustration distress kind of starts to (01:53:10) come over and instead of going and (01:53:13) hitting against the glass wall and going (01:53:14) back to them which by the way is what (01:53:16) you want you need people's feelings to (01:53:18) say on their side of the Court mhm it (01:53:21) kind of comes over to me m I'm like I (01:53:23) can't what you have to do is actually (01:53:24) almost put your hands up and like push (01:53:26) it back and actually the visual is (01:53:27) powerful that's my kids's feeling or my (01:53:30) mom is upset she can't come over if I (01:53:32) actually think about it that makes sense (01:53:34) I'm allowed to say no and they're (01:53:36) allowed to be upset is like a great life (01:53:38) mattra they're equally true no one's a (01:53:41) bad person my mom is not a bad person (01:53:44) for feeling upset that she can't see her (01:53:46) grandkid I am not a bad person for (01:53:49) saying the time doesn't work for me (01:53:51) those two things just happen not to kind (01:53:54) of be in line with each other so I have (01:53:56) to hold them at the same time they're (01:53:58) both true neither is wrong and neither (01:54:01) is more true than the other and if you (01:54:03) see your mom's feelings as real (01:54:05) ironically now you could actually (01:54:07) empathize with her because as long as (01:54:09) you're taking on the feelings you can't (01:54:10) empathize you're responding to your mom (01:54:12) to take care of your own feelings that (01:54:13) weren't yours you're putting yourself in (01:54:15) the washing machine as opposed to (01:54:17) looking through the glass 100% at what's (01:54:19) inside the washing ma that's right and (01:54:20) so holding boundaries you get better (01:54:22) when you picture that tenants court and (01:54:24) you start to ask yourself am I really (01:54:25) feeling guilt it's probably not can I (01:54:27) give that person's feelings back and (01:54:29) then empathy actually helps you hold a (01:54:31) boundary h i get it Mom you wish you (01:54:33) could come over I know I'd be upset if (01:54:35) you were if I were you too oh does that (01:54:36) mean I can come over no it doesn't I'm (01:54:38) just saying I understand right and then (01:54:40) that's how so that visual I think is (01:54:42) powerful tennis court we have just a few (01:54:45) minutes until our time yeah (01:54:49) and I thought I would just open the (01:54:51) floor to ask you if there are any things (01:54:55) we didn't touch upon that you'd like to (01:54:57) mention if there are any requests of my (01:55:00) audience my (01:55:01) listeners any reminders closing thoughts (01:55:04) anything at all that you'd like to add (01:55:07) and people can certainly find good (01:55:09) inside atg good (01:55:10) inside.com and we'll link to all your (01:55:12) socials as well Instagram Dr BeckyG good (01:55:16) inside I believe mhm and we'll put all (01:55:18) these in the show notes of course the (01:55:20) book good inside a Guide to Becoming the (01:55:22) parent you want want to be we'll link to (01:55:24) the Ted Talk we will link to all the (01:55:27) goodies in the show notes but is there (01:55:28) anything else that you'd like to mention (01:55:31) no I mean I think that I (01:55:35) find learning and (01:55:37) reflection to be really such a brave (01:55:40) Endeavor I really really do (01:55:42) because if you're thinking about (01:55:44) yourself or thinking about why we do the (01:55:47) things the way we do or oh maybe I do (01:55:49) want to intervene differently like (01:55:50) there's probably someone at this point (01:55:52) saying (01:55:53) maybe my kid is a deeply feeling kid (01:55:54) like should I go learn more about that (01:55:56) and I feel like that's very brave (01:55:58) because to do that you're going to be (01:56:00) confronted by feelings of like oh shoot (01:56:03) I going to do that and we all have (01:56:05) wondering questions of did I mess my kid (01:56:07) up which you didn't but we wonder it and (01:56:09) then we feel upset and then to kind of (01:56:12) push forward and say like okay I'm going (01:56:14) to tolerate those feelings in the (01:56:16) pursuit of finding something that's (01:56:19) going to end up feeling better to me I (01:56:21) just find I find it very admir (01:56:23) and increasingly hard to do in today's (01:56:26) world you know we're all oriented around (01:56:28) short-term convenience and gratification (01:56:30) and so for anyone listening at this (01:56:32) point I really I just want to say thank (01:56:34) you I want to say you know there's (01:56:36) probably a lot of Tolerance of (01:56:37) uncomfortable emotions along the way (01:56:38) there's there's no one we care about in (01:56:40) the world in the way that we care about (01:56:41) our kids we're so invested in it so (01:56:43) thinking about getting support thinking (01:56:46) about taking a workshop or getting a (01:56:47) resource on some level it seems like (01:56:50) well yeah it's the person I care the (01:56:51) most about I'm going to do that but (01:56:52) there is is this pull away of like ooh I (01:56:54) I don't know if I want to look at (01:56:55) something and so the people who are (01:56:57) willing to do that I just think that's (01:56:59) like my type of people and I love people (01:57:01) who are who can do hard things so I want (01:57:03) to say thank you and then the thing I (01:57:05) want to hold right next to that is (01:57:06) everything I said today and I should (01:57:07) have said this in the (01:57:09) beginning I myself definitely do not do (01:57:12) 100% of the time as a parent and it (01:57:14) really matters to me that people know (01:57:16) that number one just cuz it's true and I (01:57:18) don't want to misrepresent (01:57:20) myself but there's no perfect parent (01:57:23) kids don't need a perfect parent that (01:57:24) would again be weird if we set our kid (01:57:27) to think that their most important (01:57:29) relationships down the road are going to (01:57:30) be with people who are always perfectly (01:57:32) attuned to their every feeling and need (01:57:34) that would be very (01:57:35) counterproductive and so again maybe we (01:57:38) end with what we begin with is the most (01:57:41) powerful relationship strategy I believe (01:57:43) we have in any relationship is repair (01:57:45) it's our willingness to go back to take (01:57:47) responsibility to say hey I wish I (01:57:49) handled that differently to then (01:57:50) hopefully actually do a little bit of (01:57:52) like the inv tigation or resourcing we (01:57:54) need to actually do it (01:57:56) differently but I I want to leave (01:57:57) parents or any listener with that (01:57:59) there's nothing more powerful than (01:58:01) repair there's nothing more important to (01:58:03) get good at as repair which also means (01:58:05) you have to mess up because the only way (01:58:07) you can repair is if you did mess up and (01:58:10) so I just want to leave people with that (01:58:13) more kind of balanced human note because (01:58:15) that's the thing I usually hold on to (01:58:17) myself and for people who are curious (01:58:20) they want to explore the world world of (01:58:23) good inside and Dr Becky (01:58:26) Kennedy where would you suggest they (01:58:28) start in terms of like dipping a toe in (01:58:30) the water let's just for the purpose of (01:58:33) applying some constraints right somebody (01:58:35) who doesn't maybe they don't have the (01:58:37) ability or the financial resources to go (01:58:39) to like an extended Workshop or (01:58:40) something like that yeah where might (01:58:42) they start let say go to your local (01:58:44) library and kind of request the book if (01:58:47) it's not you know in definitely get on (01:58:49) the request list for good inside I would (01:58:51) say come to good inside.com and sign up (01:58:53) for our emails I'm bursting with new (01:58:54) thoughts all the time and I always need (01:58:56) containers for them so one (01:58:58) container is you know our email or kind (01:59:01) of weekly thoughts for me on Thursdays I (01:59:03) send out Instagram my own podcast sorry (01:59:06) I should say I'm on a podcast Now (01:59:07) podcast listeners usually listen to (01:59:09) other podcasts so maybe that's best it's (01:59:11) just called good inside we try to keep (01:59:13) it simple and good inside.com is kind of (01:59:15) the home for everything we do and then I (01:59:17) would say if your kid is you know I love (01:59:19) to help people whose kids aren't just (01:59:21) struggling it's kind of like waiting to (01:59:22) to marriage counseling until you're like (01:59:24) in a problem it's never the best but a (01:59:26) lot of us wait I really think of our (01:59:29) resources inside our app as you know (01:59:33) about your kids and your own emotional (01:59:34) wellness and we try to we have I think (01:59:36) we make that very (01:59:38) accessible you know compared to other (01:59:40) emotional Wellness Resources so that's (01:59:42) there too well folks there you have it (01:59:45) that is how you wait into the waters and (01:59:48) I'm so happy we could have this (01:59:49) conversation thank you for taking the (01:59:50) time thank you this was awesome took a (01:59:52) lot of notes for myself also right best (01:59:56) to be prepared might take a little while (01:59:58) for me to get the kiddos online but that (02:00:01) is the plan and I really appreciate what (02:00:06) you are teaching these toolkits are (02:00:08) incredibly powerful and as we have (02:00:12) mentioned and alluded to multiple times (02:00:15) in this conversation you can apply these (02:00:18) things (02:00:19) everywhere it is not limited (02:00:22) to your interactions with your kids and (02:00:26) to everybody listening thanks for (02:00:28) sticking around thanks for tuning in and (02:00:30) as always (02:00:32) be just a bit Kinder than is necessary (02:00:36) until next time that includes other (02:00:38) people but that also includes yourself (02:00:41) and for links to everything we discussed (02:00:43) you can find them in the show notes tim. (02:00:45) Blog (02:00:47) podcast (02:00:48) and I'll repeat myself but thanks for (02:00:52) tuning in till next time take care